Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 33 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 33-1:30 p.m., Thursday, April24, 1997

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charles wood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

18 87 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, Apri124, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit fo r Mammo grams Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Pamela Lebel, Paula Lebel, Lizzie Racette and others, requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Glenn Olafson, Chris Kushman, M. Sayles and others, requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Mobile Screening Unit fo r Mammograms Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS medical authorities have stated that breast cancer in Manitoba has reached almost epidemic proportions; and

WHEREAS yearly mammograms are recommended for women over 50, and perhaps younger if a woman feels she is at risk; and

18 88 LEGISLATIV E ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97

WHEREAS while improved surgical procedures and better post-operative care do improve a woman's chances if she is diagnosed, early detection plays a vital role; and

WHEREAS Manitoba currently has only three centres where mammograms can be performed, those being Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson; and

WHEREAS a trip to and from these centres for a mammogram can cost a woman upwards of$500 which is a prohibitive cost for some women; and

WHEREAS a number of other provinces have dealt with this problem by establishing mobile screening units; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has promised to take action on this serious issue. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to consider immediately establishing a mobile screening unit for mammograms to help women across the province detect breast cancer at the earliest possible opportunity. * (1 335) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Comm ittee of Supp ly Mr.

Mervin Tweed (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding Emergency Response Plans Hon. Glen Cumm ings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to give an update on flood conditions, and my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Pitura) will follow with a further update on EMO responses for information for the House. I would like to report, first of all, that the predicted levels in the Red River Valley are following the predictions that have been put out by the Manitoba Water Resources Branch, and there are no changes in this update in that respect. The Red River levels, Madam Speaker, have risen from less than a foot at Emerson to 1. 7 feet at the flood way in the last 24 hours. Levels will continue to rise gradually until the crests are reached in late April and in early May.

There is no change in the predicted crest elevations or dates for the Red River from Emerson to Lockport. When this crest arises, the floodway is expected to carry 59,000 cubic feet per second which is well within its capacity, and the floodway can carry considerably more than has been discussed recently in some of the reports that have been made available. On the Assiniboine River, levels from Baie St. Paul at Headingley have begun to fall at most points as ice has finally begun to move.

There will be a danger of ice jamming in this area over the next 24 hours which could result in levels being briefly higher, and I should warn that some flooding has occurred in this area and the possibility exists. On the Pembina River, the crest is expected at La Riviere late today or early tomorrow, the level one foot higher than the 19 95 crest. There is considerable flooding in the Pembina Valley and diking continues in the La Riviere area. Flooding continues on many tributaries of the Red and other streams such as the Brokenhead, the Netley Creek and the Whitemouth River.

Most of these streams are nearing their crest elevations and crests on the downstream portions of the Red River tributaries will be determined by the Red River crest elevations and dates.

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM.�B::....::L=-Y=--=-O-'-F-'-M...:..:A-'-N'---l_T_O�B_A _________ 1_88_9 Madam Speaker, Natural Resources is continuing the implementation to construct 16 miles of dike northeast of Brunkild with the assistance of the military and Highways and Transportation. The purpose of this dike is to keep the Morris River from spilling into the La Salle River. The spill into the La Salle would create flooding concerns for the city of Winnipeg. We have had 400,000 sandbags delivered to St. Adolphe last night to assist in their fighting the levels of the river.

An additional 2.5 million sandbags will be available over the next two days. Flooding has been reported in the Beausejour area and on the Whitemouth River due to ice jamming. The extent of that flooding is not yet known. Flooding is also reported along the Assiniboine River covering a stretch from Headingley to I 0 miles west. The department also reports that the Seine River has peaked east of Lorette. We are informed the flood information on the Internet has now been picked up by more than 3 I ,000 hits, and we would encourage those seeking information to use that approach. * (1 340) Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Just further to the report given by my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources, I would just like to add some changes that have occurred since yesterday's report. With regard to states of emergency, there are now 12 jurisdictions that have declared emergencies. Some of the ones that are changed from yesterday is the R.M. of Ritchot is added to the list and the city of Winnipeg has been added to that list now.

With regard to evacuations, I am advised by the local officials that are co-ordinating all the evacuations that everything is going very smoothly with regard to the evacuations in all the communities, and my sincere congratulations to all those people that are working with regard to the evacuation movement in these communities. Of the total communities that are evacuated, approximately 3,700 have been evacuated as of noon today. In regard to the receptions, my data is only from 8 p.m. last evening, but in the St.

Vital arena, approximately 28 1 have registered; the Altona Civic Centre, 87 1; at Steinbach, 35; and at Ste. Anne, 17 7, and those people are from the Roseau River First Nations. With regard to the armed forces, I am now advised that the armed forces personnel are deployed to provide assistance to local and provincial authorities in the following communities: Emerson, there are 65; Rosenort, 65; Letellier, 38; St. Jean Baptiste, 65; Morris, there are 55; and at St. Adolphe, II 0.

An additional 250 regulars will arrive today for deployment to the city of Winnipeg and additional armed forces personnel will arrive tomorrow by air in support of flood operations. Madam Speaker, these are the changes that I have to report since yesterday. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Let me begin by commending both the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) and of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) for keeping a steady update to the House on the ever-changing conditions concerning the flood of 19 97.

We appreciate very much the statistical data information that has been given to those of us on this side concerning the water levels of the rivers involved in this flood. Also, I want to pay some particular attention to some of the other rivers, other than the Red. We have heard a lot about the Red River and the flooding occurring there. I was pleased to note the minister has his eye also on the Pembina Valley where we have also heard of cases of flooding occurring and high water levels.

As well, the Assiniboine River, which I think we all figured would -even though there was not as much snow in western and southwestern Manitoba this year as there was in other places we all knew the perennial problems with ice jams and the trouble that can cause when we deal with floods. I want to pay particular commendation to the Department of Natural Resources for its work and the time that it has spent in collecting this data, from department officials who are working here in Winnipeg right through to the field offices and liaison offices that have been set up outside of the city.

I think those folks need to be commended very highly as well. I also want to pay particular attention to R.M. officials who have been keeping their local folks up to date and involved in the fight of this flood, and all the many volunteers who have been organized by local

18 90 LEGISLAT IVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97 communities to help out those people who are in need at this time. Along those lines, the volunteers at the St. Vital centre and volunteers at Steinbach and Ste. Anne and some of the other rural communities who have been helping out in the receiving and assisting of evacuees from the Red River Valley need as well to be commended.

Again, Madam Speaker, I wish to pledge the co operation of this side of the House in terms of helping people out in this flood and encourage the ministers to continue with their steady flow of information in the House, as they have been doing. Thank you. * (1 345) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, might I have leave to revert to Tabling of Reports. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to revert to Tabling of Reports? [agreed] Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for Children and Youth Secretariat. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am wondering whether I require leave to revert to Tabling of Reports. Madam Speaker: We have just received leave to revert to Tabling of Reports. Mr. Toews: I would like to table the Supplementary Estimates for 19 97-98 for the Department of Justice.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon 30 visitors from the Salvation Army Literacy Program under the direction of Mrs. Rachelle Johnson and Mr. Murray Rider. This group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). We also have sixty Grades 3 and 4 students from the Daerwood School under the direction of Mrs. Gloria Wur. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Floodway Capa city Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and arises out of the information provided today and in the media yesterday. In this Chamber on Tuesday of this week, the Premier stated that the floodway could handle in excess of I 00,000 cubic feet per second in terms of flow, and it was the government's intention to more or less divide the flow between the city of Winnipeg and the floodway.

In fact, he projected at that time that they would be sending 75,000 cfs, cubic feet per second, through the floodway and between 60,000 and 65,000 through the city of Winnipeg. I would like to ask the Premier: In light of the fact that the minister just stated 59,000 cubic feet per second through the floodway, what has changed in those projections? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, what has changed is that my memory is not absolutely infallible, and my assumptions were based on many discussions I had had over previous days, and I got it reversed.

The 75,000 is more likely to go through the city and the 60,000 through the floodway. That is accurate; that is what the minister has said. I apologize if the member believes I misled him. * (135 0) Mr. Doer: Of course, this has some impact on a lot of our constituents who were listening to the discussions

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1891 and listening to the various choices that the government may or may not make in terms of the water flow. The Premier stated in the House that the floodway could handle, and the quote was, "in excess of 100,000 cubic feet per second." Then he went on to say that the flow would be divided. I would like to ask the Premier: Why are they not sending more water through the floodway pursuant to his original answer and closer to the 100,000 cfs that he talked about here in the House on Tuesday rather than the reversal that we had from the Minister of Environment today?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I want to just make a couple of points. One is that we are attempting to be as open as possible. We are making all information available. This is not about playing political gamesmanship as to who is right or who is wrong. We are attempting as much as possible to give accurate information. I want to correct the

preamble of the member opposite. This does not change the projections that have been given for many days to the City of Winnipeg and the people of Winnipeg. The 24-foot level that has been talked about at the City of Winnipeg has been known to them for a considerable period of time. It was the level to which they were asked to prepare their dikes. I think the range that was given was 23 and a half to 25 and a half or something in that vein, so nothing has been changed for the citizens of the city of Winnipeg or the City of Winnipeg. Its understanding was always firm as to what levels were being projected.

The floodway does indeed have a capacity that could go in excess of 100,000. That would have upstream implications, though, and it would have operational implications, one of which was it would change the levels that people were asked to build their dikes to all the way from Winnipeg to the U.S. border. So it would exceed the current levels of construction of dikes.

The second thing it would do would be to create not only the possibility but now the very real probability that the water would come through the back-door route that the minister referred to at around the height of land near Brunkild where we are building 16 miles of dike on public roadways. That would now raise that to a level that we probably could not cope with in terms of construction. So the city of Winnipeg would get the water, and it would get it in a place it did not expect it, inside and beyond the floodway entrance, and it would cause serious damage.

