VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELH1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, MARCH 23, 1984 NO. 9

March 23, 1984 The House met at 10:00 a.m. Hr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape No. 305 Order, please! MR. DINN: STATEMENTS BY HINISTERS Mr. Speaker. MJ - 1 HR. SPEAKER: atid Manpower The han. the Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Hr. Speaker, I would like to inform the han. House of Assembly today that 1 notwithstanding the recent Supreme Court decision with respect to offshore jurisdiction,my department will continue in its efforts to maximize employment opportunities for Newfoundlanders.

We will continue our employment monitoring programme,which has proven extremely effective, to ensure that Newfoundlanders are given preference for employment. I am pleased to say, in fact, that we will be broadening our service to both employers and prospective employees. To assist employers in finding suitable Newfoundlanders for employrnent,my department will be providing companies on a monthly basis with a list of employees who have registered or updated their files during that particular month. ~~is list will p rovide important details as to an individual's quali.fications and work experience.

Each montly list will,of course,only include those people who have contacted the department either bv telephone, in writing or in person at either ?ur St. John's office or at one of our regional offices. This initiative will ensure that companies receive up -to-date information on a monthly basis on Newfoundlanders seeking work. Individuals, therefore,who are seeking employment in the petroleum industry should provide my department with copies of relevant certificates detailing their qualifications or updating information previously 831

March 22, 1984 Tape No. 305 MJ - 2 MR. DINN: supplied. Additional information can be obtained by ccntacting our Employment Services Pivision at 737-2719. MR. NEA.'ti.Y: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY : Thank you, Mr. Spea ker . Mr . Speaker. The hen. the Lea der of the · ~r. Speaker, while it is desirable to give preference to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians offshore 11 am afraid without a.n acrree rnent that that will be almost as difficult to enforce as were the orders given by the bon. gentleman opposite to bring in ~~e drill rigs. ! tell you what seems to be developing here , Jv!.r. Speaker. The kind of situation that is developing in New~~undland and Labrador 832

March 23, 1984 Tape 306 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: today reminds me just prior to the Second World war when Neville Chamberlain came back from Germany and waved around a piece of paper and said there is going to be no war, Mr. Speaker. He went over and negotiated peace with the Germans; there will be no Second World war he told us. And was quoted all around the world, you know, he came back a hero and a few months later everybody knows what happened in the world. Well,we have a similar situation here in this Province today, Mr. Speaker.

My advice to the administration there opposite is to sit down and negotiate an agreement, carry out the mandate that they were given to do and stop, stop pretending. AN HON. MEMBER: Give it away._ MR. NEARY: Because all they are doingr Hr, Speaker, is pretending. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is entitled to comment on the minister's statement but what he is doing he is entering into the area of debate and this is not the appropriate time. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Certainly the hon. Leader of the Of'!?Osi:tion (~ ., Nea;cyl. has been recognized as replying to Ministerial c;t,. _t<Srent by the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). And by my calculations the hon. Leader of the Opposition had approximately one minute to speak. I certainly do not see much relation between Mr. Chamberlain and the Ministerial Statement made by the hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 833

March 23, 1984 Tape 306 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well,perhaps if Your Honour was following what I said, I said the atmosphere in Newfoundland today, the attitude of the administration there opposite ,is the same as when Neville Chamberlain came back from Germany before the Second World War ·and said there will be no war. Now , Mr. Speaker, all they are doing over there, this is all window dressing, it is all pretending, Mr. Speaker, the great pretenders. The fact of the matter is that the only way we are going to get anywhere with the offshore is to sit down to the bargaining table and negotiate an agreement. And, Mr.

Speaker, the sooner that is done the better for all concerned. MR . SPEAKER (Ru ssell) : Resources and Lands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: The han . Minister of Forest, Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the han. House that we have awarded a contract for this year's spruce budworm spray programme to Kanata Aviation Limited of Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. Kanata was the lowest of three bidders and this will be the company's third consecutive year working on our spray programme·.

Under the contract, the company will provide six Ag-Cat single engine planes at a cost of $23,750 for each aircraft. These planes are especially designed and built for agriatit~ and forest spraying. Cost of the spray programme i~self under the contract will be $3.70 per hectare for two applications of the chemical insecticide Matacil. 834

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 307 SD - 1 MR. POWER: The total area to be sprayed is 35,700 hectares 1 most of it in Western and Central Newfoundland. This also includes 4,000 hectares being treated to provide information on the cumulative effects of spraying on selected segments of the environment. The entire programme,including aircraft 1 chemical and other costs is not expected to exceed $900,000. The government will pay only one-third of this, the rest being paid by Bowater and Abitibi-Price under a cost-sharing agreement negotiated by the government with the industry.

The spray area is divided into twenty-three blocks ranging in size from 350 hectares to 6, 400 hectares. Spraying will be carried out ·from three bases. T.he major base will be the Deer Lake Airport from which 24,730 1 or 67 per cent of the total 1will be covered. The 4,000 hectares of environmental monitoring blocks will be sprayed from the Gander airport. The remaining 6,970 hectares · will be sprayed from an Abitibi-Price woods road. Mixing of the chemical will be carried out at Stephenville where we have proper faciliti~s for doing this · job.

Spraying is expected to begin around June 10 but the exact date will depend on the development of the insect and weather conditions. Each black will get its two applications · of Matacil five days apart, so the program will probabl y be complete during the first week of July. My department, Mr. SDeaker, will give the public and the media at least one day's advance notice of each. !Jlock to be sprayed. MR .. SPEAKER (RUssell): MR. NEARY: Thank you .. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, in the last oaragraph of the hen. minister's statement,he said that one day's notice would be given to the general public when spraying 835

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 307 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: will be carried out. In actual fact, what the mins-iter has done today is · to give notice, several weeks or several months notice, I would think, because spraying probably will not take place until sometime in June or Jul y, weather permitting. So the general public in and around the spray areas now, Mr. Speaker, have ample opportunity to ha ve input into s-afety measures, into whether or not the adminis-tration there Qpposite will be spraying near communities, if they will be spraying near water supplies in these communi ties-, Mr.

Speaker • So th .e people now have ample warning,. 'a.nd if they wish to protest or make suggestions I think they can do so. That is- the only good I see in the minis-ter making an early Ministerial Statement on the spray programme, Mr. Speaker. So I am hoping that the minister will listen to what people have to s-a y in Central and Western Newfoundland in connection with . the spray programme.

I believe that he s-hould pinpoint the area, that he should give the areas · that are going to be sprayed wide publicity so that the pe.ople in and around th.es ·e communi ties , in around these areas can make representation to the minis-ter if they so desi:re. 836

March 23, 1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 308 EC - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister responsible for Energy (J<r. ~·arshall) and I would like to start out by asking him who is right and who is wrong. The day before yesterday down at the Board of Trade, the Premier, in one of his off-the-cuff statements - carried away - made a statement that has been contradicted by the t1inj ster responsible for Energy; MR. MORGAN: speech. MR.

NEARY: H.e gave a fantastic That is not what the members of the Bon.rd of Trade said whP.n they ~·'ere interviewed after. MR. MORGAN: They did not decline comment to CBC. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Nine out of ten, Hr. Speaker, declined comment. But in the meantime, the Premier made a statement that the development of the Lower Churchill was dead. He said it was a myth. There were no quali­ fications to his statement.

There was nothing to say, well, as the Minister of Energy told me last night when I was down doing the estimates of Mines and Energy, it was because we could not wheel the power across Quebec ten years ago or we can export the - AN HON. ME!>'!.BER: Develop it. MR. NEARY: oevelop it, yes, and export the surplus power now 1 We can still do that. No quali­ fication, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman made .an off­ the-cuff statement that has been denied by the Minister 'of Energy. 837

March 23, 1984 Tape 308 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is proceeding to make a speech and I would ask him if he would be kind enough to direct a question to the ~inister. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I must give up watching the House of Commons because they are allowed quite a

preamble when they are asking their questions up there. I would like to ask the minister who is right and who is wrong. The minister has contra­ dicted the Premier, ~o doubt about that, no ifs, ands or buts. The hon. gentleman did not qualify his statement, he just made it. 'It is a myth,' he said. You cannot be any more definite than that. Now, will the hon. gentleman get· up and try to straighten out the mess and clarify the statements that were made by the Premier when he was down addressing the Board of Trade and got carried away? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, as to who is right and who is wrong, I can tell the hon. gentleman we are right and you are wrong. s·oME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. MARSHALL: And that is the reason, Mr. Speaker, why we are in the position we are in today. The Premier, in his speech to the Board of Trade when he made reference to the Lower Churchill, said quite clearly what is the 838

March 23,1984 Tape No. 309 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: policy and has been the policy of this government for a long period of time, that we desire and we are moving to see what possibly can be done with respect to the development of the Lower Churchill.

But it has to be understood at the present time,because of escalatio~s in costs that have occured whilst we had been prevented form wheeling the power through the Province of Quebec,that no longer is the Lower Churchill the source of cheap electricity for the people of this Province ·--as it would have been ten or fifteen years ago had we been able to enjoy the same rights in Confederation as other provinces of Canada now enjoy, ~hat is, had we been able to wheel the surplus power from Gull Island through the Province of Quebec for sale to markets in the United States.

So,Mr.Speaker, the situation is that the Premier and I . were, are and ~ know always will be,completely and absolutely consistent. The fact of the matter is what we are looking to at the present time is the possibility of recalling power 1 and· recalling power cheaply, for use in Newfoundland from the Upper Churchill contract; This is what we are engaged in at the present time. We are attempting, as the hon. gentleman there opposite knows 1 to reclaim resources that were given away,be it in the hydro area or be it in the offshore or in the fisheries for that matter.

What his government is doing is fighting to see if we can reclaim resources that were given away, inadvertently maybe in some cases although it was lack of perception in the ~erms of ·anion in many cases, but negligently, and. almost criminally negligently by the han. gentleman and his colleagues when they were in government and they 839

March 23,1984 Tape No. 309 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: signed that invidion~ Upper Churchill contract. So , Mr. Speaker, to corre bad< to· the fi=st part of my ans,>~er, when the hon. gentleman asked who is right and who is wrong,I would say we are right and you are wrong and,because you people were wrong,-:he people of Newfoundland today will not enjoy, the cheaper electricity that they would have otherwise been able to enjoy and to which they are entitled from their own resources. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Before I recognize the hon. Leader of the Oppssition (Mr.Neary}, 840

March 23, 1984, Tape 310, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): I would just like to take a few minutes to welcome to the galleries today sixty Grade VIII students from Holy Redeemer School in Spaniard's Bay and their teachers,Jennifer Pottier and John Drover, from the District ~f Harbour Grace. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, when the han. gentleman starts talking about giveaways he should be reminded about the greatest giveaway in Newfoundland's history.

The greatest giveway in the history of this Province is the administration throwing away the offshore resources by referring the ownership question to the Newfoundland Appeals Court. There is the biggest giveaway in the whole history of this Province. Whatever bit of bargaining power the~had they threw it away, Mr. Speaker, and the han. gentleman has some face to get up and talk about giveaways. Now the han. gentleman is smarting under that. They are just ignoring the Supreme Court and pretending that they can carry on in a normal way. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the han. gentleman this: And, by the way, I would like to see the media take the television clips and the tapes and play what the Premier said to the Board of Trade side by side with what the minister just told us and see who made the statements. Mr. Speaker, you cannot place any

interpretation on it, it was a direct statement. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the President of the Council on a point of order. 841

March 23, 1984 , l'ape 310 , Page 2 -- apt- MR . MARSHALL : This is the Question Period . The hon. gentleman has an oppor tun ity to make speeches,as he does from time to ti me, and all the time when you are considering interim supply, and the Address in Rep.ly, and the Budget Speech and the pieces of legislation that come before the House . But this is the Question Period and the Opposition is there to ask questions and we are here to respond . I am anxious, Mr. Speaker, to hear the hon. gentleman's question, not to listen to his speech. MR . NEARY: I would not even respond to that, Mr. Speaker.

