Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, June 8, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 26 ..... , ... . ,

June 8. 1972 · The House resmned at 8:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Tape 621 JM - 1 On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker.left the Chair. HEADING V - PROVIJqCIAL AFFAIRS: HONOURABLE A.J. MURPHY(MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL A~TD LABI0J)OR AFFAIRS)_: Mr. Chairman, if I may before we get into the item by item discussion I would i rn~t like to make a s·hort statement with reference to the Department of Provincial Affairs.

The department is not one of the huge spending departments of this government nevertheless it is responsible for the administration of over fiftv acts. It has a total staff of seventy-three persons. The department is responsible for the administration of acts dealing with 1 for example, the Barbers and Hair Dressers, Shop Closing Act, Consmner Affairs and all types of consumer legislation. Some of the minor functions of the department are preparin~ proclamations, official documents, change of name, registration of companies, Nomenclature Act, commission of parole and so on and so forth.

The main functions of the department are the administration of emergency measures, consumers affairs, historic sites, archives, museums, arts and culture centres at St. John's, Corner Brook, Grand Falls and Gander. You will observe from the estimates that the Emergency Measures Division will be voted a gross amount of $141,700 rluring the current financial year. This amount is broken down into various subheads and we will get to that when the items arrived. I would just like to say that of this amount 875,000 is directly contributed by Ottawa.

While·we are on Emergency Measures, Sir, there is one thing I would like to clear up, in fairness to our Director of the Emergency Measures Organization and that is the publicity that 1921 ....

June 8, 1972 Tape 621 JM - 2 was taking place in our papers for some time with reference to a young man falling over a cliff at Topsail. There was a lot of propaganda spread. I will not call it propaganda but perhaps publicity given,that were not the actual facts. So I got my director to just give me the facts as they were according to the knowledge of the department. Although the accident occurred before noon on that day the Emergency Measures _Organization was not summoned until twenty minutes to five in the afternoon. A rescue team was at the site j_n twenty minutes.

The vehicle, a four wheel drive, was fu.llv equipped in all respects to handle this type of emer?,ency. The time taken to bring the bov down is considered reasonable in the light of the difficult nature of the task. }Te was placed in the ambulance at eight o'clock and conveyed to the city hospital. So basically instead of the ten hours that were stated, that took place between the time Emergency Measures were summoned and the actual rescue it was only from five o'clock to about eight o'clock, a matter of three hours. Of course there were other people as~istinr,,the RCMP and so on and so forth.

But I would like in fairness to EMO to state the facts as they occurred. Some of the work we proposed to do during the current year: we are going to proceed with the restoration of St. Thomas' Rectory which is a cost~shared programme with Ottawa, the Federal authorities contributing $157,000 on this particular project. This was a very old building that · I think was called a commissary built somewhere in 1819 and 1922

June 8, 1972 Mr, Murphy, Tape no. 622 Page 1 - MRW lt is tied in with the Fort William Fort, where the Newfoundland Hotel is now built, It will be a very historic and I think a wonderful attraction for tourists visiting St, John's. The Cable Museum at Heart's Content is well underway, There are several people who are doing a tremendous job for us on this, veterans of the Western Union Company. I would just like to acknowledge here our thanks to them: Mr. Smith, Mr, Mackey, Mr. Star, Mr, Rowe, Mr, Randell and Mr, Parrott.

I may say, Sir, that some of the equipment used at Heart's Content is now on loan to the Smithsonian Institute in Washington because it is the only equipment of its kind at present in the world. It is on use and when this Heart's Content thing is finished it will be brought back.

They are also going to do more work on the Bonavista Lighthouse, as it is as well an historical exhibit, The Newfoundland Museum on Duckworth Street,which we had hoped to restore to some sort of a passable condition, is unfortunately going to cost an awful lot more than we anticipated because there has to be a full-wiring system done there. There is some money voted to begin that work, I would just like to pass a compliment to the Archives which has reconditioned the Old Colonial Building on Military Road. I think it is a credit to them the job they have done, They have almost completely renovated the building.

I would like to invite any of the members to visit the place, A few weeks ago we were honoured to have His Honour the Lieutenant Governor visit the Archives and spend an hour and a-half or so there. He was very complimentary. There are preser ved some of the oldest documents that you will find anywhere perhaps in North America and anybody for research - I think it is used quite frequently by students at Memorial University, _AN HON. MEMBER: <Inaudible) MR. MURPHY: The office is still there, I think,

June 8, 1972 MR, MURPHY. . Tape no, 622 Page 2 The Arts and Culture Centres are working out very well. In the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's there were 179 public performances and with an attendance of something over 152,000, _AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: There are no clowns over there otherwise,if there is an opening, I will let the honourable member know, There are also 250,000 persons who visited libraries during the year, adults and childrens.

There was one great disappointment and that is the Grand Falls Public Building in Grand Falls where we had hoped to establish some type of a museum, We have one exhibit in the Observation Tower. There were as far as we were told two rooms reserved on the Fourth Floor, I say this for the benefit of the Grand Falls people. We were under the impression that the past member for Grand Falls had told us that there would be a room available for this great Beothuck Village, Unfortunately,to our sorrow, we discovered that there was only one room available on that Fourth Floor and this is used for exhibits.

There was a second one that we thought we could get. Public Works say no because it was for some other purpose. There are some exhibits in one room on the Fourth Floor but there is another one across the hall that we understood was to be the Beothuck Village one, and we were getting the exhibits ready, Now we discover from Public Works that it was never designed for it. It is vacant and they are doing it up for som~ department of government at the present time. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) · _MR. MURPHY: No not the public building, that is Public Works. AN HON. MEMBER: (lnaudible) MR.

MURPHY: This is the public building, not the Arts and Culture Centre in Grand Falls I am referring to. 1924

June 8, 1972. Tape 623. Page 1. Perhaps one of the things - one is operated by Public Works and one by the Provincial Affairs. I am just stating the facts that we were under the impression from the past government that this room would be available but we find it is not, There is perhaps one item here I would refer to, when we would get into any questions may be asked, that is the Book of Remembrance I think this was commissioned some few years a~o, to record all the names I believe of Newfoundlanders killed in the two World Wars and the Korean War. We are hoping to finish that book this year.

There will be - This is a government book. They are hoping to present that Book this year. Then ·an Altar of Rememberance is going to he erected in the lobby and a copy of this Book will be placed there for visitors.

So, basically these are just a few of the items that will come up, Wheri anybody has any questions,if I cannot give them the answers I will certainly look them up, MR.ROBERTS: Mr, Chairman, the Minister has very fully outlined everything that the department does, He, himself says it is not one of the action departmen~ in the Government really, It does some very useful work, but it certainly is not one of the departments that affects Newfoundlanders in every nook and cranny.

He did not touch on one item, I can either raise it here or later,as the honourable gentle- man wishes, but 1it is one in which I have a personal interest, also one that affects my constituency in White Bay North, the north side of Lance aux Meadows. of course Now, the last I recall or .the last impression I had before I left office was that the Government of the Province were ne~otiating with the Government of Canada with a view to the Government of Canada taking over the site, reall,Y because they are the only people who can and will develop it properly.

They are the only people who have the financial resources, When I tell Your Honour that the estimated cost of developing it is several millions of dollars over a period of years, I know the Committee will understand that the Province,really it will 1925 ..... ,

June 8, 1972. Tape 623. Page 2. be a long time before I would think the Province would · have that sort of money available. In addition, of course, the Government of Canada, the Historic Sites and Objects Division, do have very skilled personnel both in their employ and available on a consultant basis. So, it was agreed, in principle at least, that the property would be transferred, The last information I had, indeed, this was last summer or early last fall, the officials concerned, I think probably the deputy-minister of Provincial Affairs and the director of Historic Sites, Mr.

Disher on the side of Newfoundland, Mr. Peter Bennett and - a number of officials on the Ottawa side were haggling back and forth over the boundaries and so forth. Indeed when the Prime Minister visited L'Anse aux Meadows this summer he had been briefed quite fully, He and I haggled, I hope as a result I persuaded Ottawa to take over another couple of miles of road. We flew over in a helicopter about twenty-five feet off the ground, you know, sort of tapping the fellow on the shoulder or the p~lot and saying 1 left at the next house.

The Prime Minister did not mind it but I am afraid that Madame Trudeau would not want to do that every day, she was five months :1regn:mt at the time, I think she had more enjoyable trips during her visit to Newfoundland. in any event the Prime Minister was quite familiar with it. I have l;eard nothing since, except for the press reports and mv own private reports of the nntour1ge which went to St. Anthony a fortnight or so ago, I believe .the Minister was there and three or four other ministers because of course Mr. Chairman, no one minister is allowed out alon~ with this administration.

A raft of officials from Ottawa I think, they have this consultant board. There was a report in the Telegram 1 1~Eveninr, Telegnim" of t:fay 20, But the cons11ltant board including the [nr,stads Mr. Sverree Marstrander, Dr. Ole - Crumlin - Pederson, of Denmark, Martin Stenberger, formerly of Oslo, in Sweden. Peter Bennett, Patrick Thompson, Dr. Leslie 1926

June 8, 1972. Tape 623. Page 3. Harris, about to become the Dean of Arts at 1MemoriaJ . 1 ,rnnder if the minister could tell us where it stands? This is, leav og as i de the tourist implicatio ns which are subRtantia l, this is by far the most import ant historic site i n the Province, or for that mat ter in North America because it is the first recorded evidence, there is no doubt it is genuine. It is too bad Mr, Barbour is not here, a former member fr om Bonavista South, he would have, he would make his, the mi n:Lster have heard this speech many times. Mr. Barbour would once again tell us that John Cabot landed at Jlo11avista, Well he might• Well he might - 1927 ·-~-

JUne 8, 1972 Tape 624 (night) PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: But whelher or nul he landed there, Lhe Nurse people did come to L'Anse-au-Meadows in about 1000 A.D. plus or minus, the carbon fourteen people tests tell us plus or.minus about fifty years. I do not know if it was Lief Ericson or Lief the Lucky, it really does not matter. They were Norse people and they spent a year or so there. I have not figured why they called it Vineland, althought I am told not a tree grows on Greeland but apparently the entire continent or subcontinent of Greenland has not got a tree or a bush on it.

Indeed one of the theories as to what happened to the Norse civilization in Greenland is that they literally ran out of wood1 had no vessels and thus perished there in Greenland, As the mi~ister knows,and I am sure he has involved himself with the literature which is extensive both in English and Norwegian, I have no idea what is in any other language, you will have to take my word about the Norwegian.

The Norse people disappeared in Greenland.The last recorded voyage was about 1352, some bishop from Norway or Iceland visited Greenland and that was the last contact with the people there, The whole civilization just disappeared, nobodr to this day is sure what did happen to them. The archaeological remains are there. Dr.

Stenberger who was with the honourable gentleman in L'Anse-au-Meadows recently was one of the men who excavated the homesteads in Greenland, both in the Western settlement and in the Northern settlement, the two Norse settlements in Greenland, one at the tip, Cape Farewell,! think it Js, the southern tip and the other up in the Davis Straits, up towards the Davis Straits.

So maybe the minister could tell us a little about where it stands.The - last I heard the officials were haggling and it was literally haggling over 1 there were five or six families living on Bleak Point in L''·Anse-au-Meadows and there was some question as to whether they had to be moved or not and if so who would bear the responsibility and so forth. I think it is a subject of interest and the minister may have some information that he can give the committee, 1928

June 8, 1972 Tape 624 (night) PK - 2 MR, MURPHY: --- --- I would be only too happ y , Mr , Chairman, but it is not in my estimates and possibly I did miss that,as a couple of other federal projects, you know. As the honourable Lead€r of the Opposition has said I had visited the site some two and a-half weeks ago, I believe. There were some very distinguished people there including the Tngstads of course who are the prime movers in the thing I believe and representatives of the different museums in Sweden, Norway so on and so forth. Some of the press were there, We did visit the site, We chatted with Mr.

