Social Services Committee — Department of Human Resources and Employment — 19 May 1999

1999-05-19

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

May 19, 1999

SOCIAL SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

I assume your other officials will show up in due

course but there are a few things we need to do at the beginning and I will give

them a few more minutes to get here.

Perhaps before we get started we could attend to a

small piece of business, the minutes of the last meeting of the Social Services

Committee when we met to discuss and consider the Estimates of the Department of

Human Resources and Employment. You have the minutes before you. Can I have a

motion to accept the minutes as presented?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: That being done, we will now move into

the Estimates for the Department of Education. Madam Minister, we welcome you

and your officials this evening.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

CHAIR: The procedure is not unlike that of

previous years. We will ask you to introduce the members of your staff and make

some introductory remarks. Following that I will ask the Vice-Chair to lead off

the debate, the discussion, the questioning. Then we will alternate amongst the

members.

Before I start perhaps we could introduce the

members of the Committee, starting at my far right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: John Ottenheimer.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder.

MS JONES: Yvonne Jones.

MR. PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons.

CHAIR: I am Bob Mercer, Chair of the Committee.

If you would, Madam Minister, when your officials

speak if they could identify themselves for the purposes of record by Hansard. I

think the gentleman probably knows this group here by voice but perhaps he is

not familiar with your members. So, if you would, the floor is yours.

MS FOOTE: Thank you. We have the Deputy

Minister, Florence Delaney here to my immediate left. On Florence's left is

Pamela Walsh. Pamela is the ADM for post-secondary. On my immediate right is

David Lewis. David, what is your title other than that you do the books?

MR. LEWIS: ADM for Finance and Administration.

MS FOOTE: There you go. To David's right we

have Harold Press, who is the ADM for K-XII, and in the back of the room is

Gerald Galway, and Gerald is with the department as well.

I have to start out by telling you that four of us

are new, "new" being that I have been in the position for about five months now

and Harold has been with us for about a month, I suppose.

MR. PRESS: Under a month.

MS FOOTE: Under a month. Florence the same, and

David the same. We are going to do our best with the Estimates here tonight.

This is why we have Pam and Gerald with us, and Gerald is the fount of all

knowledge. We will certainly be here and that is why there are so many of us

here this evening.

I will start out, I guess, by talking a little bit

about education, and what we are trying to accomplish with the budget that we

have, a budget of approximately $700 million which - I'm sure a lot of you have

heard me say - accounts for 20 per cent of the total provincial budget. In fact,

it is the second largest item of expenditure for the government next to Health

and Community Services which accounts for 50.2 per cent.

As we go through the Estimates I'm sure you will

have some questions about some one-time payments and we will be able to respond

to those as well. I suppose if you look at our expenditure as a province, based

on our GDP, we spend more on education in this Province than any other province

in Canada. If you look at what we spend on students themselves, if you look at

the percentage of increase, in the last six years we have seen a larger

percentage of increase in student expenditures than any other province in this

country, with the exception of Saskatchewan. I guess Saskatchewan is the one

that is very similar to this Province in terms of its geographic makeup and the

rural nature of that province. When you look at the Province itself and our

geography you can understand why our expenditures are so great.

We have seen a tremendous decline in student

enrolment in this Province which really is a cause for concern, I think, in

terms of how we administer our education system. We peaked at one time in the

early 1970s at 162,000 students and today we are at 97,000. If you look ten

years out to 2010, we are looking at less than 60,000 students. I think there is

a real serious issue for us in terms of our student enrolment and how we plan to

deliver education in this Province. I think there is a very real concern out

there in terms of our ability to deliver, given the resources that we have. How

do we maximize our resources and still at the same time deliver a quality

education program?

If you look at the nature of our Province, again,

where we have rural communities and where we have gone with the designation of

necessarily existent schools, we have ninety-three of those. Of the 350 schools

in the Province ninety-three have that particular status. What we are finding is

while that took care of some of the more rural schools in the past couple of

years, now we are finding that through the consolidation that has taken place

through education reform there are other schools that are finding themselves in

similar situations that the small necessarily existent schools found themselves

in, or the smaller of all the schools found themselves in, just a couple of

years ago.

Now that we have come together with the

consolidation part of the exercise of education reform, we really now have to

focus on how we are delivering education in the Province, particularly to rural

Newfoundland. We clearly have to now look at curriculum development, we have to

look at professional development, we have to look at any number of issues around

the quality of education, about how we are delivering that education in the

Province.

One of the issues of course for us again is the

declining student enrolment. I have to say that while we have seen our students

decline by about 34 per cent, in the last ten years we have really seen the

teacher allocation decline by about 21 per cent.

We are trying to recognize the importance of making

sure we have enough teachers in the system, but at the same time there is a

fiscal reality here and that is trying to deliver education with the resources

available to us, and bearing in mind that when you are having the kind of

decline that we are having, at a rate of 4 per cent a year - which translates

into about 8200 students a year - that there is a serious issue there for us.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would turn it over to

you, recognizing that you have a lot of questions, I'm sure.

CHAIR: Thank you, Madam Minister.

It has been our practice that we would have most of

our questioning under the one head, 1.1.01. Is that the consensus that we would

do that again this evening?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Very well. Then I would ask the Clerk to

call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: I would ask the Vice-Chairman if he

would commence his questioning, after which I will go to Ms Hodder.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Under the first heading, 1.1.01.01, the Minister's

Office, Salaries, there is a jump of about $25,000 this year, taking into

account the fact that there was an extra pay period for 1998-1999. What would

account for the increase?

MS FOOTE: In the Minister's Office?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: That was the public relations

specialist position. In addition to the Director of Public Relations that we

have, there is a public relations specialist that was hired.

MR. T. OSBORNE: In addition to...?

MS FOOTE: The Director of Public Relations and

Communications.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Yes, that is why I'm

(inaudible). There are two public relations positions then?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 1.2.02.12, General

Administration, under Information Technology, the amount that was budgeted last

year, there was an increase of approximately $150,000, and there is a

substantial increase in the budgeted amount again for this year. I wonder if you

could give some clarification on where that expenditure is going, the reason for

the additional expenditure.

MS FOOTE: The revised would have been $698,200,

now we are projecting $812,500. Those increases are related to hardware and

software development and system support for the teachers' payroll. We have also

added the payroll for the student assistants in there as well, so that is to

have a more comprehensive system and a more consistent one throughout.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The payroll for the student

assistants is under Information Technology?

MS FOOTE: This is for the system itself, the

hardware and everything that is required to revamp it and bring it up to a level

where we have the same type of approach for teachers' payroll. It is an

enhancement of the system, essentially.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just for clarification, I'm

understanding student assistants to be the actual people that go into the

classroom with special needs students.

MS FOOTE: Yes, but this is for their payroll,

this is how we -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, it is not for them.

MS FOOTE: No, this is for the payroll.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, I'm sorry. I thought that

was what you were saying. I was going to say, under Information Technology?

Under Youth Services, 1.2.04.01, Salaries, the

revised amount for 1998-1999 was up $21,800. Can you give some explanation as to

that?

MS FOOTE: The department in its wisdom choose

to hire additional summer students last summer.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same subheading, .09,

Allowances and Assistance, there was only half the amount spent last year that

was budgeted, and now it is up to approximately the same amount.

MS FOOTE: Yes. Do you remember the programs

where students would get tuition vouchers and tutoring for tuition programs?

Well, that was last year the take-up, even though we had budgeted more.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is under the SWASP

program?

MS FOOTE: Is that the SWASP?

WITNESS: Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Tutoring for Tuition, that is right.

The take-up, even though the students had worked and they were entitled to it,

this is how much they redeemed.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Is the SWASP program budgeted

though Education as well, or is that through Human Resources and Employment?

MS FOOTE: Human Resources and Employment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same heading, .10,

Grants and Subsidies, there was $150,000 more spent than was budgeted last year.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We choose to provide additional

grants to some youth organizations. We get an awful lot of requests under that

particular heading for student leadership conferences, encounters with Canada,

and all of those different types of requests. The department chose to, in fact,

accommodate more than had actually been budgeted for. I can tell you that the

requests that are in this year are triple what we have in the budget to actually

cover.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Corporate Planning and

Research, 1.2.05.01, Salaries, there is what would amount to about a 40 per cent

decrease in salaries this year over what was budgeted last year. I wonder if you

could give some clarification as to whether there was staff cut there or

something else.

MS FOOTE: No, these were three positions that

were cost-shared on projects, right? David, do you want to speak to that?

MR. LEWIS: There were three positions last year

under cost-shared projects and those projects have ended, so there is a decline

in the amount of salaries. As you can see there is a decline in .02,

Revenue-Provincial, on the bottom there, because they were being cost-shared and

that particular program is over.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. Under Professional

Services, .05, there is a substantial decrease in the actual amount spent over

what was budgeted. You are up again to $117,100 this year. I'm wondering why

that amount had gone down to $30,000 from $197,500?

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible) necessity with

cost-shared projects and we had anticipated more than actually materialized. We

actually only spent $30,000. For this coming year we are looking at needing

additional revenue because we are looking at a number of reports that need to be

done, some that were last done - for instance, the K-XII indicator survey, the

analysis and report was last done in 1996. (Inaudible) follow-up survey, for

instance, that was done is done on an annual basis. We have the teacher survey

workloads, et cetera, done every four to five years, so the increase is in

anticipation of additional work that we will have to do.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01, Teaching

Services, the amount that is budgeted this year is approximately the same as the

amount that was budgeted last year. I'm just wondering, based on the pay

increase - there was a 2 per cent increase last year and again this year under

the collective bargaining - is that a result of teaching positions cut? What

would amount for the allocations there being the same?

MS FOOTE: That is as a result of the decision

to take 182 teachers out of the system.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So that would amount to roughly

2 per cent? Is that 2 per cent (inaudible)?

MS FOOTE: It would have been 11.4 - is that the

2 per cent?

MR. LEWIS: Yes, it would amount to 182 out of

about 6,000, so that sounds like around 3 per cent.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.02.06, School Board

Operations, Purchased Services, there is an increase there this year up from

what was spent last year, $768,400 up to $1,318,900. What would the allocations

be under Purchased Services?

MS FOOTE: I think that was for the insurance

premiums for school property and that is the outcome of - that is the service

(inaudible) total (inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Regular Operating Grant,

under Grants and Subsidies there, .10, there is less money being spent this year

than was actually spent last year. Am I to understand that that would be for the

upkeep, renovations and maintenance on the schools we have within the system?

MS FOOTE: No, this would be where we took care

of the debt relief. Remember the boards had incurred some debt as a result of

coming together, and we would have put in the $1.2 million to take care of that?

So when all the boards came together there was -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the Regular Operating

Grant?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess to clarify my question

I will rephrase it. The operation of the schools, that is what would come under

the Regular Operating Grant?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay. Would the renovations

that are required with some of the rezoning and restructuring come under that

subheading as well?

MS FOOTE: Does that come out of (inaudible)?

MS DELANEY: Some of it would come out of that,

some of it would come out of EIC funding for which we have a total of $125

million. For example, the $15 million allocated for St. John's is not out of

this, it is out of the $125 million for school construction and renovations.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So how much of the renovations

that are going to be required this year would come under this subheading?

MS DELANEY: Very little. Most of this money is

for regular maintenance, day-to-day maintenance of the schools.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just regular operations?

