VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JULY 7, 1981 No. 74

July 7, 1981 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. SPEAl<ER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 3092 , PK - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like on behhalf of government to extend sincere condolences to the families and friends of those who so tragically lost their lives in the recent disaster of the Arctic Explorer. Such an event obviously serves to remind us all of the fraility of life but at the same time somehow binds people closer together in common friendship. It was in this· spir~t, Mr.

Speaker, that the staff of my office yesterday came to the aid of eight relatives of the deceased who were residing in Labrador City and were unable to·avail of themselves of reservations to travel to the Island portion of the Province to be present with other members of those families in their hour of need. We were indeed most happy to have been of assistance to those people and we would certainly like to remind them once again that my office stands ready and willing to help in whatever manner may be deemed necessary to alleviate in some small way the sorrow caused by this disaster. Mr.

Speaker, this sad affair has once again brought to public attention the limited canability of search and rescue facilities in this Province. A small Search and Rescue scruadron is currently stationed at Gander· This group of people and equipment have performed well when the need arises and I pay tribute to their skill and their efforts. Howeve~ they have limited long range search capability and need to be supported by fixed wing aircraft with the capability to 821?.

July 7, 1981 Tape 3092 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: conduct a large scale search over open water. Currently the actual search for a vessel in trouble has to be carried out by fixed wing aircraft stationed in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. In this latest inc .ident 1 I am informed it took the planes a number of hours to reach the search location after they had been notified. If the search planes had been stationed at Gander 1the response time could have been cut drastically and the suffering endured by the survi~ors could have been correspondingly reduced. This government,together with our MPs , Mr.

Crosbie and Mr. McGrath,have consistently requested the federal authorities to upgrade their Search and Rescue capabilities in this Province. I have today renewed that request of the federal government and I fervently hope that the appropriate action will be forthcoming. Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak on behalf of all members of this House and when I say that once again,as in the past,marine disasters have played quite a

part in the history in the development of this Province, and it is a sad day again today obviously to have to stand in my place to record our sorrow at this latest incident. We hope that our capabilities as a country and as a Province can be improved so that if it is possible to reduce some of these tragedies,then every effort should be made so to do. I hereby table the statement. B 21 3

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3093 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Opposition. MR.STIRLING: MR.SPEAKER: minutes. MR.STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Has how many minutes? About one and a half Mr. Speak~r, of course we were all saddened on this side of the House as well as everybody have been in Newfoundland and Labrador,and in that respect let me join with the members on the government side in extending our sincere condolences. And I hope that the Premier will agree that the Speaker should write the families involved. But dealing with the sad affair itself, Mr.

Speaker, I am not satisfied,as I am sure most members of this House of Assembly are not satisfied with the information that is available. One of the areas, for example 1is why was there no communication? It seems that,for example,there are government planes, provincial government planes stationed, forestry planes stationed at Gander. I am sure that if they were aware of a problem they would have been pressed into service. I am sure that the ministers would have given up any use of the government plane and that itself could have been pressed into service.

So I do not think we should get involved with the red herring of how long it takes to come from PEI. I would propose, Mr. Speaker, and I would hope that the Premier could join me in an unanimous resolution now,that we request of our federal partners, in the interes~ of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are Canadians living in this part of the Country, that we ask for a joint study by the provincial and federal government, funded, as is the normal thing, ninety/ten by the federal gover~ment,into the whole requirement for B 21 4

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3093 ah -2 MR. STIRLING: more effective communications, the need for air/sea rescue service in Newfound land and Labrador base don the increased development in the offshore - and this particular vessel was chartered for the offshore . SO , Mr.

Speaker, in that context I propose that the Premier agree now and we take the time now because it is of a emergency nature and use the time of the House to have an immediate debate on the nee:i for a joint stu::l.y by the Prov ince and the fed eral government,funded by the federal government with some contributi on from the Province,of the total .~ ~or air/sea rescue in this Province. o~ com pletely the ~ for any other part of the Province but the whole offshore, the question for improved communication because ·it is the second tragedy where the problem appears to be communication. MR.SPEAKER (Simms ) : MR.

STIRLING: MR. SPEAJ<ER: S<ME E!CN. MEMBERS: PRE tUER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: PRE MIER PECKFORD: OrdP.r, please! By leave, Mr.Speaker. By leave. Is there leave. By leave. In response The hon. the Premier. -I do not agree with the joint resolution, Mr. Speaker. 'Ihere is no need of an extra study. ~·lbat is needed now is ti215

July 71 1981 Tape No. 3.094 EC-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: action. As it relates to planes that the Province has, these planes are completely inadequate for this job, completely , and totally inadequate; they do not do anything but serve to frustrate what is a highly technical matter. We have this morning wired Mr. Pepin and Mr. Lamontagne. We have consistently over the last several years demonstrated factually the kinds of requirements that we should have in this Province for Search and Rescue. A study is unnecessary and therefore I cannot go along with the resolution.

I would ask the Leader of the Opposition, as I did in my statement, to support us in our request to the federal government to immediately put fixed-wing aircraft in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. By leave. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, in the spirit of by leave. I did give up the floor. Mr. Speaker, putting a few fixed­ wing aircraft in Newfoundland is not going to solve a problem in the middle of the fog or in the middle of the Winter or off the Coast of Labrador.

What we really need is a fresh look by both the Province and the federal govenment at what is needed to do the entire fob in Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: withdrawn. (Inaudible) withdraw leave. Order, please! Order, please! I understand leave has now been The motion was for the Speaker to express condolences, I believe, on behalf of all members of the House to the families of those who were lost in the tragedy. Those in Favour, signify by saying 'Aye'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR. SPEAKER: Contrary, 'Nay'? Carried. ~ 21 R

July 7, 1981 Tape 3094 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Further statements. The hon. the Minister of Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am extremely pleased to be able to advise the hon. House of the results of meetings held with the Anaconda Aluminum Company during a recent visit by the hon. the Premier and myself to Louisville, Kentucky.

The purpose of these meetings was to pursue Anaconda's interest in evaluating the establish­ ment of an aluminum smelter in the Province using hydro­ electric power from the Churchill River~ These discussions formed part of government's overall strategy for Labrador hydro-electric development. It was a year ago that the Lower Churchill Development Corporation presented its report to the federal and provincial governments and it recommended that in the absence of markets for surplus Gull Island power a start should be made on the smaller project located at Muskrat Falls.

However, both levels of government agreed that the Gull Island project was the preferred form of Lower Churchill development in view of the capacity of Gull to meet growing provincial energy demand at a per unit energy cost about 40 per cent lower than the Muskrat project in addition to giving the Province an opportunity to develop energy intensive industry. Government has taken the position that a combination of export sales and industrial develop­ ment would be the preferred disposition of surplus Gull power.

Therefore government have been pursuing discussions with customers and export markets and have been holding discussions with a number of energy intensive industries B 21 7

July 7, 1981 Tape 3094 EC - 3 MR. \'ITNDSOR: with a view to finding the most suitable industry from the standpoint of employment generation and environmental protection. Discussions with industry have been part of government 's overall Labrador resou .rce development strategy which will encourage the use of Labrador resources and would overcome the obstacles of isolation and transportation. With respect to Labrador development , go vernment bas been undertaking feasibility studie s into year -round shippi .ng through Lake Melville. This work has been undertaken in co -operation with the federal government and has H21A

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3095 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: involved the use of federal ice breakers and an ice reinforced bulk cargo carrier. The trial voyages of the cargo carrier MV Arctic and the ice breaker Franklin have proven to be highly successful. These tests will be cont~nued this coming Winter with federal assistance and evidence accumulated to date suggests that year-round operation is both technically and economically feasible. Disucssions with Anaconda have been taking place over the past two years. Durin~ this time the company has made several visits to the Province.

The main purpose of these visits has been to discuss the availability of power and the rates to be charged. The company has been looking at a number of potential sites for an aluminum smelter, including locations on the Island as well as in Labrador. The Anaconda company is a subsidiary of Atlantic Richfield Company. Anaconda Aluminum employs approximately 6,600 people at seventeen plants around the world. Its operations are ~iqhly integrated ranging from bauxite mining and al~ refining to the manufacture of commercial end products.

These end products include sheet aluminum foil extrusions, packaging and building materials. MR. NEARY: Never mind that. What alxmt this Province? HR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, could I be protected from the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: The company is one of the largest producers of aluminum in the United States. Its head office is located in Louisville, Kentucky, where it also operates a rolling mill and fabricating plants.

The company has a relatively new plant located in Sebree, Kentucky, which is one of the most highly sophisticated aluminum reduction plants in the world. The Sebree plant is used as a model of high environmental standards in the United States. The level of l:l 2 HI

JulJl 7, 1981 Tape No. 3095 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: emissions from this plant is extremely low and tests have shown that the effects upon the environment are negligible. Discussions with the President and other senior staff of Anaconda have reached the point where the company is prepared to participate in a joint feasibility study into a Newfoundland aluminum operation. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WINDSO:R: It is intended that this study will evaluate both Island and Labrador sites and that it would be cost shared on an equal basis up to a maximum total cost of $SOQ,QQQ.

A joint management team from Anaconda and government have been established to conduct this study and it is intended that it be completed by the end of the present year. Government is encouraged with the interest shown by Anaconda and confirmed by the company's agreement to invest money in a feasibility study. In addition to this investment,the company intends to devote a significant amount of senior management time to this project. Mr. Speaker, this statement has been reviewed by Anaconda officials who concur with its contents.

Both Anaconda and government look forward to the completion of a feasibility study and would hope that this would lead to the conclusion of a mutually satisfactorv nevelooment. MR. NEARY: Yo_u talk about a prenature annot=ement. MR. SPEAKER (Simmsl: Order, please! MR. WINDSOR: The st.udy, Mr. Speaker, is a result of a number of efforts undertaken by the Department of Development and other government departments over the past number of years 1 beginning, in fact, in the early 1970s with discussions with numerous companies and has intensified since early 19.79.

Approximately fifteen months ago Newfoundland Hydro and the Depart.ment of Development commissioned the e22n

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3096 IB-1 MR. WINDSOR: Power Marketing Study which identified the aluminum industry as the most likely customer for Labrador power. The subsequent industrial promotion campaign identified a number of companies which have been very interested in pursuing a development in our Province, and a number of these companies are still, I would like to emphasis, still interested in addition to Anaconda although Anaconda has now taken this step of joining with the Province to f~nance this study. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): has three minutes. Hear, hear! The han. Leader of the Opposition MR.

STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I can understand why the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has to wait outside. He cannot come in here today because he was the one who reprimanded the Minister of Development for making this statement down in Kentucky and denied the press report, said there was nothing to it, no truth to it and•we, as a government, never make these kinds of statements, we never make any premature statements. When we make a statement you will have the industries committed, signed and there will 8nly be the money to be spent.' And now, Mr. Speaker,- MR.

