Manitoba Committee Hansard — 25 April 1978 (Rules of the House Committee, Sitting 1, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-rh1

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Le gislative Assembly of Manitoba PROCEEDINGS OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON RULES OF THE HOUSE TUESDAY, April 25, 1978, 10:00 a.m. Printed by P.N. Crosbie- Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 Time: 10:00 a.m. VIR. CHAIRMAN, Hon. Harry E. Graham: Gentlemen, I believe all members are present. I think we 1ave a committee of nine. I notice that all members are here. I suppose one of the first things we ;hould do is - I think in the past the quorum has been five has it not? VIR. GREEN: We haven't bothered to check , Mr. Chairman. VIR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to establish a quorum for this type of meeting or not? VIR. GREEN: We have a quorum of half the members of the committee I think the rules say. VIR. CHAIRMAN: Would somebody move we establish a quorum of five.

This meeting has been :a lied because I have received two or three applications. One is an application by Winnipeg Videon _imited, an application to broadcast on a live basis the audio portion of the legislative proceedings. I >elieve we have two or three people here who would like to make presentations to the committee. �ould those people indicate, could you state your name. III R. SID BOYLING: Sid Boyling of Winnipeg Videon. III R. CHAIRMAN: Have we any others? III R. STEVE HALINDA: Steve Halinda, CBC, Winnipeg. III R. CHAIRMAN: Any others? MR.

MARK STEFANSON: Mark Stefanson from the Legislative Press Gallery Association. iii R. CHAIRMAN: We have three people that would like to make presentations. How would you like o proceed with this? Mr. Green. iii R. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I believe that we should start from where we are and see whether there sa problem.

My understanding is that the members of this Legislative Assembly, or of the Legislative �ssembly, have agreed - and I don't know that there's been any change in that- that we have no >bjection to the electronic media, the visual media, doing whatever journalistic work they want to do n the Legislative Assembly, that we have never expressed fears about editing, that we have never !Xpressed fears about who they are going to televise and how much time they are going to give to >ther people.

In that regard, we have said that they will be able to exercise the same type of ournalistic wisdom, or lack of wisdom, as is done by the newspapers and radio and that we have no ntention of trying to edit or limit their proceedings. What we have said is that they should get together and tell us how they intend, because of the !quipment involved, to do this in the Assembly and at their expense. That is basically where the :ommittee stands. If we are going to hear presentations, I think that they should direct themselves to that.

I'm not nterested in hearing presentations which say, "Don't worry; we're not going to film you when you've rot your feet on the desk. " As far as I'm concerned, they can film me when my feet are on the desk or vherever they are and we have all, I think unanimously, come to that conclusion.

So that there is no nisunderstanding, the Legislative Assembly, the previous one- and I don't know that there's any :hange - the Speaker made that communication to the media, if I'm correct, that we have never 1xpressed concern as to who was going to get the coverage or how they are going to be fair or vhether they are going to take people in postures which are unflattering, that has never been a :oncern of members. What we were concerned with is how the equipment is going to get into the 1allery.

We have been concerned with lights shining on us; we have been concerned with heat that is 1enerated by such lights and I would hope that if we are going to hear briefs - and I ask the ionourable the House Leader whether his memory and mine coincides on this- if we are going to 1ear briefs, that they do not waste their time with the supposed suggestion that we are worried about vhat they televise or what coverage we get.

We, as politicians, no doubt would like to have better :overage than worst coverage but we know that that is in the hands of the press and we have no 1tention of changing that or interfering with that. nR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jorgenson. �R. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, one thing further to what Mr. Green has said. His memory is not :tulty. The original rule that we made, or the position that we took, we were going to make no 1istinction between one form of communication as opposed to another.

I have a letter from CKY-TV 1hich indicates - I think they're basing their pre sentation on an erroneous assumption - the econd paragraph of their letter states, "The govern �ent provides a sound system in the House but 1 I

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 permits the radio media to air live pick up from the floor of the House useable in its entirety or in tl form of excerpts." We didn't provide that. it was the radio people that paid for the cost of installatia We simply provide the physical facility, that's all. They paid for the cost of making those installatior What we have suggested is that if the television stations, or the Videon, or whoever, wants to come here and film they do so at their own expense, not at taxpayers' expense.

I want to make that ve clear and if that's going to be the burden of the presentation by the television people then they' wasting their time as far as I'm concerned because they make a suggestion here that to accompli1 this: "the government will bear the original cost - lighting, cameras, switching personnel. Tl Manitoba Telephone System, a government agency, will be required to microwave the signal to ar television station requesting it and to the headquarters of CATV systems." I'll tell them right now th as far as I'm concerned, they pay for the cost of their own installations.

We'll provide them with physical facility and we want to know, as Mr. Green has suggested, what that will consist of. That's� we want to know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I have looked back over whatever reports were available to me anc believe that the last time this issue was dealt with by the Rules Committee was in 19 71 or 1972 and that time it was indicated that if there were any applications the Rules Committee would deal wi· them at that time. So I assume from that that it did not fall within the realm of the Speaker to make ar decisions so that is why this Rules Committee has been called. 'MR.

JORGENSON: That's all we want to hear application. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Mr. Green. MR. GREEN: Yes, but Mr. Chairman, just so that there is no misunderstanding about it, we d indicate that we were prepared to be televised, that the concern was where they are going to put tt cameras in the gallery and the amount of heat, etc., etc., so that -(In terjection)- Yes, how the intended to do it so that we could approve of that.

There was never, at least in the last five years, ar opposition by the members of the Legislature to be covered journalistically by the media, t� television as distinct from any other journalistic coverage. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well is it then possible to deal with the application of Winnipeg Videon and we deal with that one first. Is that agreeable? (Agreed) Perhaps we can call Mr. Boyling. MR. SID BOYLING: Gentlemen of the Standing Committee. My name is Sid Boyling, VicE president and General Manager of Winnipeg Videon Limited.

Winnipeg Videon Limited is licensed by the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecorr munications Commission to service by Cable T.V. the Winnipeg area west of the Red River. OL ultimate objective is to carry live the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly and, depending upo the circumstances, repeats of these broadcasts. We appreciate that video coverage is not available to date so our proposal is for permission to usE at no cost, the present Legislature audio service on Videon's cable system Channel 7. Videon ha applied to the CRTC for permission to carry the audio portion of the Legislative Assembly.

In m akin our application, we do not consider this service in the category of news but rather information. This i in line with our present Community Channel 13 which policy is dedicated to carrying informatio created and presented by the people of Winnipeg. The new use of Channel 7 audio will be to supply to audio unedited content of the Legislativ Assembly as created by the Provincial Government. This cabling will be the electronic audio Hansar -no comments, no deletions, substitution, no judgments of emphasis.

We feel it will provide anothe service to the people, the opportunity to hear the Assembly as if in person. Ultimately, we wou Id hope that we wi 11 see the day when private and government bodies wi 11 unit to bring the people closer to their elected representatives by unedited, live cable televise• broadcasts. We look forward to the day when the Provincial Government will regularly originate b television the proceedings of the House.

