ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVlll No. 45 - 10:00 a.m., FRIDAY, 25 APRIL, 1980 Printed by W. T.Matwichyna. Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 25 April, 1980 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle­ Russell): Before we proceed, I would like to ask the person record ing if that jackhammer nois e interferes at all? We'll proceed then. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Petition of The Winnipeg Foundation, praying for the passing of

An Act respect ing The Winnip eg Foundation. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Memb er for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progr ess and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, that report of comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne) introdu ced Bill No. 49,

An Act to amend The Ombudsman Act (R ecommended by the Lieutenant-G overnor), and Bill No. 35,

An Act to amend The Legal Aid Services Society of Manitoba Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER : Before we proceed with Oral Quest ions, I should like to dr aw the honourable members' attention to the gallery, where we have 36 students of Grade 11 standing, under the direction of Mr. Wiebe. These students are from Warren Collegia te, and this is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Government Services. We also have 75 students of Grade 6 stan ding from Voyageur School, under the direction of Mr. Kreger. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs.

On behalf of all the honourable mem bers, we welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question to the Deputy Premier in the absence of both the First Minister and the Minister responsible for Housing.

In view of the report of the first quarter of thi s year indi cating tha t housing starts have decreased by 82 percent since the same quarter last year, and the fact that this is the worst record for any province in Canada, in addition the fact that's apparently the worst since records have been kept in the province of Manitoba, it rises to the question to the Deputy Premier, as Minis ter of Finance, are there any proposals being planned in order to regenerate the housing and the construction industry in the province of Manitoba in his upcoming budget. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minis ter of Finance. HON.

DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, the report on the housing starts is not an encouraging picture. The problem has been nailed down, as recently as this week, by the western Premiers with regards to the interest rates, and the prime cause and the prime examples of the worst problems with regards to housing are specifically caused by the high interest rates and the housing stock, let alone the housing starts, is having a difficult time. And there's not going to be any real solution to it until the int erest rates come down, and that's the long and the short of it. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I've certainly not been aware that int erest rates in Manitoba are higher than the int erest rates in Prince Edward Island or Nova Scotia or New Brunswick or British Columbia.

The record in Manitoba is much worse than elsewhere, so I further ask the Deputy Premier whether or not a study has been done to ascertain the econ omic impact upon Manitoba of the declining construction field, particularly in view of what has happened to Ensign Homes, what is on the verge of happening, apparently, accor ding to public reports in regard to Bestl ands Hom es, companies terminating their operations, jobs lost to Manitoba and the general overall multiplier effect.

Does the Minister of Finance have a study, or is he in the process of preparing a study as to the detrimental economic effects upon the province of Manitoba of these developments. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the problem doesn't requi re very much study. The pr obl em is very evident. You already have a surplus of homes on the market that cannot be sold and therefore it draws the immediate conclusion, why start more? But for the Leader of the Opposition to suggest there's some thing unique about the Manitoba position is to paint the picture incorr ectly.

The province of British Columbia, that normally runs 20 to 30,000 housing starts a year and is in a desperate housing crisis, 2935

Friday, 25 April, 1980 plans - doesn't plan but expects - under the present crisis conditions, to start only 1,000 homes. Now they have a real crisis on their hands. The crisis is the same across Canada. The numbers may be sligh tly different but the problem is the same everywhere. We happen to be in the position in Manitoba of not having the shortage of housing that the condition is in British Columbia but we have identically the same problem which is that people cannot afford to buy what is available. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, further to the Deputy Premier, reminding again the Deputy Premier that Manitoba's record is the worst in Canada including British Columbia in the first thr ee months of this year, is the Minister suggesting that indeed there is no need in Manitoba for affordable housing for low income groups; that in fact the surplus housing relates to housing that is not affordable insofar as large sect ions of the Manitoba popu lation is concerned; and that in fact his government has und ertaken no program, no action, in order to attempt to remedy affordable housing for those of lower and modest incomes. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is now talking about an entirely different matter. Of course there is a need for affordable housing. The reason that there are bankruptcies and the reason there are houses not being sold and the reason th ere are the Ensign Ho mes and the Bestlands and the others that are being advertised for getting into trouble, is that the housing is not affordable. But why isn't it, Mr. Speaker?

The basics of it is that the interest rates are too high and the int erest rates for MHR C to build houses, or anybody else to build houses, really boils down to pretty much the same fundamental basis; it's the cost of borrowing money and that's what it boils down to. There is no panacea for the problem of expensive housing, Mr. Speaker, that is going to bail out the present problem. It's going to have to come about as a result of int erest rates coming down to a point where people can afford to buy the kind of housing they want to be in and let's hope that happens fairly soon. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then in view of the Finance Minister's response, does he then concur that the policies which were advanced by the Clark Cons ervative government in Ottawa, by the present Liberal go vernment in Ottawa, rather than contributing towards a decrease in costs as it was intended, that their policies in increasing interest rates have in fact fueled the entire cost spectrum insofar as building costs and costs of li ving is concerned? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, apart from the int erest rate problem, the only government that has done anything, made any substantive move at all to assist people out with the costs of their mortgage; the costs of their homes; the costs of financing; the costs of money, which is the root problem, was the government he referred to, namely, the former Clark government. And when his party moved in the House to see that government defeated they also washed down the dr ain approxima tely 1 billion worth of credits that would have come back to people with high mortgages. Now, they seem to want to forget about the fact that . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order, order please. I think we're getting into a debate rather than a question period here. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Finance. Would he not agree tha t the fact many people have left the province has some thing to do with the unsold home s, in view of the fact that many of the unsold homes of Ensign Homes have mortgages on them at the old, fairly low int erest rates. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Questions of agreement again are debatable issues and really don't seek any information.

Would the member care to rephrase the question? MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Possibly I'll try a different one on the Minister of Consumer Affairs. In view of the fact there have been some bankruptcies recently in the housing industry and those companies had sold houses to people who are apparently living in them, who had received 5- year guarantees from these companies, could he advise the House as to whether there is any trust fund or other accounts available from which these guarant ees will be honour ed for tho se current home owners? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster for Consumer Affairs.

HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr . Speaker, I'll have to inquire as to the answer to my honourable friend's question. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Urban Affairs and ask him if he would report on his meeting in Ottawa conc erning rail relo cation, particularly in regard to the ill-fated efforts of the Winnipeg delegation and especially in regard to the misleading statements and false expectations raised by the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy during the past year. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, just in

summary, the Minister of Transport confirmed to the delegation tha t the only mone ys available to assist municipalities across Canada would be funds under the Urban Transportation Assistance Program. Under that program, Mr. Speaker, the province of Manitoba has allocated to it 10.2 million dollars, of which the province has allocated to the city the sum of 7. 6 million for either the construction of the Sherbrook­ McGregor Overpass or rail relocat ion. So that those are the only moneys available to the province of Manitoba and the city for rail relocation. With one small exception, the Minister of Transport advised 2936

Friday, 25 April, 1980 that he would review with the OREE Minister the pos sibility of moneys being available under the OREE program. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he can now confirm provincial support and funding for the long overdue McGregor-Sherbrook Overpass? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, it's well over a year ago that the province approved the city's application to construct the Sherbrook-Ma cGregor Overpass; it was approved by the federal government body and is on the desk of the federal Minister of Transport.

The licence to proceed with construction was delayed pending the study that was commis sioned by the federal gov ernment. The Min ister of Transport advi sed tha t he is pr epared to appr ove th e construction of the Sherbrook-Mc Gregor Overpass immediately, as soon as the city indicates and the province indicate they now wish that to again go ahead, in spite of the previous reso lution from City Council.

So that I expect the Minister of Transport, within a few days to advise whether there is any pos sibility of funding under OREE, and at that time if the City Council will deal with their previous reso lution and make a further decision with respect to construction of the overpass. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Elmwood with a final supplementary. MR. DOERN: Mr . Speaker, I'd ask the Min ister whether, assu ming that City Council gives quick approval and there's also quick federal approval, are they in a position to commence construction in the next 90 days? MR. MERCIE R: Mr .

Spe aker, I can 't gi ve an accurate date as to the comm encement of construction based on the presumptions of the Member for Elmwood. I would think there would have to be some actual planning and design work by the consultants for that project, but it certainly raised a question that we presented to the Federal Minister. The UT AP agreement provides for mone ys to be actually spent during the final th ree years of that agreement and we've raised the concern that there may be a cash flow problem un der the UTAP agreement and the Mini ster undertook to review that with his officials and respond on that. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARAS IUK: Mr . Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health. In view of the fact that there is a strike at the Golden Door Geriatric Centre, can the Minister assure us that all the patients at that geriatric centre, in fact, will receive alternative care and especially that residents will not be, in a sense, pushed onto relatives who are not in a position to look after them; and that alternative public facilities are available to deal with the strike that is taking place in a private profit­ making nursing home? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. SHER MAN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr . Speaker, I give the honourable member assurance of that. MR. PARASIUK: Can the Minister confirm that the strike at the Golden Door Geriatric Centr e is between a certified union and an owner who refuses to negotiate a first cont ract with the union because it might cut into his profits too much? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is my understanding of the situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: Could the Minister also confirm tha t the owner of this particular profi t-making establishment was inv olved in a simila r exercise thr ee years ago when he tried to break CUPE union, as well, and that his anti-union proclivities are quite kno wn and that these are in fact cutting into the health care qual ity at that particular institution because his first motive is obviously profit. MR. SHERMAN: I can't confirm that, Mr.

Speaker, but I can assure my honourable friend that I am very un happy with the situation at the Golden Door Nursing Home, particularly the current dispute, and I think that there is considerable onus on the owner of the operation. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minis ter of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Spea ker, some time ago I indicated to the Member for St. Vital that I would tabl e the letter that I had written to the thr ee premiers of the western provinces in February with regard to the Western Power System Study. I would like to table this now in reply to his question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister for tabling the letter. He also gave an undertaking at the same time that he would table the Appendixes to the UNIE S Report and also supply a copy of the Foster Report; will he still supply those documents? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the appendices, I'll check that; there should be copies available. With regard to the Foster Report, we have only one copy in our possession and we haven't received another copy yet from the province of Alberta.

We have asked them for copies of it and if they come in I'l l make sure they're distributed. MR. WALDING: One supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. When the Mini ster does receive further copies of the Foster Report, would he also make one available to the Chief Executive Officer of Manitoba Hydro. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, that question I don't think is really necessary. The Manitoba Hydro people 2937

Friday, 25 April, 1980 are aware of the Foster Report and had an involvement in the studies that were subsequent to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance. I wonder if he could advise the House what effect the recently announced sales tax on gasoline and diesel fuel by the federal government in their mini-budget will have on the agricultural industr y and the trucking industry in Manitoba. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, it has been confirmed that contained in the mini-budget among the other taxes that were direct taxes in the area of usual provincial involvement such as the tax on tobacco and the tax on liquor and so on, that there was also contained in that statement a further tax on gasoline and on diesel fuel, and the effect of it is that it will increase and has increased, I guess this week, the price at the gas pumps by somet hing in the order of three-tenths of a cent per litre. Mr.

