LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 10 June, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TECHNOLOGY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Comm ittee please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. Mr. Min ister. HON. E. KOSTVRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In introducing the Estimates of Industry, Trade and Technology before this committee last year, I noted that after relative success in weathering the worst North American recession in four decades, the outlook for the Manitoba economy was modestly promising for the year ahead.

In light of this our government decided last year to shif t the focus of our ec onomic strategy. With a reasonable expectation that the worst of the storm was behind us, we announced that in the year ahead increased emp hasis would be placed on laying the economic foundation for longer-term job creation and growth. I am pleased to be able to observe that the Mani toba economy has made solid progress in 19 84. The final results for 1984 are not all in, but the most recent prel imina ry estimates indicate that Manitoba's real output expanded at 5.6 percent in 19 84, compared to 4. 7 percent for Canada as a whole.

This means that Manitoba's real growth last year may have been the highest rate since 1976. Particularly encouraging to me as Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, there are indications that growth in both the trade and investment made a significant contribution to this strong overall performance. As well, comparing 1984 as a whole with 19 83, employment in Manitoba increased by 2.4 percent or 12 ,000 jobs. Only three other provinces enjoyed a higher rate of increases last year.

I am especially pleased to note that the rate of increase in Manitoba's full-time employment last year was greater than the national rate. In citing these figures, I want to empha size the im portance of taking an overall view of Manitoba's ec onomic performanc e and of our gove rnment's eco nomi c record over the past three years. It is important not to be distracted by short-term cyclical movements and monthly statistics.

As the Investment Dealers' Association noted in their recent report, the level of employment in Manitoba is currently 2.3 percent above the pre-recession peak, compared to 1.1 percent for Canada. Indicators such as these provide a meaningful and well-balanced picture of the progress we have been able to make together in Manitoba over the past three years. I am certainly not suggesting that the solid economic progress being made in Manitoba is attributed solely to the efforts of the Provincial Government.

We have always maintained that development occurs as a result of joint efforts in an environment of co-operation. But we are convinced that a balanced overview of the record indicates that our government's overall approach to economic and social policy has been about right. Since we were fir st elected our empha sis has constantly been on putting people first. That is based on our fundamental belief that economic development and social development must go hand-in-hand. We believe that the evidence shows and will show that you canno t have one without the other.

This is what distinguishes our approach from that currently being pro pagated in some other ju risd ictions. This fundamental belief that putting people first makes eco nomic sense has been transla ted into our government's policy and commitment to maintain a high quality of public services in a manner that is both efficient and fair, while at the same time, placing due emphasis on economic development and job creation. With a year of solid post-recession recovery behind us, we recognize that the major economic challenge ahead remains that of long-term restructuring of the Manitoba economy.

Working together we must continue to build the dynamic economic structure that will continue to provide the basis for long-term job creation and sustain growth in our province. The empha sis we have placed over the past year on balanced long-term job creation will therefore continue in 1985-86. As my colleague, the Min ister of Finance, pointed out in the Bu dget Add ress, this ec onomic theme un derl in es both the bud getary polic y and the expenditure allocations of our government. This is also the ma jor strategic empha sis underli nin g the exp enditure Estimates of Ind ustry, Trade and Technology.

The allocation of $8.9 million to Industry, Trade and Technology for'85-86 represents a modest increase over'84-85. This is in line with our overall policy of prudent and fair fiscal management. It is also in line with our decision to retain the Manitoba Jobs Fund as a major instrument for impl ementing our longer-term economic strategy. In reviewing these Estimates, it is im portant to point out that Ind ustry, Trade and Technology is a department with major responsibili ties for delivering many of the lo ng-term economic development programs financed under the Jobs Fund.

The Estima tes before us today can onl y be full y understood in this context. I would now like to touch briefly on some of the main features in this year's expenditure Estimates for the department. Over the past fiscal year, the Industry Branch has developed and launched a series of new initiatives in line with our emphasis on restructuring and enhancing the manufacturing base in Mani toba. These programs are now under way with sign ificant financing for these initiatives provided through the Jobs Fund. In the forthcoming year, activity in the branch 2792

Monday, 10 June, 1985 will shift from the program development pha se to focus on the imp lementation of these long-term economic development programs. The Estimates for the Industry Branch reflect a modest extension of this programming in fiscal year'85-86. Trade Development is a program area that has received increased priority from our government over the past three years. After a previous period of relative neglect and decline, Trade programming will continue to be an area of high priority in'85-86.

An additional staff year has been allocated to the Trade Branch in support of export development program ming, and that has been reflected in these Estimates. In addition, there will be increasing activity in the forthcoming year in the area of international trade negotiations and ensuring maximum Manitoba spin -off from the Limestone Hydro Project. The Trade Branch will continue its responsi bili ties in support of these important activities. Technological development also remains an area of high prior ity.

Our government recognizes that along with human development, technical development is an ess ential com ponent in building a dynamic new economic structure in Manitoba. Consistent with our broad strategy of promoting technological adaptation while exploring niches for technology creation, several imp ortant new initiatives have been launched in the past year. In the forthcoming year our prim ary emphasis in the technology area will be on im plementation of these new program initiatives.

Partly as a reflection of this information technology, the Technology Branch and the Manitoba Research Council have been reorganized. This new organizational structure for deli very of technology programs has been reflected in our'85-86 Estimates. With the transfer of the Information Management function back to the Department of Fina nce, the information technology group in Industry, Trade and Technology now consists of four SYs. The primary responsibility of this new group will be the managing of Jobs Fund progr amming in the in formation technology area including the lnfoTech Project and the Teledon project.

The lnfoTech Project includes $3 1 0,000 for staffing expenditures provided by the Department of Education and some $4.2 million from industry contributions over the three years. Admin istrative expenses for the Information Technology Division included in our Estimates are $15, 000 plus salaries. Estimates for the Technology Branch and for the Grant Assistance to the Manitoba Research Council are only modestly increased from the'84-85 adjusted vote. The major changes are reflected in the Jobs Fund Program admin istered by the branch.

The gr ant ass istance to the M RC will continue to suppo rt somewhat less than half of the total MRC Technology Transfer progr amming. The bulk of the cost of this programming is derived from revenues generated by contracts with industries in the private sector. In conc luding these introduc tory remarks, I particularly want to emp hasize the key role that the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology plays in impl ementing our gover nment's overall economic strategy. Over the past year we have placed increased emphasis on using the Jobs Fund to lay the economic foundation for the creation of long-term jobs.

The new program initiatives that we will be reviewing as part of these Estimates for this department are testimony to this reorientation of the Jobs Fund over the past year. These Estimates are also a testimony to the inno vative appr oach to long -term ec onomic dev elopment that we have adop ted and are implementing. The dynamic restructuring of our economy to meet the challenge of changing global conditions is not a task that will be comp leted this year or the year after next. It is a long-term task requiring long-term solutions.

In facing this challenge, our province is no different from most other ju risdictions in Canada. Wher e provinces di ffer is in the way they approach this challenge. Our approach in this, as in other areas, has been to ensure we put people first. Lon g-term development and job creation is not an abstract economic problem. It is a challenge affecting people, the way they work and the way they live. A commitment to putting people first requires that we must be prepared to play a leading role in co­ operat ion with all sectors in advan cing and im plement ing creative solutions to the challenges ahead.

We belie ve that as a government we are living up to this challenge, to this commitment to the people of Manitoba. On the economic front, Manitoba Industry, Trade and Technology has pl ayed and will continue to play an important

part in fulfilling this commitment. MR. CHAIRMAN: As is the custom and practice in this committee, the Chair now invites the leading critic of the Opposition Party to make his reply to the Min ister's statement. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I will be brief. I believe personally in getting on with the Estimates as fast as possi ble.

The figur es that the Mini ster has been providing, although you can't argue with them, I think he makes a statement in there that you must not let month to month figur es influence you and you must not let all of the glowing figur es that are presented to gov ernment be the only ones that you take into considera tion. The Manitoba economy in the past year has not really grown as fast as the government would like to believe it has. The economy has definitely been in more short­ term jobs than it has been in long-term jobs over the past year, as far as government incentives is concerned.

The manufacturing investment is not up as high as it was in 1981 and the government keeps using pre­ recession years and yet other areas have been moving ahead a li ttle faster than Man itoba, as far as manuf ac turing in vestment is concerned and manufacturing jobs.

I have always stressed manufacturing jobs because they are the base for the service industry and every other indus try and they are the jobs that can be provided by the use of our resources; so the government has to realize that you can't just take a look at the glowing pictures and you can't take a look, as I said, all of the good reports, like the investment dealers of Canada. The Conference Board is one that this government at the present time sort of laughs at and yet the Premier of the Province used to stand up and make the remark that that was probably one of the 2793

Monday, 10 June, 1985 best indic ators that there was when he was in opposition and now the Conference Board is something that should not be paid attention to. The horrible horrible rut that people can get into by not recognizing all indicators and doing an analyzation of them is something that can be very disastrous. So, Mr. Chairman, I can only say that the government's figur es that they present -they're rather reaching for them, I might say.

There are still many more people unemp loyed than there was before and emplo yment is not growing as fast in this province as it in others, as has been pointed out in the House, so I don't have to go into that too much further. So the government, as far as I can say, as I said, he's reaching to find figu res to make itself look good and they're not taking into consideration the actual facts that are before them. With that, Mr. Chairman, we'll carry on with the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point in time the Chair invites the mem bers of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places.

Defe rring Budge t Item No. 1(

a) related to the Min ister's Salary as the last item for consideration by this commi ttee, we shall start with the consideration of Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Adminis tration and Fin ance, Executive Sup port, Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Member for Sturgeon Creek . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well this is the Min ister's staff and the Minister's department of the deputies, I imagine. Can the Minister tell me, the deputies and the executive staff -what does that consist of? There doesn't seem to be any change in salaries. HON. E. KOSTVRA: There is no change over the adjusted, however there was a change in terms of personnel in the last year, an assistant deputy mini ster had been moved into this appropriation. That's Mr. Blicq, but that was done prior to year-end so it was adjusted.

The staff in this appropriation are the deputy minis ter; adminis trative secretary; assistant deputy mini ster, Mr. Blicq that I mus t referred to; secretary to the deputy minis ter; and executive assistant to me -five staff. HON. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Blicq, he's been transferred from Crown Investments, is that it? What particular department is he heading up now in this department? HON. E. KOSTVRA: He had, throughout the period remained on the staff of the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology, but he was on secondment to the Department of Crown Investments and he just recently returned.

