VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 1978 NO. 41

April 27, 1978 Tape 1485 DW - 1 The House met at 2:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKE~: Order, please! DR. T. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege , the hon. minister. DR. T. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege in connection with a document which has been laid on the table of the House by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), and this is the earliest opportunity I have had to rise on this matter for personal reasons.

Now, Sir, I examined this document in question,which is a mixture of lies and half truth,cunningly concocted in an attempt to bring discredit upon me personally me as a ~inister of the Crown and upon the Government of the Province. I wish to point out that it is not alleged in the document that I or any member of this government was bribed , ~ut the document attempts nonetheless to cast doubt upon my integrity as a person and as a minister.

I am gravely concerned about the possible motives of the maker of this document and I cannot understand why a document designed to cause personal harm should have be referred to in debate ry a member of the House of Assembly. In order to clear my name and put the sordid allegations to rest,! have asked the government to initiate a full investigation by the RC}W of all aspects of this matter.

I know full well that there has been no ~ongdoing on my part and I am confident that the results of such an investigation would prove to this House and to the publ!c of Newfoundland that no wrongdoing took place on my part ,and that the wrongdoing in this case is the unscrupulous making and publishing of unfounded allegations. I wish to make the following matters clear: I have not bribed anyone, I have not intimidated anyone,! have not peddled inf~uence and I have at all times conducted myself properly as a member of this ! House and as a minister of the Crown. I have asked for the broadest ,. I· ~·· 2"' . .

April 27, 1978 Tape 1485 DW - 2 DR. '!' • FARRELL: possible investigation to decide this matter once and for all. SOME HON. }\EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPElll<ER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

Before recognizing him I would draw to the attention of all hon. members that the hon. gentleman to my left spoke on a matter of privilege and the authorization for that is in May~page ·~ 43, "In regard to the explanation of personal matters the House is usually indulgent and will permit a statement of that character to be made without any question being before the House." And then there is a second part, ''No debate should ~nsue. thereon,but if another member is involved in the personal statement he is generally allowed to give his own view of the matter and to say whether he accepts it or not •" I poi!ilt it out so tha.t our rules of procedure are absolutely clear on this point.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition. }!R. W .N. ROWE: Sir, I am not involved in the matter anymore than any other member of the House of Assembly except as Leader of t~e Opposition. I will say very few words on this, Sir, not by way of debate but merely by way of comment and question.

We are delighted, Sir.- I hope that the ¥inister of Justice ~ccedes to the request of his colleague to have this matter fully investigated by the RCMP. and any other police department in the Province, the matters which were alleged in a clocu~ent forced onto the table of the House by Your Honor under the rules of the House.so that maybe the ~linister of Justice, Sir, could indicate whether in fact he asked for a police investigation and when if he has when he instructed such an investigation to take place. Secondly, Sir, . ~ · I l '

April 27, 1978 Tape 1486 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. W.

ROWE: either the minister who just spoke or the Minister of Justice might indicate to the Rouse whether one Terrance White, referred to--or who allegedly wrote a letter signed in his own handwriting and is signed bv him- is still on the payroll of the Provincial r.overnment , whether he is still the minister's Executive Assistant , ;.nd if reports which were mentioned in one of the news reports lunch time are in fact true, that apparently he has left the country or left town~ I am only p.oing by what I heard or was reported to me as being reported by,I believe, Q Radio lunch time today. AN HON.

MEMBER: On CBC as well. MR. W. ROWE: On CBC as well. Perhaps some han. minister opposite could answer all of those questions which I have raised in response to the han. minister's point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Before calling the next item, Statements By Ministers, I feel it incumbent upon me to make a brief statement to the House with respect to the tabling of documents. There appears in the media at least to ~ave been some misunderstanding of the involvement of the Chair~ the chair, in the person of the Deputy Chai~an of Committees and in the person of myself.

The inferencefrom some of the media reports I saw or heard could tend to suggest that the Cha;_r has the discretion of authority, which it does not have at all,and that the Chair . being aware of a document then decides whether it should be tabled or it should not be tabled,or whether it is in the public interest to table it or not in the public interest to table it. And I think that it is important to have affirmed what precisely is the role of the Chair in the tabling of documents. And it is specifically and exclusivel v to enforce the rules of the House of Assembly.

The specific references in Beauchesne which were made at that time,and not necessary that they be repeated, anu they are that all documents cited must be tabled unless they are personnal letters or unless they are state papers, and state papers are ones in the possession of the Crown. And that is the role of the Chair in every instance of tabling documents,to enforce the rules of the House of Assembly. I c ' .,·. \:: ~

April 27, 1978 Tape 1486 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker: I say that bec~use the media comments uoon it where at least ambiguous and would tend to attribute to the Chair a role that the Chair does not exercise and does not have authority or jurisdiction to so do. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have this morning received the advice which I sought from the Deputy Minister of Justice and the Director of Public Prosecutions concerning an alleged affidavit,with a purported letter annexed thereto,which was tabled in this Ron. House by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) on Tuedsay, April 25, 1978. I have this morning directed that there be a full investigation by the Foyal Canadian Mounted Police into all matters referred to therein and all other matters in any way associated therewith, and all persons or persons who may,whether mentioned in the affadavit or not, have bee., associated therewith or in any 1vav affected thereby.

Whilst the investigation will be prompt, vigorous, and unimpeded, and under the sole and exclusive direction of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who P:'.ll investigate all matters, as they always do,that come before them and which they may come upon during their investigation. For the information of the hon.

House they will be investigating, and having assessed the affidavits and enclosures or attachments thereto,possible intimidation, threats, bribery, o~ ~lackmail or anything else which may constitute a crime or crililes 1:nder the Criminal Code of r:anada including the matter of publication of sworn affidavits and perjury as a result thereof. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile MR. NEARY: To that point, Sir, or to that Ministerial Statement, I wonder if the hon. gentleman would add one thing to his list of things that he wants investigated?

Could the hon. gentleman add taping telephone conversations to his list?

April 27,1978 Tape No. 1487 AH-1 The RC}JP will investi2ate anythinP in thP Criminal Code of Canada, HR. NEARY: The han. gentleman is giving the RCMP instructions, Sir, to investigate certain things. The RCMP are quite capable of carrying out their own investigations, they need no guidance or counselling tram tne Minister of Justice. But I would like for the minister to add taping telephone conversations to his list. Would the minister add ~hat to his list? ~Dl . SPE.AKER: Order, please!

I cannot permit debate under ~linisterial Statements and the han. gentleJOJ.an has JOJ.ade some conments and Uas asked a question - }ili.. ~ARY: I have asked a question, Sir. Would he - :·.!R. SPEAIG:R: -but that is as far as I can go. }!R. HICJ.O~'i: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. !!R. HICKHA.'i: H.r. Speaker, 111ay I repeat that the Royal Canadian 2~unted Police have been instructed to initiate a ptoapt investigation by ~e.

I do not instruct them as to how they carry out the investigation or the matters that they investigate, I do know that they will be investigating inter alia,amongst 'other things,and I will repeat what I just said, intimidation, threats, bribery, blackmail and anything which constitutes a crime under the 3rilOJ.L~al Code of Canada - :lR. NEARY: But this may not be a crime. If the Premier tapes a conversation that is not a crime. l·!R. lU CKMA.'i: and a crime under the Criminal Code of Can~da, for the benefit of the press, Hr.

Speaker, includes a breach of the secr~cy provisions of the Cr~inal Code of Canada and also the question c.f perjury, Any matter, as the RC:-fP always do, that they come upon :::~at is in the breac:1 of any la~~· -any law, not just the Criminal Code of Canada-they will investigate it,and they will do it unimpeded and in their own mancer and in their own way. l'!R. :•lEARY: To that I say hear, hear! Not without any interference from the minister. }.!R. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. !' ~ '

April 27,1978 Tape No. 1487 All-2 MR .lliCKl·!AN: There will be no interference from the min!ster. PRENIER MOORES: Hr. Speaker, I was atvay unfortunately when this unfortunate matter came before the House. I came back and,obviously,as I think anybody in my position or any other position in this hen. House, I was upset because we had witnessed the tabling of a document which now will be thoroughly investigated by the police and the blame go where it may. When I came back I obviously talked to the Hinister of Industrial Developmer.t., · . whom I have known for m=y years.

He . has assured me that no money was paid to bribe }!r. Davidson or anyone else, nor wa6 any money received from :1r. Davidsor or Hr. Doyle or anyone else,and I have accepted that. The fact is, Sir, that no member on this side of the House,to my knowledge, iu the Cabinet, has ever lobbied or backbenched,or on the other side for that matter, has ever lobbied to me or the Cabinet on behalf of Davidson or Doyle. I do not thiak, Sir, anyone can say that we have given undue benefits to Mr. Doyle.

Butnow we have to have an absolute and thorough investigation,as has been said,where any perso~ -any person! - whether he be amongst the gener~l public or whether he be any member of this House,if there is any criminal act that has been involved in this House then the courts will deal with it. There will, Sir, be a totally full and complete investigation. I would just like to make a few comments about the gentleman who are involved in this particular allegation. Mr. Ar.drew Davidson's track record is one, Sir, that anyone who is familiar with it or has heard about it - MR. 1'EARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

HR. SPEAKER: A point of order.has co~e up. ~!R. N3ARY: Hr. Speaker, Your Honour knows full well,and - the !·linister of Justice has been lecturing to us in this hon. House for the last ten years anTNay, since the hon. minister has been Minister of Justice,that while there is a police investigation going on it is morally wrong for any member of this House to try and prejudice that investigation ': I ' '· . ' - \~ f

April 27 ,1978 Tape No . 1487 AH-3 ~!R. . :fEARY : or ia.fluen ce it in any way,pol.itically or otherwise , And the uon. gentleman now, Sir , in his rewarks , which are going to be quo ted widely outside of this Ho use,coul very easily prejudice that investigation. Now "''hat does che bon. ~linister of Justice think of c.uac? PRDI!ER ..!OORES: ~ . Speaker, I do not *~t to prejudice the investigatio~ but t he non. member for LaPoile (rr . Near

y) does se~ a bit sensitive on this subject . Z . SPEAKER: I think I do have co deal with the point of order now. Toe claim was n.ot made t hat t:.he maccer is sub judice acd it is n ot co my knowledge sub judice. r aLl not awn.re of a parliamentar~ au-£hority which oorould inform me tilat I must order hon • . members not co refer to matters whlcil might be under police investigation. r am not aware of an authority vhicn woul d require chat:. :!R. :.lEARY: !be ~ister of Justice keeps telling :·m. SPEAKER: Order,please ! I :11nister of Ju.stice may say ac til .• es, 'I am not going to comment on tha t, the re is a police investigation ,' . J ~ I ·' ...

April 27, 1973 Tape No. 1488 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: somebody else might say it. But with all due respect, I do not concoct the rules,nor do I enforce their

interpretation depending upon any member of the Rouse, And the only convention that I am aware of an~ogous.here would be sub judice, which meanslbefore the courts·- it means a bit more than that. it does not mean only th~t - b~t that is the prerequisite, the first requirement. And this is not sub judice and I am not aware of any authority lvhich would require me to order an hon. member not to refer to somet3ing which might be the . subject of a police investigation. If any hon. member is mvare of such an authority I will certainly consider, but I am not aware of it. The hon. Minister of Justice. ~ffi.

RICK...,..Al.'l: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. NEARY: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege has come up. HR. NEARY: In the course of his reply there, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier made a very snide,emark. And I predicted, Sir, that the hon. gentlemen lvould try in thi.s matter, as they have tried before, to smear me, to attack my character, to try to undermine my credibility. The han. gentleman said that the member for LaPoile seems to be awfully sensitive about this matter.