Decker, who I think is the custodian. The remains were covered, there was a lot of snow at the time, we had shoveled out and shoveled off, it was completely covered actual°ly. So for this occasion, I think three wPeks before they employed . something like eighteen or twenty men to dig out, you know, so that we could visit it and on Saturday they had a specia~ day of prayer, the Saturday preceding it and they had another snowfall so that called for another eighteen men to go to work, so their prayer was answered. But basically there was great interest in the whole thing.

There is one great worry and I think the honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware of this, this flooding on that lower part of the remains. But there was a meeting the next day of the group and Dr, Leslie Harris is the Newfoundland representative on this group with some other federal people.

So we are hoping that they did arrive at the decision to come and take the thing over because it . is, as the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has said again, one of the most important times, I th:i.nk the date given,and there is an abridged issue of"National Geographic" on this, I think it was very,very good.It gave the whole story on this. We have some copies down in the office, if anybody is interested, you know, they can have it. But I think it was 988 approximately was the date they were suppose to settle there. 1929 f."

June 8, 1972 Ta.pe 624 (night) PK - 3 MR. MURPHY: But basically it is an on-going thing and we are certafoly hopin g and my Deputy Minister who has been in the middle of this thing for a great many years is certainly looking forward to hearing from the group at Ottawa and their decision becauae it is something that we would want to have settled as soon as we could. I think the honourable Leader of the Opposition referred to a couple of homes that wer e there and this sot:t of infers with the view of the whole area and there may have to 1930

June 8, 1972 . Tape 625 be a couple of families I think that is out on that point . AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible, NB - 1 MR. MURPHY: So, I think negotiations will be taken place on this particular thing. So, basically, there is not too much more that I can add, but it is an ongoing lively meetings being held on the thing. MR. ROBERTS: From what the minister says. Mr.

Chairman, I take it we are to conclude that negotiations have been on-~oin? say,they were on their way, they are on their way,indeed I venture to say and I hope that we could settle it because the flooding is, not a new problem, We had engineers look at it five or six years ago, I remember going down there one fall day with David Webber, who was then Director of Historic Sites, or Museumologists or something with the government. The estimate was several hundred thousand dollars merely to correct this flood situation, A brook runs right down through the site.

It has been flooding every year for the past nine hundred years and has not swept away yet but one of these years it will. MR. MURPHY: One

part I think was under two or three feet of water. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, there were probably some of the sites under - ice forms up in the brook up near a pond, Of course the really intriguing thing, Mr. Chairman. the minister maybe will at another time in the House bring us up to date on it, Ottawa are set to take it over. It is just a matter of settling the boundary and they are anxious to get in there and spend some money, I got all sorts of constituents who are anxious to go to work on the project, of course.

The intriguing thought and I will leave the matter with this because other members of the committee are not, I fear, as interested in the north site as I am. There must be other north sites in Newfoundland. The way in which Helge Ingstad, his wife is Dr. Ingstad, Anne Stien,the way in which the In~stad's found the L'Anse-au-Meadow's site is a triumph of deductive logic, of deductive reasoning, because Dr. Ingstad took the Sagas. the Norse Sagas,, Perhaps the Minister of Education is familiar with some of them, Well a long time ago>in the early fifties, I 1931 , --.•

June 8, 1972 Tape -625 NB - 2 am sorry, the early part of the century,Vaino Tannor's book on Labrador has references as well. But, Dr. Ingstad took the Sagas which are in effect sailing directions, brought a small boat and followed the route and decided that Helluland was the lower Labrador. I think at Cape Porcupine there is a long sandy beach that - is it Cape Porcupine? AN HON MEMBER: The Cartwright area. MR. ROBERTS: Right.

Then Markland, the land of the flat stones is the Northern Labrador up north of Nain, I think, because the Norse people went up, they never went out of sight of land as Your Honour recalls from Your Honour's studies of the subject. They went up ~he west coast of Greenland within sight of land crossed over the Davis Straits, which are very narrow at the point between Baffin Island or Northern LabradorJ came down the coast. The Ingstad's decided that L'Anse-au-Meadow's had to be somewhere in Northern Newfoundland, So they sort of drifted around a bit. The IGA, Dr.

Thomas and the people at St, Anthony helped them and eventually went ashore with George Decker. Lloyd's father was there and held a talk-in and they asked, "Do you know of any old sites around here?' 1They said that there are some Indian sites over here and pointing to some mounds that the Ingstad' s dug and it was a Norse Site, The poin't I am making is that there must be other Norse Sites. I think the Minister should think about trying to get some investigations done again. It is not urgent. It is like the Hansards, it is not a matter that ,;,cl.11 ~ramatically affect the lives of Newfoundlanders.

But, Sir, if we believe in this Province, if we believe in its heritage, we should try-to preserve it and to find out just what it is. So, I am disappointed that the minister cannot give us a report, but I can understand it, If he perhaps at some later point bring!. the House up to date. It is a matter of i932

June 8, 1972, Tape 626, Page 1 -- apb Night considerable interest through large parts of constituency and I think to a large number of people in the island and elsewhere. J.1R. MURPHY: I will check with my deputy in the mornfop;. If there is any more correspondence since the meeting held here I will ••• MR. ROBERTS: Well, or even correspondence - the last I saw were letters exchanged between Dr. Frecker and the hon. J.J.Chretien in Ottawa o~ whoever the federal minister is. MR. MURPHY: Did we have a letter from the hon. member on that about a month ago? MR.

ROBERTS: Oh yes, it has not been answered but I know it is being worked on. · ~_ylJRPH'(_: _ I see, I see. My deputy minister showed it to me and I thought you had been brought up to that point. MR. ROBERTS: No • ~ . MURPHY: Ol, I see. NR. ROBERTS: But I know the deputy minister has many things on his mind, so the minister perhaps at some point could - It is not so vital. It is not so shattering. Then again, many of the things in Provincial Affairs are not, but it does not make them any the less valuable or any the less worthy of attention by the committee.

There are a lot of things the committee talk about in the course of the estimat~s. Not all of them are as important as other things, as some of the items in the estimates. Members of the committee should become interested in all of those t~ings. There are hundreds of historic sites in Newfoundland. There are the archaic and Dorset sites in the Twillingate District. It is too bad my friend from St. Barbe South is not here, but up in the Hawkes Bay - Port aux Choix Area - Oh I am sorry, he is over with the Premier. l-1R • '!-IURPHY: That is another one that is being worked on now. MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, there is quite a story there of the archaic and Dorset sites. Dr. Jim Tuck of the university has done a lot of work on them. There are more Norse sites in Newfoundland,so forth and so on. All of 1933 . ....

June 8, 1972, Tape 626, Page 2 -- apb · Night. them should be looked into, all of them are as important as the Heart's Content Museum, the Harbour Grace Museum, the ·St. Tbomas'Rectory which •.• MR. MURPHY: I guess they will be, but these things are perhaps easier to get at at this time. If we let them go for a few years they are gone too, so ••• MR. ROBERTS: Another thing the minister might look at that always perplexes me,are the cannon, the old cannon which are all over Newfoum'lland. I have seen mans with hundreds of them on it and there :l.s a law protecting them. I do not know the name of the Act, Mr.

Speaker; but I can remember a number of years ago the late Guy Earle from r.arbonear, a man of commanding stature, went out to Carbonear Island and raised a number of the cannon and was ~oing to move them in. There was a considerable racket because these belonged to the province and eventually Mr. Earle conceded the point. The Cannon, it is very interesting, they are in the salt water and they last forever apparently, in the salt water. f-!R.. MURPHY: I think there are some in the Ferryland Area too. ~-=-~OBERT_s_:_ There are great numbers, some of them raised at Isle du Bois. and some up in St. }fary' s.

There are hundreds of them around the island, There are seven in Quirpon Harbour in White Ray North and nobody knows how they gotthere. One was raised by the people there,but mostly the thing went to sponge within a matter of weeks.upon exposure to air. I spoke to the chemist later and he said it was a chemical process·of oxidation depending - under water they do not rust qut,as I would have thought they did. When they are raised they must be preserved and treated carefully.

There is a ship in Sweden, the hon. minister might step along and look at it the ~Vasa'' which capsized in Stockholm Harbour in sixteen twenty - on its maiden voyage. It just went under and three or four hundred men drowned. It was raised about ten years ago. The only one - all the ship archeologists are delighted with it because it is the only example of a seventeenth century warship that has ever been found 1934

June 8, 1972, Tape 626, Page 3 -- apb Night . complete. She :1,s st;lU underwater,.$he is in a great big bath and they ha:v-e to spray it with chemicals, because if the air gets at it it will just crumple. The same was true of these cannons, bu.t there should be more steps taken to protect them and again, it is something I would ask the minister to have a look at. I know the hon. minister has a lot to do, but these things are important and ••• MR. MtlRPHY: Basica11y it is not that you have a lot to do, b11t it re(1Uires certain awns of money which we are hoping to put forward,,. MR.

ROBERTS: I know only too well that hardhearted Ministers of Finance look at things like Provincial ftffairs Estimates,! notice, with considerable - well I can understand it but I am upset that the acquisitions vote wherever it is, 531-01-04, is down from $26,000 to $1,000 this year. That is a shame because, unless we can apply our objects, but I can understand - hardhearted treasury boards and finance ·officials and finance ministers, these are the things 'that get cut

whereas 1935

June 8, 1972 Tape 627 JM - 1 such things like short-tenn assistance are basically uncutable, you know what ever must be must be but it is too bad and I hope another year the minister will have better luck when it comes to his appearing before the mandarins of the treasury board when they offer up his soul as sacrifice. I think that is pretty well it. There may be a number of detailed questions.

My colleague from Twillingate is watching it carefully but I think up until now it has been a matter that provincial affairs has done so. little this year to require any comrnent1 in their wisdom carrying on the policies set by the pr:-vious administration which by and large are nonpartisan. I mean this is not one of the political departments that I know of especially now that the 'Bulletin" is gone. The honourable pentleman has axed the 'Bulletin" removed it. I think that is probably the one vote in here that there was ever any real partisan debate upon and Lord knows there was enough of that.

Well, from now on the 11 Bulletin 11 appears in the Pre.mier's office under the guise of the Newfoundland Information Service and so if we are going to go after it partisanly ~e will do it on that head. But I do thank the minister for his introduction. He might tell us as well, Mr. Chainnan, a little about; I do not see an item here for the Grand Bank Arts and Culture Centre - MR. MURPHY: Yes, there j s a heading -there. MR. ROBERTS: Is there? I have missed it then. Oh yes, I am sorry, it is up in the museums. Thank you, Mr. Chainnan, I would be interested if he would tell us a little about how that is coming on.

That is to be a fishennan's museum in honour of the men from the foot of the Burin Peninsula,or the bankers whether they came from Grand Bank or Burin or up in Fortune ·Bay or further west along the South Coast or no matter where. Also on the St. John's museum there has been a long-standing plan of the officials in 1936

June 8, 1972 . Tape 627 JM - 2 Provincial Affairs,and I assume it is still standing, to build a new museum or a museum because, of course, the museum has been the orphan ever since Commission when the collections were destroyed and lost. Has the minister any thoughts on that? There is nothing in the estimates and I can understand it in the year when mother's allowances are being cut and kids cannot get into university and so forth, it is not the year to build museums. But has the minister any thoughts on it?

He ~ presumably will be in office for a couple of years and I think we would be interested at this stage in knowing the sorts of programmes and policies that he is going to try to achieve during his term of office. When I say a couple of years, I mean the administration is good in all probability for three or four years, I do know,you know the Premier will decide,as Premier's are that way,but I assume the minister will have a long and happy tenure down there. MR. -~~HY: I have not received my pink slip yet so I figure I am good for another week. ~ ~ ~BERT~: Well, if Mr.

Jim Green were here oink slips are a very funny subject with him going back to the 1962 election, was it not? MR. MURPHY: I should not be using Liberal language, I gues~. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I mean the honourable gentleman need not worry about a pink slip. If I were Premier, Sir, I would keep him on. There is a vote here that covers him, It is called historic sites. Anyway the minister may want to say a few words about, I am particularly interested in the museum. MR. MURPHY: On that one, Sir, basically and I did not - I am sorry. MR.