We hope the Manitoba Telephone System will deliver, fre of charge, the proceedings to the c able system head-end and that Videon Cable T.V. should the1 deliver this service at no additional charge to the subscribers. This project is the electronic extensio1 to modern day use of Hansard. We are asking to receive free the audio of the Legislative Assembl and until other agreements are finalized, we will arrange our own delivery to Videon's cable system! head-end.

We have been recently informed that the CRTC proposes to hear our application to program thi information on either May 8th or 9th in Calgary. lt would be an advantage to our May 8/9tl presentation if we could state your decision. We would welcome the opportunity to answer any questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any members of committee who would like to ask questions? Mr. Fo� MR. PETER FOX: Mr. Boyling, did you at all have any communications with the Press Gallery ir respect to .. . 2

KUieS UT I ne MOUSe Tuesday, April 25, 1978 �R. BOYLING: No. �R. FOX: You didn't. �R. BOYLING: We don't consider this as a news facet. We have one community channel and we're pplying for a second community channel. The principle of our community channel is Channel 13 is ihere the people originate and control the content. The second channel that we're applying for is ihere the people will receive information without any editing or any control by the cable company. If fe broadcast the proceedings of the Legislature, it would be in its entirety. If we do the City Council, : would be the same.

If we cover a convention, it would be in the same manner. In one case the people 1riginate and control it; in the second case the people would have complete access to the entire 1roceedings. �R. FOX: You realize, of course, that the Legislative Assembly has to deal with a vehicle whereby it 1rovides these facilities. Through custom and usage, it's always been the Press Gallery Association hat has dealt with this kind of broadcasting of whatever took place outside of Hansard.

What you are uggesting would mean that it would open the door to other organizations all because they are not 1ews coverage but they are for a special purpose. �R. BOYLING: An information service. nR. FOX: That's true, so you're either going to have to go through the vehicle that we have selected .s information from the Legislative Assembly or else it means that we have to, as members of the .egislative Assembly, try to accommodate maybe a hundred different organizations for information 1urposes. III R.

BOYLING: I question the validity of your argument because the one point we are basing it on is hat we are an information source in the category of Hansard insofar as content goes. lt's not a matter 1f other vehicles of expression. There's no control by the medium in this case. nR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green. nR. GREEN: Mr. Boyling, you are comparing it with Hansard. Hansard is the official written 1ublication of the Legislative Assembly done by the Assembly.

Are you proposing to us that we have 1 visual Hansard in addition to our written Hansard or are you wanting to disseminate on your private :hannel a program material -which I think is very admirable, I see nothing wrong with it -but is it he same as Hansard? nR. BOYLING: Yes, it will be exactly the same as Hansard, to answer your first question. nR. GREEN: All right. May 1 ask you, I have seen relatively compact portable cameras that a person :ould sit in the gallery with, focus on whomever he wishes and also pick up sound and then play it on elevision.

Is this an invention that is only in my imagination or is it possible? nR. BOYLING: No, I'm not talking about the invention; I'm talking about the technique. nR. GREEN: Well, I'm asking you whether there is a tee technique which would permit somebody rom your station to sit in the Press Gallery with a relatively compact camera and pick up sound and hen disseminate it on television. III R. BOYLING: As a non-technical man, I would agree with you, as a non-technical man. nR. GREEN: What you're saying is that you agree with me . nR. BOYLING: To the best of my knowledge. nR.

GREEN: ... that neither of us knows anything about it. nR. BOYLING: Right, speaking for myself. nR. GREEN: I see. IIR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steen. IIR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Boyling, your company currently is covering the City Council neetings? 3

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 MR. BOVLING: Yes. MR. STEEN: Do they cover the City Council meetings in their entirety and show the Coun< meeting in its entirety on the Sunday mornings? MR. BOVLING: Yes. MR. STEEN: You are covering the House of Commons, do you cover the . MR. BOVLING: No, no we don't cover the House of Commons. MR. STEEN: Well, which outlet ... MR. BOVLING: That would be Greater Winnipeg Cablevision on the other side. MR. STEEN: They cover the House of Commons. MR. BOVLING: I've never seen their broadcast. MR. STEEN: Oh, so you're not familiar with the . MR.

BOVLING: No, my understanding is that they cover the entire Question and Answer Peric which is not what I'm talking about. MR. STEEN: You are talking about covering the total proceedings, Committee of Supply, etc MR. BOVLING: Whatever is in the Legislative Assembly made available to us. If there are t111 simultaneous meetings ... MR. STEEN: And playing it back the following day to the public? MR. BOVLING: No, our application is to do it live. MR. STEEN: To do it live. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman, again, perhaps I should indicate to this gentleman that there is r disposition on this committee to refuse what you are suggesting, either live, dead edited or unedite so given the· understanding that the whole is equal to the sum of its parts you can do any one of the! things if you will tell us how you intend to do it.

To give you an example, although I can't speak for the committee on this, from my point of vie' this afternoon, if one of your people sat in our press gallery with a camera which was portable, ar didn't hit the other journalists over the head and knock them out, I would have no objection to yo1 doing it this afternoon. What do you need from us which is different from what I have just said MR. BOVLING: I don't agree with your concept. MR. GREEN: Yes, well what do you suggest should be done because our committee has r objection, to my knowledge, to either the whole or part of what you are suggesting.

What do you wa1 from us in order to enable you to do this, because we have expressed, in the past, a distin unwillingness to give you anything. Now, what do you want from us? MR. BOVLING: We would like to pick up the audio system from the Legislative Assembly. MR. GREEN: What do we have to do to enable them to do that? MR. FOX: We don't have to do anything. The radio people installed the system, all they have to do discuss it with them. That was my first question, whether they had communications with the people the press gallery who had radio connections. MR.

JORGENSON: There are radio jacks in the gallery, are there not? MR. BOVLING: My understanding was, and so I'm obviously in error, that there was an aud system used by the Legislative Assembly to record the Hansard, so it's not controlled by tt government in any way. 4

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 MR. JORGENSON: There are jacks in the gallery and in the press room where the reporters plug in their own machines and get the feed-off from the Legislative Assembly, that's all. MR. BOYLING: And that's the only system? MR. GREEN: Will they let you plug it in? Have you asked them? MR. BOYLING: I haven't applied to them because I understood the procedure, and my background understanding was that this was a system controlled by the ... MR. GREEN: If they let you put in the plug, what else do you need? MR. BOYLING: I think we need your permission. MR.

GREEN: Well, if all you want is to put in the plug, then you have my permission. I don't know if that's good enough, but you have my permission to put in a plug. MR. BOYLING: You are talking technically to me again. What I want is permission to broadcast in its entirety. MR. GREEN: Sir, I cannot help but do what I'm doing because we have never denied the concept of what you are suggesting, we have merely said, "You let us know how you are going to do it," so that I am certain that my friend, the Member for Morris, the House Leader, doesn't get a sunburn or sweat all day from the lights.

I am concerned with him, and that comes from self-interest, because what applies to him applies to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, gentlemen, is there a consensus? There is no objection. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know what this gentleman needs of us, other than the puttingin of a plug, if that's all he needs then I'm prepared to move that he put in the plug . MR. JORGENSON: The plugs are there, he just simply has to get permission from the press gallery, I would think, to use the jacks. As far as this committee is concerned we have no objection. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Hearing no objection I would assume then that the problem is one of nothing more than approval from the press gallery. MR. JORGENSON: There are a couple of other representations to be heard, Mr. Chairman, don't jump the gun we'll hear them first. MR. GREEN: That's right, Mr. Chairman, I was just indicating that we have not objected to this type Df request in the past. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, both Mr. Green and Mr.