Speaker, this was not announced, as I indicated, at the time of the budget statement earlier this week but in fact is contained in the so-called fine print, which came about as a result of changing the gas tax in effect of 5 cents per gallon to a percentage increase of 9 percent. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance has a similar comment to make as to the effect that the 18 cent tax on gas and diesel oil would have had upon the Manitoba farm population. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I guess the arithmetic is probably reasonably straightforward; it's 18 cents per gallon and half a cent per litr e, if he wants to work it out. I think the conversion factor is 4.52 litres per gallon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agricultur e. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I wou ld like to respond to a question by the honourable lady from Fort Rouge in her question to the Minister of Health on the deterioration of milk under the fluorescent lighting.

The fact of the matter is that the study was zeroing in on the vitamins in milk, A, 82, and C, and in fact that I think the honourable member knows that's not a major source of vitamins for the human being and in fact the main products or the main makeup of milk, of course, are protein, fat, carbohy drates, and minerals, which were not studied. Another point I would like to make, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that just 12 to 15 percent of the milk in the province of Manitoba is deliv ered in pouches, of which there is an overwrap of those containers which does protect them somewhat from the fluorescent lighting.

Another item, Mr. Speaker, I would like to mention is the fact that there have been very few complaints from customers. A lot of the milk in pouches is delivered directly to the homes which would not be affected and in fact the study which was put in place at Guelph was done by a company who provide alternate milk cartons; cartons of a different form of which the complaints were raised about. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Honourable Minister really hasn't stated whether there is in fact any deterioration of the vitamin content of the milk in these containers, and I wonder if he can make any comment on that or, if he makes no comment, whether he can promise that he will be able to report in the future and what effect, if any, the fluor escent light has on the calcium content of milk. Older people are told to drink milk because of the fragility of their bones as they get older and - (I nterjection)- The experts on the other side mock that statement. It is a fact that older people are told to drink milk for that reason, Mr.

Speaker, and I wonder if there is any study under way in the province which would indicate whether the mi nerals, including calcium, are affected. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I, too, appreciate the member's comments on the fact that everyone in the province should drink milk.

The fact of the matter is that I think the evidence that we have is that people are able to get a sufficient supply of top quality milk that is provided in other forms of containers which in fact does not deterior ate the product which is within the contain er, and I think tha t the lo ng-term experience of the human race and the people of Manitoba understand that milk in any container is better than no milk at all. MRS. WEST BURY: Mr .

Sp eaker, wou ld the Minister please confirm - it seems to me he just a very definite statement to the effect that people should be drinking milk from containers other than plastic pouches, and I think if this is the position that the Minister is taking he should make it very clear, because th ere are very many people who are drinkin g milk from pouches purchased in stores. They want a definite answer from the Minister, from the front bench or the Ministry of this government, Mr. Speaker, as to whether one kind of milk is better and whether one kind of milk is deteriorated. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, without putting the question on the lighter side, I think that the fact that most milk we drink should really come from cows, I think has been the kno wn source and has proven over the history of this country that the fact that farmers have in fact done their best to put a top quality product before the consuming public. The problem is to get the consumers to pay an adequate amount so they can provide that product to the consumers. 2938

Friday, 25 April, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Again I have become a little concerned we might be getting into a debate rather than seeking information. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr . Speaker, I do wish to assure you that I am genuinely seeking information; I am genuinely concerned. I have two grandsons who drink milk from pouches purchased in the stores and I am genuinely concerned about this, Mr. Speaker, and I think that the Minister's last statement was an insult to the House and an insult to everyone who is seeking this kind of information, Mr. Speaker.

This is not a joking matter. Would the Min ister tell us whether in fact his de partment is making any statement as to the quality of milk that is coming in various conta iners, includin g pouc hes, that are stored under fluor escent lights in the House. Would the Minister please give us a straight answer to that question? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the information that I had provided to me from my department as far as the milk that is stored in pouches that may be affected by fluor escent lighting: No. 1, I said that 12 to 15 percent of the milk in the province is provided in pouches of which the majority of it is covered with an overwrap which does protect the product that's in the pouch; No. 2, the fact that the majority of milk in pouches or quite a lot of the milk in pouches is delivered directly to the home which the people have the right to protect in their best int erests, so I think, Mr.

Speaker, that with the alternativ e sources of milk that are available, that the population do have an opportunity to buy other sources, and it's their decision to be made whether they are not satisfied with what they're buying. As far as the quality of milk is concerned, that is checked by the dairy science department of the Department of Agricultur e so th ere aren't any contaminants in the product and not harmful to the people of the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I too would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Agricultur e, and ask the Minister that given the fact that the number of farms in Manitoba has decreased by 8. 7 percent between 1976 and 1979, which is four times the rate of decrease being experien ced in Al berta and Saskatchewan - and this is the information just released from Statistics Canada, Mr. Speaker, - can the Minister offer any explanation for the more rapid decline in the number of farms in our province as opposed to Saskatch ewan and Alberta. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, without accepting the premise from the Member for Brandon East, and without having checked those figures myself, the period which he would mention, it could be the fact that the farmers were suffering from the policies of the last government in the province of Manitoba. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the information was released by Statistics Canada and it indicates quite definitely tha t there was a loss of 2,800 farms between 1976 and 1979. So my question is, Mr.

Speaker, do these figures, this disapp earance of 2,800 farms, does this mean that there is a more rapid decline in family farming per se in the province as we know it compared to what is going on in our neighbours to the west in Saskatchewan and Alberta. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would be concerned if it was in fact the family farm units that were decreasing. I will take a look at the numbers that the member has brought to my atten tion.

However, I think that some of the problems that the farm community are facing have been the fact that they haven 't had pr ograms such as the Ma nitoba Agriculture Credit Corporation to lend money to help them buy their farms, that in fact the state over the last eight years in this province were in competition to tho se farms, th at in fact the Beef In come Assurance Program forced them to pay money back to the province instead of leaving that money with those particular producers, and I will look at what is happening in other provinces and I will say, Mr.

Speaker, I intend to continue to introduce programs such as the introduction of more rolling stock to move farmers grain off of Western Canada, out of Manitoba, so that they can in fact have a cash flow which is sufficient to service their debt and feed their famil ies. So I will comp are Manitoba to Saskatchewan and do everything I can to strengthen and increase the number of family farms in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Brandon East with a final suppl ementary. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, for the Honourable Minister's information, the rate of decline between 1971 and 1976 was much greater than it was in this period of 1976 to 1979. There is a considerably higher rate of decline between 1976 and 1979 than which occurred in 1971 and 1976, and the Honourable Minister should have his staff look at those figures as well, because there is no question this is a more rapid deterioration of farms. So my question to the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, which arises from his lengthy statement, is whether it is the government's policy to encourage larger farms in the province of Manitoba, consolidation of smaller farms; is it the policy of this government to move towards mor e corpo rate ownersh ip which the se figur es perhaps imply; or is this Minister about to bring in more effective programs to protect and preserve the tr aditional type of farm tha t we kno w in this province, namely, the family farm? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mih ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to state, and state very plainly, that I am a full supporter of the family farm that makes up the vast majority of the farmers in this province. I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that we will not be encouraging one farm like the last government, one big state farm with one big cattle herd, which was truly expressed by the past Minister of Agriculture in his debate here in the Ho use and in some of th e comm ittee 2939

Friday, 25 April, 1980 meetings; as he would like to have seen the oil companies in this country, one big oil company, so that in fact it's one big state like we kno w in countries of Russia or Cuba. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Logan. Order please. Order please. I realize that it's getting towards the end of the week. I would like to see the honourable members respect the right of all members to ask questions so that they can be heard by myself at least. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is also to the Minister of Agriculture and it is led from the statement that he just made to the Honourable Member for Brandon East. The Minister said that he is going to supply more hopper cars for the movement of grain. Is he intending to lease these or is he intending to buy some? MR. DOWNEY : Well, Mr.

Spea ker, for the information of the members opposite who never get informed from the one or two members from the farm community over on the other side, the answer to the question - and we've been announcing it over the last several months and I'm pleased to announce it again - we are leasing 400 hopper cars for the period of a year; 300 of those hopper cars are now in place hauling the grain and which the Premier participated in the first loading of the first hopper car.

The additional hopper cars will be in the system by the end of June and I am very pleased to announce that they are servicing the farmers in Manitoba in the best way possible. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I didn't want to kno w about the cars that he had already leased. The Mini ster was intimating that he was going to lease more cars or have more cars in service. That leads to a further question that I have for the Minister. The cars that the Minister is leasing at the present time, who covers the insurance; who covers the operating expenses and the running repairs of these cars?

Are they the leasing company or are th ey the railways? And from what leasing company is he leasing these cars? MR. SPEAKER: Order. Or der pl ease. May I suggest th at the ho no ur able mem ber asking questions of that detail might better be served by an Order for Return. The Honourble Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, the terms of the lease and the operating agreement were tabled with the Order-in-Council if the member prefers to look at it in detail, the agreements that were made.

The 300 that are in place now are leased from the Pillsbury Gr ain Compan y of the Unit ed States and the operating agreement and the other particulars are with the two railway companies, 150 cars to each of them. So that any details on that matter I could provide if he cannot find the specific details he's referring to in the Order that has been tabled. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Logan with a final supplementary. MR. JENKINS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Does the agreement that the Minister has with the leasing companies and also with the railways, does that also cover derailments, where cars are destroyed or partially destroyed? Does that agreement also cover that and who is responsible for that? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, su bject to referring to the agreement and further clarification, the understan ding that I have is, in fact, that all the operating and the risks will not be borne by the province of Manitoba, but we'll check out further on the specific details of that kind of a situa tion.

Hopefully we have seen all the derailments in the province of Manitoba that we're going to see for the next several months. But it is possible that there could be some details that he would like me to check on for him and I would do that. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr . Speaker, some time ago the Member for Churchill asked me about asbestos samples on the Leaf Rapids complex. I informed him at that time the samples were found to be free of asbestos.

