VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m . THURSDAY, MAY 4, 1978 NO. 49 I I· ~1 . ; . ;

~'ay 4, 19713 The House met at 2:~0 P.M. ~!r. Speak~r in the Chair. ~l!:t. SPEAKER: Tape 1788 Order, please! I am pleased to w·elcome to the gallery today eleven students with their teacher,Hr. Hilliam Barry, from the !'ramp ton Elementary School in !- 'onksto~m 7 in the district of Burin - Placentia '.>lest. I kno'' hon. members join me in '•elcorning these students and their teacher. TTear, hear! ~"R. SPEAKER: I am also pleased to >relcome on Dl-7 - 1 behalf of hon. members,members of the Bay d' Espoir Steering Committee on job creation. They are the Chairman of the C::oTT!!!'ittee ''r.

John Tremblett and other l!le!!!hers ~!r. l'.oberts, Hr. Kielley, 'fr. r.Tilcott and ~fr. Barnes. SC:'F ;~'JN. ~!':RS: Rear, hear! S'l'AT~'l'S B'! 'ITNISTEF.S MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~ffi. IJ. !:ARTER: ~r. S?eaker, it gives me some pleasure to renort to the House the activities of the ~isheries Loan Board during the first four months of the present year as well as to table statistics >nth respect to the previous year's operation~and yes going back to 1971.

The most recent :;:eeting of the Fisheries !.oan I:oard su\·l eig:::::,.• loans to fisc1ermen bein'l: approved o7ith a value of $900,0QO all .for the purpose of ~uying new boats,used ?oats and other equipment used for fishing. "For the first four months, Yr. Speaker, of the present ~ear, from January 1 to May 1, we have seen 519 loans approved as opposed to 352 in the same period in the previous year.

This year $4.5 million have been loaned the first four nonths as opposed to $3.9 million in the same period last year_ 72 per cent of the applications received were approved during the first four month period of this year. ~h:. Speaker, the fiscal 1977/?f!. saw unprecedented gro~vth in the 'Fisheries Loan Board when 1 in fact,S!~ loans were approved totalling $0 .2 million . i r

~~ay 4, 1978 Tape 1788 m~- 2 ~!R. \oJ. CARTER: $1.2 million of which was for new vessel construction, $6.8 million for the purchase of used vessels and $1.1 million for miscellaneous equipment used on fishing vessels. During the past seven years, !·~r. Speaker, going back to 19711 for example 1 t>e have seen a 38!) per cent increase in the number of loans approved.

We have seen in that seven-or ei~ht years since 1971 a 1,667 per cent increase in the amount of money loaned by the Fisheries Loan Board. ~lle have seen since 1971 an increase in the amount of money loaned to fis~ermen to buy net• vessels of 469 per cent. He have seen 6,000 per cent inc.rei'IS~ in the amount of money that has been loaned by the board for the purchase of used vessels. llle have seen a 664 per cent increase in the amount of money loaned by the Fisheries Loan Board for the purchase of miscellaneous equipment. And that, ~~.

Speaker, I think, speaks well for the Fisheries Loan Board and the substantial increases in the past couple of years. I thiru~ it is pretty well indicative of the added interest in the fishing industry and related activity. So, Mr. Speaker, like I said I am very pleased to table these docucents for the information of hen. members. so!-IE umr. ~~IDmEns : Hear, hear! The hon . ~~mber for Trinity - Bay de Verde. '"1': • J1.

P.m.7E: I do not have all of the data and statistics in front of me that the minister put before the House relating to the Fisheries Loan Board 1 but I would like to comment on the fact tha~ <re have this great increase in the amount of ~oney being loaned by the loan board. The boat construction, net·1 boat construction~an~ the buying of used boats is indicative of the increasing interest and the faith the people have in the fishing industry in this Province at the present time which I would submit, Sir, is caused r

May 4,1978 Tape No, 1789 AH-1 MR.F.ROWE: greatly by the institution of the 200 mile limit. Sir, some people are suggesting that an awful lot of people are returning to the fisheries because of the high unemployment in the Province, iu the construction industry and what have you. I would rather think, Sir~this may, in fact,be a factor-but I would rather think that more mewfoundlanders now are seeing a bright future in the fisheries and this is why we see the increase in the amount of loans and in the amount of boats being purchased by the fishermen in our Province.

So, Sir, it is good news to hear that more fishermen are availing themselves of the money that is made available by the Fisheries Loan Board and I hope that the fishing industry and the fisheries will continue to increa~e yearly into the future so that it will be a major component in our finances in this Province, a major component in as far as the work force is concerned and a major contributor to the revenue of the Province. :·IR. SDlHONS: Hr. Speaker, a matter o~perhaps,privilege or explanation.! meant to raise earlier but the minister beat me to the punch.

It is not a serious matter but for the record I would just like to draw the attention of the House to a story in the Evening Telegram of yesterday's date, Nay 3rd, page two. The story in part mentions the Premier's statement in ~;lrl.ch he indicated that he was correcting some information about tickets at St.John's airport and, I think, as I recall, that he referred to Mr. Randy Simms at the time. The way the story comes out, my name gets in the paper as havir~ not picked up the ticket, that I can confirm• One, I did not pick it up ·, · two, it w.1s not there; and worse still, I was not even offered a ticket, Hr.

Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions, ~inisterial Statements. We have leave to revert to ~1inisterial Statements. The hen. minister. 11R. PECKFORD: I take gre.at pleasure in annou,lcing that Cabinet today approved applications by ~ lobil Oil Canada, Limited for twenty-one first round exploratory permits covering some 6.5 II I

Hay 4,1978 Tape No. 1789 Aii-2 :1R. PECKFORD: million acres pursuant to

Section 139 of the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Regulations. Cabinet also approved 11: nUIIlber of amendments in the regulations which are of a housekeeping nature and which in no way affect the thrust or substantive provisions of the regulations. The House will recall that on ¥-arch 1,1978> nine exploratory permits were issued to Shell Canada Resources Lil:lited.

The issuance of these permits to ~lobil Canada is yet •! - . a further indication that the Province's firm yet reasonable regulations do form the basis upon which exploration can go forward on terms which are both acceptable to the oil companies and yet truly protective of the interests of the people of this Province. For instance,one of our main concerns has been the vast amount of acreage under federal permit, a fact which if duplicated would make effective control of offshore development very difficult.

In li~ht of this,it is important to note that Hobil 's new permits cover only about 56 pex;: cent of the area held under federal permit by Mobil at the date of its first application for provincial permits in January of this year. Mobil 's twenty-one permits lie in relatively sl1allow water compared with the Shell peroits, ranging in depth from 250 feet to 1200 feet and are centered some 200 miles due East of St.

John's pursuant to the re;;ulations the five 'N'ells Mobil has already drill!=d in the area under provincial interim permits will be taken as fulfilling :-!obil 's drilling obligations for the initial exploration period,which fo'r sixteen of the twenty-one permits is three years.At the end of that period l!obil will have to co=it to drill further wells or drop its peroits. However,while Mobil will not have the obligation to drill during that initial period,it will have the clear unfettered right to do so, having previously obtained federal permits for the same acreage.Mobil 's title,then,will be unaffected by the

~lay 4,1973 Tape No . 1789 Ali-3 HR . PECJQ"ORD: outcome of the fo rt hcoming offshore minerals referen.ce of tile Supreme Court of Canada . - a reference I am con.fiden.t we Will win. Mobil's t . .rln group of permits are centered on their Ado1pbus 2K-41 well which was drilled in 1973 and which tested oil at a rate of 268 barrels per day - a non-commercial but nevertheless significant find.

May 4, 1978, Tape 1790, Page l -- apb In light of this encouragement and Mobil's new security of title, I am cautiously optimistic that Mobil will resume drilling on its permits in .the near future. Mobil will, of course, immrnediately undertake an education and training and research and development programme as required by the regulations and starting in the permit year, 1978-79, will be spending,therefore, some $300,000 annually on that programme. I will be having discussions with Mobil in the near future to finalize details of their programme.

Combined with the Shell/Texaco's programme, Mobil's expenditures increa~e the amount of money committed so far to $540,000 per year and I am confident will go much higher,giving us the means whereby the residents and companies from this Province will be actively engaged in the development of our offshore oil and gas resources at the highest technical level. Mr. Speaker, the - issuance of these permits to Mobil· Oil Canada is yet another step on our way to the full victory in our offshoreminerals struggle with Ottawa which I am sure will be ours.

By such acts,we demonstrate not only the high regard in which the oil industry holds our chances in court, but more importantly our vision to be able to set a policy which is firm yet reasonable. Our regulations recognize in full the vast technological challenges and financial risks faced by the oil companies in exploring our offshore. However, Mr. Speaker, that recognition does not mean that the interests of the people of this Province need come second to ·I ~ t I· '

May 4, 1978, Tape 1790, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: those of the companies. I am confident, Mr. Speaker, that the people of this Province have both the wisdom and the determination to insist that their offshore oil and gas resources,which are their heritage and birthright,are properly managed and that in the face of this determination the oil companies will be good corporate citizens. Having made that clear, on. behalf of the government and people of this Province, I welcome Mobil Oil Canada's exploration team back to the Province and wish them every success. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, before the hon. member starts I would just like to point out to the Pages that I have the fifty copies,so all han. members can get them immediately. MR. STRACHAN: I revert to a statement by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) yesterday in which he stated that statements are made, fairly technical statements to which we have to respond and obviously have no copies in front of us . I would like to raise a few points on what the minister has stated here.

Number one, the minister has very clearly stated in his statement here that the new security of title is important, and that they have obtained a provincial permit and with their previous federal permit it therefore allows them to get this new security of title. I wonder,therefore, if all companies who apply for provincial and federal permits and get both, as many have been doing, have had,therefore, the security for some time?

I also wonder whether the argument opposite that the federal government's unwillingness to deal, or their unwillingness to come to a decision on the seabed is not really so, inasmuch as,if they have the two permits the y can therefore have good security of title in drilling?

May 4, 1978, Tape 1790, Page 3 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: I also wonder, in the statement here, if possibly five wells in three years, as I understand it, five wells in three years is a sufficient rate of exploration and whether over the next three years - that will be up to 1981, or whatever it is - if that is a sufficient rate of exploration and whether more wells should not be required to be drilled? The last point I wish to raise here is that Mobil Oil will be drilling on 56 per cent of the acreage which they have been allowed under federal permit.

The problem has always been as stated by the minister, that much of the acreages have been very, very large acreages especially, for instance, Eastcan's and various other groups, and that these acreages must be reduced. I wonder whether Mobil's acreages have been reduced to half of what it held on their federal permit?

Or at least, applied to the provincial: regulations, whether this is due to knowledge that, of course, they may not require the other 44 per cent which is of little use to them because they do not feel there is any advantage in that territory and, therefore, their application for only 56 per cent is a tactical move on their part, realizing there is a high possibility of success from their previous well drilling? That is basically the number of points which -are raised in the minister's statement. They still have permits, I see, for 6.9 million acres.

The 56 per cent is still on 6.9 million acres which is still a fairly extensive territory.

May 4, 1978 Tape 1791 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: And I sometimes question whether we are pushing fast enough. I understand the companies are reluctant to deal with us, but I wonder whether we are not falling back a little bit in trying to encourage them to come in. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER : I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 827 residents of St. John's and surrounding areas. The prayer of the petition is to the hon. House of Assembly: ~whereas the quality of schooling that our children will be receiving this coming year will be reduced because there will be fewer teachers in schools attended by our children, and

whereas some of the educational services that our children have been recei•ing are to be eliminated, therefore, the undersigned humbly petition the bon. House of Assembly that a freeze be imposed on teacher reductions until such time as it can be established through a comprehensive study that the quality of education will not be adversely affected.~ Now, Mr. Speaker, this petition has been solicited by the Concerned Parents' Association which is based here in St. John's.

