Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 75 (38th Legislature, 4th Session)

38-4-75

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVII No. 75 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 24, 2006

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2485 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 24, 2006 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on a point of order or a matter of privilege? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on a point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do rise on a point of order, what I believe is a very serious matter and a possible breach of our rules. I would start by referencing Beauchesne's Sixth Edition, Citation 319, where it states, Mr.

Speaker: Any member is entitled, even bound, to bring to the Speaker's immediate notice any incidence of a breach of order. The members may interrupt and lay the point in question concisely before the Speaker. This should be done as soon as an irregularity is perceived–and I emphasize the word "perceived" there–in the proceedings which are engaging the attention of the House. So that is Beauchesne's 319. I would also suggest that we look at Beauchesne's Citation No. 27: A question of privi- lege ought rarely to come up in Parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion of grievance, House power–Mr.

Speaker, I am quoting the wrong one there. I will make sure I get the right one here. It is Citation No. 33. I am sorry. It states: The most fundamental privilege of th e House as a whole is to establish rules of procedure for itself and then to enforce them. A few rule s are laid down in the Constitution Act, but the vast majority of resolutions of the House which may be added to, amended, or repealed at the discretion of the House. Mr. Speaker, we know, and we often make reference to Beauchesne's.

We know the importance that our own rules, rule s of order and forms of proceedings, that is something that has been adopted by this Legislature, and these rules supersede Beauchesne's, as you have indicated to me on numerous occasions. Mr. Speaker, what supersedes these rules are agreements. There was an agreement amongst all three parties inside this Legislature, and the power of that agreement I believe supersedes the rules of this Chamber. What I would like to emphasize is how you, as Speaker, have acknowledged the importance of these rules that were accepted. You will recall an item No. 4.

It says all government bills introduced by April 13 must have the second reading stage completed by May 18, 2006. You will recall, on May 18, you, in essence, stopped any further debate as this rules says and you put to question on those bills in second reading that in fact qualified. Those bills that qualified were every bill that the Speaker has called for debate at least three times. I would argue, Mr. Speaker, you did correct diligence in interrupting the proceedings of the House to enforce this agreement that we had all signed off on last year. * (13:35) Mr.

Speaker, what I would ask for you to do is take a look at item 3. Item 3 states in the second paragraph, two Fridays are to be designated at the call of the Government House Leader after consulting with the independent members as days for consideration by independent members of the concurrence motions by the Committee of Supply from 10 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. On those Fridays, a quorum is not required and no question may be put to a vote. Mr.

Speaker, the issue th ere is that myself and my leader are afforded th e opportunity, according to this agreement, to be able to sit on Fridays, on two Fridays, in order to have face-to-face questions and answers of the government and its ministers. Well, I think if we take a look at the time

schedule that we have left and we are talking about today, May 24– [interjection] I do think that it is important that the details of what it is that I am taking, the members should listen to because I am expecting that the Govern ment House Leader might have to respond. There are a limited number of days that are left inside this session because, as we know, the House will in fact be adjourning on June 13. That is when you are going to be putting the rest of the questions

2486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 that are necessary and then the House is going to be adjourning. By my calculation, it is going to be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, under the current rules, under the current limitations that we have to ensure that both the Leader of the Liberal Party and myself are guaranteed those two Fridays which this government had agreed to. You might ask well, why do I raise it. Well, today I was approached and a suggestion was made that we deal with Bills 31, 20, 14, 24 and 25 before the Estimates.

Now I have two problems with that with respect to this agreement that was signed. If you take a look at today's Order Paper, you will see that there is report stage amendments. There is third reading on a number of bills. In fact, Mr. Speaker, we have second reading bills which the Conservatives had put aside to ensure that there is going to be further debate on those five other bills that were put to the side. Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of issues that do in fact need to be addressed, and the bills that the government is proposing after Question Period to deal with are all bills that have not even been introduced for second reading inside this Chamber. With the scarce amount of time that is left, the government has got to recognize that it has a responsibility to live up to an agreement which they have signed. So we are very much concerned that the government is not living up to the agreement, and we believe that that is a valid point of order.

You have recognized the importance as the Speaker to this agreement that was signed, and we have lived within this agreement. What we are asking for is the government to do likewise. We recognize that the government is a little sensitive because maybe they are not able to get their full legislative agenda dealt with because they are not calling a public inquiry on the Crocus file, but, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the agreement– Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order? * (13:40) Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Official Opposition House Leader): Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I appreciate the comments that the Member for Inkster has put on the record, I think this is an issue that would best be discussed among House leaders to resolve. I know that there was some public negotiations that happened in the media, both the NDP and the Liberals. We do not want to see these negotiations happen within a public forum. We think that it would be more respectful if they happen in a private forum. It would be more fruitful.

We would encourage the government, who now seem to be nodding their heads, to also adhere to that and discuss these things privately, along with the Liberal House Leader, and we believe we could come to a resolution. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Well, Mr. Speaker, we certainly concur with the last point that was made. The convention between House leaders, historically, has been to negotiate within 45 minutes or whatever of going to the newspapers. But, Mr.

Speaker, having said that, we would urge the Member for Inkster to look at what the sessional order is all about. It actually would put an onus on the members of the House to move to third reading but that was in the context, of course, of making sure there was passage of bills by June 13. They cannot avoid their acco untability to the public for slowing down the legislative agenda with trying to get the government off its agenda to bring in measures that will better protect the health, the safety and the finances of Manitobans. They are going to have to be accountable to Manitobans for their silly tactics.

When it comes to the argument about concur- rence, the reason we cannot get to concurrence is because of tactics by the member opposite. Imagine that, he gets up now and says, we cannot get to concurrence. Well, that was a choice he made. I did make an offer, as was reported unfortunately, and they said no. They are not going to take up the offer t h a t w e m a d e o f m o r e t i m e s o t h a t t h e y c a n f u l f i l l their obligations to the people of Manitoba to scrutinize the government and move the legislative agenda. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate they would get up now, after having been a party to stymieing the public's business, and now say that, oh, they are running out of time. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Inkster, first of all, it is not a point of order. It is House management. Negotiations on House management should not take place on the

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2487 floor. It should be up to the House leaders to deal with it. We are not at the point where the issue that the member is raising, it is when concurrence is required. Concurrence is dealt with after the hours of the Estimates are completed, and we are not at that stage. Also, if you look at Beauchesne, page 49, 168(3): The Speaker cannot be consulted from the floor of the House as to the consequences of the passage of a resolution. So the honourable member does not have a point of order. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Levy on Cattle Mr.

Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government intends to create a provincial check-off fee, levy of $2 per head, for cattle sold in Manitoba. This decision was made without consultation with Manitoba's cattle producers and representa tives from agricultural groups. This $2-a-head increase will affect the entire cattle industry in Manitoba, which is already struggling to recover from the BSE crisis and other hardships.

It would encourage fair and equitable practices if cattle producers in Manitoba had the opportunity to share in the decision-making process. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives (Ms. Wowchuk) to consider holding consultations with Manitoba's cattle producers and representatives from agricultu ral groups before this levy is put in place. This petition is signed by Barry Penner, Melvin Watt, Jim Pringle, Tom Campbell and many, many others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. * (13:45) Removal of Agriculture Positions from Minnedosa Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Nine positions with the Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives Crown Lands Branch are being moved out of Minnedosa. Removal of these positions will severely impact the local economy. Removal of these positions will be detrimental to revitalizing this rural agriculture community.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider stopping the removal of these positions from our community, and to consider utilizing current technology in order to maintain these positions in their existing location. This petition is presented by Jim Sandstrom, Harley Bold, Cam Farr and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition.

These are the reasons for this petition: Nine positions with the Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives Crown Lands Branch are being moved out of Minnedosa. Removal of these positions will severely impact the local economy. Removal of these positions will be detrimental to revitalizing the rural agriculture community. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider stopping the removal of these positions from our community, and to consider utilizing current technology in order to maintain these positions in their existing location.

Submitted by Richard Gauthier, Yvonne Scott, Robert Tuttle and many, many others.

2488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 OlyWest Hog Processing Plant Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to read the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background for this petition is as follows: The Manitoba government, along with the OlyWest consortium, promoted the development of a mega hog factory within the city of Winnipeg without proper consideration of rural alternatives for the site.

Concerns arising from the hog factory include noxious odours, traffic and road impact, water supply, waste water treatment, decline in property values, cost to taxpayers and proximity to the city's clean drinking water aqueduct. Many Manitobans believe this decision repre- sents poor judgment on behalf of the provincial government. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to imme- diately cancel its plans to support the construction of the OlyWest hog plant and rendering factory near any urban residential area.

Signed by Hao Wang, Ya Tang, Laurie Flockton and many, many others. Crocus Investment Fund Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba government was made aware of serious problems involving the Crocus Fund back in 2001.

Manitoba's provincial auditor stated "We believe the department was aware of red flags at Crocus and failed to follow up on those in a timely way." As a direct result of the government not acting on what it knew, over 33,000 Crocus investors have lost tens of millions of dollars. The relationship between some union leaders, the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the NDP seems to be the primary reason as for why the government ignored the many red flags.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider the need to seek clarification on why the government did not act on fixing the Crocus Fund back in 2001. To urge the Premier and his government to co- operate in making public what really happened. This is signed, Mr. Speaker, by G. Piasecki, R. Piasecki, B. Guest and many, many other fine Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2006-2007 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Energy, Science and Technology. Hon. Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report for the 2005 Municipal Board. * (13:50) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from the Huttarian Colony Schools in the Prairie Rose School Division 29 Grade 12 students under the direction of Mr. Trevor Boehm.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu). Also in the public gallery we have from Miami School 31 Grades 4 to 6 students under the direction of Mrs. Angela McCullough. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Health Care System Emergency Room Services Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Health care under this NDP government lurches from crisis to crisis.

The ER crisis in Winnipeg is getting worse every single year, not better.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2489 Today we have an ER crisis in Winnipeg that, according to the government's own health experts, is putting patients at risk. The 2004 internal review after the tragic death of Dorothy Madden failed to result in any meaningful action to resolve this crisis. Mr. Speaker, 80 shifts today remain unfilled for this summer in the city's emergency rooms. What is it going to take to get this government to fix this crisis in health care? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, the member opposite references the report on ER.