It is not about this matter that I am sensitive, Sir, and this is my point of privilege, that remark was made for a purpose. It is not the police investigation~because I have been the one who has been asking for two and a half years for a very broad police investigation into this matter and I welcome this investigation finally. But, Mr. Speaker, it is the snide remark that the hon. gentleman made, Sir, that I am concerned about, and I would like for Your Honour to give a ruling on whether or not that is parliamentary. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the reason I was, as the Premier said, . sensitive was because of the statement that the Premier made that nobody in his Cabinet had accepted anything from Doyle or from ~·r. Davidson. Now, Sir, that is an untrue statement and I challenge the Premier to put up - I ' \__

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1488 NH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: MR • .NEARY: - to withdraw that statement, or I will put another document - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: I cannot allow any hon. members to suggest to hon. members'if you do this I will do that' and 'if you do this I will table that.' I cannot allow that. The point of privilege which the hon. gentleman raised essentially is that the allegation of sensitivity - }!R. NEARY: The point was aimed, Sir, at tne untru~n. MR. SPEAKER: - is unparliametary. Order, please!

I cannot accept one hon. member saying of another that he is sensitive on this or that does breach his privilege. Obviously if there is an imputation of motive, but there has not to this point so beeg, so I think that disposes of that matter. PREMIER MOORES: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. No, Sir, as I was saying, to the member's point, to my knowledge there has been no payment to any mimsters. I do not think any ministers received any payment of which they were aware, if that is possible. But the fact is, Sir, that Mr. Davidson has been - MR. SIMMONS: They were not included. MR. HICKMAN: Order!

Order l PRE}o(IER IDORES : I mean members can speak for themselves in that regard. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ~ PREmER MOORES: Now, Mr. Speaker - can I finish this in silence7 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! Every hon. member has the right to be heard witho~t interruption. MR. MORGAN: You must have a corrupt mind, a corrupt mind. -4

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1488 NN- 3 PREMIER MOORES: The fact is, Sir, that Mr. Davidson has been in the employ of Mr. Doyle, he has turned against Mr. Doyle, he has on·ce again been Mr. Doyle's flunky. The fact is that Mr. Davidson's . track record, Sir, is not one that we, or I certainly, put much credence in. I do not think the man is as stable as some people would like to think. MR. SIMMONS: Headshrinker Moores. PREMIER MOORES: The first affidavit was circulated, Sir, to the press - }!R. NEARY: (Inaudible) character assassination, pure political venom! Trying to cover up and hide - HR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! PREMIER MOORES : I have not half finished yet, Mr. Speaker. The fact is, Sir, that I have been told this morning that ~r. Davidson has gone underground. He also seems to be gone overseas. He seems to be in Central America again. I just point this out as to ~~here the real source of this particular type of smear material is coming from and that, Sir, is from Panama . and that is from Mr. John C. Doyle. Sir, L will get to a few others later but I want to talk first of all about the ~!inister of Industrial Development.

I do not care what snide remarks come from the other side of the House or anywhere else, the fact is that I have known this gentleman for a long time. No one in this House can say that Dr. Farrell - or the Minister of Industrial Development in his previous vocation, or in his public life, has been anything but a humanitarian f l. ( t

April 27, 1978 Tape 1489 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES: and a man who has cared for people. He has done his best to serve the people of this Province even when he became very seriously ill. He has been friend to a lot of people maybe too many - but certainly and ~specially he has been to me. I believe in him and feel very sorry that he is being stigmatized by John Doyle or John Doyle's henchmen. Mr. Terry White - obviously the police investigation will cover that gentleman and his charges, but I find one thing peculiar, Sir, about the charges that Mr. White makes.

It is very peculiar that the letter happens to be an unsolicited gesture written to a lawyer who is not just Mr. Davidson's lawyer but is also Mr. Doyle's lawyer. How much credibility do you want for a man in Terry White's position, unsolicited, unencouraged to write to John Doyle's lawyer? I suggest, Sir, that that is not a natural thing for Terry White to have done without pressure of some sort or another. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER UOORES: Oh, yes, I am making charges. John Doyle, Mr. Speaker, whether the Opposition like to hear it or not - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! lfR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER MOORES: - John Doyle is a fugitive from justice. MR· NEARY: Go outside the House - PRE}!IER MOORES:, I will say he is a fugitive from justice outside the House, of course, because he is. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER MOORES : The man is MR. SIHMONS: (inaudible) and you will be in court - I r 1 cl

Apr 11 2 7 , 19 7 8 Tape 1489 EC - 2 PRE:!-1IER HOORES: The man is a criminal. MR. SIMMONS: - where you belong. PREHIER MOORES: Just ' a second, Mr. Speaker. HR. HICKMAN: Just a second. On a point of privilege. PREMIER }iQORES: I have - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do have to require the hon. gentleman to my right to withdraw the remark about being in court where one belongs. That is an imputation of wrongdoing,certainly. MR. SIMMONS: it is unparliamentary, ~IR. HICKHAN: MR. WHITE:: SOl1E liON. MEl·WERS : MR. SPF,AT(ER: Mr. Speaker, I gladly, because withdraw it. That is not a withdrawal. That is a withdr~w~l.

Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please~ The allegation made by the bon. gentleman to my right was that the Premier should be in court where he belongs. The Chair interjected and said the matter should be withdrawn, it was an allegation of wrongdoing. The hon. gentleman said, 'Because it is unparliamentary, I withdraw it.' The Chair is put in very difficult circumstances when matters of tone are part of a withdrawal.

The literal words were, 'Because it is unparliamentary, I withdraw it.' I think the parliamentary requirements have been fulfilled in the strict and technical sense,and all the Chair can enforce is the rules of parliament and not manners or courtesy or those things. Every hon. member on all sides r~ave those, but the technical requirements of the rules are all that I can enforce. I cannot do anything else. MR. SIMMONS: I am not anxious to put the Chair in any awkward position at all. There will be an opportunity to deal with the Premier's charges at the right time and expose them for what he is saying.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1489 EC - 3 ~1R. SIMMONS: But without reservation and without hanging on any parliamentary technicalities, I withdraw the statement. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER MOORES: The matter is now disposed of. The hon. the Premier. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, Sir, about Mr. John C. Doyle, I find it incredible that a man with his record of involvement in this Province, his record before the courts, can still manipulate people in this country for the sake of personal vendetta or his credibility or to manipulate Javelin or whatever.

MR. m;:ARY: Name them! ~a~ them: PREMIER MOORES: I will, do not worry. The fact is, Sir, that Mr. Doyle, himself, does not have the credibility so he uses flunkies who have been bought and ·who will go to any extremes in fear of Mr. Doyle. The fact is, Sir, this government has never been a friend of Doyle's. People like that we in government would rather not see in this Province as developers, promoters or any other kind. There never has been any lobbying by any member and the public knows this. The fact is, Sir, the real issue is Mr. Doyle, of course, is not happy with this government.

I suggest that he wants to arrange a situation where he either discredits us or can manipulate someone else. say Sir, the rules of this House

April 27, 1978 Tape 1490 PREMIER HOORES: very clearly, Jule 77, "The offer of any money or other advantage ~o any member of this House,for the promoting of any matter whatsoever,depending or to be transacted in ~rl i~>mP.nt, is a high crime and misde_mea~ur'.' And number 78, "If it shall appear that any person has been elected and returned a member of this House,or endeavouring so to be, by bribery,or any other corrupt practices,this House shall proceed with the utmost severity against all such persons as shall have been ~illfullv concerned in such bribery or other corrupt practices." I suggest, Sir, that after the police investigation I would like to think that those rules would not come into play,but if they do,for any member on either side of the House,and if it is proven that that is the case,I suggest, Sir, they tvill come into play on' no uncertain terms.

NR. NEARY: What a smear artist! PRBHER MOORES : The fact is, Sir, the hon. member for LaPoile C~r. Neary) says;'What a smear artist';and, Sir, I will tell you,it certainly takes one to know one,I will tell you that in that particular case. He talked a few minutes ago about the lack of his credibility-he .has none anyway. Dl-1 - 1 MR. NEARY: You are playing the mug game, 'Frankie Baby', but you are going to get caught this time. PRE!'IER ~!CORES: The matter is, Sir, that this whole matter stinks! One thing is for sure, when the evidence is in someone will pay the full price. SO}!E RON.

I·~'JlERS: Hear, hear! ~1R. ~EARY: That is right! PREMIER }!CORES : And another thing I will say, Sir, is that this government will not be intimidated both by Doyle or his mouthpiece-:;, This government <~ill not be intimidated by John C. Doyle in Panama who is in touch with people here to do their work for them, people in this Province. The fact is, Sir, that public life in this Province, people have come to expect this -. ·I

April 27, 1978 Tape 149f1 l'H - 2 PREUER HOOJ!ES: sort of dirt and this sort of fi·lth and it is not good enough. I say, Sir, that we had to have some aecency, some respect - and some honor. HR. S • NE.<\RY : Since you took over every- thing has happened. MR • S I}']'fONS : Hear, hear: PRENIER MOOP.FS: Sir, if you want to get back since I took over, if you ~Qs.nt to get back - som: RON. ~~l"BERS : Oh, oh: HR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! PP.EHIER ¥CORES: - if you want to get back the transcripts that we do have - sm~ HON. MEMBF.?.S: Oh, oh!

Sir, if we want to get ~ack the transcripts of ~~hat happened prior to our taking over, and if ~~e want to get back to information that the police will have about what happened before anr! since, then, Sir, we 1-1ill find out what the real story is. But '·7hat I 1-1as saying, Sir, is that :!.n public life in this Province - You have not got a decent bone in your body. P~~fiER liDO RES: - it is unfortunate that decency, respect and ~onor is net in play anymore then it is in this House. AN HON. ~!EMBER: SOME RON. YPffiERS : ~'R. SPFA.KER: MR. W.N. ROt-m: If you 1-1ant to do the decent thing, resign! Hear, hear!

The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Hhat can one say in resTionse to the like of that, Mr. Speaker? The most disgraceful statement ever u;ade by any Minister of the Crown in this Province. Making prejudicial statements after his colleague has risen in the House and stated that a police inquiry has been commissioned and will be undertaken, statements prejudicial to that kind of an inquiry. Sir, the mug game-I am not going to get into that same kind of a game. It is easy to cast aspersions back across the House.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1490 nw - 3 HR. W .N. P.Olo/E: I am merely going to ask one or two questions of the ~linister of Justice now, Sir, which I would like to have answered because they bear on this. I would like to know if the Executive Assistant of the Minister of Industrial Deyelopment, Mr. Terrence White is he still on the government payroll? If he is not on the government payroll now, when did he go off the government payroll? I would like to know, Sir, if the Minister of Justice knows where l·!r. I·Thite is now or if the police know where he is now?

If the reports on the air that he has skipped town, skipped out of St. John's- out of Newfoundland even-are in fact correct? ~!R. NEARY: For his life. Run for his life. }'fR. W .N. ROVIE: If he left, were the police instructed by the Hinister of Justice immediately upon these allegation being tabled in this House - ~'R. NEA.RY : Or did he stall? MR. W.N. ROHE: in this letter by Mr. H'hite, did the minister instruct the RC}~ to immediately contact this gentleman - I believe he was around the House on the same evening , if I remember correctly - to get a statement from him on these allegation?

Or was there a delay by the police or by the ~linister of Justice - I am not saying deliberately - but was there a delay which has now allowed a person who can give key evidence in this case to skip out of town, out of this Province, out of this country perhaps, Mr. Speaker? These are questions which I direct to the ~inister of Justice because they are very important questions. ,\n investigation should have been commissioned five minutes after t~ese docume~ts were tabled in this hon. House because the allegations were that serious and apparently founded on credible people, credible witnesses.

I do not know this man Davidson and I am not prepared to make a comment one way or the other. The Premier seems to be very familiar with him. -' ; r

April 27, 1978 Tape 1491 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Well he was in the Premier's house several times so the hon. gentleman should know him MR. W. ROWE: . I do not lmow h:im. MR. NEARY: - and talked to him on the phone a mumber of times. MR. W. ROWE: I would not know him from Adam. But Terrance White - MR. NEARY: The member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells), and the Minister of Industrial Development. i'!IR. W. ROWE: - is the minister's Executive Assistant. Now where is he? Is he in the Province? Have the police talked to him? Have the police been instructed to talk to him?