He is wasting the Question Period, that is all. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The Chair, of course 1 is compelled to make rulings on poiflts of order when they are raised. A few moments ago I had t.o ask the. hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) if he would pose a questionr he was indeed into the realm of debate in making a speech, and he proceeded to do the same thing a moment ago. The purpose of the Question Period, as all hon. members are aware, is basically to. give the Opposition an opportunity to ask as many questions as possible and to receive as many answers as possible.

Therefore, both the questions ·and the answers should be very brief. 842

'- March 23, 1984 Tape No. 311 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Premier says it is dead, it is a myth; the Lower Churchill is dead, it is only a myth, there is no possibility of developing it. the minister there opposite says that it is not dead, it is Not a myth.

Now I do not know who is right or wrong,but I want to ask the minister this; In 'riew of his more positive approach than the Premier's,would the han. gentleman tell the House if the matter of_developing the Lower Churchill and the Muskrat Falls - to develop the hydro potential, either for use in the Province or for export --if that matter is being actively pursued at the moment? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. ~1ARSHli.LL : Hr.

Speaker, I want to reiterate once again, if the han. gentleman would consider the speech made by the Premier at the ~card of Trade,he made that statement with respect to the LGwer Churchill being dead or being a myth in the context of the consumers of this Province. And I reiterate,once again,from the point of view of the legitimate expections of the consumers of this Province, it is dead and it is disgraceful that it is dead.Because the people of this Province today would be enjoying much lower electrical rates if we had gotten and attained our rights within the Confederation as we were entitled to attain.

Now with res pect to the other question by the hon. member 1I can say that it is being pursued, it is being actively pursued through the Lower Churchill Development Corporation and we will continue to do it.But, obviously 1 what has to happen is there has to be a rationalization primarily of that long-standing,thorny issue of the rights of this Province to transport electrical power through the Province of Quebec and through all parts of Canada. 843

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 311 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: The Parliament of Canada gave you that right. MR. MARSHJI.LL: Yes, they gave us that right! Oh,listen to that gr~at apologist again. Listen to the gentleman seeking a seat in the Senate of Canada, Mr. Speaker, apologizing once again for the Government of Canada. The rights that were given to us by the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker, that legislation constitutes a cynical act on the part of the Government of Canada. It would take us,in order to imolement- HR. NEARY: They gave you a corridor across Quebec. HR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: - implement that,if we could implement it, to the year 2050 before we would get through the environmental enquiries in the Province of Quebec and all the other yardsticks that was there. It is absolutely useless and it constitutes a cynical gesture by the federal government of the time to try to weasel out of their obligations to protect this Province and give this Province the same rights as the rest of Canada in Confederation. Now, Mr.

Speaker, to get back to the question that the han. gentleman asked, it is being pursued. 1 and it will continue to be pursued but 1 first of all,of course,we have to have a rationalization of this long-stanci!ing problem of the ri .ght to transmit electrical po~er. ~m. BAJL~Y: Mr. Speaker. 844

March 23,1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. BARRY: Tape 312 PK - 1 The hon. member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on those questions. I would like to ask the Minister ~esponsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall) whether he has any information on the present needs in the Province of Quebec for electricity? Whether he has any information on the effect which the North American recession has had on demand either in Quebec or in other parts of North America? And how that might affect the requirement of Quebec for electricity at the present time~ In other words , is it possible , Mr.

Speaker, that the same demand is not there in Quebec at the present time for electricity and that this government· may have missed a window where Quebec was highly interested in obtaining energy, and where there may not be the same urgency of demand in Quebec at the present time? In other words, has the deiay of this government in reaching an agreement put the possibility of developing the Lower Churchill or other hydro sites in Labrador further away than would otherwise would have been the case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, as the hon. gentleman will understand,in the Province of Quebec at the present time they obviously have a surplus of power because they are selling it to the New England states, they are selling their power to the ~ower Authority in the State of New York. They made applications to the National Energy Board and the hon. gentleman is aware of the disposition of that despite the intervention of this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it comes passing strange to this government,and it should come to the people of Newfoundland that,on the one hand,the Province of Quebec by the National Energy Board is given the right to 845

March 23, 1984 Tape 312 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: transmit, to sell power to New York State, and perhaps to the New England states, in order to enable the authority in New York to build a transmission line,and at the same tL~e our intervention in and our request for power from the ProvL~ce of Quebec through the Upper Churchill is denied because we have not got those same lines built .

In other words, the National Energy Board gives the right to the Government of Quebec to sell power, approves its power, and to enable a state in the United States to bu~ld a transmission line,but refuses us 1and that is passing strange and we will have more to say about t:hat in the future as well. Now with respect to outside of Quebec,as to their needs, the hon. gentleman well knows the fact that there is a surplus in the Province of Quebec through the James aay Development and mainly,as well, if you add to it the Upper Churchill amounts that they have which represent a considerable amount 846

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 313 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: of their energy capacity that was given to them by the new found colleagues of the hon. gentleman some time ago. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the question with respect to the needs in the rest of North America, -. obviously hydro power,because it affords the possibil~ty of a fixed price, is the mos·t attractive means of generation of power and electricity, .and it will remain s·o • Gull Island and Muskrat Falls, from the perspective, is one of the more attractive sites in North America and all we need at the present time to be ahle to tackle the problem and proceed is to get the same right~ as other Canadians ·. Mr. Speaker, I think I have responded to all of the questions that have been asked by the hon. gentleman.

The rest of the questions, I think, are politically motivated. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.Russell) : The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I could become a little more precise i:n th.e question that the minister did not answer. Has the minister received any recent information, or to put it another way , when was the last time. that a study was done to determine the present position of the Provi .nce of Quebec, the present situation with respect to the extent of the surplus, when that surplus would be exhausted, when the Province of Que.Oec would need additional power? MR.

SPEAKER: The. hon, President of the Council. MR·. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, these studies are going on all the time. <~thin the past six months we have had this in relation to initiatives that we have been taking. But I want to tell the han. gentleman that it is n?t to the. Province of Quebec-~nd this is where,I think,he must have become brainwashed the past month with his pe.w-foun~_g£~~d~ it is not the intention( Mr. Speake.rr of this 847 ./

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 313 so - 2- MR. MARSHALL: government and not the desire of this government necessarily to sell it to the ·Province of Quebec . The point is we do not look at the Province of Quebec as being the only source of sale when the whole point of this exercise, Mr: Speaker, is that all of No rth America, where it ±s technically feasible to transmit and sell this power, s·nould be our market .

And tlie question is , when it becomes poli ·tically feasible, when this geographi cal minority in Confederat ion , the Province of Newfoundland, is goir.g to be treated equally with all other provinces ,then we will have a broader market to be able to explore. But in the meantime we totally and absolutely reject the premise that we have to sell the power to the Province of Qu eoec within the context that the hon. gentleman see .ms to be s.uggestin g. Be seems to oe suggesting because Quebec 848

March 23,1984 Tape No. 314 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: has not got adequate power 1 then we go to Quebec and ask them to take our power. Now that is not the question, Mr.Speaker, What is the question is the need of power in North America and the right of this Province to sell that power to customers,be they in Ontario or the United States,when it becomes technically feasible so to do. I-ill'.. B~'"L.~Y ~ Mr, Speaker, HR. SPEAKER (Russelll.; The han. member for Mount Scio.

MR.BARRY: Last week the minister stated that the government was involved in, I believe the wording was, se~~itive negoti~tions · with the province of Quebec. Is the minister now telling us that no part of these negotiations refers to the possibility of developing other hydro sites in Labrador, whether it be the Lower Churchill or whether it be the rivers,which Newfoundland cannot develop itself,which flow into the province of Quebec?

Is the minister saying that his negotiations with Quebec are not based upon the sale of any further power in the future to the province of Quebec,they are based upon the sale of power to the third parties. MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: First of all,I want to underscore that we are not making any comments,and I continue to refuse to make any comments with respect to these very sensitive negotiations. So I am not going to say what is being discussed at those negotiations and what is not being discussed in those negotiations because it is not beneficial at the present time.

But all I can assure the hon. gentleman is that 849

March 23,1984 Tape No. 314 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: these negotiations are being and will be conducted for the benefit of the people of Newfoundland.

It is a matter of some pride to this government that we were able to initiate these discussions,and that is as far as I will go at the present time; I ;olill just say that they are very sensitive negotiations.But I can guarantee the hon. gentleman that they are going to be conducted for the benefit of Newfoundland and whatever results from those negotiations or from policies of this goverment in the future,the hon. gentleman can be quite well assured that we reject his thesis 1that he seems to be implying in his questions,to the effect that Quebec is the only purchaser of power generated in this Province.

I reiterate once agaifr that this Province has the vested right to sell power to any part of North America where it is technically feasible to transmit that power. And this Province 1 in order to do that,has to attain the same constitutional rights of equity and fairness in Confederation to enable that to be done .. T.his government will not desist from that premise,whether it be in the offshore or whether it be in hydro power or whether it be in fisheries. And we are not, Mr. Speaker, going to embrace the policies apparently 850

March 23, 1984, Tape 315, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: enunciate0 hy the hon. gentleman,and now apparently embraced by him, that Quebec is the only purchaser of Newfoundland power. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, is the - minister saying that the need of the Province of Quebec for power is not relevant to the current negotiations? Is the minister saying whether or not there may be other purchasers? Is the minister saying that he is shutting his eyes to the question of whether the Province of Quebec itself needs further power? MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: The han. the President Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate:I am saying nothing with respect to the present negotiations. If the hon. gentleman wants a response within the realm of the policy of this government,I will tell him. Obviously the answer is that the need for the Province of Quebec, the need for the Province of Ontario, the need for the State of New York and the New England States, all of them are relevant to this Province, and the Maritime Provinces as well. What I am saying is it is not relevant to us, the premise that the sole purchaser of Newfoundland power has to be the Province of Quebec.

If you accept that, Mr. Speaker, you are imprisoned once again and you are in danger of making the same mistake that the administration of the hon. gentlemen there opposite made so many years ago which the people of ~ewfoundland bear the burden and the yoke of at the present time. So let it be clear that the needs of everybody are relevant. We hope to be able to sell power at the best price we can obtain from any 851

March 23, 19 84, Tape 315, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: source; but the point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is that there is not only one source~ there is more than one source and this can only be realized when we are treated as equal Canadians. SOME HON. MEMBERS ; Hear , hear! MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): t-1ount Scio. MR . BARRY: Mr. s.peaker.

The han. the member for Is the minister saying that in negotiating, whether it be with the Province of Quebec on electricity , or whether it be \Y'i th the federal government on the off shore, or whether it be with the employees of this government in collective bargaining, that it is not relevant to determine the other side's position to try ar.d get a .view of ho,., baclly the other side would like to have a deal? Is the minister saying that that is ignored by him 852

r1arch 23, 1984 Tape 316 EC ~ 1 MR. BARRY: and he does not look at and try to put himself in the place of the person on the other side of the bargaining table so that he can get the best deal for Newfoundland by knowing just how badly the other side ~ight want to have a deal? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not know where the hon. gentleman would get an impression like that. I mean, the hon. gentleman hears things he wants to · hear, obviously. I did not say that.

