Manitoba Hansard — 18 April 2001 (Sitting 14, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session -Thirty-Seventh Legislature ufthe I_.Jegislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Publi.\·hed wuler the authority of The Hmwurable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No. 14- I :30 p.m., Wednesday, April 18, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASIITON, Steve, lion. ASPER, Linda BARRETf, Becky, lion. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILU, Marianne CIIOMIAK, Dave, lion. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACII, Leonard DEWAR. Gregory DOER, Gary, llon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, llarry FAURSCIIOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, lion. GERRARD, Jon, lion. GILLESIIAMMER, Harold IIELWER, Edward IIICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATIILIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, lion. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, lion. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, lion. MIIIYCIHJK, MaryAnn, lion.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSIIO NOFF, Tom PENNER. Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, lion. ROCAN. Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, lion. SANTOS, Conrad SCIIELLENBERG, llarry SCIIULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, lion. SMITH. Joy SMITII, Scoll, lion. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWC'IIlJK, Rosann, lion. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political A fliliation N.ll.P. N.D.I'. N 1>1'. N.l>l'. N.I>.I'. N.IH'. N.D 1'. N.D.I'. PC'. I'.C.

I'.C. N.D.!'. N.D.P. I'.C'. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. PC . N.D.!'. N.D.P. N.D.I'. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.!'. P.C. N.IJ.P. P.C. N.D.!'. N.IJ.P. N.D.!'. N.D.P. P.C. PC . N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. PC . N.D.!'. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D P. N.D.!'. N.ll.P. N.l>.l'. I'.C. NDP I'.C'. N.I>P. P.C. N.ll.P. PC . NIH.

537 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, Apri118, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): I have a statement to make to the House. I have the latest update here. Levels of the Red River from Emerson to Morris rose one third to one half a foot since yesterday. There was little rise from St. Adolphe to the floodway inlet due to lowering of the gates of the floodway structure. The forecast for the Red River remains unchanged although some minor adjustments have been made at St. Adolphe and Ste. Agathe.

Further rises should be less than two feet. A minor closure in the Emerson-Noyes area will commence later today. It is unlikely that closures will be required in other towns or that PTH 75 will be closed. Levels of the Assiniboine River rose in the Baie St. Paul area overnight due to increased flows coming from Portage la Prairie. Flows in the lower Assiniboine are being increased as the risk of ice jamming is now minimal. The reduced flows in the Portage Diversion will help ease the pressure on Lake Manitoba which has risen from 81 1. 9 to 11 2.2 feet.

Outflows at Fairford Dam will be increased from 1000 to 3000 cfs tomorrow. This should be enough to keep the lake from rising above 812 .4 feet. In 19 96 and 19 97 the lake rose close to 813 feet. Levels of the Assiniboine River are falling from Millwood to Brandon as a result of cool weather on the Easter weekend. Rises will resume next weekend as a result of renewed melt, but serious flooding is not expected unless heavy rain develops. Streams in the Dauphin area are falling as a result of cool weather. Much snow remains in higher ground in the Dauphin area and Swan River area.

A fast melt with some rain would create some flooding. This situation will be watched very closely for the next several weeks. The Roseau River has crested, and no further difficulties are anticipated unless heavy rain develops. The Souris River is presently cresting at levels significantly lower than in 19 99. Low-lying areas are flooded from the international boundary through Hartney. Flooding from Melita to Hartney should end within a few weeks, but flooding at Coulter will last through much of May. The crest on the Pembina River is approaching La Riviere today.

Minor flooding of the valley from Swan Lake to Windygates will continue for the next 10 days or so. Flooding from Rock Lake to Swan Lake will continue until mid-May based on average weather conditions. Levels of the Whitemud River at Westbourne and the Fisher River at Peguis continue to fall. Overland flooding has subsided in the St. Laurent area but continues in the Ashern area. The weather outlook is still quite favourable although some precipitation is forecast over portions of the Red River Valley from Morris to Grand Forks late Thursday to Friday.

At the present time it appears that rainfall will not be heavy enough to have a significant effect on the flood situation. Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, thank the Minister of Conservation for that statement, and of course the best thing about the story that he is sharing with the Legislature is that levels are down, levels are down, levels are down, that the impact of potential flooding is minimizing each and every day. Of course, that is the good news and I think that everybody throughout the entire Red River Valley is certainly much more relaxed now with respect to any kind of potential flood threat.

There are the spots along the Whitemud, in the St. Laurent area and I understand in the Ashern area that of course are trouble spots yet, but they are also

538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 I having a positive downward effect, so those threats would also be minimized. Of course, I also would like to, with my opportunity here to respond to this statement, register the concern that we do need to move quickly on the floodproofing for the communities in the valley, to make sure those projects are finished and that those communities are protected for the future, and I think it also demonstrates too that as a province we should also be looking and investigating and working towards an overall water management policy for the province of Manitoba.

So I thank the minister for his statement and the reassurance that the flood is indeed minimizing. Thank you. * (13:35) TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the 1999 Annual Report of the Provincial Ombudsman with respect to The Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and The Personal Health Information Act. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): I am pleased to table the 1999- 2000 Annual Report of the Manitoba Round Table for Sustainable Development and the Five-year Report to the Legislature of the Ecological Reserves, April I, '94 to March 31, '99.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 200-The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I move, seconded by the honourable member for Beausejour, that leave be given to introduce Bill 200, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ies circonscriptions electorales), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), and a correction, seconded by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), that leave be given to introduce Bill 200, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Schuler: have the privilege of representing the residents of the Springfield constituency. My constituency encompasses the R.M. of Springfield and the R.M. of East St. Paul.

Both rural municipalities feel that it is time for both R.M.s to be reflected in the name of my constituency. I ask this House to give careful consideration to this bill, and when the time comes give it your support. Thank you. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have from Nelson Macintyre Collegiate 25 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Andrew Micklefield. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger).

Also, in the gallery we have from Maples Collegiate 18 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Roberta Garton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Aglugub ). Also, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us Jim Ernst, the former member of Charleswood. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Budget Business Incentives Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, last week the Calgary Herald was running stories about how aggressive Alberta is trying to court Manitoba businesses to their province. In fact, after hearing about the disappointment that Brett Young Seeds expressed about this Government's Budget and their failure to provide meaningful

April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 539 tax relief, the mayor of a small town near Calgary has gone full speed ahead to lure business to her community. Not only has she called officials at Brett-Young Seeds about relocating to Olds, Alberta, but she is also organizing conference calls amongst the board of directors. She is also planning a trip here to personally meet with the people from Brett young Seeds. In Manitoba, by refusing to provide meaningful tax relief and by failing to keep our province competitive, this Premier is building a one-way road out of Manitoba.

Could the Premier please tell Manitobans: What is his plan to keep businesses like Brett young Seeds, who have already stated, they have already stated, Mr. Speaker, that there is nothing in this Budget to keep them here, from moving to lower-tax, better-position provinces like Ontari o and Alberta? * (13:40) Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, in the articles dealing with the company named by the member opposite, the CEO mentioned that these issues had been raised over the last four years. I would certainly understand that in 18 months we cannot undo everything that the previous government has done. Mr.

Speaker, I met with a couple of CEOs from Alberta companies myself just recently. One of them was the CEO of a company from Albchem moving from Alberta to Virden, Manitoba, based on the cheap hydro-electric rates. Another CEO was coming in from Calgary looking at the expansion opportunities of Nexen, looking at Alberta, looking at Houston, and looking at Brandon, Manitoba, and they have decided to put their $60 million into Brandon. Those are real successes. I would ask the member to be much more positive and optimistic rather than negative and gloomy in this Chamber. Mr. Murray: Well, Mr.

Speaker, once again the Premier seems to realize and failed to realize that he is taking this province in a completely different direction than the rest of Canada. The other provinces are finding ways to make their provinces more competitive by providing tax incentives and finding ways to support education and health at the same time, including his NDP friends next door in Saskatchewan. As businesses are leaving, Mr. Speaker, he refuses to accept that reality. Even more startling and disappointing is that he refuses to do anything to prevent our businesses from leaving or anything to encourage them to stay here.