Or is he now goner And will he be available for a police investigation or if a trial is held or anything like that! These are :important questions, Sir, which the Minister of Justice has not answered and appar~ntly will not answer. Now, Sir, I am going to sit down. I am not going to say anything else about the disg~aceful statement made by the Premier of this Province. My colleague wanted to get up immediately and reply to him on a point of privilege. I said, no,I wanted to make my few words in reply to the Premier.

But my colleague, Sir, I know has a point of privilege which he wants to raise because statements made by the Premier in his statement, Sir, MR. NEARY: They are misleading. MR. W. ROWE: - misled this House. And there is documentary proof thereof which my colleague would like to raise as a point of privilege, violation of the privileges of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the han. the Premier deliberately misled the House or not, only time will tell, but the gentleman certainly misled the House. I am raising a point of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, and I intend to prove beyond any shadow of doubt, Sir, that in this outburst by the Premier to try to prejudice the I _I •· I I I· j I I I ~ \ T t ;

April 27, 1978 Tape 1491 (afternoon) PK-2 MR. NEARY: investigation - and, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge Mr. Doyle is not the one who is on trial here. Mr. Doyle has his own problems. And the hon. the Premier must be aware of that because the hon. the Premier chatted with the gentleman for an hour last Fall on the phone, and tried to make a deal with Mr. Doyle. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out that I cannot allow any hon. member in getting the attention of the House and the recognition of the Chair on a point of privilege to enter into a debate. I would ask him to state the allegation. MR. NEARY: My point of privilege is this, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman in his remarks said that to his knowledge nobody in his Cabinet or on his side of the House had ever received any benefits from Mr. Doyle, or none of his Cabinet colleagues or his backbenchers had any dealings with Mr. Davidson, who had a very poor track record according to the Premier.

Well, Sir, there is a member of the Premier's Cabinet who did receive favours from Mr. Doyle no later than July of last year. And that gentleman, Sir, is the genlteman who started this discussion this afternoon with his ministerial statement. And I have in front of me, Mr. Speaker, a document which I will read and then table in the House, Sir. It may be the first time that the hon. the Premier saw it, and that is why I say I am not sure whether he deliberately misled the House or not, only the hon. the Premier can answer that. I have a document, Sir, from the El Panama Hotel addressed to Mr. John C.

Doyle, care of the Povovia S.A. Post Office Box 951, Panama IRP - can I have the hon. gentleman's attention, please? "Dear Mr. Doyle: This is to confirm that we have reserved a ·~ lt cabana room for Mr. T.C. Farrell of Corner Brook, Newfoundland to l. I be available

April 27, 1978 Tape 1491 (Afternoon) !'K - 3 M:t. Neary: on his arrival the evening of July 3, 1977. Payment for these aec01111110dations will be for your account. Signed the ASsistant Manager." And, M:t. Speaker, in case that is not evidence enough for the hon. the Premier,I i)ave the bill for $478 on one bill, and $428 on another bill charged to Canadian Javelin,signed by Mr. Doyle on behalf of the hon. gentleman, Thomas Farrell, Cail.ada, St. John's, Newfoundland. Commerical rate 2.0 per cent, Canadian Javelifl. And.

I have the itinerary of the hon. gentleman from the time he left Canada until he returned, an itinerary from Voyagues Pentagon Travel Agency in Montreal. I would !ike to lay this document on the table of the House, Sir. Now, Mr. Speaker, to my point of privilege,one other matter that I want to raise, and that is, s·i:t, the Premier's reference to the fact that none of frl.s colleagues would have anything to do with Mr. Davidson. That again, Sir, is misleadi6.g the House, and I have evidence to prove that a number of colleaPUes of the hon. the Premier, including the Premier himself, Sir, has entertained Mr.

Davidson at his home on more than one occasion. he tried to tape the hon. gentleman once in his kitchen up in Mount Scio House. But, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Industrial Development has been a close first perso11al friend of Mr. Davidson's up to recently, up to recent weeks,

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1492 MR. NEARY: a close personal friend. and dined in Comer Brook and in }lontreal, They have wined and my hon. friend NM- 1 is a close personal friend. And the point I want to make, Sir, is - to clarify or to point out how the Premier misled the House the hon. gentleman has had numerous telephone conversations with this gentleman of which I have some transcripts, and so has the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells), a year and a half or two years ago, talking about Julien · Lake to Mr. Davidson on the phone in a very friendly manner, supporting his cause and I have evidence to prove that.

So, Mr. Speaker, to prove my point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: I must point out that under privilege the rule is quite specific as to what an hon. member may do under that recognition. So I would ask the hon. gentleman to b~ing his remarks to a conclusion because I think he has strayed somewhat from the strict definition. MR. NEARY: Well to draw my remarks to a conclusion, I can only assume, Mr. Speaker, that the han. the Premier was completely · ignorant of the facts or deliberately misled the House,and only the Premier can set that matter straight and I ask Your Honour - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: I do have to require the han. gentleman to withdraw the latter part, "or deliberately misled the House." MR. NEARY: I withdraw that and say, or misled the House, Mr. Speaker, in making false and untrue statements to members of this hon. House, and I ask the hon. gentleman now if in all decency, if the han. gentl=an has any principle left, to ·get up and apologize to the House for misleading the House in these matters. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. Minister of Industrial Development, and I think the rubric here is the same as was operative when the House commenced.

Actually I think the statement of the hon. gentleman to my right came under May 343, "a personal explanation on the matter of

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1492 NH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: privilege which needs a decision from the Chair," the hon. gentleman to my left is now lDl.der the rubric of commenting thereon because what was stated did affact him or did refer to the hon. Minister of Industrial Development as well. The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Sir, I am not in the habit, as I think is well known in this House, of making remarks about any individual or any person.

I do not think that anybody has heard me across this floor ever use a word at any time in the years I have been here - I have missed quite a bit of it -of allegations or dirt • or slurs or remarks of any kind against anybody. And as far as these visits are concerned, I have not the slightest knowledge and made it a point prior to this, because I kne<.J I would be in an area where I could be suspect- I am not completely stupid, Your Honour. I went through medical school - there is no way, in any way, that I would have gotten involved directly with Mr. Doyle.

Maybe I was a patsy on a certain thing because I went with a company called Daycrete which is involved. And I was very sorry at one point for -- and I think mayje the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) might in some lucid molll-ent might agree with this - t :tat there was a period that I felt very sorry for this individual. I became very friendly during my illness. I must say he was extremely good to me - and I had many illnesses - particularly in the Montreal - Toronto area where his family lives.

He was very friendly with several friends of mine, one of them in a department of this government, whom I respect his opinion highly. I was going to mention his daughte~but I do not think I should so, who is a friend of mine, who worked through the Red Cross and whom I have dealt with. And over the period that we are talking about that has just been brought up, at no time. and I ~~de that very clear, that I was to be involved in any way politically or officially, with Mr. Doyle or his group. Now on this obviously there is something I have to check on. Hopefully the RCHP will be checking on this and how this

A.prll 27, 1978 Tape No. 1492 DR. rARRELL: has occurred. But whether I was played for the proverbial sucker or not, perhaps I was, the point about it, Sir, that I can swear on any bible, take any test, that I had no knowledge at any time that Mr. Doyle was involved i:n that. You did bump into him in a hotel. DR. FARRELL: No , I did not. I :-as just saying I did not expect to - MR. NEARY: The bon. gentleman is quoted as saying he bumped into Mr. Doyle. DR. FARRELL : Order, Sir. Order, Sir. I am making the point that r had no involvement or no intention NM - 3 , .. l l ' f.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1493 EC - 1 DR. FARRELL: You know, I am making the point that I had no involvement or no intention, no knowledge that I was going to have any official dealings with Mr. Doyle. That is all I want to say. That will all come out eventually, Sir. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, having been referred to - HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kilbride. MR. WELLS: -by the hon. gentleman from LaPoile, I suppose I have to comment. Yes, this Mr. Davidson has telephoned me on numerous occasions. He has come to see me in my office. I have never acted for him as a lawyer. MR. NEARY : The Premier \inaudible) MR.

WELLS: Well, why should he? If somebody telephones me, Mr. Speaker, there is certainly nothing incumbent upon me to get in touch with the Premier - MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman like for me to table - MR. WELLS: Table? MR. NEARY: - what the hon. gentleman thinks of his colleagues? MR. WELLS: Table? Absolutely, because - MR. NEARY: Very interesting indeed. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: I am speaking, Mr. Speaker. The man would telephone me from time to time. Long discussions would ensue in which I listened and Mr. Davidson talked. MR. NEARY: And made no comment? The hon. gentleman made no comment.

HR. lvELLS: Now whatever we said, I would be

April 27, 1978 Tape 1493 EC - 2 MR. WELLS: interested in seeing. But the trouble is in these things - you wonder, it is interesting you know; that apparently now you cannot even have a telephone conversation when somebody calls you without taping it. I guess that is the kind of society we live in. I would be interested to see the conversations. I think you would find - MR. NEARY: Very, very in-te£es 't:l.ng. be glad to see it too. The hon. the premier would MR. WELLS: - 99 per cent talked by the gentleman concerned, Mr. Davidson,and monosyllabic remarks for the most part, I would say, by myself.

Fortunately, he paid for the calls when he called me. A couple of times when he left his number I called him back and I guess I paid for the calls. So thank God that is so, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: The han. the Premier would be interested in the han. -. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. N. ROWE: Sir, I can only repeat the question I asked the han. the Minister of Justice on two occasions this afternoon so far and he refuses to answer for some reason beyond me. But the question I want to ask is with regard to this gentleman ' whom I do not know.

I think I have seen him wandering around the House every now and then - one, Terrence White . Is he the executive assistant of the Minister of Industrial Development or not? question number one. AN RON. }!EMBER: Yes. MR. H. N. ROWE: Question number two, Is he on the payroll? Well, I want to ask the Minister of Justice~~ my final question is directed to him and that is the most ~ I I

April 27, 1978 Tape 1493 EC - 3 MR. W. N. ROWE: important question of all. Is he still on the payroll or has he been laid off or fired or did he quit? And finally, Sir, did the Minister of Justice take the elementary precaution of asking the police to interrogate Mr. White once these allegations were placed on the table of the House? Has he been interrogated by the police? Does the Minister of Justice know that? Did the Minister of Justice ask that that be done? MR.

SPEAKER: Before the hon. the minister replies, I would like to welcome to the House on behalf of all hon. members some visitors in the gallery from the community council of Tilting in Fogo district, and they are the chairman, Mr. Roy Dwyer,an~ the members, Mr. Fergus Follett, Mr. Clem Dwyer and Mr. Gerard Green. I know hon. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. XR. HICL"!AN: I have no hesitancy at all in answering the question by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

I did not answer it arising out of other ministerial statements by other ministers. Number one, I do not know whether Mr. Terrence White is still employed with the Government of Newfoundland or not. HR. NEARY: The minister should know. HR. HICKMAN: I have checked w~th his minister and he informs me that he has not been told - yesterday, as you know, the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development had some other difficulties -by anyone that Mr. White has terminated his employment. And the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development tells me that as of now he has not

April 27, 1978 Tape 1493 EC - 4 MR. HICKMAN,: terminated Mr. White's employment. D#.. FARRELL: I have not seen him. MR. ll,IC101AN: And he has not seen h~m to do it. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I do not instruct the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as to ~han tbey should interrogate or as to wliOm -they should not interrogate, I would hope I do not, because that would be the kind of - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: I beg your pardo~? MR. N,EARY: Sit on the evidence. MR. SIMMONS: The minister just decides to do the evidence and give it (inaudible) MiL HICKMAN: That is right.