Jorgenson have stated that they don't disagree in principle with the concept, but they have both said we would like to know whether increased lighting is going to take place; how much space, perhaps, in the Speaker's gallery is going to be occupied by camera crews; and if they are going to do it live, is it going to be transmitted by battery or by cable, or how? Are you going to have to run special cables from the gallery to the outside of the building, and how are you going to transmit to your station, and so on? Before passing approval, I think we would want to know what the mechanical aspect of the subject is.

The two gentlemen that have spoken earlier have said that they don't disagree with the concept, but tell us what the mechanical problems are before you go ahead and get permission. MR. JORGENSON: The original decision of the committee was that we had no objections to the electronic media filming in the Legislative Chamber, providing that it did not interfere with the normal operation of the Chamber.

What we want from your people is simply a letter outlining the technical installation that you propose so that we can have a look at that and make a decision as to whether or not this committee is going to allow you to continue. If it interferes in any way, and that is the only c:oncern we have, then we would perhaps suggest modifications. If it does not interfere with the operations of the Legislative Chamber then I see no difficulty.

But we have suggested on several occasions, to the electronic media, to the television people, that the proper route for them to follow is to submit a written application before this committee outlining the technical installation. They have ::: hosen not to do that, for what reason I do not know, but again I suggest to you that the course for you to follow is simply to give us a technical outline of your installations so that we can judge it on that oasis. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kovnats. 5

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Boyling I'm sure that it is your intention to film the proceedings in tt Legislature because of the excitement and all of the nice things that happen in the Legislatil Assembly. Would you have any aversions to, well particularly once it gets off the ground and it competing in the ratings, the Neilson ratings, with Archie Bunker and shows of that nature, wou you have any aversions to other television companies - CBC, CTV or others - coming into tt Legislature also to film the proceedings.

And I throw this out to the other gentlemen on this grou are we just starting a horror story inasmuch as we have one, and then we will have more, and tt lighting will be more complex. Would you have any aversions to other television companies comin in and filming the proceedings, or are you asking for an exclusive? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. I think we're getting a little off base. What we ha\ here is an application purely for the audio portion. lt involves no cameras whatsoever. MR. KOVNATS: I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman, it's been brought up before about cameras, and I woul like to know his views on cameras also, and iighting, because it will be very complex. lt's not just on company we're talking to at this point, it'll be more. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, gentlemen, would you prefer to hear further presentations? MR. FOX: Could we not have an answer from Mr. Boyling on this question? MR. CHAIRMAN: Certainly. MR. BOYLING: I would like to read just one line out of my application. "Our proposal is fc permission to use the audio service. " That's all that we're applying for today, so it has no relati� bearing.

I'm prepared to speak to the concept of televised broadcasting, which is not consistent wit the usual practice, but just to speak to our own application, it's for the audio only. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, if I could ask Mr. Boyling aq uestion. lt follows up, I think, from wh1 Mr. Jorgenson was saying, that if Mr. Boyling plugs in his plug at the building end, where does th wire go from there? MR. BOYLING: To our head end at St. Norbert. MR. WALDING: And who will be responsible for taking the wire out of t he building and to whereve you take it? MR.

BOYLING: Well, we said we would assume that responsibility at the present time. We wer discussing other agreements for delivery, but until other arrangements are finalized we will arrang our own delivery to Videon Cable System's head end. MR. WALDING: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Boyling. Next on the list, I believe, is Mr. Halinda MR. HALINDA: Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, my name is Steve Halinda; I'm the new director at CBC Winnipeg. Mr.

Chairman, I have no other submission other than the letter that has been mailed to your officE I understand copies have been distributed to all members of the Committee. I understand the Pres Gallery Association has also dealt with this matter in brief. What we in effect are proposing is a experiment which would involve portable electronic television equipment, which in our case woul' require no additional lighting or microphones, but which would require enough space for a tripo' and two technicians at the west end of the press gallery, or on the main floor if you so decide.

A portable RCA TK-76 camera would be used to record the video and a sound pick-up would b employed or connected to the feed service now provided radio in the gallery. We would be willing to conduct this experiment at any time during the current session. If th experiment is found to be satisfactory to both the House Committee and ourselves, in terms c quality, we would follow up the experiment with a meeting to ensure distribution of the material t' stations requesting same.

In other words, we are not seeking an exclusive service. lt is in this area c distribution, however, that we feel the Government Information Services Department should becom involved. Once again, I should mention that if the experiment proves successful and all parties agree, w would make every effort to have our equipment in place, but we could not guarantee anyone that sai1 equipment will be available every single day of the session, and that's because of any possibl· technical problems that we may encounter. I would be most happy to answer any of your questions, gentlemen. 6

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 �R. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green. IIR. GREEN: Mr. Halinda, this looks like the kind of thing that we hoped would come about, at least sI read it- I want to make sure. Have you spoken to the press gallery as to whether they're going to 'e annoyed with a tripod at the west end of the press gallery? �R. HALINDA: I haven't communicated directly with them, however, the member of our news lepartment who belongs to the Press Gallery Association informed me that there might be some 'bjection from the Press Gallery Association, so I am awaiting their presentation as well. �R.

GREEN: You see, when the press gallery is full, it's pretty full. Looking up, you see them all itting there, and the question of the tripods and cameras is going to be some problem to them. I tonder whether there are other locations - for instance, if we did some work and partitioned some pace in the centre of the Speaker's gallery - and I'm not suggesting that this will happen, I'm just xploring alternatives - maybe everybody will switch their seats - the seats are terrible. I'm tondering whether there is an alternative to the press gallery, and I'd be willing just to talk about it.

I an't certain I: make any commitment. But if there was a space in the centre of the Speaker's gallery thich we partitioned off and moved out the step seats- I presume that it could be done from that rea. And another question which is very important, because one of the things that this Committee till be worried about, if past experience is any indicator, is that we will not want to do it for one; we till want to do it in such a way that anybody who is legitimately in the business of televising, and I uess there are as many as four stations who might say that they qualify under that at the present me.

Is there a way in which you people could co-operate so that we're dealing with one camera, or at 1ost two cameras, in a space that can handle that? Or, in the alternative, and knowing that we do ,ave a problem essentially with logistics, can your CBC reporters go in with small portable cameras tithout the tripod, and just take the scenes that they like and put them as film clips? Could you start tith that instead of tripods? IIR. HALINDA: To the first question, Mr.

Green, there has been a preliminary test conducted on 'ne of the loges to the west of the Speaker's Chair, and it is an advantageous location because it's a ttle higher and if every member rises to speak then we could conceivably have an unobstructed view ,f every member of the House. I should qualify the production involved in this operation. This is not an extravagant television ffort. What we are concerned with most of all, is first of all to get your interest rekindled in television 1 the House.

The first step, we feel, would be a service which we would like to be a part of, a service 'roviding television news clips, not only to ourselves, but to all stations in the province, of actual lebates in the House. But this will in no way resemble what is being done in Ottawa, or in other .egislatures across the country. In respect to large commitments, commitments of funds, I am afraid that the precedent has been et in many regions now, or many provinces, where governments have insisted on taking over control ,f the operation and the equipment.