Mr. Speaker, in that Calgary Herald story Brett-Young Seeds President Tim Dyck is quoted as calling the Premier's Budget anti business. He is quoted as saying that he met with tax accountants who agreed with him that there was nothing in the Premier's Budget to keep them in Manitoba. The Premier made the choice not to provide meaningful tax relief, and he made the choice to make our province uncompetitive. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier please tell this House why he has not of fered Manitobans meaningful tax relief and why he is going in a completely different direction than the rest of the country? Mr.

Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, last week I quoted CIBC, the world's bank operation for that operation, with the analysis of the Budget. I further quoted Nesbitt Burns. I have a further set of analysis prepared by accountants BOO who talk about the Budget being good news for individuals and corporations who both received a tax cut. Mr. Speaker, I noticed in the Tory platform there was nothing about corporate income taxes. I notice that the corporate income tax reduction made by the Minister of Finance were the first ones made in Manitoba since the Second World War. Are they perfect?

Nothing is perfect, but it is certainly a lot more than what they promised and certainly a tremendous amount more than they ever delivered when they were in government. * (13:45) Mr. Murray: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Premier likes to talk so proudly of his meagre tax cut in personal income tax, but he wants to quote the CIBC. Could I quote a Manitoban who said: We have to do $10 million more in sales in Manitoba

540 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 to realize the same profit we would make if we were in Alberta? That is a Manitoban speaking. Mr. Speaker, in addition, the Calgary Herald

article of the CEO of Brett-Young Seeds said this Government's idea of a tax break, a decrease of one quarter of I percent in corporate taxes just does not cut it. He said, and I quote: It does not appear that tax competitiveness is an issue in this province. Today the Province put out a news release with the headline: Tax cuts brewing for Manitoba business. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Will they be applauding the same way when Brett-Young Seeds picks up and moves? Something is brewing for Manitoba business all right, but it is brewing in other provinces.

It is going to take more and more business away from Manitoba. In light of the fact that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) noted in her news release today that they supposedly recognize the tax relief measures in other provinces are an effective way to stimulate job creation and economic growth, will the Premier please advise the House and all Manitobans when his Government will start providing meaningful tax relief in Manitoba to allow the same to happen here? Mr.

Doer: I would challenge the member opposite to take the corporate income tax, go from 17 percent of tax to 15 percent of tax and come out with the same conclusion that he has just purported to have in the Legislature. We intend on being truthful with the people of Manitoba, being straightforward with the people of Manitoba and keeping our promises to the people of Manitoba. I recall the ghosts of Tory governments past where they promised to eliminate the payroll tax in four years. But you know what, they just did not tell us which four years. Maybe it is 2015 and 2016.

We promised in the election campaign to reduce the property taxes by increasing the property tax credit, something members opposite call a spending increase. Most people when they see their property tax bill will see a tax decrease of $75, building on last year's tax decrease of another $75. We promised to cut tmtwn fees, because when you talk about a learning society, an educated society, making post-secondary education affordable for our young people is part of our economic strategy, not having the Engineering roof leaking as we had with the former government.

We also said and we also delivered on more than we had promised by reducing income taxes, raising the threshold for small business and reducing corporate income taxes. By all evaluations, we have not only kept our promises, we have exceeded our promises. Brett-Young Seeds was talking about this issue, as they have been quoted, four years ago in the newspaper. We are going to keep our promises to the people of Manitoba, and we are right on target for exceeding those promises. * (13:50) Budget Business Incentives Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): The Business Council of Manitoba advised the Doer government that they had serious concerns about Manitoba's relatively sluggish economic growth rate. According to the Royal Bank's provincial and sectoral outlook for the spring of 2001, Manitoba's real gross domestic product will lag behind every province in Canada except B.C. and Prince Edward Island and will be well below the Canadian average.

Why in their Budget did the Doer government choose to ignore these warnings by sending the message to investors, employees and business that Manitoba is the highest-taxed jurisdiction outside of Quebec instead of outlining a plan to lift Manitoba out of the GOP basement it currently finds itself in?

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 541 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): There are many economic forecasts, and what we do is we take the seven from the Conference Board of Canada and the six major banks and come up with an average, and then go of f their number at a real growth rate of 2.4 percent. According to The Globe and Mail on the weekend, this moves us into the middle of the pack for provinces next year and even though we do not grow as fast as some of the hothouse provinces in the good years, we do not seem to slow down as much as some of the other provinces in the bad years.

We tend to have a fairly stable and diverse economy, and that will stand us in good stead in the time forward. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, I find it interesting that everybody is downgrading Manitoba's growth rate. Tax Rates Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I would ask the Minister of Finance, with the U.S. accounting for almost 80 percent of our exports, what is the Minister of Finance's plan to ensure that the economic slowdown south of the border that we are seeing right now does not have a significant negative economic impact on Manitoba? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, when you take a look at the plan we have in our Budget to make sure that Manitoba is well positioned for the future, when you see what we have done for education tuition fees, when you see what we have done to expand college opportunities for young people, when you see what we have done to reduce the small business tax rate by 3 7.5 percent and increase the threshold by 50 percent, when you see what we have done to reduce corporate tax rates for the first time since the Second World War, when you see what we have done on personal income taxes to reduce them by 10 .5 percent and then strategic investments in education and health, you know we are well positioned for the future.

Mr. Loewen: If the minister really believes that, I would ask him why he raised income taxes and why he did not provide tax relief until next year instead of this year. I quote from the Royal Bank's 200 1 Spring Report: consumer spending and the housing sector in particular is still weak, while non-residential investment in Manitoba is anemic. Why would the Doer government refuse to offer meaningful tax relief to Manitobans, the kind of tax relief that would allow them to purchase the goods and services offered by the province's business community? Why not now? Mr.

Selinger: There is something anemic in this House, Mr. Speaker, but it is not the economy of Manitoba or the direction this Government is taking. What we have done to reposition Manitoba for the future is to take a comprehensive approach to making sure Manitoba will have a prosperous future. This is a government that put $40 million into the Budget to expand the floodway, something no other government would do since 19 97 when we had the tremendous scare we had.

This is a government that put more money in the Budget for high-tech skill training for the aviation industry, something the other government had not done in the past. This is a government that has put money in the Budget for strategic investments in the health care system. This is a government that has a very favourable R & D tax credit for the future and has used its resources in Manitoba, including its Crown resources, to make sure that we can attract business and industry for the future. Healthy Baby Initiative Accountability Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Yesterday, the Doer government, when announcing the Prenatal Benefit program had its heart in the right place, I must say, Mr. Speaker, but its head in the sand by virtually gutting the Women and Infant Nutrition program that had in place measures of accountability and requirements for participating in nutritional and parenting programs. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Family Services indicate whether he has incorporated any measure of accountability or personal responsibility into the Healthy Baby program to ensure that the money, and it is very important,

542 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 is put towards feeding morns and babies in the province of Manitoba? * (13:55) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I am delighted that the Opposition supports the principle of the program, but they cannot quite bring themselves to support poor women. I am really sorry about that. About 5200 women in Manitoba each year will enjoy the support prenatally that Dr. Brian Postl called for and 20 other studies of early intervention have called for, started in the 1950s in the Montreal Diet Dispensary by Agnes Higgins.

These are programs that around the world have proven that if you spend a dollar now you save anywhere from two to eight later. The member wonders about accountability. Every time a Manitoba woman applies for this benefit she will apply through her doctor or her midwife's confirmation of her pregnancy. Every single woman will be contacted by our programs and offered support. Because Manitoba women will make good choices, we trust them to make good choices, they will respond to the offers of program involvement. We believe in Manitoba women.