Obviously, what the other side at the bargaining table wishes is very relevant and you have to enquire into it. But what is more important, Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentlemen there opposite do not really understand, is you really have ~o understand as well where you are coming from. You know what the other side is thinking, and when you know that the other side wants you to capitu­ late, and this is the only thing that the other side will accept! and this is consistent with the history within Confederation, you do not accept that, Mr. Speaker·.

What you do, obviously, in negotiations, in the first place 1 obviously, you know where the other person is coming from. But even more importantly than that, Mr. Speaker, you have to know where you are coming from, you have to know what your rights are 1 and you have to be prepared to enforce these rights and not be in the position of approaching somebody as if you were a beaten dog, not prepared to go to Ottawa as a beggar on horseback but to go to Ottawa as proud Canadians, asserting the rights of Canadians in Newfoundland. That is what we will continue to do, And when we do it, Mr.

Speaker, certainly, we have to understand the other side, because it is very necessary to do 853

March 23, 1984 Tape 316 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: that, particularly in our relationships wit~ Ottawa. Because,obviously, from Ottawa's point of view, they treat us as a colony and the main thrust ar-d aim of this government is to try to get that thinking changed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. I-1ARSHALL: It has been made much more difficult, Mr. Speaker, over the years by the attitude of the hon. gentlemen there opposite when they were in government and presently in the stance that they are taking now in Opposition. In their mad lust for power, Mr.

Speaker, to get power they would do anything to derogate the interests of the people of this Province. They show it in every statement that they make and they are showing it in Question Period this morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman's hatred for anything that is Liberal is unbelievable! It is unbelievable! SOME ' HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: The hon. gentleman will put every resident of Newfoundland and Labrador in debtor's prison just to satisfy his own ego and his stubbornness. Mr. Speaker,. the hon. gentleman is paranoid, almost as paranoid as the Premier, and that is saying something! Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman talks about Newfoundlanders and Labradorians getting cheaper electricity if this happened and that happened. The hon. gentleman has it in his own hands, with the Public Utilities Board,to give Newfoundlanders 854

March 23, 1984 Tape 316 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: cheap electricity. Has he done ;.a...? -'-· No , Mr. Speaker, he has not done it. The Cabinet has the final say in whether or not electricity rates increase in this Province and the hon . gentleman lets the Public Utilities Board rubber stamp increases. MR. SPEAKER (Russe ll ) : Order , please ! Order, please ! I wonder if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary ) would like to pose a question . .J."1R . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon . gentleman lets the Public Utilities Board rubber stamp increases and then he has 855

March 23, 1984 Tape 317 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: the face, the nerve to stand up and tell us they would have cheaper electricity. Why do they not have it now? We have a government over there that has the final say in these ma~ters. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the han. gentleman this: What kind of a time frame are we talking about with negotiations with the Province of Quebec on this package deal that is being .talked about, the reopening of the Upper Churchill Falls contract, the development of the Lower Churchill, wil.eeling the power over the transmission lines in Quebec,and if necessary Quebec-Hydro putting up a large chunk of the financing of that project, and the development of the five rivers referred to by my colleague 1 the member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry); w~at kind of a time frame are we talking about to settle these matters and to get an agreement with the Province of Quebec? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, ·when the han. gentleman talks about the Public Utilities Board, he knows as weil as I do, as everybody does, that the ~ublic Utilities Board sets the power utility rates on the basis of cost recovery.

And he also knows that it was this administration ·which have made the Public Uti lities Board more relevant than it has ever been before by requiring Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to present its applications for increases to the Public Utilities Board. He also understands that what is obtained has to be paid for, and it is either going to be paid for by the consumer or it is going to be paid for by taxes. You know, it is not like the han. gentleman's funny financial ways in which the han. gentleman would look to the heavens,as it were,and expect manna to come down from heaven.

It just does not operate that way ·. Electricity has to be paid for ; it either has to be paid for through taxes 856

~.arch 23, 1984 Tape 317 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL : or it has to be paid for by the consumers , This government has taken every conceivable step possible to protect the consumers by making Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro report to the Public Utilities Board, and by doing all it can to increase the effectiveness of that board, as it will continue to do in the future . Now with respect to the hon. gentleman 's main question,with respect to the time frame, once again I will say that these are sensitive negotiations and I am not going to be put in a position of responding 857

March . 23, 1984 Tape No. 318 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: in a way that we feel, and legitimately feel, could affect those negotiations. All I can tell the hon. gentleman is that there will be as much time as the government perceives is necessary hopefully to strike a good deal or otherwise to determine that a deal is unattainable.

But I can tell the hon. gentleman, as much time will be taken as necessary to explore as to whether or not it is, in fact, possible to unravel that horrendous mistake that was made by the hon. gentleman there opposite which now sees approximately $700 million a year go into the Province of Quebec while we get a paltry $8 million a year 1which now sees, Mr. Speaker, a budget in this Province financed on the basis of a manageable deficit but a deficit just the same. ~~R. NEARV: 'ii'Jh:n you nationalized Churchill Falls (inaudible) over $10 million a year. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, he talks about electrical rates !

Imagine having the gall to talk about electrical rates in this House when the hon. gentleman was a party to giving away $700 million a year of our electrical rates. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr. Speaker, I will tell the hon. gentleman this: We will take as much time as · is neces-sary in order to forge the best deal for the people of this Province,and we will not forge a deal on this or any other matter unless it is for the long and enduring benefit of the young people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now I know that will disao~oint the hon. gentleman but that is the position that we take. SUME: HON. MEMBERS: H:ear, hear~ ' MR '.. NEA·Ry: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER ' (Russel-:I. l : The hon, Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to change 858

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 318 so - 2 ¥..R. NEARY: the subject for a moment to talk about tl'l.e offshore. We had quite a struggle last .night down in the old Colonial Building, the bon. gentleman a.nd myself, prooably the wildest debate seen in that building since \-le gave up Responsible Government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman was wrestled to the floor, Mr. Speaker, several times. · SOME HON. ~£MBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Rus·se'lJ.t: Order, please! MR. NEARY: And his colleagues found out _something that they did not know before. MR.

SPEl'>..ICER : brd'er r please~ I would like to ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Neary 1 to pose a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon . gentleman's colle .agues found out son{ething that they did not know before and here is what they found out . They found out that these wild,i:rresponsible statements being made by the h.on. gentleman about the package tha.t was on tl'l..e table . when neqotiations were going on with Mr . Chretien in 1982 and 198 3 - the hon. gentleman keeps saying that proposal 859

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 319 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: was the same as the Nova Scotia agreement - members of his caucus found out last night that that is not true. Let me ask the han. gentleman one question just to confirm what I am saying and that has to do with the managemer.t committee. Is it not a fact, Mr.

Speaker - and I want the hon. gentleman to level and be honest about this and not play political games because I have the Telex here in front of me to the han. gentleman which I am prepared to table, so he need not try to mislead the House or mislead the people or deceive the people - is it not a fact that in that proposal, in that package there was a proposal for a management committee comprised of three appointees by the Ne wfoundland Government, three appointees by the Government of Canada, and the six would get together and select a Chairman?

Now, can the hon. gentleman tell the House if that kind of a proposal is in the Nova Scotia agreement? MR. SP EAKER (Ru ssell) : Order, please! Order, please! That answer may have to wait another day, the time for the Question Period has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: Does the House want to grant leave to the minister to answer? MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBEr'S : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: No, let him suffer. Let him mull it over. Hear, hear! Oh, oh! Order, please! Let him mull it over, let him sleep on it, ~x. Speaker, because we want an honest answer. smm HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh !

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Leave has not been granted. 860

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 319 MJ - 2 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Hinister of Development. HR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in tabling the 1982-83 annual report of the Ne\'Tfoundland Oceans Research and Development rorporation. As hon. members are aware ,NORDCO i_s a provincially controlled company involved in research and development projects and acts as a service/consulting organization in the area of marine industrial development.

Some of the major corporate highlights of NORDCO during the fiscal year 1982-83 are as follows: As a direct result of managerial and personal efforts, corporate activity resulted in significant market penetration raising corporate revenues to $5.5 million, an increase of 50 per cent over l98l-B2~ Direct impact of such activity has placed NORDCO in a 'profitable picture as it shows a profit on operations 9f $293,250 for the fiscal year ending March 31, l983.

The activity of NORDCO couple with those of its subsidiaries, Geonautics and CAN AM Offshore, contributed approximately $6.8 million,or 75 per cent of their combined earnings, to the provincial economy via the·ir expenditures. 861

March 23, 1984, Tape 320, Page 1 -- apb MR. WINDSOR:- All four divisions of NORDCO have performed well during the period. Either through expansion of activity or continuation of existing work,the technical personnel and managerial efforts are paying rewards. Such efforts of the staff speak well of the future of NORDCO,as maintaining a technological edge is extremely important in this area of development. During the fiscal year 1982/83 NORDCO did not require provincial funds for its operations. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. GOUDIE: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTION Mr. Speaker.

The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask ' leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Livestock Act". MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER: Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Elevators Act". MR. NEARY: down. MR. DINN: It is your act to ride it Yes, it is only down for the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary).

And I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a special bill, a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Boiler Pressure Vessel And Compressed Gas Act", especially for the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 862

March 23, 1984, Tape 320, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): ·· The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: I have to point out to the House that the Minister of Energy(Mr. Marshall) had an opportunity to answer my question, Mr. Speaker. Obviously he wants to take my advice and mull it over on the weekend so he ca~ give me a straight, honest answer for a change. He just missed an opportunity to give me the answer to the question, Mr. Speaker, he missed that opportunity and I would say the hon. gentleman should learn the rules of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) did not raise a valid point of order. MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: ORDERS OF THE DAY The hon. the President Mr. Speaker, I think there is an error in the Order Paper. However, I would just like to note that the hon. gentleman has missed the opportunity, he waited until the other Orders were called before he got up and said it. But interim supply does not appear to be on the Order Paper today, the motion. Did the printer miss it, interim supply? Anyway, it is supposed to be on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker.

I call the House into Committee of the Whole for the purpose of considering interim supply. MR. NEARY: on·a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Just as a matter of 863

March 23, 1984, Tape 320, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: curiosity 1I would like to ask Your Honour if it is possible to call an order in this House that is not on the Order Paper. Now, I believe that should be researched. Andbefore we go into Committee of Supply,I would like to have the answer, because I believe the hon. gentleman is out of order. I think that if a matter is not on the Order Paper there is no way we can debate it in this House. Whether it was an error of omission, a typographical error or whatever it was, Mr.

Speaker, we follow the House of Assembly Order Paper, Orders of the Day, and we have to take the Orders of the Day in the order in which they are shown on the Order Paper. The hon. gentleman has gotten up and said that the administration, through negligence or through and error of omission,have neglected to put the Committee of Supply on the Order Paper,and I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that there is no way under the circumstances that we can go into Committee of the Whole until the item is placed on the Order Paper tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the President of This is really an example of the smallness of mind and stature of the hon. gentleman, that he would get up and actually make that point. It is not a case of emba=rassing the government, it is a case of probably embarrassing one of the staff, and I do not think the staff should be embarrassed because those things do occur. 864

March 23,1984 Tape No. 321 ah-1 MR.MARSHALL: On yesterday's Order Paper, Mr. Speaker, there was on "Motion 2. - The hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) - To Move that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain Resolutions for the Granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty (No.lO)"- being Bill No. 10. So the answer to it is it is already on the Order Paper. MR.NEARY: No, it is not. MR.MARSHALL: It was considered yesterday. MR. NEARY: No, today 1 s Order Paper. MR.MARSHALL: It is a typographical error in the Order Paper.