I know that that isn't the case here, because four or five years ago 1at was one of the arguments, that the television stations should come up with the capital and install 1e equipment if it met with House approval. I don't think any television station in Canada today, or etwork, is going to approach you and say, "We want to install the cameras and the lights." I think 1at's out of the question. What we are proposing is, first of all, we would like your permission to conduct the experiment.

If te find that the standards are acceptable to broadcast then we would be most agreeable to a joint ffort with Government Information Services where we would do the actual shooting and the ecording, Government Information Services would take a feed and then distribute as they see fit. �R. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether Mr. Halinda has directed himself to my question. 'erhaps I ramble too much. I am asking why you couldn't do that with a non-tripod, with a straight mtable camera.

Take a few clips to see how they look, and then CTV can come in with a little mtable and do exactly the same thing during Question Period. IIR. HALINDA: Various reasons, Mr. Green. We would like to, for the sake of the continuity for elevision production, we would want to see how one camera is going to be able to pan from one side 1f the Chamber to the other in response to a question. We want to see how the heat factor in the room ;; going to involve the calibre of the picture when there are so many bodies in a room the heat rises lramatically and this affects the quality of your picture.

This is the kind of test we'd like to conduct, as o�ell as the synchronization of the House sound with the visual. �R. GREEN: But if the entire thing was a problem because of the tripods . �R. HALINDA: Oh, I see your point. ,R. GREEN: ... why couldn't you do this . 7

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 MR. HALINDA: Well, we'll have to await the Press Gallery Association presentation because I'm ne familiar with .. MR. GREEN: Well, can I ask you a hypothetical question, which is illegal in the House, but we do anyway. What if the tripods is the entire problem, what if people said, "Well, if you can get up ther with a camera that's small enough so that you can carry it through the doors to stand behind th journalists and do your filming and that doesn't prevent anybody else from doing the same thing would that be of no value as an experiment? MR.

HALINDA: No, it would be of value as an experiment, however, how many people would yo permit in the House to conduct this kind of experiment? MR. GREEN: Well, I count a maximum of, as I understand it and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, maximum of four. Just as we have, you know, we have the Winnipeg Free Press, the Winnipeg Tribun and there are other members of the Press Gallery that when it's full, it's full. The Press Gallery wi have to deal with the question as to how many people but I suppose the eligible ones are CBC, CK� Channel 9- not cable 9- and Channel 13, is it?

Those are the four that one would expect may b there from time to time a camera. MR. HALINDA: Well, I understand there is an arrangement in the Alberta House where they hav stands behind the Speaker's Chair elevated and each station may bring in a camera and mount it o the stand and shoot from that position. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, may I direct Mr. Halinda to a problem which I, for the moment, think i insoluble but which I merely bring to his attention. If the television people could get together the could probably have higher quality work with one stationed camera.

Well, let's assume the best woul be with one but I, having some professional pride myself, know the problem of trying to say that on will do the job and who will use it, etc. So I know that you have a problem with that kind of suggestior That would probably give you the best technical result and the worst journalistic result in terms of journalist's imagination. The best would be for everybody to put in whatever equipment that the want but that's impossible because we just don't have physically the space.

What we wanted from th media is for them to solve this difficulty and it seems to me that the solution that you suggest has problem from the point of view of the tripods and that's something that if the media could settle, think you'd have no problem with us. If the media can't settle that, then I would be prepared to say thE if they could come in -I am talking now just as one member-that if they could come in to the pres gallery with a portable camera and not hit anybody over the head with it, thatthey could do just as we as the other media. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, Mr.

Green, perhaps we may have some further enlightenment on that fror the Press Gallery themselves when we hear the press. Mr. Walding. MR. WALDING: If I can make one suggestion, maybe put it in the form of a question, Mr. Chairmar I was just speaking to Mr. Fox, the past Speaker here, about it. You probably are aware that th· Speaker comes into his Chair through some blue curtains at the back there and goes out the opposit• way. He tells me that there's about three or four feet at the side.

Would there be any objection, an problem involved in putting a tripod in behind the curtains there and poking the lens out through th curtain? That way, anyone speaking to the Speaker would also be speaking to your camera. A MEM BER: We've already looked at that. MR. GREEN: And you would be invisible. MR. HALINDA: At this point, we'll try anything. MR. WALDING: Will you go and have a look at it. MR. HALINDA: We will have a look at it . MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe Mr. Walding that has been looked at. MR.

HALINDA: I should add though, I'm not a cameraman but I'm sure that the cameraman m us have an unobstructed view of the proceedings. You're not talking about the 18 th century lens stick in! out the red curtain, because that wouldn't work. I mean, he must have an unobstructed view to be abl1 to swing the camera lens from side to side. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions of Mr. Halinda? Hearing none, perhaps we ca1 now hear from the Press Gallery. 8

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 IR. MARK STEFANSON: Mr. Chairman, Members of the House Rules Committee, first of all let me tate that this presentation by the Association primarily concerns the application by the CBC and as •e never fully discussed, or never discussed at all, the application by Winnipeg Videon. I would like to read to you three resolutions that the Association passed at a special meeting on .pril 19 th. I think they clearly state our position on the application by the CBC to set up a television amera in the Legislature.

The first motion: That the Gallery supports in principle the televised coverage of the Legislature roceedings. This was carried unanimously by the Association. The second: That the Gallery go on record as insisting that any T.V. signal provided from the egislature be available to any broadcast outlet in the province. That was also carried unanimously. The third motion: That if the camera for televising the Legislature has to go into the press gallery, assage not be blocked and that any seat lost be taken from the TV stations and not from the print or 'l.dio reporters. That was also carried unanimously.

I think those three motions clearly state our position on this question of the CBC's application for �levision camera in the House. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have. IR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Green. IR. GREEN: Yes, I think that with respect to items No. 1 and 2, there's no problem. With respect to lo. 3, what will the Press Gallery say if we immediateiV receive an application from Channel9 and :hannel 7 and we're talking about three tripods, not one tripod? IR. STEFANSON: Well' there's no possible way I can see how they could accommodate it. IR. GREEN: All right.

Have you people directed yourselves to that problem because we want to try ) solve this problem but we do not see, in the long term, that there's going to be any possibility of us iving a facility to one television outlet which is not available to the others and, therefore, the only roblem with this particular request is that we believe- perhaps wrongly, but we believe- that if the :se has it, CTV will want it and the Global will want it and we do not see how we can choose one over 1e other. MR.

STEFANSON: I believe the CBC indicated though in their application that they are willing to mvide the tape to the other outlets through the facilities of the Information Services. IR. GREEN: Yes, but you know, 1'1"'1 not really worried about the cost to the public. I do not know 1hether you have asked the other outlets whether they are prepared to have their coverage of the egislative Assembly done under the auspices of the CBC. IR. STEFANSON: Well, I would imagine that letters were sent out by the House Rules Committee )r any other outlet to make a presentation here.

