LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 27 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Spe aker. MR. SPEAKER, Ho n. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Re ports by Standing and Special Comm ittees Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. ANST ETT introd uced, by leave, Bill No. 48,

An Act to amend The Municipal Assess ment Act and Various Other Acts of the Legislature. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the galle ry. We have the High Commis sioner from Zimbabwe, Mr. Chigwedere, accompanied by Mr. Nheman, the 1st Secretary . On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this aftern oon. Also in the gallery there are 23 students of Grade 5 standing from the Cranberry Portage Elementary School under the direction of Miss Fidierchuk. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Tourism.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afterno on. ORAL QUESTIONS Labour Legislation - amendments to re plant closures MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question Is to the Premier. I wonde r if he could indicate to me if the proposed amendments to labour legislation that are expected to be brought forth this Session on plant closure have been reviewed by the Labour Management Review Com mittee and the Eco nomic Advisory Commi ttee to the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tec hnology. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour, of course, will deal with that questio n. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I know that I have had a meeting with the Management Labour Review Commit tee. I expect to be having a meeting with that group some time before the legislation is tabled in the House. MR. G. FILMON: Have those amendments as well been, Mr. Speaker , reviewed by the Econ omi c Advisory Comm ittee to the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Te chnology? HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm not fa milia r with what arrangements, if any, have been provided for that review, Mr. Speaker. MR. G. FIL MON: Mr. Speaker, will the proposed amendments be brought forth only if they carry the consensus support of the Labour Management Review Commit tee? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, this government has an obligation to bring forth legislation which it believes is in the interest of all Manitobans and will do so. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Labour is not committing to bringing forth changes to labour legislation with the support of the Lab our Mana gement Review Com mittee, the consensus support of all people . A MEMBER: He never said that. MR. G. FILMON: He did so. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Question? A MEMBER: How would you know? MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact as well that this government had to invest over $1 million in Vicon In order to preserve some 100 jobs in Manitoba; and in view of the fact that a major garment industry manufacturer, Tan Jay, is proposing to move its head office out of Manitoba, both of these situations as a result of the payroll tax and the anti-invest ment labour legislation that's been brought forth by this government, will the Premier commit to removing the discriminatory anti-business labour legislation and the payroll tax so that we don't need to have these jobs continuing to be destroyed in Manitoba in the future?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think it might be worthwhile fo r the Leader of the Opposition to acquaint himself with some pertinent Information. No. 1, insofar as labour legislation In this province is concerned that we've enjoyed over the last two or three years, virtually the lowest rate of time lost due to strikes or lockouts of any province in Canada with the possible exception of Prince Edward Island. Mr.

Speaker, also the Leader of the Opposition ought to be aware, if he is not already aware, that investment projections insofar as this year and also confirmed by last year, 19 84, virtually the best, if not the best in Canada, Mr. Speaker. 2298

Monday, XI May, 1985 I think the Leader of the Opposition would be much better in sharing with other Manitobans at obvious involvement and participation building investment, building jobs and also ensuring that there be harmonious labour relations rather than trying to pour cold water on the effo rts of Manitobans. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Conference Board projections for this year for Canada state that Manitoba will have a growth rate of 1.6 percent, tied for the lowest in the country; and in view of the fact as well that the Conf erence Board is suggesting we'll have one of the lowest job creation rates of any province in the country; and in view of the fact that investors and busi nesses who are headq uartered here, such as Tan Jay, not only are expanding in Ontario, they've gone from 35 to 100 in Thunder Bay, they're moving their head office, will the government not remove the payroll tax and the anti­ business labour legislation to get rid of these negatives?

MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase, order please. Order please. May I remind members that Oral Que stion period is a time for seeking information and not for giving it. Neither are questions supposed to be argume ntative. The Honourable Member for Arthur. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that Tan Jay Limited is proposing to move Its head office from Manitoba, and in view of the fact that . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Question? MR. G.

FILMON: . . . fast year they expanded their manufacturing in Thun der Bay from 35 to 10 0 emp loyees, what is the government doing to try and protect investment and to try and ensure that Manitoba businesses can survive and prosper here and grow here? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, first, I would refer the Leader of the Opposition, in view of his lengthy

preamble just a few moments ago, to the documentation in Economic Outlook for Manitoba, Investors' Dealers Association of Canada, which reflects a much more objective balanced view of the rapid growth by way of investment, by way of employment, by way of low unemployment, by the way of retail sales, by way of housing starts in the Province of Manitoba. There's no doom and gloom in this re port. Mr.

Speaker, is the Leader of the Opposition informing this House and through this House the people of the Province of Manitoba that the labour legislation in the Province of Ontario is some way or other more anti­ busine ss, more restrictive, quite different from the labour legislation in this province? If indeed the Leader of the Opposition is doing that, Mr. Speaker, then he is ignorant of the labour provisions that exist in the Province of Ontario. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the President of Tan Jay in a letter to this administration has said that its only concern as a business is to operate in an environment which is condu cive to risk-taking; and that during the Schreyer years we experienced our greatest growth, in relationship with that government, was amicable and prod uctive, when is this admin istration going to remove the payroll tax and remove the anti-business labour legislation and get on with growth and job creat ion as it should be In this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I abhor the fact that the Leader of the Opposition of this Chamber wishes to join and harshly become involved in a labour dispute in this province and take sides against women, against new immigrants, against the weakest and the most powerless in this province, that the Leader of the Opposition would join in this dispute in a way to provide his office in order to give support and comfort to one side of that dispute. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I want to put on the record that I did not mention anything to do with the labour dispute or anything to do with information concerning any potential work stoppage. I am talking about the climate for investment and job creation in this province. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. That was not a poin t of or der. Does the honourable member have a question? The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that a company that employs 850 people In Winni peg that says that Its potential for growth is the greatest that it ever could be in this industry in Canada is not willing to invest in Manitoba, when will the government change its hostile attitude towards business so that we can have our Manitoba businesses grow? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition doesn't know that when he makes reference to letters written by Tan Jay during this labour dispute, when he makes reference in respect to full-page ads in the newspapers over the weekend, If the Leader of the Opposition doesn't know that he unwittingly is taking sides on behalf of Tan Jay in a labour dispute involving women and Immigrants in this province, then the Leader of the Opposition is much more naive than I would have thought. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl Cream quotas MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that there are many farmers who are depending on their daily incomes from the shipping of cream, In view of the fact that many of them are out of quota, 2299

Monday, 27 May, 1985 is the Minister of Agriculture recommending to them that they continue to dump the cream on the ground from now until the end of July? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Speaker . The honourable member should be aware that the Milk Producers' Marketing Board is meeting, I believe, at this time, if they have not already met, to deal with the question of the global quota that is available to cream producers in terms of the block quota that they've implemented and they are reviewing their regulations as to how it is impacting on producers.

The honourable memb er should be aware that we did raise the question of inter-industry discussions and consultations between the processors and the producers of the cream in this province. There was a comm ittee that had been in place for many years, had not been operative in fact for four or five year s, until we had major discussions going back a year or so ago. This commi ttee has been in place, is working; in fact , there are representatives of the processors, the cream producers. There are representatives of the creameries on this committee.

They're working through a very difficult problem; and in fact the board itself as I unde rstand it, is looking at modifying their restr ictions they have put in, in not allowing inter-ind ustry transfers to allocate the full quota that was within the block. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , what does the Minister of Agriculture recommend to these cream producers who are now dumping their cream on the ground, or in fact, feeding it to their livestock? What is his recommendation to them? What should they do with the cream that is building up in their fridges and in their cream storage facilities?

What is his recommendation, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. UR USKI: Mr. Speaker , the problem of production in the milk industry - and overproduction in light of the industry is not new in the industry - - (In terjection) - The Honourable Member for Pembina says you shouldn't change the rules. Any rules that are there within the industry have not had any Impact on the situation that ther e is now. Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that the ind ustry today is on a national cutback in the neighbourhood of between 2 and 5 percent and the month of April, this past month, saw the highest increase in production of cream in the recorded history in terms of this province. So, Mr.

Speaker, the dif ficulty of adequa te quota is one that is ther e in the industry. lt is less severe for the creameries themselves because they have the option of taking In cream in any amount and having it store d, at no cost to th em, through the Canadian Dairy Comm ission and then recouping the supplies as they need it with no cost to them.

So the creameries would like to have, and I agree, any amount of cream that they can get because they really have no risk to take in terms of the supply of cream because they can put it into storage, no cost to them, and retrieve it for their marketpla ce anywhere down the line.

The difficulty rests with the producers who have, in fact, reached their quota, and that is not new in terms of the industry, it's a matter of having the board having enough foresight and managing that quota on a year-long basis and putting in the mechanisms there to be able to manage the production, in light with the global quoata that they have. But it is not one that will be resolved overnight, Mr. Speaker, it will take a lot of consultation and work amongst the producers themselves as to how to work this one out. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact ther e was a regula tion change in the last few months, under his government, that disallows the transfer of quota between cream shippers so that they can accommodate one another with the shipping of their cream, and not be forced to put cream on the ground, will the Minister of Agriculture force the Manitoba Marketing Council and the Milk Producers Marketing Board to reintroduce a pol icy tha t was wor kin g well under a previous admin istration? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that just goes to show you how little the honourable member understands the industry.

He really doesn't know the situation. Mr. Speaker, I'm really surprised that the honourable member wouldn't know the ind ustry better than that. Mr. Speaker, the honourable memb er knows that there is no connection whatsoever between the situation in the milk ind ustry and the situation in the cream ind ustry at all. I'm kind of surprised that he's trying to link the two situations together. Mr. Speaker, to explain to the honourable memb er, the Milk Marketing Board has a global quota for the entire province as issued by the Canadian Dairy Commission.