So these are not decisions that should be made by politicians, not here in this Chamber or not at City Council. They should be made by the experts who are basing their judgments on the way in which the floodway was intended to operate. That is all I say, Madam Speaker. We are not making these judgments. These are being made by the engineers and the experts who know and are familiar with the workings of the floodway. They are making their best judgment based on that information, and I for one, even as an engineer, would not attempt to second guess their judgment.

I accept their judgment, and, as Premier, I am going to ensure that we do everything to support it and to implement it. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, asking straightforward questions and asking for straightforward information that constituents are asking all of us is hardly "political gamesmanship." I resent the term. When the Premier says something on the record and the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) says something, I think it is appropriate to ask questions.

I would like to ask the Premier: In light of the fact that the Premier has stated on Tuesday that we could have a capacity of 100,000 cubic feet per second in the floodway, and in light of the fact that the Premier has stated that would have dire consequences on the conti ngency plan that is in place now in communities south of Winnipeg, can the Premier please tell the House and the people of Manitoba what are the forecasts for the use of the floodway, and what is the total capacity of the 100,000 that is available based on the planning and contingencies that have taken place in southern Manitoba? Is it 57,000?

Is it 59,000? Is it 1 00,000? What is the kind oflatitude that is within the excess capacity based on the forecasts and based on the planning and the contingencies in southern Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: The intent is that at the maximum flow that will be experienced coming through the city of Winnipeg, 59,000 cubic feet per second will be diverted through the floodway. That is the intent.

1892 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 *

(1355) Mr. Doer: I guess my question really deals with-and I understand this-you have certain forecasts and certain diking and certain contingencies that have taken place in southern Manitoba. In fact, you have also had-and this is a new question-new decisions that have had to be made-and we understand that and we respect that-on the southwest side of Winnipeg and on the Brunkild side. I know in Sanford they were told on Tuesday night they would not need sandbags, and Wednesday night they were told to sandbag like crazy. I understand that this is changing.

I just want to know-there is a difference between intent and capacity-are the contingency plans in diking that have been made in southern Manitoba----<:an the Premier please tell us what is the maximum capacity now of the floodway based on decisions and the contingencies that have been made in southern Manitoba? Is the intent the maximum 59,000? Can they go over 59,000 cubic feet per second? Can they go to 60,000, 65,000, 70,000? What is the latitude that has been built into these contingencies plans? I think all people will want to know that. I am just asking the Premier: What is it? Mr.

Filmon: I think there is a difference between the capacity and the intended levels. The intended levels are to be used in such a way that the backwater consequences upstream would not be worsened. That is how the engineers who make these decisions have planned for the use of the floodway. They have therefore concluded that by keeping it to 59,000 they will not create a backwater effect that will create a worsening situation upstream.

They have calculated the current expected flows such that, by having the flows of59,000 diverted through the floodway, they will maintain a flow or a level in Winnipeg at James Street, I guess it is, a maximum level that is-1 believe the current projection is still somewhere about 23.5 to 24.5 feet above stage, and the city has been diking to 26.5 feet at that point, which gives them two feet of freeboard. So they are prepared for it, they expected it and that is what it has been anticipated to be. That will result in the optimum usage so that nobody is asked to bear damage in order to help somebody else.

This is all a balancing. This is not something that we are doing because of political decision making; this is based on the best advice of the engineers. Mr. Doer: I respect that. I just want to know what our flexibility is. Now James Street projections last week were 19.3. On Friday it changed to 20.4, as I recall. On Sunday, after Grand Forks, it changed to 23. Now we have the Department of Natural Resources legitimately saying: Prepare for the worst-case scenario.

I just want to know from the Premier: Is the Premier then saying that there is no flexibility whatsoever to go beyond 59,000 cubic feet per second based on the other realities in southern Manitoba and the diking and contingencies that have taken place already in southern Manitoba? I just want to know: Is there any other flexibility built in if we get major rainfall, for example, or whatever? I just want to know that, and I think the people would like to know that. Hon. Glen Cummings (Min ister of Natural Resou rces): I know the member is not intending to misrepresent the measurements at James Street.

The 19 feet that were predicted, the change could go to 20 feet. I believe that was the night that the floodgates were opened when we were presented with that possibility. In fact, to perhaps give the member an example of how this can fluctuate, the evening that the floodgates were opened, the river was running 15 to 16 feet above datum at James Street. The prediction was that by morning the flows in the river would have reached 20 feet by eight o'clock or nine o'clock the next morning. So the engineers made the decision that they should activate the floodgates in order to stop that eventuality.

The predictions going back to February have always said that the outside range was 24, 24 and a half feet above datum, and that was intended to also recognize that, should dike with two feet of freeboard, which would be 26 feet, perhaps 26 and change. So it is a balance that the engineers are trying to strike, and yes, obviously, given the forces of nature, we will have to work within that flexibility. But the predictions, they have risen to the high level. The predictions today are that those levels are accurate, and we should be able to manage them in the manner that we have indicated

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1893 provided we can stop any backwash, backwater from the La Salle. *

(1400) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, we all hope that these numbers are accurate. Believe me, we all hope they are accurate. What my question to the First Minister and the minister is, and I just want an answer to it-the Premier made a statement on Tuesday. We have corrected it today, and that is fine. The Minister of Natural Resources has said that it is 59,000 cubic feet per second in terms of the floodway, and that is the intent of the plan right now. I want to know whether the intent of the plan right now is actually the maximum.

Because of the decisions that have been made on the forecasts and the diking and other decisions that have been made by the government, legitimately with-and I respect the decisions that are being made. Is the 59,000 cubic feet per second flow in the floodway in a facility that the Premier stated had 100,000 capacity-! understand it is the intent of the government-is that also the limit? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think we have to start recognizing that nobody here is God, that we cannot predict what might happen. We cannot say whether or not we could get enormously unusual conditions.

When asked that question, the chief official from Natural Resources, Larry Whitney, said that current levels are assuming that we might have an inch of precipitation during the period of time leading up to when the peak would come through. If we got more precipitation, that could have consequences. If, on the other hand, every one of the tributaries and its flow contribution to the Red River gave us less than expected, that could have consequences. If they gave us more than expected, that would have consequences.

I have indicated to the member that there is the possibility of more capacity being put through the floodway. That would have consequences, and the consequences are higher upstream levels on the Red River affecting people who have already built their dikes and the possibility of backwater coming into Winnipeg. I do not think we should be attempting to alarm people to say this is what might happen. It might happen and if it does we know what the consequences will be, and we may or may not be, depending on when it happens, in a position to do something about it. But those are choices that will have to be made.

When the choices are made, they will be articulated to people to say: Well, are we going to have less consequences by letting more water go through the channel in the city of Winnipeg or are we going to have less consequences by trying to force more of that water through the floodway? That is all we can do. That will be a human judgment decision, and we will make it on the best advice that we get from the officials who are paid and who are trained to be able to make the best evaluations that they can. Flooding Premier's Visit-South Transcona Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): The Premier and many of his ministers have been flying to various communities affected by the flood to view first-hand the situation, especially given all the issues that are being raised here about safety, availability of sandbags and equipment, co-ordination, predictions and contingency plans. When I was sandbagging in south Transcona residents wanted to be assured that their elected officials and governments would be there to see first hand the situation in south Transcona.

I want to ask the Premier if he has been to south Transcona to see the water there standing in ditches of at least six feet, to see water standing in the streets a foot deep, and if he now will tell us if he has gone to south Transcona or if he plans to go there. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have not been to south Transcona. I have not been to a lot of parts of the province in which there is flooding. I was in south Transcona when I was chairman of works and operations in the City of Winnipeg during the 1979 flood.

I wa5 there up to my hips in hip waders, and I walked through all of the streets that she talks about. I walked into houses that were completely inundated up to their main-floor level. I know precisely the circumstances they are facing, and they are not facing them for the first time. They

1894 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 have had flooding in that area on numerous occasions, which is why we have offered the City of Winnipeg an opportunity to permanently deal with it through the Urban Capital Projects Allocation, an opportunity that we believe is what they ought to be looking at in the long term. We hope that they will be taking us up on that offer. Ms.

Cerilli: Would the Premier not agree to come now to see first-hand the situation in south Transcona given that the city is arguing that because the water is coming from rural Manitoba, from the R.M. of Springfield and flooding into the Winnipeg sewer system, the funding for this project should be above and beyond what the Urban Capital fund allows and should actually be coming from Rural Development? Will he come with his ministers from the appropriate departments to make that assessment and to see if that is reasonable? Mr.

Filmon: Apparently, the member for Radisson either is not listening or has not heard, but the fact of the matter is I was there in flood circumstances. I was there in deeper flood circumstances than they are currently engaged in, and I do know exactly what they face, which is why-I do not normally meet with city councillors, but I did meet with a city councillor for that area on two occasions, and I am meeting with her again later this week because I believe that we ought to do something that was not done by previous governments.

It was not done by the Pawley government, even though those people knew that they had to find a solution for that area. We have now offered the money for the first time to the City of Winnipeg through the Urban Capital Projects Allocation. They have never had that money offered to them on a cost-shared basis, and we have done it. The City of Winnipeg now wants to play politics and say: We are not going to take it unless you fund it out of new money. I think that is absolutely absurd, and they deserve to be dealt with.

I would ask the member for Radisson to go and take her people to the City of Winnipeg and demand that they put their money on the line and help in that project and not quibble with us over what pocket we take it from. This is money that we are prepared to put into that investment, which they have never had offered to them before. Ms. Cerilli: What I am asking is for the minister and the First Minister to give the same consideration for the area that I represent that he is giving to other areas in the province of Manitoba that are being affected by flooding.

