Manitoba Hansard — 5 December 2002 (Sitting 07, 37th Legislature, 4th Session)

37-4-07

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 7 – 1:30 p.m., Thursday, December 5, 2002

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C.

ENNS, Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P.

MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER, Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St.

Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Joy Fort Garry P.C. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

249 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 5, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Censure/Apology Request Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, the authorities tell us that a question of privilege should rarely come up in the Legis- lature and, should the question arise, that the matter should be raised at its earliest oppor- tunity. In raising this matter of privilege today, I do so at the earliest opportunity accorded to me, for in order to ensure that the veracity of the state- ments made by the First Minister (Mr.

Doer) in answers to questions provided during Question Period, I was only able to undertake this review upon receiving Hansard. It is a fundamental basic rule of this place that information which is placed on the record of the House and before the people of Manitoba must be accurate, factual and be presented in such a manner in order to facilitate the work of this House. The answers provided by the Pre- mier in questions placed before this House earlier this week show a complete contempt for this House and a deliberate misleading of the people of Manitoba as to the truth of his statements. Mr.

Speaker, this is not a dispute over the facts. This is a deliberate attempt on the part of the First Minister to be loose with the facts in order to mislead political points, to provide inaccurate information to this Assembly and to the people of Manitoba. What is even more troublesome with the attitude of the First Minister is that he is willing to play loose with the facts and not provide a source of his information, even though he knows the information which I will present to this House is based upon budgets tabled in this House.

He comes to this House barren of factual information, barren of the integrity to ensure proper information is placed before the people of Manitoba and this House and barren of any documentation which will back up his statement. This type of action is contemptuous of this House and it is not worthy of a premier. All members in this House are duty bound to ascertain the accuracy of their information be- fore they place it on the record. To allow the First Minister (Mr. Doe

r) to continue to place false information on the floor of this House offends the integrity of this place and if allowed to continue results in a contemptuous action being allowed to go unchecked and morally wounds the integrity of the Legislature of Manitoba. * (13:35) Mr.

Speaker, I would like to bring forward a quote from Hansard of December 2, where the Premier of Manitoba indicated, and I quote: "When we came into office the middle-income individuals of Manitoba were the highest west of Québec and east of Qu ébec under the Tory years." I would like to table a document that indicates the provincial income tax comparisons for a family of four at $40,000 and $60,000 levels from 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1998. These documents indicate that middle-income Mani- tobans at that $40,000 level were very compet- itive with our other provinces in Canada at that time.

I would also like to table in this House another document showing the 1999 provincial income tax comparisons from the year in which this Government took power in the province of Manitoba. This document indicates that for a family of four with $40,000 of income,

250 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 Saskatchewan taxpayers paid $485 more than Manitoba, New Brunswick taxpayers paid $351 more, Nova Scotia paid $218, Prince Edward Island $271 and Newfoundland $833 more than their counterparts in these provinces than Man- itobans did. For $60,000, it is $253 higher in Saskatchewan, more in Québec and $674 higher in the province of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, on November 28, the Premier (Mr.

Doer) in this House also stated, and I quote: "We had a situation where the income taxes in Manitoba were the highest east and west of Québec before we came into office." I would state the evidence I have placed before this House today contradicts that statement by the Premier, both statements by the Premier. I would also like to table at this time documents showing the tax competitiveness of Manitobans under the years of the Doer government in the province of Manitoba today. This has happened at a time when this Gov- ernment has had a billion worth of additional revenue in the province of Manitoba.

I would remind all of us of the words of Joseph Maingot on page 225 of his second edition, where he states: Contempt is more aptly described as an offence against the authority or dignity of the House. As well, I would also direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to Marleau and Montpetit, on page 52, where it states: Any conduct which offends the authority or dignity of this House, even though no breach of any specific privilege may have been committed, is referred to as a con- tempt of the House. Contempt may be

an act or an omission. It does not have to actually obstruct or impede the House or a member. It merely has to have the tendency to produce such results. * (13:40) Mr. Speaker, a new contempt has been found in this House which is an affront to the dignity of the House, playing loose with figures, expecting the House to accept these figures even though budget documents have been tabled in this House by his own Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) showing that the First Minister did not ensure the accuracy of his comments prior to answering the question.

This arrogant attitude displayed by the First Minister in this regard is clearly a contempt of this House and needs to be dealt with by this House. Therefore I would move, seconded by the honourable Member for Tuxedo (Mrs.

Stefanson), THAT this House censure the Premier for his contemptuous actions in knowingly placing misleading information before this House which was not accurate, based upon information al- ready tabled in this Assembly by his own Finance Minister; and THAT the Premier be directed to apologize to the Legislative Assembly and the people of Manitoba for bringing such false information before this House and undermining the integrity and respect of this Legislature. Mr.

Speaker: Before recognizing any other members to speak, I would remind the House that contributions at this time by honourable members are to be limited to strictly relevant comments as to whether the alleged matter of privilege has been raised at the earliest oppor- tunity and whether a prima facie case has been established. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I will strongly suggest, clearly this certainly is not a matter of privilege and would not even constitute a point of order. The first question is wi th regard to whether it was raised at the first available opportunity.

My understanding is that this is with regard to statements made on December 2, so with the delivery

schedule of Hansard this last week it does not appear to have met the first test of being raised at the first available opportunity, which would appear to be either on December 2 or yesterday. On the main point though as to whether there is a prima facie case, I again just note page 11 of Beauchesne: "The distinctive mark of a privilege is its ancillary character. The privileges of Parliament are rights which are 'absolutely necessary for the due execution of its powers'. They are enjoyed by individual Members, because the House cannot perform its functions

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 251 without unimpeded use of the services of its Members". There has been a long line of rulings in this House where matters of privilege have been used to raise political points or arguments and even matters where there are allegations that a mem- ber deliberately misled the House. The clear line of authority in this Chamber is that there has to be essentially an acknowledgment by the person targeted that he or she deliberately misled the Chamber. Mr. Speaker, what we have here, in any event, is a simple dispute. It is a question of political debate and dialogue.

Beauchesne 31(1) says, it has been quoted so many times in this House: "A dispute arising between two Mem- bers, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." So this just does not come near a privilege whatsoever. Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult the authorities and I will return to the House with a ruling. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Scott Smith (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the Second Quarter Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation for the six months ended eptember 30, 2002. S * (13:45) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 201–The Criminal Organizations Deterrence Act (Local Government Acts Amended) Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member– Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot hear the honour- able member. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs.

Smith), that leave be given to introduce Bill 201, The Criminal Organizations Deterrence Act (Local Government Acts Amended), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, this bill gives municipalities the power to pass by-laws that prohibit or regulate businesses carried on by members or associates of a criminal organi- zation, if the business is used to advance the interests of the criminal organization.

The bill also allows municipalities to pass zoning by- laws to deal with places used as residences or meeting places for members or associates of a criminal organization. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Applied Linguistics Centre 5 English as a Second Language students under the direction of Mrs. Ruth Klippenstein. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk).

Also in the public gallery we have from Dufferin Christian School 13 Grade 11 students under the direction of Miss Jessica Hordyk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan). Also in the public gallery we have from Woodlawn School 50 Grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Merlin Braun. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Private/Public Agreements Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, a recent poll by the

252 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 Council for Canadian Unity found that Mani- tobans' support for additional involvement of the private sector to provide health care services has grown by more than 50 percent over the last year. In fact, local support for such a move was the strongest here in western Canada. Could the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) tell this House if she will listen to the growing number of Mani- tobans who support an increased collaboration with private clinics by giving them the choice of going to publicly funded, private facilities for treatment? Hon.

Tim Sale (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I believe this is the Leader of the Opposition who is quoted in the paper as saying something like: If you look in the national newspapers, I think they have been doing some- thing about this poll. He could not quote the poll when he was asked, and he apparently still does not know that the grand total of Manitobans in that poll was 120 people, 120 people. Now, there is a reliable sample for you.

I think it is very clear that Manitobans and Ipsos-Reid polls, and polls that have enough numbers to actually be valid overwhelmingly support this Government's approach to the Pan Am Clinic, which has lowered costs, increased volumes and kept critically needed surgeon specialists in this province, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have decided that health care is a priority and that it should be universal and accessible. They did not decide to abandon quality and choice. I would ask the minister, once again, to reduce waiting lists and offer choice to Manitoba patients.

Would he allow his Government to increase the number of contracts it has with publicly funded private facilities if that is what the majority of anitobans support? M * (13:50) Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, I would just tell the Leader of the Opposition, through you, that in an Ipsos-Reid poll of November 22, two-thirds of Canadians agree with Commissioner Roy Romanow that we do not need user fees, we do not need more private money in the health care system, 67 percent of those in Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

More importantly, in the Pan Am Clinic, the Leader of the Opposition might have read the paper this morning and noted that the waiting list for pain management has been dramatically shortened by virtue of being able to use that clinic's skills and resources appropriately, allow- ing the critical care facilities we have to do their job more appropriately. We have increased vol- umes, saved money, improved patient care by using the Pan Am Clinic as a centre of excellence for community-based surgery and community-based treatment. It works. He does not like that. Mr.

Murray: What I think Manitobans do not like is that this NDP government has to buy the bricks and mortar. We on this side of the House do not care who owns it if it provides timely access to care under a publicly funded system. It is not fair to patients and their families for ideology to be allowed to cripple our health care system and prevent it from offering choice and timely care for patients in Manitoba.

It just makes sense that if the private sector can help reduce waiting lists by providing services within the publicly funded system and if Manitobans support such a move, then government should not stand in the way. I would ask this minister again, if a significant majority of Manitobans supported going to a government-regulated, privately-man- aged clinic for care, would he allow this to happen or would he continue to put their own ideology in front of patient care in Manitoba? Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is very helpful for Manitobans to know that American-style medicine is the preference of the Opposition, with private sector care, private capital. It may also be helpful for Manitobans to know that when they were in gove rnment, they talk about paying for bricks and mortar– Mr. Speaker: Order. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. I need to hear the answer and I need to hear the question. We have just started into Question Period. Question Period is 40 minutes.

The members on that side that are hurling questions over, the members on this side are trying to hurl answers over, you will

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 253 all have a chance. We still have lots of time left in Question Period. Just be patient, please. Mr. Sale: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, it is clear that the Leader of the Op- position supports American-style health care, and it is clear that Manitobans do not. When they are talking about br icks and mortar, as the Leader of the Opposition did, they should acknowledge that when they were in govern- ment, they did not put any money in the budget for bricks and mortar in their last year.