MS DELANEY: That is right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So what subheading would I find

the - where would that come under?

MS DELANEY: You would find that under school

construction when you go to 2.1.08, where it says Capital. That is where the

major renovations are funded.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The Newfoundland and Labrador

Education Investment Corporation?

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So I see no allocations of

funding under that this year, under 2.1.08.

MS DELANEY: That is because from a cash flow

perspective we have advanced the Corporation the full $50 million. You will see

that we have paid out $29.9 million in the past fiscal year. We have advanced

the Corporation now the full $50 million. They have more than enough cash to

meet their cash flow requirements for the upcoming fiscal year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So that was allocated under

last year's budget?

MS DELANEY: Right, in 1998-1999.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess what you are saying is

there is enough allocated to them under last year's budget to fulfil any

requirements under rezoning and restructuring this year?

MS DELANEY: To meet the capital requirements,

that is correct.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, there is an increase

this year of almost $400,000 over what was actually spent last year. It is

basically the same as what was budgeted last year. We are to understand that

there is a decline in the pupil population. Why would we need the same amount

for textbooks and school supplies this year as we did last year?

MS FOOTE: I expect, and you can correct me if

I'm wrong, that some of this would have to do with the needs of the special

education students, under the Canning report, making sure that we have the

resources available to those students in the system. That requires audio

cassettes of different programs and different curriculum materials than you

would normally find in the system. Is that accurate?

MR. T. OSBORNE: That requirement was not there

last year?

MS FOOTE: Not to the degree that it is this

year because we are adding additional units for special needs. Is there another

component to it?

MS DELANEY: There is another component. The

other component is that we allow for new textbooks. As you know, we are changing

our curriculum in a number of areas and basically what this was allowed for was

not only for replacement texts but for new textbooks. When we purchase new

textbooks, naturally we would have to acquire them for all students that would

be in a particular grade or particular subject area.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under the same subsection,

under .02, Revenue-Provincial, is that as a result of the sale of textbooks to

students?

MS DELANEY: Grades IX to XII.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under section, 2.2.02, the

Revenue-Federal there, .02, there is a decrease of almost $400,000 from the

federal government. Is there any explanation as to why? Is that as a result of

out-migration, with the Canada Health and Social Transfers? Did that factor into

that amount? Why would there be a smaller allocation from the federal government

this year?

MS FOOTE: Do you know that one?

MR. LEWIS: I would think that it would just be

planned cash flows. It is a cost-shared agreement that provides funding here and

cash flows for cost-shared agreements tend to vary from year to year. So

(inaudible) planned the cash flow.

MR. PRESS: I suspect these are the result of

negotiated agreements and there are fewer students in the language programs, and

as a result there is a decline in revenue from federal sources.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.01.01, School

Services, Salaries, we see what was budgeted last year was $199,100 and there is

$172,700 budgeted this year. When you take into account an extra pay period last

year and the difference of the 2 per cent this year, I'm wondering is there a

decrease in salary or was there a change in staff there? What would account for

the change in the allocations?

MS DELANEY: Yes, there is a slight reduction in

the level of staffing in the School Services area. As well, one of the positions

in this area is also funded through the Education Investment Corporation. That

person does a lot of the clerical work for the Education Investment Corporation

as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under 2.3.02, Student Testing

and Evaluation, there is a difference in salary allocations. Was there a

reduction in the number of staff (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Yes. One of the consulting projects

has been completed, so that consultant will now return to the school where they

came from. That person was here on secondment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I am going to shift some focus

away from the Estimates now and leave something for my colleagues to ask. I have

a couple of other questions.

Would you elaborate on the change in the number of

teaching positions this year and give some indication as to the percentage for

urban and rural differences under the (inaudible)?

MS FOOTE: I do not know if you would know the

breakdown on that, Florence, but what we have seen is a reduction of 182

positions overall. I don't know if there has been a breakdown in terms of how

many of those come from the rural versus the urban areas.

What we did was we looked at the student enrolments

and looked at the number of teachers that could - if you were to apply the

teacher allocation formula, you would have seen over 400 come out of the system,

and that was not what we wanted to do.

We went back and looked again at the student

enrolment and looked at programming. In discussions with the boards, we looked

at the number of schools in each of the districts, and so we looked at the SNES

schools in the first instance to determine how many of those there are. That

would be done in consultation with the boards. Of course, all of those are in

rural Newfoundland, the whole ninety-three. None of those are in any of the

urban areas.

If you want to look at the allocations there in the

SNES schools, there are enhanced allocations in the SNES schools to ensure that

they have the full program that they can offer. There are ninety-three of those.

Depending on the enrolment, that will determine the number of teachers that go

in there. I cannot give you a figure without knowing how many went into each

school.

Again, when we looked at the add backs, we went

fair and across the board. Where you would normally, I suppose, if you had to

look at student enrolment, you would have seen thirty teachers coming out, but

we chose to put fifteen back in. The way it was done was across the board, but I

do not have a breakdown - I don't know if anybody else does - on the numbers

that are in rural areas of the Province versus the numbers that are in the urban

centres.

MR. PRESS: I could take a stab at it. On the

student side first, in 1998 there were about 56,000 students in urban schools

and about 41,000 students in rural schools. That is about a 60-40 split. In

terms of teachers, there are about 3,350 teachers in urban schools and about

2,980 in rural schools. The decline over three years -

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you have a percentage on

that?

MR. PRESS: That was what I was going to just do

now. The decline in the three-year period prior to this was about a 1 per cent

decline in the total number of teachers in urban schools and about a 16.7 per

cent decline in the number of teachers in rural schools.

That is equivalent to about the same in terms of

enrolment. There is about a less than 1 per cent in decline in enrolment in

urban schools, and that is just not the St. John's area. There are urban schools

in just about every district, with the exception of the Northern Peninsula, and

about an 18 per cent, almost a 20 per cent, decline in the number of students in

rural schools throughout the Province.

WITNESS: That is over what time frame?

MR. PRESS: That is over the last three-period.

WITNESS: Three years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Factored into the pupil-teacher

ratios, does that include non-teaching positions?

MS FOOTE: That includes librarians,

administrators, counsellors, all of them.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Does it factor in the SNES?

MS FOOTE: In the pupil-teacher ratio? Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have a question on student

assistants. In my opinion there is a problem with the number of student

assistants in the Province. I know in my own district, as an example, I've

received calls. One comes to mind. Earlier this year there was a student that

was actually told that he could not attend school for a period of time because

he did not have a student assistant. What is being done to rectify or clear up

the problem with the shortage of student assistants?

MS FOOTE: I am not sure we would agree there is

a shortage. In fact, I suppose if you look at the budget, we are over the budget

in terms of what had been budgeted for student assistants. In fact, I guess we

went over last year by about $600,000 so there is an issue there for us as well.

What has been happening is that the schools have

been requesting of the boards and the boards have been putting forward to us

what they require in the way of student assistants. One of the issues we are

grappling with now is how to determine the need. That is something we have to

look very closely at.

At this point in time I think it is safe to say

that there has been no monitoring done of the student assistants. It has been

left to the boards and to the schools. What we are seeing at the end of the day

is an increased demand without us having actually budgeted for that increased

demand. This is something that we have to have a serious look at. That is, the

need that exists out there. That is something we are in the process of doing

now.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate there will be

more student assistants allocated under next year's budget?

MS FOOTE: What we are looking at now, and

having discussions around, is what need is out there. I would think it is safe

to say that you will always find that boards or schools will come forward

requesting additional student assistants for the students in their systems.

Whether or not we will be able to meet all of the requests we do not know at

this point, but we are certainly trying to get a handle on the number of

requests that are there.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Do you anticipate there will be

an increase?

MS FOOTE: I do not anticipate there will be an

increase. There might be, once we have gone through the system and had

discussion with the boards. There might be a different way of how those that are

presently in the system are allocated. Again, we do not know, because those are

still discussions that are ongoing with the boards. We haven't budgeted for an

increase, I can put it that way.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you. Alright, that is it

for now. I may ask some more questions later but I will allow some other members

of the Committee to ask questions at this time.

CHAIR: Thank you, Tom. Mary, and then we will

come back to Tom Hedderson.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, I do not have any

questions for the minister at this time.

CHAIR: Then we will go right back to Tom.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was quick.

CHAIR: You are prepared; you have done your

homework.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am always prepared, right?

We will turn back to 1.1.01.06, the Minister's

Office, Purchased Services. Madam Minister, there is a bubble there, with

$13,500 for last year and $7,300 this year. What are those services that we are

talking about?

MS FOOTE: That was probably some of the

meetings that the minister was required to attend, a number of regional and

national forums.

MR. HEDDERSON: So you are going to have less

meetings this year, obviously.

MS FOOTE: We will see. We are not budgeting for

as much, looking at what was budgeted for and what was revised last year. Again,

we will try to live within what is there.

MR. HEDDERSON: This is a cutback, more or less.

Under 1.2.01.03, Executive Support, Transportation

and Communications, again, it went from $63,000 to $86,500 to $48,400. What is

the breakdown between Transportation and Communications money-wise?

WITNESS: I do not know the breakdown.

MR. LEWIS: For the $48,400 that is in for this

year there is about $38,000 for travel and about $10,000 for telephone. If you

looked at last year's funding you would assume the telephone account would be

relatively stable, so the remainder would be travel.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, this is not anticipated

to have the same amount of travel?

MS FOOTE: No. A lot of that had to do with

travel required because of the school board consolidations and the staff getting

out and meeting with the various school boards, and school closures, all of the

issues surrounding that. So there was a fair bit of travel done because of that.

Of course, there were site visits as well for capital works whenever anything is

happening out there with an extension or a new school.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 1.2.04, Youth Services,

I'm just looking at .09 and .10, Allowances and Assistance and Grants and

Subsidies, respectively. The special projects under this are usually the grant

to youth organizations, the Duke of Edinburgh awards, the travel and exchange,

and the Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I'm just looking for a breakdown

first of all. Where would they fall?

MS FOOTE: Where would what fall?

MR. HEDDERSON: For example, grants to youth

organizations, would that be under Grants and Subsidies?

MS FOOTE: That would be under .10, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. The Duke of Edinburgh?

MS FOOTE: Under .10.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. Travel and exchange?

MS FOOTE: .10.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tutoring for Tuition?

MS FOOTE: That would be .09, Allowances and

Assistance.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is there anything else that I am

missing here? That would be the programs?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The travel and exchange, what

would that break down to? How much is used for travel and exchange?

MS FOOTE: Sorry, where are you now?

MR. HEDDERSON: These would be the special

projects. So they would be under Grants and Subsidies?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the travel and exchange,

again, I just want to see how much is spent and the nature of the travel and

exchange. Is that interprovincial?

MS FOOTE: There was $27,600 on travel and

exchange and it was an interchange on Canadian studies, interprovincial travel.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, who is that offered to?

MS FOOTE: You have a number of groups that

benefit here from this. You have Scouts Canada, the Provincial Boys and Girls

Club, Girl Guides, all of them.

MR. HEDDERSON: I was just thinking about sport

teams. That would not fall under that, would it, Minister?

MS FOOTE: No, that is different. Where do sport

teams come in?