I let the Director of Public Prosecutions make the decisio~ and he will prosecute anyone against whom there is suffLcient evidence. MR. SIMMONS: - how he decides poli:tically or otherwise, PRE}!IER MOORES: That is unb ei":!..e~~ble - y-ou know, i t is incredible. MR . HICKMAN: Now, Mr. Speaker, am I permitted to - Let me report to this House,as I did yesterday,tbat i:mmed ia tel y , at the ear liest opportunit y, which 1 ~as

April 27,1978 Tape No. 1494 AH-1 i1R. HICK: !AJ.'l" : nine o'clock yesterday morning,I delivered to the Deputy ltinister of Justice the alleged affidavit and the purported letter annexed thereto that was tabled in this House by the han. the member for LaPoile C1r. Neary) and asked that. he review it with the Director of Public Prosecutions ~nd any other person connected therewith. I do know and I have been advised by the :leputy l1inister of Justice that on the next mornin~- on that same morning that he together with the Director of Public rrosecutions met with the commercial crime

section of the Royal Canadian Nounted Police. AN HON. ~!EMBER: When was that? :-IR. HICIC1AN: Yesterday morning. I am not going to comcent, and I repeat I will not c~mment,on the manner in which the Royal Canadian 11ounted Police conduct - MR. NEARY: What ahnnt !Jh:f. tE;? l~hat about I·Tnite? MR. HICKl1AN: I have no idea where :-1r. White is, I have no idea, Mr.

Speaker, where anyone who may be wanted for questioning by the R~~. where they are 1 I do not a&k them The ?..Cl1P are given documents, they are taking instructions from the Director of Public Prosecutions,and they go out and they conduct their investigation. :-IR. NEARY: What a stall. It is all a stall. r!R. i:!ICIOIAN: I do not think it will be a stall, In fact,I will assure this House that it will be a very prompt, vigorous investigation, quickly and with all the manpower that the RCNP deem appropriate and necessary. NR. NEARY: Yes, when we were looking for it for two years. :•IR • lv.

ROIVE : A supplementary. :-IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. lv. ROI.'E: It sounds suspiciously, Sir, like there was a delay to me, I am not saying a deliberate one~but a delay in going after the people who were making allegations. Let me ask the ~inister, has the minister fired or talked to or sought out his executive assistant, }rr. White? Where is he? Is he in town or is he out of the Provine? Is he gone? Is he here? Is he down in the department? Where is he? The

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1494 AH - 2 ~IR. W. ROWE: minister's Executive Assistant, getting what? $19,000 a year of public money. ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. DR. FARRELL: I had some other difficulties yesterday which occurred, and believe it or not, I did not have any knowledge of what had occurred in the !Iouse the evening before. And there have been certain l:Uiaours and allegations going around about that. And I did not - Ai'l HON. HEM.BER: rHa, ha, ha! Tell us another one. DR. FARRELL: Excuse me, Your Honour? Does the hon. member feel that I am lying? MR. PECKFORD: lie said tell us another one.

You said tell us another one. DR. FARRELL: Tell us another one. ~~ liON. ~!EMBER: I did not say he was lying. HR. HICJQ:!A.'l: Well, what does that mean? DR. FARRELL: What does the member mean? Ml HON. ML"!BER: Tell me another one. }ffi.. PECKFORD: Like what? DR. FARRELL: Anyway, Sir, like I said I am not used to attacking anyone and I am not going to , But anyway, I had no knowledge of this thing. I checked with my medical man ~• ho asked me to rest up for the day, I had some chest problems and had some smoke problems, and I rested for the day . T11is morning I was hand delivered a letter from i1r.

White which I l~ve not had time to really study. We were discussing some other things because a lot of this stuff has just come to my knowledge and I was trying to get the transcripts and the whole bit and piece. At the Lloment I believe l1r. lfuite has terminated his appointment with me, to my knowledge at the moment, that is as far as I know. ~IR. PECKFORD: Has he or has he not? HR. HICKMAl'-1: Did you say has or has not? DR. FARRELL: As I said to my knowledge I feel that he may have . MR. PECKFORD: But will he? Are you going to or what? DR. FARRELL: As soon as I see him he will be terminated.

I ~ I I I ~ I I I~ I' I _, j, ~li I~ It i l.! 1:. I

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1494 AH - 3 SOME HO:'I • }!EMBERS : Oh, oh! HR. :l"EARY: (Inaudible) down to cancel the loan. MR. w. RO~: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition. !JR. ....:. RO\o.'E: What should be a very simple point, Sir, it seems a s.1ame to be wasting the ti.ille of the House: w:oa. t is tile mini,; ter telling us? lias his Executive Assistant quit or has he been fired or what? What is going on here?

Here is a man who :1as made grave allegations a~ainst his lord and :naster. llow is he fired, is he still on the government payroll, does the minister know if he is in town or gone? Do you know anything about him? DR. FARRELL: I thoug:1t I explained that to you. MR. !lEARY: Anci has the minister got the letter there in front of hiLl? DR. FA.1RELL: I ahve not seen him, Your Honour, ~nd when I do I shall be informing him t:1at his time is terminated as far as I am concerned. A supplementary, :·Ir. Speaker. 11..1.

SPEAKER: A supplecentary. :L:,. :<EARY: Is the hon. gentlecan telling the !:louse that he i1as a letter of resignation from Hr. White anli now - DR. FARRELL: I said I received a letter, tl1a t is all. &:i llON • l1E}!BER: fie had not read it. c\~1 HO!>! • HDillER: Oh, he !las not read it yet. P 1::ElliER m oaE s : (Inaudible) table it in the House yet. DR. FAP.RELL: It will be at soce time or another. Well, does t'1e hen. gentleman have ti1e letter 1,;ith nim, in ,'front of him or is it in his office? Can the i1on. gentleman send for it and have it brought to the House? DR. FARRELL: Why? l1R. NEARY: Why?

April 27, 1978 Tape 1495 PK - 1 MR. Neary: because we want the information. We want to know - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - if Mr, White has resigned or if he is still an employee of the government? Or has he been fired? We would like to know. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: The hon. gentleman asked a simple question of the hon.

Minister of Industrial Development,whether or not Mr, Terrence Whitetwho has been in his employ as an Executive Assistant,is still in his employ. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right. MR. HICKMAN: If I may repeat what the hon. gentleman just said was that he has not seen Mr. Terrence White, that he has received today a hand delivered letter from Mr. Terrence White, which he says, is not- and he was asked if it was a letter of resignation- and he said it was not. So therefore it is not relevant to this question, and he does not know whether Mr.

White has terminated his employment with the Government of Newfoundland or not, but that he, the Minister of Industrial Development,when he next sees Mr. White will tell him that he intends to terminate his employment. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Why? MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary? MR. SPEAKER: A supplementray, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Why is the minister going to terminate Mr. White's employment? Does he know whether these allegations that were laid on the table of the House were they in fact from Mr. White? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. I ~. r ~ I ... ' .. . I ·. ~

April 27, 1978 Tape 1495 DR. FARRELL: Because the a~legations made by Mr. White were untrue. MR. W. ROWE: Oh, I see. They have already (inaudible). MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice, Sir, has been referring to alleged affidavits and alleged documents. Now the han. gentleman is firing his Executive Assistant for making certain charges and allegations. Is the hon. gentleman confirming that indeed these allegations were made by Mr. White in his own handwriting? MR. WHITE: Say something. MR. W.

ROWE: Come on,boy say,something will you? MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Somebody answer. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier in sp~aking to this matter earlier, I believe, in a Ministerial Statement,earlier in the sitting this afternoon, indicated that he was of the fmpression that Mr. White's letter might have been written and signed under some pressure.

Now since that is certainly a possibility, I put it to the Minister of Industrial Development, is it not premature for hfm to decide that he would terminate the employment of his Executive Assistant? Is it not possible, would he not agree,that it is ~ossible that Mr. White has been a victfm of circumstance~ possibly, if the Premier's thesis is true that he might have done so under duress or under pressure? Would you not want to MR. WHITE: Why fire hfm? MR. SIMMONS: - hear what his case is before deciding whether he indeed is anything but an innocent victfm?

Has the minister-' am asking the Minister of Industrial Development a question. I am asking does he agree, has he decided to terminate the employee's contract without finding out the facts of the case? Or does the Minister ,. ' . t I. !

April 27, 1978 Tape 1495 Pk - 3 Mr. Simmons: of Industrial Development already know the facts of the case, and are the facts such that would dictate that he terminate the employment of Mr. White? MR. NEARY: The king of the smear artists. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I understood from the minister - and I have talked to him about it- the reason Mr, White has not been fired is because he has not seen him to talk to him about it, just that very point. The fact is if Mr.

White did write such a letter, no matter under what conditions,obvi~usly he would fired by the minister for the simole reason of disloyalitv if nothing else. AN RON. MEMBER: What kind of justice is that? MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Would the han. Minister of Industrial Development indicate to the House if this is the first time that Mr. White's services have been terminated as Executive Assistant to the han, gentleman? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development, DR. FARRELL: No, Sir. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the han. gentleman indicate under what circumstances Mr. White's services were terminated , and how many times were they terminated and under what circumstances were they terminated? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Approximately a year ago, Sir, it came to my attention that Mr. White had been involved in a business with some other people which I felt might possibly be a conflict of interest - PREMIER MOORES : He got a loan from here. DR. FARRELL : Pardon? .. I I· .. '" i I~ I

April 27, 1978 Tape 1495 Pk- 4 PREMIER MOORES: ffe got a loan from here. DR. FARRELL: Yes, and had a loan from the Rural Development Department for a group and I had, you know, great difficulty - this was a conflict of interest - but prior to that he had - th.e man'twho I regard as an unfortunate individual, very serious martial problems, I hate to be bringing this uo at the time - but SOME RON. ME!offiERS : What! DR. FARRELL: No, I am sorry ! I am sorry ! SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, please! DR.

FARRELL: What I am saying - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the hon . lllinister to please allow me? DR. FARRELL: Sure. MR. SPEAKER.: I must poin ·t out to bon. gentlemen that whatever their difference of opinion, the~ opinions of one another, or of what a question is, or of what an answer is, there are certain basic decencies which to my knowledge t ,. I ' i ~ I

April 27, 1978 Tape 1496 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER: every Legislature in the Commonwealth observes,and which have to be enfo-rced. I realize people may take strong exception to Mhat another han. member says and in a period of debate this attacked as harshly as long as it is done within the rules,but I do have to point out to hon. members that the rules precluding debate duri~g Question Period have to be observed and that the calling sort of back across the House from one side to the other of uncomplimentary,to put it mildly,remarks can lead to nothing but deterioration. SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR..

SPEA.'{ER: I believe he was in thP. DR. T. FARRELL: Hear, hear! I interrupted the hon. minister. n.f answering. I am sorry, Sir. This was serious personal problems which I helped them with. And I probably expressed and I ask the excuse of the House-or the House to forgive that slip because it was not meant in any harmful way There are serious personal problems.~e found it difficult to follow his work patterns. ~e was not able to operate very well. liP. had 2riefs. PREMIER MOORES : Now I find it hard to explain problems,but - You do not have to explain, just say it was personal problems. DR.

T. !'A!'.RELL: Personal problems which : actuaJ1v I helped him with.md on this one I felt-and I know it nas been used in this so I will not go into it as it is being us":d in his documents that I discarded him or let his services go at that time and said try and work out your problems and we will see in the future how it works out and that is exactly how it happened. 'MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hen. gentleman retracted that remark, Sir, because if hon. gentleman are going to talk about marital problems certainly hon. gentleman on

April 27, 1978 Tape 1496 MR. NEARY: the other side of the House know all about it because they have their share of problems according to these transcripts that I have. So the hon. gentle- man should not drag personal matters into this House and the hon. gentleman has done it and the hon. the Premier has done it. Character assassination - DW - 2 HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! 1-'R. NEARY : Sir, what I am asking the hon. - }ffi.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! AN HON. MEMJlER: Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: I must rule on the term of character assassination.