None of the spending for capital in the Brandon hospital, for example, was included in their budget. They did not provide the kind of support for the rebuilding of the health care system which we have had to do because they were not prepared to fund it appropriately, because they were not prepared to spend the money on bricks and mortar so that MRI machines, so that surgery, so that the biggest capital project in Manitoba's history at Health Sciences Centre could go forward properly budgeted for inside the budget, able to be repaid over time as health care expenditures should be. That was not their approach. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a new question. Mr. Murray: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Health care should matter enough for the NDP Doer government to check their ideology at the door and to find new and innovative ways to provide care that Manitobans want and deserve. In an October poll conducted by Western Opinion Research, 80 percent of Manitobans supported being provided the option to go to government regulated, private clinics that are fully covered by medicare. Eighty percent.

Will the minister today commit to abiding by the will of the very people who elected the NDP gov- ernment? Will they allow those to increase the number of contracts Government has with pri- vate health care facilities in the province of anitoba? M * (13:55) Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the Leader of the Opposition wants a health care system where you leave your Visa card at the door. That is the health care system they want.

I would say to the member opposite that health care should matter enough that he would have the preparation and the time priority to appear before the Romanow Commission, the only significant Opposition in the country that did not bother to do so. Health care should matter enough that you have in your health care plan, as Leader of the Opposition, something about nurses. Nurses are not even mentioned in the plan. So I think that health care does matter enough to this Govern- ment. It matters enough that we have increased support for nursing, increased support for the number of doctors in our system.

We have more specialists today. We have drastically more tests being done today. We have shorter waiting lists in many areas, but we have work to do in many areas and every day we get up to do that work. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, faced with the evidence that an overwhelming majority of Manitobans support increased collaboration with the private sector health care to reduce waiting lists and improve access to care, I am disap- pointed to hear that on that side of the House the best they can offer is fearmongering.

The exact question asked in the recent poll stated, and I quote, and I hope they listen: To help shorten waiting lists, Manitobans should have the option of visiting government regulated private clinics that are fully covered by medicare. Mr. Speaker, 80 percent of Manitobans totally agree to this. To break it down, there was 78% support of this among urban residents and 83% support amongst rural residents. Will this minister, will the NDP Doer government, will they listen to the people who elected them and work together with the private sector by con- tracting out those services in Manitoba? Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, in the most recent polls regarding satisfaction, eight out of ten Mani- tobans say their health care is either excellent or very good. Let me tell the House the kind of question, the kind of loaded question that was asked, that 120 Manitobans were asked and supposedly that represents this 80 percent, 120 Manitobans: Which would you prefer, private health for those who can afford it– [interjection] They do not want to hear the answer.

254 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Sale: They were asked three choices, Mr. Speaker. Which do you prefer, private health for those who can afford it, significantly increased taxes or limiting access? That is kind of do you want to be hung or drawn or electrocuted. So they chose which they thought would be the least painful form of death. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to once again remind all honourable members when the Speaker stands, all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence.

I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I un- derstand the minister may be a little wind-blown but perhaps he could listen to my comments. I am not talking about 120 people. I am talking about a Western Opinion Research poll that was conducted where 80 percent of those people felt there should be a joint responsibility of the collaboration between privately run within the publicly funded system. This issue, unfortu- nately, the Doer government is struggling, but it should not be about politics.

It should be about doing what is right for patients. * (14:00) We believe in listening to Manitobans and I do not think Manitobans should have to wait until there is a change in government to get what they want. I have said on several occasions in this House that we would work with this Govern- ment immediately to develop a policy frame- work that the WRHAs could use as a guide to contracting out health care services.

I will ask this minister again: Will he take us up on our offer to develop this framework so Manitobans can start getting the choice and the access to quality care they want and, more importantly, that they are entitled to? Will you take us up on the offer? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, it is dismaying to those of us who have been working in health care policy for more than 25 years. The former government over there at least made a passing commitment to evidence-based decision making.

So when we cite studies that show that cataract surgery waiting times significantly increased when there was private and public provision, when you look at the study, for example, in Ontario that a former member of the Auditor- General's staff in Canada says that an inde- pendent auditor has told Ontario that their plan to build two privately owned hospitals will likely cost taxpayers more in the long run, evidence- based decision making shows that private-public mixes cost more.

All you have to do is go to the United States to see that the American government puts about 5 percent into their health care system and private payers put about another 9 percent, so you have 14 percent of GDP in the United States in a public-private system, with 45 million Americans with no– Mr. Speaker: Order. Next question. Health Care System Private/Public Agreements Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, no less an authority than Mr.

Roy Romanow has told the editorial board of the National Post that even he realizes there may be a role for the private sector to assist in solving the problems facing our health care system. He says, and I quote: The private people, if they can compete without user fees or without a special situation, then fair enough, but there should not be an unlevel playing field. I would ask the Deputy Premier if she or the Premier (Mr.

Doer) has instructed the Health Minister at the national meetings he has attended to attend with an open mind, with an open ear to listen to how other provinces are collaborating with the private sector to provide quicker access to diagnostic services an d day surgeries so that Manitobans can benefit from some of this innovative thinking as well.

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): I am very proud of our Health Minister. He is at the moment at a conference. He has spoken to many Manitobans. He has taken health conferences and health consultations every year across this province. That is what our Health Minister does. He has an open mind about the attitudes and principles of Manitobans. He is aware, as every member on this side of the House is, that the principles of medicare are the ones that we support and are the basis of the equitable and equal society that Manitoba and Canadians enjoy. Mr.

Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Deputy Premier if the minister, as she believes, has an open mind in this situation, will he follow the recommendations that are being made by a number of premiers, a number of Health min- isters across this country? Will he listen closely at these meetings and hear how private clinics in other parts of Canada are providing MRIs, providing CT scans, providing ultrasounds and providing joint replacement surgeries which are helping to reduce waiting lists, improve access to care, improve the quality of life for those people and help to fix the health care problems in Manitoba?

Will he have that kind of open mind? Hon. Tim Sale (Acting Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the Opposition will know that today we released Health CHOICES: What Manitobans Said . Very interesting. They talk about a survey that had 120 people in it as being important. Fifteen thousand Manitobans went to the Web site, eight thousand of them responded in writing with questionnaire responses. What is our attitude towards the use of facilities? What we do is we try to use the facilities Manitobans have bought and paid for more efficiently so we have moved 350 dental surgeries to Thompson.

We moved 350 ortho- pedic and general surgeries to Ste. Anne and Steinbach. This Opposition wants us to build and pay for more facilities when what we are doing is using wisely the public sector facilities across Manitoba. We are redistributing work to the North, to the south. We are building new facil- ities in Brandon so that people in Westman will have excellent care. That is the kind of system Manitobans want. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, we have all seen that the Government has published a booklet that is pure propaganda with no solutions. It is ridicu- lous. I would ask the Deputy Premier (Ms.

Friesen) if she will ensure that the Health Minister attends these meetings with an open mind and is prepared to look at how they can collaborate with the private sector to reduce the problems that have been identified by all those Manitobans that the minister just spoke of. In other words, Madam Minister, when are you going to stop playing politics and start providing solutions? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, former Premier Roy Romanow spent 18 months touring across Canada hearing from an enormous number of people. Unfortunately, he did not hear from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray), but he heard from opposition and government. He heard from private sector and public sector. He examined all of the evidence. It is in his report. The evidence is clear. Mixed, private-public systems do not provide better times for waiting times. They do provide extra costs. The biggest experiment in this in the world is 100 kilometres south of us where 45 million Americans have no health insurance, where waiting times for the poor are enormous and where 14 percent of GDP is spent on health care making the American economy less competitive than our economy is.

Medicare is not just an advantage from a care point of view. It is an advantage economically to our well being as a country. Nicholls Report Class Size and Composition Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, the Premier recently told Manitobans that, and I quote, we are a can-do Government. We want to not just sit on reports and have them gather dust and have them be part of a one-day press conference and go onto some kind of shelf later on.

After spending over $80,000 of taxpayer money to solicit the views of Manitobans on class size and composition, the Nicholls report and all of its recommendations sit on a government shelf. I would like to ask the Minister of Education why this Government allowed the six-month

256 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 deadline to pass, allowing this issue to be determined by arbitration when, in his con- clusions Doctor Nicholls stated, and I quote: that discussions surrounding class size and com- position were viewed as an educational issue rather than a labour issue. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I just want to congratulate the member opposite for being appointed critic for Education and Youth.

If the member wants to take a look at any reports that sat on the shelf, it was the Norrie report that sat on the shelf from their govern- ment that let it sit on the shelf. Just a comment with regard to class size. The Nicholls report took a look at a number of different issues. One was class size and composition. In Manitoba, we fare very well with re gard to class size. The composition is another question, but we are one of the top provinces in the country with regard to student-teacher ratios and we are very proud of that fact. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, the minister, unfor- tunately, has not answered the question. I would ask him whether, in fact, the real reason this has been allowed to go to an arbitration process, in direct contradiction to the $80,000 Nicholls report, is because his Premier made a backroom promise to the teachers union that he would allow this to become an arbitration issue. Mr.

Lemieux: The short answer is no, but this Government on this side, through the previous Minister of Education, made a commitment to education and the youth of this province to provide funding, an unbelievable amount of funding to the education system that was pre- viously run down by the previous government. This Government continues to look at all options that are of benefit to all children in this province. * (14:10) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, this minister has said this issue should be an arbitration issue.

I want to ask this minister why, as Minister of Education and Youth, he is allowing the quality of the education of our students to be determined by arbitration boards rather than sound policy based on the findings that come out of the consultation process that Doctor Nicholls went through. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, once again with regard to the Nicholls report, the Nicholls report was a very important report with regard to education and again took a look at where we placed with regard to teacher and student ratio, which we fared very, very well.

The composition side creates a number of different questions and challenges for us, but I must say with regard to our commitment as a Government on this side through the previous minister and this Government, just the fact that we provided, for example, not just 100, not 200, not 300, but a 400% increase over funding compared to 1995, the year 1995 to 1999, compared to that previous government. Without a doubt the people of Manitoba, the parents in Manitoba and those involved in the school system know whose side we are on.