The printers do not set the Orders of this House, it is:. the House that sets the Orders of the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, it shows, as I say, how completely small the hon. gentleman is to raise it as a point of order and, really, how intellectually bankrupt the Opposition is that it would consume the time of the House with such a spurious point of order, geared not to embarrass the government but to attempt to embarrass the people outside the House and permanent officers of the House. I think it is incumbent upon the han. gentleman to get up and apologize to the people concerned. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR.SPEAKER (Russell ) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a pretty serious matter, as far as I am concerned. The hon. gentleman. is trying to weasel his way out of the way he is mismanaging this House, because the hon. gentleman should check the Order Paper. The Order Paper should be thoroughly checked by the Government House Leader 865

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 321 ah - 2 MR. NEARY: The government calls the order of business in this House, Mr. Speaker, and they can only call what is on the Order Paper, otherwise we would have chaos and turmoil in the House, Mr. Speaker. The han. gentleman talks about apologies. The han. gentleman should apologize to the House for his own stupidity and neglect, Mr. Speaker, in this particular matter. He cannot hide behind the fact that the item was on yesterday's Order Paper . Yesterday's Order Paper is dead, -Mr: Speaker, it is as dead as a dodo, is as dead as the Premier said the Lower Churchill Falls is.

It is a myth. It is dead, Mr. Speaker. It is today's Order Paper that we are following. And, Mr. Speaker, the han. g~ntlernan ,should be prepared to admit man-fashion that it is virtually impossible for us to follow an Order Paper if the han. gentleman is going to get up and amend the Order Paper when we come into the House, to put things on that were not on the original Order Paper. MR. CARTE R: Sit down. Sit down. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman says, 'Sit down' Mr.

Speaker, you cannot have this House run by han. gentlemen making up their own Order Paper and making up their own rules and regulations as the House goes on. You cannot do that. You may as well be down in a beer pit, you may as well be down in some tavern on Gower Street debating. We can only go on what is on the Order Paper, Mr. Speaker, and we carne into this House fully prepared to debate this Order Paper and the han. gent -leman cannot call an order of business that is not shown on the Order Paper.

Now I would submit that Your Honour adjourn the House for a few minutes to research this matter very carefully, because it is a very important point 866

.aiL March 23,1984 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) President of Council. - - --- - ~.m. IviARSliALL : Tape No. 321 of o.rder. ah-3 I shall hear the hen. The han . gentleman is being ridiculous. If Your Honour wishes to adjourn on a small po~nt like this, of cource 1 it is Your Honour's prerogative to do,but there is authority in Beauchesne. The han. gentleman gets up and he makes all these statements without any authority. I mean if you want to refer to Beauchesne, the Fifth Edition, page 89,:Paragraph 275, it says that if tnere are any error they may be corrected by the House.

And certainly the House can correct them. MR. NEARY: This is not an error. This is an omission. MR.MARSHALL: This is merely a typographical omission. I think we should get on with the business of the House rather than be occupied with this spurious point of order. MR.NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One quick remark , Mr. Order , please! 867

March 23, 1984 Tape 322 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: This is an omission, not a - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has heard enough argument on the point. It is-an interesting point and it is the first time since my term here that matter has been raised. I ~ it is an error on the part of printing the Order Paper. But I would like to adjourn the House for maybe five minutes to take a look at it. RECESS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Call in the members. Order, please! Having some consultation on the point raised by the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), it has been determined that today's Order Paper is identical to past years 1 0rder Papers' when the motion did not appear on the second day either. Yesterday there was a motion on the Order Paper,moved and carried,that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Supply to consider certain Resolutions for the Granting of Interim Supply to Her Majesty. That was passed yesterday and the House went into Committee of the Whole. Therefore,in the Chair's opinion there is not a need to have that appear again today on the Order Paper.

But, indeed, the Committee does appear on the Order Paper as Ccrrtnittee of Supply, which perhaps is the order that should have been called. On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on SUpply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 868

March 23, 1984 Tape 323 EC - 1. M.~. CHAIRMAN (A ylward) : Order, please! We are discussing the resolution pertaining to Bill No. 10. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I want to deal for a few moments today with the extravagance and waste that is involved in the · propaganda, the political bro- chures and the political ads that are being taken out in newspapers and so forth by the han. gentlemen there opposite, because they are sore, Mr. Chairman, they are hopping mad because they lost the court case.

They put the matter before the Newfoundland Appeals Court and before the Supreme Court of Canada-the offshore ownership question-and they lost, and they are not prepared to accept the decisions of the two courts. Now, ~~.Chairman, the hon. gentleman last night indicated,when we were having this great debate down at the old Colonial Building, that the administration there opposite have no intention of negoti­ ating an offshore agreement until after the next federal election. The hon. gentleman is so anti-Canadian, so anti-confederate!

The hon. gentleman cannot get over the fact that Confederation won the day back in 1949 and now they are putting statements in the Budget Speech like 'Confederation is merely an experiment.' That is what the hon. gentleman told us. The Minister of Finance (D~. Collins) is ~es~onsible for the budget, but the administration have to stand behind that document. They have to take the responsibility for it. And here is ~'l'hat they are saying: 'Confederation is merely an experiment.' 869

March 23, 1984 Tape 323 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: That is all it is.' And the han. gentleman keeps working out the anti-confederate statements, the anti-Canadian statements, as he did again last night, draping himself in the flag, rl!r. Chainran, making statements like, 'Oh, we are not going to give in to anybody. What we want,' he said, 'is an honest, fair and equitable agreement for Newfoundland.' Well, can anybody deny that? Is that not what this side of the House wants?

And the hon. gentleman can drape himself all he wants in that kind of a flag, and appeal to people's emotions, but the fact of the matter is that the policy is getting us nowhere. They are on a disaster course. And now, Mr. ~' they have embarked for the third time upon a =ampaign of propaganda. And, ~x. Chairman, here is one of the brochures that they are putting out to householders, The Dffshore.Tory blueJ Mr. Chai.J::rran, they cannot even get a~vay from partisan politics when they are trying to score a point - Tory blue. Just imagine! Whoever dreamt it up must have had a distorted mind, ~l!r.

Chairman, Tory blue, and what does it say? 'We have been fair,' it says, 'We have been fair, first proposal, second proposal, third proposal. ' ~. Cha.i.l::nan, if I had to hang my hat on this little,weak, jelly-livered brochure that has been sent out to householders to get a good deal for Newfoundlanders on the offshore resources, Mr. ChaUT.an, I am afraid that it would be doomed to failure. Is that what we are relying on, the likes of t~at, to try to get a good deal on the offshore? And what will that accomplish, Mr.

Chairman, It is a little bit of low, sneaky politics, that is what it is, cheap politics that will accomplish nothing. I tried to nail the hon. gentleman down last night. And this is the third time, by the way, they have tried this. They lost the battle 870

-·· March 23, l':t84 Tape 323 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: of the seal hunt, they threw that away, and they are going to lose this. This is not going to get anybody anywhere, buying ads in news­ papers. The Premier said, 'I am going to take off on a cross-Canada speaking tour.' I say to that, So what? 871

Harch 22, 1984 Tape No . 324 HJ - 1 MR. NEARY: He wants to get out of the Province while the heat is on. He wants to distract people from the real problems in this Province 1which is unemployment among young people, high electricity rates , the ~ighest taxes in Canada, student allowances, no future for young people graduating from our university and the College of Trades and the Fisheries College. A bleak outlook, a bleak future.

Parents are brokenhearted because their sons and daughters, twent y-three, twenty-four and twenty-five years of age cannot find jobs even though they have degrees from the university, Mr. Chairman. They have their degrees and they have their skills and they have their training but they cannot find jobs 1 so what does the Premier do? Does he elect to go to the negotiating table to find out what kind of a package can be put on the table that we can negotiate, that will be fair and honest for Newfoundland and for the rest of Canada? Does he do that? MR. WALSH: They do not want to negotiate. MR.

NEARY: Who said they do not want to negotiate? I heard ~x. Chretien, I saw him on TV, say, 'Yes, let us sit down and negotiate. We are anxious to get back to the negotiating table.' ~-1R. WALSH: As long as you give it all to US';; MR. NEARY: How · rcan the hon. gentleman justify a statement like that, Mr. Chairman, 'As long as you give it all to us.' That is their paranoia coming out. Mr. Chairman, the fact of ~he matter is that back in 1983,when negotiations broke off with hon. genblemen there opposite,there was a package on the table that we will never see the likes of again .

It was a very generous package , it had nothing to do with the Nova Scotia agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, I sent copies to 872

Harch 22, 1984 Tape No. 324 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) the other day. I said, 'I got something I would like for you to rea~. You are a thinking Newfoundlander and you should read this because this is being kept away from the caucus members.' The cco .ucus members are being duped and deceived by their leader. One of the items in that agreement had to do wit.'fJ. a management committee. No'q listen to Nhat Mr. Chretien said in his Telex of January 26, 1983 to the hon. gentleman - something I doubt very much if the caucus over there heard before.

They are hearing it now for the first time because this information is being kept away from them to try to keep their morale up a bit, to wra~ them all in the flag. He said, 'Dear Bill: Following up on our telephone conversation and your Telex of today's date , I was happy to receive your personal confirmation that the points set out in your Telex of yesterday were simply 'perimeters' and not preconditions to our resuming our talks face to face .

From the beginning you and I have agreed that we would explore new !'lvenues in an effort to come to a draft agreement and a memorandum that we could take to our respective governments. I am eager to carry on this process immediately to try to make up for the time we have lost since your return to St. John's last Friday. I understand your position on the seventeen points raised in your Telex of yesterday and give you a firm undertaking that I shall be ready to address each and every one with you face to face when we meet. As I see it,' Mr.

Chretien says in his Telex to the Minister, 'the key elements of the basic perimeters to which you and I have generally agreed on our discussions to date are: (1)· a joint management board responsible to both ministers • ' Is that in the ~! ova -Scotia agreement? I ask hon. gentleman to be honest and fair and stand up man-fashion and admit whether it is or not. 873

March 22, 1984 Tape No . 324 ~.J - 3 MR . NEARY : Three memb ers appointed I by this Province, three appointed by Ottawa and they get together and select a chairman. Is that in the Nova Scotia agreement? If it is not,why is the hon. gentleman allowed, as spokesman for that crowd there opposite 1to keep repeating the big lie day in and day out that the proposal was the sane as the Nova Scot ia agreement when hon. gentlemen there 09posite la:!avs that that is untrue. It is the big lie. Why would the hon . gentleman make that kind of a statement, Mr . Chairman? Why? To further his otm political ends and his own political game playing . 874

March 23, 1984 Tape 325 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: And listen to this, Mr. Chairman, '(2) 'Wnen the Board cannot reach a decision on a consensus basis, "Paramountcy" for the federal and provincial ministers in specified areas.

(3) A deadlock breaking mechanism for the federal minister until energy security in oil self-sufficienc y is achieved, with safeguards to ensure that it is used reasonably. Afterwards the provincial minister would have to concur.' Is that in the Nova Scotia agreement? Is it? Are han. gentleman hearing it for the first time? And if they are, are they ashamed that they did not try to .find out if this was all political propaganda and poppycock and balderdash. That is not in the Nova Scotia agreement.

