VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE: PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, APRIL lS, 1983 NO. 21

.;..· April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1041 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (_Russell) : Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEJI..KER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the han. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), in his Budget Speech of March 17·th., advised the House that a major study of hospital operating costs would be undertaken during this fiscal year.

As han. members will realize, over the past five years hospital operating costs have been increasing beyond the growth in governrn~nt revenues, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to finance the demands of the system as presently structured. As well, meeting the financing requirements of hospitals is made doubly difficult in the context of declining rate of growth in Established Programme Financing payrnens from the federal government. Given the importance and the sensitivity of our health system, government felt that the matter should be studied very carefully and, to that end, Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce that government is today appointing a Royal commission to study hospital and nursing home costs. The members of this commission will be: Mr. David Orsborn, LL.B., and David Orsborn- AN HON. MEMBER: Orsborn? MR. HOUSE: Orsborn, yes - was a former hospital administrator before becoming a lawyer. He is Chairman. Mr. Garfield Pynn, from the business school at the university, and Dr. Paul Patey, who has had about fifteen years experience throughout the Province in various capacities as a medical doctor. He has also served on a \ previous roya~ commission. 2288

April 15, 1983 Tape No . 1041 NM - 2 MR. HOOSE: The terms of reference of the commission will include , but not be limited to :{

l) To determinewhy hospital and nursing home costs are increasing at a rate that is higher that the normal rate of inflation, to include and not be limited to: (

a) the ir.lpact of medical, nursing and other educational proqrammes; 2289

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1042 ah-1 MR.HOUSE: (

b) the impact of increased medical manpower;

(2) To recommend what operating efficiencies may be achieved in hospitals and nursing homes, individually and collectively, by streamling systems, sharing services, and in other areas.

(3) To determine the appropriate level of funding required by hospitals and nursing homes to operate current approved servic~s. (4) To project the increases that will occur in hospital and home costs for the next five years for current programs and future planned services as outlined in the Five-Year Plan. (S)To recommend appropriate levels of services and/or appropriate alternatives for program reductions which would have the minimum negative impact on health care for econsideration by government should it be financially impossible to continue services and programs at existing levels or recommend levels in view of the limited financial resources available to the Province.

(6) To recommend appropriate measures for the generation of revenues to meet growing hospital and nursing home costs, taking into account:- (

a) current approved services; (

b) future planned services; (

c) the fiscal capacity of the Province~ and (

d) projected Federal revenues.

(7) And to provide report to government by February 15,1984. Hospital and nursing homes services are an extremely important and expensive element of the health care system and one of the most important priorities of government. This year the budget for medical services - and this is an addition in this particular paper, medical services should be inserted there before hospitals~medical services, hospitals and nursing homes will account for mare than 25 per cent of the total provincial operating budget. The matter of increasing hospital costs is of major concern to all provincial governments in 229D

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1042 ah-2 MR. HOUSE: Ganada. In oth~r provinces studies similar to this one are being announced today and being undertaken. There is a need for full public debate and discussion on this important matter, and in announcing the appointment of the Royal Commission today, we feel that the Terms of Reference for the Commission will provide an opportunity for full public debate on hospital and nursing home costs. Thank you. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 2291

April 15, 1983 Tape 1043 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: about it 1 Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt there is need for full public debate on the cost of operating the health care programme in this Province. There are some good people, I notice, on this committee,and no doubt they will do a good job, but let nobody be fooled, Mr. Speaker, by what is happening here.

When you see a royal commission being set up like the one that was announced just a few moments ago by the ministe~, it is an admission of failure,that the department under the hon. minister has not been able to carry out its responsibility and its duties the way that it should. There is really no need of this kind of commission if the department, which has escalated over the years, Mr. Speaker, as one of the biggest spenders in government - it is ~n the top three. They have tremendously increased their staff; they have the expertise. It is too bad they do not have the minister to show some leadership.

And it is only because of the lackadaisical way, it is only because of the ineptness and the incompetence of the minister and the administration that we find ourselves today faced witn the appointment of a royal commission. I have a lot of confidence in the people who have been appointed, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that they will do a good job. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I tabled in the House a telegram to Mr. William Hopper, President 2292

April 15, 1983 Tape 1043 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: of Petro-Canada, concerning the recent announcement by the hon . William Rompkey, which indicated clearly that $500 million involving ten wells would be spent over the next five years off the Labrador coast by the Labrador group of companies of which Petro-canada is operator. I had said in that telegram to Mr . Hopper that this 2293

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1044 MJ - l PREMIER PECKFORD: was different from the information that he had provided to me a few weeks earlier. I have now spoken to Mr. Hopper and he assures me that his original information to me was correct. Mr. Rompkey's statement left the distinct impression- as rhe Evening Telegram's headline entitled "$500 Million to be Spent on Oil Search off Labrador" confirms-that $500 million would be spent over the next five years, no ifs ands or buts. I have learned from ~. Hopper that some time ago.-and he had informed the Petroleum Direcorate and the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr.

Marshall) and myself -exploration arrangements that were due to expire were renewed and that as a result, the compnaies may have to spend $500 million, not that they would have to spend it. In other words, Mr, Speaker, the companies involved in this announcement have the right under the exploration agreement to drop acreage and therefore reduce their --effort. They could, in fact, drop significant acreage that they wouid not drill at all. They could do that today, tomorrow.

In my talks the companies, through Petro Canada, have already said and said again yesterday that the likelihood is that there will be a reduced programme, not an increased programme, in 1984 compared with 1983. This announcement is similar -· and it is the main reason, Mr. Speaker, why l ;raise it now is s.i,milar to announcements niade in Nova Scotia over the past several months which also have purported to spend vast sums of money.

Once again, this is potential money the . spending of which will only occur if significant discoveries are found and if over the length of the agreement the companies retain all their existing acreage - two conditions which very rarely occur, hardly eyer occur, 2294

April 15, 1983 Tape 1045 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: It should also be pointed out that another sound reason by the companies for their view that the Labrador exploration is likely to be reduced rather than expanded is because the companies wish to put their money also into Newfoundland and Labrador but into lower risk,more productive areas - such as the area near Hibernia. Expansion of exploration activity from an investor's point of view sees expansion of the Hibernia area and reduction of activity for the next two years off Labrador and Nova Scotia. So where the expansion and exploration activity is not where Mr.

Rompkey's announcement says it is going to happen, it is off the Hibernia area and not off the Labrador area. Mr. Speaker, I wish it were true that $500 million will be spent on offshore exploration off Labrador. We could all rejoice in that kind of announcement. But, Mr. Speaker, I must point out that such a statement is incorrect. False hopes must not be raised. The facts are that $500 million could be spent, but the likelihood from what has happened in the past in such agreements and from what the companies told me as late as yesterday afternoon is that less will be spent off Labrador • . In

summary, then, Mr. Speaker, there is no commitment by the oil companies that they will spend $500 million and drill ten wells. There is the potential for such and their best information to · date says it will be less. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 2295

April 15, 1983 Tape 1045 PI< - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure after listening to that statement whether this a,dministJ;"ation, whether the hon. gentleman welcomes this kind of news or not. We are sorry, Mr. Speaker, if Mr. Rompkey hurt the hon. gentle­ man's feelings, but the fact of the matter is that somebody has to carry on with that development. Somebody has to get the holes drilled, carry on the exploration and drilling so that the oil companies will be in a position to start the production of oil and gas off our shores.

And if the hon. gentleman does not want to participate in that plan, then he should stop throwing o.bstructions in the way of peC)ple who want to get on with the job, of people who want to create employment, to create jobs 2296

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1046 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: in this Province 1of people who want to make it possible for the suppliers of material in this Province to be able to do so. So the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, if his feelings are hurt, you think he would be too ashamed to come into this House and read that kind of a statement. You would think he would just merely express his views in the secrecy of the Cabinet and say, 'Look, I am disturbed, I am upset and I am not at all pleased with Mr. Rompkey making these positive statements abou~ the development of the resource, We do not have any input into it.

That is our own fault. We are just laying back and doing nothing. We are not making any attempt to negotiate - an agreement.

So therefore the federal government can only go ahead unilaterally on their own and make thes ·e decisions.' No mistake, Mr. speaker, about it that since the Newfoundland Appeals Court made its decision there a few weeks ago,that the Government of Canada obviously- and it must be apparent to everybody­ are going ahead full speed with the development of that resource and the Premier and his administration are sitting back, they have no dialogue, they do not know what is · going on and everyt~e somebody makes a pos ·itive statement about the development of the resource we can expect the han. gentleman to expre:;; :s· a view that his feelings are hurt~ Now · it is too bad.

We all feel sorry for the hen. gentleman. It is . about time he started governing the Province and show · some administrative ability rather than just lay back and sulk and twiddle his th:urilbs everytime somebody doeS' something positive SOME HON :. MEMBERS -: H:ear , hear . 2297

r Ap ril 15 , 19 83 Ta pe No. 1046 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell}: I would like to welcome to the galleri .es today a delegation from the Town Council of St. Alban's, Bay d'Espoir, headed by Mayor Bert Strickland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea r, hear. MR .. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: ORAL QUES TIONS The hon. ~eader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer hon. members to a Ministerial Statement that was read in this House by the Premier on Monday, April 11th, in which he charged that the federal government was trying to transfer its deficits to the provinces.

In that statement, and in line 'Y'ith the statement that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) made this morning 1 I would like to ask a few questions. 2298

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1047 NM - l MR. NEARY: The Premier said that the provinces would have to consider raising taxes or increase the size of the provincial deficit. Could I ask the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, if his administration is now planning to increase taxes in the wake of that statement that he made here on April 11? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has not been around this hon. House for the last few weeks, he has not witnessed the budget that ~as brought down by the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) , he has not been a, _,part of the estimates committee, the Committee of the Whole when it is being considered~ The Government of Newfoundland-has taken a position already, and it is reflected in the budget, that is that we are into deficit financing, a $28 million _ deficit on current account where the great costs are in health care. We have agreed, the Government of Newfoundland has made a decision that we will incur a $28 million current account deficit on a budget of $2.1 billion. Interesting to note 1 yesterday the PEI government, which has a $430 million budget, has an $18 million deficit.

So what we have decided to do is two things, Mr. Speaker, and I am absolutely astounded - and I am sorry if I have to use the word, and I apologize •' before I use it but I have to use it - at the ignorance of the hon. the Leader of the Oppo~ition. We are 1 number one, deficit financing this year and, _number two, as a second approach, the Minister of Health (Mr. House) announced a few minutes ago a royal commission on health costs. That is what we are doing as it relates to the federal government's cutback on EPF. 2299

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1047 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: The Government of Newfoundland, as one provincial government, has taken initiatives to respond to the federal government's reduction in transfer payments to post-secondary education, and health care costs. One, we have assumed incurred deliberately,a current account deficit and, number two, we have established a royal commission on health costs. This is the approach that the Government of Newfoundland is taking. we think it is a sane, realistic approach,given the economic times that everybody is under and the economic restraint that everybody is under.