I further advised him we would extend that look into the curling rink in Leaf Rapids and I'd to inform him that we found the samples there are free of asbestos also. We, at the same time, did sampling of the rink in that same complex in Leaf Rapids and I'm sure he's pleased to hear that they are free of asbestos also. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, I thank the Minister for that news which is indeed good news and wo uld ask the Min ister if his gov ernment is conducting any systematic program to determine whether asbestos is present in buildings that are used frequently by the public in the province of Manitoba; if there is any organized and systematic investivation ongoing at the moment? MR MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the member is aware that I'v e set up a comm ittee to review the handling and maintaining, inst allation, trucking, moving of asbestos in the province of Manitoba and I suspect that a systematic check of buildings of concern to us all - immediately of course are the publi c ones wou ld be part of the recommendations that they would come forward with. I don't think I should, at this point, circumvent their recom mendation s by plunging ahead in a bandaid sort of a situation. This is the first time a review of this type has been asked for by myself.

It's the first time any gov ernment in our pr ovince certainly has given enough credit to the problem and recognized it to the point where it is today, that now we are looking at the entire situation in the province of Manitoba. MR. COWAN: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I think the Minis ter is reacting to increased public awareness of the problem and while his government 2940

Friday, 25 April, 1980 does deserve credit for recognizing that, I think he has to be a little bit more honest and say that the reason that studies have not been conducted in the past may well have been that public awareness is increasing very rapidly.

I would ask the Minister now if he can indicate, in his opinion, if there is not a need immediately for the · investigation for asbestos contamination in public buildings as there may well indeed be such exposure being inflicted upon the public unknowingly and that he need no t wait until a comm ittee, which is obviously going to recommend that procedure, make that recom mendation to him; but that he takes some initiative and proceed immediately in dealing with this serious problem that is becoming more and more a problem of extreme pub lic concern and pub lic awareness. MR. DOWNEY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not going to debate with the Member for Churchill whether in fact we did it because of public opinion or whether we did it because of conscience. I suggest to him that governments, at whatever day and age a situation arise, th at if the y feel the y should act in a responsible manner they so do; and that's what we did in this particular case. We have involved a large number of people in this

part icular review of the asbestos situation in Manitoba. I think we've involved every sector, every sect ion of society that we possibly could from the medical profession, to engi neers, to unions , to truckers, to man ufacturers, and I think the y thems elves will be making recommendations that will suggest to us, in a responsible way, a way to deal with and look for an asbestos program that can be implemented for the province of Manitoba.

I don't think myself, or our department, running off in different directions trying to implement some thing in the near future, or within the next few days, is advantageous to the situation in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Churchill with a final supp lementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would merely inform the Minister that it has been almost a year since we brought this matter forward in the House to ask them to take action and that very little action has been taken in that time.

Can the Minister indicate when we can expect recom mendations from this asbestos commi ttee that has taken over a year to get into place? MR. MacMASTER: No, Mr. Speaker, I can't tell you when that particular comm ittee will have it's findings. The asbestos problem has, or certainly the concern, has been with society as a whole in our country and the United States for many many years and I say that I am reasonably pleased with the fact we now have a com mit tee in pla ce and it came by conscience of ourselves that some thing should be done at this particular time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono urable Memb er for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Health. In view of the Mi nister's earlier comments in this question period that the onus to resolve the dispute at the Golden Door Geriatrics Centre rested with the owner, can the Minister indicate if he's met with the owner to convey his views and to ensure that the matter is resolved? MR. SHER MAN: It is my und erstan ding, Mr . Speaker, that the owner was out of the city on business and returned to the city last night.

My views have been conveyed to him through the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. PARASIUK: In view of the urgency of the matter, is the Minister prepared to meet with the owner to try and resolve this matter as quickly as pos sible so th at residents do n't have to be dislo cated from that particular institution while this unne cessary act ion on the part of the owner continues? MR. SHER MAN: Well I'm certainly prepared to consider that, Mr.

Speaker, the conciliation officer is at work in the situation at the present time and there is a possibility that direct intervention by myself as Minister will not be necessary but I am certainly prepared to consider it. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona with a final supplementa ry. MR. PARASIUK: I would ask the Minister not only to consider it but to undertake it toda y, in view of the fact the strike has begun, in view of the fact the owner will not meet with the union and in view of the fact patients are being forced out of that particular MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please.

May I suggest the honourable member is being repetitive. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I'm asking the Minister if he will undertake the action, not merely consider it. There is quite a difference between those two words, Mr. Speaker, and I'm asking the Minis ter if he will undertake the action of meeting with the owner in view of the fact the patients are being forced out of that institution when they don't have to be forced out of that institution if the Minister will only act right now. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the honourable member that I have been acting and up to this point in time no patients have been taken out of the facility and it may not be necessary to take them out. It may be necessary for me to pursue the course suggested by the honourable member but the Health Services Commission is conveying that kind of information .and it may prove to produce the conclusion we want. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please.

The time for Question Period having expired, before we proceed with Orders of the Day, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery on my right where we have 25 students from the Oak Grove 2941

Friday, 25 April, 1980 Luther an High School Band from Fargo, No rth Dakota. On behalf of all the ho no urable mem bers, we welcome you here this morning. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I might just confirm, in order to accommodate members opposite, on Monday the Estimates of Urban Affairs will proceed even though Consumer and Corporate Affairs may not be completed. Once the Urban Affairs Estimates are comp leted we will then return again to complete the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Estimate. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would you call the Adjourned Debates on Second Read ing. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned Debate, Second Reading. Bill No. 2,

An Act respecting the operation of

section 23 of The Manitoba Act in regard to Statutes standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. (Stand.) Bill No. 6,

An Act to amend The Wills Act and The Mental Health Act stand ing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. (Sta nd.) Bill No. 16,

An Act to amend The Veterinary Services Act. The Honourable Member for Logan. (Stand.) Bill No. 27,

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Logan. (Stand.) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Go vernment Services that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Commi ttee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health and the Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): Commit tee come to order. We're on Resolution 38, 5.(cX1) - the Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: I would like to ask the Minister, Mr.

Chairperson, to briefly outline the functions of this department and the activities over the past year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr . Chairman, this branch is governed by The Clean Environment Act and the Public Health Act. It provides the direction, the supervision, the inspection and the enforcement, provinc e-wide, in the areas of waste management , noise control, radiation protection and quality of maintenance of air, water, food, together with technical laboratory services. MR.

COWAN: Would this be, then, the appropriate area in which to discuss the new environmental lab? MR. JORGE NSON: No , tha t wou ld be under Research and Development, unde r Environmental Control. MR. COWAN: Perhaps then, Mr. Chairperson, the Minister can give us an updated report as to the status of that lab; when it will be comple ted; what he foresees to be the function of it; who will be using it and the proceedures for the use of the lab. MR. JORGENSON: We're scheduled to move into the new lab about mid-June. MR. CHAIRMAN: I don't know whom I'm waiting on. The Leader of the Opposition.

Or was the Member for Churchill waiting for an answer? MR. COWAN: We were waiting for answer. MR. JORGENSON: The shor t answer to our honourable friend's quest ion is th at we are scheduled to move in about the middle of June and it will be occupied by Mines and Resources or Mi nerals Department and the Department of the Environment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposit ion. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, under testing I would like to ask the Minister a question pert aining to a particular situation to determine what tests have taken place in order to ascertain the degree to which acid can be diluted prior to its being permitted to be spilled into the sewage system or poured into the sewage system in order to avoid damage to the sewer system, specifically, in the city of Winnipeg? I want to give an example of a situation to the Minis ter, which the Min ister may or may not be aware of.

It is a situation involving Varda batteries and permission that they had received from the city of Winnipeg some time back to pour diluted acid into the city's sewer system. The city had thought, I supp ose, in giving the permission, I can only assume, that the diluted acid would not damage the sewer system. The end result, unfortuna tely, is that in the neighbourhood of 300,000 damage has been done to the city of Winnip eg sewer system and it's my understan ding that the city is attempting to claim this damage from the battery company.

I believe that there is continued pouring of diluted acid into sewer systems, but the damage necessitated replacement of the sewers in the neighbourhood of the battery company in this particular case. So I would like the Minister, if he could, advise what tests and what standards are applie d by his department in order to assist the city and other municipalities insofar as this question is concerned, the safe levels to minimize damage that may take place to sewer and other systems when supposedly 2942

Friday, 25 April, 1980 the diluted acid is permitted to enter sewage system as waste water. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if there's any determined level that is advisable or permitted. I think the safest thing is not to have any acid poured down the sewers at all but if that sort of a spill or that sort of thing does occur, then the more that the acid is dil uted, the less damage will occur. The department was made aware of that particular situation and, perhaps, my honourable friend would just wait for a moment and I will get the particulars as to ...

I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that the city gave them permission to dump the acid and since it has jurisdiction over its own waterways, we were not necessarily consulted, although we were informed of it. So the matter does come under the city of Winnipeg jurisdiction. MR. PAWLEY: The reason for my asking the question, though, the city obviously gave permission in the best of faith that no damage would be done and thinking that the dil ution undertaken by the battery company was adequate.

Obviously it is not because 300,000 damage has been done to the city sewer system and I think it's crucial that somewhere or other the provincial department and municipalities try to arrive at safe levels by which this sort of action can take place to minimize damage such as this in the future. So, does the department provide the city of Winnipeg with any guidance as to levels by which they migh t safely permit the companies to pour diluted acid into the sewer system? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, if the city of Winnipeg had consulted the department I think we could have provided them with some help in advance of the decision. However, we were not consulted and we only knew about it after they had gi ven permission for the dumping of the acid. They took it upon thems elves and it is their respon sibili ty, it is within their jurisdiction to do so.

I expect th at if pr oblems have arisen, as my honourable friend indicates as a result of this, it may be well to have a thorough investigation of the nature of the difficulties that have been created and perhaps some guideli nes or regulations should be developed. However, I do remind my honourable friend again that the city was within their jurisdic tion and authority authorizing the acid to be put down the drains. MR.

PAWLEY: I am not questioning the jurisdiction or the authority of the city, obviously though they did act on the basis of incorrect informa tion from somewhere and you say not from yourselves, but unfortunately maybe they acted in the absence of any information that would have assisted them; that apparently was the case.

So I am wondering if the Minister could advise whether or not his department will lo ok into some guid eli ne, maybe by the guidelines that the Minister intends to introduce to ensure that mistakes of this nature do not take place elsewhere, in other municipalities, city; that there are some safe levels, standards that are applied.

With the incr ease in the number of plants and factories utilizing chemicals of this nature there is increasing th reat to damage taking place within the sewer systems, within our municipalities; 10, 20, 30 years ago the th reat was mini mal but it is certa inly increasing with the use of chemicals. Unless there are some adequate standards required of munici pal ities pr ior to giving such permission, ratepayers could very well end up bearing tremendous costs because of errors, as innocent as it may have been here in granting permission. MR.

JORGENSON: It's unfortunate that the city did not see fit to - and perhaps they did, I don't know - to consult with the manufacturer of the pipe to determine whether or not any damage would result from pouring the acid down the drains. Our staff are available for consultation at any time and I find it a little bit surprising that they never took advantage of the opportunity of giving us a call to determine whether or not we had any observatons or any sugges tions to make to them.