His main task area is dealing with health care industry initiative, health care industry developments. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Health Car e In itiative Developments, he takes over the place in Industry, Trade Division to look after the development of health care expansion in manufac turing? HON. E. KOSTVRA: It's really an expansion and a more focused thrust on the health care ind ustry. There still is one industry branch person who is dealing with the broad health care in some other areas. Mr. Blicq is dealing with that sector exclusively along with the one staff person in the Industry Branch. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Is this the area that we discussed in your other Estim ates of the Communi cations Agreement, Hospital Communi cations, etc.? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Not directly, though there are some proposals being considered from the health care sector to that federal-provincial agreement on commun ications that Mr. Blicq is involved in, but the initiative is broader to see how we can better capitalize on the health infrastructure that we have in the province and get more industrial development, expanding such things as the Rh Institute, get more companies operating in the health care related fields like St.

Jude 's Medical which recently opened its first operation outside the Un ited States in Canada to further indu strial opportunities relating to the health care indus try. MR. F. JOHNSTON: If Mr. Blicq's salary is in here, the amount remains the same as it did last year -pardon me, you explained that didn't you? HON. E. KOSTVRA: That's an adjusted . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)( 1) -pass; 1. (b)(2)-pass. 1. (c)( 1) Strategic Planning: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expen ditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This department, as I mentioned, was being set up several years ago and the understanding in the department at that time was that it would be doing the strategic planning work to analyze what would be the best types of industry to go into the province or that the indus trial people should be looking for. Is that the function of the department at the present time? HON. E. KOSTVRA: In

part it's that function, but it's also broader support function for various policy analysis and development, program assistance assessment and development, project evaluation and that kind of function for all of the department and it supports the role in our department as the lead agency responsible for Economic Development. In other words, we also co-operate with such departments as Agriculture, Natural Resources with respect to the forestry industry, Energy and Mines and Transportation and other related econ omic departments.

So, we take the broader approach in terms of policy initia tives and polic y developments in the economic area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Does the department still work with the industry and if requested to do an analysis of expansion in the different products or assisting industry that is looking at coming to Manitoba as doing analysis as to whether it's viable or not viable. Do they do that type of work, working with industry? HON. E. KOSTVRA: On request from staff of the Industry Branch, this branch will do work on statistical areas in terms of relative industrial sector or a specific industry. 2794

Monday, 10 June, 1985 MR. F. JOHNSTON: It's a very large salary content in this and of course I know this phone book isn't up to date at the present time. How many people are involved in the Salaries here? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are 17 position in this branch. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And it has an ADM in charge of it? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there's an executive director that heads up this division. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And the $459,0 00 of Other Expenditures, can the Minis ter give me a rundown of that? We're looking at $1.2 million here. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: It includes a variety of normal expenses related to transportation and supplies, material ready to compute it. The major expenditures in that area are provision for strategic studies, broader range studies and there are provisions for $370,000 of that $459,000 that are related to strategic studies. The rest of it is the general operating costs of the branch. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister mentioned transportation.

Does this Strategic Planning group travel a lot to different areas to do assessments, etc., or as I might mention, I know it would probably come further on, but the Hong Kong, the Pacific Rim type of trade and investment, did they do a lot of travelling in this respect -or anywhere for that matter? HON. E. KOSTVRA: There's very little in travel in this branch. The total for transportation is 20-odd thousand dollars, so I don't believe any of them have been outside of North America. The staff that do more of the travelling related to industry are the Industry Branch and of course the Trade staff. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite clear, Mr. Min ister, on the costs of the Strategic Planning. What costs are involved? You'd say most of the costs, $370,000 is Strategic Planning. That means there are people doing hours of work and research, etc., and planning. Where does the actual large cost come in? HON. E. KOSTVRA: The $370,000 that I had mentioned is for strategic studies and it includ es such things as a study that we did on the manufacturing sector in Manitoba that was done by the Institute of Social and Economic Researc h, Mr. Mason.

It also includes other studies that we do with respect to investment, search. Also we've done some work in the telecommun ications ind ustry area. It provides for the ability to do work on contract, of a broader strategic nature in terms of the economy and specific industry sectors in the province. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The Minis ter me ntions "on con tract." Does that mean that the department contracts with consultants for studies? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, there have been a numb er of studies contracted, like the one with the Institute of Social and Economic Resea rch. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: How many studies and how many consultants would have been used? Let me put it another way . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm just totalling them up. Last year there were eight studies, using seven consultants. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Can the Min ister name the studies now or could he provide that for me? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There was the manufacturing sector one that I referred to. There was one dealing with technology delivery mechanisms which was related to the restructuring of the Manitoba Research Council and the technology programs in the department. There was a joint investment search initiative.

There was the additional one dealing with telecommunications issues, and there was one done on lease-purchase policy; and then there's some ongoing in forma tion, strategic information from Canada Trend Report and Decima. There's provision this year within that budget to do approximately eigh t mediu m-sized studie s and a numb er of smaller studies. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The study on investment search, the word "search" is a little confusing to me. Investment search, is that a study on basically what the government should be searc hing for, I guess? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: That one was a small study of $10, 000, done by the 181 group which was looking at a numb er of investment opportunities in Manitoba and having the consultants try to match them up with some com panies that migh t be interested in those opportunities. It was $10, 000.00. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) -pass; 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (d)

(1) Commu nications: Salaries; 1. (d)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, what are the num bers involved here? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are three staff persons; a director, a graphic artist and an information writer, which is the same as last year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I understand Mr. Weppler is no longer at the head of this department. Am I correct, and has somebody else taken over? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Weppler is on leave of absence. The director of this unit is director of the unit in Industry, Trade and Technology, and is also the director of the commun ications branch in the Jobs Fund.

The acting director is Mr. Tim Myers, who does not show in this appropriation, but is on the Jobs Fund staff, but is acting director of the branch which has the two arms. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This

section does the advertising or sets the policy for the advertising on the Jobs Fund? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, the branch in the Jobs Fund does that. This branch looks after the needs of the 2795

Monday, 10 June, 1985 department such as the material that's prepared for specific industry advertising like the farm machinery initiatives that we advertise in the United States, the aerospace advertising that was done in a number of forms, brochures like 'Investing in Manitoba', audio visuals for our trade staff to take out to trade shows, exhibits and those kind of things. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's a rather extensive film being shown by the government regarding Manitoba. Does that come out of this? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, it was paid for out of this appropriation last year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, where is that film basically being used? Is it being used in Manitoba or is it being used in other parts of the country, in North America, or is it of the type of film or length that you can carry around easily to show people or . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, it's in film and video form, so it can be used either on a screen or it can be used with a video cassette operation. It's used both internally here for groups or people that come into Manitoba looking at opportunities here or people from other governments or other agencies. It's also been used out of the province.

It was used by the Premier on his trip to Sou theast Asia last year. I've used it in Montreal, Toron to, Minn eapo lis on our busine ss outreach initiatives there and it's used in those kind of forms. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The appr opriation of Other Expenses is the same and of course the film came out of the appropriation last year, as the Minister mentioned. Are there extensive plans or something of that nature being done again? If you're not doing a film, are you increasing the other type of advertising now that you have the film? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There was a major indu strial development booklet prepared beginning part of this fiscal year. We've also made a numb er of additional folders. We're looking at more print material and some lower level, lower budget audio visual material that can be used by our trade staff at the various trade shows that they go to, so we'll really be just changing the focus. The film itself will need up dating probably later this year, but it just means adjusting the present film, not shooting from start again. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: The advert ising in this Communi cations Branch then, is it directed and used to encourage investment and the word "used" with indu stry, etc. That's the question. Is it being used throughout Manitoba Cham bers of Commerce and things of this nature, or is it being used for industry to encourage investment? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Most of the advertising is outside of Manitoba. Some is targeted in industrial development campaigns in places like Min neapolis and Chicago. It's also advertising in some trade publications related to both industrial and exporter trade development.

There is some co-op advertising that's done in the farm machiner y equipm ent area and the same in the aerospace, we've done some co-op advertising efforts; but it's basically outside of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (dX1) -pass; 1. (dX2)-pass. 1. (eX1) Financial and Administrative Services,

(1) Salaries; 1. (eX2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: As I understand it, this is the department that takes care of the libr ary, the filing and all of the admin istration of the department, if I'm not mistaken. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, that's correct. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The salaries are the same. The Other Expe nditure increase is just - I was going to say "just", I wasn't looking at it very good, it's approxima tely $10 0,000 more. Has there been some new equipment or ... HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The incr ease is ju st over $90,000.00. $2,000 is just general operating expenditure increases; $88,000 is the purcha se of a departmental computer system, the fi rst ph ase of that for the department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: $88,000 for the first phase. What size is it and how many phases? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Phase one is developed as the basic word processing and personal computer base for a good deal of the staff of the department. It's structured that it can stand alone or it can be enhanced by a further phase in the future if funds and the need avails itself. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: The Industry and Technology Department has now got a computer worth $88,000.00. Is there no ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: It's not a comp uter worth $88,000.00. It's a computer system. I mean, that's a num ber of work stations, 20 termin als and work stations, so it's not just one compu ter, it's a comple te system for key personnel in the whole department. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I'm sure no expert on computers. It seems like a lot of money. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (eX1 )-pass; 1. (eX2)-pass. There will be no resolution on this item until we go back to the Minister's Salar y.

Item No. 2, 2.(a)( 1) Adminis tration, Industry and Trade, Salaries; 2.(aX2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chair ma n, what is this expenditure, Provides planning and direction to Industry and Trade? What is the salaries of this expenditure or the salary? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This is only the Assistant Deputy Minister , Mr. Eliesen, and his secretary and his expenses. 2796

Monday, 10 June, 1985 As you know, he's the ADM over the Industry and Trade Branch, so it's shown separately like that but that's all that's contained in this line. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Just one salary in there? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Two. The ADM and the secretary to the ADM. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) (1) -pass; 2.(a)(2)- pass. 2.(b)( 1) Industry: Salaries; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could just give me a list of the development officers that they have, the numb er that they have, and the industries that they're working with. HON. E. KOSTVRA: There's 11 development officers not counting the director who is a working director. They're broken out as follows.

There's a senior development officer looking after the machi nery area; a senior dev elopment officer look ing after in vestor id entifica tion; a sen ior development officer in apparel and entrepreneurial immigr ation; another senior development officer in identification and dealing with the mineral sector; senior development officer in the aerospace sector; a senior development officer in the food product sector; the management of electrical and mechanical industries and with that person there's a development officer for the electrical and electronics area; manager of resource industries; and then there's a business analyst and a person working in the general business investment area.