We are on the side of children and improving education in Manitoba and will continue to do so. Nicholls Report Recommendations Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): The Nicholls report was a very thorough and well- researched document that was received I think by the education community and all of the stakeholders in the education community as a job well done. Of the seven recommendations, the key recommendation was that there be a three-year moratorium on the issue of arbitra- tion. Why have you not followed that key recommendation? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, just with regard to the question of the member opposite, I thank him for the question. The Nicholls report, again, I commented about how it was an important report. In general term s we agree with the Nicholls report, but with regard to class size and composition this is an issue where, the Member for Russell (Mr. Derk ach) commented on it briefly with regard to labour issues, with regard to those issues overall, there was a good and I think a satisfactory process with regard to negotiations where all parties, whether it be teachers or school boards, were satisfied with the

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 257 process that took place for over 40 years until the members opposite decided to make a change in '96, which completely turned many things into turmoil. The process worked well for 40 years until they decided to start dabbling and changing the system that was, I believe, received very well by not only trustees but by teachers overall. Mr. Gilleshammer: The minister did not accept the recommendation on the moratorium. Can he indicate which of the seven recommendations he has accepted? Mr. Lemieux: Mr.

Speaker, there is ongoing work on many of the different recommendations in the Nicholls report. I can tell you that, overall, not only Mr. Nicholls himself is respected by many individuals in the province, but we have taken a look at the report and many of the issues that he addressed are ongoing issues. Mr. Gilleshammer: I would ask the minister to read the report and lo ok at the seven recom- mendations. I would ask him again which of the seven recommendations has he accepted. Is he aware of them? Mr. Lemieux: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I said with regard to the Nicholls report and some of the recommendations that were made there, in general terms we accept a number of the recom- mendations that Mr. Nicholls has put forward. But with regard to the one on class size and composition, the Premier (Mr. Doer) made a comment a number of years ago that should we become government and government of the day, we would be taking a serious look at that particular issue with regard to class size and composition. Again, with regard to the class size, we fare very, very well country-wid e.

We are looking at the size of class and we are looking at also the composition of class. In talking to many of the people I have met in the last few weeks since becoming minister, they have made comments on the fact that our class size, overall, is very, very good in Manitoba. The composition side, Mr. Speaker, creates a challenge for us all when we take a look at autistic children, children with FAS and those kinds of learning disabilities. Highway Construction/Maintenance Fuel Taxes Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation.

I understand from reading the provincial briefing material on Manitoba's Transport Vision 2020, that from 1995 to 1996, up until 2001- 2002 fiscal years, that the Province collected $1.385 million in road fuel taxes and spent only $1.358 million on Manitoba road infrastructure, a difference of some $27 million in what was reported to be raised and what was reported to be spent. Why was this $27 million collected not also spent on building highways in this rovince? p Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for the question. Mr.

Speaker, the highway system in Manitoba has improved over the last three years through a commitment by this Government to invest in our highways. I can tell you that the increase in capital of 16 percent done by the previous Minister of Highways was a well- ained addition to the province of Manitoba. g I can tell you that the taxes collected and dollars collected from this province go absolute- ly back into our road systems in this province for the safety of Manitobans. Equalization Transfer Payments Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary to the Minister of Transportation.

According to the same report, I would ask why the Government did not spend even a single penny of the $1.3 billion received in federal equalization payments to build road infrastruc- ture in this province? Is road infrastructure not an important component of being able to provide equal service in Manitoba compared to other prov- inces? It is exactly what equalization transfers are meant for.

258 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to again mention to the member that the dollars that are taken in, he goes back to '75. When we formed government in '99, or he said '95 and we formed government in '99, the dollars we take in do go back into the road systems in Manitoba. I think the real question Manitobans might be asking, Mr. Speaker, is why do they take $155 million in federal excise taxes out of this province and put $7 million back in? That is the real question.

Equalization Transfer Payments Accountability Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My second supplementary to the Minister of Finance. I ask the Minister of Finance when the Gov- ernment will provide a full accounting of how the equalization transfer s are spent in these dollars. When will we have an accountable gov- ernment in this province? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the money we receive through transfer payments from Ottawa is fully accounted for in every budget, but what the member opposite should remember is that when he was in gov- ernment, they put a cap on equalization which has cost the Government of Manitoba hundreds of millions of dollars of lost revenue because of their desire to make sure that they balance their budget on the backs of Manitobans by cuts in health care, cuts in post-secondary education, an abandonment of social services, an abandonment of public housing and an abandonment of infra- structure.

That is the legacy we are dealing with in this province from your time in government. Agricultural Policy Framework Update Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture and Food . Yesterday, the Minister of Agriculture stood up for Manitoba farmers at the federal-prov- incial-territorial meeting, stood up for Manitoba producers at that meeting in a discussion re- garding the Agricultural Policy Framework.

One of the pillars of the APF is renewal, and I will ask the minister to provide an update on Mani- toba's efforts in this very important area for anitoba farmers. M * (14:20) Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising this important issue because although the members of the Opposition do not think it is important that a Minister of Agriculture should be at the table when we are having discussions on the Agriculture Policy Framework– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order.

The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, let this minister not put words in our mouth. We do think it is very important that a Minister of Agriculture stand up for the Manitoba farmers and be at these meetings in Ottawa, but what we do not believe is that it should be this minister, who walks out on meetings when she is in Ottawa and throws her little temper tantrums and gets nothing for Manitoba farmers. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Agriculture and Food, on the same point of order? Ms.

Wowchuk: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. The member opposite raises the fact about supporting the minister's being at the meeting, but yesterday I was referring to the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) was critical of me being at Agriculture ministers meetings in Ottawa, and the member does not have a point of order on this.

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 259 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before making my ruling, I would just like to remind all honourable mem- bers that points of order are to point out to the Speaker a departure of the rules or practices of the House and not to be used for debate. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * Ms. Wowchuk: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I indeed was at a ministers' meeting in Ottawa yesterday, where we talked about the Agri- cultural Policy Framework.

One of the important pillars of the Agricultural Policy Framework is renewal of the next generation. I am very proud of the steps that our Government has taken to renew the next generation of farmers through our Project 2000, which was an election commit- ment on this Government's part. We first brought in the mentorship program. Then we introduced Bridging Generations. Although the other side of the House did not think it was a good program, I can tell you that 78 loans have been made, and a total of over $9.6 million has been put into the hands of young farmers through the program we intro- duced.

Agricultural Policy Framework Manitoba Participation Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): We all know the minister was in Ottawa yesterday. We all know that she has had signific ant discussions on farm policy and farm programming. Yet we have all seen, in the last couple of weeks, the census report of the decline in the farm population in this province, which is simply not acceptable. Mr. Speaker, 13.5 percent of our young people under 35 have left this province in the last number of years. I think it is an indication of how inactive and how inept our Government has been in supporting that farm community.

I want to ask this minister today. She made a big to-do about signing on to the APF agreement in Swan River, in her own community. She indicated they would participate, and yet, a few weeks later, she got up in this province, in a news conference, and said we will not partic- ipate in the 60-40 program that would support the farmers of Canada to do the transition pro- gram. When will this minister commit to her 40% commitment that would see our farmers treated equally in this province of Manitoba? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, the member raised the 13.5% decrease in farmers in this province, and it is a really serious issue. I have to tell the member that, if he looks at the dates of those stats, it is half in their admin- istration and half in our administration. They also had some responsibility, but they took no action. We are taking action. We are putting funding in place to help young people get back into agriculture. He should know that the pro- gram we have put in place is recognized across the country.

Other provinces are looking at how they can put in place programs that will help young farmers get back into agriculture. With respect to the Agricultural Policy Framework agreement, I want to tell the member that he is wrong. We did sign on to the Agri- cultural Policy Framework agreement. We did not sign on to the trade injury money. Everyone knows that. If he would really read the press release that came out of Swan River, that was not– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Jack Penner: A very simple question: When will this Government pay the $40 million it owes to the farmers of this province of Mani- toba, that they will be treated as other farmers in other parts of this country are supported by their government? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to reflect on history a little bit and remember the discussions, the all-party agree- ments, the all-party resolution that we had here in this House. I would ask the member to remember some of the comments that they made, that trade injury was 100% federal responsibility.

If you look at the process as how we got to this trade injury money, this is fully a federal responsibility, an d I am very surprised

260 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 that the members opposite would expect a provincial government to fill the gap left by a federal government. Of course, these are mem- bers across the way that supported the elimi- nation of the Crow, that literally took money out of farmers' pockets, and they supported it. Now they want a provincial government to fill a gap that they were responsible for creating. No. That s not a provincial government's responsibility. i Mr.

Jack Penner: It is very obvious that this minister is willing to throw the young farmers of this province to the crows, and I think her reflection is deplorable. She has made a com- mitment. She signed, she put her name on the otted line and signed onto the APF– d Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a supplementary question, and clearly in this House it is a rule that a supplementary question should need no

preamble: 409(2). Would you please ask the member to put his question? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on the same point of order? On the point of order raised by the hon- ourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question hould not require a

preamble. s * * * Mr. Speaker : I kindly ask the honourable ember for Emerson to please put his question. M Mr. Jack Penner: When will this Government, when will this Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) insist that their Minister of Agriculture meet the com- mitments that she made in signing on to the APF agreement and pay the y oung farmers of this province the $40 million that this Government owes them? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I wonder which way this government wants it.

Yesterday they were being critical of me for being at an Agriculture ministers' meeting where in fact we were working out the details of the Agricultural Policy Framework which will be completed very soon. I can tell you that the members are talking about trade injury money and the $600 million that the federal government has put in place. I do not believe it is the responsibility of provincial governments to pick up where the federal gov- ernment reneges on their responsibility, and that is where the majority of the provinces are.

The majority of the provinces do not support the trade injury package, but I can tell you that Manitoba is at the table with 40 percent of the program where the provincial governments do have a responsibility. Kyoto Protocol East-West Power Grid Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): In the past month the minister responsible for the Kyoto accord has mentioned the construction of a south-east-west power grid as essential to Mani- toba's ability to meet its Kyoto commitments.

Can the minister tell this House where the negotiations are on the south-east-west power grid and when is the Government prepared to release the estimated costs of Manitoba's portion f constructing the power grid? o * (14:30) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): It is actually east-west. We have a very strong grid going south at this point already in the United States. Mr.