Whether or not a regulation can be defined clearly enough to apply to that and other situations is something that we'll have to look into. But I agree with my honourable friend, it's unfortuna te that if the taxpayers are going to have to pick up the tab for a rather substantial repair bill as a result of neglect on the part of the city to ensure that their actions were not going to be harmful. MR.

PAWLEY: Can the Minister advise whether or not he or his department have information whether there was any lead within the acid involved in this particular case or in any other cases in which acid has been poured into the sewer system, sanitary system? MR. JORGENSON: Any lead within the acid? MR. PAWLEY: Yes, within the acid? Because in this case the reason I ask of course, it was battery acid in the particular case brought to the Minister's attention. MR. JORGENSON: Yes. I'm advised that most likely there would be lead if it was battery acid that was turned out. MR.

PAWLEY: I'm just wondering, in view of that, has there been any exploration by the department to ascertain whether there are any other consequences that could flow from this acid being poured into the sewage system? MRI JORGENSON: I'm advised that there wouldn't be; dilution would remove any other consequences. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Minister advise whether or not those PCBs are still in storage in the Werier warehouse? MR. JORGENSON: To the best of my knowledge I'm not sure whether .. . Yes, that is correct. They are still in storage at Werier's warehouse. MR. PAWLEY: I'd like the Minis ter's comments.

Apparently the department first became aware of the 2943

Friday, 25 April, 1980 PCBs in October of 1979 through Dr. Yee, I believe, in the department. The PCBs as I understand it were not in secure storage at that time, not in the same warehouse they are at the present time. They were not moved from tha t insecure warehouse till sometime in 1980, I believe it was, in February, approxima tely, of 1980. Why would there have been a delay of four to five months in ensuring, in insisting, that PCBs without question one of the most dangerous subs tances that's available to mankind, would be permitted to remain in an insecure storage during that period of time. MR.

JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, as my honourable friend is aware, we have no authority; the Act does not give us the authority to order the removal of those. The product belonged to Mr . Werier; he was advised of the danger of holding them and at the location that they first dis covered they were in close proximity to some food stuffs. We advised him of the dangers and told him that it would be better if he moved them out of there and into an isolated storage space, which is what he did eventually.

But I repeat that until we have brought in amendments to the Act, which will give us the authority to order their removal, we just simply have no authority to move them. Now, I'm sure that Mr. Werier would have been very happy if we could have taken them off our hands and, at the taxpayers' expense, moved them out. But I doubt very much if my honourable friend would have agreed to having the taxpayers shoulder that particular bill. MR.

PAWLEY: Is it not so that the PCBs were not, in fact, moved until the city brought pressure to bear upon Werier to move the PCBs, that the pressure which resulted in the moving of the PCBs did not occur, did not result from the city? MR. JORGENSON: It was not as a result of pressure brought to bear by the city. We advised them that they should be moved. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Mi nister assure us that legislation is going to be intr oduced this session, then, to ensure that this type of situation doesn't repeat itself? MR.

JORGENSON: Yes, it is our intention to bring in amendments to the Clean Environment Act which would, in effect, give us greater authority than we do have in matters of this kind. MR. PAWLEY: Sufficient authority to ensure that the PCBs would be removed within a specific period of time to secure storage. MR. JORGENSON: I'll leave that judgement to my honourable friend when the bill is intr oduced in the House as to whether or not we have that sufficient authority. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to assure my honourable friend that the opposition will provide all the support it can muster to ensure that the authority is as strong as is required, so tha t situations like this do not occur in the future. There had been allegations, and the Minister dealt with this in the House earlier, but there had been allegations; in fact there had been some leaking from one of the containers. MR. JORGENSON: No, there was no leakage from any of the containers.

What my honourable friend is probably referring to is a transformer, a switch assembly, which contained a lubricant that had been brought into the same storehouse and it was leaking. We tested the contents to determine whether or not it contained PCBs. It did not, so the leak was actually from the transformer that contained oil. MR. PAWLEY: I think it is a deplorable situation, Mr.

Chairman, if someone should buy a substance such as this with expectat ion of gain at the subs equent point and, in fact, because of a ban on PCBs is unable to do so, then continues to retain those PCBs and refuses to ensure their removal to secure quarters elsewhere for li quidation of elimination or, certainly, isolation, because of the cost.

Can the Minister assure us that the legislation that he will introduce to ensure that, firstly, the owner of such dangerous materials will be required to assume the cost of the removal rather than the Manitoba community as a whole, if possible and only if not feasi ble, would th e taxpayers end up in being required to foot the bill? I understand the costs here to remove these PCBs do wn east, for instance, where there are storage facilities where they could be isola ted, wou ld be somewhere in th e neighbourho od of 8,000 to 9,000.00. MR.

JORGENSON: There are several companies that have been active in removing and storing PCBs. The bids vary. I'm advised that Kinetic Contaminants, an Al berta-based company had offered to remove them, the quantity that he had in storage, for 3,500.00. Now whether or not he's going to accept that offer remains to be seen. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't up to this point. MR. PAWLEY: And what abou t legislativ e provisions so that we don't end up in these type of squabbles as to who's going to pick up the bill? MR.

JORGENSON: I would hope that the legislative provisions that we are contemplating will deal with that situation, so that we would have the authority to order them out and not at taxpayers' expense. We don't know the extent to which there still remains in this province quantities of PCBs. We are attempting to get a handle on that by surveys.

We have a joint program with the city of Winnipeg now to use our various inspection services as a, well, I hate to call it a sideline but as a part of their inspection service when they move from one business establishment to another to enquire about any hazardous materials that may be in storage at any .business premise, so that we can have some idea of what quantities there are and how much there are.

The city of Winnipeg requires that sort of information; at least, the City of Winnipeg Fire Department requires it so that if there is a fire in any particular building they then know in advance that up, say, on the th ird floor of this building there is X number of barrels or X quantity of 2944

Friday, 25 April, 1980 a hazardous material that could cause a problem if they caught fire, so that they can come to those fires equipped to ensure the safety of the firemen. It's a program that has been carried on by the city of Winnipeg Fire Department, but we want to expand that in conjunction and co-operation with the city of Winnipeg Fire Department but we want to expand that in co-operation with the city of Winnipeg .

It will give us a better idea of what hazardous materials may be in store all throughout the city, and we hope we can then identify further quantities of PCBs that we can then undertake to remove from their present locations and other hazardous produc ts, as well, if the y are banned or if there use is not permitted. We can't do a great deal about a product that may be hazardous but yet is not banned. But at least we will know it's there and we can be forewarned if anything has to be done in the way of firefighting or anything else in that particular building. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. While on the su bject of polychlori nated biphenyls, PCB's, I would ask the Minister if he can indicate if there will be any extra staff added in order to acco mplish this inspection he is talking about. MR. JORGENSON: Well, not necessarily. Both the city of Winnipeg inspectors and our own insp ectors will carry out that inspection service as a part of their inspection services now. I don't think, if you are in a building in any case, that it will take that much more time to do it.

Although we are, in order to get a broader picture, and th at wou ld in clude areas outside the city, we are engaging a number of summer students thi s year for the pu rpose of attem pting to get an inv entor y of hazardous materials that may be laying around that will bear watc hing. As I say, we are attempting to get a handle on that situation so we have a better idea of the nature and the magnitude of the problem that we have to deal with. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson, I would ask the Mini ster how many summer students they are anticipating hiring in this regard and for what period of time. MR.

JORGENSON: I bel ieve ther e are four students. That is just for this project. For what period of time? Sixteen weeks, I understand. MR. COWAN: Can the Minister indicate if they will be trav elling throughout the province? MR. JORGENSON: Yes. MR. COWAN: So there will be a number based here in Winn ipeg or all four of these will be trav elling areas outside Winnipeg? MR. JORGENSON: I don't know that, as a result of the inspection that would be carried on by inspectors in the city, whether it would be necessary to base them here. I think they will be all outside the city. MR.

COWAN: would ask the Minister then how many inspections this department makes, average, and I'm talking about a ballpark figure here, on a yearly basis; not how many inspections, that's the wrong way to ph rase it, ho w many different establishments are inspected by this department? MR. JORGENSON: I am not sure whether we could get a handle on that at the moment, Mr. Chairman; we'll see what we can do to provide that information. MR. COWAN: I appreciate, Mr. Chairperson, that it is a detailed question and so do realize that it will take some time to come up with even a ballpark . MR. JORGENSON: If indeed we can.

MR. COWAN: But the reason I ask, there is a very specific reason that I do ask and that is the Minister has indicated that he is going to be relying upon the department, in it's normal inspection pro cess, to identify areas where toxic chemicals are stored, and in order to fully evaluate the effectiveness of that methodology one wou ld have to kn ow what percentage of the establishments are actually being inspected and one would have to know how long it's going to take to go through all the establishments.

It may well take 10 years; it may well take 10 months, I don't know and I think that is an important factor in attempting to evaluate this particular methodology. I'm not certain that it's best and if I can suggest, and I have been known to suggest before and provide unsolicited advice so it is nothing new, but if I can there may be a number of other avenues that can be explored along with this particular course of action and that is to send out a survey form to the different MR. JORGENSON: We tried that. MR.

COWAN: Well, the Minister indicates that they tried that; perhaps he can fill us in on the details of that, then. MR. JORGENSON: The difficulty with that kind of a survey is that there could be a lot of people who have PCB's on their premises and they don't even know it. I might also add that the city of Winnipeg Fire Department already have a fairly substantial inventor y of hazardous goods in many of the establishments in the city, so it is a question of just adding to the inventory that already exists and attempting to complete it to the best of our ability.

As my honourable friend perhaps will understand, it's not one of those areas that you can be so definitive, largely by virtue of the fact that the people who sell it may have that product in storage and may not know what they have in storage. So it will take some time, I agree, but we will be att empting to get a better idea of the nature of the problem by this method. I can tell my honourable friend that we did, between the federal gov ernment and ourselv es, we di d attempt the survey method and it did not produce very much in the way of results. MR.

DE PUTY CHAIRMAN, Gary Filmon (R iver Heights): The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: The Minister has indicated one of the reasons it might not have produced very much in the way of results is that people were ignorant of the 2945

Friday, 25 April, 1980 fact they actually did have a toxic chem ical in storage, and that is indeed a problem and it will be a problem whether they send out a survey form or whether they send out an inspector, although an inspector, if they inspect the entire area, may be able to say well what's in there and if the individual who owned that particular establishment said I do n't kno w what's in there, then the inspector might ther efore seek further investigation.