MR. LEWIS: There are provincial bodies that

receive funding under here. There are local organizations such as, for example,

the Wabana Boys and Girls Club, and the Boys and Girls Club in Buchans. There

are a variety of local organizations as well that receive funding. Then there

are groups like the Duke of Edinburgh awards. That is funded here as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: How much would be spent on

those?

MR. LEWIS: The Duke of Edinburgh?

MS FOOTE: Twenty-five thousand dollars, the

Duke of Edinburgh?

MR. LEWIS: I believe it is $25,000, yes. It was

$12,000 last year. There was also some money that was paid in advance towards

this year as well.

MS FOOTE: That is an excellent program.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes it is. I am just curious to

see how they have been accessed because I know they are good programs and I'm

delighted to see that the groups are a good selection of groups. Of course, I

would love to see more.

Youth organizations are the other one, of course.

What organizations? Are they the ones that you already went through with me?

MR. LEWIS: I touched on some but there is a

wide variety here.

MR. HEDDERSON: The travel and exchange

(inaudible).

MR. LEWIS: It runs about seven or eight pages

actually of what organizations. The funding ranges from $500 to $20,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, but they are being

accessed and the money has been used. I would think there are a lot more groups

that are applying that perhaps cannot get it as well.

MS FOOTE: I guess they have to report back,

don't they? Whenever they go and take a trip they have to report back on their

expenditures.

MR. LEWIS: Yes.

MS FOOTE: So there is a report filed.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Tutoring for Tuition

program, I'm very interested in looking at the numbers there as well and how

successful that has been. The money that was spent on it, obviously all that

money is allotted in .09 for Tutoring for Tuition.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, what is the explanation

for the $250,000 there?

MS FOOTE: The take-up was not there even though

they were eligible, based on the criteria. The take-up just was not there for

whatever reason (inaudible).

MR. LEWIS: The $500,000 was actually all

committed but this is the high school students, so the actual take-up happens

when they actually move in with post-secondary. So you get a time lag between

when the voucher is actually committed and when they actually claim it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Sure. You have Level IIs now

that are doing the tutoring and -

MR. LEWIS: Exactly. The $500,000 was all

committed at some point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, my question is this. It

has been accessed, it has been used, and the money is there to be -

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, that is very positive,

because it is an excellent program and one that should certainly be -

MR. PRESS: There is one other explanation for

the rise. There was a program evaluation done last year. (Inaudible) expenditure

(inaudible) to try and identify the benefit that was coming back (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Harold, what was the result of

that? You were very encouraged by it and the feedback from the students?

MR. PRESS: Yes, absolutely. One of the problems

with it is the demands it places on the local teachers and so on to do this, and

that is part of the problem that they will not take on. It is usually driven by

very enthusiastic, energized teachers and so on who (inaudible) and the benefits

have been outstanding.

MR. HEDDERSON: Now, the tuition vouchers as

well, can they be used outside the Province?

MS DELANEY: I am pretty sure. I cannot say for

certain, but I am pretty sure that they can be used outside the Province.

The other thing, as well, that we should remember

is that at some point in time we will have an expenditure in some year

substantially greater than $500,000, because all of those commitments will catch

up to us at some point in time, and we will probably have $800,000, $900,000 or

$1 million we will have to pay in any one year to honour the outstanding

commitments.

MR. HEDDERSON: My colleague has stolen some

questions on me so I am just going down. If we could look at the School Board

Operations, 2.1.02, there are some questions that my colleague asked about the

insurance. Are insurance rates going up? In Purchased Services, .06, the only

thing that you are purchasing is insurance? Is that on buildings or on the

personal liability?

MS FOOTE: School property. The outcome of the

tender, which was not known at budget time, actually came in at $888,000 so it

is less than the $l.3 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: So it is less than that?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: You had budgeted for the -

MS FOOTE: Yes, because we did not know when we

went to budget what the tender would come in for.

MR. HEDDERSON: What happens in that case?

MS FOOTE: Do you want to speak to that?

MS DELANEY: In 1998-1999 the tender came in

significantly lower than what it has in the past few years. When we go out to

tender for insurance for school buildings we never know what the price is going

to be. Since it has now come in for 1999-2000 at about $800,000, that gives us a

little bit of flexibility in our budget for School Board Operations.

MR. HEDDERSON: That will be transferred to

somewhere else, is that what you are saying?

MS DELANEY: That is right. Before the end of

the year, for sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, is it lower because of

less buildings or were you anticipating -

MS DELANEY: No. What we are doing is we are

sharing the premium now with Works, Services and Transportation on all

government buildings. There is one policy for all schools and for all government

buildings, so we get a better price.

MS FOOTE: Bulk purchase.

MS DELANEY: Bulk purchase.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under .10, Grants and Subsidies,

in particular the regular operating grant, it is my understanding - and I stand

to be corrected - that the operating grants have stayed the same for the school

boards.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the first one. Also,

that if buildings were closed the operating grants for those buildings would

remain with the boards.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Now I understand as well that

there was a three-year time frame?

MS FOOTE: That is right, where they could in

fact keep their savings, any savings that they realized from consolidation. The

first two years, where they have fewer students, their grants would have been

impacted to the degree of the number of students that they lost, but in terms of

the number of buildings that were closed, they got to keep that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. As the buildings closed

(inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Now this past year, of course, in our

budget we announced that their operating grants would be the same as they were

last year even though they still have fewer students and fewer buildings.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so (inaudible). Minister,

is that going to continue? The St. John's board, for example, have restructured

now,

whereas Avalon West has really gone through restructuring. They are saving,

for three years, those operating grants. What applies now to the St. John's

board? Is it three years still?

MS FOOTE: That is a matter for discussion with

the boards at this point in time. They would obviously like to see it continue

further, even those who have had it for three years and would like to see it

continue further. That is a matter for discussion with the boards.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but the St. John's board,

where they have just really done a major restructuring, do they get the

three-year's grace?

MS FOOTE: I will not say no, but when we looked

at the three years - this is the third year, and all the discussions we have had

with the boards were centred around those three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: All the boards were aware that

they had a three year grace, right -

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: - and it was up to them if they

wanted to restructure early, middle or late. St. John's is into the third year

now, so next year their operating grants could be cut, increased or whatever you

are going to do with it.

MS FOOTE: That is right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the negotiations will be for

the upcoming school year.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Everything is covered for this,

1999-2000, but for the next one (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Where we go from here on is still a

matter of discussion with the boards. I would say most of them have come forward

with the request that they would like to continue to receive the savings.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under that as well, student

assistants has been a problem in September. I understand that in your budget you

are leaving more student assistants in, plus the request will go in now in the

spring. As a matter of fact, the requests are coming in now, and they are going

to be allotted now in June for September. That is the way it is.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The form for the allocation of

student assistants is causing problems in a sense that it is just a straight

form. There are some areas that are grey in it. Have you received any complaints

about that form, and are you prepared to address it if indeed it needs to be

addressed?

MS FOOTE: Would that be the same form that we

use for the special category teachers and everything? Is it all one and the

same? Because I know there are some issues there with some of the teachers in

terms of the length of time it takes to fill out the form so I guess it is a

different form.

MR. HEDDERSON: This one for the student

assistants really was one sheet.

MS FOOTE: Oh, a checklist.

MR. HEDDERSON: A checklist. Personally, I found

it inadequate in trying to get into some of these different categories of

students that needed the student assistants. I was just curious as to whether or

not you are aware that there are some problems and if you were considering

addressing them.

MS FOOTE: It has certainly been mentioned to us

and I think, again, where we have not been monitoring what has been happening

out there very closely we are finding that the student assistant is being used

in a number of areas that probably would not be if you had applied the criteria.

One of those areas would be in behavioural areas where you are finding that

student assistants are in fact being utilized for that reason, for that purpose.

We have to look closely at that. We have to see that those with the greatest

need actually get to avail of the service.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the form is what usually

- it is not (inaudible).

MS FOOTE: Yes, there is no room there for any

elaboration.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, and the (inaudible) part of

it was not there. It was frustrating to try and, like you said, get a case

across because it was not going to the school board, it was going into the

department, and that was a difficult thing to try and get across.

MS FOOTE: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: Also with the student

assistants, we always find it very difficult when it comes to substitute time

for student assistants. Oftentimes if the student assistant is not in the

student is not in, because it is difficult to get substitute time, especially.

What is the leeway for boards with regard to substitute time for student

assistants? Is that in that right there? How do you allot substitute time or

hours for the board with regard to student assistants?

MS DELANEY: The substitute time would be

included in the budget amount that is there. To be perfectly honest, there is

not a lot of flexibility there for substitute time. That is an issue some boards

do have.

MR. HEDDERSON: For example, in that particular

school board operation you are over on the insurance. Is it possible that the

department has the flexibility to help boards out in these situations? Is there

anything there for that?

MS DELANEY: I think we would have to look at

our total priorities in the department, if we have some flexibility under the

insurance. We would have to look at all areas of the department and determine

where the greatest need was.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues, I think, with

substitute teachers, as well, was the unusually high sick leave.

MR. HEDDERSON: You just stole my question. Good

job, minister.

MS DELANEY: With respect to the student

assistants, if I may, even though I do not have the numbers in front of me, it

is fair to say that the amount of money that has been put into student

assistants over the past four to five years has increased significantly.

Government has increased the allocation for student assistants almost every year

for the past three to four years for sure, because it is an area of a

significant demand.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under substitute teachers, and

again this seems to be a difficulty, there is the number of sick days. Minister,

you just referenced it there. I am particularly concerned about the professional

days. Because to convince the school board to give teachers professional time is

very difficult. Oftentimes, for three days at a stretch - because if you have

been in-serviced in anything, it is very difficult to go in one day. Teachers in

most boards are allotted probably one or two days of professional development

and they have to choose, and it is very difficult.

Like I said, the amounts there for the substitute

teachers are the same, so I suspect the problem is going to be there again in

the upcoming year. Is there any flexibility there to ensure that the teachers

get the professional time they need to be in-serviced in their particular areas?

MS DELANEY: The amount we have built in there

for 1999-2000 is $10 million. Which in fact, except for last year, 1998-1999,

was a little bit of an abnormal year, I guess, to some extent. Prior to that the

amount that was spent for substitute teachers has been about $9.5 million on an

annual basis. Therefore if you compare previous years to the amount that we have

available in 1999-2000 then we do have some flexibility there. The problem that

we have, however, is that in the past fiscal year, 1998-1999, there was a

significant overrun of about $1 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: So I see it as a problem. Just

addressing it with the $10 million you have there - I do not know if it is going

to address it. Because with the decline in the number of teachers you would

think that there would be a decline in the number of substitute days, but I

guess it is an ongoing problem.

MS FOOTE: It is something we are going to have

to watch very closely, obviously.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, do you have any idea

why last year would have been abnormal? Has the abnormal become the normal now

for this year?

MS FOOTE: No. I think again it was the

unusually high sick leave that happened last year. We are working with the NLSBA

to look at that and to see what the issues are here and how best to address

them.

MR. HEDDERSON: Primarily, is it sick leave? Is

that the big bulk of what it is?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Of course, that points to a

problem. Like you said, it needs to be looked at.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: I would like to see a lot more

of it being for professional development days and travel with teams and so on

and so forth.

