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October 23, 2008

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2008-Oct-23 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 23 October 2008 Jeudi 23 octobre 2008

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO ECONOMY /

ÉCONOMIE DE L'ONTARIO

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

ONTARIO ECONOMY

VISITOR

ONTARIO ECONOMY

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

POVERTY

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

NURSES

CHILD CARE

RENEWABLE ENERGY

SMALL BUSINESS

HUMAN RIGHTS

UNIVERSITY RESEARCH

AND INNOVATION

INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM FUNDING

PUBLIC HEALTH

VISITOR

DEFERRED VOTES

APOLOGY ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR

LA PRÉSENTATION D'EXCUSES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS

CHILD CARE

HERBERT WILLIAMS FIRE EQUIPMENT

ONTARIO ECONOMY

BEAUTIFUL WOMEN PROJECT

COMMUNITY CLEANUP

LONG-TERM CARE

WASTE REDUCTION WEEK

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

CORONERS AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 MODIFIANT

LA

LOI SUR LES CORONERS

PENSION BENEFITS AMENDMENT ACT

(UNLOCKING PENSION FUNDS), 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LES RÉGIMES DE RETRAITE

(DÉBLOCAGE DES FONDS DE RETRAITE)

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

CORONER'S OFFICE

NATIONAL FOSTER FAMILY WEEK /

SEMAINE NATIONALE

DES FAMILLES D'ACCUEIL

NATIONAL FOSTER FAMILY WEEK

CORONER'S OFFICE

CORONER'S OFFICE

NATIONAL FOSTER FAMILY WEEK

PETITIONS

PROTECTION FOR MINERS

HOSPITAL FUNDING

CHILD PROTECTION

HOSPITAL SERVICES

TUITION

HOSPITAL FUNDING

HOSPITAL SERVICES

IDENTITY THEFT

BEER RETAILING AND DISTRIBUTION

HOSPITAL FUNDING

HIGHWAY 35

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION

OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

OPPOSITION DAY MOTION

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

SENIORS' OMBUDSMAN ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR L'OMBUDSMAN

DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

REPRESENTATION AMENDMENT

ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA REPRÉSENTATION ÉLECTORALE

REGISTERED RETIREMENT SAVINGS

PROTECTION ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES RÉGIMES ENREGISTRÉS D'ÉPARGNE

EN VUE DE LA RETRAITE

SENIORS' OMBUDSMAN ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR L'OMBUDSMAN

DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

REPRESENTATION AMENDMENT

ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA REPRÉSENTATION ÉLECTORALE

REGISTERED RETIREMENT SAVINGS

PROTECTION ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES RÉGIMES ENREGISTRÉS D'ÉPARGNE

EN VUE DE LA RETRAITE

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by a Jewish prayer.

Prayers.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: We have a page who is celebrating her birthday today. Chloe, judging from the twinkle in her eye, gets full measure from life. Happy birthday, Chloe.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): As the member knows, that's not a point of order, but happy birthday, Chloe.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO ECONOMY /

ÉCONOMIE DE L'ONTARIO

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 22, 2008, on the amendment to the amendment to the motion by Mr. McGuinty to acknowledge the economic challenges facing the province and continuing to implement an economic plan.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Further debate?

Mrs.

Elizabeth Witmer: I guess today we have all come to the realization that this government's tax-and-spend policies have contributed to a situation where this once great, mighty province, which used to be the economic engine of Canada, now finds itself in a situation where we have not only seen the loss of a quarter of a million jobs but we're now finding ourselves in a deficit situation–a deficit situation which had been predicted, which people did see coming—based on the fact that this province and its leaders, Premier McGuinty and the finance minister, have continued to spend like drunken sailors and have refused to manage in a responsible way the hard-earned taxes that they take from corporations and from the citizens of this province.

I've seen this once before. I saw it when we had Premier Peterson here and when we had Bob Rae. This once great province at that time went from leadership into economic decline despite the efforts of individuals and entrepreneurs. We're certainly heading down that same slippery fiscal slope of decline one more time, simply because this Premier and this government can't say no to the demands. They've never learned to manage taxpayers' money. They've never learned to prioritize.

It was disappointing yesterday to see that they hadn't achieved any savings other than on the back of health care professionals and patients in this province. They decided that they were going to reduce the amount of money that had been allocated to hire 9,000 more nurses. They were going to slow the introduction of the family health teams in the province of Ontario—this at a time when we have an aging and a growing population, a population that is desperately searching for family doctors. There isn't a place you go in the province of Ontario where there aren't people who are looking for access to primary care.

That's why the decision yesterday by this government to make savings on the backs of patients was shocking—shocking to people throughout the province of Ontario, who feel further demoralized about their ability to have the access to care that they've been so desperately looking for. And then, to cut nursing—unbelievable. We have a desperate need for nurses in our long-term-care facilities. In fact, we don't have enough long-term-care beds in the province. We don't have doctors to meet the needs of those residents in the long-term-care beds. We don't have the nurses.

Some of the homes simply can't find the staff to help the residents. And we're saying we're going to cut nurses further. Primary care—we need the nurses. Hospitals—we need the nurses. We have overcrowding. We have long wait times in our emergency rooms. Surgeries are being cancelled because we don't have the staff.

This government and its decision yesterday to achieve savings—limited savings, $53 million worth of savings—on the backs of people, patients in the province of Ontario, is simply unbelievable, at a time when we need the most. You are now increasingly putting patient health and safety at risk. This has widespread consequences. Furthermore, yesterday you came out with a statement that indicated that you had made no effort whatsoever to stop your spending, whether it's for a party at the Windsor casino or whether it's cabinet ministers who choose to have meetings not in the buildings here, where the rent is free, but to go to expensive hotels and pay for food.

So we now find ourselves in a deficit—a deficit, by the way, that you're saying is only $500 million, but a deficit that you know full well is much, much more than that. It's probably at least $1.6 billion, and growing. Because you've made commitments; you don't prioritize; you don't manage taxpayers' money well; and unfortunately, you've now added to the debt for each family in the province of Ontario, since you took office in 2003, an additional burden of $6,500.

You are starting to mortgage the future of my children and your children and your grandchildren. Somebody's going to have to pay for the increasing debt, the increased wild, carefree spending that you have engaged in and the beginning of a deficit that we know, over your term of office, is simply going to grow each and every day. Because you've never learned to govern in tough times. Your plan that you so boldly say is working isn't working. The programs that you've set up in 2005, and in this budget in 2008—people haven't even been able to access them.

The money that was made available hasn't been spent, because people can't access the plan. Look at the latest plan to help the almost 250,000 unemployed workers, introduced with great fanfare by your Premier and the minister about six months ago. Only 600 people are accessing that plan. And the list goes on and on. There was no help yesterday for people—no help for the senior citizens who saw the mutual funds decline one more day. Believe me, it's frightening. We all have family members who are seniors on fixed incomes, and there was no hope and there was no plan. People have lost confidence in your government

What about the small business person who has seen the number of regulations increase? There was no hope there. What about the person who's working for the larger business that has now decided that the economic environment in this province is not one that is conducive to growth? We're going to have more and more companies who are simply going to recognize that it's better to move to British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan or south of the border, because this province does not encourage economic growth. They are not creating an environment—

Interjection: You're taxing them out.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: You're taxing them.

Here's BC creating a climate that encourages job creation. The only jobs being created in the province of Ontario are public sector civil service jobs. Those are jobs that the taxpayers are having to pay for. You've got to rein in your spending. You've got to learn that there are priorities, and then what does your priority turn out to be? You cut nurses one more time and you reduce the family health teams. The only cuts that you made yesterday were not to your own spending, they were on the backs of patients and people in the province of Ontario.

This once mighty province that led the way in economic growth, that was a magnet for investment, has now been reduced to a point where we simply are trailing. There's not going to be any economic growth. People are fleeing this province. People are being forced to leave, being encouraged by Saskatchewan to move west because that's where the jobs are.

So I would say to this government, you need to focus on the fact that you must come forward in the future with a plan. You need to understand the need to manage the finances with some respect for the taxpayers who are working hard these days, if they have a job, to help pay the taxes.

You have to remember there's a huge difference between this government and the Conservative government that you replaced. We created, with the help of the private sector, one million new jobs. You have contributed, through your policies, to the reduction of at least 230,000 manufacturing jobs, and as Don Drummond from TD Bank said not too long ago, there'll be another loss of 250,000 jobs if you don't come up with an economic plan that is going to stimulate not public sector growth but private sector growth.

So far, if we take a look at what you did yesterday, there is no indication that you've learned your lesson. There is no acknowledgment that your five-point plan isn't working. There's every indication you're going to continue to tax, tax, tax and encourage more businesses to leave or see them go bankrupt. You aren't prepared to change the apprenticeship ratios. You are simply going to go ahead and continue with what you're doing and put this province, this once-great province, in greater jeopardy and in greater risk than it is today.

I would say to you, you need to learn what's meant by prudence and you need to recognize the harm that you've done to people in the province of Ontario. People are hurting today. People expected some answers today. They were looking for hope. You provided no hope for the family that you've now forced to pay, at some point in time, an additional $6,500 as a result of the increased debt load that you've placed upon them. There was no hope for the small business person who is overburdened by red tape and by taxes.

There's no hope for the large businesses that are trying to compete in the global economy; they have no advantage in this province whatsoever. And there's simply no hope for young people who are going to be graduating, looking for jobs. Well, the jobs aren't there; they're fleeing this province. So what you've done thus far has contributed only to the decline of this once-great province.

It's time for you to work with the opposition parties. It's time for you to work with all of the people in the province of Ontario. It's time for you to say more than, "Our five-point plan is working," because it's not. You had the chance to set up a select committee. We are in a time of crisis in this province. There are many people with great ideas, and it's time that this government and Premier McGuinty listened.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. Bruce Crozier: Well, we've just been given quite a lesson by the member for Kitchener—Waterloo, but I have some information that might put some doubt in the minds of folks when we get advice from that particular party. First of all, she said that we're spending like drunken sailors. There's no evidence that there are any drunk sailors around; in fact, I think maybe some sailors would challenge that. I don't know why she's picking on sailors in particular, but that's for her to mention to them.

To know where you're going, you have to know where you've been. The advice given to us by the member from Kitchener—Waterloo—who in this House would you think were the greatest deficit spenders in the history of the province of Ontario? The greatest deficits were run up by the NDP. From 1966 to 2008: I have 42 years of financial data here that was put together by the legislative library. The NDP, in their few years in office, ran up deficits that totalled $47.7 billion. They tried to spend their way out of a recession that we had in the early 1990s.

Then we go to the second-largest deficit spenders in the province's history and, lo and behold, that's the great Conservative Party. They have run up deficits, over the years, of $43.6 billion. Now, that member from the Conservative Party was giving us advice on how to spend money? And by the way, while she was doing that, she said that we don't manage taxpayers' money well. Well, my goodness. It would seem to me that the great Conservative Party hasn't managed taxpayers' money very well.