NEARY: ------- Before the minister answers the questions asked by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to raise a matter. As a matter of fact I thought the Leader of the Opposition would raise this because it is the obvious question to put to the Minister of Provincial Affairs, But the minister,rightly so, did not mention the -1937

June 8, 1972 Tape 627 .TM - 3 "Newfoundland Bulletin"in his introductory remarks because the''Newfoundland Bulletin"has been dropped and there is no - MR. MURPHY: It is not in the estimates. I do not talk about things that are not in the estimates. We could be here for three years talking about things that are not in my estimates. MR. NEARY: Allocation,but the obvious - AN HON. MEMBER:We expect to be here for three years. MR. MURPHY: On that particular suh.1 ect? AN HON • J,fEMBER : Yes. MR. NEARY: The obvious question to ask the _honourable min:l.ster, Mr.

Chairman, and the minister put this in my mind when he talked about pink slips. Members of the House will recall that no sooner had this administration taken office when two very fine and respected Newfoundlanders were given their pinks.lips in the most brutal and ruthless fashion that I have ever seen in my ten years, eleven years in this House of Assembly. I refer, Mr. Chairman, to the firing of Jack Fitzgerald and Bob Cousins. It seems to me, Sir, that the minister gave a very flimsy reason, a verv flimsy excuse at the time for getting rid of these two honourable r,entlemen.

I would like to ask the m:1.nister now,in all conscience, we are on his estimates, if he still thinks that he was right in dropping the axe on the skull of these two fine Newfoundlanders or if he would reconsider or if they have any recourse to processing their grievances under NAPE? Mr. Chairman, I do not know how the honourable minister sleeps at night. MR. MURPHY: Do not get a wink. MR. NEARY: I do not know how he sleeps at night. MR. MURPHY: I do not get a wink of sleep with all the tragedies - MR. NEARY: The honourable minister professes to be so sanctimonious, so sanctimoni·ous, Mr. Chairman.

In a brutal fashion put a man out in 1938

June 8, 1972 Tape 627 JM - 4 the street who is raising a family, Mr, Chairman, - MR. MURPHY: Could we have an adjournment for ten minutes so that we can recover? MR. NEARY: Is this what the people of Newfoundland expected of this government, Mr. Chairman, when they brought in two newspaper men to take their places which would appear to be bribery of the first order, Sir, bribery for favours !!'.ranted in pre-election recording ,by a newsman, to fool the people of this province? Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the honourable minister if he would reconsider tonight the firinp. of these two gentlemen and I am sure if the honourable minister could not use them in his department that they could have been used in some other part of the Civil Service. They could have been one of the ten flunkies, party hacks that were hired following the election or they could have been put in the information department in the Premier's office which will cost this province, Mr. Chairman, about a half a million dollars. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: Cost the taxpayers,a monkey on the back of the taxpayers, Mr. Chairman, costing the province about a half a million dollars compared to the'Newfoundland Bulletin'which was $125,000,that they ranted and raved so much about before the election, Sir. MR.MURPHY: Did the honourable member ask me a question or does he still want to carry on? MR. NEARY: I am asking the honourable minister if he would reconsider the firing of these two gentlemen or would the honourable minister inform the House what recourse they have to process their grievance if they feel they have one? MR.

MURPHY: PossibYy on that, Sir, and it is not in the estimates. I do not know if a minister is required ·to answer ouestions. As I say if I want to answer all the questions that are not in my estimates I 1939

June 8, 1972 Tape ·627 JM - 5 could spend the next twenty-seven years here. What year did the "Florestelle" sink? But I am only too happy, anything I do - Look there is nothing wrong with my conscience. I sleep like a baby every night but I do not think,like one like the honourable memher,but I sleep like one. During the past two or three - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: Thank you! Mr. Chairman, in response to the - MR. NEARY: What about the baby - MR. MURPHY: Does the honourable inember want. a question answered or not?

There are hundreds of families with babies that are not workin~ with the Civil Service. MR. NEARY: But these two men were. MR. MURPHY: They were not poll captains with the Liberal party, they were not canvassers perhaps that is why. MR. NEARY: Oh, come on now, come on. MR. MURPHY: I will come on, yes I will come on, sure. If you will give me a chance I will come on 1 I will give you the answer. MR. NEARY: All right, come on. Let us hear it. MR.

MURPHY: - - - -- I think everybody in the province was aware for the past two or three years the objections to this insidious propaganda paper that was being put out, known as the "Bulletin.'' When I took over in January ! ,checked on this "Bulletin',and this was on the eighteenth. I think was on the nineteenth we t·ook over, and I was advised that _ there was an edition goinr, to pre.ss the following week.

Now in case anybody forgets, in that election there was a Progressive Conservative Party elected, we had a new Premier in the person of the Honourable Frank Moores, so I asked for these sheets or whatever was written for this '·Bulle tin," 1940

June 8, 1972 Mr. Murphy. Tape no. 628 Page 1 - MRW This was to be published on the 26th or the 27th. January, one week after the day Premier Moores and his party took power. The first thing greeted me was: "Best Wishes for a Happy New Year, from Premier Joseph R. Smallwood." It was a beautiful and inspiring message from Mr. Personality himself, the Leader of the Opposition, There was a greeting from him and I sat down and said, "is this political or not? Is it political?" I had such a job to convince myself - I overcame my better judgment.

I said, "I think there is a tinge of politics in this paper." Now I do not know if we put it out to ask the general public what they would think on the thing. MR. NEARY: What about the two men? MR. MURPHY: The two men then were advised - MR, NEARY: They were the innocent victims. MR. MURPHY: They were the innocent victims,absolutely used by the Liberal Party in this thing as workers on this paper. MR. NEARY: Oh, come off it! MR. MURPHY: Now when any function phases out,well i presume the employees phase out with it?

I received very strong representations - MR; NEARY: It is the first time that I have ever seen it done in the Civil Service. MR. MURPHY: I received some anonymous phone calls similar to the one - I do not know - I would not say that the honourable member instigated it but the wordings are much the same: "You dirty so and so." "How do you s.leep at night_ time?" MR. NEARY: You dirty what? MR. MURPffi: So and so. MR. NEARY: What is so and so? MR. MURPHY: Well I could put it out but I just would not - MR. NEARY: Why do you not? MR. MURPHY: And the honourable member today talking about - 21R.

NEARY: If you cannot quote it, do not quote it at all. 1941 !t

Tape no. 628 Page 2 June 8, 197L MR. MURPHY: The honourable member talking about taking his Sunday School kids down Lu the pond today in Labrador· - shame! shame: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, a point of order, if I may, I would like to ask the honourable member - MR. MURPHY: Can I answer the first question first? MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: Is it a point of order? MR. NEARY: The honourable minister,who is on his feet and should be in his seat when there is a point of order raised,insinuated that the phone call that he got may h.ive been motivated by me. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I ask the honourable member to retract that or clarify the situation. It is not true. I want to tell the honourable minister that that is not true. MR. MURPHY: What is the point of order? MR. NEARY: The point of order is that the honourable minister insinuated that I was responsible for the phone call that he received - the nasty, rude phone call. MR. MURPHY: Did everybody hear that1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable minister did say that. I want him to retract it because it is not true. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member refer specifically to the language which the honourable member is referring to? MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, if necessary I would like to move the House into adjournment for ten minutes so that we can get the actual wording of the honourable minister. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Point of order, please, Mr, Chairman. if the honourable gentleman is finished, The point of order raised by the hon·. member for Bell Island was that the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs insinuated that the hon. gentleman from B~llisland instigated the phone calls.

Now my understanding of the words of the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs were that: "certain phone calls resembled in vocabulary certain things said by the hon. member for Bell Island." There was no suggestion 1942

June 8, 1972 Tape no,628 Page 3 Mr. Ottenheimer, nor insinuation that the hon, .member for Bell Island had instigated these phone calls, Now the point made by the honourable minister was that there was a resemblance in the vocabulary. I am quite sure that there was no insinuation whatsoever, at least in my understanding of the words, that the honourable member had instigated them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable minister did not mean to imply that there was any dishonourable conduct by any member of this House - MR, NEARY: Mr. Chairman,-I want to hear the honourable minister say that.

MR, MURPHY: Say what? I said that I had phone calls, using similar language that the honourable member had used. Now did I say that you did it? Now is there anything wrong with this? If it is, I apologize. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, if I may - MR. MURPHY: If anybody in this country feel that I insinuated that the honourable member said these - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR, MURPHY: I will sit down when I finish my explanation.and the honourable Chairman tells me, If there is anybody who feels that I accused the honourable member of making the phone calls, I apologize. I did not say it but still I will apologize.

It is only a simple matter of saying, "I am sorry if the impression was gained," If half the things were said - _AN HON. M~MBER: Carry on. MR. MURPHY: It is all right, is it? Thank you. Okay. MR, GILLETT: Mr. Chairman, because I am supposed to be a so-called critic, I guess, of the Department of Provincial Affairs, I think that perhaps the only criticism I could muster would be to criticize this department were it not to go all out with everything it has at its disposal to preserve and maintain,as has already been said by the Leader of our Party, 1943 i,

June 8, 1972 Mr. Gillett Tape no. 628 Page 4 the hon. member for White Bay North. I think in my own personal opinion that this is a very important, one of the important portfolios or departments in this government. I say this because, as we all know, this beloved province of ours is the oldest British Colony overseas. This very port was the first port in North America. Now that cannot happen and that cannot be without our having such things as artifacts, historic sites and what not. I speak with reference to the remark made by our Leader of the Opposition concerning the artifacts at Twillingate.

These were discovered accidentally by the owner of the property when digging a well. The instruments (I do not know who has seem them from here) themselves were , believe it or not, precision made, Presently I believe they are in Ottawa. I understand that we are to get them back if and when Twillingate has a suitable place to house them. We have been told that they date back 3000 years - 3000 years. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. GILLETT: Oh, yes. Whether or not this small piece of land could be marked in some way,(I think it will be sometime.

I hope it will,) whether it is by the Provincial Government, by the town council, by our Chamber of Commerce, by whatever, However we do have that and we are very proud of it, It was discovered accidentally, not like Dr. lngstad whom incidentally I met at St. Anthony when he was on his voyage. This was accidentally discovered.

Now historic sites. _Mr, Chairman, I would like to get a little explanation on what constitutes an historic site,whether it be an old, old building that we would like to preserve, that the government would wish preserved or whether it has to be some historic site such as Cape Bonavista, Signal Hill or something like that because if it is the old, old buildings, we do have one in Twillingate, an old dwelling house that has been untouched as far as I know since it was built 150 years ago. 1944

June 8, 1972 Mr. Gillett Tape no, 628 Page 5 I do hope that something is going to be done to preserve it. I am not going to delay this any further, Mr, Chairman,but perhaps the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs will be good enough to very briefly explain to me what constitutes an historic site? 1945 •""''

June 8, 1972 Tape·629 NB -1 Thank you, MR, MURPHY: Quite frankly, I do not know if it is set down in any part, but I presume some of the buildings you refer to on Twillingate Island. At the present time now I think there is an investigation going on within the settlement of Trinity. Some of the old stores there. I think there is a store there something like what the hon. member describes. The Isle of Bois is it we call it 1in the Ferryland Area there? AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible MR, MURPHY: Isle Aux Bois.

Matter of fact there is a list and I would certainly appreciate and I would like to invite the hon. member any time at all to drop in and fill us in. As I say, and I think members of the past government are more aware than I am, I am only there three months. But, Dr. Frecker,[ suppose one of the most devoted men to this type of thing, oftentimes I could see he was exasperated because the funds were just not available for him to do things he would like to have done with it. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has referred to L'Anse-au-Meadow's. We have the Port au Choix. We have Si_gnal Hill. We have Castle Hill.

Many are ongoing, but under Federal jurisdictioTI rather than ours. I would certainly invite the hon, member to drop into the office and I would like to have him with my Deputy Minister and jot down anything he feels of interest. To day I had a letter from a group of people in Carbonear. I just forget the name. A princess, the grave of an Irish princess was suppose to,have been discovered.