Speaker, officials of the Hydro corpo- rations of the two provinces are working very intently on the issue of both the east-west grid in terms of Ontario and Manitoba and looking at the 1988 Conawapa agreement, which unfortu- nately was not proceeded with at the time. I think it was very unfortunate that the previous government did not go ahead and complete the environmental impact studies that might have been done at that time. Had they been done, we would be a lot further ahead on this issue today. It is too bad they did not have the foresight to do that. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 261 Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: Order. I have a ruling for the House. During Oral Questions on December 2, 2002, the honourable Official Opposition House Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) raised a point of order regarding comments allegedly spoken by the honourable Minister of Agriculture and Food (Ms. Wowchuk) from her seat. The honourable Official Opposition House Leader stated that the honourable minister had said from her seat the words "liar, liar" that we re directed towards the honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach).

I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse Hansard. I thank the honourable Official Opposition House Leader for his contribution. I have read the exchange on page 103 of Hansard where the words were allegedly spoken, and Hansard does not contain a record of the words "liar, liar" being spoken. I must therefore rule th at there is no point of order. I would like to note for the House, when the point of order was raised there was much disorder and that perhaps this was not our finest display of decorum. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Poplarfield Development Corporation Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to tell the Assembly of a very special event which occurred in my home community of Poplarfield this past weekend. I am referring to the annual King Buck dance which takes place on the last day of the whitetail rifle season and showcases a display of some of the trophies taken during the hunt. The event is put on by the Poplarfield Development Corporation, which has been in existence now for a period approaching 20 years. This committee has played a vital role in the past and should be commended for its efforts.

It was constituted originally to organize the community to lobby for the construction of subsidized seniors housing and it was successful in this bjective in that the Poplarvilla is now a reality. o The corporation then undertook a second major project which was the construction of the King Buck statue, a monument which is second to none in the Interlake. The King Buck dance was the vehicle through which the funds were raised. Hunters came from across the province to enter their trophies, as the Poplarfield region is recognized as one of the finest deer hunting areas in all of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, the new Poplarfield Development Corporation board has recently let it be known that it will not rest on the laurels of the past but will be reaching out to the community with new initiatives and ideas and will be asking for the full support of the people n this regard. i I want to close by acknowledging and thanking previous board members for their contributions to their community, and I want to wish the present board future success in their endeavors. Volunteerism, co-operation and com- munity participation are critical if our small rural towns are to not only survive but to thrive as well.

Mental Health Care Facilities Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to take issue with an NDP spokesperson, who in the Winnipeg Free Press last month accused the Tories of fearmongering about the safety of hospital psychiatric patients. When we raised concerns about sexual assaults in psychiatric wards in the Legislature last spring, the minister told us that the status quo was fine.

Three investigations into the assault were conducted several months ago and the minister did not release the results of any of them until only this week when the WRHA released the results of th eir internal and external reviews. It was not until we pursued the issue last month that the minister's office even bothered to inform Manitobans that new security measures have been instituted at two hospitals. Mr. Speaker, I question why the Health Minister does not think it is important to take the safety of psychiatric patients seriously. If our caucus had not pushed for answers, the public

262 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 still would not know that security had been enhanced. Perhaps the Health Minister should speak to women who, while trying to battle very serious illnesses, were sexually assaulted in hospitals. I have spoken to a couple of women who have been assaulted in the past and they fear for their safety should they have a relapse. Why did the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) not think it was important enough to inform Winnipeg, in a proactive and timely manner, that new safety measures were put in place?

We have said all along that the minister's main concern should be safety. It is shameful that his staff chose to deflect from their own inaction by throwing out baseless accusations about fearmongering. Manitoba psychiatric patients deserve safety and security on their road to recovery, and I will not apologize for asking about the status of security measures in our hospitals. I urge the Minister of Health to move quickly to address the recommendations which have been put forward.

Although the Minister of Health made fun of our recommendation to examine the feasibility of segregated wards, I would note that it is a major recommendation in the review. I encourage the Minister of Health to act swiftly to review these recommendations in order to ensure safety for patien ts in our psychiatric wards. Summit on Early Childhood Development Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to talk about an impressive event I attended recently. I was a participant at the Summit on Early Childhood Development: Investing in Today's Children, Tomorrow's Leaders.

The summit took place on November 20, 2002, National Child Day, at the Hotel Fort Garry. The chair of the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet, the Minister of Energy (Mr. Sale), extended all MLAs an invitation to the summit. The event was hosted by the Manitoba Chil- dren's Agenda, a partnership of the federal and provincial governments. The summit was utilized to bring together business and community leaders to participate in a dialogue on early childhood development issues in urban and rural Manitoba.

This event arose due to the recent explosion of research that states the critical importance of the early years, which has demonstrated that ensuring the best possible start for our children is not only the right thing to do, but it is an economic imperative. This summit fostered all segments of society to work together to establish a climate and culture that supports and promotes the well- being of all our children. The keynote speakers included Charles Coffey, executive vice-president, government and community affairs from RBC Financial Group, Dr.

Dan Offord, director of Canadian Centre for Studies of Children at Risk, from McMaster University, and lastly, Dr. Satya Brink, director, Child, Youth and Social Devel- opment Studies, from the applied research branch, Human Resources Development Canada. Mr. Speaker, in Manitoba the spirit of co- operation and commitment built around children is going a step further. Unique in Canada, the Province of Manitoba and the federal govern- ment have made a local commitment to combine energies to make the goal of the National Chil- dren's Agenda a provincial reality.

In conclusion, I would like to commend those who attended the summit and participated in promoting the well-being of children and families, which goes well beyond government and is greatly influenced by community in- volvement. CBC Radio Christmas Presentation Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today to, first of all, thank Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson for coming to southern Mani- toba, specifically to the town of Altona last night, to help present A Christmas Celebration in Words and Music. * (14:40) Eric Friesen, from CBC and CBC Radio Two's crew were there to film a two-hour

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 263 presentation, and my colleague Peter George Dyck and I were fortunate enough to be invited to this presentation. The presentation was directed by Henry Engbrecht, who is the artistic director and con- ductor of Canzona performance group in the city of Winnipeg, largely made up of volunteers. It also features Susan Platts, a mezzo soprano out of Toronto, a young lady that is touted to be one of the best mezzo sopranos in North America today.

The presentation included Lottie Enns- Braun on the organ, Shannon Hiebert on the harpsichord, Paul Marleyn on cello, David Moroz on piano, Douglas Perry on viola, Richard Turner on harp and Willie Wiebe, a local guitarist from Steinbach, did an absolutely exemplary job of performing. I would recommend to all people in this Legislature that they should take time on December 24 to listen to CBC Radio and listen to the Christmas presentation that was made. They would hear Her Exce llency Mrs. Clarkson and Mr.

Friesen do a number of readings that I thought were just absolutely wonderful and truly presented the message of Christmas. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the hon- ourable Member for Riel , I really hate inter- rupting members when they are in the middle of their members' statements but I would like to give a kindly reminder to all honourable mem- bers, when making reference to a colleague, please do so by constituency or ministers by their titles, not by their names. I ask the co- operation of all honourable members, please. Fédération des caisses populaires du Manitoba Ms.

Linda Asper (Riel): Je suis très heureuse aujourd'hui de souligner le cinquantième an- niversaire de la Fédération des caisses populaires du Manitoba qui a été créée en 1952. Le mouvement des caisses populaires du Manitoba a joué un rôle très important dans le développement économique des communautés francophones rurales et urbaines. Translation I am pleased today to draw your attention to the 50th anniversary of the Fédération des caisses populaires du Manitoba which was founded in 1952.

The caisses populaires movement played a very important role in the economic development of urban and rural Francophone communities. English The Manitoba caisse populaire movement is a dynamic movement with $500 million in assets owned by approximately 33 000 members. We are celebrating its 50th anniversary in our prov- ince. The nine Manitoba caisses populaires op- erate 31 points of service in 28 Manitoba communities, including Winnipeg. The move- ment employs more than 200 employees and is assisted by numerous volunteers who generously give their time.

La Fédération est une coopérative et les propriétaires sont les neuf caisses populaires du Manitoba. Son rôle principal est de fournir une variété de services aux caisses. La Fédération appuie les caisses populaires pour qu'elles puis- sent offrir des services financiers de qualité à leurs membres en français et en anglais. Le 28 novembre 2002, la Fédération a célébré son cinquantième anniversaire. De nombreux invités se sont joints à la Fédération pour souligner ses réalisations, à la Maison du bourgeois au Fort Gibraltar.

À la célébration, il y avait des employés et des bénévoles, des représentants de la Société d'assurance-dépôts, du mouvement des credit unions, du mouvement Desjardins et du gouvernement. J'aimerais féliciter la Fédération des caisses populaires à cette occasion et leur souhaiter ongue vie. l Translation The Fédération is a co-operative owned by the nine caisses populaires of Manitoba. Its primary role is to offer a variety of services to the caisses. The Fédération assists the caisses populaires in providing quality financial serv- ices in both French and English.

264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 On November 28, 2002, the Fédération celebrated its 50th anniversary. Numerous guests joined the Fédération to mark its ac- complishments at the Maison du bourgeois at Fort Gibraltar. The celebration was attended by employees and volunteers as well as represent- atives of the Société d'assurance-dépôts, the credit union movement, the Desjardins move- ent and the government. m I wish to congratulate the Fédération des caisses populaires on this occasion and wish it con- tinued success.

English I wish to congratulate the Manitoba caisse populaire movement for its contribution to Manitoba in its 50 years and the services it offers. May it continue to prosper. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Fifth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Con- servation (Mr. Ashton). An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the will of the House for the motion to remain standing in the name of the honourable Minister of Conservation, who has four minutes remaining? Is there unanimous consent of the House for the honourable Minister of Conservation? He has four minutes remaining. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. It has been denied. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): I welcome the opportunity to speak to the House today in response to the Speech from the Throne. I would first like to indicate that we welcome back all the pages who are here with us for this session of the Legislature.

Our hope is that you, as pages, will have a great experience to carry with you for the rest of your lives and that maybe, perhaps, one day you will take a seat in this House as an MLA in the Legislature based on the experience you have had here during this time. We wish you well in your studies at school, your graduation and any kind of post-secondary training you are seeking. It is really nice to have you back. We always look forward to having the pages with us here each and every year. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am going to be brief in my comments and just say that in terms of alerting the government side who is going to be putting up the speaker, not to go too far away. It was interesting, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I listened with great interest, the last day we were debating the Throne Speech from the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) and the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) in the fact that in their presentations and in their speeches, they paid a great deal of interest and time to the alternate throne speech that the Progressive Conservative Party and our Leader from Kirkfield Park presented to this House and to the people of Manitoba. It makes me even confirm it in my own mind that the Speech from the Throne that was presented by the Government had nothing in that Speech from the Throne. It had no substance because they had to spend a lot of time talking about our alternate speech from the throne and the things that we would have done.