In part, some of the names were collected at a meeting that was held last night where the Minister of Education defended the government's policies unsuccessfully and a meeting which was attended by some 800 parents from the various areas around the city. Now, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House on many occasions, and on every occasion that we have had the opportunity, have asked that a freeze I

May 4, 1978 Tape 1791 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: be placed on the pupil/teacher ratio, particularly until such time as the Task Force have brought in their recommendations. And I might say something about the Task Force - that this decision was made and then a Task Force was set up to find out what the effects would be. Now I believe, Mr. Speaker, that . the Task Force should have been given time to complete its job. The Task Force should have been set up a year ago if the government were contemplating this particular act.

The Task Force should have been made up, and I agree with almost every person who spoke last night at that meeting, that the Task Force is insufficient; it is made up of two professors from the university; it has no representation by parents on it; it has.no representation of teachers and the Task Force should have been much broader. There should have been more individuals and it should have had much more time to look at the problems. I believe one of their reports is supposed to be in by June - that is not enough time to look into the problems that face education in this Province today. Now I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that hon. gentlemen on the other side - the Minister of Education and all other gentlemen - are not aware of the effects that these teacher cutbacks are having on our schools in this Province. Last night I observed about 500 or 600 or 700 or 800 people ther~ - I did not count them - there was a massive auditorium full of people, one after the other getting up and saying that this will affect the quality of education, but yet the minister refuses to listen.

He admits he has not been in schools - he has been away from the schools, he has visited a few classrooms in the Province, but he refuses to admit that the quality of education - when all the evidence is there.

May 4, 1978 Tape 1791 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: Now I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this government has to put a freeze on the pupil/ teacher ratio for next year, and I think that Task Force should be reformed with proper representation and proper time to carry out their task. Mr. Speaker, I fear at this ,, E present time that if the trend as we now see it is permitted , to continue that we will see the teachers in the classrooms returning to standardized testing, dependency on textbooks and large classes, and I do not think that this should be allowed to happen. At this present time we should be looking to education.

Education is the key to the development of J ! this Province and if we are going to be active,participating citizens in this Province and know what.our resources are t and where they are and how to deal with them, then we are going to have to make sure that our educational programme teaches the children what we have and what we are.

May 4, 1978 Tape 1792 Pk - l Mr. Hodder: And I call on the government at this time to reverse their stand on this particular matter because it is one that goes to the heart of every Newfoundlander in the Province. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, followed by the hon. gentleman for Grand Falls. MR. W. ROWE: Thank you, Sir. I would like to support the petition so ably presented by my han. colleague, Sir, our spokesman on this side in all matters pertaining to education.

The petition is signed by, as I heard it, 827 people, which I would imagine would be just about all of those,or most of those who were at that meeting last night together with more, and others as well, Sir, this is a tremendous number of names of concerned people to support any kind of a petition, sponsored particularly by this Concerned Parents' Association. I was not able to get to the meeting last night, although I wanted to, but I had a prior commitment. MR. NEARY: Where you at ~ally Haly? MR. W. ROWE: No, I was not at Bally Haly with the bon. the Premier. MR. NEARY: No. MR. W.

ROWE: But I had another commitment, and several of my colleagues where there, Sir. And anyone who was there was amazed at the number and quality of the turn out at that particular meeting, Sir. Your Honour being in politics realizes how difficult it is to get that number of people to come to any kind of a meeting concerning any matter. People have to be very moved, concerned, involved, worried, anxious in order to turn out in that number, Sir, to go to a meeting these days. It must have been one of the biggest meetings held in the St. John•s area in recent years.

But they came out, Sir. and reports that I have received from my colleagues and others indicate that they are indeed very concerned, and the Concerned Parents' Association is not wrongly named. Sir, we support the petition. We believe that a unilateral decision to decrease the number of teachers is arbitrary, firstly. ':. ,I ·I

May 4, 1978 Tape 1792 PK - 2 Mr. W; Rowe: and secondly, Sir, we think that it will have the adverse effect of diminishing the quality of education in this Province. Or at least, Sir, let me go this far; the burden of proof is on the government to show that any cutback in the number of teachers will not diminish education standards in this Province, Sir, and they have failed miserably todate in relieving themselves of that burden, all evidents points to the contrary.

Not only teachers, Sir, who can carry their own brief in this matter, perhaps the most articulate· group of people in out Province, the most energetic, the most involved, they can carry their own brief on their own particular problem through the NTA, and individually, but, Sir, concerned parents have this same feeling. Other people involved, directly or peripherally, in education have this same complaint and this same fear,that the quality of schooling, the quality of education in our Province will,in fact, go down.

We support the idea and the cbncept of a freeze on all educational cutbacks imposed by this government until such time as we do have the result of the Task Force report, not the interim one, but the final Task Force report, and I doubt very much, Sir, I do not want to prejudice the return that will be brought in by that report and that group, but I doubt very much, Sir, if they will say that the cutback of teachers will not have the effect of diminishing the quality of education.

Because, Sir, as long as we in this Province have one half of the rate across Canada,per capita,of graduates from trade schools, and from universities, as long as that miserable standard obtains in this Province, Sir, and as long as we lag behind the rest of Canada on the average in other fields of education,then, Sir, no step should or can be taken by the government which will or runs the serious risk of diminishing standards and quality of education in our Province. The most worrisome point about the whole action taken by the government, Mr.

Speaker, is that they first took the action which will probably in all likelihood have a very adverse affect on

May 4, 1978 Tape 1792 Pk - 3 Jolr. W. Rowe: education and then decided to set up the Task Force which is putting the cart before the horse,to say the least, and as l said in the H.ouse before, is really imposing the sentence before the trial . Let us have the trial first and then see what the outcome will be1 based on all of the evidence. Sir, one . of the things that I hope people do to the Task Force, submit to the Task Force for their interim report is submit t:ha.t other people should be on the Task Force itself, people from !

May 4, 1978 Tape No, 1793 NM- 1 MR. W. ROWE: other areas of society, concerned parents, teachers from schools, not only the two university professors but other people as well covering a broad rauge, .a broad spectrum of our society so that the final report will not be a narrow one, will not be the product of straightened vision on behalf of any one or two individuals, but will cover the whole range, from a wide variety of viewpoints and opinions cover : the whole range of education in this Province. We support the petition, Sir.

We think there should be a freeze on teacher cutbacks and other educational cutbacks in the Province until such time as all the evidence is in and rational, sensible, sane decisions can be made about these single, most important aspect of life and government in this Province today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize the hen. gentleman for Grand Falls next, followed by the hon. gentleman for Burgee - Bay d 1Espoir. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I too had the opportunity, with several of my colleagues last evening, and with Your Honour, to attend the important meeting which was held by the parents here in St. John's, representing St, John's, Conception Bay and the Southern Shore,! believe,as well. And I think the parents did a tremendous job and some of the teachers who were there as well, in presenting their case. It was an impassioned plea and the thing that impressed me the most was the fact that we are getting for the first time in recent history, a very, very enlightened debate on education.

It is overdue and it took something like this issue, perhaps, to bring it into focus and bring it to a head. And I think all members of the Legislature will do well to listen to parent groups around the Province who are engaging in the debate on education. That in itself is a very healthy endeavour. I

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1793 MR.. LUNDRIGAN: I had a great deal of empathy with the Minister of Education, who stood there and did a tremendous job ~ feeling questions. Some of them were a little bit snarky. Once in a while he got a rough ride and I believe that he has shown a lot of courage in going around the Province and engaging as he did last evening in debate on this particular point. He is a professional educator. I have a lot of admiration for him.

There is a point being missed, and this NM- 2 is the only point I really want to make, aside from saying that I would hope that we can have a good debate one day in the Legislature overall on this one issue. The point I ' want to make, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that in our schools today we have been getting a reduction in the number of students enrolled. I cannot quote the precise number. I think it peaked about five years ago to 162,000, I believe today it is roughly 150,000 students, the high forty thousands, in that particular area.

And as a result of that 7 of course, we are getting a levelling off of the number of teachers and the impending decline in the number of teachers. People are overlooking, last evening it was overlooked, it was not raised by one person - the only reason I did not raise it myself is that it was the parents night, or the St.

John's members night, if you want, if they wanted to get involved - it was not raised by the Newfoudland Teachers Association to any great extent~ it has not been raised by the parent-teacher groups to any great extent, it has not been raised by the school boards to any great extent and it has not been raised to any great extent in the Legislature? and that is that we have today one of the most tragic situations in that only 34 per cent, in the latest statistics I have, of the students who actually start school complete successfully their grade eleven education.

And God knows grade eleven is a minimum standard today for every young person in our Province. If he wants to even engage,let alone in an

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1793 NM- 3 MR. LUNDRIG4\N: economi .c way in our society, just: to live in the twentieth cen.tury you have to ha.ve a lllinim1,1111 of grade eleven ·education. Thirty-four per cent are completing, and I am quoting from DT. Art Sullivan._ B:ts statistics are a year or so old, a~~,d what he did was to go back and get the numbey of people enrolled back in 1961 and brought the statistics right up through to '71 and then '72, '62 - '72, '63 - '73 and the like, and he concluded out of roughly 15,000 studeuts starting, 5,000 successfully complete.

Bearing in mind, of course,~ argume11-t against my point is that some of these were transferred out of the Province, but; 34 per cent. Iu Ontario, Alberta and Quebec it is precisely double that number of students wb.o successfully complete grade eleven. And today, if we could re~ain in our schoolS the pr6llo11derance of the people who start school, we today would be loold.ng at several hundred new teachers needed in. Se})tembe.r of 1978. - t '

May 4, 1978 Tape 1794 EC - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: I cannot get into debate today, Your Honour, but the big question mark is;Why are the students not staying in school? There has been a lot of research done on it. Some of it reflects on the economic situation, some of it reflects on the expectations, which are false expectations 7 0f young people thinking they can get out in the field and make money when,in fact,it is very, very difficult for them to get a job in any event and twice as difficult if they do not have a formal education of at least Grade XI.

And the second thing has to do with programme, not more courses,but the relevancy between much of our programme and the economic environment of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. And those are the questions that have to be addressed. And I think we are doing a small bit of a disservice, all of us as parents, in getting hung up totally on the legitimate but single issue of pupil/teacher ratio.

And I hope when the other groups start and the thing blossoms, as it will, it is not going to die, it is going to continue to be a live issue, and I hope that caucuses on both sides and the government, when the Task Force is completed,will look realistically at the report, but I do hope that we can broaden our argument from the pupil/teacher ratio to the entire problem of education in the Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I would recognize the hon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir next. MR. SIMMONS: Xr.

Speaker, I, too, had the great privilege of attending that meeting last night at Holy Heart of Mary auditorium together with my colleague from Port au Port and other members of the Legislature. • l I

May 4, 1978 Tape 1794 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: The meeting itself was very reassuring in that it confirmed what I have felt for some time and something which is contrary to the propaganda ~n this issue, the propaganda being that only the teachers are selfishly concerned about their own welfare. Last night, Mr. Speaker, the numbers there alone were confirmation enough for me that the parents are very involved in this issue as well, very involved.

That they would come out - it was a nice night to do your gardening and to do a number of other things last night, but they passed all that up and came out to a ~eeting in large numbers, as you, Mr. Speaker, will know from your attendance there as well. Mr. Speaker, the issue that came across most last night - and I should say also that I did not envy the Minister of Education the job that he was obliged to do last night, I did not envy him at all - the issue that came across most for me was first of all the total inflexibility of the minister and the government on this particular issue.