Within that global quota they do allocate two separate quotas: one for the milk production and one for the cream production. Within the cream block, Mr. Speaker, the producers within Manitoba produce. Over the years, the Milk Marketing Board has in fact allowed, while individual producers have had quotas, virtually allowed a free flow of the production of cream in that quota. lt has nothing to do with the issue that the honourable member alleges in terms of the regulations. The regulations, Sir, in place today are the same regulations that were in place in 1978. Chisholm, AI - resignation MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Acting Minister of Tourism, the Minister who Is also res ponsible for the Horse Racing Commission and, !n light of the . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. GRAHAM: If I may, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to preface my question by stating that on Saturday I had the privilege, as the Memb er for Virden, to welcome to Virden the start of the Manitoba Great Western Harness Circuit for the coming summer , and I want to assure all memb ers that it looks like it's going to be 2300

Monday, 27 May, 1985 an excellent summer. But I would like to ask the Acting Min ister if a Mr. AI Chisholm, who had been hired as a judge for the Manitoba Great Wes tern Harness Circuit, resigned one day before racing commenced. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I am somewhat confused. I wasn't aware that Mr. Chisvin was hired as a judge. He Is chairman of the board. MR. H. GRAHAM: Pardon me. Mr. AI Chisholm, C-h­ i-s-h-o-1-m. HON. S. USKIW: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, obviously, I am not aware of the circumstances that the member alludes to.

I can simply take the matter as notice. MR. H. GRAHAM: Can the Minister ind icate to the house whether it was the internal plng-pong politics of the Racing Comm ission that had anything to do with his resignation? HON. S. USKIW: We ll, Mr. Speaker, as I ind icated a moment ago, I really have no kno wledge of the issue the member alludes to, and I will take the matter under advlsement. Shaw, William - full-time judge MR. H. GRAHAM: Can the Minister also indicate whether a Mr.

William Shaw, who was an associate judge and is an emplo yee of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, has been promoted to the status of full-time judge by the Chairman of the Horse Racing Commission who Is also the Chairman of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission? HON. S. USKIW: Wel l, I will take that as notice as well, Mr. Speaker. Manfor - Saskatchewan wood economically viable MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURL AY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question Is to the Premier.

In view of the fact that operations are being severely cut back at Manfor and, in addition, to various northern logging camps the Northern Truckers Association are also experiencing a disastrous year; and in view of the fact that wood is still coming in from Saskatchewan by rail to The Pas, my question to the Premier Is: will he explain where he is quoted In the Opasquia Times, The Pas, April 24th of this year, "Manfor was likely using Saskatchewan wood as it is economically viable to do so; I gather that's a good economic arrangement"? I wonder if the Premier would explain what he means by that quotation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the total package insofar as the arrangement with Saskatchewan is one 2301 that Is, in the overall basis, beneficial to the Manfor opera tion. Mr. Speaker, I don't belie ve one can take a total package, such as Manfor, and then start to analyze as to whether one particular segment of the total Manfor operation should be altered or not. The total picture has to be examined, and part of that total picture Is the arrangement that has been entered into between Manfor and the Saskatchewan operators. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, another supplementary to the Premier. Can the Premier advise the House today: is wood still coming In from Saskatchewan to Manfor? HON. H. PAWLEY: I take that question as notice, Mr. Speaker. Harvey, Murray and Manfor - non-conflict of interest situation MR. D. GOURLAY: Another question to the Premier. Murray Harvey, Chairman of the Board, Manf or, is one of the principal shareholders and a director of New North Ve ntures Limited, which prints and publishes the Opasquia Times at The Pas.

In view of the fact that Manfor does a considerable amount of adver tising and commercial printing at Opasquia Times, can the Premier advise the House what guidelin es are in place, or how does the government satisfy itself there is a non-conflict of interest situation between Mr. Harvey and Manfor? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll take that question as notice as Min ister of Crown In vestments. Agricultural community - viability of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the First Minister. In 1982 and 1983 the Member for Pemblna, and in 1984 the Member for Rhi neland introduced Private Mem bers' Resol utions in this House calling on the Federal Government to elimi nate farm fuels' - (I nterjection) - taxes. MR. SPEAKER: Question? MR. P. EYLER: In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that the Federal Government recently increased the excise tax on farm fuels by 2 cents a litre, can the Premier give the assurance that he will give consideration and perhaps dona te some government time to this resolution when it is introduced again this Session by the Member for Pemblna or the Member for Rhine land? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is hypothetic al. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EY LER: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . A supplementa ry question to that hypothetical question,

Monday, 'Z1 llay, 11185 then perhaps. Mr. Speak er, we have a Federal Government which seems to be using the carrot and stick approach to getting western farmers out of farming. The carrot is the $500,000 capital gains exemption on the sale of their farms, and the stick is the 2-cent-a-litre gas tax that they've increased . Can the First Minister assure the farming community that this government will do everyt hing within its power, within Its jurisdiction, to ensure the viability of the agricultural community in Manito ba? HON. H. PAWLEY: I thank the Member for River East for this question.

I would really have thought in view of the past record of the Member for Pembina, and the Member for Arthur, with respect to their attitude in regard to this specific measure during the time of the Liberal Government in Ottawa, who said they wouldn't have been able to wait to leap to their feet Friday morning or Monda y, in order to pose questions to the Min ister of Finance here and the Minister of Agriculture as to what they would be doing insofar as this imposition of tax by the Federal Conservative Government in Ottawa impacting as it is upon the farm economy. Mr.

Speaker, I will certainly look into what measures we can undertake, since obviously we can't expect much from across the way in regard to this item, as to ensure that the attention is brought to the government in Ottawa of the inflicting of additional financial strain upon the farmers of Western Canada , during a time when those West ern farmers are having a very difficult time in eking out an existence. Gas rebate to farmers - impact on provincial revenues MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHA RD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier.

Could the Premier Ind icate whether the 4.8-cent-a-litre rebate to farmers as brought in, in the last six months, by the new Federal Government has any impact on provincial revenues? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I gather it has not. And, Mr. Speaker, it is offset and the Minister of Finance can provide some further information In respect to that.

I am disappointed though, I thought the Member for Pembina was jumping to his feet with the strength of sincerity, demons trated by his past utterances in this Cham ber, to have posed questions further on the question of what his Cons ervative Government in Otta wa is doing. And, Mr. Speak er, I'm very disappointed at the obvious lack of initiative on the part of honourable members across the way in regard to this matter. Gosselin, Louis - meeting to discuss English issue MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speak er.

I address my question to the Ministe r of Education. With respect to the very sensitive issue of increasing the share of English instruction at the St. Pierre schools, the Minister has repeated ly ind icated her unwillingness to be involved in the local issue and I can understand her reasons for saying that; however , did a Mr. Louis Gossel in, emplo yee of the Bureau de !'Education Francaise, meet with the local Federation du Committee du Parent on April 16, 1985, to discuss the issue? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I'll take the specific question as notice in terms of, did a member of the staff of the bureau meet with the community on a particular day. Of that I'm not sure, although it Is usual procedure for members of the Bureau to meet with school boards and school divisions when they are making decisions about programming, to provide them resouce material, advice and support and information that they require in .order to make their decision. lt is quite probable as a member of the staff, that Information could have been provided to the board to help them make their decision. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, my understand ing was, the meeting was not with the local school board. Was the purpose of the meeting allegedly attended also by the director general of the SFM? Was the purpose of the meet ing to discuss strategy against the percentage increase of teaching in English? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the first answer, that I have no particular knowledge of that specific meeting. I'll have to take any questions regarding that meeting as notice and provide the information to the member at a subsequent date. Forest fire - Porcupine MountaiAa MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , last week the Memb er for Swan River posed the question with respect to a fire at the Porcupine Mountains. I simply want to report to him that there were 300 acres involved in that fire. lt appears to be man-caused and charges apparently are being laid, and it is apparently under control. Beaver Dams - removal policy HON. S.

USKIW: With respect to a question put to me by the Member for Emerson, as to whether or not there has been a change in policy with respect to beaver control in the Duck Mountains, I think the best way to handle that would be simply to pass on to the Member for Emerson the current polic y which has been unchanged for some period of time. Noxious weed control - rights-of-way MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. My question is for the Minister of Highways. Could the 2302

Monday, 'Z1 May, 1985 Min ister ind icate whether the districts are under any budgetary rest rictions in their Maintenance Program to undertake noxious weed control programs along the ' rights-of-way owned by the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, I could ind icate as we've discussed during Estimates this year of my department, that there has been an expansion of the Maint enance Program. There has been no reduction, Mr. Speaker, in any of the main tenance areas this year. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speak er, with a rather severe outbreak of leafy spurge, a highly noxious weed in various parts of the province, can the Minister give the municipalities in which the rights-of-way are so inf ested with such weeds as leafy spurge, that the department can undertake control immediately while that particular weed is in flower? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well I would assume, Mr. Speaker, that the member is referring to those rights-of-way that are controlle d by the Highways Department, not the municipalities. However, the question was somewhat ambiguous in that regard.

Obviously, the department will unde rtake the program in the same way they have in the past. If there is a particularly bad situation, Mr. Speaker, the member can forward details of that to me and I will ask the department to see if they can take specific measures to address it. MR. D. ORCHARD: A final supple mentary then, will a simple phone call to the district office or the subdistrict office be all that is necessary for a muni cipality or an Indiv idual property owner to in itia te Hig hways Department weed control along right-of-ways owned by the province? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Mr. Speaker .

I don't think that would be the appropriate way to do it at this time. I would like the member to bring forward the concern to me and we will deal with it through the . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, the details of it, Mr. Speaker . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know, Mr.

Speaker, whether they want to hear or discuss this problem. lt seems to me a joke rather than a serious problem, the way these members are proce eding. • lt's obvious to me that there are some details that the member has not given with regard to the particular areas where there is a specific problem. I would like to get that information from the mem ber, as I have ind icated, and we will look into whether special measures have to be taken or whether the routine measures that are taken each year will suffice. That's the information that I will need. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker , my question for the Min ister: is he to be made aware of every noxious weed problem in all of the 15 ,000-odd miles of right­ of-ways in Manito ba? He, as Min ister, will receive all of those complaints or is he going to let the district offices, when notified, look after those complaints? Why does the Min ister have to be the one who looks after every bad weed in the province? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker , the mem ber, on the basis that he is inde ed asking the questions in this House, seems to be ind icating that there is an ex traordina ry situation that needs to be addressed and that it isn't routine. So under normal circumstances the departments through the districts would deal with the problem of weed control. However, if there are some special problems here that the member is trying to bring forward and is unable to do because he doesn't have the details, then we would address them through the department centrally through the Deputy Minister. I would like to hear what those are.