And I am amazed that the med ·ia and the press would allow the han. gentleman to get away with these wild,irresponsible statements that he keeps making that are completely untrue. 'Number 4'-listen . to this, and I ask hon. gentlemen if this is in the Nova Scotia agreement-- 1 A revenue sharing scheme which would initially provide the Province 75 per cent of offshore resources revenues, declining as the Province achieves a high level of income to a permanent share comparable to the initial federal share recognizing the incentives which have been paid to industry by the Canadian taxpayer.' Mr.

Chairman, is that in the Nova Scotia agreement? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chainnan, I had not intended ? to speak but I have to speak in response to the han. gentleman 1 not really that there is any need to, but just in_case there might be one or two people in the Province who , you know, might listen to the han. gentleman and not have heard before what consummate nonsense .the han. gentleman is speaking.

Once again he speaks from the point of view of a Telex that has been given to him by his colleagues in Ottawa - 875 .-

March 23, 1984 Tape 325 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: It was sent to you. MR. MARSHALL: - which he is prepared to accept verbatim without any enquiry as to whether or not it is true in fact and in substance. Now, Mr. Chairman, just before I get on to that,the han. gentleman talks about the waste of money in that brochure. There is no waste of money, Mr. Chairman, in sending out to the people of this Province information of critical importance to the people of this Province so that they can see exactly what the situation is, and that is what was done. If you want to talk about waste of money, Mr.

Chairman, and I can tell this- I do not want to get the han. gentleman paranoid now, but he has a certain mailing list, th .e hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) does it was just a couple of days ago that a person called me absolutely incensed that the Leader of the Opposition was using, he said­ and I repeat it and I will bring this up in the House because it was a legi~imate complaint~that he was using the mailing system in the Opposition Office to send out certain information. And what was he sending out?

He was sending out 1I am told 1the March 9 and March 15 publications of the Toronto Globe and Mail to the people concerned. Now, Mr.~, if he wants to talk about wasting money 1 I will put that brochure up .against some of the diatribe that ·occurs from time to time in the uninformed comment from the Central Canadian pcess that the han. gentleman is sending out to people. 876

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 326 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: It is the misuse of, as far as I am concerned, of public money. I am sure the Toronto Globe and Mail can afford its own circulation and the hon. gentleman does not need to be sending out clippings of the Toronto Globe and Mail to certain people at public expense. I would also draw to the hon. gentlemen's _attention there opposite that this is his own personal mailing list of supporters and if some of their supporters ring us up and tell us what they are receivinq from t~e Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) and ~mote disgrace over·w!lai: they are receivins and the I use of public fund·s, it just goes to show how little support the hon. gentleman there opposite has. Now I will just deal very briefly with the way in which the hon. gentleman tries to twist things ~ He tries to say there was joint management and this was different than the Nova Scotia agreement. Mr. Chainran, if this were different than the Nova Scotia agreement it was only because it was marginally worse than the Nova Scotia agreement. He repeats by rote, you know, what the minister said on joint management.

And he does not inquire in any depth into the last phrase that he read out to the effect that deadlock breaking mechanism which the federal minister would exercise t111 energy self-sufficiency and security of supply. -Now, you know, the federal ministe~ in other words 1 was to exercise a deadlock :breaking mechanismi if the federal minister felt it was unreasonable 1 he could break the whole thing. So obviously it was not joint management, it could not be joint management when the final decision rests with the federal minister.

It would be just. as we11 1 if you are prepared to be a suppliant in that fashion, to forget the board altogether or forget any board 1and give it to the federal minister. Furthermore, Mr.chairman, 877

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 326 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: far as the board goes, the way in which the board was set up , the han. gentleman does not mention that the three and three on the board, it was envisaged that all of th .e emplcyees would they be employees of the Province? No, they should not be of the Province. Would they be employees of the federal government? No, I think any rational person would say that they are going to have joint management, they would not be of the federal government either, obviously, they would have to be employees of the board and reporting to the board.

That did not suffice the federal authorities. What they wanted, ann 'Vlhat Mr. Chretien was proposinq,was that the employees be responsible to whom and employees of who m? The federal government 1not of the board. We said they had to be of the board. Now how can you have joint management when you have that? And then, Mr. Chairman, he gets into other situations that he does not know where he is treading. The fact of the mai!:ter is all legislation was to be federal legislation 1 so it was totally and completely federal control and a federal board just like the Nova Scotia agreement.

Now, you know, if there is any reason why the people of Newfoundland should be leary of acceptance of that Nova Scotian agreement , I mean, there is nobody in this · Province today who should be deluded into thinking that the Nova Scotian agreement was a good agreement for this · Province becaus ·e, in fact~ the Nova Scotian agreement had been assessed as being of substantially n.o use to the Province of Nova Scotia. I have here a report called 1'Th .e Soci .o,-Economic Review of the Venture Development Project• ·, the Venture Development Project, of course, being the Nova Scotian project.

It was conducted by a socio-economic review ·panel and its membership cons·isted of the nominees of th .e Government o.f Nova . Scotia and COGLA 1 which is the federal agency. I quote, 878

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 326 so - 3 MR. MARSHALL: ~1r. Chairman, iirectly from the last paragraph. on page 18 of that report, where it says, "The Province", that is the Province of Nova Scotia, "could gain incremental revenues from the spinoff activity of the project and participation in the crown corporations in the project". This :i:s the construction industry . •rncremental ' they call it, 'incremental revenues', small revenues.

"However, as a first approximation,and in the absence of definitive statement from consultants 1 it is necessary to assume", now get this, "that the net impact of the project on prqvincial :t~evenues is small to negligible" . I will repeat that again, "The net impact of the project " , that is the project in Nova Scotia, "·as a result of that agreement on provincial revenues is small to negligible". Now does anybody really in this Province wish. us to be put into a position where we have to be 879

March 23, 19 8_4 Tape 327 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL : pushed into an agreement? Well, we will not have to be because this administration just will not be. But is there anyone in his wildest imagination who thinks that the Province of Newfoundland should be pressured into any kind of an agreement where, in the assessment of the people who signed it before, the net benefit to this Province should be small to negligible? Is the .Province of Newfoundland only entitled to a small to negligible benefit from the resources offshore, from the resources that we brought into Confederation? HR. DINN: Shocking! MR.

MARSHALL: Can there be any doubt, despite what the hon. gentleman mentioned,that this is what we actually received, both from the revenue aspects and from the joint management? I can tell the hon. gentleman that from my own assessment, that offer that was made, that he touts for !<l...r. Chretien, was marginally worse than the Nova Scotian agreement.

But knowing the hon. gentleman's penchant for not accepting what is said on this side of the House of Assembly, I can also tel)._ him that it was the unanimous, individually and collectively expressed opinion of the officials who were there >vho >vere negoti­ ating at the time, that what was being offered was marginally worse than the Nova Scotian agreement. MR. TULK: Not true! MR. MARSHALL: Not true! It was true, Mr • ChaiJ::nan! The hon. gentleman does not want to do a disservice to his Province,but he is doing it by making an uninformed statement such as that.

It was true and it is true, and if the hon. gentleman wants to analyze it he will see it is as plain as the nose on your face BBD

March 23, '1984 Tape 327 EC - 2 MR. MARS1IALL : that this is all that we were offe~ed and this is all that is on the table at the present time. MR. NEARY: Not true! MR. MARSHALL: And this Province, under the leadership of the Premier of this Province, is not going to be put in a position where we are going to have to submit to an agreement of that nature. It is not right for the people of this Province. I suggest what the han. gentlemen there opposite can do is try to get their federal counterparts to address an agreement that was wrought between myself and ~x.

Chretien,before it was taken away from him and was rendered down, which had been em a~reenent t~1at t-7as based purely and simply on equality, justice and equity for the people of this Province and for the people of all of Canada. It envisaged us getting 75 per cent, for instance, of the total government revenues until such time as our per capita earned incomes in this Province were equal to the per capita average incomes elsewhere.

People should be well aware that one of the major problems in this Province is that when we went into Confederation, the per capita earned income was approximately 49 per cent of the national average. Now, after thirty-five years of Confederation, it has .only ascended to the magnificent sum of 54 per cent. So we say that these resources we brought into Confederation with us, 75 per cent of the revenues - not all of them, you take 25 per cent - but we get 75 per cent until such time as the per capita earned incomes are equal to that of the average Canadian. Now, what is wrong with that?

What is wrong with us receiving 75 per cent until ~·re can 881

March 23, 1984 Tape 327 EC - 3 MR . MARSHALL : bring our taxes down to the ~ level,6 not to wipe them out,but to bring them down to the level of the average in Canada? And what is wrong with us having an equal say in management? MR. CHAIRMAN {Mr . ·Avlward) : Order , please ! The hon. member 's time has elapsed . HR. BARRY: Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR . BARRY: Mr . Speaker , the Minister of Energy (!1r. t!arshall) ~oted from th e socio -economic revie\-7 of the Venture Development Project . He quoted one paragraph but did not quote the parag ra ph immediately preceding it . And in this report, 882

March 23, 1984, Tape 328, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: immediately before the paragraph to which the minister alluded, there is a prior statement which says, "Under existing equalization legislation, which is reviewable on a five year basis, it appears that for every dollar provided by the project the Province give up a dollar, approximately, in equalization payments. This is justifiable since the sole purpose of current equalization payments is to offset the lack of a revenue base for provincial economies.

If, as in Nova Scotia's case 1 a new revenue base is added, equalization transfers from the rest of Canada would be reduced accordingly". Now, Mr. 2hairman, that is the nub of the question. It is not that the development of the Venture gas field will not produce r~venues for both levels of government, including considerable revenues to the Province of Nova Scotia, it is that there would be a dollar for dollar reduction in equalization.

And I understand that,subsequently the Premier of Nova Scotia was reported as saying that the analysts were not aware of an agreement which he had with the Government of Canada with respect to something less than a dollar of equalization being lost for every dollar of revenue coming in. Now, I find it strange to see how there could be such an agreement between the Government of Nova Scotia and the federal government that would not have been made public, but I do not think that is any of our business. If there is such an agreement, well and good. I just hope that there is.

Nor should we be standing up in this House and critizing the Government of Nova Scotia for entering into their deal. They have different objectives as a province than we have. We have our objectives in this Province, they have their objectives. 883

MARCH 23, 1984, Tape 328, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: They may not be as concerned, for example, with being involved in management so as to be able to influence the location of business and so forth. Nova Scotia may be prepared to leave those decisions to the federal government finally, because they know they have a geographic advantage which will see much of this stuff locate in Halifax in any event.

Similarly, they may not have the same need for direct government revenue, although looking at their budget deficits on current account in recent year it would seem that they are strapped for cash the same way this Province is . So the difference between the two Provinces on that may not be all that great. But the point here, Mr. Chairman, is that it is on the question of the rate at which equalization will reduce from oil revenues that the real,crucial bargaining point develops.

And I would hope and expect that Nova Scotia - they were aware of it ,I know- would have some arrangement with respect to getting some advantage from oil other than just an exchange of equalization.

Naturally, everybody in the Province supports the notion of Newfoundland 1 rather than just getting in the same position once oil comes on stream, once Hibernia is developed, or other fields, rather than our being in the same position as far as government revenues are concerned but having that now come from the sale of oil rather than from transfer payments from the federal government, ~t that point in time we would be earning our own way. 884

March 23,1984 MR.BARRY: what is it? Tape No. 329 ah-1 In the current budget­ The Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) would know - close to 50 per cent - MR.BAIRD: You would put the Province in the position of poverty. MR.BARRY: The hon.member for Humber West (Mr.Baird), hopefully soon to be a minister- he can do a much better job than many of them who are there now. MR.BAIRO: Thank you very much.