I realize that in government you have to make decisions which are not necessarily going to be applauded every moment of the day, but when you get to the point, Mr. Speaker, where you refuse to listen, that is a very sad day for the people talking and the people who sh~uld be listening. what was happening last night. And that was essentially Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition mentioned a phrase that was mentioned a couple of times last night- 'the cart before the horse'.

It seems to me that if you are going to have a Task Force, and you are also going to have some changes in the allocation of teachers' salary units 7 if you are going

May 4, 1978 Tape 1794 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: to do both these things, a change in the allocation and a study, it seems to me that you ought to have the study first and then the decisions after. It has happened in reverse here. I believe like nowhere else, Mr. Speaker, this is a case where you have to look before you leap. You have to know what you are doing because so much is at stake. Our number one human resource is at stake, the children, the adults of tomorrow. I only wish that all members of the Legislature could hear the essence of what was said last night.

Some of the people raised the question as to whether the Task Force was in some respects a scapegoat. One gentleman referred to it as a snow job. And when you look, Mr. Speaker, at the sequence of events, when you look at the decision to reallocate units first and then the study after, you cannot help but wonder if the gentleman from the Southern Shore who used the word snow job' last night was not hitting fairly close to home. Xr. Speaker, the Task Force has been appointed and I do not expect that the government is going to change its mind on that now. Two men have been put to work.

The ~inister of Education has not told us yet at what price. I hope he will in time tell us how much these gentlemen are being paid and what th~ projected cost of the study is going to be. The minister indicated last night they are full-time people and that was news to we as well, and if that is the case, then I think the minister at some point might make a clarifying statement on what these people are doing, how much time they have to do it, whether it is full-time, part-time, and what j f r

May 4, 1978 Tape 1794 EC - 4 MR. SIMMONS: they are getting paid for the job. But, Mr. Speaker, to the real issue here. The Task Force is not going to be withdrawn now, I would suggest. It certainly can be broadened and there is no practical obstacle against its being broadened. There was a very impassioned plea last night to the minister to broaden the base of this Task Force, and it can be done by representation from parents and perhaps other groups. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the House would be interested in knowing that the Premier had a written representation from the Concerned Parents' Committee to the effect ~ I

,. l!L' ~~ay 4, 1978 Tape 1795 DH - 1 ~. R. STI'J'~ONS: that the group be broadened to include P!irents. Hhat is even more inciteful, !'r. Spe!!ker, is that the Premier in responding to that letter used the wrong form letter and no~~here in his reply did he address !-\imself to the question of representation an the Task Force. ~r. Speaker, these people have a mandate they represent the parents of 45,00n school students. :!!' .. !lEARY: \Jas this meeting last night for all of St. John's? 'fP .• R. SP~'0~1 S: I gather- ~:R. NEARY: l-lell, where were the rest of the St. John's members? !-!R, R.

SI~fr!ONS: Oh, no in fiairness, "r . Speaker, there were a number of St. John's members at the session 7 I think, six or seven• ~:R. ~1EARY: ~-7as 'An1:' there? M.R. ".. SP~'ONS : There were a number of members there , }!r. Speaker, the member. for Ferryland (Hr. Power), the member for Grand Falls (!1r. Lundrigan) , the member for Pleasantville (!~r. Dinn) , the member for St. John's South (Dr. Collins), the member for St. John's :·Jorth (::r. J. Carter) , and the mer:lher for St. John's East (!1r. ~!arsball). If I can just have a hal£ minute to clue up, l·'r. Speaker.

I believe these were the members who were there. Did I miss anybody? I think that is it. :!R. Hl'ITE: l~r. Speaker. :m. 11. . S I !~ !ONS: And, 1 ~r. Speaker, of course 1vho ! have ~e~tioued as well. Just in a brief clue up if I ~~y. !-.'R • A. ::.mF.PHY: (Inaudible) The rr~cber for St. John's Centre (![r. A. l~urphy) does not mind if I clue up? Thank you. Perhaps, :':r. Speaker, a lady who is a !':!ember of a religious order put it best last night,this entire dile=a that ~~e are faced '-Tith,Hhen she said to the audience and to the ~nister having asked a n~ber of questions, questions, Mr.

Speaker,I submit were not so much snarky as they 1-rere brimming with feeling and gut feeling and emotion of oarEmt" who are not prepared to stand idly by and allow their children to be

Hay 4, 1978 Tape 1795 NR. ot. SI:fiONS: hurt by a callous decision of government, she put it best when she said this "I am left," and I am quoting exactly what she said, she sAid ''1-!r. !<!inister, I am left to : assume that your government has not got a firm committment to the quality of education." SOHE RON. :1P.-lBEP.S: Hear, hear! ~:R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's South followed by the hen. gentleman for Terra ~!ova. DR. COLLI~:S: Hr.

Speaker, in rising in support of this petition dealing with the matter of the freeze on teacher - pupil ratio from now until studies have come to hand, I might mention that I was also at the meeting mentioned by other me~~ers last evening and I had an opportunity of discussing the meeting in prospects•with some cf the organizers beforehand. One of the organizers pointed out that they were a bit disappointed with the turn-out.

I mentioned that I had a bit of difficulty parking myself and that when I got into the auditorium I expected to have difficulty sitting rlown.gut the organizer told me that,of course, this parking area is used for ~ny other people as well as those attending the Iloly Heart. And in actual fact ~~hen one got in, there were seats available for XHA's who were invited and one felt like a pimple on something or other because one was off by oneself at t':le front of the hall 1dth quite a number of empty rm·rs and t~e others further back.

The meeting itself was delayed a half an hour, I think, partly for the purpose of giving the audience evP-ry opportunity to arrive. l1r. Speaker, I can certainly say that! felt 1 also,that there .vere heartfelt feelings expressed at the meeting and I personally found this extremely reassuring . Because I had wondered myself 1vhether in this day and age parents were not, in actual fact., leavin~·the education oi their chill.dren to a~ undue degree to government,to the teaching profession and so on and so forth. And I must sav I found it a verv healthv """ VPT'V I I 1-, '- I ~ . t ' t . f i r

'·'ay t., 19 78 Te;:>e 17()5 DR. r:'GLLI~TS: reassuring :ooint of vie•,, to find that this did evoke such emotion a,d such connnent. I might also say that ' the emotion '·Tas not all one sided because ~'(T - 3 f I I I ~ . ' ·f t j

7 May 4, 1978 Tape 1796 PK - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: I had to, on one occasion,go out to make a phone call and during the phone call a lady was leaving. She came over to me- and she was acquanited with ' me - she =e over to me and said that she was not going to attend the full extent of the meeting because it was so one-sided, that the points put forward were so one-sided. Why she did not herself comment is not for me to say. I did not comment myself, Mr. Speaker, because it was made clear at the beginning of the meeting that

whereas the M8As were invited they were invited as parents, if such they be, and they were not expected to get into political or controversail arguments. And, I think, that although one MHA did comment, and I certainly do not raise any objections to that, not in any way, but I think that most MHAs from both sides of the House took this to mean that this was by and large a means of getting an expression of opinion from parents. I cannot say in all honesty that I felt that this applied to the considerable number of teachers who also attended ~he meeting.

I did not feel that the teachers who had their every right to comment at the meeting, of course, but I did not get the impression that the teachers in any way felt inhibited from commenting. I was familiar with some of the individuals who rose as being teachers. As a matter of fact ; there was no doubt about it because some of them were in religious orders, orders that in actual fact indicated that thev were not oarent~.

The comment that one heard largel~ I would say, I am not saving exclusivelv by any means. but largerlv from the teachers involvea "he specialist teacher quotient to the schools, and the hon. minister rightly pointed out that the specialist teachers were not in any way being cutback by the moves at present underway. As a matter of fact,he indicated that there was every good reason to think if a case was put forward by any school board that specialist teachers would be looked at, if there was a need to. Mr.

Speaker, one could make further comments, but I will just end by saying that I was a bit disappointed that the important matter of the financing of education was not mentioned, I do not think once. I - ~ I

May 4, 1978 Tape 1796 Pk- 2 MR. SPEAKER: I had indicated I would recognize the hon. gentleman for Terra Nova next. MR.T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great privilege to be able to support this petition on behalf of 827 parents, which, I think, is an excellent turn-out to a meeting that was not,to my knowledge, publicized all that much. And, Mr. Speaker, to me it indicates the intense feeling that the people of St. John's, indeed, of Newfoundland have about education when you can get so many people to turn out to a meeting like this. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that you could not get a larger crowd to turn out on any single issue in this Province today as large as the crowd that turned out there last night for this issue, 827 parents. That is a large turn-out, that is a large public meeting, and it indicates the strong feeling that the people have, that the parents have concerning education today.

I; If there is any major benefit,and I do not think we can talk in terms of benefits in what the goverhment have done, but if there is any benefit at all, it is illustrating the concern that parents have for education.Because in recent years the government have taken a rather nonchalant attitude with respect to education, and not given it the priority that it deserves, and I think the people of Newfoundland are now illustrating that they are not about to have the educational system played around with in this Province, that they are not about to have educational ~uality - the quality of

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1797 NM MR. LUSH: education minimized in this Province,that they want their children to be afforded the best education possible, the best education that this Province can afford to give. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken on a number of occasions about the effects that teacher cutbacks will have in this Province, and in St. John's as well.

The two areas that I have identified; one that the teacher cutbacks will affect the classroom situation itself, that there are many classrooms in Newfoundland where we are going to have to put two and three classes in the one room, that is a most undesirable situation. But the one that I want to speak about mostly here today is the othe~ major effect which is going to affect services and programmes. And we have not been blessed as other Canadian Provinces in any of these areas with respect to special services and pro2rammes.

And these two areas definitely affect the quality of education and equal educational opportunity. Now I have tried to point out that these two are related, that: indeed you canno·t have one without the other. You cannot · have quality without having equal educational opportunity. To suggest otherwise is a very narrow view of education.

In the last ten years educ'ltors have tried to emphasize the importance of meeting the individual needs of students and with a narrow programme, with few services, speciality services like,for example, special services in reading, and counselling, if you cannot offer these things then you cannot meet the individ~l needs of students and therefore you cannot have quality. Now the hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) mentioned the small percentage of students who complete grade eleven and wondered why.

That is certainly one of the major reasons;because our programme is not geared to meet the needs of all students and the programme, the course offerings are not broad enough, it is too restricted. And this is why we are having students drop out from school because they are in programmes l

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1797 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: that do not meet their needs. And in education we have been trying to remedy this situation by bringing in more pro~rammes and we have been effectiveL But the steps that the goverame.ot have now taken with respect to cutbacks is now going to certainly affect the progress that we have made and really is going to put the whole situation of progress and advancement, it is going to retard this and put it behind.

Now I would just like to emphasize the situation, point out again for the benefit of hon. members the pupil/teacher ratio across Canada, and this is for 1976-1977 which illustrates the lack of equal educational opportunty in this Province as compared to other provinces, For example, British Columbia, its ratio is 18.61 students to one teacher. In other words just about eighteen and a half students. Alberta the same thing, 18.5 to one. Saskatchewan, 18.1, The Canadian average is 18.67, for Newfoundland it is 19,7.