I'd like them passed onto us and we will see whether the routine measures that are taken on a year-to-year basis are sufficient to deal with the problem, Mr. Speak er. World Exposition '86 -Manitoba role MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honour able First Minister. I wonde r, can the First Min ister advise the House what active role your government or Manitoba will play during the World Exposition '86 which will be held in Vancouver, May to October, 1986. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would accept that question on behalf of the Minister respo nsible for Business and Tourism. Manitoba will be playing a role in respect to Expo and the Min ister will be detai ling the extent of that role. MR. W. McKENZIE: Can I ask the First Min ister if any of the privately-owned firms, or the companies from Manitoba's manufacturing base will have made plans to become actively involved with the displays at Expo '86 to add to, I think, what the theme of the exposition will be, transportation and communi cations? I wonder if any of the business firms in the province will be - (Interjec tion) - involved.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The subject matter of questions should be within the adminis trative competence of the government. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? MR. W. McKENZIE: Can I ask the First Minister whether he's had any discussions with any of the businesses in the province, manufactu ring, industrial or otherwise, regarding their plans to put up displays or take

part in Exposition '86 in Vancouver next summer? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated a few moments ago, the Minister responsible for Business 2303

Monday, 27 May, 1985 and Tourism will be pleased to provide as much information to the member and to the memb ers of this House as possible in that regard. Chicken farming regulations MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I asked the First Minister, it must be two weeks ago - and it was referred to the Minister of Agriculture - regard ing the cutback of a number of broilers that local producers can take to their killing plant. I wonder if that information is available now. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, there is no exemption change in the production of - (Interject ion) - broilers that ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, there is no exemption change in the number of broilers that a producer can produce. Where the board has attempted to define as to how much actual unregu lated production occurs in this province, because of the national quota, they have instituted this measure of defining how much actual slaughter is being put through a processing plant based on previous years, slaughterings through a local plant.

That's the criteria that the board has followed in order to determine how much slaughter is actually occurring by unregistered producers. Liquor Control Commission - markup on spirits MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a que stion to the Minister of Finance. The Budge t announced effective May 24th an increase, a levy on spirits, beer and wine, of 2 percent. Could the Finance Minister Indicate whether the Liquor Control Commission will be applying, for example, its 13 8 percent markup on spirits which would �esuit in about a 5. 75 percent increase? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I could tell the member about the newscast I heard which indicated that there was apparently a price increase of 25 cents on a bottle of spirits and 5 cents on a case of beer. I don't know what that translates into in percentages and I don't know that that's the final increase. I'll take the question as notice for the Attorne y-GeneraL I'm sure he'll let you know. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for taking that question as notice. North of Portage Development - grants for labour centre MR. G.

MERCIER: I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. Coul d he ind icate whether th e Provincial Government will in any way be lending or giving grants for the construction of the labour centre in the North of Portage Dev elopment? HON. L. DESJARDINS: What centre? MR. G. MERCIER: The Union Centre. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, not that I know of. Certainly it wouldn't be through our department Telex to South Dakota response to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, last week the Premier indicated that the matter of hog exports and the imposition of artificial trade barriers was a federal matter and then decided him self to send a communication to the Governor of South Dakota. Has he had a response yet from the Governor of South Dakota? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the telex in fact was sent to three governors, not one governor, and there has been no response as of yet Road resurfacing, City of Winnipeg - responsibility of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C.

SANTOS: I have some complaints from some of my constituents about road resurfacing and I don't know exactly where the jurisdiction lies, so I would like to ask the Minister of .Transportation whether the province has any say at all in the time or method of road resurfa cing within the City of Winnipeg which is affect ing some businesses adversely? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, without having details of the particular situation, if it's in the neighbourhood of the Perimeter Highway in areas of the city, that the province may have some jurisdiction; otherwise, it's completely the jurisdiction of the City of Winnipeg. They are respo nsible, through Works and Operations, for the timing and the kinds of work that they undertake. The mem ber, of course, should be discussing it with the mayor or a councillor of the City of Winnipeg if he has concerns. · NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. 2304

Monday, 27 May, 1985 MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to make a non-political statement. MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I think that an ev ent should not go unrecognized in this Chamber; namely, recog nition of a distinguished Manitoban. The Honourable D. L. Campbell will be celebrating his 90th birthday today. We all know that he served in this Chamber from 1922 to 1969, some 47 years. He served for 10 years as the Premier of the province and is, without doubt, Manitoba's senior states man.

So I know that all MLAs and all Manitobans would want to wish him well on his 90th birthday. COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Aiel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a few changes to the Law Amendments: the Member for Churchill for The Pas; the Member for St. Boniface for Transcona; the Member for Springfield for Fort Rouge; and the Member for lnkster for St. James. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, a change in Law Amendments: Orchard for Hammond. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before we call the first item of busine ss for today, 1 would like to advise the House that the Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet on Thursday of this week, the 30th of May, at 10:00 a.m., to consider and report on the Annual Reports of the Ma nit oba Oil and Gas Corporat ion , ManO II, and Manitoba Mineral Resources Company Ltd. Mr. Speaker, as well, I have a revised list of the order of Estimates consideration after some consultation with the Opposition House Leader.

I believe members have already been advised that following Agriculture in the House will be the Department of Education; followed by Community Services; followed by the Jobs Fund; then Legislative Assembly; and Executive Council. Sir, in the committee room, the committee section, following Government Services, which was announced last week, we would move to the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security; Industry, Trade and Technology; Housing; Energy and Mines; Civil Service Commission; and Labour. That, Sir, would conclude the Estimates. Those are the departments in each

section of the committee left to be considered. I announced the full list, Mr. Speaker, with the House, of course, knowing that the list is subject to revision and change, depending on the availability of Ministers and critics. Any changes will be announced by me after consultation with the Opposition House Leader, but that is the tentative schedule. Mr. Speaker, unless there are any questions from the Opposition House Leader with regard to those two announcements, I would ask you to call the resolution standing on Pages 4 and 5 of the Order Paper. RESOLUTION RE MANITOBA - A NUCLEAR WEAPONS FREE ZONE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed resolution of the Honourable First Min ister , and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Member for Elllce has 40 minutes. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this debate on behalf of my leader. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, first I would like to commence my remarks by indicating my satisfaction at the level of debate which has taken place in this Chamber in regard to this res olution, which clearly must be one of the most crucial and demanding issues confronting not just Manitoba but the entire world community today. Mr. Speaker, I have been impressed by the fact that I do belie ve, as a result of the dis cussion that's taken place in this Chamber, that there is room for consensus, the coming together of a resolution that would clearly and unmistakably demonstrate the un ited consensus of Canadians.

I would also like to particularly commend the Leader of the Opposition for his remarks which gave rise to the amendment which the Leader of the Opposition had presented to this Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that this amendment, rather than remove from the original principle of the resolution that was introduced in this Chamber, adds to that original principle; and, by way of its proposal, that this House call upon both super powers , both the USSR, the United States, in the name of humanity, to intensify their joint efforts to disarm; and, accepting the fact that in order that there be a climate of trust developed, that such disarmament must take place by way of mechanisms that can ensur e that there is verifiable disarmament. Mr.

Speaker, so what we indeed have heard in this Chamber with hardly any except ion - I believe there was some re servation by the Honourable Member for Brandon West - but I want to just Inform the Member for Brandon West , he must have been ill-inf ormed insofar as the wishes of the young people in this province. I have spoken in many many high schools and universities over the past year, two years, three years In this province. This is the No. I issue, and those students are asking for a nuclear arms free zone. This is not an idea that germina ted by way of a seed on this side of the Chamber; Mr.

Speak er, it is indeed an idea that germinated amongst Manito bans, and especially young Manitobans. So I would still encourage the Honourable Member for Brandon West to give his support to this resolution 2305

Monday, 27 May, 1985 in recognition of the fact that this is an idea that was truly given germination in Manitoba by the young people of this province who have certainly, without reserv ation I must say, in any address I have been called upon to del iver, expressed this as their No. 1 priority, close, of course, along with jobs, as being a matter of major concern. So I would ask the Honourable Member for Brand on West to reconsider his thoughts in respect to that. His first blush of comments were understandable, and I would trust that the honourable member at this stage would give some further consideration.

We are all, as elected representatives, repres enting constituents, constituents that are concerned, first, that the monies that are being expended worldwide, billions of dollars, would be better directed to an all-out attack upon famine, poverty and unemployment throughout the world, Mr. Speaker. I have grave concerns that until we do redirect our focus from the military to peaceful means of attacking the root causes of war, that it will be like spitting in the wind in order to attempt to ensure a climate for peace. So a firm stand has to be taken, Mr.

Speaker, and it is not adequate that we opt out, or we withdraw, or we leave it to somebody else, or we indicate that the next fellow has got to do it, or the next country, or the next nation. But, Mr. Speaker, the responsibility rests with us, as individuals, and as a provincial community.

Since this resolution was introduced I have received personal letters from scores of Manitobans, from scores of organizations, from churches and other organizations, expressing their pleasure that Manitoba will be in the forefront of leading the way, for giving a clear and firm signal to all of Canada, in fact to all of the world, about our solidarity in respect to this most important issue that, as the Honourable Memb er for Brandon West has indicated In his earlier speech, cannot be tainted by partisan politics because it emb races all humanity, and must not be so tainted. Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated a few moments ago the amendment that was introduced by the Leader of the Opposition was in my view, one that can add rather than subtract, from the intent of the original resol ution. lt is important that Manitoba give a clear signal, and that is demons trated by way of the resolution that was introduced in this Cham ber. lt is also equally important, Mr. Speaker, that we ensure that the signal does reach the ears of those who are substantially responsible by way of power for the nuclear arms race on Planet Earth. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is impo rtant that every mem ber join with the final resolution in this Chamber, so there be a clear message; so that when we do have the traditional Walk for Peace that takes place and supported by a broad

section of Manitobans; in fact I believe I can say without fear of exaggeration that the Walk for Peace in Manitoba, ratio to population, probably exceeds that Walk for Peace which occurs anywhere else in Canada, I believe, even better than the Vancouver record. So the intensity of the feeling does exist in the Province of Manitoba, and people from all political stripes participate in that walk.

I remember when the former Deputy Leader of the Cons ervative Party participated in that walk; the Member for Winnipeg Fort Garry, the former Mini ster respo nsible for Transportation federally participated in that walk; provincial politicians; the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg always participates in that Walk for Peace. So what is imp ortant, tha t th ere be a all­ encompassing broad consensus of support by all Manitobans, and for this issue that we set aside any partisan considerations that we might otherwise have. There is not much point, Mr.