I believe there are 47 additional nurses working in the emergency wards today than there were in 1999, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, in the midst of an ER crisis that is putting patients at risk in Winnipeg, the government has launched a slick, sneaky propaganda campaign. With no sense of priority, we have seen our system rank dead last, even though we spend the fourth-most in Canada. Money for government propaganda, nothing for Manitobans waiting in emergency rooms. When is the government going to get its priori- ties straight?

Why is this NDP government putting its re-election campaign ahead of patient safety? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the agreement dealing with wait lists' money from the previous federal government included reports to the public, reports going from eight weeks in cancer treatment down to less than one week, cardiac waits going down, hip and knee surgery going down. I would note that this practice with the federal government continues now with the new federal government. He may remember giving advice to the Harris government, and the former Minister of Health there was Mr. Clement.

He was in The Globe and Mail last week, part of the same campaign. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, given the emergency room crisis in Winnipeg, which is getting worse each year under this NDP government, and given that the government cannot seem to get its act together on recruitment of physicians, the Conference Board, the external experts say that patients in Manitoba must truly be patient.

Given this failure of he alth care policy, can the Premier assure the House that his government will not embark on a policy of alternating ER closures in Winnipeg, thereby cutting access to care for Winnipeggers when they need it? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I recall when the member opposite worked in the Cabinet room the closure of Victoria, Seven Oaks, Concordia, Grace Hospital, and it was only the public that stood up against them and stopped those changes.

I would point out that a recent report dealing with the emergency room situation in Canada and resource strategies for Canada says: Experience has shown that decisions made today will impact the delivery of health care a decade from now, since it takes from five to 11 years or more of medical school and residency to train a doctor. Now we have put in a plan to reverse the decisions of the past that are wrong. We have gone in a medical school that was reduced down to 70, we have gone to 85. We are now at 100 medical students in Manitoba, doctors for the future for our emergency wards. I would point out, Mr.

Speaker, that we also have increased the residencies from two to five in the emergency wards. We have increased the nursing staff by 43. The numbers of doctors including sessional doctors and ER docs, when you add them up together, it has gone from 93 to 105. There is more work to do; there is no question. There are shifts still to be filled and doctors still to be recruited. But going from the second-lowest salaries– when we came into office the salaries for doctors in Manitoba were only higher than P.E.I., and we have raised the salaries every year.

We have negotiated with the doctors in a way that will allow us to recruit and retain more doctors. More work to do, more students at the medical school, more residents, more nurses, more ER nurses, more programs to divert patients to other options. I, for example, have used Health Links. I have actually phoned a nurse for medical advice in Health Links, a program we have also quadrupled since we came into office. * (13:55) Health Care System Physician Resources Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier neglected to mention that our ERs are short 14 doctors and 35 nurses, and that is a critical shortage. According to the WRHA, Winnipeg is short almost 100 specialists. A recent Conference Board of Canada report points out that waits to see a specialist in Manitoba are the longest in Canada.

2490 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Is the reason it takes so long to see a specialist in Manitoba because we are short 100 specialists here in Winnipeg? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Well, first, Mr. Speaker, as I would just remind my honourable friend, we have more than 200 more physicians than we had in 1999. There are shortages, for example, in pediatricians across North America. American areas are competing intensely because of specialist short- ages across North America.

I am sure that the opposition is tired of hearing this, but when you cut your medical school to 70, about eight or nine years later you are going to be short of graduating residents, and about 12 years later, you are going to be short of specialists. We regret the decisions that they have made. We are doing everything in our power to correct them. We cannot create instant doctors. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health in the past has said that this is a retention problem. He chooses not to mention that right now. In 2004, Winnipeg was short 79 specialists. In 2005, Winnipeg was short 82 specialists.

Now Win- nipeg is short almost 100 specialists. In this city we are short almost 100 specialists. It is a retention problem, and the Minister of Health has even acknowledged that. I would like to ask him today: Why is he not doing something to retain these specialists? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, we not only retain special- ists, we attract outstanding international specialists like Dr. West who came here to start one of Canada's premier neurology programs. We have attracted and retained excellent specialists, for example, Dr.

Bohm in Concordia Hospital, where they are able to do in a single day more than three times as many hips procedures as were done before we started to use the centres of excellence approach. Perhaps the member does not realize that as doctors age they tend to retire, and when you do not have specialists in the pipeline getting formed, those who retire do in fact create vacancies. Yes, there are vacancies in Winnipeg. It is not a retention of specialists issue; it is a retirement and a lack of people in the pipeline to become specialists. Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, it is the Minister of Health that has in the past said this is a retention problem, and I will remind him that under his watch it has gotten worse under the last two years in terms of physician, specialist shortages. Winnipeg is short seven anesthetists, which will slow down surgeries; six radiologists, which will slow down diagnostic testing; 14 ER doctors; seven psychiatrists; and the list goes on and on. It is happening under his watch. It is getting worse under his watch and, Mr. Speaker, this is a critical shortage when you look at Winnipeg being short 100 specialists.

Why did the Minister of Health and the Premier (Mr. Doer) not put that in their propaganda and let the public know how badly off Winnipeg is in terms of a specialist shortage? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, I want the member to listen very carefully. Very carefully. [interjection] They are not list ening, Mr. Speaker. Currently Manitoba has 44 orthopedic surgeons, nine more than the 35 that were here in 1999. Currently, and I want her to listen to this, there are 119 anesthesiologists, 30 more than in 1999. Mr.

Speaker, there are 17 clini cal assistants working in our operating rooms, 17 more than there were in 1999. * (14:00) Illegal Drug Manufacturing Protection for Children Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): W e w a n t t h e government to listen very, very carefully to the question, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Goertzen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Children who are forced to live in residences that are being used as meth labs or marijuana grow ops face dangers as a result of the toxic and the criminal environment that surrounds them.

An RCMP report from this year, citing a B.C. study, showed that children were present in 22 percent of all marijuana grow ops that were found. Could the Minister of Family Services indicate how many children have been found to be living in marijuana grow ops or meth labs in Manitoba over the past 24 months? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, under The Child and Family Services Act, there is protection

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2491 for children that when they are found to be in an environment that is unsafe, whatever that environ- ment would be, the Child and Family Services people working with the police force, the local police force, would make sure that those children are taken to a safe environment. That counts for children in any environment. We do not pick and choose envir- onments in which we remove children from difficult situations into safer ones. We work in the best interests of the children of Manitoba. Mr.

Goertzen: We know that unfortunately those who manufacture drugs in their homes often use children as a decoy as a way to divert people's suspicions from those homes and the illegal activities that are happening within them. An Ontario study indicates that as many as 10,000 children may have resided in grow ops between the years 2000 and 2003 in that province. This year alone, we understand from the Winnipeg police force, 27 grow operations have been found here in the city of Winnipeg. I ask the Minister of Family Services again.

She did not answer the question that I asked last time, so I will give her another chance: Can she indicate–she must know, she says there are processes in place– how many children have been found in grow ops or meth labs in the past 24 months? Ms. Melnick: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, rather than dealing with the broader perspective of the safety of the children in Manitoba, we have the member opposite want to single out and pick and choose. We do not do that.

Under The Child and Family Services Act, when children are found to be in an environment that is deemed to be unsafe, the department will work with the local police force to remove those children from whatever environment it is and take them into a safer environment. This is what we do for the children of Manitoba. I think it is very important that the Member for Steinbach recognize that environments that are safe must be dealt with in a way that will make them safe and that children who are in unsafe situations, whatever that situation is, would be brought to a place of safety. Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I find it strange that other jurisdictions have these statistics and they know how many children have been found, but this minister here in Manitoba does not know. I suspect she does know but she does not want to put that information on the record. I find that disconcerting. Mr. Speaker, in March of this year, the Alberta legislature passed legislation, the first of its kind in Canada, that states: where a child is purposely exposed to drug manufacturing, that child will be brought into protection.

On the Manitoba Meth Strategy Web site, it states that Manitoba is in the process of establishing a specific protocol to deal with children who are found in meth labs. I want to ask the Minister of Family Services, she did not answer my last question but I will give her another chance. Can she indicate whether part of the protocol review will consider the Alberta legislation and their experience? Ms. Melnick: Mr.

Speaker, we are aware of that protocol, and we are always looking for the way things can be done and the safety of the children, whether it be in Alberta, whether it be from another jurisdiction, Canada, North America or anywhere else. Our focus is the protection of children, to work in the best interests of children and when they are found to be in an environment that is deemed dangerous, whatever the criteria of that environment is, we work collectively to take them out of the danger and put them into places of safety. Freedom of Information Act Review Mrs.

Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): My question is for the minister responsible for the freedom of information act. In the early spring of 2004, public hearings were held in Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson to seek public input into the review of the freedom of information act. The report was tabled in the House on May 31, 2004. Next week it will be two years since the report was tabled. Why has the government failed to provide the amendments to the act? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the member is quite correct that we did indeed have the public hearings in Brandon, Thompson and Win- nipeg during the months of April and May of 2004. A report of those meetings was made to the Legislature at the end of May 2004. We have made indeed some regulatory changes to update forms, the names of departments and agencies named in the regulation and so on, but none of these changes alter existing rights of access or privacy.

2492 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, as he indicated, he did the housekeeping. Changing a name does not change regulations or enforce recommendations that were made. These people took their time and effort to come forward and provide in formation that they felt was important in accessing government information. Provincial Council of Women and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation are just two of the many organizations that have indicated concerns in accessing government information.

There were 37 presentations, over 100 recommendations and sug- gestions to change the freedom of information act to make information more accessible from government. Mr. Speaker, will the minister finally take a look at this report and bring in a bill that incorporates any of these recommendations? Mr. Robinson: Indeed, Mr. Speaker, we appreciated hearing the views of Manitobans and their input certainly during the public hearings process and the submissions process as well. I believe that the member is making referenc e to the recent announce- ment by the Canadian Association of Journalists.