MR. F. JOHNSTON: Did you mention wood products or is that now amalgama ted with something? HON. E. KOSTVRA: In response to the question, that's part of the resource industries, the wood products. I failed to mention two other positions that I missed. One is the senior development officer for food and heal th, and a sen ior dev elopment officer in the transportation equipment sector. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Are all the positions filled in this particular . . . HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just wrote down immigr ation. Is this where we would talk about the Hong Kong pffice? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, what is the present status of the Hong Kong office? I asked a question in the House regarding the office. The Mini ster said that there was a person that they had ready to take care of that office and then, of course, that fell through apparently and the Mini ster said he was very close to having the problem solved. What is the status at the present time? HON. E. KOSTVRA: There has been a person hired to staff that office.

The necessary visas have been applied for and are waiting approval and the staff person is working in Winnip eg getting orientated with the files from the development officer that was looking after this area here and we expect by the end of the month that the necessary approvals will be through and he will move to Hong Kong. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Has the person that's been hired, has he had experience with working in the Far East? HON. E. KOSTVRA: The person that was selected is Mr. Richard Walker.

He was formerly emplo yed in the Department of Business Development and Tourism as a busness analyst and was chosen because of his experience in Manitoba business. He was formerly in the private sector prior to coming on to the Department of Busine ss Development and Tourism and was involved working with the business sector that we're looking at for investment opportunities from people in Hong Kong. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there was certainly what seemed to be several people over in Hong Kong establishing this office and then I believe Mr.

Allden, if I'm not mistaken, I saw him on television at the Canadian Trade Show, I believe. What has the Hong Kong office cost the government at this point? We've been talking about it and we've made commitments over there of office space and everything and there still hasn't been anything firm put together as far as the Hong Kong office is concerned. HON. E.

KOSTVRA: The situation, as the member may be aware, was that somebody was hired and had agreed to go into that office I guess some five months ago and at the last moment decided he did not want to go after us spending a couple of months going through a process to find a suitable candida te, so it had to be restarted. At that point, we had also come to an arrangement with Richardson Greenshields for use of their office space and secretarial supp ort. The cost of that is $3,000 per month for the office space, furnishing and secretarial support, telephone answering and related adminis trative-secretarial 'services.

MR. F. JOHNSTON: The office that Mr. Walker will go into is located in the Richardson Greenshields office? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And to date it's just been more or less an answering service? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Can the Minister give us the budget for the Hong Kong Office for the 19 85-86 year? HON. E. KOSTVRA: The total cost is $120,000, which includes the salary cost, travel, and the office expenses, the total cost of the operation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, what investment have we had in Manitoba from Hong Kong to date? HON. E.

KOSTVRA: There has been 350 applications or inquir ies with respect to peo ple look ing at 2797

Monday, 10 June, 1985 investments and opportunities in Manitoba. There has been 85 visas issued by the Federal Government under their entrepreneurial program. The investments we have to date relate to approximately $8 million. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Of the $8 million investment, what percentage of that investment or how much of that investment is into manuf acturing? I know that there's probably been in vestment in apart me nt blocks, restaurants or something of that type. What has the investment been as far as manuf acturing or assembly in Mani toba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't have the details.

I can provide it to the member subsequent. Manufacturing has been the smaller of the areas. The ma jor investments have been in the service sector. There has been some in man ufacturing. One that comes to mind is Weston Pl astics, which was an operation that emplo ys, I think, around 30 people in the province. There has been a num ber of others, but the majority have been in the service sector. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Have the investments in the service sector been a creation of new jobs or have they just been in a purchase of existing busi nesses? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: They are all new jobs, because that's a condition of the Federal Government granting of the visa. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Then the service industry are new busine sses? They wer en't busine sses that were purchased? They are all brand new busi nesses? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Most of them have been new busine sses that have been started up. Some have been existing busi nesses with an incr ease of employment in order to meet the visa requirements. MR. F. JOHNSTON: We've had 85 visas and we've had $8 million worth of investment.

Can the Minister supply us with a list sometime of the new busine sses or expansions that have been created by that $8 million investment? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes I will. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Walker is going to be looking for investment in Manitoba, for people to come to Manitoba and invest in Manitoba. But is the office over there going to also work two ways? Will Mr. Walker be working to sell or to encourage people in that area to buy Manitoba products? In other words, will he be in liaison with the trade part of the department? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, the focus of it is on the investment initiative, but the office will be also dealing with and working on trade export areas, both in Hong Kong and other areas of Asia. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Does the Mini ster feel that having an office there, at the cost we have been discussing of our $120,000, is warranted; rather than use the Canadian Emba ssy that's available and the staff that's available to them? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have a num ber of comments.

One is that under the federal entrepreneurship program, the province has a distinct role in evaluating any of the applications that are received for a particular province, so there is a significant role for the Provincial Government in regard to that federal initiative. So the value of having somebody working there in terms of developing the interests and also being in a position of first-hand or first-line evaluation is important.

The second factor is that this is an area that a number of governments - I believe now five or six provincial governments -have opened similar offices in that area and we feel it's im portant to exploit Ma ni toba's opportunities in that regard. The final point is we do believe that it will provide returns, but we are going to monitor very closely, in both with our agreement with Richardson Greenshields and the employment contract with Mr. Walker for a one-year period, so that we can evaluate and decide whether or not we're getting our money's worth and the benefit which we believe we will be able to prove.

But in any case, we have set a time period to both arrangements so that we can monitor it and make adjustments or decisions, after a period of having that person in place, working on our behalf there. MR. F. JOHNSTON: So then I'm correct in assuming what the Minister said, that if things do not go well for this year or the following year, you have no obligation to continue. You could pull out and then use the Canadian Emba ssy. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, is there any co­ ordination or contact with Mr.

Walker's office and the var ious reg ional development corporat ions in the province or how is that activity . . . What type of co­ ordination would take place? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: A few points. I don't know if the member was here when I indicated where Mr. Walker comes from. He comes from the Depart ment of Busine ss Deve lopment and Tourism so he's quite familiar and was working with the regional development corporations because that is the front line department for interaction with them. We also provide, through our Industry Branch generally, and the same is true of Mr.

Walker, detailed information on the various regions in the province, including information and contacts for the various regional development corporations as they exist in many of the regions of the province. We will direct enquir ies to them if there's an indication of interest in a particular area or a particular industry or investment opportunity and certainly the flow is also the other way, from the regional de velopment corporations into our department, our branch. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Is this the area where it deals with the office in Brandon, covering various enqui ries on economic development?

I believe I'm referring to Mr. 2798

Monday, 10 June, 1985 Davidge who covers the Swan River area. Would this be ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, he's an emplo yee of the Department of Business Development and Tourism, not of this department. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( b)(1) -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: In the aerospace industry -the Min ister, I believe it was in the paper; I don't think he made a press release on it that there was a possi bility of having a small airc raft built in Manitoba at Gi mli. Is that still a prospect? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: These were discussions with a company called Equite or Aircraft GMBH of Erbach, West Germany. There were discussions with them as a result of a Provincial Government and private sector initiative to Germany about a year ago now where they ind icated some interest in the devel opment of man ufacturing a new type of light air craft in the province. The discussions are continuing, but at this point they're far from any successful conclusion. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank God! Mr.

Chairman, I don't say that facetiously and I'm not referring to Saunders Aircraft at this particular point, but we did have an experience with a helicopter company and we kept saying, yes, we have Gimli; yes, we have the facility; we can make arrangements to have the facility work properly -but where's your money? The fact that they could never produc e any concrete pla n for their financing, although there's a lawyer in town said they could -it was never there and I have the files to prove that -and the airplane didn't have any certification.

I would hope that if the Minister is planning to continue his negotiations with that company that they at least have some certification for the aircra ft and some plan for sales, etc., and that they produce their own financing if they want to come here. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I agree with the member's comments and I indicated that I wouldn't call what's taken place with that company negotiations. There have rather been discussions and I don't believe they are going anywhere. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: What is the aerospace group doing or what is the work they are doing with Bristol, as far as the overhaul for the F-18 in Manitoba? How does that stand at the present time? I understand that in September decisions will be made, as far as I know, or my information is that McDonnell Douglas will do some of that work for a short period of time and then it will have to be done in Canada. Certainly Bristol has had the overhaul for the old 105 and if we lose that overhaul business in Manitoba, it could be very critical to our aerospace indus try.

At the present time, what is being done with Bristol to assist them in getting the share of that busi ness? The F-18, as you know, we did not get as much of the contracts that were being let across Canada as we would have liked. Certainly it was not satisfactory at all, but the indication of the overhaul was something that we felt would be ours for a long-term basis and long-term jobs. How does it stand? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not quite sure about the latest in that specific area. We, on a regular basis, have been working with Bristol.

In fact, some of our staff are with Bristol right now in Paris at the air show and we have been working with them on a number of offset programs with the Federal Government. I don't know what the specific status of the F-18 project is, but I will check on that and get the information for the member . MR. F. JOHNSTON: I'm sure the Minister realizes the im portance of that work. I use the words "remaining here" because we have been doing it on the 10 5. The

article in the paper, I believe last week, regarding Standard Aero possibly doing some work for a General Electric engine. Is that regarded as part of the offsets pertaining to the agreement on the generators at Limestone? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, that could be part of the offset agreement with CGE. It's dependent on the Federal Government purchasing helicopter engines that would utilize a General Electric engine which could be produc ed in part by Standard Aero, so it's conditional on those factors, bu t it wou ld qualif y under the agreement, CGE and Manitoba Hydro. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, what negotiations have taken place? I refer to the announcement where they said there'd be $10 million worth of investment in Manitoba. Is that $10 million worth of investment that will be physical plants, manufacturing, in the Province of Manitoba? I'll add as well as this, offset, because the agreement also said that there would be as many jobs in Manitoba as there would to manufacture the generators someplace else. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, the one is the job creation relative to the plant itself; the other is the $10 million investment in the manufacturing sector. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, GE is probably one of the largest corporations in North America, if not in the world. They would be at all times in the corporation making decisions for expansion. Every year they would have, I would imagine, the board of directors of the company both in the United States and Canada deciding what expansion would take place. Have the negotiations started with GE as to what expansion they will put as far as physical plants in the Province of Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, there are ongoing negotiations with CGE in regard to that.

They are identifying a numb er of pos sible options with respect to their investment activity in the province and that's currently under negotiation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The fact that they received the contract from the Hydro without tender, does that mean 2799

Monday, 10 June, 1985 that the government will have some say as to which ones will come? The Mi ni ster mentions their investigating as to which ones which will come. Does the Manitoba Government have some say in which ones will come? In other words, if GE makes a decision that the government doesn't believe will be as long-term jobs as they would hope they would be, do you have the right to say, no, we want something else? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, we don't have any veto power over their decision.