Speaker, as I believe I indicated in my earlier remarks, that we spend days and weeks and months attempting to pass legislation in this Chamber, creating new programs and ideas for presentation to impr ove the human condi tion of Manitobans, and that we expend so much of our life, as elected representatives, whether we're Liberal, Social Cred it, Conservative or New Democrat, if at the end we end up being part of a chaotic situati on, a catastrophe that in fact blows the entire world to smithereens and our children, and children's children, along with the Planet Earth. So, Mr.

Speaker, I believe there is that resolve; I believe there is that commitment; there is that strength of purpose that is demo nstrated in this Chamber that reflects the strength of purpose of Ma nitob ans everyw here that are calling out for a clear signal, that are calling out for the two major superpowers. And I would hope that after that, Mr. Speaker, the others that orbit around the fringes of the two major superpowers would also be part of a nuclear arms reduction. Mr.

Speaker, I think we can do our little part - and I don't suggest it's a major part, never did, it's only a few inches along the path towards ensuring that we have world peace - but we can proceed a few inches here by ensuring there Is unanimous support to this resol ution. So we can say, not only to the USSR, and to the United States, and to our own govern ment In Ottawa, every member in this Chamb er spoke out clearly and voted unanimously in support of the re solution. Mr.

Speak er, th erefore, I would beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, THAT the proposed amendment be amended by striking out all the words after the word "words" in the THAT clause and before the third

WHEREAS clause, and substituting therefor the words "after the words 'third world; and" in the fourth WHERE AS clause and before the sixth

WHEREAS clause and adding thereto the following: "and THA T following th e word "a nnihil ation" in the remaining

WHEREAS clause and before the RESOLVED clause in the amendment, the following clause be added: "AND THAT the Resolution be amended, following the word "peace" In the RESOLVED clause, by adding thereto the following: '; and"' and THAT the word "FURTHER" be added after the word "IT" and the words "the Government of Canada to request" be added after the word "request" in the RESOLVED clause. MR. SPEAKER: Since the proposed subamendment is somewhat complex I will take it under advisement to check it over. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your taking the amendment under advisement. To assist 2306

Monday, 'XI May, 1985 honourable members in understanding the complexity of it I have several copies, Sir, of what its impact would be on the proposed revised amendment should it pass; and also, Sir, should then the amendment passed as amended in the proposed subamendment, how the final proposed revised res olution would appear. That may be of assistance to members. Mr. Speak er, I beg to move, seconded by . . . Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I had hoped the Minister of Education would be here to move second reading on Bill 26, but I believe we can delay that until tomorrow.

I would move, Sir, us into Committee of Supply, if possible, Sir, with leave to sit through Private Members' Hour. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? Leave having been granted, the Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Min ister of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Speaker, this is a point of order, I presume. I wonder if the Clerk of the House might advise us when Hansard of Friday, May 24th, would be available? The purpose for my questioning, it contains the closing remarks on Second Reading to Bill No. 2 by the Minister of Health and we are to be dealing with that bill tomo rrow in Law Amendments Committee. Now, I mis sed the closing remarks that the Minister had, and it would certainly be of benefit if I were to have a copy of the 10:00 a.m. Hansard from Friday, May 24th, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on the same point. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to answer the question on behalf of the table as soon as I am advised by the Clerk. Mr. Speak er, I am advised that the Hansard is expected imminently; has been prepared and is at the printers. QUES TION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for th e Department of Government Services. The Member for River East.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order . This sect ion of the Comm ittee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. We shall begin with a statement from the Honourable Minister. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would first like to comment on my departmental staff who have done an excellent job in putting together the Estimates - a number of them are at the back of the room - and perhaps introduce to the mem bers of the opposition the new Deputy Minister, Eric Harbottle, who can just wave there, who has commenced work I guess about thr ee or four months ago in th e Department of Government Services. Again we have had excellent co-operation and hard work by all of the department in putting together these Estimates, and I just want to thank them for their co­ operation and ingenuity in putting together the package.

Before I introduce the 1985-86 Estimates and we get into the discussion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to com ment briefly on th e role and purpose of the Department of Government Services, ju st as an overview. Government Services' members may well know it's a central service agency within the Ma nitob a Government. The department is responsible for providing a wide range of central support services to all departments and some agencies, boards, corporations and commissions. These services are categorized as property services and supply services.

Property services entail the plann ing, des ign, acquisition/ construction and management of government-owned or leased property. They Include such services as project management, design, land acquisition, accommodation planning, maintenance and operation, construction, security and parking, employee housing, contract services, energy management, and the operation of the Gimli Industrial Park. Supp ly services entails th e acq uisit ion, supply management of common government commodities and services.

They include such things as fleet vehicles, purchasing, Inventory management, office equipment, tele communications and postal services. As the provider of these common services the department attempts to offer a cost-effective service to client departments - a service which, If delivered by departments themselves, would be neither as uniform nor as cost-effect ive to the government as a whole. Having said that, in terms of overview, I will now highlight some of my department 's major accomplishments during the past fiscal year.

During the'84-85 fiscal year the Emergency Measures Organization assisted in co-ordinating activities related to a number of incidents including: a severe ice storm In the lnterlake and South-Central areas; forest fire threats with ensuing evacuation in the Manigotagan area; a heavy rain storm in the Winnipeg and Elie areas; tornadoes In southern Manitoba; an explosion with ensuing evacuation in the Neepawa area; as well as 57 other incidents requiring emergency response. EMO has also co-ordin ated and supported the development of 16 municipal emergency plans in this past year and some of them were ongoing.

An additional 28 municipal and 25 Northern Affairs communities' emergency plans are currently being developed through 2307

Monday, 27 May, 1985 Emergency Measures. Flood emergency seminars were conducted in several rural communities to assist them in preparat ion for possible spring flooding, which members are aware of course did not develop but the potential was there - an extreme risk this spring in certain areas of the province. However, we were very fortunate. Since Februar y, 19 81 to March 5, 19 84, the province received $648,662 in Federal Government contributions under the Joint Emergency Planning Program. In this regard , EMO assisted the province by liaising with the Government of Canada for this funding.

In 19 84-85, this program included the commencement of a five­ year plan to improve Manitoba's state of emergency preparedness. Specific init iatives include the preparation and testing of emergency plans in various commu nities, the development and conduct of related training programs, efforts to preserve essential records, and ongoing liaison with private sector agencies to encourage their participation in emergency planning.

Other projects under the Joint Emergency Planning Program include: the provision of specialized equipment for mobile monitoring units operated by the Provincial Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health; and provision for both a command post/rescue vehicle operated by the Town of Neepawa Fire Department and an emergency mobile command centre vehicle operated by the Government of Canada and the province. EMO also continued to act as the province's liaison agency with the Government of Canada regard ing dis aster of financial assistance arrangements.

For example, the province has forwarded a claim for $1. 1 million for the federal share of costs related to last spring's ice storm. In 19 85-86, the Ma nitoba Emergency Measures Organization will continue to implement and maintain program activities in emergency planning, training and education. Also in 19 84-85, the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board was primarily involved with two major incidents. In response to the ice storm of April 27 and 28, 1984, the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board received 227 claims. The total amount of compensation paid was $17 4,235.00.

The Board also dealt with the City of Winnipeg basement flooding which occurred on June 16, 21 and 22 of 19 84. The Board received approximately 1, 100 claims and paid out approximately $1. 4 million in compensation to Winnip eg homeowners. In addition, the Board compensated 19 residents of Elie with $6,393 as a result of this storm there. In 1984-85, the department continued to promote increased efficiency and effectiveness in its programs. Computer equipment has been installed and programs have been designed to automate the activities of our Purchasing Branch.

The complete implementation of this automated system is scheduled to take place in 198 5-86 fiscal year. Personnel records were also converted from a manual to an automated system which will be enhan ced over the next seve ral years. In 1985- 86, the department will commence to Implement plans to develop automated systems for revenue control, inventories and cash flow projections. In the area of mana gement planning, gr eater effi ciency and effectiveness was also promoted.

In 1984- 85, the department imp lemented a management planning system called Management by Results to assist senior management in identifying tangible performance indicators and quantifiable expected results. In the upcoming year, the department will monitor this new management system to ensur e that lt will be of maximum effect iveness. I would also like to mention my departm ent's continuing efforts to achieve greater financial accountability. In 19 84-85, the department's Internal Audit Program became fully operational.

Audits were conducted in the Workshop/ Renovations Branch, Material Supply and the District No. 4 Office. The audits identified areas where the Department can effect measures to increase efficien cy, effectiveness and accountabi lity. Recommendations were made and subsequently imp lemented. Materials Supply was audited in response to issues raised by the Provincial Aud itor. In this case, the department made some 35 recommendations. Comprehensive audits will continue on an on-going basis to further promote efficiency in the department over the coming years.

Through the application of numerous innovative and proven energy management techniques, Government Services is continuing to achieve a 20 to 25 percent red uction in energy consumption in the operation of government buildings. Relative to the 1979-80 base year, a cost-avoidance of approximately $1. 5 million was achieved in 1984-85. We expect a $1. 7 million cost­ avoidance for 1985-86. An example of one of the measures we've taken to reduce energy costs is the shutdown of the main boilers in the department's larger facilities during the summer months.

During this shutdown small heaters are used for heating dome stic water. An example of this is the Central Power House in downtown Winnipeg where the cost-avoidance due to this measure was $11 ,000.00. The department has also continued to conserve energy and to reduce costs of the government vehicle fleet by acquiring the smallest and most economical vehicles for the job. Of the total number of sedans in the fleet, compacts now represent 95 percent, as compared to 88 percent in 1982-83. So we're continuing on that program, although it's very small changes over the years now because we're reaching the peak.

In the upcoming year, the department will be concentrating its efforts on downsizing standard-sized vans where it is found practical to do so. Also in 1985-86, the province will be providing day cleaning for selected buildings on an alternate day basis. The department expects to avoid $1 00,000 through this experimental program.

In the area of land aquisition, in 19 84-85, the department became fully involved in land acquisition activities for the North Portage Dev elopment Project. lt is expected that total land acquisitions will evenually involve approximately 100 owners and tenants and will cost approximately $30 million. In 1984-85, renovations continued on the Robert Fletcher Building.