I appreciate they are offering the money from the Department of Urban Affairs, and I bring to this House the questions that the constituents of mine are asking. The constituents are realizing now that City Hall is claiming that the Rural Development department should be funding this program for flood abatement. What I am asking is: Are they completely ruling that out, or are they willing to take a look and see if that is reasonable, or are they going to just stand by their offer and, as he said, have the residents of south Transcona just deal with City Hall? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I think that it is unreasonable, and I think it is unreasonable that the member opposite is taking such a narrow view of the situation. The people of south Transcona have never had- Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1 41 0) Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the Premier cannot have it both ways. He cannot accuse me of taking cheap shots when I am representing the views of my constituents and making the very argument here to him that the city councillor is making in south !-,� Transcona. I would ask you to have him withdraw those comments.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Radisson does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, we have a solution which we have worked very hard to be able to put together. As I said, I have taken the unprecedented step of meeting with local councillors which I do not do because they are an independent government and they ought to have their own decision-making powers and

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1895 their own process of decision making. I have done all of this, and we have put together a solution, a solution that will work to the benefit of her constituents. I would ask her to support the solution instead of saying that it should come out of a different department. That is absolutely nonsense. It should come out of the source that is available for it and get the job done. Flooding St. Boniface Hospital Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the First Minister has told the House today-and we accept his explanation-that the floodway can only operate to about 60 percent of its maximum capacity without having serious upstream consequences for the dikes of Rosenort, St. Adolphe, St. Jean, et cetera. We understand that and we accept that. That basically means that St. Boniface Hospital has about six feet of freeboard at this point on an inspection of that dike this morning, and so far as could be detennined, no work is going on to deal with that dike.

The City of Winnipeg has built an earthwork the size of the Great Wall of China down the Wildewood golf course. Can the Minister of Health indicate when serious diking will begin behind St. Boniface Hospital? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, I thank the member for that question because St. Boniface is not the only facility in the city of Winnipeg that we have to be concerned about in a worst-case scenario.

First of all, I think he has rightly flagged that given the levels of responsibility in emergency that the City of Winnipeg, as the municipal authority, has the responsibility to protect that building and to ensure that proper diking takes place. I am infonned in the briefing that I have with my staff on a daily basis that their intention is to begin construction of-1 think they have removed some of the sandbag diking or are making some changes to strengthen and expand that dike to ensure the protection of the facility.

The concern, of course, a very real one-it happens each year-is that many of the electrical cables and mechanical parts in the operation of that facility are in the tunnels below it. The facility is known to have seepage even in a moderate year, and that is what is presenting some difficulty in the continued operation of that facility. So we are attempting to manage it with the facility and with the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, at least at noon today there was no work going on on that dike that was visible, although there may be some that was not visible going on.

Can the minister tell the House what steps have been taken to pre-position additional pumping equipment, et cetera, from his department or from other departments so that hospital's chances of maintaining operation are maximized? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, St. Boniface Hospital and the Ministry of Health-we keep in regular contact with them and all facilities that we either feel may be at risk or are receiving-facilities. We play a co-ordinating function in that particular issue. St.

Boniface Hospital began yesterday-! think there was a press release about their changes to reduce their capacity in the system, but they are attempting to manage this and arrange for as much protection as they can for their facility. Again, the City of Winnipeg is co-ordinating dike construction, and although no construction may be taking place at the current time, there are a lot of logistics to do it obtaining the supply of material, arranging for the trucks, all of those things. The actual placement of the materials is probably one of the shorter parts in that process.

So because no work goes on today does not mean that preparations are not underway. If the member would allow me as well, by way of time, because I know there have been questions about other facilities, St. Boniface certainly fits into a plan or a concern for the whole city. Members may be aware that of personal care homes and hospitals that could be at risk, if we got to a worst-case scenario, a breach of primary dikes, those types of things, we have somewhere over 1,400 beds in hospitals and personal care homes that may in fact be affected.

So Manitoba Health has been working with those facilities and others throughout the province to ensure alternate arrangements are available, and we are building in essence reserves of bed space. Winnipeg hospitals will be taking in the next few days some precautions in elimination of some elective surgery and other things to

1896 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 reduce the number of people in facilities that are not affected so that we in fact have room should the need arise to move people out of affected personal care homes and hospitals. Within the system, we should have enough capacity to handle a worst-case scenario, and, although one never would like to hope or expect that to happen, we are certainly preparing for it, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, given that St Boniface is the only major facility outside a primary dike and given that it has taken the city two and a half weeks to construct an 800 metre, 6- to 7-foot high dike at the Wildwood golf course, can the minister assure the House that he will contact the city today and ask them when they intend to actually begin the work of trucking and compacting? That is not a short-term process; it has been more than two weeks to do the similar kind of work in Fort Garry. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I am not going to comment today on the decisions that the city makes in its primary role in emergency preparedness. I would say this to the member: We are in regular contact. In fact, my deputy minister is very much involved in many of these contacts as we try to prepare for what in fact are any eventualities. Yes, we want to ensure that St. Boniface is properly diked. As the member can appreciate, predictions, a number of things have been changing as we move through the system, and myself and my ministry are very much aware and in regular contact. If St.

Boniface Hospital is of the view that their risk is increasing and work is not done, we will take what steps are necessary to be in touch with the city to find out where they are on the priority list. I can tell the member that a great deal of work has gone on over the last number of weeks in preparing for this. The member may have noticed in many of the evacuations in southern Manitoba deliberate plans were made not to move people into the city of Winnipeg to ensure we were not putting pressure on our bed system, and we are working this through in a very systematic approach. I appreciate his concern.

We will make sure that all is done that needs to be done. Tendering Process Guideline Tabling Request Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, it is indeed actually quite encouraging to see that the different levels of government are co-operating, and we are entrusting and believing that our experts in fact are doing what they can to minimize the flood damage to Manitobans. Having said that, as the Liberal caucus, we are going to be monitoring and put forward questions when we believe the government is potentially slipping on the issue.

Having said that, I want to ask the government, with respect to the tendering of contracts, if there are provincial guidelines and policies and if we could see something tabled to that effect, what those policies would be. Hon. Glen Cum mings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker. I am not sure if the member is referring to some emergency purchases that the Department of Natural Resources and other departments may be making during the flood.

I can indicate to him that. for example-and I will table further information if necessary, but in obtaining services recently for materials that Natural Resources needed, they contacted known suppliers, asked for a turnaround of a known number of hours and chose a winning tender. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, what I am actually referring to is the contracting in general and asking the government: Do they have guidelines, provincial guidelines and policies, that in fact they could table that would show how the tendering process actually works and the guidelines that need to be followed within the different departments? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, yes, there is a definite protocol that is put into place with regard to purchasing and tendering of contracts, and there is a definitive process that has to be followed in cases of all purchases made or tenders that are put out. My staff, I think. would be pleased to be able to put that together and supply that to the member.

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1897 Online Bidding System Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (In kster): I wonder if the minister could indicate: What role does OBS play with respect to these tenders , online bidding system? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, the OBS system, I guess, is at the present time being replaced with a new system.

With regard to the member's question, when the OBS system was in place-with regard to tendering, it is an electronic tendering process which, of course, is available to anybody who was registered under that process and could tender on a number of government contracts right across the country. So, with the Manitoba government being a participant in that, of course, all of the tenders that the provincial government would list on there could be responded to and people could actually bid on those contracts through the OBS system. *

(1420) Independent Schools Funding Formula Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, one of the principles that unites most Manitobans is a shared sense of fairness or an expectation of evenhandedness from their government, which is why one of the most disturbing aspects of this government's educational policies has been the continuous cuts to public schools at a time when private schools have, by political agreement, seen increases of 15 percent, 11.6 percent and 11. I percent over the past three years.

Could I ask the Minister of Education to confirm that her department Estimates this year allow for another increase of approximately 10 percent for private schools at a time when the public schools have received zero? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I look forward to eventually getting into Estimates with the member so we can go through all of those details. I have indicated on numerous occasions in this House that funding for public schools has increased by $115 million since we took office. It is a tremendously big increase.

I also indicate that it is meeting the needs of the public schools. If you only need to look at the amount that needs to be raised by special levy, it is far less, far less than school divisions had to raise under special levy when the NDP governed this province.

I also have indicated on numerous occasions, Madam Speaker, that we have an agreement with the independent schools that will see them come ultimately to 50 percent of the cost of running public schools and that once it reaches the 50 percent level, which is an agreement going in stages, that 50 percent level will remain the same as school divisions continue to get their costs under control. If public schools go down, then independent schools will go down as well, but they will never be more than 50 percent of the total costs of running public schools. Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister, who has on occasion blamed federal cuts for her reductions to public schools in Manitoba-minus two, minus 2.6, minus two translates into a cut however she wants to present it-explain to the House why such federal cuts are not applied evenhandedly to both sectors of education in Manitoba? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, the devastating effect of the federal transfer cuts I am sure will be emphasized in the weeks and months ahead very dramatically to the people. Those cuts are real.

They have had a tremendous impact, and we have not passed on to public schools anywhere near the impact that we have received from them and I say-[interjection] The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), I would invite him to ask me that question so that I can have the opportunity to answer it and may explain to the people why that kind of statement is extremely misleading. [inter jection] Madam Speaker, may I have leave to continue my answer? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, to complete her response.

1898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 Mrs. Mcintosh: There are many who would argue and in debate might be able to argue successfully for their position, which is that independent schools actually save the system a great deal of money-$8 million per year to be exact-by virtue of being funded less and having to pay a user fee to teach our curriculum, hire our teachers and do all of those things, write our standards exams, and if we had to accommodate them overnight, our taxes would rise considerably. Ms.

Friesen: Would the Minister of Education tell the House what her response has been to her own Advisory Committee on Educational Finance, which represents all the stakeholders in education and which urged her in November of last year to ensure that she repeal, reverse her decision on the funding of private schools and that private schools be subject to the same accessibility, reporting and accountability requirements as public schools? Mrs. Mcintosh : There were several questions in that, and I trust that I will be allowed to answer all of them.