There is one thing that I am happy about, Mr, Chairman, and _ that is there seems to be an awakening such as you have brought forth, of people becoming very much aware of the great historic significance of our beautiful homeland here, the .many things that are forgotten. I am sure there is not a member in this House that could not in some part of his district come up with something that if we cannot do it with a great amount of money, at least let us set up a few small committees so that they could work and keep in constant touch with the department.

Labrador for example, I do not know if there is anything at all in Labrador. Are you aware of anything for the South? 1946

June 8, 1972 · Tape 629 NB - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: There is Henley Harbour, Cartwright MR. MURPHY: There are! 1~ey come under us as Historic sites? No, I do not see anything here in Historic sites. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: Is there? It is just a thought I am throwing out. So, I would like to invite the hon. member any time at all to drop in and we will have a_chat about the thing, Let us rtote it because you have been a resident of Twillingate for many years and you can go back many more years, So let us have ariy thing historic you would like to have. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Chaiman, when the hon. member spoke about Labrador, I am sure in Northern Labrador and I am sure my colleague who is now the member for Northern Labrador has seen the museum at Hopedale which was started and advanced by the Moravian Mission. There is I suppose the oldest of building, part of the oldest building in North America today, at Hopedale, where the first Moravian Mission built their first station. Perhaps when we get down to the estimates of the Hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation we can go further into the operations and a little history on the Moravian Mission.

So there is something there which I think you might take a look at. Maybe w~ can do something with it, during my years, and I can go back to 1936, first when I knew the Eskimos and the Indians. I can assure you there is a great difference in their standards of living today than there was at that time. Another subject all together, Mr. Chairman. The Hon. _Minister of Justice for years.when we came to this vote always tried to entice the minister of that day. I think laterly it was the Hon. Dr. Frecker, as you mentioned, to get one of those Newfoundland Grand Bank sailing vessels.

It does not necessarily have to be a Grand Bank sailing vessel because although we can understand the Ministir of Justice interest in the Grand Bank Banker, as we called them. Naturally, of course, being from Grand Bank he would like to see one established or brought back and reinstated to its original state as an historic site and a tourist attraction, But we have the Labrador Floaters 1947 ft

June 8, 1972 Tape- 629 NB - 3 which were similar to the Bank sailing vessel. I, myself, my first visit to Labrador with my father.between school periods in July and August,made my first trip to Labrador in a sailing vessel. It was one of the most exciting trips of my life except for the fact for the first three days out I was like the gentleman that had to be taken off the dorey who was rowing across the Atlantic. I was awfully seasick. Nevertheless those are things that are gone.

Not only the ships, the vessels, the schooners as we called them have gone, but the men too, who sailed them are getting fewer and fewer every day. There is nothing we can do of course to prolong,for getting any historical value out of those great men wh_o sailed those vessels. Then, of course, I think, and it is an unforgivable sin of the previous government that we did not get into salvaging something of the old sealing fleet. I recall when the old "Eagle" was taken outside the Narrows here and sunk.

It was a great pity, That type of ship which characterized or was characteristic of our old sealing days has gone, Now, we reached a stage where the sealing industry itself is almost gone. AN HON. MEMBER: The "Ranger" and the old "Neptune" are gone. MR. WINSOR: The "Ranger" and the old "Neptune". Here again, I am only a comparatively young man, Mr.

Chairman, but I did have the experience of my first voyage to the seal fishery as a wireless operator in the old "Neptune", That was a very excittng venture I can assure you, Those are the things that have slipped through our hands, I do not know if the minister has any intention of - I doubt ve~ much if there is another sailing vessel available. Perhaps we may some day have to get one of ttem, not the size of the Grand Bank fishing vessels, but a smaller one that we can pull ashore somewhere.

Maybe get out in the National Park, to indicate our way of life years ago ,the type of life that made Newfoundland what it was and what it is today. So, this is just a thought in passing, Mr. Speaker, but I nbticed in the Estimates and I doubt with the sum of money that is available whether you are going to be able to do much in that respect or not,because it is not only the expense of getting in such a vessel but it is the operating and getting it into a safe 1948

June 8, 1972 · Tape 629 Nl3 - 4 harbour. If it is going to be afloat of course it will then entail great expense to keep crew on board and so an so forth. On the mainland.there is one vessel which is ltnown to the Newfoundland sea111en. That was the ''Marion Elizabeth". I think it is pulled ashore somewhere in No:va Scotia, They have tnade a restaurant of her. I had the privilege of visiting onboard the "Old Bear 11 on which Captain Perry made the trip to the Artie, That :vessel was pur.chased by a Boston firm,outfitted an.d was going to be towed' to Boston for the same purpose 1949

June 8, 1972 Tape 630 (night) MR. WINSOR: as a tourist attraction but unfortunately while it was being towed from Halifax to Boston it ran into a bad stonn and the old "Bear" was lost. We have to get back to our original way of life, we have to get back to indicate to the people who are going to be attract·ad to our province then we must go back to our historical days and maybe if the minister cannot find money this year next year he may PK - 1 be able to persuade the Minister of Finance to appropriate.because his family too were a great marine family. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to prolong the debate but in the remarks by the honourable member for Fogo concerning Labrador North and the preservation of the culture of our Eskimo people and Indians, itls most unfortunate that, although I may stand to be corrected on this,that the honourable M~nister of Provincial Affairs and Labrador Affairs I do not think has yet made a visit to Labrador North as such.

I think this is unfortunate and the fact that last year I myself,being the Minister of Labrador Affairs,did attend the Boys Centennial celebrations of the Eskimos -in Labrador, When they arrived they re~enacted the landing in Nain going back to 1771,when the Eskimo population in Labrador led the very, very primative life, living merely off the land with no contact with our civilizat:l.on at all. They did put on a very good display, I was really moved by the display that was put on by the Eskimo people.

The numben have increased and their way of life has increased to some degree but they still speak their own language. So I think that, going back to the time of 1771, early this year there was a discovery of old cannons around the Nain area. So I would like to think that the hon.

Minister of Provincial Affairs. in his wisdom, although the Moravian people have themselves been very interested . in the culture of the Eskimos and I suppose have written a number of books,that I have read, on the Eskimo people and how they emigrated from Asia, over across the Bering Straits and got into Baffenland and then into Labrador. 1950

June 8 1972 Tape 630 (night) PK - 2 MR: WOODWARD: But I think the Morvian people themselves have done a lot of work. It is the responsibility to some dep,ree I suppose of the Provincial Government. I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs if he intends at some time,in his wisom,.in his department to look into preserving some of the cultures of the Eskimo people in Northern Labrador. These are the only Eskimos that we have other than the Eskimos in the Northwest Territories. MR. t-ffiRPHY: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to take the opportunity to respond to some of the sugp;estions thrown forth, possibly the honourable member for Labrador North first. I was rather amazed that we had not a catalogue in the aense,and I am only going through the estimates of these, whether they are historic sites or museums or anything else. Now I do not know,! may be wrong but I have yet to see in the Department of Provincial Affairs anything preserved, you know, with reference to this museum there.

Now I am not surprised neither am I surprised in Labrador Affairs because when I arrived in both of these offices I could not even find a blotting paper not even talking about a sheet of paper. Apparently there were some very historic documents that both the ministers wanted to keep for themselves without me seeing _ them, you know. So it is very hard to keep up a link. a chain of communication if one minister follows another and goes in and,as I have used the expression before, "find your office like Mother Hubbard's cupboard," you know.

But I am rather surprised that the past government had not recorded some of these things in Labrador. As I say, I am only dealing with what is in my estimates brought over from last year. With reference to the honourable member for Fogo - there is no one more heartily in accord with what he says than I am,knowing the "captains" and I wiil use the expression because I think it is of respect to him, his association with our marine history and particulary Labrador,that it is a shamethat we did not do some of the things like 1951 ..

June 8, 1972 Tape 630 (night) PK - 3 MR . MURPHY: he has suggested. No actual record of our great association with the sea. While I was in L'Anse-au-Meadows there was a Mr. Pederson, I think Mr. Pedersen from the museum in Copenhagen. He asked me if I could supply him with some information with reference to a coastal or trading schooner that they had in their museum in Copenhagen. I told him to let me know what questions he had - he had some pictures. But apparently they have a viking ship and also a coaster MR. ROBERTS: A viking ship? MR.

MURPHY: A viking ship in Copenhagen, in Denmark, a replica I do not say it is an actual one, but . a replica and also they have a coasting vessel I believe belong to Newfoundland,He mentioned places like Fogo, Twillingate and these areas. Well this was rather significant to me after listening for many years to the honourable Minister of Justice with reference to this banking vessel for Grand Bank and there was never any money to do it.

I often thought that in this province 1with all the people who are connected with the sea, with banking and I think with the great names of firms in Grand Bank, Burin and all of these areas, why there was not some kind of a trust set up to purchase one of these. It was not running into millions of dollars. Not millions of dollars - I just had a note sent to me now from the member for Bay de Verde, why not take the old"Kyle'.'that is out in Harbour Grace -and make something of it. Now I would just like to say t_hat the ''Kyle 1'has been purchased as she is.

I do not know if the deal is completed, hut we are negotiating - to tow her into Beaci•Y Cove and beach her. Now the "Kyle", I think, I am told they are looking for something like four thousand dollars. The thing has been just about stripped, unfortunately. AN HON. MEMBER: Did the member for Carbonear promise to do that? MR MURPHY: Well basically he is doing it. One of the great P.C, promises again. Getting away from that promise, perhaps this is one of the things 1952

June 8, 1972 Tape 630 (night) J']( - 4 MR. MURPHY: and the ''Kyle" I suppose has as much association with the Labrador fishery,because I think in recent years she was the one who made that special trip into Labrador with the Labrador fishermen. I do not know, did t miss anything on this? MR. WINSOR: Mr, Chairman, one reference to the "Kyle." Again, I happened to be purser and wireless operator on the ''Kyle". When the "Caribou'' was sunk, we picked up the service - MR, MUFPHY: ,From the "Caribou?" MR.

WINSOR.: The · 'Burgeo" first, but when the ice came down in the winter it was the "Kyle" and it was the "Kyle'' that kept the link between North Sydney and Port aux Basques open all during the winter period after the "Caribou" was sunk, So that might be a little information that the minister might - !'{R, GILLETT:_ !-1r. Chairman, I have no desire to prolong this but I do thi.nk it is a very important subject.

As I said earlier it should be a priority not a top priority perhaps but it should be a priority of this government before it is too late, In other words, let us gather up the fragments, there 1s nothing to be lost. Because we have still alive in this province men who can relate stories and relate them i.n a language that befiti; their day when they went to the Labrador. For instance, Hrs. Lois Saunders, she might be back now, but she did leave on Monday morning to go to Twillingate to interview Dr. Olds, C.B.C. are going to do a documentary on him. 1953 f."

June 8, 1972. Tape 631 Page 1. I mentioned to her on the telephone that we have in our district the man who carried the ammunition. I have forgotten wh~t they called him. I know at the icefields we call him a "dog" when he carries the ammunition to the sealer, but he did carry the ammunition for New­ foundland' _s V.C., the day that he earned his V,C. Mr. White, he is living in Whale's Gulch. I told her that I have made up my mind to go up and visit with him some day and tape.record his story, which I am sure must be a fantastic one.

But, most of the reason why I am speaking now, after the honourable member for Fogo, after hearing that the government has purchased the "Kyle"~ I am the proud owner of what I believe to be the oldest Nova Scotian afloat, the 'Grace Boehmer•" She was a banking schooner in her early days, She was built in 1911. She is not rigged as a banking schoor.er, of course, and has not been for quite a number of years, I have tried to sellher in the United States and wonld have sold her long ago had she been fitted for sail. So a while ago I offered her to the Twillingate Chamber of Commerce as a tourist attraction.

I offered it for free, She is sitting in Purcelrs Harbour. I have kept her painted and maintained as much as possible, radar on board, and so on. But I would like to see her preserved. Now the Chamber of Commerce have not given me an answer, So that if the Governlllent of Newfoundland wants her, there she is, She is theirs, Come and take her and tow her out. left today in Newfoundland, As far as I know she is the only vessel Because she is very, old, she is part of the family so to speak. I would love to see the old soul preserved and maintained.