However, I would like to point out to the member that in May of 2005, there is also the Canadian Newspaper Association national survey deemed that Manitoba had the second-best disclosure rate of 88 percent. Mrs. Rowat: Mr. Speaker, the Ombudsman's office has received an increasing number of complaints from people who are placing complaints against this government. People should not have to file com- plaints with the Ombudsman to obtain information because freedom of inform ation is a fundamental right of democracy.

The people of Manitoba want transparency, and they wa nt to know what this government is doing or not doing. Why has the minister not brought in a bill to address the recommendations? They took the time to provide them to the government. Why are they ignoring them? This government needs to be trans- parent and accountable and they are failing to do that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Robinson: Let me thank the member for the question, Mr. Speaker, and also point out to her some numbers. In 2005, 85 percent of the applications were handled within a 30-day time frame, and I feel very proud of that.

Compared with 2004, all access applications increased by 46 percent in 2005 from 899 to 1,316, while complaints declined by more than 50 percent. Our access to information legislation is more comprehensive than the federal legislation. It also covers Crowns, and in April 2000, we extended FIPPA to all public bodies, specifically to more than 350 government, municipal, educational including school divisions, universities and health care bodies. I believe– Mr. Speaker: Order. University of Manitoba Tuition Fees for Foreign Students Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford). Last night, the University of Manitoba board of governors reluctantly approved an increase in international tuition fees of 80 percent, plus an additional $100 flat fee for all students and ancillary fees. This was done to try to avoid cuts in programs and supports. I want to ask the minister and the government whether they support the fee increases that were announced by the board of governors last evening. Hon.

Christine Melnic k (Acting Minister of Advanced Education and Training): Well, I think when you look at the record of this government on post-secondary education as compared to members opposite, since 1999 university funding has gone up by 41 percent. That does not include capital invest- ments of which the University of Manitoba received $50 million of the some $100-million investments we have made in post-secondary.

This compared to members opposite, when during the nineties, when I believe the now Leader of the Opposition sat on the board of governors, where there were actually cuts to post-secondary education in the province. So I think that when you compare our record to theirs, students and universities can clearly see we are on their side. * (14:10) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I think if we have university students watching Question Period today along with university officials, they will certainly pass judgment on this government's actions. On one hand, we try to attract international students to our universities.

On the other hand, we clobber them with fee increases of 80 percent. I want to ask this government whether it has any plan to provide the much-needed stability to university funding so that students are not subjected to this kind of radical fee increase.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2493 Ms. Melnick: Indeed, I hope that students and universities are watching today, Mr. Speaker, because for the first time ever we have a three-year funding arrangement with post-secondary and universities. The first year alone includes 5.8 percent increase and a 1.2 percent drop in property taxes for univer- sities. So that is 7 percent in this year alone. The remaining two years have an increase of at least 5 percent in each of the years. So I congratulate universities and students for the good work that they do for the future of Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, there is no question that our universities and our students are doing their job. The people who are not doing their job is the government. Universities are being forced to increase tuition fees to international students. Universities are being forced to find money from an cillary fees to run their programs, all because this government did not provide the compensatory funding it was supposed to when tuition freezes came in.

I want to ask this government whether they have any plans to ensure that our universities are competi- tive with other universities across the land in terms of the funding that they receive? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I remember meeting with the business community and the university community when we were first elected. They told me that they had gone to the former government and the former Cabinet and asked them to participate in a capital campaign to contribute and invest $50 million, and they would pledge as the private sector to raise $50 million.

They said to us: The University of Manitoba engineering building is leaking, the roof is leaking. Mr. Speaker, I am proud of the fact that we started the capital campaign. We have had operating grants that we have just announced in this budget of some 17 percent over the next three years, and we just opened the new Richardson functional food and nutraceutical centre; again, something the members opposite said no to and we said yes to the future here in Manitoba. Flooding–Assiniboine River Valley Compensation Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, this is the Premier that was going to fix those leaky roofs with Autopac money until Manitobans rebelled and said he could not do it. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to accountability, this NDP government is conspicuous by its absence. Yesterday, the federal Minister of Agriculture came to Manitoba to announce $15 per acre, up to $24 million for Manitoba farmers, in short-term relief for flooded farmers. This Minister of Agriculture did not even bother to attend the announcement, did not respond to it, was not even there.

Again, the utter contempt and disregard the NDP has for this province's farmers is obvious. Why does this minister continue to show contempt for Manitoba farmers, with neither her nor any of her members of government representing our farmers attending this critical announcement of support? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, I would stand by this government's record on their support for farmers anytime if you look at the support that we have put into farmers through the various challenges that we have had, doubling our money into CAIS, putting more money into excess moisture insurance. I can assure the member that I certainly did have discussions with the previous federal government and with this federal government so that we would have a covering program in those areas where there was flooding. I am pleased that the federal government has delivered on that. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Speaker, while the federal government comes to farmers in Manitoba with relief, this minister, provincially, all she can do is levy more taxes on them. This NDP government must be accountable for its actions and for its inactions. Assiniboine Valley farmers' lands are underwater because of arti ficial flooding along the Assiniboine River Valley right now. When will the minister meet with the farmers of the Assiniboine Valley to hear first-hand how they have been affected and discuss compensation for this artificial flooding? Ms. Wowchuk: Again, Mr.

Speaker, I will put our record and stand beside our record anytime to the record that they had. There was a government that increased taxes on farmland. We reduced education tax on farmland by 60 percent. There was a government that would not listen to farmers when

2494 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 they were asking for an excess moisture insurance program. They may talk about it, Mr. Speaker. They did not deliver. This is a government that heard the farmers and delivered to them. This is a government that has an open-door policy. We have met with farmers and we will continue to work with farmers. We will continue to work with them because we recognize how important they are to the economy of this province. Mr. Maguire: Well, Mr. Speaker, maybe the minister is just a little sensitive that her Premier calls Manitoba farmers "chickens." Mr.

Speaker, the NDP government's lack of accountability is preposte rous. They refuse to address the concerns of artificially flooded farmers in the Assiniboine River Valley. When will the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his ministers commit to providing flood damage assistance to producers in the valley that have been affected by artificial flooding? Ms. Wowchuk: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would remind the member– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Speaker, I would remind the members opposite that many of them were at a meeting with the farmers from the Assiniboine Valley and I believe it was in Miniota. The farmers that were at that meeting said to the members opposite: This was a problem in your day, and you did nothing about it. This is not a new problem, Mr. Speaker. The members opposite were well aware of the problem that exists in the Assiniboine Valley. The farmers told them very clearly at that meeting that they had a responsibility and they did nothing. We have met with them, and we will continue to work with them.

Child and Family Services Agencies Review–Terms of Reference Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, today, we learned that Child and Family Services is now the defendant in a lawsuit over the death of young Keyanna-Marie Snowdon, a 22-month-old child who drowned in a hot tub while in foster care. Without getting into the details of the case, this shows once more just how urgently a proper inquiry into the operations of Child and Family Services is needed. Over two months ago, on March 20, the minister ever so reluctantly announced two so-called reviews into Child and Family Services.

For two months now, I have repeatedly asked the minister to table the terms of reference for the ex ternal review. So far all we have is a press release which the minister admitted in Estimates yesterday had some errors. Yesterday in committee, I again asked the minister for the terms of reference. This time she said she did not have them at the moment. So now that we know the minister has these, will she table them? Hon.

Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Well, again we can refer to the press release which outlined what the two reviews will be doing, but I think it is also very important that the Member for River Heights, who has continually played games and attempted to undermine the child welfare system, be very careful here. There was no reluctance in announcing those reviews. I worked very cl osely with the authorities on that. We wanted to make sure that we were looking at areas that we thought would be very effective under the issues currently under concern.

So, again, I think it is important that the Member for River Heights respects the work that is being done in both of these reviews and does not continually attempt to undermine them. * (14:20) Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I pointed out in Estimates that the press release said there were four Aboriginal Child and Family Services authori- ties. On questioning, the minister admitted that there were only three and there is one general authority. That was in a press release. The problem is that a terms of reference needs to contain a lot more than that and it should not have these kinds of errors in it.

So the problem here is that we are now two months out after the calling of this review and we still do not have a terms of reference. Mr. Speaker, I am going to give the minister another chance. Will the minister table today the terms of reference for this review? This is important, given that the interim report is due in the middle of June.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2495 Ms. Melnick: Well, it was good to hear that the Member for River Heights actually read the press release. There was about a month there when it did not appear that he had. We have said all along that there are four authorities. There is the northern First Nations authority, the southern First Nations author- ity, the Métis authority and the general authority, Mr. Speaker.

Again, it is very important that the Member for River Heights starts to take the review seriously, quits playing games with candles on desks, ringing bells, et cetera, supports the work that is being done by the reviewers and also supports the work that is being done by the people on the front line. We are dealing very seri ously with the reviews, both the external and the

section 4. The member is wrong. The interim report is not due the middle of June; it is due the end of June– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, these details are precisely why we need a proper terms of reference. We are two months into this review. We still do not have a terms of reference. I have read the press release many times and realized right away that there are problems with it, that it was not a terms of reference and that we need a proper terms of refer- ence. Yesterday, in Estimates, the minister said she did not have it with her at the moment.

Well, it is time that the minister produces it at this moment. I ask the minister: Will she table today the terms of reference for the extern al review into Child and Family Services? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, I believe I have tabled, probably a month and a half ago, the press release which outlines both who will be sitting on the reviews and what their terms of reference will be. I was led to believe a moment earlier that the Member for River Heights had actually read that. Perhaps he has only read one or two lines in it.

But, again, we have to recognize the work is underway according to what was laid out in that press release. It is very important that the member expresses concern for the situation of children in care in Manitoba, that he show that concern by respecting the work done in both of these reviews and for the front-line workers, and stops continually trying to undermine these very important reviews in our province. Alternative Energy Biofuel Mandate Mr.

Bidhu Jha (Radisson): It is an established fact that this government has made renewable green and clean energy development the central plank in Manitoba's economic development strategy. Yester- day, the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology attended a meeting in Regina with the federal and provincial ministers to discuss achieving a nation- wide 5 percent mandate of ethanol and biodiesel fuel by 2010. Can the minister inform the House and members about the benefits for Manitoba and how the mandate for biofuels fits Manitoba's clean energy strategy? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I had the opportunity of sharing information with the thre e federal ministers and numerous provincial ministers from across the country where we were able to discuss issues like the fact that Manitoba had one of the first biofuel mandates out.