I would indicate that, first of all, we are following through on a commitment made by Premier Ed Schreyer, by Premier Howard Pawley, who both said in writing that the best way to deal with this situation is to have an out-of-court settlement, a signed phased-in agreement. We are following the put-in-writing statements of their two former Premiers, plus one Professor Gerald Friesen who indicated that the constitutional rights of independent schools were similar to the constitutional rights of Francophones in Manitoba. I do not disagree with those people, Madam Speaker.

I trust that she does not disagree with them either. Point of Order Ms. Friesen: Once again, Madam Speaker, the minister is either evading the issue or she is unable to answer the question, but my question was specific. What is her response to her own ministerial Advisory Committee on Educational Finance which has urged the reversal of her policy and accountability for private schools? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Wolseley does not have a point of order. *** Madam Speaker: The honourable minister, to quickly complete her response. Mrs. Mcintosh : Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I was answering the question, Madam Speaker. You are quite right; there was no point of order because I was indicating to the member that- Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Beauchesne's Citation 417 states very clearly that ..

Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I would note there was no reference in there to editorial comments or the member-and God forbid that the minister is in training to be Speaker, because we do not see any purpose in having her comment after you have made a decision in this House. I would ask you to for once, Madam Speaker, call her to order and ask her to stop abusing this House with her rambling nonanswers in Question Period. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), I would remind the honourable minister, indeed, according to Beauchesne, her responses should respond to the question asked and be as brief as possible. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable minister has three seconds remaining to respond.

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1899 Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I will simply say in answer to the third question the member posed that-because she had three questions. I think I have answered two. The one was that public schools do expel students. I deal every day of the week with parents who want to know what to do with children expelled from the public school system, and independent schools do take special needs children. Indeed, independent schools take the expelled children from the public schools to help the parents out. Independent Schools Funding Formula Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. This minister and her government have kept public education on a starvation diet for the last nine years. While staff and programs in the public system have been cut, property taxes have soared as the result of provincial underfunding. We have seen private, elite schools benefiting from the sweetheart deal this government voluntarily signed. We have now seen another increase to 10 to 13 percent for this year alone.

Can the minister tell this House how many staff have been cut in private schools over the last four years when we have seen over 250 positions cut in Winnipeg 1 School Division alone? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could get your advice as to which of the questions posed I am permitted to answer. She asked three. Which one should I answer? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mcintosh: I will attempt to answer all three briefly then.

The member, first of all, asked if I knew how many independent school teachers have been laid off. No, I do not, but I could find that out for her. She asked if I am concerned about teachers being laid off in public school divisions. I would indicate to her that in British Columbia, for example, two Vancouver school boards have just laid off 475 teachers because of budget cuts to them. When they expressed their concern to the B.C. NDP Minister of Education, he said: Tough, you cannot have everything you want. We are not doing that. We are providing increases.

If you look at the constant dollars over time, in constant dollars the spending power has increased, what you can buy for the dollar has increased. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs; and the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) in the Chair for the Children and Youth Secretariat. *

(1430) Madam Speaker: Because the Deputy Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau) and the Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson) are not available today, I am requesting the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) to chair the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in the Chamber; and the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) to chair the

section meeting in Room 255. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSU MER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Does the honourable Minister of

1900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 Consumer and Corporate Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. Mike Radcliff e (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs): Mr. Chairman, yes, I do. About three and a half months after I became minister, I am now very privil eged to make my first presentation of the departmental Estimates. I look forward to this process and to outlining the plans and activities of my department for the coming fiscal year.

A theme that will recur frequently in my remarks is efforts by different branches of my department to increase the amount, scope and access to information available to Manitobans about consumer matters and the activities of the department. Businesses and consumers, as well as landlords and tenants, need a wide variety of information in order to function effectively in the marketplace. Improving access to information, programs and services is a continuing departmental objective. One of the highlights ofthe department's operations for the fiscal year, Mr.

Chairman, is the change to a special operating agency status for the Property Rights Div ision effective April I. The divisio n, which comprises the Land Titles Office and the Personal Property Registry, will now be called the Property Regist ry and will be the largest special operating agency in the government service employing 157 of the 600 employees of such agencies. Revenue from Land Titles and personal property security regis try fees will be used to finance the agency. Under a revenue-shar ing agreement, the Property Registry will remit $1.8 million to the Consolidated Fund in 1997 -98.

Beginning this spring, the registry as well as the Companies Office is participating in the Better Systems Initiative. As a part of the initia tive, new computer systems will be developed to help the public communicate with the government in a variety of convenient ways. The project is expected to be completed in the fall of 1998. With respect to the Property Registry, we expect the init iative to transform the way the registry does business with clients. Here, Mr. Chairman, the goal is to enable clients, where feasible, to use electronic access to obtain the title information or services they want.

It will give Manitoba the framework to successfully meet service requirements by using a variety of methods including electro nic. Our Residential Tenancies Branch is increasing its efforts to reach out to its clients and the public and make more information available outside office hours. Besides our website, we will introduce a 24-hour Talking Yellow Pages line. The line will answer frequently asked questions and will be updated frequently so the information will be as current as possi ble.

The branch will, again, offer a series of information sessi ons to landlords of small Winnipeg apartment blocks, and these seminars will also be held in Brandon and Thompson. Staff will discuss key aspects of the landlord-tenant rights and respo nsibiliti es and answer questions. The positive responses received from past sessions indicate that they are a valuable two way link between the department and the community. In the last fiscal year, the branch completed a comprehensive policies and procedures guid ebook. It was written to outline as clearly as possible the role and the activities of the bran ch.

Unlike most such documents which are internal and intended only for staff, we have shared this one with both landlords and tenants. Not only has it increased our efficiency and effectiveness, but it has helped reinforce how The Residential Tenancies Act is fairly administered for the benefit of both sides. helped landlords and tenants prepare for hearings and answered common questions. The French editio n will be distr ibuted in May, at least that is the target date. Mr.

Chairman. one of our most successful programs is our community-b ased volunteer speaker program which has enabled the department to reach more than 7.000 Manitobans. Volunteers complement our services by expanding the range of direct community contact. Besides being a vehicle for feedback, our volunteers bring new insig hts and energy to our programs. Last year, we made a commitment to broaden the department's Consumer Education volunteer speakers program to include workshops dealing with the landlord and tenant issues.

I am pleased to say that we now have 20 trained volunteers; five are now testing workshops for high-risk tenants with groups like the Urban Circle Training Program and Language Training Centre at Red River Community College. We are evaluating and revising these seminars

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 190 1 and plan to have five to 10 more tenant education volunteers by the end of this fiscal year. Mr. Chairman, the World Wide Web is fast becoming a vital means for both placing and obtaining information. We have given businesses and consumers ready access to information on our programs through our new bilingual Internet home page. Our website outlines the responsibilities of our branches, special operating agencies, boards and commissions. We have tried to make the website as user friendly and helpful as possible.

For visitors who are not sure where to go for information or advice, there is an easy-to-use index and e-mail links to connect them with the right program. Landlords and tenants may find the website of particular interest because the Residential Tenancies Branch has expanded its page to include frequently asked questions, a sample of its policies and procedures guidebook and downloadable forms. Mr.

Chairman, an important part of the internal trade agreement between the provinces and the federal government was the agreement to harmonize legislation pertaining to direct sellers and to disclosure of the cost of credit. This harmonization will make it easier for businesses to operate in more than one province. It will also make it easier for consumers to adapt when the move to another province or conduct business in more than one province. We amended The Consumer Protection Act in the last session to adopt harmonized provisions pertaining to the cancellation rights and contract content of direct sales.

These amendments will be proclaimed very soon. The Consumers' Bureau and the Research and Planning branch are continuing to work with other provinces and Ottawa on developing harmonized legislative requirements for the disclosure of the cost of credit. This harmonized legislation will apply to nearly all credit grantors and all forms of fixed and open credit. It would benefit both consumers through expanded consumer protection and businesses which will be able to operate interprovincially within the same set of rules and guidelines, and finally I would like note a change in the structure of the department.

We are in the process of merging the former Trusts and Loans Branch with the Co-operative and Credit Union Regulation Branch. This will result in cost savings and more effective use of departmental resources. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my remarks and I am ready for the questions of the members opposite. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): We thank the honourable minister for those comments. Does the critic for the official opposition, the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), have opening comments? Mr. Jim Ma1oway (Elmwood): Mr.

Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to welcome the new minister of this department and make a few comments about the lack of direction of this department over the last few years. I think, if memory serves me right, it has not been since Ed Connery was the minister that any real activity occurred in this department.

I cite at that time the introduction of The Business Practices Act which was quite significant in those days and that takes us back to the minority government period of 1988 to 1990, so one would hope with a new minister in place right now, hopefully not on his way somewhere else like most of the others have been, that perhaps we will be able to address some of the pressing issues in the areas of consumer affairs that we have been arguing for a long time should be dealt with.

There is a whole range of different areas that we are concerned with, but certainly one of them was looking at franchise legislation. * (1 440) I note that that is being looked at in some sort of detail by the minister's department and a number of different areas. I note in the Research and Planning area that reference is made to activities of this particular department.

I will be wanting to ask the minister questions about what, in fact, is developing in there, because there are a number of initiatives that this government should be taking and maybe this minister will be able to put some direction in this department that has been lacking over the last few years. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): We thank the honourable member, the official opposition critic, for those comments. Under Manitoba practice, debate over the minister's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall

1902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we would invite the minister's staff to please come forward and that the minister introduce his staff to the committee. Mr. Radcliff e: I would invite my staff forward at this time. I would like this opportunity to introduce Ms. Alexandra Morton, who is my deputy minister, and Mr. Fred Bryans, who is seated at the table with us today. He is the director of the administrations branch for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

McAlpine): I thank the honourable minister. We will now proceed to 5.1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 24 of the main Estimates book, $301 ,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $49,700-pass. 5 .I. (

c) Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $695, 1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $194,800-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from Legislative Assembly ($228, 1 00}--pass. 5.1.(

d) Research and Planning

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $153 ,100. Mr. Maloway: I wanted to ask some questions about the Research and Planning division, but my colleague has a number of questions on Vital Statistics agency. I know that if someone is here representing the agency that we might want to deal with those questions so that they can proceed to do something else if they wish. So if you wish to do that, we can jump ahead, do Vital Statistics and then my colleague will be satisfied for the moment. Mr. Radcliff e: Mr.