Now what that means , and the point that I want to make is that if we were to approach approach the Canadian average, which is what we should be aiming for, if we were to approach the Canadian average in this year, instead of laying off 120 teachers we would be hiring 475. Now, Mr. Speaker, the question we must ask ourselves is what would that mean in terms of quality education, hiring another 475 teachers to meet the Canadian average? What would that mean in terms of programmes and services to our students? Mr. Speaker, I think that should drive home the point to hon. members, and I thank you. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands, followed by the hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I feel I should have a word to say in connection •~th this petition. I notice in the gallery today Bill Callahan, who is a very responsible reporter for the Province of Newfoundland. And I would like to say that it is a very

!1ay 4, 1978 Tape No. 1797 NM- 3 MR. WOODROW: serious problem we are talking about and it is unfortunate that it has to be dragged out in a political arena. If I were on the other ·I r. \ t; , . .i

Hay 4,1978 Tape No. 1798 AH-1 HR. WOODROW: in a political arena. If I were on the other side of the House I do not know how I would feel about it, Maybe I would be a little pre_iudiced towards t"h<> the Hause. HR. SI:.!HONS: Are you orejurltced? ;1R.WOODROW: Perhaps I would be,but just let me continue on. We had last night, there were 827 parents out of a population, say . of, roughly speaking,lOO,OOO people. DR.KITC!lEN; Try focusing on a ~otherhood issue. }JR. WOODROW: Okay~fine.

There is one thing all members are forgetting, and that is we have one of the greatest traditions in Newfoundland, that is we have the BNA Act which gives us the right to de~ominational education. Now I would like to go on record as saying that I have not cbangea my mind towards this yet, I do not know how many hon. members have, and I think in order for us to preserve that denominational system we have to make great sacrifices, We have made the~:~ down through the past, Mr.Speaker, and these great sacrifices have come from the people of this Province.

We went to school in a one room school, we walked,in many cases,siA miles a day. So I am wondering,first of all 1are we going to abolish our denominational system? And I hope that when the Task Force is set up that is one thing that they will speak on, I hope that when we get in this House and debate it - the member for LaPoile (Hr. ~ieary ) is laughing, I do not if he is serious about it or not, I should t:1ink he would be serious about it. ~ffi.. NEARY: A point of order, ~. Speaker. HR. SPE.u<ER: A point of order.

MR.NEARY: I am not laughing at the bon. gentleman,Sir, I am laughing at a joke that ~he Leader of the Opposition just told me. HR. WOODROW: Well, I thought tile :1on. gantleman - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is a difference of opinion, whether tle hon. gentleman was laughing - I t \ ' \. ti

!{ay 4,1978 Tape No. 1798 AH-2 i1R. WOODROW: I thought the hen. gentleman was scoffing at the fact that I am speaking about denominational - MR. NE.<\RY: I feel sorry for the hon. gentleman but I am not laughing at him. AN liON. ME."1BER: You laugh at your leader every day. MR. IDODROW: lfuich of course proves my point. Mr. Speaker, I was saying that I hope when the Task Ferce is set up that the question of denominational education will come in because I am not yet ready to abolish that system in the Province of Newfoundland.

I think that once Christianity goes out of our schools we will loose a lot in ~he Province of Newfoundland. The Province has now $305 million in education, If the Liberal goverocent were in power today would they add $200 million more to that? I do not know.And if th~y would do it,where would it come from? Out of the pocket of our people. "IR. S ll~·lDNS: From George McLean in Men treal. MR. HOODROW: Well,okay. You are not serious,.hon. member, you are joking. SOME HON, MEHBERS : Oh, oh! · MR. WOODROW: This is no joking matter, this is a serious matter.

I feel that the government is certainly responsible in what they are doing, I hope they are.But there is no doubt about it that the government are open to other people helping, For example, they have ~stablished a Task Force and I hope that the results from I : ~ that Task Force,and the debate that I hope we will have in this House before it clsose,that we will come out with a suggestion which will be in keeping, which will help the Province of · Newfoundland and Labrador to give to the children,who are the men and women of tomorrow,a better education in keeping with all the scientific progress that is going on in the world today.

MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated tl~t I will recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South next. -~ J

, . . , i•Iay 4,1978 Tape No. 1798 AI:-3 HR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to follow the gentlemen on both sides who have already addressed themselves to the position as outlined last night in reference to education in this Province and the cutbacks that we have heard so much about. Cbristianity 7it seems to me,has gone through a lot of trials in their days. There have been murders, plots, all religions have suffered at the hands of people with all kinds of motives but I have never seen it used - and especially coming from my hon. friend.

He missed the point altogether on education, • Who denies that Christianity is important in our schools? No one has denied that, not in this House on either side. Christianity was not being bandied about last night. MR. WOODROW: But you are saying that the parents have nothing to do with education. ~1R.. NOLAN: Oh,no! Wait now. I am very happy that the hon. member mentioned that, Mr. Speaker, because tha~ leads me to my next point. MR. SPEAKER: Order,please!-If both hon. gentlemen will hold their peace for a moment. I think it is imperative that the rule of one bon. member SI eaking at a time be observed.

That is an essential rule and I think that w~ereas one can at times be generous in the

interpretation of some,that there a strict requiremex .t is necessary. The hon. member. ;rR.NOLAN: The reason for Che petition and the concern, as my hon. friend opposite surely knows,was the quality of education. Now in ais last remarks from his seat he made reference to parents and that is the whole point.

When a government sets up a group to investigate,as they do in this case, education in this Province~and the gentlemenfrom )!enorial University it is important not only that the information they come up with is accurate in so far as those who are conducting the investigation or the enquiry ~ave the ability to bring it all together,but also that the people that they serve, the people of Newfoundland, the parents, the teachers,

May 4, 1978 Tape 1799 EC - 1 MR. NOLAN: the students believe in it, that· it is an honest effort and that they are going to get their money's worth. So therefore, one cannot avoid the issue. And surely my han. friend opposite who just spoke should be the first to get uP on this point. Why is it that the parents are not represented on this committee? If there is any group in this world that should be there it should be the parents. Why not say that? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Eight hundred and twenty-seven of them. MR. NOLAN: Eight hundred and twenty-seven, as my hon. friend indicates.

But to bring in this red herring, trying to get into the denominational system again, really misses the point completely. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: It is a sad thing to see. One of the most important things in this Province today, and God knows we have our problems, is the fact that right now we have young men and women coming out of the schools here in this Province and will continue to come out in the next few months. And as my han. friend from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) indicated, I believe the figures we have available now indicate that you have somewhere between thirty-four and maybe thirty-seven who complete Grade XI. If you look at the record of unemployment in this Province you will see very clearly that there has been a tremendous failure in finding employment for these students, But there is one thing we have to do if we fail in many other areas, that surely if I "

Uay 4, 1978 Tape 1799 EC - 2 HR. NOLAN: we are going to continue as we are now sending our young people and older people off to the rest of Canada, Iran, Saudi Arabia and everywhere else to work, at least let us send them prepared educationally, let us at least do that for them. Do not make them national or international hewers of wood and drawers of water, the Gunga Dinns of this world emanating from Newfoundland. Do not do that. And do not bring tne denominational situation into this because it is a cheap effort to avoid the issue that is here.

Are we being honest in our approach to the young people in education in this Province? Should, as hon. members have mentioned~ should the inquiry have been set up - MR. WOODROW: I will die a Christian. MR. NOLAN: Well, I am not attempting to hasten the hon. member's death- AN RON. t1EHBER: Neither his death nor his conversion. MR. NOLAN: - nor am I trying to sell him on Islam. He is avoiding the subject again.

What I am talking about is the situation regarding defenceless people in this Province in many instances who are now in kindergarten and going on through primary school and so on, and it is our duty not to make simply political points back and forth, that I am better than you because I am Liberal and so on. That is not the issue. The issue is set up a proper committee.

It should have been done first, by the way, before there were any cutbacks, That is item one, as say those,who were involved, my hon. friends here and opposite who are much closer to the educational system than myself because they have served in it. The committee first, represented by parents on the committee. surely it , .. - ·I

May 4, 1978 Tape 1799 EC - 3 HR. NOLAN: is an insult to set up any committee without having good representation from parents on that committee. And if we do nothing else in this session of the House of Assembly - and there are some people who have some doubts about what we have accomplished in the current session - if we do nothing else, let us at least in the name of all that is holy be honest in our approach,insofar as we are capable, of facing up to this situation that over 800 people addressed themselves to last night.

And I think that if we attempt to skirt the issues there, they are not going to believe any of us by bringing in the denominational system and things like that at this juncture, because it was not - it was not, I maintain - the point that came up in the meetings that our hon. friend attended. So for heavens sake, let us get to that committee. Do not . be stubborn! If there are no parents there represented on that committee, reform it. I am not asking you to change your religion or leave Christianity. Take another look at the committee and do not make a sham of this. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR.

SPEAKER: I recognize

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1800 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: _the hon. member for Trinity- Bay de Verde next. Before he speaks perhaps I will point out that the material allegation of the petition deals with quality of schooling, its relationship to the teacher/pupil ratio, the possibility of adverse effects in educational services because of teacher allocations, the request that a freeze be imposed in reference to a comprehensive study.

Oue hon. gentleman to my left did bring in the matter of denominational education, and at the inception of it obviously one could regard that as an aspect of quality of schooling, and another hon. gentleman to my right has commented on that. I would think now that it would appear to me after having heard two hon. members, one from each side bringing that aspect into it, that it is not really within the scope, the material allegation of the petition, which is quite broad. I have heard one on each side on that and I would think that now we should keep our remarks more closely to the allegation of the petition. MR.

F. ROWE: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to speak in support of the petition presented by my collegue on behalf of the Concerned Parents Association . and in doing so, Sir, I would like to congratulate the Chairman, Harry Megann I believe, of the Concerned Parents Association for the tremendous job that he has done. I noted that the member for St. John's South (Mr. Wells) expressed some disappointment in the turn-out of the concerned parents at that particular meeting.

And, Sir, I would submit that a turn-out in excess of 800 concerned parents is a very highly successful meeting, a very highly successful meeting indeed. It shows the concern of the parents in the St. John's area, particularly on such a fine evening. Now, Sir, there was something that the member mentioned while he was speaking, presumably in support of the petition , he said that one lady passed him while he was on the phone and was ,. ,j

May 4, 1978 Tape No, 1800 NM- 2 MR. F. ROWE: leaving because she said it is too one sided. Well, Sir, to me that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt whatsoever the concern of the people at that particular meeting with respect to the quality of education, and what the cutbacks and the number of teachers in the schools will do to the quality of education. If it were not one siaea, Mr. SpeaKer, I would submit that the meeting would have been a complete and total failure and one would question whether or not the quality of education would suffer as a result of the cutbacks in education.

But as it happens, and the member for St. John's South (Mr. Wells) indicated it, one person left because it was so one sided.

So I would submit, Sir, that this is all the more reason why, unfortunately the Minister of Education is not here today, this is all the more reason why the minister should take off his ministerial coat for a few hours du:ing the run of a day and think of himself as a parent, and think of himself as a former teacher and a former superintendent of a school board, just place himself in these thr~e positions for an hour or so and really think i~ terms of the quality of education, what the cutbacks in the number of teaches will do to the quality of education in this Province, Now, Sir, I would like to address myself to just one other point, and that is the make up of the Task Force.

I will not address myself to putting the cart before the horse, that has been mentioned several times, but I know the two gentlemen very well, Sir, Dr. Franks Riggs,I believe, I think it is Frank. AN liON. MEMBER: Riggs, MR. F. ROWE: Riggs. Oh yes, And Dr. Bob Crocker. We went to university together and we tau~ht at the university together and we happened to be in the same Department of the Faculty of Education together. AN HON. MEMBER:

Ilay 4, 1978 Tape No. 1800 NM- 3 MR. F. ROWE: I was in the Science Division, the Curriculum and Instruction Division, Sir, we have been arguing, certain members . 1 I • l f

May 4, 1978 Tape 1801 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: been putting the point this way,that the constitution of this particular Task Force is too narrow because we just have two professors from the University. It is even worse than that, Sir, We have two professors, one who is still in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction of the Faculty of Education, and one . who has spent most of his time in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction and who has since gone to the research area of the Faulty of Education or of the University.