NEARY: Only Joey used to do that. They do not make premature statements. MR. STIRLING: - there just might be an election this Fall - MR. DAWE: Grasping for straws. MR. STIRLING: - therejust might be an election this Fall. This is to try to prop up the situation - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pl-:ase! MR. STIRLING: - in both Naskaupi and Corner Brook,because they have been very careful not to mention which area they are talking about for the smelter. And 8221

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3096 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: if people can live on hope, this is now extended to the end of the year,the hope. MR. NEARY: Oh 1 yes. MR. STIRLING: Come by Chance was going to be operating in ninety days from the time that he became leader,and that was about two years and ninety days ago. Now we have a situation in which this was denied, no truth to it, no such thing as a statement in the press, all denied. And now it appears that a company has talked to government- this government who are so tough, who can tell industry what they do-this government is now committed to $250 million, is it?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! - - -· - MR. HODDER: For $250,000. MR. STIRLING: $250,000. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER \SIMMS): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: The minister has not told us how much they have committed themselves to this company to put in the plant, the construction of the plant. Will he deny that they have given any indication to the aluminum company that they will be spending any money or that they will guarantee a bond issue or that they will guarantee financing? What they have committed themselves to is $250,000 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh; MR.

NEARY: Anaconda will write that off as income tax. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, they have committed themselves - MR. NEARY: The poor old taxpayers of Newfoundland will pay the government's share. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - to $250,000 to do what? They have been meeting with them for two years - tl22?.

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3097 EL - 1 MR. WARRE;N: Two years, right. MR. STIRLING: -two years of meetings - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. STIRLING: Two years of meetings, Mr. Speaker, and they are now ready to spend $250,000 as their share to try to find out whether or not this aluminum smelter can go ahead at an acceptable rate. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is about the fourth time that this has been announced and now we have an announcei[Lent that an announcement is going to come after the government spends $250,000 doing a study to find out if a company can set up in Labrador. Mr.

Speaker, if this is the best effort after two years, God help us with everything else that this government has been doing for two years. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAI<ER: The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (H.Newhook). In view of the fact that two of the members - Tiumber Valley (W. House)_ and Humber East (L.Verge)-have noF publicly stated that as a result of their involvement that the memo of June 19th has been res- cinded and that now Corner Brook and Deer Lake do not have to accept the dictate of.

Municipal Affairs, that they can use their own priorities, w:Juld the minister confirm that she has now written the town of Deer Lake and the town of Corner Brook-because, as she knows, they cannot accept the word .Jf any politician; under the act they can only deal with the minister - has the minister now written the town of Deer Lake and the town of Corner Brook and told them that they can now use their own priorities for the spending of the money that was approved as a loan under the Municipal Grant this year? 8223

., July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3097 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS • NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, a telegram has gone out to the city council in Corner Brooke and we have asked them to establish their priorities under the approved fundinq and let us knciw exactly what they intend to do with that funding, what roads they intend to pave. And we have not received an answer from Corner Brook as yet. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. the Do I understand from the minister then that they have now changed the practice and that all that Corner Brook, the city of.Corner Brook and the town of Deer Lake, all that they now have to do is advise the minister of their priorities and they will be automatically approved by the minister? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, we do ask them to not- ify us of their priorities.

If it does not agree with the names of the streets that they have given us stating that this is what they wish to C.o, if this is not now a priority with the city or with the towns, then we ask them to c-ome back and seek the minister's approval. And normally it is given. ~224

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3098 ah-1 MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The Mr.

Speaker, would the minister,in view of the comments being made publicly in Corner Brook by the minister and by the - by two ministexs; on~ from Humber Valley and one from Humber East- that these two towns,Corner Brook and Deer Lake, could now use their own prioritie~-and the minister has now hedged their bets by saying that normally you would approve the priorities established by this city and this town - under what set of circumstances would you not have approved their priorities? MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: The hon. Minister of Mr.

Speaker, this is our standard practice all across the Province. We have to make sure that they are not going to be paving somebody's back lane or somebody's driveway or something like that. There is usually no problem with them when they come back and establish their priorities. I do not know of any time we would say to them, 'I am sorry we do not agree with them.' But if the money is being spent wisely,well,then there is no problem with our approving when the towns come back with their ~sts. When they come back with their request there is no problem if these are reasonable. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. It is about time I think now that - MR. POWER: Forests, Resources and Lands is the right title. ~ 2 2 .s

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3098 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Well,I do not know what it is. Whatever it is. They change them so often we cannot - they change the portfolios so often we cannot keep up to them. But it is time now, Mr. Speaker, we dealt with this matter of the land on the Gander River, land that has been taken over from the Newfoundland Telegraph Company and put in the hands of a company called Newfoundland Colonisation and Mining Company Limited.

Now my first question to the minister in connection with this - and I have a number of questions I want to ask the minister - but my first question to the minister is did Newfoundland Colonisation and Mining Company Limited - which is registered in Mississauga, Ontario, represented by Mr. Gordon M. Stirling, Q. C. , Royal Trust Building in St. John's ; and the director of the company, Mr.

Jolyon David Finch - did these people ask the Newfoundland Government or submit a plan to the minister's department for development on the Gander Rive~ which I understand involves the whole area from First Pond to Fourth Pond involving about 6300 acre~ of prime Newfoundland territory? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon.Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. HR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, in relationship to the question of lands owned by Newfoundland Colonisation and Mining along the Gander River part of the Province 1 let it be understood that they own about 6,000 acres of land which they have full title and ownership to along the Gander River or immediately adjoining it. Of course, there is a fifty foot reserve enforced very strongly by this government to make sure that nobody can control waterfront properties in Newfoundland, that that piece of land that they have is their own land, that they are in the process of,according to

an act which we ha ve in this legislature,

an act forcing ~226

.. July 7, 1981 Tape 3099 PK - 1 MR. POWER: persons with more than 300 acres of land in this Province,forcing persons to use that land , that somebody in that company,either the local representatives or the representatives in Ontario,had made it known to our government that they intend to submit a plan . to government for the development of that land in two areas, basically land for recreational cottages in one sense, and also to harvest the budworm damaged timber in another sense.

So as far as we understand it, we have been notified that a plan is forthcoming which then will be considered by government in due course. MR. NEARY: A sUPPl~tary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is <1 IH'~~,r t~1ist.

Is the hon. gentleman saying that Newfoundland Colonisation and Mining Company Limited- and I would suspect that the mining part of it is just a camouflage- have gone ahead with a major development,advertised building lots for sale in a mainland newspaper at $30,000 a building lot,which can only appeal to millionaires and foreign · : owners, that they have gone ahead with this huge development of 6,300 acres of prime land on the banks of the Gander River without submitting a development plan to his depprtment or to this government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest, Resources, and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as I ·explained in my answer to the first question, a plan is about to be submitted to government. No plan has been submitted to our knowledge, no advertising has taken place. I have received a great amount of information and input from the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook) 1 8227

July 7, 1981 Tape 3099 PK ~ 2 MR. POWER: who has exerted great efforts on behalf of many constituents in the area who have some concerns about the develop~ent along Gander Lake. No development has been approved, no forestry projects have begun in the area 1 and no lots have· been sold and no lots have been advertised for that given development. A plan is about to be submitted to government 1 so we understand. When it is submitted to government, it will be considered in due course.

And I am sure that when we consider it as a Cabinet and as a government we will take into considerations all of the things that come in­ to play with the ownership of that land. And certainly first and foremost will be the rights of Newfoundlanders to be protected. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the bon. member for Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman just made a statement that the land has not been advertised for sale.

I have the ad from the mainland paper only I cannot lay my finger on it right now- it may be dmm in the office, I meant to bring it with me this afternoon- I have the ad in the paper, where Mr. Finch and Newfoundland · Colonisation have already advertised that land on the mainland for sale without submitting a development plan. And the bon. gentleman's department is building a road at taxpayer expense - MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Finch. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. on ' a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! - to develop that property for Oh, oh! Order, please!

A point of order, the bon. ~22R

·, July 7, 1981 Tape 3099 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman - I mean this is the Question Period - the hon. gentleman is obviously making a speech and a bad one at that. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): I was about to direct the bon. member t.o ask his supplementary. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon gentleman how come the taxpayers of this Province are building a road to develop that piece of property that 6,300 acres of property under the assumption that it is a road to forests in this Province that will benefit Mr •. ~o;tyon . oavid Finch and his company called Newfoundland Colonisation?

You would not know but they are going to settle here for the first time, Mr. Speaker; the name he has on his company is an insult to Newfoundlanders. Why is that road being bu:i,lt? How much is it costing the taxpayers? Would the hon. gentleman give the House that information? ~22!1

_.._ July 7, 1981 Tape 3100 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again, as in many cases in the past, the facts that are quoted by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) are not, in fact, facts. What we have done is not built a road for the person who has proposed the development, a development, Mr. Speaker, that is, in the case of the forestry sense, to harvest some budworm damaged timber that is dead and dying along that part of the Province.

We have given permission to cross 3,000 feet of Crown land in order to get access to some severely damaged budworm timber along that part of the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, if someone opposite is suggesting that we should not give permission - which costs the government nothing - to get to a resource which has a great value and which, if not used in the next five years, will rot and decay anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is not the kind of logic we use in developing our management plans. SOME HON~ MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPE1\KER: member for LaPoile. Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Spe~ker.

A supplementary, the hen. the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, listen to them, 'Hear, hear~' It is a wonder they do not start pounding their little paws on the desk again, their little flippers. There they go. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: What we need in the Speaker's gallery, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - we need four or five violins t123n

July 7, 1981 Tape 3100 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: so when-we get answers like that the violins will start playing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker, that was a very weak-kneed answer indeed. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. NEARY: The question I put to the hon. gentleman was this, this road that is being built on Mr. Finch's - is he Lord Finch, by the way, is this a lord? He is not a lord, is he? MR. POWER: He may be, I am not sure. MR. NEARY: Well, the road that is being built on Mr.

Finch's land - Newfoundland and Mining company - will benefit Mr. Finch more than anybody else because it is opening up over 6,300 acres of land for development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I want to ask the hon. gentleman, when they decided to build that road was it done in conjunction with Mr. Finch and his company? Was the government not aware at the time that Mr.

Finch and company, COlonisation and Mining Company, were going to put that land up for sale , they were going to sell it anywhere they could in the world to foreign owners; That we would have the same problem as they have in Nova Scotia with foreign ownership in this Province? Was the hon. gentleman aware of this or did it take the Liberal Association in Gander to make the hon. gentleman aware of that development on the Gander River? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I am aware, ~231

July 7, 1981 Tape 3100 EC - 3 MR. POWER: no Liberal Association has made this Province aware of anything in the last ten or twelve years or so. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NE!ARY: MR. POWER: Hear, hear! There are the flippers again. Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the road, in getting access to timber resources which are there, one of the problems that we have in this province is that many acres of"Newfoundland property were given ,away in years past. We, under this government, brought in

an act in 1974 that forces persons to use the resources that they have, that they have gotten either directly or indirectly, rightfully or wrongfully 1from the p~lic, th ,e people of Newfoundland. By our act we ~232

July 7, 1981 Tape NO. 3101 EL - 1 MR. POWER: are forcing persons to use the resource to make sure it is for the benefit of Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Finch or someone else may benefit from us giving permission to build a 3,000 foot road. But what I am concerned about, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that if we go in there and we give permission for them to build a road at their own expense,that we will have many Newfoundlanders who are employed in cutting the wood, We will have many Newfoundlanders employed in transporting the wood and we will create some jobs badly needed in New­ foundland and we will a part of our resource that if not used in the next five years is going to rot and decay anyway. Mr. Speaker, from our point of view, that is good management. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Does the hon. member for Torngat Mountains yield to the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary)? MR. WARREN: I yield. MR. SPEAKER: tains yields. MR. NEARY: The hon. member for Torngat Moun- The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, now let us get back to the question of how Newfoundland Telegraph received this land in the first place, why they were granted this land. I understand they were granted large tracts of lands in various parts of Newfoundland and I believe part of it was in Come by Chance, where the oil refinery is located. And in return,pay­ ment was to be one peppercorn a year.