MR.BARRY: The member for Humber West should be aware that this red herring, this bugaboo, that somehow there are traitors on this side of the House if they dare analyse the government's position, that they are traitors if somehow they ask, for example, why is it that we have these full page ads running in the Daily News and the-Evening Telegram preaching to the converted? the member knows that 99 per cent of Newfoundlanders support the development of these resources for Newfoundland, to have the revenues for the benefit of Newfoundland, to have Newfoundland involved in management, Mr.

Chairman, and that is not the issue anymore. The issue is whether the colleagues of the hon. member are going about achieving those objectives or whether, in fact, the Province is now further away from those objectives than when we started. That is the question which the people of Newfoundland are concerned about. Is the member opposite and his colleagues going about it in the right way in achieving those objectives, Mr.Chairman? So if the member is asking, 'Do I support the objectives,' the answer is, yes, but if the member is asking,' Do I support the way he is going about it and the way his colleagues 885

March 23,1984 Tape No. 329 ah-2 MR.BARRY: are going about it?' the answer is emphatically, no, no, no. You are blowing it, you are making a mess of it, you are taking the Province farther away from achieving what we want to achieve on offshore negotiations. For all of your apparent sincerity, you are taking us further away from getting what our own people deserve and should have than if you were going about it in another way, and, Mr. Chairman, that is the opinion of the vast majority of Newfoudlanders, as the member is going to see in the next election. Mr.

Chairman, members opposite had their chance and they are blowing it. Now, Mr. Chairman, just to get back to these newspaper ads. They may have been, I missed a couple of days of the Globe and Mail - I have been travelling a little bit and I have not been following the national newspapers as closely as I normally do over the last week - but I have yet to see one of those full page ads run in our national newspapers.

Now, Mr.Chairman, I would like to know, and the people of this Province would like to know, and we will find out hopefully in the estimates, where is the money coming from for these full page ads to run them in our local newspapers and what do members opposite see is the point of preaching to the converted? We should be campaigning Mr.Chairman, across Canada; we should be running that type of ad, we should be running our media campaign in other provinces of Canada. MR.DINN: That is coming. MR.BARRY: The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) says it is coming. Well, -I say 886

March 23,1984 Tape No. 329 ah-3 MR.BARRY: it is about time. MR.DINN: Why did you not do it in your five years as Minister of Mines and Ene~gy? MR.BARRY: It is about time. I recommended that it be done years ago and it was ignored, Mr.Chairman. We had a brochure prepared and the minister opposite used it in his election campaign. Rather than getting it our across Canada so that we could convince the people in other provinces, the members opposite used it for their short-term political games in the Province, Mr. Chairman. MR.BAIRD: You used it in your election campaign. MR. BARRY : I did not use that, Mr. Chairman.

MR.CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNi cholas ): Order, please! MR.BARRY: We have a situation where the gover~ent is engaging, Mr. Chairman, paying the taxpayer's dollars on nothing more than political propaganda within the Province and they are failing to do the job they should be doing, namely that of informing the people across Canada of the justice and equity of our case on the offshore. And the time has come, Mr. Chairman, the time has come for them to recognize that they are not going to get away with it. MR.HODDER: off the offshore.

MR.BARRY: They want one more election They are not going to get another election off the offshore, Mr. Chairman. Their time has come. The people of this Province realized that they should be 887

March 23, 1984 Tape 330 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: out talking to the people in other parts of Canada,rather than deluging, Mr. Chairman, the people of this Province and paying the hard earned taxpayers dollars on ads in The Evening Telegram and The Daily News , They should be running these ads across Canada in national newspapers where they will be acting to persuade those people who can influence Mr. Trudeau, and influence Mr. Turner, Mr. Chretei~, Mr. Roberts or whoever else is going to be Prime Minister, Mr. Chairman, even Mr. Mulroney might be influenced, Mr. Chairman, if he wins the election. So, Mr.

Chairman, that is what members opposite should be doing. HR. CHAIRNAN (McNicholas): elapsed. MR. BARRY: get_time again. DR. COLLINS: Order, please! The hon. member's time has Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who just took his seat, of course, is giving a very distorted view of things. He is giving a single little viewpoint of things, sort of tunnel vision, but, however, perhaps I will come back to that. Before doing that 1though 1I would like to make a comment on what the han. Leader of the Opposition said (Mr. Neary). The han.

Leader of the Opposition waxed eloquent and said sc-and-sowas in the Budget Speech. Unfortunately what he said was in the Budget Speech was not in the Budget Speech. And, of course ,thlis is nothing new to have the things said across the way that they are so,when 1 if you just look, if you just examine, as the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) said -·in regard the report that the han. member- 888

March 23, 1984 Tape 330 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) was discussing, if you will just look at it you find that what people are saying are not what are factual. And the same way, what the Leader of_the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said about the Budget Speech is not factual. Now he said that in the Budget Speech I said that Canada is merely an experiment. And he said, 'Terrible, Merely an experiment. Imagine the minister saying, 'Canada is merely an experiment .' Mr.

Chairman, just let us go back to the Speech and just see exactly what was said, a very brief little paragraph, and it said, "The Canadian Confederation is a unique experiment", not merely an experiment now,'It is a unique experiment in governing a huge landmass, a small and widely dispersed population, and diverse heritages and cultures! It is an enriching experiment in which Newfoundland and Labrador is proud to participate'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: Now, Mr. Chairman, is that the meani?g that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) was putting across when he said the minister said, 'It is merely an experiment'? Was he implying that the minister said it was an enriching experiment, unique, combed in, patterned for our particular circumstances in this great country, this ~uge landmass, half a continent, a small population, 25 million people. if it is that, where a similar landmass, the United States, is 200 million', a similar landmass, in Russia, has • ~ _ _},.[l~- 250 million plus, a similar landmass, China, has one billion plus'.

Did he say I was implying that it is an experiment in people's living together from different languages, different backgrounds, different countries? Did he say that that was ~n the Budget Speech? No, Mr. Chairman 6 He tries to deceive, he tries to say 889

March 23, 1984 Tape 330 PK - 3 DR. COLLINS: things that were not in there, not meant, not implied, not intended. And that, of course, is not unusual. This is what we get all of the time. Mr. Chairman, the Canadian experiment is a nob~e experiment, but it is an experiment , all forms of government are an experiment. How do people live together? The point is you must have principles that you do not change,but then you change the terms under which you bring those principles into effect depending on time, circumstances, and people involved. And that is what we are asking about the Canadian experiment.

One of the most fundamental principles in the Canadian_Confederation is that the provinces con .trol natural resources. It is written in there. It was written in from the beginning. It was written in for a ver~ good reason: The only way the regions of Canada can develop 1 with so few people in this great land, 'this huge land,it i::; spread out all over the place, the only way they can develop is if they have control and mmagarent ability aver their natural resources. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR.

COLLINS: If you have control and managememn ability over our resources from 1,500 miles away, you cannot develop the economy down here for the benefit of the people who live here. You may want to . You might 1 with the best will in the world say I ;-ould like to, in ~ractical terms it is impossible to I would like to, but in practical terms ,.., it is impossible to do it. It is all very well to give resources to the --cent ·r-al government -in resources -co -cne small country, a little 890

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 331 MJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: like the United Kingdom where you can travel from one end to the other in a morning's train trip or whatever. You can do it there probably, you can run everything from Londonr and they do not even do that in the UK but you could do it, and they do it to a very large extent. In Canada you cannot do it, it is totally impossible. As I pointed out in the Budget Speech,we have got to learn from our history in this Province. We just cannot go from day to day repeating the same old mistakes,which is what the members opposite want us to do.

We have got to learn from our history. r.re have got to go back and see what happened? did it ~'lark? if it did not work let us try something else. As I pointed out in the Budget Speech, we gave the fishery up at Confederation. We totally gave it up at Confederation. It was the most blatant mistake made in the history -of this Pro,.ince when the people who brought us into Confederation gave the control of our fishery,which we had for 400 to 500 years before that, they gave it away. v!e were left without any control over the fishery once you got a few inches offshore, and that is where it all matters.

You cannot control an industry if your supply is in someone else's hands, and especiallv if your relationship to the world is ±n·: · someone alse' s hands and, of course 1 trade relationships are really in the hands of the federal government. Quite apart from that,we gave the fishery away when we gave the resource away. That was a ·"error of the most enormous magnitude. Now we have learned that, we know that. We know what has happened since that time. We know the trouble the fishery has been in.

Now people might say, 'Well,it would ·be j,ust as big a trouble if Newfoundlanders regained control.' We do not know that. That may or may not be true. Even if it 891

March 23; 1984 Tape No. 33~ MJ - 2 DR. COLLINS: is true we do not know it. We do know though - and this is quite clear, blatant, factual we do know it was a terrible disaster and a mess when we gave it away. Now, let us not repeat that disaster; let us at least give Newfoundland the chance to control its new resource, the offshore resource. At least give us the­ chance.

We know from past experience if we give it away it -will be a disaster,so at l~ast give Newfoundland a shot at the ball now. ~~d,of course,we are on good grounds because the experience in other provinces have shown that when they do control their natural resources,the people do prosper. So that is what we are saying. Let us be like the Albertans with their resources, like the Saskatchewan people with their resources, like the Ontario people with their resources, like the Quebec people with their resources. Let us use our resources that by all manner of as~essment are rightly ours.

By all manner of assessment - and I will just mention the legal thing in just a moment - by a_ll analyses they are rightly ours: Let us manage them for our benefit as other provinces have shown,when they managed theirs 1 they can get benefits out of them. ~~e know from experience if you give it to someone else they will not manage it to our benefit. Now what is more logical than that? Now just a small point on the legal case. This government is not saying that in legal te~ .s Canada owns the offshore. The Supreme Court said that. We have no quarrel with that decision.

We did not think that the case and we felt that on good, moral, historic, logical, reasonable grounds that we in fact did own them. However, the Supreme Court has now spoken and said; -'No. In legal terms Canada owns them.' That does not give Canada the moral, historic, sensible, reason fior owning it. 892

March 23, 1984 Tape No . 331 MJ - 3 DR . COLLINS : So ·what we are saying now is la\\·s are ma.de by men . I f the law is the one out of step, if the law says Canada owns it but every other lo.gical thought in man 's mind say that ~el.,rfoundland should O\orn it, and the precedents in the Constitution says that the Province should own it, well, let us change the thing that is out of step. Let us change the 893

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 332 DR. COLLINS: law. And that is where the Canadian Constitution is an experiment. It is when things are out of step , you do not throw your principles out the window ,and say, 'Alright, we will tear up the principle that provinces should own and control their resources'. You do not tear up that, that is a fundamental principle. You keep that. If the other thing is out of step , you change the law; you change the Constitution,in other words , because the Constitution is SD - 1 the great law. It is the law which bears up all the other laws.

And if that one is out of step, if that one gives rise to an injustice, gives rise to an inequity ,that is the one that must be changed. And that is the thrust of this government. Now, in the meantime, w·e know it will take a little while to bring that about, but we know that it will be brought about. We have full confidence in the way the Canadian nation thinks, we know that they will change that law. We are absolutely convinced, we are working hard to assist it and to bring about the earliest possible change. We know that it will be changed; however, it is going to take a bit of time.