MS FOOTE: I also have some ministerial

discretion within the department in terms of - and I think about 400 days were

used last year, allocated last year for that. So teachers who wanted to travel

with teams or teachers who wanted to go away on some exchange program, I think

it was about 400 days last year we utilized for that. This year I think I'm up

to about 150 days already.

MR. PRESS: Minister, if I could just add

something. There is a ten-year profile of substitutes. Actually, it has declined

almost regularly each year for the last ten years, with the exception of last

year where it went up slightly. It has gone, in terms of full-time equivalent

units, from about 460 days steadily down to about 324 days. Last year it went up

for some reason to about 370 days, so it went up by about thirty days.

I think that sort of underscores the need for

things like wellness awareness courses and things like that just to try to get a

handle on what was the root cause of this. Is this an anomaly just last year, or

is this something that we might have to be very alert to in the coming year?

MR. HEDDERSON: The bus transportation in this

is covered. That is all the transportation needs in the system, so to speak.

Again, there is a slight increase and I question it. Is that anticipating cost?

Because I would say the numbers are down.

MS FOOTE: Is that the 2 per cent wage increase?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, so that is the...

Under 2.1.06, School Supplies, I was very curious

about the response with regard to instructional materials. I understand there is

an increase in that area right now. Again, could you give me the breakdown of

what materials you are referring to?

MS DELANEY: We should have a split for school

supplies. I am just trying to find it now. Because of the $4,519,100, normally

something over $2 million of that is for replacement texts in the K-VIII system.

The remaining portion is for new text books. I am just trying to find in our

notes the actual split for you. Do you know what page it is on, Dave?

MR. LEWIS: No, I don't.

MR. HEDDERSON: The reason I asked the question,

Madam Minister, is that getting those instructional supplies, especially for

exceptional children, has been a difficult task. I will be very interested to

find out what initiatives you have taken. Because a lot of the text books were

not put on tape, you know what I mean, and it was difficult to teach the

different subject areas to the children. I'm hoping that you are going to be

able to tell me that you added more subject areas to it.

MS FOOTE: Again, in implementing the Canning

report, $244,000 was used for alternate formatting of materials, like Braille

for instance, books on tape and that.

MR. HEDDERSON: What areas? Language text books?

Which books have you - I know the supply that was there last year. Has that

increased?

MR. PRESS: I cannot answer it, but it would cut

across all areas. Mostly language arts, particularly the primary grades. That is

where the greatest need is right now. There would be a fair bit in social

studies but I could not give you (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: However, you have increased

(inaudible) from last year.

MR. PRESS: Oh yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the main thing question,

that you are moving forward.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. HEDDERSON: Also on text books, one of the

more difficult things to do in the schools is to recover the textbooks that are

given out to social assistance recipients. I am not sure how successful it has

been. Is this part of your department or another department?

MS DELANEY: When the program was implemented to

require students of social assistance recipients to return the textbooks to the

schools, I think that was in fact in response to many letters that we got from

principals, teachers and from other groups with respect to the desire to ensure

that the textbooks were returned and were available for other students. We have

had that program in place now for about three years. I am new to the department,

as the minister said earlier - three of us in fact are new - so I do not know if

there has been an evaluation done on how successful that program is. There is no

doubt that we need to look at it and determine as to whether it has been

successful, and if not, what changes do we need to make to the program to ensure

that it is administratively efficient and it is achieving the original

objective.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that reflected in the revenue

here as to how much was recovered? Do you have any breakdown?

MS DELANEY: It does not show in the revenue.

How it shows is in the amount of textbooks we would have to buy. What would

happen is that if the child returns his or her textbooks, then that basically

means that there would be less textbooks that the Province would have to buy. It

is not shown in the actual revenue. The revenue is from students in grades

IX-XII where they pay a portion of the cost for the textbooks.

MR. HEDDERSON: My understanding is that in the

schools and that, that is part of their budget. When they bring out the books

and these slips come in and they are all tabulated, then they are sent in. Where

does the money go? The principals will send it in to School Supplies, and they

will send it down to another department, I assume. So you are not paid for the

books.

MS DELANEY: For the social assistance

recipients?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS DELANEY: My understanding as to how the

system works is that we are not paid for the books per se. It just means that we

purchase. In our subhead here, .04, Supplies, we would purchase fewer books

because of the social assistance recipients returning the textbooks.

MR. HEDDERSON: I mean the new books that are

given now -

MS DELANEY: That comes in under revenue under

Revenue-Provincial, .02.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is my mistake.

MS FOOTE: The $1 million.

MS DELANEY: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: I'm sorry, Florence. I had you

on the wrong page there, right? Initially. Because like I said, the program,

from what I have seen from it, is not a successful program and that is what is

causing me some concern. That it is set up and the department is taking the time

to set it up, and I tell you the recovery rate in my past school was very low.

MS FOOTE: That is interesting. Do you have a

percentage, or do you know?

MR. HEDDERSON: I will tell you, I will not talk

about figures. Out of ten, let's say, if we just use the number ten, I would say

one.

MS FOOTE: Alright.

MR. HEDDERSON: It could be above or whatever,

but that is why I was curious to find if indeed the same experience has been in

other schools. I know there was a lot of backlash about having to collect it and

that. It is very difficult, because once your exams are over, especially in the

high school, the students will bring the books home and your collection

possibilities are more limited, plus the fact that they have to bring the books

in and almost put them on your doorstep, which perhaps is not a dignified way to

do it. There were different factors involved, but I was curious on a provincial

level as to how successful that program actually is.

Under 2.1.07, the French school board, I am just

curious about the setting up of the French school board because there appears to

be a federal-provincial agreement here. I just wonder what was that agreement

and how is it playing out. Because it seems as if the federal funds are getting

less and less. Again, Minister, what would have been the agreement and what

stage are we at right now?

MS DELANEY: I do not know all the details of

the agreement. I forget the time frame but I do know that the amount of funding

from the federal government is declining on an annual basis. I thought the

agreement was a seven- or ten-year agreement, so it has a fairly long time

frame. The provincial contribution will undoubtedly increase to some extent if

the federal contribution starts to decline.

WITNESS: Florence, I can probably speak to that

a little because I met with the board this morning actually and talked about

this particular issue.

There were actually two different federal

agreements that came into play here. The first one was for the past two fiscal

years and the other one is for six years, which goes out for another four. The

agreements front-loaded the funding that went to the francophone board in the

early years on the federal side and if the federal revenues drop off over the

six years then the provincial revenues increase. The reason why there was a lot

of front-loading at the very beginning was the one-time cost in actually getting

the board up and running.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the Province has kicked

in extra dollars as you can see, but the question is this. Is it enough to make

sure that this board keeps up and running, so to speak?

MS FOOTE: The last meeting I had with them

certainly indicated that it was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.01.01, Curriculum

Development, there is fluctuation in the salaries there. Have we lost anyone or

changed it around?

MS FOOTE: There was an entrepreneurship

education project and that has been completed, so the individual who was

responsible for that -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but all the other areas

apparently have been filled right down through.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Curriculum Development,

the reorganized high school is one of the main areas that needs to be looked at

with regard to - and I am looking at what stage it is right now, as to how many

courses, total, you are going to develop and replace the ones that are now in

the system. If you could give me a total of the courses I would appreciate that.

At what stage are we at right now?

MS FOOTE: Do you mean the prescribed curriculum

right now in the department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Now I know the math is

probably coming on stream in September. There are courses coming on stream in

September of 1999, 2000 or even 2001. I think two years ago the Level Is would

have been under these new certifications. Again, this is with regard to course

development and the actual courses that are going in. Because we are taking out

some of the courses now, the textbooks are running out, you are not replacing

them, but the new courses are coming on stream. Again, could you just give me a

total of the courses that will be available? When is it going to end? How many

courses are there, and where are we right now?

MS FOOTE: Do you have a breakdown, Harold?

MR. PRESS: Yes. For example, this year we are

social studies, re in elementary and senior high, art and design, Phys. ed.,

science, career preparation and technology (inaudible).

There are a number of pilots that are scheduled.

Literature, primary mathematics, grades I to III, Mathematics 1204, Science

1206, Healthy Living 1200, Integrated Systems 1205. Technology is in grades VII

and VIII, and World Geography 3000. Also, New Language Arts 2201, and

Mathematics 2204, World Studies 3206, Science 2200. Biology 2201 has been

developed, Chemistry 2202 has been developed, Physics 2204, and Phys. Ed K-VI.

That is the plan in curriculum development this year.

(Inaudible) quite (inaudible). We have ten

consultants across the span from science and language arts to primary,

kindergarten, technology, fine arts, enterprise ed., mathematics, community and

economic development and social studies.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, the question is this.

When will the first true graduates of this reorganized high school - because you

mentioned some of the primary and elementary ones - come out with the courses

that are supposed to be in place for the reorganized high school? 2001?

MR. PRESS: I'm not sure if I understand the

question. Our curriculum has been under development for the last number of years

and we have graduates every year, so I am sort of missing the point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Two years ago the reorganized

high schools were brought on the table and courses are being developed as we

speak. Last year I think it was six courses, this year you have mentioned

probably another six. Right? What I'm saying is that you mentioned you are

piloting these particular ones, but what I'm saying is that we are still on the

old and the new. So my question -

MR. PRESS: I don't think you will ever have

anybody who was actually going to be a new graduate from everything new.

MR. HEDDERSON: It has to happen sometime and

that is what I am asking. When will the graduates truly go through the

reorganized high school?

MS FOOTE: That will take a number of years, I

would expect, by the time all of the new courses are introduced in the system.

This is going from thirty-six to forty-two credits.

MR. HEDDERSON: Forty-two credits now. They do

forty-two credits over three years. As a matter of fact, the reorganized high

school is talking about forty-six or probably forty-eight credits, giving

students the opportunity to do courses not only in the classroom but outside.

When the reorganized high school came in, we assumed that it came in for a short

period of time, but obviously the pilot courses must be dragging.

MR. PRESS: It is a long time, and it takes time

to develop a curriculum. It takes time as the teachers' committees get

established, as they go through the development process, as we go through the

pilot process. We will be highlighting I think it is eleven courses this year.

Then it will take a strategy to do the implementation, to Train the Trainer, and

then to actually implement the course to be going and actually to assess them as

that course is implemented. Then we have graduates coming. It does take time to

fully develop a curriculum.

For APEF, social studies for example, we have for

the high school program now about a four-year projected time frame by which to

fully implement that new social studies curriculum. It takes time.

MR. HEDDERSON: The money that has been spent on

this, where would that show up in the budget?

MS FOOTE: In Curriculum Development?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: Would that be under Purchased

Services? Well, Salaries certainly in terms of (inaudible).

MR. PRESS: Certainly Transportation and

Communications, Salaries, would be most of it. A lot of the curriculum

development is in travel and so on for teachers to come together as committees

and so on.

The actual consultants themselves, while they are

there, and they are highly qualified and very specialized and so on, the old

paradigm was that they sat down and developed curriculum. In the new paradigm is

that they do not. They basically coordinate committee work where they bring

together art teachers and science teachers and so on who actually, themselves,

develop the materials and so on.

Once that happens, then they look at what kinds of

resource materials are required. In some cases, new resource materials may have

to be developed or contracted out, and you have printing costs and so on.