Chairman, at this time I would like to invite Caroline Kaus, the director of Vital Statistics, to the table, who has joined us now, and we would be ready to proceed with these issues. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Chairperson, I have a few questions on a small part, I guess, of the department of Vital Statistics, and I apologize to the minister since I had told him in the House that I would give him my questions in writing in advance and I did not do that. However, it does mean that if the minister does not have answers today, I would be happy to get written responses in the future.

So if you want to take things as notice, that would be fine with me. My questions have to do with church records that are held by the Vital Statistics part of your branch, specifically, baptism, marriage and death records. Now it is my understanding that some of these records were compiled even before The Vital Statistics Act in Manitoba so we are talking about old records here, and for some reason they became the possession of Vital Stats rather than the church archives. This has created some problems, for example, people doing family genealogy research and also people seeking proof of treaty status.

If people go to church archives, they can do a search for free, but when they go to Vital Statistics, there is a $25 charge for a search, and I understand that it can be more. For example, it is my understanding that Vital Stats will do a search of a five-year period, and if they have to go into another five-year period, there may be an additional $25 charge. The result of this is a number of anomalies. For example, I am told that some other provinces do not charge.

I am informed that other jurisdictions have information in the public domain, for example, information that is a hundred years old or more, but that in Manitoba the information never becomes part of the public domain. Also, some information that is in church archives is accessible, but identical information in Vital Statistics is not accessible. For example, marriage information, there could be a church marriage register in a church archive and also a registration of marriage form in Vital Statistics with almost identical information, one of which is easily accessible with no charge and the other would cost $25.

One of the problems that has been raised with me is that some people find the $25 charge excessive or burdensome, especially low-income people. So I think I have outlined some of the problems. *

(1450) So some of the questions that I would have are, first of all, is it your department's policy to continue to keep all the records, as they are, without ever becoming part ofthe public domain?

April 24, I997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA I903 Mr. Radcliff e: Mr. Chairman, the department is researching this matter right now, but their intention is that records that are over a hundred years old will become part of the public domain. That is the intention that they are working to at this point in time. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell us when that might take place? Mr. Radcl iff e: I believe that the department will be bringing all their records forward to the next legislative session, and they will be seeking permission at that point.

I am sorry, all their acts forward to open them up at that point in time and have it reviewed at that point in time. Mr. Martindale: Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that. Does that mean that the legislation will be reviewed by the minister with the intent of amending it, or is it going before a committee for review? Mr. Radcliff e: I believe the process will be that it will be presented firstly to the minister and then would proceed to the Legislative Assembly. Mr. Martindale: Will there be any form of public consultation or input before the amendments are introduced? Mr.

Radcliff e: I do not believe there will be anything with regard any public review or consideration on the records that are I 00 years old or older, but one of the things which I think is rather sensitive which will require some public consultation will be opening up of adoption records.

I can speak to that from some of the background I have had on this issue which is that one must be very careful not to betray the confidences of individuals who have made contracts with the Crown on adoption positions; then subsequently when people become adults later in life to have that position reversed when they are perfectly confident that those records would be sealed forever; so that there are really the consideration I guess or the confidentiality of two innocent parties involved. One must deal with these often conflicting interests with some degree of sensitivity.

I believe that there will be some consultation on this issue. Mr. Martindale: I am also familiar with this because of amendments to the Child and Family Services legislation, as is the minister. When the information that I believe you said is I 00 years old or more becomes part of the public domain, will you do that by putting it on-line, or how do you plan to make it publicly accessible? Mr. Radcliff e: I believe that initially the first step will be to make it available in the public Archives, then as our technology advances to put it on-line. Mr.

Martindale: Would the information then be accessible, for example, from computers in public libraries? Mr. Radcliff e: I believe the information would be as available as the information that is furnished by the Archives department at this point in time. Mr. Martindale: I would like to zero in more specifically now on the church registers. It seems to me that there are a couple of issues here. One is accessibility to the information and the other is the matter of ownership.

Is the minister saying that the information that is going to be made public will be made public as it becomes a hundred years old and older, or are you looking at something less than a hundred years as well? Mr. Radcliff e: I believe that the practice in other provinces which we have been considering and I think will likely adopt would be that as the century advances that information would become accessible, and so it would be an ever-moving target; a hundred years at a time to start with and then one year at a time. Mr.

Martindale: Would the minister be willing to get in touch with the archivists at various churches and discuss their concerns about returning church records to them? For example, the archivist for the United Church is Diane Haglund, and that was why I was particularly raising this issue because I am aware that Vital Statistics has church records, some of which are quite old, like Wesley and Methodist records which would be more than a hundred years old. I am wondering if the minister is willing to negotiate with the Conference of Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario to have these records returned to the United Church.

19 04 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 Mr. Radcliff e: There is no dispute that, in fact, these are church records, and the ownership belongs with the church. I believe that Vital Statistics has kept these records to date because they have a system of safekeeping to preserve them because with the advancing years they become more and more fragile and more and more vulnerable. I do believe, as well, that there have been requests for and compliance with requests for furnishing microfiche, microfilm copies of these records, and I think upon request that these records would be returned. Mr.

Martindale: Thank you very much for such a positive answer. I am sure that will be good news to the United Church. I have a couple of more questions. Vital Statistics used to be part of the Department of Family Services. When was it switched to Consumer and Corporate Affairs? Mr. Radcliff e: April 1, 19 94 . Mr. Martindale: And when did it become a special operating agency? Mr. Radcliffe : The same date. Mr. Martindale: Why did it become a special operating agency? Mr. Radcliff e: Well, to answer that question, Mr.

Chair, I guess one would have to reflect upon the advantages of a special operating agency, and I can attest to this from personal inspection, which is that a special operating agency is allowed fiscal control of its own operation, makes a commitment under a business plan to the central government to donate X amount of revenue to the central coffers and beyond that has the obligation and the authority to be revenue-neutral, to sustain its own costs and to provide the service at the level that is supplied in the business plan.

So, for example, in Vital Statistics, they have an obligation to preserve and keep and furnish records upon request of major milestones of people's lives, be it birth, marria ge, death, baptism, et cetera, as we have discussed. The advantage to this is that there is a significant degree of autonomy and authority for the management of the special operating agency to meet the exigencies of the management of the department. *

(1500) As issues develop through the course of the year, they do not need departmental approval; they do not need legislative approval; they do not need cabinet approval, and so long as they function within the umbrella of their service commitment and the fiscal responsibility, then this is looked on with approval.

The reason for moving a branch of government out into a special operating agency is to give them more independence, more pride of being and to give them greater flexibility, so that they can furnish better service at a more reasonable and economic fashion to the people of Manitoba. can cite, for example, one particular issue, that when I was on tour of the Department of Vital Statistics I was being courteously escorted about by the director, and we had an occasion to look at an imaging machine.

It was explained to me in quite some detail that, in fact, the administrative decision made on her part and on the part of a number of her employees in a collaborative fashion was that they did not need to buy the most expensive machine that had been recommended to them but rather that they could settle for one that was significantly cheaper because in their professional opinion this fit their needs of service. I remarked and commended them on this, that I thought this was really commendable, and this illustrated to me the idea that they have this adminis trative capacity,

whereas had there been a requisition done for a purchase, there would have been straight-jacketed or very formalized processes which would have been evoked, and then there would be no deviancy therefrom. Mr. Martindale: I seems to me that governments do not have to buy Cadillacs; they can buy Chevys. You do not have to be a special operating agency to buy a Chevy. Does the fact that it is a special operating agency explain why there are user fees?

April 24, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 1905 Mr. Radcliff e: I do not think we can attribute either the existence of fees to the consumer or user of the service nor any rise in fees to the consumer or user of the service to the existence or nonexistence of the special operating agency. In fact, I am told that the custom of the administration in this special operating agency is to observe and keep abreast of rises or decreases in fees in other provinces across the country and to move our rate

schedule accordingly. There is obviously an obligation on the part of the department, or the special operating agency in this case, to recover the cost of service and for it to be borne by the individuals who are using the service, but beyond that any relative change is done consistently with other jurisdictions across the country. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minister could table a list of fees for the various services at Vital Statistics? Mr. Radcliff e: Certainly, we would be glad to.

I do not think we have them right at this point in time, but we would certainly be glad to do that as expeditiously as possible. Mr. Martindale: One of the fees that I tell people that they do not have to pay is for a marriage licence. If they are regular in attendance at church they can have bans read, and they do not have to pay for a marriage licence, but in the last 16 years I have never had the opportunity to have someone take advantage of that. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Radcliff e: Mr.

Chair, I can advise the honourable member that I in fact did have my banns read in church prior to my marriage, and I would heartily encourage all individuals of the province of Manitoba to comply with that custom and avoid the user fee. Absolutely. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, just to follow up with a few questions on the SOA. I would like to know if the minister would also provide us with a list of the fees that were charged at the inception of the SOA.

So I would like to see how they have changed since they began as an SOA and where they are now and also, perhaps, if we could get a list of the fees that were in place before the SOA became a reality, because I think I would have to take exception with the minister that this is a benign move on the part of the government. To me and to us in the NDP, I think we see this as an attempt by the government to basically bring in a hidden tax.

It allows the public to pay higher fees for services that they may have at one point gotten for free or almost for free, and this saves the government, allows it to make its political claim that it has not raised major taxes for 10 years or whatever it is going to be when the next election comes around.