We do not think you have to take a stick and beat them like the Opposition does. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, it all sounds wonderful on paper and corning out of this minister's mouth, but the proof will be in the outcomes that we see as a result of the programming. Reserves-Service Duplication Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Can the Minister of Family Services indicate or explain why his Government is duplicating the federal program, the Canada nutrition program already in place, by extending these services on reserves? Is it a duplication and an overlap of the same program that Canada has in place? Hon.

Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): I am delighted that our Government is offering support to all children. Babies are babies are babies; morns are morns are morns, and we are glad that is something we are making available. We have had the opportunity in the last year to work with a woman who worked very closely with the CAPC program. I am sure the member opposite is aware of that. We have designed this program in close collaboration with CAPC.

We are expanding our WIN sites, expanding the reach of the WIN program so that it will become a Healthy Baby program and not simply a program targeted at one small group of low income Manitobans, but all working-poor Manitobans. All low-income people who receive the National Child Benefit supplement from the federal government will be entitled to receive the same supplement prenatally from our Government, Mr. Speaker.

We are delighted that we have an integrated program now that Manitoba families with $32,000 or less net income, line 236 of the income tax form, can benefit from that support, because to feed a growing child in the womb to prepare for birth is an expensive process- Mr. Speaker: Order. Reserves-Service Delivery Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Can the Minister of Family Services clarify for all Manitobans whether in fact, when this program is extended onto reserves, the cheques will be written to the women directly, or will the money be flowed through the band councils, and will they be determining which morns and babes will receive the benefit and which ones will not? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): That is a very important question and I thank the member for it. All women who apply for the benefit will have the cheque in their name to them because they are the recipients.

They will use the money for the best interests of themselves and their children. Circuit Court System Closures Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Unfortunately, rural communities in western

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 543 Manitoba are once again feeling the impact of this Government's mismanagement of issues as they relate to services to people in these communities. I obtained a memo from the Provincial Court of Manitoba stating that as of May I, courts in Ross burn, Boissevain, Minnedosa, Russell, Killarney, Virden, Neepawa and Waywayseecappo will be canc elled until further notice.

I ask the minister: Would he please confirm this decision has been taken by the Provincial Court and indicate what hardships and delays residents of these communities are going to feel as a result of this change? * (14 :00) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, access of all Manitobans to the justice system is very important to this Government. I can assure the member opposite that as a result of an unfortunate coincidence of the illness of two judges in Brandon there is a need to do some rescheduling in the Provincial Court system.

The member I am sure knows that the scheduling issues are dealt with by the Chief Judge of the Provincial Court. It is not done by the Government. However, I can advise the member that the Government does determine where circuit courts are located, and there has been no change in direction at all. It is very important that the circuit courts maintain their current locations. I also can advise the member that, according to the Chief Judge, she now has a new proposal to deal with the Brandon judge issue.

She will be dealing in concert with the Associate Chief Judge in Brandon to rejig what I understand were some tentative plans. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, all I have in my hand is the memo that was sent out by the Provincial Court, and the memo cites "serious backlogs in Winnipeg and a shortage of judges" as reasons for cuts. The Associate Chief Judge Brian Giesbrecht states there is no extra capacity in the system. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice what impact these cuts will have to the dockets in other Manitoba communities as well? Mr.

Mackintosh: I do not understand the member's question in terms of cuts. There certainly have been no cuts. Indeed, in the 18 months since we have been in Government, we have appointed four new judges and it is my understanding that we now have a record level of full-time judges in the province of Manitoba. This is a matter of co-ordinating schedules across the province, which is the responsibility of the Chief Judge to manage. It is my understanding that she now has a new proposal she will be bringing to her counterpart, to the Associate Chief Judge in Brandon, to deal with this challenge. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I heard the Minister of Justice say there are no cuts. Can the minister then explain why, even though the Justice Minister's budget over the course of two years has increased by 12 .4 percent, there has been a cut in the courts of 2.3 percent in this last Budget? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, if the member wants to pursue particular lines in the Budget, we can look at that in Estimates. As the member should know, he cannot stand up in this House with his colleagues and cry more tax cuts, more tax cuts, more tax cuts and then find some item in the Budget he is not happy with and get up.

He cannot have it both ways, but I can assure the member that this Government is committed to ensuring all Manitobans have access to our justice system and there will be no reduction in the location of circuit courts. Circuit Court System Closures Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable today that this Minister of Justice is trying to deal with a serious problem in our court system by saying that there are no cuts. In this particular Budget, he has reduced the budget for courts by 2.3 percent when his own departmental spending is up by over 2. 7 percent.

So courts are obviously not a priority with him. I want to ask this Minister of Justice, when he says simply that it is a scheduling matter, why Associate Chief Judge Giesbrecht says very clearly that there is a serious backlog in

544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 Winnipeg and this is purely because this Government refuses to appoint the judges that are needed to do the job for Manitobans. Why is that, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that the Opposition is interested in this issue of backlogs, unlike when they were in government. It was under the former government that the prosecution service in this province did not have the support they needed to protect the safety of Manitobans.

As a result of an independent review by Ernst and Young, we now are taking action on that. We are going to make sure that our prosecutors are out of the coffee room, are out of the file room and are in the courtroom to help to reduce backlogs. Court System Plea Bargaining Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister, although he has increased significantly that part of his budget, he has reduced the budget for courts. I want to ask him then if it will be the policy of his Crown prosecutors to increase plea bargaining in order to keep trials down and to keep people out of the courts?

Will this minister be using plea bargains in order to reduce the demand on a court system he is depleting? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Unlike under the former government, Mr. Speaker, we certainly have no plans to do anything of the sort, and unlike as the Ernst and Young report found that the pressures on prosecutions resulted perhaps in some cases not being appealed when they should have, our plans are to ensure that prosecutors have the supports from this Government to do the job that they want to do. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know what this Minister of Justice says to the McLaughlin family, whose son was beaten to death in our province and for which Crown attorneys plea bargained a second degree murder charge to manslaughter. Is this indicative of what will be happening in our courts? As we have no judges, as those court dockets are reduced, will his Crown attorneys be plea bargaining in order to ensure that at least there is some semblance of justice? What does he say to the McLaughlin family? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I have answered the general question in my previous answer, but I find an extraordinary question now coming from the Opposition. The member knows full well the sub judice convention, which of course is designed specifically for matters currently before the court, and he knows full well that this matter is going to sentencing. I say shame. Maintenance Enforcement Office The Pas-Payment Processing Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice.

It concerns the administration of his department in the context of the recent Budget with its emphasis on increased expenditures and lower quality service in a whole variety of areas. In The Pas, for many years, the court office has collected and distributed the child support payments through the Maintenance Enforcement Program in a way that allows one parent to drop of f the cheque on the one day and the same day for the other parent, the ex-spouse, to pick it up so that you have excellent service and it happens immediately.

Why, I ask the Minister of Justice, is he changing the delivery of this program so that the fathers' cheques will have to go to Winnipeg and the mother will not receive the payment for probably about two weeks, giving poorer quality and higher costs? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Perhaps the member should review the experience of maintenance enforcement collection in this province, the recent experience under the former government, when he gets up so quickly to judge the changes that are needed in collecting child support.

There is no more debt owing that is more important than child support. That is why we are taking a comprehensive approach to changing the way that the maintenance enforcement system operates. We are changing the legal tools available to collect that support.

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 545 Mr. Speaker, what has happened under the former government is that there was a disjointed administration of maintenance enforcement in this province that was not serving the needs of those mothers and children who depend on this support. The Pas-Relocation Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin). I ask the minister why he is failing to protect the interests of his constituents from the empire building of the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Ashton), who has been successful in moving the files and the administration of the Maintenance Enforcement Program from The Pas to Thompson, so that people in The Pas will have to drive four hours to Thompson and four hours back in order to get service, instead of having it locally. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite should be as concerned as I know the Member for The Pas is in the well being of children and the mothers of those children in his community who rely on child support payments and who have to have a more effective way of supporting than what we saw under the former government. * (14:10 ) Budget Depenses et Services Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Ma question supplementaire au mmtstre des Finances: Pourquoi, je demande au ministre, votre budget et votre gouvernement donnent-ils un gouvernement avec plus de depenses que necessaire, et mains de services?