Now, would the hon. gen­ tleman tell us if Newfoundland Telegraph lived up to the terms and conditions of their gran~ Before they sold this lanp to Mr. Finch 1 did they live up to ~he terms and conditions of their ti233

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3101 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: grant? Or did they unload the land because the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan), when he was the Minister of Forestry, brounht- . in i'l t<" x on unused land in this Province, was that whatstirred them up? Now, has the hon. gentleman has his legal people do the research to see if the Newfoundland Telegraph have lived up to the terms and con­ ditions of receiving that land in the first place and before they turned it over to Mr. Finch? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Forests Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, we intend that all land owners in the Province, whether they be over 300 acres or less will obey and abide by the laws of this Province 1 one of which relates to the development ann use of the resource. In this case, Newfoundland Colinisationand Mining will be treated no differently than any other company that does business in Newfoundland. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: tains yield? MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY : Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Does the member for Torngat Moun- I yield. The hon. member for LaPoile.

I have a number of other cruestions but I will ask my final supplementary for the day"to the hon. gentleman. Would the hon. gentleman tell us now what happens to all the cabins that Newfoundlanders have built on the banks of the Gander River? Will they be forced to remove these cabins? And would the hon. gentleman tell us the government's position on foreign ownership in this Province? If this land is to be advertised and sold to millionaires in various parts of the world who will come in and occupy the banks of the Gander, does the government go along with that?

Does the government approve, con­ done this land being sold to foreign owners? That is two questions. e234

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3101 EL - 3 MR. NEARY: What happens to the cabins that -are there already and what is the government's policy on for~ eign ownership in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Si!nrns}: The bon. the Minister of Forests Resources and Lands. e23s

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3102 IB-1 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the cabin owners who now own cabins along the Gander River, as in any other parts of Newfoundland they will be dealt with, as I say, as it relates t0 the Crown Lands Act in Newfoundland. If they are in a legal . possession of Crown land 1 either recently or for a' long period of time 1 they will be dealt with according to the acts that are there. As it relates to foreign ownership in Newfoundland 1 let me say, Mr.

Speaker, that I am proud to administer a Crown Lands Act which allows Canadians to apply for Crown land in Newfoundland 1 something which does not happen in very many other provinces, if any ,in Canada, where in most cases you have to be a resident of that Province to apply for a Crown land grant, In the case of Newfoundland we 1 because of our Canadian attitude, because we believe in Canada, will allow any person in Canada to apply for Crown land. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. member for Torngat yields for a supplementary from the hon. member for St. Barbe. MR.

BENNETT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. Only just this morning - and I cannot resist this question - only just this morning on mv desk I have a request from a constituent of mine whose family before him lived, developed, worked a piece of land for way in excess of twenty years, it could even be fifty years,and they cannot get a grant or a lease or cannot get anything in legal documentation. So I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, how a Mr.

Finch can come into the Province and acquire 6300 acres of land while Austin Patey - I say this for the record because I shall send to him the documentation; hopefully, Mr. Speaker, I shall have the opportunity to consult with the minister - Austin Patey of River of Ponds 823R

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3102 IB-2 MR. BENNETT: cannot get three acres of land in River of Ponds, land that these people have used - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. BENNETT: (Inaudible). Order, please! - all down through the years and it is not available, Mr. Speaker. Number one, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: _(Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order! The bon. member has a question? MR. BENNETT: I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, the cost involved to people like Mr.

Finch to acquire such lands as 6300 acres as opposed to our people who find it so difficult even to acquire three acres and why it is being made so difficult for them to acquire lands, Mr. Speaker, that they have owned down through the years through squatter's rights and now they cannot get legal documentation to it. I am wondering what the minister's comments would be on that. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forest, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it the member has a problem with one of his constituents who has a problem getting either access or title to land.

In Newfoundland we have a procedure whereby if clear title cannot be given through the department or division of Crown lands of my department,then there is

an act called the Quieting of Titles Act which anyone in this Province can apply to and go to the courts,and if they have rightful ownership -of that piece of property then it will be given to them by the courts. And that is always an out which is there whenever they cannot get satisfaction from a division of a department of government. The courts are always there to arbitrate any kind of ~237

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3102 IB -3 ~- POWER: dispute about ownership of land. As it relates to Mr . Finch's ownership of property , it is an entirely different issue. As it relates to the member's constituent district problem,! will be glad to sit down and talk to him. And I underl?tand he has corresponded with me and is waiting for an answer and I am sure we will do the very best we can with that problem . ~23fl

July 7, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. WARREN: Tape No. 3103 SD - 1 The bon. member for Torngat Mountains Yes, Hr. Speaker • My question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). Mr. Speaker, as a part of the

preamble, during the past Winter the minister's department shipped perishable supplies into the various communities in my district where his department operates depot stores. I am just wondering and could the minister answer why his department paid freight charges over 100 per cent more than the local businessman can get the same commodities into a community? MR; SPEAKER: and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: The bon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural I am not sure if ~ understand that question - why we pay 100 per cent of the freight charges - MR. WARREN: AN BON. MEMBER: MR. GOUDIE: 100 per cent more.

Over double. ~he cost of freight,- is that what the bon. gen~leman is saying? MR. WARREN: Yes. MR. GOUDIE: will find out. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, but I Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, tHe bon. member for Yes, Mr. Speaker, Hy supplementary is here is an answer fran the minister on June 19th, under the minister's signature, where the minister said that a bag of onions by a private businessman would cost - that is a fifty pound bag, Mr.

Speaker - $22.50 1 and in the government store the freight for a bag of onions, exactly the same weight, 50 pounds, would could $47.50 freight. I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, why $23.50 more for one bag of onions shipped into-the coast? 8239

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3103 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultu~al and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, now we are becoming a little more specific, I know what the hon. gentleman is talking about. If he had been courteous enough to mention that particular piece of correspondence in the beginning then we would not have had to go through this process. In any event, we pay the regular going rates to Labrador Airways or to any other carrier which takes perishable foods into the Coast of Labrador,whether it is on an aircraft or on a coastal boat.

The items to which the hon. gentleman was just referring; apparently a private businessman in Postville, I believe, brought in some perishables this Spring at sometime or other - I do not remember the date now.(.. and sold them,as I indicated, and I think the gentleman has a copy of the price list which I provided to him as well, which indicated this particular businessman sold of the commodities with the exception of one, I believe, for - or two - what was it, one or two particular co~odities of the items brought in at a loss and the man says he will never do it again.

So I do not know where he lost the .cost recovery on these various items, but obviously what we have done is paid the amount of freight that was charged to us and have sold the items for the regular market price. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Torngat Mountains, Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for t324n

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3104 EL - 1 MR. WARREN: I think, Mr. Speaker, the minister is definitely misleading the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : withdraw. MR. WARREN: Oh, oh! Order, please! I will ask the hon. member to I withdraw, Mr. Sneaker. Mr. Speaker, to give you another example, Mr. Speaker, the minister spoke about this private company los- ing on some commodities. To quote, Mr. Speaker, a case of apples, 140 in a case, this private individual, the freight charges were $18 and for the gov~rnrnent store, the freight charges were $38, Mr.

Speaker, and neither the government store nor the business­ man lost on that commodity. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Does the hon. member have a ques- tion? MR. WARREN: I would like to ask the minister a question. Has the minister called tenders, has the minister's department called tenders for freight charges into the various communities along the coast as pertaining to per­ ishable goods that are shipped in during the Winter months? Has he called tenders? MR. SPEAKER: Development. MR. GOUDIE: The hon. the Minister of Northern Not that I recall, Mr. Speaker.

We do not normally call tenders on freight charges 1 but we do call tenders for the supply of materials, perishable items and non-perishable items, all items sold in the five depot stores on the coast of Labrador. As a matter of fact, we can, I supp­ ose technically have as many as 500 different suppliers of items to coastal communities-or the depot stores in coastal communities 8241

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3104 EL - 2 MR. GOUDIE: of Labrador on the North Coast. The freight costs, I would have to double check and find out exactly what the process is,but as that bon. gentleman,and I guess all other bon. gentlemen of the House know, there is only one or two air carriers operating in Labrador which would carry these items to the coast of Labrador after or during the freezeup period. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER ts·imms) : MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. The bon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier.

In view of the fact that the Terra Nova district along with several other rural districts in the Province was severely and disgracefully discriminated against by t~ govern­ ment by being denied and rejected any capital works money for installation of water and sewer systems and road improvements, and in view of the fact that there is rampant unemployment in these areas, can the Premier ensure the workers of these areas, workers from the Terra Nova district and these other rural areas, that they will be guaranteed equal employment opportunity in this Province this Summer?

In other words, can the Premier assure all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians that they are free to seek employment anywhere in the Province, that they are allowed mob­ ility rights within their own Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier,;' PREMIER PECKFORD: I would ask the bon.. member to ask that question to the bon. member for St. Barbe (T.Bennettl behind him 1 who wished to have local preference on a job in the Great Northern Peninsula.so that therefore there might be some possibilities that if his colleague, the member for St.

Barbe, keeps insisting on that kind of local preference,that people from Terra Nova might not get jobs in the Great Northern Peninsula. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~24~

July 7, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Terra Nova. Tape 3105 EC - 1 A supplementary, the han. the MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, is the Premier then saying that the policy of his government is to deny the people of this Province equal employment opportunities throughout the Province, to deny them mobility rights? Is that what the Premier is saying? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am just trying to restate what has been a position by a number of member of the Opposition in debates in this House over the last couple of weeks and to inform the han. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) of what some of his own colleagues are saying. That is all I am trying to do, Mr. Speaker, to see whether in fact there is some consistency on the other side of the House when it comes to some of these issues which are facing the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: The Leader of the Opposition is against local preference as it relates to the offshore, the member for St. Barbe (Mr.

Bennett) is in favour of local preference when it comes to his own district, so that shows some inconsistency and I am just at a loss to know how I am supposed to respond when I get these inconsistent questions corning from the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: As it relates to the han. member and unemployment and employment in the Province, I can only reiterate, as I have said - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, may I be protected? Order, please~ Order, please! 824:1

July 7, 1981 Tape 3105 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: I listen without any comment to questions that come from the other side of the House and I would appreciate the same courtesy in response. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, as it relates to employment and unemployment in the Province, the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) is the critic for Labour and Manpower, I think, and he should know - if anybody on the other side of the House should know, it is the hon. member - that the unemployment rate in this Province has gone down almost 5 per cent in the last two years.