So I appreciate the comments that were made by the Minister of Conservation, the ember for Thompson. M He made a remark about how this side of the House was talking about rhetoric. Without word of a–I do not know if I could use the words "word of a lie," but the member from Thompson is probably the king of rhetoric, and his Leader. So I think that he is not one to be talking about and espousing how much rhetoric is coming from this side as to listen to himself. He should read some of his own speeches and see how much rhetoric comes from himself.

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 265 I just want to spend a little bit of time, since this could be, I guess, my last official speech in the House. We are not sure. Nobody is able to tell me whether it is or not. I have to speculate on the fact that it might only be a few months, or it may be a year, or it may be a year and a half. If I have to go on the basis of hearsay from the Premier (Mr. Doer) when I chatted with him briefly at the Lieutenant-Governor's reception, he indicated that he preferred the four-and-a- half-year time frame.

So I am thinking that maybe it is going to be a year and a half. I may have another chance to even make another speech in response to the Throne Speech. I would have to say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the time I have been in the House has been a very interesting learning experience.

It has been an experience that I will cherish forever, and some of the things that occurred during my time–of course, when I came in in 1995, we were part of the government, and I was taking part and assisting in the rural task force and had the privilege of travelling around the province listening to Manitobans talk about rural issues, whether it be agricultur e, whether it be rural development.

I think that overall, when we came back from that task force and developed our report and presented it to the government, many of the recommendations that we put forward to our government of the day were accepted and put into place. That was a very rewarding experience for me, and I had the honour of sharing that experience with my colleague from Turtle Mountain and my colleague from Emerson who chaired the committee as we went around the province, and we were able to spend many, many hours discussing rural issues. I would also mention, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that probably one of the highlights of my career in this Legislature was when I had the honour and the privilege of becoming the Minister of Government Services and the Minister respon- sible for the Emergency Management Organ- ization.

Of course, at that time when I was sworn in, many of my colleagues had indicated to me that the portfolio was one that certainly required a lot of time and energy, but, basically, in terms of the public exposure because Government Services really did not have all that much, and Emergency Management, they did have the flooding issues but, generally speaking, they have not been that great. That was January of 1997, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and then in March of 1997, that same year, we experienced a flood like we have never seen before in this province.

That flood occurred in a great portion of my constituency, as well, so, firstly, it affected my constituents. It affected people that I have known for years. It affected my friends and it affected my family.

As such, it was a difficult time to go through this in terms of trying to act responsibly as a government re- sponding, first off, to the flood and the measures that had to be taken with regard to evacuation of persons for their own safety, and, secondly, for the recovery process in getting people back into their homes, getting people back onto their farms and getting things back to, I would say, in parentheses, "normal," although everybody realized that getting back to normal was some- thing that really was not going to happen.

There were changes and life was not going to be the same because of all th e things that had to happen. * (14:50) But I was happy to see our ability to work with the federal government and to come to an agreement, and we came to an agreement on May 1, 1997, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a mem- orandum of understanding that would commit the federal and provincial governments to a fairly sizeable amount of money to be spent in terms of recovery from the flood, as well as investing money in the future in terms of flood protection.

So some of the programs that we brought into place, which I am proud to be a part of, especially within the Department of Gov- ernment Services and Emergency Management, was the physical anomalies program, where we w e r e a b l e t o t a k e t o constituents and people living in the valley whose homes were flooded, whose homes could not be repaired or replaced on that site because the site did not allow them to be protected from the Red River and the ravages of flood waters in the future, either due to the fact that the size of the property was too small, or the riverbanks were too fragile and could not be built up with dikes.

It allowed the program to purchase those properties from those individuals at fair market value prior to the flood and allow them to pick up, carry to another place

266 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 and to rebuild and, hopefully, rebuild their lives at the same time, as a result of the flood. That, to me, was an accomplishment that we were able to work out with the federal government as partners in this program. Now, the federal government also came along and partnered with us in what we called the economic anomalies program which this Gov- ernment, when they took office, actually brought to fruition because we were in discussion.

The economic anomalies were that the property that was being protected by the floodproofing did not have enough value to it to warrant spending all the money on floodproofing. I give you an example, where a home and farm buildings might only be worth $40,000, maybe $50,000, and to have and ask for an investment of taxpayers' dollars to the tune of $100,000 or $114,000 which was available to most farms; it did not make sense. So it was a case of do not bother flood- proofing; here is money for your buildings. Go and establish somewhere else.

Many people took the opportunity of that program and built new residences within the ring dike communities through the valley, whether it be Morris, St. Jean, Emerson, Letellier, St. Pierre and so on. That was part of the experience I had as being a Minister of Government Services. There were also some very high moments, Mr. Deputy Speaker, even during the flood. I know that meeting members of the Royal family is something that, as part of this position, we have the privilege to do, where others do not.

For that, I am eternally grateful because of the fact of having met the Royals in person, and I had the privilege of quickly meeting Prince Charles, but more so, on a more personal basis, I had a chance to spend quite a bit of time with Prince Phillip when he actually came out to the community of Ste. Agathe to have a look at, first-hand, the flood damage that occurred to the residents of Ste. Agathe. This occurred in the late summer of 1997. So we spent a great deal of time walking around the community of Ste.

Agathe visiting with people out there who were in the process of recovery , and, of course, just recently having the opportu nity to visit with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth in the celebration of her jubilee year. I can remember as a child in school the coronation day of the Queen, and so it brought back a lot of memories of that time in school. Mr. Deputy Speaker, just a few words about the constituency of Morris, and some of it I have already spoken about with respect to the flood and what happened during that period of time.

The constituency, when I first took office, was a constituency that ran east and west, took in the communities of Morris and St. Pierre and, of course, the municipality of Macdonald, the municipality of Morris, and it also encompassed the communities of Carman, the municipality of Dufferin, Miami, Roland and the municipalities of Thompson and Roland, and so it was running ast-west. e * (15:00) When the boundaries were reshuffled, I was really not expecting too much of a change to take place because we had had the average growth of a constituency.

I was not expecting that the changes to the boundaries in the western constituencies would have a major impact on Morris. For the 1999 election, the Morris constit- uency changed from an east-west constituency to a north-south. The municipalities of Dufferin and Roland and Thompson were dropped with the com- munities of Roland and Miami and Carman, and picked up the R.M. of Headingley, picked up the R.M. of St. François Xavier, picked up the R.M. of Cartier and all of the R.M. of De Salaberry, which included St. Malo now, as well as St. Pierre. So the constituency took on a north-south approach.

It made it quite different, but, in essence, for me, it was a great experience to have met and developed many friendships east and west across the original constituency and then to develop the same kind of relationships on the north-south axis. So it was really, as much as it was, in a way, an extra burden at the time of the election, it really turned out to be a great experience for me in having the opportunity to meet all these new folks in the new constituency and to develop friendships with them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I know that, when you are a sitting MLA, there are often issues in your

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 267 own constituency that you have, that a lot of them can be resolved, but there are some that will not be resolved. I would just like to spend a little bit of time talking about some of the outstanding issues that are going to be affecting the Morris constituency and which I would like to elaborate on.

The first issue, outstanding issue, of course, is the issue with respect to the Morris-Mac- donald School Division and what happened over the last year and a half with the school division, and the actions that were taken by this Government with respect to that school division.

I am positive, and I am very strong of the opinion that everything that did happen with the Morris-Macdonald School Division was not as a fact the fault of the school division as it was of the minister and the Department of Education at the time not having rules, guidelines or any kind of legislation in place with regard to adult education centres.

I believe that when this group, the taxpayers' group, the coalition group that is in the old Morris-Macdonald School Division of the R.M. of Morris and the R.M. of Macdonald, when they are able to take this into a courtroom and go through the total in terms of being able to cross- examine and bring information from witnesses, it will be known then that what happened in the Morris-Macdonald School Division was really a travesty of justice, that they were mistreated and they were treated harshly by a government that had no feeling at all for what they were doing and made no attempt at negotiation or discussion, that took very unilateral action and damning action to the school division.

I think that that, after it comes through in court, will show that the Government was in error on this. There is also another outstanding issue I would like to elaborate on a bit, and it is something that has come up as a result of this past summer's flooding along the Rat River in the community of St. Malo. As I mentioned earlier, there was a program within the Emer- gency Management Organization when I was minister that we had that was called the physical anomalies program, where properties could be purchased if they could not be protected from flood waters. This time around, in the com- munity of St.

Malo, as a result of the June rains– also, they were flooded in 1997. So in 1997, they protected their properties to 1997 plus two feet. They were supposed to be protected. However, in June of this year, with the heavy rains that occurred in southeastern Manitoba and the rapid movement of water off the eastern escarpment into the Rat River system, 1997 plus two feet was inadequate protection. So the question has to be asked as to how high will they have to build their diking system in order to protect themselves from any kind of future flooding.

There is not anybody that will give them a firm prediction as to what future levels the Rat River could be. It is, therefore, my argument, and I have taken it up with the Premier (Mr. Doer), that these properties–and there is only about a ha ndful of properties, maybe half a dozen proper ties that are subjected to levels of water that, in fact, these people do not know what level of dike they should have until the actual water hits, as it did this summer.

Therefore, I beg to ask the question as to why the provincial government cannot negotiate some sort of an agreement with the federal government or even on their own to purchase those properties, to allow those people to move out of that area and co nvert it to green space, because St. Malo is a beautiful provincial park and it could have more green space within the community that is along the Rat River. It would be a great place, maybe, for canoeists to canoe down the river from the provincial park and have a campout or have a picnic site.

A lot of things could happen there, but it requires the will of the provincial government to step forward to say, yes, we believe that these properties cannot be protected to the point where people who live there will live there safely and have that safety feeling, that feeling that they are safe. As long as they do not, I wonder why the Government is not moving ahead to purchase those properties. There is also another issue that is across the entire Morris constituency, and that deals with drainage and water management. Water manage- ment, of course, is part of the issue with the Rat River going through St.

Malo and St. Pierre. So water management, I think, has got to be a program that is strongly emphasized and

268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 strongly supported throughout the entire valley region and the escarpments on either side of the valley.