I could be wrong on that but I would imagine that if 1ey have strong objections, they'd be here this morning to register them. IR. GREEN: Well, if you're telling me ... IIR. STEFANSON: I could be totally wrong on that assumption but . III R. GREEN: Well, if you're telling me, and you are the representative of the Press Gallery, that the 'ress Gallery sees no problem with this, in dealing with the CBC on this suggestion that they be the :overage, then we'll have to certainly consider that. I find that to be astonishing. IIR.

STEFANSON: Well, basically, the point of the Association, the entire question revolves around ;pace limitations. The whole question is space limitations. IIR. GREEN: Can you tell me what's behind the Press Gallery? Where you people are sitting in the 'press Gallery, there's a wall behind you. What's behind that wall? IIR. STEFANSON: That's the corridor. That's a solid wall. IIR. JORGENSON: We did examine that . We found there was one problem there. I think th t the nain structure comes right in behind that wall. We had considered at one time knocking outthat wall tnd enlarging the gallery.

Our engineers in the Public Works Department said it was not possible lecause of the fact that the main support for the building comes right behind that wall, so it would be lifficult to do that. I rather suspect that there are, following the suggestion made by Mr. Halinda, or a comment made lY Mr. Halinda about Alberta, there might be a possibility of erecting platforms on either side of the �hamber - I don't know. Perhaps we should have somebody have a look at it to see what can be lone.

And if the cameras can be accommodated somewhere near the loges, that may be one way that he cameras could be placed in the Chamber without interfering with the operations of the Chamber. 9

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 But that's something that would have to be determined, and I think determined not just by this Rule Committee, but by the media themselves, the Press Gallery and the television people. I think that the perhaps should get together, maybe with the engineers, so the Public Works people could determin just what can be done. I'm sure the government or the House will be quite happy to co-operate a much as possible to facilitate the installation and operation of cameras in the House. I repeat, as Mr.

Green has said, we have no objections in principle to the televising th proceedings in the House. We just want to make sure that it does not interfere, that it doesn dominate the House and replace the House. MR. STEFANS ON: May I respond to that, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. MR. STEFANSON: We had some preliminary discussions, at least myself and the representativ• here for the CBC about another location for the camera, aside from placing it above the Speaker' Chair where the Press Gallery sits, and we never heard anything conclusive from the CBC, if tha would be agreeable to them.

That would be left of the Speaker's Chair, and I believe the curtain would be separated, and there may be some need- I don't know- to elevate the camera, but that i something I guess that will have to be pursued further. MR. JORGENSON: May I suggest that the CBC bring their technical people over here, their cam en people, look at potential sites or locations for those cameras, and then in conjunction with our Publil Works people and the Press Gallery, perhaps something can be worked out. MR.

STEFANS ON: But I think the Association feels that- as I said in the Motions that were state< - that we have no objection to it whatsoever. All we're concerned about is the seating arrangemen1 that it doesn't infringe upon seating capacity, because space limitations are prevalent in the Pres: Gallery, and that's the primary concern. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Slake. MR.

BLAKE: Apart from the physical problem of getting the cameras in the Press Gallery, as a pres: person, what does this do to the concentration that you may require on the proceedings of the House with a camera whirring away beside you, or somebody moving around jockeying for position. Woulc this have a disturbing effect on the Press Gallery as we have known it? MR. STEFANSON: Well, I would have to answer that on my personal basis. I can't see any problem You know, that's my own personal feeling. I don't see any problems because reporters are used tc working in noise. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Stefanson, I believe your third Motion from your Press Gallery Association wa! that if the TV was to be located in the Press Gallery, the space that they would occupy would be at thE expense of TV space allotted. Correct? MR. STEFANS ON: Correct. MR. STEEN: What is the formula that you use now. How much space does the TV have in relation t• radio and the written press? MR. STEFANSON: The written press, the newspapers, have two seats. The television stations hav• two seats and the radio stations have one seat. MR. STEEN: So each newspaper is permitted two seats? MR. STEFANSO N: That's correct. MR.

STEEN: And each radio station, one seat. And each TV station, two seats. And with th1 numbers of outlets in Winnipeg, and following that formula, you would be over your 13 or 14 capacity So how do you determine who gets into the Press Gallery, first come first served basis? MR. STEFANSO N: Yes and no.

We had discussions earlier this year before the Session started, i we should have a hard and fast rule, and we decided primarily, nothing hard and fast, that commor sense shou Id prevai I, and if there was any problem in respect to seating arrangements, that we wou I< have spare seats in the vestibules to the right and left of the Press Gallery and we could move chairs ir at a moment's notice in case there were quite a few reporters that turned out, more than the 13 or 1• that the Gallery can accommodate. 10

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 �R. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions of Mr. Stefanson? Hearing none, thank you very much. Gentlemen, I would like to refer you to a letter of April 20-l believe you have copies, from CKY -I 1 on't think we have anyone from CKY here, but I believe they were informed of this meeting. I think 1e letter is self-explanatory. �R. FOX: In respect to the letter from CKY, there is one erroneous concept in here, and that is that !OVernment provides a sound system in the House which permits radio media to air live pick-ups.

I hink we already expressed that that was not the case, and consequently the rest of what is suggested 1 the letter also then goes on a wrong premise. �R. CHAIRMAN: I believe the indication in the letter from CKY is basically- if I'm correct- they lo not want to expend great sums of money at all. They were hoping that government would pick it !p. Well, gentlemen, you've heard the presentations that we've had so far. Would you care to deal l'ith those two items now, or do you want to go through the other two items that are on the agenda irst? �R. JORGENSON: There is no change, Mr.

Chairman, in the position that we've taken in the past. Ve still want an application outlining their technical installation. They have failed to do that up to this 10int, so therefore there's nothing to consider. IIR. GREEN: If the Committee is satisfied that the position of the CBC is agreeable and does not vork a discrimination against the other stations, I have no objection to them going in there with a ripod and filming. I mean, there is some difference - I agree with Mr.

Jorgenson that essentially ve've said the same thing - I find it difficult to believe that we are going to solve this problem by >ermitting one television company to go in there with a tripod. But if that is agreeable, to put a tripod n the Press Gallery, and the Press Gallery will arrange the seating, then I am skeptical should but I'm 10t entirely sure that Mr. Jorgenson foreclose what they are saying.

Okay, there will be a tripod in the >ress gallery, there will be no additional lights, there will be no sound, there are no facilities required. f that's okay with the media and we are not told that we are discriminating, then perhaps we should �ntertain that. III R. CHAIRMAN: Would you then be prepared to make a motion to allow this experiment to >roceed? nR. GREEN: I would like to know whether I am saying anything that other members of the �ommittee find objectionable. I think that I would like to do that, yes.

However, I would like to know vhether indeed it's true, and I think that we have some responsibility to find out, that Global, and �KY, and Channel 13, do not demand equal status which means four tripods, which is impossible. nR. STEEN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Green's suggestion is an excellent one but I think that ve owe it to the members of the Legislature to have in writing a plan of action from CBC as well as �ome assurance in writing from them that their tapings will be available to the other news media.

Also I would like to know where the camera is going to be, if it's going to be in the press gallery, do >eople like Mr. Stefanson, representing the Press Gallery Association, have they granted space for hem, and are they satisfied, and I think CBC should give us something in writing outlining that they 1ave talked to all parties concerned and have the permision of all parties to proceed and act on their >I an of action, and give it to you as the Speaker, so that you have something in writing as to what their :ommitment will be to the members of the House.