We have created 20,000 new jobs, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: We are very, very proud. And if we can get on with building the hospital in the member for LaPoile's (Mr. Neary) district,and on with building the hospital in the member for Burin - Placentia West's (Mr. Hollett) district 1 and on with building the hospital in Trinity North 1 and the hospital in Grand Falls,and the hospital in Forteau, another great Liberal district, we will even reduce the unemployment rate further. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Terra Nova. SOl-iE HON. ME!~ERS : MR.

SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Oh, oh! Order, please! In the name of humanity, Mr. Speaker, I am calling on the Premier to assure the people of the Terra Nova district 1who have been severely discriminated against,as I pointed out, with no monies for employment in the area this year, in the name of humanity, will the Premier tell those people that they have equal employment B244

-~- July 7, 1981 Tape 3105 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: opportunities in this Province, that they are allowed to move around this Province to get jobs, for example, on the Upper Salmon project and at Cat Arm and other government projects? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MRo SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please~ The question is out of order because it is a question that already has been asked c:.nd has been answered or not answered, and Beauchesne s.ays you cannot repeat in substance a question already answered or to which an answer has been refused. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 8 2 4 .~

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3106 sb - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplementary, the hon. member ~or Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in view of the facts that I quoted, is the Premier willing to announce this day that his government will ~scind the local preference policy presently in effect on the Upper Salrnon,which is discrimatory against the people of Terra Nova district and other rural districts throughout this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we have seen in various parts of this Province, in Happy Valley/Goose Bay, in the Roddickton area, in the Bay d'Espoir area, and in other areas of the Province from time to time , severe unemployment problems, extremely severe, very depressed conditions - MR. LUSH: No wonder he does nqt like the mobility'rights across Canada. PREMIER PECKFORD: - to the extent that in the Bay d'Espoir area,in the last couple of years before the Upper Salmon project,there was unemployment at 50 per cent, 60 per cent and as high as 70 per cent. We have reduced that now, I dare say, Mr.

Speaker, it is down to 10 per cent - MR. LUSH: Nonsense, hogwash. PREMIER PECKFORD: - and we are very proud of that. So there has to be on some of those major projects ,which are now"in a depressed area,certain preference given to the local people who have worked on other hydro projects like, for example, the original Bay d'Espoir project itself. So there has been some of that and we have tried to be fair and yet seeing that people from other parts of the Province get a good crack at these jobs as well.

So we are trying to be as fair as we can given the depressed conditions in certain particular areas around the Province. But I can 824R

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3106 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: assure the hon. member that I am sure there are workers in Musgravetown and there are workers in Glovertown and there are workers throughout the Terra Nova district who are great workers - MR. LUSH: That is right. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - some of the best workers in the Province and that they will be able tq obtain employment around the Province just the same as workers from other districts who are obtaining employment right now. MR. LUSH: Upper Salmon. MR. SPEAKER: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: Second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting Denturists", (Bill No. 49). The last day of debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Grand Bank (~r. Thoms), who is not here. he will close the debate. The hon. the Minister of Health. If the hon. minister speaks know SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, there are a few things I want to respond to that were raised yesterday. A couple of the speakers made some general remarks about dental care. The member for St.

Barbe (Mr, Bennett) was equating, of course, denturism with dental care and he was talking about what was going to happen in St. Barbe 1and I told him I would check it out and find out. What we do have in St. Barbe, of course, for the first time we have a dentist stationed in the Western part,and in September we will have one on the other part of the district and, of course, they will be very well served there. He is not in the House 1 but I thank him for giving me the opportunity to point that out. B247

July 7, 1981 MR. HOUSE: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HOUSE: that there is in Tape No. 3106 SD - 3 The other thing I want to say, Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh. Order, please! - in relation to that is the fact t324A

July 7, J_981 Tape No. 3107 IB-1 MR. HOUSE: the last ten years, I believe, about ten years - and I am not equating that with any regime or any reason - the fact is we have doubled the number of dentists in the Province. And, of course, most of that doubling has gone into the remote parts of the Province. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HOUSE: There are still problems, that is correct. But I am saying that what we have done, we have doubled the number, Andi think it is something like 80 per cent of school pupils have access to, are getting access to dentists in the school programme.

Unfortunately in a few places - MR. STIRLING: MR. HOUSE: This is a Liberal programme. Oh, this is a programme that has been in place ten years and improved on and expanded. MR. STIRLING: one expansion. Tell us about one improvement, MR. HOUSE: Ten to twelve, including twelve. But .that is ·the facts, Mr. Speaker, and what has happened in that respect is the fact that, you know, 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the people are getting service through that programme. Now there are two or three things I want to mention. Fi~st of all,the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) led off on the debate yesterday after I had finished. I want to point out two or three things. First of all 1 that we are following very closely the recommendations of the select committee of the House of Assembly on the denture problem and the denturists' bill. They recommended that it be a committee composed - the only thing that we are not following closely is we do not want B249

'July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3107 IB-2 MR. HOUSE: to overload the committee with other professional people other than denturists. We are putting a dentist on because of the fact that, of course, he is the expert . in making dentures and in all matters pertaining to dentistry. There is nothing that has changed in the Province to change what the s~lect committee said that we should do. The only thing that has changed is the fact that there are more dentists and perhaps the need for denturists is not so acute as it was when the select committee had met.

I just stated that we have doubled the number of dentists in the last ten years and most of these, as I said, have gone into the remote parts. So it points out that there .is no greater need for any improvement on what the select committee said about denturists now as was then, there is no greater need .for denturists now than was then and they should not have a bigger mandate. Now, the argument came up about partial dentures 1 and I want to point out that we could possibly have deviously gone about a way of putting in a mechanism for dealing with partial dentures.

We could have done that like they did in Saskatchewan and like they did in Ontario. But you want to bear in mind what Saskatchewan has done~ They gave legislation that a denturist supply partial dentures but only with a written referral from a dentist. Now, Mr. Speaker, all information I have that I have been able to garner is that there is no desire on the part of the denturists and the dentists to work together in this regard,and you just cannot impose that kind of thing. So ! do not think it would have done anybody any good to put that kind of legislation in here. t325n

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3107 IB-3 MR. HOUSE: Ontario, for instance, they talk about ontario's legislation. In Ontario a denturist or a dental therapist-or a denture therapist rathe;r,may only carry O\.l.t inter-oral procedures in the office of a dental surgeon and under that particular person's supervision. Now, the Leader of the Opposition I am referring to because he mentioned this, he said that the fabrication of ~eeth is done, the manufacture~ :J~! technicians. It is true that dentists themselves hire hygienists and B 2 S ·1

July 7, 1981 Tape 3108 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: technicians. That is a fact. But the impressions are taken by dentists, the fittings are done and perfected by dentists, and they have, of course, sufficient education in reading x-rays and in oral pathology to determine what has to be done.

I do not think the present training of the people who are classing themselves right now at this point in time as denturists are equipped with that kind of knowledge, and I would ·- have a lot of difficulty in allowiny people without these qualifications to be making legally partial dentures. ~ow this leads me,of course, to the other word that they talked about yesterday,the word 'professionalism' and they say this group is a professional group like the Law Society or like the optometrists or like the dentists or the doctors or any other group. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have some difficulty with that particular statement too because it is a.qood philosophical argument; I do not know how you would define a full-fledged professional. Certainly I do not think, you know, ·in most of these it is the highly skilled people who have several years of training. I do not think that the people who are denturists are under that particularly cateqorv. The best I can aay is that they are para-professional,. or perhaps it is a trade, that '''t:he trade I " I I • is to manufacture of a prosthesis. Now I do not ~now what the word is when you say it is adequate.

So part of the process in this particular act, Mr. Speaker, part of the process is to define what the education of denturists will be, to train and define what it will be. Then,of course,I do not know what can happen; there is always a mechanism to put in place a training programme or put in an amendment relating to partial dentures. Now the other thing there is the board. And I want to say why we determined - that the board ~252

.,... July 7, 1981 Tape 3108 PK - 2 MR. HOUSE: should be three, three, and one, and it is the fact that the board is not a board like, for instance, the Opticians Board,who work under another group. Now these people who are denturists are doing their work, they are doing the impressions, and they are also doing the dispensing; ~ are doing a total health service. And tpat is why I think at this point in time that they should not have a majority of members on that board.

But I do believe, of course, as time progresses and as they prove themselves and get the proper organization and training that perhaps that particular thing shall change. So these were the two main arguments, Mr. Speaker, that I wanted to rebutt. And, of course, I am very pleased that we have gotten this far with this act. I think it has been a lonq time coming but,as I said at the beginning, it is foilowing clo::;ely the recommend~tion .of the select committee of the House of Assembly and nothing has changed in that time for us to change that particular recommendation.

And it gives me great pleasure to move second reading, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Denturists", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 49). MR. MARSHALL: Order 10, Bill No. 37. Motion, second reading, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975". (Bill No. 37). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a few words on that. It is an amendment to this particular act. 1325::!

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3109 ah-1 MR. HOUSE: We have under the Department of Health Act and the regulations under this Act 1 the mechanism whereby we can inspect the properties of any funeral director and,of course,for the purposes of seeing that it is sanitary and that sort of thing. But we do not have any capability within the department to ensure that the building is adapted for what it is meant to be, a funeral parlor. This particular

section is being added to give an inspection

section and that will allow , of course, members of the board the privilege to go in and inspect the premises, and that is all this particular amendment is doing. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend· The Embalmers And Funeral Directors Act, 1975," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 37) MR. MARSHALL: Order 11 Bill No. 14. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Medical Act, 1974," (Bill No. 14). MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Health. MR. HOUSE: The bon. Minister of Mr.

Speaker, this is as a result of a request coming in from the Newfoundland Medical Association. As it stands now, in order to change a by-law the Newfoundland Medical Association,under the Medical Act have to get the consent of sixty-six and tvm thirds per cent of all the members. Of course,that was very good a few years ago when ryery one of them may have turned up to a meeting but , of course, there are a large number of medical people now, doctors in the Province in the Medical Association and,of course, it is impossible to get two thirds t1254

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3109 ah-2 MR. HOUSE: of them voting together, and it is impossible to get it done by proxy. So what they are asking, and it is at their request, is that this ·act be changed to two­ thirds of those voting either at a meeting and on the same issue by proxy. And that will be the new amendment to the act. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Medical Act, 1974," read a second time, ordered re- ferred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 14). MR. MARSHALL: Order 12 Bill No •. 13. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospi.tals Act, 1971." (Bill No. 13).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, this amendment pro- vides that a hospital board would be able to manage two or more hospitals. Also the Act now reads that any naming of the hospital board is that it shall be known as the---Hospital Board­ the Lady Northcliffe Hospital Board or the General Hospital Corporation Hospital Board.