I would expect that CGE would be making investments where they would expect to have some permanent ongoing economic activity resulting from that investment, so I don't think they would be investing in something that would not, in their view, provide some future. If it was something that we felt very strongly about that wasn't in our collective best interests, then we would certainly be bringing those points to them. Obviou sly, it's their money and they're going to ensure that the investment is made wisely from their corporate and business standpoint. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I agree with the Min ister that it's their money, but they received a contract without tender and the thing that we want in Manitoba is long-term jobs. There are occasions and it used to happen quite often with OREE and other plans, let's say, where a company could estimate that they would have their money back and their profit out of the product within so many years and from that point on would not be overly interested in carrying it on.

I would hope that the Mini ster would have some input or certainly would have some lever, some way to make sure that the investment in Manitoba is going to be long-term for the benefit of Manitobans. I'm fully aware that it's their money and I'm fully aware that this company doesn't throw away money unnecessari ly, but I think that the government has to be satisfied that what they are doing is going to be of long-term benefit to Manitoba. HON. E.

KO STYRA: There are prov1s1ons in the agreement for the discussion of any of the investments and there also are provisions in the agreement with respect to defining what is meant by long-term jobs resulting from that investment and there are provisions to ensure that that's enforced in terms of the agreement with General Electric. MR. F. JOHNSTON: We've mentioned the investment of physical factories which would create long-term employment; we've mentioned the possibility depending on the Federal Government's decision to buy the helicop ter engine.

That one is in doubt and, as I understand it, the agreement says that there will be as many jobs provided in Manitoba as it takes to manufacture the generators. What are other spin-offs are GE looking at with Manitoba manufacturers? How are the discussions moving along on that basis? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The total package of the offsets includ es $2 million worth of investment in Northern Ma ni toba. The $10 mill ion that we've just been discussing is a further commitment of a minimum of 10 0 long-term jobs in a high technology area with a target of 16 0, but 10 0 is what is written into the agreement.

There is also agreement on sourcing of 15 percent of Manitoba components in the contract, that is products manu factured or produc ed in Manitoba. There's also provisions for a technology transfer program to work with manu facturers in Manitoba and we've already started those discussions and brought various Manitoba manufacturers together with CGE just over a month ago and we're following up on that interaction between General Electric and various Manitoba companies. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the generators will not really be generating electricity until 19 93 or so.

Does General Electric have to start this investment im mediately in the province or in the near future? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We don't have the detail of the

schedule but there is a

schedule in the agreement that provides for the related offset investments and actions to take pla ce on a

schedule basis from now until 19 91. MR. F. JOHNSTON: What input did the department have in the writing of the agree ment? Was the agreement done by Energy and Mines or did this department have input into the agreement? HON. E. KOST YRA: The agreement is with the Manitoba Energy Authority, however a senior member of the department was .involved in the discussions and negotiations with GE ; part of the negotiating team for the province, for the Manitoba Energy Authority. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The meetings that were held with Manitoba indu stry were done by this department or were they done by the Energy Department?

HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch the question. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well you mentioned meetings that were held with Manitoba manufacturers and GE . Were those arrangements made and done by this department or were they done by the Energy Authority? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Join tly, both by our department and the Energy Authority. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, on the machinery part of the department, I imagine that that machinery could be -it's farm machinery, I'm aware of that. What is happening at the present with Vicon? Have they made any decision as to where they're going to locate in the province? HON.

E. KOSTYRA: They haven't made their decision yet. I'm informed they're looking at four different locations or four different buildings. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The company is being allowed to do the investigation and make the decision themselves as to where they go? I again realize it's their money. Has the department been working with them on the basis of where there is trained people, etc., or are they just working on their own? 2800

Monday, 10 June, 1985 HON. E. KOSTVRA: Staff of the department have been working with them and we're encouraging them to locate in an area of the province that has the necessary skilled people and is in need of further manufacturing facili ties. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Are the towns and some municip alities making presentations to them? Are they being open to hearing presentations from development authorities throughout all parts of the province? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes they have been working with the local communitie s where they've been looking at locations outside of the City of Winnipeg.

They are looking, as I understand it, at the possibility of Winnipeg, but we're also encouraging them to look outside of the City of Winnipeg at a number of communi ties within reasonably close proximity to Winnipeg, because that is one of their requirements. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The agreement that the province has with Vicon for the $400,000 and the $600,000 with technology, the Mini ster answered the question in the House, that the technology they would develop here would be manufactured here.

Is there a holdback in the agreement regard ing the advancement of funds until Vicon satisfies the government that they're living up to the agreement? HON. E. KOSTVRA: There's two portions to the agreement. One is the $400,000 assistance with the capital costs, and that is payable on the basis of them making their capital investment and is tied to the job performance of 131 jobs through the period to 19 89.

The further $600,000 loan is conditional on a further investment in research and development and there's a sched ule for payment of that based on their investment in research and development and it is also tied to job performance as against the 131 jobs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: In other words, the Mini ster has to be satisfied that the company is living up to all of the agreement before he releases money according to the

schedule naturally? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the furniture industry in Manitoba used to be one that was flourishing, in fact, we were supplying a tremendous amount of the furnit ure req ui rements to Western Canada. Is the furniture industry still working and advancing in the Province of Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes, it's still an area that has done quite well in the past few years. One of the major furniture manuf acturers, Palliser, recently had a plant expansion and in recent times they have looked at further expansion but have not done anything to date.

I think overall the furniture sector is in relatively good shape. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there certainly seem to be problems in the apparel industry. Certainly, we hear about one problem in the past The development of the apparel industry in Manitoba is very important 2801 to the Province of Mani !oba and there have been times when the apparel industry has been referred to as sweatshops, etc., but I would say in my own experience from exam ining and going through many of the plants that are in Manitoba they are well lit, well ventilated.

The working conditions are probably better than many apparel indus tries in other areas. Certainly, there have to be agreements between the union and the companies, but we seem to be having problems in the apparel industry in that they are looking at other areas as far as expansion is concerned. We have the example of one and I'm told that there are people in the apparel industry who, if they are looking at expansion, they are very seriously looking at other areas of Canada to expand.

I would hope the Mi nister does not regard that industry as one that we don't want because it does employ a tremendous num ber of people. I'm fully aware of the government policies that the Minister outlined in his opening statement about conditions and with people, but what is the Mini ster doing to try and solve the concerns of the indu stry and what seem to be problems in the industry at the present time? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Well, there's no question that we view the apparel and clothing industry as an im portant one to the Manitoba economy.

It's been traditionally an im portant part of the Manitoba economy and still is today in terms of economic activity and creator of empl oyment for Manitobans. There has been some expansion, some investment made by a number of clothing firms and firms in the related areas like Standard Knitting, Western Glove, White Buffalo Mills, Dominion Tanners -in existing plant in Manitoba. Not all of it has meant expansion of emplo yment, but it has been investment that has ensured the profitability and the efficiency of those operations in the Province of Manitoba.

There has been ongoing discussion with the Manitoba Fashion Institute and staff of our department, and I've met with them on a number of occasions to discuss their concerns as an industry. They relate to a number of areas; the discussion related to trade is one that is high on their agenda; concerns with respect to various legislative matters including labour legislation, and the dialogue has continued. The only company I'm aware of that has made any plans for expansion out of the province is Tan Jay. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: According to the reports, and I'm referring to the reports in the paper that Tan Jay has had a very large expansion of busine ss over the past two years, but they had concerns regarding Manitoba and their expansion has been in the Lakehead and in other areas. In other words, Manitoba has not seen expansion by Tan Jay in the past two years and it is an international company that has a tremendous name in the fashion industry throughout North America and even off the continent. The company was started here by Mr.

Nygard who is a Manitoba-born-and-raised person and became a very large entrepreneur and built a very large industry. I think that there should be some effort made to work with him on his concerns as to what they are. Whether you feel that you can solve or not is one thing, but it

Monday, 10 June, 1985 would seem to me that there has to be something done to work with this gentleman to try and encourage him -or find out the reasons why he's not investing or expanding in Manitoba. Sure, we see the reports in the paper, but there are usually ways of solving these problems if people can sit down and discuss them. I personally never found an organization that wanted everything all one way. Is there nothing that can be done or is there anything being done to overcome the problems that Tan Jay feel they have in the Province of Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have met dir ectly with -not Mr.

Nygard, he didn't want -or didn't meet with me - I shouldn't say he didn' t want to meet. I don't know why he didn' t meet with me but I did write to him some time ago. I guess it was a year ago when I read or heard reference made by the Leader of the Opposition to a company that was going to be expanding in Thunder Bay -it was made in 1984, I believe, in reply to the Throne Speech. That obvious ly, as Mini ster of Industry, caught my interest and I had staff research it to determine for me what company was being referenced by the Leader of the Opposition and I was told that it was Tan Jay.

As a result of that, I wrote to Mr. Nygard suggesting I'd like to meet with him because I had rumours of possible expansion plans of their company in Thunder Bay. As a result of that letter, the President of Tan Jay, Mr. Batte, along with, I believe, one other representative, the Vice-President of Finance, Court Joel, met with me in June of last year, at which time I asked them to talk about their plans in the province and whether or not they were considering expansion outside of the province. At that time they told me that they had concerns regard ing labour legislation.

At that point, on June 5th, the labour legislation was not tabled in the House; it was tabled, I believe, about a week subsequent to June 5th but there was considerable speculation as to what might be in that particular legislation. As the member will recall, there was a paper -we call it a White Paper -prior to that, outlining a number of areas that might be consider ed in the bill and I asked Mr. Batte directly which areas were of particular concern with respect to the White Paper. He indicated two areas.

One was the expansion of the powers of the Manitoba Labour Board and the second was the provision for final offer selection. As the member will recall, a final offer selection was not contained in the subsequent amendme nts that were made to The Labour Relations Act subsequent to June 5th of last year. Also at that meeting I indicated to him that I would send him a copy of the bill as soon as it was tabled and asked him to call me if he had any specific concerns in regard to what was tabled. He did not call me after the bill had been tabled.

Also at that meeting he indic ated that they had concerns with the actions of the Manitoba Labour Board which I obviously couldn't resolve because the Labour Board is an appointed body of representatives of both labour and management and, as the member is aware, acts in a quasi-judicial fashion and obviously is not under the in fluen ce of the government, outside of the legislative framework for the Labour Board or in the appointments that may be made to the Labour Board. 2802 He also indicated that they had ongoing concerns or problems related to their union and one particular representative of that union.