There is a plant under construction that will not only provide up to 10 percent of the clean fuel for Manitoba, but will provide support and value-added to our farm producers, something that is very much in need, as well as our biodiesel initi- atives, as well as our turbine initiatives and wind farm initiatives that have not only provided green energy, but have provided finances and money in the pockets of farmers and pr oducers, one of our key components of our green strategy. Flooding–Assiniboine River Valley Compensation Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I listened carefully to the minister's response with regard to the Assiniboine Va lley. I regret, on behalf of the people in the Assiniboine Valley, the kind of blame game and response that we are getting from the government in a very serious situation. I want to ask the government, and whether it is the Minister of Agricultur e, the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) or the Premier (Mr. Doer) himself, who committed to meet with the people of the Assiniboine Valley, when that meeting will take place. Mr.

Speaker, the flooding has been going on for weeks now and we have not had the presence of the Premier at the site.

2496 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 It is time that somebody from the government took note of the serious situation in the Assiniboine Valley, and I ask the government today: When are they going to act? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): I regret that the member opposite took offence to the comments that I made with regard to his government's record on this particular issue, Mr. Speaker, but I want to assure the member that I have toured the Assiniboine Valley. I was in that area the day after the particular meeting that he was referring to.

I have spoken to those people in the area. We have indicated to them, the individuals that I spoke to, that we would be willing to meet with them. So the member opposite is wrong to say that we have not had discussion with those producers, and we will continue to work with them on the issues that are important to their livelihoods. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, letters are coming in from the municipalities asking for the government to start acknowledging that this is a serious issue in the province of Manitoba.

This is flooding that occurs because the Shellmouth Dam cannot handle the volume of water that comes in the spring from time to time. It is no different than the Red River that floods from time to time. These people are left blowing in the wind, and it is time that the Premier who made the commitment to go out there. Now I know the Minister of Agriculture was out there during Rural Forum, but the land was dry then, Mr. Speaker. Today that land is under water. It is time that they took action now.

I ask when the Premier and his minister, whether it is the Minister of Water Stewardship or the Minister of Agriculture, is going to meet with these people to ensure that they are adequately looked after. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): I think it is very important to put on the record that the operational procedures at the Shellmouth Dam have essentially not changed for the nearly 40 years that it has been in place. What happened, Mr. Speaker, this year as has happened in the past, was there was a combination, in this case, of the snow melt, but a significant storm in Saskatchewan.

What the Shellmouth Dam does, and I note that the former critic of Water Stewardship put this on the public record, that flooding in the Assiniboine River has been virtually halted since the construction of the Shellmouth Dam. By the way, this is the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) who made that comment. What happens, Mr. Speaker, is there is a controlled release that ensures there is not, in this case, 8,300 cfs– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the minister obviously reads from prepared notes, but he does not know the regime of the dam or understand how it operates.

Those of us who live in the area understand what is happening, Mr. Speaker. Municipalities understand what is happening. It is time that this government took some action. This is a serious matter. Yesterday, the federal government came through with money for farmers who were flooded last year. This year we have Assiniboine Valley farmers who are flooded and this government cannot get off its back end to go and visit with the farmers and ensure that they are looked after adequately. When will this happen, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of reading from prepared notes.

It is a question of putting on the record what the Member for Emerson himself stated, and that is that without the Shellmouth Dam there would have been dramatic flooding on the Assiniboine. The levels on the Assiniboine were maintained at a natural or below through controlled release. That was done through consultation with the Shellmouth Reservoir Regula- tion Liaison Committee. That has been there for many years. We acknowledge that this does lead to an extended period of time in which the water is in place.

But when you look at the 8,300 cfs that would have been there around April 17 or 18, I think it is really important for the member opposite, who should be raising concerns, Mr. Speaker, about the impacts of flooding anywhere, before he talks about artificial flooding should recognize that the Shellmouth Dam prevented major flooding on the Assiniboine. The words of the Member for Emerson, in this case, one time I actually agree with him. * (14:30) Highway 12 Park Road Intersection Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, according to a Manitoba highways document, the intersection of Highway 12 and Park Road in the community of Steinbach is the site of the second- highest number of annual traffic accidents in the province. In fact, the highest number of traffic

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2497 accidents is just down the road at Highway 12 and 52. I know that the City of Steinbach and repre- sentatives have met with the minister of highways a number of times over the last six years. They have met with the Premier (Mr. Doer). They have gotten lots of expressions of sympathy, but over the last six years they have gotten no indication when this intersection of Highway 12 and Park Road is going to be fixed. They have come to me, finally, asking for answers from this minister.

So I say to the minister: When is he going to ensure that this collision corner is going to be fixed, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I am glad today the member opposite is not asking questions about kangaroos or Australia like the last time he stood up and asked questions related to transportation. I want to just say that we are working closely, Mr. Speaker, with the community of Steinbach but also with many, many other communities in Manitoba that have transportation challenges related to all the work that was not done in the 1990s.

But the nerve of the member opposite who voted against the budget that had a $29-million increase, voted against it. I say shame on that member. When I visit the community of Steinbach I will be reminding them that there was an opportunity here to support a document, a $29-million increase, and he voted against it. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Doug Armour Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize the accomplishments of a resident in my constituency who was recently inducted into the Curling Hall of Fame on May 7.

Doug Armour was born and raised in Souris, Manitoba, and it was there that he learned to excel at a sport that is part of Canadian culture. Mr. Armour learned to curl at the age of 13 and played in his first British Consols playdown in 1978. Since then he has appeared in an amazing 35 provin- cial championships, including 16 men's provincials, 7 senior men's, 11 mixed and 1 masters. He has represented the province on a total of five occasions in four different levels of competition. To go along with his impressive record of appearances is an even more impressive level of success at the sport he excelled in.

Not content to simply represent our province, he also has enjoyed a great level of success in doing so. In 1982, he was third on the team skipped by Mel Logan representing Manitoba at the Labatt Brier and made it all the way to the semi-final, surviving a three-way playoff along the way before eventually suffering defeat. Doug, himself, was voted the all-star third at the Brier. Since that time, Mr. Armour won both the 2003 Manitoba Senior Men's Provincial Championship, and last year in his very first year of eligibility he won the Provincial Masters Level Championship.

He carried this on to victory at the Canadian Open Masters Championship that same year in Brandon. Mr. Speaker, I would once again like to congratulate Mr. Armour on his lengthy record of successes and the recent induction to the Curling Hall of Fame. I cannot think of a more worthy recipient of such an honour. Thank you. Community Centre Volunteers Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, spring and summer are busy times of the year in communities throughout the province. Community centres are a hub of much of this activity during these busy months.

I rise to recognize the many volunteers of my constituency of Radisson and the province at large who volunteer countless hours of their time coaching sports teams, organizing events and developing community centres for the well-being of residents in the communities. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize specifically the volunteers at the Park City West Community Centre. Park City West is run entirely by a dedicated team of volunteers. It offers many programs to youth and adults including mini-s occer, ringette, hockey, female hockey, hardball, softball, inline hockey.

For adults it offers adult sports and bingo. Park City West also hosts special events and is available for hall rental. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to attend many events at Park City West including the recent AGM. For their contributi on to our community, I would like to recognize several members of the board of directors of this community centre: Neil Ajudhia, Leo Nelson, Scott Van Alstyne, Scott Donald, Dana Hay, Carol Donald, Jim Desjardins, Susan Desjardins, Brenda Godson, Tim Godson,

2498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Doug Werboweski, Sylvia Streilien, Mark Hodgson, Michelle, Greg Spitula, Le s Kauk, Gary Olsen, Lee Smith, Jim Donaldson, Robyne Sharp, Daryl Desjarlais, Georgette King and Jim Voth. On behalf of the members, I thank many members and many other volunteers who give their time to the community centres in Radisson as well as the rest of the province. Community centres are active and enjoyable places to be throughout the season. I also encourage the public to get involved in their community centres and help make our communities better. Thank you very much, Mr.

Speaker. Harvest Moon Society Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to rise in the House today to inform this Chamber about an exciting little community in my constituency, located in the beautiful Pembina Valley, Clearwater, Manitoba. Clearwater is home to the Harvest Moon Society and the Harvest Moon Festival. The Harvest Moon Society is a non-profit, volunteer-run organization that relies on funding generated from the annual Harvest Moon Festival as well as the rental of the school facilities in which it is housed.

The Clearwater School closed in 2001 but has now been reopened as a rental facility and learning centre. The school has been host to several academic institutions including the University of Manitoba. The university has offere d courses such as basic organic crop inspector and organic livestock inspector courses, along with others. Participants taking

part in this tremendous opportunity come from all areas of Canada and the United States. Recent attendees were from Saskatchewan, Alberta, Arizona, British Columbia, Newfoundland, Ontario, Minnesota, Yukon and, of course, Manitoba. The Harvest Moon Society is a learning centre that works toward strengthening and building linkages between urban and rural areas that helps empower those that are marginalized, especially youth, elders and women, and that creates strategies and working examples that generate innovative responses to problems confronting communities and their surrounding environmen ts.

This is carried out using a diversity of grass roots and participatory practices. The Harvest Moon Festival is an annual fundraising event for the Harvest Moon Society held in September of each year. The festival features musical acts, workshops, natu re walks, farm tours, a trade fair, activities for the kids and much, much more. The Harvest Moon Festival is intended to increase awareness of agriculture issues such as the role of farming in our lives and the importance of sustainable food production and the survival of rural communities as we currently know them.

The festival also aims to build relationships and create dialogue between rural and urban people. Foremost, it is people coming together and volunteering their time and energy to celebrate rural life, locally produced food and the farmers that grow it. Thank you very much. Carl Scholl and Donald Quang Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to recognize two exceptional students from the Maples Collegiate. Carl Scholl and Donald Quang won silver and gold medals respectively at the recent Skills Canada competition held at Red River College.