Contracts have to be done to get the materials available so that we can actually

distribute these materials. Then you have to go into a training professional

development scheme where we do Train the Trainer now which is a different

paradigm, where we go into the school boards and train people who can go out to

schools and basically do in-service and so on on that curriculum.

MS FOOTE: Harold, do you want to speak to what

we are doing with the other Atlantic Provinces in terms of curriculum

development as well?

MR. PRESS: We have a major strategy on APEF

that was committed some years ago. The curriculum, for example social studies,

now we are looking at the full K through XII, Level III social studies which

will be done through the Atlantic Provinces. That takes time because now not

only are we coordinating provincial committees of teachers and so on who

actually develop curriculum, but now we are trying to coordinate that on an

interprovincial level and so on. Part of our commitment is coordinated with the

other three Atlantic Provinces in a number of curriculum areas such as social

studies, science and chemistry now. That has been in effect for a number of

years and is probably our one true public exam that we have right now for the

last, I guess, three years.

MR. HEDDERSON: What area are we taking the lead

in with regard to the Atlantic?

MR. PRESS: We take the lead in a number of

areas. For example, in part of, I think, the intermediate social studies we are

they lead, and part of the religious ed we are the lead, and a number of others.

I cannot recall (inaudible).

WITNESS: Math.

MR. PRESS: Mathematics, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.02, Language Programs,

under the First Language and the French Immersion programs, the federal

government is involved. Obviously, the First Language is with the school board,

I would assume, and the French Immersion is with all the other school boards.

MS FOOTE: You mean the francophone board?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. I would assume the First

Language - would that be correct?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The French Immersion then would

be dispersed amongst the other ten boards?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is the criteria for the

French Immersion Programs with regard to the boards? Is it divvied up, how would

I say, equally? Like, if someone wanted a French Immersion program out in

`no-name' cove, could they possibly apply and get it? How is it done?

MR. PRESS: It is usually determined by the

board based upon the demand. For example, if there is a program down in Torbay -

and it is basically driven by demand - if there are enough parents down there

the board will try and put the resources together to offer a French Immersion

program. If there are three parents there it is unlikely they would. I do not

think the economics would be there. It is usually driven by need and where the

economics are such that they can offer the program. It is up to the board to

really determine where it will offer those.

MS FOOTE: I guess the question would be: Are

the resources available to us if all ten boards wanted to offer French

Immersion?

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, is there a cap on

French Immersion? In the sense that the board has to apply to - you are the

keepers of the fund. Even though it is federally funded, you are the keepers.

Therefore if a board has a need, as Harold has pointed out, they would address

it to you. Do you just look at the need or do you say: So much goes to this

board, so much goes to that board, or whatever?

MS FOOTE: We respond to the boards,

essentially, until we run out of the money that we have.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under 2.2.03, Distance

Education, how many sites do we have now?

MS FOOTE: Eighty sites, Province-wide.

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that the same as last year?

Have we added any new sites this year or do you anticipate any new ones?

MS FOOTE: We have nine district networks now

and that is the eighty sites. Is that an increase?

MR. PRESS: It is a very marginal increase.

(Inaudible) it was in the high seventies last year so it is not a significant

increase.

MR. HEDDERSON: The courses offered in Distance

Education, do you have the number and the nature?

MS FOOTE: Senior high course enrolment for

courses offered through Distance Education are as follows. We have six in

French: French 2100, French 2101, French 2200, French 3200, French 3201 and

French 4225. We also offer Psychology 4220. In math you have three advanced math

courses. You have Business Math 3202, Calculus Readiness 3105 and you have Math

1300, Math 2200, Math 3200, Math 4225, and Statistics 3104. Under science you

have Biology 4221, then you have three chemistry courses and three physics

courses.

There is social studies, European history 4225,

then tech ed.: Communications Technology 2104, Design Technology 2109,

Keyboarding/Wordprocessing 1101, Design Technology 2109, Flexible Manufacturing

System 3220, Home Maintenance 3108, Integrated Technology 1215, Microcomputer

Systems 1100, Manufacturing Technology 1220. There is also Marine Technology

2128, Power Mechanics 2103, Robotics 3221, Technical Applications 2146, and two

woodworking courses. All these through Distance Education.

WITNESS: I am asking that because that is a lot

of courses. I think I may do woodworking myself.

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible) do it. Holy heavens. I

was prepared to rhyme off the math, science and the French.

MR. HEDDERSON: Anyway, my point would be,

Minister, that what drives the courses, and if indeed what you have read off

range of it. The only question is: Are they available through all the sites and

can the schools access to them?

MS FOOTE: I do not know. I expect there would

be different subjects available through different sites, again, I guess,

depending on the wishes of the board as well in what they have indicated they

would like to have available.

MR. LEWIS: A lot of the additional expenditures

that were in Distance Education last year were involved in establishing district

networks as opposed to one provincial network, which allows the districts more

flexibility in timing and the programs that they offer.

MR. HEDDERSON: That would be the Purchased

Services there, Dave -

MR. LEWIS: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: - that jumped up, I do not know,

(inaudible).

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is a one-shot deal, so to

speak, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will go on to the next one

down, 2.3.02, Student Testing and Evaluation. Again, my colleague has been there

before me. Under Student Testing and Evaluation, would this be where the CRTs

would be located? I am just curious about them because it does take a lot of

time and effort. What is the cost associated with the CRTs?

MR. PRESS: The cost runs about an average of

between $5,000 and $10,000 each so these are significant.

MR. HEDDERSON: As in each grade level, the

III-VI to IX-XII?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Under the -

WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Hedderson. Just for the

edification of us non-teachers, what is a CRT?

MR. HEDDERSON: Criterion Reference Test. I'm

sorry about that.

This particular program you are going to continue.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What have you found are the

benefits of this? I will tell you why I ask. At the grade III level I find it

difficult to understand why you would administer tests to a grade III and take

the time and effort to do it. I think it is Harold I would address it to. Have

you had anything in the way of negative feedback from -

MR. PRESS: A lot of the negative feedback tends

to deal with the time it takes to do it and whether or not it is an appropriate

time in a school year (inaudible) be testing, whether or not as a classroom

teacher you have covered the material that has been tested on. Many teachers

might feel uncomfortable, for example, that we are doing the CRT during a

particular month in the year and we have not covered some of the material there

and are uncomfortable with the test at that point in time.

It does take time to do the test and so on. It is

not without its downside, but at the same time it gives us a good indication of

whether or not the material is being covered in the curriculum, and gives us an

indication of how we are throughout the Province in terms of testing in various

particular areas, such as mathematics and language arts and so on.

MS FOOTE: Are those the only two areas that we

do?

MR. PRESS: No, we do CRTs in language arts,

mathematics, French Immersion, social studies. We don't do them all for the same

grades in the same year. We do different grades, different years.

MR. HEDDERSON: Do they end up doing the same

ones in VI, IX and XII?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: If you start off with language

arts, and you are going to do language arts in VI, you are going to do it in IX

and you are going to do it in XII. So your control group would be there.

MR. PRESS: You do not want to do it in every

year. You want to do it in a group of years by which you get some sense of how

students do at the end of primary, how they do generally at the end of

elementary, and how they do generally at the end of intermediate school, or what

we used to know as junior high.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Support Services,

2.4.01, I have to ask the question under .04, Supplies. There is a little bit of

a difference there.

MS FOOTE: Under where?

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Supplies.

MS FOOTE: Yes. That is the one that I guess the

other Tom asked the question about, with respect to implementing the Canning

report.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will follow through. Could you

indicate why so much, and what aspects of the report?

MS FOOTE: This would have to do with the

learning resources. Again, taking the material and getting it translated into

Braille, putting books on tape, and anything that would be required to assist

the special category teachers in carrying out their functions.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, we looked under School

Supplies and you were doing the same thing there.

MS FOOTE: No, that is the $244,000. That is

where that one is coming from specifically.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under Student Support Services,

right there, the extra money that was used last year was used to action the

Canning report. The Canning report said that you had to put together this

instructional material. (Inaudible). Back in School Supplies you also said you

were doing that as well. Is this a duplication?

MS FOOTE: Maybe that may have been my mistake.

MR. HEDDERSON: Because there was a hundred and

something dollars back there too, right?

MS DELANEY: We talked about it when we

referenced what was spent on the School Supplies, but the money for supplies,

for the Canning report, was all spent under Student Support Services Supplies.

The full $244,000 was all spent under Student Support Services Supplies. No

money for Supplies for the Canning report was spent under the School Supplies

subhead.

MS FOOTE: That would be the textbooks?

MS DELANEY: Textbooks.

MS FOOTE: Then that would have been my mistake

because I made the assumption that it was all covered under that one.

MS DELANEY: But it is not.

MS FOOTE: It is not. Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: That was a one-shot deal too,

wasn't it? We won't expect the same thing this year.

The Pathways Document has been implemented. Where

does that show up with regard to cost or in-service? Does that show up under

this or is that Curriculum Development?

MS FOOTE: What aspect of it?

MR. HEDDERSON: The Pathways Document is a

document that has been, I suppose, slowly implemented into the schools starting

with the high school and now moving down through the grades. It is a document

that calls for a lot of in-service. I was interested in finding out how much is

going into it, not only last year, but what is going into it this year?

MR. PRESS: The Pathways framework is a

framework by how we, essentially, look at (inaudible) allocations. The PD is an

interesting one. We were using sort of a cascade model by which we do a lot of

train the trainer. We go out and work with the school board staff. I think we

have done the train the trainer sessions and so on in eight out of ten school

boards now. Those trainers will go out and meet with different schools and

in-service the issues related to the Pathways framework.

MR. HEDDERSON: With 6,000 plus teachers what

stage are you at now?

MR. PRESS: In terms of what we have done with

the train the trainer, we have done eight out of ten boards. For example - I do

not have the data on all the boards - I believe the Burin Peninsula has almost

implemented fully throughout their board in terms of professional development

throughout, and the trainers have been trained and so on. I think there are only

two boards left where we have done, actually, some initial work but we plan to

go do a more comprehensive train the trainer, I think, three-day session with

the other two boards, probably within the next several weeks.

MR. HEDDERSON: So the Pathways Document is now

being used in the school, is it not?

MR. PRESS: The Pathways framework is a

three-year phased-in process of which this is only the first year. It is not

something that we will in September 1, 1999 have fully implemented. It is one

that we will phase in over the next three years. Hopefully the documentation

that is required to really identify all the children (inaudible)

exceptionalities who need modified programming and so on, we will achieve that

within the next three-year period.

MS FOOTE: I think some boards were under the

impression - or wanted to do it all in the first year. That was causing some

difficulty out in the system because of the pressures being put on the teachers

to get this done and get it done the first year. That certainly was not the

directive from the department. It certainly clearly was a three-year process.

MR. PRESS: We recognize that there is a lot of

misinformation about Pathways out there and so on. We need to do a better job in

communicating that. One of the things we have done since we have arrived in the

last few weeks is begin a meeting with the NLTA and NLSTA and so on and work

through some of the issues around Pathways, and see if we can alleviate some of

the concerns, change maybe the processes, try and address some of the

expectations, and do a better job communicating with and among teachers on this.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is a distinction here too,

because the Pathways document, Minister, was introduced in the high schools not

this year but a number of years ago. This one is almost, if not fully,

implemented.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: So all the high schools in the

Province now should be in the second or third year in the document, right?

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is right.