These renovat ions now are virtually complete and they have won a Heritage Winnipeg Award In the Archit ectural Conservation category, and we are very pleased with that and I know the staff in the department are very proud of winning that award for that building. One of our largest construction projects, the New Law Courts Building is virtually comple te and the official 2308

Monday, 'Z1 May, 1985 opening took place on April 12 , 1985. The opening marks Phase I of a plan to consolida te all court faci lities in one complex. The existing Law Courts Building will be renovated In the upcoming fiscal year, at least will begin. I would also lik e to mention the departme nt's purchase of the historic Bank of Nova Scotia Building which will house various government departments. Extensive renovations to restore, replicate or retain the buildings orglns features will be carried out in 1985. Construction on the Provincial Building in Flin Flon will continue in the upcoming year.

The building is schedul ed for completion in the fall of this year. In the new fiscal year, the department will continue its fire/safety upgrading in itiatives from previous years. Upgrading of the Manit oba School for the Deaf was virtually completed, with minor renovat ions to be completed In the upcoming year. The department Is currently un dertaking upgrading of pr ovincial institutions where dormitory facilities are located. For example, approxima tely $1 million will be expended on fire safety for the main building at He adingle y Correctional Institute.

In addition, almost .5 million will be spent in upgrading the North Grove building at Portage la Prairie School for Retardates. Additional upgrading will commence in the fall of 1985 involving approximately $800,000 for Selkirk Psych iatric Institute building at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. I would also like to mention my department's role in the Workpla ce, Safety and Health Program. The department is currently establishing a numb er of Workplace, Safety and Health Comm ittees and will be proceed ing to effect other measures in compliance with The Workplace, Safety and Health Act.

Final ly, I would like to add that in 198 5-86 my department will continue to review its operations for purposes of increasing efficiency and effectiveness and to ensure that our clients are provided with the optimum service delivery that is possible. While there are many other areas I could mention at this time, I would like to draw these intr oduc tory remarks to a close and ask the critics if they have some comments and then we can begin the line -by-line discussion, Mr. Chairman. 1 am pleased with our accomplishments in the department this past year.

There are many areas that we can im prove on and we will cer tainly be making every effort in that regard in the coming year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Either or both of the opting critics for the opposition may make the reply if they so decide. The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Yes, thanks, Mr. Chairman. I might start by sayi ng to th e Mi nister we note tha t hi s department's expend itures are up from $81 million to $12 2 million.

They're up drastically and in the Property Management areas where they are up substantial ly, the Minister in his opening statement spent some time on the Emergency Services area and went Into the various Ice storms that occurred and did a fair amount of damage in rural Manitoba, and the explosion that took place in Neepawa. A factor that I'm very close to is the rain storms that took place here in the City of Winnip eg last June and the numbers of basements that were flooded that the Provincial Government assisted by more than $1 million in the assisting of Winn ipeg homeowners after that rainstorm.

He went on to mention new equipment and a num ber of other things and one area that really interests me is doing the audit In various branches of the government to see if they are operating as efficiently as possible and it's good that he's got an ongoing system where various branches each year will be aud ited and hopefully, over a five-year period maybe every branch within his department will be looked at for efficiency as to whether the manpower -or person power I guess is the word I should use -is working at its very best.

They can only work at their best if the equipment they are working with is modern equipment and the type of equipment that one wants on the job.

I might at this time point out to the Minister that one of the complaints that we in the opposition have had and we've talked to the Government House Leader on it a numb er of times, is the fact that we have four secretaries looking after 22 members in the opposition, and working out of a space of about equivalent to a two-car garage, or less than; that they are working under such close working conditions that I am sure that if we took the matter up with the Minister who is responsible for The Workpla ce Safety and Health Act that we, as politicians, would be in violation of the work regulations that they establish.

Now, with the new program that both sides of the House have established - a legislative interns program to start this fall -it's very hopeful that the Mini ster of Government Services Is going to be able to find some space, and it has to be within this building, or else the program will never succeed if those students are not working closely in relationship to the elected persons. So, Sir, with those opening comments, we look forward to going through the Minister's Estimates. I would ask the Min ister, through you, Mr.

Chairman, because our normal critic is not feeling well, the Member for Vlrden and myself and the Member for Kirkfield Park have agreed, from the official opposition side, to try and carry on In the absence. If the Min ister and you, Mr. Chairman, will give us a little bit of leeway from the normal li ne-by-line routine on the questioning, I think that we will accomplish what both sides want, and that is to pass the Minister's Esimates in an adequate amount of time with a reasonably thorough study of the Estimates. So with those comments, Mr. Chairman, we can perhaps start. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Vlrden.

MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Min ister spent a great deal of time with some aspects of this program, but I suppose it's only fair that you don't try and hit some of the sensitive spots, the problem areas that you have. I sup pose that it's only natural; no Mi nister li kes to have his department fingered by the Provincial Auditor. I am very pleased to see that the internal audit that the department is carrying on, probably as a result of the concerns expressed by the Provincial Aud itor. I 2309

Monday, 27 May, 1985 hope that it succeeds because there is a vast amount of public money being spent by this department. The Provincial Auditor expressed his concern in his annual report, and we sincerely hope that the areas that require tightening are in fact tightened up. The security that all of us want to have in the knowledge that our public dollar is being well-spent is one that falls pretty heavy on his shoulders.

I notice also that, while he mentioned the amount of new properties that they are going to be responsible for, the additions this year, he made no mention at all about some of the properties that he lost. Through the course of the Estimates, we will certainly want to ask a few questions about the properties that have been sold, and we would like to know just how well that transaction is working out with Manitoba Properties Limited and when we get down to Item No. 2, I think that will probably be the area where we would like to address quite a few remarks to the Minister with respect to that operation. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The Chairperson at this point in time now in vites the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Deferring the Minister's Salary as the last item for consideration by this committee, we now start our deliberations on Item No. 1. (b)( 1), 1. (b)(2), Executive Support, and if the members so desires we'll call out the items so they can have free questions on any item. Can I call them as a block? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Sure. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) to 1. (f)(2) were each read. 1. (f)

(2) Systems: Other Expenditur es -Mr. Minis ter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, before we begin I would like to pass out the staffing ch anges for the whole department for the year. I think it might be helpful to avoid any confusion later on or maybe detailed questioning in areas that could very easily be answered at one time. So I would like to pass out the staffing summaries to the members of the opposition and to all the mem bers here and then perhaps just highlight the changes for them.

In the admi nistration division, there is the addition of one staff and this is a secret arial position that was transferred from Supply Services, Executive Admin istration to provide for a computer programmer In the Systems Branch. An addi ti onal computer programmer was taken from within, so it shows an extra SY in that category . There is also a reduction of half an SY, that is the Minis ter because I am involved with two departments there is a reduction. So there Is a net inc rease In the admi nistration of half an SY.

In Property Management there Is a reduction of one SY and that was made up of a building service worker, a position transferred from Physical Plant to Emergency Measures. So the position again was an internal transfer for other priorities and will show up under No. 6 on the sheet that I've passed to the members under EMO as an additional SY.

Unde r Supply and Servic es Division there Is a reduction of three SYs total, as ind icated on the paper that was passed about: one is a secretarial position transfer from Executive Adminis tration to the Admin istration Division, Systems Branch, to provide for the computer programmer that I just mentioned; and two in the area of the Postal Services. First postal clerk positions elimi nated to there. That was accomplished by reducing the number of mall pickups and deliveries in the City of Winnipeg; so those are the major changes. I've mentioned the one additional one to EMO.

Now, Project Services, there are two additions. They are additional clerical positions approved for Land Acquisition Branch due to the Increased workload over the last number of years that has been building up, and in effort to catch up on some of that Increased workload, so we have two additional positions there. Again, they have been reprlorized from within, from Supply and Services, as I indicated, and I've mentioned the one for Emergency Measures. Those are the staffing changes; they're relatively minor overall. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, when you're dealing with Executive Support, I think it would be very remiss if I didn't take a little time to express my appreciation, because I've been around this building for a few years, and during that period of time the former Deputy Minis ter, Mr. Brako, who has been a long-time civil servant and served this department and two or three other departments over the years, has provided for this province exemplary service over the years. I would like to express my appreciation at this time for the privilege of having known Mr.

Eirako and I certainly wish him every happi ness and success in his retirement, which I und erstand, Mr. Min ister, you said will be occurring in August, which is not that far away, really. So I want to express, on behalf of the opposition, our appreciation to Mr. Brako for the many years of faithful and dedicated service to the public In the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I just want to add my comments to that. I neglected to do that in Introducing the new Deputy Mini ster. Mr.

Brako is still under the staff complement shown under Executive Support and is carrying out some speelal assignments with regard to the space use, particularly the Legislative Building, and I think that members of the opposition would find that welcome. lt's an area that needs to be looked at in terms of the long-term requirements for the buildin g and identifying exactly what the priorities should be for the building and that is the nature of his work at the present time until his retirement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: 1171r. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that Mr.

Brako is going to study the space require ments in the building, because the official critic for the Conservative Party mentioned they have a space problem and so do I. I would like to ask the Min ister, either at this point or at another point, If he could indi cate what the minimum space requirement is for a civil servant, No. 1; and, seco ndly, for an MLA, if there is such a measure; and, third, for an MLA and 2310

Monday, 27 May, 1985 a secretary . Because I think that on all of those counts the closet that I've been provided with is inadequate. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, there are some rather detailed questions that the member is asking, and certainly that whole area should properly be dealt with under No. 4. Project Services and space planning. If that is agreeable to the members, I think that's where that matter should be discussed over all. it's quite more far reaching than simply the matter of Mr. Brako's current assignment dealing with the space requirements in the Legis lative Building. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1) -p ass; 1.(b)(2)-pa ss. 1.(c)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. w STEEN: A short question to the Minister. Is this where one of the personnel was removed to another area of Government Services? Is that why there Is the saving in Salaries this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s, that accounts for most of the difference there in the red uction in that appropriation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. w. STEEN: Another question to the Min ister.

In his annual statem ent it says this branch, Management Support Services Branch, is integrated and is looking at policy and program evaluation and systems. The Minister, in his opening statement, mentioned that they're constantly looking at various branches within his department. Is this the area of personnel that really evaluates the various branches of Government Services as to whether they are working as effi ciently as possible? Are these the people that carried out the audit that he referred to in his opening statement? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: No, the internal auditor is not under this sec tion; Finance and Administration is where you would find the internal auditor. This Is a program evaluation

section which does review various programs within the department and makes recom mendations as to their efficiency and organization. MR. W. STEEN: I would ask the Minister, this is obviously a very small branch of his department, but could he tell us the job classifications that exist within this department? Are we talking here about five employ ees or six empl oyees? Because his annual statement says that they are program eval uation people, and just what are their job descriptions or titles? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ther e are PM 02s, Planning Program Analyst 02s, in this area.

