Volume3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNl)LAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, DECEMBER 3, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES,M. RUSSELL Number 81 , .

December 3, 10.74 The House met at 3·00. P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. >!R. SPr:.AKF.R: Order, please! Tane 183?. PK - 1 MR. SPF..AKER: ANS"WERS TO QESTIONS FOR HHICH NOT.ICT HAS BFEN GIVFN The Hon. }linister of Transportation and Communications. !!ON. J. G. ROHSSF.AU ("fH!ISTE~ OF TRANSPORTATION A!\'D CQM}IITNICATIONS) · I have a couple of answers here, ~'r. Speaker. Yesterday the honourahle Member for Fogo aslrnd me ahout the sanding on Fogo and I undertook to get the answer for him today. ,: have ;nst one copy of :It.

I will read the answer for the record althouph the honourable member is not in his seat and will send him a copy of this. 1naudihle. A'•l Hn•,1. Hr·rnF .R: iq. ll.OllSSEAU, nJ,! So T will send him a copy of this any way when I get it. The l'ogo Island J;>oad situation of sand. The report· I have is that t11ere is no sancl availarle to this department on Fogo Island. We have searched very extensively for sources on the island but have not yet been successful.

"e have carried out our w:lnter maintenance for the nast ti,,o year srecificallv without the henefit of s>lnd on rravel roads recause we do not sand the roadR. The imnlications are that vehicles such as school buses may he required to use tire chanpes on occasions. The rrohlem of :l.c inp is cam;ed hy drafoage prorl ems. We have started this year in an attempt to remove these prohlems. We are also investigating methods of -f.m.,orting sand to the island.

The nrohlem, of course, with import­ inn: sand to the island is that it is a very expensive pronosition, the trans.,ort:lng of sand to the island by conventional means, cost~ approximatley ~Sri.nn ner ton and that is the estimate of the department. There was ,mother question, \fr. Sneaker, that I was p;iven notice of yesterday regardin~ the snow clearing equipment in Lahrador South by the honourahl,;, ~•emher for Labrador South. The answer to that queRtion, I will get a co~y of this for the honourable member.

The following departmental eou1pment is stationed in Labrador South, one grader, two front end loaders, ti-ro bulldozers and nio Rand trucks. All the equipment is in good operating condition with the exception of one sand truck which is do"m for minor repa:lrs. Pe have a new grader on order that will replace the existing grader some time 7433

December 3, 1974 Tape 1832 PK - 2 before next spring, as soon as it is received, In the event that our equipment breaks down or the conditions are such that our equipment cannot handle the snow clearing problemJthere are several machi .nes in Labrador South that can he rented. OPAL QUESTIONS "!R. SPEAKER: The honourable ~ember for St. Barhe North. HR. F. B. R.OWE: "r. Speaker, I 'lave a <1uestion for the Hon. Hin is ter of Municipal Jl.ffairs and Rousing or Public Works or is the Premier go:lng to be in his seat this afternoon? AN HON. MIDH\F.R: }1o, he •Till he out. HP .• F, B.

RO'(.JF: N:av, well whi.chever minister would like to answer the ouesti.on, Mr, ~oeaker. Is there any truth to the possibility that the government have turned from Tri.zec to going to }!r. Craig n9hhin for additional office snace for the Confederation Building? "R. SPFAKF.R: The Hon. Minister of Public Wor1,s and Ser.vices. Pm1 • lW .• T. FARR.FU ('HNISTEP OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SFPVIrFS): I would like to answer that question for the 'Member for St. Barbe North. The Trizec negotiations have not been terminated, number one. They are still on-goi.ng. •:ro agreements have heen reached but they are still on-p,oinii;.

We as],ed for nronosals for snace because we are desperate for snace at the nresent time, even the Opposition needs snace very badly. We are tryfng to do our best to facilitate every~ody. Pe have government deoartments,and nartial deoartments all over the City. We need some space, a block of space as soon as possible, We asked for proposals on this from many people, of course, we like to give a chance to everybody to have an opnortunity to bid on this. We did receive a proposal from 'ir, Dobbin for up to 100,000 square feet of office space.

It is estimated by our snace consultant that we will need approximately 400,000 square feet l-y 1980. We received proposals as I said and the one which looked the best in the sight of my officials was this proposal - AN TIO"'l. MEMBFR: Inaudible. DR. FARRELL: The Dobbin proposal - to have this immediate space which is 7434

December 3, 1974 Tape 1832 PK - 3 ava:1.lable or should be available in nine montJ-s or twelve months because we are actually in very, very bad condition as far as space is concerned. That :Is where it is at this time, 7430

December 3, 1974. Tape 1833 RH - 1 Mr. Speaker, so the government has entered into an agreement with Dohbin interest. An agreement has been signed? DR. FARRELL: No, subject to approval of building plans and the lease agreement, Your Honour. MR. ROWE: Is the government still negotiating with Trizec than, Mr. Speaker? DR. FARRELL: Yes, Sir. MR. ROWE: Does the honourable Leader of the Opposition want to carry on? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I have a further supplementary: Could the minister indicate to the House please when the tenders were called?

I am not sure if tender is the word. When were the approaches made, to whom they were made and when the responses were received and when award of the contract to whatever extent a contract now exists, whenever that was made? Would he also undertake to table the relevant correspondance? DR. FARRELL: Sir, I cannot, Your Honour, answer all of these at the present moment but 1 will certainly obtain this information for the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the honourable member, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think he dealt with the second part of my question.

Would the minister undertake to table the letters that went out or copies of them and the copies of the letters, to whom, well, when we see them then we will know whom they went and copies of the proposals? There is a lot of quite genuine concern and I am not trying to make politics out of it, a lot of genuine concern about the finagling over Trizec and over Dobbin and the whole business and a lot of people would have their minds set at rest if the correspondence could be tabled and looked at. DR. FARRELL: Well, I can answer the second one because I took over this.

The second part of the honourable member's question was it went to Atlantic Place, Mr. Dobbin, Lundrigan's and Seaboard. Now, the exact date I do not know because I do not have it on hand right now. to Secondly, I do not like the word finagling. There is no finagling going on. This is quite a common practice. The Federal Government has rented space all over this city in a similiar manner. These were proposals 743t>

Decewher 3, 1974. Tape 1833 RH - 2 which went out and were received, it was the best, it was looked at because of the urgency of getting some immediate space. That is exactly where it is. MR. ROBERTS: Would the minister table the correspondence because our people think there is something wrong with this. D~ FARRELL: Oh, yes, we would be delighted. The proposal, the actual letter of proposa1? ~- ROBERTS: Four proposals. DR. FARRELL: Three were received. One did not bother to accept the proposal. Yes, Sir? ~R. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in the absense of the Premier, T would like to 11ddress a question to the honourable the House Leader. A couple of days ago thP Premier said that there were a trE!Tlendous number of Protest sayings with respect to redistribution on the second and final report; Would the House Leader he prepared to tahle all the letters and communi­ cations of protest against the last report of the commission on redistri­ bution? MR. W. MA_BSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that should properly be addressed to the Hon. the Premier.

I think he said many of the proposal protests were verbal and Tam quite sure the honourable Premier today is incapacitated. He is home with the flu and a cold and I am quite sure that when he gets back the honourable member can address his question to him. They do not happen to be in my files so I cannot give the answer to the honourable member. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the honourable the Minister of Education. !low will the threat of the servinP, of an injunction against the Regional College in Corner Brook affect the completion date for the building of that college? MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I understood the question correctly: How will the serving of a writ of injunction affect the completion date of the college? It should not affect it at all. The people who are at the contract are bound to have it completed by a certain date and it should not affect that date at all. 1431

December 3, 1974. Tape 1833 RH - 3 MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: IYben is the date of completion for the Region al College? !ill. OTTENHEl"iER: It is sometime in August, 1975, some date in August of 1975. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, another supplementary question co the Minister of Education: Is there any truth to the rumor that there is difficulty in finding teachin g staff for the Regional College in Corner Brook? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, as the honourable J!;entleman knows, 7438

necemhPr 3, 1Q74 Tape 1834 PK - 1 the gover11J11ent does not recruit a staff for the ~eg:lonal College, thev are members of the Facultv of Memorial. They do tlie recruiting. We are n•allv not involver! at all. Our involvement naturally is in the House's vote.

The onerat:lnP, grant to the 1Tn1.vers:ltv hut the recruitment of staff, as a povernment or as a department are not involver!. 1 personally am not involved with the recruiting of st;iff for the TTnivers:ltv either at Corner llroo}: or elsewhere hut 1 do understand from genera 1 conversation that one of the prohlems has been, I th:lnv thi.s :Is the essent-f.al orohlem, housing for staff. }"R. F. RO'TE: So there :Is a nro~lem. MP.. OTTF.Nl!EI)1F.R: llo, T would sav it was a prohlem or not a ;::ro~lem as I am saving the P,overnment does not recruit for the l'niversitv, We do not advertise for posts.

Pe do not interview an1'l1icants. We do not annoint. We do not ass:IP.n at the Universitv in this respect, and this is c1n academ-f.c area of recruitment of staff, worhi ,iutonomousl v under the l;iw which create5 the ~emori.al l'n1versity Act and unrler the lloarrl of "egents. So as J say, has:lcally it is a question Phich should he directed to the 11niversity. I do know thi5 that the University has experienced to date some difficultv in getting housing for staff. l,.-P .• F. POWE: Another nuestion for the ":ln:lster of 'F'.ducation, Mr. Speaker.

Has the government decided the nature of that college, is it to he an arm of the T1niversi tv or a comm11n:I ty college or what? As far as 1 can understanrl nm,,, Mr. Spealrf'r, it is simnly P,Oing to be an am of the Tlnivers:ltv whf'rf'as T understood it :Is poing to he more of a communitv college type of an institution. i"R. OTTFNHEJ"l-!ER: '1r. Sneaker, if the honourable p;entleman is ilUfferinP, under that imprei:sion then he is quite wrong. I will repeat ap;ajn what t!1e general puroose and mandate of the Regional College at Corner Rrook will he.

I am not putting these in any order of priority or order of hierarchyJ just in order. They will provide the first two years of degrf'e programmes for those who wish - they will nrovide the first year obviously for those who wish. They will in all probahilitv provic1e a terminal two year progral'llTle for those who wish - quite apart from that thev will have an arranp;ement of 7439

December 3, 1974 Tape 1834 PK - 2 extension courses, some of them geared to employment, some of them geared to cultural matters, some of them geared to a wide variety of areas. They will also be involved in what is generally taken under the general topic of community development. They will also be having a wide variety of various adult programmes.

The University has also been discussing with the College of Trades and Technology and the Colle~e of Fisheries the various avenues of mutual co-operation there whereby students who will be seeking accreditation or a certificate or a diploma from one of those colleges, of Trades and Technology, from the College of Fisheries may do some of their work at the Regional College in Corner Brook. So the Regional College will therefore he serving a broad spectrum not only of educational needs but of social economic needs as well. MR.. F. ROWE : >{r.

Sneaker, in the absence of the Premier, I will ask a question of the honourable the House Leader. In view of the fact that trere •-•as an hour long programme last night on CJON, I think the honoural-le memr-er recognizes the programme that I am referring to. There were no credits or acknowledgements given to that particular programme. Is this a public affairs programme or who finances it? noes the government finance it? Does the ,:,arty finance it or what? AN HON. J·fF.1--!BER : ~. F. ROWF.: Inaudible. What is wrong? Do not he so touchy. Hiding something, 'fr. Speaker? AN HON. MP!BF.R: Inaudible.

Answer the auestion. MR. F. ROWE: vr . ~neayer, you know I am sincere when I ask this question. There were no credits, ho acknowledgements given at the beginning nor the end of this particular programme. Who paid fnT this, the government? Did the government pay for it? Did the P.C. Party pay for it? Was it out of the education budget? 0ut of the transportation budget or what? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaud;f.ble. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! tl_R. ROBERTS: Yes, the Liberals will nay for it ••••• }ffi • SPEAKER: Order, please! I am not so sure that the ~uestion is in order.