People may think what they wish but in the House~in the Legislature,cannot allow certain terms and that will be one of them. I will ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw. MR. NEARY: I withdraw, Sir , and I will ask the hon. gentleman now if the hon. gentleman had taken the trouble when Mr. White went in business to "check with the Auditor General to see if indeed Hr. White was in conflict of interest. Why the minister forced Mr. Hhite off the payroll? Why he threatened to fire the gentleman? Why did he not check with the Auditor General?

The minister is a Minister of the Crown, The gentleman is ranning-the Deputy Premier next to the Premier himself,the number two man in this Province,why did that gentleman not pick up his telephone or have somebody pick up the phone and call the Auditor General to ask him if ¥r. Hhite was in conflict of interest? I am sure the Deputy Premier,the President of the Council,the number two man in this Province could have done that. 1-'R. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. DR. T.

FARRELL: At that time, Sir, I had doubts about it and I did not want my executive assistant be involved in any business,outside business, personal business. He ·-

April 27, 1978 Tape 1496 DR. T. FARRELL: · was dealing with me and that.was the point I was making, Sir. I certainly did not-! did not think it was my place to go and check with the Auditor General.! felt that this is the way I wanted it at the time, and that is why. MR. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: ~.NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, will the han. gentleman tell us what the relationship between Mr. White and the han. gentleman has been over the last several months since ~r. White was taken back on the payrollrAnd under what circum­ stances.

When was the han. gentleman advised that he was going mv- 3 to be taken back on the payroll? And how has been their relation­ ship over the past several months? DR. T. FARRELL: Glad to do it. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. DR. T. FARRELL: It was brought to ~ attention by friends of ~1r. White, colleagues etc., that he was going through an even rougher period and I myself was starting to come back to,hope­ fully,full health. Late in the Fall I had some words with Mr. White and said if· I went back to a very active post ·I might have a position available for him.

In the interim I discovered through a family doctor who called me personally that Mr. Hhite had a very serious eye condition,which looked like total blindness, called retinitis pigmentosa. it is a co~genital dise~se which, thi~k­ ing back over the _past and our early days together I got extremely worried about it. I made a point cif trying to _get in touch with him,which I ,had great difficulty doing.

He was living in the Stephenville area.! was on my way myself for a checkup on my own eye problems to one of the better eye surgeons in Canada,and I felt that the only hope,because there was no center in Canada for this particular condition at that time that I knew of and that

April 27, 1978 Tape 1496 DR. T. FARRELL: he might know of .r brought him with me to have a checkup on the eye problem which turned out to be not this particular condition,luckily,and was treatable by laser treatment. And in the process I felt that he had had such a rugged time and had gone through such a DW - 4 r. ' • t I c I I ~

April 27, 1978, Tape 1497, Page 1 -- apb DR. FARRELL: nervous state over this eye problem that when I went back into a full department I would take him back with me, and that I did, Sir. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hen. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Industrial Development. In the last few minutes he has obviously indicated to the House that he knows Mr. White quite well and has considerable confidence in his ability and certain compassion for his personal problems. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I put to him the question I attempted to put earlier: why has the Minister of Industrial Development decided to terminate the employment of Mr. White before he has talked to him, before he knows whether or not the letter which he signed was signed, as the Premier suggested, under some kind of duress or pressurei Why is it the minister has decided - from something he said a moment ago - why has he already decided to terminate the employment of Mr. White? Has he sufficient evidence to come to the conclusion that Mr. White was, in signing that letter, aware of what he was doing?

Can the minister enlighten us on that point? I cannot understand, Mr. Speaker, why it is he has decided already to terminate Mr. White's employment unless there is something we are not hearing from the minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Sir, I have not seen Mr. White. I am waiting to see Mr. White. MR. NEARY: And you are going to fire him when you see him. DR. FARRELL: Not necessarily. I am going to try to find out exactly what is behind these h J ' . .

April 27, 1978, Tape l497, Page 2 -- apb DR. FARRELL: certain allegations. How can I do it until I talk to him? I have not had the opportunity to see Mr. White and until I do so, I am not going to make any decision. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary ·. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: For clarification, Mr. Speaker; the minister then is retracting a statement he made about fifteen or twenty minutes ago which went almost word for word as follows: "When I see him I am going to fire him." Now the minister, I understand, is now retracting that statement and is willing. DR.

FARRELL: I would fire him right now if he did indeed write this. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Excuse me! If he did write this under pressure, I said, I am certainly going to fire him, you know. MR. W.N.ROWE: It is like a Reach For The Top team. A supplementary, Sir. They are like a Reach For The Top team over there, conferring on their answers, Mr. Speaker. As my hon. colleague said, Bob Cole should be over there. MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible) more than confer. AN HON. MEMBER: You reach for the bottom. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

W.N.ROWE: Oh no, Sir, if I wanted to reach for the bottom I would reach across the House. MR. NEARY: We are looking right across at the bottom of the barrel now. MR. W.N.ROWE: We are looking at it, Sir, from here now. MR. NEARY: I have been looking at it for

April 17, 1978, Tape 1497, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: six years. MR. MORGAN: You are going to the bottom fast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W.N.ROWE: Ah yes. Yes. Going to the bottom fast. That hon. gentleman\ What about if the hon. minister never - MR. NEARY: Corne over,boy,until I show you some transcripts. MR. W.N.ROWE: - sees Mr. White again which seems to be more and more the likelihood, Sir, from reports outside the House and radio stations. The fact that the minister has not seen his own executive assistant, which is an unbelievable, incredible circumstance in itself, what does he intend to do?

Is he going to - what is he going to do? Does he have any idea now where he is; for example? Has any knowledge come to the minister as to where his executive assistant is at this moment? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industrial Development. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I have been asked a series of questions there- if I see the executive assistant again. Hopefully I will see him again, Sir, and if I do not see him again I will appoint another executive assistant. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a week ago today in this House, the Minister of Tourism informed the House that he had made a helicopter trip to Chelsea in the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde on a Sunday afternoon, August 14, I think. I want to ask the Minister of Tourism, the former Minister of Transportation and Cornrnunications,how many people did the minister plan to meet there on that day? Was there a delegation? And what was the reason for that flight? f I· I'

April 27, 1978, Tape 1497, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tdurism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. SJ?eakex, ven . gladly. Th~ request for a meeting came from a Mr. Phipps a I~ I recall - I forget his first name - ~e was a former engineer who worked with the Department of Highways at one time. He requested a meeting,he came into-St.

John's to meet with me personally and the department staff, there- were. letters fr~ hi.Jn asking me to travel to the area. recall his request very vividly because he requested me, and he mentioned two officials he did not want to come along because he felt the officials were the obstacle in not getting the work done. I I explained to him that I would like to take the officials with me. ·. I

April 27, 1978 Tape 1498 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: It was on a Sunday afternoon. For at least two weeks in a row I could not find time during the week because of very heavy commitments, and I recall on Sunday afternoon taking a helicopter, flying out to the area, meeting with Mr. Phip~s and a number of other people from the same area who have had a problem with a road which was marked as a local road,but he felt it was not a local road and he wanted some upgrading and reconstruction carried out. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering would the minister have the common decency to inform the member for the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) that he was going out there and also invite him along so that both men would be filled in on what the problem was? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: I hope, Mr. Speaker, I do have common decency in all matters pertaining to government. And I would say, last year in my travels as Minister of Transportation it would be quite difficult for the members of the Opposition to catch up with me. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Ub, oh! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the minister has indicated that he had gone out there on a S .unday afternoop. at government expense to investigate a local road problem. How does the minister, Mr. Speaker, the former Minister ofT. and C., rationalize making a special trip to see one individual, or two or three individuals about a local road problem when on numerous occasions that same minister refused to meet delegations who were prepared to come in to

April 27, 1978 Tape 1498 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: this city at their own expense and the minister refused to meet these delegations, or the minister refused to go out and see delegations out there about major road problems. How does the minister rationalize that? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman is inferring that the persons I met with were friends of myself or anybody in the department - MR. CALLAN: I am not inferring anything, I am asking this question. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Phipps, I met with him once here in St. John's.

I did not know of him before that only from correspo~dence. In connectio~ with delegations I think the records will show - and records have been kept - the Department of Transportation last year, in one year I met in the office of T. and C. 217 delegations from across this Province and I take strong exception to people saying I did not meet delegations. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, on that helicopter that Sunday afternoon, there was a gentleman friend of the minister's. I want the minister to tell us, Who was that gentleman friend?

Was he the special assistant, the former P.C. member for that area before the redistribution? 11R. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Tourrsm. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, one of the h~n. gentlemen who accompanied me was my executive assistant. MR. CALLAN: Thank you. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for LaPoile. . i j. t

April 27, 1978 Tape 1498 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: The hon. the Minister of Justice here yesterday misled the House in an answer that he gave and the hon. gentleman promised the House to get some information in connection with an agreement, a fee

schedule that was worked out with Scrivener (Newfoundland) Limited and then Scrivener (Newfoundland) Limited was absorbed by SNC who are now the project managers over at Memorial University. The Minister of Justice told the House that he thought that the bond had been called. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman said 'he thought' and the hon. gentleman undertook to check it out for me,to get me the information. In my research that I did overnight, Sir, I understand that there was no bond, that you do not have bonds - project managers are not bonded, and so there w~s no bond to be called.

And I want to ask the hon. gentleman now if he has the information for the House that he promised to get yesterday in connection with this whole sordid affair? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, regarding that matter, I took it on myself this morning to ask the officials in the Department of Public Works to try to research the matter for me. I had scribbled hastily what appeared to me to be the substance of the question that the Member for LaPoile had asked.

It is a complicated matter and one which I feel would have been better placed on the Order Paper because I do not want to give any incorrect information to the House. However, I will ·pass along wh4t I have been able to get together so far and if this is not sufficient we will get some more information for the hon. member.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1499 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: Scrivener (Canada) Limited were the parent company of Scriviner Projects (Newfoundland) Limited who had the original contract for the project management of the Health Sciences programme. This contract, I understand, was awarded sometime in 1971 by an Order in Council. There was no contract as such. There was a proposal by a gentleman named Harvey South who eventually together with two other partners, a Mr. R. H. Scrivener and a Mr. R. Beatty,formed a company who subsequently took on the management of that huge project.

It was not until sometime later, I think it was sometime in 1973 9 that a contract was eventually entered into. Scrivener (Canada) Limited eventually went into receivership and all the branch companies 1 which included Scriven~r Projects Limited, were accordingly affected. The only asset of the company here in Newfoundland was their contract with the Government of Newfoundland to finish the Health Science complex for a fee that was established. MR. NEARY: To finish the Health Sciences Complex, right! "AN HON. HEMBER: A maximum fee. MR. DOODY: That is right.

The maximum fee, which they called the offset~was written in subsequent to the original agreement. There was no maximum in the original arrangement with Scrivener in 1971. HR. NEARY: Oh, yes there was. MR. DOODY: Well, it was written into a contract later on by a subsequent group of people who dealt with Scrivener. So the Scrivener Projects Limited assets were made available by the receiver, but one of the clauses in the management contract precluded their . I transferring that asset to another company without the permission of the Government of Newfoundland. f

April 27, 1978 Tape 1499 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Why were they not taken . to court? VThy ··was Scrivener not taken to court for not fl1lfilling their contract? HR. DOODY: Because there was no point in it, apparently. tiR. NEARY: Well, why let them get off the hook? }!R. DOODY: Anyway, the receiver asked the Government of Newfoundland's permission or authority or concurrence or agreement to transfer the contract to another company called Cominack~ Newfoundland was not happy with. which the Government of Subsequently they came in with another idea.

They had learned that the company called SNC -Surveyor- some long involved name. It is not important anyway - had bought many of the assets of Scrivener on the Mainland. MR. NEARY: Well, they had nothing but the contract - the minister just told us they had nothing but a contract. HR. DOODY: No, I said they had bought many of the assets of Scrivener (Canada) Limited on the Mainland.