So I just give this as an offer, Mr, Chairman, and would ask thf'! honourable Minister of Provincial Affairs to consider it seriously. 1.9~4

June 8, 1972. Tape 631 Page 2. MR.A.MURPHY: I would like sincerely to thank the honourable member for Twillingate. The price is just about what we could manage at this time. I am sure, Sir, if the Chamber of Commerce, and at that price I say, I do not think we could refuse it very well, But you know, it is sort of like the story I heard the other day - anyhow, I will forget it - I cannot remember it, it was good too, I would like, would the honourable member be free to drop into the office in the morning and let us have a chat about the whole thing? Then we can make a statement on it afterward.

MR.ROBERTS: I thank the rear-admiral from St. John's Centre, The member from Twillingate, a nice thing,for the benefit of the House Leader,about these debates is they do tend to lead into,one thing into another. This , is probably good for 11~00 p,1".We will not get on to, Labrador Affairs, Executive Council or even Education tonight, But the member for Tw1llingate raised a point which I think is worth a little further exploration on a different task perhaps. That is the question of oral history.

He referred to a gentleman who carried ammunition for Sergeant Ricketts on the day in which Sergeant Ricketts won the Victoria Cross. MR.MURPHY: They are unveiling a plaque on Saturday, the Pharmaceutical Society. MR.ROBERTS: That is right,up on Water Street,by the Railway Station - Dr. Ricketts, Mr. Ricketts son, who was in Grand Falls,! believe gave, on a long-term loan,the "Cross" the actual Voctoria Cross to the museum. Of course, it is very much part of the history of this Province. Sergeant Ricketts was the only Newfoundlander to win a Victoria Cross. There was another Newfoundlander, there was an

article in the "Quarterly"some time ago, "Newfoundland Quarterly',' What I am talking about now is oral history, The project which began originally at Columbia University in the States, about twenty years ago, in which people spoke, often very frankly and freely and often on a condition or an understanding that their thoughts not be made public until some 19~5 , . {;

June 8, 1972. Tape 631. Page 3. years after they are dead or what have you. But, talk into a tape-recorder, this is much easier for many people than, you know, sitting down and writing.

It also gives you a much freer and a much better drift of history. very important tool of history,Mr, Chairman, This has become a In the years gone by things were done_ with notes, and when people came to write history there were papers, letters back and forth, One reads of the British Cabinet, even in this first war, ministers would write notes back and forth daily, almost across the Cabinet Table, for the sake of history but also as a means of communication.· MR.MURPHY: Somet~ing like the National Convention that is preserved on tapes as far - MR.ROBERTS: Indeed there are transcripts of the National Convention.

It has all been transcribed. It was on wire - the old V.O,N,F. had wires there were no, tapes were unheard of in those days, but wire recordings. Theywere also on discs but some of the discs got smashed They were on discs, were they not? Because they were played in the evening. The convention met, what - three o'clock to six o'clock I presume and - I do not remember, I was not old enough.

MR.MURPHY: The whole tapes were an hour and a-half - MR.ROBERTS: The whole thing was broadcast in the evening, So they were1all recorded, they were rebroadcast - I know they are on record, and were rebroadcast in the evenings because it was one of the great exercises in participatory democracy in Northern American History was the period leading up to the convention and the two referenda. People in Newfoundland now do not know what goes on in this House, that may he just as well for those who sit in the House, AN.HON.MEMBER: How lucky can you get?

MR.ROBERTS: Well, luckier than I am having to listen to the honourable gentleman or him having to listen to me. But, you know, they will know 19~6

June 8, 1972. Tape 631. Page 4. only what t~ey read in the press, in the written press, and hear on the radio and television. The National Convention was broadcast I understand that neople all over Newfoundland, may be some of the older members would know because people all over the island would gather and would 0 listen, would have an interest, indeed, I have heard one or two of them, Mr. Smallwood would be there to show that he knew the name of the game, Sir, he would not be saying·Mr. Speaker he would be saying ladies and gentlemen, because he was talking to the people of Newfoundland not to the Speaker, Mr.

Speaker Fox or Speaker McEvoy or Gordon Bradley who was Speaker as well. There were three, Chairman, the man who took the Chair. But it is all historv you know, something that should be looked at, I have brought it up time and time again. I think the University should do it, but they never have. Perhaps we could find some money, because this is irreplaceable if we do not get it, you know, once it is gone, it is gone. For example, there are very few men left alive who went over the top in the July Drive. There are still some. They are getting on.

The reunion of the First Fiv~ Hundred now, you see it in the newspaper, there are only three or four men who are well enough to come. But there are still some. What it would be worth to history to have the tape-recordings of those men, just talking for an hour, 19~7 ,..._, r:

June 8, 1972, Tape 632, Page 1 -- apb· It takes skilled . interviewers. The hon. minister has down in the archives a couple of p;raduate students in history, I am sorry the y are M .A's. , Mr. David and t•lr. Greene. They are very fine fellows. If they could spend three of four days with a tape recorder it would not cost much. Indeed, Education have lots of tape recorders down in the Audio Visual

section and some tape could be had surely. Those men who went over the top, to sit and talk with them for a couple of hour, and lead them on and p.et their word, their storv of what happened. It is part of our history and in a very few years they will all be P.one. The Greenland Disaster: Clayton Kinp: who was the wireless operator on the Vik.in~ is of course still very much alive. He was Citizen of the Year or f!andicapped Citizen of the Year a couple of years ago. Even the Confederation thing; the ~inister of Finance today mentioned when he was talking about }fr, Banfield and r-rr.

Vince.nt, both of whom served .in the National Convention. There are not that many men left who serve·d :l.n the National Convention. There are no men left in this Hou-se since ~•r. Smallwood and Mr. Nip:ht. Ballam and ?-Ir. Keoup.h have r:one. There were these three in the last - well Charlie Ballam retired in 1 66 . Even the Second War, it is amazing how quickly - yesterday the 6th. of June, it is nearly thirty years since the D-Day landings in Normand_y. I ran into a lady i_n my district, Mrs.

Simms, up in ~•ain Brook, who was one of the first nurses who went to work with Dr. r:renfell back in the early, about 1918. She was sent off to Boston to do training. I have asked her and if I can p.et it from the lady, I know she would -- I will send the r.:1:;ntlemen a copy for the archives, lf she would write do~m her experiences. If we could find twenty or thirty thousand dollars, 1-lr. Chairman, it is not a lot of money, when you talk of what the province spends over a year. If we could find twenty or thirty 19~8

June 8, 1972, Tape 632, Page 2 -- apb thousand dollars and get a couple of graduate students this summer, maybe this opportunity for youth thing, I do not know, but a couple of tape recorders, send them around the orovj_nce. There is still a man alive in St. Anthony who was one of the eight men who rescued r.renfell from the ice pan in the bay, in Hare Bay when he went adrift there in 1909 and had to kill his dogs. All over Newfoundland there must be, hon. members who are older than I am would know many people who have stories that should be recorded.

If they are not recorded soon they will be gone, because old men do get old and their memories go and age comes on. What was De Gaulle's description of Marshall Peta.in? "The shipwreck of old ap.e. A very eloquent and very moving phrase. Then old men die and their stories die with them. Some of the Indian and Eskimo people up in Labrador, even a man like the Reverend t-•r. Peacock,, he is not an old man but he spent twenty-five or thirty years of his life on the coast. ~ - _!!O_N_.~~_!:~ Thirty years. ?-'R. ROBERTS: . . --------- - Thirty years at Nain and then latterly at Goose Bay itself and Happy Valley.

If, Hr. Chairman, the minister could find a few dollars for this. The historic sites are there; Isle du Bois or 1'·Anse-au-Meadow, a few more years under the p;rass will not really matter because they are there and as long as they are dug properly when they are dug,they are not going to be lost. These disasters and the incidents in our history - I was driving-from Gander the other day and coming up through the park to the Spencer Bridge on the Terra Nova River, it has been thirty years since, thirty-five years since the fire burned out through Alexander Bay, that was quite.an interesting thing.

It has been twelve years now since the great fire that began in behind Rodney Lake and swept up to - it is amazing how quickly time goes. I know, Mr. Chaiman, some members of the Committee, it .1959

June S, 1972, Tape 632, Page 3 -- apb seems a little much to thern, but these are the things that should be discussed in this House. We do not always have to be· talkin!? politics. I wonder if the minister - I know he cannot answer now, I would not expect him to, but if he could take this under advisement. It is something that I have long been keen on and I have gone out to the university and they give the answer that they have other thin!?S and demands for money. It is only a few thousand dollars and unless, we do something fairly quickly, Sir, I do fear that these things will be gone.

There must be men left from the Greenland Disaster, but there cannot be a lot. AN HON. MF:lfBER: There is Mr. l'ouland from }fusgrave Harbour. ~- ROBERTS: J-lr. ~fouland from !-fusgrave Harbour, the hon, p.entleman knows him, but there must be all over Newfoundland maybe three or four hundred people, indeed, some of our noliticians, we were talking about the hon. Mr. Browne the other night, Mr. William Browne. To sit down with Bill Browne and record his political reminiscences. Major Peter Cashin; I saw him on the television,as many memhers did 1 probahly a year or so ago.

But there is no man left alive that I know now who served in a pre-commission House of Assembly. I do not think there is a man. AN HON. ME:MBER: Mr. Browne MR. ROBERTS: --~---~- Oh! I am sorry, Mr. Brm-me. AN HON. MEMBER : Phil Lewis. . --- - llR . ROBERTS: Mr. Browne and Phil Lewis. -- ---·--~-. ~!12'..: . Did Mr. Curtis serve ••. NR. ROBERTS: Mr. Curtis? No, al though there is a man, Mr. Curtis · first came to work in the House in 1919 as a legislative reporter doing the shorthand of the day. AN HON. MEMBER: Tom Ashbourne? MR. ROBERTS: Tom Ashbourne, there are three. Tom Ashbourne was in the 1960

June 8, 197Z, Tape 632, Page 4 -- apb Night. National Convention of course, and }ia1or Cashin. So there are four. MR. MURPHY: I think Mr. Abbott is still alive on the Port au Port -- _,,..·- -~----- Peninsula, Bill Abbott is he not? !·'R. ROBF.RTS: Is he? Colonel Abbott is it? The member for Port au -·-··-·---- - · Port is not here today. The Reverend Mr. Burry was in the convention 1 never in the House. Hr. Burry was the first man ever elected to represent Labrador 1 in 1946. I was thinking of the hon. Frank Pike who died a year or so ago, the last member of the Legislative Council.

Unless we get it now we are going to lose it. There are very few members of the Convention left. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: That is a name I do not - when did he serve in the House? --· ·-- -- . AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) --~- ···---- --·- ·--· - :r'.'_~. _ _R...Q_BERTSJ_ Yes, but there are not many men, even o~ the National Convention left. The hon. member for Fortune Bay has historic connections with Fop.o. I think he left it as a young man, but there must be things he can remember of the story of the Earles.

A man who writes tirelessly to the newspapera and the minister is Gerop,e Washington Porter. There cannot be a minister who has not heard from Mr. Porter. He writes marvellously long letters. A man like that, he should he recorded ,then the historians would have the raw stuff of history. Because, Mr. Chairman, there will be no papers. Peoole do not write letters any more. The only letters you get are; ··1 have yours of. the 12th. ult. and I referred it to 11\Y Deputy Minister." That is hardly the stuff of history.

I have taken some time of the Coll!'!littee, I did not intend to but the p!entleman from Twillingate reminded me. I wonder if the minister could look into this, twenty-five or thirty thousand bucks, even the Minister of Finance whose family have long and historic traditions in this province, maybe,even in a year when he has been talking tuff anyway, he can find this sort of money. We found one thousand dollars earlier today in the estimates for Legisla~_iv _e . 9 6,. .. ,1. .1. ....