I think it is one that the information could he obtained from outside of the 7440

December 3, 1974 Tape 1R34 PK - 3 legislature, namely; to the station concerned. !-IR. F, ROWE: Would the 7441

December 3, 1974. Tape 1835 honourable the House Leader undertake to table the information. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Someone over there must know. RH - 1 MR. MARSHALL:How am I supposed to know where CJON get payment of their accounts. I am not a partner of CJON. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. '1R. SPEAK.ER: The honourable member for Labrador South. MR. M. l'I.ARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Minister of Transportation of Communications.

With regard to the information he just gave regarding the complement of equipment at the depot at L'Anse­ au-Loup, I wonder if he could tell the House how it is that on the first snowfall of the season which occurred last week, which was a relatively minor snowfall at that, that certain schools had to be closed because the highways equipment was not ready to clear the roads. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. J. ROUSSEAU: The honourable minister cannot give him the answer to the question. I will have to check that out. I was out of town.

The only thing I could think was that it was a heavy snowfall and of course the equipment might have been taxed. I do not know but I certainly will undertake to check out the answer and give the honourable member a reply. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing could explain to the House what procedure one has to go through to obtain a NIP project in his community? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. B. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, there is an agreement entered into each year with CMHC and the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing whereby an allotment of money is transferred from the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation to the Province. After that allotment of money has been made it is incumbent on the municipality or local government agency to apply to obtain some of that allotment. Then after they apply for some of that allotment of money they have to supply the details, surveys and so on of the specific area within the jurisdiction of that council and when those 7442

December 3, 1974. Tape 1835 RH - 2 specifications are submitted to CMHC they approve or reject them and if they approve them the project proceeds. If they reject them of course the project does not. Immediately upon the approval of such a NIP programme the municipality automatically qualifies for the RAP programme which simultaneously goes along with the NIP programme. ~R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I assume then in the case of the City of St. John's the initiative would have to be taken by the City of 8t. John's and if so, would the minister inform the House if the City of St.

John's has undertaken to make an application for a NIP project. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I think this year the application for NIP funds from the city council was made for the completion of the Urban Renewal Scheme at Mundy Pond. To my knowledge which is not all that extensive in this field as yet, no other application besides that one was forthcoming. This could primarily be due to the fact that most of the funds had been expended from that agreement upon the allocation to the Mundy Pond Urban Renewal Scheme. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that the City of St.

John's has emoloyed the services of community planners to put together a NIP proiect and are in the process of doing so at the present time? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that they are in the process of oreparin2 anvthing for allocation of funds from NIP. I hope and trust that they are so that when our agreement which we are now negotiating this hour,I would say.and for the next several days with CMIIC towards a programme for next year that they will be ready to take advantage of all of the funds that can be given to the city. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the initiative has to be taken by the municipality, would the minister tell the House what this meeting tonight is in aid of? Is it a P.C. Party meeting? Just what is the purpose of the meeting? "ffi. 'PECK'F'OJ!.D: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, it is an attempt by the honourable member for St. John's East to fully inform,as he should and as is hjs resnonsibiliry as a member for that area, of the various progra111D1es 7443

December 3, 1974. Tape 1835 RH - 3 that are available to individuals and constituents of his so that 7444

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1836 Pagel - MW They would be better informed to agitate for sufficient funds to assist them in improving. their housing conditions in the area in which they live. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is this an informational m~eting or does the minister, who is sponsoring this meeting, expect to see a community group formed to make sn application for a NIP project? MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the meeting is intended strictly to inform his constituents of the various programmes that are available. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware,if it is purely just to inform his constituents, that St. John's East, M. P., James McGrath, will be in attendance and officials of the provincial government and CMHC will be in attendance? If so, is the minister aware of this, Sir1 Is the minister also aware that the sponsoring body, the municipality, the City of St. John's, has not been invited to attend that meeting?. MR. PECKFORD: I am not aware, Mr. Speaker, of who is invited or who is not invited. I am only aware that a meeting is taking place to inform the constituents of St.

John's East of what programmes are available and what programmes they can avail of in the coming year. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would assume then from the minister's answers, that no matter what happens, it is the City of St, John's who has to make the application to take advantage of the NIP programme, the City of St, John's, not the Minister without Portfolio? MR. PECKFORD: I do not think there was ever any intention to indicate or to imply or to deduce from any comments made or advertisements in the paper that it would be the member in a given area who would apply for NIP funds.

It is true that the municipality has to apply after the allotment from the federal to the provincial government. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Sir, You just shot down the Minister without Portfolio. 7445

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1836 Page 2 MR. NEARY: I wonder if the Minister of Tourism could inform the House how many thousand Silver Anniversary Confederation Calenders were dumped in Robin Hood Bay? AN HON. MEMBER: The Hon. Minister of Tourism is not in. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to inform the Hon. Member for Bell Island that the Hon. Minister of Tourism, I do not think, is in his place. MR. NEARY: "Stomping Tom" is not here today, is he? MR. THOMS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: There is a job to keep up with them these days, Sir. MR. THOMS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: "Morgan is publicity hungry," says Young.

We will not ask any questions on that. MR. SPSAKER: MR. NEARY: today - MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Order please! Mr. Speaker, there are so few ministers in their seats Order please! Just a second now, Sir, I am coming - do not lose your patience - I am coming to my old buddy there, who is going to travel across the Tickle with me tonight to Bell Island. MR. ROBERT: He does not mind bringing him over but it is bringing him back that will get the objections. MR. NEARY: He will not be going on the new ferry tonight, I can tell you that, Sir.

Sir, we hear reports these days that the gasoline market in Eastern Canada is glutted and there is a little bit of - MR. CROSBIE: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. CROSBIE: This is just ridiculous. This is not a question. The honourable gentleman hears reports that the market is getting glutted! That is not a question. It just shows the honourable gentleman's confusion. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of misorder, thrown in by the gentleman from St. John's West, all that my - boy, he just does not like being number two. Re has been number two all his life and he will go on 7446

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1836 Page 3 being number two. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may 5l'eak to the alleged point of order, raised by the alleged gen tleman. from. St. John's West, all that my colleague is doing - MR . CROSBIE: Withdraw: MR. :ROBERTS: MR . CROSBIE: Withdraw what? Whatever he said. MR. ROBERTS: If the honourable gentleman does not allege he is a gentleman, then I, Sir, will not allege it. If I am not allowed to call the honourable gentleman a (blank), I do not call him a (blank). That is simple. Now the point of order made by the gentleman from St. John's West had no validi ty as he full well knew.

All that my colleague is doing is merely prefacing his remarks with a very brief prefatory introduction so that the honourable gentleman from Placentia West , the ~inis cer of Mines a:nd Ener gy, will be able to comprehend the question and possibly, hopefully, even to answer. That may be too much to expect. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: I have to agree that I do not think it is really a point of order. I am sure the honourah1-e lllelllbez: for Bell Island is aware chat he should not have any long

preambles to hiil questions. MR. NEARY: It was not very long. All I said that the gasoline market is glut •ted, Sir. That is not very long. Could the minister tell us, in his opinion, if there will be a reduction 1.n gasoline prices in 7447

Tape 1~37 rn-1 Newfound] ,md a,i thtc n,sul t of tht i~asol ine market being ,;l ut te~ in Jsualern Canada a1< r<er,orted in the press in the last couple of days. HON. 1..D. llAP.HY _Q!l!;ISTER OF J-11:~ES AND EKl~R.r;YJ_: _ '~r. Speaker, I have to <'onfe~e that I am glutted with remarv.s such aa that made by the honourable member from Bonaviata ~lorth there a moment ago. AN J!O_l'!_O_U_RA_llJ,_E ~E~E_P~=- T11lte the candy out of your mouth so ve can understand you. 11!<.

BARRY: My honourable colleague, the !1inister of Fisheries, gave me an opportunity to finish my peppermint knob before ana.,,ering the question. ?1r. Speaker, it is very dangerous to riroceed making a comment on a rumour with respect to a glut in the gasoline market. We have heen, ever since approximately a year ago, Mr. Speaker - the Department of J~ineFJ anrl Energy has heen receiving reports every month or so with reupect to the FlUpply and demand situation as it exists in Canada r,enerally and Eastern Canada in particular.

The latest information that I have shows that in some areas there are temporary or maybe longer term excesses of supply over demand. Mr. Speaker, this is where the normal market forces come into play. This f.fl where the consumer is in a position to do some shopping around. At the height of the energy crisis, 'lr. Speaker, when we were fleeing gas stations closed in the United States, when we were seeing prices escalating generally in Eastern Canada, even then, Hr. Speaker, there were still variances and differences in the price of gasoline at various pumps around the City of St. John's. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what ~,e will see happen is that if any company gets in the position where it has excessive inventory and cannot get rid of it, has no place to store it, then it is going to drop the price of that product. I ak the consumers in Newfoundland to do as they will be doing elsewhere, namely to shop around and give their business to the place where they are going to get the lower prices. This is how the consumer is going to have an effect on the supply of gasoline and any other product in Eastern Canada. MR. E. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, Could the minister 7448

December 3, 1974 Tape 1837 IB-2 indicate the position of the government with respect to the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency. Specifically are the government of Newfoundland contemplating doing the same as the government of British Collllllbia have done, nam~ly giving notice that they will be withdrawing this province from the - I do not know what it is officialiy called - the National Egg Marketing Scheme and I think CEMA or one of those terrible acronyms is the - but anyway the National Egg Marketing Monopoly. HON. H.W. COLLINS (MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY): Mr.

Speaker, the only answer I can give is that the matter is under advisement and really we are watching the situation as it develops and looking forward to the report which comes from the House of Commons Committee. We are just now studying the issue. MR. ROBFRTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the opinion expressed by Mr. Fred Wells of,I believe,Robinsons or somewhere on the West Coast, does that re_present the opinion of the government at this time? MR. COLLINS: Not necessarily, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Wells appeared before the House of Conmons CollDllittee representing the Newfoundland Egg Marketing Board, the producers. Mr. Wells is entitled, I suppose, to his own opinion. I preswne that is what he gave. ~- ROBERTS: So, he is not speaking for the government, Sir. ~m. F. ROWE: A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker. Is the winter maintenance formula for incorporated communites $800 per mile at the present time? Is there any special consideration being given to communities in Northern Regions of the province? If I can just give an example, Mr.

Speaker - in Cooks Harbour last year the snow clearing cost $5,000 and according to the new formula, they will be only getting $1,700 this year. So I ask the minister is there any special consideration being given to communities in Northern Regions • . °!ION. J. ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): The question to which you refer, the broader question, is now being clarified with respect to the Department of Transportation and Communications, as I understand it, and the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. A letter will be going out to all town councils hopefully within the next 7449

December 3, 1q74 Tape 1837 IB-3 few days, if not already, to explain the exact position to them. The town councils have always been responsible for the snow clearing in their communities. This year we have come up with a new programme both for summer and winter maintenance whereby $800 a mile for the 74oO

December 3, 1974, Tape 1838, Page 1 -- apb first five miles, six hundred for each additional mile is given to the community for winter snow clearing and for summer maintenance. There are two grants as such, The communities during the wintertime may do one of two things. They may take the money and provide their own snow clearing, that is their option, or they may elicit to request the Department of Transportation and Communications to do the snow clearing in which instance the Department of Transportation and Communications will do the snow clearing.

It will do it after other roads are done, the main arteries which is, I think, is going to be a problem. We agree with that. The money is then retained, as I understand it, by the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing for the account of the community in question to be paid to the Department of Transportation and Communications. All I can say is that we certainly will try to get every community that requests the snow clearing,done as quickly as we can.

We have to, of course, provide for main roads where there are situations of hospitals or other situations ar,.d we certainly will take that into consideration and try to keep the roads open as much as possible. A prime consideration certainly has to go to the main roads. As soon as they are done and where we are requested by the town councils and while the equipment is there we will certainly try to do the other roads. MR. ROBERTS: When the minister speaks of the main roads does he mean the main roads through the community as well as the highways between communities?