Translation My supplementary question to the Minister of Finance: Why, I ask the minister, do your Budget and your Government create a government with more expenditures than necessary, and fewer services? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): J'aimerais dire merci au depute de River Heights. Dans notre budget on a donne plus de services essentiels aux communautes qui en ont besoin.

On a depense notre budget dans les domaines prioritaires des residents, des citoyens et citoyennes du Manitoba, surtout dans le nord du Manitoba. <;a inclut bien sur Le Pas, Thompson, Flin Flon et toutes les autres communautes du nord de Manitoba et bien sur les communautes de Winnipeg, a l'exterieur, a la campagne et le sud aussi. C'est le premier budget depuis longtemps qui inclut les besoins de taus les Manitobains. Translation I would like to thank the Member for River Heights. In our Budget we have increased essential services to the communities that need them.

We have spent our Budget in the priority areas of residents, of the citizens of Manitoba, particularly in the north of Manitoba. That of course includes The Pas, Thompson, Flin Flon and all the other northern communities of Manitoba, and of course the communities of Winnipeg, its environs and the rural and southern areas as well. It is the first Budget in a long time that includes the needs of all Manitobans. Budget Cultural Industries Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Recently comments have been made about a film being shot in Minnedosa.

I am really pleased to say that there are also parts of a film being shot in my own constituency in one of the older buildings. My question is directed to the Minister of Culture, Heritage. The Budget mentions support for new media. Can the minister please explain why our Government is giving increased attention to the cultural industries sector? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): I would like to thank the Member for St. James for her question. I know the members opposite are very interested in this sector because it continues to be one of

546 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprill 8, 200 1 the fastest growing economic as well as job creation sectors in the country. We, as a government, want to ensure that Manitoba's participation in this expanding sector and global industry does not lag behind other provinces. I know that Manitoba's artistic community, whose creative energies drive the cultural industries sector, is recognized worldwide for its innovation and excellence. So we want to retain our talented, artistic community in the province of Manitoba.

We are very pleased with the Budget, and they are very pleased with the Budget, as well, with regard to our support of this industry. Thank you. Gilbert Park Tenants' Association Funding Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, the philosophy of tenant self-management in public housing has brought stability, community involvement, empowerment to tenants, and a low vacancy rate in Gilbert Park complex. The success of the Gilbert Park Tenants' Association should be undeniable, even to this minister.

How does the Minister of Family Services and Housing justify his elimination of the funding to the Gilbert Park Tenants' Association as of March 31, 200 I? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, our Government supports the notion of self-management. We have over 17 000 units of housing in our department which are managed by community groups, and we are very pleased with the management services that those groups provide. The policy of self-management does not always mean that the actual effect of it is as beneficial as we would want.

The current Government, for example, we are working with Lord Selkirk Park towards self management through a $1 45,000 grant from the Winnipeg Development Agreement to help those tenants move to self-management. However, in Gilbert Park the experience over the last couple of years has not been as positive, and it was the belief of this Government that you have to be a careful steward with public funds. You have to spend those funds to get effective results. We were not getting the results. We will be having a tenant annual meeting in June in Gilbert Park.

Hopefully, they will elect a representative board and we can get back to work with that new board, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the minister: Is he working for the tenants of Gilbert Park or for the special interest groups that serve the Doer government that disagree with the association's policy of hiring community and tenants for the maintenance and the upkeep for this public housing complex? Is that the reason behind why he has pulled the funding on this group that was working very successfully without any problems or disagreements from the tenants?

This was totally within their own department for the pulling of this funding. Mr. Sale: No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, will this mm1ster meet with the Tenants' Association of Gilbert Park and explain to them exactly why he pulled the funding on this and also present them with the petition that he says is behind their willingness to take the funding away from this group? Will he meet with the Tenants' Association and clarify their position with the Government? Mr. Sale: Our staff has met repeatedly with the two remaining members of that board.

The other member does not live in the project anymore, so there are only two left on the board. We have worked to ensure that the more than 50 percent of the tenants who signed a petition opposing the current board and of fering a great number of concerns about the current board's policy will have a chance at an annual meeting that is fair and free to elect a board, perhaps including some of the existing members, Mr. Speaker. We will work with that board, as we have worked with boards in the past and will in the future, to achieve effective tenant self-management. East St. Paul High Voltage Hydro Lines Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, last night the Minister of Hydro did not find it important enough to attend the East St. Paul meeting where over 250 residents participated.

April 18 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 547 Can the Minister of Hydro explain why the families of East St. Paul were not allowed to attend the meeting held by his whitewashed Clean Environment Commission, or would that have been a waste of time as the answer was prepared before the questions were asked? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Well, first of all, the Clean Environment Commission prepared a report and developed a consensus statement, which has been endorsed by Dr. Margaret Fast and by Dr. Jim Popplow, both of Manitoba Public Health; Dr.

Harry Johnson, the department head of imaging physics and radiation protection of CancerCare in Manitoba. This consensus statement was made available to the residents. The Clean Environment Commission had tried to organize a meeting with the residents for April 11. The residents cancelled that meeting. I am inf ormed today that the residents have again contacted the Clean Environment Commission, and they are looking at setting up a meeting towards the end of April.

I think it is very important that the residents in that area get accurate information about the risks that are not going to be visited upon them by these hydro lines and have accurate information, because there has been a lot of fear mongering going on here which does not serve the public interest. * (14:20) Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Hydro do the courageous thing and hold an open meeting with all the residents of my community? Will he listen to their concerns about his doubling the power towers in East St. Paul? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, this project was initiated by the former government, and the former Minister of Hydro was not prepared to do anything over and above the environmental impact review being done by the Department of Conservation. That environmental review came back without any concerns about the project going ahead. We went the next step and asked the Clean Environment Commission to hold an independent review of the literature, of the research that has been done on this very important topic.

Their independent review, reflected in a consensus statement, signed by our public health officials in Manitoba, including experts in CancerCare here in Manitoba, indicates that they do not see any association. The preponderance of evidence now indicates that there is not a cancer risk here, and I ask the member opposite when he will communicate that information to his residents rather than the scurrilous information he provided them last night. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Of ficial Opposition House Leader, on a point of order? Point of Order Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. One should choose their words very carefully in this House, and I would only hope that the Minister of Finance would choose name-calling that would not render upon him. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that that particular word that is being referred to has been accepted in this House on an ongoing basis. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order? Mr.

Laurendeau: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 492: "The following expressions are a partial listing of expressions which have caused intervention" by the Chair, and the word "scurrilous" is in there. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members that a point of order and matters of privilege are very serious matters. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please.

548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I thank all members for their advice. I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. *** Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Farm and Food Days Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to put a few words on the record about the Heart of the Continent Farm and Food Days that will be held July 26-28, 2001, at the Red River Exhibition Park.

Sponsored by the Valley Agricultural Society and the Red River Exhibition Association, last year's first-time event was designed to promote agriculture and to increase awareness of agriculture and food production in Manitoba. Farm and Food Days provided an important opportunity for all Manitobans to learn a bit more about this province's agricultural industry. The Winnipeg-area setting made it possible for a large number of school groups to visit Farm and Food Days .. Students had the chance to see first-hand the many types of equipment being used on Manitoba farms.

They also spent time in a barn and learned more about how cattle, hogs, horses and poultry are raised as well as some of the more exotic creatures. It was encouraging to see that many people from across the province came out in support of our agricultural community and to learn more about this diverse industry. I would like to thank all those involved in seeing the inaugural Farm and Food Days through to fruition and look forward to this event this year being even bigger and better in 2001. Remember the dates, July 26 to 28, 2001. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Health Care Initiatives Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): It is indeed a great pleasure that I rise today to bring attention to some of our Government's many initiatives in health care, in particular this Government's most recent investment in state-of-the-art medical and diagnostic equipment. Mr. Speaker, as part of our commitment to enhancing the quality of health care in this province, our Government will be investing over $22 million in diagnostic equipment that is critical to providing effective and accessible health care services to our citizens.