The communications co-ordinator is one of the people in this particular area. There's an admin istrative secreta ry, an AY3; management support person, a PM04; a policy and program analyst PM02; and a special projects analyst, PM02; so there are three PM02s, an AY3, and a PM04 in this sect ion, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: l.(c)(1)- pass; 1.(c)(2)-p ass. 1.(d)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. W STEEN: To the Minister, Mr. Chairman. He mentioned I believe a moment ago that this is where the audit personnel exist under this expenditure and we are looking at $630,000 in Salaries.

Ho w many persons does he have wit hin his department that can go into another branch of the department and do an audit? Can he elaborate to what extent they will go in? How long will they stay In a branch? Can he maybe use an example of a motor vehicle, or one of the departments that he has spoken of in his opening remarks, and give us an idea how long it takes for these people to do it, and a sample of what kind of resu lts he has been able to see while he has been Minister of this portfolio? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there are two SYs in this, the internal auditor and his support, an assistant staff mem ber. So there are two that are involved with the internal auditor. They have reviewed a number of branches in the past year. The time required depends, of course, on the complexity of the particular branch, the number of staff involved and the kinds of operations that they are unde rtaking. The Workshop Renovations Branch was one of the ones that was reviewed this past year, and the review of the implementation of the recommendations were done as a result of the pilot internal comprehensive audit report.

For example , they found that due to delays in replacing the manager of the branch there was some difficulty in actually implementing all of the particular recommendations that were made. However, that has been rect ified and there will be a number of follow­ ups on the recommendations that were made by the internal auditor. I am not cer tain the length of time that was involved in that particular Workshop Renovations Branch and the particular findings. I could get that Information for the member as to specific recommendations that were made but we don't have those here at the present time, Mr.

Chairman. lt's something I guess I could discuss with the member if he was int erested . it's internal informa tion for admin istrative purposes. it's not something that I get, as Minister, very much involved with in terms of the administration of the department. That's left largely to the Deputy Minister. If there are major re commendations that require polic y decisions, obviously they would be brought forward.

I can mention the District 4 of The Pas as one of the major areas that was reviewed this past year; Material Supply was another one that was also done and it dealt with the reconciliation of the billing process and segregation of physical and administrative control over obsolete surplus material. These issues were addressed and new procedures have been implemented as a result of the internal auditor's work. So there has been some positive developments as a result of the work that they did.

With regard to Leased Properties, there was a comple te Internal review of the financial and management systems and practices of the Leased Properties opera tion. They reviewed the organization, the reporting relationship, the role of the program, planning systems and controls, and the reporting of 2311

Monday, 27 May, 1985 results and this has resulted in re commendations being made to improve the control and efficiencies of the syste ms being operated. The internal audit report for this

section is still in its draft stage and is being reviewed by the branch management at the present time after it was brought forward. So the follow-up is still in process. MR. W. STEEN: I thank the Mi nister. I would agree with him that he shouldn't table documents that might be discussing the names of perso nnel that are working in departments. He mentioned the four departments, and I am glad he did because I missed it in his opening remarks, I couldn't take notes as quickly as he can read.

In this fiscal year, what areas of his department does he plan to have the audit branch review; or is this a matter of some thing that you don't publicly say and the y go in unannou nced ; or do the y go in full y announced with the understanding that they'r e trying to look for methods of making the department more efficient rather than being there as auditors to find matters that might be pertaining to personnel rather than efficiencies within the department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We ll, Mr. Chairman, my unde rstanding is that the primary objective is to improve efficiencies within the department.

They are not going in there on a witch hunt or trying to identify particular staff or problems with regard to staff and personnel matters. They are in there to look at the procedures that are in place, the programs that are in place, and the ways of delivering them more efficiently. They work very closely with the managers and staff in the areas that they are reviewing and with their full co-oper ation. So there cert ainly isn't that adversity kind of relationship that's developed between the internal auditor and the branches that are being reviewed.

With reg ard to the coming year, I believe they are going to be looking at the Perso nnel Branch, Design Services, Central Vehicles Branch and the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board. That will be the four areas that will be priorized for a review this coming year. There may be others depending on time available. We realize that we are dealing with two staff here. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that last year the audit dealt with Leased Properties, and took a fairly extensive look at those agreements.

Could I ask the Minister If the deal with Manitoba Properties Limited was one of those properties that they took a look at? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, individual leasing of Leased Properties, the process of dealing with Leased Properties was looked at by the int ernal auditor. The matter of the Manitoba Properties Incorporated is a financing arrangement, as the member is well aware, and any details as to the way that the financing is undertaken and the purposes of it would and should be best dealt with by the Minister of Finance.

We are simply at this time continuing to manage all of the properties tha t have been mana ged before by Government Services. However, paym'lnts are made and that's why of course, when we get to that

section of the budget, to Manitoba Properties Incorporated, for the lease on those buildings, but the management is still the same as it's always been with regard to the Department of Government Services. it's simply a financing arrangement, as the member is aware, for the purposes of accomplishing cost benefits to the Province of Manitoba. MR. H. GRAHAM: We ll, Mr. Chairman, I'm quite prepared to leave that. When we're dealing with the audit and the fact that he had mentione d that they had looked at leased property I just wanted to know if they had looked at that deal.

I presume from the Minister's answer that the answer is no, they did not look at it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, the internal auditor from our department did not look at that particular issue. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)( 1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate what political staff he has in Govern ment Services? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have two vacant positions in Government Services. Insofar as political staff, I do not have any political staff in the Department of Government Services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What are the two positions? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: One of the two under the Executive Support sect ion here, that's one we passed already, the SA and the EA positions that were formerly there for the previous Minister which are vac ant. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If I may, is the Minister planning to fill those positions in the near future? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't anticipate filling them as long as I'm Minister of more than one department. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are we at Personnel Services? MR. CHAIRMAN: We called all of Item 1 for flexibil ity. We will do the same for No. 2. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I noticed in the Annual Report that the department has an Affirmative Action Program and I was wondering how many women have been moved into senior positions since the program was introduced. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There is current ly, Mr. Chairman, an Affirmative Action Program that Is actually being developed at the present time; it has not yet been imp lemented as such . The affirmative action co­ ordinator has been hired.

She is respo nsible for asses sing and developing a program, assessing positions, Identifying positions and people, assess ing the pool of talent that is available, and then dev eloping 2312

Monday, 27 May, 1985 a program to implement in a positive and active way an affirmative action program. However, that is still in the planning stage at the present time and so we haven't really seen the results of it at the present time. However, there have been several affirmative action activities that have been undertaken. There has been an inclusion of the commitment to affirmative action in the'85-86 Departmental Role Admission Statement. There has been a distribution of affirmative action policy to management.

There has been Inclusion of resp onsibil ity for affirmative action in managerial position descr iptions, integration of affirmative action to staffing function, affirmative action of routine staffing considera tion. There has been accu mula tion of target group inventory files, as I indic ated earlier, identification of target groups; establishment of communication links with agencies representing target group interests; hiring or promotion of 23 women into permanent or term positions in female under represented classifications.

So, even though the actual program hasn't been in place, there has been a number of women who have been affected at the present time. The hiring of 14 handi capped students through the STEP Program and the placement of 11 handicapped students in work experience projects was through the department. So there have been a number of positive developments in that area. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Min ister mentioned a co­ ordinator who was hired. Was that in-house? In other words, was that someone who was presently in ·staff, and what would her salary be? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, it was an external competition that resulted in the hiring of the equal emplo yment co-ordinator at a salary for' 85-86 of $38,000; so it was not a person who was promoted from within the department. As a result of the competition, the best person for the job happened to be someone from outside the department. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Outside the department, but possibly in government somewhere or was it just completely outside? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Mr. Cha irman, my un ders tandin g is tha t she was not from within government, at least the Provincial Government.

I don't think she was from any level of government. I'm advised that she worked for the Federal Government. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1)-p ass; 1.(d)(2)- pass. 1.( e)( 1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I realize this probably should have been asked under 1. (b), but can be asked under 1.(

e) quite as well I think. The former Minis ter had an executive assistant or a special assistant, Mr. Gary Grant, is he still in the employ of the department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Mr. Chairman . lt was termina ted sometime very shortly after the previous Minister retired from the position. MR. H. GRAHAM: Was that a termination or a transfer to another department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt was a termination. He is not employed I don't believe by any department at the present time. I believe he's engaged in his own business of farming or whatever. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)(1 )-pass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. 1. (f)( 1) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe this is the area where we have the use of the computers. The Minis ter indicated that there was an extension of the computer program. My first question is: all the computer programs that come under this system, are they tied into Data Services or are they free standing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand that there are both systems in place, some are and some are free standing. I could get the details of those that are and ar en't, but at the present time that is the information the member asked for.

They are not all tied into the Central Data Service. MR. H. GRAHAM: The Minister ind icated that computers are presently being used for, was it purchasing? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, in 1984 there were a number of developments In this area, and a number are planned for'85-86. In the fleet management information system, in 19 84- 85, there was ongoing main tenance and enhancements to the system that was in place and conversion to a high-speed line printer; in '85-86, there will again be enhancements to the system and an implementation of the store's inventory system.

With regard to the property management system, there was the imp lementation of the commitment accounting systems in di strict offices; there was installation of computer hardware In Districts 2 and 4, and an analysis of revenue acc ounting systems. In 1985- 86, it is planned to install computer hardware in zone offices and imp lement the revenue and accou nting system. As far as personnel information system, there is the development of the staffing system this past year, and a development of SY budget reporting.

In the coming year, there is the planned completion of the second phase of the emplo yee attendance record system. Under common material identification system -that's another area -again the enhancements of the program this past year and the intention in the coming year to convert the system to an HP-3000, which has additional capa bilities, and which is part of the purchasing system.

Under the purchasing information system,'84-85, there is the development of the purchasing bureau information system, and in the coming year an effort to enhance the system maintenance and enhancements for the syste m. lt was im plemented April 1s t, I unde rstand, this past year. In terms of the inventory management system, there was an effort this past year to investigate the system alternatives. In the coming year, the department plans to develop a material management im plementation program. 2313

Monday, 27 May, 1885 In the area of office services, there was a devel opment of system designs this past year, and there is an undertaking this coming year to develop and implement the equipment inventory files. In land acquisition, there was the investigation this past year of the integration into the property management system that's already in place. In the coming year, there will be a comprehens ive systems review with regard to land acquisition.