As a matter of fact, the Conservative Party that I remember since I've been here, the eight years of Conservative rule that I was here, I seem to recall that Mike Harris, the then-new Premier, started out by saying the province was bankrupt. That's the way he described the government that they assumed from the NDP. So do you know how he wanted to fix this bankrupt province?

Mr. Michael A. Brown: How?

Mr. Bruce Crozier: "How?" the member from Algoma—Manitoulin says. By giving people a tax cut and borrowing—borrowing—$20 billion. Now, I don't know of a bankrupt company that would go out and borrow $20 billion to give to their shareholders. I think that company would try and work its way out of that debt.

So we have this Conservative government prior to ours that's giving us the advice. They probably had eight years of the best economic growth in this country, and I will admit that. But what did they do? At the end of their reign, they leave a $5.6-billion debt. Now, the previous speaker said, "You're just piling debt onto our children." Well, listen to yourselves. You piled debt onto our children.

Then they'll say—and you know, I haven't been able to add it up, because it's just too much—"What you have to do is cut taxes." That's the secret to everything. We know Ronald Reagan had that secret; it was supposed to be trickle-down economics. We know George Bush has run his country into ruin that way. But anyway, that's what they say: tax cuts; that's the secret to it. We have ourselves targeted some tax cuts, some $3 billion when they're fully implemented. It's somewhat near $2 billion to this point. So we have had targeted tax cuts. But if you listen to them—and here's where I can't keep up with the numbers—day after day after day, they will stand up and want us to spend more money.

Just as an example, the speaker before started out by saying, "You're spending money like drunken sailors," and then turned right around and started to give us advice on areas where we would have to spend money. "Don't delay any spending. That will put our health at risk." It won't put our health at risk. We've got a good health system. We've got a health system that needs funding in various areas, and when the time comes, it will get that funding.

That's the kind of advice we get from them over there: "Reduce taxes, cut spending, but, oh, wait, no—don't cut spending. I'm going to ask for more money." That's the rhetoric we get from the other side, time after time. You really should have taken some of your own advice. If you didn't, in the past, then you'd better be very cautious about how you give us advice for the future.

Let's see. This financial information I have: In 36 years, the Progressive Conservatives had seven balanced budgets. It's not much of a record to be giving advice to somebody else. The NDP, of course, in the recession of the early 1990s, went through five years where they didn't have a single balanced budget. How many have we had? We've had four balanced budgets out of nine. I don't think that's too bad a record, quite frankly. In fact, once we eliminated the $5.6-billion deficit that was left to us by the Conservatives, why, we have had three balanced budgets.

Where are we today? Well, Finance Minister Duncan yesterday gave the fall economic update. In that update, we're looking at a possible half-billion-dollar deficit in the short term. Again, we get advice that we shouldn't look at deficits. Do you know what? I'm willing to bet that the federal finance minister is himself looking at the possibility of a deficit in Canada this year. I don't know why we should be criticized so strongly for having a possible deficit when the great Conservative Party that's leading Canada at the current time is even considering one themselves.

Let's be realistic, folks. We're in some very, very tough times. Ontario isn't in this alone, and you know, the people back in Essex who are suffering along with everybody else—in fact, some would say even more so in the Windsor—Essex area—understand that Ontario is not in this alone; they understand that we're in a world economic crisis right now. Governments all over this world—provincial, state and country—are going to have to take some measures and some steps that they've never had to take before.

You criticized our five-point plan, and that's your right. I was in opposition for 10 years and I know now that it's much easier to criticize than it is to govern, because there's no accountability in criticizing. You don't have to be concerned about what you say, because it really matters little.

When I say, "You don't have to worry what you say," let's see. We're speaking to the amendment to the amendment to the motion, I think, at the present time. So I will just go through some of the highlights of what it is that the third party's motion to our debate is. They want an industrial hydro rate so that Ontario's manufacturing and resource companies can count on stable competitive hydro policies.

Well, that may be something that would appeal to certain sections of manufacturing in Ontario, but then, again, how do I explain to my constituents in Essex that the NDP wants them to pay higher hydro rates so that this particular policy might be implemented? I think that might be kind of difficult to explain to my folks.

A jobs protection commissioner: Well, well. We have a Minister of International Trade and Investment; we have a Minister of Economic Development and Trade. I suspect that a trade commissioner could not do a great deal more than those two ministers, and in fact, I think, would do a great deal less.

A Buy Ontario policy: Well, the Minister of Government Services explained just a week or so ago that, essentially, what we have in the province of Ontario is a Buy Ontario policy.

Tougher plant closure legislation: I don't know what that means. I guess it means we have tough legislation now, but they want it tougher. The problem I see in that is that it may be unfriendly to business. In other words, depending on what they mean by tougher and to what extent they want to get tough, would that send a signal to companies—"Gee, we don't even think we want to go to Ontario, because we don't like that tougher plant closure legislation."

Pension and wage protection: I agree there. I think that hard-working employees shouldn't have the risk of losing their pensions and that they should have their wages protected. I don't know just how Mr. Miller, who is shouting out over there—Speaker, if I were shouting out like that, he would be asking—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I just remind the honourable member that we refer to each other by our riding names.

Interjections.

Mr. Bruce Crozier: Thank you, Speaker.

Anyway, I guess they would want this either in addition to the five-point plan or to replace it. They have not said.

Then we'll go to the amendment to the motion and see what suggestions are contained in that. One is, "That the taxpayers of Ontario deserve an immediate and comprehensive financial statement...." Well, the public accounts were reported in September. That certainly is a comprehensive look at the spending of the province. The finance minister gave an economic update just yesterday. I think that that's an open and comprehensive look at what the state of our finances is. So I guess we're either taking their advice here or they are merely repeating what it is we do on a daily basis anyway.

Even the next sentence says, "That people who have lost their jobs or are worried about their future deserve a comprehensive and realistic economic action plan designed to save existing jobs, attract new jobs and investment and help the unemployed find new work here in Ontario." I agree with that totally. The point is, you haven't said, in your suggestion, how you'd do it; we have. We have a five-point plan that addresses some of the very issues you mention in that particular sentence.

Let's look at the plan. Now that we've had advice from the biggest deficit spenders in the province's history and the second-biggest deficit spenders in the province's history, let's look at what we're trying to do in these difficult economic times.

I mentioned earlier that we're cutting business taxes. Over time, to 2012, there will have been $3 billion of cuts and rebates.

We've eliminated the capital tax for manufacturers and the resource sector. That was retroactive to January 2007, and that, so far, has meant $190 million in rebates to business. We've cut the business education tax and accelerated that tax cut for northern businesses.

In the infrastructure spending area, we introduced a plan that over 10 years will put $60 billion into building hospitals and schools. We were criticized a little earlier for jeopardizing the health care system. There are 100 hospital projects under way in the province of Ontario at the present time. I think that's pretty aggressive.

In just a matter of a week or two, we'll be going to the municipalities in the province with $1.1 billion in stimulus for our economy. That translates into about 11,000 jobs.

There is the $6.2-billion Building Canada fund that we participate in, there's a $450-million municipal infrastructure program and there's been over $700 million for colleges and university building projects.

Those are initiatives which stimulate the economy that we have been involved in over the several years we have had the privilege of being the government in the province of Ontario.

We're supporting innovation. The finance minister said yesterday that we are in transition, that we have an economy in Ontario that, when we come out of this slowdown, will perhaps not look exactly the way it did before. There are new businesses; there are areas of our economy that we will invest in that we haven't known before. We're having a greening economy; there are all kinds of opportunities. In fact the Premier, with a delegation of four other Premiers and a number of business people, is going to China with the idea of developing green industry. That's good.

They, over there, were criticizing that the top salesman in our province shouldn't be out getting new business. Well, if the economy is slowing, why wouldn't you go out and get new business? What's wrong with that?

Mr. Michael A. Brown: It's prudent.

Mr. Bruce Crozier: I think so. He's the top salesperson, and there are four other Premiers going. These folks would have him sit at home and not look for new opportunities in this world. That way, we're supporting innovation; we're putting funding into innovation.

We are partnering with business. Our auto strategy, which the federal government decided to get into way late in the game, by the way, has been working. It was only several days before the federal election that the federal government decided to come to the assistance of Ford Motor Co. in Windsor—Essex, and then it was with a loan. Now, they accepted that and it's going to save some jobs, but it followed the $17 million we gave to Ford to begin to solve that problem in the first place. So the federal government was a little Johnny-come-lately when it came to that.

I guess, in conclusion, what I'm really saying is that it's rather rich for them—those folks over there—to give us advice. When they had that opportunity, they didn't even heed the advice that they are giving to us today. That's why I say it's a lot easier to sit there and criticize and then not really put anything concrete on the table—a concrete suggestion. It's easy to criticize, a little more difficult to govern, and that's what we're doing now.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: It's a pleasure to join this debate here this morning. I'm going to have to take some time to correct the selective history that the member from Essex seems to have with regards to government here in Ontario, and in particular managing deficits in the province of Ontario. He seems to have this opinion about the previous Conservative government and how they had all of these deficits.

Mr. Michael A. Brown: Yeah. They did.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yeah. Well, let's just tell the correct history. You see, when the Conservatives won election in 1995, it didn't follow a circumstantial deficit in the province, as you people inherited. It followed four consecutive deficits of $10 billion or more—four consecutive deficits of $10 billion or more. So what we had here was a serious structural deficit in the province of Ontario when the previous Conservative government took office. That was partly to blame on the failed government of Bob Rae, who now wants to be the Prime Minister of this country—heaven forbid that that should ever be the case.

Part of the reason was Bob Rae's mismanagement and inability to handle a government when the economy was in difficult times. But it started with the previous government under David Peterson, who came into power under very similar circumstances that the McGuinty government came into power: in good economic times when the revenues were growing rapidly.

You people have done exactly what David Peterson did—live like the prodigal son. Do you know the biblical story of the prodigal son, where he wanted all of the inheritance, he wanted everything, so he could go out and spend it? That's exactly what David Peterson did, and that's what actually saddled Bob Rae and the New Democrats when they came into power in 1990. The mismanagement and the spending habits of the Peterson government saddled Bob Rae with a problem. Bob Rae didn't handle it very well because in the midst of a recession he still wanted to raise taxes.

So he just drove more and more businesses out of the province of Ontario, which is exactly what this government wants to do today. It inherited a very sound economy in the province of Ontario. It inherited a province that had the ability to give the government very, very increased revenues over the five years that this government has been in power. In fact, it's increased the revenue at an unprecedented time. But unfortunately, it's increased spending at an even higher unprecedented rate.

The member from Essex talks about how opposition members want the government to spend on this and spend on that. That is correct. It is our job to see where this government is deficient in its spending and bringing frontline services to the people of Ontario. The problem is that this government still spends; it just doesn't know how to spend. Like I said about that biblical story of the prodigal son, these guys get a hold of money and, as my dad used to say, it burns a hole in their pocket.