But I would believe the case would be that that might happen on occasion but if we use the example of Canada Packers, where the PCB's allegedly stored up on the roof, where an inspector would probably not have gone to, and where probably the management level at which he was speaking probably would not have known they were there or may not have known they were there, we would have the same problem. In other words, even with the inspection services we are not going to see any sort of a comprehensive inventory develop very quickly, and I'm not certain whether we will ever see a complete . . .

As a matter of fact, I think I can categorically say that we would never see a comple te inventor y, because of the extensiveness of the problem. So I am concerned that the Minister has recognized the problem but still has not been able to convince me th at the methodology they are following is going to deal adequately with that problem. That's one reason why they may not find out that a toxic chemical is stored on a site and that's because of igno rance; and I do n't use tha t term in the negative sense, I use it in the literal sense. But the other reason could be . . .

In order to lay the base for the argument, let's follow this from the start. We know that PCBs, and let's use that as an example, are banned. We know that we are not encouraging their storage in the province, in any place, especially in unsupervised storage areas. We know that we are going to be seeing legislation that may in fact necessitate the removal at the expense of the owner of that chemical or other chemicals coming from the Minister's department. We have a fair indication that they're going to try to deal with that problem in some way or another.

We kn ow tha t it's very expensive to remove just a small number of barrels of PCB because of the procedures that have to be followed, the very strict procedures that have to be follo wed in transportation of it, and we wouldn't want to see those procedures weaken.

So now we know that it's a small busi ness owner that is not working on the high level of margin of profit that they are feeling the cash squeeze for whatever reasons and they have PCBs in storage, and they know that if it is found out that they have PCBs in storage that the y are going to have to spend fairly extensive money without any sort of reimbursement from anywhere to get rid of those PCBs, and that they are going to find th emselves in a bind and there is going to be a hesitancy on their part to come forward with that information, because you're putting them in a very difficult spot.

Has the Minister given any thought to how to deal with that very real problem, and I'm not trying to say that the owners are in any way being malicious about their efforts. They are just trying to stay in business and th at's an important goal to them, and we may di ffer as to how they should do so, but I do recognize the fact that they are going to fight very hard to stay in busi ness and could anticipate this sort of a process taking place.

So I would ask the Minister if he could just indicate how they are dealing with that particular problem, if the y have run across it in the past, and if they have developed ways and means of dealing with it in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, in the case of PCBs themselves, as my honourable friend is aware, tha t part of it was banned by the federal government.

And in our meeting of the Ministers of the Environment in Edmonton earlier this year, we discussed this particular subject and we feel that the federal go ver nment has some responsi bili ty in assisting in this particular area, since they are the people that banned the product. We will be having further meetings along these lines in the hope that we can come to some agreement as to how we can avoid the very probl em - and which we have recognized tha t my honourable friend outli nes: the hesitancy on the part of the small owner to confess that he has the product on his premises.

The other manner in which that particular problem can be dealt with is contained in the plans of Kinetic Contaminants - it's the company that I spoke of that applied for a licence for destruction of PCBs in Alberta - and that is the sett ing up of tempor ary storage in each of the provi nces so that the cost of hauling it in a small amount would not be proportio nately larger, but a truck that picks up the PCBs would come only when there is sufficient quantity to make a load that can be economically possible to take out. And that will in effect reduce the individual costs and spread it over the entire load.

So we are conscious of the prob lem that my honourable friend speaks of and although we've come to no firm conclusions as yet, we do intend to have further meetings to raise the matter with the federal government to see if some arrangements can be made to ensure that the problem tha t my honourable friend antici pates, and one that we anticipate, will not materialize. MR. COWAN: I would ask the Min ister, Mr.

Chairperson, if he has given any thought or his department has given any thought to initiating a super-fund concept which has been discussed in other jurisdictions, particularly south of the border, by which there are assessments against businesses using toxic chemicals, primarily in the event of an environmental accident whereby damages have to be paid, but where there is an assessment for tho se companies - it's a form of an insurance, but it's insurance not for the companie s, it's insurance for the publ ic, so that they are not forced to pay for the removal and for damage tha t is created by environmental accidents and especially in reference to spills of toxic and hazardous chemicals and waste prod ucts.

So I would ask the Min ister if his department has given any thought to that super-fund concept, and if they haven't, then I suggest that they can because it is one way of taking the financial responsibility for individual actions out of the publ ic's 2946

Friday, 25 April, 1980 area and putting it into the hands of those who are responsible for the actions in the first place. Now there are a couple of concepts and perhaps I can anticipa te or try to anticipa te some of the discussions, and one is that, well, it doesn't matter because it's going to be tacked onto the cost of the product anyway to the public, that somewhere this mone y has to come from and as long as th e company is in the busi ness of making profit, it's going to have to come not out of their expenses but out of their total financial picture so that their profits stay the same.

So that is one problem that would have to be faced up to. The other solution that the Minister indicated was that perhaps the federal government, because they banned the product in the first place, had some responsibility in assisting to rid our province of this product or rid the country of this product, would do so.

But the fact is that's our money also and the Min ister know that's that an argument they have used on us on a number of occasions, so I don't feel uncomfortable in addressing myself to it right now, that it's still taxpayers money and what we're trying to do is get th e responsi bil ity, the financia l responsibility for dealing with these problems, back in the hands of those who created the problems. So I would ask the Minister if he could comment on that super-fund concept and what work his department has done towards examining it to see if it is a viable possibility. MR.

JORGENSON: The suggestion that is now being made by my honourable friend is one that is contained within the programs for waste disp osal that are in existence in other parts of the world, Germany in particular, and I think I mentioned yesterday that my idea or concept of a waste disposal program would involv e the generators of the waste as most assuredly being respon sibile for its disposal so that burden does not fall upon the public generally; at least pay their proportiona te share of disposal. They don't create all of the waste. I think it's an objective.

Whether or not it can be applied as early as this date or until a comprehensive waste disposal program is in place, I'm not too sure; I'll have to examine my honourable friend's suggestion to determine whether or not that may have some merit. MR.COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. When the government does complete its invento ry, or even while it is in the process of adding to what is a known inventory already, is the government then going to make that information public as to where toxic chemicals are stored? MR.

JORGENSON: I would expect indeed it would be a recommendation on my part and I'm convinced that is perhaps the only way that you're going to get the kind of co-operation that we would like to have from the public is if they have full knowledge of the extent of the problem that they're faced with in the question of waste disposal. So making those figures available I think would be necessary in order to make the public aware of what they're facing and what measures may be necessary in or der to implement a waste dis posal program. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister be prepared to make it public on a specific basis?

And I would not suggest that for every five-gallon can of PCBs that there need to be a public advertisement to that effect; but that where major contaminant sources are found that they do make that publi c, and there's a reason for this, not to embarrass because I don't think any embarrassment is necessary in this regard, but to enable people li ving in the areas to understand that there may be a specific problem in regard to the area they live in.

Also the more the public knows, I'm thinking now from the workers vantage point, if the worker knows that a particular operation is using a particular toxin then they can make a better decision as to whether they want to su bject thems elves to potential risk by working at that operation.

And this is a very major problem now in that workers don't know the risk they face and they are not fully informed of all the risks th ey face; I kno w it's not the Mini ster's jurisdiction but I think that the Minister can help in that problem by making this inventory as public as is possible and also ensuring that it is known to people who may have a very vested int erest, such as living in close proximity or working in that particular area, to know what toxins are there and what toxins they're being exposed to. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I believe that public knowledge of the nature of the problem and the extent of the problem is a prerequisite to successful co-operation amongst all people that are going to be concerned. MR. COWAN: So the Minister would then have no hesitation in making known specific sources of toxic and hazardous wastes? MR. JORGENSON: Well, I certainly would have no hesitation in making known the quantities that we're faced with. I'll have to give some thought as to whether or not it would be advisable to pinpoint every particular area in the province.

But if they have some general idea of the amounts that are involved I am convinced that it would be very helpful in dealing with the problem. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Well, the more information the better and I can only encourage the Minister to give some very serious thought to also making the sources kno wn because I believe that it will enable both the public and the workers alike to better manage their own lives, and I think that's what we' re after here is better management of our own lives which increases in a higher standard of living.

In regard to a specific problem of PCBs, and that is Canada Packers in Winnip eg, I wrote to the Minister on December 18, 1979 in regard to an incident involving polychlorina ted biphenyl contamination of inedible oil products that may have origi nated at Canada Packers in Winnipeg - and I think we can pretty well determine that it did origi nate at Canada Packers in Winnip eg now - and I asked the Minister to imm edia tely implement a numb er of recom mendations; and one was to make public the results of any previous present or future testing for polychlorina ted biphenyl's contamination of products 2947

Friday, 25 April, 1980 from Canada Packers. Now, of course that I believe to be just a very common sense approach to the problem .While we were dealing with inedible oil products in this particular instance, it is a possibility that we could in the future, or we could have in the past, been dealing with edible oil products because they're both produced at the same operation. So I'm not suggest ing that is the fact but I'm suggesting that could have been, and may still, well in the future, be the fact and yet I can't recall, and perhaps I missed it, but I can 't recall any pub lic documentation as to that.

I'd ask the Minister if he follo wed up on that recommendation and if so, how, when, where and why? MR. JORGENSON: As my honourable friend is probably aware it was Agriculture Canada that took the lead in, first of all, the discover of PCBs in the non-edible tallow and all subsequent testing has been done by the Department of Health (Canada) and the Department of Agriculture. Our people were acting in an advisory capacity to them and worked in co-operation with them.

Subsequent tests, following along the li nes of the suggestion made by my honourable friend, no PCBs were discovered in any other product other than the edible tallow. Tests that have taken place sinc e tha t time have sho wed diminishing quantities of PCBs in that No. 2 tallow. For some time now it has been below the acceptable levels so it appears as though the problem has removed itself, although unless there is some later information on it, I don't think they ever did find out where it originated; that remains somewhat of a mystery. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: Well, I can't say as to where it origi nated if the department has not been able to exactly determine but I do think there were several general theories that were floating around at the time and perhaps none of them had been entirely . . . MR. JORGENSON: None of them could be traced down with any definite conclusions so the situation remains there. We still are puzzled as to where they came from. MR.

COWAN: Well, I'd ask the Minister then if testing of the sum p' areas in that particular facility had not shown traces of PCB after this initial test ing was done and that on a number of occasions the test did show PCB contamination in the sump areas which may or may not have disappeared at this point. MR. JORGENSON: I believe that the suggestion made by my honourable friend, or the assumption made by my honourable friend is correct. I believe that there was but I would hesitate to give my honourable friend any figures on it. That would have to be checked out with Environment Canada. MR.

COWAN: Well, could the Mini ster then indicate if, to his knowledge, that contamination is still being found in the sump areas at Canada Packers? MR. JORGENSON: It's below the acceptable levels. Now, I don't know how recently the tests have been made. I understand they're still being made every month. Now whether the latest tests have indicated a complete removal of the product, I will have to find out; I don't have that information right now. MR.