And that is the two-pronged approach that we are taking. We continue with the rest of the provinces. The statement that I made the other day, Mr. Speaker, on be~lf of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), was a statement that was jointly made in Toronto that same day, and a document published proving that the cutback would severely restrict and severely harm the delivery system in post-secondary education and health care all across this nation, 2300

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1048 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: and we are forced to take certain measures. So the two measures we have taken1and I cannot understand for the life of me how the Leader of the Opposition did not know this, are, one, to incur a deficit and, two, to establish a Royal Commission. MR.NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): a supplementary. MR.NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. gentleman does not understand the way the system works. That is one_of the great weaknesses with the hon. gentleman.

He is a great little fellow for playing little petty,amateur politics but he cannot administer, he cannot ~overn. He is a very"poor administrator1and I regret to say that, Mr. Speaker. MR.MARSHALL: A point of order. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is the Question· Period. It is not a period for making speeches, even deficient, defective and bad speeches like the hon. gentleman is making. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would remind han. members that the Question Period is designed to ask as many questions and get as many answers as possible, and,therefore,both the questions and the answers should be very brief. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is regretable that the hon. gentleman is such a poor administrator that he does not understand. But let me now ask the hon. gentleman if he is saying this, that there will be no further increases in taxes in this fiscal year and that the deficit as announced in the Budget Speech by the Minister of Finance (Dr. 2301

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1048 ah-2 MR. NEARY: Collins) will not exceed $27.5 million? Is that what the hon. gentleman is saying? MR.SPEAKER (RUssell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number one, let me just respond to the preliminary comments made by the Leader of the Opposition.

Of the provinces of Canada that have been managing their budgets over the last number of years,we are very proud to report, Mr.Speaker, as we have done on a number of occasions,that the two neighbouring provinces, the closest provinces to Newfoundland, I guess, Nova Scotia and the province of Quebec, both have gotten credit downgradings by the credit rating agency of North America and Newfoundland has not. And in the last twenty-four hours_we have received information about the PEI budget, Mr.

Speaker, a,very, very, salient fact,an $18 million deficit on a $436 million budget and we -,_have an $28 million defict on a $2.1 billion budget. Now that is not bad management, Mr. Speaker, to answer the Leader of the Opposition's charge that somehow this government does not know how to manage the finances of this Province and our two neighbouring provinces have taken 2302

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1049 MJ - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: credit downgradings. Mr. Speaker, we have outlined our policy, our budget is there for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to read, the Ministerial Statement by the Hinister of Health (Hr. House) just released is there for the Leader of the Opposition to read. vfuat a question to ask a Premier or a leader of any government anywhere in the Western world or anywhere in the world, •can you guarantee me that the deficit of $28 million as predicted the other day in the budget is what it will be this time next March?' Mr. Speaker! What a naive question to ask.

Every single government in the world over the last year has seen its revenues fall, Can anybody predict with 100 per cent certainty how many dollars we are going to take in in ' retail sales tax between now and the end of March 1984? Can anyone predict exactly how many dollars and cents with 100 per cent certainty how much money we are going to take in from the sale of cigarettes or the sale of liquor and all the other revenue generating measures that a government brings in? Of course not, Mr. Speaker, everybody knows that.

And to ask the question demonstrates a lack of understanding by the Leader of the Oppostion on the realities that governments in Western world face today , MR. S • NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, just as we suspected the day the budget was read, there was inaccurate estimating by the Minister of Finance (Or . Collins) and the han . gentleman cannot assure us that there will be no increase in taxes this year. The reason Newfoundland's credit rating has not been lowered, Mr. Speaker, is because it i,s already as low as it can go. MR.

HODDER: The lowest in Canada. 2303

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1049 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: And as far as Prince Edward Island is concerned the han. gentlemen should have seen the latest edition of The Atlantic Business Magazine where there is fear in Prince Edward Island that the Canadian Government may have to take them over. So if I were the han. gentleman I would not worry about what is happening in Prince Edward Island. They have a much lower provincial debt and a much lower deficit than we· do in this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary to the hon. gentleman. ,·.,will the Premier assure the House and the people of this Province, will he state categorically that they will not consider putting fees on Medicare in this Province or increase the cost of hospital beds or tamper with anything in the delivery of health care until the royal commission makes its report to this House? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, why do you think that we set up 2304

April 15, 1983 Tape 1050 EC -·1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the royal commission in the beginning? Why are we going to spend $200,000 or $300,000 or however much it is going to take? It is a royal commission ,; not just an inquiry, not just a task force or a committee. We have established a royal commission, the most that a government can do in appointing committees with status,to get the kind of infor­ mat ion we need.

Obviously we are going to depend upon the royal commission's report for the establish­ ment of health policy for the next four, five, six or seven years into the future, otherwise we would not have established it. So the question really does not deserve an answer, Mr. Speaker, because the answer has already been given by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his budget and by the Minister of Health (Mr. House) in his statement today.

We wish to have informed public debate, public hearings around the Province for associations, lobby groups, interest groups, individuals and so on to get involved in a lively public debate with presentations to the royal commission on the future of health care costs in this Province and how they can be realistically managed and handled. Therefore we have established a royal commission which was referred to in the budget and wh~ch now has become a reality today by the Minister of Health. That is the way that the government wishes to proceed, Mr. Speaker, and that is the way we are going to proceed.

The royal commission's report will form the basis of the direction that this government wishes to take in health care policy for the next five or six years. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {Russell) : The hen. the member for Terra Nova. 2305

April 15, 1983 Tape 1050 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) re her statement yesterday. And, Mr. Speaker, I hardly know how to ask this question today because we do not know what the situation is and we certainly do not want to muddy the waters. We want to remain neutral in this teacher lockout as we have been doing right throughout. We have one concern, Mr. Speaker, namely, to get the school open and to get the students and teachers back there. We want the educational system functioning.

So on the basis of the minister's statement yesterday, as I say, I hardly know how to approach . it. I will ask the minister since her statement yesterday respecting the moratorium and requesting that schools open on Monday and the collective bargaining process begin, I am wondering whether the minister has anything new to report. I did hear a news report this morning that the minister was going to make a statement today, and certainly if the minister is going to make a statement today, this ought to be the place to make it. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The Minister of Education. 2306

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1051 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I had hoped to be able to make a Ministerial Statement in the time period allotted for that purpose a few minutes ago. However, I could not do that then because what I had hoped to do was to read to hon. members the text of a letter over my signature sent to the President of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association this morning which had not been received by him during the time for Ministerial Statements.

A minute or two ago I received word that my letter was in fact received by the NTA President and now, with the permission of all hon. members, I wuld like to read the text of the letter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: After the Question Period. MS. VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will be quite happy to wait until after the Question Period - MR. LUSH: So do. But we do not want you to use Question Period for it. MS. VERGE: - and then ask for leave of all hon. members to make a Ministerial Statement. That is what I had intended to do. MR. LUSH: There is a place for it. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.

LUSH: Mr. Speaker, we would like to do that after the Question Period. We do not want to use the Question Period. PREMIER PECKFORD: r.m. LUSH: Do you want me to answer the question? No, I will sit down and give my colleagues a chance to pursue something else, Mr. Speaker. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. HISCOCK: The hon. member for Eagle River. Here comes the stranger. With regard to the stranger, there is such a thing as a flu going around the Provine and the next time I have the flu I will get a doctor's note and bring it to the Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2307

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1051 SD - 2 MR . HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Education. The Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) ended up saying to the university students that they had until May 15 1 I believe, to get back with a proposal-with regard to raising of loans for post-secondary education up to $900. Has she received any reply from the students at the trade school and the university yet? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MS. VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, I am having a meeting at 2:30 p.m. this afternoon with representatives of the Council of the Students 1 Union of Memorial University to discuss the changes we proposed in our student aid plan. I have to remind everyone that those changes will not make any difference at all for the approximately one­ third of our Province's post-secondary education students in the most needy category who all along had been borrowing the maximum available from the Canada Student Loan Programme and then receiving the maximum grants or · free money from our provincial government.

Those people will not be affected by the changes we have proposed. But I am looking forward to having the meeting with the CSU representatives this afternoon.

I am also expecting to hear back from the student leaders at the College of Trades and Technology and the College of Fisheries before May 91 which is the deadline set at the students' request for their input to government before we finalize our decisions' on the changes to the student aid plan, expecially the changes in the eligibility criteria, which I have told them maybe subject to some modification .: after we have the benefit of their advice and input .• The reason the students asked for that much 2308

April 15, 1983 Tape 1052 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: time to give their input is that some of them, especially those at the University, have to write exams now and the process of writing exams would detract from their effort in formula~ing recommendations on changes to our student aid plan . MR. SPEAKER (Russell ) : The hon. member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK: So could the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} informed this House if there is any change with regard to the government changing its policy of having $900 ceiling loan before students qualify for any grant or bursary? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The han.

Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, I just finished saying that I have told the student leaders that I will wait and government will wait until we receive their recommendations, which we want to have before May 9, before we will finalize our decisions about the changes that we will make in our student aid plan to make it fair and equitable, and to direct most of the aid to the most needy students, but at the same time to recognize the fact that the federal government has reduced Established programmes Financing for post-secondary education beyond a --level it had undertaken to provide under the previous arrangement, making it much more difficult for our provincial government,with all our problems, to maintain the programmes that we had formerly.

And Newfoundland and Labrador has had by far the most generous student aid plan in the whole country. By a wide margin · students in our Province have gotten a much bigger chunk of their aid in the form of grants than loans,and by a wide margin our students have gotten 2309

Jj1 April 15, 1983 Tape 1052 PK - 2 MS . VERGE: on average much higher grants, free money .from our Province,than their counterparts in the other provinces of Canada which partic ipate in the Canada Student Loa .n programme. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary ., Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) ; The hon. member:for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Could the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge) inform this House with regards to the high unemployment among our youth,and now the university and trade scl'lools will soo .n be finished and those stl,ldent .s will be on the job market, can the minister inform this Bouse what plans of action she is undertaking with the Minist .er of Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and the Minister of Youth (Mr. Simms) to come up with programme for youth employment this Summer? 231D

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1053 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I think that question should be fielded by the minister primarily responsible, my colleague, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). MR. DINN: . Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. NEARY: We had a ruling on that I believe yesterday, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the reason we are so strong on this, if you allow this to happen then the minister would make his statement and he would pass it on to the Premier, and then the Premier would pass it on to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), and that would be the end of the Question Period. You just cannot have that, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council,to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: If I may, Mr.