They get a hold of the revenue from the taxpayers and the businesses and the corporations in this province, and it burns a hole in their pocket. They can't manage it. They see that cash and they have to spend it. That is why we've got such a problem in this province with regard to deficits—because they can't handle prosperity. When they get their hands on some money, they have to spend it on all kinds of programs that they think are good but do not bring benefit to the people of Ontario.

They talk about having created jobs in this province. The only jobs they create are more government jobs. The government can't hire everybody. Governments don't create wealth; they simply take revenue and distribute it as expenditures. They don't create wealth. This government, this party, has the wrong-headed opinion that if they just keep hiring people at the government level, somehow Ontario's economy is going to continue to grow. The exact opposite is the truth. You have to create wealth by allowing business to create wealth.

When you look at the $96-billion budget that this government has, that's an unbelievable amount of money—almost a 50% increase since they took power—yet we're talking about a deficit today. But that $96 billion pales in comparison to what the actual value of the Ontario economy is, which is somewhere up close to $700 billion—because you allow the people who know how to make money and the people who know how to distribute wealth to do their job.

This government wants to hire everybody in Toronto to work in the bureaucracy. That doesn't work, because when the revenues do drop, you still have these spending commitments. This government has the spending commitments: They're committed to these workers. So now they're talking about, "Oh, we have a $96-billion budget." That's $96 billion, and this is their austerity plan: "We're going to cut about $100 million." Can you imagine if a business was in trouble—and what is that in percentages?

That's one tenth of 1% per cent, approximately, and this is the adjustment that you're going to make to spending in the province of Ontario, one tenth of 1%, because you guys don't know how to cut spending.

And what are you going to do? You're going to cut it on front-line services. You're going to cut it on the nurses we need in hospitals. Are you going to cut it from the bureaucracy? Are you going to cut it from the ministers' offices? Are you going to cut it from those people who are trading reports day by day to see how busy they are, wondering what they're writing about—a study on this and a study on that? The problem with this government who wants to do studies—you should be cutting some of those studies and putting money into front-line services. That's what you should be doing in this province, but no, you choose to cut front-line services.

I was just going to ask myself—the former Minister of Health is here today; he would have had a hell of a time, a hell of a time—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I just ask the honourable member to modify his language slightly.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Pardon me?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Modify your language slightly?

Mr. John Yakabuski: "Hell" is unparliamentary? Did that change while I was away?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Yes, I find it unparliamentary.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Well, I'm hopeful I don't go there, but anyway, if I do go there, I hope I don't go in a handbasket like this party wants to send this province.

Anyway, the former Minister of Health would have fought like heck to see those changes in front-line health care spending, but now, you see, he has a new gig. He's the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure. Now he wants to just put everything on hold in the energy and infrastructure portfolio. He wants to wait until next year to even decide what we're going to do about power in this province, but I'm not going to talk about that today because I haven't got time, because there's so much to talk about in this economy.

Let's get back to this government that talks about the records of the past. They challenged and chastised the former Progressive Conservative government under Mike Harris, who took a real structural deficit and wrestled it to the ground, in spite of the fact that your Liberal cousins in Ottawa were trying to eliminate their deficit on the backs of provinces. Now, today this government talks about the federal government and how it's hurting the province.

In the period from 1995 to 2003, did you ever hear this party once talk about or chastise or challenge the Chrétien Liberals for what they did to the provinces as a federal government? Did you ever hear the current Premier, Dalton McGuinty, challenge his party in Ottawa about what they did to the provinces? No. They only chastised and challenged the provincial government under Mike Harris as to what they were doing.

They have the ability to criticize Conservatives, but when they were in opposition they couldn't even challenge the Liberal government that was in power in Ottawa, and there were real structural deficits in this province.

They talked about the deficit under the Conservative government here in its last year of power. Let's talk about that. A $5.6-billion deficit is what Erik Peters came up with. However, $2.9 billion of that could be directly related to the associated costs and the revenue reductions as a result of SARS and the blackout in the province of Ontario. You add $771 million of health care transfers that had yet to come to the province but came to this government, and you find that we can deal with over $4 billion of that deficit—over $4 billion of a deficit at a time when catastrophic things were happening in Ontario.

Has this government ever once recognized or acknowledged the unusual and unprecedented challenges that faced the previous government that year? Not once. All they talk about is the $5.6-billion deficit and claim that as financial mismanagement.

I'll tell you what financial mismanagement is: It's when you have a $5.6-billion surplus, like this government had last year, and only a year later we're talking about a deficit, because, as I've said before, these people can't govern in tough times. They only want it when the piggy bank is full and they feel that their job and their just inheritance in this province is to come in and govern when the bank account is full, and spend all the money, because they're Liberals and that's what they love to do.

It makes them happy when they go home at night and say, "Did you see what we spent?" They're either going to say, "You guys are asking us to spend money"—yes, we are, but we are asking you to spend money on the right things. You spend money on creating government jobs. The Premier talks about—

Interjection.

Mr. Paul Miller: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I believe that a previous speaker, the member from Essex, got up and was upset that I was making comments while he was speaking. Well, the member just did it to my colleague in the Conservative Party. Being a Deputy Speaker, he knows the rules. He reminded us how long he's been in the House. I'm relatively new to the House. He knows the rules, yet he breaks them when it suits him. I have a real problem with that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you for your comment. It's not a point of order. The honourable member from Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke has the floor, and I would ask all members to respect the fact that the member from Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke has the floor.

Honourable member.

Mr. John Yakabuski: As I said, this government feels it's their ordained privilege to come into Ontario and spend money when Ontario has it. And now, when Ontario, like other jurisdictions, is finding money in scarce supply, they don't quite know how to handle it.

The Premier talks about his five-point plan—and we've talked about working in a non-partisan way to try to help bring Ontario out of this malaise that this government has taken it under. We're prepared to work with them. The Premier talks about his five-point plan. The five-point plan for business in this province under Dalton McGuinty—I would say he should retitle it: It should be called "layoff, refinance, restructure, close, and move to Saskatchewan." That's the five-point plan that we've got from this government, because they have offered nothing.

They talk about a five-point plan, but what concrete and real proposals have they brought to business in this province since the downturn has hit? What new has been brought to business in this province to try to help turn around the economic situation? Absolutely nothing. They continue to stand in the way of business because they would rather act as an impediment than a partner; they would rather burden businesses than work as a partner.

I'm going to switch a little bit here to the one particular business that I'm concerned about in my riding: the forestry business. When I talk about how they would rather burden than partner, well, the forestry business has been suffering tough times ever since this government was elected, as a matter of fact. What is this government's approach to forestry? "Let's continue to bring in more and more new regulation and exert more and more burden on people who work in the business of harvesting forest products.

Let's make it more difficult for them to operate and more difficult for them to compete in a globe market where the regulatory process and the regulatory burden on people from other jurisdictions is so much less than it is here in Ontario." That is one of the primary reasons that we are seeing shutdowns, closures, and layoffs in the forestry business.

Just last week, the Smurfit-Stone mill in Portage-du-Fort, Quebec, shut down. That's in the province of Quebec, but the reality is that the shutdown of the Smurfit-Stone pulp mill in Portage-du-Fort, Quebec, has more impact on the forestry business in Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke—my riding—than any business shutting down in the riding could, because that is the number one market for the pulp and chips that come out of the forest operators in Renfrew county. If you can't sell pulp, you can't sell logs. It's as simple as that. Your business, your forestry operations will shut down.

You have to be able to get value out of every part of every tree in the forestry business today. It's no longer a business where you can simply high-grade things, take the best and leave the rest of it in the bush to rot; you've got to take everything. You've got to get money out of everything or you can't compete. It's akin to, if you're a beef farmer and you can't get somebody to buy the hamburger, I can assure you that you won't be able to sell your steak because it will be too expensive. You can't high-grade.

The problem that the forestry industry is faced with when they lose a place to sell their pulp is that they shut down because nobody is going to buy their logs at the price that they would have to charge them to cover the cost of extraction when they can't get some money for the pulp.

We need this government—and I must say that I had the opportunity to speak to the Minister of Natural Resources yesterday, and I expect that she is going to stick to her commitment to try to find solutions to this. But I caution her and ask her and her government to stop standing as a barrier with its regulatory regime when it comes to the forestry industry, and start standing as a partner so that we can actually improve the situation that our forestry operators are working under here in the province of Ontario today.

Of course, I speak more particularly about the forest operators in Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke who are under such stress as a result of the closure of Smurfit-Stone in Portage-du-Fort, Quebec.

Some of them have been able to find some temporary markets for some of those products, but they are, in fact, very temporary. The closure of Smurfit-Stone could affect one out of every seven jobs in Renfrew county. That is huge. Can you imagine, if one out of seven jobs in the city of Toronto was threatened, what that would do to the economy of this city, of this province, of this country? That's what it could do in my riding of Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke.

If this minister doesn't partner with the industry and try to work with them to find solutions to allow them to compete in a global market where, as a result of the regulatory burden foisted upon them by this government, they are simply not able to compete at this time.

The member for Essex talked about how we were questioning the government with regard to hydro rates. One of the things that the industries in this province will tell you is that one of the most difficult things for them to deal with is the high cost of electricity, and this government wants to continue to increase that cost to those manufacturers. Well, it's not rocket science. If your revenues are declining, as a business, and your expenses are increasing, it's just like a vise; it just keeps coming closer and closer and closer until there is no room anymore.

It is the responsibility of the government to try to understand the reality of what it is like to do business in the province of Ontario. This government works in their own world, where they just kind of come up with these ideas about, "We'll figure out what's best for everybody, because we're Liberals and therefore we're smarter than everybody."

You need to sit down with the real business people in this province, the people who really make the economy work, the people who really create the jobs in this province, not the jobs you people try to pad your record with, saying there are this many more people working in the province of Ontario this month because you hired them all in Toronto to flip paper around in an office. No, you need to create real jobs by working with business in this province, and we are prepared to work with you. Don't shut out the opposition, as you've been doing so far. Let us work together to bring better times to the province of Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

M. Jean-Marc Lalonde: C'est un grand plaisir pour moi de pouvoir participer à ce débat ce matin, sur une résolution déposée le 7 octobre dernier par notre premier ministre, Dalton McGuinty.

Since the tabling of the motion on October 7, a lot of changes have occurred in the markets, as we know. On October 7, the dollar was at 90.31 cents and oil was at $90.27 a barrel. Today the dollar is at 79.2 cents and oil is at $66.79. We recognize that the markets all over the world have taken a deep drop. But we have to remember something: Do we still have the market?

I hear people on the other side say that we should cut the corporate tax. I don't know if everyone here knows that we are the lowest in corporate tax in North America. At the present time, the current one is 31.5 with the federal government corporate tax. Ours is only at 12.9, I believe, and within a 10-year period—the Premier announced it—we will eliminate the corporate tax. But I hear from the other side that we have to do something.

When I say the market isn't there, we look at our number one employer in Ontario. It's the auto parts and car industry. That industry employs over 132,000 people in Ontario, 75,000 of them in the parts industry. We do produce approximately 2.5 million cars a year, but in the parts industry, there are parts going back and forth to the States about six times. At the present time, we have to realize, when I say that the market isn't there in the States, that 80% of our product GDP is exported, and 93% of that goes to the States. But ever since this started in the States, we haven't got the market. Are we going to continue producing and sending everything to landfill sites? Definitely not.