In admin istration, there was in the past year the implementation of the budget preparation and analysis system, and in the coming year a continued development of the micro-based financial reports. So those are the major areas. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I suppose we should properly be asking questions when we get down probably to Supply Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s. MR. H. GRAHAM: I just was curious as to how you could use a computer in the planning of purchases. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: it's obviously a very technical area, and we could have a computer programmer in here to give the kind of information that would provide us with all kinds of information as to exactly how it works and exactly what tasks are under taken or programmed into the system, but I could provide some information. The benefits of the system in purchasing, for example, is the availability of information, what is being purchased and where in the province it is being used, and this assists purchasing and developing more cost-effective supply strategies and new supply sources, especially in rural areas of the province.

With an instant update of supplier information, the purchasing agents will easily be able to review the performance of suppliers. Under the Buy Manitoba Program, which was Initiated in 19 83-84, it enables us to promote Manitoba industry. Statistics gener ated by the system will be used to evaluate the success of this program as to whether certain suppliers are becoming dependent on it and so on; how many are benefiting from it and which areas; how much total dollars are being saved or spent because of it.

So it gives us a good opportunity to evaluate our Buy Manitoba Program and to formula te policy on that basis for similar future endeavours.

The modernization of the purchasing process through automation provides the capability of handling a greater volume of purchases and a more timely and cost­ effectiv·e service to all customer departments. lt does help with stock requirements, invent ory, and providing information as to when it's expected, based on the program, that certain supplies are going to be required and in what volumes they are requir ed to be ordered so that sufficient supplies are there, but not excessive supplies or inventory, because of course that results in additional costs.

That was one of the major advantages in it that we fo und, especially in the areas of suppli es. The Inventories have been reduced and what is kept in inventory is just what is required. MR. H. GRAHAM: We ll, Mr. Chairman, if a computer Is being used as a recording system for purchases, I have no objection to that, but I was under the impression that it was the information that was In the computer was probably the information that was being used for purchase.

If that is the case, then I do have a little bit of concern; because If that is the basis, then I wonder how often the inf ormation that's in the computer is being updated because there would then be a tendency to be buying because the information was in the computer. We could be missing out on new products on the market and improved products, if we were buying on the basis of the information that was stored in the com puter.

That was the reason why I raised the question, if it's purely as a recording system for purchases after, but if the purchasing is being made on the basis of the information that is provided by the computer then I have a little bit of concern. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that this Information is .constantly being updated. Every purchase is being recorded, and information on that purchase is being recorded as to suppliers and the nature of the required equipment or supplies that are needed by the department or by other departments. lt goes by demand obviously.

I am not certain what the member Is getting at in terms of the nature of supplies that are ordered. If they are affected by the information on the com puter, obviously, they have to be to a certain extent in terms of specificat ions, but also we have to remember that what is ordered is dictated by the demand for it, which is iden tified by the consuming departments. But the information is constantly being updated and therefore is generally very current because it reflects every additional purchase that takes place. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps we can get into a more detailed discussion when we get into Supply and Services at which time we will have additional information. I'm prepared to let it wait till then. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f )(1) -pass; 1. (f)(2)-pass. There will be no resolution on Item No. 1. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a question here. Where is the Art Advisory Commit tee in the Estimates? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Under Design Services, Mr. Chairman, No. 4.(b). MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave and by agreement, I will call all of Item No. 2 so we can have leeway in our questions.

Items 2(a)(1) to �(j)(2) were each read. The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on the question of parking, we had several hundred spaces at the Law Courts where the new addition is and now that has been taken away. There was at one time a discussion of a parking structure. My impression is that employees in the area are now scrambling more than ever trying 2314

Monday, 27 M•r. 1985 to get into the Legislative Building lot, etc. How many spaces are there in the new Law Courts addition? How many spaces were there for surface parking before? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand, Mr. Chairman, that there was actually a net to gain with the new spaces coming on stream, 86 new parking spots, and with the gain on using the old vehicle garage for parking purposes now, that with those two combined it did more than offset the loss of spaces that were available at the present site before the construct ion.

So we're going to be net galners In terms of total spots that are available, not that anyone's suggesting that there's sufficient parking spots, but there hasn't been a net loss as a result of it. MR. R. DOERN: Can the Minister give me any numbers of surface parking and how many now in the building and how many In the provincial garage building? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, as I ind icated earlier, I und erstand there are 86 parking spots In the new Law Courts Building and there was a gain of 90 parking spots in the surface parking area that were previously used by fleet vehicles and for the garage purp oses, and 32 in the garage itself, the provincial garage. So there was a total of 208 new spots that came on stream. The net gain would have been -how many did we lose In the old Law Courts Building area, was it around 100 - from what I can gather from adding up these figures there was probably a pretty well break­ even point, Mr.

Chairman, on the parking spots that were lost when the Law Courts Building was constructed and those that were gained as a result of the other measures that I mentioned. lt was very close to a saw­ off on that, Mr. Chairman. MR. R. DOERN: Can the Mini ster indic ate - I assume, I don't know, but I assume that before it was a scramble parking system on the surface of the old Law Courts area -is that the case now? Or are the 30 spots In the provincial garage assigned and the 80 odd spots in the basement of the new building assigned, etc.? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand, Mr.

Chairman, that the majority of those spots were not scramble parking on the old surface lot. There were some that were, though. Now as far as the new parking spots, the 30 In the garage are not assigned -they are assigned -and the 86 in the Law Courts Building are also assigned spots but there was a numb er of the others that were lost that were assigned as well. MR. R. DOERN: Just in terms of sequence and phasing, Is the Min ister Indicating that those surface spots by the old provincial garage have just been freed up now or were they freed up a year or two ago? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: About two years ago before the commencement of construction of the new Law Courts Building, they were freed up. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a small suggestion. I park close to the Holy Father in front of the building and we have noticed in the last few years we once had a painted system of perpendicular lines, which made it very difficult to park because you had to make a left­ angle turn, then that was finally changed to a 45-or 60-degree turn, or whatever, but the lines haven't been painted for a couple of years. I keep telling Mr. Johnston that they need painting.

He keeps saying he has to see if he can get it through the Minister. All it requires is two cans of paint and one employee. I'm sure that the Reverend Mali nowski would even be prepared to either assist or to bless the employees who will undertake the project. But I would just rec ommend that to the Min ister, that the lin es need painting. it's a small thing, but would he see that this Is done? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I understand that some are done each year and they kind of rotate over a couple of years to have them all done.

But If there Is a need for accelerating that pace, I'm sure we can arrange to have that done. I just want to mention the total parking in the legislative area from the figures that we've finally got added up here. Before the construction of the Law Courts Building there were 1, 090 spots in the legislative area. During construction there was 1,093, an additional three; even though we lost those spots, there were other areas as I mentioned earlier, that came on stream. After construction there will be 1, 179. So there will be a total of about 90 spots additional after everything has been completed. MR. R.

DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I was also wondering whether the department had any recent discussions to provide a parking structure In the area south of the convention centre or whether there have been any discussions with the Winnipeg Convention Centre in terms of encouraging the government to build a parking structure which would be connected to the Winnip eg Convention Centre, which is now celebrating a 10th anniversary; or whether they have also approached the government In terms of purchasing. Has there been a discussion to even purchase that provincial property for any extension of the Winnip eg Convention Centre?

Have there been any disc ussions along those lines? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there has been some interest by the convention centre. I believe about two years ago there was a study approved under Destination Manitoba for funding of a program for an analysis of what might be done. lt's very valuable property, as the member knows, and I personally would not like to see it confined to a parking structure. I think there is much more potential for it.

We should at the appropriate time, we have been looking at it as to whether we should enter Into an agreement for a lease purchase kind of arrangement with a developer in that area, but I would see it being much more than just a parking structure, obviously integrated with perhaps a hotel and office requirement facilities. · So there's that kind of thinking going on, but certainly not any plans at the present time to actually construct a parking structure by itself on that very valuable property. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, what I am suggesting isn't at odds with what the Min ister is saying. it's quite 2315

Monday, "Z1 May, 1985 possible to design and build a structure which is parking in the lower levels and other purposes above, hotel or convention centre, etc. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: I don't want to jump all over the place, so I have a question regarding parking. The Minister will recall about a month ago, I offered him a ride over to the convention centre and I said to him at the time that it occurs fairly often to members of the Legislature where they are asked to attend a function that's on at the convention centre.

So often it's in the day time when you're rushing over to a luncheon meeting or even a good example was when the convention centre itself celebrated their 10 th anniv ersary and they had a formal program at 10: 00 a.m. one morning. If it could be made possible that some limited parking for members of the Legislature while they're going to functions at the convention centre, represe nting their constituents or represen ting the government in the case of the Minister, could be made available to members.

I don't say that parking stalls should be kept just for members, but perhaps staff people who leave their offices fairly early in the morning and then they're gone in their endeavours and their particular style of work for the government, that those stalls could be used perhaps during the day through the commissionaire who operates the lot and they could be made available for an hour or two-hour periods of time, and I don't mean for the whole day.

But there is a comm issionaire on there and he has, over my last 10 years, gotten to know me and usually will find me a place that he knows that someone is away for most of the day. But I think maybe if one or two could be made available on those basis, it might be worthwhile. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I recall the conversation that we had on this matter.

We can certainly assess as to the requirement for it and the justification of a spot. lt should be done, I think, in a flexible way as the member has indicated because with the dif ficulties for parking and the pressures there for other empl oyees, it is very important that we do not tie up more spaces than we have to. But we'll look at asse ssing the need for it. I know there is a need from time to time. it's a matter of how we apply it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, while we're still on parking, there are a few servants of this Legislature who work extraordinary hours, and I'm ref erring to the girls that work in the production of our daily Hansard, who normally work until three or four o'clock in the morning. I know when I was Speaker of the House there was a problem with parking, where a person leaving this building very late at night and their car is parked a considerable distance away, and the lighting around here is not that great, we have to be concerned about the security of our staff.

I was wondering if the Minister would give consideration to parking spots that are close and well lit giving double use, say a Deputy Minister's stall being given to the staff of Hansard who are leaving this building at very late hours in the evening or morning. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the only difficulty I could see there, if there was some overlap in the time it might present a problem there. We can look at that.