Today we have hospital boards doing something more, they are doing other branches of health care delivery other than , of course, operating hospitals, so we want to arrange now so that the bill would give the Lieutenant-Gov­ ernor in Council greater flexibility in naming hospital boards under

Section 5. That is that they could name it something other than · hospital board. For instance, the Grenfell board want to be known as the Health Services ~- That is a very minor amendment, that it is just a matter of, really, giving permission for a name change. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. t1255

July 7, 1981, Tape 3110, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that seems to me to be an oversimplification of what this bill is all about. The hon. gentleman did not tell the House - and perhaps he can tell us now when he stands to close the debate-whether or not hospital boards are operating one or more hospitals now: If they are doing it now, which ones are doing it and why it was necessary to bring in this bill. Does the government anticipate that in future they are going to put more hospitals under a single board?

Because some boards may operate better than others, and because there may be some difficulty in getting manpower or womanpower to serve on these boards, are these the reason why this bill is necessary at this time, Mr. Speaker? I wish the hon. gentleman, when he was introducing this legislation - this is the third bill now that he has inaxduced - and he has given us very little information to go on, very little to argue about, very little to debate. Mr. Speaker, I would suspect that this bill is more significant and more important than the hon. gentleman is telling the House.

So perhaps the hon. gentleman would care now, if nobody else wants to say anything about it, to elaborate on some of the points that I have raised. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he will close the debate. The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I thought I mentioned that it would allow,under the act, to operate two or mnre hospitals, and I believe we put the word 'sheduled' in there because all hospitals operate under a schedule. That is to differentiate it ~25R

July 7, 1981, Tape 3110, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSI:: from a hospital like, for instance, the cottage hospitals or the - those are not scheduled hospitals until they come under a board - one in Argentia, for instance. That would not be able to come under one of our boards. The fact is yes, we do have ~ number. We are getting some of the bigger hospital boards taking over cottage hospitals. A case in point: The Gander Hospital, for instance, operates the Fogo Island cottage hospital- that is taken over under that board -and it operates the one in Brookfield.

I believe we are trying to make an arrangement so that Grand Falls will be operating the hospital, say, in Harbour Breton. ·The Grenfell Board is a new board, took over in April of this year. It was operated by the Grenfell Mission. The board, of course, is a local board now with representation from the Grenfell, but they operate a large number of hospitals. They operate Churchill Falls, they operate one in Goose Bay, and the one in St. Anthony, and then, of course, a number of nursing stations along the coast.

Also, in addition to that, they are doing the public health service as well as a lot of dental programmes. So you are correct. There are some of them doing it, but the legislation is not exactly there to do it. We want to change it for that. The other thing is, of conrse, the name is significant. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. HOUSE: Yes, we are hoping to. For instance, there are some places we would not amalgamate with others, but as a general, common 13257

July 7, '1981, Tape 3110, Page 3 -- "apb MR. HOUSE: agreement with the area• yes, because, for inS"tance, Grand Falls is the major hospital for a particular centre. MR. NEAR,Y: (Inaudible} MR. BOOSE: They have not as yet. There has not been any move that way as yet, but it is ;110t the same because Botwood uses the Grand Falls • hospital anyway. But they are referred from Harbour Breton to Grand Falls. So I can use this as a case. Now, Port ?UX Basques Hospital., the one i.n your district, was a cottage hospital but that has its own board. And, of course, ~urgeo, I t~. B.1:1rge0 is another one that may be coming up. H25A

July 7, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. HOUSE: question about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HOUSE: Tape No. 3111 EL - 1 (Inaudible) is it a good board. Yes, it is an excellent board, no Oh, oh! Yes, all boards are good but most of the members of that board, by the way, just about have their time up, that t~e served, yes. I move second reading. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971.", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of ~he Whole House on tomorrow~ (Bill No. 13) Motion, second reading of a bill, .!'An Act Respecting Dispensing Opticians", (Bill No. 21) • MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, this is a new act and it is

an act respecting dispensing opticians and of course, by definition dispensing opticians are those who dispense optical appliances and of course it defines in - MR. STIRLING: denturists. MR. HOUSE: Very similar to the one for No, not exactly, not exactly. I will tell you the difference in these and the denturists. These are to an optometrist what a druggist is to a doctor. They dispense what the optometrist usually prescribes. A dentist prescribes and dispenses and the denturists prescribe and disoense. MR. STIRLING: MR. HOUSE: for. Oh, yes. AN HON. MEMBER: audible) MR.

HOUSE: That is not what they are asking for. Oh, yes. That is what they are asking (Inaudible) what the doctor (in- No, Mr. Speaker, no. t:125~

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3111 EL - 2 MR. HOUSE: But this has never been under

an act, the opticians have never been under

an act,but there is a Dispensing Opticians Guild who agreed with us that we should ,of course, put in place

an act to govern the people who are presently dis- pensing and 1 of course,they would have a grandfather clause in this particular case because they have been dispensing for a large number of years. And also it does determine two or three ways for education programmes whichare outlined in this particular act. We have had a lonq service with most of these people. There is nothing controversial in it. We are setting up a board and again the board is going to con- sist of four opticians, in this case,and two people, I believe it is, two others - three others; one which may - MR.

STIRLING: Do they not do the same thing as the denturists? MR. HOUSE: No, I explained -the reason, the difference for that. I am explaining that these people are operating under,basically under the guidance of other profess- ional groups. They are dispensing for a particular prescrip- tionJ that is right. There are other parts here that they will have to specify who will be able to dispense contact len- ses. That is the other. MR. S"'T:PJ,:J:l\Tr,: MR. HOUSE: • MR. STIRLING: MR. HOUSE: You know there is a monopoly in Newfoundland. A monopoly on what? Opticians. Possibly there is, yes.

What we are putting in place is legislation 1 not to control the industry as much as it is to register the people who are in- volved in dispensing and to set up standards of education. The other point, as I said, I want to point out 1 one of the things it will not allow, this particular act, 826n

July 7, 1981 Tape No . 3111 EL - 3 MR. HOUSE: will not allow an optician to dis- pense. It will not allow an optician to dispense contact lenses unless it is specified by an optometrist or a doctor. SomP.times, I think no1<~ they can go in and change the prP.scriotion from an ordin~ry glas s to a con­ tact lense, but now, they are not permitted to do that under this particular act. e2s1 ,, ·~

July 7, 1981 Tape 3112 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: There a ~ e three conditions there - I think we should o qtline that - for tra ining. They must have successfully completed a course in optical dispensing recognized by the board,and have receiv e d practical training and optical dispensing from a dispensing optician or optometrist for the period of a year,or have completed at least three years of training in optical dispensing under the direct supervision of a dispensing optician,and have completed a horne study course. That is the other one. The third one i s a combination of any of these.

I mentioned that we are going to allow the grandfather clause to be operative here if some­ body has been operating for a year. Mr. Speaker, it is a very straight­ forward act, it is not controversial by any stretch of the imagination, and I will try to answer any questions from any member. MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I was not here when the minister explained the difference between a denturist and a dispensing optician.

I know they are in different fields of endeavour,but in t~eir mode of operation I do not see too much difference. I mean, we could, I assume, require that denturists would prepare dentures through a dentist. I am not aware of any situation that exists now - the minister refers to the act in that now an optician cannot dispense contact lenses without first having those prescribed by a regular eye doctor. I was not aware that that was the practice by any of our dispensing opticians prior to this act being debated here. 826!

July 7, 1981 Tape 3112 EC.- 2 MR. THOMS: I have worn contact lenses now, I think, fo .r s .ornething like twenty-five or twenty-six years. When they first came on the Il)arket, I was one of the ones who first had the hard contact lenses and I have been wearing them ever since. I had them changed once in the last twenty-four or twenty-five years. That is one of the advantages over the .type of glasses that the minister is wearing.

Tbey do, as I understand it - and they have certainly done in my case - stabilize the eyesight of a person and you find that you do not need to change them as often as you do the ordinary glasses. If a perso:n c.an wear them, I would certainly recommend that they get them. ~26:1

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3113 SD - 1 MR. THOMS: Originally I obtained them and then a few years ago when I had the prescription changed, it was done on the advice of a optometrist who did it. I know one of the opticians in this city, a Mr. John Power, who I consider one of the best men at the job that you could find. He gives excellent service and I certainly had no complaints with him and I have been going to him now since I have been about eighteen or nineteen years of age,which was not yesterday, Mr. Speaker.

But there is another difference in this particular piece of legislation than in the piece of legislation passed earlier this afternoon called "An Act Respecting Denturists~ and that is that in this particular case we do not have the majority on the board represented by people outside the profession. In this particular case there are seven members appointed by the minister, four of whom shall be dispensing opticians; the other three need not be, but I can assume that they could all be dispensing opticians but there are four of whom must be dispensing opticians.

So in all likelihood you are qoinq to get" four opticians and three laymen on th_e board. But there is one question ·in connection with this bill I would like the minister to,_ if he might, give me the rationale behind it. In most professions 1and certainly in the profession that I am associated with, the Law Society of this Province, the board - in the Law Society's case it is call the Benchers - elect their own Benchers to run their own organization and they are governed under the Lav1 Society Act.

They are not appointed by the minister, they are elected by the members at large of the Law Society,and if you are in practice, I think it is for ten years or something, five year, whatever the case might be, you are eligible to become a Bencher. But they are governed by the Law Society Act, but the members of the Law Society themselves elect their members to their board which they call tl264

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3113 SD - 2 MR. THOMS: the Benchers or they elect their members to the board and I believe they have a rotation where some are elected for one year, some for two years, some for three years and they rotate in that manner. But t126~

July 7 1981 Tape No. 3114 IB-1 MR. THOMS: I am wondering wh~ in these cases that we have corning before the House now,that it is the minister who is appointing the board. I mean, the Optician's Guild and the opticians in this Province enjoy a good,· good reputation. I am wondering why we could not give them the same privilege as we give the Law Society,of letting them elect their own board r~ther than having the board appointed by the minister. I sincerely believe, Mr.

Speaker, that an effort should be made on the part of government to have less to do with the everyday lives of people in the professio~and people generally. I think you have seen this wave of sentiment in the Reagan administration, in the Government of the United States,where Reagan says the government should get off the backs of the people. And this is another example. It seems to me that we should - I do not understand why the minister would want to,in all these cases, appoint boards. Why not let the professions,thernselves.govern themselves and elect their own boardsand carry on their own business under

an act of this Legislature,the same as the Law Society of the Province? You know, _I have argued in this House time and time again, I think there is probably almost total agreement within the Royal Newfqundland Constabulary 1 that there should be a Poiice Commission. And the reason for it is to get politics out of the Newfoundland Constabulary. As long as you have that link between the Department of Justice and the administration, you are going to have problems. Well,it is the same thing here. It makes no difference how straightforward or how honest or how much integrity the minister shows in appointing the members to these boards, the accusation is 8266

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3114 IB-2 MR. THOMS: always going to be there that he is putting a bunch of Tories on as members of the board. I mean,no matter how much integrity you show, if you threw every practicing optician's name in a hat and pulled them out, if you were that democratic, Mr.

Speaker, if the minister were that ~~mocr.atic,there are still those,and a majority of them,who will say that you are appointing Tory, for the want of a better word - I do not 2ike the word, but for want of a better word, you are appointing Tory hacks to these boards, so that you are always giving it that political connotation, that political connotation. So to me it is something,! believe,that we should be trying to get away from rather than having that little hold on these professional organizations that we have by the minister having the authority to appoint the boards. Let them appoint their own boards.