So it is a very, very narrow, extremely narrow, It is even narrow within the University itself. So, Sir, I would ask the minister, and unfortunately he is not here, to put himself in the position of a parent, which he is, a teacher,which he was, a superintendent of education,which he was, and look at the constitution of this Committee, rethink it, reconstitute it, and put a freeze on these cutbacks until such time as the Committee has submitted its report and recommendations. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The-hen. member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to make a couple of points with respect to this particular debate, and I am glad that the matter has come up today so that all members who want to talk about it can speak for three or four minutes to emphasize a few points. Most people seem to be of the opinion that the only thing that is having a serious effect on education in Newfoundland with respect to the government cutbacks have been the oro;ected teacher layoff, but there are other matters that are having a serious effect, Mr. Speaker, particularly in rural Newfoundland.

And I think it is fair to say and this has been documented,that the cutbacks that we have seen in education this year will have a more serious effect and impact on rural Newfoundland than any other part of this Province. I can refer you, Mr. Speaker, to a brief that was presented to the Provincial Government by the Central Newfoundland School Board, the nine school boards throughout Central Newfoundland,regarding funds available to school boards, This brief was presented on April 19, 1978, and it

May 4, 1978 Tape 1801 PK - 2 Mr. F. White: states quite specifically, Mr. Speaker, and I quote, "The statistics will show that the rural area is not getting equal treatment from government, particularly with respect to the distribution of funds from the Department of Education and specifically with respect to the transportation grant.

The statistics will also indicate that the areas which are penalized most with respect to government funds are also the areas that have the weakest tax base from which to collect local funds." This point has been mide before in the House, but I want to make it again because I have been presented with a lot of material from the Notre Dame Integrated School Board, the school board in Newfoundland that will be most seriously affected by the government cutbacks.

The additional 5 per cent,for example, of bus transportation that must be found by the boards will mean to the Notre Dame Integrated School Board an additional $12.70 per pupil per pupil, Mr. Speaker- at 10 per cent. ~fuen it ~as at 5 per cent it was $6.35 but it now will mean $12.70 per pupil to find the additional cost for the Notre Dame Integrated School Board, and that is the same for the - it is the highest for the Notre Dame Integrated School Board. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. F. WHITE: Yes.

And it comes on down to the Pentecostal School Board in the area, the Green Bay Integrated, Bonavista-Trinity- Conception, the Gander-Bonavista -Terra Nova Integrated, and those are the boards, those nine or ten boards that will be most seriously affected by this particular issue. Now, Mr. Speaker, on the Task Force.

I think the government, you know, are sort of digging in on this - and I do not want to debate the matter- but it seems that everyone, the parents, the teachers, the school boards, and everyone in the Province except the government feel that the Task Force is too narrow in scope and should ~ be changed. On April 19, the school boards, the Central Newfoundland t School Boards presented this brief to government and they recommended that I

May 4 , 1978 Tap e 1 801 PK- 3 Mr. F. 'llhi te: any Task Force which the government may appoint in education have adequate representation frQm informed people in rural areas. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would submit that the rural areas of this P~ovince that are going to be affected most should have bad a representative on this Task Force.

And the Central Newfoundland School Boards go on to say, "That recommendation number six, which was presented to government before the Task Force was appointed,was completely ignored." And I would submit to the government and to ministers opposite that they g.ive serious consideration to changing this Task Force, Mr. Speaker.

I do not think it would be a matter of taking backwater from government but after they appointed this Task Force,which I am sure -was done in all sincerity,that there has been an uproar from parents, fr0111 t.eachers, from school boards, from everybody, I say, except the government that this Task Force should be changed, there should be representative fr0111 parents on the Task Force ., and above all, ·I I I . t I t

May 4, 1978 Tape 1WJ2 ~!P. . f. HRITE : ~r. Speaker, I think there should be representatives,and informed representatives of the school boards, say, froo rural ·Ne•-rfoundland. I am just concerned that l·te get bogged down in the one issue of teacher layoffs and we do not turn our attention to larger issues,and that is why should t~e people in the Lewisporte area and the Twillingate area suffer just ~ecause they have to travel longer distances to get to school? And that is . - ; exactly "'lhat "e are facing now. Hear, hear~ '~.

SPEAKE;:t: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman for Carbonear, or vice versa. MR. S. c!E.\RY: Go ahead. lT. SPEAKER: The hon. me~ber for Carbonear. ~~~ R. ~'CORES : }!r. Spea!:er, I would like to rise in support of this petition so ably presented by my colleague for Port au Port ~r. Hodder). First when this decision was made by the government,the decision to cut · back on teaching staff in this Province ti believe lil~e a lot of people I was a ~it skeptical., I was not sure if the government was doing the right thing or not.

Jed I said perhaps I should list en to the educators in this Province~ the teachers, the supervising principals etc., the school boards and see just where I stood on this. Now, ~rr. Speaker, I believe it has become evident to just about everybody in this ~rovince,including the hon. ~ember for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan),who perhaps is the finest political opportunist in this Province today. SO~~ ;:IOll. : T~EP. S : Hear, hear; YR. S!'SAKER: Order, please! Order, please! ~- R. 'IDORES: And ~orhen - ~!R . SPEAKER: Order, please! I think I should ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw that remark.

Hay 4, 1978 Tape 1802 T)\-1- 2 ~. L~IDRIGAN: On a poi<t of order, Mr. Speaker, I do not want the han. ge'1tleman to withdraw that remark. SOI-1E HON. MEHB-ERS : Oh, oh! }!R. SPEAKER: Well I am afraid I cannot - :-m .J. LU:>!TllUGtiN: It sounds like I have a brig3t future. :rn.. SPrAKER: Order, please! I am afraid I cannot be influenced by the han. gentleman's '•is:!. T:1e hon. !!tember for Carbonear. 'T .. ? • !~00?-.F.S: I withdra~•, "r. Speal~er • Thank you very much.

Hm.;ever, let me continue by saying that when the han. !!tember for Grand Falls spoke on a similar petition just a fe~• ••eeks ago, I stated at that time that the very admirable, very eloquent presentation that he made gave all the reasons ~•hy the teacher cutbacks in this Province should not go a.'".ead," that his government should not introduce that policy which would set a precedent in this Province that in my l that this government remains in office. And therein lies the problem, I opinion is going to continue for the next five years,assuming of course Mr.

Speaker, It ,is not what they are doing this year,it is 'ihat they f. intend to do and it is ~-rhat these teacher cutbacks this year give an indication of-a very dismal a very eloomy future that is definitely and directly affecting teacher moral e- in this Province right now.

There are many •Tery good, very concerned very genuine, very interestec'f teac.~ers 1.:ho are not sure 1-rhere they stand, ;;ho are not sure of their securit y in the profession~"'ho are worrie d about their jobs~their homes,their families and this type of negative morale • f i i is filtering down through the system - som: -s:oN. 'CEl'EEr.s: l~e ar, hear! >-[!t.

P. •~ORES: and it has a direct effect a very I i . f I t direct effect upon the quality of e~ucation,because as the member for Grand Falls so eloquently stated students in this Province have to be given an alternative and that alternative to leaving school,hecause f

"aY 4, 1°73 Tape 1802 f)(-1 - 3 MR. !!. ~RES: our drop - out rate in Net~founc!land is the hivhes t in Canada• t~~ alternative to dropping out is a diversi- fied coursP. or instTUctional progTam that vill enable the students to see school as being attractive. lf teachers have lot~ morale and are not i::tterested in the quality of their teadlin&,that •.rill c!efinit ely affect the student and you •·•ill see a very real increase !.n the drop-ou t rate in this Province. !:ou ! congratulate the organizers of the ceeting in St .

John ' s last night, 325 parents, teachers etc . who came out to this ~eting and I am glad J congratulate t he members on both sides of ~e P.ouse who attended,who I l ( ' t I t J

May 4, 1978 Tape 1803 EC - 1 MR. R. MOORES: took the time and the interest. A couple of weeks ago I attended a meeting in Carbonear - presumably, it was similar to the one in St. John's last night - where almost 600 people attended. There were invitations given, I understand, to all the MHAs in the proximity of my district and there was a specific invitation sent to the Minister of Education. And like a sculpin when the water is unsettled shoots under a piece of kelp or under the wharf or under a rock, so be it, the Minister of Education analogously was the sculpin in this case and he did not show his face.

And I do not think he intends to show his face as long as the water remains as unsettled as it is in this Province today. Mr. Speaker, 600 people came to the meeting~ 600 people were disappointed, and I suspect that disappointment will be reflected in the polls in the next election. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. Before recognizing the hen. gentleman, I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of all bon. members, twenty-five students accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Langdon, Mr. Andrews, from Point Leamington Central High School.

I know hen. members join me in welcoming these students. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the students from Point Leamington could not have picked a better day, Sir, to come to the House of Assembly and to listen to the debate that has gone on for the last hour and twenty minutes. It has been a very valuable and worthwhile discussion, Sir. I do not think you could call it a debate because members I ! r

May 4, 1978 Tape 1803 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: are rising in support of a petition that has been presented by my hon. friend, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) on behalf of a group of citizens who attended a meeting last night, Concerned Citizens, who are worried about the deterioration in the quality of education as a result of a cutback in the number of teachers in the classrooms in this Province. Much has been said this afternoon, Sir, and much has been said on previous afternoons on this particular matter and there will probably be a lot said in the future. But, Mr. Speaker, we must not muddy up the water.

I do not think it ~s fair to say, Sir, that only around 800 people attended a meeting, and that is not a very large size meeting, or to say that the teachers are orchestrating this movement, or to say that all they are interested in is specialist teachers. Anybody who would take that position, Sir, is just completely insensitive to the concern of the parents in this Province at this particular time. I am not sure right now if I am speaking as an MBA or as a parent. I have four young children in school myself and I am concerned, Mr.

Speaker, about the future of the education of my children, as I am sure every parent in this Province must be concerned at this particular time. Now somebody indicated earlier that maybe the layoff of the teachers may be the thing to trigger a fullfledged fact fjnding investigation into our whole educational system in this Province. We have to examine the curriculum, Sir. We have to not just merely set up a Task Force to look at the size of the classrooms f f.

May 4, 1978 Tape 1803 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: and the size of the classes in these classrooms, we have to examine the curriculum, we have to take a look at our postsecondary education system. Are we getting the best value for our educational dollar? Are we forcing the students at Memorial University to put themselves in debt? When th~ graduate from the university they owe $8,000, $9,000, $10,000 and sometimes $12,000 and they go out in the world with a debt hanging over their heads. Would this, Mr.

Speaker, not have a tendency to discourage our young people from attendin~ university, to turn it into a university for the elite? What about the vocational schools? What about the relationship between the high schools, our elementary schools and the vocational system in this Province2 There are all kinds of things that have to be looked into, Sir, apart from just the size of the classrooms and the size of the classes in tnese classrooms. And what about Grade XII, Mr. Speaker, that I have spoken about sb often in t~is Province? Should we not put Grade XII into our high schools in this Province?

AN HON. ~1ENBER: Hear, hear~ l!R. NEARY: Now somebody also mentioned earlier, I believe it was my friend from Carbonear, about the curriculum, about the programmes that are going on in the schools. I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that there is any doubt about it that a lot of students, probably the majority of the students who attend

May 4,1978 Tape No. 1804 AH-1 HR. NEARY: school arc completely bored with school, in a lot of cases they hate school, in some cases they hate their teachers, and I wuuld submit to my lion. friend from Grand Falls (Ur.