Speaker, it is also a rule in Beauchesne, and it is a rule of common sense as well I shoulfrthink, that one should address one's questions to the minister responsible. So I would think, for the sake of the orderliness of the Question Period1the hen. gentlemen mi.ght like to take a post graduate course over the weekend and find who is responsible for what in the government and address their questions accordingly. 2311

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1053 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! To that point of order, certainly if the question should better be fielded and asked of the Minister of Labour and Manpower maybe the Leader of the Opposition, or one of his colleagues, would like the ask the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. NEARY: No, we would not. SOME HON. MEMBERS: .. Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge), I wonder if · the minister can inform th .e Kouse what the policy of her department is, or the policy of the government, respecting applications being made by school boards, or committees of school boards, sub-committees of school boards, making applications for monies to repair schools, to -renovate .schools, to repair gyms, and build gyms, and all this sort df thing, under the various federal job creation programmes? Can the minister inform us just what the policy of this government is respecting these applications? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

This provincial government has a policy which recongizes our constitution. Our constitution provides that there is a partnership in education between our provincial government and the recognized churches which had rights in education at the time of our Confederation with Canada in 194~. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the rights of the churches in education is that of allocation of public funds for school construction. Monies voted by this Legislature for school construction across our Province are h~nded by our administration in block form to the church authorities, to the Denominational Education Committees.

The DECs have complete discretion over the use of those funds. 2312

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1053 NM -3 MS. VERGE: The DECs alone, without any reference to any politician, anyone on this side of the House - MR. LUSH: A lot of nonsense. Trash. Nonsense. Trash. ?-15. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I would like the member opPosite to repeat that to Archbishop Penney and to Bishop Mate and to the other leaders of the recognized churches of our Province, and I thi.nk the member opposite would find that what I am saying will be fully borne out by the respected church authorities in our Province. MR. NEARY: Do not be so silly. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the policy of our administration- 2313

_, April 15, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MS VERGE: Tape 1054 EC - 1 Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, thank you.

The policy of our administration respecting the spending of public funds corning from the federal government for school construction for capital projects in education in this Province is consistent with the constitution and with the policy previously articulated about spending of provincial government funds, that is, federal government funds have to be channelled through the provincial government to the Denominational Education Committees who then will direct them to the most urgently needed projects across the Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this is the procedure that was quite correctly followed by the federal government in times of happier relationships betw€en the federal government and the provincial government when the Department of Regional Economic Expansion was in its heyday and was effectively addressing the need - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS VERGE: - to reduce regional economic disparity across our country, when the federal government .through DREE spent a lot of money building schools across our Province,commonly known as DREE schools- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS VERGE: - Mr. Speaker, in that instance some years ago of the federal government constructing DREE schools, those federal government funds were correctly channelled through the provincial government to the DECs. The DECs were fully involved and they decided which projects 2314

April 15, 1983 Tape 1054 EC - 2 MS VERGE: were actually made possible with those public funds. Mr. Speaker, I have tried to answer the member's question. I regret that he has been talking all the time I have been trying to give a good explanation. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for We just heard nothing but a pile of nonsense, a pile of nonsense! These school boards make applications to get moneys under these federal job creation programmes.

It has nothing to do with the constitution, nothing in the world~ Can the minister tell how many applications, how many projects were approved by the federal government, and rejected by the Province? Can the minister tell the House how many were approved? MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS VERGE: The hon. the Minister of Mr.

Speaker, the principle tha.t I just enunciated, one enshrined in our constitution, one accepted by the churches of our Province, applies to capital funding, applies to the use of public funds from the provincial government and the federal government for the construction of new classrooms,for the building of schools. It has no reference to operating funding, which is handled primarily through 2315

April 15, 1983 Tape 1055 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: provincial government sources, but also it is supplemented through local school taxes and other means available to the local and regional school boards. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Is the minister aware that one of the applications in to one of these federal job creation programmes, it was under NEED actually, was an application to remove urea formaldehyde from a school in Charlottetown? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I have heard something about that on the news the last couple of evenings, and I am not aware that there is any problem for that school board accepting that funding for removing the offensive .,material that is creating a health hazard there. MR. LUSH: The problem is the minister will not give any money. MR . SPEAKE R: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it would appear to us that the minister is being penny-wise and pound-foolish. The Province has an opportunity to get capital works money, to get projects carried out that will not cost the taxpayers of this Province a cent, MR.

LUSH: She is hiding behind the constitution. MR. NEARY: She is hiding behind the constitution. It will not cost the provincial treasury a cent. For instance, in the case .of Port au Choix where the community wanted to build MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is making a speech and perhaps he should ask the question. MR. NEARY: It was a good speech too, Mr. Speaker. It is a pity I could not carry on with it. Is the minister aware that in Port au Choix,where the community wanted to build a gYIT~asium on to the school down 2316

April lS, 1983 MR. NEARY: clearance - MR. MARSHALL: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Council, on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Tape lOSS PK - 2 there,and they got their· On a point of order, Mr. Order, please! The hon. President of the Your Honour has just drawnto the attention of the hon. Leade= of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) the fact that he was out of order, but the hen. Leader of the Opposition persists in flaunting Your Honour's ruling and continuing on in exactly the same vein he was on when he was called to order by Your Honour.

Now you know there are rules in this House and there are procedures that everyone has to comply with,and I suggest that if the hon. gentlemen cannot comply and cannot accept Your Honour's ruling1 there is an obvious proceeding that we will have to take. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: to that point of order. MR. NEARY: To that point of o+der, The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, obviously the hen. gentleman was not listening to ~he question. I said, 'Is the minister aware,' and I believe that was in the form of a question. I know, Mr.

Speaker, they would like to run this House and this Province like Nazi Germany. We have a couple of Hitlers over there now. But, Mr. Speaker, the question was perfectly in order1 it was in keeping with the rules of the House, and if I was the hen. gentleman I would be the one to go out and do the course on the weekend, not only on rules, but I would go down to Mrs. McBride and do a course in self-development, good etiquette and manners. 2317

April 15, 1983 Tape 1055 PK - 3 SOME :a:oN. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! .MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The Chair recognized tne hon. Leader of the Oppositi .on on a supplementary question. ;.s I mentioned a few days a.go, there is a reference in Beauchesne to the fact that a supplementary question should not need any

preamble wnatsoever • MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2318

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1056 MJ - 1 MR. S.NEARY: Is the minister aware that in Port au Choix where the community wanted to build a gymnasium on to the school that all the clearances were obtained from the various authorities but it was rejected by the Department of Education? Why did the Department of Education in that case reject an application to get a gymnasium free ·· of ch.arge, a gift to the Province, that would not cost the taxpayers of this Province one penny? HS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, HR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the -Minister of Education, MS. VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, what the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) just said is essentially not correct, What I am aware of is that the federal government ignored th.e provincial government, ignored the Department of Education, ignored the Catholic Education Committee and dealt directly with people in Port au Choix - MR. J. HODDER: It was the people wh.o put in for the project. MS. VERGE: -in offering them part only, a fracti.on of the cost of constructing a gymnasium for an elementary school in that community, a facility considered needed by the people there. Mr.

Speaker, if the federal government ;i.s sincere in spending some money across our Province to create jobs and at the same -time to give us some needed ~chool facilities, all the federal government has to do is approach the provincial government, dedicate a block amount of money for that purpose which we in turn will hand over to the church authorities according to the usual .rat:i,o for the church authorities, who are constitutionally charged w;i.th the responsibility of determining school construction needs and meeting them in order of priority will th.en spend the money most wisely.

All the federal government has to do ;i.s come to us on that basis the way they did a few years ago when they funded the construction of DREE schools . I would call on the Leader of the Opposition and the 2319

Tape No, 1056 MJ - 2 April 15, 1983 HS . L . VERGE : Opposition Education critic to call on their friends inOttawa and make that ~imple request. Tell them to come to us, give us the block amount of money they want to spend to create jobs in constructing schools, and we will gladly turn it over to the church authorities and we know they will spend it where it is most needed. MR. S. NE~Y: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the han. the Leader of the Opposition, MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we would be very happy to accept the minister's invitation to call on Ottawa if we were sitting on that side of the House,but it ~eems to me, Mr. Speaker, that that is a job for the administration. Mr. Speaker, h~re is an opportunity to develop projects paid for by the Government of Cananda - MR, SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is again attempting to make a speech and there are only a couple of minutes left in the Question Period. Maybe he should pose his question. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is the hon, minister aware that this i~ a golden opportunity to get all kinds of projects done, urea formaldehyde taken out of the school down in my collea~e's district, and why does the minister not just swallow her pride, t-lhy does the Premier not swallow his pride - this is federal money - why does the Province not welcome the opportunity to take advantage of this money and develop these projects? t~Thy does the minister not pick up her phone and try to straighten out the difficulties,if indeed there are difficulties,because I think the han. the minister is just tilting at windmill~, .Mr. Speaker?

MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker.· MR. S:PEAXER: The han. the Minister of Education. 232D

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1056 MJ - 3 MS. L. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, better than my having picked up the phone,the Premier of the Province has written the federal government and 2321

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1057 MS. VERGE: called on them to co-operate with us, to respect our Constitution, to turn the money over to the church authorities through the Province SD - l ~ffi. NEARY: Can you table that correspondence? MS. VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Premier says that he can table that correspondence. However, unfortunately, regrettably, the federal government has made no approach to me,or to my knowledge anyone else in our government. Mr. Speaker, let nobody be under a mis­ impression.

The fact is the provincial government would welcome federal government money to supplement our provincial government funds for new school construction. However, federal government funds have to be chanelled through the provincial government to the church authorities according to the Constitution for the church authorities to direct them where they are most needed. That is only common sense, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : has expired. Hear, h.ear. Order, please!

Time for th.e Question peri .od Before I recognize the han. minister 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries today a delegation from the Town of Victoria with Mayor F:t'ank Clarke, Deputy Mayor Fred Baldwin and Councillor Harold Friddle. SOME HQN. MEMBERS : Iiear, hear .• MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Mini .ster o:e Education have leave to make her statement? Is it agreed{ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. The hon. Minister of Educati_on •. 2322

April 15, 19B3 Tape No. 1057 SD - 2 MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to read to hon . members the text of a letter over my signature which was delivered just a few minutes ago to the President of the Newfoundland Teachers' Association. This letter replies to one received 'from the NTA President about 5:45 p.m. yesterday. The letter from me to the NTA President is as follows: 'Dear Mr.

Noseworthy: I must express my disappointment that you have rejected the proposal of the Provincial Federation of Kame and School and Parent/Teachers Associations, that the NTA declare a moratorium on its strike action. Acceptance of that proposal would have guaranteed the re-opening of the schools on Monday. Government is prepared to return to the negotiating table at any time. It should be understood, however, that if real progress is to be made a basic change is needed in the NTA's outlook and expectations.

Given these circums·tances 1 we would welcome a cauter-proposal to the offer we made some time ago and which was rejected hy your membership on March 30J 1983. 'We appeal to you to reconsider your position on the proposal of the Provincial Federation of Home and School and Parent/Teachers Associations. Yours sincerely.' SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAI<ER (_Russell)_: MR. LUSH: Rear, h.ear. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, as I' have said before, we have two major concerns in this teacher lock· out. : One . is · that the students get back to sch.ool, that our schools be opened.