MR. HEDDERSON:

Whereas you are saying that the

primary, elementary and intermediate would be another two or three years.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: On to 2.4.03, Newfoundland

School for the Deaf. Just globally there, there is a decrease in the funding for

the Newfoundland School for the Deaf, not in every category, but it just seems

that the bottom line in some areas, like Transportation and Communications,

Supplies, Purchases Services, and in Property, Furnishings and Equipment is

lower. I assume that this institution would be under a set budget and if they

are given, for example, for Property, Furnishings and Equipment, .07, $34,800,

that they will spend $34,800. If they are given $199,300 for Purchased Services,

.06, they will (inaudible) and spend it.

I'm correct in assuming that the principal or the

administration of that particular institution has a set budget, but in some

areas it is down. Is there any reason for that?

MS FOOTE: That was an across the board

operational reduction, but we are having another look at that.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is my question exactly.

Because, again, I know the great work that has been done in there and I would

hate to see that type of an institution get cut, for obvious reasons.

MS FOOTE: Under Purchased Services you are

looking at things like the laundry and catering, so we have to be careful there.

We are going to go back and have a look at that area.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think I will stop there, but I

reserve the right perhaps to ask another couple of questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Hedderson.

Mr. Parsons is next, and then we will come back to

Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Press, I guess it is, Mr.

Osborne raised the question initially about the decline in the number of

teachers, urban versus rural. Did I hear you correctly that there has been a 1

per cent decline of teachers in the urban areas and it is 16.7 per cent in rural

areas?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MR. PARSONS: Not withstanding the SNES schools,

there is still that much of a discrepancy, 16 per cent? Why would that be?

MR. PRESS: It is probably because there was an

18 per cent drop in enrolment.

MS FOOTE: In rural.

MR. PRESS: During that same period, the

enrolment in rural schools dropped from 50,000 students to 40,000 students, just

about 20 per cent. The number of teachers in rural schools dropped from 3,500 to

2,900, which is roughly equivalent to about 4 per cent less, (inaudible) about

15 per cent or 16 per cent in the last three years.

MR. PARSONS: Yes. I do not have a question, but

I would comment, though. I think your department is to be commended from what I

have seen here tonight in the way you people have handled your questions. If

this team just got together, you are certainly a Stanley Cup contender or will

be very shortly. Given the promptness of your answers, I would think that the

Question Period would be substantially reduced after this.

CHAIR: Mr. Ottenheimer.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a few questions on some of the topics

that have been covered by Members of the Committee. On the topic of insurance, I

am just curious about something. Madam Minister, you mentioned that, I think,

the insurance coverage is done in conjunction with another department.

MS FOOTE: Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: A portion of that is allocated

for schools, so I'm assuming all the schools in the Province are insured under a

blanket policy. Is that right?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: What is the arrangement in

terms, for example, of a deductible? Is there a deductible clause of some

significance that would be associated with that insurance, I suppose resulting

in the fact that the premiums are now lower? As you have indicated, or I think

Ms Delaney mentioned, the rates are now lower. Is there a higher deductible that

the Province would pay in the event of a substantial loss?

MS DELANEY: Not to my knowledge. The deductible

has normally been about $1.5 million, I believe. Have I got it right, David?

MR. LEWIS: In the last year on the EIC projects

it was about $3.5 million, actually.

MS DELANEY: No, that is cash only.

MR. LEWIS: Yes, but there were a large number

of projects that were involved there. (Inaudible) two rates.

MS DELANEY: I think where we have been able to

benefit is because of the fact that instead of in the past, where we went out

for a school property insurance policy and Works, Services and Transportation

went out for their government buildings property policy, we have gained because

of the fact that we have been able to combine efforts and go out with one tender

call.

I would have to double-check, but to my knowledge

the deductible has not increased. We have gained because of the fact that we

have bulk purchased, as the minister said, and the rates have come down as a

result of that.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So is there a deductible for

each loss, Mr. Lewis? Is that what you are referring to? Or is there a maximum?

How would that work?

MR. LEWIS: My understanding is they accumulate

to a maximum. Is that right, Florence?

MS DELANEY: It is an amount in any one year,

apparently. The way the policy works, or the way the policy did work - I do not

know how this year's policy works, because it may change - was that the

government would be responsible for the loss up to $1.5 million in any one year.

Any loss in excess of that would be covered by the insurance policy. When Dave

refers to a payout of $3.5 million in one year, that may have accumulated over

three or four years because we do not pay until such time as we actually rebuild

some of the buildings that we would have lost.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: How would that be reflected in

the Estimates? Is that done in the allocation to each school board? For example,

if a portion were paid under a policy using $1.5 million as an example, where

would that be reflected in the Estimates?

MS DELANEY: We pay that through the

Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation. The monies that we

now flow to the Education Investment Corporation, that Corporation is

responsible for paying not only for the normal construction, but also for the

Province's deductible in the event of a loss under the insurance policy.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Again, I just may not be

reading this correctly, but looking at the Newfoundland and Labrador Education

Investment Corporation for this year, there is no figure.

MS DELANEY: That is right. Because what we have

done is given the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Corporation a

total of $50 million over the past three years, so they have more than

sufficient funds right now to handle any deductible they would required to pay

for an insurance loss, as well as to handle the cash flow required for the

projects that are ongoing for the upcoming fiscal year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: On that point then, and

looking at the construction board, that figure of $29,900,000, which is revised

in the 1998-1999 budget, is that taking into account the total of two years or

is that just last year?

MS DELANEY: No, that is taking into account a

total of two years, and perhaps a little bit more than two years.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I have a question on school

buildings. Where we have had significant consolidation and closure of schools

over the past while, we have a lot of vacant buildings in the Province, and a

lot of facilities that are essentially closed up. What steps are being taken by

the department to either lease, sell, use again as a public facility, or sell

privately these facilities?

I am thinking of one example in particular. In the

community of Long Harbour a school was closed I think last year, the children

all bused to Whitbourne, and there is a beautiful gymnasium facility there that

I think was refurbished some two or three years ago to a cost of $250,000. When

the school closed in the last academic year so did that particular facility; so

did the gymnasium that is attached to the school. What does the department

envisage will happen with a facility such as that example in one Newfoundland

community?

MS FOOTE: In some cases we have had some

expressions of interest but I think those particular - correct me if I am wrong

- facilities have been church-owned property. Of course, we have not been able

to do anything along those lines because presently the boards are in

negotiations with the churches in terms of disposal of those particular

facilities.

We really haven't had any expression of interest

for other facilities but we certainly would entertain them. We have nothing to

stop us from entertaining them to see how they could benefit a community.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Has the department taken any

steps to promote that concept in the communities where schools are now closed

but are still there and available to the community? Perhaps not as schools, but

certainly as a facility that may be of some benefit.

MS FOOTE: Not since I have been there. I do not

know if it was done prior to my coming but it is not a bad idea in terms of the

community being able to access that type of facility. Someone would have to

purchase it because if anyone were to use it we would be liable if we still

owned the property, clearly, so we would have to -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible) insurance policy.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Now to the textbook policy in

schools. I know it was, and I am assuming that it is the same, that for the high

school text book the student pays a certain percentage.

MS FOOTE: It is subsidized.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Primary and elementary are

fully compensated by the department. Is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Under 2.l.02, School Board

Operations, in the heading there it mentions:

"Appropriations provide for the administrative and

operational costs of the Province's schools, insurance of school property and

the payment of allowances to those students who are required to live away from

home in order to attend high school."

What numbers are we talking about in terms of

students who are required to leave their home in order to attend high school?

MS FOOTE: Fifty-four students.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Fifty-four students? Just out

of curiosity, what communities would theses students (inaudible).

WITNESS: Southeast Bight, (inaudible).

MR. PARSONS: I had three communities, Petites,

LaPoile and Grand Bruit.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: These students would leave

them and where (inaudible)?

MR. PARSONS: Port aux Basques.

MS FOOTE: Where they would board.

MR. PARSONS: They would board out in Port aux

Basques.

MS FOOTE: Rural Newfoundland.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Fifty-four students is the

actual number?

MR. PRESS: Yes, I checked it today.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you.

I have a question on francophone education, under

2.l.07, Francophone Governance. If you compare that with 2.2.02, Language

Programs, we see under Language Programs that all costs are recovered from the

federal government. However, under Francophone Governance, and even with the

francophone school board, you see approximately 50 per cent or 60 per cent of

costs are recovered. Do you agree that I am approximately correct? What is it we

pay for, as opposed to the federal government paying for, in terms of

Francophone Governance as opposed to the Language Programs?

MS FOOTE: Do you know the agreement inside out?

WITNESS: There is a 75-25 cost-shared agreement

under Francophone Governance to establish the school boards.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So it is not broken down in

any way. It is just a total expenditure and then just a percentage is applied,

is it?

WITNESS: Then there is cash flow over so many

years.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I see.

MS FOOTE: It is not specific in terms of what

they pay for and what we pay for (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: If I may, I am going to go

back again to Transportation of School Children. That is under heading

2.1.02.10. I think my colleague alluded to it in his questions. Again, it refers

to the, I guess, closure of schools and the amalgamation of others, and yet we

see the costs of Transportation of School Children essentially being the same

the last school year, or the year 1998-1999, compared with 1999-2000 in the

Estimates.

Is there some rationale that may be offered to

explain that equality of cost in terms of transportation when in fact we have

seen significant closures and the eroding of duplication of services?

MS DELANEY: Part of the reason why the cost has

remained relatively the same is the 2 per cent salary increase. Half of the

budget probably goes to board owned busing and the other half goes to contracted

busing. We have to pay as well for new buses that we purchase and we have to pay

the annual lease payments on those buses.

The other thing as well that we have to look at as

a department is whether, now that most schools have been reorganized, we can

enter into long-term contracts for contracted busing, and then hopefully they

will enable us to save some money in that area. That is something we intend to

look at over the next year or so as we look at that whole area of busing.

MS FOOTE: We are also anticipating some

increased busing costs in the St. John's area because of some of the closures.

We are meeting with the board on that to look at that as well.

MS DELANEY: One of the problems with busing

normally is that if you enter into just a one-year contract with a private

operator then that operator has to try to cover his or her costs for the bus

within that one-year period.

Whereas once you have your schools re-configured,

and if you are able to enter into a five-year contract with a contractor, then

that would enable us hopefully to reduce our costs in this particular area. It

has been pretty difficult to enter into five-year contracts until such time as

you have your school system re-configured.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There was a policy I know in

the past in the department that buses could be purchased if they were some

thirteen or fourteen years old. I think we had a policy that was - the age of

buses was of some concern. I know other provinces had a practise of buying older

buses as well, but not to the extent of here in this Province. Has that policy

changed, that thirteen or fourteen year old policy?

Basically, a bus contractor in Newfoundland can go

to Chatham, Ontario or over to Edmundston, New Brunswick somewhere and buy buses

that are thirteen or fourteen years old, take them back to this Province, and

put them on our highways. We have our children travelling greater distances

because of what is happening in terms of school closures and so on. Has that

policy been looked at at all to see as to exactly what sort of limit should be

placed on the age of buses before they go on our roads?

MS FOOTE: I am sorry, I am not aware of that.