June 8, 1972, Tape 632, Pa2e 5 - - aph " Assembly , we are not go:l.np. to need a thousand dollars for aircraft travel for the Bouse. Our fli p.hts of fancy are not in a · Twin Otter · nor one of the helicopters n<;r anytl1i nJ,t. Could somethin~ be done about it? Could one of the ar chives officers start listin F names of people? Anyway, I have p.one over the p.roun ds 19G2 Nirh t.

June 8, 1972 Mr. Roberts Tape no. 633 Pagel - MRW maybe a number of times but I do feel strongly about it, as a Newfoundlander. It has nothing to do with Liberal or Progressive Conservative or anything else, Maybe the minister could take it under advisement. He may want to say something now, Sir, in which case I will vacate the floor and let him. MR. MURPHY: Just briefly, I want to thank the honourable members for their contributions. I am a little older than the ordinary fellow, I remember Newfoundland, I am a Newfoundlander but basically I am a Canadian but I am a Newfoundlander.

As I said before, I get calls and it is amazing during this past week, particularly women call me who have been to- a performance somewhere and they say, "look, do they not play the Ode to Newfoundland anymore? You should make them play the Ode to Newfoundland." I had a call or a letter from the Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corp when we revived the pageant on Signal Hill. They said, "why not get us a banker and we will man it with sea cadets for the summer to go around the different areas?" I thought it was a tremendous idea.

But again it is this little matter of money, I would say that when some of the wealthy banker families and associations get together, I am sure that there will be donations coming to perpetuate names of different people, MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) MR, MURPHY: Does the honourable member want to move Mr. Smallwood be a committee of one to - I appreciate all this quite frankly, I think it is a wonderful thing. If anybody wants to talk for a week and a-half on Archiv!?s or anything, Bern Gill is available any month to· g~ down and sit down. He is really bugs on this thing.

He has done a tremendous job down -there, As far as tapes and recordings are concerned, there could _ be a special part of that Archives set up for the oral one as well as the written one. MR, ROBERTS: Inaudible, MR MURPHY: Well, we will see what we can do, But anybody, and I say 1S63

June 8, 1972 Tape no. 633 Page 2 - MRW Mr. Murphy this again quite seriously, who has any ideas of wher~ to put this, just drop a note on the thing, There is nothing political about Newfoundland, our own province. I feel we all want to do the best we can do, They are political about the few people here but basically the majority of Newfoundlanders just want to see their own province preserved historically. I would invite anybody and the hon, member for Twillingate is coming in to see me tomorrow, I hope, Let us get that one underway. MR, EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, this is the sort of discussion that we can go all around the circle and I think we have tonight just about gone all around the circle on it, We have hit Fogo, We have hit Twillingate, I am not sure about Morton's Harbour AN HON, MEMBER: Morton's Harbour is still to come. MR. EARLE: Quite seriously on this, There is a quite practical aspect of this as well as an historical one. I am all for spending money to retain records) records of our past and all the references to our forefathers and all this sort of thing, We are losing far too many of them and far too quickly.

They will soon be gone beyond recovery, I think where we do miss the boat - Newfoundlanders are very, very poor salesmen of themselves and of their past.

We are very proud, If any Mainlander comes here and starts saying slighty things about us, everybody starts writing.to the paper and saying what finrl fellows they were and how offended we are because they do not like us and all this sort of thing, When it comes to selling ourselves to the rest of the world, we are very, very poor salesmen, If visitors,which are coming to this province in increasing numbers,come here, they go out around Cupids or somewhere and they see a stone stuck up which says, "John Guy's Settlement Once Stood Here." They have a job to find the stone. When they do find it, this is it.

They go somewhere else and they see a metal plague to say that: Sir Humphrey Gilbert was around .this area, Then you see Sir Francis Drake somewhere else 1964

June 8, 1972 Mr. Earle Tape no. 633 Page 3 ar.d all this sort of stuff, Interesting as it may be, some fellow can go home and tell his Aunt Annie that he stood on the place where Sir Francis Drake was or something of this sort, He has nothing to take back with him as a memento of that occasion, Now this is, I think, where our Tourist Department should get together with Provincial Affairs and start to work out a long-range plan where this thing could pay for itself. If you go to any of the European Cities reeking in history and so on, you can get any number of mementos of your visit to these places.

You can go to St. Peter's in Rome and you can bring back the bones of St, Peter almost if you want to. They are selling replicas of this, that and the other thing. You can get anv number of things.They make a pile of money on all this sort of stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how gullible people are, I am not suggesting that we play on their gullibility.

People do want to take back souvenirs and replicas of where they have been and what they have seen, Why in the name of Heaven's,if a fellow goes out and looks at a stone which says, "John Guy lived here," why cannc,t he take back something which is a replica of that age in that settlement. Why could there not be Sir Humphrey Gilbert boots or Sandals or something of this sort that he could buy? Why could there not be replicas of the Indians, the Beothucks that once inhabited this country?

Nobody thinks of producing anything practical that can help pay for the expense of building up these sites which are worth saving. I think in particular one of the great periods of our history which is fast disappearing and forgotten, being forgotten, is the part which the West of England merchants played in·the creation of this province, this country.

Now many governments, many people and particularly the last government were very adept at playing down the role that the merchants played in Newfoundland because they were all supposed to be rogues or crooks or sinners of one kind or another, If one reads history at all about the role which these people played, it was actually the life-blood of our whole economy for many, many years, Way back in the centuries this was the only thing on which the people had to depend, There are many famous names and 1965

June 8, 1972 Mr. Earle Tape no. 633 Page 4 many stories told of the old type of merchant who himself generally lived in abject poverty. He did manage to keep his dealers and his people around him. He did manage to live as a family and support the whole place. Now even coming up to t:1e day of Sir William Coaker, there were many people in Newfoundland who hated Sir William Coaker. They hated him desperately. There were many others who thought he was the saviour of the province. But why should we not remember these people, remember what they had?

I think Sir William Coaker had twenty-three branches around Newfoundland, twenty-three different mercantile establishments. Do not try to find them now. You might find one or two or the relics of one or two of them. You will find at Port Union, the main one and so on, Go even further back to when the Slades had all the premises up and down the northeast coast. You cannot find one item of these now remaining. The firm of Duders had the biggest sailing fleet in the British Empire. At one time, Newfoundland was the centre and the hub of the biggest sailing fleet in the British Empire.

There is nothing to remember that. There is nothing to recall it at all. Here again, if the Tourist Department and the Department of Provincial Affairs would get tteir heads together and build around this history practical examples of what life was like in Newfoundland in those days, it would be of inestimable value as a tourist attraction. It would be of great value in actually bringing revenue in. We would not have to look at what I consider a pitiful vote here in Provincial Affairs for this · sort of thing,because we would be paying for it ten times - or one hundred times over.

We could afford to spend some money on it. Let us make practical use of it. Let us try to get some income out of this. Heaven knows we can use it! Let us, at the same time, give our visitors and those who come to our shores something to remember us by and something to take home with them. 19G6

June 8, 1972 Tape no, 633 Page 5 MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest for the record and to indicate particularly to the hon . Leader of the Opposition the sugges tion he has made that we should start recording our history hy means of a tape recorder has already started in Grand Bank. The Extension Department of Memorial University, working out of the Semnen 1s Museum in Grand Bank, will this year record conversations, historical accounts with many of the Bank fis'hing captains who are still alive . There are not that many alive a nd some of the foreign-going · captains who sail out of that port.

The extension serviee on the Burin Peninsula has shown a great deal of leadership dur ing the past two or three years. I had the distinct pleasure of meeting with Neil Woolfrey this spring when we went over this and laid out a programme of recordings and the acceptability 19G7

June 8, 1972 Tape 634 that we are finding from the people in that area is most encouraging. I would assume that if the tononrable memher for Twillingate succeeds in his offer to the p,ovemment that a banking vessel will have to go, and I am sure he will insist that any hankin,z vessel be moored in the center of the deep-sea fishery in the province and I certainly will pass this on to my friends in my home town of Grand Bank. But seriously, Mr.

Chairman, and I have said this before in .JM - l the House, we find today hanking vessels from this province now restored and moored as tourist attractions in other parts of North America. The 'L.A. Dunton ' has been completely restored with her topmast and every­ thing else in the Port of Mystic, Connecticut, which is one of the. big touri _st attractions of the Eastern Seaboard. The "Theresa B. Connors'• is in Lunenburg and last year the ''Reo 11 " was sold out of Grand Rank and she too is in Lunenburg as a replica of another type of boat.

But I think there has to bP. something more than simnly standing in the House of Assembly and looking to government for the complete initiative. When I was· in Lunenburg and onboard the "Theresa B. Connors .. I was amazed but somewhat saddened to find that the historic ob.1ects and the navigational aides and equipment on a lot of the banking vessels that sailed out of Grand Bank and all their logs and records and pictures . are now back in Lunenburg and they do not belong there. They belong in Grand Bank, that is where the.v belonr,.

I ask one of the secur~ty men or the guides there, I said, ''What is the total involvement? This must have cost the Government of Nova Scotia a lot of money," and he looked at me in amazement. He saicl, "What does the Government of Nova Scotia have to do with it?'' I said, "Well it is an historic object of the museum," I think he thought I was dreaming. He said, ''This was done by the people of Lunenburg and nobody else and they acquire:Jthis boat, they raised the money by loans and everything else." They charged an admission fee, I think it 1968

June 8. 1972 • Tape 634 JM - 2 was fifty cents and you pick up souvenirs then it is a self-sustaining little industry once it gets going. If we can get a message through to the people of Newfoundland,who are very historic conscious,that a great deal of the leadership must be of local initiative rather than looking to Confederation Building for the funds, I think that we will go a long ways along the road of preserving some of the historic objects and particularly our marine historic objects that are tragically disappearing with great rapidity in this province. ~~:...Ql:_!.!,__EJ_'.!'_: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the honourable Minister of Justice who knows more about this than I do but I did hear, it might be just a rumor, that the "Theresa Connors" grossed in for the City of Lunenburg S40,000 in one year and I understood that the admission fee was $2.50. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few comments on one matter which has been brought up in this debate and that is the statement by the honourable Leader of the Opposition of the importance of oral history today in preserving the history of a country or,in our case, of a province.

As the honourable Minister of Justice hits already pointed out,there is activity at the university in this respect in particular.More than just the extension denartment is involved here. There is an actual oral history group 1 formed iust in the last five or six months, as I believe a separate department or tied in with the history department at the university.

T think they have already done a fair amount of work but I think it is worth drawing to the attention of the people of the province anc the people in the various communities that if they know of a particular individual in the community who they feel might have a lot to offer with respect to the history of their particular community or locality,that it would be worthwhile their contacting this oral history group at the university and I am sure they would be only too delighted to see that the things -1969

June 8, 1972 Tape 634 JM - 3 which these gentlemen have to offer are preserved for oosterity. The thing that has amazed me in speaking to some of our older citizens in the province is the vividness of their recall, the clarity with which they can go back fifty, sixty years. They may not he able to remember what day it is or what hour it is while you are speaking with them,but they can r,o on for hours and give unbelievable details about events which have occurred fifty or sixty years ago. MR. ROBERTS: They cannot recall last week but they can recall fifty years ago. MR.

BARRY: And this is why this particular ~rocess or method of preserving history is so important. Obviously somethinr like this woul~ never, you would never be able to get these people to, in many cases, write it down with the facility, the same ease w·ith which they can speak and tell it to an interviewer.

So this also, I think, to me anyhow when it was brought to my attention . showed one of the contributions with which r,eople coming from outside the province bave on our own particular culture becaus~, I believe)and I stand to be corrected but I do believe that the instigators of this oral history group at the university are from outside the province and they brought these ideas with them from developments which have taken place in other universities and other places of the world.

I think this shows one of the advantages of preserving a certain amount of openness in recruitme~t of personnel for our universities and encouraging, for that matter, openness in all walks of life insofar as contacts with other and different cultures are concerned. I stand here tonight just to draw to the attention of the people of this province that we do have this facility here at the university and that the people involved in the'oral history group are only too eager to find matters which should be preserved and which are important to our history. If this debate has done nothing else , ! 19'"/0

June 8, 1972 · Tape 634 think it will have been quite worthwhile in drawing this particular fact to the attention of the people of the province. MR. HARVEY: Mr. Chairman, I should not let this opportunity po by, seeing as how the member for Placentia West has brought the extension service into this debate and the honourable Minister of Justice.