To that, I indicated that the government was not in a position to influence the freely ch osen bargaining agent of the workers. So those were the areas that were raised when I met with Mr. Batte at my request. It was a request that was made to Mr. Nygard. When he made his latest comments and I read of them in the paper one morning and also heard Mr. Nygard on CBC radio and I was quite surprised at what he said, to the point that I got a transcript of his actual words so I was sure that my ears weren't deceiving me.

I wrote him, expressing my concern about his comments and suggesting that I would be willing to meet with him to discuss his concerns. He didn't write back to me, but Mr. Batte wrote back to me outlining that they were concerned with respect to labour law and other matters and also raised some other matters that he didn' t previously raise with me. So my offer still stands with respect to them, that I would be willing to meet with them to see what possibilities there are for helping them resolve some of their problems.

I know that the Mini ster of Labour has indicated that the services of the Department of Labour are available and I believe were utilized in bringing about a resolve to their particular contract dispute that fortunately was resolved just a couple of weeks ago. Both my department and the Department of Labour stands willing to assist them in whatever way is feasible. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's obviously something wrong. The indication of discussions that I've had with some people in the company are that the feeling is that they're just not really welcome in this province.

The indication was made to me that they informed the Minister, yourself, that they had the feeling from other departments within the government that they really didn't care whether they were in Manitoba or they weren't. I only relate these things and I have reason to believe that the people are straightforward. But, as I said, there's obviously something wrong. I had the opportunity to attend a fashion show of the new spring line of Tan Jay with some other people and on that particular occasion, Mr.

Batte announced that all of the fringe benefits that were available to the office personnel, etc., such as glasses and medical and every thing like that would be made avai lable to everybody that works in that compa ny. At the same time, he announced a pension plan that he was putting in for Tan Jay emplo yees. The fringe benefits he offered and the pension plan that he apparently has placed before the emp loyees of the Tan Jay Company are not available to any other of the fashion industry that he knows of in North America. It would seem that we have an emplo yer that is interested in his people .

A MEMBER: When was that? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Exactly a month-and-a-half ago. He has a feeling or the company has a feeling for emp loyees. He's not a person that was born with any gold or silver spoon in his mouth and he has a feeling for people and his emplo yees. He has their concern at

Monday, 10 June, 1985 heart or else I don't think he would have announced those fringe benefits and that pension plan, which is not available to anybody else in the fashion industry. Yet Mr. Nygard is having problems, he feels, operating in the Province of Manitoba, and I think that there has to be an effort on the government side, whether you feel you've made the effort or not -and I'm sure the Min ister has -but we do not want to lose any more of that indu stry or that company. We would prefer to have any investment or new investment that he's making being done in Manitoba.

Now I also am aware, because he started to look at the Toronto situation a long time ago -we all know that -but you know he is a very large international company and he has to look at that particular area, as far as expansion of his company is concerned . But he is also now, instead of shipping in the United States from Manitoba, he's making more contracts all the time in the United States to make the apparel that he's selling in the United States and he hasn't had any pressure to do that.

He has a feeling that his company is not welcome in Manitoba and he has a feeling that the Labour Board decisions always come down against them, although he hires probably the best people that he can find, legal ly, to analyze the act, to advise him whether he is wrong or not, and yet he loses all the time. Then he has the situation where it would seem that the union he has in that plant believes he's a terrible emp loyer and this doesn't seem to be the case. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Mini ster that everything be done possible, to try and keep that indu stry here and see that some further investment can be done in Manitoba. Because I assure you, I witnessed his sales staff that he has and they were all there from North America -and the fashions that he's presenting to the people in North America, with all of his different lines; the comments from the ladies that were there were very good, so you can only see them going up and we should be getting the benefit of that in the Province of Manitoba. HON. E.

KOSTVRA: I don't know what the member suggests by doing everything that's possible. I have met with them and will continue to meet with them if they feel it's productive. As I point out, I've suggested on a number of occasions that I'm willing to meet with Mr. Nygard and he's never chosen to take advantage of that opportunity. I think we are willing to sit down with them and to help work with some of their problems, and there are some areas, I'm afraid, that we will not be able to help with his problems.

Without getting into the kind of details of the situation as may exist with Tan Jay and their collective bargaining agent and the Labour Board, I would just draw the member's attention to some of the kind of overview facts, vis-a-vis the labour relations clima te in this province. The fact is I'm not aware of anyone else who has brought the kind of criticism towards the Manitoba Labour Board as a group, as has been levied by Tan Jay. I think, as the member is aware, the board is made up of both labour and management people. There is a chair person.

There are one or two or more vice­ chairpersons, including I believe one of the chairs is someone who was appoi nted by the previous government and is, I believe, well respected in terms of being a chair of a labour board. I'm not aware of all that many other employers that are having difficulties with the Manitoba Labour Board, not to suggest that there aren't some that are having difficulty; nor am I suggesting that there may not be unions that feel they're having difficulty with decisions of the Labour Board. But I think, overall, the system that we have in Manitoba works well.

I think another point that should be made is in terms of our overall labour relations, labour-management cli mate in the province. We do have the second-best record of work stoppages in the country, next to PEI, which isn't quite in comparison to a province like Manitoba. I think that has to indicate something about the attitude of management towards unions and an attitude of unions towards management, that they are able to negotiate and to resolve their differences in the vast majority of cases in the province. In fact our record is better than any other province.

The other area I find a bit perplexing, in terms of his decision vis-a-vis Ontario, is the fact that the labour­ relations legislation there is not that much different from what it is in Manitoba. In fact some of the ideas, the radical ideas that we incorpor ated into labour law changes last year, were borrowed from legislation that was put in place in the Province of Ontario. As I under stand the situation there now, there's even thoughts of expanding or making signi ficant changes to labour legislation in the Province of Ontario in the very near future.

So I don't know how that environment is so much different from the environment in Manitoba except to point out that their record, on a percentage basis of time lost due to strikes or lock-outs, is signif icantly hig her than that in the Province of Manitoba. So I think when one sits back and looks at it, the problems in the labour-relations area, from my vantage point that Tan Jay is having is somewhat out of step with the majority of emp loyers and unions in the province. Tha t doesn't sug gest that there aren't problems there.

As with any relationship between two parties, it's not always black or white between one party or the other and I would hope, in terms of their difficulties in that two-party process, that hopefully the recent agreement is a signal that there's going to be impr oved relations there. I know the Minister of Labour is intent on working with them to try to ensure that that would be the case. In terms of their concerns as an industry, I am hoping to discuss it with them anytime, but as I ind icated, when I met with them the areas that they discussed, two of them were areas that I could not influence.

One was the actual relations between them and their union. The second was their perception that the Manitoba Labour Board was patently unfair towards Tan Jay, and I didn' t share that perception. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the Mini ster and most mem bers receive these reports regarding the CPR and the tremendous expansion that they're doing regard ing the double trackage in B.C.-and there will be some in Al berta. What is being do ne by the department to try and obtain some of this work for the 2803

Monday, 10 June, 1985 manu facturers in Manitoba? You make the statement that you put Manitoba man ufacturers together with CGE. Wha t has been done to pu t Ma ni toba manu facturers together with CPR as far as finding out who their contractors and subcontractors are so that Manitoba companies who will be able to go after some of that business?

I'm not one that belie ves that indu stry has to have its hand held and walked down there personally or anything of that nature, but some of our industries are small in a way that they don't have the personnel or the research departments or the people to really know what is happening. One of the things the department can do is make that knowledge available to Manitoba manu facturers so that they can go after the business if they so desire. What is being done regard ing this? It says $600 million spending plan. That was back in Janu ary, 19 85. In Dece mber there's another report.

There are reports come in reg ula rly of the CPR expansion and the work being done in Western Canada. Mani toba has had a lot of indus tries that have been suppl iers to Western Canada. Now, I know Dominion Bridge has had a contract for quite a few of the bridges that are going to be done in this project, but they are a company that is of a size that has the facilities that I spoke of that others don't have. Are there efforts being made to put the sma ller man ufacturers in Manitoba together with the CPR? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There have been a numb er of activities related to CPR that we've been engaged in at political level.

Both myself and the Premier met last fall with the Chairman of the Board and the President of CPR and other people in Montreal to discuss with them their ongoing and future plans with respect to CPR in the Province of Manitoba relating to the areas that the member touched on, and also how they view their future in terms of investment in the Province of Manitoba, expansion of their plant and activities directly in Manitoba and also how we could expand the sourcing of their activities in the Province of Manitoba.

We also on another occasion brought to the Economic and Resource Investment Comm ittee of Cabinet, the local Vice-President of the CPR to give us a more detailed presentation of their activities in the province. We had a discussion with various Mi nisters on the Comm ittee of Cabinet and staff regarding their activities and how we could get further activities from CP Rail in the provin ce. In addition, at the staff lev el, there is ongoing involvement with CPR through a numb er of areas. One is the kind of area that the member touched on.

We had a major transportation seminar with CPR and a num ber of smaller Manitoba companies to attempt to match them up with CPR in terms of their purchasing their activities in Manitoba and beyond. We've also been looking at investment opportunities for other manufacturers who might either expand in new product areas, or manufacturers that might locate in Manitoba as a result of rail activity.

There are a numb er of initiatives that are ongoing and we keep fairly close liaison with CPR, in fact, with both railways, because they are major generators of economic activity in their own right and in the various spi n-offs that they provide for other Manitoba businesses. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine. The Min ister has mentioned all of the initiatives that are being done, but the September issue of this report, September, 19 84, starts out by a big headline saying, "Wanted: More Western Suppliers.

CP Rail will purchase more than $250 million worth of goods and services from Western Canada suppliers this year, but the railway wants to expand its shopping list in the West even more. The railway is looking for new suppliers, new products, even new methods and it has launched an information program to help Western Canadians sell their goods or services to the railway." That's back as far as September of last year. I can only ask, other than the meetings that have been held, has there any busi ness come to Manitoba?

According to these reports, this big machine that's drilling a tunnel through the mountain is well on its way to getting the job done and if we're not receiving the contracts now, it could be doubtful if we will be receiving them, because these orders will have been placed. Other than Dominion Bridge, what Manitoba companies have received orders or are benefiting after the work the department has done? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I indicated that we were working and have worked with CP and a variety of Manitoba companies to help them be part of the sourcing for some of that work. A number of them have been successfu l.

If the member is asking me for details, I'd have to survey all of the companies to find out exactly how much they did get in incremental business. I think you have to recognize that while those numbers are nice and flashy on the multicoloured brochures or reports from CP, a lot of that is related directly to the construction costs of double tracking that line through the mountains in British Columbia which is on-site construction activity which directly has little benefit to the Province of Manitoba but has some indir ect benefit in terms of activity.