Every level of government—the federal government, us and the municipal governments—has a job to do. But at the present time, our Premier has taken the initiative. As he was mentioning before, we could see that coming; I could see it coming. Way back six months ago, I produced a report; I could see those things coming. I keep saying that every one of us has a role to play.

In French we say, « On doit se regarder dans le miroir. » When I say that, qu'avons-nous fait pour garder nos emplois? Qu'avons-nous fait pour être plus compétitifs? Qu'avons-nous fait pour être capables de continuer à exporter notre produit aux États-Unis?

On July 10, we decided to open up a marketing office in Paris. Why? Because we could see this coming. Our Premier could see it coming, and immediately he said we have to work towards that to face a big challenge that is coming to us, and we have done it. He has done it. How? By looking at the infrastructure program that we have in place today. We have a five-point plan, and we also started to look at the infrastructure. We know that the previous government downloaded a lot of services that the municipalities had to pay for.

We know that in Glengarry—Prescott—Russell we had a shortfall with this downloading of over $26 million a year. And when I hear my friends from Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke saying that we should spend more money to be able to keep our jobs—how can we do it? We have to be competitive and we are not competitive at the present time.

When he referred to hydro rates, way back in 2002, I remember my good friend John Baird, who at that time was Minister of Energy. I met with him at the Royal York Hotel, I'll never forget that, and he said "Jean-Marc, I'm going to bring down the hydro rates to 4.3 cents and you can take the credit for it." I said "John, do we have the money for that?" "Oh yes, we have a surplus of over $300 million a month." You know what that means to us? We took over with over $18 billion of debt at Hydro. How?

Because the people that had signed contracts with retail salespeople at 6.89 cents and 7.69 cents, we had to pay them back—the company. We were charging the customers 4.3 cents, as Premier Harris had done, and then those people who signed contracts at 7.69 cents and 7.89 cents, we had to give them the difference. This is why we ended up with this. To the point, no one in the world was ready to invest in the hydro industry in Ontario because at 4.3 cents they couldn't make a buck. Anybody who wants to invest money, it's because they want to make money, but they couldn't at 4.3 cents.

At one point, we purchased the hydro that we were selling at 4.3 cents—we purchased the electricity at $1.33 a kilowatt hour. Is that good administration? We purchased it at $1.33 a kilowatt hour and we were selling it at 4.3 cents. Is this good administration? Not at all.

When I looked at the story on the auto industry from the CBC News on October 21, just three days ago, they were giving the whole story from 2005 about what's happening in the auto industry. I have the whole list here: 400 jobs lost at Magna; Toyota is cutting down production; in Renault, in France, they're cutting down the number of employees by 6,000 people; the auto industry in the States is down by 27%. You just have to look at the CBC News report. Just go on the Internet and you will see all that.

Just in 2008, BMW—you might say BMW is not a product that we do. Yes, we do products for BMW—parts here in Ontario. Mercedes is also affected. We produce windshields for Mercedes here in Ontario. On April 28, General Motors cut 3,500 jobs by scaling back shifts at four North American assembly plants. In Windsor, we're cutting 1,400 people; at General Motors in Oshawa, 2,600 people. So everything is there. We don't have the market anymore. Why? Because people are down from, let's say, $50 an hour to probably making, today, $10 an hour. Can they afford to buy a car? No. This is definitely affecting our market, so we have to be very careful.

Also what our Premier has done is, as I said, he took the initiative of looking at what is going to happen here in the next year or two. Immediately he says that we have to invest in the infrastructure program. Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke has received over $10 million in one year from the McGuinty government. The Cambridge people that were criticizing yesterday, who said that we have gone on a spending spree—I cannot understand. Are we going to go back and tell the people in Cambridge, "Should we take back the money from you people? According to your MPP, it shouldn't have been spent." They got $9,086,000.

When I look at Halton Hills and Halton region, do you know how much they got? You got $32 million. Are you going to criticize the McGuinty government for looking after the infrastructure that the previous government hadn't done a thing about?

This is why today all the municipalities are trying to get money to fix up the water mains, the sewage system, the roads and bridges, but we said, "If we put this program in place, that will create 11,000 jobs." Instead of having those people that don't have a job probably going back from $30 an hour to $10 an hour, today the construction industry is becoming the number one industry.

In Ontario, the industrial sector is employing 950,000 people and, again, 93% of our exports are to the States. As I said, we have to be competitive. We have to look at every angle that we could look at.

C'est pour ça que nous devons tous regarder dans le miroir : « Est-ce que j'ai vraiment fait ma part? Est-ce que je suis prêt à accepter de conserver mon emploi? »

When I look at what our Premier has done—we have some problems in the town of Alexandria in North Glengarry. I went up to see the Premier and the Minister of Economic Development and Trade at the time, and I said that to save companies like Alexandria Moulding and Altec we have to come up with some changes within the municipality. They need some money to save those jobs. They were looking at transferring only the shipping sector—the distribution sector—to the States. That would have meant about 135 people, plus the trucking companies, plus the mechanics for those companies. That is not counting the indirect jobs.

But I sat down with them, and I got the union to sit down with me and the employees. We looked at every angle. They were saying that in the States the electricity was cheaper. I analyzed everything and I turned around and said, "Even though they're giving you municipal tax free for the next five years, you still pay more in the States when you calculate everything." We needed something. We needed to change the water mains to make sure that they were able to get instruments in their plants so the sprinklers would work, because in the system they have in place the pressure was not strong enough.

And we said to the union, "What can you do to save those jobs?" Alexandria is only a small town of 3,400 people in the east end of my riding. We looked at it. We gave them $3.65 million to fix up the water main. We did save the jobs, but with the good part, the good role, that the union has played. They looked at it. Their average salary was probably only $23 an hour; it's better than $10 an hour. If they had been laid off, they would have probably made $8 or $10 an hour over there. We saved those jobs. The union said, "Yes, we'll reopen the collective agreement. We will cut down the salary by 90 cents an hour.

There won't be any more bonuses if you want to keep the jobs here."

The 135 jobs meant, at the end, 534 jobs, because that was the first

section of Alexandria Moulding. Altec, a Cleveland company that is down there too—probably only 60 people. We sat down with them. I remember being at a council meeting, and I asked the mayor, "Can I use your kitchen to meet those people before they make the decision on moving out?" I sat down with them in the kitchen, and they said, "Yes, Mr. Lalonde, you are our MPP. We depend on you." So I went back over here, and we negotiated. Today, they are expanding. Alexandria Moulding is about five times bigger than it was at the time that we negotiated that. That is number one.

When I look at all the services or the money that we have given to the municipalities—unbelievable. When I look at the city of Ottawa, for example—we have a member from Nepean here who criticizes us quite often, let me tell you—they got $111 million from the two programs that we have in place. Is that because—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: They're doing their job. What's the point?

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: What's the point? It's because the infrastructure has to be fixed up, so we did it.

There are a lot of points that we could discuss. Like my colleague from Essex said, we look to help out the small business people.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Sure you do.

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: Yes.

I have the figures here, which I couldn't believe; I have the charts. Surprisingly enough, I never heard the member from Leeds—Grenville criticizing the provincial business industrial education property tax for $500,000. In Parry Sound, industrial, it was $4,770 per 500; in Brockville, it was $22,170, a difference of $18,000 per 500. That was done by the previous government. The downloading wasn't fair for everyone. Today, what we have done—the Premier says, "We want to level this off across the province, so we will invest $750 million to make sure that everybody gets the same level of services in Ontario.

In Cornwall, $21,187—444% more than what they are paying in Parry Sound.

Interjection: Shame.

Mr. Jean-Marc Lalonde: Shame, yes, you could say that.

There are a lot of points that we could discuss here, but let me tell you that the McGuinty government has taken the initiative. Just last Friday, I was in Montreal, for example. There was a forum on the economy, and the chief economist from the National Bank of Canada made a presentation—and the same thing for France, African countries. I was happy to be there to represent our minister.

Let me tell you what the chief economist, Mr. Clément Gignac, said: "To face the challenge that we have, one thing that everyone has to do is invest in the infrastructure." Was I ever glad when I heard that from Mr. Gignac, the chief economist. I said, "This is exactly what the Premier has done in Ontario." If the federal government had done the same thing, we could have saved a lot of employment. As I said, our program has created over 11,000 jobs.

But when we announced on August 25 that we had $1.1 billion for the infrastructure program for our municipalities, the federal government, the day after—the member for Nepean, who was Minister of the Environment, was proud to say we got $6.2 billion for the province of Ontario over a period of six years. But do you know how much we got for this year? We got $100 million for over 400 municipalities. That's peanuts. It's a shame. And to get that $100 million, the municipalities have to match it.

Prior to the last federal campaign we had, we had the member going around announcing $2.6 million to Hawkesbury, $600,000 to Bourget, but there was no program, so they never got the money. That was the political role they were playing.

But this is great—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you. It being just past 10:15, the debate is adjourned.

Debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): This House stands recessed till 10:30.

The House recessed from 1016 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I'd like to introduce the parents of Andrew Walker, the page from Scarborough—Rouge River: Jennifer and Bob Walker, and they're with us in the east gallery today.

Mrs. Laura Albanese: I'd like to welcome the grade 5 students from St. Bernard Catholic church in my riding of York South—Weston, who are here today visiting the Legislature.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I'd like to welcome members of the Tibetan community and members of Students for a Free Tibet here today.

Mr. Paul Miller: I'd like to introduce my wife, Carole Paikin-Miller, in the west gallery.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I trust the member will be on his best behaviour today, with his wife present.

Mr. Charles Sousa: I'd like to welcome to Queen's Park two young Australian professionals, part of a Rotary International exchange team hosted by the Rotarians of Mississauga: Pieter Kool and Jack Smith.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: My question is for the Premier and it deals with yesterday's economic statement. I think one word that summarizes that statement, Premier, is "disappointing." People have been looking for leadership and inspiration and hope, and I think they were let down.

Two hundred and thirty thousand jobs have been lost in this province in the past two years. Communities like Goderich, Smiths Falls, Chatham and many others are facing economic uncertainty. They heard nothing to indicate a recognition of their challenges in yesterday's statement.

Premier, why was your economic statement silent on the impact that job losses are having on so many communities and so many families in this province?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: It's been said that a budget or an economic update is more than just a financial statement. It's a statement of our values. What we worked hard to do is to ensure that statement is informed by Ontarians' values.

It is with some regret that we've got to come to grips with a global economic challenge, but our resolve is stronger than ever to do what Ontarians are asking us to do. They want us to protect their public services. They want to us protect their schools and their hospitals and other public protections, to make sure we're continuing to fund police on our streets, for example. So we won't shy away from that. But at the same time, we want to take into account the fact of our economic reality. The economy is going to grow more slowly and we're going to have to make some more difficult decisions.