MS DELANEY: I am not sure whether the policy

has been revisited or not. Again, going back to the point I made earlier, if we

can enter into five-year contracts with bus operators out there it will give us

an opportunity to be able to request buses of, perhaps, less than ten years of

age, and still within the same total dollar amount that we would have available.

You have to remember that it is Motor Vehicle Registration, in fact, that

actually determines the safety regulations with respect to school busing. They

are the ones, if I recall properly, which have set the age restriction at

fourteen years.

MS FOOTE: It is fourteen, is it?

MS DELANEY: It is fourteen. It used to be

fourteen.

WITNESS: It still is.

MS FOOTE: It still is?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Getting back to the point made

by Madam Minister, busing in St. John's, just obviously out of an interest in

that because it involves my own district, is the department looking at the

possibility of busing students even in areas where public transportation is

provided?

MS FOOTE: I guess the discussion that we are

having with the board to date is in areas where it is not provided, where the

public transit does not go at this point in time. That is the first priority,

clearly, to make sure that those students are able to avail of school busing. We

haven't taken -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible) policy now though,

isn't it?

MS FOOTE: If you look at down in Signal

Hill-Quidi Vidi, for instance, there are children down there now that go to

school in other parts of the City. There is no busing available to them but they

have to make their own way. We have been looking at that particular area to see

what could be done there to try and accommodate those students for sure.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The question on the

pupil-teacher formula comes up all the time, (inaudible) sixteen to one,

seventeen to one, or whatever. Every time it is mentioned it is always

qualified: We have a great pupil-teacher ratio, seventeen to one, or whatever

the number is. Then the response to that is: Oh yes, but that includes guidance

councillors, librarians, administrators or whatever. Is it possible that some

consideration may be given by the department to revise the formula, but a true

formula, so that it is not necessary all the time to qualify it when it is

expressed? Because everybody now knows anybody dealing with education always

says: It makes no different what the point of it is because we are including a

whole host of people that have nothing to do with actual classroom instruction.

MS FOOTE: It is the same across the country, by

the way. It is not just Newfoundland.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Can we lead the way perhaps

and really address the issue and see if we can come up with a true formula so

that it is not necessary to always have to qualify?

MS FOOTE: In terms of the pupil-teacher ratio,

again, that is how the formula is applied across the country so they include

everyone. In terms of being comparable, what we are saying is that our

pupil-teacher ratio is, again, compared to what it would be in other provinces

given the same number of teachers, whether it is guidance counsellors,

librarians or whatever they are.

What we have undertaken to do - and I undertook to

do this two months into the portfolio - essentially was to look at teacher

allocations and the basis on which they are being allocated, primarily because

we have gone through education reform when it comes to the consolidation of

schools. I think if you look, particularly in rural Newfoundland, that there is

not much left to be done. Some boards still have three or four schools that they

will be looking at closing, but I would say I think it is a safe bet to say that

the majority of the consolidation has in fact taken place.

We now really have to focus on programming. When I

say focus on programming, it is just not to offer a core program but to look at

the needs of the special education student, the exceptional student, as well as

those in the regular stream, to make sure that we are offering a program in

every part of this Province. Equality of programming is what we are looking at

and we have agreed to do that working with the stakeholders. What I am trying to

do first is get a handle on what is happening in the rest of the country as

well, trying to find out what courses are being offered, for instance.

You know, we offer a variety of courses under the

prescribed curriculum right now. In the high school, for instance, there are

about 162 courses under the prescribed curriculum. There are another 101 courses

that are not part of the prescribed curriculum but are courses that have been

developed by teachers for those who have a special interest in a particular

area, whether it is German, Spanish, interior design, or whether it is a

particular calculus course. You have over 270 courses that are out there that

can be offered in the high school system.

We really need to look at the programs that hare

being offered. This is why we are saying now the second step, now that we have

gone the consolidation route, is now to look at curriculum development,

professional development, and try and get a handle on the courses that we should

be offering, so at the end of the day our students will have the best possible

access to those courses that will enable them to go on and compete anywhere in

the world.

Some of the courses we are offering now - textiles,

woodworking, safety in the workplace, interior design, those types of courses -

which there are not a lot of them available in rural Newfoundland, mind you,

more so in the urban areas, but I had a principal say the other day: One of the

courses we are going to lose because of teacher reduction is woodworking.

While that is a good course and one I am sure

students would like to take, we have to start thinking of stakeholders in

education and involving the NLTA and involving the Newfoundland School Boards

Association, and the parent or the school councils, in looking at the curriculum

as well to make sure that what we are offering is a good sound program.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, I notice that we

have not really gotten into post-secondary, which is a significant part of the

Education Estimates, so what I will do, if I may, is maybe afterwards just be

able to come back and ask questions from that area.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: I do not have any questions at this

time, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIR: I guess it comes back to Tom the elder.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of questions for post-secondary

actually, and then I will pass it to my colleague to ask a few others. Under

Program Analysis and Evaluation, 3.1.01.01, Salaries, the budget has gone up for

this year, from what was actually spent last year, by an additional $86,700. Can

the minister give some explanation as to why there is an increase in that

allocation?

MS FOOTE: These are the costs associated with

the two additional monitors that were hired for the monitoring of the private

colleges. Again, a lot of this stems out of the Warren report.

MR. T. OSBORNE: .03, the Transportation and

Communications component, as well there is an additional $41,400.

MS FOOTE: It is costs associated with that in

travel with monitors.

MR. T. OSBORNE: With those monitors, okay.

Under .02, Revenue-Provincial, I have noticed that what is budgeted for the

provincial revenue is the same this year as was budgeted last year, but what was

received as revenue was considerably less. Can you give us some explanation as

to why we did not receive what we had anticipated receiving?

MS WALSH: The revenue comes from the

registration fees from private schools. The revenue that was originally

allocated was not received because there were not as many schools registering as

it had been anticipated there would be. Some of the schools that had been in

existence, perhaps just offering one program, did not re-register, discontinued

(inaudible).

MS FOOTE: I guess some of them would have been

offering programs under the TAGS programs. Of course, once the funding ran out

they ceased to exist.

MR. T. OSBORNE: You are anticipating higher

registrations this year?

MS WALSH: We are anticipating that because

there have been new campuses, in some cases, of existing schools, for

registration purposes these will be considered in the schools. So there has

been, I guess, an offsetting with respect to additional campuses of existing

schools.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Native Peoples' Teacher

Education, 3.1.02, there has been an increase in the allotment of revenue from

the federal government. Can you explain why - not that we are complaining - the

increase in the allotment?

MS WALSH: No, I do not think I can, but it

certainly does relate to the teacher education associated with the native

teachers' education program. I do not know if Dave can answer that. I think

perhaps it is just a recognition that there may be an increase in the number of

people, for example, who wish to access that program, and somewhat demand driven

in that sense.

MS FOOTE: Would there be a pay increase of any

sort? How much is it?

MS WALSH: It would possibly -

MS FOOTE: Twenty-four thousand dollars.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Almost $24,000. It is $400 shy

of $24,000.

MS DELANEY: If you look at page 180 of our

Estimates, as well, you would see that Native Peoples' Education has two

components. One is the K-XII component, the other is post-secondary. We are up

in both areas, in fact. The amount that we normally get from Native Peoples'

Education is determined through negotiations between our department and the

federal government. That is an area, I think, where we have been getting some

increased funding over the past couple of years. If you look at K-XII, 2.1.03,

it is also up for Native Peoples' Education.

MS WALSH: That would be somewhat demand driven

on the post-secondary side. If there are more people wishing to access the

teacher education program than we had negotiated, the amount would certainly go

up on the post-secondary side.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Provincial College,

3.3.01.10, Operations, Grants and Subsidies, there is an increase there of

$4,977,300.

MS FOOTE: That was the contribution of the -

remember? - $4.9 million which was provided so that they would freeze tuition

for two years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: We notice under .01,

Revenue-Federal, that there is no federal revenue this year.

MS FOOTE: Yes. HRDC has ceased the practice of

providing funds to the Province for seat purchases. We have been in negotiations

with them for some period of time. Pam, I understand there may be a change of

heart on that, where they may in fact be looking at getting back into that

again. Do you want to elaborate on that?

MS WALSH: Yes. The federal government used to,

under a government to government arrangement, purchase seats from the provincial

government and (inaudible) the provincial college. For that purchased seat they

would give us in the order of $3 million, $4 million or $5 million depending on

the number of seats they wanted.

They had a made a decision over a couple of years

ago that instead of doing that kind of government to government negotiation in

terms of seat purchases they would let the individual student decide where they

wanted to go for post-secondary education, and then they would simply give that

student however much tuition it cost to go to the institution of their choice.

We have been in negotiations with them because that

causes some difficulty with respect to planning, knowing how many students that

you are going to get, or how many seat purchases you are going to get as an

institution from the federal government, and making sure that you provide that

level of programming. We are anticipating now that we will in fact get an

allocation from the federal government much like we have in the past.

So we are anticipating that we will get much like a

government to government revenue again. Although it is a complicated and

convoluted kind of process, and it would probably take me about thirty minutes

to explain what it is they intend to do. If you want that I will do it. The

bottom line is we will sign off on a contribution agreement which will see the

federal government give to the provincial government a sum of money in the order

of approximately $11 million that will be for training of EI clients.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Newfoundland Student

Loans Program, 3.4.03.09, Allowances and Assistance, there has been a

considerable increase there. How would you explain the increase under Allowances

and Assistance? Is it due to higher enrolment?

MS FOOTE: Increased demand, and higher loans

remission take-up as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The tuitions have been frozen

this year, is that correct?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: We still see a huge increase

though in the Allowances and Assistance.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We have also seen increased

interest subsidy because of the higher rates as well. There is a number thing.

We anticipate an increase in the risk premium because the banks now are not

looking favourably at continuing on in terms of making student loans. We are

anticipating some increase there as well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: How much has the student

enrolment increased?

MS WALSH: In terms of the student aid or the

overall increase in enrolment in post-secondary?

MR. T. OSBORNE: In enrolment.

MS WALSH : Over the last four to five years it

has increased significantly (inaudible) 20 per cent. I do not have any figures

in front of me so I will qualify that, but there has been an increase. I might

have that information in here.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is approximately 20 per

cent?

MS WALSH: Over the last four or five years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That is mainly through public

colleges?

MS WALSH: It would be a combination of public

institutions, including the university and the public college, but there has

certainly been a significant increase in numbers of students accessing

university education. It would include private colleges as well.

MS FOOTE: To that point, Tom, (inaudible) the

number of borrowers in 1994-1995 was 13,154, and in 1997-1998 it went up to

22,719, a 73 per cent increase over that period of time.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is interesting in a way,

because Memorial is getting $2.7 million less this year then they did in 1996,

yet we see a tremendous increase in the number of students that are attending

Memorial University.

MS FOOTE: Pardon?

MR. T. OSBORNE: I say Memorial University this

year is getting approximately $2.7 million less than it did in 1996, yet we see

a huge increase in the number of enrolments at Memorial University, just as an

example.

MS FOOTE: Do we have the numbers in terms of

the increase at MUN, the percentage (inaudible)?

MS WALSH: No, I do not have (inaudible) numbers

in front of me, but over the last, as I said, four or five years there has been

an increase in the students attending post-secondary. Memorial University's

enrolment levels in the last couple of years have not increased significantly

because you are getting a declining enrolment from the declining number of

graduates from the K-XII system.