Number two, that the teach .ers· of this Province be afforded the full process of th .eir Collective Bargaining Act. These are the 2323

II\ April 15,1983 Tape No. 1058 ah-1 MR.LUSH: major concerns that we have had. And, Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed with the minister, disappointed that the minister in her position as mediator has not been able to resolve this situation. Now what do we do, Mr.Speaker? That is the question. Now what do we do? Is the minister still going to sit back or is she going to use her authority , use her influence to try and get the teacher lockout situation resolved? Are they going to be given the full benefit of their Collective Bargaining Act? In other words,can we now look to other means?

Are w~ going to look at -mediation, are we going to look at binding arbitration? Mr.Speaker, this dispute has to be resolved, it has to be resolved, and we cannot sit back. It .could be resolved if we had people who could negotiate. It has to be resolved. That is our concern, Mr.Speaker, to get the students back in school, that is our concern, and to ensure that teachers are treated justly and fairly. So, Mr. Speaker, this passing back and forth of letters, this is not going to resolve the situation. MR.SPEAKER(Russell): Order, please! Time for the hon. member has expired. MR. LUSH: By leave. Do I have leave? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon.member does not have leave. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR.AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: The Government Services Estimates Committee has met and has passed Head IV Finance, V Public Works, XI Transporation, XVI Labour and Manpower, XVII Municipal Affairs, all without amendment. 2324

April 15 , 19 8 3 MR .SPEAKER(Russell): MR .NEAR Y: MR.SPEA "KER: Tape No. 1058 Orders of the Day. Mr. Speaker. ah-2 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I move that under Standing Order 23 the regular order of business of this House be suspended today to discuss a matter ·of urgent public importance, namely the virtual collapse of the educational system in this Province due to the lockout of teachers by this administration. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, this is similar to another motion that the han . gentleman presented earlier this week and that Your Honour has ruled upon and the same observations pertain. While the position with respect to the teachers' strike is serious,under the rules it has to be a matter of urgency of debate. There is plenty of opportunity afforded for debate in the ordinary,regular business of the day. On the Order Paper is the Committee of Supply,which will presently be called, and there is also the Address in Reply which will be called,and the Budget ·Debate. 2325

April 15, 1983 Tape 1059 EC - ]. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! While the matter raised is.of great importance to everybody, as the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) said, it is the urgency of debate that the Chair has to rule o~ The Address in Reply and the Committee of Supply andother occasions are on the Order Paperwhen the matter of the teachers' strike or lockout can be considered, and based upon that I have to rule that the motion made by the hen. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is not in order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

MARSHALL: Committee of the Whole on Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Head III, and we are presently on 3.2,1-01, Premier's Office. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to just have a few words to say on this subhead.

I do not think I was here yesterday when the President of the Council introduced it, and I wanted to indicate that I think if you look at the estimates over the last number of years, the estimates for, the Premier's Office, I wculd say the rate of increase of the moneys expended for 2326

April 15, 1983 Tape 1059 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Premier's Office has been perhaps one of the least of all subheads in government and, as a matter of fact, I think it might even be falling. MR. NEARY: MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. WA RRE N: MR. CHAIRMAN : PREMIER PECKFORD: There is no reason. Order, please! It is still too much money. I ' Order, please! So we are, Mr . Chairman, through the moneys that are being expended, trying to live within the restraint situation the same as all other ministers and people who are responsible for the expenditure of public moneys.

We have been trying to keep our expenses in line and I think we have done a fairly good job on that over the last two or three years and we will continue to ensure that the amount of moneys under this subhead are kept within the wage restraints the same as everybody else and the general expenditure restraints. Yesterday in the House, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), I think, mentioned something about the question of the space that was vacated by the Department of Justice lawyers and that division is now housed in offices at Mount Scio House,_ And the Leader of the Opposition was charging here in the House that the space that the lawyers left is now being used by another government department. 2327

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1060 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: And he made that allegation, he either made it based upon wrong information, or he did not have any information and just made the allegation. I do not know which is true. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) can if he would wish to, inform me where he got his information. He made the charge and the allegation yesterday that the space that the lawyers left when their lease expired and then moved to Mount .scio House - MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Over in the Terpstra Building. That is the Terpstra Building. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) charged yesterday that that space is going to be used by another department. So I would like to know where the Leader of the Opposition got that information. Did he concoct it out of his own mind? Did he dream it up? Or did he get it from some information?

I would like to ask the Leader of the Opposition a question and I would like for him to answer it because he made a charge and an allegation, and no doubt it will be carried by the press and so on 1 which tries to dilute the important initiative that I took to try to restrain spending that I as Premier was incurring on behalf of the taxpayers of the Province. So I think the Leader of the Opposition really-that this House deserves from the Leader of the Opposition some explanation. Did he dream it up? Or did he get the information from some source?

So when the Leader of the Opposition gets a chance to speak I would like for the Leader of the Opposition to address himself to that. He made an allegation that the savings would not be as great as I had indicated because other government departments were going to move into the Terpstra Building. 2328

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1060 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: And that is not true. PREMIER PECKFORD: And I would like to know where the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) got his information. He always gets up in this House and says he knows more about what is going on in government than ministers and the Premier and all of that. --- . - MR. NEARY: We know all about this hearing too that Mr. Weir is heading. PREMIER PECKFORD: at a time now. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Now let us stick to one issue ~vell, let us talk about Mr. Weir . Order, please! And the campaign for the MR. NEARY: leadership. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Let us talk about that. MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Weir - Order, please! Let us talk about John Doyle. You do not want to talk about PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, we will talk about that too but let us talk about one thing at a time . The Leader of the Opposition made a charge an an allegation yesterday, and I am not goinq to let him away with it, and now he is squirming now, I am going on to another subject. Now squirm all you like now. You squirmed when the Mifflin Enquiry came out an~ you were left guilty . You squirmed then. You have squirmed when you have lost leadership campaigns.

You are squirming over there right now, Mr. Chairman, the h.on. Leader of the Opposition . and now he wants to go on and try to allege and make another charge now ·. When he fails on one allegation he moves to another one. Just look at him, Mr. Chairman, look at him squirm over there~ Move to another 2329

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1060 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: allegation over there now. We are talking about the subheads not., of the Premier's office and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Near

y) charged and alleged yesterday that the savings that I had indicated publicly that tvere going to be accrued to the government because I moved out of Mount Scio House and moved government offices in there, that the. Terpstra Building was going to be used again by government so that the savings would net oe as great as I had said they were . Now that is either true or that is false . And I am saying to the Leader of the Oppo.sition, ~men he gets a chance to speak now in this debate, tV"ould he p~ease in·form the Legislature where he got this information? Did he 233D

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1061 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: make it up or did he get it from somewhere( I would like to know which of the two - it can only be one of the two, and I would like to know. My first point in getting up, Mr. Chairman, was to indicate that the expenditures in the Premier's Office over the last number of years· have been well in line, as a matter of fact, I think even less, they are going down. The expenditures in the Premier's Office are actually going down and that is something to be said.

While health costs are going up 23 per cent and education costs· are going up and everybody is talking about the 6 and 5 programme, the absolute dollar figure in t~e Premier's Office is going down. And I think that sort of demonstrates that the Premier, as the leader of the government, as· leader of the Province, is trying to do his

part in restraining expenditures. I think that is an important point to be made. As from time to time I can become the subject of great criticism by the Leader of the Opposition and by others in th.e public, about what the Premier is doing arnot doing,because a Premier obviously has· a fairly high profile in his· awn Provincer then I think it is only fair for me, in my turn when the Estimates come up, to be a:Ole to declare w-ith some degree of pride that the absolute dollar figures for the Premier's Office over the last two or three years have been going down. So that while most departments and sectors of the economy are demanding extra money, th.e Premier for his

part is· trying to. res·train and is seeing the amount of dollars used going down. And the same can be said in th.e transportati.on that the Premier uses. Back in other days-and here we are now- in a time when, I guess, t.he demand on the. l?remi.er ~ s· 2331

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1061 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: time to travel is greater than it was five years ago, greater than it was ten or fifteen years ago yet the amount that I spend of taxpayers' dollars on travelling is going down, Mr. Chairman. It is actually going down. In the last twelve months, for example, the helicopter-how many times did I use the helicopter for government business in the last year? Once or twice I used the helicopter and then when I was absolutely forced to 9 I have taken my car or rented a car and driven 350 miles and 400 miles so I would not have to take the helicopter. MR.

MORGAN: without a chauffeur.too. PREMIER PECKFORD: Right. And drive yourself 1 And drive _myself when the other two premiers since Confederation had chauffeurs. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. MORGAN: without a chauffeur. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, exactly. Joey Smallwood did not drive No, sir. The former, former Premier did not drive by himself. MR. NEARY: He did until his eyes got bad. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: PREMIER PECKFORD : area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN: PREMIERe PECKFORD : Yes, until his eyes got bad. Order, please! Oh, oh.

Order, please! · Now we are touching a sensitive Oh, oh. Order, please! Mr. Chairman, the number one point I' want to make is that the Premier's Office is constraining its expenditures, they are actually going down, 2332

April 15, 19 83 Tape No . 1061 so - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD : that the Premier himself has restrained his expenses both on transportation and on acconunodat .ion and has reduced them on behalf of the taxpayers of Newfoundland. And two, charges and allegations made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) yesterday must be answered, the Leader of the Opposition must come clean w~th this Legislature. If he is going to debate these expenditures, if he is going to charge and allege that we are going to use that space that the lawyers moved out of 1 then he must either prove it or whatever .

So, you know, we have to see that from the Leader of the Opposition now and just see how truthful he is going to be with this Committee in dealing with these Estimates. Mr. Chairman, there is not much more I can add, simply to say 2333

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1062 MJ-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: that we are trying to keep within our bounds and we are proving that. The numbers prove it and it is easy for the Opposition to see those numbers. You know, we are fairly proud of the job that we are doing there. We try in the Premier's office. There is a lot of mail that comes in, hundreds and hundreds - MR. NEARY: What about the dining room? PREMIER PECKFORD: The dining room is there, yes, and the dining room is going to remain there, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: That is the only place now that the Premier has to entertain, to have meetings through lunch unless I book a room at some restaurant, which will cost me more, around town. Most of the meetings that I have with people from out of town who come in here, I can h only have during luncy or during supper. And I am going to, as Premier Smallwood did, as Premier Moores did, I am going to keep the dining room because it provides a place for meetings for me and the ministers, and I am very proud of that. I know, Mr.

Chairman, that the Leader of the Opposition used that dining room when he was a minister in the Cabinet back with the Premier. MR. NEARY: I certainly did not. EREmER : 'PECKFORD: Well, perhaps he did not because he was a junior minister and he was ignored. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I did not. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am sorry. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. MR. MORGAN: Go on boy, you are jealous. PREMIER PECKFORD: I know. He is jealous that he never had the chance to use it. Mr.