MR.ROUSSEAU: I guess the main road would be first, the main road on the highway, then the main road through the community and then the other roads after that. MR. ROBERTS: I think the minister had better look at that because it is no good to open between commtmities if people cannot get out of the connnunities. MR. ROUSSEAU: Right, but the question would be of school routes, for 7451

December 3, 1974, Tape 1838, Page 2 -- apb example, is that had to be an early morning MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR. ROUSSEAU: No I am just saying where there are school bus routes and that sort of thing we will have to give every consideration to them and trv to do it as soon as we can. MR. NEARY: Mr. Sneaker, I wonder if the Minister of Provincial Affairs who is quoted in the "Evenine; Telegram" of November 15, "Dawe Seeking Action For IOCC Oil Spill'' tell us what action is being taken against IOCC for that oil spill? MR. __ M{I._R_~HALL: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, and I do not want to interrupt the mode of ask1ng questions of the honourable member but it is clear in Beauchesne that one is not allowed to ask questions which enquire whether statements made in the newspapers are true. The honourable member has heen doing that, 1n effect, all the tine and nr,w he is asking. really, a direct one of the Minister of Provincial Affairs and he is out of order. ~-~q_B~ To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hononrahle gentleman's reference is correct but mv colleague was not asking whether the statement was correct or not.

Hhat he was asking - one could put it directly if one wished: what are the government doing about the reuorted oil suill at IOCC at Labrador Citv. MR. NEARY: Has any legal action been taken against IOC? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) - --· - - - -- ~ ROBERTS: Let him answer it. MR .. NEARY: T got vou on vour NTP meeting now, vou are r-rm-med off! MR. _ _5R_EAKER: The point of order raised by the honourable Minister without Portfolio is well taken. I am sure the honourable Member for Bell Island is well aware of that and I think he could also rephrase his question and suggest what he wants to find out. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister then inform the House if any legal action has been taken against IOC for the recent oil spill in Labrador City? HON. W.G.DAWE _(Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment): No , Your Honour, no action has been taken. 7452

December 3, 1974, Tape 1838, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Twillingate: MR. ~J}.LETTE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to direct to the Minister of Transportation and Communications: This concerns the ferry terminal at Indian Cove. In view of the decision made by his department, I am wondering if the minister can inform the House whether it is the intention of the government to buv back the ferry that was formerly used there or replace it with another ferry? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Transportation and Communications: MR. ROUSSEAU: I shall have to check that out.

I shall take it as notice and give an answer on it tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. "!-Ef'-RY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House in accordance with Standing Order No. 23, that the regular business of the House be adjourned to debate a definite matter of grave Public importance. AN H_ON_._M_E'.1-fllER: Urgent public importance. MR. NEARY: Grave, urgent public importance, namely, the increasing slaughter on our highways and streets caused by drivers under the influence of alcoholic beverages. While we are rolling our eyeballs heavenward.

Sir, in pius prayer over Safe Driving Week, we tolerate increasingly motor murder. AN HON. MEMBER: Order! MR. NEARY: What order? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) - ---- --- MR. ROBERTS: He is allowed to make a brief. - - ----- MR. NEARY: I am making a motion AJ'l HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) ------ MR._ -~EARY: Aw, keep quiet! What about the resolution you brought in the other day? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. NEARY: - - ·--- While we are rolling our eyeballs, Sir, heavenward we tolerate increasingly motor murder md do 7453

December 3, 1974. Tape 1839 RH - 1 and do our very best to provide convenient, attractive outlets whereby the immature of all ages may purchase their means of escape from reality and from responsibility I might say, assured, Sir, that the tolerant society and a yaffle of psychiatrists will get them a ninety per cent discount on any legal penalty for crimes while under the unfluence of government vended mind poison. Mr. Speaker, we can all take

part in the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Corporation. They showed a magnificent profit. MR . MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The honourable member is entitled to bring up a motion of urgent public importance if the House be, if the regular business of the House be adjourned to consider a matter of urgent public importance.

The authorities declare on the matter that he has to state briefly the nature of the matter concerned which he has already done and then Your Honour decides on whether or not it warrants the adjournment of the regular business of the House fhe honourable member while he is very amusinp,, is going on and giving his complete argument which is out of order. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, if I might, Mr. Speaker. Once again the House Leader has given the rule correctly but willingly or no is misapplying it .

All that my collea gue is doin g is making a brief statement of the matter so that Your Honour may then decide whether the matter is of sufficient urgency of debate so that the procedures set forth in Standing Order (23) shall be followed. I submit that my colleague should be allowed to go on and finish his brief statement of the matter of which he is moving the adjournment of the House and then Your Honour can decide and the rules will take over the procedures set forth. MR. J. CROSBIE: To that point of order. Quite obviously, Mr.

Speaker, it is not of urgent public importance whether or not the honourable gentleman's eyeballs were all upward or downward and I therefore submit it should be ruled out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. Until Your Honour hears the full statement, Sir, and until the members of the House hear the 7454

December 3, 1974. Tane 1839 Rll - 2 statereent, I do not think they should judRe whether or not it is a matter of ur~ent public importance. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I happen to think it is, Sir, but that is a matter for Your Honour to decide. I happen to think it is because of the slau~hter, the murder on our highways, Sir, but it is a matter of opinion. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The honourahle member for Bell Island in speakinR to that point of order is also expressinp his opinion with rep,ards to the motion that he is proposing. MR.NEARY: Inaudible. MR.

SPEAKER: I find the wordinR of the member's motion rather entertaininp, hut I think he is debating the motion and he is taking a little too lonp, in making the motion and adding a few words to it. I shall let him continue but if he proceeds in the manner as he was I shall have to ask him to take his seat. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that the wordin~ of my motion is not very entertaining. If members are listeninp. they would just think the contrary. Sir, that is a serious matter. Now, ~r.

Speaker, while we perhaos do not wish to interfere with the device of alcoholism for oeople who make their escape from reality and pet in this alcoholic haze, Sir, it would appear only reasonahle that a percentaRe of the take from the traffic in intoxicating bevera~es shoul~ ~c set aside to protect both the sober and drunken victims of excessive drinking.

For example, Sir, we miRht make it a requirement of every licensed establishment to have breathalizer test equipment installed on their premises at the liquor corporations expense and make it obligatory, Sir, for every patron to pass his .08 test before being permitted to operate a motor vehicle and failing such ability, Sir, that the proprietor of the licensed establishment provide transportation for his clients. Now, Sir, if that is not a serious ll'atter than I do not know what is. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. ~- NEARY: They can laugh at it all they like, Sir.

We are havinR accidents every day on the highway and on the streets and if somebody's little child 7455

.December 3, 1974. Tape 1839 RH - 3 is killed on that side of the House, Sir, they will soon take it serious. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The honourable member for Bell Island has finished his statement and he has not been recognized to speak further. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: If he continues to interrupt the Chair when it :i,s speakin-g he shall be named. The matter rai_sed by the honourable 111e111ber for Bell Island I am sure is of concern to us all but it is not a matter that I think we should ' adjourn the business of this P.ouse to dehate at this timP, MR. NEARY: Inaudible.

ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR._ SPEAKER: 'Motion 1. I think the honourable LeadJ!r of the Opposition ~djourned the debate the last day. 7450

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1840 Page 1 - MW MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When we arose yesterday, I finished a few preliminary remarks on the gerrymandering motion, which the government had brought in. I regret that the Premier is not with us today. I thought I heard the House Leader say that the Premier was incapacitated. Well, there are those of us, about 300,000 of us in Newfoundland, who believe that the Premier is incapacitated most of the time, judging from his performances as Premier. I am sorry that he is ill and not with us today.

I see that the Minister of Justice, that paragon of principle, that pillar of rectitude and that great believer in ending the gerrymandering system, is once again not present. I do not know if he is in St. John's or whether he is in Grand Bank or whether he is betwixt and between but it is much to be - I am sorry. AN HON. MEMBER: He is hiding away. MR. ROBERTS: Wherever he is, he is hiding away. It is much to be regretted that he is not here.

The bill, under which was set up the commission, whose report was gerrymandered by the Tories, was, of course, introduced by the Minister of Justice who did so with pride and glorying in his achievements. How the mightier are fallen. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned, in a little detail, not overly great detail, three points.

I showed how the Tories had thrown out that great principle, that was allegedly enshrined in the legislation, that was certainly enshrined in their minds and in their hearts, unless they were lying to the House and to the people of Newfoundland two or three years ago, in ~he spring of 1973, when the Redistribution Act, as we call it, came before the House. Either they were iying then, and I do not believe they were, either they were misleading the people in the House then, and I do not believe they were, or they have jettisoned 7457

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1840 Page 2 that principle: they have thrown it aside: they have sacrificed it. I think that is what has happened. I do hope that before this debate ends, every honourable member on the other side will rise in his place and will speak. They can talk about what they wish, subject, of course, to the rules. They can talk about, I suppose it is in order, the alleged gerrymandering which may or may not have gone on in the past. If it did go on in the past, that is only the more reason not to have it go on today. They may try to talk about that or they may try another red herring tactic.

They may talk about individual seats. Am I against this or am r for that because I have said that or I have said something else. If they wish, subject, of course, to Your Honour and to the rules, they can talk about that sort of thing. I hope that they will address themselves as well to two points because I think the people of Newfoundland have a right to know where the government stand and where the members of the House stand. The government, we can assume, stand by the bill. Not one of them hae left the cabinet over it.

Under the orinciple of collective responsibility, the Minister of Health, i.e., is part of the gerrymandering. He is part of the .1ettisoning of the principle. He took

part in the great change which led from the speech of the Minister of Justice that we never again would be guilty of that sort of thing, that led from that to the Redistribution Bill we have before us, the resolution we have before us. The Minister of Health is as much part and parcel of that as is, i.e, the ~inister of Recreation and Rehabiliation. Neither of those gentleman may have had the least hand in drawing the map which we see before us. That I do not know. They are all equally responsible and I venture to say, equally guilty. So I do nut think they will have to stand. They have taken their stand.

Not one of them has spoken in the ministry against it. Therefore, they must be taken to agree and they do agree. The people of Newfoundland will judge them accordingly. I hope that all the backbenchel.'s will stand and will say where they stand on two questions: Whether they think this House should have 7458

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1840 Page 3 fifty-one members or forty-two? The resolution before us now calls for fifty-one members. I think every backbencher is expected to stand. It is one of these debates where matters of grave orinciple, not the usual matters of government 745~

n£,ceml--er 3, JQ74 Tane 1841 PK - 1 usual matters of government nol:lcv as a grave constitutional nrinciple are being de hated. If they do not stand. of course, then they will be taken to a de!(ree. It is not gu-11 t hy association. It :Is not l!ni1 t lw silence. Their silence wi 11 he clearly and unmistakably acquiescent in what is going on in this House at this time with this motion and this 1,ill. Foually I would hope eacl , of the honourahle gentlemen opposite take my learned friencl, the gentleman for Placentia East. A man 1-1ho time and time again has spoken in this llouRe and nutside, of principle.

A man who believes in principle. A man who stands on principle. A r,an who ,,ould not he part of any dirty gerrymandering. A man who would not want to i;ee the work of the late Mr. Justice Higgins and Dr. Summers and the Reverend ''r. Webber and '!ap,istrate Seahright thrown out ·-Yithout reason, and no reason has been given. There is a reason and I will come hack to it but no reason has been given.

The Premier in his speech Rave no reason. ~one at all for casting aside the work of that commission, casting aside the principle whi.ch the Hinister of Justice with such eloquence and the sort of feeling that only the )-(inister of Justice can muster, as I know my friend will agree. AN HON. ~!F.',!BF.R : 'iR. ROBF.RTS: Inaudible. The Minister of Justice will answer when he gets back. I hope he will. I hope the 'Unister of Fisheries who used to believe in principle as ~,ell will take a stand on this.

How does the !-'inister of Fisheries. the learned and honourable and self-confessed princinled Minister of Fisheries tell us that the "'ecHstr·nution Bill and all this procedure that flows from that hill, Mr. Speaker, will take out of the hands of the government the responsibility for sett:lng the boundaries of tl-.e popul;,.tion of the various electoral districts in the nrovince. How does he square that with a resolution that has in it thirty-one districts boundaries changed from the reno rt? Hore than half. Fifty--one sea ts recommended bv the commission.