We did search out some 250 companies throughout North America that are involved in manufacturing related to the rail indus try and having success; one man ufacturer that has located here as a result of that ini tiative. We will continue to do that in terms of their ongoing activities because the transporta tion system is undergoing change and expansion throughout Western Canada. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I recognize that they are glossy reports.

They're very good looking reports, at least the Minis ter had mentione d the construction that was taking place, but it also says in here, ". . . and $600 million capital spending planned, and $700 million more for maintenance. Even record upgrading and expansion doesn't exceed the cost of just keeping the railway in top form. "In addition to its capital program, CP expects to spend more than $700 million in 19 85 on maintenance of its 24,000 km network.

The amount would be used to maintain both main-line and branch-line tracks and structures, locomotives, freight and work equipment." We're now approaching within a couple of weeks, six months into the year 19 85, and I would ask the Mini ster if we're getting any of that business? 2804

Monday, 10 June, 1985 HON. E. KOSTVRA: I know we are getting some. If the member is asking for specific figur es, I'd have to get into a survey of the companies involved in Manitoba. But we have made efforts to ensure that they are matched up with CPR and will continue to do that with respect to both CPR and CNR. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in this particular branch is the sourcing group that puts manuf acturers in Manitoba together with jobs that are going on and there are books available -the Manitoba Sourcing Directories.

There are two of them that tell you the names of companies and what they do and then there's the one that says if you're looking for such-and-such an item, that you contact a specific business. Those books have been available for close to four and a half years now. There's the gas and petrochemical indus tries which were put together to benefit the manufacturers in the Province of Manitoba. In other words, a dir ectory that contractors throughout Western Canada or wherever, could have available to them so that they would recognize and know what can be produced or bought in the Province of Manitoba.

Are these being kept up-to-date and being used at the present time with contractors throughout Western Canada? Also I know that it's on the compu ter. I've been at the shows where somebody can walk up and say, "Do you make such-and-such in Manitoba?" The computer will tell you, "Yes or no," and if it's yes, where to go get it and how many people ma nufacture it, which means you could almo st have a phone-in to find out if Manitoba suppliers are capable of manufacturing many products.

Is that sourcing program being kept up-to-date and is it being used or is it being distributed to people who would use it to the benefit of Manitoba manuf acturers? HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes, it was upda ted as of last January and there are revised copies of the sourcing directories available and they are distributed to a variety of places. They receive quite extensive utilization and are of benefit, I'm told, by the private sector in Manitoba. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Is there a program of information being sent out to Manitoba manufacturers as to the different projects that are going on throughout Western Canada, so that they can peruse them and see if they are interested in voting on them or supplying any materials to it? HON. E. KOSTVRA: It's done on a basis of sectors or areas that there may be involvement. As an example, if there is a Federal Government project that relates to the aerospace industry, then staff will ensure that that information is related to companies that have the ability to compete on those kinds of projects.

If there are other projects that relate to the broader manufacturing sector, that information is dissemi nated to companies. There has been extensive information being gi ven to Ma ni toba com panie s related to Limestone and the various contracts and time lines with respect to those contracts that will flow from the Lime stone project. So it's done on kind of a case-by­ case basis, depending on the project and the area where it is involved. 2805 We also take companies to particular shows that relate to projects.

As an example, there are 12 companies that we've assisted to go to Calgary to one of the major oil shows there, related to developments in the oil industry in Alberta, where there may be some possibility for Manitoba companies to compete on some of those projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's now almost 10 o'clock. Do we have an inclination to finish at least this Item No. 2? MR. F. JOHNSTON: I think we could finish this item, Mr. Chairman, in rea sonable time. When I say reasonable, I won't be that long, but I would like to finish this item and then I would . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: That's what the Chairman wants to know.

The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There used to be an arrangement among the Ministers in the western provinces where we would inform one another -and it was done at the Western Economic Ministers' Conference -of the major projects that would be going on in our provinces. Is that still in effect? HON. E. KOSTVRA: I have not attended any meeting of Western Economic Ministers since I've been in portfolio. I'm told that that system stopped around the same time as the major projects in Alberta came to a halt.

There has been some general discussion at the Western Premiers' Conference on related areas but they tend to be in the broader context, in terms of transportation, in terms of trade or other issues, though there has been some discussions of late at an official's level to revise that consultation between the Western Economic Ministers. We have had, on the national front, much more consultation on economic policy where all the Economic Min isters from across Canada, including the Federal Mini ster, Provincial Mini sters and territorial representatives have met on a bi-monthly basis.

Every two months we meet with Sinclair Stevens to review areas of common conc ern rega rding ec onomic development; so it's taking place at a national level dealing with a variety of issues related to economic development. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the transportation section. We've heard of the new bus that's being developed for use up North. We've heard of the work that's being done for the cars that are going to be developed so that they can be used to Churchill. What is being done regarding that research in the Province of Ma nitoba?

Is the province in volved with these companies in such a way that the manufacturing will be done and continue to be done by the railways, in one case, and I'm not sure who would manufacture the bus that has been developed, what work is being done to see that the manufacturing is carried on and continued in the Province of Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTVRA: In terms of the rail bus, I don't believe that will result in significant manufac turing of

Monday, 10 June, 1985 those kind of vehicles. The one that has been produc ed for trial in No rthern Manito ba, the Wabowden to Thompson run, is a passenger bus, an older passenger bus that was converted for use on rails. In terms of the devel opment of the lig htweight aluminum hopper car, that is part of the Federal­ Provincial ERDA Agreement on transportation. The prototype has been developed or is nearing completion of development at the CN Transcona Shops and will be ready for testing, I believe, later this sum mer.

There is a requirement under the federal-provincial agreement that be manufactured in the Province of Manitoba if it proves successful in its trials.

We have suggested that it be manufactured by CN themselves, though CN has indic ated that they're interested in seeing if there may be some possibility of private sector development of that car; so we're exploring that with them and with some pri vate sector companies, but there is a requirement that those hopper cars, the ones that would be developed, lightweight hopper cars that will be de veloped for use on the Chur chill lin e be manu factured in the Province of Manitoba. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: There's only one -there is two, but there's one main hopper car man ufacturer which is in the Maritimes, in Ontario, where at one time they were looking to expand because they just didn't have any more room to expand in their areas and they had some discussion with us in Manitoba regarding the expansion of the construction of hopper cars; but at the time we were talking to them, there was an excess of hopper cars and they would not be making a move at that time. Is there discussions going on with the hopper car manu facturers to take a look at locating in Manitoba? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There was discussion with one manuf acturer but there isn't much interest because there is an over-capacity situation right now with respect to that indus try. The other fact is th at CN can ma nufacture cars at its own facilities, which obviously include Transcona, but we did have discussion with one manufacturer, but with the over-capacity of the industry now, there's not much interest in any expa nsion, given the over-capacity. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the electrical ind ustry was one that everybody in Manitoba or everybody in the country felt was one that was going to expand by leaps and bounds because of your bubble memor y, etc., and we have a tremendously good facility in Manitoba with our research centre. We developed that research centre on the basis of having available to the man ufacturers and to the industry in Manitoba research that they could use in co-ordination with the universi ty.

As the Mini ster is aware, if he takes a look at places where there is a lot of industry, you'll find that there is a university that is geared to working with industry. What advances have been made with the electrical indus try with the use of our research centre in Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I can give a general response to that.

The Micro-electronics Centre at the University of Manitoba, which I know the member is aware of, has had significant incr ease in the amount of private sector work that they are doing, which is an indication of the usage that the priva te sector is making of that centre and is also an ind ication of the relative health of the industry. Most of the firms in that field are at pretty significant levels of activity at the present time in the Province of Manitoba. We've also worked with the indus try to form an Electronics Industry Association which is headed up by Mr.

Bulloch and they are looking at a number of areas of trying to co-ordinate activity, particularly among some of the smaller firms to help enhance the situation with regard to exporting some of their products outside of Man itoba. The larger firms have been successful in that area but it has been somewhat more di fficult for the smalle r firms and the Indu stry Association is, along with support from our department attempting to help come to grips with some of the problems that face the smaller firms in that area. I think overall the health of that sector of Manitoba industry is quite buoyant right now. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Bulloch? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Bristol Aerospace. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The food industry and the health indus try; of course, the health ind ustries are the hospitals and the hospital requirements -the food indus try in Manitoba, certainly we were concerned that we were losing some of our processing and I wonder what is being done to work with the milling companies, etc. We lost Maple Leaf Mills because of an old building and there was ind ication from them at the time that they would not forget Manitoba when they looked at future expansion.

We lost that one because instead of processing the food product here, it was being shipped and being processed in the countries where it was being bought. Has there been any indication from people lik e that or that company that they would expand or take a look at Manitoba for expansion? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There hasn't been anything in milling indus try but in terms of the overall food processing industry, I think we've done quite well in Manitoba.

The rationalization that has taken pla ce with respect to the red meat industry, the meat packing indus try through Canada has meant a lot of excess capacity being brought down to more realistic levels in terms of the overall capacity of the indus try in Canada. Fortunately, Manitoba has been able to see a maintenance of its meat packing industry. In fact, in terms of employment there has been an incr ease in emp loyment at the major packing plants and there is expansion being looked at in terms of the industry in general and some of the firms in particular.

There's also been continued expansion of the other processing companies in the Portage la Prairie area. In fact, there will be further expansion of the companies operating in the potato and possibly into the vegetable areas in Portage la Prairie in the near future. We're working with other companies with respect to a possible investment or additional food processing in the Province of Manitoba. 2806

Monday, 10 June, 1985 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in the health industry there was a show held. I think there was two held. One that was held so that the hospitals could display what they required so that Manitoba manufacturers could take a look at them and, of course, that was done at a show with other industries as well, but with the health indu stry. I believe there was a turnaround of Manitoba manufacturers being able to show the health industry what was available in Manitoba. Many of the people in the health industry in Manitoba said that their worst customer was Manitoba.

They did better selling their products outside of the province and we've tried to do something to bring the two together. Are the Manitoba manufacturers developing products that can be used in the health indu stry? I must say I admit to the Minister it's general. You can go from rubber gloves to tongue depressors in this particular busine ss. There's all kinds of things. Are the Mani toba manufacturers now starting to appreciate more busi ness from Manitoba? Have they been brought together and are they developing products that can be sold to the health industry throughout the country? I know you mentioned Mr.

Blicq is working on that particular program. HON. E. KOSTYRA: We're not satisfied with that area and that is why we've put a senior member of the staff, Mr. Blicq, on that particular sector. We think there is a lot more opportunities that can be developed utilizing the health infrastructure that we have in this province in terms of better sourcing for Manitoba manufacturers but, equally or more important, attempting to develop more spin -off industry out of the existing critical mass that we have in terms of health care research in the province.