As you all know, I worked with extension service and I would like to. just being a m~mber of the big staff at the extension service, I would like to briefly .1ust r,ive a run- down on some of the work that the extension service are doinp. in this field of old history and I could say I suppose visual history, as they use film also. Extension service have this pro .iect now !!'Oing on the Burin Peninsula, as the member for Burin has mentioned.

We also, today, right now, any member today could go down to the extension service and see a film on the life and problems of a fisherman on the Labrador Coast. a film made in 1970 in Snug Harbour. They could see a film on centralization on the North West Coast, they are preserving some of the history there, of people moving, floating their houses across JM - 4 the straits and bays. Extension service also filmed the bicentennial of the Moravian Mission on the Labrador Coast in Nain last year. That film is also at the extension service and could be viewed by any member or anybody who is interested in seeing it.

There is a film also made on the find, the Indian find, what is the name of the find up in Port aux Chaix? what is the name of the Indians? the Indian find by Dr. Tulk . at the university, that is also on film at extension service. So this has been going on,like the member for Placentia East has sai~ by the oral history department. The history department, I think, have an oral

section in their department, 1971 r.-

June 8, 1972 Tape 635 (night) PK - 1 MR. HARVEY: The Extension Service have it all on film or it started to do it on film. I think they intend to continue that. I think they should be congratulated on the work they are doing and I hope they will continue it. MR. T. DOYLE: I can no longer sit here as the representative of what I class to be the most historical rich district in the province, the District of Ferryland.

Brief reference has been made earlier tonight by the minister and the honourable Leader of the Opposition to the cannon on the Isle of Bois and I am happy to say that I have been fortunate enough this year to squeeze a few dollars from the honourable the minister to raise these cannons, Mr, Chairman, and have them put on proper carriages. I would like to give emphasis to a matter just brought up hy the honourable Minister of Justice and that is that I feel the people in the individual areas have to become involved in these matters.

The original work to restore the cannon in the Ferryland area was started by people in that particular community who got together and formed an association and got money from Ottawa and money from the Provincial Government. As a further example of what the people themselves _can do, Mr. Chairman, this year one of the few fortunate groups in the District of Ferryland who obtained an opportunities for youth grants are presently combing the homes of the Fermeuse, Port Kirwan Area to collect attifacts and anything they can find to assemble in one place where they will b~ on view to visitors.

So I quite agree with the honourable Minister of Justice that government cannot do all and a lot has to be started on individual basis. I just thought I would get in two cents worth, Mr. Chairman, thank you. MR. G. R. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, while everyone is getting their two cents worth in, I will try for my one and a-half or two and a-half or whatever the case might be. But it would appear that in every district 19"✓ 2

June 8, 1972 Tape 635 (night) I'K = 2 MR. OTTENHEIMF.R: in this province, whether Rurin, Ferryland, St. Mary's, White Bay, anywhere there are obviously documents, artifa cts of historic and folkloric interest. It would appear that one of the real problems facing the province, if it is to preserve this heritage,is to identify, is to make an inventory so that we know what is there. It is impossible for the department responsible, impossible for a government or a museum or for anybody to.take action to preserve and display what we have of value until it is known.

It would seem one of the most essential things is some kind of inventory of documents, artifacts, actual structures. Now if 1for example, somewhat stretching the rules of relevance here but I am probably not the first one to have done so this evening. When I look at my honourable friend from Burin I do not mean to suggest that, that he may have done so also, MR. HICKMAN: No not at all. MR.

OTTENHF.:IMER: But if for example, as there is reason to believe, nobody knows, I do not suppose the federal government have made up its mind yet but if there is a winter works programme coming up this winter and certainly there is a good likelihood that there will be, then it would appear that a very worthwhile project within vari.ous communities and it <'ould seem the kind of project which would appeal to the federal government,would be requests from various communities, and not a large sum involved, for a sum of money which would finance the necessary inventory of objects and artifacts and documents of historic and folkloric and cutural value.

This is just about something that every community could do because if it is a municipality organized communit¼ then obviously there is the council. If it is not there is not a community in Newfoundland where there is not some organization, be it a lodge, a parish association, a congregation association,in every community in Newfoundland there is some group and it would appear to be a very worthwhile kind of proj~ct, 19'",3 r:

June B, 1972 Tape 635 (night) PK - 3 "MR. OTTENHEIMER: in order to have an inventory made of what there is of historic value in the various communities and in various parts of the province so that the inventory at least, let us say, could be passed along to the Department of Provincial Affairs.

Then , obviously one would have to be quite selective,hut then at least there would be hopefully close to a province-wide inventory of what there is of historic value and action could he taken to keep within the province either in local museums or provincial museums, I am very much inclined for these regional museums, regional displays in an actual, let us say, house which is no longer used, which is for sale in the area so that we do not centralize everything in the museum in St. John's or Archives in St. John's I so that we will not centralize everyt .hinp in the Capital.

I think there is need for more and more decentralization, obviously in more contentious areas of government,but even in the noncontentious area of preservation and display of our historic objects and documents.

So I am perhaps taking advantage of this particular forum and opportunity to make the suggestion that throughout the province there would be a very real opportunity of achieving something of real value at somewhat minimal cost, hopefully paid by Ottawa,to at least have an inventory of what we have, Then we would have the basic information on which we could, the government could ;:,nd the department could and professional advisers to the minister could suggest what in fact should be purchased , should be bought.

Because it would appear that every year more .and more of our documents, artifacts and different things are going out of the province, tourist come down from Ontario, come from the U.S., come from different places. Things leave the province and 1 once they go,there is absolutely no opportunity of getting them back. So I would hope that it would he possible at least within a couple 19,'4

June 8, 1972 Tape 635 (night) PK - 4 MR. OTTENHEIMER: of years to get a kind of inventory of what there is of value in the various areas and then steps could be taken to preserve them. MR. A. B. PECKFORD: Before we leave this debate there are two interesting experiences of mine that I would like to relate to the Minister of Provincial Affairs,before we leave it completely. One concerns an island in Placentia Bay that some of the older gentlemen of this honourable House might be more familiar with than I.

But as a young boy I remember visiting it and I think it would be perhaps more a part of folklore than history. But I am told that this Island of Oderin has on it 1 and I visited it when I was around ten or twelve years old,a pond which is only one hundred or one hundred and fifty feet from the seashore. The story goes that the old pirate, Peter F.ast on,one of the more well known pirates in our history, went in there at one time and drained that pond and buried some treasure in it and put in wooden floor and then let the pond refill with water again.

It is a fact that that pond does have a wooden floor because I paddled through the pond, Taking about centralization, through centralization the inhabitants of Oderin Island have moved to other places hence there is no record I suppose, at least not that I know of, of this particular pond on this particular island in Placentia Bay and so therefore it has ceased to be of any popular interest. ·;umber two .

Mr, Chairman, in the District of White Bay North, which the Leader of the Opposition represents, on the French shore in Croque there is a graveyard, a French graveyard which is almost - some of the graves are near.the houses in the settlement. Apparently some years ago the earlier French settlers, there was an accident on the river which runs out into Croque Harbour and a number of people were drowned. Their bodies were recovered and they were buried in the settlement. ·19,5

June 8, 1972 Tape 635 (night) PK - 5 MR. PECK.FORD: The interestiniz part about it,of course,was that the bodies were hµried on top of the ground and then the ~ravel was put on top of the bodies. It would seem to me, I do not think much has been done. I was told that the French government sends a boat over from time to time to look after the graves . I think here is another part of Newfoundland that perhaps would be of i nterest to tourist and one thiniz and another, if Groque. remains a viable community and it too is not centralized. That is all ! have to say, Mr.

Gha.irman , I just thought I would bring it to the attention of the Uouse,hecause I think it is rather interestin!\ and it could become a very valuable part of our folklore o, history. 1976

June 8, 1972 · Tape 636 NB - l MR, WILSON: I would not want to see th is debate passing as the member from Port de Grave without having something to say on it. We have museum in Port de Grave district, a fishermen's museum, It gives on P pleasure to go down to see the collections that have been gathered into that over these past few years. While I was sitting down here, my good friend here and colleague, Mr. Brendan Howard, passed over a note about the "Kyle". Now back in the thirties I had travelled on the "Kyle" back and forth to Labrador with as high as from seven hundred to one thousand people.

And Lo and Hehold! the generation today would not ordinarily dare think where our tiller was at that time, jambed probably down between the claws and the grapnel, In these days, every time they would pass by in Harbour Grace, the old "Kyle" was very familiar to me and I wondered why there was not something done about it.

If, Sir, the money had been used in a correct and a goodly manner, with our past government, we would have had something done, We have lots of monuments on the Newfoundland Island, in the Province of Newfoundland, and we have one great historical site on Roche's Line and another historical site at Holyrood, When I was on the Salmonier Line with a crowd of loggers, years and years ago, my men notified me that they needed a pair of rubber boots. I got aboard of my truck and I proceeded to Clarke's Beach where there was a dealer handling the boots which were made at the Rubber Plant, at Holyrood.

I picked up eleven pairs of rubber boots. I made my way back to Salmonier Line to give them to the men that needed them to keep their feet dry. Lo and Behold! As I sat down to put them on, and when they came to they had every boot for the left foot. I say, Sir, this government need step into, to look into historical sites. We need to make a better job of looking after our historical sites than what has been done for the monuments that are left with us , to find the money to try to maintain, 19,'7 . ... ,

June 8, 1972 Tape . 636 NB - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: We are looking after our rubber boots. MR. YOUNG: I have . no doubts, Mr. Chairman, that this government are not like the rubber boots, we are starting off on the right foot. I cannot let this pass, Sir, without speaking about the historic district of Harbour Grace. I know Sir, that there are a lot of things of ancient history down in Harbour Grace such as the Court House. I remember there not too long ago the ijducation Minister telling me that he flew over Carbonear Island. The remains of a building, the foundations, is still visable there.

We have old headstones in our area. One that recalls to memory, Sir, is the one about a fellow we all know,Joseph Dover AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. YOUNG: You will have one marked. Four years time boy. It is a dandy, AN RON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. YOUNG: I am sure, Sir, that as the previous government have erected a lot of monuments themselves, we will in this government restore some of the older ones. I assure you, Sir, and I assure the hon. Leader and members on the other side that it is going to be a long while yet before we lose our Island Cove wit. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I just like to make a few comments about the historical sites in Newfoundland. Of course, I suppose Bonavista North probably plays second fiddle only to Bonavista South as far as historical sites are concerned. The town of Greens Pond, Mr. Chairman, is ·one of the oldest towns in Newfoundland, In this town you will find some very old buildings indeed. You will even find some very old people. I was talking mid-March to Mr. Coward there, He was 96 years old. I was not talking to him in his house. He was out bringing in wood at 96 years. An amasing old gentleman.

Of course the history of Greens Pond goes back a long ways. I am sure there are records on the Island of Greens Pond that should be pre­ served, especially in the old court house there. It is interesting to note that in the Wesleyville area the people there can boast of two things. One of course they are proud of and the other 19'i'8

June a. 1972 . Tape 636 NB - 3 one at the present time they are not so proud of. I will take the worse one first. Captain w.c. Winsor has a very famous house there and it is still standing to this day. It is one of the old captain's houses. The noteworthy thing about Captain Winsor, or the political thing about him is that he was the Minister of Fisheries in the Alderdyce government of 1932. I am sure the members from the other side will - no Wesleyvillian will appreciate this gentleman very much. but not in a political sense, We do in an historical sense, Captain Abraham Cain• I believe his house still stands.