COWAN: But there still is, to the Minister's best knowledge at the moment, at least in recent months there still has been some PCB contamination found at Canada Packers? MR. JORGENSON: Slight traces of it, yes. MR. COWAN: I would just like to comment on that. When dealing with PCBs some traces are a matter of grave concern because of the fact that they tend to follow the food chain up and tend to accumulate at the hig hest level in the food chain, which is fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, the Minister and myself and others of the human species are affected in the end run by PCB contamination.

It may start out at a trace level but if you did enough trace contamination sources it's going to accumulate its way up the food chain.In that same letter I asked the Minister to initiate a compr ehensive survey of other possible contamination sites in Manitoba and we are now to belie ve that is in the process of being developed and they are trying different avenues and different strategies as to how to do that. I asked the Minister to ensure that the PCBs were isolated and removed from the Canada Packers' site.

I had opportunity to visit the site myself and know that they were, at the time of this incident, were taken from the roof area. That's my understanding, they were stored on the upper levels of the facility, not the roof area but upper storeys, and that they were transported to a shed outside of the facility itself, outside the packinghouse facility and that there was a cautionary label, Danger PCBs label, on the door and that they were stored in a tank or a number of 45-gallon drums inside. I'd ask the Minister if they're still being stored there or if they have been removed entirely from the site. MR.

JORGENSON: No, they were moved out on the 18th of January. I'm advised that upon further insp ection, because Canada Packers seem to be pretty concerned about it as they might well be, they discovered further quantities of it and that has also been shipp ed outj. I believe now that they have satisfied themselv es that there are no more PCBs in their plant. MR. COWAN: I'd ask the Minister to elaborate on the further sources. Did they find further 45-gallon drums? MR. JORGENSON: No, it was in the equipment, hydraulic equipment. MR.

COWAN: The Minister indicates that it was in the equipment, do we have any idea as to the quantity in regard to gallonage and, also, do we have any indication as to whether or not it has been removed from all the equipment to date, so that there is none left in the equipment? 2948

Friday, 25 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: It hasn't been removed from the equipment. The equipment has been removed. MR. COWAN: The equipment has been removed. So that there are no other sources, to the best of our knowledge, of PCB contamination at Canada Packers. MR. JORGENSON: No. MR. COWAN: In that same letter I asked the Minister to ensure that the public storage of PCBs is carried out in accordance with commonly accepted practices and to make public any inventor y of known PCB storage in use throughout the province.

Since that time the Minister has indicated that they have conduc ted somewhat of a survey, or they are in the process of conducting somewhat of survey? Have they found other areas where it is being stored outside of the Werier's incident which the Member for Selkirk, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, has brought forward? When they did find tho se, have they found that they had been stored in accordance with commonly accepted practices? MR. JORGENSON: Outside of the quantity of PCBs that are stored at J.

Werier and Company, the only other source that keeps turning up from time to time is from Manitoba Hydro and they are dis posed of on a regular basis. MR. COWAN: In that case, Mr. Chairperson, the Min ister has led me to another area that I am concerned about and that is Manitoba Hydro. It's my understanding that PCBs are stored here in the city in regard to Manitoba Hydro at the Waverley Street service centre, it has a storage compound. Can the Minister confirm that is indeed the case and perhaps indicate how many gallons or how many 45-gallon drums are being stored there? MR.

JORGENSO N: Yes, I bel ieve th at my honourable friend is correct, I just have to get the details. My answer to the previous question applies in this instance; they are stored at the Waverley Street site and removed in quantity from time to time by Kinetic Contaminants who they have contra cted with to remove them out of the province. MR. COWAN: Does the Mini ster have any indication of how many are there presently and how much PCB is actually in use throughout the province at Manitoba Hydro installations? MR. JORGENSON: No, we don't. MR. COWAN: That would appear to be a good place to begin an inventory?

Can the Mi nister commit his department to immediately beginning that particular inventory? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, that will be part of the inventory that we'll be attem pting to compile during the course of the next year or so. MR.

COWAN: Well, then, and also in regard to Manitoba Hydro, I've been informed by a constituent and I have no way of confirming this at the moment so I'll ask the Mini ster to inv estigate it without prejudice; in other words, I would not want to be inter preted as saying this is actually the case but I'm passing on to him information that has come to me which I believe is of a serious enough nature that the Department take action immediately, and that's in regard to Gillam, Manitoba, and the Radisson and Henday DC converter stations where PCBs are quite extensively used in the operations there.

It's my understanding - perhaps I can just read a portion, a pertinent portion, of the letter to the Minister: It is my understanding that this oil contains PCBs. Every so often one of these canisters ruptures spewing forth its contents over the reactors and adjacent areas of the ground below, etc. When this occurs the corporation ensures that the reactors or other electrical equipment in the vicinity that may have been showered with PCB laden oil are cleaned, and that the can is transported to Winn ipeg for disposal.

However, the corporation does not ensure, and again I am reading from a letter without prejudice, the corporation does not ensure that the gravel covering the ground at the two northern converter stations and at the single inverter sta tion, the Dorsey station, located at Rosser, Manitoba, nor thwest of Winnip eg, that may have been contamina ted by the ruptur ed cans are scooped up and di sposed of in a thorough and comprehensive manner. Instead the PCB laden oil is al lowed to sink into the ground and thus entering the environment.

The justification suggested is that where PCBs drain into gravel-covered non-agricultural-use land, no da mage can occur because the areas are not intended to be used for any purpo se other than the site of a Manitoba Hydro installation .That, to me, is a very serious allegation that was forwarded to me at the beginning of this year and I have, in the past couple of months, tried to determine as to whether or not that information is essentially or even partially correct. Because even if it was partially correct it would be a serious matter.

We cannot allow PCBs to enter the environment in that way, whether it be at a site that is going to be used in perpetuit y for a converter site, or whether it be a site that is not going to be used in that manner. The recent example of the spill in Saskatchewan only points out very eloquently the problems that are associated with PCB getting into the groun d-water systems, PCBs getting into the general environment and that we cannot allow that to happen.

So I would ask the Minister if he has been informed of this in the past and if so what actions have been taken and, if not, can he commit himself to investigating this serious allegation as soon as is possible? MR. JORGENSON: I'd certainly be interested in investigating that allegation and I wonder if my honourable friend - I don't ask him to reveal the identity of that person - but if he would send me a copy of the contents of that letter I would appreciate it. MR. CO WAN: Thank you, Mr . Chai rperson.

I certainly will and I will make certain that to the best of my abil ity ther e is no ident ification of th e indi vidual and I would assume that the Minister would not be so interested in who the individual was as to the accuracy of the individual's observations. 2949

Friday, 25 April, 1980 MR. JORGENSON: I'm not concerned about that. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. If that is indeed the case that it may well explain why we are star ting to find tr aces of toxic chemic als, especially environmentally long-standing chemicals, such as PCBs, that just don't disi ntegrate very easily or very rapidly into other elements in compounds but stay in that form and then do work their way up the food chain and present a problem in the end; why we are finding those sorts of chemicals now in our testing of ocean waters that should be relatively unpol luted.

In this case, I' ve read ind ications of where they have fou nd tr ace sample s of such pollutants in the Arctic Ocean; in areas where one would not expect it to be and that may be because of operations such as this who are not dealing as adequately as they should for whatever reason, and I don't imply any malice in this regard, for whatever reason they are not dealing sufficiently with these problems.The fact is and it was I think pointed out, or I attempted to point it out in the Chambers this morning, tha t the public awareness of th ese problems is becoming much greater and as the public awareness becomes greater, and the Minister is encouraging that process, also the awareness of the corporations and the users of these products become greater.

They will, when they have the full information available to them and they do feel that publi c pressure and the government pressure exerted upon them, they will deal with them in a more comprehens ive manner. We won't see these sort of abuses if this is, indeed, an abuse that is occurring, happening in the future. I would ask the Minister to keep me informed of that and if there is a spill there to very comprehen sively deal with cleaning that particular site up. I believe the Member for St. Vital has some questions, so before proceed ing on to another specific area, I would ask if he wants to. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister about landfill sites in the province as it relates to the problem of the production of methane gas. I understand that there has been a problem of late within the city of Winnipeg. It has over 30 old landfill sites that it has identified, some of which have been quite considerable produc ers of methane gas. I understand that the city of Winnipeg has paid out over 4 million in purchasing buildings from private owners that were thr eatened by methane gas. They've also had problems with schools that were built in proximity of certain sites.

It would appear from what I've found out that it's been entirely the city of Winnipeg that has been dealing with the matter. They've shown considerable concern and responsibil ity in handling the matter and qu ite probably they do have the legal responsibility in the matter. I further learn that in a number of other jurisdictions that more senior governments have become involved in the matter and have shown int erest and input, including financial input, into relieving some of these problems.

It would appear in Manitoba that there has been very little input, if any, by senior government into Winnip eg's methane problems. I would like to ask the Minister what the involvement of his department has been in this area and what sort of checks or inspections is the province involved in or is it being left entirely to the city of Winnipeg and if so, is there any financial help given to the city. MR. JORGENSON: As far as the city of Winnipeg is concerned, they exercise their own authority in dealing with these matters. We keep abreast of them and we act in an advisory capacity to them.

But we have been carrying out a fairly, perhaps it's a slow­ moving and perhaps it's not a spectacular program, but we have been attem pting to convince or to work with the municipal ities of this province, to advise them of the pr obl ems th at could result from improper use of landfill sites.

We are attempting to provide as much help and advice as we can to the municipalities to ensure that the only product that goes into landfill sites is inert material and ulti mately, when a compr ehensive waste dis posal program is in place such as I outlined yesterday and earlier this morning, that will not be a problem any longer.

There will be a classification of waste and it will all be dealt with in such a way as to not produce the harmful affects such as methane gas and as such hazardous waste that is allo wed to leech into the soil, and consequently into the underground aquifers that produce problems in water supplies in so many of the rural areas of this province.

These are all problems that are now coming to be realized by the public and by the muni cipal corporations and are becoming of great concern to them, and we provide as much help as we possibly can to encourage municipalities in the proper use of landfill sites, products that should not go into them, and products that can be more properly dis posed of. We are particularly concerned about hazardous waste material being dumped into landfill sites.

So I don't see any quick end to the problem but I think in the long run, if we develop - and I am convinced that it will not be done ove rnight because there has to be public acceptance and a recog nition of the reasons why you have to do certain things. Once that acceptance is there on the part of the public, then it becomes possible to rationally explain to people the reasons why certain things are done in a certain way and why some changes have to be made.