If they are .not capable, if they are not qualified of running their own affairs and e}ecting their own boards, then ·we should not be talking about them in the House of Assembly. MR. NEARY: Carried. MR. THOMS: Is my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) anxious to get out of the House• I thought you were going to be here until Christmas? MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER. MR. THOMS: I though~ you were finished. Order, please! I thought you were going to be here until Christmas. Now he wants me to hurry up. What a myth, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Hurry up. Hurry up. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to make a - U267

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3114 MR. NEARY: Carried. MR. THOMS: That is difficult. That is difficult. Is he attracted to - MR. SPEAKER AN HON. MEMBER: Order, please! (Inaudible). ~268 IB .-3

July 7, 1981, Tape 3115, Page 1·-- apb MR. THOMS: Yes, okay. Because that could probably keep me on my feet all afternoon, if he did not retract that particular statement, Mr. Speaker. Anyway, it is just a point t~at I wanted to make, that if we are going to set up these organizations, if we are going to set up these boards, well, then, let us give them the responsibility, let us take the political connotation out of it.

It is like I said, if the minister will throw all the names of every lay person in the Province in a large drum, and put in all the names of all the dispensing opticians, when he makes the appointment to the board, Mr. Speaker, he is going to be accused of appointing Tories to the board. It would be the same thing if we were over there, and if my hon. friend from Torngat Mountains(Mr. Warren) were Minister of Health and he did the same thing, it makes no difference who is in power, who forms the government;as long as these boards are appointed by the minister 1 then you are going to have these accusations.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Baird): speaks now he closes the debate. Health. MR. HOUSE: Hear, hear! If the hon. Minister The Hon. the Minister of If the member for Torngat Mountains were Minister of Health, there would not be much change on top. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HOUSE: there down, I would suggest. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H26~ Hear, hear! There would be a lot from Oh, oh!

July 7, 1981, Tape 3115, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think one of the main points the member talked about there was the appointment of the Denturist Board as compared to this one. And again I have to say that this board is a dispensing board which works under direction, dispensing under the direction of optometrists or medical doctors. That is a little different. Now, the other on~, as I said, is offering a complete health service - partial health service, complete. ~d that is why we think that the board should have the makeup that is has.

Of course, I did say that I think that as time goes on that that board could - you know, certainly there could be amendments to it. With regard to the dispensing of contact lenses, it is quite clear that before there was no regulation governing it. Now I have stated that the regulation is there. With reard to the sppointment of boards, usually in these kinds of cases we go to the particular organization and ask them for a list of names. We get that list of names and, of course, that is the professional appointee. We do go and select the other members. For the information- and the Leader of the Opposition(Mr.

Stirling) should listen to this -of the member for Grand Bank(Mr. Thoms) 1 we never always appoint Tories to boards. You will want to know that the Chairman of the Board of Funeral Embalmers and Directors is one Julia Briffett from Corner Brook. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker. ~21n She was a Tory. Hear, hear! I move second reading,

July 7, 1981, Tape 3115, Page 3 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! Order, please! On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Dispensing Opticians", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 21). MR. MARSHALL: Order 14, Bill No. 12. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The J.'imber Scalers Act". (Bill No . 12) . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.

POWER: In introducing and Act To Amend The Timber Scalers Act 1 I will not take a great deal of time other than to say it is typical leg~slation brought in by this government in the sense that we move quietly and diplomatically to improve the lot of the ordinary workers of this Province. In the case of timber scaling in this Province, timber scalers who are licenced by the Province often as not work for the companies.

In the case of where a dispute arises between a wage earner of one of the companies and the timber scaler, in the old da ys it was just put out to an appeal system and an arbitrator came in, the official timber scaler of the Province came in. But the decision of the official scaler was not binding. As a result of that, Mr. Speaker, the only recourse for a wage earner,who did not agree with the official scaler's report, was to take the matter to court, oftentimes necessitating great amounts of money and great amounts of time. 13~71

July 7, 1981 Tape 3116 PK - 1 MR. POWER: In order to make that fair to the loggers of this Province, to the ordinary wage earners,we are now proposing an amendment to the decision of the official scaler, in the case of a dis~ute, binding up on all parties, allowing for an appeal mechanism, but making sure that it is binding on all parties,thus a~lowing any ordinary workers who do have a dispute with the timber scalers, who are employed by the companies,to avoid the costly.time and finances of going to the court s7stem and having it binding on both parties. And again, Mr.

Speaker, it is a type of an amendment which again protects the ordinary workers of this Province. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. NEARY: Where does he come from? i•iR. THOl"iS : MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile. Who appoints the official scaler? Carried. Yes, it will be carried. I will not delay the House like the hon. gentleman did. You know, will there be official scaleFs in various parts of the Province or will there be just one provincial official scaler or two? How many will there be? And how do they get appointed? I mean, what are there qualifications? MR. SPEAKER: and Lands. MR.

POWER: The hon. Minister of Forest, Resources Mr. Speaker, the one official scaler will be a senior civil servant who obviously has earned that position over a period of time,an~ he will be the official scaler for the Province. There will be a Timber Scalers Board, which will be made up of senior timber scalers both of the companies and of the government itself, and those are the persons to whom an appeal can be made. So the official scalers employed by the Province,and there will be a Timber Scalers Board made up of timber scalers throughout the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~271

July 7, 1981 Tape 3116 PK - 2 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Timber Scalers Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 12). MR. MARSHALL: Order 16, Bill No. 36. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act. " (Bill No. 36) • MR. SPEAKER(Baird): The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.· R. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, this is really some housekeeping amE.udm~nts to The Highway Traffic Act.

The first one, Clause (1), deals with the definition of a school bus and it merely allows the same protection to school buses transporting children to activities outside regularly going from home to the school. It will take care of situations where school children are transported to baseball games or to stadiums and to swimming pools or school picnics and this sort of a thing. It will require the-drivers of vehicles coming up to school buses that have their flashing lights on will be required to stop as per now,during regular school hours.

Clauses (2) through (a} refer to the issuing of dealer plates to people who are in the automotive sales business, and it .!~moves providing two plates and restricts them to one. This is to reduce some abuse that has been detected with some operators using the same plate number on two different vehicles at the same time. So it will restrict the issuance of plates to one. Clause (9) refers to the trainee or a beginner getting a motorcycle licence.

Prior to this amendment an operator who was learning to use a motorcycle , the only time he was permitted to be on the highroad was during the testing,when he was making application or beinq tested for his licence. This will allow a motorcycle operator, under restricted road conditions 1or r~ed speed limits, on secondary roads and so on,to operate on that road provided he is accompanied by a licenced driver, either beside him on a ti273

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3117 ah-1 MR. DAWE: either beside him in a motorcycle or behind him in some other vehicle, a motor car. Clause 10: This will increase the fee of searching for motor vehicle records from $2.00 to $5.00, very straightforward. Clause 11 r~f~r~ to the Judqement Recov~ry Act and it provides the - as a matter of fac~, Clause 11, 12,13 and 14 refer to the Judgement Recovery (Nfld.) Limited and it refines some of the requirements that gu into seeking j~dgement, things like increasing the limit on minor claims from $500 to $1000, keeping in tune with inflation and so on .

Clause 15 requires the operators of motor vehicles when approaching a crosswalk where someone leaves the sj:dewalk and _b_;;qi~ -1:.o walk across, to stop going in both directions. Right now the law only says that you have to stop if the pedestrian is in your particular right of way. This new amendment will cause the vehicle operatorsto stop, going in both directions. Clause 16 is an amendment requested by the city of Corner Brook. Prior to this the city of Corner Brook and St.

John's were exempt from the school bus regulations which provided for operators of other motor vehicles stopping for flashing lights , picking up and letting out children. Corner Brook have asked to have this included in their by-laws and so this amendment will acknowledge their request.

Clause 17 requires an operator of a motor vehicle who is involved in an accident to provide tc a person at t~e scene cf the accident,either a person involved or an observer, a witness who might cons:ider some of the information might be valuable later in some other action that may or may not be taken, either to provide proof of insurance, registration and so on. Clause 18 just increases the amount required to report an accident from $200 to $500,again keeping in line with some of the tl274 .... ___ _

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3117 e~t_-2 MR. DAWE: inflationary problems we have upon us. Clause 19 will allow the Motor Registration -Division to release information to selected individuals requiring information about the records of drivers and their operating records over a period of time. These would be solicitors or representatives of the individuals involved in an accident and so on.

Clause 20 puts some more clarity into the situation as ~t relates to municipalities setting same speed limits and regulations within the municipalities,and outlining,more specifically, procedures to follow in setting fees or fines for violations of these particular offences. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I would gather from browsing through this Act that there.is more than just same housekeeping amendments in this particular Act. One thing it does is it increases the amount_.- ~ow I think 1 ·you have to report an accident - Was it $200? MR.

DAWF.: Over $200. MR. NEARY: Over $200. Now. they are increasing that to $500. That is a major amendment, Mr. Speaker. MR. DAWE: Raised it from $200. MR. NEARY: Is that because of inflation? MR. DAWE: The cost of everything. MR. NEARY: The cost of everything. The cost of repairs are going up so they lift the ceiling. Now, Mr. Speaker, this act contains a number of amendments, some of them are housekeeping and some of them are substantial. But what I want to talk about are a couple of things that this Act does not contain. I am referring mainly to tractor trailers using the Trans-Canada Highway ~275 ...... __ _

July 7,1981 Tape No. 3117 ah -3 MR. NEARY: and our public roads on weekends and holidays and on Sundays . I believe, !-1r . Speaker, that that should stop and it should stop immediately. MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I .will bet, ,and I do not have the fiqures in front of me, I do not have the St(!tistics, but I w_i_ll bet more accidents; _ .. <lre caused by tractor.s .. and tractor trailers in this Province than any other source of accidents on the Trans-Canada Highway. Last weekend,which was a long weekend ~27R

July 7, 1981 Tape 3118 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: weekend,I left St. John's myself to drive down to Freshwater, Placentia, on a Sunday, on the Canada Day weekend. And just as I got outside the overpass I was overtaken by an Irving Oil tanker loaded with flammable products, stamped right across it, 'flammable'. Now, that tanker, Mr. Speaker, you would not know but what the driver was in the Grand Prix the way he passed the traffic going down the Trans-Canada. And I was expecting to drive a few miles down the highway and see him piled up in the side of the.cliff or over an embankment somewhere on the Trans-Canada Highway.

An Irving Oil tanker on a Sunday, terrifying people who were out with their families driving down the Trans-Canada Highway! I think it is shameful! The worst stretch of road is between Stephenville and Port aux Basques, one that I have become very familiar with in recent years, since 1975. I have been over that road - the next time I go down will be fifteen times since the first of the year, between Stephenville and Port aux Basques. I have made fourteen trips and next week I will be making my fifteenth trip. You are taking your life in your own hands, Mr.