In the meantime,our position as government is we are willing, anxious and able to sit down and reach an agreement so that things will go ahead~ . The only proviso we p~t in there, we are not going to get into a rotten agreema~t. We are not going to get into another fishery type of agreement where we ga ve awa y the resource and the whole thing fell down around our ears.

We are not going to get into an Upper Churchill-type of agreement where we were blackmailed into doing something ,and the people who were supposed to save us from such blackmail did not have the backbone 1 and did not have the common sense and did not have, you know, the perception. They saT>7 about three inches 1 if that far 1 from their noses. We are not going to get into that sort of rubbish. This goverrument says, lWe 894

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 332 SD - 2 DR. COLLINS: will reach an agreement. It is going to be a good agreement. It will do good for you and give you what you should get, it will do good for us and give us what we should get. We will reach that agreement, but in the meantime we are expectinq you to change that law, and we know you are going to change it because the Canadian people are a great ~eople. We are going to push vou to get it done at the earliest possible moment and we are obviously going to succeed.' That is just a few, quiet little words I wanted to say about the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr.

Neary) foolish remarks. I am sure that he will probably jump to his feet now and apologize for making them because I have shown them to be so ridiculous and so nonsensical. SOHE HON. l1EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CH.IURMAN (HcNicholas) : Order, please! DR. COLLINS: And if he does not want to do that, I will just accept it anyway because I do not want to embarrass him anyway. MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. COLLINS: Sm1E HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAiru .iJI.N: Mountains. MR. 1•7ARREN: Order, please! The hon. minister's time has elapsed. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Torngat Mr.

Chairman, just listening to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for the past ten minutes one would never believe that he would be the Minister of Finance for the Province that is in such a state of turmoil. All the minister did in his ten minute speaking was to lash back against members on this side of the House. Now, I would suggest to the hon. minister that if there w~s anything good in this budget, I am sure it would not be necessary to lash back at the membe~s on this side. First when the minister 895

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 332 so - 3 MR. WARREN: read his bud .get on Budget Day 1 one would believe first that it did not appear to be a very bad budget , but he made one statement .in his budget and he said that there are a few increases which will be detailed later . Mr. Chairman, those increases are the increases that will affect many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians more greatly than anv member realizes. They are going to get rid of the $5 fee for wards in the hospitals and they are going to tack it on the semi -private and private rooms.

They are going to increase the rate for birth certificates, for death certificates. So the message from the Minister of Finance · (.Dr. Collins). is telling all the women in the Province, 'No more babies', and telling everybody, 'Nobody else can die,' because if vou di~ it is going 896

March 23, 1984 Tape 333 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: nc one else shou~d die, because if you 1ie it is qoinq to cost you more. Andif you are going to have a baby, it is going to cost you more too. So that is the message that the minister~ave. In fact, the minister must have given a message to the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) because I have a feeling that the Minister of Public Works is going to have problems with carrying on the good busi­ ness on which he has been thriving for a number of years, because now a person is going to be scared to die because of the increase on death certificates!

In the estimates yesterday, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) was so testy! My han. colleague from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) brought up a story about a project out in his district and according to what the hon. member said and according to the response that was received from the Minister of Social Services, if there is any need for an investigation, there it is. And, ~~. Chairman, the minister was so testy! And then we brought up the subject of the four social workers in Labrador who were fired. The minister said, 'Well, they did not follow the law.' Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would be only too glad to take my seat and let the han. member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) get up and say, for the number of years that he was a social worker in this Province that he followed the law. Because, I could tell the han. member that he did not follow the law. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: And there is no other social worker in this Province who follows the law as stipulated by the Minister o£ Social Services, because it is impossible 897

March 23, 1984 Tape 333 EC - 2 MR . i-lARREN : to fo llow such a law . The law that the Minister of Social Services (Mr . Hickey) has in place is one law for one person and a different law for somebody else. And I could honestly say, Mr . Chairman, that- for the hon . !!!ember 111hen he ,.,as a social \•Tcrker, as it was for myself when I was a social worker years ago, it wa s impossible to follow the law as stipulated by the Minister of Social Services . The hon . member knows that when he was a social worker , he bent the rules .

I remember ,.,h en he was a soc ial worker that he came into this House of Assembly and sat in the gall ery for two or thre e days while a conference was on . I remember, ~I. cr.airman , all about that bon . gentleman . Now, Mr . Cha irman, the gove rn­ me nt have allotted, I thiru~, in their budget, $1 ~llion for airst ri 9s in Charlottetown, Paradise River and Bl ac k Tickle .

The minister got up and announced that in their budget, and 100 per cent of thi s money is coming from I the federal government . iolhy should the minister crow about money coming from the federal gov ernment \·lhen they do not even negotiate with them? 898

March 23, 1984, Tape 334, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: Roughly $11 million is estimated for the Confederation Building extension this year. I agree that the extension to Confederation Building when completed will be a great asset to this Province, but I am wondering what is going to happen to the Premier's buddies in town who are now renting office space to this government? What is going to happen to Atlantic Place? What is going to happen to the Murra~ Premises and others? Is the Premier still going to pay them for unoccupied space as he has done in the past? I am sure the hon. the member for Carbonear(Mr.

Peach) knows this is happening. He is on the Public Accounts Committee. He knows that this government, the government that he is part of has been paying for unoccupied space. We all know that. MR. STEWART: That is not true. MR. WARREN: That is true. The hon. the member for Fortune - Herrnitage(Mr. Stewart), he knows that we have been paying for unoccupied space in the Murray Premises. And who owns the Murray Premises? The bagman for the P. c. Party. That is who owns the Murray Premises. MR. NEARY: Right on!' The fellow who doles the cheques out to the Premier. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, what are we going to do?

Let us try to cut corners in the right place. I believe this Minister of Social Services(Mr. Hickey) said on CBC radio.this mo~ning that he does not know what his social workers are up to, he does not know what directives are going out to individuals. Surely goodness if a directive goes out to one group of people in the Province the same directive should not appl7 to everybody. I am sure that an administrator down on the Burin Peninsula would not send out the same directive that an 699

_March 23, 1984, Tape 334, Page 2 --.apb MR. WARREN: individual down in Milltown would send out to the Conne River Indians. I am sure the administrator in Clarenville would not do it. But all of a sudden this administrator was attacking through the minister, telling the native people what to do and what not to do. Mr. Chairman, it is amazing how this government can say that everybody should be treated equally. The Premier and the member for St. John's East(Mr. Marshall), all they say is that we should have equal opportunities in Canada, and at the same time, the Minister of Social Services(Mr.

Hickey) has one regulation for one group o£ people in this Province and another regulation for another group. Mr. Chairman, the han. the member for Fortune -Hermitage(Mr. Stewart) wanted a definition of a P.C.bagman. Mr. Chairman, I am sure the han. member knows that when the next election is called the man who has a lot to do with the Murray Premises will be able to pass out the dough to him - MR. NEARY: Do not forget the convention centre. MR. WARREN: And the convention centre - will be able to pass out many dollars, whether it is under the table or over the table, and that is what I mean by a bagman. MR.

STEWART: Who is that. MR. NEARY: The one who passed the cheques over to the Premier from (inaudible) . MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, it is unreal that we can have a government today seeing people suffering while at the same time we ha'I.Le monies being passed over to individuals in this Province for space that is still unoccupied. 900

March 23, 1984 Tape 335 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Chairman, I think it is ridiculous! I think the most ironic thing about this whole budget and the last year's budget is that in the past twelve months - MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. HR. I'IARREN : SOME HON. HE!IBERS : AN HON . ~E'!ffiER: MR. DINN: MR. CHAIRMAN: and Manpower. MR. DINN: By leave, Sir? By leave. No, he is not making any sense anyway. Hr. Chairman. The hon. the r:ini:::;ter of Lcbour Yes, the hon. member has another ten minutes after I am finished, Mr. Chairman.

I just wanted to get up and say a few words about what basically is happening in this debate. We are supposed to be discussing Interim Supply and the hon. members are not talking about Interim Supply at all. They are talking about the Minister of Social Services (Hr. Hic~~ey) and the fact that he is discriminating. I mean, it is the same old balderdash they get on with every day, every month, every year in this House of Assembly. It is the Catholics against the Protestants, the Indians against the whites, the people in St. John's against the people outside St.

John's, trying to get these foolish little arguments going, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) said it right, for cheap political points. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) got up and talked about the offshore and how that agreement that Mr. Chretien had on the· table was such a good agreement,that we had some say in the manage­ ment. And what did the Minister of Energy (:t;~.r; ·Marshall) get up and tell him point blank? Yes, they had three and three on the board but who made the ultimate decision? 901

March 23, 1984 Tape 335 EC - 2 AN HON . !1E!1BER: The federal minister. MR. DINN: The federal minister. I mean, is that what he is talking about joint management of a resource? Who wo~ld the employees of this Crown corpor­ ation be paid by? - The government in Ottawa. Is this what we are talking about? Is this joint management? HR. SD-ll-1S: Certainly not. MR. DINN: Is this 'He '\vho pays the piper calls the tune'? And what are they going to pay these employees on? They are going to pay them out of what they get out of Hibernia.

They are going to take our money out of our pockets and they are going to give it to their employees so that they can decide which way they want the resource developed. And if they do not do it right then, the federal minister will look at the decision and say, 'I do not like that. I am going to change that now because that is not exactly the '\'lay we want it. We are going to do it our '-'lay. ' So, you know, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) - l1..~. TOBIN: Just his cover up. MR. DINN: Yes. The Member for LaPoile gets up and, I mean, you would think he would make some sense sometime.

If he is not going to talk about the estimates, if he is not going to question ministers on this side about what they are spending these moneys for, then the least he can do, the least people in this Province expect - the gentleman is the longest serving member of this House of Assembly. He knows no rules of the House yet and he gets up in the House and makes these foolish statements about what Mr. Chretien is going to do. He is an apologist for Mr. Chretien. He used to be an apologist for four or five other 'Johns', now he is an apologist for Mr. Chretien. 902

Mqrch 23, 1984 Tape 335 EC - 3 ·;;m • .DINNf And then the Member for Torngat Mountains (.,!1r. l'l'arren) gets up and talks about social as ·sistance. Mr. Chairman, it has been a pre- requisite of this government that before any person serves as Minister ' of Municipal Affairs in this Province that he read the ~~ifflin report on how not to be Minister of Social Services. That is what they do. They have to do that. That is a prerequisite to beco::".:Lng ~1inister of Social Services in this Province. Because you have to know how not to do things and that is how not to do · them. There is a book written on it, Mr.

Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, I got up this morning in this House of Assembly and talked about the offshore. And the han. member got up and, you know, he - we are trying to get some jobs for Newfoundlanders in the offshore. Surely, nobody can be against that. Is there any ~an . in this Province against that? ·HR. · TOBIN: Oh, yes, t~ere is. MR. DINN: I am not talking about the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). Is there any man in this Province who would stand up against something like that? Mr.

Chairman, right now in the offshore,and the onshore directly related to the offshore, we have in Newfoundland 1,487 jobs, nothing to sneeze at! MR . SIMrl!S : Certainly not! MR. DINN: Three times Come By Chance, Mr. Chairman,and, added to that, 560 Newfoundlanders who started out here in our offshore, because of our local preference regulations, 903

March 23, 1984, Tape 336, Page l -- apb MR. Ditm: who started out in our offshore are now working throughout the world. They are working off Nova Scotia, they are working in the North Sea, they are working in the Indian Ocean, 560 of them. MR. DAWE: Why are they working now? What is the reason? Is it that the federal government allowed them to work? MR. DINN: Oh certainly. Oh certainly.