Subsequently they were contacted by the engineers of the department here to see if they were going to become involved or were interested in becoming involved in the Health Sciences Complex since they had taken over most of the personnel in the holding company, Scrivener (Canada) Limited. SNC thereupon came down, looked at the project here and offered to take it over. MR. NEARY: Why was a:ction not taken against Scrivener? MR. DOODY: Relative to a fee

schedule which was inquired about yesterday, I made the same inquiry on behalf of the bon. member and ·r was told that the fee

April 27, 1978 Tape 1499 EC - 3 MR. DOODY:

schedule which S.NC eventually settled with was essentially the same as that of the Scrivener Projects Limited - MR. NEARY: Why was Scrivener not taken to court for violation of contract? . MR. MORGAN: He answered that question • authorization was given for the hiring of on~ additional staff member. MR. NEARY: No, the bon. minister did not answer the question. The hon. gentleman has no axe to grind. MR. DOODY: As I said in the beginning, Your Honou r - MR. NEARY: Go out and look after Oc~an Breeze. iUL MORGAN: Stop interrupting. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOODY: If the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) and the hon. member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) would just restrain themselves for a few minutes,! will try to give the House the benefit of what little 1nf6rJDation I have on this subject. As I said in the beginning it is a relatively new area for me. I asked our people to look at it this .morning. They ·-j; .r. ~ :~ I i ! ~

April 27, 1978 Tape NO. 1500 .n!- 1 }JR. DOODY: provided me with some of the information. I do not pretend that it is all here. I know it is a far more complex and detailed area than I am outiining here at this time, I have undertaken to give the House the information that I have here and I would be only too happy to provide additional information as requested or as required. It is a complex area and it is one of which I do not pretend to have any personal expertise but in which I have every intention of finding out from those people who do. i l ~1R. NEARY: Why were they not taken to court, Scrivener? I HR.

DOODY: Well we will certainly check on that and ask them • You know everyone to his own hobby,appa:i:ently. You know, there are courts and courts. :•JR. NEARY: Like ask my father if I am a liar. }JR. DOODY: He would probably say you were. I do not know. SmiE liON • l.IEl1BERS : Hear! Hear! HR. DOODY: That is just an assumption and a guess and I really . do not know. It is another area in which I do not have any expertise. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the d~y. l1R. DOODY: The question is over. I am sorry 1Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is that I leave the Chair. MR. J, CARTER: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order. }.Jt. J. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, before you leave the; Chair there is a very important pain~ of orJer t:;.at I ;;ould lil~e you to clear up. The ton. gentlemau for LaPoile has been referring to his research - that is the term he uses for the doconents whici 1 he nas on his desk- and hz has already tabled a fair amount of stuff. But he has also referred to recorded telephone calls and all sorts of evidence that if he t·Tere to table it it woulJ be eJttremely damaging. Now I say this, ar.

Speaker, that I do not know and I do not really care what he has there at the moment,but I think the principle ought to be firmly laid down in this House that a person cannot get up and wave all sorts of supposedly incriminating documents and say, "Oh,if I .) r.

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1500 .T.·l - 2 MR. J. CARTER: table these the bon. gentleman would blush." I think that the person,once he mentions that or once he alludes to them and certainly once he waves them physically ought to lay them right on the table of this House. ~IR. NEARY: Be careful you might have to table your - l!R. J. CARTER: :Ir. Speaker, I think that this is a very important rule and ought to be clearly laid down once and for all. And in support of this - ~m.. NEARY: Come over and I will let you read them - }IR. J. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, in support of this particular point of order I have a citation from Beauchesne, number 159, subsection3. ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. F. ROHE: Hr. Speaker, on that point of order. While you are looking up the esoteric legal reference given to ytu by the learned member for St. John 1 s North, Sir, that is not a point of order as Your Honour well knows. The rule has been referred to and laid down time and time again that you must quote from a document. Sir, the remarks of the hon. gentleman from St.

John's North would have been better directed towards the Premier, his leader,and the House Leader on the government side who today consistently,and yesterday,got up, Sir, and made references, veiled references, quasi.- intimidating, threats and so on; 1we are going to have an investigation and the hen. member will not like what comes out of that' and this kind of thing, Mr. Speaker. The bon. member's remorks should be directed to his own House Leader and the Premier of the Province.

As far as the authority is concerned, Sir, I believe it is clearly laid down by precedents of this House as well as the rules that you must quote from a document in order for that document to be tabled. :H. J. CARTER: Further to that poL'l.t of order.: You are still not finished:' }!R. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. HR. F. ROWE: Sir, what I had in my mind now is intimidated right out of my mind, Sir. I have to sit down. When I saw that hen. gentleman's ~ I ' I. ,. I· ,. r ! ! ' '

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1500 JM - 3 MR. F. ROWE: physical presence in all its grandiose entirety, Sir, I decided I better sit down. HR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, further to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. John's North. HR. J. CARTER: As usual the Leader of the Opposition is wallowing in error.

The point that I was making was that these were physical, actual documents that the han. gentleman not only referred to but physically raised above his head and waved in the air and threatened that they ',o7ere incriminating and contained all kinds of serious allegations and if he were to table them it would be all the worst for the han. member concerned. MR. SPEAKER: I jo not think it is a matter which requires an immediate decision - obviously it requires a decision - and ~ will give one certainly later today. The motion is that I leave the Chair. XR. SllfrlONS: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to raise a point of order. I do not think it is a matter you can deal with right yet,but yesterday durin;;,I believe,t.1J.e Question Period,the :·1inister of Justice in answer to a question from me quoted from a document, a letter he }~d from his departnent. I was not sure he had actually quoted until I caecked the transcript and there is no doubt that he did quote from the document. As I say,it is probably not a matter Hr. Speaker can dispose of right now but I would ask him to hear my point and then rule on it at an appropriate time later.

I submit that having quoted from that document, :·lr. Speaker, yesterday in anS\ver to a question from me and in accordanc~ with precedents already established in this House that the minister ought to have tabled the document yesterday. I was somewhat in error L< not having caught it yesterday out I wanted to make doubly sure that he had been quotu1g and not just referring

April 27, 1978 Tape 1501 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: in general terms to the document. A check with the transcript will indicate that he did indeed quote from the document. He should have tabled it at that time and I would submit that Mr. Speaker ought to ask him,having checked the Hansard to determine that what I have said is the case, he would then ask the Minister of Justice to table the document as he is required to according to the rules and precedents· of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: To that point of order.

If I did indeed quote from a document, it would obviously-! presume and assume that the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) is referring to a line of questioning with respect to an investigation that is ongoing in my department. Then obviously any communication from my department to me falls clearly and absolutely within the definition of Crown documents. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 1Espoir. MR..

SIMMONS : - again,there is no question about that and the rule was established earlier, the precedent, that if the Crown document, not that if it is a Crown document, but if that document is not in the public interes1.~ that is the operative point,I believ~ ~and the real point I want to make in raising this, I do not particularly want to see the letter personally because I know the letter he is talking about and I have seen the letter. That is not my point. The letter that I think the minister was reading from is a letter that I have a copy of and therefore I know what is in the particular letter.

But my point, Mr. Speaker, is that it seems to me that members on the government side - and here is my reason for raising this point of order - are now beginning to take advantage of this question of state documents. We are in the situation where because we are not in government and by and large we do not have state documents, we nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, have documents which if tabled may not be in the public interest,as we demonstrated the other night. t ,. I t

April 27, 1978 Tape 1501 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: People in government,on the other hand .. ~an get up and have what is technically a state document and then hide behind the guise that it might not be in the public interest or that it is a Crown document or a state document. That is the essential point I raised, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps at the appropriate time Mr. Speaker could rule on it. MR.

SPEAKER: I have heard these matters and since although quite distinct from it, it is obviously related to the former point in that they both deal with the citation of documents, entailing of documents,! will give both decisions at the same time. The motion is that I leave the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Heading 1005-01. The hon. Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Before we adjourned on Tuesday night~ I was in the middle of a response to two questions, one asked by the hon. member for Baie Verte - ~ite Bay, and one from the han. member for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac).

With regard to the question posed by the member for Baie Verte-T•Jhite Bay, which dealt with the pattern of practice, a term I like to use, concerning a doctor who is now in place in La- Scie and the relationship with the Baie Verte hospital, I can only tell him publicly, this is a public forum, that my deputy minister was into Baie Verte and La::;r.:i.f' late last week. We have received some complaints and I would suggest possibly to the han. member that he might want to come down and discuss that with the deputy minister or with myself for that matter.

I would prefer to say very little else at this particular time other than to make sure that the hen •. member is kept advised as to what might or might not happen there. With regard to the ouestion raised by the hon. member for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac) with respect to a doctor et Jeffrey's, we have been having some problems in terms of finding a replacement for a doctor at Jeffrey's who resigned, I think, -' r i r -- ~ .

April 27, 1978 Tape 1501 IB-3 MR. COLLINS : last Fall. That particular practice, Mr. Chairman, comes within the ambit and the jurisdictional responsibilit y of the Hospital Board at Stephenville. Of course that does not mean that the department does ~ I . !!'

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1502 RT-1 MR. H. COLLINS: not have an interest too, but it is the responsibility of the Board to recruit ~ replacement and we certainly give them all the help we can. There is a doctor now in place in Jeffreys but, as the hon. member said, there is a possibility that that doctor might be leaving again in June in which case, ~f course, we will have to find a replacement.

The Board at Stephenville are aware of that and so are the people in the department and certainly we will give them all the assistance we can in order to . find a replacement if, in fact, that doctor does leave,and it looks like the doctor might be leaving in June. I do not know how many other members, Mr. Chairman, might want to make a contribution in the debate so after answering those two questions I will resume my seat and make notes as other hen. members speak. NR. CHAIRUA.J.'I: The hen. member for St. George's. MRS.

MCISAAC: There is something I would like to ask the minister, if he would go a little bit further and give me the information on whether or not drugs will be dispensed in the area or if people still have to travel that fifty-odd miles with a prescription. MR. H. COLLINS: I will certainly look into that. On motion 1005-01 through 1005-02-02, carried. MR. NEARY: On (03), is there a new doctor's residence this year, could the minister tell us? ~JR. H. COLLINS: I am sorry. ~JR. NEARY: Is a new doctor's residence going to be built this year? :!-JR.. CHAIRHAN : Ron. minister. }JR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, not to my kn?wledge. Generally speaking, for the salaried doctors in medical practice around different areas of the Province it is the practice that the housing requirements are taken care of by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation generally through a rental process because very often we find that doctors ·~ going into those areas are not inclined to stay there for the rest of

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1502 RT-2 MR. H. COLLINS: their lives, but I certainly do not know of any new residences that are being built but I can make a note of it and find out·. On motion, 1005-02-03 through 1006-03, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ron. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: I just slipped out for a moment - we are on 1006? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1006-03-1. MR. LUSH: Well it is okay. I wanted to speak to the ambulance air service, Mr. Chairman. There is no - MR. CHAIRMAN: That is - MR. LUSH: Is that okay?

Could I have the Chairman's approval to speak to that, or does that come under 051 Is that the air ambulance under 05? If it is, then I can go o~ to that. i MR. CHAIRMAN": I think that would be under 05. i I MR. LUSH: Okay. All right. r MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister r of Health to tell us now how the department purchase their drugs.

Do they call public tenders or do they have a list of companies in their office, in the office of the Department of Supply & Services and in the various hospitals and they just invite tenders or do they advertise in the newspaper, and are tenders called for all kinds of drugs? Could the i. Minister give us a little information on this Heading? ' ' MR. CHAIRMAi.'i: Ron. minister. MR. H. COLLL'lS: Mr. Chairman, I do not have that detailed information here but my officials are outside and I will certainly get it from them. MR. NEARY: Well get them in the House, get the officials into Committee. MR. H.