Speaker, driving down that stretch of road where you have a large concentration of tractor trailers. This matter was raised in the House before. Obviously, the government have turned a deaf ear to it. Only the other evening there was an accident over on the Thorburn Road that was caused by a tractor. I do not know whose fault it was. But practically every accident that is reported, there is a tractor trailor or a ~ractor involved. I think, Mr. Speaker, the time has come for the minister to take the bull by the horns and bar tractor trailers and commercial vehicles off e211

July 7, 1981 Tape 3118 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: our highways and by-roads on weekends and on Sundays. Now, highways and by-roads were put there for the convenience and for the pleasure of Newfoundland drivers, Newfoundlanders who want to take their families out. You are risking your life taking your family on the Trans-Canada highway on a weekend and it is time to stop, Mr. Speaker, this slaughter on the Trans-Canada Highway. That fellow who went off in the Irving Oil tanker - well, you should have seen him zig-zagging in and out of traffic, a line of traffic, I suppose, a mile and a half long, with this huge tanker.

It was not just an ordinary delivery truck that I am talking about. AN HON. MEMBER: Eighteen wheeler. MR. NEARY: Eighteen wheels, Mr. Speaker, zigzagging and sauntering down the highway. You would not know, as I say, that the driver was over in Monte Carlo in the Grand Prix,and everybody frightened to death. I know I was scared, I was frightened. I was expecting to see a pile-up any minute. That was on a Sunday when people were out for a Sunday drive, and it is not good enough, Mr. Speaker.

We have had enough slaughter now on our highways as a result of accidents involving these tractor trailers and it is time to put a stop to it and bar them off the highways, bar them from midnight Friday night until midnight Sunday Night. Do not allow any commercial vehicles of any kind. Unless they are carrying perishable products and they get a special permit to do that from the minister,then they should not be allowed on the highways. Mr. Speaker, that is one point I wanted to raise on this matter. The other point has to do ."with school buses.

I notice now that - and this is a major amenement too - that the new act, these amendments will compel school buses to pull in on the side of the road ~27A

July 7, 1981 Tape 3118 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: rather than hold up up traffic. I often wondered, Hr. Speaker, what sense it made . You have a school bus , s'ay , going from here to Portugal Cove, making about fifteen or twenty stops on the way to Portugal Cove and holding up · the traffic all the way from St . John 's to Portugal Cove. I am sure hon. gentlemen must have experienced that. I think they would be better off if they were to stop at selected positions along the road , pull in on the side of the road and have crosswalks for the children who have to cross the road . Is that not more sensible, Mr . Speaker, than having 827R

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3119 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: lines of traffic, sometimes miles and miles of traffic tied up because under this law that we have cars have to stop when the red lights are flashing? So I would like for the minister to elaborate on that. Because it seems to me that is what this bill will do,and it is going: to mean,if that is what is means then ,there will have to be some education into the new system. The school safety programmes will have to geared up and the bus drivers will have zero in on the new rules and regulations.

Because in this act as amended,as I understand it, if the bus pulls into the side of the road 1 well 1then,the traffic will just pass by, both ways, coming and going,if that is wpat it means. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anything else I have to say about this bill. There is an awful lot of stuff in here for amendmends. There is reference again to the judgement recovery, Mr. Speaker, and that raises the matter that I raised in this hon. House before about vehicle owners beating the compulsory insurance.

And I am told how they do it; when they apply for their licences they have to give the policy number. So they make arrangements with the insurance companies to get their policy number and then,after they get their licence,they either do not pay the insurance or they let it run out. As a result, we have too many drivers on our highways and by-roads driving without insurance. I know a number of people who have come to me who have been involved in accidents. that were not their fault,and the culprit did not have insurance. I do not know how they can get away with it, Mr.

Speaker, I have to get my insurance,and hon. members have to get their insurance,and everybody else is supposed to get their insurance,but you would be surprised at the number of drivers who are using our highways and by-roads who do not have public liability insurance. I do not know ~.,hat happened to B2Bn

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3119 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: the o-ld fashioned road checks that we sa~; carried out a- few years ago, I have not seen one in recent years. There was a time when the police would check you for your driver's licence. Why I wi_:!.l bet,_ you., Mr. Speakei let me see, the last time and the only time in recent years that I was stopped and asked if I had a driver'.s licence, was in Port aux Basques. And Port aux Basques, a year or so ago, was like a police state, every car,after eleven o'clock in the night,was stopped and I was no exception.

I was stopped and I was asked for my licence 1 only once, but that is the only time,! would say,in twenty years. I could have been driving back and forth, driving for the last twenty years without a licence. How many hen. members have been stopped in the last twenty years and asked to produce their licence and asked to produce proof that they have public liability• insurance? How often? Not very often, Mr. Speaker. But in the old days ~ there was a time when you were stopped every year, at the expiration,_date.

When the licences became due, for the next several weeks,there were spot checks here and there to find out how many people were driving without a licence. And I will bet you. that is another thing that you would be surprised to know, how many people in this Province are drivinq without a qualified driver's licence. MR. DAWE: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Yes. Can you prove it? MR. NEARY: No, I cannot prove it.

But I am amazed, reading the court reports,at the number of people who are hauled before court for this and that,and for traffic violations, who do not have a driver's licence,or he does not have public liability insurance. Now,that is not good enough. If we have a law 1 then the law must be enforced. I would like for the minister to comment on that. There should be no need at all for a judgement recovery 8281

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3120 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: fund in this Province. There should be no . need of it. I mean, if we have compulsory insurance, we have compulsory insurance. Nobody should get away, be allowed to break the law. Why should we have a judgement recovery fund? The judg~ment recovery fund is to take care of those people who do not have insurance, who are involved in accidents. But the law says you have to have insurance. Mr. Speaker, that is a contradict- ion.

And the other thing I wanted to talk about before I take my seat, and I will be brief about this because this is some- thing that disturbs me to no end, that gets my dander up, it gets me riled up everytirne I go to St. John's Airport or every- time I go over to Memorial University, when I see the regalia and the rigs and the electronic devices and the electronic eyes that they have for swindling the public. The taxpayers put that parking lot_down at St. John's Airport and the taxpayers put the parking __ lot, ~ver there at Memorial University, MR,, TQL:(<: And the Health Sciences. MR.

NEARY: And the Health Sciences. And why should- when everytime you go down to St. John's Airport, you have to get in and pull out a slip and up goes the rail and in you go and you pay $2.50 a day for the privilege and pleasure of parking at St. John's Airport. And a guardhouse on this end with a little machine there with a tag hanging out; you push a button, a tag comes out, you pull it out, up goes the rail, you get inside the rail. AN HON. MEMBER: That is the federal government. MR. NEARY: Pardon? HR. EiOLLETT: They do not control the parking lots. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Spea.k.er, the rules and regulations for par-~i:n<J are made in this House. AN HON. ME.MBER: -- - --- -~ - - . - ~ .. - No, they are not, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Ah, B2B?.

.,_ July 7, 1981 Tape NO. 3120 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: they certainly are. We have a full-time man, just listen b this- I am not finished with St. John's Airport yet. I am going to have a severe dart at that and I do not care who is responsible for it. It is not good enough. The regimentation, the devious way~ they have for sock­ ing it to the poor old vehicle operator, a person who goes down to the airport. You talk about a police state. Why you would not see the likes of that in Moscow, what is happening at St. John's Airport. MR. CARTER: That is Ottawa. MR. NEARY: Well, I do not care who it is.

Whoever is responsible for it shou~d be ashamed of themselves. So, up goes the rail, you drive inside, you park your car and if you overnight there, it costs you $2.50. At the other end they have a man sitting down in a uniform with a big badge on like a sherri~and he sits there v~ry stern-faced and when you are dri ving out, _if you were there overnight, $2.50. .t-1R. WARREN: MR. NEARY: If you are there a week, $10 • If you are there a week, $10.

Now, I went down there recently and I thought I would beat that machine, I parked way up on the back and when I came back, I was gone one night, and when I got back it cost me - I have not paid it yet- it cost me $5 for a ticket. So, there was no choice. If I had gone inside, it would have cost me $2.50. I parked outside and it cost me $5. MR . L. THOMS: That was not very smart, was it? MR. NEARY: No, it was not very smart. I went out another time, I came back.

I went in, I pulled out the little slip of paper,and when I was driving out-I was gone from one o'clock in the day until four thirty the next afternoon, from one o'clock Saturday to four thirty on Sunday, a part of H283

July 7, 198 1 MR. NEARY: Mr • Speaker? ]).N HON. MEMBER : MR. NEARY: bucks, for a part of a day. . . MR , ROU SE: Ta pe No. 3120 EL - 3 a day, Do you know how much I had to pay, Five bucks. The hon. gentleman is right, five Not $2.50 plu~ - tole cann ot cha nge t hat ov er here. We do not make the rules out there. MR. NEARY: Well, if every hon.member in this House, if every hon. member stood in this House and racked up the perpetrators of that conspiracy down at St. John's Airport, turning it into a police state, they might be shamed into doing something about it. I think it is shameful.

You pull up to a a parking meter down there, you go in to pick up bags belonging to sick people or an invalid, and when you get back to the car,with the trunk open, probably the engine running, a ticket slapped on the windshield. Mr. Speaker, that is not good enough. It is not fai .r treatment of our Newfoundland people. ,Somebody should go down with a bulldozer and nulldoze these sentry 8284

'July 7, 1981 MR. NEARY: not know but - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: I am really tempted - MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. NEARY: Tape No. 3121 IB-1 boxes out of it. You would Civil disorder. Yes, civil disorder. You know order, please! - really tempted _to go down there with a bulldozer and bulldoze down these guardhouses they have down there. You know,the last time we saw them was in the Second World War, sentry ·boxes, guardhouses, down here at the airport. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: And, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman over there should not interrupt, because in this building,now,we have a full-time man,and that is not Mr. Trudeau or the Ministry of Transport, we have a full-time man in this building going around issuing tickets, a _":!~1,11).._-time man, a fellow dressed up in a uniform, going around this building, going around the parking lots of this building issuing tickets, full-time. MR. TULK: They do not want visitors. MR. NEARY: No, they do not want visitors. Mr. Speaker, the same thing over at Memorial, the campus over at Memorial. You cannot blame that on Ottawa.

The same thing, they have the sentry boxes over there. You go in, you have· to put your coin in, sentry, put your coin in, up goes the rail, you drive out the other end, you go through the magic eye up goes the rail. I think it is absolutely disgraceful, Mr. Sp~~ke~-·- · And the only thing that I can say is that Newfoundlanders must be awfully soft to let the authorities get away with it. That huge big parking lot down at St. John's airport, quarter-full and half-full. 82BS

... July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3121 IB-2 MR. HOUSE: A true Canadian. MR. NEARY: Pardon. · --- ·· · MR. HOUSE: A true Canadian setting a bad example. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Well,they should not be down here. Maybe '1-!e could start the reform in this part of the country. MR. YOUNG: You would be the first one to bawl if someone had your parking spot. MR. NEARY: MR. YOUNG: I beg your pardon? You would be the first one to yell if someone had your parking spot. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have never complained about my parking spot. MR. YOUNG: No,you have not ~ MR. NEARY: No,I have not.