While Carl competed in the auto service category and Donald in the autobody repair category, they both had to perform a variety of tasks in a short amount of time. Both students distinguished them- selves against the other competitors. In addition, both categories' written components were mandatory. Mr. Speaker, competitions such as these are important because they stress not only the technical and skilled nature of the trades but they give it the profile they so richly dese rve.

Also, in recognizing the expert work being done by the students, we can take an important step in acknowledging the importance of their education as well as the significance of the contributions made by trades- people. It is essential that youth be aware of both the rewarding nature of trades and skilled labour as well as the possibilities that awaits them for future employment. I would like to say that Skills Canada, a national organization that promotes the skilled trades and technologies to Canadian youth, is to be commended for organizing these types of competition.

I would also like to congratulate Carl and Donald on their achievements and wish them the best of luck in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:40)

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2499 OlyWest Hog Processing Plant Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to call for the establishment of an agri- industrial park outside of Winnipeg where the OlyWest hog processing and rendering plant can locate along with other similar heavy industrial agricultural operations. Today there were many people at City Hall with concerns about the proposed location of the OlyWest hog processing and rendering plant in the St. Boniface Industrial Park. There have been many concerns raised about the proposed St. Boniface Industrial Park site.

These include noxious odours coming from the hog plant and problems for adjacent businesses to such an extent that Winnipeg may lose many high tech and other jobs. In Brandon and in Neepawa there are hog plants which are located outside the urban area. Winnipeg deserves no less than Brandon and Neepawa. There can be a win-win situation with the OlyWest plant in an agri-industrial park near Winnipeg.

I call on the government to work co-operatively with the City of Winnipeg and the rural munici- palities outside of Winnipeg to establish such an agri-industrial park where OlyWest and other similar businesses can locate. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call for second readings of the following bills: 31, 20, 14, 14, 25, to be followed by Committee of Supply. SECOND READINGS Bill 31–The Animal Diseases Amendment Act Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade (Mr. Smith), that Bill 31, The Animal Diseases Amendment Act, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill and I table the message. Motion presented. Ms. Wowchuk: The bill does amend The Animal Diseases Act. As members of the House know, we have done some reorganization of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives. As a result, it is necessary to make some minor housekeeping amendments to this bill.

The first of these includ es replacing the director of Veterinary Services with a general director for the purposes of the act. A new provision is added for the purposes of animal welfare slaughter. The director under the act is authorized to order healthy animals to be destroyed in certain extraordinary circum- stances. These might occur if there is a border closure and there is a disruption to flow of animals to normal markets and this results in a backlog or overcrowding on farms in Manitoba. Another example, Mr.

Speaker, is that, if animals are aban- doned or the owner is unlikely to be able to care for them, then they may be ordered to be destroyed as well. To help control the disease, inspectors are permitted to stop a vehicle that is transporting animals and to collect information from the driver about the animals. New regulations may prescribe where and when those drivers must report to an inspector, what information they must give and how the department may use and disclose this informa- tion.

Other regulations may be made about when and to whom the department may disclose information it collects from farms and from other commercial places where animals are kept. These provisions would also enable geographic zoning to be implemented whereby separate disease- controlled areas are created for the purpose of both controlling the disease and ascribing the zones' animal health status. This is very important because it will reduce the impacts of an animal disease outbreak in other provinces and in this province.

I can indicate to you that there have been discussions with the industry on this issue, both the livestock and the hog industry, and they are supportive of this bill. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to comment on this bill, Bill 31, The Animal Diseases Amendment Act. First of all, let me say to the minister that I have called for these sorts of changes and these sorts of provisions for some time, going back a number of years.

They are clearly ve ry important that we in Manitoba be in a position where we can, in fact, regionalize a disease like foot-and-mouth disease. At the current time, we would have severe difficulty if

2500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 there was a case of foot-and-mouth disease in Prince Edward Island, for example, with no indication whatsoever that that disease was anywhere near Manitoba. Under the current regulations, it is almost certain that we would have to essentially put a rope around all of Canada, instead of being able to put a barrier around just Prince Edward Island or at least, for our purposes, be able to make sure that Manitoba was not affected if there was a single case of foot- and-mouth disease in Prince Edward Island. So, clearly, Mr.

Speaker, there are some impor- tant provisions within this bill that we would certainly support.

We think that it is about time that we moved on this because, whether we are dealing with foot-and-mouth disease or other animal diseases that are communicable, it is very important that we be able to delineate an affected area, that we be able to cordon off that area so that we ensure No. 1, that in the case of Manitoba, we do not bring infection in here; No. 2, that we can track it down very quickly if there are animals moving in; and No. 3, that anything with any possibility of being infected, of course, we do not want to move it out to be able to send it anywhere else.

So these measures are clearly needed and are very badly needed for conditions like foot- and-mouth disease. I want to comment for a moment on the potential application. As the minister knows, we have gone through a period with a lot of concern about bovine spongiform encephalitis. Indeed, could this be applied in the case of BSE? Could we regionalize a part of Canada? As we are all aware, there have been cases within Canada, but no cases of BSE in Manitoba.

Now, BSE, of course, is quite a different type of disease than foot-and-mouth disease, and it is not as clear because the origin of the BSE, for the most part, appears to have been in contaminated food to the extent that we know that it was contaminated feed probably that the animals in Alberta had been exposed to. Although there is not perhaps full certainty in this matter, that is the suggestion that the reviews have made to date. That clearly in that sense would need to track down the source of the contaminated feed.

BSE may be transmissible from mother to calf perhaps, but usually the source is eating something that is contaminated with the bovine spongiform encephalitis prion. The potential application of this in cases like BSE certainly needs to be explored. I would hope that, when it comes to committee stage, the minister would ensure that there are people who present at committee stage and provide us some advice to the extent of which BSE could be region- alized.

Are the measures here adequate to be able to do that, or would we have to do other measures in addition to what is in this particular act and in these particular measures? * (14:50) So I would hope that the minister will try to arrange that we have somebody presenting who can talk specifically to the circumstances around BSE as a disease that we would like to be able to regionalize, but the ability to regionalize it may be quite different than it would be the regionalization of a disease like foot-and-mouth disease.

The second point that I would like to make: clearly, as I understand it, the minister is setting up this bill and looking at being able to regionalize, in the first instance, a disease in western Canada as opposed to eastern Canada.

In that context, being able to set up at West Hawk Lake an inspection point which would ensure that trucks with animals in them passing that inspection point would be trackable, or there would be an inspection that would allow us to make sure that, if there were an epidemic or were an instance of foot-and-mouth disease in Canada, we would be able to have the approach, we would be able to have the tools, the ability to guarantee to other countries, which is what is critical, that we would be able to stop transmission of foot-and- mouth disease at the Ontario-Manitoba border.

This, clearly, is a positive step if we can achieve that, and in my reading of this bill, certainly the measures here should allow us to achieve that. They will take a little bit of working out so that we can demonstrate to the international community that we can actually do what we can, but that I think and would hope can be done, and that is why it is so important to set this up in advance of a case of, for instance, foot-and-mouth disease coming into Canada or, indeed, North America. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is an issue here, and that is this: From a Manitoba perspective and indeed from a Canadian perspective, we would like to be able with something like foot-and-mouth disease to be able to drop a barrier across the Canada-U.S. border. It is not entirely clear with a condition like foot-and-mouth disease the extent that we would be able to do that, but, certainly, there are the border controls at the Manitoba-U.S. border that this is within the realm of the possible. Certainly, we would like to be in a position, where there was a case in Texas or Rhode Island or wherever, that we would

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2501 be able to separate Canada from the United States and be able to regionalize if there was a disease like foot-and-mouth disease. Now, even if you cannot do it for foot-and-mouth disease, you can certainly do it for a number of other transmissible diseases, and that is certainly a benefit in terms of this legislation. The next question, Mr.

Speaker, deals with if you are able to, even for certain diseases, to set up a barrier at the Ontario-Manitoba border, if we are able with the Canada-U.S. border to be able to set up essentially a barrier there, the next question is are there conditions, or is it possible for any diseases to set up a system at the Manitoba-Saskatchewan border? That clearly is going to be a lot more difficult. There is just no doubt about that. It is going to be a lot more difficult because there are a lot more roads and a lot more potential for people to be transporting animals back and forth between Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

It may be more possible to use the Rocky Mountains as a barrier, right? And to be able to isolate the Prairie Provinces from Victoria, Vancouver area and British Columbia right along the west coast. Certainly that would be desirable, but it is important to be able to look at whether, under certain conditions in the future, there may be a possibility of being able to segregate at the Manitoba- Saskatchewan border some diseases. Certainly, let us look and go back and talk about BSE, for example, which was present in the cattle from Alberta.

It would have been highly desirable for us in Manitoba to be able to regionalize this condi- tion and to protect our fa rmers from the concerns over the BSE having an impact and the BSE closing the border to movement of any animals out of Manitoba. This circumstance of being able to regionalize, of course, is very different for different diseases. We know this because with tuberculosis, which we have a problem in certain animals in the Riding Mountain National Park area, that the regionalization concept can work in a different kind of way.

So, being able to set up in an appropriate way a system which can protect Manitoba producers in the event of animal diseases, certainly this is something which, in general, I have indicated that we are certainly ready to support and to move forward. We look forward to this bill getting to committee stage and being able to hear from producers, to be able to hear from those who are experts in animal diseases about the needs and whether we, in fact, have some provisions here where we need, in fact, to improve the provisions which are set out in the act.

I am going to talk particularly now about one of the areas where I think that we need to look pretty carefully. If you look at this bill, one of the clauses or one of the areas of concern is that individuals empowered under this act, directors and inspectors, can enter at any reasonable time without a warrant any place or premises wher e there is an animal or any vehicle which an animal could occupy and be transported in. The issue he re is that these powers, from what I can see, in fact, are needed to be able to do the inspections that have to be carried out under the act.

But the question is: What are the limits of the powers? Can these powers be abused under some circumstances? It is good to be able to have the powers to be able to make sure that we can regionalize an infectious disease, a foot-and-mouth disease, but it certainly is not a good idea for there to be unlimited powers on behalf of the government or people acting for the government which are not subject to any checks and balances. In this regard, I would like to draw the minister's attention to the need, I would suggest, for the minister to look under this

section at the need for there to be some appeal or review body to make sure that these powers are not used in a way that they should not be used. The co ncern here is, where you have very major powers given to the government and to representatives of the government, directors and inspectors, that farmers do not want people entering their property, entering their vehicles, without reasonable basis for this being justified. I think the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire) would agree that what this needs is some approach that will allow for review, appeal of such decisions.