They were not recommended, they were told to brinp: in fifty-one ar,n they divided the province into ftfty-one areas. Thirty-one of them on this man are different from the report which Mr. Justice Higgins and h:!.s colleagues filed one vear ago. There are over half. I hope that all the honourable gentlemen will tell us about their stand on principle and will explain that) not try and camouflage it or hide :!.t away or evade the point. Let them ma!,e whatever points they wish but let them confront that issue squarely. Do 74oO

December 3, 1974 Tape 1841 PK - 2 they believe in an independent redistribution or do thev not? And if they do how do they souare that belief with supporting this? That is the stand. That is the question. That is the question that will be asked. Fqually then do they think this Romie should have forty-two or fifty-one members? We thinl'. forty-two is enough. One can differ. It is a different - Inaudible. T am sorrv. Yes, I am differi.ng from myself. Pnfortunately, the '·linister of risheries, Sir, has never differed with Mmself.

Pe, for examnle, based on his nast history in this House would never countenance to deal with .John Shaheen. Not him. He left the cabinet over a deal ,,,ith .John Shaheen. Ile would never have any part of John Shaheen. Oh, no, he ha,: never in his ] if e changed his mind. Never! ~•r. Sneal,er. has the Hon. !linfater of FisherfPs ever changed his mind? ~!ever! Not ever! /ind Your Honour I am l-ein~ nerfectly in linP. - Your Honour is p.riding himself to enter into the frav. 'f!', NF.AllV• "e had a grove 1n the floor here, so he 111ust have changed his mind three or four times. ,n,_.

T>!1BF.PT'-: '!'l-1e 'Minister of Fisheries, Sir, is no man - of all the men in this House, he is the least ever to tal 1- ahout chanP::!ng his TT?ind. Pi.IS mind :!s like a ne.ather vane. jt hlows with the ~•ind. I venture to sugge<;t ,so were his nrinciples _1urlging from his nol i.ti.cal nPrformance the last four or five vears. 1.et h:!m sav what he believes in thi" ,1Ph;ate. T,Pt- him p,cn1 ,iin. Ile is an honourable and learned member. Let him tPll w'w a renort that .Jim lfi9;gins and three other men snent a vear on that turned out nearlv cl1e Jase vear of "r.

Justice Higp,:lns'f' life. l!e !'<Pent a vear on a report and 1n it co!'les and it might as well have heen written on sand for all the attention that the honourable gentlemen opnosite na1d to it. Let them souare that. for Let us hear the Memher for Bay de Verde talk ,md the :"ember 7461

December 3, 1974 Tape 1842 IB-1 Bonavista South, that paragon of human rights who is forever telling us how pure he is, and the gentleman from Harbour Grace who is forever telling us how bad the member from Bonavista South is, and the gentleman from Port de Grave, let him make his maiden address in the House, tell us what he thinks. The gentleman from St. John's North who, to give the man his due - maybe as he said publicly the other day that is why he is where he is now - to give that man his due, he does speak out. He and I do not always agree heavens knows. The gentleman from Grand Falls, let him speak out.

The gentleman from Trinity North, the gentleman from St. John's South, from Placentia East, from St. George's, from Port au Port - none of these men is a member of the ministry. Most of them would like to be. One or two of them have been. One or two of them have rejected invitations if one can believe common report. Each of these men sit here as private members. Let them speak. If not, let them be judged on supporting this because they will be judged, they will be taken to have supported it. The ministry have spoken.

They have spoken through their collective spokesman, their collective mouthpiece, the Premier, who spoke for all of them, just as the l!inister of Justice two years ago spoke for all of them. The only thing is the Minister of Justice says one thing and the Premier says another but that is because governments change their minds. I hope they change their minds on the principle of fifty­ one or forty-two because forty-two is enough, Sir. Redistribution, yes, but forty-two members are enough members.

Now, Sir, I find it interesting by the way, the same Tory Party here that is talking of increasing the House, in Ottawa they are talking against increasing it, a move which will have the effect of depriving the people of this province of one seat. Because if the size of the House of Commons at Ottawa is not increased, if that motion which the government at Ottawa have put down is not carried and does not become law, Newfoundland will lose one of her seven seats. We will have only six. The same Tory Party here is talking of increasing it, why 7462

December 3, 1974 Tape 1842 IB-2 then is Ottawa, their blood brothers, talking against it? Well, Sir, I have made those preliminary points and I talked about what I felt were some very unfortunate matters of detail to come down from the plateau of principle and to try to engage the govermnent on their own level, considerably below the level of principle. I referred specifically to two or three seats which, I suggest, are badly drawn.

If we are going to have fifty-one - I do not agree with it - but if we are going to and if we are going to have the govermnent drawing their own boundaries - I do not agree with that - but if we are going to do that, then let them divide Labrador properly and appropriately. Here they have gone back to what the commission said in their preliminary report which the commission changed after hearings. The government have not given a word of explanation. The Premier, in attempting to explain this, showed his abysmal ignorance of Labrador. He had Rigolet on the south side of Lake Melville.

Ever since the Hudson Bay Company founded Rigolet 140 or 150 years ago, it has been on the north side of Lake Melville. The Premier did not even know where it is. It is in Labrador South. That may have confused him. Then he went on about the distances and the coastal boats. What he did not point out was the flow of - he could have talked to the gentleman from Labrador West who would have told him about the flow of commerce and the flow of traffic and the flow of travel and the flow of everything which, in both parts of Labrador, the South Coast and the North Coast, runs into Happy Valley, Goose Bay.

That is becoming the centre. If ever the government can be persuaded to move and to set up the crown corporation which Don Snowden's commission reconunended and which we have been advocating for two or three years. theheadquarters for that will be in Goose Bay, Happy Valley. That is the natural, logical place for it. That is the place where the communications go . Yet the government insists upon ignoring that and leaving that seat there . It is wrong, Sir - 700 miles of coast line, 4,300 people. There is no man alive - it does not matter what party he belongs 7463

December 3, 1974 Tape 1842 IB-3 to - there is no man alive as a member who would be able to serve those people adequately. It just cannot be done. There is no way it can be done. The same government that proposes this, proposes to carve out 8,000 people in Grand Falls and you could walk from one side to another of it inside of half an hour. It is jus t not consistent and it is wrong. I do not care about the politics of it. I have no idea whether those changes would make any difference politically one way or another. What I am concerned about are the people there.

I do not think they are going to get as ~ood a break unrler that map, that drawin~, the drawing in this schedule, as they would otherwise . 7464

r~c~mber 1, 1974, Tape 1~41, Pa,e 1 -- aah 1 cannot "ee anv reason why the JlOVernment should have change-1 it. The Premier gave no reasons. The c.ommission originall7 recmmnended that an~ the c01!lllliss1on changed it after hearing briefs and a~ter further consideration. How can the ~overnment have the ~all to change it back? It juat makes no sense. Havbe thev fi~ure it will hela them ~olitically, I do not know. That at least would be a comprehenAible reason even of it is not an acceotable one. T spoke as well about the Northern Peninsula seats.

It iq inter~sting that the government propose to have i4,O00 oeople on the Nothem Peninsula represented by two H.H.A. ' .q and down on the Southern Avalon they aroooae to have l~,000 represented bv two H.H.A. 's. It is a pretty tellinP, comment on the Torv idea of equity, the Torv 1dea of fairness. I will tell you whv that is: Because the pentleman frO!!l Ferryland and the gentleman from St. Mary's are desoeratelv anxious to try to orotect a seat. That is why 16,000 people here are going to be asked to elect two M.H.A. 'sand 24,000 people on the Northern Peninsula are going to be asked to elect two.

That is why a man in LaScie who wants to see his member will have to drive forty miles to Baie Ve rte, fifty miles to the Trans Canada llighwav, one hundred miles over to Deer Lake, two hundred mile~ down north to Plum Point and fiftv miles across to Roddickton if his member haooens to be in Roddickton. That is equity: That is 1ustice: That is concern for the people! That is the one man one vote orinciole with a vengeance: It is gerrymanderin~ of one of the lowest most contemptible forms I have ever seen.

They believe in a one man one vote and if they do not want to accept even the idea of tolerances then let them make them even. No, Sir, they stand for tolerances and so do we but what way do those tolerances work? Thev do not work to benefit the peoole in rural areas,the people who need helo. No. It is sheer coincidence, Sir, that in areas where the change came happened to have voted for opposition members. That is sheer coincidence. I am sure that has nothing at all to do with it. That is why 24,000 people on the 746S

December 3, 1974, Tape 1843, Page 2 -- apb Northern Peninsula, stretched over four or five hundred miles of coast line, without paved roads, in small comnnmities - the largest community on the entire Northern Peninsula is St, Anthony with 3,000 people - that is why they are going to be given the right to send two men to the House of Assembly, to look after them and to speak for them. Down here in Ferry land and in the St. Mary's-The Capes Districts 16,000 people have the same right, That is the Tory _iustice. That is the Tory equity.

That is a devotion to principle, That is the sort of thing the P,entleman from St. John's South, the gentleman from Placentia East and other honourable gentlemen have made their career on. That sort of decency, that sort of honourable treatment. That is the sort of thing that a man can be oroud of. What did you do today? Well, boy, we put the shaft to the Northern Peninsula and 24,000 of them now can send in two memhers and down in Ferryland and St. Mary's Districts, 16,000, It is not that I am against St.

Mary's or Ferryland, somebody opposite will probably say that either here or outside, but I am against this sort of departure from principle, this low, scurvy - and I do expect the gentleman from St. John's South to soeak out against this. If I do not hear him do that he will go down greatlv in my estimation and I have a great estimation of him. I do expect the gentleman from Placentia East to speak out against this. These honourable gentlemen are not in the employ of any ministry. These honourable gentlemen stand as private members. They do not haooen to support my party but that is fine.

In a free society we have differences and they can be honestlv and honourably held. This is not a matter of party difference. Whether or not one accepts this reoort is not a matter of party difference. it is a clear-cut issue of principle. As clear­ cut an issue of principle, Mr. Speaker, as has come before this House in the last ten years. Do we accept the independent reoort of Mr. Justice Higgins and his colleagues or do we not. I say we do. I say we should. Every honourable member opposite will have to decide what 7460

'December 3, 1974, Tape nf'i ?, Pa~e 3 -- a'Db he is to do. ~ colleagues and I have decided what we are going to do. So we saw the changes, Sir. Thirty-one districts changed. An extra six had only their TI8Jlll!S changed !fo that does not really count. Fourteen; there were neither changes in boundaries affecting res:l.dents nor names of districts. Let me just read the list o.f honour, 746"/

December 3, 1974. Tape 1844 RH - 1 the districts that the Tories gerrymander, the districts where Mr. Justice Higgins report was not followed, Naskaupi, Eagle River, Straits of Bell Isle, St. Barbe, Baie Verte, Placentia, Salmonier-Conception, Ferryland, Avalon North. These are all districts recommended in the final report of the commission, districts that.have been now sacrificed to the Tory lack of principle. Portugal Cove-Bell Island, Port de Grave, Harbour Grace, Trinity, Clarenville, Bonavista South, Terra Nova, Bonavista North, Fogo, Twillingate, Lewisporte - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: Bonavista North is not the same as the commission's report. It is a minor change but it is a change. I remind the honourable gentleman one cannot be a little bit pregnant. The boundary that the commission recommended took in Deadman's Bay and Lumsden into the district of Bonavista North and out of the district of Fogo. The boundary the Tory govenunent have drawn in their gerrymandering leaves the line running out to Cape Freels. It is a minor change but it is a change.

The honourable gentleman I think will agree with me because the facts agree with me, the facts support me, to continue the role of honour, the role of Tory dishonour. Fogo, Twillingate, Lewisporte, Exploits, Grand Falls, Windsor, Green Bay, Mount Pearl, Mount Scio, Pleasantville, St. John's West, Waterford­ Kenmount, in each of these districts, Sir, the politicans have drawn the lines of the districts, not the commission. There is not necessarily any­ thing wrong with that if one wants to accept that system. Apparently, it is hearsay to my knowledge but I will accept it as correct.

Apparently that is what went on for 150 years in Newfoundland. The politicans drew the boundaries. But two years ago we entered the new Jerusalem and the Minister of Justice stood in his place and announced that we had come to that green and pleasant land and he and his fellow :.1hite knights in shining armour were going to end that system, never again, never again would we have the dirty, scummy politicans drawing the boundary lines, no, Sir.