And I would assume that if the name plate is put there,that people would obey the law. But I think it is disgraceful for the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) to second a full-time man,going around with a book of tickets in his back pocket, and a pen, writing tickets all day long. That is his full-time job, sneaking around and hiding and using all kinds of dirty tricks to increase the revenue for the Public Treasury. That is the real reason, Mr. Speaker, the real reason. If that is the only way they can get a dollar when they need it,I think, Mr.

Speaker, that we have ~eally stooped to a very low level in this Province. But I would like to hear other members comment on that St. John's airport thing. That one really irritates me. A classic example of a police state down there at that airport, at St. John's airport. MR. MORGAN : It is no worse than at Memorial University. MR. NEARY: I am talking about the airport, ~286

..: July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3121 IB-3 MR. NEARY: st. John's airport. I am talkinq about the parking regulations down there. MR. MORGAN: Oh, yes. I am inclined to agree. AN HON. MEMBER: We agree. MR. NEARY: Well, certainly, and any sane person would agree. The same thing around this building, around this building, around Memorial University, around the Health Science Complex. They are too stiff and they are too militant with people, Mr. Speaker. MR. HOLLETT: And around Confederation Building. MR. NEARY: I said around Confederation Building where we now - MR. HOLLETT: MR. NEARY: MR. HOLLETT: MR.

NEARY: Tourists are even given tickets here. -Pardon? Tourists are even given tickets. Tourists, of course. You know, Mr.

Speaker, it is generally acknowledged in other parts of the world, if you are driving down through Maine or New Hampshire or the State of New York or California or on the Mainland of Canada ~nd you have a Newfoundland license plate and you happen to be in a restricted area or a no parking area,the police or the security people will be mostcourteous, they will come along and they will thank you for visiting their province.and they will say, 'Of course, yourealize you were in a no parking area, but we do not issue tickets to tourists.

So we hope you will enjoy your stay here, hope you have a good trip,and if there is anything we can do for you, well, drop in and we will be glad to help you'. But is that the way it is done in Newfoundland? MR. WARREN: No way. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, they have the Gestapo down at St. John's airport. They have the Gestapo in Confederation Building,at the Health Sciences Complex and at Memorial University. They have their e2B7

July 7, 1981 Tape 3122 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: storm troopers going around issuing tickets right, left, and centre. And it does not make any difference. If you are a tourist, if you are an official, if you are a cripple or an invalid or a sick person,that does not make any difference, stick a ticket on the windshield. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Do they get a commission, Mr. Speaker? Do they qet a commission for issuing these tickets? AN HON. ME'MBER: No,they get a bonus. MR. NEARY: They get a bonus at the end of the year. they issue? MR. DAWE: MR.

NEARY: Do they get a bonus for the number of tickets (Inaudible) • They are awful snarky and snappy. And I will guarantee you,for public servants they are awfully rude,some of them,too, awfully rude for public servants. They should take a Dale ~ie course. They come out like storm troopers and whack the ticket on the windshield of your car, and then,if you draw it to their attention,they lip you up, they will sauce you up,public servants,their salary is being paid by the taxpayers of this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, I am not apologizing at all for the length of time that I have taken on this matter.

I realize we have to have rules and regulations, I understand that, bqt_ I think we have gone too far and we have turned the public parking lots around federal and provincial buildings into a virtual police state, and if we do not fight against that,and if we do not try to stop it,the next thing there will be other restrictions placed on individuals going into these airports and into public buildings. I think it is shameful. I do not think there is anything severe enough for me to say about it. I think it is cruel and criminal , the way they treat our Newfoundland people,in a discourteous tl2BA

July 7, 1981 Tape 3122 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: manner, people who cannot afford tickets, who can barely keep body and soul together, going off with tickets that cost $5 and $10, taking the bite out of childrens mouths,issuing these tickets. And they do it in such a high-handed way that is what irritates me, they do it in such a high-handed way, Mr. Speaker, they do it just like the storm troopers, like Hitler's storm troopers. They would grind you down and put the heel of their boot down in your face,if they thought they would get away with it. It is not good enough treatment of our people.

And I am glad to have the opportunity under this bill to have my say, to make a few remarks about the way that both governments, both levels of government, the Ministry of Transport, the Minister of Public Works in,this Province, have turned the public parking lots into a police state, aiqed and abetted by rules and regulations brought in by this administration. I remember,a few years ago,this administration brought in an amendment to

an act - MR. CARTER: I would like to have a few minutes too. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, you can have it now as soon as I am finished. I have five minutes left. - .. rules and regulations to give the security - to amend the ac~ to give the security officers at Memorial University practically the same authority as the Newfoundland Constabulary,to arrest people, to search · Untrainedpeople, Mr. Speaker, untrained! We just passed a bill in this House regulating sec~rity companies in this Province. Has anybody looked at the security people going around this Province lately? Just take a look at them.

I met one over at the Holiday Inn· Thesurveyors were having a convention over there, and they had a lot of valuable equipment downstairs in a room, so they had twenty-four hour securit~ They hired a local security company to provide the security for the equipment. Well, I am telling you, e2B8

July 7, 1981 TApe No. 3123 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: when I went in seven o'clock in the morning for breakfast, I thought I was at the United Na­ tions. You should have seen the uniforms. I tell you, the uniform that this fellow had on was more impressive than the one that is being worn by the gentleman who is sitting in the Sergeant-at-Arms seat, more impressive • Notmore imnressive than the han. gentleman,but the uniform. Well, you know, Mr. Speaker, I was beginning to wonder if these private se­ curity people had more authority than the Newfoundland Con­ stabulary or the RCMP. But there they were.

They are going around now dressed like policemen. They even had the badges and the numbers. They have everything now. They have the night sticks. They have everything but the gun. The only ones that have these are the RCMP, I suppose. I do not know. I believe the CN police, the CN security in this Province carry guns. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not know where it is all going to end. I really do not.

But I will tell you this, that there an awful lot of people pretty sore, an awful lot of people who have grievances, who have been walked on by these security people, by the rules and regul­ ations passed by this administration, that have virtually turned our public parking lots and the areas around public buildings in this Province into a police state. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (:s-a·ird) : The han. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I just wanted to say a few words in this debate, on the amendments to the Highway Traffic Act, concerning the compulsory insurance provision.

Now, the mem­ ber for LaPoile (S. Neary) is partly right. It is true that a lot of people are driving around in Newfoundland without B29n

July 7, 1981 Tape NO. 3123 EL - 2 MR. CARTER: proper insurance. And yet the laws of this land require you to have liability in surance. I am not sure of the amount, somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000. 1t is not all that expensive for someone who has a good driving record,but if you are under twenty-five and unmarried and have had even a ~ ouple of minor accidents, the amount, the cost of insurance-and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition. with his background in insurance business,can certainly contribute a little bit to this debate. He can pro- bably quote me the actual figures.

But there is no doubt about it,that the cost for someone who is not the best risk in the world- by this I do not mean someone who is a danger on the highway but someone ~7ho has had a couple of mishaps and is not in the A-1 categor y - the cost can be very great for adequate public liability insurance. And I think I am correct when I say that it can be more than a thousand dollars a year. The . Leader of the Opposition is nodding assent, so I do acknowledge that this is an area of his expertise, although I would not acknowledge that politics is such an area· But certainly the insurance - · MR.

SPEAKER (Baird) : Order. MR. s·riHLING: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: - the insurance area is one of his areas of expertise. Now,then, what happens- not everyone can fork out a thousand dollars or something greater than a thousand dollars at the beginning of the year to pay his insurance so they agree, quite properly, to pay it monthly, and that is perfectly acceptable and they make the first monthly payment. Perhaps the first payment is a little more than subsequent payments and they get their red or pink card which certifies that they are properly insured.

Now the next month comes along and perhaps they make the payment, perhaps they do not. Supposing they do not; their insurance obviously must lapse, but the insurance companies, I do not believe, are 8291

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3123 GS - 3 MR. CARTER: required to report that fact to the Motor Registration. And if they do report that fact to the Motor Registration, I do not think there is the mechanism at Motor Registration to deal with it. In other words, they would need - MR. STIRLING: They l"<ere required. When they started off they were so floode:i at .Mo'i: or .{egistration that Hotor Registration changed the act so that they are not permitted to z;:~rt. track. MR. CARTER: You are on the right I thank the Leader of the Opposition tMr. Stirlingl for his input because I think this is a very important point. The insurance companies certainl y. I know, were willing to report any lapses U29?.

- - ~- .'~ July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3124 SD - 1 MR. CARTER: or any insurance policies that had lapsed. But Motor Registration, I believe, felt that they could not handle the flood of information. And this, by the way, makes an added point; if there was a flood of information there must have been a lot of lapsed insuran~es. So there must be a lot of people driving without proper insurance. MR. WARREN: Right on. MR.

CARTER: Now I suggest, although I am not one to suggest any government spend extra money, I do think here that the minister would be well advised to make some provision for a division in Motor Registration to be set up just to handle reports of lapsed insurances and then upon receipt of such a report, and ?nee they are sure that that report is a valid report, that the insurance has indeed lapsed, they should call for the plates. Never mind cancelling the fellow's insurance, get the plates, get the car off the road. Let us not have any cars driving around in this Province unless they are adequately insured.

And I think if the minister, if the administration does that, they- Will achieve far more then if they bring in compulsory seat belt legislation or compulsory this or compulsory that. I would suggest,from what I hear, that something of the order of 25 per cent,or greater,of all cars driving in this Province are not insured for public liability. MR. STIRLING: (inaudible) . MR. CARTER: Let us get his plates. Let us Alright, but I think there are far more problems associated with having uninsured drivers going around.

You are an ' innocent properly insured driver, you get injured in an accident, it does not take much of an impact for your car to be written off. I ha~e seen in body shops a car, to my way of thinking, which was not really sericusly damaged and 1 yet 1I was assured that it would cost more to repair that car then the car was worth. The driver-although a lot of drivers now only have public liability insurance, that ~293

July 7, 1981 Tape No. 3124 SD - 2 MR. CARTER: is all they are able to afford, they cannot afford the collision and the comprehensive that would reimburse them if some uninsured person collides with them, they can only afford the public liability and,therefore,al­ though they are not a danger to others insofar as-you know, anyone whomthey struck would be not recompensed _yet they-do not have any means of getting any compensation for themselves. If they should strike a pole,or if they should go into a ditch they are completely out of luck, they are not covered for that.

So I think that I would urge the administration and the minister to do something, to set up a division in Motor Registration to handle lapsed insurance policies. I really think it is worth doing. And having made that point,and I think I have said enough about it, I think members on both sides of this House agree with my main points I will sit down and ask the minister to respond. r.m. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. STIRLING: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I just want to say to the member for St. John's North(Mr.

Carter) that one of the rules that I imposed on myself when I first got involved with politics,including municipal politics,is that I would not take

part in any discussion or debate relating to insurance. I followed that at City Council and I will follow that here be­ cause of any possible suggestion of a .conflict of interest or a vested interest. Let me say though,that ~n dealing with the Highway Traffic Act, I am very disappointed that the govern­ ment chooses late in the season,late in the sitting of this House - l)usiness of. the House defirl:~tely has been mismanaged and the:r:e are a number of things ±n this bill that should be looked at mu