Lundrigan) that that may be one of the causes of so many dropouts, There is no encouragement for these young people to carry on.And I believe now, Sir, that it is time for the government to face up to the situation and not just drag in red herrings about the number of people who attend meetings 'l ~ I; and all the other things that have been raised to throw obstructions and roadblocks in the way of a full-fledged investigation, a full- fledged fact finding done by an independent group, done by a group that would have representatives of the taxpayers, of parents, of professional people, university people and just not narrow it down to a Task Force of two professors over at Memorial University.

It is probably too late for the government to withdraw the setting up of this two can Task Force, but if they set up, Sir, a completely independent full-fledged independent enquiry into the educational system of this Province then as I said the other day this two man Task · Force from Memorial University can report to this independent fact finding committee. SOHE HON. Hlli'1BERS: liear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Bellevue. 118.. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, being a former schoolmaster I want to rise and speak in support of this petition so ably presented by ~y friend and colleague for Port au Port (Mr.Hodder).

I will keep my remarks short, Mr. Speaker, even though I have five minutes. Hr. Speaker, I simply say this, tllat the 1:emarks made by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) and the remarks ~de by other hon. gentlemen, the member for Terra Nova (Mr.Lush), Carbonear (Mr.Hoores)- LaPoile (}~. ~eary) and all the others, even the member for Grand Falls (Mr.Luadrigan) was supporting the petition, I think,and talking about the fact that we need more teachers rather than less because

May 4,1978 Tape No. 1804 AH-2 MB.. CALLAN: students are dropping out of school so therefore one of the reasons for that is because of the high teacher-pupil ratio, we need fewer students per teacher and therefore this will give more individual attention and therefore will result in more people completing high scilool, Grade Xi education. Mr. Speaker, to all the people who have spoken in support of this petition I simply say "Ditto~' I go along with the same idea and my suggestion, Mr.

Speaker, is this, I think that at the soonest possible time, I think to put an end to all this perhaps and to get the whole thing out in the air and get a full-fledged debate on it, I am suggesting that Resolution No. l7 on the Order Paper under the name of the member for Port au Port (Mr.Hodder) be called, the resolution that says:

WHEREAS there is a need for a clear statement as to what are acceptable levels of elementary and secondary education in this Province; A.~

WHEREAS many students in this Province now face loss of programms because of teacher layoffs: AND

WHEREAS in a time of restraint in government spending it is all the more critical to know what our priorities are and what our directions must be; .BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that a select collliilittee of the House be appointed to recommend a eefinite policy as to the overall goals for education in this Province and to determine what constitutes acceptable levels of schooling in Newfoundland and Labrador. I think this is what we need in this House of Assembly, Hr. Speaker, and I support the prayer of the petition. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! :·!R. SPEAKER: Ron. member for St. George's. !1RS HciSAAC: }rr.

Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented and I have to in speaking to the petition, I did not attend the meeting last night, in speaking to the petition I have

}lay 4 ,1978 Tape No. 1804 Al:l-3 MRS Me ISAAC: to refer again to my own district . I c.en:a:!.nly feel t hat at this time there is no way that this thing can be applied across the boa:rd or across the !'rovince 1 Inst ead. of decreasing the number of teacilers in tile Province I feel that t hey certainly should be increased. We have a situation in the distri ct of St. George 1 s t:bat the minister is well aware of si11ce he '.olas the superintendent of one of the scbool boards in that very area ': '-

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1805 NM- 1 MRS. MCISAAC: and it is quite familiar with what goes on in the schools. We have, and I will give specific examples, in Gallants,for example, as I have stated once already in the House this year, we have from kindergarten to grade eight and we have two teachers in that school to take care of from kindergarten to grade eight. Now I do not care if there are ten pupils or if there are 100 pupils, we still have nine classes to take take care of and every subject in those nine classes.

We have another school where we have kindergarten and grade one and we have one teacher to take care of it. We have other areas where we have two or three grades in the one classroom with one teacher,and if there is a twenty-six to one ratio this is certainly going to affect the quality of education in our schools in that area. It is affected right now in fact.

There are teachers enough in this Province, I do not see the necessity to cut back and every year we have teachers coming out of university, last year we had them coming out, this year we Will have more coming out and again next year, who do not have schools, who have to join the ranks of the unemployed and while those teachers are in the ranks of the unemployed the students in the rural areas are suffering.

We have a complete waste of at least one year, If our students want to go to university, the course that they need are not offered, they have to go to university to get the basic courses and as I said the first year of university is completely wasted. I would like to see some of the teachers that are considered excess sent out to some of the rural areas so that there is equality in education across this Province.

And I feel that the rural areas of this Province are - ~ I being discriminated against, that our students are not offered the same courses that the students in the larger areas are offered and if there is a place to start in teacher layoffs, if you are going to lay them off from one school then I will accept

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1805 NM - 2 MR.. MCISAAC : all the teachers that are laid off in order to upgrade the quality of education in my district because it is something fierce what is going on in that area. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: I had hoped the Premier was going to be here, Mr. Speaker. MR.

HICKMAN: The hon. the Premier had to go to a meeting but he is within hearing distance of this and indicated that as soon as Oral Question period started he would come back, so I presume that if he can hear right now that he is on his way. MR. NEARY: Stop the clock. MR. W. ROWE: I will save my question, Si~, for another day and I will ask the hon. House Leader a few other questions that may be germane.

Sir, would the hon. the Government House Leader indicate to the House whether the government intends to bring in a bill, legislation, this session of the House - not next session, or t.en years from now- this session of the House a bill placing limits on contributions to political parties and candidates, Sir, and requiring complete disclosure of party finances, and placing limits on the amounts that can be spent by parties and candidates in elections?

In other words, Sir, a complete reform, I have mentioned one or two aspects of such a reform, a complete reform of party financing involving disclosures, election financing, involving limits, and so on, Sir, Does the government intend to brin~ in a bill · this session of the House governing that important matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice.

:lay 4 , 1 978 Tape No. 1805 NH - 3 MR. HlJRPHY : I requested that in 1966. MR. RICK!·IAN : I appreciate the bon. the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. ~lurphy), B.e says that he asked for the same thing in 1966. But in any event, ~rr. Speaker, to answer the question from the hon. Leader of the Opposition, this governme .nt, as been stated publicly, --1

May 4, 1978 Tape 1806 PK- 1 Mr. Hickman: is committed to bringing before this Legislature a bill which will not only limit contributions to political parties b~ which will also provide for disclosure. The position with respect to that bill at this time isthat we have had very extensive work going on in the preparing, just not that part, but this Province needs is a totally new Elections Act.

And I look forward to being given the opportunity to bring before this House,depending on the length of this session, but if it is at all a reasonable length, a bill that will do not just that, but will bring the Election Act within the Twentieth Century, which it has not been, because I am sure all hon. members will agree -having read the many decisions of our courts on recounts following almost every general election, and sometimes by-elections, that we need a modernization of our Act. And, Mr.

Speaker, whilst I cannot give a firm commitment that it will be brought in this Spring session of the House, let me assure this House that the work is ongoing, it will be in before the next election, and I would hope that it will be brought before this session. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: But there is a great deal of work going on right now by the appropriate people in the appropriate office. And it will be the best Election Act,bar none, maybe because it is the newest, in any Canadian province. MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary, ~x. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, by way of

preamble to my supplementary, I would just remind the hon. minister, he seems to have forgotten, that this promise was made in two Throne Speeches,last year and the year before last , and in the Throne Speech, Sir, which preceded the ongoing business in this session of the House the matter we dropped altogether, for some strange reason. No mention made of it at all. Now, Sir, I ask the han. House Leader to indicate to the House why, especially in the light of recent scandals and so on, most of which revolve about the non-disclosure of party funds and too much money going around politically, the strong arm being put on people .. .. ~ • ' t t

May 4, 1978 Tape 1806 PK - 2 Mr. W.

Rowe: to contribute to political parties and so on, I ask him, Sir- and this does not go on just before elections necessarily or only just before elections but perhaps throughout the whole year, Sir, or years leading up to an election- why does he not bring into the House this session,as was promised back in 1972, if I remember correctly, firstly, but certainly promised,a commitment made to the public of this Province in two Throne Speeches, last year and the year before, why does he not bring in this session of the House legislation which can deal with this very important matter?

The Election Act is as important as well, but we can get on to that. That can happen as time goes on. The whole question, Sir, of the skulduggery, the possiblility of illegality and impropriety involving party finances demands,! would submit,that. the government bring in such a bill during this session of the House, certainly as quickly as possible, and I ask the bon. minister why he does not, Sir, as soon as possible?

We do not want any more scandals like we I i his administration, bring in a bill now in the next two or three weeks, if all this workhas been done, and have it debated here and passed, have had in the past. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.HICKMAN: You !mow, I am not going to respond to allegations of scandals because I always like to aw~it investigations to see the outcome thereof. It is always more prudent to do it. In any event, Mr. Speaker, may I assure this House that the back of the studies into the new Election Act has been broken, completed.

The first draft of the bill has been completed. It is a voluminous thing of a bill, not for presentation to the Rouse now -but for study by the Cabinet. It is about that thick, I have forgotten about how many hundred pages. And I repeat what I say, that it is the intention, the determined intention of this administration to bring before this session of the Rouse the best Election Act. MR. W. ROWE: This session?

May 4, 1978 Tape 1806 PK - 3 ~!R. HICKMAN: This session with the most rigid controls that you will find in any Canadian province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Bear , hear! MR . HICKMAN: · The most rece .nt one,as hon. gentlemen know.was the Ontario Act. Before that we were told by this House that the Federal Act,which is now two year s old , was the best. Ontario came up last year with a beuer Act. I think I can say with absolute confidence, Mr. Speaker, ours will be better still. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RICKMAN: And make no doubt about it, this work has been going on since about last September . I think the work I> II ll

Hay 4, 1978 Tape 1807 EC - 1 }1R. HICKMAN: on the first drafting started last September. I was happy that it was not included in the Speech from the Throne because I wanted to be absolutely certain that rather than make a commitment that could not be met that we would be in a position to bring it before this Legislature. In the previous Speeches from - I . '• the Throne we talked about, Mr. Speaker, controls and publication on election financing.

This bill is going to go far, much further than that, and I can assure this House that when this bill is presented before this Legislature during this session of the House of Assembly it will be the greatest reform that we have seen since 1949 - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: - and I am sure that every hon. gentleman will support it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. HR. SIHHONS: Hr.

Speaker, further to the questions from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and also addressed to the Minister of Justice, the Government House Leader 1 first of all, his two answers to questions indicate that we have had some effect on him, He has changed his mind since he began speaking today, because first he was not going to bring it in this session and now he is going to bring it in this session. It does demonstrate we have some effect on the minister at times. Mr. Speaker, my question for the minister, in view of the earth-shaking nature of the proposed legislation, the fact that it will be the best

May 4, 1978 Tape 1807 EC - 2 MR. SDiMONS : legislation of its kind in Canada if we accept what the minister has said, the fact that it is going to be quite a thick volume, and I should also say the fact that it is going to affect not only the people in the Cabinet and on the government side, but politicians on this side of the House and others generally, at large, would the minister agree to bring in a White Paper first~ a White Paper on the proposed legislation as soon as possible to get the reaction of members of the House and others - HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR .

SIMMONS: - before he comes up with the final draft of the legislation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice . MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have some sympathy with the philosophy of White Papers and I now congratulate the han. the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) that he has persuaded - because I am sure he would not speak unless he were speaking on behalf of all of his caucus - AN RON. ~EMBER: Hear, hear! }!R.