So clearly there is a positive benefit to the government in the process of using SO As in that it allows them to increase user fees and thereby take a larger chunk of flesh out of the people who need the services and many of these people really cannot afford some of the fees that are being charged and, in fact, I see an increase in these fees over time. I also have observed that these SOAs, in a way, are just a step towards the privatization process.

Privatization has become the rage in the western world ever since 1979 when Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister in England and over 20 years what most of the rest of the western world have followed to one degree or another in privatization. In fact in New Zealand the entire country has been privatized in one massive sweep. I guess for every benefit that can be shown out of that process, horror stories can be pointed to as well. In fact in England when the bus routes were privatized we saw service deteriorate and buses would not run on time and things would not work the way they had under the old system.

The minister squirms a bit here, but I think if he wants to check into the situation in England that privatization has not necessarily accomplished what the ideologues in the Conservative Party had planned in the beginning other than perhaps make a few individual owners richer but, in general, the wages of the workers after privatization tended to drop. So we have said all along that this government's long-term aim will result, if they are in power long enough, and it has been a long time now, nine years-it feels like 10 or longer-but over time that is the logical extension of the SOAs.

So I would like to ask the minister for his comments and also to tell us how many more SO As are planned in his department. I believe there are about 14 now. It is moving target. But I wanted to know how many there are now and how many are in the planning stages. Where is this going to end?

19 06 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97 Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, firstly, in response to some of my honourable colleague's initial remarks, I would be glad to table the fee schedules that were in place at the time of the inception of the SOA. I can advise the honourable member at this point in time that there have been two increases in Vital Statistics since April 19 94, and that is that there has been a general, across-the-board increase in the production of certificates which is a $5 rise, and there has been a $10 rise in the charge for marriage licences.

This is the sum and substance of the rises. With regard to the general philosophy, I do not know that this is the correct forum to debate, only to say that I would suggest with the greatest of respect that my honourable colleague's remarks as to some sort of undercurrent or Machiavellian plan to move to privatize is speculative at best on his part at this point in time and that there is no plan to privatize public service facilities which are in this particular domain.

So I would with the greatest of respect challenge his conclusions on that point. * (1 510 ) I would also point out to my honourable colleague that the ownership of the database of the records at Vital Stats remains vested in the Province of Manitoba. I think that is a significant issue which should be taken into account, and I would overlook a number of the other comments that my honourable colleague made with regard to political motivation, only to say that I hope that the Filmon government or its successors are in power for a long time. Mr.

Maloway: I would like to ask the minister whether any approaches have been made by people in the private sector to this SOA or any others that he is aware of in terms of privatization or in terms of contracting out services?

I draw the minister's attention to, for example, the province of Ontario, and it may be the same here, in the workers compensation area, which, as the minister knows, is private in the United States, but the Insurance Bureau of Canada has been making representations to various governments to not necessarily take over-while they would like to take over the whole workers compensation scheme without the debts, as a backdrop, they have been lobbying for handling of the claims.

So it is logical that somewhere along the line if outright representations have not been made to take over the entire SOA, be it Vital Stats or be it another one, certainly there must be some private business interest in portions of it or handling certain services that are provided by it. I would like to ask the minister whether his government has done any studies in this area or whether it has been approached by different interest groups that would like to see the dismantling of these SO As. Mr.

Radcliff e: I have not personally been approached by any private industry group to take over any of the SOAs or any suggestion even that that be done in any of my departments, and I am not aware of any policy that has been developed within the central cadre of our government to even explore any of these sorts of issues.

I can say, ifthere is a vehicle with which to dispense service under the auspices of Vital Statistics, for example, death certificates and issuing death certificates through the aegis of the funeral parlour, rather than over the top of the counter to make it more speedy service or convenient service to individuals who are involved in funerals, that, as an attempt to furnish additional and superior service, Vital Statistics will not tum something like that down. This is in no way an attempt to privatize or escape its responsibility of supplying a public service to the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I actually had a couple of questions just to do a little bit of following up. Today, SOA for Vital Statistics, do they contribute to the general revenues and, if so, how much do they actually contribute? Mr. Radc liff e: I am advised that any excess revenue right now in Vital Statistics is being retained at Vital Statistics because they are saving up for purchase of an information system. I believe they are very close to acquiring same at this point in time and paying it off. I believe they have the hardware in hand at this point in time.

April 24, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 07 The proposal for next year, the next fiscal year, which, I guess, would start in April of 19 98, is that Vital Statistics would contribute $1 00,000 to the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Province of Manitoba and thereafter any funds which were in excess, which were not needed by the special operating agency in the years to come, would be contributed rather than being retained down at the operating agency level. Mr.

Lamour eux: I am wondering if the minister would agree that when, in fact, you establish an SOA-and I am looking specifically at Vital Statistics-you could use different arguments for different special operating agencies; but, speaking strictly with Vital Statistics, here is a service that Manitobans require. It is not an option. If you want to be able to get a passport, you have to have your birth certificate. There are some things in which you do not have too much of a choice, and when the government decides that it is going to provide a service-and I think one could get into a philosophical argument.

My friend from Elmwood on the left of me would ultimately argue that maybe service should be provided at no cost. Then I look across the Chamber from where I sit, and they might argue that maybe, yes, we should have money coming in from the Special Operating Agency of Vital Statistics to the Consolidation Fund or into general revenues, in more plain language. I would ultimately argue that here is a service which Manitobans need. It is not an option for them. By creating the special operating agency, is it really necessary for this agency to create a surplus?

Does the minister believe it is necessary for them to create a surplus? Mr. Radcliff e: Mr. Chairman, I think that, as I stated earlier, the fees that are derived from the service, furnishing the service, from the users of the service are comparable to those levels of charge that are made across the country, so that we are consistent with our sister provinces. I believe that the efficiencies which are granted, which are opened up for Vital Stats to provide this service may result in revenue surplus from year to year, and other years there may not be, as their operating mandate continues.

I believe it would be precipitous at this point in time to say that they ought not to be allowed the flexibility that a special operating agency offers, or that they should be pared to the bone. They should be allowed the flexibility to be able to increase staff in certain cases if they need to, or increase purchase, or avail themselves of equipment or training as need be. The revenue or the income for such improvement would come out of the surplus. I do not think that we are talking astronomical numbers at this point in time. My honourable colleague has mentioned the acquisition of a passport.

I do not believe that he is espousing that his colleagues at any point in time should be granting-or maybe he is-that passports should be issued for free, because I just renewed mine very recently. This is a user-driven service. I think I had to pay about $60 for my passport. I do not object to that. Certainly, if I want the passport to travel abroad, then that is something that I am obliged to pay for, just as you go to Eaton's and get a pair of socks. * (1 520) Mr.

Lamo ureux: The minister is right in one sense, but what I want to focus on is the fact that, yes, one could articulate as to why it is Vital Statistics might require maybe possibly to build a reserve, and they can use some discretion. We do not want to see, for example, civil servants within a special operating service being paid disproportionately more or disproportionately less than other civil servants working from within the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. A lot depends on the expertise, the training, and so forth, but to establish a reserve, you have a base reserve.

I would think that, given the service that is being provided, the cost, if you like, of receiving your birth certificate which is different than a passport, a birth certificate, you are going to require your birth certificate at some point in time in your life. You do not have any option. You do have an option with a passport, ultimately. You do not have any option with respect to a marriage certificate. If you want to be married, you are going to have to get a marriage certificate. Now, the member for Burrows (Mr.

19 08 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97 Martindale) did point out an exemption, but there are atheists, if you like, that maybe do not want to go through the church. Mr. Chairperson, what I am suggesting is, does the minister believe that Vital Statistics should be able to, in the long term, make money off of a service that Manitobans, by and large, have to rely on, and if so, would he then not agree that what you are really doing is imposing another form of taxation? You are being very specific on who you are taxing. You are not taxing everyone, or the general population.

What you are doing is you are penalizing anyone that requires that particular service, or if they have lost their birth certificate and they require to get another one, or if a person decides to get married twice possibly, I do not know. Now, you are talking about small fees, relatively small fees, and I acknowledge that. But what we are really talking about here is the principle of it, the principle being, does this special operating agency have-well, obviously it has the authority to generate excess amounts of what it actually costs to function. It has that authority.

But does this particular minister believe that that access amount is necessary to the extent that it has to be contributed to the general revenues because, if the answer to that is yes, then what the minister is saying is that that is in fact another form of taxation. Mr. Radcliff e: Mr. Chairman, I believe that the honourable member is correct, that the previous individual asking questions did indicate that if one is an adherent to a religious denomination, one has access to baptismal records and marriage certificates without cost for the production of the actual paper.

However, if one does want to rely upon the services of the state, due to the fact that the individuals who are working in the special operating agency are subject to collective agreements and members of different labour unions and that the special operating agency is maintaining database on an ongoing basis, and I am sure I have had the opportunity to observe the honourable member with his computer laptop in the Chamber from time to time, so I know that he is literate and aware of all the ongoing expense of maintaining computers, software and database, there are ongoing expenses for the furnishing of this service.

Further, I think that I would respond by perhaps answering by way of posing another question, which is, if we are talking about equity and fairness and clean hands and all this sort of stuff, is it proper and appropriate for someone to come on a repeated basis and continually use the Land Titles and request time after time out of negligence or disregard for their records reproduction of their records,

whereas one person who perhaps might obtain records and save them and be very frugal and prudent and preserve them, that the people of Manitoba should fund the cost of the indolent person or the careless person? I am led to the conclusion that in fact it is appropriate and proper for the users of this service to pay for it and not to have it financed at large through the tax base of the Province of Manitoba.

I know that both my honourable colleagues are looking to the statement, the political statement that we have made in this government from time to time, that we have not raised any major taxes in this province. That is not to say, and we make no bones about it, that we are keeping abreast of inflation as the value of the money deteriorates or as the value of collective agreements rises. This does have to be represented right across the economy.