I don't think that we can just go along and say that ve have heard their presentation and bang, you can have it, start this afternoon. I think that you as )peaker, should have something in writing as to what their plan of action should be. �R. FOX: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to go along with the concept that the experiment be tried. I >nly have one reservation and that is in the second page of the CBC's presentation and that is the 1istribution of the material to stations requesting same.

They indicate they would like to have a neeting after they've tried it and then get the Government Information Services department involved n the distribution. I think that is not what we originally had intended and that is one of t he parts of the �xperiment I would like to have excluded. III R. CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, I know it's highly irregular, but is it possible for the Chairman to make me or two contributions to this? I can say that earlier, when this matter first came up, I approached vlr. Stefanson and we did take a look at the press gallery.

At that time it appeared as though there may >e two or three seats that would be taken out of the one end of the press gallery. We then looked for an ilternate location that would be suitable, and on the left of the Speaker's chair, behind the curtains in he doorway, if that doorway was used, that would provide about four to five feet of space for the ;etting up of a camera at the left of the Speaker's chair. lt does give them opportunity to cover the m tire floor area of the Chamber; I think that would be probably a suitable location for an experiment o take place. And again I say, an experiment. 11

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 One of the problems that has concerned me, is the fact that we have always been concerned abc providing a feed to all other services. CBC has indicated a will ingness to participate in that. One the questions though that has concerned me is the time frame that that distribution would take plac If that distribution occurs 48 hours later, it is not of much value to other services and we haven't hea too much yet as to how that distribution could take place, or would take place. Perhaps if membe have some other questions to ask, maybe Mr.

Halinda might be able to give us some information that respect. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I would have a tendency to say that I am willing to accept anything t� the gallery will accept which doesn't require public expenditure or installations on the part of t government. For instance, if the gallery will accept a CBC tripod and agree with it, and they VI allocate the space, then I have no objection. I don't sit in the gallery, it's they who have a problem, a1 if doesn't involve any steps on our

part I don't see why we shouldn't do it. If the gallery will tod� accept a portable camera coming in and taking a clip of a question to the Premier which does1 require anything other than - it doesn't even require a tripod - but requires a person to be able take a picture which has hitherto been unacceptable, then I would accept it. I don't know whethen need be involved if nothing is required of us, and if there is no disturbance. So, the CBC experime1 in that it requires government services, we would not agree. This is what Mr.

Fox has indicated, and I tend to agree, that if the CBC can get the permission the gallery to have two seats allocated so that a tripod goes in there, then good luck to them, I real have no objection and I would almost again be prepared, subject to exploration unless somebol shows me that this is a wild idea, to move that to the extent that the gallery has an acceptable way permitting television coverage within the confines of the gallery, and which requires no facilities c the part of the government, that the Committee uas no objection to them so doing.

I would almost I prepared to do that, in which case your CBC experiment can go ahead if the gallery says that they w let the tripod in. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the principle that Mr.

Green now endorses of accepting son arrangement that will not involve the government in expense or in distribution of tapes and so on, i� reasonable one but he provides a number of conditions and st ipulations in addition to that whict feel really should be presented to us in a written form with an opportunity for other people in tt media to examine and to accept and for CBC to come back and say, "Yes, this has the approval of tt press gallery, it has the approval of other media people involved and we propose to do it in th specific way, which we feel will not interfere with the proceedings of the House, nor will it in anyw� perhaps detract from the beauty of the Chamber in the form of permanent installations." But I think there are so many conditions here, although we accept the principle, that we shou really ask for a submission that we can again accept and we are certain that other people who a• indirectly involved are apprised of the proposal and are prepared also to go along.

MR. GREEN: Hasn't that been done? They have given a submission; the submission is that the CB put in a tripod; we don't have to do anything. They have said that we will do information servicE which I agree that we exclude, and the gallery has come in and said okay. Well, how much more of specific submission- and if they have any other submissions, fine, but what about this specific or - have they not made it, and have we not said that the only exclusion is that insofar as disseminatic Government Information Services will not be involved? Is there anything more about the submission that lacks precision? MR.

McGILL: Just to respond, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Green. I'm not completely certain that oth1 television organizations can be spoken for at this stage right now, so there is that area. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, that's my exact point. If we're going to open it up for one, we have 1 open it up for them all on equal bases and that is something that we haven't covered today. We have 1 have a detailed presentation from them all and how we work it is not going to be simple, it's going 1 take some discussion and some further time than we've spent on it this morning to come up with a answer. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well, I'll go down the list I have here. Mr. Steen, Mr. Kovnats and then Mr. Greer MR. STEEN: Well, just following along, Mr. Chairman, the same line of thought that Mr. McGi raised, earlier when Mr. Halinda was making his presentation, Mr. Jorgenson asked him a questio and he said, "I'm not a cameraman, I can't answer that, we'll have to look into it." So I would think thl what we should receive from CBC is a written submission to you, saying, "Yes, we have spoken to th other outlets, television outlets, and we have made arrangements to provide them with our facility they wish to have it.

We have got permission from the press gallery and they have allotted us a spot fc our cameraman," and that we have the assurance in the written submission that they have covered a bases before they proceed. I think the general concept is an excellent one. I just think they should g about it in an orderly fashion. 12

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 R. KOVNATS: Mr. Chair man, I th ink that everybody has spoken that we do req uir e more of a 1bm ission from all of the television compan ies, particul arly the CBC. I don't know what the cost volvement will be but on a comparative figur e I believe that at the House of Commons on a lrmanent basis, ther e was a cost of about $4 mill ion for in stallations and $1 mil lion a year for >era tions.

I th ink that this is some thing that will ultima tely be some thing that we have to consider, I n not prepared to suppor t any thing that the government has to put any money in and 1 am sur e that 'th the CBC proposal even at this time, that they will be looking for some in put from the Prov inci al overn ment as far as a contri bution toward the cost. I th ink that we do re quir e a written subm ission 1th the CBC get ting the agreement of the others to proceed, and I think that we can't pr oceed any rther until we do have such a written proposal. R. CHAIRMAN: Any further questions on that? Mr. Green. III R.

GREEN: Mr . Chairman, I bel ieve that we're all in agreement as to what should happen here. m a li ttle worried that it's going to come out that we are holding it up, and ther efore I want to take a 1or e positive att itude.

I want to say we ag ree, su bject to the fol lowing: that the gal lery makes the rrangement and tha t there is no arg ument about in eq ual ity as between sta tions, that we want them > resolve those two problems, and that if those two problems, and I think they are the only ones that ve heard -(I nterjec tion)- Wel l, or ou rselves, but I'm worried about us saying we st ill have to get a ubmission, we have to consider this. I think that we should be tel li ng them, no, we ag ree. We reco gni ze the foll owing problems - fir st f all we are not going to use Government Services, that would be one st ipula tion.

Second stipulation -that we want an assurance that the other sta tions are not going to claim that they are being iscri minated against. And thir dly, that we want the assurance of the press gall ery tuat physically 1ey can handle it and that it will not be a problem with the House. Now the only dif ference between the two kinds of expre ssions of opini on that I've come across is, ne said that we should wait for their further subm ission with regard to these questions and I want to �11 them that we ag ree tha t the problem is now to deal wi th those st ipu latio ns.