We have made some that will help us get to this year-end but there are more to come. We will always do that, in keeping with Ontario values.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: Again, more rhetoric from the Premier. In the statement yesterday, his government was still suggesting that their five-point plan is working, as jobs bleed out of this province and families are suffering. The five-point plan clearly isn't working, and you can't seem to recognize and accept that.

Premier, if you want to stop the erosion of jobs and help struggling communities and families in this province, why didn't you announce tax cuts that businesses have asked for? Why didn't you announce a frontal assault on red tape that businesses have asked for? Why didn't you address these critical issues in your economic statement yesterday?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: From time to time, we come to stare into the face of the Conservative ideology. They're unhappy with the results of our decisions. We're going to have a modest deficit. We've chosen to do that rather than gut public services. They're saying that they're unhappy with the deficit, that we shouldn't have a deficit, but they're also saying that we should cut taxes dramatically. You can't have it both ways. You can't maintain public services and dramatically cut. We had that experience. They cut their taxes and they left us with deficits. We've had that experience. They were in power for eight years and they ran five deficits.

We've tried that; we're not going back there. We're going to look after public services, we're going to run a modest deficit and we're going to bring reality to bear when—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Premier. Final supplementary?

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: The Premier talks about our suggestions in terms of improving the situation for communities, families and people looking for work as "Conservative ideology." I guess he wasn't talking to his Liberal counterpart Gordon Campbell yesterday, who made an economic statement announcing tax cuts for families and businesses. Here, we get nothing but more rhetoric from this Premier. We know communities, families, seniors and businesses in this province are facing real challenges, yet they saw no relief from you in yesterday's statement, no relief from 20% increases in property tax assessments and no relief from 10% increases in hydro rates.

The Premier is living in a bubble in his taxpayer-funded Toronto accommodation. There's no recognition of reality in the failings of his five-point plan. Premier, when can the people of this province expect some real action to address real problems?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: At the beginning of my honourable colleague's last question, he talked about BC. They have different circumstances there. They have a different makeup to their economy, and they introduced a new tax just a short time ago. I don't think that's what my friend is suggesting that we should do here.

With respect to our five-point plan, let me tell you about some of the things that we've been able to accomplish through that plan. We've got 100,000 more young people now in our colleges and universities. We have 100,000 people working in jobs today as a result of infrastructure projects totalling more than 100 in number. We've invested dramatically in innovation, turning home-grown ideas into hometown jobs. Those are the kinds of things that take some time, they take some perseverance and they take some continuing application.

We've made some real progress in that regard. We will continue to make progress together, working with Ontarians.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: Back to the Premier: This morning on CFRB radio, he described the province's economy as a train wreck. Well, guess who was driving the train? Not only has this government ignored hard-hit Ontarians, but you're not being straight with them about why you won't help.

In response to repeated questions and requests that we've made over the past few weeks for a full accounting, we were told that all would be revealed in yesterday's statement. Today, we're still waiting. Premier, where is the detailed breakdown of the $1 billion in savings, which is now listed as a $1.1-billion figure in the statement? That's what you promised. Where is it?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The background documents that were detailed yesterday, as well as the online sites, outline in great detail where those changes are happening. But let me tell you what we won't do as we confront the challenges in our economy. We won't fire 6,200 nurses, the way you did while you were doing tax cuts, or 15,000 teachers. We won't let meat inspectors go; we won't let water inspectors go; we won't cut 1,400 people from the Ministry of the Environment staff.

I noted with great interest what Conservative economist Diane Francis said last evening to your colleague Mr. Hudak—that this modest deficit is the right approach to go. We're taking a balanced, fulsome approach to the challenges in the economy. We reject their tax cuts—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: I asked the Premier a specific question, and we get the Minister of Finance puffing out his chest, as he's wont to do, and more and more blarney, instead of addressing a specific issue and a specific concern.

This is a government that has already overspent its budget by millions of dollars, while it's asking Ontarians to tighten their belts. Ontarians can have no confidence that this so-called billion dollars in savings is anything more than creative accounting.

Once again, Premier and your minister, will you confirm that this year's deficit will in fact be $1.6 billion? Is that what next spring's budget will reveal?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We outlined that our view, based on current projections, is the deficit will be $500 million.

I'll tell you what's blarney: trying to suggest, as they did five years ago, that they had a balanced budget when they left a deficit of $5.5 billion. I'll tell you what's blarney: trying to imply that our five-point plan isn't working—the infrastructure money is in the ground, creating 100,000 jobs. I'll tell you what's blarney: standing at your seat and criticizing us for not doing business tax cuts, when we've done $3 billion and you voted against every one of them.

I'll tell you what else is blarney: It's blarney to suggest that our valuable investments in public services, education, health care, environment and infrastructure—those jobs give people paycheques, and those people spend their cheques and their money in grocery stores, in restaurants.

We've laid out the right plan in difficult times, and we reject your failed ideology which is being—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Final supplementary.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: "Blarney" wouldn't be an adequate word to describe that load of you know what.

Perhaps the Premier and his colleague are being dismissive about the real amount of the deficit because, really, it's not their debt; it's a debt of almost $20,000 that he's passed on to every single household in Ontario. That's a debt that's going to have to be paid by our kids and our grandkids going forward, through increased taxes. It's a debt they wouldn't have to pay if this government knew how to set aside a rainy day fund, because they've had $27 billion in increased revenue over the life of this government.

It's a debt they wouldn't have to pay if the Attorney General and the Minister of Education didn't spend $7 million on hotels last year, if you didn't have a $2.3-million party in Windsor just a few weeks ago.

Premier, Minister, Ontarians deserve to know why they should have—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I'd like to remind the House that when the Canadian dollar was weak relative to the US, when the US economy was running on all eight cylinders, when oil prices were down around $20 to $30, that member and his party ran five deficits. In the last four years of their administration, expenses went up more than 10%, while revenues went up 5%. Their expenditures grew faster than their revenues.

The debt-to-GDP ratio has gone from 25% when we took office to 17% this year, because in addition to making these sound and prudent investments in our schools, in our hospitals, we've been paying down debt. We've been investing in infrastructure. We will continue to make those prudent investments.

Again, I say, we reject the one-trick pony of tax cuts and deregulation that's in disrepute today right around the world.

VISITOR

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Sorry to interrupt, but I didn't see the individual here earlier. Join me in welcoming the member for Markham from the 34th and 35th Parliaments and the member for York from the 32nd and 33rd Parliaments, Mr. Don Cousens. Welcome back to Queen's Park.

New question. The member from Toronto—Danforth.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Peter Tabuns: To the Premier: Yesterday's economic statement demonstrates that this government has no plan to deal with the economic crisis. Ontarians are asking one simple thing: Will you be there for them at a time of unprecedented economic insecurity? You didn't introduce a single new measure to respond to the economic crisis. The government gave a very simple response: "You are on your own when you need us the most."

Will you admit that in yesterday's economic statement, this government failed to announce a single new measure to create jobs? This government has absolutely no idea what to do about Ontario's economic crisis.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I appreciate the question from my honourable colleague, but obviously I take issue with the question itself.

The Conservatives are asking us to dramatically reduce taxes, which would lead to a gutting of our public services. I want to say to my honourable colleague: We've said no to that. We're standing up for public services in Ontario. We're standing up for maintaining the health and vigour and vitality of our schools, our health care and our protections for the public in general. We're standing up for that. That's what we said yesterday through our fall economic statement.

At the same time, we said that we can't be blind to economic realities, and we need to find ways to demonstrate restraint. That's why we found an additional $500 million in savings for this year-end—not an easy thing to do, because the year is mostly over. So I would disagree with my friend. We have said yes to public services, we've said yes to restraint, and we rejected suggestions that come from the extremes.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Premier, you had a choice yesterday. You could have announced bold new jobs initiatives; you could have looked at the levers that are in use in Manitoba and Quebec, where they're standing up for their populations; you could have taken on the responsibility of looking after Ontarians in difficult economic times. Why won't you take the tools that are in use in Quebec and Manitoba and are being used to protect working people and use those here in Ontario to show people that you're on their side and are not saying to them simply, "You're on your own"?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, we see things differently. Over on this side of the House we've been working hard to help Ontarians to grow stronger—and manufacturing in particular. That's what our five-point plan is all about. When you invest dramatically, as we have, in post-secondary education, for example, creating more opportunities for more Ontarians to take advantage of upgrading themselves and retraining themselves, that's a good thing for those individuals and it's a good thing for the economy.

When you invest dramatically in infrastructure, as we have—we've got over 100 construction projects under way, over 100,000 jobs that we're creating at present. That's all about helping people right now and creating jobs right now. Ontarians sense that. They're actually experiencing that. Again, I disagree with my friend.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Notwithstanding what the Premier has cited, the simple reality is that people are losing their jobs, are losing their incomes and are facing desperate times, and you are saying to them, "You're on your own." Now is the wrong time for government to retreat. Now is the time for government to step in and protect the population of this province. Will you not stand in your place, admit you don't have a plan to deal with this economic crisis, and will you, in fact, rethink your position, come back to Ontarians and tell them they're not on their own?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: While we come to grips with this global economic challenge and the consequences being felt here in Ontario, I don't want us to lose perspective. Since 2003, we've created a net 500,000-plus jobs. In the last year alone, we've created 104,000 net new jobs in the province of Ontario. We're creating one third of all new jobs in Canada. Unemployment is down today in comparison to when the Tories finished up their time in government. Wages, in fact, are up. This year, 83% of all the new jobs created in Ontario were created in the private sector. So there is some good news out there, and we shouldn't lose perspective.

There is no better place on this planet in which to seek shelter from this global economic storm than here in Canada. We're part of that. We're making some difficult decisions, but I argue that they are the responsible decisions.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Tell that to people in Windsor.

To the Premier: Yesterday's economic statement was a failure that will be felt hardest by the province's cash-strapped municipalities. The government is now in deficit, so its Investing in Ontario Act won't provide new infrastructure money this year. Municipalities are taking it on the chin. The economic downturn is forcing them to spend more on downloaded social services and they'll be getting much less for crumbling infrastructure. How much longer will you leave municipalities in an untenable position?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Hon. Jim Watson: Let me just correct the record. This government, through the Premier at the AMO conference in August, announced that we are investing $1.1 billion from the Investing in Ontario Act. We had a choice when that piece of legislation was passed; that money could have gone to a wide variety of partners, but this government showed its commitment to the municipal sector and provided those surplus funds of $1.1 billion. They will be in the hands of the municipal sector to create jobs, to build infrastructure, within the next two to three weeks, and it's something we're very proud of.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Yesterday's statement fails municipalities. Two years after the provincial-municipal fiscal review, this government still has nothing to show for it. The economic downturn is going to hit all communities. Municipalities that are in the resource heartland have been hit hard. That will spread. Those costs for Ontario works will stay on the backs of municipal property taxpayers. Will the Premier admit that by not making an immediate down payment on provincially mandated services and not committing to assuming full responsibility for Ontario works by fall 2011, that sends the wrong message and fails municipalities?