COLLINS: I will decide whether the officials come into Committee or if they do not come into Committee,Mr. Chairman, and my

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1502 RT-3 HR. B. COLLINS: officials are outside and I will get the information for the bon. member. We ~ill keep away no information which the- bon. member needs and which we can supply to him. What I was abou t to say is that a number of hospi tals around the Province do their own purchasing as they are permitted to do under the Hospitals Act and the various acts under which they ope r ate. There is a central supply division within the department which is located at Pleasantville, and I will certainly get that information for the bon . member in a few minutes . NR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman - MR. CHAIRM&~: Ron. member for LaPoile. $.. NEARY: - I am not satisfied with the hon. gentleman's answers. The bon. gentl eman is obviously proving once again that he i s incompetent. If the bon . gentleman does not have the information

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1503 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: to provide the Committee then the hon. gentleman can call his officials in on the-floor of the House and get the information. The hon. gentleman is asking us to pass this subhead without answering the questions that I put to the hon. gentleman. How many hospitals are ordering their own drugs? Give us a list of the hospitals. Are public tenders invited? What procedures are used? Can the minister get some information for the Committee or bring the officials in on the floor of the House. The hon. ~entleman took off, Sir, like a scaled cat. ~IR. CHAIRMAN: 1003-03-Ql MR.

NEARY: No ,it is not going to pass, Mr. Chairman, I want to get some information from the hon. gentleman, Sir, and I will stay on my feet until I get it. I want to know, Sir, I want to know What procedures are used in the purchase of dru~s for the various hospitals, medical clinics scattered throughout this Province and I ask the hon. gentleman, and I am still waiting for an answer, Sir, and I do not think - I will tell you what I will do, Mr.

Chairman, I will move that the subhead be deferred until such time as the hon. gentleman can bring his officials in on the floor of the House and give the Committee the information that I am asking for. I move that we defer that particular item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ MR. HI GIOIA.~: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman has poillted out, which is quite the practice in this House, that any hon. minister, if he needs a bit of information or technical advice from his officials, 'lill eo out and get it. But that is certainly not grounds for deferring tne item. ~!R. CHAIRMAN : Order, please!

For the information of hon. members the only motions that can be entertained are motions to amend, to ?ass or reduce. There cannot be entertained a motion to defer once discussion on a subhead has been entered upon, and we have clearly entered upon discussion of 1006-03-01. The hon. member for LaPoile.

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1503 NH - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, does the hon. minister have the question? In connection ~ith drugs, Sir, sold by the government- !·IR. E.. COLLINS: To save tDne and to relieve the House of this misery, let him take his seat and I will answer the question. MR. NEARY: Well,I have been the last five minutes trying to get it, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLL'IS: The hospitals across the Province, Mr. Chairman, which are operated by hospital boards are represented as a group by the Ne~;foundland Hospital Association.

Those people have a listing of all the people across Canada who supply drugs and their purchasing is done on a bulk basis after inviting proposals from the people who supply drugs. In terms of hospitals which are operated by the provinc1al government, the Department of Public Works and Services, through their purchasing agent, purchasing agency, also have a listing of all those people and proposals are asked for and the'best possible prices are obtained. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. . MR. 'NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with drugs, Sir, that are sold by the government to out-patients in hospitals and I drugs supplied to cottage hospitals through the Central Pharmacy t and drugs sold generally by the government, through the Central Pharmacy or otherwise, on what basis, Mr. Chairman, does the government set its selling prices?

And what is the general differential between the selling prices set by the government for selling these drugs in medical clinics and out-patients and so forth, what is the general differential between the selling prices set by the government and retail prices in drug stores in Newfoundland? ~. CHAIRHAN: The hon. Minister of Health. cf 1] 7

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1503 , I - 3 MR. H. COLLINS: I am reasonably sur-e, Mr. Chairman, that the !llllrk-up which Central Supply has is in the order of twenty per cent. I will get that confirmed in a moment, ttrentr per cent whi.ch is confi:r:med by the Deputy Millister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for LaPoil.e. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, in connection with this subhead, Sir, would the minister indicate to the House if the govemment will consider a proposal put forward by the senior citize~ clubs, by the Newf.oundland Association for the Aging, and for all the clubs that have membership of seniOr citizens in this Province, and the siXty club and over, would the minister indicate if the government intends to accede to the wishes, the requests of the sellior c;:itiZens in thi.s Province who are now·, a good many of them, sUffering because they cannot afford prescription drugs and medication that they needl Does the government intend to introduce a programme to help these people get their badly needed drugs, especiall.y those, Mr.

Chairman, who have to pay ciut huge sums of money every month for prescription drugs and far medication? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Mi.nist .er of Health. . i: . I '

April 27, 1978 Tape 1504 DW - 1 HR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I responded to that question maybe in the name of another han. member on Tuesday evening. The hen. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) knows a delegation from the senior citizens met with my colleague,the ¥~nister of Social Services,I believe it was last week and presented government with a brief dealing with,as they see it, the need for government to at least subsidize the cost of drugs to the senior citizens of the Province.

We have a lot of sympathy for the predictment which those people find themselves in and that their inco~es are just about stationary,fixed. And of course we all know the cost of drugs is increasing and we also know that a lot of senior citizens by virtue of the their age and possibly some ailments are required to take a considerable number of drugs from time to time. I would indicate to the eommittee, ~r. Chairman, that across Canada various provinces have different arrangements i~terms of the manner in which subsidies are provided. Nowhere across Canada is that done by a Department of Health.

It is a social services matter and my colleague has received a brief and I am sure that he will be making the necessary recommendations to government. MR.. NEARY: The answer then is no. MR. H. COLLINS: I did not say that. On motion, 10~-03-01, carried On motion, 106-03-02, carried ~1R. CH.i\IPJ1AN: Shall 106-03-03 carry? The hen. member.for Baie Verte- White Bay. !1R. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I wonder would the minister care to take a minute or two and explain to us what this rural physiotherapy program is. What does it encompass? l'hat parts of the Province is it operating? What is it all about? .. ~; . ' ~

April 27, 1978 Tape 1504 DW- 2 UR. RIDEOUT: That is 1006-03-03. MR. H-. COLLINS: Rural physiotherapy. There is a small amount there, Mr. Chairman, which is $5,300 and it is provided for the part-time employment of physiotherapist and for the purchasing of equipment and supplies. The physiotherapist are paid on an hourly basis. There are presently two employed under this program. They are located at l•oody Point and Trepassey. MR. CHAII~HAN: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. S • NEA.ttY: Hr. Chairman, in connection ~1ith ~hys1otherapists, ¥r.

Chairman, my understanding is that the minister's department or some of the hospitals that came directly under the ~unister of Health that are not under a board have had to go on recruiting trips. Has the hon. minister disappeared? The hon. gentleman has evaporated into thin air! MK. lUCKMAN : He was listening to you. MP-. S • NEARY: No,I am not talking to an empty seat, :t-:r. Chairman. That is t!te height of ignorance,contempt for this ilouse,arrogance on the part of the minister, Sir, and I am not going to talk to a vacant seat.

If the han. gentleman cannot answer the questions,if tP.e hon. gentleman is so incompetent that he cannot answer the questions,then I suggest that the han. gentleman bring his officials in on the floor of the House. AN HON • }1EMBER: Send the Premier in. l1R. S. NEARY: Or send the Premier in to answer the questions. The Premier is supposed to know what goes on in all departments of government. MR. J. CARTER: Sit down and give someone else a chance. MR • S • NEARY : Does the han. gentleman want the floor? MR. J. CARTER: No. MR.··s. NEARY: I want the minister, Sir. I; r i ! I t

April 27, 1978 Tape 1504 DW - 3 MR. J. CARTER: There are other han. members wanting the floor. MR. S.. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, do we have to do like they do at hockey games. We want the minister! We want the minister! We want the minister! We want the minister! HR. DOODY: Wherever you feel more comfortable. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! AN RON • MEMBER: (Inaudible) zoo. HR. NEARY: Well, if I were at a zoo looking at the hon. gentleman I would feel very comfortable, to see these little animals that swing from their tails. MR. J. CARTER: You are supposed to address your remarks to the Chair. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, what I want to know about this matter, Sir. A."l" RON. MEMBER: You are wasting time. MR. S. NEARY; ~~. Chairman, is it doing Your Honor a discourtesy 7• is it being discourteous to the HousE!j is it contempt for the House, Sir, to have the han. gentleman,while we are putting his Estimates through the House the han. gentleman does not have the interest to sit down, Sir? AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. S.NE.ARY: C'..one outside in the corridors for a draw or out in the backroom somewhere for whatever else goes on over there. M1l •• T. C:ARTFR • l.Jhat is it you are suggesting? MR. S.

NEARY: I am not suggesting anything, Sir, but I am going to ask the Minister of Health before .we are finish wi~h his Estimates to bring in the breathalyzer into this han. House. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I do have to call it to han. members' attention that in Committee remarks do have to be directed fairly directly -: ! ' ,.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1504 ~. CRAI~l"'-'1: and clearly to the subhead under discussions or it does place the Chair in a position of having to inte rrupt and make a ruling if the Chair feels that this is not being done. Now I know this does present difficulties at times out 1 jus t do bring it to llon. members' attention. HR. S. NEARY: Well, }!r. Chairman, it would be a very interesting process to bring a b reat~aly z er ow - 4 into this House especially when the Rouse meets at eight o'clock in the evenings and I would like I t I! ~ ~

April 27, 1978 Tape 1505 MR. NEARY: to see the breathalizer brought in on the floor of the House and also on the tenth floor of Confederation Building,and maybe one or two physiotherapists too, Sir. I know this is rural physiotherapy we are talking about here, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to know if there is a shortage of physiotherapists in this Province. I would like to ·know how many times the recruiting team have gone over to Ireland and England and Scotland in the last year or _I so to recruit physiotherapists.

And I would like to also know from ~ I ' the minister why we do not have trained physiotherapists in this Province, why we cannot put Newfoundlanders in these jobs, why it was necessary recently,for instance,for an Irishman from the Waterford Hospital to go back to his native Ireland, to recruit some of his buddies who were physiotherapists to bring them over to Newfoundland. Why is this necessary, Sjr, when we have record unemployment in this Province?

Why cannot we send our own people off,men and women, Newfoundlanders to be trained as physiotherapists as well as send people off to be trained as health inspectors? Why? Perhaps the bon, member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) can set a poor old ignoramus like myself straight. Why is it necessary to go to the hon. gentleman's native soil to recruit - although I consider the hon. gentleman as a Newfoundlander, by the way. That is not meant as an insult to the bon. gentleman, Why is it necessary when we need physiotherapists to either go in the rural parts of Newfoundland or to work in our hospitals here in St.

John's and if we need health inspectors or if we need technicians of any kind, why is it necessary to always have to go overseas or to send a recruiting team across Canada? We have record unemployment in this Province. We are spending one-third of our budget on education. We have this fantastic university, we. have the College of Trades and Technology 1 we have eighteen vocational schools and every time we need a physiotherapist or an X ray technician- no ,maybe not so much an X ray technician no~- health inspectors, we have to send off a recruiting team at public expense to recruit foreigners, to recruit CFAs.

Now, Mr. i·

April 27, 1978 Tape 1505 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Chairman, why is this necessary? Why does the minister not plan far eno~gh ahead? Why do not the officials of the minister's department have sufficient foresight to be able to tell what the need will be for physiotherapists and health inspectors? Why is it necessary to send these recruiting teams off at great expense to the t~payers,living in posh hotels and eating at the finest bistros in Europe, Maxim's and so on? Why is this necessary?

If we have to, if we cannot train them here in Newfoundland, why do we not send them out of Newfoundland to be trained in the various training centers and under the programmes in other provinces and in other countries rather than import .Come From Aways to fill these jobs when we have record unemployment in this Province. Now that the minister, Sir, has returned to his seat, perhaps the ~on. gentleman could give the Committee that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The bon. member for Exploits. DR. TWOMEY: The hon. member f~r LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) was kind enough to ask me a few questions and to wonder if I could shed some light on these questions. I know quite well that there are not full provision ·for training of physiotherapists in Newfoundland. Tne main centers are Toronto, Montreal, Halif~ and Western and out to B.C. I know very well that there are many who have asked me if I could intercede in their behalf to get them a place in university and as with all universities the admission requirements are extremely strict and they are again province orientated.