Those are the onl y 1r ee that I heard from honour able members, so let ther e be no suggestion that somehow this :ommittee is st ill in doub t about this que s tion. I don't bel ieve we've been in doubt for six years. IIR. CHAIRMAN: Would I then be correct in assumin g that the numb er one concern of this :ommittee is how CBC in tends to di stribute the film to the other sta tions and in what manner they IOU id ... ,R. GREEN: And whether the other sta tions agree with that. ,R. CHAIRMAN: Tha t is the numb er one concern of this Committee then. ,R. KOVNATS: Mr .

Chai rman, I see on the lis t that ther e is an Andy Arnott from CKND. I wonder if 1e was prepared to make his prese ntation also, and maybe we cou ld find out at this point whether here is some feeling about CKND suppor ting such an enterprise of the CBC doing the filming. III R. CHAIRMAN: Is Mr. Arn ott here? III R. ARNOTT: Mr. Chairman, we're only here as observers and really don' t have a subm ission to nake but we are wor king on the basis that if the CBC is allo wed to put a camera in the gal lery or 111 her ever, that the sig nal would be made available to us or to anyone else.

How we would pick up the eed, whether it would be with our own eq uipm ent or thr ough some other source, the dis tri bution of it 1as not really been dealt with as yet. But my un der st anding is that whatever the CBC does is available o everyone else. And it's been said that that would be the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: Wel l, this is a very in formal mee ting. If any one wants to ask any questions of Mr . �rno tt or of Mr . Halinda or of Mr . Stefanson -I un der stand Mr . Ste fanson has in di cated he may want o say someth ing fur ther. III R. ARNOTT: The only concern is, obviously and Mr .

Green has sa id, put ting thr ee or four �ameras in there is going to cause a gr eat deal of concern to you people and probably cause a gr eat jeal of no ise and racket and everyth ing. Obviousl y the best set-up wou ld be one camera in the House :md the signal available to everyone else, and as Mr. Hal in da has already sign ified that would be the �ase we are qu ite will ing to go from there and work out some und erst anding about how tha t signal IVOUid be made available to us. III R. CHAIRMAN: Very good . Mr . Stefa nson? III R.

STEFANSON: I think the Association tot ally agrees that one camera would be the best mangement and as was ind icated in our motions and was indi cated in my prel imin ary discussions Nith the CBC, no thing of a formal natur e, but we had been un der the assumption that they were 13

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 as kin g for the camera to be located left of the Speaker's Chair, so that's pri marily the question 1 addressed ou rselves to. And if that's the case, if it can be lo cated there, the Associa tion, I can see h no objection in any way, shape, or fo rm. MR. GREEN: And if it's in the Gal lery? MR. STEFANSO N: This is wher e the problem crops up because of space lim itations. MR. GREEN: Yes, but you've indic ated in what you said about the Galler y, that it would have to th eir space that was used. MR. STEFANSON: Righ t. MR. GREEN: Mr . Chair man, I think we have a de al.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good. We st ill have two other matters on the agenda here. MR. GREEN: Wel l, can we disp ose of this one? MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good . MR.

GREEN: Can we accept a consensus of the Commit tee -I want to see if I am properly sta tin� - that we agree with the principle of permit ting the televised media to oper ate in the Ho use prov idir it does no t in any way re quir e any in sta llations or chang e in the atmosphere in the Hou se, ar provided that the Press Galler y can accommodate them, and provided that they are able to prove the satisfact ion of the Speaker that ther e is no di spute as between the vari ous television outle ts. (I nterjec tion)- Pardon me? -(I nterjec tion)- Yes, and that ther e is no re quir ement of tl govern ment, or other req uir ement of the government.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Am I then to assume that the Committee has then left it in my jur isd iction to a li e it to proceed as soon as the agreement with the others have been worked out mutually for a feed c the camera that is be ing used? Is that agreement? (Agreed) Mr. Ste en. MR. STEEN: When Mr . Gr een mentio ned in his Motion, to the satisfac tion of the Speaker, whic h assuring the other outle ts of fair play, I am prepared to accept that th en. MR. CHAIRMAN: I will also go one step fur ther and notify all members of the Committee when "' get that assurance and that agreement. Fair enough? Mr. Blak e. MR.

BLAKE: I un derst and, Mr. Chai rman , that this is on an experimental basis, and what len gth ' time is the experiment to last? mr. GREEN: We ll, as long as they agree with it, you see, there's no re quir ement to us. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don' t think it is up to us to sudde nl y cancel any experi ment ... A MEMBER: A couple of days of Committee of Su pply and they 'll take it oft the air . MR. GREEN: You see, Mr . Chairman, I think that the experi ment should continue until the Pre: Galler y advises us that there is a problem with it. Because there's no thing re quir ed of us.

Or until tt Committee ... the Committee might have an un for eseen pr oblem, then they cou ld br ing it back the Chai rman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good then. We have two other items on the agenda, one is an appl icatio and it is not a written applic ation. I've had two applic ations from organizations of hand icappE people who find it is imposs ible for them to get int o the visit ors' gal lery in a whe elc hai r and thE would lik e to have perm is sion to view the proce edi ngs of the House in some manner .

Now, as foresee the probl em, the only place that they can do it is from the floor of the Leg isla tur e, and that think, causes more problems than what it would solve, but that's up to this Committee to determ in Mr . Mc Gill. MR. McGILL: Mr . Chairman, is this for a parti cular sit ting of the Leg isla tur e, or is this a gener acceptance of att endance as and when these gr oup s would decide? If it were to be an arrangeme1 for a single sit ting of the Leg islatur e in any one ses sion, it would put it on a some what di fferent basis would think, than ... MR.

CHAIRMAN: I was un der the impr ession this was whene ver half a dozen of them happened 1 be in the building. 14

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 R. BLAKE: Mr . Chai rman, I can see no objection to it, but it would have to be on that basis that ey arrange one sit ting or two sit ting s during the ses sion when they are there and that's it. ' You ,uld n't hav � them coming in five and .six at a time, any day, or day after day after day; it wou ld di srup t e pr oceed mgs of the House, I thmk, to too gr eat an ext ent.

But 1 think you could cert ainly :commodate �hem, to giv e them the benefit of sitting in on a sess ion, to set aside a day or two days, e-arranged t1mes, and so the members wou ld kno w also, and then that 's it. R. GREEN: Mr. Chai rman , I would lik e you to refer to the Public Works Department, this pr oblem. n not certa in that ther e isn't someth ing that can be done wher eby these people could get to the :tller y, with a space for either wheelchairs in the galler y, or assistance to people to move from the heel chair to normal sea ting. But I think that ther e is a legiti mate problem here.