We cannot continue to increase the size of drains to allow more water to pass through to the Red River creating undue, very erratic flows in the summertime when we should be managing water to the ends of the tributaries on both sides of the Red River and, in fact, the entire Red River watershed which even encompasses the Assiniboine River, and having the whole struc- ture of water management as a priority for this Government and what I think will be our Government in the next election. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would just like to indicate that I have been here for a little bit over seven years.

It might be seven and a half, maybe eight years, maybe eight and a half. I do not know. I asked the question that, if I am going to plan for retirement, that I have a year and a half, I do not know when it is going to kick in. So I am just wondering when that time will come, but I certainly have enjoyed my time while I have been here. In fact, I have enjoyed the member from Elmwood and his enquiry each year into the Estimates process when we were in government. He always asked questions that were different. I had to always be on my toes with his ques- tioning.

I was kind of hoping that he would be part of the Cabinet structure with the NDP government and to ask him questions, as well. Will I have the opportunity? I do not know, but it certainly would be nice if I did have the opportunity before this House when the writ was dropped that I could ask him a few questions along the same nature that he asked of me. I have enjoyed my time with the member from Elmwood. We always had a sort of a light attitude, I think, towards things. So that had always been a lot of fun.

Anyway, it has been a thrill and a privilege for me to serve in this House, and I thank the people of my constituency for their support over the last seven-plus years. Without their support, my job here would have been much more difficult, and they are a people that will tackle problems themselves. They are very inde- pendent, and they do not always look to government for support. They are very inde- pendent minded, and they are saying mostly to us, as part of government or as the government side, not to bring in regulations that will affect them, but just stay out of the way and allow them to develop.

I also thank all my caucus colleagues for all of their support over the last seven-plus years, and I would like to give my best to the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) as she ventures into the retirement mode, spending more time with–not knowing for sure, but she probably will know before I do–her grandchildren. Also, I would like to wish my colleague from Lakeside the very best in his retirement. He and I go back a long way. In fact, when I first was employed with the Manitoba Department of Agriculture, he was my boss.

I worked for the honourable minister at that time. [interjection] It was a grand association, you bet. It was most enjoyable working for hi m and then, in turn, coming into the Legislature and working with him. So it has always been a real blast working with the member from Lakeside. As well, I would like to wish my colleague from Minnedosa all the best in his retirement. * (15:10) An Honourable Member: Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). Mr. Pitura: No. The Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), al l the best in his retirement, as well. I would just like to say, in closing, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that it has certainly been a privilege. I consider it a privilege to be here and an honour to have served. So, thank you very much. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): It is, indeed, an honour to be able to put a few words on record on this the Fourth Session of the Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Province of Manitoba. I thank the Speaker for his smooth and impartial and fair way of keeping order in this House. I also want to thank the Clerk, the

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 269 table officers, Sergeant-at -Arms, and I want to thank the new pages. I also particularly want to thank the new interns. I know that I worked with three of them. They ar e all very good people, and they help us a lot. So I want to pay particular attention to Patrick Sarginson, Monica Dominguez and Rachel Whiddon, and thank them for their hard work. I also want to thank the staff that makes this building function properly. These are the people in the background. We do not see them very often, but they certainly make things happen for us here.

I would also like to pay tribute to those members in this Legislature who are no longer seeking re-election. I want to thank them on behalf of all Manitobans. That includes the Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), who has just concluded his remarks. He is a graduate–I am not sure if the word is "graduate," but he is a member of the class of '95, as my honourable colleague beside me is, and I am also. I want to thank him very much for the work he has done on behalf of all Manitobans. He is a person with great integrity. We all know that. I also want to pay tribute to the Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer), who is not seeking re-election, a former teacher and principal, hard worker, very respected colleague, and, of course, pay tribute to the dean of this institution, the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), who has been here for 36 years and on whose isdom we have all come to rely. w As well, I want to thank and pay tribute to the Member for Inkster (Ms. Barrett), who is not seeking re-election. She is the Labour Minister. I want to thank her on a personal note for the numerous times that I drag her up north to talk to the labour liaison groups there.

In fact, I think I see her more often than the northern members, and I see them quite often, but I think I see the Labour Minister even more often. So I thank her very much, not only because she meets with labour liaison over there, but she also meets with individual constituents. She always has a ready smile and good advice and keeps me in check on occasion. I really appreciate that.

This Throne Speech, and I know I am going to disappoint the Member for Morris, because I am going to have to mention the alternative throne speech, as well, as many of you have done, mainly because I want some darkness in order to show off, to contrast against this diamond that is our Throne Speech. The alterna- tive throne speech is rea lly, in many senses, a fake document. It is not as balanced as the real Throne Speech. It makes a lot of promises. I think the real Throne Speech is much more moderate in tone, believe it or not. It is balanced. It is pragmatic, and it builds on the other three throne speeches.

If you would like to take a look at the alternative throne speech, there is no costing of those great promises or great sug- gestions that are there–some of them are great; some of them are not–no idea of what this is going to cost. It is pretty vague, and it is pretty right wing. As the Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has stated before, not only is the alternative throne speech inconsistent, as I pointed out, it has some spectacular omissions. For example, it omits the entire northern two-thirds of the province. It does not talk about northern Manitoba once.

So I guess, from the perspective of that particular alternative Tory throne speech, any area north of a Tory riding does not exist. So that was the way it went for 11 years, and we are not happy with that. At least in former Tory throne speeches, the North got a bit of a sop, like one or two sentences. This alternative throne speech, they get nothing. I should add that, for the first time in a long time, when we put out the road map of this province, it consists of all of Manitoba. Some of those Tory road maps, the northern portion of this province, apparently, did not exist.

On page 2 of the alternative throne speech, there is the phrase: co mmon-sense approach to governing. I thought that was what we had been doing for three years, but, apparently, the common sense that it is talking about is a dif- ferent type of common sense. It is the Mike Harris common sense from Mike Harris' common-sense revolution. We know that those really are recycled right-wing nostrums that have not worked. They did not work on the larger scale for Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan. They did not work for Mike Harris, and despite the oil wealth, they are not working for Ralph

270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 Klein. So I am surprised that the members are going in that direction. By the way, I could add they did not work for Stockwell Day either. So the Tory common sense that is being preached is really, in many ways, right-wing dogma. They are preaching more of the same ideology that basically lost them the last election, and I think they really do need to get in tune with the people of this province. I could point out to the province to the east of us.

Notice that Premier Ernie Eves is back- pedalling furiously to get away from that com- mon-sense stuff from Mike Harris because it does not work. His common-sense revolution was ruthless, and there has been a tremendous backlash, not only among teachers and working class people, among the entire province, and he realizes that. I suppose, if you want to get really crass about it, when you look at the Walkerton tragedy, I wonder what role the privatization of testing water had to do with that tragedy.

You wonder when the Tories under Mike Harris were going the privatization direction with Ontario Hydro, you wonder why they did not realize that it was going to end up in smoke. That is why Ernie Eves has to back off privatizing Ontario Hydro, because it will be a monstrous failure if he continues. There has been failure elsewhere. When you privatize public utilities like electricity, you see what happens in California or in Alberta or in Ontario. We do not need more of that same type of medicine. We saw it with our own MTS. Again, right-wing dogma and right-wing think- ing.

Selling MTS, which is like selling your house to pay for your car, does not solve the problem. I can tell you that rate shock did set in after we privatized MTS. As a matter of fact, up North, my own telephon e in Cranberry Portage went from $12.80 before privatization of MTS to well over $50 now for the monthly bill for basic services. I do think that the Opposition has to realize that there is merit to some small tax cuts, but you have to be careful.

Because you make a small tax cut that helps people, puts money in their pocket and they spend more, it does not necessarily mean that a huge tax cut is better, because if you follow that absurd argument and go on and on and on, you can then come to the conclusion, get rid of all taxes. Then you are back in a position where how are you going to pay for roads and for teachers and for nurs es and for doctors and for services for people. You cannot do it. So you have to be very, very careful. It may be very tempting in the short term to cut taxes massively because nobody wants a tax increase.

We all understand that, but we also have to be aware, at the same time, that taxes buy us services. They keep this society humming. If you are going to reduce them drastically, be prepared for a drastic cut in services. That part of the equation the Tories do not often talk about. I want to point out that there is nothing wrong with reasonable and moderate profits, as there is nothing wrong with reasonable and moderate taxes or, for that matter, reasonable and moderate tax cuts.

It is when we are going the route of massive tax cuts, and then when we are hemorrhaging the entire social system, that is when we run into problems. That is a direction that the Opposition appears to be advocating, nd it worries me greatly. a Besides, I do not have that blind faith that members opposite have in the virtues of the marketplace that they blindly follow, almost sometimes, I think, like children, the adulation of the American system as if this was the perfect system. There are some weaknesses in the marketplace. Marketplaces can be heartless.

We saw the Enron spectacle, and we know how many people that hurt. We have to be aware of that. To go that route blindly is extremist thinking, and I do believe Manitobans do not like that kind of extremism. Mr. Deputy Speaker, in 1999, we placed before the people of Manitoba our vision of rebuilding Manitoba, and the Tories put before the people of Manitoba their vision, and the Liberals put forth their vision. The people of Manitoba chose a direction. I think it is a direction which most Manitobans are comfort- able with. I know that throne speeches are general documents.

They are painted in broad strokes, but the same motif holds true for all our throne speeches. This is the fourth one. We are uilding on the other three. b * (15:20) The people of Manitoba told us then, as they are telling us now and th ey are telling us as

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 271 politicians all across this country, that one of the No. 1 issues, probably the No. 1 issue, is health care. We took that into consideration in 1995 and in 1999. Certainly, in 1999, we made it a central part of our platform. I think the people agreed this was the direction to go. Did we deliver? The argument is did we deliver, and I think the answer is: we did deliver. In fact, I would like to mention a few things that we have done, how we have moved ahead on health care. I will not go through all of these.

Five hundred additional training spaces for technicians, therapists, health care aides, nurses and doctors. Almost three times as many nurses will graduate this year as in 1999, and 90 percent of those are intending to stay in Manitoba. There are 15 new medical school places. We increased places for doctors. We did not decrease them as the Tories did. The number of doctors in Manitoba has grown every year since we have taken office. Over 50 health care faci lities have expanded and modernized.