Sometimes it's just a question of getting rid of a habit that has grown up over the years and people have not recognized the problems that they have created as a result of, say, throwing everything including the kitchen sink into a local landfill site. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wasn't here when the Minister spoke of a comprehensive plan for waste dis posal and it obviously makes sense to develop a compr ehensive plan.

The subject matter that I mention I realize is only a very small part of the problem but it is one th at pr esents, perhaps, unforeseen difficulties. It wouldn't be inaccurate to call it an explosive situation. I understand that in attem pting to deal with one of the problems that it has made the problem of methane much worse, that methane is a gas that's produced by decomposing organic material. I further understand that in sealing off and finish ing a landfill site, that in order to prevent rainwater and melting snow from getting into the landfill site and leeching out chemicals and other 2950

Friday, 25 April, 1980 materials into ground water, that it's a practice to cap a landfill site with a fair thick ness of clay so that the water will run off rather than run through it.

This doesn't prevent organic materials from continuing to decompose and produce methane, and rather than simply migrate up through a porous soil, the gas is trap ped by this very cover that's put on for protection and tends to build up a pressure which then causes the gas, because it cannot escape vertically, to escape horizontally, which it will do so along the path of least resistance along a hydro or telephone trench or some other geologic fault, and that the gas can travel quite a considerable distance from the site.

A couple of questions that arise from the Minister's remarks when he says that the department is trying to give help and advice, I believe were the terms he used, to municipaliti es. Can he expand on the meaning of the word help? Is this financial assistance as far as the city is concerned and other municipalities in coping with the problem? Does the department have monitoring and test ing facilities and do the y carry out independently any test ing throughout the province?

I realize I have spoken mostly of Winnip eg because that's where the problem has developed or at least received attention over the last couple of years, but the Minister has a provincial responsibility and not just a municipal respo nsibil ity, and it would seem tha t simila r problems are likely to arise or could well arise in other cities in the province and other municipalities as well.

So can he fir st of all tell us what respon sibili ty he feels for landfill site s and particularly methane gas throughout the province, and does the department have gas tes ting equipment and is there any financial assitance being given to other municipalities in the province? MR. JORGENSON: No financial assistance. Our assistance up to this point has consisted of lab services, techn ical services, eng ineering and inspec tion services. The univ ersity has been conducting a series of experiments on methane gas and that expertise is available to municipalities.

It's used to transfer organic material into methane gas and then find a safe dis posal method of the remaining material. I think that perhaps what is necessary at this point is to, instead of considering garbage as garbage, we should start considering it as a resource to be used. That type of material contains a considerable amount of energy value which can be used, and I don't suggest that it can be transformed into a source of energy without some cost. As a matter of fact, it could well be that the cost will be greater than the original energy source, such as coal or some thing of that nature.

But it does provide a means of dis posal that does not carry with it the after-effects of present systems of disposal. So as I said earlier, I hope my honourable friends don't expect that ove rnight suddenly there is going to be an end to this matter, or indeed that it can be done by passage of laws and regulations.

I am convi nced in my own mind , as a result of experiences that I have - not personal experiences that I'v e had but experiences that have been held in other countries - that until you have the total co­ operation of the public at large, the generators of waste and the municipal corporations, all levels of gov ern ment , tha t the pr obl em is go ing to be remaining with us for some time to come. But it does seem to me, as was mentioned yesterday and an observation with which I concur, today there seems to be a growing awareness of the problem and a great desire to do something about it.

There is only one difficulty that I foresee in that growing awareness and that is that everybody wants to transfer the - want to get rid of the problem - but their method of getting rid of it is to transfer it over to somebody else's bailiwick or to somebody else's doorstep, and sometimes that's a very difficult thing to do.

We di scovered that experience in Ontario and particularly the Mi ssissauga affair and the effort on the part of the provincial government in Mis sissauga to conduct an experiment to destroy PCBs, that they were simply going to run a test burn in a cement kiln which happened to be located near the town of Mississauga. They simply wanted to determine whether or not it would be possible to destroy them comp letely in this kiln. The Mississauga municipality countered with a by-law preventing them from doing that, which then moved the provincial government into challenging it in the courts, so the matter rests there.

Sometimes there are very honest efforts to get rid of a problem but public opinion has been aroused to such a pitch that even your best efforts are met with opposition, and that's one of the dangers that I see if the matter is dealt with on an emotional rather than a very pragmatic and rational basis. Fine, I agree that there is a great deal of merit to making sure that the public are aware of the problem, but there is also a great danger that you are going to thwart your own efforts if you become too enthusiastic about outlining that problem, if there is exaggera tion.

Ultima tely you get the publi c reacting in a way that you don't want them to react, and once you have an aroused public it's very difficult to bring any sense of rationalism to a given problem. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister is right in that there are no overn ight or magic solutions to the problems. He's touched on two aspects of the problem - the future and what has happened in the past. He's correct in talking about the use of garbage as a fuel and I think it's well recognized that natural gas is largely com posed of methane. It's a fuel very high in natural gas. MR.

JORGENSON: What does my honourable friend mean by natural gas? MR. WALDING: I am speaking of natural gas from oil fields, Mr. Chairman. I'm informed tha t the composition varies but it's usually in the range of some 50 to 90 percent methane and a little propane and a couple of other gases there. But its energy content is higher and it becomes explosive in very low concentrations in air, some thing like 5 to 15 percent of methane in air is actually explosive; concentrations above that, it simply burns.

The possibility of using organic materials to produce methane as a fuel is un der invest igation and experimentation, as he rightly says. In fact, I'm told that there is a farmer in England who, tor several years, has been driving his car with power from 2951

Friday, 25 April, 1980 methane pr oduc ed from decomp osed chick en manure; that in various parts of the world there are schemes available. I'm trying to think what they're called, fermentation pits, I believe is the term; that animal wastes are put into these pits and they're allo wed to ferment over a time and they produce quite large extents of methane. However, those are problems for the future and the matter of public information and assistance to municipa lities are matters again for the future.

The problems that I raised with the Minister have to do with problems of the past where, for decades, munici palities have been simply digging pits and dumping in garbage, filling them over when they're finished, forgetting about them and finding that the problems of methane gas and the migration of this gas surfaces many years later. That is the problem I'm outlining to the Min ister is to what his involvement is in identifying these landfill sites, and what steps are being taken to correct any production of methane or the migration of methane from those sites.

I realize that the Minister is not respon sible for those landfill sites in the past but I'm told that methane can be continued to be produced from those sites for 50 years, 100 years, even longer than a century although the production of the gas tends to taper off after it reaches a maximum after some 10, 15 years afterwards. My own interest n the problem came about through education when I learned that there was a school in the city that was built directly on top of an old landfill site and that there was considerable amounts of methane being produced.

I learned afterwards that there are other schools within the city of Winnip eg that are built quite close to methane­ producing sites - let me correct that and say, old landfill sites - whether they are in fact methane producers is a subject of a 5-year investigation by the city. If those things can happen in the city of Winnipeg, they can happen in other municipalities as well, who might not be so aware of the problem or might not have the equipment or monitoring and testing instruments to do their own tests. It would seem, Mr.

Chairman, that the situation is quite critical in Winnip eg and one reason why it's taking five years to conduc t this monitoring is a financial reason, that the city does not want to put out a million dolla rs, I believe is the approxima te amount, in one year to test all of these sites in one year. So they have attempted to estimate which are the most critical areas and they are testing so many this year; I believe it's six sites and a further 10 next year and so many each year.

What consideration has the Mini ster gi ven to providing the city of Winnipeg with additional funds so that it can com press that 5-year testing down into one or perhaps two years to enable at least the city of Winnipeg to assure the citizens of Winnipeg that either there is no hazard or the hazard is known and recogn ized and that the city is taking steps to protect citizens against the hazards of explosiv e methane gas? MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): The Honourable Minister. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, I hesitate to tell my honourable friend what consideration is being given to this because it would be a matter that would have to be dis cussed with the city of Winnipeg and the provincial government, and I presume through the Department of Urba n Affairs. I'm not sure whether that has been brought to the attention of the Department of Urban Affairs as yet, I will have to check on that, or whether any consideration has been given to assisting them in this project. Certainly my department has not been involved in any discussions with them with respect to funding. MR.

WALDING: Further to the problems in other municipalities outside of Winnipeg, is the Minister's department or his inspection staff, or whome ver in the de partment, bringin g to the attention of municipalities the sorts of problems that Winnipeg has been involved with? Are municipalities being encouraged to investigate their old landfill sites for this problem? Are they being made aware of the problems that can occur with buildin gs, schools, hom es, within their own municipalities?

Are they being encouraged either to do their own testing or to get consulting firms in that can do this form of testing and monitoring for them? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chair man, we do the monitoring for them. As I said, we have, over a period of years, been working with the municipalities in the devel opme nt of landfill sites, pr ov iding engineering services for them, technical advice, etc. I think my honourable friend would be aware that the magnitude of the problem in a rural municipality is pretty miniscule compared to the problem that is being faced by the city of Winnip eg.

So the difficulties that he perceives in this question in the city of Winnipeg do not arise in that extent in the rural areas. But it's a problem nonetheless. We feel that we've been quite successful in removing the worst hazards of what has been the practice in the past of the use of landfill sites. As I said earlier, in my view the problem will not be totally elimi nated until a comp rehens ive waste dis posal program is in place and that will be a costly program and it will involve not just various levels of government but it will involve everyone who is a generator of waste, and that is everybody. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister says that he does the monitoring or his department does the monitoring, is he indi cating th at his department puts in place monitors or probes into the soil around landfill sites and physically records the levels of methane being produc ed or escaping from the site? MR. JORGENSON: Our program does not consist of just simply the monitoring of methane. What we are attempting to do is to remove that problem. We periodically inspect their landfill sites and advise them of problems that they may be encountering and how to avoid th ose problems.

Muni cipalities are advised not to project uses of abandoned landfill sites, for example, landfill sites that have been filled, until we've cleared them, until we have declared by testing that they are safe, for example, for other uses. 2952

Friday, 25 April, 1980 It is not so much a prog ram of sett ing out regulations and then having people live by those regulations; it's a question of working with these people who have as much concern over the problem as we have and assisting them in ensuring that their methods of dispo sal of wastes are methods that will not lead to problems in the future. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 12 :30 having arrived, I am leaving the Chair for Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This commit tee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 61 of the Main Estima tes, Department of Health, Resolution No. 77, Clause 3, item (

h) Pharmaceutical Services,

(1) Salaries- pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHE RNIACK: Mr. Chairman, it's somewhat unusual for us to be dealing with estimates in the absence of the Minister. If you feel it advisable or necessary to proceed in his absence, I guess we could all make speeches but maybe we should . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: We can wait if you like. I thought there was some disposition to get started and so MR. CH ERNIACK: Disposition by whom, Mr . Chairman? I would like very much to get going on this but not in the absence of the Minister, who has to produce his estimates.