I don' tJh ink that we 1ould be overwh el med by it, and yet, I thi nk it is a leg itimate concern. And if the Public Works epartment has the qu estion referred to it and tel ls us what is necessary in order to provide either mping, or other facilit ies to perm it a whe elchair to get in to the public gal lery, we may be able to ,lve it so that they are dealt with on the same basis as other citizens rather than sit ting in the gal lery. nd I' d lik e to hear from them before we make a de fin ite de cision on this ques tion. IR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Gr een, I am advised that a standard whe elchair is two in ches wider than the 1ssageway at the back of the Visi tors Gallery up stairs, that there is not enough room even if you got em in to the Visit ors Galler y, you can't move the whe elchair down at the back, in the Vi sitors Gallery. R. GREEN: But can't that be hel ped? Can't ther e be one door in which -(I nter je ction)- Wel l, Mr. hairman, let's know that this is forever; let's kno w that there will always be such people, and all of the Ji ldings that are buil t now try to make that kind of pro vision.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the entire :tllery be altered, but if there is one place at which whe elchai rs are accommodated, and if the ramp is o na rrow at the back of the sea ting, then it seems to me that one of those big seats with the huge :tck has to be changed, the ramp has to be exten ded , and that doesn't have to be done throughout e gal lery, it can be done in a place wher e then the gu ards are able to get whe elchair s in to the iller y. Then you have to build ramps on stairs, too.

But I think that all of us have been pers onally :quai nted with people in such positions - and we're not talkin g about a one-time effort, we're lkin g about forever, and I rea lly think that we should ask them to look at it. R. CHAIRMAN: Mr . Jorgenson. R. JORGENSON: You have referred this matter to the Public Works people? R. CHAIRMAN: I have not referred it to the Publ ic Works people as such, no. R. JORGENSON: We ll, maybe that would be the fir st step, anyway. R. CHAIRMAN: Mr . Kovnats. R. KOVNATS: Mr.

Chairman, I think that ther e req ui res a li ttle bit more in ves tigation than just 1fe rring it to the Public Works Department without any dir ection from us. I think that if we are going 'g o to the expense and I think the expense is a factor, that we do have to consider all the aspects of includin g manners in which we are able to get the whee lchair patients up in to the gal lery or on to e floor of the Leg isla tur e, and I think that we have to consider washroom facilities also.

So, I th ink at it's a whole program in vest igation to accommodate the people in whe elchair s, rather than ju st Jt ting them in to the galler y or on to the Leg is lative floor, and I think that the Public Works is the �partment, as Mr . Gr een has sugge sted , to giv e us a repor t on it so that we can make a decision 1sed on how we can accommodate the people in whe elchair s. R. CHAIRMAN: Any further di scussion on that? Then the matter will be referred to the Public orks Department.

We have one other item here which I bel ie ve has some int erest to members because it is co min g > for debate today, I un der stan d, in Pri vate Mem bers' Hour , and this is the problem of Orders for �turn transferred for debate. We seem to have had a li ttle bit of fuz zine ss or misunder st and ing; is ere any method . . . R. JORGENSON: Yes, there was a li ttle fuzziness on that, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if I may just ad the particular rule, and I don' t thi nk it will take very long to make a de cision on it because the rule pretty cle ar un less somebody deli berately ch ooses to misi nterpr et it, and that's been known to tppen. "Where debate aris es on a motion for an Order for Return, or an Addr ess for Papers, the otion shal l be transferred by the Clerk to the items of Order s for Return and Addr ess for Papers and e sub sequent Order Papers for debate at the next sit ting at which Orders for Return and Addr ess r Papers takes precedence." That day happens to be Wednesday.

So that an Order for Return troduced for the fir st ti me, if I in terpr et the rule correctly, can only be in troduced on a Wednesday. 15

Rules Of The House Tuesday, April 25, 1978 MR. GREEN: Yes. Ju st to write it down , Mr . Chai rman. From tim e to time when we see thin gs tl look a bit ridiculous, we should note them so that we can get rid oft hem. I thi nk that that moti on, tl the Speech from the Thr one would be eng rossed and sent to Her Majesty, etc., that that's a red un di motion , or it should be in cl l,lded in the fi rst moti on. lt should be in cl uded in the motion on the Spee from the Thr one.

That one we' ll have to deal with in camera, but I think that the other moti on, that 1 Sp eaker should write it down for refere nce to the Clerk. In 19 66 Gil Molga t adjou rned that de bate • was it Gor don Joh nst on? And theore tically, ther e's no time limi t on that debate, so you have a Thro Sp eech Debate - that's 8 days - then you have another motion which you can debate forever, wh i doesn't make sense. -(l nterject ions)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: Ther e's one other matter I would lik e to have you thi nk about a wee bit, an< occu rred yesterday, and that is, when you have a matter of ur gent public debate the Speaker has o hour notifica tion.

But then each rec ogn ized politic al party has 5 minut es to de bate the ur gency, a then the Speaker must make his immed iate ru lin g after that. lt may very we ll be that the Speaker that one hour has been incl ined to rule in a certa in way on it, but the argume nt that is put forward the Chamber may raise some other matters which he may want to co nsult with the rules on, a whether or not the Speaker should have the option of deferr ing a de cision and sett ing aside t debate for some futur e time is someth in g I jus t want you to think about. MR. GREEN: Mr .

Chai rman, when we devised that rule, we gave you a very good out. Perhaps Y' didn' t notice it, but there is a ... lt's only in rare cir cu mstances do I think that the Speaker should n it out of order and not vot able, because if the Speaker has doub ts as to whether the motion is out order, he should n't have to worry about it. He should say that the motion has been put, are you rea for the ques tion? And the Hous e will say whether they want to debate or not.

I don' t kno w what y1 did yesterday, cause I wasn't here, I gather that you rule d the motion out of order, which is leg itim a I mean, then your ru lin g can be adjourned and you have the same vote, or probably a simil ar vo1 But what the Speaker did last year on nu merous occasions is he foll owed that part of the rule whi1 said, "You have heard the qu es tion, you've heard the debate, shal l the debate proceed?" And tl majority of the Hous e then decide s whether it should go ahead or not.

So I would re commend to yo Sir, that you not be worried too much about the actual qu estion of the order of the debate, and ju find out whether the House think s that it should be pr oceeded with , and in most cases I pred ict tha majority of the House will lik ely vote against it, that's jus t a prediction from past experience. MR. CHAIRMAN: Wel l, it was the fir st time that it has come under my chai rmans hip. MR. GREEN: I un dersta nd, but there is that provision.

The provision is that we do not do it accordance with the rulin g, not necessa rily, that the Speaker can put the question because it is motion that the House deba te a matter of ur gent public importance. One argues for it, somebody eh arg ues against it, and then we put the qu es tion, and if it's voted in favo ur, the debate proceeds; if doesn't, the deb ate stops. And the Speaker doesn't have to be on the hook for what is, perhaps, E un necessary ru ling because it can be decided by the House. MR.

JORGENSON: In the final analysis, it is the Hou se that has the authori ty in determ inir whether or not the debate proceeds. You rule on a que stion of order, when, and there are occasior when the motion is so obviously out of order that it cannot be enter tain ed by the Chair. Ther e ha1 been occasions and one of them is if it does not come und er the ju risdiction of the governmen I reca ll on one occas ion, when a motion was moved tha t the Ho use consider some matter th happened in Newf oundla nd, and the Speaker rule d it out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further matters for this comm ittee?

Have I a motion f< adjou rnment? Committee rise. 16

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-rh1
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf rh1.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	55ee307c424f7697ca3d1f2710fb227fec6f51d0

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