We are not satisfied that we're doing as much as we can in that area and that's why we've put in place a particular initiative for that sector. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I just had one other sector to ask the Mini ster about, Mr. Chairman, and that's the leisure indus try. We had a tremendously good plant in Rivers at the base there that was making leisure trailers.

We had a good boat manufacturing industry in the Province of Manitoba and we've had certainly in my colleague's constituency tremendous companies that were making products that were being sold throughout Canada and, of course, the leisure industry took a bit of a beating during 19 81-82 but it's certainly starting to come back. Are we working with those companies as to markets? I know we worked with one at one time to sell the products in Holland. As I said, it's a very big market and it's coming back and are we encouraging anymore people to come into Manitoba as far as the leisure industry is concerned.

Again, it's quite general, Mr. Chairman, the leisure industry has many products in it. I believe we have a fellow in Portage la Prairie making damn good fishing rods and many other things. We had a young fellow we put into busi ness or helped get into busi ness into Brandon who makes damn good golf clubs, and I can verify that. He doesn't make them so I don't slice once in a while, but he does a good job. Is the leisure industry generally being worked on? I notice we have Mr. Allden working in the apparel and leisure industry and we've discussed apparel.

It would seem to me that those - I guess the leisure industry works together in the department with apparels, because there's ap parel that's leisure apparel, but I don't think that one person can be involved in both of those because they're both very big. What is being done in that industry? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, in terms of the existing industry in the province, it has stabilized from the dramatic down turn that the leisure industry took a number of years ago. Companies like Triple E are on the growth mode again. We haven't seen any new investment opportunities with respect to the leisure industry.

The area where we have been most active with is on the trade side, where we've assisted individual companies who want to further develop their export markets. Outside of one or two areas that we were looking at new investment of companies that might locate in the province that are related to the leisure indu stry but they are relatively small investment decisions and they haven't been made as of yet. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, my apologies. I have one more question and I'm asking it because I'm sure Don Elliott would be disappointed if I didn't.

What about the use of the Black Island sand to make glass products in this province? I used to ask Don once a month, "Where is our glass plant?" It still doesn't seem reasonable to me that we have that tremendous product, that is regarded as one of the best in the world, being shipped out of this provinc e to make products elsewhere. There must be somebody that's interested in doing that and I would say, if this Minis ter can acc omplish it, he'll had have done something I couldn't or didn't. How does it stand at the present time? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I ask Don Elliott the same question once a week, and then once a month lately. As the member is aware, that area is one that has been identified for a number of years as an opportunity for Manitoba. Its time will come. We are in very active discussions with one company at the present time. It was reported at one occasion in the paper, AFG Industries of Kingsport, Tennessee, who we discovered were looking at the possibility of ex pansion plans. They orig inally were look ing at expanding in the United States.

We've convinced them to look at Canada, at Manitoba, and they are in the position now of evaluating a number of options. We've been very active with them at the staff level. I have met with them down there and here in Winnipeg. There's been support from the Federal Government and the company is exploring a number of options, one of which is a possible plant in Manitoba; the others are expansion decisions in the United States. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1)- pass; 1. (b)(2)-pass. Committee rise. 2807

Monday, 10 June, 1985 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Comm ittee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education, Item 1. (

g) Commun ications -the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, now that the Minister has had some two and a half hours to review some of my questions with respect to the department and various people in the department, using from time-to­ time the term 'Manitoba Educa tion', and I had an opportunity to go through the press releases and I see they're used at different times, I would ask the Min ister whether she has anything more to add to her answers that she offered previously, or are the terms synonymous and used freely from time-to-time? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think I have anything else to offer. I believe that most of the press releases, or I would imagine that the press releases since the name change was accepted say Manitoba Education. If there's one that doesn't, he can bring it to our attention. I'm not sure it's the end of the world. I have indicated that for the purpo ses of contracts or legal agreements that we are still required and are still using the name 'Department of Education'. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister, last year, when we were discussing a certain survey that was conduc ted by the Policy Branch with respect to attitudes towards education, in discussing some of the conclusions coming from that report, the Mi nister indicated that she felt that the citizenry of this province was not receiving enough in the way of information. She thought it was the responsibility of herself and the department to disseminate as much information as possible with respect to all areas of education.

I'm wonder if the Mini ster can tell me what has been done from this branch's point of view over the past year to impr ove that problem perceived, at least within her own mind. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I think I indic ated some of those earlier . I think previously and my gu ess is that during the entire administration of the former go vern ment, I think the focus was largely on commun ication within the education commun ity. I think it's been a ma jor change to recogn ize that our communication with the public is every bit as impo rtant. We've done a number of things.

Certainly one of the big ones, I think, is the television series, which I already discussed, and which is a major effort by the department to raise educational issues for public discussion, and to give them information that they presently don't have on a num ber of sign ificant topics. What we did was attempt to select those areas that they were most interested in, or might have the greatest amount of public interest, and I think we've been successful in that way.

I think that the public workshops that we've put on, on involvement in education, were done some time ago, but there's been some activity as a result of them at the school division level.

As a result of those workshops that we initiated, it has impr oved the commun ication at the school division level, between school divisions and trustees. 2808 I think that we're making some attempts to provide information to people through what you might call other than just traditional media, which might be seen to be television news, radio programs, where we're using local newspapers, where we're using community newspapers and newsletters, and providing information di rectly of interest to them, to that particular target population.

Because we know that not all the news that we put out is of interest to the entire public, and we know that a lot of it isn't picked up, or isn't of interest to the more traditional media, but is of great interest to smaller communi ties. So I think we've made a lot of effort to do that. Certainly, another form of commun ication is through public speeches and public meetings by the Minister, deal ing with a wid e variety of topics in di fferent communities and in regions across the province.

In those, although the Member for Morris indicated before that there was no bad news in the press releases, there's sort of announcements about really good news and things that you 're un dertaking, new thrusts, new programs, and new ideas. I've always in my speeches, regardless of what the topic was, identified both the issues and the problems and then dealt with the actions and the initiatives, so that I always raise the public knowledge and awareness that way.

I think we've had a number of conferences that we've put on that have been open, not just to the educational commun ity, but to the community at large, and I think that quite a num ber of these are new initiatives. We've also encouraged staff to -and I think because of the attitude in the department, we're getting more calls from the public, more direct calls from people asking for information. We rarely got them before. We not get about 70 calls a month from the public, coming right directly to the Communications Branch, and asking for a variety of information that we then provide for them. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for that answer. She's certainly answered in part, although I gather from her answer that the two thrusts over the past year in attempting to address this problem of -and remember what the problem was, a year ago it was identified by way of the su rvey, that only 60 percent of Manitobans were happy, if we can use that word, with the state of education in the province at that time. The Minister indicated that we had to do a better job of convincing people that conditions were much better, convince the other 40 percent. You're pointing at me, Mr. Chairman. Is there some reason?

A MEMBER: He doesn't like what you're saying. MR. C. MANNESS: I'll continue then. So my question then -at least my understanding of what the Minis ter offered in ans wer is that over the past year the Communi cations Department has done basically two things. Firstly, it has developed a TV series and I would ask the Minister if she could provide for me an outline of the subjects covered and the titles. That may have been done in a press release, I don't know. If it has, I mis sed it. The second course of action taken is that her Commu nications Branch or herself have provided more

Monday, 10 June, 1985 speech material for her so that she could go out and develop the awareness of Manitoba's public.

Now my question specifically to the Mini ster is, after one whole year is her Policy Branch or some branch within her department, is it today surveying again attitudes of Manitobans, and is the number of people who accept what she and her department are doing within the area of educa tion, is that number beginning to increase from 60 percent, because remem ber, that was the root cause, the Minister expressing her concern that indeed people in our province were not receiving adequate information with respect to education in this province.

So the specific question is, is she measuring now the acceptance of her new programs by Manitobans and are they now beginning to find greater favour with the thrust and the dir ections of the Department of Education? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Actually, Mr. Chairman, one of the things that we've learned, first of all I think I said that it was one of the reasons -when I came out with the information about the public attitude su rvey and I ind icated that while it was not at an alarming level, it was not at a high enough level and not as high as I thought it should be.

One of the reasons -not the only reason, but one of the reasons -was the public knowledge and public information about what was going on in schools today. I think I gave the example of the Special Needs Program that had been instituted, that the province was spending something like $35 million, where there were Special Needs Programs in almost every school across the province, and yet 54 percent of the people that were surveyed didn't know what a Sp ecial Needs Program was, didn' t know there were any in their schools.

So that clearly, there are major initiatives taken to deal with high priority needs where the public isn't at all aware of what's going on. One of the things that has to be addressed, that we'll address is better information. We can do some of that from our department.

I don't suggest for a minute, nor did I ever, that im proving commun ications in the Department of Education, to the public, im proving their understanding, information and access ibility, was going to solve overnight the questions of confidence in the public schools system, it couldn't possibly be that simple, that you develop three or four initiatives in a Commun ications Branch and you solve all of either your commun ications problems, or have a significant increase in public feelings and attitudes about education.

What we do know is that they're getting very little information from the schools, and I think this will be one of the major deficiencies. When they're asked where they get their information from about the education system, they say large ly, and the greatest amount of information comes from the media - and then it comes from kids or from neighbours or from people in the commun ity, but very few of them relate information about the education system coming dir ectly in a formal way from the school.

Since the schools are the ones that are providing programs, a wide variety of programs in each school division and each school, I think that a lot more is going to have to be done to help schools and school divisions get information out to the paren1 about what is going on in their child's school and wha1 programs are going on there, because that's of far more interest to them than general programs across the province, some of which may or may not be in their chi ld's school. I wouldn't stand up here and say that there is incr eased support or that there should be.

All I can say is that we have attempted to impr ove our commu nication ability, particularly with the public; we've attempted to raise issues and raise awareness and understanding and knowledge of the public at large and parents; and that we have tried to im prove the information and the communic ation that comes out from my department. That will only be one factor in the questions that you raised. HON. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, taking the risk of being a little flippant I suppose, the Minister says that the main source of information available to citizens in the province today is from the media, and I suppo se I could say, well, probably the media receives most of theirs from the press releases, the 18 0 or so that come from her department. So maybe that's where the media receives a lot of its information. I know I almost see verbatim at times the press releases as printed in the media, pri nted within papers.

They're prin ted as developed by her own press people, her own Commun ications staff, so I don't know who she's being critical of, or if she's being critical at all. I would ask a couple of questions now with respect to the style of writing in the press releases. I'm not going to move into the content at this time, but I'd like to use a couple of examples: May 10, 19 85, a press release came out, Kids and Trees, Program Under Way. It's a half-page press release, indicating that Departments of Resources, Education, Highways and Municipal Affairs kicked off Kids and Trees Program near St. Adolphe May 7th.