Chairman, let me tell you something else, it is going to be a foggy day in Newfoundland when the Leader of the Opposition ever gets the chance to use that dining room. SOME . HON, MEMBERs: Hear, hear! 2334

April 15, 1983 MR. S. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No, 1062 MJ ~ 2 You are worr~ed about that, a~e you? No, You better be worried about that, No. Because :r th~nk the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and a few other members over there who are doing an excellent job in the Opposition are going to challenge the hon. the Leader,and when the Leadership comes up ~n the next year or so the Leader of the Opposition is going to be gone. I have heard already, rumours from really reliable sources,of some th~ngs that members over there have said about the Leader of the Opposition \Mr.

Neary)~ They want to see him go. There are only e:l,ght of them over there and already there are two or three or more over there saying that the Leader of the Opposition has to go if the Liberal Party is going to have a chance to increase the number of seats it has in the House. And every where :r go around the Prov~nce I hear the same thing~ 1Brian boy, you got it made, Your greatest asset is Mr. Neary.' That is the comment :r hear more often than anything else, Mr, Chairman, around this Province, SOME HON. MEMB'ERS : Oh, oh! MR. w. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Order, please!

The han, the member for Bellevue, MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, the gentleman who just took his seat should be totally ashamed of himself. He is the most expensive Prem~er in the wh.ole country and I can cite a_dozen to one examples of that, But, Mr. Chairman, at a time of restraint when the teachers - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh.! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! MR. CALLAN: -and oth.er public servants are told to settle for 5 per cent and 4 per cent - 2335

April 15, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . CHAIRMAN: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1062 Oh, oh! Order, please! (Inaudi.ble) • MJ-3 Why do you not go down to Gaultois and Ramea MR .MORGAN: and tell the people what you are going to do about them. MlL CALLAN : I might go the weekenct, boy. The mouth from Bonavista South, could you keep him quiet, Mr. Chairman, please. MR.. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD) : Order, please! MR. CALLAN : Mr . Chairman, we have 2336

April 15, 1983 Tape 1063 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: on that side of the Legislature eighteen or nineteen Cabinet ministers / then we have a half a dozen half Cabinet ministers ,and during a time of restraint. MR. HODDER: No, they are not even half Cabinet ministers, they are just paid flunkies. MR. CALLAN: Now these are just some examples of the extravagance of the Premier.

I mean,if these parliamentary secretaries, if the departments that they work in were doing things, were producing something to help this Province rather than just running the Province deeper and deeper in debt with their unnecessary and high salaries, you know, if they were doing anything, if they were accomplishing anything, but there is nothing happening in this Province, Mr. Chairman. Nothing happening in this Province. I wonder how guilty these gentlemen feel when they ~each out their hands to take their chequeswhenever they get paid- twice a month, I suppose.

But in addition to these unnecessary and overpaid half,half Cabinet ministers, Mr. Chairman, I wonder how many other people, unnecessary people the Premier has on his staff? For example, the Chief of Staff, a salary of $50,711, his salary increased over last year 7 per cent. Why was he not forced to stay within the 6 per cent and 5 per cent guidelines? The Senior Policy Advisor - MR. HODDER: Five per cent and four per cent. MR. CALLAN: - $62,244,in the Premier's Office, $62,000. That is over a 9 per cent increase over last year. These are just two examples. Mr.

Chairman, in the Premier's Office there are people who are there for one sole purpose and that is to look at the obituarycolumns and to look at the sports pages and to look in the newspapers to see who they can send out a letter of sympathy to or a congratulatory message to, whether it be in sports or whatever. 2337

Ap ril 15 , 1983 Tape 1063 PK - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: That is not true. MR. NE .ARY: It is true. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, let me give you one small example of the unnecessary waste of the taxpayers' dollars.

Imagine the Premier of the Province,not even during election time, by the way, it was between elections. l;t had nothing to do with a by-election in Bellevue or a general election, you would expect the Premier to be pulling every string then, but it was between elections that the Premier sent out a telegram to a little committee out in the town of Bellevue telling them that theywere successful in getting their 75 per cent funding for a new fire truck.

I mean, you would expect a telegram or a phone call or a letter to come from Leo McCann or some civil servant, yau know, in the Department of Municipal A.ffairs, or perhaps the deputy minister o.r even the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr:il. Newhook) , but the Premier, what silly nonsense and what silly trasn. And tne propaganda sheets that come out from the Premier's Office on a regular basis about the offshore negotiations and why they have broken down, 2338

April 15, 1983 Tape 1064 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: nonsense, silly nonsense! The last one we had there a week or more ago cost $23,000. What silly nonsense! The most expensive Premier in all of Canada, Mr. Chairman. And the staff that the Premier has in ~is office -What money could be saved if the Premier were to cut back on them, and as I said, get rid of these five or six Parliamentary Secretaries! Mr. Chairman, there is nothing happening in this Province. There is nothing happening. A month or two ago, we were told by the minister who is down South now, the minister responsible for Development and Tourism (Mr.

Windsor), that he was going to publish - in two weeks, he said -the report on the smelter that would either go in Labrador or in the Bay of Islands area. In two weeks, he said, and that was a month and a half ago. Where is that report, Mr. Chairman? Where is it? I mean, Joey Smallwood was talking about an aluminum --smelter back in 1970 and this government have been talking about it ever since with no results, no concrete results. Mr. Chairman, the Premier, you know, is not even running a caretaker government. There is nothing happening.

If the Premier really cared about this Province as he pretends to, what he would do is hand in his resignation. Because I am sure that the member for Mount ~cio (Mr. Barry) is chafing at the bit. And I do not want to blow his horn but, Mr. Chairman, it is common knowledge that the only negotiations that ever took place in this Province since this administration took over in 1979 were carried out by the gentleman from Mount Scio. It was the member for Mount Scio who was in the Cabinet at the time, who negotiated, or renegotiated the ERCO deal, the ERCO contract, 2339

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1065 ah-1 MR. CALLAN: it was not the Premier. The Premier may have tried to take credit in his press conferences and so on, but it is common knowledge that as Minister of Mines and Energy it was the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry). And it was the member for Mount Scio who resigned from the Cabinet because he could not carry on the sort of negotiations that the Premier wanted him to carry on with Ottawa. I would say, Mr.

Chairman, that if the member for Mount Scio were still in Cabinet, and was allowed to carry on the kind of negotiations that he wanted to carry on with Ottawa, that we would have had an agreement long before now. You see, Mr. Chairman, it is easy for anybotly to see who is to blame i~ this fiasco that we have between this Province and Ottawa. You know, this administration cannot even negotiate a contract with teachers let alone negotiate a contract with Ottawa for the offshore and the jurisdictional dispute. It is easy to see, the Premier is the only player who has not changed.

As I said, the member for Mount Scio was one of the players and, of course, he was forced to resign; he could not stay there and not carry on the negotiations as he wanted to, so he resigned. On the federal scene, Mr. Chairman, we had two different players, the Premier is the same player though. What about the ferry services that the Premier took over since 1979? MR. NEARY: that? We do not hear anything about MR. CALLAN: What about the ferry services? Right here, Mr. Chairman, quoting from the press: MR. MORGAN: Any ferry services we took over were forced on us by the feds. MR.

CALLAN: "The Green Bay Transport No. 1 • . Taxpayers are getting neither equity in the ferry 2340

April 15,1983 Tape No . 1065 ah-2 MR. CALLAN: nor service ,for the money they are po •.lring into it. n MR. WARREN : Where is thatr Green Bay . MR .CALLAN: "Alright," says Dawe the Minister of Transportation, "So we have one bummer on our hands." He admits that the government bungled. We have a b-u -m-m-e-r, we have a bummer on our hands. When we negotiated that deal we did not have the hindsigh~'- and here is the Premier who talks about other pre .miers who were supposed to have hindsight .

Where was the hindsight of this administration? ~considering the cost of repairs still needed on the Green Bay Transport,an estimated $500,000, it may end up costing taxpayers $2 million or three times the purchase price '! 'qe are talking about the Premier' s friend here. We are talking abou t the man who helped the Premier become leader of the PC party by raising funds for him a.nd giving generous donations to his campaign back in 2341

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1066 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: 1979. MR. NEARY: and deny that. MR. TOBIN: MP. CALLAN: the Winter and Spring of Do you deny that? Stand up Who financed your campaign? I think, Mr. Chairman, what we need is a public enquiry, what we need is a public enquiry. We need a public enquiry under the Public Enquiries Act. We need a public enquiry to look into the whole ferry system in this ~rovince and the way this administration has bungled it. MR. HODDER: Did they not give him the money to buy the boat in the first place? MR. CALLAN: That is right. Here it is. Three nights ago here in committee, Mr.

Chairman, discussing the Transportation estimates,I asked the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) a half dozen questions in connection with Wilbur Weir and the ferry service. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. CALLAN: And, Mr. Chairman, you cannot get the Hansard for six months, or until at least the House closes. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CALLAN:· SOME HON. MEMBERS: AN RON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: leave. Order, please! By leave? By leave. No. The hon. member does not have The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I just want to answer a number of charges there.

They are hardly worth answering in one sense. I think when I left the House, when th.e 2342

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1066 NM--2 PREMIER PECKFORD: hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) got up, I just wondered why the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) did not get up~ I asked him to answer a question about a charge he made yesterday. He is too cowardly to get up in the House, Mr. Chairman, and answer the question and, therefore, he had to hide behind the member for Bellevue. I never thought I would see the day the Leader of the Opposition would hide behind the member for Bellevue,and get the member for Bellevue to get up. He would not get up himself. Mr. Chairman, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is a coward. He would not get up and answer the ouestion I asked ,him. I..fuere di.d he get his information that the lawyers who moved out of the Terpstra Building into Mount Scio House, that that space was then going to be inhabited by other public servants? Where did 'he get the information? He made a charge and now he-cannot substantiate the charge and so he hides behind another hon. member. So let it be recorded, Mr. Chairman, that the Leader of the Op~osition is great on making charges, hut he is very weak on substantiating them, validating them, very, very weak.

Where did the Leader of the Opposition get his information? Just a hollow, hollow allegation, as are all the allegations by the Leader of the Opposi.tion. On salary increases, ~r. Chairman, that were raised. The salary increases for the members of the staff, the Premier's Office, take in a two year period.

And if you look at the salaries, there were increases before last Apri.l and increases after this April so that the increases that the staff have gotten-you.can do a bit of ~athematics on it-show that the increases given the staff in the Premier's Office are no greater than the increases that were given to other publi.c servants. They are now under five and four 2343

April 15 , 19 83 Tape No. 1066 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: and if you look a:t the di.fferences, because it is over the two years, it is five and four which would be nine per cent. So, Mr. Chainnan, the allegation, or the charge that the members of the Premier's Office get ··paid differently than other public servants is totally erroneous, totally withOut foundation 1 in fact, and the Opposition cannot prove otherwise. They can make allegations, You know/ they talk about research and going to be bed .at ni.ne-thirty at night and all the rest of it, well, they can do their research 2344

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1067 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: on the Premier's Office, on the salaries in the Premier's Office and demonstrate to this House and the people of Newfoundland that the people in the Premier's Office get paid differently than other public servants and they will not be able to prove it. The mathematics show that they cannot prove it. I have it here before me now~ I think he mentioned the Chief of Staff or whatever - over the two year period a 9 per cent increase-over two years.