I am sure that my honourable colleagues have a very intimate grasp of economics to know that you look back to the 19 50s and look at the value of our money in the '50s versus the value of the money today, that our money has depreciated significantly. So I think the only conclusion is that we are entitled to ask for modest increases, and I do not think that people are being unduly subjected to severe hardship by a rise of$5 over the last two years, three years for general certificates, nor $10 for marriage licences.

As my honourable colleague has indicated, he is not looking to the specific charges themselves but, rather, I think addressing the philosophical base in this particular case. So from a philosophical response, I would say that it is appropriate to maintain modest reserves and modest income, and that is in fact what this special operating agency is doing. Now, if , and this is a totally speculative nature, a database or a technology advance would be made which were to revolutionize the form of record keeping, that my director be the single employee at Vital

April 24, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 19 09 Statistics and furnish the services singularly by herself, unilaterally, then would we be justified in maintaining the same fee level? I think not. I think that you would see a dim inution in cost and that this would be transmitted back. But, at this point, this would be highly speculative because we do not anticipate that would be the foreseeable result at this point in time. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, I picked up on a few key words that the minister indicates.

One was the minister maintained modest increases, and, yes, for all intents and purposes they are relatively modest increases. But the total of those increases allows for the creation of $1 00,000 that goes over to general revenues. Expectations might be, I do not know, about what is going to happen with that $1 00,000. My friend from Elmwood says maybe it goes into the slush fund potentially, indirectly. How does it have an impact? The bottom line is that it is some form of a tax increase. That leads to the other key word that the minister brought up, and that was ma jor taxes.

The government says that it does not increase or it has not increased ma jor taxes, and it quite often overlooks some of those smaller taxes. This is an area in which we are seeing what I would classify as a tax. The minister posed the question to me: Would I support someone going in and getting a birth certificate a month? By all means. He is paying for it. He or she is paying for it. In fact, the government is making money off it. The more that person goes in, the more the government is going to be making money.

My argument with this particular-and I would not want to say that it applies to all special operating agencies-but with this one I am not convinced that the government should be making money off of this particular operating agency. Yes, it is a necessity to have a reserve. Having said that, I do have another question that is very, very specific, and it is more of, I guess, a pet question that has been in the back of my mind for a number of years. Since my brother is very quick to tell me that I was born in St.

Boniface, not Winnipeg, because on my birth certificate it says that in 19 62 when I was born-yes, '62-it says I was born in St. Boniface, he is quick to point out that on my little girl's birth certificate it says that she was born in Winnipeg. Yet we were born in the same hospital, that being St. Boniface Hospital. * (1 530 ) Now, if I was to go down to Vital Statistics, I understand that in fact it would say that I was born in St. Boniface. I was curious as to the logic behind that. I am sure the government is not going to fall over this particular question, but it is just more out of curiosity. Mr.

Radcliff e: I believe that the certificate that is the result of a request for service at the counter of Vital Statistics is a result of the information that is compiled on particulars of a live birth. So I would indicate to the honourable member that when he is born, his mother or some other person, his father at the time or a nurse, would elicit the information, the particulars of the information as to his parentage at that point in time and the location of the birth. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that in 19 62 the area of the city-and I presume he was born in St.

Boniface Hospital-that was in fact a separate municipality from the city of Winnipeg under the aegis of metropolitan Winnipeg; but it was in fact a separate municipal government. The Vital Statistics records only reflect the information that is recorded on the particulars of a live birth. So, presumably by the time your daughter was born, you supplied on your particulars, or somebody on your behalf, particulars that child was born in Winnipeg. Therefore, that would explain the anomaly in this situation. Mr. Lamoureux: One final question, and that is, and one should never question my passion and love for St.

Boniface as a community-get that on the record-but if someone wanted to make an amendment to that, is that possible? Mr. Radcliff e: I would suggest with respect to the honourable member that in fact the information that probably was supplied at the time of your birth was correct as at that point in time. However, there is an amendment process for a fee with Vital Statistics and, on production of appropriate evidence by way of affidavit or other statutory declaration, there is an amendment process in order to rectify the records in question.

1910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97 Mr. Lamoureux: I appreciate the free advice. It is just something in which I have had discussions with my brother as I have indicated and it is just, as you can tell by the len gth of the time it took to respond to the answer, one of those little, trivial things which I thought I would raise at this point in time. I appreciate the minister's patience. Mr.

Radcliffe: I would also like to put on the record, because my honourable friend has indicated that he received some advice from me, that I no longer hold an active practising certificate as a barrister and solicitor. I would not want, in any way, him to be under any confusion or misapprehension that I was tendering or proffering any legal advice at this point in time. Mr. Maloway: Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), who is, I guess, the real organ grinder in this case, is a pretty happy man because he gets to politically make statements that the government has not raised any taxes and, all the while, through the back door, the money is rolling in. I mean, new taxes are sprouting up all over the place as a result of not only the VL Ts working flat out but also all these SO As that are popping up all over the place. So what you have developing is a series of hidden slush funds and I draw your attention once again to the Workers Compensation Board which is just now building up a surplus.

That Workers Compensation Board in the next four years I think is going to build up a massive surplus coincidently just in time for the next election. There is no secret about that. So when the next election comes the government will be poised with a surplus, in a position to cut taxes and, at the same time along its flanks, will have the option of reducing Autopac rates if it has built up surplus in Autopac, reducing Workers Compensation rates in the Workers Compensation field. I mean, it is there. All you have to do is look at the financial statements. They have got a tremendous surplus that is increasing.

I do not mean to write their election platform but, I mean, it is being done as we speak. We have to recognize that these SO As are just simply part of that overall plan of theirs to essentially privatize the government, to develop little slush funds through hidden taxes. That is what is really going on here, and I do not know whether the minister is aware of it or whether he is brought in at that level, because this government is run by one or two people. We know that, and I do not expect him to admit that he is the architect of all of this, but I do solicit his comments as a new minister. Mr.

Radcliff e: I guess my first remark would be to respond to the allusion by my honourable colleague that there was an organ grinder at work here, and if one were to extend that simile forward, is he inferring that the present company is the holder of the cup? If so, I would significantly challenge that description. With regard to the Workers Compensation Board and the Manitoba Public Insurance- An Honourable Member: There are others. Mr.

Rad cliff e: And as he quite rightly points out, there are many, many other areas and departments of government, special operating agencies which, sin�e the election of the Filmon government, have had the benefit of sound. prudent fiscal management.

I think that I would like to take this opportunity to put on the record that I would like to congratulate all the managers and the directors and the administrators, and people who are running these different departments of government, that they have worked very, very hard, and the staff have all worked very, very hard, to furnish a high level of service to the people of Manitoba, and to do it in such a fashion that they are turning around these departments.

I am advised that only a very short number of years ago there was a very significant debt in Workers Compensation Board, and that, with some very frugal management and sound fiscal probity, the particular person, I think it is Mr. Fox-Decent, has been able to tum this situation around. He is to be commended for that. As to what will be the result once these surpluses are established or these reserves are created and we can forecast that there will not be any significant demand or drain on these funds. I can only speculate at this point, and that would perhaps not be appropriate for me.

But I can certainly undertake to my honourable colleague that I can pass his comments on to the Minister of

April 24, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 191 1 Finance; I believe that I heard the honourable colleague saying that he was expecting that we would be passing on significant savings to the people of Manitoba by reducing fees for many of these services- An Honourable Member: At the appropriate time. Mr. Radcliff e: Well, timing in life is everything. I would share that with my honourable colleague Mr. Stefanson, and I am sure he would be very appreciative of that advice. * (1 540) Mr.

Maloway: The minister made ref erence to the computer system being changed at the Vital Statistics SOA, and, in fact, the minister knows that the computer system is being changed throughout the government with the contract recently being given to SHL, I believe. I would like a detailed explanation as to what is contemplated here with the computer changes and what will be the end result. Mr. Radcl iff e: I am advised by the director that the computer system that is being anticipated to be installed at Vital Statistics will be consistent and compliant with the Better Systems Initiative of the Manitoba government.

The proposal or the request for service was put out across Canada as a nation for response. I am told that the Vital Statistics department responded with choosing the lowest cost and the best quality that was furnished of all the individual proposals that were advanced. I will refrain at this time from revealing the identity of the individual supplier of the system because they are still in negotiations. I would not want to jeopardize any of the negotiating process at this point in time.

I would add, and for my honourable colleague's enlightenment, that the existing system that was in place in Vital Stats was new, circa 19 70, and was not the year 2000 compliant. So Vital Statistics' hand was forced. They were obliged to move forward and move forward very expeditiously because we could not be left advancing beyond 19 98, was I think the curtain period by which we have to have a system up and running, in order to furnish service for the year 2000.

The object of the new system, as well, is to be able to produce records more quickly than we are at present under the existing system, so this is an added benefit. Mr. Maloway: So what system, if any, does Vital Statistics have currently? The member says a system from 19 70. Well, that can only be a paper system. (Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Radcliffe : I am advised that the system is a very early version of computerese and the name of it is NGEN, which means very little to me.

It has very limited capacity but it can, I gather with some pain, produce the certificates, but is slow and cumbersome and has limited capacity as well for storage of database. So therefore there are problems with space or room on the database. I would say it is-I believe the appropriate vocabulary-a legacy system. Mr. Maloway: So when this new system is put in, will it be the year 2000 compliant?

The reason I ask that is that while it is hard to believe that the government is still buying computers- I understand, today they are still buying computers, as are lots of people buying computers in computer stores that are not 2000 compliant-they are going to have a big problem in less than, I believe, it was 1, 000 days from now, because they are going to find out that not only the software has to be changed, but also the hardware has to be changed. Mr.

Radcliff e: The system that we are purchasing will be the year 2000 compliant and we anticipate that is-well, I have stated that that has been one of the driving forces that obliged Vital Statistics to retool. Mr. Maloway: So the minister is confirming that the new software and hardware is year 2000 compliant, because there is a difference there. I do not want to hear that we find out a year from now that only part of it is year 2000 compliant and we have to spend a whole bunch more money to upgrade it, because that is what is happening over at Autopac and other places right now.