This funding will be used to install a new MRI machine at Health Sciences Centre and to purchase three new CT scanners for facilities in The Pas, Steinbach and Selkirk. This funding is a significant step towards addressing a decade long diagnostic equipment deficit. The new CT scanner slated for Selkirk General will have many positive effects for residents of both the Interlake and the Northeast Regional Health Authorities as it will enhance services for a whole range of illness and injuries. Mr. Speaker, as well, the Selkirk Hospital will be receiving an additional ultrasound unit to handle increased demand.

Mr. Speaker, it is estimated that there were 5000 individuals in the Interlake and Eastman Health Authorities that are making this trip to Winnipeg each year for a CT scan. The new equipment in Selkirk will make a big difference for our region as we will have these tests that we need in the comfort and convenience of our community. I want to congratulate the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) for taking this very positive step. Thank you. * (14:30) Spendingffax Cuts Ratio-Budget Mr.

Peter Dyck (Pembina): While my colleagues and I have expressed concern over the amount of new spending in relation to the amount of new tax reductions in the 200 I Budget, the ratio determined to be 6 to 1, members opposite have accused us of miscalculating these numbers and claim that spending only outweighs tax reductions by a ratio of 3 to I.

April 18, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 549 Mr. Speaker, I would like to read from a recent news release from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. "A recent 'Fast Facts' release from Manitoba Finance is playing fast and loose with the truth by circulating inaccurate information on the ratio of program expenditures to tax cuts outlined in the 2001 Manitoba Budget. "'The government's 3:1 spending to tax cuts ratio is of f by a country mile,' noted Victor Vrsnik, CTF provincial director.

The Finance Department misrepresents the equation by including tax cuts announced from last year without balancing the equation with new spending increases from last year as well. "According to the provincial government's 'summary of 2001 tax measures' and their 'operating expenditure estimates,' outlined in the 2001 Manitoba Budget, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation estimates that the new expenditure to new tax cuts ratio is 6:1." Mr.

Speaker, the numbers we have used to express our concerns are not only accurate but are echoed by independent agencies and independent examinations of this Government's 2001 Budget. It appears as though it is the Doer government that has been involved in some very creative mathematics. Thank you. Red River College Expansion Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, today I would like to inform members of this Assembly that work has begun on the construction of the Red River College expansion.

This $31.5- million investment on Princess Street is an important part of this Government's strategy to enhance the education and training opportunities available to our young people. One of our key commitments to Manitobans is to restore hope and bring new opportunities to the young people of Manitoba. The new campus for Red River College is a key part of this plan. This new campus will focus on information technology, media studies, and other disciplines related to the new economy.

The 2000 students and 200 faculty that will be housed in the new Red River College campus will be training for careers in information technology and media sciences, these being a perfect fit for the emerging businesses that are already developing in the Exchange District. The new downtown campus is one of the most exciting developments to take place in the Exchange District in many years.

When coupled with our Manitoba Bursary Program, the first since 1992, and the 10% tuition reduction realized by students last year and renewed again for this upcoming school year, we are making progress and fighting the legacy of chronically low college enrolment left by the previous government. We are committed to providing the support that students need to succeed and are pleased to see work being done on this new campus expected to be receiving its first students by the year 2002. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Maintenance Enforcement Office Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak on an important issue in The Pas. Since the inception of the Maintenance Enforcement Program in Manitoba, the court office in The Pas has collected and distributed child support through the program. People living in The Pas who were required to pay child support could go down to the court office and pay the support. The court office would receipt it and then either mail it out or hold it for the payee to pick up. Very often, men would pay their support on the same day that the women would pick it up; thus, no delay was experienced by the women and children relying on this service.

The legal profession has recently been informed that all the files under this program are being moved to Thompson. Men can still come to The Pas court office to pay the support, but the staff are directed to forward the support payment to Winnipeg. Apparently, the cheques will then be mailed to women in The Pas area from Winnipeg so that there will be quite a delay. The files are being transferred to Thompson to be administered from there so that people in The Pas can travel four hours there and four hours back if they need service.

550 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 2001 As you can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, this new system will result in lengthy delays for women living in the area. Their ex-spouses will have paid the support on time, but they will be unable to receive the support until it is processed through an of fice in Winnipeg. The most frustrating thing about the new NDP system is that the old one was working quite well on a local level. The public, who the system was designed to serve, was able to go to the court office in The Pas and speak to the designated enforcement officer if there were any problems.

Under the new system, women will be given a toll-free number in Winnipeg to call, and experience with this number suggests that there will be lengthy delays. The local bar was never consulted about the change. The women who rely on the service were never consulted. There are extra expenses because of eight new positions in Winnipeg and two in Thompson. What an example of poor service and higher costs. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on House business, I would like to ask the House for unanimous consent for the Sta nding Committee on Agriculture to meet concurrently with the House this afternoon. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for the Standing Committee on Agriculture to meet this afternoon? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I would like to announce that instead- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. It is very difficult to hear. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce that, instead of meeting this evening at 6:30, the Standing Committee on Agriculture meet today at 5 p.m. to discuss the organizational aspects of the committee's consideration of the agricultural resolution. Mr. Speaker: It h� been announced that, instead of meeting this evening at 6:30, the Standing Committee on Agriculture will meet today at 5 p.m. to discuss organizational aspects of the committee's consideration of the agricultural resolution. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on House business I think, for the sake of the public, it should be made aware to the public that there will be no public representations at this meeting, that this is strictly a meeting to establish the ground rules of what the committee will be doing. Mr. Speaker: For the public's information, this meeting at 5 p.m. is an organizational meeting and is not open to the public. For clarification, the meeting at 5 p.m. will be open to the public, but the public will not have the opportunity to participate. It is an organizational meeting by the committee members only. Mr.

Mackintosh: Further to this business, I wonder if there is leave of the House not to call quorum between five and six this afternoon in light of the standing committee meeting simultaneously. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement of the House between five and six that no quorum count will be entertained or called for? Agreed? [Agreed] BUDGET DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, and the debate remains open. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the privilege of putting a few comments on the record regarding the Budget that was brought down last week by the Doer government. I am disappointed to see, however, that it is a budget that has kept middle income earners amongst the highest taxed in the country. This is a budget that will cause more of

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 551 our young people to move away to seek better opportunities in provinces and states that are by far more attractive places to live, work and raise families. Mr. Speaker, governing is about making choices. Last week the Premier made a choice to keep middle income earners among the highest taxed in the country. He made a choice and decided to spend $6 for every $1 of tax relief. He made a choice to spend, spend, spend. The kind of spending we are seeing is unmanageable and unsustainable over the long run, particularly in the area of health care.

We have seen health spending increase by $469 million over the 19 99-2000 Budget. That is 22 percent in two years. That is almost half a billion dollars. Half a billion dollars. Health spending is now 38 percent of Manitoba's total budget. It sits at $2.6 million. Because we have not seen a plan for health care, I have little comfort or little confidence in this Government's ability to manage the health care changes wisely. They do not appear to be looking for the efficiencies in health care. They do not seem to be looking for the innovations, which could help make our health system stronger.

Instead they stumble from crisis to crisis and throw money at everything. * (1 4:40) It is so interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that right after the NDP formed government the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) said and I quote: We do not have any control over spending. The buck stops nowhere. Mr. Speaker, it appears it still stops nowhere. The minister at the time said when the Budget was $2.1 million that spending was out of control in health care. He called it a disaster. Half a billion dollars later, I wonder what he calls it now. The Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) also said that everyday he spends on the job is like a frightening ride on a runaway train. Well, it appears that train may now have derailed itself , Mr. Speaker. Where will the spending in health care end? How can it possibly be sustained at this rate? Where is all this money that the minister has now built into the baseline going to come from if there is an upcoming economic downturn? After riding an election promise to eliminate hallway medicine and fix health care in six months with $15 million, the Doer government has pumped half a billion dollars into health care and guess what?