Salary in the 1982/83 book effective April 1st, 1981, $46,439; salary in the 1983/84 book effective April •lst, 1983- two years -April, 1981 April, 1983, $57,011. What is the percentage? Nine per cent increase over two years, the Chief of Staff in the Premier's Office. I will go over that again, Mr. Chairman. The salary in the 1982/83 book which was effective for April 1st, 1981, the salary was effective and the salary was $46,439. And the salary effective April 1st, 1983 .. two years, Apri .l 1st, 1981- April 1st, 1983, is $57 ,0 .11.

So if you take $46,439, $57,011, subtract it and work out the increase, it is 9 per cent over two years. AN HON. MEMBER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Five per cent and four per cent. Five per cent and four per cent over two years and that is before the wage restraints · even came in. So the Chief of Staff of the Premi~r's Office got a 9 per cent increase from April 1st, 1981 to April 1st, 1983.

As a matter of fact,that is a very meager increase over that period of time because everybody else, I would say, got more than that over that period of time - 9 per cent~ So there you go, that is the kind of allegations that you have to put up with from the Leader of th .e Oppos ·it.ion CMr. Neary} when he hides behind another member wh.o gets up and makes another allegation. So on two things now thi .a morning, Mr. Chairman -we have the Leader of th.e Opposition 2345

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1067 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: destroyed on an allegation he made yesterday about space in the · Terpstra Building and now we have the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) destroyed on an allegation of increases in the Premier 's staff that are different from the others. So there are two no\o~ where they are wrong . The aluminum smelter that the member for Bellevue mentions, the aluminum smelter . There is a feasibility study underway between the private industry that is interested and gove~nment. That is a feasibility study and hundreds of thousands of dollars are being put into it, into that study . Now you are not going to build an aluminum smelter 2346

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1068 JV- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: aluminum smelter anywhere in Newfoundland and Labrador or anywhere else in the world unless a feasibility study is done. Who is going to spend two or three billion dollars without a feasibility · study? So, we are doing a feasibility study. We are doing all that we ~an to examine the potential for industrial development around the Province and, in order to do that, obviously you have to do a feasibility study. That is being done and it will be released within the next couple of months by the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor).

We have done a Labrador Transportation plan. We have done a whole range of things around the province as it relates to economic activity. The fact that they have not gone ahead is a function of our economic condition in the Western World. It is not a function of this government 1solely. Now, if you want to take a different philosophical economic bent and start purchasing industry that is another thing, that is socialism, then you just pump money in and and you get into the state that Mitterand got into in France and what does he have to do now? He has to d~w back.

The leader in this Western world who had to eat more craw in · the last two years 1 is Francois Mitterand, the President of France, who is a socialist and has three or four communists in his cabinet. He is the one who has had to do the most crawling over the last two years. He got in and he argued that .more involvement into the economy by the Government of France would be beneficial to French society and would not lead to any deterioration of their 2347

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1068 JV - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: currency, their balance of payments, inflation, unemployment and all the rest of it and what has happened in the two years that he instituted that new policy? We have seen the French economy go down and down and down and now he has to realize that he went too far in that direction. Now he has to balance it off by kicking out a whole bunch of people from Russia to regain some political popularity and he has had to make significant changes in the economic and financial policies that he had been persuing.

We are doing all we can, but it is not just a function of the Provincial Government it is a function of economics within a free market economy which, in Canadian terms, is sort of a hybrid. economic society, we are neither socialists or capitalist, we are somewhere in between. Every country has its own unique economics andyou cannot be dogmatic about it to say one is purely one way and one is purely another. On the whole question of the offshore,I mean, why do I have to - Mr.Chairman 1 there is really no need to comment on it.

You know, no ·---- ·-·- -· . . greater insult has ever been perpetrated upon a provinc~~l __ s() _ciet y than that which .· has been perpetrated upon the Newfoundland society today. We are expected as a people, as a progressive society, to accept verbal assurances on the largest oil field in Canada's history and not only the largest oil field, the greatest potential, 700 thousand square mile& of potential, and we cannot get the federal government to put in writing where it stands on the vital issues necessary to be put together for an agreement.

They will not put it in writing.And I find it absolutely astounding that anybody could accuse this 2348

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1069 MJ - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: government of being somenow less than eager to get an agreement, than we are~ And here you have all the commentators, individual and collective,around Newfoundland especially and in other places,try to be coy about it and blame both governments equally. Well, that does a great disservice to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. We are willing to put our position in writing and we want the federal government to do the same thing.

We tried to verbally negotiate so far and then go to writing and it failed, We have tried everything that is possible to try and we just cannot get tnese people to put in writing ~hat they say verbally, The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) had an agreement witn the present Minister of Energy in Ottawa (Mr. Chretien), verbally, we thought he did, it looked pretty good, and then wnen we had to put it in writing-obviously, nobody argue;:; that you got to have an agreement in writing on the offshore, surely.

So, okay, we did our verbal negotiations and then when we went to put it in writing of course there was no agreement, They started putting positions on the table wh±ch were completely inconsistent with the verbal positions that they had put in the verbal negotiations between the two· ministers. Mr. Cha.i,rrnan, on the last point that the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) made, it really· does not deserve it. If the hon. member wants to make an allegation against me or something1let him make it outside this House where he does not have the immunity that he has inside.

The situation on the ferry systems in this Province, they are working very, very well, Much better than they have ever worked before . On the question of the particular ferry in question, that has been answered and the information ~s available on that matter, The ferry 2349

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1069 MJ - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: was purchased in good faith at the time on the clear understanding from the federal government that the ferry terminals would be finished and that ~e could use that kind of a boat. They reneged on their commitments to go ahead with the ferry terminals for Qver two or three years, making it impossible to use the ferry . The ins pection that was done on it was done by technical experts at the time, and we trusted the information that the technical experts brought in, the Department of Transportation did. When the boat was purch .ased it was found that the technical experts ' analysis of the im,Provemen 'ts to be made was wrong . 235D

April 15, 1983 Tape 1070 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I mean, those are the facts of the matter and they will stand under any scrutiny. I mean, that is the long and short of it, There were two main factors: The ferry terminals were not built according to the

schedule the federal government had established ~d, two, the technical analysis which was done by a CSI inspector on it was incorrect. There were a lot more improvements to be done. But the ferry would have been used the same as all the other boats that were purchased if, in fact, the ferry terminals had been finished as they were promised and we would not have had to spend so much money on it if the technical analysis done by a CSI inspector was correct. That was the long and short of it. So, Mr. Chairman, these a·re the answers to all those questions, MR:, NEA,RY: MR. CHAlRMAN (Aylward) : Opposi,ti,on. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Chairman. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, you talk about a cowardly way to try to weasel out from underneath the dark cloud that the han. gentleman is under with regard to the purchase ~f this ferry, the Green Bay fiasco situation! My han. colleague raised some very serious matters in connection with the purchase of this ferry, which was purchased, by the way, before the CN report was made. It was a sweetheart deal, Mr. Chairman, that was made between the han. the Premier and his pal. MR. CARTER: Say that outside the House.

MR, NEARY: No, where you make these kinds of statements is in the House, not outside the House. And if the han, gentleman had any courage he would have 2351

April 15, 1983 Tape 1070 EC - 2 ~ MR. NEARY: a public inquiry made into it. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: He would stand in his place in this House and demand that a public inquiry - HR. TOBIN: Something like the Mifflin inquiry? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, does the hon. gentleman have something to say? Does the hon. gentleman have some comment to make on it? If he does not, the hon. gentleman should go and do what I told the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) to do this morning, to take a course in good manners and etiquette and try to improve himself. His constituents are ashamed of him. Mr.

Chairman, I would submit that the hon. gentleman ~a~ lowered the decorum of this House enough now since he came in here and if the hon. gentleman does not take his seat - MR. CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: What the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is doing now is deliberately misunderstanding and misapplying the rules of this House.

While it is true that we do have substantial legal pro- tection for anything we say about anyone in this House, that is designed to protect us from a slip of the tongue, not from a deliberate attack on someone, some person or some agency that does not 2352

April 15, 1983 Tape l07l. PK - 1 MR. CARTER: have the same immunity as we have or the right to reply and, therefore, I would say that the han. gentleman should not be allowed to say it and , in fact, should apologize for having said it. It was no slip of the tongue , it was done deliberately. MR. NEARY: Having said it - JYir. Chairman, that is no point of order. The hon. gentleman is just as silly as usual, Mr. Chairman. That is no point of order. All they are doing is trying to use up some of my time. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman - Does Your Honour wish to make a ruling? MR.

CHAIRMAN (McNi chol as) : will just take one second. MR. NEARY: of my time, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: for a couple of minutes? MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN : reference. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: ...... ~ ~ . . ... the point of order. MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: To that point of order, it I hope this is not corning out Could we just call a recess Wha£ is the problem? We are just looking upthe He has to rule on the point of order . Pardon? The Chairman has to rule on There is no point of order. That is only according to yo~ . You are not in the Chair.

Why do you no t go down and try to explain to your constituents why you misled them. RECESS MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. Order, please! To that point of order, I am checking into it and I will rule on it at a later time. 2353

April 15, 1983 Tape 1071 PK - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN!McNicholas): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the Premier seems to be terribly worried about the Opposition these days. He spends pFactically every moment that he gets in this House criticizing the Opposition, trying to divide the Opposition, trying to cause dissention in our ranks~ Mr.

Chairman, I can tell the hon. gentleman he is not going to succeed~ We have eight potential leaders over here, we have eight very dedicated men who are working hard on behalf of the people of this Province, and if I was the hon. gentleman I would get eyes in the back of my head with some of the remarks that I hear corning from backbenchers and ministers on the government side of the House these days. The member for Mount Scio CMr. Barry) is putting it mildly in this House and in his letters, what he says about the hon. gentleman outside of this House, ,Mr.

Chairman, and you can go up and down the ranks • I can look across at hon. gentlemen now who grind their teeth, whose blood pressure goes up when they are talking abont the Premier, 2354

April 15, 1983 Tape No, 1072 MJ - l MR. S. NEARY: they curse and swear on him. But, Mr. Chairman, we have far too - MR. TOBIN: Name names! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEAR;Y: Mr, Chairman, could you get the ignoramus from Burin (Mr. Tobin) back in his seat. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order,please! That is an unparliamentary statement. I would ask the han. the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw. HR. NEARY: Could you quote from Beauchesne, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: One quote, I will get the exact wording for it, is that we are supposed to refer to non, members in this House by their districts.