Certainly, that kind of appeal or review process would be quite beneficial if it were part of this act. * (15:00) I would hope that the minister, in looking at the circumstance here, would ensure that there is a review or appeal process under this act that would enable–we are talking 31. This is The Animal Diseases Amendment Act. This deals with regionalization, right, and there are very broad and stiff inspection powers under this act as the Member for–[interjection] What? No, no.

That is why I talked about BSE, being quite different from foot-and- mouth disease earlier on, that when you look at animal diseases you may need slightly different

2502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 measures for regionalizing BSE than you would for other diseases, okay? That is why I hope that the minister, when we get to committee stage will bring some individuals who are experts on BSE, so that, in fact, we can have a discussion and make sure that the measures under this act are going to be adequate for us to deal with BSE as well as foot-and-mouth disease and various other infectious diseases. [interjection] I think the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr.

Cummings) would agree that it is important to have this kind of legislation, that it is to make sure that the powers under this legislation have the proper checks and balances, that the powers are not too great on the part of government and that there are the appropriate checks and balances on the part of government. Now there are, I think, some issues here and some questions I would ask the minister. She did not tell us in her statement to what extent she has engaged in stakeholder consultations.

Has there been strong consultation with the Manitoba cattle pro- ducers, for example, in the development of these amendments, or will the government proceed without looking carefully and consulting with the Manitoba Cattle Producers Association members with regard to these inspection powers, for example, to make sure that there are checks and balances which farmers and others are comfortable with? It would have been helpful if the minister had laid out her expectation of the cost, and I do not remember costs being assign ed in the budget. So the issue here is what will it cost, the expected implementation.

Where are the costs going to be allocated and what are those costs going to be? Is the government going to propose, for example, another unfair levy on agricultural producers to pay for the administration of the act? We are not told that. There does not appear to be that in this amendment, but we want to make sure and we would like the minister's assurance that there is not going to be an unfair levy levied by Order-in-Council or in next year's budget, or wherever, because, cl early, that would be important.

There are not clauses here in terms of compensation of agricultur al producers, livestock producers, if, for example, there were damages caused by directors or inspectors to their property. With all the good intents and will in the world, the last thing we want, for example, are inspectors coming into a property an d actually spreading the disease because they have been in contact with it. That would be a major, major issue, and that is an example of where you would need to have some sort of protection for producers.

I think that the broad discretionary powers that are given to the minister under this act need to be looked at to make sure that there are not adverse consequences and to make sure that adequate protec- tions are laid out. There are pretty good standards for this, and, certainly, from what we are aware, the record of veterinarians in this respect is pretty good, but it would be helpful to have some information from the minister on these important issues. There are issues arou nd government inspectors and others going on property, property damage, privacy invasions.

Is there a possibility of tort lawsuits and others? We are just asking the question here. People have the right to be secure from unreasonable search and seizure. Suppose, what happens if an inspector comes on the property and finds something which then results in laying of a charge which is totally unrelated to this kind of matter? I think that we want farmers to be honest and so on, right? We know that most farmers are. We do not expect there to be problems in this regard.

But, clearly, if an inspector goes in to look for a problem with infectious disease and finds some other matter, what are the powers of the inspectors? What is the duty of inspectors to report? What is the risk to a farmer? Can this clause be used for an inspector to inspect for something else than the infectious disease? Those are issues which clearly we should have some answers to. I think that is only fair so that we know up front what the situation is. Their review process I have talked about and the general perspective on this act, as I have said, is that it is about time we had these measures here.

I know the Member for Pembina has quite a number of livestock producers. Certainl y, they would like to be protected from animal diseases and make sure that we can regionalize this. I was visiting, not recently but quite some time ago, a feedlot operation in the Member for Pembina's constituency for example, and we need to make sure that we can protect producers. We want to do this in a way that is not overly intrusive or creating huge problems for people, but is certainly effective. So what I would say, Mr. Speaker, is that, when I look carefully at this bill, we are ready to support this bill.

We would like it to be looked at very critically at the committee st age. But, certainly from a perspective of being able to move on to the next

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2503 step, I think it would make reasonable sense for this bill to move on at this juncture and get the critical review at committee stage. Of course, we have a lot of other business that we are looking at. Some of the bills that are already beyond second reading, going to committee stage, certainly need attention as well and should be moved through promptly and quickly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded for the honourable Member for Ste. Rose. (Mr. Cummings), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to.

Bill 20–The Family Farm Protection Amendment and Farm Lands Ownership Amendment Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that Bill 20, The Family Farm Protection Amendment and Farm Lands Ownership Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection des exploitations agricoles familiales et la

Loi sur la propriété agricole, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. * (15:10) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), I want to indicate this proposal is to amend the two existing statutes, being The Family Farm Protection Act and The Farm Lands Ownership Act, by removing all references to an executive director or chief executive officer position and replacing these with a more standard reference to staffing appointed in accord- ance with The Civil Service Act.

This is consistent with other statutes administered by Manitoba Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives, as reflective of the recent reorganizational changes in the department structure and staff responsibilities. A further amendment replaces an outdated liability provision with one that is consistent with other provincial statutes . The amendment provides protection from liability for members of the board, employees and others acting under the authority of the act, unless the person was acting in bad faith. The third aspect of the bill, Mr.

Speaker, is to incorporate gender-neutral wording that is standard in provincial legislation. With those few words, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the continuing debate of this and other related matters. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. Bill 14–The Water Rights Amendment Act Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Stewardship): I move, seconded by the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux), that Bill 14, The Water Rights Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les droits d'utilisation de l'eau, be now read a second time and referred to a committee of the House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of the bill, and I am tabling the message. Motion presented. Mr. Ashton: This bill responds to a significant concern in many areas of the province, Mr. Speaker, throughout rural Manitoba in particular, and it provides the legislative tools required for the efficient and expeditious enforcement of illegal and unlicensed drainage and other infractions of The Water Rights Act.

In particular, it provides for the appointment of officers to enforce The Water Rights Act. It gives officers and other authorized persons the power to conduct in spections and searches, authorities that they need to administer to determine compliance and to enforce the act. It provides them protection from liability when fulfilling their duties. Once enacted and officers appointed, we plan to amend to the offences notice regulation under The

Summary Convictions Act to provide for ticketing for certain offences unde r The Water Rights Act, thus allowing more efficient enforcement of the act. That allows orders issued under the act to be served by registered mail thus providing a well-accepted option for serving an order and protection from liability. It modernizes the language of several provi- sions in the act. The key principle of this legislation is to use the kind of approach that we use in other areas, The Highway Traffic Act, for example, to ensure that we reinforce the need for licensed drainage.

This is very much a complaint we have received from municipal- ities, from conservation districts and from producers. We believe this legislation will go a long way to ensuring that we do have a protection of those

2504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Manitobans, many Manitobans, the vast majority, who do follow a licensing system, Mr. Speaker. So I do urge members of this House to support Bill 14. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Goertzen), that we adjourn debate. Motion agreed to. House Business Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Just before the me mber moves second reading, would you please canvass the House to see if there is agreement to change the Estimates sequence for 255 to move Health before Ag and Food, with the change to apply permanently? Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement to change the Estimates sequence for Room 255 to move the Estimates for Health before the Estimates of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives with the change to apply permanently? [Agreed] Mr.

Mackintosh: Would you also see if there is leave for Industry, Economic Development and Mines to be considered in 254 this afternoon in place of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave for the Estimates of Industry, Economic Development and Mines to be considered in Room 254 this afternoon in place of the Estimates for Aborigin al and Northern Affairs? [Agreed] Okay, we are dealing with Bill 24, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Government Cheque Cashing Fees). An Honourable Member: Right here. Mr. Speaker: Good timing.

Bill 24–The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Government Cheque Cashing Fees) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak)– and we are doing the payday lenders or the Cheque Cashing, 24, The Consumer Protection Act (Government Cheque Cashing Fees)– Mr. Speaker: Order. You have to– Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr.

Chomiak)–I was in mid-flight on that when you corrected me–The Consumer Protection Act (Government Cheque Cashing Fees); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection du consom- mateur (frais d'encaisse ment des chèques du gouvernement), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill and I table the message. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the honourable Minister of Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak), that Bill 24, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Government Cheque Cashing Fees), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill and the message has been tabled. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, Bill 24, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act with respect to cheque cashing fees that need to be set for the cashing of government cheques. Mr. Speaker, these amendments in Bill 24 establish maximum fees that may be charged for cashing government cheques by the federal govern- ment, the Province of Manitoba or an agency of those governments prescribed by regulation which will protect Manitoba consumers from excessive charges when they cash these cheques.

Complaints about cheque cashing fees as high as 30 percent of the face value of the cheque have been received. It is essential that limits on fees be established so that consumers receive the maximum benefit from these cheques. Mr. Speaker, the Legislature provides for the Public Utilities Board to set a maximum cheque cashing fee through a public process that will permit consumers, business and community stakeholders to comment on what the costs are and what is a reasonable amount to be charged for cashing government cheques.

The PUB will hold a hearing and may consider information about the operating expenses and the financial risks taken by cheque cashers and other relevant matters. Following the hearing, the board will make an order setting the maximum fee that may be charged to cash a government cheque. The changes proposed will apply to all businesses that cash government cheques.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2505 With these comments, I am pleased to recom- mend this bill for consideration. Thank you. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Cullen), that debate now be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 25–The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Payday Loans) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister responsible for Energy, Science and Technology (Mr. Chomiak), that Bill 25, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (Payday Loans); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection du consommateur (prêts de dépannage), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor has been advised of this bill and I table the message. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, amendments proposed here to The Consumer Protection Act that Bill 25 address payday lending which will protect Manitoba borrowers from excessive ch arges and questionable business practices that have been identified as problems in this industry. * (15:20) Currently, the Criminal Code prohibits lenders from charging more than 60 percent interest, including all the administrative charges. Administra- tive charges and other fees are typically added to these loans by payday lenders to cover the cost of doing business.