We still have hallway medicine. Health care is not magically fixed like they claimed it would be. They thought it would be so easy. In opposition, they demanded over and over that the Tories put more money into health care. We added money to meet health care demands as they arose and as we were able to do that. Then they became government and accused us of reckless spending. Then guess what, Mr. Speaker? They built all this so-called reckless spending into the Budget and added 6 percent on top of that. Then they overspent that amount by $75 million. While the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) has said that the buck stops nowhere, he is wrong. Whether they like it or not, the buck stops at the desks of the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Health Minister. They have choices to make, and in this Budget, they chose to spend, spend, spend. As we unravel their spending in Estimates, it will be interesting to see where they have chosen to spend, why they have made those choices, and if it is actually making a difference to the patient. Are patient outcomes better? The evidence is saying no, Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact that the Doer government has increased health care spending so that Manitoba spends well above the Canadian average and spends more than any other province in Canada on a per capita basis. I am very concerned in particular, Mr. Speaker, about the economics of the deal of the Pan Am Clinic. There is no policy framework or business plan for this deal. There are a huge number of questions to be asked on this particular issue, and I do look forward to finding out the details of this deal.

At this point in time, I will not dwell on this particular subject, but I can assure the minister that there will be a number of questions forthcoming on the whys and wherefores of that particular deal. Has all of this extra spending in health care, half a billion dollars almost in two years, helped

552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 200 1 them to keep their election promises? Mr. Speaker, the answer is a resounding no. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet was the NDP theme song at their party convention held in February. We thought it was an appropriate kind of music given the NDP's long list of broken health promises. We think the party is correct; we ain't seen nothing yet. We have not seen a dam thing from this party after a year and a half in of fice. We ain't seen an end to hallway medicine, and we ain't seen hospital waiting lists slashed.

We ain't seen an end to the nursing shortage and we ain't seen an end to rethermalized hospital food. We ain't seen more full-time nurses. We ain't seen 10 0 more beds immediately reopened. We ain't seen better consultation with nurses. We ain't seen comprehensive recruitment and retention strategies for any of the health care professional groups. We ain't seen health care fixed with $15 million. We ain't seen responsible health care spending based on a plan. We ain't seen health care being rescued. Mr. Speaker, this Premier (Mr.

Doer) and this Health Minister have got to grasp the simple concept that simply throwing money at problems is not going to solve them. They have to have a real plan to address the very real health care issues that are alive in our province, but they have failed to deliver that plan. Our priority as a province must be providing patients with quality and accessible health care services. Health care in Manitoba and throughout Canada is facing unprecedented challenges. To face these challenges, we need to take

part in a dialogue about the kind of health care system Manitobans want for themselves and for their families. We need to develop solutions to the challenges facing health care to ensure a stable and sustainable system. We commend frontline health care professionals, Mr. Speaker, who have been working beyond the call of duty to provide the best care they possibly can. They are telling us that the status quo is no longer sufficient. We strongly encourage this Government to listen to them and to listen to their suggestions for improving health care in Manitoba.

The challenges in health care are many, and they are mounting. They include unacceptably long waiting lists for appointments with doctors, appointments with specialists, treatment following those appointments, diagnostic tests, specialty treatment like radiation therapy and sleep disorders, emergency care, and that only names some of them. Also among the challenges facing the system are staffing shortages, those which are growing and those which are just emerging.

We see dramatic shortages in the area of nurses, family physicians, radiation therapists, physio therapists, occupational therapists, neurologists, pathologists. Our health care system faces a number of fundamental serious problems. They need to be addressed so that Manitobans can get the treatment they require. Mr. Speaker, patients who rely on health care services and who fund our system through their tax dollars should determine the health care system and the legislative framework that reflects their priorities and values. We have started this dialogue; it is called Connect Manitoba.

A particular aspect of it held recently was the health forum called Health Options, attended by some 17 0 people who had valued this wonderful opportunity to get together and state what was on their mind. Although we have just started this dialogue, it must continue to expand. This Government has got to engage Manitobans in a meaningful dialogue on the future of their health care system. Imposing their ideological-based will on Manitobans without first asking them how they would like their health care system to develop is absolutely unacceptable in my view.

The Doer government has pretty much slammed the door on any public debate. Big Brother knows best for the people. Big Brother is going to decide. Mr. Speaker, this Budget did not provide a comprehensive long-term plan for health care. This Government has not provided a plan to improve efficiency in both spending and management of health care. What this Government does provide is an ad hoc approach to health care. Indeed, they have even admitted that they failed to keep their commitment to end hallway medicine.

April IS, 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 553 While we note that the Government reaffirmed the need for financial accountability from the RHAs, they did back off of the strong language they used last year when they stated RHAs would have to avoid deficits. Interestingly, when last year they approved the budgets for the RHAs, it was interesting to note that they allowed two thirds of the RHAs to present deficit budgets, and they accepted those deficit budgets despite the strong language used during the budgets that the RHAs would have to avoid deficits.

It is interesting, on the one hand, they would say that, and on the other hand, they would actually then tum around and allow and accept deficit budgets to be put forward by two thirds of the RHAs. Mr. Speaker, an interesting one that I do want to take a moment to discuss and certainly set the record straight on is the whole issue of the NDP continuing over and over to say that the Tories fired a thousand nurses. * (14 :50) Mr. Speaker, they continue to place false information on the record with their assertions that the Tories fired a thousand nurses.

It certainly is a politically opportunistic thing for them to do to keep bringing this up over and over. They feel they score big points with the public when they do that. It is interesting, I am now starting to hear from more of the public that are saying: Why does the NDP continue to do this. The NDP knows that a thousand nurses were not fired. Why do they keep perpetuating that myth. The NDP knows full well that because there was no mobility clause in the contract, nurses had to be laid off so that they could be rehired during a time of health care reform.

The majority of those thousand nurses were simply redeployed to different health care facilities. In fact, of those nurses, 830 were later rehired; 274 of those nurses originally laid off chose to retire. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government knows full well those numbers. They have been made fully aware of what happened during health care reform at that particular period of time. Despite the fact that I am sure they have also had briefings from their department, this minister stiii chooses, this Premier (Mr.

Doer) stiii chooses to perpetuate this myth that the Tories fired a thousand nurses. Well, that is absolutely bunk because those nurses, had they had an opportunity within their contract for a mobility clause, would not have gone through this particular system of having to be laid off in order to be later rehired. I could ask the Minister of Health and I could ask the Premier then if they want to continue to go down this path, why then have they just fired 350 VON nurses in Manitoba. We have a nursing shortage here. We have a crisis here.

We have a vacancy of nurses that has jumped from 600 to II 00 under their watch. I would have to tum around and ask the NDP, Mr. Deputy Speaker, why have they fired 350 VON nurses? I also want to know then why they are going to fire all the nurses from the Morden and Winkler Hospitals in the near future. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is a game that can be played. It is definitely a politically opportunistic game to play, and the NDP play it particularly well, but the fact of it is that I 000 nurses were not fired in this province during health care reform of the '90s. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, any comprehensive plan for health care would have to include a vision and ideas for the future. Clearly the NDP do not have a road map for the future of health care in Manitoba because they have not presented Manitobans with a plan that includes a mention, for instance, of anything to do with information technology. They certainly criticized us during our term in government, but we see nothing forthcoming from them. There is no mention of a plan to any degree at all for mental health improvements. There is no new plan for addressing our nursing shortage.