MR. NEARY: Well, if T said the hon. ignoramus from Burin district,would that be in order, Mr. Chairman? I MR. CHAIRMAN: The wording, on page 107 in Beauchesne, the word 'ignoramus' in debates of May 18, 1961 has been ruled unparliamentary, MR. NEARY: Well, I w,ithdraw it, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, The han, the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, we are told,by the way, and the Premier tries to prop up the morale of his caucus by telling them, 'Look, we are down now,, we are in pretty bad shape now, we will make all the unpopular decisions this year and in , the next two or three years we will make up for it. We havethree years before an election so do not panic.' But what the han. Premier is not telling the members of his caucus is that he is going to resign before the next provincial election, that he is going to step down, that he does not intend to run in the next election and therein lies their problem. 2355

April 15, 1983 MR. CALLAN: them. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1072 MJ - 2 I think that is what he is telling That i s what he is telli ·ng them. Be has made that statement publicly . Mr. Chairman, let me deal with a couple of the statements that were made by the hen . gentleman that were untrue and false . The Chief of Staff in his office 2356

April 15, 1983 Tape 1073 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: got a 19 per cent increase in pay. Since 1981 he has gotten a 19 per cent increase in his salary. That is an average of 7 per cent a year, a little bit above the guideline. MR. TOBIN: That is not true. MR. NEARY: estimates. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: It is true. Look at the A total of 28 per cent. The senior policy advisor this year got a 9.2 per cent increase. MR. DINN: Over two years. MR. NEARY: No, over the period of three years - 28 per cent over a three year period. Mr.

Chairman, this year, the senior policy advisor to the Premier got a 9.2 per cent increase, and the senior advisor has gotten a 26 per cent increase over the past three years. So there is a falsehood if we ever saw one. Mr.~~rman,another example of a falsehood. Another falsehood has to do with Mount Scio House, the rental of space in Tiffany Place and the use of the private dining room. Now, let us see what happened in the days-when the han. the Premier made reference to the former, former Premier, Mr . Smallwood, what happened in that dining room? Well, here is what happened.

It did not cost the taxpayers of this Province one cent, not a cent. When Mr. Moores came in, he said, 'What about the private dining room?' And somebody said, 'Well, the people who eat down there pay for their meals and the wine is given to them, and it does not cost the taxpayers a cent.' 'Well,' he said, 'that is going to change.' 'From now on,' he said, 'we will have the best down there. The best of grub, we will have the best of 2357

·~ April 15, 1983 Tape 1073 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: booze, the best of wine.' MR. YOUNG: Does the hon. member remember who used to give him the wine? MR. NEARY: I do not know, but it was not paid for by the taxpayers. MR. YOUNG: Was it Graves? MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman can get up and make a speech when I am finished but I am only telling him the facts. The food was paid for. The members who ate there paid a small fee to the Consolidated Revenue Fund for their meals and the only cost was the cook. The cook was seconded part-time from the College of Fisheries. Now,that was the difference then from what it is today.

Now, what do you have today? What do you have today, Mr. Chairman? MR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: Stop raising your voice. I have to raise my voice because I am being so rudely interrupted by gentlemen -who do not observe the rules of the House. SOME HON • MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: Has my time elapsed? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. 2358

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1074 SD - 1 ·MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there are only, I think, a couple of moments - MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Ayhrard): Leader of the Opposition. in the debate. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. A point of order, the hon. There are two minutes left Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Chairman, there are two minutes left in this long, long debate that has occurred on the Estimates. And the only way I can sum it up is that the hon. the former Reform Liberal, the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan), got up in this House and started talking about the staff of the Premier's Office being used for the purpose of writing sympathy letters. You know, that is the quality of the debate. If there is any need of sympathy letters, sympathy letters should be sent to the hon.gentlernen there opposite for the way in which they have conducted the debate in the examination of the Estimates in this House. This is the largest budget that has ever been voted by the House.

There has not been in the whole seventy-five hours or eighty hours or 100 hours, however much was expended in the Committee of the Whole and in committees themselves, there has not been any mar: than a half a dozen or a dozen questions on what is this money spent for, what is. the purpose of it, why is it higher than it was las ·t year, why is it lower than it was last year, why has not more money been spent here and there? All we get is· the type of diatribe that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition CMr. Neary)_ should patent, and which he gave just a· few minutes ago. MR. NEARY: What was it? 2359

April 15, l98.3 Tape No. 1074 so - 2 MR. MARSHALL : A diatribe . MR. NEARY: MR . MARSHALL: His time is up, Mr. Chairmarr. Yes, time is up . It is unfortunate, Mr. Chairman, that time is up because once again, despite what you do in trying to reform the rules of the House and make the examination ·of the Estimat es more effective, it just goes back to the saying, 'You can bring the horses to the water' - we can drop our h's as we do in Newfoundland - you can bring thearses to the water but you cannot make them drink SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! 236D

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1075 NM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please: On motion, 3.1 1 1~01 through 3.3,2-01, carried. On motion, Head III, Executive Council, carried. On motion,that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Kilbride. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has met, and has asked me to re~ort passing Head III, Executive Council, and ask leave to sit again. On motion,report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3, Concurrence on Social Services Committee. Just before we start, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say it has been the practice~since this great reform has been brought in, in the concurrence debates to have the same rules with respect to speaking, time rules that is, as in Committee. So I assume that the Opposition would concur with that. It seems to have worked out fairly effective!~ which would mean fifteen minutes for the opener, fifteen minutes for the responder, and ten minutes for each person. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

MR. · NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what point the hon. gentleman is making 1 because all we can do is make speeches. We cannot ask questions, we cannot get answers to questions. MR. MARSHALL: Yes you can. 2361

-'- April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1075 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: We cannot. MR. MARSHALL: That is because you do not kn01)l how to ask the questions. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, before we start let us get the ground rules straightened out. Can we ask questions under each item, each subhead and expect to get answers from ministers as we should have the right to do in this House? Can we do that? MR. MARSHALL: Well,I mean,if you want to stop bullying me 1 sit down and let me stand up, I will tell you. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, what we can do, we can do the same thing that the han. gentlemen had the opportunity to do in the committee but they did not take it. They can speak for ten minutes, ask questions. I'am quite sure that the ministers and the committee chairmen would be prepared to answer ques~ions. The purpose of the concurrence debate is mainly for the committee members, and for the members of the House to make comments on the proceedings of the committee that occurred, and here we are considering Social Services, and the departments considered therein.

Once we are within the realm of ithat I am quite sure that the ministry will be quite happy to answer any intelligent questions. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting with bated breath since 1979 for an intelligent question. 2362

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1076 ah-1 SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Now that we have the rules sorted out I recognize the Chairman of the Social Services Committee, the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr.Carter). SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.CARTER: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. The six government departments that we considered were logically assembled as being the Social Services Departments, that is to say the departments that confer a social service as opposed to a material service or a material benefit on any member of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Each of the departments consi~ered had at least one whole session devoted to them,and the Department of Education had two whole sessions devoted to it. And that is only reasonable because that is the largest department. We found that the system worked,again this year, very well with some exceptions,and these exceptions have nothing to do with us or the Opposition necessarily or the Committee system itself. It was disappointing - well,we were disappointed that members of the general public did not see fit to come in and observe these proceedings.

Now,it is true that there could not be very much advance notice given of what department's estimates would be heard,because you cannot presume a committee. We could not presume,for instance,that the Department of Health was only going to take one session. As it turned out it did but we could not presume that,therefore,I was not able to advise the press that on the following day or the following slot that we had alloted to us,that we would be considering the estimates of such and such a department. But to become more specific, Mr. Speaker, in the Depatment of Health the questions were quite 2363

April 15,1983 Tape No. 1076 ah -2 MR. CARTER: wide-ranging but they seemed to focus on the tremendous increase in the Department of Health 's budget in recent years . And quoting from the 1977 budget I note that the Department of Health estimates called for $206 million current and capital and in the 1983 budget they called for $455 million.

And naturally this gave rise to some questions and it turns out that it is not that we are getting less healthly but that the kind of service that is being provided by the Department of Health involves complex heart surgery and v·ery complex cancer therapy and very complex treatments that are not only complex but extremely costly. In fact,the alarming figure of $1 ,000 a day for a bed in some treatment areas was revealed and this comes as a great surprise to many people . It has been suggested a number of times that 2364

•J April 15, 1983 Tape 1077 PK - 1 MR. CARTER: although the services that are provided by some of these departments to ~he general public are free 1 that upon receip£ of this service it might be a good idea to give the recipients a receipted bill. In other words, someone who has come out of hospital with a heart operation and probably had to pay the maximum $4.00 a day for a private room, and let us say he stayed there for ten days, his bill might be of the order of $40 or $50.

He should also get a bill for probably $20,000, but receipted by the ~epartment of Health or by the government, the Province of Newfoundland illustrating just what the total cost was. Because the costs of some of these services are enormous. And all you have to do is take the number of people served and divide it into the total budget and you can get some idea of what the cost is. This is not to suggest that these services should not be provided practically free. But it would not hurt if the general public were able to realize just how much these services cost.

Again,still staying with the Department of Health,I ·made the observation that- I wondered aloud what the cost of the Department of Health's budget would be if no one in Newfoundland had smoked for the last twenty years. And it was pointed out the bill would be something like $100 million less 1 that the diseases applied- AN HON. MEMBER: How much would we have lost in taxes? MR. CARTER: A memBer who refrains from identifying himself says, How much would we have lost in taxes? I was going to get to that.

The amount that is raised in taxes annually,by taxes on liquor and cigarettes, does not come anywhere near to defraying the health costs associated with those. MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible) • MR . CARTER: Nothing near! Nothing near! Of course there have to be some guesstimates made. But if the Department of Health officials are able to say categorically 2365

April 15, 1983 Tape 1077 PK - 2 MR . CARTER: that at least $100 million a year is required to treat the diseases caused ~nd associate d with smoking particularly, and perhaps to a lesser extent the consumption of alcohol ,then what springs to my mind is not that these practices be more severely taxed or that they be prohibited,because I think freedom is more .important even than health , but that a gre ater proportion of the provincial budget be directed towards education into the hazards , particularly into the haza rds of smoking . Now as a reformed smoker myself, I naturally have an axe to grind .

I do feel stopping smoking is very beneficial not only in terms of health - ~m . PATTERSON: How many pounds did you put on? MR . CARTER : One can put on a few 238 •8

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1078 MJ -1 HR. J. CARTER: pounds but one can also carry those pounds a little more effectively if one does not smoke. It has been something like twelve years for me and I find the benefits to be quite demonstrable. Again, to get into the Department of Equcation1the reorganized high school programme came in for quite a bit of discussion and debate and,of course, the student allowances, Because it was just after the Budget Speech that we got into the Department of Education, and the student allowances were discussed at great length• And the minister, I thought, made a very good presentation.