We would have an independent commission and we would ask the Speaker to name three men to it and we would ask the Chief Justice of Newfoundland to name a man to be Chairman. The Speaker did name his men and fine men they were. The 7468

December 3, 1974. Tape 1844 RH - 2 Chief Justice named his man and a fine man he was and in they come. They bring a preliminary report and then they have hearings at eighteen or twenty places throughout the Province. People present briefs, HHAs present briefs, members on both sides present briefs. The gentleman from Ferryland presented a brief. The gentleman from Port au Port presented a brief. Any other honourable gentlemen opposite sending briefs?

The gentlemen on this side are the member for Labrador South, Labrador North, myself, a number of others presented briefs and in the commission bring their final report a year ago, last December, December 14. What did the Tory government do? They jettison it. They throw it aside. They just scuttle their principles. "Away with them and out, principles he damned. We are going to gerrymander our boys. We have to protect our crowd. We have to protect the member for Ferryland, protect the member for St. Mary's. We have to do something about that poor, pathetic man who sits for Bay de Verde.

We have to protect the member for Trinity South. We have to find them seats boys. We have to try to save Aubrey in Grand Falls. He is down the drain. Let us try to carve him out a seat. That is what we will do. We will get to work and while we are at it we will scuttle Neary boys and we will scuttle Roberts ancl Rowe.'' That is the thinking of these men of principle in Cahinet. That is exactly what went on, exactly and precisely and I say that with as much certainty as if I were there or if I had tapes of it and I have neither. Well I say that with absolute moral certainty.

That is what went on and that is why thirty-one of the fifty-one districts recommended by the Higgins commission were changed, not one, not two, not a name but thirty-one out of fifty-one districts changed and this from the Tories who talked of an end to gerrymanderinf. If it was not so pathetic and if it was not so serious I would have to laugh. I do not think there has ever been a group of men other than this Cahinet who have ever so openly and brazenly divorced themselves from principles as the honourable gentlemen opposite have done 746~

December 3, 1974 Tape 1845 IB-1 in respect of this redistribution. The Minister of Transportation and Communications, a man of honour, has got to look at himself in the mirror when he shaves in the morning and say, "Joe, boy, you were part of it. You set up that commission. You voted to set it up and now, boy, you are voting to throw out that principle." Maybe he can square it with his conscience. I hope he can because he will have to. Maybe it does not bother him. Maybe he thinks, " Ah, it is a great thing, boy. We will put the blocks to the "Libs". We will show them." Maybe that is the thinking.

If so, my respect for the honourable gentleman goes down. I respect him as a political foe and as a man concerned with this province. If he stands for this sort of nonsense and this sort of abandonment of principle - no reason given. The Premier did not give one single reason of substance. The Premier spoke of hundreds of protests. We have not seen one. There may be some - I will deal with that later - but we have not seen one, not one substantive reason is given for these changes. Honourable gentlemen opposite may not have any trouble squaring that with their consciences. I venture to say most of them will not.

I say more power to them. I know thousands of people in Newfoundland who do have trouble squaring that with their consciences, who do feel that if you say you believe in a principle, that you will stand by it. It is not a very costly stand to take. It does not mean that any man is going to have to give up his life. It does not mean that anybody is going to have to give up his fortune. All they have to give up - they do not have to give up anything to stand on this principle. It is not a very tough stand to have to take.

It is not as if one had committed a crime and had to decide whether one would confess it or not. It is not the stand of a man like Richard Nixon who knows that he has c0111111itted a crime and has to decide whether he will own up to it or not. It is not the tradition of a man like John Dean trying to decide whether he will do what he knows to be right or whether he will continue to take

part in the cover up. There is none of that. This is 7470

December 3, 1974 Tape 1845 IB-2 not that sort of case. All that is needed is for a man to say, "Boys, we have stood by a principle two years ago. We stand by it now. If we cannot win an election without gerrymandering, then we are not going to win it." I would say for my party that if we cannot win an election without gerrymandering, then we will not win it. Nothing could bother me less. Victory at any price is not worth it. I would not want to be sitting anywhere today because of a man like Bill Saunders. It is not on my conscience but it is on other peoples.

I would say to the gentleman from Labrador West, let him think about it. Maybe he has resolved it in his own mind. Let him think about it. Let the gentleman from St. Mary's think about it. Let the gentleman from Placentia West think about it. Let the gentleman from Fortune Bay think about it - all men who time and time again tell us they stand on principle. I take them at their word. Let them think about what I am saying because I mean it. I mean it as sincerely and as dramatically and as deeply as any man can mean anything.

There was a principle enshrined in legislation, clearly stated, clearly understood and that principle has now been abandoned. It has been abandoned with as much shame as a harlot abandoning her lover. That is very little. It has been abandoned completely and utterly ~nd for no reason, no stated reason. I know what the reason is. The reason is partisan expediency. That is why it has been abandoned. But there was no reason stated. The Premier did not have the face or the gall or the courage to stand and state the truth.

Give Joe Smallwood his due, at least when he did it, he stood and he said, "We believe that a man in the outharbour should have a greater voting power than a man in St. John's." Whether he agreed with that or not is another thing but he said it man fashion. He stood in the House and he said it. People could judge for or against as they wished. Not this crowd here, Mr. Speaker, they are trying to pretend community of interest. They are trying to pretend growth. Let us talk about growth. We are told Grand Falls is to get a whole seat because 7471

December 3, 1974 Tape 1845 IB-3 of growth. The Premier said it in his very own little voice, in his very own little Bouse, a couple of days ago, on F-riday afternoon. He had to say something because it is proposed to give the Town of Grand Falls, with 8,077 people according to the government's figures, a seat. Growth, maybe there are some areas where we do not expect rapid population change in the next few year s. I am prepared to accept the fact that in the Straits Area there will not be rapid population changes or at least not rapid population growth, in the next few years. There are a number of others.

How does the gentlel!lan f-rom Grand Falls square that with giving the 12,600 people in the proposed District of Topsail 7472

Tape 184fi PK - 1 District of Topsail, one memher. If we are going to get ii:rowth an~,There in the Avalon Area,then we are going to get it in the Avalon Area. The Minister of Fisheries told us the other day that there are going to he 4nn,'100 peonle in St. John's by the end of this century or fifty years on, 2025. There is going to be growth in the next ten years in Topsail and yet that is the largest seat we have in population. Harbour }fain, Bell Island - the get Nearv Hovement.

There is going to he growth un in the head of that bay, yet they have been given a seat with 12,'111", 'ialf as manv again as Grand Falls which once again has been given a seat for reasons of growth. Pleasantville with 12,noo. The growth principle does not apnly there annarently. One would judge,it does not apply. Nor e11ually does it apply in St. John's Fa!St F.xtern. ~- NFAPY: Phat hanpem; if the federal government stores on in the --- -- mines at Bell Island? 'fR. P,OBFJ:tTS: Hell, lots of thinp:s will haonen if they take UP the honourable gentleman's suggestion to store oil on Rell Island.

Fumher Fast is not goinp: to havP anv growth apnarently, if one judges from what the Premier sajrl, because t1'ey have 11,573 peoole accordjng to these figures and thev are being given a seat. You know it makes - hut on the other hand we do exnect vast growth on the Southern Shore because they have only got 8,rJ4Q neonle, the smallest !Seat barring only the Labrador seats. So ohviouslv if "'e are p:oi.np to get vast growth between r.appahayden the last community on south and Bay Bulls. Hhy else are tliev given a seat Pitl1 8,0()0 neonle? T'1at is whar happened in the case of Grand Falls.

They are going to have rapi<l growth in (!rand Falls. So thev are given a seat. The same in the 11:1.strict of the Capes with 8,400 neople. Pe are going to have rapid growth there. Along the Cape Shore here there are going to he new metropolises snrimdng uo and up here in Branch. Branch is going to have mayhe 8,nno or 10,ono people in the next few years according to this. Mr. Speaker, the growth principle which the Premier annunicated is not even a weak reason. It is not even an iota of a ;u!'ltiftcat:1.on. 1t is a pathetic example. You would think that tfr. Korhai being paid his

necember 3, 1974 Tape 1846 Pk - 2 big fat salary down there and all the rest of them down on the eighth floor with their biii; fat salaries could come up with a better line of argument for their man than that. I mean that is like sending him into the fray with one hand tied behind his back. I mean he has got enough troubles speaking in the Pause anyway without not having some alll"'tmition. MR. NEARY: Putting the Rpy glass up to his blind eyes. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, both hie blind eyes. Then we talked about the community of interest. That was the other reason given. Let us talk about community of interest.

Let us talk about the connnunity of interest between Roddickton and Eaie Verte. Vast connnunity of interest. l•lhy every day thev get up in Roddick ton and they drive the fifty miles to Plum Point and they drive the 200 miles to Deer Lake and they drive the 100 miles back to the Baie Verte Junction and they drive the fifty miles down to Baie Verte everv day, Sir. They are such a communitv of interest. F:very day they drive it. AN HON .MEMBF.R: Jt is forty miles to Baie Verte. "1Jl .• ROBERTS: 0h, it ts ten miles because of the had roads that the Tories have not strai11:htened up yet.

Fe naved the road to Baie ~'erte. Pe paved it. As a matter of fact, every cent that has been spent on LaScie Road, we paved. That is the vast communitv of interest. ~11 right we will come to Englee where it is sixtv miles across to Plum Point. That is the commun1ty of 1nterest, Sir. That is what the Minister of Transnortation is voting for, this man, this nrinciple, that great community of interest 1>rinciole. Let us talk about the community of interest here in Mary's Harbour and how much they have in common with Nain, Why, Sir, they visit back and forth for tea oarties. It is only 700 miles.

They meet practically every day. Say the r.oishes in Mary's Harbour, ~fr. and 1'1rs. Bert Coish practically every day they just drop down to Nain or Makkovik or Postville for tea. You know, they have a great community of interest. I mean it is outrageous. Outrageous! Not that they should do it,that is bad enough, the Tories should do it but that they should try and put this naton on it, try and explain it in this way. 7474

December 3, 1974 Tape 1846 PK - 3 Tell us again about the g~eat commu~ity of interest bet~een the Cane Shore anrl Trenassev. A~ain, Sir , a very deep community of interest. My friend for Bell Island knows a fair bit about that shore and I think that he would agree with me ·· is th.ere not a ~eat community of foterest between the Cape Shore anrl Trepassey? Say Xnitel's C::ove and Cuslett and t hev come across all of the time f r om Yerryland. 7475

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1R47 Pagel - MW You could almost say that they go over to mass there. There are only about five parishea in between. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: That is right. The people in flranch, J 11.m told, wanted to atay i~ St. Mary's District because they hoped that the road will be built from North Harbour up to Branch, indeed it iR half done. It has been half done for about five or ten yearR, an old AnB project that got started and never got finished. It should be finished. I have not heard anybody from St.

Bride's or Patrick's r.ove or Big Barasway or Ship Cove, say that they want to be in with Trepaseey and St. Shott What have they got in common? They go to Placentia as the nearest large COIRDlunity. That is their hospital. I mean it is an insult to the intelligence of the people of Newfoundland. Tell me again, Sir, because I did not hear it on the first time through, what the people of Bell Island have in common with the people of Harbour Main. The commission recommended in both reports that the diRtrict should be Harbour Main-Bell Island. MR. NEARY: (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Oh, I am sorry.

Bell Island-Portugal Cove. I thank my honourahle friend. Indeed they wanted to call it Bell Island and The Coves, with Horse Cove, Goat Cove and Broad Cove, which is now St. Phillips and Portugal Cove itself. That is a natural community of interest. What do they have in common with Harbour Main. Even in the old days, the boats used to go to Carbonear. Did they go up to the head of the bay as well? It is rampant, rank gerrymandering. If anybody over there should have any political conscience left, he will have to show it on this. It is a terrible, terrible thing. It is bad enough they do it. AN HON.

MEMBER: They are really interested in - MR. ROBERTS: Oh, yes, so are their priorities. The people of Newfoundland are listening. They might not be listening to every word I say but they are judging this crowd. Mr. Speaker, I think we should have a quorum call please? There are only thirteen in the House. 7476

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 18~1 Page 2 AN HON. MEMBER: Has the honourable gentleman finished? MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: No! I have not finished. I am just getting warmed up. We have a quorum. I am grateful, Your Honour. I mean if we are talking of adding nine members to the House, the least we can do is to try to maintain a quorum with forty-two. Are we adding the nine so we got a better chance of keeping fourteen in the House? Is that it? MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible) MR.