They certainly do not say how they are going to attract or keep nurses in Manitoba. In fact, the two-year diploma program, although it is almost one year into its existence, stiii has not been approved. There is no plan for attracting or retaining allied health professionals. Where is the plan for the physios? Where is the plan for the occupational therapists? Certainly groups that I have recently met with feel that this particular

554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 200 1 Government has been bargaining in bad faith on their particular settlement. There is no mention of progress indicators to measure progress in restoring health care as promised in the Throne Speech. There is no mention of their election promise to put nurses in schools. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there was so much missing from this Budget in the area of health care and in terms of a plan and a vision for a future, it is really hard to support a Budget that does not do anything but spend, spend.

There was no path to follow, and so money keeps getting dumped in, but we really at this point do not have much of an idea where that money is going or whether or not it is having any difference at all on patient care. I want to talk now a little bit about hallway medicine, but it is actually hard to know where to begin. Considering the Finance Minister (Mr.

Selinger) is the only member opposite with the courage to admit that his Government's election health promises were irresponsible in the area of hallway medicine, indeed in his Budget last week he admitted that his Government still has not ended hallway medicine. In fact, the NDP ran on a campaign of quick-fix solutions. There were no ifs, ands or buts about it during the 19 99 provincial election campaign, and there should be none now. The Health Minister indicated that he would end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million, but he has failed. The problem now is far from being resolved.

In fact, there are more patients in the hallway now this year than there was last year. The NDP promised to end hallway medicine six months after the election, in fact by April 5, but hallway medicine is still practised in many Winnipeg hospitals. In fact, at a news conference at Red River College on September 20, 2000, the Premier (Mr. Doer) himself admitted that his Government did not fulfil the promise to end hallway medicine. The Premier claimed that the broken campaign promise is due to the nursing shortage. Well, what a surprise.

Where was his head at prior to the election because he certainly knew even then that there was a nursing shortage? This nursing shortage has been in existence for some time now. The Premier knew it. The Minister of Health knew it. Despite that, they made those promises in the 19 99 election campaign. Hallway medicine has again become an issue in recent months even though there has not been a winter flu outbreak.

Had there been one, we certainly would have seen additional strain put on the resources and, I think, a much more critical situation than what we have seen because we have not seen a totally successful plan rolled out by this Government. Something that particularly disturbed me in October of last year, an elderly man died in his wheelchair in the waiting room of an emergency department while he was waiting to be seen. The Health Minister last year blamed the summer bout of hallway medicine on bed closures due to holidays, but Victoria General Hospital said it did not close any beds this past summer.

The truth is that the NDP government did not fulfil its promise to open a hundred new beds. They made it sound like they would snap their fingers, and they would have this miraculous cure. They would have more full-time nurses. They would have more nurses. They would have a hundred new beds. They would end hallway medicine. Certainly, like a bubble, it has burst on them, and they have not achieved any of the health care promises made during the 19 99 election. The Health Minister now says that the problem is going to be solved with some fine tuning. One has to wonder what that is going to mean.

November 23, 19 99, the Health Minister said: There will be no patients in the hallways. That is what we were elected on. The Health Minister (Mr. Chomiak) April 6, 2000, said: The phenomenon of hallway medicine has been largely eliminated. I believe we have lived up to the commitment we made during the election campaign. The Finance Minister, on the other hand-and we do have to give him credit for his courage and his forthrightness in making the comment on Insight in September of 2000 that their promise to end hallway medicine was indeed an irresponsible one. * (15 :00) The Premier (Mr.

Doer) in September of last year said: There is no question that we feel that the Jack of nurses has been a major impediment in fully implementing all the commitments we

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 555 have made. We cannot just add water and mix to get a trained nurse. He certainly led Manitobans to believe that he could. In fact, Manitobans believed him when he said that he could end hallway medicine. He was convincing, despite the fact that he knew the challenges were insurmountable. He knew he would not have an opportunity to be able to meet those particular goals set forward, but he made the promises anyway. Now, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, probably the most insulting thing to Manitobans: Recently on Insight, the Premier has said that Manitobans have misinterpreted what he promised during the election campaign. He did not really promise to end hallway medicine. It is now Manitobans' fault, he says, because they misinterpreted the Province. That is absolutely unbelievable and disgusting and disgraceful for a premier to now make comments like that. This now from the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak).

The Minister of Health probably has one of the most interesting explanations for what was promised, and you have to listen to this one because this is what the Minister of Health said they promised. He said what his party pledged to eliminate was, now I quote: The persistent everyday someone in the hallway getting medical treatment on a regular basis all year round, unquote, situation we have seen in ORs. Mr. Deputy Speaker, can you believe some of this backpedalling? Can you believe how they are squirming out of the biggest promise they made during the election?

It is disgraceful for a government to be behaving like that. Manitobans are still going to the United States for treatment, and when one considers that the nursing shortage has doubled over the last 18 months it is obvious that nurses have not been hired either. It was revealed that although the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority was running a $1 0-million surplus, two days later we heard that doctors at St. Boniface Hospital had to cancel revision surgeries for hip and knee replacement patients due to cutbacks. In the House the other day, the minister said something that I find quite shameful.

The Minister of Health indicated that we on this side of the House were passing around information that was inaccurate. He indicated that we had told people that the fact that these doctors were cancelling their surgeries was a fabrication, I guess, of our imagination. In fact, these two doctors from St. Boniface Hospital were compelled. They felt that they had to mail out a letter to their patients notifying them that they could no longer provide service to their patients. This was not an invention of ours.

This was a situation where two highly trained, highly specialized, very, very good doctors in their field felt compelled to write a letter, and they said that it was with deep regret that they could no longer provide service to their patients. Sixty patients were sent this letter. This was not a fabrication of the Tories. For the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) the other day to even suggest that we were circulating irresponsible information again is just some bunk, and it is absolutely shameful that the minister would even indicate that.

The doctors had indicated that the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority had placed extreme financial constraints on their program because of the program costs. The doctors go on to say that they have an 18 -month waiting list for surgery and with the new cutbacks even further stress is placed on their clinical practice. They even went so far to say that they felt they could not provide their patients with safe, quality health care as they have previously promoted. They indicated that they strongly regretted their decision, and they did look forward to solutions.

It is so interesting that when we bring stories like this forth that the minister almost infers that they are a fabrication, a figment of maybe my imagination, when in fact we were dealing with some very, very clear facts and a letter that we had and numerous letters from patients and phone calls from patients. The Minister of Health tends to get so indignant when we put faces on the numbers, yet when he was in opposition he was a masterful person at doing that, and now becomes so indignant when he has to now face this kind of a situation himself.

He certainly plays politics, and he was playing it with these patients the other day. I find that particularly shameful in a situation where we are talking here about patients that were in a considerable amount of pain, in desperate need

556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 200 1 of surgery, and were being turned away by our health care system. I would like to know how the minister could justify cancelling the surgeries when two days prior to the letter-receiving people there had been a news release from the WRHA indicating that it was running a surplus. If these surgeries have now been reinstated at St.

B, as the minister indicated the other day, then I certainly would like the minister to tell us exactly what has been reinstated, where it has been reinstated, and if these physicians could carry on their good practice as they have been doing in the past. Even though I do support the Health Minister's attempts to encourage fiscal accountability throughout the health care system, it should not be done at the expense of patient care, especially when the minister promised to slash waiting lists and guaranteed in last year's Budget that his Government sufficiently funded the health care system.

Well, if he sufficiently funded it last year, why did they end up going over budget by $75 million in health? The nursing shortage has certainly doubled, but this Government does not deal with this problem in their Budget in any significant way. Even the Manitoba Nurses' Union stated they did not see anything in this Budget to address the nursing shortage, and it is interesting that this Government has tried to take credit for doubling nursing enrolment in this province.

I should remind all members opposite that while there will be 508 nursing grads in the year 2002, 418 of those grads enrolled under the Manitoba nursing education strategy, which was initiated long before they were in Government. Only 90 of those students are from this Government's reinstated two-year RN program. Again it seems they have a little bit of trouble with numbers when they are trying to take credit for this huge increase in enrolment and only 90 of those students they can truly take credit for. I think it is a real discredit to the people that are actually doing all the work out there.