There are big messes all over the place. In fact, whole layers of software that have already been paid for are having to be thrown out because it is too expensive to make the changes, and the prices and the costs of the programmers is going up.

1912 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 19 97 Right now if you are a computer programmer your salary is going up almost by the hour it seems, and so people are going to be making a lot of money on this change. The sooner you get at it the better of f we are all going to be rather than leaving it to the last year. Mr. Radcliff e: I can confirm to my honourable colleague that the hardware and the software is year 2000 compliant. Mr. Maloway: Now, is this part of the SHL contract that has just recently been signed and is actually about three or four months late? Is SHL in charge of this operation? Mr.

Radcliff e: I can advise my honourable colleague that this is an independent purveyor from SHL, that SHL in fact is a desktop software, and this is a different system. Mr. Maloway: Then how many of the SO As in his department are in the same sort of situation, where they are going to be in a nondesktop situation for computers? Mr.

Radcl iff e: I am told that Corporations, Personal Property and Land Titles are going to IBM for their programming and, just to keep the record clear, I am told that SHL will be supporting the system, but they are not the provider to the system in Vital Stats or in Land Titles. * (15 50) Mr. Maloway: When this system gets operational in Vital Statistics, will the same number of people that work there now be required, given that you are moving from a 19 70s system to 19 97, year 2000 compliant system? Is there not going to be a reduction in staff here? Mr.

Radcl iffe : I am advised that there will be probably a reduction in staff years and employees of six to six and a half individuals, and this will be accomplished in a number of ways, first of all by vacancy management, by retirements, and there is a ma jor initiative on the part of Vital Statistics that if individuals are going to be terminated that we are endeavouring to make sure that they have marketable skills so that they can find employment elsewhere either in the public or the private service. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, what percentage of the total staff does this represent, these six or 6.5 people? Mr.

Radcl iff e: I am told it is about 18 percent. I would add, for my honourable colleague's benefit, that the turnaround time for response under the new system we are expecting will reduce from a 1 0-day turnaround to a two-day turnaround for production of documentation. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister is not in a position to tell us who the contractor is for this particular contract, but I assume that he can tell us when the system is planned to be installed and what the total cost will be. Mr.

Radcl iff e: I am told that the system will be in excess of a million dollars, the acquisition price, and that some of the price is involved with the conversion costs, because a significant amount of the project is converting the existing records into the new system, the new database. The conversion process will commence May 1, 19 97. It is anticipated that that will take approximately 12 months. At the expiration of 12 months, it should be up and fully running. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, now, does this mean then that once this system is up and running, and these systems oftentimes have lots of bugs and do not work as well as they are supposed to, but is this system in operation anywhere else? Because I know with the Autopac system, it was quite an innovative approach that they took. I do not think they had had one of its kind anywhere else, and it has worked out quite well actually. It has had a few initial troubles, but the system works quite well right now.

I understand that next to the pharmacies, who set up, they connected on a big network about a year earlier than Autopac did, that these two networks are the largest and second largest in all of Manitoba. So there are two networks that are working quite well right now. I would be interested in knowing where you contracted these people from. Do they have any

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1913 experience? Do they have any similar sorts of operations that they have got set up and working properly, or are you the test people? Mr. Radcliff e: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the system that we are looking at right now and negotiating with does exist in four other jurisdictions in proximity to Manitoba.

When I say proximity, I mean on the North American continent, and I would not want to be pinned down to anything more specific than that at this point in time, because I would not want to reveal the identity of the-excuse me, I am told that in fact they are not contiguous to the province of Manitoba, that they are in fact in the British Commonwealth.

Our administrators have received a high level of confidence that the particular purveyors are able to supply the program which will meet our needs because, where they are existing in other jurisdictions, they are supplying at a higher level with a larger database, and with a higher performance level than in fact are our requirements at this point in time. Mr.

Maloway: So, once they set this system up then, is that where their involvement ends, or do they have any involvement that allows them to earn ongoing revenues either through software upgrades or other little hooks in there that keep them in partners for life? (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr.

Radcl iffe : I am advised that in fact there will be a maintenance relationship with this purveyor, that in the future I think we have the option for upgrades if we so choose, or if there is an overall decision to make an extension of future development of this system, we would have the option, because of the characteristics of this program, that we could put future development of the program out for tender. It lends itself to that sort of development. Mr. Maloway: So what the minister, I gather, is saying is that this is essentially an open system that is not proprietary. Mr. Radcliff e: Mr.

Chairman, I am quickly getting beyond my level of competence here because I am literate with computers, but I am told that it is an open architecture compliant with BSI, but it is proprietary software, if that is of any assistance to my honourable colleague. Mr. Maloway: I wonder whether SHL really did have any kind of a role in this because SHL just got the contract, albeit three or four months late, but they just got it in the last month. My guess is that they were being asked to approve something backwards in this case; I mean, they would not have been involved at this point. Mr.

Radcliff e: I am told that SHL did have the opportunity to bid and chose not to bid in the provision of this database. SHL will provide the desktop facility-and I do not want to mislead my honourable colleague in this respect-but, with regard to the acquisition of this particular database system, they were not involved. Mr. Maloway: Now the minister has already admitted that the turnaround time with the new system is going to be reduced from 10 days to two days or whatever, hopefully, right? * (1 600) Mr. Radcliff e: That is an anticipated target. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, when this thing gets operational, and we are reducing our staff by six people or whatever, what then is envisioned in terms of access to this system? Are we looking at remote access where we can hook up to it as I do right now, hook up to, I think it is ISM or something, so I can access the property registries, and the who-is-suing-who registry, and all those other things that we use everyday for Question Period? Are we now going to be able to access into Vital-I do not know why we would want to do this, but are we going to be able to do this and avoid the walk over there? Mr.

Radcliff e: would advise the honourable colleague that we will not have remote access to Vital Statistics because we do not want individuals having access to other people's records without appropriate authority or appropriate reason, and that would in fact be a breach of confidentiality. Therefore, there will be scrutiny of the requests and applications coming in. I regret to advise that he will have to attend at the branch,

1914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 24, 1997 the special operating agency, in order to obtain this information. However, we do maintain fax communication right now, and it is anticipated that type of communication will continue. Mr. Maloway: I must say that it was my colle ague from Burrows (Mr. Martindale) who wanted to deal with the Vital Statistics agency. It was not my intention to deal with it at all, and I see we have spent an hour and a half on it. I think at this point-and we do ask for flexibility in the Estimates given the situation with the floods.

Colle agues of mine and coll eagues of yours on both sides of the House are out working building dikes and so on. One of my collea gues is in the other set of Estimates right now, and she wishes to come here to deal with the Rentalsman's office and so on. So I would ask you to be flexible enough that we can move back and forth. I would say that we are likely finished. The probabilities are that we are finished with Vital Statistics at this point. I do not see anybody else coming in here on this question right now. so I do not think we will need to call that back again. Mr. Radcl iff e: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask my honourable collea gue-because I look up from the table here and to the audience, and I see a large assembly of very high-priced staff waiting to give particulars-if we could have some guidance from my honourable coll eague as to what departments he will be questioning on, or that he and his coll eagues will be questioning on. I do not expect a response at this point in time, but if he could give us some indication so that we could be considerate to staff and let them go, and if we could

schedule people within a half day perhaps so that people are not inconvenienced. Mr. Maloway: I think for the rest of the day, that is to 6 o'clock today, we probably will not go beyond the Research and Planning department. I think that if we get into details that the minister or the deputy cannot answer, we can always consult and get back to me in writing or get back to me on another day. We have no definite plans as to how long we are going to stay here. We may be here for a long, long time, but in terms of today, I think Research and Planning is enough.

Most of my questions are of a political nature, anyway, that you can answer yourself. I think that would be fair. Mr. Radcliff e: I would thank my honourable colle ague for that advice. On the basis of that advice, I will ask the staf f if they would excuse themselves, then, and we will be able to give them more specific advice tomorrow as to when their attendance would be required. Mr. Maloway: I would like to deal with the Research and Planning department for a while.

In the past years we have sort of ended up usually at the end of the Estimates cycle and so oftentimes, with previous ministers whom we did not get along as well as the current two do, the Estimates would consist of me making a 40-minute speech and the minister making an equal 40-minute speech, and that was the end of the Estimates for the year. I am sure the people who were at those Estimates remember that.

So now this year we have rejigged them to put some of these departments up earlier so they would get a little better looking at. *( 1610 ) Research and Pla nning is something that we have always been interested in because. quite frankly, we never really could understand fully what this department does. If you read what it says it does, it is very, very vague. Previous ministers, when they were asked questions about. really either were not able or were not prepared to answer many questions about it.

So maybe the minister would like to just do a bit of an introduction here and go point by point as to what is being done in this department and what stage each of these things that they are working on is at. Mr. Radcliff e: I can advise my honourable friend that Research and Planning has three staff years. There is Mr. Ian Anderson, who is the director and is present with us today. He has an associate, Mr. Mager, and then there is one secretary who works in this department. They are located in the Wordsworth Building.

I can advise as well that the secretary is subject to secondment to other areas in the department, and in fact I can advise, much to Mr. Anderson's chagrin, that I am employing her currently in my office as the minister's receptionist and feel quite embarrassed at this point that he is having to stumble along without

April 24, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1915 his regular staff. But he has been very generous in that respect. So there is some crossover to backfill, because I have staff right now that is away on maternity leave. My honourable coll eague is correct, Mr. Chair, in saying that the research is of a general nature, but I can tag some individual topics which the Research and Pla nning department does cover, and they are there at the disposal of the minister of the department, and t

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5618a1fe3bf3df3a349b14fa86257f9900c9401f

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