ROBERTS: Ah, the giant, the intellectual main-spring behind the Tory Administration; namely, the Member for Green Bay, has tipped it of, the real reason we are having nine. MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: It may be a compliment to the honourable gentleman that he is the intellectual main-spring of the Tory Government, it is no compliment to the government. I can assure the honourable gentleman it is no compliment to the government. It may be a compliment to the honourable gentleman. AN HON. MEMBER: The poster snatcher. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the poster snatcher.

That is where he made his mark in political history, He was not very good at snatching votes but he was pretty good at brow-beating little children with money to say, "Give us your posters little fellow." of that, Anytime he would like an investigation 7471

December 3, 1974. Tape 1848 RH - l I am sure my colleague from Hermita~e would be delighted to trot out the relevant files and the affidavits and everything else. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh! Would the honourable gentleman like to set up a judicial inquiry into it? Say who was in the car with him? Say who was in the car with him? MR. PECKFORD: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am just asking the honourable gentleman if he would like - The honourable gentleman returned the posters. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the honourable gentleman was involved. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

You are just returning to the fray but I am sure the honourable Leader of the Opposition is not being relevant to the resolution that is now being debated. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorrv, Your Honour. I find it very hard to be relevant to the gentleman from Green Bay and nothing that is parliamentary is relevant to him. Now, as I was saying, maybe the reason we are having nine extra men in the House is so we can maintain a quorum. Maybe that is it. An easier answer would be to buy fourteen seat belts for gentlemen on the other side. Strap them in at three o'clock and leave them there until six. Now, Mr.

Speaker, before I go on to one or two other points let me deal with one point which again shows the hypocrisy of the Tory government with respect to this. There is one seat in this proposal before the House now which is clearly illegal under the legislation passed in 1973 and I invite honourable gentlemen opposite who are learned in the law to deal with this argument. I realize that the legislature is not bound by any legislation which has been passed and that if we pass a bill setting up a seat that is law.

But I will point out that the commission were directed to bring in a seat that was one-half in Labrador and one-half on the Island of Newfoundland. This provision was not in the bill as it was brought to the House by the Minister of Justice when he gave us his Magna Carta speech before he lost and abandoned his principles. It was added as a result of the debate. A number of honourable members spoke. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 7478

December 3, 1974. Tape 1848 RH - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I am talking about the Straits of Bell Isle seat and I am talking about

Section 16(

c) of the Act, lection 16(

c) of the Act as it now is and it will be found on page 470 of the statutes for 1973, volume (1).

Section 16(

c) makes it mandatory upon the commission, not the government and this seat is perfectly lawful. I am not suggesting it is not and if this bill becomes law, of course it will be lawful. But under the act as the House passed it was an amendment moved by no less a gentleman than the Premier. As I recall it he was the one who put those words in. It was not just some ordinary, common, milksop cabinet minister. This was the Premier in all his majesty and glory, added what has now become

Section 16(

c) which reads, "In preparing a report under Section (15), '' and that is the report which was laid before the House and which the Tories threw in the ash can. "In preparing a report under Section (15) with repsect to Labrador comprised with the Coast of Labrador within the meaning of the Labrador Act together with the islands adjacent to the said coast of Labrador, the commission shall proceed subject to such adjustments as are necessary to give effect to the population of Labrador beinr, entitled to at least:

(1) Being apportioned among three districts, all of which are completely in Labrador,plus

(2) An equal entitlement in conjunction with the popu­ lation of some part of the Province outside Labrador to another district in the Province." Labrador in this

section was entitled to three and one half seats and indeed down below the commission were ~iven the specific authority to depart from the principal of twenty-five per cent above or below the norms to give effect to that

section 16(c). Mr. Justice Higgins, the point was raised before him and the commission as to whether equal meant equal 7479

December 3, 1974, Tape 1849, Page 1 -- apb in area or equal in population. He, of course, said that it had to mean equal in people. The

section seems to indicate that but he gave it as his opinion and when the commission filed their final report, the one which the Tories scuttled, it said and I quote from page (3): "In the case of Labrador provision was made (referring to the legislation now) for the creation of at least three districts all of which were to be situated completely in Labrador plus a district in which a portion of Labrador was to be joined with a portion of the Island of Newfoundland to form a new district in which the two portions would contain an equal number of people." That is the comission's report.

That is the commission's report. It was the principle that the government on the floor of the House put into the act. What do thev do when they come in with their gerrymandering? They have a district that is partiallv in Labrador and partially on the island. It has, according to the government's figures, 11,600 people in it. It is the seventh or eighth larp.est district in the province in population. How many people live in Labrador? Now remember the legislation said half-and-half. That was the principle that the Premier spoke up for. A great man the Premier. Stands by his word though the heavens fall!

A great man. A man of honour and integrity. The communities along the Straits, according to the census had 1,886 people in them. Thirty-five in Henley Harbour, fifty-five in Capstan Island, twenty-seven in L'Anse-Amour, one hundred and eip.htv­ six in Pinware, L'Anse-au-Clair two hm1dred and thirty-three, West St. Modeste two hundred and ninety-four, Red Bay two hundred and ninety­ six, Forteau three hundred and twelve, L'Anse-au-Loup four hundred and forty-eight - total 1,886 out of 11,617 in the constituency. This is the government. They were up on their feet the other day.

The Premier was on his feet talking about Labrador and giving it some concern in of all the hypocritical nonsense that even the Premier has ever got off. 1,800 people along the Straits are lumped in with 9,800 on the island. That is giving Labrador fair representation. Here we are, all of us concerned about the growth of separatist feeling in Labrador with 7430

December 3, 1974, Tape 1849, Page 2 -- apb ensuring that that feeling be given no fuel on which to feed. We are playing into their hands. The Tories are doing their best to divide this province by this sort of tactic. Playing right into their hands, giving them ammunition. Less than 2,000 people on the Straits, 9,500 people on the Island one district. One district. Hr. Speaker, it is almost criminal. It is infamous. I am surprised the gentleman from Labrador West can even be part of the cabinet that does that. I really am. I thought he has the courage to speak out for what he believed in.

I am coming to the conclusion that he has not if he tolerates this. If he tolerates this. The commission came up with a seat that was roughly the present St. Barbe North which is a small constituency and should not continue to exist under the principle of one man one vote, and lumped it in with the other side of the Straits. They said it had 7,000 people. Even that is an imbalance and a serious enough one. Even that is disservice enough to the cause. The government have compoU!lded that and added insult to injury. 2,000 peonle in the Straits now are going to have to make out with 9,500 people from the Island.

Not the sort of thing, Sir, that we should be doing if we are concerned about the future of this province and the two geographical portions of it. There are peo1>le in Labrador who are separatists. The gentleman from Labrador South has run into them. Others of us have. The gentleman from Labrador West I venture to say has run into that feeling. It is there. It is real: It must be and it should be the proper concern of anybody in public life in this province today because none of us wants to see the province divided in any way. This sort of tactic is bad in itself but he~vens above, Mr.

Speaker, it goes against the very legislation which the Premier himself did. Now how far can a man descend from principle? Just how low can a man's politics take him? Just how absolutely,to what degradation, what depths can a man descend politically? Just how low can a man go? We have a debate in the House, a lot of talk on a point about Labrador. The Premier himself - I do not know if he actually 7481

December 3, 1974, Tape 1849, Page 3 -- apb moved the amendment - but he certainly came up with the idea and the government put it in. Then in comes the report and they throw that out. They throw out the idea of givin~ Labrador three and one-half seats. Labrador has about 3.12 seats now. It is infamous and I expect fully that the gentleman from Labrador West will stand in this debate and denounce this and will say that he will not stand for it, that he will not be part of it. Better to give Labrador to which she is entitled to strictly on the basis of population.

If we consider only population Labrador is entitled to three seats. We do not helieve that. We argued in this House for four. The government gave three and a- half and now three and a-half has become three and a-tenth or three and an eighth, I really expect the gentleman from Labrador West - we shall get the measure of his political courage now. He is a man of principle. He will have to stand and show us, denounce this and get is changed. The commission heard arguments on it and the commission changed their minds. Four independent people. Four men of probity and integrity who have no partisan axe to grind.

Only one of the members sought election, Mr. Justice Higgins and he was out of politics ten years gone when he came on to the commission. Magistrate Seabright, Mr. Webber, Dr. SW11111ers, to my knowledge none of those men has ever sought even a nomination. None has ever sat in this House as a member. I do not know their political ambitions but I have no indication any of them ever wants to be a member. They are generally non-partisan, as good choices as could be made and the Tories trampled on that principle. The dishonour and the lack of decency.

It will just add further fuel now to the separatist flames, I can hear it now. I can hear them at their meetings saying: "That shows what they think of us. Bad enough we had the Royal Commission a year ago and not a thing has been done on it since except study. Ah! we are getting ready for the election. We will have a great flurry of reports before the election and activity but nothing has been done. Nothing! Absolutely nothing!" 7482

December 3, 1974, Tape 1849, Page 4 -- apb Now the final indignity: What little they were given by the Premier's grace has been taken away from them, Why? I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker, and I wish it were not me because I do not like speaking about myself in this way but it is done to try to shaft me. That is the only reason they did it. That is all. I am not complaining. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR.~ OBERTS: The gentleman from Bonavista South will get the measure of his principles and we know the principles of the gentleman from Placentia West. We have taken care of those over the years.

MR. _Bp.RRY: C',o on down to Placentia West. Go on down. MR._ ~O1!_ERTS: I well may. Nothing would cause the honourable gentleman a greater tip.htening of the sphincter muscle than that. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am talking about the gentlel"an from Labrador West who is the only member from Labrador sitting on the government side and also sits in the cabinet. Upon him there rests a very heavy burden in this respect. A very heavy burden. I did not put it there and I am not seeking to make it any heavier but I say to him that he more than any other individual in this House has a responsibility on this issue.

The facts are clear. It was his own Premier who put that

section in the legislation. You cannot even blame it, Mr, Speaker, on some legislative draftsman. It was a government bill. The Premier came up with this idea. Now the Premier, his own Premier has put the shaft to that idea and to Labrador. The gentleman from Labrador West,who sits in the cabinet, if he does not speak out on this is part and parcel of it. That is the way the collective cabinet responsibilitv system works. It is the only way it can work. lie will have to square that with ,his conscience. I am not worried about his electors nor is he.

I know he will do what he believes right and he will face his electorate and he will take whatever their verdict is. That is what any of us should do, That is not what I am suggesting. I am saying; in his own mind, in the dark of the night when a man comes to grips with hie own 7483

December 3, 1974, Tape 1849, Page 5 -- apb conscience - when a man knows what is right he can rationalize it, he can vary it, he can push it aside, he can prevaricate but there comes a time, there comes a time when there comes an issue when a man must come square on. I would suggest to the honourable gentleman from Labrador West, Sir, that this is such a time for him and this is such an issue. He speaks for Labrador, Sir, and I ~elieve quite genuinely he has done his best for Labrador. It is not his fault that the cabinet have done so little, that the r,overnment have done so little for Labrador.

Indeed, less might have been done if the honourable gentleman had not been in the cabinet. This, Sir, is not an issue that he can sweep aside. He will have to confront it. It may well be that he will sav that he accepts this. I doubt that he has thought about it in the wav that I am putting it to him. I really doubt if he has hut I am putting it to him quite genuinely and quite openly. This cannot be swept aside. It is an issue on which the people of Labrador will expect the honourable gentleman to take bis stand. Either he accepts that or he does not.

If he accepts it he accepts what is in that resolution and he is going against what his own Premier said in this House two years ago. I do not mind the Premier changing his mind, we are quite used to the Premier's flip floos, bad days and everything else but I have not found that in my friend from Labrador West. The time has come for him and the issue has come. Whether he speaks in the debate or not, Sir, is up to him but he will have to deal with this issue whether he speaks in the House or not. If he says nothing then he ha!S dealt with it.