You , may correct me if I am wrong. He was the only Newfoundlander ever to bring in 1,000,000 seals from the ice flows. Captain Abraham Cain! To my knowledge in the district of Bonavista North, we have today only one of the Labrador scooners afloat. Just one in Bonavista North today,afloat. There were I believe some thirty or thirty-five,possibly thirty years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: She is in Wesleyville. I forget the name of her although I have been aboard of her, Mr. Lester Andrews owns her, by the way in case you wonder II ., - Dorothy Marie.

There again while this is going to Bonavista South and the member from Bonavista South is absent and has been for a few days, just close to Eastport in one of the coves, apparently there was a scuffle between a French man of war and a British man of war and the Englishman came off best with it and the man of war from the French nation is at the bottom of one of the coves there, I believe it is only in ten fathoms of water. I believe the cannohs are still in it or in the cove. they were a couple of summers ago. I was Then again, Sir. I would just like to make a comment on the Funk· Islands.

Bonavista North claims that the Funk Islands are part of my district. There we or history saw the extinction of the Great Auk some years ago. To my knowledge I believe you can dig up skeltons of the Great Auk right now on the Funk Islands. Apparently, this may be amusing, the bones are preserved 19'i'9

June 8, 1972 Tape 636 NB - 4 in the droppings of ot~er birds, Somewhere a year or so ago I read an

article on it by some professor, I really cannot give you the date nor the name of the professor. These are some of the things in my district. Just to relate a l!IOre recent historical one, and of course the two previous hon, members who spoke would not possibly agree with me or possibly look upon it aa an amusing thing, but Minp; Brook is the birth pl~e of the greatest Newfoundlander ever. Of course you know who I am speaking about. It is a.nu1zing to note that Sunday I visited an old lady in Gambo, Mrs. Anastasia Kelley, and she was one of the ladies who baby~sitted the previous premier, way ba.ck in_l901, something like this. 1980

June 8, 1972. Tape 637 Page 1, She. is in her rocking chair, she has all her faculties, she can reminisce, and she can tell you now the days of the early nineties, or twentieth century when she came to Gambo, She originated from St. Brendan's. She was a White from St. Brendan's. These are just some of the points ,Mr. Chairman, that I would like for the honourable Minister to note. MR.DAWE: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to prolong this debate any longer than it is absolutely necessary but there are a couple of comments I would like to make in this connection.

Naturally, before sitting in this House tonight I did not realize there were so many topics which could be brought to light concerning the P·rovincial Affairs Department. Despite the fact that we have many objects in Newfoundland today which relate to our heritage, many o.f them which are immovable, Nany, unfortunately,which are movable, which are being moved to other provinces of Canada, I am very much interested in antiques and I like to collect them whenever it is possible to come across them but in my travels in recent years I have discovered that they are becoming more and more scarce.

I, particularly am interested in old guns, the old muskets which the people of Newfoundland used in years gone by. I like guns in general,whether they are old or young or new or what. But in my travels in looking for antiques, I have among my collection old kettles, old teapots, old saucepans, so on , made of cast iron and so on. In my travels I invariably come across people in various communities who tell me that, (:yes, I had an old gun here, I had an old pot or an old kettle or something or other, but last week this guy was down here frQm Ontario in a van and he bought it.

He gave me fifty cents or he gave me a dollar, or a dollar fifty, I let it go ,it was no good to me'.'~ Not thinking of course that it might be valuable 1ust as a M.storical thing as a rem:!.nder of our 1981

June 8, 1972, Tape 637. Page 2. heritage, because it was of no particular value to them they just let it go, I have met up'lllith other people and spoken to other people who have thrown many of these antiques on dumps, That is where they rested until they rotted away or rusted away or whatever happens to those metal things. I would like to see some legislation brought to this House or the Provincial Affairs Department 1 indeed that is the department that is responsible for it.

Legislating against the exportation or the taking out of this province of such antique and no doubt invaluable objects to the people of Newfoundland · today. Many places, I was out in Bonavista, they have a small museum but it is only a very small room, very limited display, but what is there is very interesting indeed, I had the opportunity last year to view it. I was most interested in it. The history behind many of these objects is indeed fascinating.

It is unforturtate that we do not have around our connnunities and around our shores around Newfoundland in general more of these little museums. they have a beautiful museum in Port de Grave, ~ understand. A couple of years ago, :f.t was sort of a voluntary thinp; , persons got together and they contributed what they had, their old antique pieces. It was ouite an attraction for some time but I think now it has been dispensed with and the objects have been taken to the individual pri ,,ate owners.

I think that in some way perhaps our Newfoundland Government or the Department of Provincial Affairs should take a greater interest, in some way perhaps set up some sort of an agency which would collect these items. In any event Mr. Chairman, as I said I do not want to prolong my remarks but I certainly would like to see some.legislation which would prohibit the taking away of these objects: where if a van load of these things were to appear on the docks in Port aux Basques to be transferred across the waters there to Nova Scotia, they would be prevented from 1982

June 8, 1972. Tape 63'1. Page 3. doing so and that they would have to return these things to the province of Newfoundland. MR.WILSON: Mr, Chairman, I would like to interject here for the infomation of the honourable minister. Nothing in Port de Grave Museum have been disbanded. It is stronger than ever. It is there to stay. I have myself, played a great

part in that ever since it started. I am still standing yet,so is the museum. MR.AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman, I owe it to the ancient and historic district of Placentia to at least record the significance historically of that great distrjct. MR.CHAIRMAN: ( inaudible) MR.AYLWARD: An hour will do me very easily Mr. Chairman, yes, by all means. I certainly do not think Mr. Chairman, that you should restrict I suppose the only district with real history in the province, that is the district of Placentta. But, certainly, I will bear your remarks in mind. No, Mr.

Cltaiman, the only point I would U.ke to make I think that we have very little money for this very important aspect of our history. So, I feel that probably the Minister of Municipal Affairs should have special areas for concentration, I certainly suggest to him that the district and of course the town of Placentia form one of these special a.reas, because as everyone knows Placentia itself was the French Capital of this province when we had, before the island was a province of course, when we had two capitals · here. Also, Mr.

Chairman, I would strongly suggest to the minister that perhaps he could obtain great benefit from investing some funds or providing these historical societies in places like Placentia with some funds. I know in my district there is an anthropol~gist from the mainland who has started a historical society. He has done some wonderful work, the society is now trying to acquire some of the century homes in the area to put in displays and acquire some of 1983

June 8, 1972. · Tape 63'1. Page 4. the old historic pieces in the area. Also, of course, it is very important in Placentia because there are so many tourist .s coming into the area and as soon as they get o.ff the fei:ry they are very ,very interested in this. J strongly sugr,est to the minister that when he considers a special area. for historical purposes that he consider the district and the t ~wn of Placentia. On motion total subhead 501 carried . On motion total subhead 502 carried. Subhead 511: MR.WOODWARD: 511 -03, }tr. Chaii:man, may I speak for just a second?

Would the honourable minister explain the travelling of the F.mergency Measures , Is Emergencies Measures available to the whole of the province or a-re the services of the Rmergencv Measures consigned only to ai:eas where we have Emergency Measures ServicEs? MR.MURl'llY: Mr. Chairman, Emergency Measures are available. There are different areas set un now, quite frankly I am not sure if there is one in the 1984

June 8, 1972 - Tape 638 Labrador Area but I will certainly find out and it is something ongoing actually and I will say this now,and there are one or two words I would like to add and I do not wish to delay this any more. But it is a quarter past ten and another forty-five minutes will not kill any of us. JM - 1 There are two references made to Provincial Affairs, one with the tourist department.

Now I have contended for years that they work hand in hand and I hope that the committee when sizing up the whole situation will look at this area because after all this department looks after historic sites and various other matters that tourists come to see. If could combine this with tourist development, all right.

Now the reason for saying that is this fact that EMO,in my opinion, should be a part of .Justice Department because it relates to police, fire department and everything else, So I am just throwing this out, Sir, for the attention of the minister because I know he is very anxious to provide the best service he can. So it is just a thought I had that that should be a part - and I am only tryin~ to be fair to areas like Labrador where there are police stationed in the form of RCMP and different other areas and we are doing our best, Sir, to try to spread what we get from Ottawa to EMO to every area of the province.

If there is any further information that the member would like to get or any discussion I would like for him to come in and discuss it with iny official,in the office down there, Major Owen. MR. WOODWARD: ~--- ----- Mr. Chairman, if I may please. How many emergency measures organizations are there in the province, besides the one·pertalning to St. John's? Do we have one that is equipped in any other city like on the West Coast? MR. MURPHY: I would say they are represented in Corner Brook and Grand Falls,as far as I know. 1985

June 8, 1972 Tape 638 JM - 2 MR. WOODWARD: But to what degree do we have representatives, Mr. Chainnan, this is the thing that - Are we equipped to do emergency measure services as such? MR. MURPHY: In co-operation with the police and what not. I will get the full information tomorrow for the member and let him know. On motion, sub-head 511, 522, carried. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could the minister tell us is there any particular reason for reducing this vote from $5,000 to $2,500? 531(01)(07): MR. MURPHY: I do not think there is any particular reason, quite frankly.

They are a group of volunteer citizens and I ~hink they just comply with one person to sort of co-ordinate their efforts. They are provided an office in the legislative buildinp.,in the old legislative building on Military Road. So I think basically their only over.head is this par.t­ time worker to keep records and what not but anythinp, pertaining with anythini;:,: historical our staff will work closely with them. MR. NEARY : Austerity programme, MR. MURPHY: Austerity, I imagine, willed to us by certain people. 531(01)(08): If I may refer to this, Sir..

In referring to this we are very proud indeed to restore this wonderful demonstration, this pageant to the people of the province. As you know it was in effect for a few years and then i.t was cut out for two years but through the efforts of our department this year we have revived it and it is a wonderful.tourist attraction. In addition, I think, and just as important if not more important, Mr. Chairman, it will provide employment for some fifty-three young men, college students or high school students and they will earn approximately $880 each for the five or six or seven weeks of the summer.

Sot think it is a very great thing. I would like also while I am on my feet,and I should have done it before, to pay tribute to the joint service cadets for the tremendous 1986

June 8, 1972 - Tape 638 JM - 3 display they put on in St. John's last week in this pageant that they staged under the auspices of the Rotary Club. I think it was a credit to them and I firmly believe that if we had many more of these things we would not have so much worry about building correction homes or penitentiaries or anything else. So this is money well invested. ?-~. TH~MS: Mr. Chairman, could the honourable Minister tell us what nrogress has been made with regard to the resumption of the tattoo? What progress has been made and approximately what date will this come into effect? MR.

MURPHY: To my recollection I think about the 25th of June. I am not sure on that now or is July. If that is not correct.I will certainly let the honourable member know. MR. THOMS:_ This I presume is the salaries for these people. No, no, this is our arrangement. Actuall ,y we have it under the Federal grant this year and I think we agreed to supply meals for the boys~ transporation and meals. ~o they have to be brouP,ht to the site and fed and this is the province's contrihution which t think is well invested. On motion, sub-·head 531, carried • MR. THOMS: . 'i32(02) (04): Mr.

Chairman, I was just wonderinr. it looks like the operating grants in Corner Brook, Grand Falls and Gander are somewhat smaller than the operating grant in St. John's. Could the honourable minister explain this to us? Why should St. John's get everything and the rest of the country get nothing, this is what it means? MR . MURPHY: ------------ Well, possibly it might seem that way but the St. John's one is the Provincial Arts and Culture Centre basically and I think its activities are a~out ten times as much as the others. The staff is probably not too much higher.

It houses many other things such as the library and so on and so forth. So basically it costs more to 1987 r.·

June 8, 1972 Tape 638 JM - 4 operate for that reason and there are many, many attractions put on over there that are brought in like ballets and this type of thin~ that are more educational perhaps than - We could brinp in an Irish hand and block the place every night the week but then there is a certain area or group of people who like the culture bit and it has to be art and culture also. So on these thinr,s the people do not really block her off to get to see it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY : That is rip,ht. The honourable member for Bell Island, his curling team and all his crowd. MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the honourable minister, does ,the City of St. John's contribute anything to the overall expenses of the Arts anrl Culture Centre? MR. MURPHY: I would say that they contribute about ninety per-cent. The citizens pay the freip