Because payday loans are for small amounts for short terms, it is very easy for the interest charges and fees to add up to rates that could be far in excess of the Criminal Code rate. Because of the demand for these loans and the gaps left by traditional financial institutions in serving the community, it is clear there is a place for services of this nature.

This legislation provides for the setting of fees through a public process by the Public Utililities Board that will permit borrowers, businesses and community stakeholders to comment on what costs are and what is a reasonable amount to be charged for these types of loans. The PUB will hold a hearing and consider a number of matters before making a determination regarding the rates that may be charged for a payday loan.

The board may consider information about the operating expenses of lenders, the terms and conditions of loans, the circumstances and credit options available to borrowers, regulation of payday lenders elsewhere and other relevant matters. Following the hearing, the board will make an order, setting the maximum cost of credit that may be charged for a payday loan, fees for the extension or renewal of a payday loan and the amount that may be charged if a payday loan is in default. Mr. Speaker, the Criminal Code needs to be amended to permit us to regulate these fees.

We have requested such an amendment from the federal government. This bill includes prohibitions intended to stop the practice of ro llover loans which can increase the costs of thes e loans dramatically. As well, amendments will prohibit wage assignments, title loans and concurrent loans from the same lender. A 48-hour, cooling-off period is provided during which the loan may be cancelled without penalty.

The payday lender will be required to give the borrower written information at the time the loan is made, including a statement that the loan is a high- cost loan, and notice of the borrower's right to cancel the loan within 48 hours. The amendments will require that lenders be licensed and bonded. The Consumers' Bureau is provided with inspection powers that will be important to ensure that lenders are complying with these requirements.

The bill also includes penalty provisions which will require that the total amount of all fees charged be refund ed to the borrower where the lender has charged unauthorized fees. In addition to the amendments included in this bill, Mr. Speaker, changes to The Consumer Protection Act that passed last year relating to the disclosure of the cost of credit, increases to enforce- ment penalties and the introduction of administrative penalties will also be applicable to payday lenders. Mr. Speaker, with these comments, I am pleased to recommend this bill for consideration of the House. Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), that debate now be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

2506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Mr. Speaker: We will now move on to Committee of Supply. Would the Chairs please report to the appropriate rooms. Executive Council will be in the Chamber; Room 254 will be Industry, Economic Development and Mines; and Room 255 will be Family Services and Housing. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INDUSTRY, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND MINES Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Economic Development and Mines. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? The floor is yours, Mr. Minister. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. This is my second year that I have had the privilege of making opening remarks in my capacity of Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines. I am very pleased to report that 2005 was a very good year for the Manitoba economy and our real economic growth in 2005 was 2.9 percent.

This growth is expected to continue throughout 2006, and many indications of continued good economic health reflected our performance to date and investments to date. Just some examples of this are the average weekly earnings rose 3.5 percent compared to Canada's 3.1 percent. Manitoba's unemployment rate last year averaged 4.8 percent, which was the second lowest in the country and the lowest rate since 1976.

Our youth unemployment rate averaged about 9.7 percent, the second lowest in the country. * (15:30) Over the last six years, from 2000 to 2005, youth employment has grown by 6,000, averaging about 1,000 more youth employed per year. This compares to 1989 to 1999 when youth employment actually fell by a total of about 13,300 or 1,200 per year. Just some stats on youth: In 1989 to 1999, youth popu- lation fell. The youth population fell by 18,000 or 1,600 per year. Over the last six years, 2000-2005, youth population has grown by 7,800 or 1,300 per year. So youth are staying here and more youth are being employed.

While our youth employment performance has been positive, we know we have to continue to work hard, make sure that we have opportunities for youth and keep people here for the long term. Other simple, positive notes that we have heard is there are 14,600 new private-sector jobs that were created in the last 12 months. Since taking office in 1999, four out of every five jobs, 76.9 percent, created in Manitoba have been full-time jobs and nearly two out of every three jobs, 65.2 percent, have been created in the private sector.

An example of areas that we are working in is the manufacturing sector, which continues to grow following an exceptional 2004. Manufacturing shipments rose 3.5 percent above Canada's rate. We are going to continue to work with the manufacturing industry with things like the Composites Innovation Centre, the R&D tax credit, the Advanced Manufacturing Initiative and other things. Also, we have increased retail sales tax on equipment, which really has been very posit ive as far as businesses' investment. Exports have increased 3.7 percent and exports U.S. are up 5.3 percent, which is above the national rate.

We do have some challenges with the Canadian dollar, so we want to work with the manufacturers and with people who are investing in the province. In 2005 capital investment increased 3.9 percent, with private and public investments both going up. One of the clearest signs of positive growth for the future, though, is the StatsCan wh o talked about the capital investment increases in 2006. Our capital investment expectations are 14.6, the highest level among any of the provinces. By comparison, Canada's overall rate is less than half at 6.1 percent.

So this is good because businesses are investing and investing for the future. We have got lots of different projects that have happened. MTS Centre has happened. We just opened up the Credit Union Central, Polo Park, H&H Trailer sales, a number of new life sciences developments and Richardson Foods, et cetera, of which we are very, very happy. That is in addition to the airport, the floodway, new hydro construction, et cetera. So things are doing well. Over the last three years, we have done well and hope to continue to do well. Life sciences is a good area.

Other areas where we have done extremely well is the film industry and others. Over the last three years, we have continued to set records of profits as a share of GDP. In 2003,

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2507 corporate profits accounted for 9.6 percent of the GDP, surpassing the previous high set in 1981 at 9.2 percent. So that is very good. So businesses are doing okay. In 1999, we had the second highest small business tax rate in the country. We want to continue, we have continued to cut that almost in every budget. What we now have is cut the small business tax rate, the threshold, by half so that has now gone from $200,000 to $400,000.

We have announced the tax rate for small business will be reduced to 3 percent on January 1, 2007, the second lowest rate in the country. So we have gone from the second-highest to the second-lowest rate. That will have been a reduction in small business taxes of 63 percent since 1999. So things are moving to help people. We have also worked with the Canada/Manitoba small business centre to do a number of initiatives that I hope to profile. I think that is good for our economy because the vast majority of businesses in Manitoba are small business.

We have done more on business immigration, this Young Farmer Program, et cetera, and we hope to continue to move that forward because it has been reasonably successful so far. We also have BizCoach that was just introduced, which is trying to get young people tied to more experienced people so that they can get mentors and reach their full potential, and we are trying to see how this is working. This is something that was suggested from the Chambers of Commerce and CFIB, and we are trying to see how we can work with that.

I would be pleased to provide more details on this very, very successful program called BizCoach, that has been run out of the Canada/Manitoba small business centre by the very capable staff there. We have also worked to develop a single business gateway Web site which provides business with easy access to a whole range of services, rather than going to a number of different organizations. I know that the member opposite, when he was in Cabinet, knew a great deal about the mining and minerals sector, and, because of the prices, we have had record high exploration.

It has really done well as far as our metals and mining sectors, and we are cautiously optimistic that will continue in the future along with the new oil discoveries. So, when you look at the oil discoveries around Sinclair, we have gone a huge increase in the amount of oil production, wells drilled and success in that area. We also expect that San Gold will soon pour its first gold bar. That will be an exciting thing hopefully happening this summer.

We have lots of mineral exploration by Crowflight Minerals at Wabowden, Lynn Lake Nickel Mining at Lynn Lake, Mustang Minerals, along with Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, De Beers and Stornoway, et cetera. So we have lots of exploration for all sorts of minerals. MEAP, the mine exploration program continues to be very, very successful and supported by industry. The other thing we have done is we have set up a prospector developers' course for Aboriginal people as well as trying to encourage employment.

So we have done very, very well, and I understand that the Bissett Mine has about 60 percent local Aboriginal people employed there, and that is a very positive thing. We are also working on the orphaned and abandoned mines where we are trying to clean up mistakes that happened far, far in the past, before I was born, and we will hopefully have some good announcements on that, and that would be very, very nice to see that. The interesting

part is the Fraser Institute Survey of Mining Exploration ranked Manitoba third in the world for both our minerals policy and the quality of our geological database, and that is stuff that has happened over decades, over two successive governments, and it continues to improve off the work of other governments. We also want to continue to work and consult with different organi- zations, and I will continue to do that to hear what people have to say about expanding the industry. So thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and with that I look forward to re sponding to questions from the opposition. Mr.

Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Ste. Rose, have any opening comments? Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, my comments will be brief. First of all, some of the numbers that the minister just put on the record, we may challenge some of those as we go along.

I think that given my personal experience in the things that I see happening in rural Manitoba, I am not as convinced that we are keeping our youth, particularly in that part of our province, but I would be interested in getting a better understanding of how we have achieved or should be achieving further growth and opportunity in the mining and mineral sector.

2508 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 Obviously, the minister would be disappointed if I did not have some further questions related to Crocus and the responsibilities of some of which I appreciate occurred before he arrived on the scene in this department but, nevertheless, an object of attention for a lot of people in the province right now. I do have one question about procedure that hopefully we can agree to off the hop.

I would hope that the minister would agre e that we can take–while I will attempt and I hope he would appreciate that as we go through the supplementary information as it is followed and as presented, I would like to reserve the opportunity to have a global discussion as we go along. * (15:40) Mr. Rondeau: I would fully agree with a global discussion on the provision that, if it is something on the oil and gas industry, you give me warning, because most of those people are out in Virden or in the Virden area. So, if you give me a day's warning, then that would be okay.

Or, we can talk to the person via phone or something like this, because I would not want to have them on call or bring them into Winnipeg unless we are going to discuss that. So, if you agree to give me a little bit of notice, I guess it is three hours from here to Virden, if you could give me some notice, preferably the day before, and we have agreement with that so I do not abuse the staff's work, then I have no difficulty with a global discussion. Mr.

Chairperson: Is it agreed that the questions for this department will follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questions have been completed? Mr. Cummings: Correct, and I will agree with the minister that there are times when in this process we abuse the staff and sometimes that is a negative reflection on the minister more than it is on the process.