I am sure there is a reason for his absence and I would expect he'll turn up. MR. CHAIRMAN: understand. He'll be here any minute, I MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, it's okay; there must be a reason, no question. MR. CH AIRMAN: The comm ittee will come to order. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr . Chairman, I was jus t standing sorting out my papers. Nevertheless, I do have a question I would like to ask the Minister. Has he already tabled a report or a

summary of a report which he had received from the Manitoba Society of Professional Pharmacists on their self-invest igation of standards? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH ERNIACK: Mr . Chairman, if we get speeches like that from the Minister, we'll be making progress. Nevertheless, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister on April 14, and it's quoted on page 2353 of Hansard to the affect that, dealing with - let me first precede it by saying - dealing with a report which had been prepared and made public on professi onal standards of pharmacists in Manitoba where he indicated and I quote: I have in fact heard from the professional association itself on the subject and in addition to that we asked the Drug Standards and Therapeutic s Committee, the statu torily empowered commit tee appointed by government in that field, to look at the survey and the methodology of that survey.

The Manitoba Society of Professional Pharmacists has investigated the mselves and have res ponde d with a very lengthy report which I certainly cannot capsulize at this junc tur e, Mr. Speaker, although, and this is the relevant part of the quote, although I would be prepared to tempt to capsulize it and bring that form of answer into the House within the next day or two. That was April 14th.

The Hansard reads: I would be prepared to tempt to capsulize it, and I don't know whether he really wanted to tempt us by suggesting that he would or to attempt to do it, but in any event, he concluded by saying, I can deal with it during my estimates which I believe are due to be called fairly shortly. Would the Minister then please deal with that report? MR. SHERMAN: Certainly, Mr. Chairman. As I indicated on the date mentioned by the Honourable Member for St. Johns I would do.

The Manitoba Society of Professional Pharmacists has assessed and evaluated that particular media report of the results of that particular research project and, as I think I indicated to the House at the time, our pr ovincial Drug Standards and Therapeutic s Comm ittee have similarly, at the request of my office, assessed and evaluated th at report and th e conclusions carried in the particular media report which generated the honourable member's concern and int erest and the anxiety, concern, and interest of a great many of us. The results of th ose two inves tigations, Mr.

Chairman, would ind icate tha t the conclusions arrived at by the newspaper in question in its story in question, were facile and highly provocative, that they do not represent or reflect the true and valid findings and conclusions of that particular survey, nor did the survey project, in its own right, reflect or portray accurately and entirely validly the situation that it is purported to port ray in the newspaper stories. The news paper articles ind icated that Winnipeg pharmacists fared poorly in a research project conduc ted by the Canadian Conference on Continuing Education in Pharmacy.

The Canadian Conference on Continuing Education in Phar macy is a volunt ary assoc iation. It's comprised of nine provincial regulatory organizations as members and the supporting membership of the Association of Faculties of Pharmacy of Canada and the Canadian Society of Hospital Pharmacists. It acts as a national accrediting agency for Continuing Pharmacy education programs. One of its primary goals, sir, is to identify pharmacists con tinuing education needs and then plan appropriate resource progr amming.

In 1977 tha t particular conference, CCCEP, app roached the No n-medical Use of Drug s Directorate of Health and Welfare Canada with a number of topics for action research consideration. The relationship of alcohol and drugs was identified as an area of interest to both parties. The Conference provided the input on pharmaceutical and continuing education needs while Dr. G. Barnes and Dr. N. Chappell, assig ned National Health Research scholars, provided assistance in the area of 2953

Friday, 25 April, 1980 sociol ogical demog raphic and att itudinal requirements.

The results were made available to the Canadian Conference on Continuing Education in Pharmacy and on the basis of them, newspaper reports, media reports, were carried that indicated that Manitoba pharmacists fared extremely poorly, were at the bottom of the list, or close to the bottom of the list in terms of education and maintenance of continuing educ ation is concerne d and in terms of their knowledge of the interaction of drugs and alcohol and their capability to impart that knowledge and that information to their own customers and clients. Well, Mr.

Chairman, the study's aims were to evaluate pharmacists' knowledge in a very narrow field, the field of alcohol and drugs, that is medical drugs, drugs of medication, to measure professional attitudinal scales and then to determine the types and levels of continuing education requi red to alleviate any perceived weakness.

A study of this type, Sir - and I'm quoting from a response to me and a report to me from our Drug Standards and Therapeutics Commit tee - A study of this type was ther efore not designed to ensure tha t everyone receive some form of passing grade or some other standard normative measurement, but rather the knowledge portion of the study was structured to identify str engths and weaknesses in chemis try, pharmacology and pharma cy practice-related areas.

This information was then to be combined with other information and other results to help in designing new approaches in the field of continuing education progra mming. That is to say, the study's design was extremely limited; it was purely diagnostic; and it was action orientated. Following the data collection phase, Ors. Barnes and Chappell received a grant from the Manitoba Medical Services Foundation to undertake an analysis of their raw data.

Continuing education needs of practising pharmacists is the analysis of the questionnaire data and it was submitted by the authors to the Manitoba Medical Services Foundation. The report was given to the press by Dr. Barnes, I am advised, without any explanatory comment as to the study's objectives, findings and limitations. For example, the measures of profe ssionalism used were developed for this study and do not have a wide acceptance, nor have the y been subj ected to rigour ous validation. Again and thr oughout I'm qu oting the Drug Standa rds and Therape utic s Comm ittee.

The original intent of a study to assess pharmacists' need for continuing education programs seems to have been lost by the newspaper reports, as have the results of the study, which were limited to a very specific content area and cannot be generalized to other areas of pharmacy practice. In 1977 when this study was first considered, the Manitob a Pha rmaceutical Association had just int roduced mandatory continuing education requirements for annual relicensure. At that time only two con tinuing education uni ts were requir ed annually.

Now that requirement is 15 continuing education units per year, with most pharmacists participating in far more than the minimum required. The Manitoba Ph armaceutical Assoc iation, in conjunction with the Natio nal Canadian Pharmaceutical Association and the Conference referred to, is pursuing national standards of phar macy pr actice and methods of eval uating compe tency. In

summary - and the executive secretary of the committee makes this statement to me - I believe the pharmacy profession in Manitoba is continuing to work to maintain appropriate professional service to the communi ty. My office will continue to work with the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association to assure the protection of the public's health. The report from the Manitoba Society of Profes sional Pharmacists Incorporated, Mr. Chairman, is similar in vei n, and points out tha t the surv ey util ized pharmacy students and focussed on the continuing education needs of practising pharmacists in the area of alcohol and drug interactions, but that the newspaper

article did not emphasize the narrow confine s of the study and imp li ed that local pharma cis ts sho wed an overall lack of profe ssionalism, knowledge and respo nsibili ty. In fact, the average mark on this questionnaire that was circulated to pharmacists in, I believe, six cities, the average mark in response to this questionnaire, was 46 percent, Mr. Chairman.

The fact of the matter is that it was narrow and lim ited in scope; it was designed to focus on the kind of current knowledge and practice in terms of imparting that knowledge on the part of pharmacists in the drug and alcohol interaction field; and that it was, as I understand it in any event, administered and assessed differently in the different regions, the different cities, in which it was applied. So it's very difficult to compare the results in one city with the results in another because of the application of the questionnaire itself and the

interpretation of the questions and the answers by those utilizing the questionnaire, or those directing the questionnaire to pharmacists. In any even, the average mark was 46 percent. Manitoba's marks generally, in terms of its pharmacy students in national exams, have been exemplary. Students of the School of Pharmacy at the University of Manitoba regularly stand first and second in national exams, and I think that the graduates of our School of Pharmacy need defer to no one in Canada in the area of pharmaceutical knowledge.

But this was a study, Sir, that was academically structured and applied; that certainly has some merit in identifying for us the needs as we pursue with the pharmacists the whole field of continuing medical education, identifying for us an area in which great emphasis has to be placed and must continue but, certainly, to leap to the kinds of conclusions that were implied in the newspaper articles that appeared at the time, particularly in one newspaper, was a dis tortion of the situation and I think a dis service to our School of Pharmacy and our profession of pharmacy. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (1)- pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, would the Minister please indicate who are the members of that commit tee which did the study from which he was quoting so extensively? While he's looking it up, Mr. Chairman, not only who they are but what is their expertise? 2954

Friday, 25 April, 1980 MR. SHERMAN: If the honourable member will give me one minute, I think I can give him the names of the mem bers of the Drug Stand ards and Ther apeutic s Committee, Mr . Chairman. The chairman is Dr. Ian In nes , who is head of the Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutics at the University of Manitoba, and members include Mr. R. Bigelow, B.Sc. Pharmacy and Mr. R. Cairns, B.Sc. Pharmacy. Mr. Bigelow is a community pharmacist in Winnipeg; Mr. Cairns is a community pharmacist in Gr andv iew; Mr. Harv ey Cantin, a communit y pharmacis t in Winnip eg; Mr . H.

Chunick, a community pharmacist in Thompson; Dr. M. Cole, a Winnip eg pediatrician; Dr. Paul Mitenko, clin ical pharmacologist at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg; Mr. W. Reimer, a community pharmacist in Steinbach; Dr. Ken Simpson, a general practitioner in Teulon; Professor John Steel, PhD, pharmaceutical chemis try in the Faculty of Ph armacy at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg; Mr. 0. Wagner, a commun ity pharmacist in Portage la Prairie; and the pharmaceutical consultant and secretary to the Drug Standards and Therapeutics Comm ittee is Mr. Kenneth D. Brown of Winnipeg.

That is the Manitoba Drug Standards and Therapeutics Committee, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr . Chairman, just the last name, Brown, what is his expertise. MR. SHERMAN: He is a pharmacist, Mr. Chairman, and he is the ph armaceutical consultant and secretary to the comm ittee. He is in fact, Mr. Chairman, the di rector of our Pharmacare Program. The former archi tect and di rector was, as the honourable member knows, Mr. Rene Chartier. Since he left to take on new assignments in Ottawa, Mr. Ken Brown has been directing that program. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister's report or the report which he dealt with is a pretty devastating attack on the respo nsibil ity or lack of responsibility of the newspapers whose reports were, I think, very damaging and to the extent, as ind icated by the Mini ster, are di storted, would indicate a lack of responsibility on the part of the newspapers which could have a serious lasting impact on the appearance to the publi c of the pharmaceutical profe ssion.

I' ve never myself had occasion to doubt the general competence and I believe that the School of Pharmacy in Manitoba is a good one, only because the people I've known and the pharmacists I've known, almo st all of them seem to show not only competence in advising me as a lay person but also have always impressed me with sincerity and a desire to serve