Hon. Jim Watson: I hate to correct the member for a second time, but the fact of the matter is that in 2003, the municipal sector received approximately $1.1 billion in transfer payments from the Ontario government. Today, in 2008, $2.2 billion is going to the municipal sector: That's a doubling of funding that's gone from the province of Ontario to those municipalities.

Let me just quote mayor David Miller, who said, "What the funding announcement will do for the city of Toronto for the first time since amalgamation is give us a viable operating budget before the budget process starts ... we're extremely pleased with the provincial economic statement." That was David Miller, December 2007. We're proud of the partnership we've developed with the municipal sector. We're not going down the route the NDP went down with social contracts, with meddling in the collective agreement—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Not only did that statement fail municipalities, it failed the health care system. In 2007, the government promised to hire 9,000 additional nurses. Ontarians are told to wait. "Wait," is what the Premier is telling Ontarians in terms of delivering on his promises. "Wait," is what he's telling people in emergency rooms and in their hospital beds. How will the Premier explain this broken promise?

Hon. Jim Watson: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. David Caplan: In fact, what's happened in the past five years is an over-$11-billion increase in health care spending—a 37% increase. That has funded 8,000 new full-time nurses in our hospitals, in our long-term-care homes. In fact, my predecessor—a brand new and insightful, exciting program to provide off-load nurses into emergency rooms to be able to handle some of those pressures.

I'm very proud of the work we've accomplished in reducing wait times, and I'd like to share with the member some of the results of those investments: angiography, down 53%; angioplasty, down 50%; cataract surgery, down 63%; hip replacement, down 52%; knee replacement, down 51%; CT scans, down 46%; cancer surgeries, down 19%; MRI scans, down 18%, bypass surgeries, a 26%—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. New question.

ONTARIO ECONOMY

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: I would point out to the Minister of Finance that our government went from an $11.3-billion deficit in 1995 and ended our career with five consecutive balanced budgets. Not four: five.

My question is to the Premier. Ontario, once the point of destination for global business, is now a point of departure. Companies are leaving at an incredible rate, taking jobs and capital with them, but also they're taking away tax revenue, forcing Ontario into deficit. Premier, I warned you about this many times. If you tax them too much, they will leave. Your total revenues will shrink. If you offer a competitive jurisdiction, more businesses will come and revenues will increase. It's called the Laffer curve. It's basic economics. Premier, will you reduce your tax rates, your corporate—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Premier.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I remind my colleague opposite that not only did they run consecutive deficits, they borrowed money to cut taxes. They raised the province's debt. They left us with a $5.5-billion deficit. We were able to deal with that and delivered three consecutive surplus budgets. We have paid down the province's debt. We have rehired the environment inspectors you fired, the meat inspectors you fired, the nurses you fired.

The tax-cut, deregulation, slash-and-burn ideology has been rejected around the world. Even Mr. Flaherty today acknowledges that a deficit could in fact be a reality for Canada and may in fact be a prudent and appropriate policy. I'd welcome the member to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: That's exactly the attitude that has put us in a deficit. The current deficit is largely because almost $900 million less revenue has been received from Ontario corporate taxes. Where did the money go? It went to Mexico, it went to China, Brazil, to states like Pennsylvania, where the costs are lower than they are in Ontario. Businesses like Volvo, John Deere, Henniges Automotive, Interforest, PPG, General Motors and Campbell Soup haven't gone out of business. They've simply moved out of Ontario and consolidated elsewhere, taking their tax dollars and tax revenues with them.

Minister, I ask you again, will you learn from your mistakes? Will you save Ontario jobs? Will you safeguard essential services and implement a comprehensive shift in economic policy that includes making corporations more competitive in Ontario?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We did that in our throne speech and in our budget. We have introduced the largest infrastructure spending initiative in the province's history, and that member voted against it. We've provided $1.5 billion for skills training and training initiatives. That member voted against it. We eliminated the capital tax for manufacturers. We are equalizing and reducing the business education tax right across Ontario. That member and his party voted against it. We are building partnerships with our municipalities by increasing funding, by uploading ODB, ODSP. That member voted against it.

That ideology has been discredited around the world. We will continue—

Interjection.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: —and we won't do a carbon tax, like you're advocating, I say to the member opposite. What I'll say—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question?

POVERTY

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is for the Premier. Yesterday neither the finance minister's economic statement nor the background papers mentioned the word "poverty" once. Ontarians can only conclude one thing and that is that poverty obviously has fallen off the government's radar. At a time when more people are falling into poverty every day, there was nothing in the government's economic statement to assuage the fears of the poor—no plan, no strategy, nothing.

Why are the McGuinty Liberals choosing to ride out the economic storm on the backs of Ontario's most vulnerable citizens?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Children and Youth Services.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think it's important that we take a step back and look at some of the things that we are already doing, that we will continue to do to support people living in poverty in this province. Let's talk for a minute about the Ontario child benefit that you voted against. The Ontario child benefit is now putting money in the hands of families of low income in this province. That money has flowed, it's going monthly, and we have a scheduled plan to increase the amount until it reaches $1,100 per child per year.

The minimum wage has gone up from $6.85 to $8.75. It's going up to $9.50 next March. There is absolutely no plan to change that. Social assistance rates have gone up and continue to go up. Affordable housing: $100 million in our last budget that you voted against to repair the infrastructure.

We are making great progress—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: The honourable minister speaks of the Ontario child benefit and all the other things as if they're actually doing something. They amount to about a dollar a day and that's all that you have done in your term in government.

The government repeated yesterday that it would "delay" or "slow down" the implementation of some new spending initiatives; those are your words, not mine. After one year, not one red cent has been put forward for a dental program for low-income people. Can the Premier promise Ontarians that no poverty initiative—for instance, the low-income dental plan in the 2008 budget—will be delayed or cut?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We are at a really interesting moment in Ontario's history when we have a government that is committed to actually tackling poverty. We're committed to measuring poverty, we're committed to making progress.

As the member opposite well knows, we are on track to release our poverty reduction strategy by the end of the year. That hasn't changed. We're full steam ahead. We are going to make the changes we need to make so that every child in this province has the opportunity to be the very, very best they can be.

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. Transportation, Minister, affects every single resident of Ontario, whether it's driving, catching a bus or taking a plane. This is an area government cannot neglect. Not only does a sound transportation system ensure the smooth flow of goods, it also ensures that Ontarians are able to get from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible.

In my riding of Northumberland—Quinte West, we have three public transit systems: Port Hope, Cobourg, and the city of Quinte West is just embarking on one. I'm hoping the minister can share with the House and with all Ontarians what his ministry is doing to ensure that the importance of a solid, well-funded transportation system is understood here in Ontario.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I'd like to thank the member for Northumberland for his excellent question. He's also from Quinte West, I might add.

The emphasis we have on transportation has recently been recognized in a Fraser Institute study, which states as follows: "Ontario has the best transportation system in all of Canada." The study shows that Ontario received the highest overall rating in the country for passenger transportation modes. The study looked at highway systems, transit systems, and air and marine transportation, an assessment that followed a detailed and thorough analysis of the wide range of transportation factors.

The government agrees with the study's lead author, who says a province's transportation system is a critical factor in fostering a positive investment climate and facilitating economic growth and prosperity. I will, in the supplementary, indicate some of the things that we've been doing, if I get that question.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: I'm pleased to hear that our great province has been recognized by the Fraser Institute to have the best transportation system in Canada, although I must admit I'm not surprised.

It is my understanding that since 2003, the McGuinty government has invested over $1.5 billion for transit, highway infrastructure, and municipal roads and bridges in eastern Ontario alone. Ridings across the east have benefited from these investments, including my riding. I'm hoping the Minister of Transportation is able to share with this House details of those investments.

Hon. James J. Bradley: We are investing, as the member would know, record amounts in transportation, and there are benefits. For example, the $17.5-billion Move Ontario 2020 initiative will not only bring 156,000 jobs to Ontario, but it will also see $14.5 billion, or 82% of the total dollar amount, at a minimum spent in Canada. This money will be spent on engineering, design construction and rolling stock.

This is why we continue to invest in transportation in this province. We delivered on our commitment to provide 2 cents per litre of provincial gas tax revenues to municipalities as a source of long-term sustainable funding for public transit. At the Association of Municipalities of Ontario conference in Ottawa, Premier McGuinty announced a $1.1-billion investment in municipal infrastructure under the Investing in Ontario Act. In 2006, $1.2 billion—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. New question?

NURSES

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: My question is to the Premier. Premier, there was shock in health care circles yesterday when, at a time when we have a growing and an aging population and at a time when we have a serious shortage of doctors and nurses, you chose to cut health care on the backs of patients. I'm asking you, why are you not hiring the 9,000 nurses that you promised patients?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I note that we're into the last half of question period, so now the spend questions kick in. The first half was all about cutting taxes, with the logical consequence of that being gutting public services, but now they're asking us to spend more. The reality is that we've been proud to hire on 8,000 more nurses. We're looking forward to hiring more, but we can't do it as quickly as we originally planned. That's all we've said. I think that's a very responsible approach to dealing with new investments. We're going to first and foremost protect existing programs.

We have to be very careful about taking on new financial responsibilities. So we said to our nurses that we won't be able to hire them as quickly as we'd originally planned. Again, I think that's responsible.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: Well, it's unbelievable that here we have a Premier who said there would be no more increases in taxes and the first thing you did was to impose a health tax on Ontarians. You've taken $12.2 billion out of their pockets and now your priority is to cut health care funding and reduce front-line services. Do you not realize that nurses are the backbone of the health system? We're reading today that it's going to have an impact on further overcrowding in emergency rooms. Long-term-care homes can't hire enough nurses right now. You are putting patient health and safety at risk by the decision that you have made. Are you prepared to put patient lives and safety at risk?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Just by way of review, I think it is helpful if we take a look at what happened to nurses in Ontario in the last several years. Under the NDP, the number of registered nurses in Ontario fell by 3,000. Under the Conservatives, they fired 6,200. We've created 8,000 new nursing jobs. The percentage of nurses working full-time fell by 3% under the NDP, to 50.8%. They've now increased by more than 10% on our watch, and for the first time in the history of Canada we have a guarantee—a job guarantee—for nurses graduating in the province of Ontario, one of the very few jurisdictions in the world.

That's what we think of our nurses: We've got more of them working full-time, and we have a job guarantee in place.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: We hired 12,000 nurses.

Hon. David Caplan: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: According to the College of Nurses, they fired 6,200 nurses.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That's not a point of order.

The member from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek.

CHILD CARE

Mr. Paul Miller: Here comes the nice guy.

To the Minister of Community and Social Services. On October 7, the minister acknowledged new written rules for the temporary care assistance program which now deny financial support to thousands of grandparents raising their grandkids. On October 16, the minister attempted to rewrite history, claiming there was never a directive on rule changes. There's no argument that there was a rule change. To help the minister understand this, on Monday I gave her a copy of the new written rules.