So I think I will give this minister his credit that he has staff that are gainfully employed not close by and that I would hope that I can give him–we have got to spend some time on it, so perhaps let us agree that tomorrow would be the day if that works for his staff. Otherwise, I believe if we are still sitting we would be sitting Friday morning. So, depending on what happens tomorrow, I think we probably should have it tomorrow and then go from there. Or is it entirely in my hands if we will be sitting Friday morning, I guess is what I am asking the minister?

Are there agreements between the House leaders that I am unaware of? Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me, I will just interject. I take it that the Member for Ste. Rose, the critic, has completed his– Mr. Cummings: Well, let met clarify. Much to my chagrin, my House leader is looking over my shoulder here and I do not know if that is a sign of trust or distrust, but let us go with Friday morning for the oil and gas people. That would work for everybody's schedule, I think.

This is a bit of a departure from the normal and I want to emphasize that we want to do it out of respect for the workload that the staff probably has at this time of year. Mr. Rondeau: Yes, we will bring the former director in for tomorrow morning, or when it is necessary Friday morning. Mr. Chairperson: I understand that we have agreed to have a global discussion on our Estimates? [Agreed] Before we go ahead, under Manitoba practice, debate on the Minister's Salary is the last item con- sidered for department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly we shall now defer consideration of line item 10.1.(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution 10.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce his staff in attendance. Will the staff please come forward. Mr. Cummings: Well, I understand that we are leaving the Minister's Salary, but not of this office, so we can inquire of his staff. Basically, I have inquired of his personal staff the numbers that professional, technical, administrative support– Mr. Chairperson: That is correct. Only the Minister's Salary will be deferred to the end. Mr.

Cummings: Can the minister, for the record, tell us how many and who are his personal staff? Mr. Chairperson: Yes, would the minister introduce his staff, please? Mr. Rondeau: We have Hugh Eliasson, who is the deputy minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines, and Craig Halwachs, who is director of finance and admin–I always get titles wrong. We can do the question now.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2509 Mr. Chairperson: Member for Ste. Rose, the floor is open. Mr. Cummings: Thank you for introducing your lead departmental staff. For the record, would the minister tell us who his personal staff are? Mr. Rondeau: My personal staff is Chad Samain, who is special assistant; I have Esther Hiebert, who is my executive assistant; and, as far as office support, we have Marina Portz, who is my secretary; Alison DePauw, who is executive secretary; and Cindy Field, who is administrative secretary. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Chairman, in reviewing the salaries within the department, what does Michael Balagus do within the department? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Michael Balagus is not within the department, sir. Mr. Cummings: He received some reimbursement from the department within the past year, last fourteen months. It is a fairly obvious amount; $15,000, I believe. Notwithstanding the talents of Mr. Balagus, and, certainly no reflection on him, but I wonder what his reimbursement would have been for from the department. Mr. Rondeau: I understand that was a fee for service agreement from the CEDC Committee of Cabinet.

An Honourable Member: Community Economic Development. Mr. Rondeau: Community Economic Development. Mr. Cummings: Well, this is from the '03-04 record of expenditures. Is there any such expenditure in the immediate past year and the current year? Mr. Rondeau: No. I understand that Mr. Balagus would have been employed by the Executive Council and so has not received any payments from the department. Mr. Cummings: Would he also have been receiving a salary from Executive Council when he took on this additional work? Mr. Rondeau: No, he would not have. Mr. Cummings: Okay, I appreciate that.

I think the minister could appreciate why I would ask that question. The second aspect of what I see in reviewing the year past expenditures, I see that Mr. Kostyra, who– the minister is well aware I asked a number of questions about earlier–received his reimbursement from the department in that year. Is he still receiving his reimbursement through this department in the current year? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Chair, Mr. Eugene Kostyra has been the secretary to the CEDC for a number of years and is employed in that job. Mr.

Cummings: So, then, it would show up in a line expenditure within the administration of the Community and Economic Development section? Mr. Rondeau: Yes, it would. Mr. Cummings: In the carrying out of his responsibilities, Mr. Kostyra has an obviously well- connected number of departments of government and throughout various enterprises within that occur in conjunction with government and throughout the province, in terms of economic opportunity. Would he be receiving directions and having communi- cations with the minister, or does he report more directly to the Premier's (Mr. Doer) area? Mr.

Rondeau: I believe that, because I am part of the CEDC Committee of Cabinet, I meet with him regularly there. I also have regular meetings with him. * (15:50) Mr. Cummings: Well, thank you. Can the minister recall when he might have started this activity? What year would he have begun? Mr. Rondeau: I can endeavour to get the date of his hire, or his Order-in-Council, or his appointment to you. Mr. Cummings: Thank you. I expect that the minister will keep his word, but one of the things that concerns me is that I raised a number of questions in committee prior to Christmas with the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger), and some areas were relative to the Department of Industry. It took a number of undertakings to supply answers. As of this date, I have still not had any communication. So I say that not to reflect on this minister, but something to point out to him that I hope that he will be able to do what he has indicated. Six months from now we might not be quite as interested. Mr. Rondeau: I will endeavour to have that to the honourable member by tomorrow. Mr. Cummings: Thank you. I appreciate that. We will move forward to the next

section of Policy, Planning and Co-ordination. Does the Policy Branch

2510 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2006 take an active role in providing advice within the department for direction and who heads up this branch, if I could ask? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Alan Barber heads it up. He has been around for a long time, and he has done a good job. Yes, he provides research, advice and other information to the departments of Industry and other parts of government as far as a lot of policies. Mr. Cummings: Thank you. In fact, I recognize Mr. Barber and his capabilities. That is not why I asked the question. Frankly, I am asking the question because on

Schedule 1 from the book you have a vacancy under Business Immigration and Investment Senior Manager. Now is that

section inactive, or is that merely a phase? Generally, someone is named acting in these various sections if they are deemed to be important. Mr. Rondeau: The previous director, Mr. Randy Boldt, was noted for his work and was hired away. So we are right now trying to recruit for the position and anticipate shortly filling that vacancy. Mr. Cummings: I am sorry. I cannot write as fast as the minister can talk. Can you repeat that name, please? Mr. Rondeau: The previous director of that area, Mr. Randy Boldt, was in the department. He has been working elsewhere. He was recruited away.

Right now, we are looking for a new candidate. We are interviewing now, and I anticipate filling the vacancy in the very near future. Mr. Cummings: I am sorry. I thought the minister might have indicated who was acting in that position right now. Is there someone acting or is Mr. Eliasson doing double time? Mr. Rondeau: Although I have great faith in Mr. Eliasson, I believe that running this department–it is a big department, it requires lots of work, so we have David Sprange who is fulfilling double duty. I know it requires a lot of work, but Mr.

Sprange has a lot of experience in different businesses and different areas. So we have left the double duty in Mr. Sprange's hands. Mr. Cummings: Well, that is reasonable. But, on that vein, what is the vacancy rate in the department right now? Mr. Rondeau: It is 6.6 percent as of March 31. Mr. Cummings: Is that a mandated vacancy? Mr. Rondeau: No. Mr. Cummings: Is there a mandated vacancy? Mr. Rondeau: No. Mr. Cummings: Why would you run 6 percent vacancy in the department that would normally be one of the lead departments in operation of government and promotion of the province? Mr.

Rondeau: The vacancy rate goes up and down and we are in the process of filling a number of vacancies. But, as the member might know, this department has a great deal of people who have spent a lot of time in governments of all stripes, they have a lot of expanse, and we are experiencing more retirements than have happened in the past, so it does take a little bit of time. In the case of the Immigrant Investor Program, by the time the person resigns, you then hold the competition, you advertise it, you hire.

That might be a long period of time, much longer than any of us would like, but you want to make sure that when you have an open competition you allow people to apply for the position and then it is open for the best candidate to take the job. That is what we have done in that position and so the position remains vacant for a number of months. But it allows the process and allows a good candidate to fill the vacancy. Mr. Cummings: Well, 6.6 percent is not out of the world, but, in round figures, what would your normal amount of unexpended salary be at the end of the year?

Is the 6.6 percent high at this time or would it have started at a much lower level in '05? Mr. Rondeau: That number becomes difficult because there are retirements, severance pay, and it varies a lot per year. It depends a lot on how much mobility there is in the department, how many people are retiring in the department. We can endeavour to get that number to you in the very near future. I do not know whether Mr. Halwachs has the time and is able to get it to you in the next few days, but we will endeavour to do that.

But it does go up and down depending on the people who leave the department for other employ- ment and the people who retire. We have a lot of skilled people in our department. We have geolo- gists; we have other people who are in huge demand right now. Some people are also approaching the age where they may consider retiring. So that is happening more and more in government, especially in the department that is as senior and has as many senior people as us.

May 24, 2006 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2511 Mr. Cummings: Well, I am aware of other depart- ments that had a vacancy rate in double-digit, and it appeared to be getting to the point where they were having trouble delivering service to meet their mandate. This is the opinion of senior management; they are able to meet their objectives with this much. I am assuming that this will be an ongoing vacancy rate then, if the retirement rate is as high as it is for a couple of years. Mr. Rondeau: I have been very, very pleasantly impressed with the services that this department does every day.

We have a lot of committed people and 93.4 percent of the positions are filled. Positions are being filled on a regular basis. So, like the head of the immigration business sector, it may take three or four months actually from when the person resigns to when you fill it, but that would be a normal course of business. I am very pleased with the level of service. I hold regular meetings with many groups and I hear very, very positive things about the staff, the level of service delivery, et cetera on a regular basis.

I do a great deal of outr each in the community and the feedback has been consistent where people are impressed by the employees' performances, their diligence to doing a good job and their level of skills. Again, the vast majority, 93.4 percent of the posi- tions are filled. We are endeavouring to fill a number of other positions, and we will continue to do that. * (16:00) Mr.

Cummings: Well, I want to put clearly on the record that the reason I am asking these questions is that I believe it is true that a lot of the people that you would hire are in demand and the department, in many cases, does not have a plethora of people with

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-4-75
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 4th hansardpdf 75.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	560aa4385a75a30d5203f6ecf7a0e296ee481d1e

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