The Telehealth system allows doctors and patients in northern and rural Manitoba to link with clinical specialists in Winnipeg through live video and audio feed. I know it has helped patients in Flin Flon because their families talk about it. Their loved one who is very ill, gravely ill does not need to go and see an expert in Winnipeg very often. They can do it via Telehealth, and this is extremely important. It is a lot less stress on sick people. The waiting time for cancer treatment has been cut in half, from 10 to 5 weeks.

There is streamlined access to home care and long-term care plus focus management of emergency patients. All of this helps make Manitoba a model for dealing with hallway medicine. There is better use of rural and northern hospitals by moving dental surgeries for northern children to Thompson and 350 general orthopedic surgeries to Steinbach and Ste. Anne, and so on and so on. There has been no attempt at smoke and mirrors. I think we have painted a realistic picture. I know we know where we are going; I think the people of Manitoba are with us. Notice there are no quick fixes.

There is no attempt at fixing, or if you like, improving our medicare system, our medical system by using people such as Connie Curran, as the Opposition did when they were in power, spending $4 million foolishly for someone from the United States to come in and tell us just cut back, folks. I mean, that is a silly waste of money. If we really do need American consultants, well, maybe we do. Maybe we should send them some of our consultants.

I am sure that a Man- itoba Agriculture consultant could tell them a little bit about what the American subsidies to farmers are doing to our farmers, or some con- sultant from The Pas could tell the Americans what their duties on softwood lumber are doing to the Canadian forestry industry. And yes, I should add as well, that there are 40 million or 50 million Americans who do not have medicare coverage. I think this is shameful in one of the most powerful nations in the world, that their people do not all have the services that we have in Canada, the medical services, that they are not covered.

Yes, we support the Roy Romanow blueprint. We do support Roy Romanow's view of ensuring that there is a future for medicare in this province and in this country. I think if the federal government agrees, that $15 billion over the next four or so years will go a long way in improving our health care delivery. I also know that money is not the only issue. It is more than just money and it does take creative and innovative thinking. I heard the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) the other day giving some suggestions.

Some of them made sense, but a lot of them were suggestions that suggested, you know, we can cut the waiting lines if we simply do some outsourcing, if we contract out, if we privatize. I mean, it was the thin edge of the wedge. I do not think that is the right direction to go. Now he did suggest, and I think it was a sensible suggestion, we should use CAT scans and MRI machines much more on a daily basis, use them 24 hours a day, if possible. That is a sensible suggestion, but, again, the problem there, I think, is staffing.

It is not that we would not like to do that, but we have to have available staff to do that. I think privatized health care, as the members of the Opposition seem to be hinting at fairly strongly, is not the best way to go. I notice that it is only in the most Americanized and richest province in Canada, Alberta, that they

272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 even toy with the idea. The one place where they could really afford to pa y for health care is the one place they do not want to do it. That is not because they cannot, that is because their right- wing ideology permits that. Anywhere else, we cannot afford those kinds of, I think, dangerous experiments. I would like to focus a little bit on the economy. Our focus has been on future growth. There was a 2000 Century Summit, which included leaders from business and labour, and community leaders from all across Manitoba, north and south.

I think we have a solid economic strategy. In fact, I would like to list a few things that relate to that strategy, inci- dentally guided by the Premier's Economic Advisory Council, who have recommended a set of seven sector targets. I could actually list those for you. Education comes first; research and innovation; raising and retaining investment; affordable government; immigration; community building; building on our energy advantage, which is particularly significant not only because of the importance of Hydro, but in light of the Kyoto Protocol.

Some of the great things we have done, for example, is we have balanced budgets for the third year in a row. I should point out we also have the lowest youth unemployment in the country. Manitoba followed through on prom- ised tax relief despite an economic slowdown. We have cut personal income taxes by 11.5 percent, or will have cut them by 11.5 percent by 2003. We have decreased small business and corporate income taxes. This does not sound like a radical socialist horde. This sounds like something that the Tories should be proud of.

Property taxes are lowered through a $150 increase in education, and property tax credits for both renters and owners, and the phase-out of the Education Support Levy has begun. We continue to pay down the debt by $96 million each year, making Manitoba one of only three jurisdictions in all of North America to balance their books and pay down debt this year. Our spending is responsible. Overall spending increases over the last three budgets are only half of those in the last three Tory budgets. We are spending only half as fast as the Tories were, and they accuse us of spending like drunken sailors.

Well, I think we are pretty sober on this side. Expenditures for 2001 came in $20 million under budget due to strong financial management. Mr. Speaker in the Chair So I think we have done well on the economic front. The irony is that when I look at page 11 of the alternative speech from the throne, the Tories are saying, quote: We are the only ones with the political will to lower your taxes. Is that not incredible? They had 11 years to do it, did not do it, surprise, surprise. But we did it. It is the alleged socialists that you condemn who actually did it. Is that not kind of interesting.

So the Tories obviously talk the talk, but they do not necessarily walk the walk. I think we have a real common-sense government. I think there is economic progress. I think we have all types of success in this prov- ince. We have improved education and hope for young people, and I could go on in great detail about that, how we have frozen tuition fees and so on, but I know others wish to speak as well.

We have equalized hydro rates which is another very important point, but I would like to focus, instead, a little bit on northern Manitoba, which is the region I obviously represent, that is, the Flin Flon constituency, and talk a little bit about the Northern Development Strategy. This Throne Speech, that is, the real Throne Speech, does not ignore northern Manitoba like the alternative throne speech did. We, instead, do not take northern Manitoba for granted. We know it is an important part of Manitoba. I would like to go back into a little bit of the history of the Northern Development Strategy.

In 1999, the northern MLAs met, consulted among each other and said, you know, we were really badly treated in the last 11 years by the Tory government. How do we change this around? We came up with five directions on which we had to focus, things we needed to look at: health, housing, transportation, employment and training and economic development. The strategy we came up with was a strategy

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 273 designed to improve quality of life, to expand education and employment opportunities, to increase economic opportunities and to co- ordinate services and investment in northern Manitoba. Things are changing in northern Manitoba in a positive direction despite some real challenges, particularly in the mining sector and in the forestry sector, but the face of northern Mani- toba has changed, and it has changed greatly. The Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) the other day said, and he was right, and I quote: Name a major project or dam the Tories were involved with in northern Manitoba since 1969. The answer is none. They talked when we built Limestone. They called it lemonstone, and yet we are building dams in northern Manitoba once again and notice the New Democrats are in power once again. We are building Wuskwatim. I hope all goes well. We are building Wuskwatim with Aborig- inal partners, and, in the future, there is a good likelihood that Gull will be built.

There is even a likelihood that in the far future, we will take a good look at Conawapa one more time. So the changes are positive. * (15:30) I could give you an example of what we have done in transportation in northern Manitoba because transportation is so absolutely vital. Sometimes there is only one road as the only link out. Sometimes there is only a winter road or an airport. Let me tell you what we have done with northern airports and some other transpor- tation areas. We have increased our share of capital expenditures for northern airports by over 150 percent.

That is from 2002 to 2003 over 1998 to 1999, gone from $1.6 million to $4.1 million, over 150 percent. This year the Province will spend over $4 million on capital improve- ments for northern airports. The Province currently spends over $9 million annually to operate, maintain and im- prove the 22 community airports, which is up from $6 million in '99. Transportation concerns in the North include winter roads. We have more than doubled the spending on winter roads over 1999. So those are some very positive changes. When the Tories were in power, roads in northern Manitoba were neglected.

Sometimes they spent as little as 6 percent of the capital budget in northern Manitoba. Now, I know the population is low down there, and I remember the Tory Transportation Minister arguing we should only spend as much as there are people there. So, if there is 4 percent of the population, then 4 percent of the budget. Well, that is idiculous. You have to go by need. r Let me tell you what we have done in northern Manitoba. We have increased things dramatically. We have had some great results.

With the federal government and working with the federal government, not against them, we got funding to improve the winter road system to Brochet, Lac Brochet and Tadoule Lake. For- merly, the people in those communities, partic- ularly Tadoule Lake and Lac Brochet, would buy groceries. Those groceries travelled over the winter road, and the winter road had a heavy toll on it. It was a private road, basically. So there was a toll on everything coming into the com- munity. So those people who could least afford food were paying excessive prices. Those tolls are no longer there. Those winter roads are new roads.

They are roads we have built, and we have built them largely not on ice, but around the lakes wherever possible, because we are very mindful of the future when they are going to become all- weather roads and not only linking those com- munities to the rest of the province, but also linking Nunavut in the North. That is our hope. If we take a look at specific communities, and I mentioned Brochet, Lac Brochet and Tadoule Lake already, in Granville Lake, we now have a winter road or are building one, and we had one last year. We put in a winter road to Granville Lake.

For years, Granville Lake did not have a winter road. It is one of the few communities that did not have one. Occasion- ally, there would be a hydro project that would go into Granville Lake. They would build a winter road. Then there would not be one. But we are building a winter road in Granville Lake every year. South Indian Lake, we have been spending $13 million on a road that is almost completed, a

274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 road that was mandated under the Northern Flood Agreement. In 1991, the Tories promised to take it seriously, but when they left office in '99, they had not done anything. We had to build this road because we were under a 10-year time restriction. If I take a look at Leaf Rapids, not a success story in the sense that the Rattan Mine closed down. It has created great hardship for the people there, but they are a strong people. They rallied. They did the best they could.

The Gov- ernment kicked in $2 million, $1.25 million to help stabilize the housing stocks, so people would not panic and just leave the homes. We are dealing with that, an d three-quarters of a million to help relocation. We did not desert the people in northern Manitoba. Flin Flon, if you take a good look at Flin Flon, we have improved bridges. We fixed 10A in a wonderful fashion, so when you drive into Flin Flon, you are on a decent road for once for a couple of kilometres, and, in fact, when you drive into 10A on the left, you will find a big shopping mall that was not there under the Tory regime.

Snow Lake, we are finally building the personal care home portion in the hospital. We have waited a long time, and we were getting a little impatient, but it is happening. It is being renovated, being built. We also have a new ambulance. Lynn Lake, we have upgraded the water plant. Cranberry Portage, we have sup- ported the sewage lift station, a Community Places grant for upgrading park amenities. They have a new ambulance, which is great because this summer will be the 75th anniversary of the village of Cranberry Portage, and it will be a real wingding of a party, I assure you.