Now that she has had ample time to personally review them, can she finally explain why her ministry changed the rules to ensure that all grandparents raising their at-risk grandkids will not be cut off from temporary assistance?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I know that the member of the third party is very interested about this question. I just want to let him know that in 2003 and 2004 there was a monthly average of 4,332 children for which grandparents were receiving temporary care assistance. In 2007 and 2008 there are 5,195 children. Our budget went from $11 million to almost $13 million last year. So we are increasing. I can guarantee that every grandparent or adult—because it's not only for grandparents; other adults are taking care on a temporary basis—if they are eligible, will continue to receive temporary assistance.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mr. Paul Miller: I don't know what that question was answered by; I'm not sure. I was shocked that the minister hasn't even bothered to understand her own policy, especially a policy that affects so many vulnerable grandparents and grandkids.

Yesterday, the minister stated that a grandparent raising two grandkids can receive up to $1,000 a month. Grandparents from each corner of this province are saying, "Show me the money." Erlene Weaver from Hamilton, a grandmother of three, used to receive a total of $562 a month for three kids in temporary care assistance; now she receives nothing. Why? Minister, remember that most of these grandparents do not qualify for your other programs, so please tell us how they can get this $1,000 a month—and, Minister, don't tell them to go on welfare.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: This program, temporary care assistance, is not income-tested. This member would like to have this program income-tested. When I review it, if it was income-tested, 75% of the grandparents would not receive this temporary care assistance. You review it—we're not going to do it, and we're not going to follow the member's advice.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the member from Hamilton East to withdraw his comment, please.

Mr. Paul Miller: I'll withdraw the lie part. She's not telling the truth.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the member again to withdraw the comment.

Mr. Paul Miller: This is unacceptable. This is total nonsense.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Withdraw the comment.

Mr. Paul Miller: I'm sorry; she's not telling the truth. I cannot withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Will you withdraw?

Mr. Paul Miller: No, I won't.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I will have to then name the member Paul Miller from the riding of Hamilton East.

Mr. Paul Miller was escorted from the chamber.

RENEWABLE ENERGY

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: My question is for the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure. Minister, last Thursday, EPCOR announced that the company would not go forward with the second phase of the Kingsbridge wind farm near Goderich in my riding. This is certainly disappointing news for my community. My constituents believe in the importance of renewable energy, and we have three wind farms in that area alone. Kingsbridge 1 and Ripley wind farm are both in operation, and Enbridge A and B, with a total of a 182-megawatt capacity, is under construction and is expected to go online in the next few weeks.

We are concerned. Would the minister tell us what EPCOR's announcement means for our province's commitment to increasing renewable energy?

Hon. George Smitherman: Firstly, I want to say, with respect to EPCOR's decision, that we share the disappointment, and we're very, very determined to learn all lessons which are available from it. The good news, in a sense, I suppose, is that they had had success with a 40-megawatt project earlier, and 16 of the 19 big projects related to RFPs are under construction or online.

In the next few weeks, Ontario will experience three big, new wind projects coming online in the riding of Dufferin—Caledon: Melancthon II, with 132 megawatts; Kruger Energy's project in Chatham-Kent comes online soon, with 101 kilowatts; and in the very member's riding, as she mentioned, Enbridge Ontario A and B, with 182 megawatts. Contrast that with just a few years ago: we had 15 megawatts; today, we have 531, and by the end of the year, we'll be up to 950 megawatts.

We think that we can do more, and that's why the changes that I've asked for in the integrated power system plan will influence even more greatly Ontario's desire for renewable energy.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary.

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: I am very supportive of renewable energy projects, and I think it's very important that we move towards more renewable energy. It must be a part of the energy supply mix, and these changes will contribute to cleaner air and also support our local economy. However, one of the reasons that EPCOR used to explain why their second phase did not go through was a delay in municipal and provincial approvals.

We need the minister to tell us what he is going to do in order to help companies overcome potential problems like these.

Hon. George Smitherman: As I mentioned in my earlier answer, we recognize that EPCOR had some very distinct criticisms of the way the process worked, and we take those to heart. We've made good progress for sure. We've gone from 15 megawatts to 530 in a few years, and we're going to add almost 400 more megawatts by the end of this year. But we know that we can do better. I'm going to be working very closely with government ministries—municipal affairs and environment—to see what enhancements we can bring, and also with the various energy agencies.

I think that good progress is reflected in the OEB's support for the transmission improvement from Bruce to Milton. That's very, very necessary. We'll certainly unlock more of the best wind potential that we have in the whole province of Ontario. We're going to lead to greater investments. We know that we can bring even further investment and green jobs with respect to renewable energy in the province of Ontario.

We've made great progress, we have a good foundation, and we're going to build on that and make even greater progress towards cleaner, greener energy.

SMALL BUSINESS

Mr. Norm Miller: I have a question for the Minister of Small Business and Consumer Services. Minister, there was nothing in your economic statement yesterday to help the very people who drive the economy of Ontario: small business.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business has a plan that won't cost anything and it will help small businesses. It's a three-point plan. They suggest that you waive fines and penalties for first-time non-compliance with government regulations, they suggest that you set up a single point of contact to inform small business, and they ask that you train provincial inspectors to help, rather than hurt, small business—now, that would be a novel concept. Will you agree to implement a program today based on these simple steps?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Actually, I'm very proud of the fact that we have taken very good steps to encourage and create an environment for small business in this province.

Let me just outline, for the consideration of this member and maybe for his information, some of the things that we have done. First, we have made a very concerted effort to reduce the paper burden for small business in this province. We reduced it by 24%, as I said last week in this House, in seven key ministries. Then we did it, in the second phase, in eight key ministries.

We are also moving ahead to harmonize the tax structure with our federal partners. That should also reduce the paperwork burden for small businesses.

We have reduced the capital cost allowance for small manufacturers, going back a year, and we are also working very closely with them to create—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Norm Miller: Minister, according to the legislative library, you've created 437 new regulations and removed 85. That's a five-fold increase.

In yesterday's economic statement, you did nothing to help small business. Not only that; despite Mr. McGuinty's claims that you're not raising taxes, you're actually bringing in an $11,000 tax for construction companies with your mandatory WSIB coverage for owners and leaders of companies, so you're actually hurting business at this challenging time.

Minister, that's why the Canadian Federation of Independent Business is here at Queen's Park today to meet with your colleague the Minister of Labour, to present some 25,000 letters from concerned businesses.

Minister, you know that this has nothing to do with safety, as all employees are already covered by the WSIB. Will you listen to these businesses, go to the meeting with your colleague and demand that the minister stop this foolish move?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Minister of Labour, please.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: I thank the member for the opportunity to speak to this initiative, this proposed legislation on mandatory coverage for those who are in the construction sector.

I would think that the member would not want to have an industry out there that does not have an even playing field. I would think that the member would want to protect the health and safety of all those workers. I would think that the member would want to reduce the underground economic activity that takes place in construction.

We're working with small business. We are working with the construction sector to make sure that we can address these things, to make sure that we level the playing field, to make sure that we can have stronger companies for a stronger Ontario out there.

HUMAN RIGHTS

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is for the Deputy Premier. In the gallery are Tibetan Canadians and their supporters. They believe, and we in the New Democratic Party believe, that the Premier's trip to China provides a unique opportunity to send a strong message on human rights, on how the world ought to be, to the government of China.

The message is that the situation in Tibet right now is wrong, that running roughshod over human rights is not acceptable to the people of Ontario, not acceptable to the people of Canada and not acceptable to the international community.

Will the Premier send that message? Will he tell the government of China in no uncertain terms that Ontarians expect their trading partners to respect internationally accepted standards of human rights?

Hon. George Smitherman: We welcome, again, the symbolic recognition of the people of Tibet and those people from the member's riding on this point.

I think it's a very appropriate opportunity to remind members that this House did unanimously pass a motion on the issue of Tibet, a resolution which I was proud to move and to support as a member of this Legislature: "That the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, as a longstanding friend of China, express concern with the current situation in Tibet and encourage the parties to engage in meaningful dialogue." I think the value of that motion stands today, as it did those few months ago when it was passed. I'm very, very certain that this falls in line with the tradition of Ontario and of Canada of constructive engagement on these matters.

I look forward to offering more views in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: To the Deputy Premier again: That all-party resolution that was passed on April 10 has not been played out by the Premier's trip to China. He certainly has not talked about human rights, he has not met with representatives of the Tibetan community, and if he has talked about them, where are the transcripts of such a discussion? We would like to see, on this side of the House, those transcripts made public. Again, empty words, unless they're lived out by trade trips to China.

So, again I ask: On his next trip to China, will the Premier speak about Tibet and human rights? And will he meet with Tibetan-Canadians and Students for a Free Tibet as soon as possible?

Hon. George Smitherman: I find it somewhat noteworthy that that honourable member is the one who's proposing that all transcripts of all conversations that one has be brought into the public domain. I don't think that's typically the way that individuals have operated. I remind the House that this is the honourable member who once said that the Premier hadn't met with the Dalai Lama and we had to secure the actual photographic evidence to convince her otherwise.

But most certainly I would want to give that member the assurance that the resolution of this Legislature stands as a very, very firm statement of the views of the people of the province of Ontario and that our Premier and members of the government recognize it as such. I'm very, very certain that it will form, as it always would through the process of constructive engagement, part and parcel of the relationship that we have with the nation of China.

UNIVERSITY RESEARCH

AND INNOVATION

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: My question is to the Minister of Research and Innovation.

Carleton University, in my riding of Ottawa Centre, has established a reputation on the international stage for its groundbreaking research. Ranked among the top four comprehensive universities in the country, research funding has skyrocketed from $28 million in 2000 to over $85 million in 2007. Carleton holds 23 Canada research chairs, five NSERC chairs and four endowed chairs. To date, 26 faculty members have been inducted as fellows in the Royal Society of Canada.

What is the Ministry of Research and Innovation doing to promote fundamental, basic research taking place at Carleton and across Ontario?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my friend from Ottawa Centre for the question.

Just the other day, I was able to be at the Canada Science and Technology Museum, in the great riding of Ottawa South, to make an announcement as the minister responsible for the Ontario Research Fund.

First, I'd say to my friend that we've made a commitment of some $650 million to the Ontario Research Fund, and through a peer-reviewed process, we've been able to pay for both research excellence and research infrastructure.

When I was in Ottawa with representatives of Carleton University and your new president, Dr. Roseann Runte, and also with representatives from the University of Ottawa, I was pleased to say that, between those two institutions, we'll be supporting some 11 research projects which include 47 researchers with an investment of some $1.5 million. That brings our total investment in Ottawa to the two universities—some $38.2 million to the University of Ottawa and $17.9 million—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary.

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: Statistics Canada data shows that for both males and females, those with a university degree have higher earnings than those without. On average, those with a degree make $52,250, compared to $32,750 for those without. A study by the US Census Bureau looking at earnings by level of education shows that for all workers with a Ph.D., average annual earnings stood at $81,400, compared to $54,000 for a master's and $45,000 for bachelors.