I think it's a worthwile suggestion; it's a matter of whether the other cars have obviously left before these people come to work, and if they don't maybe there's even a way to have them go out and move their cars into those spots in the daylight hours, instead of waiting until the middle of the night when they get off work. There might be some way to do that, but we'd have to look at whether there is an overlap there that might cause a problem. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I raise it because I know now there is an inf ormal relation where they are allowed to park in a no-parking spot immediately in front of the building, but that in itself can cause some problems. So I would ask the Minister to consider, as a priority, the safety of the staff who are leaving here at very late hours, or the early hours of the morning, and making sure that either we provide adequate lighting, and maybe even we should consider limited access to these buildings. I know we used to put chains across some of the driveways, but that doesn't seem to be happening any more.

But it is a concern for the safety of those staff and I would ask the Minister to give it a fairly high priority in his agenda. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I certainly appreciate the suggestions by the honourable member and we can look at the matter of lighting and of course the matter of closer parking. I just want to mention, in terms of the chains across some of the entrances, there is no change in policy with regard to those. They have been away being repaired or painted or some thing, but that has been comple ted and they should be out there now in the evenings. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights.

MR. W. STEEN: To the Minister, what is the policy regard ing chaining off the different approaches to the Legislative Building? What hour do the various approaches get blocked off? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The hours that used to be, and if there hasn't been any change, and I understood that there isn't, it would be 10 o'clock in the evening until six in the morning -all except Broadway and that is open all the time, )he Broadway entrance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) -the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, when we're dealing with the general field of Property Management, I was wondering if it's possible if the Minister could provide us, not at the present time, but hopefully for this ev ening, with a list of all the properties where the government leases space -the name of the property , the owner 2316

Monct.y. XI MaJ, 1985 and the amount of rent that Is paid per square foot, rather than the total amount, on a square footage basis. Is it possible to have that list for this evening? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think most of the information is available, except the cost per square metre on the printout that we have; otherwise, we have a list of all of the properties in the client department, the owner of the building, leased premises, street address and landlord of each of those, the department tha t's occupying the space, the total amount of space that Is being occupied, the lease term and the expiry date for the lease.

Now, I don't know whether we give out all of that information regarding the terms, leases and expiry dates and all of the addresses and everything of the individual landlords as public information. I'd have to take that as notice, but we could provide most of it. Certain ly, if there are certain aspects of it that should not be released publi cly, I would like to check that. I have no personal problem with providing that information, but I think it's imp ortant to protect perhaps the confidentiality of the owners of the buildings, but I'll certainly consider having that.

We have the prin tout for all of the buildings and all of the leases certainly. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the affairs of government are public information and I would think that it would certainly fall within the realm of propriety to have all of that Information available. I would begin to become suspicious if the Min ister would not want all of that information released. I would like to know why he would not want all of that Information released because it falls in the public domain and I think it is in the public interest . HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I think the major concern I would have would be with the various rates, certainly it's a matter of business practice and if we have succeeded in negotiating a rather lower rate in a particular area, that's not something that that particular individual would like his competitors to know about, the exact rate that he's leasing it for, that kind of thing. So there might be some limits to that as to when it's in the best interest, or when the interests of the owners of the buildings are being protected and when they're not, and the impli cations of doing that. That's my only concern.

We could alter maybe the demand for the information without identifying specific owners, or without going into as muc h detail on the actual per square foot rental rate which might be in force at a particular time. lt certainly varies from lease to lease a great deal depending on the situation, the negotiation steps that the particular individual takes, and the requirements that are there for government In a particular area, and whether they need the space, the availability of space In a particular area. As the member knows, there could be quite a variance.

I guess what I'd really like to know is what purpose the member of the opposition would have for wanting all of this information, as to what purp ose it would serve? MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, it is our responsibility to examine the operations of this department to see whether or not they have made good deals in the public interest and, if we are going to be denied that information, then how are we going to be able to assess whether or not this Mini ster and his department Is acting In the public interest for the public of the province? 1 think it is information that we should, as opposition members, have access to so that we can look at it and see whether or not this Min ister is acting in the public Interest and making good deals on behalf of the people of Manitoba. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I guess, Mr. Chairman, we could cer tainly provide the global information that would be very helpful In terms of the overall lease accommodations in the province, but I think even the rates per square foot would vary so much because of the different conditions attached to each lease as to whether the kinds of services that are included in that lease would change the value, so it would be rather difficult to compare one with the other as to whether it was a triple net lease or not and so on.

So there is a number of considerations there. lt certainly would be very difficult to compare apples with apples anyway at any rate without going without going into a lot of detail as to exactly what was provided for In that lease. So I don't see the particular value that one could make in terms of comparing one with another one in a particular area, and of course would vary from area to area in the province and that kind of thing. I wouldn't mind providing a list of the total leased space and of the locations that we have leased space and who's using it and all kind of thing. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I can get that information except for the square footage, a lease rate. The total amount paid I can get already, but it will take me weeks and weeks of work, but it's all available In Public Accounts. So the information is available already, but it isn't in a concise form. So it's not a matter of whether the information should be released, it is already released, but it's only in a lump sum form. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, on the computer printout that we have, we have all of the leases and the total square feet, the loca tion, the occupant, and so on; we don't have the cost per square foot and the total cost for each of those. The member Is right. This information is compiled, that I have in my hands here this computer printout, for Public Accounts and therefore is certainly public Information.

The details with regard to the actual cost per square foot and the total dolla rs paid are not Included In this information and would be very cum bersome and time consuming to actually add that to this, but we could certainly supply the member with this information, if he wanted to ask particular questions on it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Yes, another question of the Mini ster and again for this evening, has the Min ister a separate list dealing with Manitoba Properties Incorporated, or is that all involved in this one list? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, there is a separate list because those are owned properties, and 2317

Monday, 27 May, 1985 this is leased properties. So there are two separate lists involved and we do have a separate list for all properties that are included under MPI. MR. H. GRAHAM: That list will be made available, too? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have a list of all the government-owned buildings that are included under MP I, leased by us from MP I, and their addresses and we can supply that information to the member. We'll get copies made of it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The lists that we'll have are those that are currently being transferred under MPI.

There may be others, but that hasn't been compiled in detail yet -additional buildin gs -but these are the first list of buildings that will be included up to this point. They are complete. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that information and we'll look forward to that over the supper hour so we can have an opportunity to peruse it. In the meantime, we have a rather extensive expenditure under Workshop and Renovations. Can the Mini ster give us a further breakdown on that particular sect ion? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The majority of that expenditure, Mr. Chairman, is for Salaries.

As the mem ber can see, there are 82 staff years in that sect ion and that Is the major source of expenditure. The Worksh op/ Renovations

section prov ides the in-house construct ion and renovation program for government-owned and leased accom modations; and provides construction and renovation services; mi llwork and furniture repair services, for various departments; supports both the employee housing and property management divisions, their maintenance programs as required; and supervises subcontract work on jobs at locations throughout the province. About 50 to 60 percent of the work is subcontracted and then wherever it is more efficient, we use our own staff.

They are util ized for small jobs, where it would be less efficient to engage a private contr actor. There has been some reductions over the years in this area but not this past year, the staff years are exactly the same. But there has been a substantia l reduction over the last, I believe, five years In the total num ber of staff there. So we are attempting to do more in that area with fewer people and to provide more of the work for the private sector. MR. H. GRAHAM: These salaries and wages, would they all be classed as term employees?

You said you did a lot of subcontract work, about 60 percent was under subcontract, would they still be classed as term employees? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They are only for the supervision; it's our permanent staff that are supervising, maybe the member misunderstood. The 50 to 60 percent of the work is contracted out and therefore po government staff years are involved, except for supervision of the proj ect from the government's Inte rests being protect ed. MR. H. GRAHAM: So the 60 percent of the work being done does not appear in this appropriation at all. This is just the supervisory. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's it.

No, this reflects the actual workshop for 40 percent of the total work that's done; 40 to 50 percent of the total work that's undertaken. Renovations are done by in-house staff and that's what we're talking about here, and part of them are term staff, I understand, and casual staff who are hired for peak periods and when the need is greatest. MR. H. GRAHAM: When you said 60 percent of the work Is contracted out, the employees on that job, would they come unde r the construc tion /labour

schedule of wages? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We don't have any particular jurisdiction or requirements under our own act and department with regard to what they pay their employees. Obviously, they have to conform to their colle ctive agreements of the province, but there is no special requirements Im posed on them through Government Services. MR. H. GRAHAM: If there was a renovation project , for instance, as there has been, an extensive one, at the Provincial Archives Building, which also falls within Winnipeg, would the standard of pay conform to the Greater Winnipeg construction pay schedule? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, that's my understanding, that's a major renovation job. A contractor has the work and he is perfor min g it unde r the same circums tances and controls as everyone else Is doing in construction work In the city. MR. H. GRAHAM: And the term employees that the department has, would they also fall under the same

schedule of payment of wages? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, they are paid according to the MGEA Agreement. W hether it's the same, or more, or less, I am not cert ain at this time, but they are obviously civil servants and paid under the MGEA Agreement. MR. H. GRAHAM: Even though they are only hired temporarily for one job or a six-month term? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They are paid acc ording to the classification that they have been categorized into. it really depends on what is outlined and specified in the MGEA Agreement' as to what their benefits and pay is.

I can get details of that, but that's the governing force as far as the term staff under this section. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well then, it is entirely possible, and even highly probable, that we could have government emplo yees work ing on a project together with contractors' employees, and they would be coming under different pay sch edules admini stered by another 2318

department of government, the Department of Labour, that requires a standard of wages that is set that would be fairly uniform. Is that right? HON . .1. PLOHMAN: Well, it's possible that that could happen. In most cases, of course, there are separate jobs where, other than supervisory jobs, the people that are working on renovation jobs for the govern ment, the government employees, are usually of a smaller nature and it's not usually the case that government employees would be working on the same job where there is a contract let.

However, it may happen from time to time and, obviously, they are governed by the MGEA Agreement, the civil servants. The others, as the mem ber has stated, are regulated through the labour laws or their own collective agreement, which Is a good point. MR. H. GRAHAM: Labour laws specifically elCclude government, govern ment employees do not come under that; is that right? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The labour laws, as the member knows, are there to set minimum requirements in most cases, and collect