So I invite all honourable members to show up the first long weekend in August. [interjection] I think, as my honourable colleague says, the best party in 2001 was also in Cranberry. Apparently, he was involved. In Sherridon, we have renovated the water plant. There is dust control for the road. Lac Brochet, as I said before, there has been an airport extension, plus there is a new modern terminal building, which is three times the size of the old one. In Brochet, we have a runway extension. We bought airport equipment, a grader, a loader and a dump truck. There is a new community hall.

I happened to be there the other day and celebrated that opening with Mayor Merasty and other dignitaries. In fact, we have spent a lot of money on the equipment in the five northern airports. In Pukatawagan, the Province has taken over, or at least supports, pays for the maintenance for about three miles, or roughly five kilometres, of road from the railway line to the reserve boundary. It was the right thing to do. Under the Tories, well, they would not touch that

section of the road. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that the Throne Speech is an excellent document. I heartily recommend its support to members opposite. I think it is the Throne Speech with a real common sense. It outlines a direction, a blueprint that is sensible and sustainable. It does not ignore the new realities, the new realities that are rapidly enlarging on our collective radar screen, and I am talking particularly about the realities of Kyoto and the Romanow Commission report.

I can tell you that, regarding Kyoto, issues such as global warming are, indeed, very real for northerners because we have had some serious problems in the last few years with winter roads. So global warming has a direct impact upon us. In fact, I could mention that one of my friends out of Snow Lake, who keeps track of when the ice breaks up in front of his house, I guess, because there is a lake there, has kept track of this situation for 30 years and puts the exact date that the ice breaks up, has noticed that over the last 30 years, there are wild swings. At first it was pretty even.

There would be maybe a week from one year to the next, but lately, the last 10 or 15 years, those swings have become more erratic and, sometimes, there is a month or six weeks' difference between when the ice breaks up one year compared to the other year. So we know there are some radical changes out there, and we know that greenhouse gas emission has something to do with it, and we cannot ignore it. We can study it to death or, like Alberta and Ralph Klein and his clones say, you

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 know, there are not enough signs. Well, there are enough signs to prove things are happening. If he does not believe it, come to northern Manitoba when there are no winter roads be- cause of warming. So we have to take those issues very seriously, and I think collectively we are. I think this Government will continue to deal with realities like that honestly and has already moved in a proactive fashion in many ways. We are also not going to snipe at the Romanow as the Tories seem to do because of their hidden privatization on health care agenda.

We are not going to pooh-pooh, as I said, or reject Kyoto just because that is part of the right- wing agenda. I know, Mr. Speaker, that I have limited time and others would like to speak, but before I end, I would like to thank my constituents for the faith they have placed in me to be their representative in this Chamber. I will continue to work on their behalf, and I am proud to be a northerner working for northerners. I wish I could give each one of my northern people a Queen's Jubilee Medal, but I cannot do that, unfortunately. I was restricted to four. I would like to point out that, together with M.P.

Bev Desjarlais, we are going to be handing out those Queen's Jubilee Medals to a number of deserving constituents in my constituency. In fact, we overlapped on one constituent that we are giving a medal to. That is Mr. Roger Carriere, Sr., who is a legendary northerner who has won more King Trapper awards than any other person in history. The four people that I have nominated for the Queen's Jubilee Medal are Jack Forsyth from Forsyth Agency in Snow Lake, three-time mayor who served on many boa rds and is a ceaseless crusader for tourism in northern Manitoba.

He is also the chairperson for the Grass River Corridor Tourist Association, Inc. I congratulate Jack and his wife, Mona. Anothe r recipient of the medal will be Mrs. Margaret Head from Cranberry Portage, but she actually now lives in Winnipeg. She is a well-respected elder, has done a lot of work in the past in Native communications and northern media. She was very instrumental, along with her husband, known as Curly Head, in building the MMF. She has had a tremendous impact on many people. She is a gracious and wise elder. She had a powerful impact on the Member for Rupertsland (M r.

Robinson) as well as on myself, and I am very delighted to call her my friend. I should point out she is a grandmother of Irving Head, the sculptor, whose sculptures were such wonderful sculptures handed out at the Indigenous Games last summer. She also, I could add, is the great- grandmother of my godson, Jeremy Head , and I should point out, Jeremy, if you ever get to read this, keep doing your homework and keep those marks up. * (15:40) Graham Craig, who is a retired optometrist in Flin Flon, is also a recipient of the medal. He is a former mayor, a wonderful gentleman.

He was my optometrist, by the way, so I can see clearly now. Graham Craig, well-known, well- liked, very active on the cultural scene and particularly active at being the spark plug behind the Flinty project, the boardwalk project, and so on. I want to congratulate him and thank him, nd also his wife, Grace. a Lastly, the fourth recipient is Mark Kolt from Flin Flon. Mark is a city solicitor, but is probably more widely known with his wife, Crystal, as the people who sparked revival and creative energy in the cu ltural sphere in Flin Flon. They are involved with anything musical or dramatic.

They are just wonderful people, and it is just too bad I could not be involved in getting Crystal a medal, as well. Mark is instrumental in the creation of such top-notch musicals as Bomber Town and Titanic. There is a huge choir in Flin Flon that draws in people from the surrounding communities as well, and Crystal and Mark are integral parts of that choir. In fact, that choir has worked together with Bramwell Tovey and the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. They have done stuff with other symphony orchestras, I believe, in Saskatoon, and members of that choir actually were in Carnegie Hall last summer.

So it shows you the level of expertise and ability that we have in Flin Flon, and Mark and Crystal Kolt are

276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 5, 2002 certainly very instrumental in that. I want to thank Mark and thank his wife, Crystal. Mr. Speaker, I conclude by saying that I am proud to be a northerner, and I salute this Throne Speech which focuses much of its attention on northern Manitoba. It does not ignore large sections of this province. This Throne Speech deals with all Manitobans. Despite our current woes in the mining and forestry sector, we will continue to see progress in northern Manitoba, and I mentioned some of the areas in which there was progress.

I will talk about northern Manitoba as an area that remains the most beautiful part of the province, but I am also keenly aware that it is that part of the province which has the greatest potential for the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I rise fully cognizant of the fact that this may or may not be my last contribution to a Throne Speech in this Chamber. I listen to the First Mini ster (Mr. Doer) very carefully when he talks about what is a suitable time, an appropriate time for an election.

Of course, he has talked on numerous occasions about four years being an appropriate time, which would, perhaps, mean that we are looking at an election this fall. He has also more laterally talked about four-and-a-half years being an appropriate time, and that is, of course, an ppropriate time. a Certainly, other governments, mine in- cluded, have taken four-and-a-half years, which would make it the spring of 2004 when the election time would call and which could mean another Throne Speech.

I just say that, that it is a distinct possibility, but in the event that that does not take place, all members will forgive me if a bit of nostalgia creeps into my comments, as this may well be the last opportunity to address it. An Honourable Member: Tell us about the cold war, Harry. Mr. Enns: Yes, I will get into that, as a matter f fact. o I do want to talk about one of the fundamental changes that I have experienced in my lifetime, going on 36 years in politics here in Manitoba, and, generally speaking, it has im- pacted our country and the world. You know, Mr.

Speaker, I must confess and acknowledge that for a good part of the time, I was a pessimist about the future of the principles that I and my party stood for. I believed to some extent about the inevitability of socialism win- ning the day. I say this, I think, with some good reason because, during th ese years, I witnessed Prairie Provinces, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Ontario falling to New Dem- ocratic Party governments.

I saw the kind of reckless spending that a true socialist by the name of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who paraded himself as a Liberal, brought upon the people of Manitoba when any concept of fiscal re- sponsibility just went out of the window. I can recall the advice that I used to get from a good colleague of mine, Sid Green, when he was an active senior New Democrat. He told me, Harry, you know, it is inevitable. I mean, sure, we are all democrats and you guys will be in power for some time.

We will come back into power, but you have to remember when we are in power, socialism moves two steps forward, and when you come into power, you do not have quite the guts; you only take one step backward. So, inevitably, we go further and further down the road of socialism, and I believed it for the better part of my life in this Legislature. It seemed to me to be inevitable. But then I can tell you–and I come to my favourite subject, the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) will appreciate–I can name a time and a name to when things changed. [interjection] No. They changed; they quite frankly changed.

I know my frien ds from the left like to ridicule American presidents, but President Ronald Reagan, when he called the state- imposed socialism that so much of the world lived under an evil empire, and expressed faith and hope that our free and open system of governments would prevail, he was ridiculed by the left, but to the surprise of the world, and certainly to me, to the surprise of everybody, it happened in an amazingly few short years. I am not going to go into the details. The simple fact is, it happened. Who would have predicted that that colossus, the Soviet empire,

December 5, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 277 would implode on itself? Who would have predicted that the Berlin Wall would have been torn down as fast as it was? Country after country, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Hungary, all of them shed state-imposed socialism. Mr. Speaker, all of a sudden, that advice that my friend Sid Green gave me many years ago, about the inevitably of socialism, no longer was there. It impacts on you and on this Government. I suppose one of the greatest compliments that a person can get, or a government can get, is when it is copied. We are seeing that around the world.

The left has left its bastion that was there when that whole socialist empire thrived, supported by our left-leaning CBC corporation, supported by the professors, the leftist professors on the campuses. That all gave a kind of substance to this inevitable move towards socialism. But, Mr. Speaker, something has changed, and that has made my last 10 years much more optimistic about where I stand in world politics. It has changed remarkably, and this group has changed remarkably.

I want to demonstrate that by simply reminding them, on such a basic issue like fiscal responsibility, balanced budget leg- islation, this is what honourable members had to say. This is all out of your records, the word of Hansard, Sir. The Premier called it: I know it is a cynical election ploy, when it was introduced. The Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) said: This is very much a public relations exercise on the part of the Government. The member from Lord Roberts said: Balanced budget legislation is trendy. The honourable Minister of Energy (Mr.

Sale) says: Balanced budget every year cannot be defended on any economic grounds. The Minister of Conservation says: The bill will not work. The Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) said: This legislation does not correspond with any economic theory known to personkind–very politically correct–either historical theory or current economic theory. * (15:50) Mr. Speaker, you said: An election gimmick. The honourable member from Flin Flon, who just a few moments ago extolled the virtues of the three balanced budgets that his government brought in, you just said that. He said: It was created for election purposes.

This bill is not based on common sense. When was he speaking honestly and truthfully, and what is he defending now? The honourable member from Dauphin: It is good window dressing, but when you look right into the bill it becomes a sham. This bi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-4-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 4th hansardpdf 07.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	558b3bfe2519285db489949677309dd353c91259

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