He has agreed with it by saying nothing and I put the challenge to him man­ fashion across the House, looking him straight in the eye. Section (16)c is there. The Hansards are clear. The Premier spoke on Friday March 23. I think I have the dates correct. Yes, the Premier sooke on Friday March 23, second reading debate. I do not have the committee references here but I am sure they are here and I can find them for 7484

December 3, 1974, Tat>e 1849, Page 6 -- apb the honourable gentleman. He spqke and the references will be found on page 2592 of Hansard. lf the honourable gentleman does not have his copy to band l will send him photostatic copies of this one. The Premier said: "I think it is· desirable to have the Straits of Belle Isle, the Labrador side and part of St, Barbe North to be one seat." There is 110 finer ·way, 7485

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1850 Page 1 - MW. way, Mr. Speaker, we can cement the provincial relationship and the differences that have arisen than to identify these two areas into one representative. I feel fairly strongly on this. I do not want to be parochial nor do I want anyone else to be blamed. I do not want to blame anyone else for being parochial or insolent in this regard. In the remarks that the Member for Labrador South made the other day, he said that people across the Straits did not have as much in common as the people in Labrador South as it presently exists. I would disagree with that.

I think the people in L'Anse-au-Clair would have as much in counnon with the people of Flower's Cove and probably a great deal more than the people of L'Anse-au-Clair would, with the people of Rigolet. I am trying to look at this objectively, Sir, from a government point of view but I think it makes a great deal of sense to try to get Labrador to feel that they are part of the province. I do not think that there is any better way than to have a mutual seat where one representative actually is representing a district in the province as opposed to two sections of the province.

I am not sure whether the Premier actually moved the amendment in committee stage or not but it was moved on the government side and it became law. That was the Premier's feeling. The Premier apparently has abandoned principle. We are getting used to that in the Premier so we do not take as much heed to it. That Strait of Belle Isle seat, Sir, as it is constituted, is overwhelmingly an island seat, a Northern Peninsula seat.

That is where the balance of the people are and any member who serves in that area, whether it is me or anybody else, will of necessity have to spend a greater part of his time and a greater part of his efforts trying to help the people and to serve the needs of the people who live in the area from Plum Point around to Conche. The Member for Labrador South, I would suspect, would agree with that from his knowledge of the area. I challenge any member of the House to differ 7486

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1850 Page 2 with that st;ate111ent. Furthennore, if there are 9 .SOO people on the island IUld 1,900 on the Labrador side of that distric -t, there is no hope ever of the people fr0111 Labrador South, the Strait side, having a candidate from their area. There is no realistic hope at all. Indeed it would be probably best for them if it were 1111 outsider, a 1118D with no ties to any part of the di.strict;

whereas- in a distri .ct that is half and half on e_ach side of the Strait, they got a ficfty-fifty chance of having one of their men. I know 111en down the.re who want to s_eek the Liberal nomination and there lire men who want to seek other nominations. 'The present Member for Labrador S~th baa indicated publicly that he does not intend to run again. I am sure he knows 1111l11Y men along that coast who want to seek the noaination for his party, directed to coateat an election. 7487

December 3, 1974 Tape 1R51 PK..:. 1 Well they will have no chance in the Strait of Belle Isle seat. None at all. It has got nothing to do with politics, it has got everything to do with people. So I leave it with the gentleman for Labrador West. He is going to have to go home tonight and think about it, whether he speaks or not it is up to him but if he does not speak I say now that the people in Labrador will have taken him to agree with this Principle and to agree with what is being done in this redistribution. It is not a pleasant burden that I lay upon him but it is an open and an honourable one.

I lay it upon him and he will have to deal with it. It might not matter a root or a hoot or a row of pins or a row of beans in the next few months but I say in the honourable gentleman's political career this could be one of the great turning points because here is a clear case for one of the principles for which he has fought. One of the basic principles, helping Labrador. Ore of those principles is being violated for on cause and no reason, without even the courtesy of an explanation.

If the honourable gentleman is the man of integrity that I believe him to be and that people in his district believe him to be, that people elsewhere believe him to be, then he will speak out against this. He will act against it. Mr. Speaker, I have dealt I think with the, I exploded what little credibility there was in the Premier's arguments that the growth principle was what led the government to decide to throw out the report of '~r. Justice Higgins and the commission.

I have dealt eoually with the argument that exploded it, (It is not a difficult job,) of communitv nf intPTP~t~ nPit~er of these urinciples govern this government, Sir, neither of them are the standards by which that map was drawn. Neither of those is the reason for which thirty-one seats were changed from the fiftv-one recommended by !{r. Justice llip;gins, the late Mr. Justice Higgins.

There is onlv one real explanation and I have touched on it time and time again, and that is to help the Tories to protect Bren Howard and to protect Jim Reid and to protect Gerry Ottenheimer and Tom Doyle and then to hurt Roberts and to hurt Fred Rowe and to hurt Steve Nearv. That is the only orinciple. Let 7488

December 3, 19711 Tape 1851 Pk - ? them be man enouph to come out and admit it. Let them be man enough. What other reasons have they given? What other reason can they give? So I sav to each member, ~Ir. Speaker, let him stand and make his stand on the question of forty-two versus fiftv-nne. Then on the greater question of an independent commission; either one believes in it or one does not. One cannot believe in it in half way. One cannot he a little bit pregnant. One either is or is not. One either believes in this principle or one does not. If one believes in it, it is all the way.

If it is not. then so be it and let them stand exposed for what they are. Not only men who gerrymandered but men who have gone against their o~m stated principles to gerrymander. That add1n"' the 1n,ml t tn th"' iniurv. Then; Sir, the Premier has the gall, and I think I have his words correctly; Yes, he said, "The government had received, "and I quote him, "hundreds of protests." Again the report of the second commission. This is the final report. Deceml:er 14, 1973 report. Well maybe he did but he has not given us evidence of one of them.

So I challenge the Premier,and there are little people opposite who will scurry to him to carry the news, so he will hear about it, to produce those reports and to produce those protests. Pe referred the other day to a number from the head of Harbour Main, or from the Head of the Bay from the present Harbour Main Area. I do not doubt though that he should table them. t.~. NEARY: Did you notice the ~ember for Harbour Main going around to try and so 1:1.c it - "IR. ROBERTS: 0h that is what I ,;as goiny to sav now. The honourable gentleman for Bell Island has made the noint.

Then I invite the Premier and the .1unior Member for Harbour Main to sav that those protests were not solicited. I invite him to say that. AH HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, ROBERT),: Ah, of course, there were. Of course, there were. Sure there where, I could have solicited several thousand as well. Just as there were some protests from Marystown and the Burin Area over the name of the constituency. Of course, there were protests. I invite the government to table those. Then I invite the government to table everything else, 7489

December 3, 1974. Tape 1852 RH - l which they received by way of protest and I say there were none. I would like them to table the requests that Bellevue seat be created other than Jim Reid coming whimpering in some day and saying, "Frank boy, I am up the creek anyway but you have to try and save me." I invite the government to table any other correspondence or documentation in connection with the creation of the seat of Bellevue. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - need a bulldozer. 'ffi.. ROBERTS: I invite them - Old conflict of interest. He has written a new book about how to benefit from his position in government.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Point of order, sure, a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I mean the statement made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition who obviously got carried away is that the honourable Minister of Rural Development learned how to benefit from his position. MR. ROBERTS: I did not. I said he has written a new book. MR. MARSHALL: On how to benefit from his position in government. The innuendo is there and the obvious implication is there.

Now the honourable Leader of the Opposition has a propensity to go off into personalities from time to time and we ip,nore it because we understand the reason for his - we understand his proble~ but there are certain statements that the ~an makes that we cannot ignore, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the honourable member to retract anv imputation against the honourable Minister of ~ural Development. There was an imputation definitely there. MR. SPEAKER: There are a couple of points I would like to make.

I think it is usually the custom that when one honourable member is referrine to another that he does not refer to him by name but rather by the constituency which he represents. I think the point of order raised by the member was well taken. I think the Leader of the Opposition did infer that the honourable Minister of Rural Development who would seemingly gain as a result of his office and I think that is sort of questioning the integrity of the member. I would invite him to retract that particular statement. MR. ROBERTS: Well, all I can do is as Your Honour requests and withdraw the 7490

December 3, 1974. Tape 1852 RH - 2 statement and we will let the neople of Bellevue or Trinity South judge for themselves. I am only reflecting what hundreds of people out there are saying. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tnaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I invite the government as well to table all the correspondence they have had that said we should change the Labrador boundaries. AN HONOURABLE ME."{BER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Ah! The Premier said there were hundreds. He trotted this ----- out to justify, to attempt to justify the gerrymanderinp. So, table them, produce them.

There is nothing confidential or secret about them. Table them and I say they will not be tabled and I will sav why they will not be tabled because there were none and there are none. Oral requests, I will bet there have not been fifty people other than Tory hacks and ward heelers sav a word to the Premier about redistribution. I will bet there have not been twenty people other than Tory hacks and ward heelers make any representation, oral or written outside the Harbour Main area and the Burin-Marystown one subsequent to the report of the commission, the final report. So I say to the government, I challenge them.

The Premier has made the statement. Now let him prove it and if not we will know him for what he is and he will have been convicted by his own words. Then too, Sir, the Premier, that man of principle, told us that because of these protests and because there were no hearings on the report of December 14, 1973, no public hearings on that, the government were going to change it. That was their justification in part, no hearings on this, no select committee, no publication.

The government gave notice in January last, eleven, ten months ago that there would be a redistribution bill and it is only now at the end of November that we see it. Why are there not hearings on this if the Premier is so concerned with public hearings? I wilJ tell you why there were no hearings on the report, the final report: because the legislation said you have a preliminary report, you have hearings and you make a final report. That is whv Mr.

Justice Higgins and he deserves better than to have the Premier attack by implication, him and the other members of that commission in connection with this report. 7491

December 3, 197~. Tape 1852 RH - 3 Qf course there were no hearings on it. That is why the final report was the final report. The Premier then comes slippini anci sliding in and s -ays, "Well, we got protest," He does not produce ii one. He refers to a f ·ew from Harbour Kain district which I invite him to say, and were not solicited. I invite him to be wary and careful when he says that. What­ ever the answer is I want to be assured they were not solicited. The ones from 'Burln and Maeystown deal.t with the question of name, not with the question of s1,1,bstance. I invite the gentleman from Placentia West to tell us about those and any others of which he may have knowled~e. 7492

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1853 Page 1- MW Then, too, I invite all honourable gentlemen opposite whom have any letters about redistribution to table them. Let the people of Newfoundland see. I will predict, Sir, that there will not be twenty­ three letters and telegrams tabled because there are not and there were not any. It is just an airy-fairy excuse that the Premier has brought up to attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Mr.Speaker, it is shameful. Gerrymandering has been a fact of life in politics. I thought we had ended that era in Newfoundland. Apparently, we have not.

In this as in so many other fields, the Tories took the people up on the mountain and showed them the green and pleasant vall~ys below. When the people followed the Tories down from that mountain into the green and pleasant valleys, it turned out that they were filled with slag and dust heaps. The people of Newfoundland had been betrayed again by the Tories, misled, fooled, lied to, tricked, deceived. That is the way the Tories deal with the people of this province. They are convicted out of this one as if they pleaded guilty before the Supreme Court. It is a sad and a sordid performance. I do not care, Mr.

Speaker, how the Tories cut up the map. I really do not. If the people of Newfoundland decide to put the Tories out and put the Libeaals in, it does not matter how the seats are carved out. It is just as when the people of Newfoundland, in their wisdom, decided that we will put the Liberals out and we will put the Tories in, it did not matter how th~se seats were decided and distributed. The will of the people will prevail and I do not care how the Tories do it. I do not care how the Tories carve it up or gerrymander it.

I say now that unless my party gets the support, the plurality of the voters in the next election, then we do not deserve to be the government and we shall not be the government. This will not save the Tories, this mess of coloured potage. It will only hasten; it will only hasten 7493

Oecemher 3, 1974 Tape no. 1853 Page 2 their decline because fair-minded people all over Newfoundland have looked at thie. I would like to see the Minister of Health talk on it, a man of honour and integrity. How did he square it with hia conscience? How did he square what the ~inieter of Justice said here two years ago with what is being done today? I would like to hear him becauae he is part and parcel of it and so is the Minister of rinance, s man who parades his principles like they were a preambulator before him.