It went on to indicate what the program was designed to do and it said the first planting was done May 7th by 130 students and 20 teachers from Gretna Mennonite Collegiate. I ask the Minister, who decides who will make mention or not mention of the fact that there were other Ministers in attendance, indeed, the Member for Morris, following the Mini ster of Resources, was the second person to plant a tree. How does the Min ister or her staff decide when other individuals of other political stripes should not be mentioned within releases coming from her department? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I didn't know he had planted a tree, but I'd be glad to give him all the credit for doing so and for participating in a very sort of creat ive, I think, pr ogram , whose basis is reforestation, not just planting of trees. I think when you talk about planting of trees, it sounds a little frivolous, but the idea was to make kids understand and have a better appreciation of soil conservation and refores tation by having them involved in the tree planting in critical areas.

I don't think that that press release -and we may have to check on this because the Di rector of Commu nications and I have been t<c•!king together - 2809

Monday, 10 June, 1985 but neither one of us remember putting out that press release and I think that it likely went from Department of Natural Resources, although it was a co-operative program between us and Natural Resources and we participated through the students in the schools I don't beli eve we put out the press release. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I candidly admit my feel ings aren't hurt that much.

The only reason I posed the question is, I find these press releases, particularly after you read 18 0 of them - I always wonder at times how the author attempts to be non-political, but yet at times always manages to quote the Mini ster as if she's the only authority at that particular place at that particular time. - (Interjection) - Of course, the Min ister was not there at that time. She's right, she was not there at that time, but at many of the others, she was there.

I guess it brings into question a longer-standing concern of those of us who are watching the press relea ses come from all various departme nts of government and wondering when they've crossed the barrier and moved into a purely political review of the statement of facts.

I would also refer to a press release dated May 10, 19 85, and it's titled, "Hemphill announces lowering of teacher retirement age." I would ask, who issued orders to the Commun ications Branch to make mention or to state for public consumption the fact that some agreement had been reached between the department -in other words, the government -and the Teachers' Society with respect to the vital issue of the time, rem oval of penalty for a full formula pension at age 55?

I ask this question because the Minis ter knows that this has happened now on at least a couple of occasions and maybe more, where she's made the introduction by press release of a program, particularly when the Hou se was sitting, in this case before enabling legislation was even tabled. I ask the Min ister, who made the decision to release this information before the courtesy was shown to bring it forward to the House? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Just before I answer that, I wanted to go back to the other point that the member made when he was suggesting that all of a sudden press releases have become political because we're only mentioning Ministers or we're not mentioning members of the opposition when they're there. I don't mind if we want to sit down and work out an agreement. I can't remember and we can't remember a pr ess release coming from the former government that included anybody but themselves.

If they can find one press release that did justice and said that they were introducing a program and that the members of the opposition were in attendance, I would love to see it, so I'd ask him to table - (Interjection) - I'm saying I'd love to see examples of press releases that did what he suggested we should do. In terms of their question as to who authorized the press release, of course the Minister always takes full responsibility for the authorization of press releases, their preparation and distribution. As the member knows, I have already stood in the House and offered 2810 an apology on that.

I'm not sure how many apologies the member requires. I stood in the House and said that it was not the tradition, that I regretted it, and it wouldn't happen again. MR. C. MANNESS: You said that last time. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I think the point was made; the apology was offered; and one would hope that one would be enough. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister says she hopes one is enough. I would hope so too. I think she also said that when it happened here a year ago. I can't specifically remember what the other one was, but if the Mini ster wants me to research that out too, I will. Mr.

Chairman, I don't have any further questions in the Communi cations Branch at this time. Unless other membe rs of the opposition do, I am prepared to pass this section. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1 )-pass; 1. (g)(2)-pass. 1. (

h) Admin istrative Services: ( 1) Salaries -the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I propose to discuss a numb er of issues under this heading. I'd like, firstly, to discuss a numb er of policy issues and I do so because I don't know what better area that I might do so. I would ask the Mini ster if she could comment as to the process of setting up her Workplace Safety and Health Committees -when I say her, I mean the government - as they apply to school divisions.

I have before me a letter dated March 12, 1985, coming from the Pine River School Division, No. 30, and also a letter of March 11 th coming from the Rolling River School Division. The specific concerns included within these letters deal with the tremend ous requirement time-wise and the cost of enacting and bringing into place these particular committees. I haven't seen the Min ister's response with respect to these letters. I would ask her if there are any changes in policy or any views that may make it easier for some school divisions to live up to the legislation.

This one letter, in particular, from the Pine Creek School Division ind icates that every one of their meetings has a cost to the school division of some $1 ,800, I believe the figure was. I think the letter requested the Mini ster and her department to give consideration to somehow funding or sharing that cost. I stand corrected, Mr. Chairman, the total cost in salaries is $1 ,489 per day plus transportation; the total cost per day per meeting is $1,764 to the school division.

In light of that information, I ask the Mini ster whether her department has done any in-house reviews as to the development of these committees and the onerous cost that they have upon school division and whether or not she's prepared to recommend any changes. HON. M. HE MPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think there are a numb er of issues there that I'd like to address, one of which is the suggested cost of the meetings. I have been in commun ication with school divisions because a numb er of them have ind icated some

Monday, 10 June, 1985 concerns and uncertainty, and said that it was unfair about how they were supposed to apply the workpla ce health and safety legislation to schools, that they feared that strict application would, in some cases, not make a lot of sense, and could be very onerous.

My communication back to them -first of all, I set up a meeting with the Mini ster of the Environment and his officials and my officials, because I felt that we shared the responsibility to provide information and commun icate to school divisions and help them to work out the system that would ind icate how it would and how it should apply to school divisions.

We agreed in that meeting that the school division or the Department of Educ ation would take some resp onsibili ty to communicating with schools -that's who they're used to hearing from and who they're used to getting information from, and furthermore that we would set up workshops in the fall, I think they're going to take place, and they're under way in terms of the planning now, across the province, maybe three or four regional workshops where we will take them through what the act means and how it applies and how to deal with it. However, I did say this. It does apply .

The Workplace, Health and Safety Act does apply to schools and it should apply to schools. The reason it should apply to schools is that we have a lot of chemicals, a lot of materials that are dangerous and our children are being taught on vocational equipment and machinery that is the equivalent of that which is in industry.

Of course, they're not trained yet so it becomes even more dangerous, I suppo se you could say, when you are training young people on it and we have to make sure that the same requirements and precautions that are taken for trained adult workers are also being taken for young people in schools. You might have noticed that over the period of the last three or four months there were a number of cases of either explosions or accidents in schools that resulted from the storage or the mishandling of a variety of chemicals in the schools. There weren't any accidents to childr en but there could have been very easily.

So we said that it does apply but we also said that it doesn't apply strictly. In other words,

an act that was designed for industry and the workplace with adults does not apply to an educational setting and institution. What we've agreed to do is to have workshops and to work out between the workplace, health and safety legislation and staff and our staff and school divisions how to apply it. What is it reasonable to apply? What is it reasonable for school divisions to do? Clearly, we want them to take precautions in the storage, in the handling of chemicals and materials in places like science labs. We want them to take precautions in the training of children on heavy equipment.

I think that when we've gone to these meetings we will have sorted out a lot of the concern. A lot of it's uncertainty. Goodness, do we have to take that and apply it strictly? Does the whole act have to be applied strictly to schools? If it does, they can see a lot of problems. I agree with them. So, what we have to do is say what is it that should apply and what is reasonable and how do we apply it to schools? We will be working that out this fall. I'm not sure that I buy the argument that it costs them $1 ,800 a day or $1 ,400, whatever the figure is.

What they're really doing is taking the people that are sup posed to be on the committee and it's a variety of people from janitors and secretaries, it's everybody that works in the building -students and teachers - and sort of adds up what they would be entitled to get for the period that the commi ttee is meeting and then charge us that and say that's the cost of the comm ittee. Well, that's really quite ridiculous.

When we have comm ittees and we have things that have to be done -they have comm ittees that meet on dozens of other issues in schools and it may be curric ulum, it may be standards, it may be discipline, they don't sit down and say we had four teachers and two principals and a secretary sitting in for a three­ hour meeting and it cost us $1 ,000 for that meeting. They expect that meetings that are held on issues that are required to be dealt with by school staff, and this is one of them, are part of the responsibility of that school staff and they don't cost-out the particular cost of the meeting.

No. 1, I think what we want to do is reduce uncertainty;

(2) I think we want to give them clear information about what they have to do to apply it, and (3) we want it set up so it's handled in a reasonable manner so that it isn't causing an undue burden but also is not neglecting our responsibility for safety of the students in the schools. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, let not the Minister try and divide me from the intent of the legislation for trying to determine what is safe and what is unsafe in the schools too. I have no difficulty with that. The problem is the calling of the meetings.

Like the letter goes on to say -and again I'm quoting from the Pine Creek School Division No. 30 letter to the Min ister, March 12, 19 85. "Si nce the number of empl oyee representatives is equal to the number of emplo yer representatives, it'll be impossible to get agreement to hold even ing mee tings. The superintendents suggested that meetings should be held in the evenings and he was quickly reminded that legislation provided for at least four meetings during working days and that the emplo yer is to pay for all expenses.

Shouldn't it be the right of the employer to call the time of the meetings if the expenses are paid by the employer?" Again, I guess what I'm asking the Minister, this school division and indeed others are saying, yes, let's try to develop the committee system and let's try and uncover those areas where there are unsafe conditions within the public school system, but let's attempt to do that when there is no cost to students by way of teachers not being in the classroom, no cost to the division in having to replace bus drivers.

Let's do it in the evening when it's a contribution made by everybody for the good of education at no cost to anybody. I'm asking the Minister whether she's going to take a side on this issue or whether she's going to insist that these meetings be called during the daytime pulling custodians, teachers, bus dr ivers, transportation supervisors and everybody involved -bringing them from their basic responsibili ties to a meeting to discuss safety within the context of the school. HON. M. HEM PHILL: Mr. Chairman, first of all, every time there's a problem which they can't resolve or 2811

Monday, 10 June, 1985 there's a dispute, the members want me to jump in and either pass a law or pass a regulation that forces people or tells them what to do. The requirements are reasonable. They have to have from 4 to 12 members. They have to meet at least quarterly, so this isn't something where they're having to meet once a week. I think that initially the meetings may be longer when they're determining what the safety problems are in their schools and once they've establish