Well, they had a big hullabaloo here a couple of years ago because we had something like 8,000 people registered for the offshore and one of the companies advertised in the papers that they had positions available for the Discoverer Seven Seas off­ shore, they had some ninety positions available, and the Newfoundlanders who were registered went in to those offices attempting to get the jobs and, of course, all their .:xperience , was laid out there, and we had two people from Alberta who carne down - they were originally from Nova Scotia - here and there were something like 600 people in the office of this company, in the office or waiting downstairs to try to get into the office to apply for these jobs, and lo and behold the two Nova Scotians - I mean, I do not blame them, they are looking for jobs like any other Canadian - walked down and they walked up to the fromt of the line, pushed everybody aside and said, Look, we just got a ride from Alberta, we were promised jobs down here by our federal member - the federal member apparently called and said, Do it this way.

But apparently they were called and told to go to Newfoundland, there were two jobs waiting for them. They walked down and they walked up to the front of the line. They never apologized or anything, they bulldozed their way in, walked up the the front of the line and said, We are here, we are ready, and what happened? 904

March 23, 1984, Tape 336, Page 2 -- apb MR. DAWE: That is not true. That did not happen. A bunch of Liberals. MR. DINN: What happened because of that? Well, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), and hon. gentlemen opposite got up in this House and accused this House of discriminating against other Canadians. Now, that is what I have been accused of. I do not force companies. I do not believe I have ever called a company to ask them to get John Jones a job. MR. NEARY: You send letters, you do not even let them approach you in conversation. MR.

DINN: The hon. member should read his own book about how he o~erated as a minister. I do not even consider his interruptions as interruptions. Mr. Chairman, I want to deal with the meat of what is going on here in the Province. Two gentlemen carne from Alberta, because they were a little tired, they were not close enough to their own homes in Musgrave, Nova Scotia, and they carne down here and pushed all the Newfoundlanders aside and walked up to the head of the line and because the company said to them, Well, now, I mean, you are going to have to take your turn.

With all due respect to your federal fellow, we have people here who have been working in the offshore, who are qualified, who have more experience than you. Gerry Dinn did not call the company and say, You will hire these Newfoundlanders or else: I did not have to do that. The company said, We have people here who are qualified, who worked in the Beaufort Sea, who worked in the North Sea, who are drillers,who took eight years to become drillers. You people have worked on land rigs, you know nothing about the ocean. we cannot hire you. And what did they do?

Well, they went back to their· member and complained, they sent their little notes 905

March 23, 1984, Tape 336, Page 3 -- apb MR. DINN: to the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) and others, and they got up in this House condemning this government for discriminating against Canadians. We have a 21 per cent unemployment rate in this Province and we are discriminating because we supply information to companies that work in the offshore so they can see that Newfoundlanders have qualifications and, Please, have a look at them and see if you can find posi tio .ns in the offshore for these people who have all the qualifications necessary to work in the offshore. I got up this .morning, Mr.

Chairman, and I made a Ministerial Statement about how we were going to continue to supply this information to the companies. Why would I do that? Why would I make that Ministerial Statement this morning? Because I have gotten calls since the Supreme Court made its decision. Contrary to the fact that companies do not want to have anything imposed upon them, they want the information. I have gotten fifteen calls from fifteen - is the hon. member listening? I want him to get this, this is good information. MR. NEARY: How many? MR. DINN: Twelve to fifteen.

I am not sure of the exact count, but twelve to fifteen companies, foreign companies, different companies that work in the offshore and work onshore directly related to the offshore, f~fteen companies have called me and said, Mr. Minister, surely because of this silly decision, this decision that has been made, 906

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 337 PK - 1 MR. DINN: you are not going to stop supplying information. It is the best information that we get anywhere in the world. We can actually look at a book and say that this gentleman is a driller, John Jones is a driller and he worked four years in the North Sea on these different rigs. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. DINN: I was just getting into full flight, but I will have another opportunity, Mr. Chairman. MR. CALLAN: Yes, you will. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. WARREN: MR. CALLAN: from Fort MacMurray. MR.

WARREN: The han. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Chairman, Go out and call -some people back I am amazed the government would stoop so low as to pick an individual such as this to speak on interim supply. I am ·Surprised that they would go so low in the barrel to get this kind of a minister who saw Labrador City practically become a ghost town. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: Government employees in this Province having to sacrifice, and that is the best they have to offer. However, to go back to what I was speaking about earlier, what an hypocrisy!

In this budget there is money provided for the completion of the Arts and Culture Centre in Labrador City. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know where the priorities of this government are. I believe the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), in all due respect, I believe he is listening attentively and I believe he is of the same opinion as I am riow. MR. MORGAN: What are you talking about? 907

March 23, 1984 Tape 337 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: I can tell from the look on the minister's face that he is concerned too. Why would this government spend $2 million on an Arts and Culture Centre in LabradorCi ty /v~abush when there are so many other needs in this Provi~ce? And not only that , Mr. Chairman, instead of putting a hold on the Central Newfoundland Hospital, which they have done, surely goodness the least thing they could have done was put a hold on the Arts and Culture Centre for Iabrador City because they have already lost about 6, 000 people in the past year.

The population is not there to waFrant an Arts and Culture Centre~In Labrador City/Wabush, with all due respec-: to the peop _~e there, they have lost 5, 000 or 6,000 people, they are going to lose more in the years to come, and here we are going to have a monstrosity of a building there that is going to cost the government thousands and thousands of dollars to maintain.

So instead of putting a lid on the completion of the renovations at -the Central Newfoundland Hospital in Grand Falls where it is needed, where the population is stable and increasing 1 there should have been a lid put on the Arts and Culture Centre for Labrador City. Another concern, Mr. Chairman, although it is not spelled out in the budget. HR. TOBIN: What about my district? MR. WARREN: What about the han. member's district? I would say, Mr. Chairman, God bless Ottawa~ God bless Ottawa! MR. TOBIN: For what? MR. WARREN: For what? For an $8 million ferry that is going to be built in Marystown.

And where did all - .'1R. TOBIN: MR. MORGAN: 908 They _are not~ buj._lding- the ferry _. That is not federal money. ;

March 23 , 1984 Tape 337 PK - 3 MR . WARREN: Hold on now, hold on now! Ju st relax . Do not get too excited ! \'lhere did all of t:he money come from that kept the Mary stown Shipyard in operation from the beginning? Where did it come from ? SOME HON . M.El.'1BERS : Ob, oh! MR . WARREN: No, way . How many dollars, how many mi llions of dollars hav e gone into th e Marystown Shipyard from the federal government ? And who built the Marysto wn Shipyard , Mr . Chairman? 909

March 23, 1984, Tape 338, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: Was it this government? Was it this government that built the Marystown Shipyard? Was it federal money? MR. TOBIN: Good Tory money. MR. WARREN: Now, I finall y get the han. gentleman to admit that there would be no ferries built this year if it were not for the federal government in Ottawa. So, Mr. Chairman, I should advise the han. member that his days in -the House are numbered. His days in this han. House are numbered. I would venture to say that if he is not careful, the member Pat Canning beat som~time ago, he may be back to challenge the han. member.

I can also show the han. member excerpts from Hansard where the han. member praised the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry). In his second speech in this House he said the member for Mount Scio was the best member that was ever down on the Burin Peninsula. So he will take these little trips down to Marystown, and Burin, and Rushoon, and Baine Harbour, and Boat Harbour, he will take these little trips down there and he will remind the han. member that he is only passing through. MR. TOBIN: I will tell you something, I have no worries about anyone over there running in Burin - Placentia West next time. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Chairman, the member's big advantage in the last election was that he was a social worker. He went directly into politics from there and the Minister of Social Services(Mr. Hickey) had these little blue slips that went out to his district and right away everybody thought the blue slips came from the candidate instead of from the han. minister, and that is why he was elected. He was elected because of the little blue slips. 910

March 23, 1984, Tape 338, Page 2 -- apb AN HON. MEMBER: pink slips? MR. WARREN: Where did you get your Mr. Chairman, it is amazing. Years ago when people would come in from around the bay - MR. TOBIN: MR. WARREN: What about the hospital? Mr. Chairman, it is terrible listening to this hon. gentleman. Could you ask him to be quiet? MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): Order, please! MR. WARREN: the hospital? Mr. Chairman, what about If ever a group of people deserved a hospital it is the people on the Burin Peninsula. MR. TOBIN: That is right. MR. WARREN: Do not say anything else to me. The reason I say that, Mr.

Chairman, in all due . respect, is ~hat I had the opportunity of visiting the Burin hospital in 1959, when the hon. member was still wearing diapers, and at that time the Burin hospital was a disgrace. One thing this government has done that has been positive for the Burin Peninsula is turn the sod for the new hospital. I think that is a plus and I think the people should be proud that the former hon. member for Placentia west(Mr. Barry) has time and time again written to the Minister of Health(Mr. House) saying, We need a new hospital down there.

It was only after the members changed down. there that the government decided to go ahead. 1979 and the budget of 1980? MR. TOBIN: MR. WARREN: Remember the budget of 1972 and 1975. Yes, that is right. The hon. member for Mount Scio, when he was there, it was promised then. So, Mr. Chairman, what happens is if you are a Tory in a Tory Government you will get a hospital. 911

March 23, 1984, Tape 338, Page 3 -- apb MR . TOBIN : That is not true. There are a number of Tories who did not get a hospital . MR. MATTHEWS : Port aux Basques got a hospital and they have never voted Tory . MR. NEARY : What a member ! What a member ! MR. WARREN: Mr . Chairman, the fo rtunate thing about it is the people on the Burin Peninsula will have a hospital, but I have a funny feeling that one of the first patients may 912

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 339 MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: be the member. I apologize, the member is sort of getting me off the track. MR. TOBIN: Tell us about Cow Head now. MR. WARREN: Hr. Chairman, no,I am not going to speak about Cow Head at all because Cow Head completely depends on a settlement on the offshore and as long as this government is in powe~the!e is not going to be any settlement on the offshore. Another reason, Mr. Chairman, is that Mr. Mulroney in Ottawa will not form the next government. Mr.

Chairman, let us face it, it is going to be John Turner, or John Munro, or Chretien 1 or MacGuigan·, or Roberts or Coutts.You know there are about seven or eight who could be more powerful leaders than Mr. Mulroney or Hr. Crosbie could ever be. MR. TOBIN: Who are you supporting? MR. WARREN: Who am I supporting? I wish to advise the han. member I will be supporting on the first ballot the person whom I think will be the best Prime Minister of Canada. Now that is who I am going to be supporting on the first ballot. And, Nr.

Chairman, in about another ten days,if the han. member asks me the question 1 I am sure I will be able to answer him and I will even give him my answer . But I want to advise you that I am not going to jump on the bandwagon right away, I am not going to wait until we get the best deal for Newfoundland,because I think w~ are going to get the best deal for Newfoundland regardless of who the Prime Minister is. MR. CH.AIRMtm (A ylward) : elapsed . again. MR. WARREN: Order, please! The han. the member's time has By leave. 913

March 23, 1984 Tape No. 339 MJ - 2 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Does the han. member have leave to continue? SOME HON. r<~BMBERS : Yes . 1"1R. TOBIN: No. MR . CHAI ID 1AN : i)id I hear a no. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, in the absense of anybody MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman. MR . MARSHALL : I will yield to the han. the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), Hr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I MR. NEARY: This is not a hockey game as I indicated the other day.