HICKMAiT: -on the wisdom of White Papers, and I remind him that not too long ago I was subjected to the severest criticism by his alleged leader, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition, that a White Paper was nothing but a delaying tactic and heaped scorn upon this government for having the temerity to suggest that in the all-important legislative field of matrimonial property law that we would first have a White Paper so that the interested people of Newfoundland could have a look at it in its final form.

Now let me get back to the question at hand, having congratulated the hon. gentleman, that this I I l ' '• ' . i'i t ~' ~

May 4, 1978 Tape 1807 EC - 3 !1R. HICKMAN: legisl .ation is too important to be delayed to the next session of the House for . a White Paper. There have been some debates during Address in Reply debates in this House during the past several sittings on the need for election reform or reform of the Election Act. We now have the benefit of having at our disposal not only the legislation, but the experience of other jurisdictions in Canada who have operated under it.

In particular, the experience of the Ontario Legislature during their most recent general election is very relevant indeed with respect to the administrative problems in their jurisdiction. My view is, Mr. Speaker, and I know it is the view of the government, that not only wi~l we control electian·spending and contributions to political parties. There is a case to be made, and I have heard differing views on both sides of this han. House,with respect to the use of public funds as contributions toward elections.

Some people will argue why call upon the taxpayer aud use tax dollars , ·o'1hich are not that plentiful,to finance elections as long as you can find somebody who is so dedicated to the principles of democracy that they would contribute 'so long as you make it all public. ~!R. WHITE: The taxpayer has to pay an y wa~. MR. HICKMAN: But apart altogether from contributions and the reforming of the machinery,I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, a position where we have a permanent voters list, where we have people - AN HOU. l1EHBER: Answer the question.

Hay 4, 19 7 8 Tape 1807 IB-4 ~lR. HICKHAN: What I am trying to do is to give the han. gentleman some food for thought. And I gather, Mr. Speaker, from the question of the hen. ·t i '

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1808 JM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir that he wanted some indication as to the· thinking of the government at this time so that he can turn his attention to some research, he and the people of Newfoundland, in other jurisdictions so that they can be ready for a debate that we look forward to with enthusiasm and with a great deal of pride when we bring this monumental reform before this Legislature. MR. SillMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, sometimes in this House you have to say the question a second time and,depending on who you are saying it to,say it fairly slowly. This is one of those occasions that I shall say it again and say it very slowly. Before saying it, Mr. Speaker, let me say that we are not particularily impressed with the minister's cheap debating points about white papers and green papers and bright yellow papers and all the rest of it. What we have asked the minister, Mr.

Speaker, is this; in view of the fact that he refuses to expedite this matter anyway and bring it in this spring as asked by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, and in view of the fact that we are going to have a fair amount of time to cogitate on the matter,the least he can do for his awn protection and the protection of his colleagues in Cabinet is get the views of all members of the House. We ~~ve time on our side. He sees no haste in the matter.

Therefore with time on his side are he and his colleagues agreeable to putting the present proposals for this legislation in the form of a white paper and making it available thereby to members of the House so we can give him the benefit of our views on the subject so that when the time comes to take ?OSitions on this, as he has said himself, very important piece of legislation which has a lot of ramifications not only for members of this House but potential members and for the public and the taxpayers at large.

So before we have to take a final position in terms of a vote in this House on the subject that i I l J l

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1808 JM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: we can have some kind of a consensus or an approach to a consensus. I think this can be achieved through a white paper and in view of that does he see the wisdom of a white paper and,two, will he agree therefore to undertake to introduce such a white paper? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. WHITE: - Yes or no. PREMIER MOORES: It is a yes or no question. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir gets up and it takes him four minutes and twenty-three seconds to ask a question and I am supposed to answer yes or no.

The answer to the last part of that rambling question is no, I do not see the wisdom of tabling a white paper. MR. SIMMONS-: Okay. MR. HICKMAN: Now the answer to the second last part, I would consider answering that in the affirmative as an absolute discourtesy to this House and in casting an undue reflection on hon. members if they first have to have the benefit of a white paper on this particular piece of reform so that they could meaningfully debate the bill.

Thirdly, I go back to answer the question that was put much morP directly and much more informedly and succinctly by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. We will be introducing this legislation during this session of the legislature. We have been working on it since September and it will be a very proud day for this administration when we bring it in, I am sure of this, I know enough about what is going to be in the bill now that I would challange any han. gentleman to vote against it. It is will be a great Tory reform. SOME RON. ~ mMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St.

George's followed by the hon. member for Bay of Islands. MRS • MCISAAC : Hr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. I would like to know if the minister can tell me when the joint announcement will be made on the RRAP programme.

~ ay 4 , 1978 Tape No. 1808 .m - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. ministl;!r. MR. DINN: & • Speaker, I understand the hon. member h·om St. ~tge's fs referrtng to the _Rural RRAP programme, specifically iii St. Georgl;!1s District,and basica.Uy I ~uld have thought that this joint annou;~.cement would have been made before now. We have bad ongoing negotiations with the Federal Gqverament. We ~e an indication frbm t.he Federal GoVe%'llliiE!;nt, their agency; CMHC, that today the announcement could be made. Whilst I cannot say that it iS definitely goinR: forward because there - is an agteement between the Province and the Federal Government that it has to be . ·~

!iay 4, 1978 Tape 1809 IB-1 HR. DINN: a joint announcement. Certainly if it is not made today, within the next few days. UR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MRS. }iACISAAC: No~not a supplementary. I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer and I would like to debate it. J-IR. SPEAKER: I have indicated I recognize the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) followed by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). MR. WOODROW: I have a question for the hon. member which I discussed with him earlier and one I think that is helpful to all Newfoundlanders.

At least I had the courtesy of telling him I was going to ask him the question. The question is, Mr. Speaker, due to the fact that it takes about six weeks to get a birth certificate. One of the important re~sons for this is because Ottawa will not accept church records from Newfoundland in the same ~anner as they accept church records from Quebec. If these records were accepted people could go to their respective clergymen and get the certificate much quicker than six weeks. The question is, Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. minister take steps to find out why Newfoundland church records are not accepted by Ottawa and elaborate on the whole issue? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker,! better deal with two parts of the question and deal with the first part first. It does take some time to obtain a birth certificate now. It always has in some cases, but particularly this past couple of months with the tremendous number of applications we are receiving from people across the country who are required to obtain a new social security card.

They are required by the federal government to attach to their application a birth certificate. The backload down in the registry has been of a tremendous nature. They

Hay 4, 1978 Tape 1809 IB-2 I-IR. H. COLLINS: are already plugged. We have taken on six additional people and we are also workin£ some of the regular staff overtime to try and catch up with the number of applications. We would hope to have accomplished that in about a month or five weeks. With regard to the han. member's question about the acceptance or otherwise of birth certificates based on parish records, we are told that the federal government will indeed accept birth certificates from the parish records in the Province of Quebec. I do not know if that applies in any other province.

We have gone to the federal authorities requesting that they give us the same treatment but to my knowledge at this particular time we have not had a response. ~~R. SPEAKER: I had indicated the hon. member for Eagle River would be recognized next. JlR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, when events occur which cast suspicion either on the administration or individual members of the administration and an investigation is called into place~we usually ask that these investigations be carried out swiftly and quickly.

Could the minister indicate whether I am correct in my understanding that the investigation into the fire in the Minister of Industrial Development's (Dr. Farrell) apartment last Thursday was only investigated to my understandin'g yesterday for the first time by the police, six days after it occurred? And if this is incorrect,then when did the police investigation start. AN SON. MEMBER: Eight days. MR. STRACHAN: Eight days after the fire. If it is incorrect, when did the police investigation start and if it did not start yesterday then what are the reasons for the delay in the investigation~

May 4, 1978 Tape 1809 IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that the investigation into that fire as well as into any other fires that fall within that category started within a matter of minutes after the fire commenced. I thank the han. gentleman for giving me - AN RON. MEMBER: You mean the Fire Commissioner? MR. HICKl1AN: No, the police.

There is a procedure I dug out that was implemented in 1976 as it relates to the Newfoundland Constabulary in their relation to . : fires which occur within the city, that whenever a fire 1'. is commenced or started or reported that if it is in I' that kind of establishment such as Elizabeth Towers,or I an area where there are commercial establishments, in vacant premises or where there is any possiblity of physical injury of loss of life or of p~actically every I~ fire,that immediately the CID is informed and do respond. And indeed there is a Standing Order posted in front of the central alarm box in the St.

John's Fire Department which says that all personnel who are doing washroom r·

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1810 RT-1 MR. T .A. lliCI.OlAN: duty when fire alarms are received either by box or telephone are instructed to not:Hy the police immediately giving them the location of the call as well as any other information . thev mav concerninE the fire. }~ understanding is, and I know I am right on this, that wiL~in a matter of minutes the investigative branch of the Newfoundland Constabulary were at that fire. They lay down the instructions and the procedures to the investigation, and whilst you ask me to swear on a stack of ~ibles as to what procedure they followed, I do not know.

But che reports that I have been receiving indicate they started with the utmost despatch as they have done as well with two or three other regrettable fires that happened around the same time. The Fire Commissioner's responsibility falls into a somewhat different category. As I ~xplained to the Rouse yesterday he is primarily concerned with fire safety and in assisting the police in finding the cause of the fire. May I reassure this House that that investigation, I am sure, was started promptly and very quickly indeed: MR. I. STRACHAN: Supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: Supplementary. MR. I. STRACHAN: ~~.

Speaker, the Minister has indicated that the police investigation commenced immediately, as far as he is concerned, after the fire.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate then since it is eight days after the fire and an investigation commenced then,and it is quite a simple fire as we understand, not a very complicated one, in which large buildings were burned down and it is very difficult to trace the source, whether he has had a report - from the police, whether his police investigation has now been completed and submitted to him, and whether the findings will be either turned over to the R.C.M.P., to his Department. or whatever, or to the House, or will we know? Will there be any public statement on that matter? • .

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1810 RT-2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Hinister of Justice. MR. T.A.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am quite certain that the investigation has not been completed. May I once again repeat,because I do not think the bon. gentleman was in the House at the time, that the procedure that is followed is this, that immediately following any fire in St. John's of any significance,two investigations are started together, one by the Fire Commissioner and/or his office : and in that respect he has the inspection division of the St. John's Fire Department working with him. That report goes in to the C.I.il.

The C.I.D. in the meantime are conducting their investigation, and when they complete their investigation, like any other police investigation it is handed to the Director of Public Prosecutions. If the Director of Public Prosecutions and/or any of his Crown prosecutors feel, and in that case he has to relycto an extent upon the professional advice of the Fire Commissioner: ,that there may still be some unanswered questions, then he has the authority to order a magisterial enquiry into the fire.

There was a time when we used to have one into every fire but that became wmecessary as professionalism in fire detection and investigation improved, and now it is only in cases where they cannot ascertain the cause of the fire or, alternatively, feel that something more can be gathered from it. Hon. gentleman will recall that a few - SO}IE HON. ME}1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. FLIG!IT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans followed by Baie Verte-Shite Bay. ~m. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Morgan).

We are led to believe that there is a restructuring taking place in the Department right now, and I would like the Minister to confirm or deny the rumours we hear that he has been offering positions in the Department of Tourism to PR men,

May 4, .1978 Tape No. 1810 Rl'-3 MR. G •. FLIGiiT: some people in public relations, or to people in the media in particular, that he has actually been cajoling members of those two professions to take positions with the Department of Tourism? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. ~ . J . MORGAN : Mr.

Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is v.es there is now some restructing taking place in the Department of Tourism in the Tourist Service Division whereby after the restructuring has been completed there will be four new br~ches, one known as th~ Co!IIID.Uilica.tions Branch, a Marketing Branch - MR. G. FLIGHT: What about the jobs1 MR. J . MORGAN: - a Development Branch, and a Vis!.tors' Se.rvice Branch.' It will Jlleail the creation of a number of new jobs. All these jobs will be advertised through the Public Service Commission, as all permanent jobs are.

Over and above that, as well, there will be a number of contractual positions. As a result of the recent DREE agreement these positions will

May 4, 1978 Tape 1811 PK - 1 Mr. Mcirgan: be filled on the basis of approval by a federal- provincial committee. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bav. MR. RIDEOUT: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation if he has a moment. Mr. Speaker, the minister in his statement to the press a few days ago indicated that some form of work would begin this year on two roads in my district that are being contaminated by · asbestos dust, Fleurs de Ly!O_ Coachman's Cove, Seal Cove_ Wild Cove.

Now the minister's predecessor has already made a very generous commitment to the people of that area for dollars in this regard. So I would like to ask the minister now how much provincial money has been allocated for work on those two roads this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: As the hon. member is aware, Mr. Speaker, we have applied to the Government of Canada for some assistance on at least the Fleur de Lys

section of that road. I have had an acknowledgement of the letter but I have had neither confirmation nor refusal of the request. I will be trying to contact the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion along that line again during the coming week, and to see if I can speed the process up. The amount of money that will be available from the Government of Canada will of necessity have a bearing on the amount of money that is available from the Province. If we are forced to do it all ourselves then we are going to have another look at it.

So actually I am not in a position at this particular point in time to say how much we will be spending on these roads, nor am I aware of what the generous offer my predecessor made. But I can certianly assure the hon. member that work will be ongoing on these roads during the coming season. I II f

May 4, 1978 Tape 1811 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Motion 7. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 7. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Convey Certain Trusts And Properties In The Province To The Royal Trust Corporation Of Canada," carried. (Bill No. 28). On motion, a bill, On motion, bill No. 28 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. RICKMAN: Motion 4, Bill No. 4. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Empower The St. John's Municipal Council To Raise A Loan For Municipal Purposes By The Issue of Bonds." The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

MR. J. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this bill is an annual item by the City of St. John's to seek legislative authority for approval for a sale of bonds in the amount not exceeding $10 million to be applied towards the financing of municipal projects, improvements, the payments of loans, debts and debentures of the city. That is about it. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a word here. This is a regular thing, it comes up every year, but this year there is a point or two that should be made on it, and should be answered by the minister.

The ministe will recall that with respect to the controversy surrounding the parking garage in St. John's that quite a great deal of debate has been going on at City Council in the last few weeks in St. John's with respect to this. And at a meeting a couple of weeks ago one of the City Fathers said, you know, that this particular controversy surrounding the parking garage was casting reflections on the city's ability to deal with funding of various projects . One councillor wondered whether or not it would have a detrimental effect on the city when it goes to the -., ,. lo

May 4, 1978 Tape 1811 PK - 3 Mr. White: bond markets to raise the funds that it is going to need during the coming year. This particular enquiry that has been asked for by the city has not been . :

l1ay 4,1978 Tape No. 1812 AH-1 HR. WHIT.E: appointed,although the city said they would be glad to pay for it if the government did appoint an enquiry into the parking garage. It has resulted in a councillor being expelled from City Council ~ generally things are not as savoury at City Hall as they should be with respect to the city finances. And I am just wondering if the minister will tell us in the second reading of this particular piece of legislation, a fairly routine piece of legislation, whether or not, Mr.

Speaker, he foresees any trouble in the city raising funds because of the present controversy over the parking garage? And maybe at the same time he could tell us whether or not the government is going to change its mind with respect to an enquiry into the parking garage in St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: If the minister now speaks he closes the debate. The hen. minister. HR.DINN: Nr. Speaker, with respect to the han. member's question as to whether the government is going to set up an enquiry into the parking garage, I guess that is the basis for the - NR. WHITE: And whether or not (inaudible) HR.

DINN: The first question that the han. member raised was the enquiry. Now I have indicated to the city that, number one, the provincial government is not prepared to set up a public enquiry under the Public Enquiries Act, that we are prepared upon request from the city to set up an enquiry under the City of St. John's Act,which has all the powers required to do the job of the enquiry - that I believe, Mr. Speaker, is

Section 320 of the City of St. John's Act; number two, it also states in there that setting up the enquiry is done by the Lieutenant -Governor in Council upon a request from the city and we have agreed to do that if we get that request. We think that if the city is serious about having that enquiry they should proceed to send a letter to me indicating i )~

May 4,1978 Tape No. 1812 AH-2 HR. DINH: that they want the enquiry and that the thing can get on fairly quickly. Several points have been made with respect to the enquiry, ~umber one is that the city did not think that they should investigate themselves,and of course this has no foundation at all in that they would request the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, the Cabinet 1 to appoint three commissioners for the specific purpose of looking into the financial matters of the city especially with respect to the parking garage.

As to whether it will affect the sale of bonds by the city,I guess that will all cote out in the wash, I really cannot say because I do not know all of the implications uor do I have all of the information with respect to the parking garage. Mr. Speaker, I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second time? Carried. A bill, "An Act To Empower The St. John's :1unicipal Council To Raise TI1e Loan For Municipal Purposes By The Issue of Bonds 1 " read a second time, ordered referred to a 6ommittee of the Whole House, on tomorrow. (Bill No. 4) Agreed. ~!R.

HI CKl-.IA.'I : Order No. 5 Bill No. 13. Motion second reading of a bill "An Act Respecting Unfair .>nd Unconscionable Trade Practices," (Bill No. 13) be now read a second time. Hon. minister. MR. HURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I did get some notes 1 if the House will bear with me,and I will just give a full outline of the bill so then we can go into questions afterwards. This bill will give the consumers of Newfoundland similar rights to those now enjoyed by citizens of British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario and Prince Edward Island. At the present time the '·

~lay 4,1978 ·Tape No . 1812 Al:i-3 !·1R. HURPh'Y: NewfO,dl:aAd ¢QD.Sblll'!it'l' ~ l)pt pTOtedl.ed ,f"Qiil, ~epresentacioos which may be deemed to be unfair or unconscionable ­ unconscionable is sort of merciless, it is not actually illegal in a sense ' but in our opinion it is not fair to put a man in a position to do certain things . The Trade Practices Act will cover a number of acts and practices that will be illegal , For example,an representat ion that the goods are of a part1.cular style, !il.Odel or origin .

Now we bave had many times with automobiles where you go in and buy a car and someone says,"Look,this is a 1972 model; ' just f or exa~:~ple . After some time you go and look fo r a part for it and someone says " T'uis is a 1969" or a 1970. Unde.r this act n.ow it g1.ves us •

May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1813 JM- 1 MR. A.J. MU'RPHY: the power to bring these people back under misrepresentation~and so we try to cover everything we can, a representation that the goods are new and unused if they are not or if they are reconditioned.

In other words,if you buy something and you say this is brand new and afterwards you discover that the thing had been in and been reconditioned, it could be a television set or anything like that 1 '_a representation that the goods have a particul~r prior history or usage, In other words,again they describe it as only being used here and there and a lot of people where the cars might be used more than they profess to be. A representation that goods or services are available when the supplier knows or ought to know that they are not or has no intentions - false advertisinr.

In other words, we' were selling something for $1.49 and you go down to get it. "Oh I am sorry. We do not have any left. They are all sold out." If we can prove that they never had them then we ca~ bring tnem to court under this act. The giving of an estimate or evaluation of the price of goods or services that is materially less than the price subsequently demanded or determined, if the supplier has proceeded with the performance of the consumer transaction without the express prior consent of the consumer.

In other words,if he would say that I will sell this for certain dollars and then when you go to pick it up you find that he is charging $40.00 or $50,00 or $60,00 more. Actually these things are sort of small sounding but they affect~! would say 9 seventy-five or eighty per cent of the ordinary Joe ~no goes in to try to spend his dollar. Their trade practices legislation will accomplish the following: prevent or stop unfair and unconscionable acts or practices in the market place and provide for recovery of consumer costs.

In other words,they will have us behind them if they were misrepresented that we would have - I would put all our staff to make sure that guy got his money back and got satisfaction. Minimize the need for the further development of licensing legislation to I f ' ' I f ~ I

7 May 4, 1978 Tape No. 1813 JM - 2 MR. MURPHY: control specific practises in isolated industry, Instead of licensing every little area of trade this act will cover everybody no matter what it is, whether it is a grocery store, a car dealer, so on and so forth. So basically it is a comprehensive act that covers many, many practises in the market place today. Now that is just an outline of the thing, If anybody wants to ask questions on the

section I am sure that the Minister of Justice and myself will answer everything to the best of our ability. But it is another on~oing act that has been passed in British Columbia, Alberta, Ontario, four actuall~--and Prince Edward Island. So we are the fifth one to have it and most of this consumer legislation is based on in many cases British Columbia and Ontario. So we are just updating these consumer acts. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception ~ay South, MR. NOLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It seems while we have not had an opportunity to take a look in detail of those that presently are in force in British Columbia and Ontario, as he says, I suppose there has never been a time in our history when the consumer is in greater need of protection than he is right now in view of increased prices and everything under God's earth. But the fact is does this bill in fact do what we are led to believe in the Unfair and Unconscionable Trade Practices Act?

Is it in fact going to provide for - Incidentally,what the minister did not go into any detail on, or if he did maybe I missed it, apparently we have a new position that is coming in here~namely,a director of trade practices. Is this a brand new position that is going to be created? Has it been advertised and so on, so on? MR. MURPHY: Yes,and he would have permission to operate the act. MR. NOLAN: So there is a new position? MR. MURPHY: Yes. MR. NOLAN: l~at is that position being paid? Would the minister kno~~ how much you are paying him?

Hay 4, 1978 !ape No. 1813 JM- 3 MR. MIJlU>HY: No,but I can find out very shortly though. Int. NOLAN: Has the position been adver~ed for already? MR. MilRPHY: I do not k.uaw if that bas been in the department, ' I will find out for you. ~. NOl.AN: I think it is iDiportant. I beUeve it is a very important position. I am not trying to degrade the position in any ay, shape or fo:r:m. MR. MtllPHY: I can find out for you. MR. NOl.AN: And therefore since it is such a - A stranger is pre$ent in the House, Mr. Speaker. Ma. SPEAKER: Order, please.

I would ask the officers of the House to ensure that strangers do not enter onto the floor of the House. The bon. melllber. AN RON. MEMBER: What is going on here? Who is it? . . ~. WlllTE: Somebody came in and grabbed an envelope off the desk. MR. NOLAN: I thought they were coming to get us, Mr. Speaker. This bill, I I ,, .i ll I' ,I ., li Jj

May 4, 1978 Tape 1814 IB-1 MR. NOLAN: and I look forward to hearing from the minister on the position that is going to be advertised. I would like to know whether it has already been advertised for by the Civil Service Commission and I would like to know the salary that is associated with the Director of Trade Practices -MR. NEARY: And qualifications. MR. NOLAN: Well the qualifications would be in any ad I would think. AN HON. MEMBER: I would like to apply. MR. NOLAN: You want to apply, do you? The hon. member would like to apply for this. MR. MURPHY: Good. MR. ~OLAN: Mr.

Speaker, in the act there is a reference that we are going to have a provision here for the maintenance or repair of g_oods ·or real property owned by a consumer. This is going to be very interesting, to see how that is going to be e