It is important that these students study and then actually work in Ontario. We need to actively lay the groundwork, investing in equipment and attracting the world's leading researchers in order to draw students to our universities and create Ontario's high-paid workforce of the future.

To the Minister of Research and Innovation: What is the ministry doing to reverse the brain drain and ensure Ontario's position to lead in the 21st century?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I can share with the House that the brain drain is gone and now it is a brain gain. Let me just share with members of the House some of the world-class talent that has been attracted to our province under our leadership: Dr. Tom Hudson came from McGill University to lead the newly formed Ontario Institute for Cancer Research, an investment by our ministry of some $347 million. Dr. Gordon Keller, a leading stem cell researcher, came from New York to Toronto to head the McEwan Centre for Regenerative Medicine. Dr.

Neil Turok, a world-leading physicist, Stephen Hawking's protégé at Cambridge, is now the new executive director of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in K-W. Dr. Jack Mandel, a top epidemiologist, is returning to his native Canada to be the first director of the University of Toronto's Dalla Lana School of Public Health. And Dr. Raymond Laflamme came from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico to become the director of the Institute for Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo. There is a—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister.

INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM FUNDING

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is for the Minister of Energy and Infrastructure and it's about prioritizing for infrastructure. The McGuinty government, having manoeuvred Ontario into a deficit, finally concedes that there is a great need to prioritize government spending. Over the summer, this Liberal government threw a casino party that cost Ontario taxpayers $2.3 million, money that could and should have been used, for example, to fund health care services at struggling York region hospitals. It could have bought CAT scanners, MRI machines for any of them or funded the long-awaited master planning stage for a future hospital in Vaughan.

Is the $2.3 million spent for a casino party in Windsor your idea of a priority? Do you place entertainment ahead of much-needed investment in infrastructure for the health and well-being of Ontario communities like York region?

Hon. George Smitherman: I do find it curious that the honourable member stands in his place and asks such a question when his party has in place a plan to cut health care spending by $3 billion, which would obviously be a far more destructive circumstance for York region.

On his question, which was about prioritization of infrastructure initiatives, I can tell the honourable member that we continue to work through the progress of ReNew Ontario, a five-year, $30-billion plan which has seen unprecedented levels of investment in infrastructure—this year alone, $9.9 billion of investment.

I'd be very, very happy to talk to the honourable member about the rationale associated with the casino introducing an entertainment facility, which has the effect of bringing more clients onsite and enhancing the revenue there, which is important, of course, for the programs that it funds and important for the thousands of people who enjoy employment as a result.

Mr. Peter Shurman: That minister can justify a casino but he can't justify why he denies essential health dollars and continues to insist that we have a plan to cut health spending when it's just not so.

Tonight, I will be joining my community at a Vaughan Health Care Foundation gala to raise funds for the Vaughan hospital, and I believe that minister will be in attendance as well. I know that all those present will want to know the plans for investment in their cause.

Minister, it is time to put your infrastructure dollars where your mouth is. Since you appear to agree that health care is a priority higher on the list than any casino party, tell this House what funds you have put aside for health care infrastructure funding, notably the master planning phase for the Vaughan hospital.

Hon. George Smitherman: Apparently the honourable member doesn't live in his riding, because if he did, just driving there, through the various routes that are available to him, he couldn't help but notice the ongoing investment that our government's making in infrastructure, especially in hospital infrastructure related to the 905 region. I urge the honourable member: Go to Newmarket, the riding of his colleague, and see the emerging regional services that are provided there. I urge the member: Go just over to Richmond Hill to York Central and see the hospital tower that's emerging.

Look just slightly to your west and see in Brampton an $800-million hospital. All of these pieces are evidence of the renewal, the renaissance of hospitals, and it stands in very sharp contrast to a party that has on its record closing 28 hospitals. Instead, we keep them open, we rebuild them, we make them bigger and we make them better.

PUBLIC HEALTH

M me France Gélinas: My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. As of today, the number of suspected E. coli cases thought to have originated at Harvey's restaurant in North Bay has climbed to 190, with 36 cases confirmed. Like during the listeriosis outbreak, the public has remained calm about this E. coli outbreak due to the swift and transparent action of Dr. Catherine Whiting, North Bay's medical officer of health.

My question is simple: When will the McGuinty government follow through on the number one recommendation from the Walkerton inquiry and ensure that every public health unit has a full-time, fully qualified medical officer of health?

Hon. David Caplan: Every public health unit has a full-time, fully qualified medical officer of health. Some are in permanent positions and some are in acting positions.

I just want to say that I am confident that the necessary steps are being taken by the local public health unit in North Bay to ensure that the cases are being fully investigated. We have taken the steps necessary to protect public safety.

The Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care is working in collaboration with our colleagues at the North Bay public health unit, with our colleagues at the Ontario Agency for Health Protection and Promotion, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and with the Public Health Agency of Canada to investigate the outbreak.

I am very proud of Dr. Whiting and her team, who reacted with incredible swiftness to be able to protect North Bay residents and residents of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: I hate to differ, but back when the Walkerton inquiry was in full swing, a third of the public health units did not have a full-time, fully qualified medical officer of health. On October 23, 2008, one third of public health units in Ontario still do not have a full-time, fully qualified medical officer of health. But Dr. Whiting is a qualified, competent physician and she has taken the right steps with this crisis to ensure that there was immediate and transparent communication.

I would like to know when this government will provide clear communication guidelines to all—whether it be public health units, hospitals or long-term-care facilities—so that when outbreaks arrive we have this kind of clear, concise communication throughout Ontario like Dr. Whiting has demonstrated.

Hon. David Caplan: The member asks when there will be guidelines. They're already in place, as the member in her own question proves: that Dr. Whiting in fact did the right thing, took the necessary steps, provided that information to the public, just as we have, and as we have seen through other public health outbreaks that have occurred.

The member has asked about medical officers of health. She should know, and all members should know, that in our recent contract with the Ontario Medical Association there is a provision to be able to do something about the disparity in the wage rates that are paid for medical officers of health. A concerted effort is being undertaken by both the Ontario Medical Association and the Ontario government to redress the long-standing disparity.

It's this kind of collaborative effort which stands in stark contrast to the lack of effort that we've seen in previous governments. I have every confidence that, working with our medical partners, we will be able to ensure strength in public health for all Ontarians.

VISITOR

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I'd just ask the members—I should have introduced the individual earlier—to welcome in the east members' gallery Maurizio Gherardini, vice-president of the Toronto Raptors. Welcome today, sir.

DEFERRED VOTES

APOLOGY ACT, 2008 /

LOI DE 2008 SUR

LA PRÉSENTATION D'EXCUSES

Deferred vote on the motion for second reading of Bill 108,

An Act respecting apologies / Projet de loi 108, Loi concernant la présentation d'excuses.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Call in the members. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1134 to 1139.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Mr. Bentley has moved second reading of Bill 108,

An Act respecting apologies, 2008. All those in favour, please rise one at a time and be recognized by the Clerk.

Ayes

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): All those opposed?

Nays

The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 66; the nays are 5.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I declare the motion carried.

Second reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?

Hon. Christopher Bentley: I request that the bill be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice Policy.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Justice Policy.

There being no further business, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1143 to 1300.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PUBLIC LIBRARIES

Mr. Norm Miller: On the occasion of Ontario Public Library Week, I'm most pleased to offer my congratulations to the Bracebridge Public Library on its 100th anniversary. The Bracebridge Public Library was made possible by a donation from entrepreneur and philanthropist Andrew Carnegie. Headed by CEO and chief librarian Cathryn Rodney, the library has been celebrating its centennial with a number of different events, including a tribute to Andrew Carnegie, an official birthday party, a cruise, an antiques appraisal event and a genealogy workshop.

Patrick Boyer's commemorative book Local Library, Global Passport: The Evolution of a Carnegie Library chronicles the library's history and was launched as part of its centennial celebration. The Boyer family has been connected with the Bracebridge Public Library for many years. Patrick Boyer's father, former MPP Robert J. Boyer, was a long-time supporter of the library. The library's Robert J. Boyer reading room was opened in his honour several years ago. His mother, Patricia M. Boyer, formerly Miss Patricia Johnson, was chief librarian from 1934 to 1938. The library's Patricia M. Boyer children's library is named after Mrs. Boyer.

We are very fortunate in Parry Sound—Muskoka to have a number of great community libraries.

I also would like to send my congratulations to the MacTier Public Library on its grand opening this Saturday, October 25.

I hope that you all join me in thanking the staff, volunteers and benefactors of all our public libraries across Ontario.

GOVERNMENT INVESTMENTS

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: It's with great pleasure that I rise in the House today to inform all members of the exciting new initiatives taking place in Kitchener-Waterloo to ensure that it continues to grow and prosper. Those of us from the area and from the riding of Kitchener—Conestoga already know it's a great place to experience the best of urban and country living.

The McGuinty government is committed to responding to the challenges of growing cities through a series of funding initiatives that will improve the lives of all residents.

Some of these recent initiatives include: The University of Waterloo received $8 million for its downtown Kitchener health sciences campus; Wilfrid Laurier received $3 million to expand its renowned music facility; Conestoga College received $21 million to expand programs in skilled trades and to welcome 3,000 more students and apprentices; the region of Waterloo received $27.6 million for 945 new rental and supportive housing units, $2.2 million for 160 housing allowance units, and $1.8 million for 185 home ownership units.

These investments in education and affordable housing symbolize the McGuinty government's belief in strong cities and underscore our commitment to improving the lives of all Ontarians.

CHILD CARE

Ms. Sylvia Jones: I must put on the record my disgust for the way in which the Minister of Community and Social Services is treating thousands of grandparents looking after grandchildren in Ontario.

Temporary care assistance is a program that gave $230 per month to assist grandparents with the additional costs associated with caring for their grandchildren, many of whom have additional and extraordinary expenses as a result of medical conditions such as fetal alcohol syndrome.

To date, the minister has said that if the grandparents need help, they can apply for social assistance—not true. The minister must know that once an Ontario resident turns 65, they no longer qualify for social assistance and would be turned away. The minister has also said that these grandparents can apply for kinship benefits—again, not true. If the grandchildren are already in the care of grandparents, they do not qualify for the kinship money.

As a result of this minister's decision to remove temporary care assistance, as many as 15,000 Ontario children will be left with no assistance. Where will these children go if their grandparents cannot afford to continue to care for them?

It's time that this minister stopped putting up barriers, does the right thing and gives back grandparents the temporary care assistance so that these grandchildren can continue to live with their own family in a caring and nurturing home. Grandparents can't and should not be abandoned by this uncaring Liberal government.

HERBERT WILLIAMS FIRE EQUIPMENT

Mr. Bas Balkissoon: I'm pleased to inform the Legislature of a success story of a family-owned business in my riding of Scarborough—Rouge River. The original company, Herbert Williams Fire Equipment, incorporated in 1908, recently celebrated 100 years in business in Scarborough, Ontario. Herbert I, Herbert II and grandsons Bill and George sold and serviced fire equipment to many of Toronto's established institutions, such as the Empire, National and Toronto