She pointed out that the burden on the most needy students would not be any_greater than it always was. MR. HODDER: ~fuat about school books? MR. CARTER: The school books: This point was raised,too,and it has been drawn to my attention, I forget whether it was pointed out in the Committee or not,that although the school book subsidy has been lessened1nevertheless school books still are quite cheap. And, by the way, anyone who cares to look in the ditches of this City with the commencement of the Summer holidays will see a great many torn and battered school books.

And I suggest that when the schoolbooks are given free,or practically free,there is very little regard given to them,and rather than being looked after and passed on to other grades,they end up in the ditches and garbage cans of this City and I think that is a great pity. And it is too bad that such a benefit is treated in that manner. On the Department of Justice there was some cri tism that sentencing can be uneven, that two people for an identical crime may get widely different sentences. Well, one really cannot comment on that, that is part of our justice system. The judges look at all the surrounding 2367

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1078 NJ - 2 MR. J. CARTER: . circumstances and, of course, act accordingly. However, it was pointed out in the next department, the Department of the Environment, ·that perhaps people who brea,k the hunting laws receive more severe sentences than those who break ~ in other words , a person can get more for killing a moose on purpose than they can for killing a person accidently. It would ma.~e for a very interesting debate,because it was po,i,nted out that the sentences for breaches of the hunting laws car;r-:i,ed Draconian penalties 1whereas certainly the hit and r'Q,!l drivers, and those who cause accidental death and injury,seem to get off relatively lightly. 2368

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1079 JV - l MR. CARTER: Itis a point that will always be debated,I suppose, but I think it should be debated and considered at great length. In the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth- MR. HODDER: (Inaudible) the Department of Consumer Affairs is responsible for all that. MR. CARTER: Well, I obviously cannot, in the fifteen minutes allotted to me,touch on everything but I will gladly respond to any questions opposite . I have always made it a point by the way Mr. Speaker, if an han. member wishes to interrupt and make a comment I will gladly give way and I still stand by that.

In the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, the quadricentennial celebrations received some attention and quite a few questions were asked about it,and it is with some pleasure that we note that the Prince and Princess of Wales will be coming to visit this Province in June. The Department of Social Services - the discussion of rates~ The minister advised us that the rates were being raised marginally this year in recognition of the inflationary tendencies for everything, and the Leader of the Opposition (.Mr.

Neary), himself, saw fit to come and act as Acting Vice-Chairman for those estimates and he was naturally given the floor for as long as he wanted it and he made great use of it. In fact 1 during the entire evening his was the principal voic~ heard and I do not think that he can complain that hedid not have all the opportunity in the world to ask all the questions he wanted to. And I would say that in our Committee the Vice-Chairman or Acting Vice-Chairman, whatever the case may be,who is a spokesman for the 2369

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1079 JV - 2 MR. CARTER: Opposition on that particular department,was given absolutely free reign and was always recognized first and could speak with some reasonable limitation for as long as he wanted to; recognized as often as he wanted to be recognized and with complete concurrence at the end of the session the estimates were passed.

If the Opposition had wanted another session, well, I certainly would not have and could not have denied it tothem, so I reject any criticism of that aspect of the committee system, I think, not only does it work well for the estimates, I think it will work well, extremely well,especially for complicated legislation and there is some complicated legislation that will come before this House in the not too-distant future and any large complicated bills, I think, could be handled not entirely in the committee stage but partially in the committee stage by going into not Committee of the Whole but a special committee on that aspect of legislation. where it could be chewed over and worked through and thought through and I think everyone would benefit from it.

So there are a lot of points that could be made and I think bon. gentlemen will continue to make them. Just because I sit down it does not mean to say I will not be able to have another'kick at the cat'as they say, but I will sit down now and let other members comment on these six departments. 237D

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1080 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Ay lward ) : MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I believe I was the Vice-Chairman of that particular committee. I say I believe because the way the committees are structured, and I have been trying to go to as many as possible - MR . STAGG: (Inaudible) MR. LUSH: I challenge any member, I think I got to a fair number of the committees. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. LUSH: town on that one. I was there (inaudible). Circumstances took me out of But, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to say that the hon. gentleman talked about again how the system worked well.

Now,I am going to say something unusual. I have to say that I find the hon. gentleman a surprisingly good Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: He is very flexible, I must say. It seems as though he becomes a different individual in the committees. In the committees he is an excellent man. I served with him on the PAC and I find the hon. gentleman a good man there,too. I think I have served with_ him now on several of the Estimate Committees and I have to say he is a good Chairman, a surprisingly good Chairman, a different man altogether from when he leaves ·the H:ous ·e.

As a matter of fact, I sometimes wonder why the hon. gentleman, when I look at him in committee, I sometimes wonder why he is not a Cabinet Minister. I am sure he wants to be one, but I suppose he must have a flaw - somewher~. There must be a flaw,because r believe he would like to be a Cabinet Minister. I suppose it is because in th .e. House he becomes so vindictive and so malicious and mischievous that they figure that he cannot carry · out the role as Cabinet Minister. But in the committee, enough . said, 2371

April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1080 SD - 2 MR. LUSH: he is a good Chairman, very flexible and allows a lot of discussion and it is a pretty free and open discussion. I certainly compliment the han. gentleman on the way that he has handled or carried out his responsibility as Chairman of the Committee. That does not say, of course, that I do not have the same reservations about the committee system that I made yesterday in the House.

And again, just to repeat, I think, number one, the way that they are structured now, particularly with the numbers that we have 1 is that they are too crowded, they do not give members on this side the time to give them the thorough analysis that we should,to do the preparation and study. There seems to be a rush to get it all over with and there is no necessity for that. Having two committee meetings a day along with the opening of the House, it is really not necessary. The government is in a rush to get it all over with and get the House closed down.

That seems to be the impression, to get these committees all through. And, of course, the less scrutiny they can _get, the happier they are. I have said,also,that it makes: it difficult for the press when we have all of these meetings scheduled morning and evening and then the -House in th.e afternoon. It certainly makes it difficult for the press to attend all of these meetings. They only have so much manpower,particularly in these times of restraints. They are not hiring 2372

April 15, 1983 Tape 1081 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: extra people so it makes it very, very difficult for the press to cover and, of course, that is a sad situation because the people of our Province have no way to be informed of what is taking place, what is happening with th~ fiscal and the public policy of this Province and they have a right to know. So it certainly makes it difficult. We have had some committees done, I think, without any reference at all in the media. I know one meeting I attended where there was not one single person from the Press.

Now, we carried on a second time, because I hung the thing up on two issues~ one was, of course, transportation, where the minister would not provide us with the list of areas that are going to receive capital expenditures this year fa~ road construction and paving. I wanted to see that list, so I delayed it as long as I could. And the other reason, of course, was that the press were not present and I wanted to see if the next night the press would attend to get some coverage on that big Department of Transportation.

Another reason, of course, was I wanted to make the point clear about the needs of the Terra Nova district with respect to road construction and paving. Mr. Speaker, that was all 1 could do, because with the government majority and the time restrictions, I could not hold up the Committee any longer, I said I woulg hold it up almost until Christmas ~f I could, but I did not have that power, I did not have that right and I could not do it. So, Mr. Speaker, these are the reservations I would like to make and the concerns that I· have about the committee system.

As I :=;ay, there are s·ome han. members on this side who think that it should be ruled out and that we should do all of the 2373

.A.pri,l 1.5, l.983 Tape 1.081 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: debate, all of the estimates on the floor of the House, There are some members who believe that and that is their right. I think it can work the way it is working if the government would be a little more flexible, a little more understanding and would not be ;i.n such a rush to get it all over with, would consider the numbers on this side and would consider tne difficulties that tne press have in getting to these· ·meetings.

With a little bit of flexibility, with a little bit of understanding on the part of the government, if they really w-anted this system to work they could get it to work, there is no question about that. But, as I say, th .ere seems to be an inclination by tne govermnent - not an ~nclination, that is not strong enough, an effort, a determined effort, a blatant effort by the government to get it all over with, to get the discussion all over with as quickly as possibl.e, if no press snows they are haPpY, and to get the thing out of the way so that they can close down the House because ., Mr.

Speaker, they cannot take the heat. They know that there are a lot of problems in th;is :Province today and they want to get outside of the House, of course, where they can carry on tneir propaganda campaign behind tne mikes and this sort of thing, where they do not have the Opposition co~ng at them, where they do not have to answer. l'hey can get out and get behind cameras and get behind mik.es and in their offices and just sqtlirt Otlt their poison without, as · I say, havi.ng the Opposition there to come a, t them, This is what they want to do, get out, Mr.

Speaker. !f we can get out of here- I expect we w·ill be aut of here · by the middle of May, if not sooner. Now, they have May, June, July, August, September, October and November, all of that time when the ministers can get out and get behind the mikes, call their press conferences 2374

April 15 , 1983 Tape 1081 EC - 3 MR. LUSH : and start squirting their venom and their poison at the federal government or anybody else who comes their way, the teachers or whoever it is, and , as I say, without having the Opposition there to give it another perspective , without the Opposition there on their backs and telling the people the truth about this government. That is what they want to do, Mr. Speaker. If the government, as I say, wanted to get these committees to work they could, by being a little bit more flexible , by being a lit tle bit more understanding 2375

April 15, 1983 Tape 1082 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: of the circumstances that we are now faced with. So I hope, Mr. Speaker, that they heed my words. I hope that the press will report our concerns about this committee system so that people will know that they are not getting the analysis that they should be getting because of the time constraints and because of the lack of the number of people in the Opposition and because the press cannot attend all of the meetings. We cannot blame the press, there is only a certain amount of manpower they have and they cann~t be here all day long. AN HON. MEMBER: Manpower and womanpower.

MR. LUSH: Well ,I use manpower in the universal sense. And that is the way our government recognizes it, because they call it the Department of Labour and Manpower, right? So I use that term in the universal, I do not know if that is the right ad3ective or not, but all encompassing sense that includes males and females. MR. MARSHALL: MR. LUSH: MR. MARSHALL: You are a master at speaki~~ words - Pardon? You are a master at speaking words without making sense. You are paraphrasing your words now. MR. LUSH: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is not bad at that himself.

When he does come up with any content it is always malicious and vicious,when he does come up with any content. But, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make a few observations on Education. Again in the Committee we came at the government for their taking away the student aid from the students of this Province, making it rough for our students to get an education, to get a post-secondary education by raising the ceiling loan. And it is amazing how the minister squirmed, Mr. Speaker, and tried to defend that move, tried to defend the indefensible; tried to suggest that the students of 2376

April 15, 1983 Tape 1082 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: this Province were not going to be deprived of an education because they raised the loan ceiling. ' Now,what a ridiculous 2377

,:., April 15, 1983 Tape No. 1083 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: to force a student to borrow more money and say that was not going to hurt - that was not going to hurt, to force a student to borrowmore money. And again, as so often happens in this hon. Rouse, we found out that the rtinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) agreed that the ~tudents had to borrow more money, that they were going to put themselves more in the hole, th