Let him stand and tell us how, when tte Minister of Justice says, "Ah, we will have no more gerrymandering, we will have an independent commission" - The Minister of Energy, is he going to he a scurvy and hide or is he going to stand and say where he stands? Has he accepted this? He is still in the cabinet. He did not leave the cabinet before and he will not leave this one. Mr. Speaker, it is a shameful expedition by all of them.

If they are going to gerrymander, let them at least come in and be straight about it and say, here is what we are doing, if you like it, fine and if you do not, that is fine too, but to pretend, to pretend to he men of principle. The Minister of Health now will tell us; he is a mah of principle. He will reveal himself. He will have to vote for or against this legislation. it or he is not. Let him square it now. Either he is part of The gentleman from r.rand Falls, let us hear him talk. He can talk about boundaries if he should want. He can accuse me of being against Grand Falls if he should want to.

It is not true. If he should want to say it, he can. Let him then come square on to the principle, furty-two or fifty-one, an even greater principle, the infinitely ~reater principle, Independent commission or no; that is the issue we are deciding. The gentleman from Bonavista South, a man who hopes to have a political future in this province and who works hard in the hope that he will achieve that, let him stand on principle. He is fond of telling us of his principles. Let him exhibit them; let him ahow a little courage) He has never hesitated to criticize his own party.

He has even got his own party criticizing him now. 7494

December 3, 1974 Tape no. 1853 Tape no . 3 The Member for Harbour Grace has heen told off as the shadow member for Bonavista South, I guess, is the way to put it. Let him stand and say what he thinks o f this. I will not ask the Member for Bay de Verde. That would tax him too much, askin g him to make a speech in the House, '.!'he Member for Port de Grave, let him stand with his usual 7495

December 3, 1974 Tape 1854 IB-1 eloquence and his force and his vigor and tell us whether he approves of this or not. I do not expect anything from the gentleman from Placentia West so I shall not bother asking him. The gentleman from Trinity North, let him come to his feet, a man who has got a great concern, he tells us, with issues of principl~ and morality and the proper conduct in public life. How does he square , what the Minister of Justice said with what is being done now. The Premier could not explain it.

In the course of my few brief remarks these two days, I have dealt with and exploded every single argument the Premier advanced. The growth principle - no more growth than a dwarf. The community of interest - the great community of interest between Harbour Main and Bell Island, between Nain and ~ry's Harbour, between Englee and La Scie, the community of interest principle. There is no more principle than it is cheese. The protests - I challenge the Premier. My friend from St. Barbe North asked the House Leader today and got a usual insolent, arrogant answer from that insolent and arrogant gentleman.

There are no protests other than whatever has come in from the Head of the Bay and from Burin, }larystown and maybe the odd other one. I would like to see them tabled. It is easy enough to prove me wrong, Mr. Speaker. They have got them in their files. Let them haul them out and table the Redistribution File. They can show me wrong on that point quite easily. I venture to say there will be no tabling of documents. There will be no tabling of letters. There were not twenty oral communications other than maybe the odd Tory ward heeler of one sort of another greasing in, looking for his rewards, just or otherwise.

They cannot square it, Sir. It is an arrogant, rampant gerrymander by a group of men who held themselves out to the people of this province in election campaigns and in this House as being above that, as being men who would stand on principle, men who would fight for what they knew to be right. It will not harm the chances of my party. That is not my concern. I am not the least bit concerned about that. It did not 7490

December 3, 1974 Tape 1854 IB-2 harm us in Hermitage or it did not hann us in Gander, Twillingate or in Bonavista, Trinity, Conception or in Grand Falls, White Bay, Labrador, all the other places which the Tories have lost since March, 1972. They even lost Labrador South. We did not win it. The gentleman from Labrador South was the electorate in opposition to a candidate from this party as well as a Tory. The Tory came third, six per cent. Sure Ed Kearsey paid more people than voted for him.

There were more people on his payroll working for him than went to the polls and marked an 'x' for him, the Tory candidate, Mr. Kearsey. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tell what you did in the Leadership Convention. MR. ROBERTS: No, Sir, I do not have to. That is the Tory Leadership Convention that does that. To have the honourable gentleman talk about principles, is a little like having an alcoholic talk about temperates, his acquaintance is somewhat limited. AN HONOURABLE HEMBER: Did you run any slates in the Leadership Convention? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, of course I ran slates, Sir, and I shall do it again. Now, Mr.

Speaker, as I say, for the honourable gentleman from Placentia West to talk about principles is like an alcoholic pleading for temperance. His acquaintance is nodding. He acquaintance is very nodding. If he wishes to speak in this debate, Sir, let him get to his feet and let him tell us, not his usual little legalistic whimperi.ngs and ,-1hinfo.gs and maneuverings, let him tell us, Mr. Speaker, how he squares with what his colleague and friend and mentor, the Minister of Justice, said. Maybe I should read it again for the honourable gentleman. The honourable gentleman, Mr.

Speaker, let him say how he explains this. Mr. Speaker, let him explain it. The honourable gentleman from Placentia West, Sir, has no concept for order or for principles. Let him, when he wants to speak in the House, speak. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, let him follow the rules of this House. He is forever telling us how good the rules are. A..~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am speaking on the topic, Sir. The honourable gentleman is intruding himself and thus I am forced to deal with him just as one

December 3, 1974 Tape 1854 IB-3 would deal with a particularly pesty black fly that is carrying all sort of odoriferous diseases. So, one in turn must deal with the honourable gentleman. Let him tell us how be stands on the principle of this compared to the principle of the impartial con:mission. Let him tell us . I w1.ll be interested. Of all the tor.tuous wanderiogs of the honourable gen tleman 's mind, these will be a new high. I will listen with grea t interest. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me conclude, if the honourable gentleman would allow . Then perhaps he will speak. We will have the pleasure of heading him.

We will have the pleasur e of hearing other honourable gentlemen. The Minister of Fisheries who has returned to the House after a brief absence - I hope he wil l speak. I want him to tell me how the principle of an independent commission is squared with this. 7498

npceml-,er 3, 107 t, Tape 1'155 PK - 1 The gentleman for ~t. John's South has returned to the C:J,amher, nerhans mome!ltar1lv. J honP he too will speak. Thev can twist and turn ahout 1,oundaries here or houndar:les thpre hut the fact remains this commission followed the lpp,islat1on to the letter and made the:!r renort ar1cl tbi s p.;ove.rnment ',avP chosen for no annarent reason to throw it out. ThPre is a reason, of course, it is nArt1san and ft fs nolitical and these are the r1en Pho would never descend to that. Hv concern, '•fr. f,neaker. ts not t••ith how clce houndarf.P.s ;qre draw:-,.

HP h;qvP no real sav over that. The nine of us on this side of tlie Hou,;e l'111 not nrPvaiJ against t'-" ~'-irty-t~•o on t1'at sfcle. The faith of th:ls rPcli c,tributior, measnrP '•!ill be determined in the Tory caucus ;ind in the Torv cahinet. Tf rhpv feel that they are go:lnp. to put it thron<>r as they no,,, fpel I then thPv "ill nut it throuTT 1'. Jf they decide to make the Funk Isl an-ls a district th;it nil J 1--P so.

T1,»v have thf' majori.tv to their hacks, they can do as thev would '-ut t 1,,.,, do have the ma-Jor:ltv to their hacks onlv until another election, thPn t,._,e neonle of Yewfoundland w:!11 decide. "v concern :is ,.,jth the harm that is beinr: done to nul-Jic lffe l-v a r>roun of mE'n Pho stanc'I for OT1P t 11inP.:, who stand for a preat rP.form ancl march ri grt un to the J,rjnl, of l t. Then •-,hen the time comeia to 1mn1Pmel'1t that reform they bacl< right off. The" •-•al.k a Pav from it. "'hev turn th Pi r hacl,s.

The,, try to ••easel out. 'T'hat is what concern.,;; !'le, "1r, T t 11nught that WP harl come 1n '1evfouncllanrl to tl,e day w],en tJ-,Prl? ,·ould 1--e no more pern'T".anc'ler1np. T,Te have not CO'l\e to t1,/l.t clay, <sir. Fe are hack PhPrP TJP vere ten vearR iwn nr t,,,enty ve.ars ago or one hunclrPcl vi>ars ago. The 'l'ori 1?s havi> hroup,ht us hacl, there. The Tori PS have done :It. It :Is no argumPnt to sav tl1at the L1herals m:! ght 1,avP. done ; t in the past. Sure. Tn t:.e n;i.st the Torv Government in 1 °24 took the taxes, the 1mnnrt taxes and nut thetn on hutter, out a dutv e,n hutter.

Tlren a meml,er of that Torv C:overnment staYtPrl a butter factorv. T mean that was - then thev put the rlutief' on cornagP, and thP.n the l'rimP Mf.nister started a cordagi> factory or ownPd a cordage factorv. AN !101'. "F"BFl! : JnaudihlP. 1"1,. ROTIFllTS: Yes. I remember it vivirllv, I was therl?. Tt was only 191&. I remember it vivjdly. Viv:fdly. J'ust as the honourahl.e p:entleman holds me 749~

December 3, 1974 Tape 1855 PK - 2 responsible for everything this party did from 1949 on. I was eight years old when the first government of this province was formed after Confederation. I am personally responsible for everything it did. I am directly responsible for the fact that, should we say>that ~r. Ted Russell resiP,ned in 1951. Full and complete responsibility for that. 1'he Tories, Sir, have t11-ken this province back. I hope that honourable gentlemen opposite will sneak out against this. I hope and exnect the gentl=an for St.

John's South to do that, the gentleman for 'Placentia F.ast to do -ft. 1 hope the gentleman , for Labrador West will stand up for Labrador. Let them be men. This is not the normal partisan issue. It should not he. That is what we are ending in this orovince. Let us see if they have some courage. I hope the gentleman for Bonavista South t~ill speak. Let us see if he has the courage, he tells us about so often_, h!s willingness to stand and fight without regard to partv line. Let us see what interest they put ahead - party or province. ~r.

Speaker, I ask the government to change this resolution, to send it back to the committee, to the commission with instructions to bring in forty-two seats. 1 ask the govermnent to reaffirm their commitment, our c011D11itment to the idea of an impartial commission setting those boundaries. Then when that is done, it can be done in six weeks or a month, lots of time for an election come spring, then let us have the general election and let the peonle of Newfoundland decide and whatever the result that will be the result that counts and that will be the result that should count. Thank you!

MF .• SPEAKER: The honourable 'fember for Bonavista South. MR. J. ~ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a few words to say on this piece of legislation now before the TTouse of Assembly. In listening to the rather eloquent speech of the Leader of the Opposition, I do agree on one point, I agree that all members of the legislature should have their say on this hill. Agree or disagree hut in particularly with the boundaries because the act to set up fifty-one seats in this province has already been dealt with by this legislature. It was dealt with in "larch, 1973.

If my memory serves me correctly, it was voted on unanimously and accepted by this Fouse of Assembly. 7500

necemher 1, 1n7t. J'I( - 3 The fac t now t hat the Onoos.:ltion are comin P. 1,ack and sayin7-, we do not want fifty-one seats, I agree, is a right of the Opposition to chang e thP.ir minds, In listentng to the speech made bv the Leader of the Or,position, I hav e not heard anv argument as to why he vill now refuse to accept fift y-one s eats 'llhen he did in ~!arch. AN RON. ~l'F?-IBF.R : Inaudible. }!R, HOR.GAN: J hav e not yet heard an arizument to the affect a!S to t•1hy in "11rch the o,.,position voted for fifty - one seats and 110w thev only ua nt fiftv-onP, The cry that we have 'ieard thP la1>t two davs,is the cry that 7501

necemher 3, 1974 Tane 1856 'PK - 1 the p.overnment are out to get me, ts out to get the Hon. T.eadPr of the !'nnosi.tion in h:1s mm di.strict. If' out to p.Pt the nartv ,,,hin for l',el 1 Tsl,md and otl,ers. That to me is a very, verv limo argument. The fact is that ve nid nass le?;islation Act Ho. 41,_, :l.t was passed hv thi;; lep:islatjo