It is much easier to get into a university in your own province than to move from one province to the other. And I think p~rticularly in Quebec and in the Province of Ontario these governments are very definitely giving strict priority to students who apply from these provinces. That is number one. Number two, why cannot we not get them out into the rural areas? I wish that I had that panacea for that because they are a requirement, a requirement not alone to help the patients

April 27, 1978 Tape 1505 IB- 3 DR. TI"OMEY: but also to help us who want to advance our lqlowledge in physiotherapy, to help the nurses in the hosp:itals to advance their knowledge . And even the few occ.asions that r.1e have had the opportunity of having a physi otherapist, the doctors , the nurses and the patients have learned much . Again there is the problem of isolation, -· ... . I l I ! l r !T I. i,.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1506 EC - 1 DR. TWOMEY: working alone. They prefer to work in a group where they can exchange information just the ·same as they do in larger clinics or in hospitals. These are some of the problems that we face. It is extremely difficult no matter where they come from to keep them in the more isolated areas of Newfoundland. I believe all the ports, both in the larger centres- St. John's, Gander, Grand Falls and Corner Brook-have not that much of a problem in getting physiotherapists. HR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the House Leader. MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, if I may.

I did serve on one occasion for one year as Minister of Health and the difficulty in getting physiotherapists for this Province is indeed a very acute one. It is, as I recall it, a very difficult course, one that requires a high degree of scholarship. I do not think there has been any change in the entrance requirements in Canadian universities for physiotherapists.

I know one lady who had completed her first year at Memorial University three or four years ago .; and she and three others from Memorial made application to i one university,and all three were either straight A students . or close to it~and only one was accepted to,I think it was Queens, and it is then a four year course after.

Now it is my understanding,and the hon. the Minister of Health can correct me on this, that if a Newfoundlander is accepted in any Canadian university in the discipline of physiotherapy that such person can then,if he or she decides that they need the money, make application to the Department of Health and a contractual relationship is entered into under which the Government of Newfoundland pays a certain amount of money per year to the physiotherapist and that when he or she graduates from university they must return to the

April 27, 1978 Tape 1506 EC - 2 MR. HICKMAN: Province and work in a post assigned by the Department of Health,or at least work within that discipline within the Province,for whatever number of years are specified in the agreement. If they do not serve the number of years that are specified, then there are certain penalty clauses and rights of recovery from the person to whom the money was loaned. It is, Mr. Chairman, I believe, the same good policy that was followed by the Government of Newfoundland prior to the opening of the Health Sciences centre and the establishment of a school of nursing at Memorial. MRS.

MciSAAC: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: Pardon? MRS. MciSAAC: That plan (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: Well, if the policy has been done away with - I know it was not done away with up to two years ago, because the young l~dy that I am familiar with told me that she was under this kind of contractual relationship and when she graduates, which I believe is this year, will be returning to somewhere in Newfoundland.

I would assume that the only way it would be discontinued is if our own School of Medicine finds that they have the money to hire the additional staff, and it would require, I suspect, a fair number of additional, highly trained, expensive, competent staff to introduce that course at the School of Medicine. But certainly, no matter how you cut the cake, physiotheraphy is one of the very difficul~ disciplines to which one can gain admission. Secondly, it is a long, long course. It cannot be compared with sending someone away for a year's training as a health inspector.

It is a highly professional,five year course. ·-! ' ~ t I t I f ~ f

AprU 27, 1978 Tape 1506 EC - 3 MR. RICKMAN: I think there are an increasing number of Newfoundlanders going into that vocation now and going to university, - at least I seem to meet more of them all the time. And I cannot concur with the comment by the hon. the me.mber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) about recruiting people abroad. May I remind this Committee that when this - MR. fi.TGRT· Why are you up? MR. HICKMAN: Well, a few minutes ago bon. gentlemen were complaining because there was not enough di!'cussion. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: We want to talk to the minister. Is he allowed to speak? HR.

HICKMAN: There was a gr~at cry went out a few minutes ago, Mr. Chairman, that they wanted participation in this subject of rural physiotherapy. AN RON. MEMBER.: Right. HR. HICKMAN: And I happen to represent a rural district and I happen to know something about the work that is being done by physiotherapists in this Province. And I am complying with the request that came from across the floor in my own modest, short, concise way. And I am being harassed by ., i I I c I i ..

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1507 NM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight), and I do not like being harrassed and if he would only remain quiet for one second I could very precisely and concisely finish my few modest comments, And that is, Mr. Chairman, I want to remind this House, because we should never forget it, that we have a very strong debt ~f gratitude to the physiotherapists who came from the other side in the 1950s when this Province was stricken with polio. They were the ones who responded to tne call, did tremendous work under the leadership of Dr.

Shapter and I for one would not concur in any comments or suggestions that it would be wrong to recruit any of these great people. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before that item_passes,and I thank my colleagues for their contribution, under our bursary programme there are four Newfoundland students now undertaking training at different universities outside Newfoundland in physiotherapy. We are hopeful that more and more people will become involved in that particular field, especially today in Newfoundland when we are trying to enlarge and increase the"various specialities and services and so on.

We have an agreement with all of the hospitals. If any hospital in the Province is desirous of engaging, employing a physiotherapist and they can select a person who is qualified to take the training, we will give them a guarantee of a salary when that person is trained and we also provide, as I said, a bursary to the student in order to be able to undertake the training. I might also add, Mr.

Chairman, that negotiations are now underway with the Memorial University Medical School in terms of putting in place a physiotherapy training programme in our own medical school and university and please goodness that will take place pretty soon. The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) also alluded to what he says is a fact that numerous trips are made outside the Provice to recruit different types of medical people. There has been no one in my department since I have been there who has made anv

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1507 NM - 2 MR. H. COLLINS: trips overseas to recruit anyone. I do recall that not too long ago a doctor from the Waterford made a trip to Ireland- in search of one or two psychiatrists and while he was over there he also made it known that there was a need for physiotherapists in the Province :md were he able to find one he might have tried to encourage him or her to come to Newfoundland. But that is what he is alluding to, nothing unnatural about it, nothiqg different from what was always done in this Province. And as my colleague from Exploits (Dr.

IWomey) has mentioned, we have been fortunate in Newfoundland in being able to attract some good doctors, good nurses and others from I overseas and particularly from Ireland. And we should all be thankful for them and not criticizing them as the hon. member has done. On motion 1006-03-03, carried, MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Baie Verte - lfuite Bay; 1006-03-04 MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Chairman, I want first of all for the minister to tell me how we are spending this $80,000 -National Health Grants, where they are going and for what purposes they are going? I may have a few words to say after I find that out. MR.

H. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the $80,000 which we received from the federal government as a National Health grant is provided for assistance to persons training in the various public health disciplines and the public health employees to further their educational qualifications. Health inspectors, dental hygienists, speech therapists, are trained from these funds, also post graduate training is provided for nurses in public health, for university graduates in the health services administration. NR. CHAIRNAN: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Chairman, if I understand the minister correctly, this is a grant directly from the federal government to the provincial government, Cf 2So ; s I

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1507 NM - 3 MR.. RIDEOUT: for the purpose which is outlined. So it is not provincial dollars for any specific purpose then. MR. H. COLLINS! A federal grant. }JI.. RIDEOUT : Okay. l006-Q3-0S MR.. CHAI1U1AN : I1R. LUSH: On motion l006-Q3-04, carried. The han. member for Terra Nova. Thank you. I want to direct a question or so to the minister respecting the air ambulance services, Specifically I would like to know the air ambulance service, to whom are they available to and on what kind of a basis or what kind of a regular basis?

And I refer specifically to cases where patients have to be transferred from one hospital, let us say from a regional hospital or a cottage hospital whatever, a hospital not equipped to deal with the_ particular illness that a person may have and the person may have to be transferred to a hospital here in St. John's where they can deal with that kind of illness, - where they have the necessary equipment to take care of the patient concerned.

My understanding is that the air ambulance service right now available with respect to transferring patients is conducted,let us say at the very least,on a very ad hoc basis, a very erratic basis that is not available to all. It is only available when the government air craft is available and I wonder if the minister can verify that. But that is my understanding,that it is not available to everybody and this seems to be very discriminatory, not discriminatory in the sense that some individuals are taken and some are not, not discriminatory in that sense, but discriminatory

April 27, 1978 Tape No. 1508 .D! - 1 ;-IR. LUSH: with respect to its availability. A person having to be transferred from one hospital to another because there is nat sufficient equipment in that particular place to handle,that seems very unfair that a person -would have to be transferred,number one,but that is a fact of life because all of the hospitals in the Province cannot be equipped as well as those in St. John's.

But is seems unfair to the extent that at one point a person in this community can get transferred for nothing and then the next day another person has to be transferred and has to pay the total cost because the government air ambulance service, the government aircraft,is not available. I have know of cases, ~. Chairman, where a particular person being transferred nat only having to pay the air fare from Gander to S't, John's or wherever but the patient concerned has been required to pay for the wages of an attendent to go along. It might have been a nurse and they have had to pay the nurse's salary for that day.

They had to pay for any equipment that was necessary .• Like for example,! can recall one case where a person had to be brought in in a wheel chair because they could not walk properly and that person had to pay for that wheel chair, l~d to pay for a taxi from the airport in St. John's to the hospital and the taxi back again. So they bad to pay for the nurse who accompanied them, having to pay for f I' all of these additional expenses in addition to the air fare itself the wheel chair and then a taxi to and from the airport concerned.

I That seems to be grossly unfair when today they say tl~t one person I ' I I i i can get it and then tomorrow the person living next door or in some other part of the community cannot get that same kind of a service I and we are punishing people really for being sick if you will and not being able to get the services near their homes and having to be transferred. -· Now I would expect tiJ.at the minister's ans••er would be that since we cannot provide it an a-or make it available to everybody then we are doing the best under the circumstances. But, Mr.

Chairman, , .~ that certainly is discriminatory and unfair and unjust to the people

April 27, 1978 Tape :~o. 1508 JM - 2 l1R. LUSH: who cannot get these services. It seems to be a matter of luck, the luck of the draw:if you happen to be sick the day that the aircraft is there then you can 3et it. Now that is oy understanding of it and the- minister can clarify that situation. It has been su~gested that if that is the case, if the government aircraft cannot be available why cannot the government make some arrangements with the other air services, for example EPA,and have the cost paid. But it does seem unfair where in one instance a person has the whole shot paid for

whereas another person is burdened with the total bill of the air transportation,of the air fare 1 plus the cost of the nurse or the escort that might go along with the sick patient,plus any equipment that is necessary. Again if an ambulance has to be ordered for the person from the aircraft 1they have to pay for that. So maybe the minister can elaborate on that point maybe as to the substance of what I am saying, the accuracy of it and so on. :.IR. CHAIHHA..'l: l1R.. H. COLLINS: The han. Hinister of Health. Mr.

Chairman; one of ti1e first things should be uncierstood here is that the air ambulance to which the han. member refers ami to which we refer in our estimates is an emergency air ambulance. Now the han. member or any hon. member might question, Well, what does one mean by emergency?

Generally we will find that people who use the emerbency air ambulance service are people transferred from one hospital to another 1or certainly from one medical practice to ~•other,and what is not an emergency is determiued by the doctor at the hospital where the patient is residing and the hospital to which the patient is being transferred. In consultation between the two doctors it is detercined if in fact this case is ~n emergency for the purposes of an emergency acbulance service.

April 27, 1978 Tape 1509 IB-1 MR. H. COLLINS: I hope I have made myself clear on that. There are a number of people in Newfoundland who are transferred sometimes from the James Paton Ho~pital in Gander to the General or the Jar.eway,from the Central Newfoundland Hospital in Grand Falls to the General,or from a point in Labrador to the General or the Janeway,or from the Janeway to the Sick Children's Hospital in Toronto. And unless it is of an emergency nature, of course, the people are responsible for their own transportation costs and a