So while, if you go back four or five years you

will see that there has been an increase in access to post-secondary education,

in the last couple of years Memorial University's enrolment levels have levelled

out.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Okay, but there is an almost 20

per cent increase in the enrolment this year from last?

MS WALSH: Overall. No, not in Memorial

University. I said there is approximately a 20 per cent increase in students

accessing post-secondary education over the last four or five years, including

Memorial University.

MS FOOTE: The private colleges and (inaudible).

MS WALSH: The private colleges and the College

of the North Atlantic.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So is there an increase or

decrease in the enrolment at MUN?

MS WALSH: In the last couple of years there has

not been a significant increase in enrolment at Memorial.

MR. T. OSBORNE: There has not been an increase?

MS WALSH: From last year to this year I think

there has been virtually no significant change in their enrolment, which is

interesting. Because you do have a declining student population but they are

still maintaining status quo in the last couple of years, despite the fact that

there is a declining enrolment in the (inaudible) processing.

MR. GALWAY: In fact, Memorial University's

enrolment peaked in about 1993, undergraduate and graduate enrolment. We have

seen a decline since 1993 which, of course, (inaudible) to the decline in the

number of graduates coming out of the K to XII sector. Memorial takes a large

percentage of its undergraduates directly from the K to XII sector. In fact, 61

per cent of our graduates go on to Memorial University and they are experiencing

some enrolment decline.

CHAIR: Mr. Galway, could you come closer to the

mike, please?

MR. GALWAY: (Inaudible). (Inaudible) if I can.

MS WALSH: Just if I can clarify that? Memorial

does take a broad view, too, of its enrolment. They are saying that this past

year their enrolment has not significantly declined. They have indicated that it

has maintained status quo. They have included in their stats students who are

attending the College of the North Atlantic in the college transfer program who

are, although they are college students, in fact intending to go to Memorial

University in their second year. They included those students in their stats and

they said, for example this past year, that they have not seen a significant, if

any, decline in their enrolment, but we see it as a decline. As you said,

Gerald, they peaked two or three years ago in enrolment.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Newfoundland Student

Loans Program, 3.4.03.02, Revenue-Provincial, what was budgeted last year and

what was actually collected. We had a budget of $50,000 that dissipated under

provincial revenue. We only collected $7,500, and this year the budget is

$20,000. Can you give some clarification on why the discrepancy in what we

anticipated and what we actually collected, and why we are anticipating only

$20,000 this year, roughly 40 per cent of what we anticipated last year?

MS WALSH: (Inaudible). What we are anticipating

is that we will be able to recover student-paid overpayments in a more effective

way than we have in the past. We have realized that we have not been as

efficient as we could have been in collecting these overpayments and we intend

to put a process in place. In fact, we are putting one in place now to collect

on overarrears.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So you collected far less than

you had hoped last year. Where did the system go wrong?

MS WALSH: Our system is in terms of the

tracking and following-up on students who are in overpayment. We were not as

efficient as we could have been so we have improved upon the process.

MS FOOTE: Good point. (Inaudible) we made less

overpayments.

MS WALSH: Yes.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have one other question and

that is under Provincial Information and Library Resources, 4.2.01.10, Grants

and Subsidies. We are giving them this year $91,100 less than we gave them last

year. Why would we give our provincial public libraries less money?

MS FOOTE: Would that have been an across the

board cutback?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS FOOTE: We don't have an answer, Tom. You

have finally stumped us.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Alright, I will let you go

home. If you had told me that in the first few minutes we would have been out of

here.

Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions from

this side?

MS JONES: Mr. Chairman, I think the members

opposite have covered all aspects of it quite adequately.

CHAIR: Probably then some.

MR. HEDDERSON: I just have one more, Mr.

Chairman.

MS JONES: Mr. Chairman, if I could I would like

to say that the responses were also covered very adequately.

AN HON. MEMBER: Except for one. Put that in the

record.

MS FOOTE: I have to get that answer

(inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS FOOTE: I hate not having an answer.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, the thing that is near

and dear to my heart is the literacy. I just want to draw attention to it.

MS FOOTE: Yes, and mine.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think there was $500,000 set

aside. Is this the money there, the $431,000?

MS FOOTE: The $931,000?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It is a one-shot deal, the $500,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, so that is the shot.

Again, the emphasis, Madam Minister, is of concern. I know at both ends there

are real needs, but I'm making a plug for the early intervention. I think it is

most important, and I think in the long run these special needs children that we

are addressing, sometimes not very well, because of the nature of their

exceptionality -

MS FOOTE: That is a very valid point.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, I would encourage the

department to look at ways, almost from the womb, because the more money or the

more attention you put in at that end, the better. I will end off on that note.

MS FOOTE: Let me just say that I think it is a

very serious issue. We are working with Human Resources and Employment and

Health and Community Services to look at the education of the child below

kindergarten, seeing if we cannot have a continuum there. So, take a child from,

maybe, age two, pre-school, and then on through the school years. It is a very

valid point.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I have one question, Mr.

Chairman. It has to do with the public libraries.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Again, the issue of the

university enrolment is (inaudible), and in due course may even go down

somewhat. There seems to be an increase in the trend of our graduates leaving

Newfoundland for post-secondary studies at other universities and other

colleges. Has there been a study undertaken, maybe even a very cursory sort of

informal assessment done, on the kinds of numbers we are looking at of our Grade

XII graduates who opt to leave the Province as opposed to staying, compared with

the practise of maybe five or ten years ago?

MR PRESS: I think that is a really valid point

and probably a really (inaudible) one to talk about. The whole issue of

demographics is probably one of the most serious issues facing us as a province,

not just in education, but in all parts of what we do.

The K-XII system has seen this for twenty-seven

years. It has been in decline for twenty-seven years with one exception, and

that was the year we introduced grade XII (inaudible) up.

The biggest affect it is going to have in the next

decade will be at the university level, at the college level, where even if

participation and graduation rates top - participation can only reach 100 per

cent, it cannot go any higher - then what it means, in fact, is that there are

going to be declines at the post-secondary level, both at the college level and

at the university level, in the coming decade and so on.

That will certainly be a huge challenge for us as

we look at how we deliver post-secondary programs. Not just maybe through our

university, but through distance delivery mechanisms and so on. We are going to

have to look at the K-XII system as well as to how we deliver programs, how

broad and expansive that program should be, and how we can best approach this in

an effective manner and so on. That certainly will be a huge challenge for us in

terms of looking at that at the post-secondary level.

MS FOOTE: One of the issues is, again, we are

(inaudible) Province (inaudible) look at Central Newfoundland. There is a

tendency to go to Nova Scotia, and certainly the same is true on the West Coast

of the Province. This is a discussion that I had with Memorial even when I

worked at Memorial. Are we, in fact, marketing ourselves, marketing the

institution enough throughout the Province, and even offering distance education

throughout the Province for first-year university, to build that kind of

allegiance as well? That is an ongoing discussion now at Memorial. I think with

the new president coming on, Dr. Axel Meisen, (inaudible), I'm not sure

(inaudible) which, but in discussions that I have had with him to date he

clearly sees the institution as a provincial institution and has every intention

of getting out around the Province and talking up Memorial. Instead of having

students looking more favourably at St. Francis, Acadia or Dalhousie, in fact

they would be inclined to come to St. John's or at least do their first year or

offer more in the way of distance education in Central - we have (inaudible) for

Grenfell - but again, trying to build the student population for Memorial.

MR PRESS: Just to get back to your initial

plan, of the graduates, in the (inaudible) survey that we have, 53 per cent went

on to Memorial and 8 per cent went on to universities elsewhere. Another 20 per

cent went to the public college and 17 per cent went to the private colleges.

That number leaving the Province is going up very

marginally but the number also going to university is going up at a more

significant rate. Both of those indicators, I think, are real positive

indicators of how far we have come in the last decade or two. I would think if

we were here ten years ago the issue we would have talked about would have been

dropouts. It is an issue which we have come to terms with as a province,

significantly greater in the last decade or so. Now we talk about other issues

of these other things.

One of the real outcomes, a great indicator, has

been the numbers who are going on to post-secondary, who realize that high

school completion is only a milestone of many that you must move onto and keep

going to, either on-the-job training or other college and university training.

MS FOOTE: In fact, follow-up studies from the

grade XII level show that 80 per cent of graduates now enrol in some form of

post-secondary education with nearly two-thirds enrolling in university. So we

have come a long way.

MS DELANEY: Can I answer the question on the

libraries board (inaudible)?

There was an extra pay period in 1998-1999, plus

the salary increases were retroactive to January 1, 1998. Therefore, there was

retro salary included in there for 1998-1999 plus an extra pay period. That is

how come it would come down in 1999-2000.

WITNESS: It is not the resources, it is the

extra pay.

MS DELANEY: Right. It is the extra pay period

and the retro. I remember it from my former position.

MS FOOTE: Thank you, Florence.

MR. T. OSBORNE: That would come under Grants

and Subsidies?

MS DELANEY: Yes, it would. Most of that money

is for Salaries, in fact, for staff (inaudible).

MR. T. OSBORNE: The pay increase last year

would be offset by the pay increase this year because it has gone up 2 per cent

for this year.

MS DELANEY: No. The pay increase last year -

the amount we had to fund funded agencies - was about 3 per cent and some odd,

because they went retroactive to January 1, 1998. It was not paid out until

sometime in the latter part of 1998-1999. So the actual cost of salary increases

in fiscal 1998-1999 for the government funded agencies was something over 3 per

cent and some odd because it went retroactive to January 1, and there is an

extra pay period. I remember it because of my former position.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions?

MR. PARSONS: I just wanted to make one comment

of the issue of kids leaving the Province. St. James Regional High in Port aux

Basques (inaudible) personal knowledge. I would say that not only are you losing

a lot of kids from Western Newfoundland to the mainland for geographical reasons

or whatever, but you are losing the best kids, the brightest kids. I would say

80 per cent of your honour students from that school have gone to the mainland.

I don't think it has to do with just geography. I think it has to do with

scholarships and things that are being offered as well.

MS FOOTE: Yes, that is another issue. Which is

why we introduced the $4 million bridging program as well, as a government, to

try and take up that slack there, trying to make sure we offer as much in the

way of scholarships as we can.

MR. PARSONS: It is a real brain drain.

WITNESS: You know, 85 per cent of the people

who are leaving are under the age of 35.

CHAIR: Any further questions?

There being no further questions, I shall ask the

Clerk to call the heads.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.02, carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Very well. Before calling for a motion

to adjourn, I would just remind Committee Members that we meet again tomorrow

morning at 9:00 to go over the Department of Health and Community Services in

the same room, I believe, Elizabeth.

Minister, thank you very much for being here this

evening, and for putting up with all of the questions from the members to my

right. You notice that the members to my left were a little more gentle.

MS FOOTE: I have not passed my flu bug along, I

hope. (Inaudible) my colleague tomorrow. She is home with it today.

CHAIR: I thank you very much for being here.

Yes, on that point, the Minister of Health is at home today. We hope and expect

her to be here at 9:00 in the morning. As far we know, right now she will.

However, time will tell.

The Committee adj

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	1999-05-19
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_socialservices_ga44_1999-05-19_ssc-edu_.htm
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	56a26073d84a73740e54b4a6496f1c22933372b9

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