That certainly is the Faculty of Nursing at the University of Manitoba. This Budget also provided no plan for addressing doctor and specialist shortage, and it contained no plan to attract or retain any of the health care professionals in Manitoba. I would be interested to know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if the minister does have any plans to add more students to the system. I would also be curious as to why this minister waited one full year before admitting more students into the medical school, because certainly the talks for that had happened while we were still in government.

That program could have been implemented one year prior to when it was. I do wonder why the minister waited a year to do it and then why he only chose to put 15 med students into the system. Certainly he had an opportunity to do more, and not just rural spaces.

Some of the propaganda that is out there right now, maybe the member from Dauphin would like to just pay particular attention to this because his name is certainly attached to obviously what must have been a news release from his Government, where he was certainly taking shots at our leader, indicating that we did not vote for their Throne Speech and therefore we did not support their physician recruitment and retention plan. * (15:10 ) Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, their Throne Speech had absolutely nothing in it that addressed health care in Manitoba.

So to have voted for it would certainly have not been in anybody's best interest. Also, the Member for Dauphin has indicated that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) rose in the House-th is was in the fall session and only brought up the issue of the number of doctors in Charleswood when he went on to say that our leader had said that there was nothing at all but the shortage of doctors based in our rural communities.

The member from Dauphin also stated that there is currently one doctor per 2000 patients in rural Manitoba, one doctor per 5000 in northern Manitoba, and in Winnipeg there is one doctor per 600 patients. I would like to inform the member from Dauphin that the reason the Leader of the Opposition stood in the House and asked that particular question on that particular day was because their recruitment and retention plan for physicians dealt largely with only rural issues and the rural physician crisis. While we support

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 557 that part of it, we also would have supported a more comprehensive approach that also addressed the urban issues. I am in a situation in my Charleswood constituency-and that is why this particular issue was brought up in the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker-where I have three physicians in Charleswood who each have 4500 cases. That is way above what this member put forward in his news release and in his quotes to the paper that in Winnipeg there is only one doctor per 600 patients.

I have three doctors in Charleswood who have 4500 cases, and I do not think this is an isolated situation. I do not think that this is just happening in Charleswood. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the other issue that certainly does need to be addr essed right now is my wonderment, I guess, as to what this Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) is doing with the medical equipment fund of $3 7.1 million that has come to this province from the federal government. We know that that money flowed into Manitoba in October of last year.

We know that that money was sat on for six months rather than being put into needed diagnostic equipment, whether it was purchase of new equipment or repairs, and we know that with a lot of the pressure that has been on this topic over the last several months once we found out that they had the money, we note now in this Budget that the Minister of Health has committed first-year spending which is last year's spending and they are only going to spend it in this Budget of $1 8.6 million.

That money is now going to be spent. also, through a request from the department, have found out that the Department of Health, the Minister of Health, has only spent $9 million of provincial money on medical equipment in this last year, half of it for repairs and half of it for new equipment, so that when the minister stood in the House the other day and grandstanded about buying all these CT scanners, well, of course, he should; that is what this money was meant for. This money was specifically earmarked for medical equipment only. I have to wonder, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, why that money came into that province, ended up, well, we are not quite sure where it all ended up because we still have not seen the second year's commitment at all. In fact, the second year, that should be spent in this budget year, is now put forward to next year. If this Government was so committed to timely access to diagnostic treatment and care, then I have to wonder where is their commitment in terms of action. They certainly put forward in terms of language.

It is easy to say things, but it sure is hard for them to follow through and come forward and address this appropriately by putting that money where it should be, and that is into medical diagnostic equipment. Mr. Deputy Speaker, personally, I find it very, very unethical that they would take this money from the federal government, and they would sit on it for the time they have, knowing that it actually delays access to timely treatment and care in this province. In the Budget, it indicates an expansion. There will be money used for the expansion of acute care services, dialysis, cardiac care.

Well, I should hope so. I mean, it does not take a rocket scientist to know that these are issues that do need attention in this province. In fact, we heard about a cardiac care situation yesterday, where a Mr. Jack McDowell, who had a heart attack in January, has had to spend 700 of his own dollars and go to Regina so that he could get a test, an angiogram, and subsequent angioplasty. So with all these grandiose promises made during the election, we have to wonder why is Manitoba so far behind in ability to deliver its care. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are so many other issues that I would like to talk to.

Ambulances, people are still wondering, after their grand announcement, where are the ambulances. Where are the dialysis supports in this system? On a final note, something that has really struck me were remarks made by Dr. Albert Shumacher, the president of the Ontario Medical Association, in March, to the Canadian Club of Toronto. I would like to quote a few of his statements. He said there is a crisis in health care now, and the future looks even more daunting. I want to make my case by outlining three propositions. These are his quotes. The first is that our health care system faces an unprecedented crisis.

The second is the need for dialogue about the kind of health care system Canadians want for

558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 200 1 themselves and their families, and the third is the urgent need to develop and implement the solutions needed to ensure a stable and sus tainable system of care in future needs. That is what the Tories are proposing in terms of addressing health care in Manitoba. We must invite and engage Manitobans into a dialogue. We have a health care system that we worry about the sustainability of it, and we do not support the fact that the NDP government has not promoted any dialogue with Manitobans. That is something we believe in.

We feel that it is very important for self-examination, serious debate and ultimately meaningful reform. I am sorry that I did not see any of that in this particular Budget. I think this Budget has been a major disservice in terms of health care. It has been a disservice to Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. * (15: 20) Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is really a pleasure today for me to stand and speak to a good balanced budget here for Manitobans.

The member opposite mentioned a few of the attributes in her blather there that I will expand on a little bit. The Budget was formulated by listening to Manitobans. The consultation that we believe in very strongly on this side was to balance and listen with an inclusive ear to all Manitobans here in our province. The extensive consultations that were done by the minister in many, many of the communities throughout the province proved to be very fruitful and to be part of our Budget for and with Manitobans, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I believe this Budget truly reflects a balance that Manitobans have envisioned for a number of years. It reflects the priorities of families and communities and neighbourhoods and . a rebuilding in our province that has not been seen for some 12 years. The Budget hits people at home at the kitchen table. It is a doable, realistic, balanced budget, and choices were based on what Manitobans felt was important to them and important for the Government leadership to do.

The overwhelming support on the initiatives we have done to improve and rebuild health care in this province was directed in this Budget to huge expansion in moving ahead with our health care, and we heard it very strongly from Manitobans, that health care is the No. 1 priority. We listened and it was reflected. Education, as well, was listened to by Manitobans, the vision of an educated population here in our province for an economic development strategy, and that is reflected throughout the Budget.

The competitiveness of our small business and large business here in Manitoba is one step forward again in this Budget, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The small business taxes have been reduced constantly both throughout our first Budget, now into this Budget, and as many have mentioned on this side before me, for the first time in some 50 years, since the second World War that the members opposite seem to be living in, has shown a leap ahead in corporate taxation here and an advantage here for Manitoba that is certainly a step in the right direction.

It shows a commitment to the public services and the values that people put into their public services here in Manitoba while committing strong measures to debt reduction, reduction in pension liabilities and the significant tax cuts that we have seen, that most people here in Manitoba will see a 10 .5% reduction in taxation by the year 2003. We hear the members opposite, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, stand and speak to not moving quickly enough in some of the reactions to the rest of Canada, and it astounds me that they have the audacity to get up and speak after doing nothing for a decade in many of the measures that we have taken the resources and put them toward and the reductions, putting us into an advantage here in our province. It just absolutely astounds me that they would speak against Manitobans' wishes on improved health care, education and to position ourselves for competitiveness here in the province of Manitoba.

They pick selective numbers and the members opposite have used different numbers and tried to confuse the public, but just in speaking to people on the doorstep and speaking to people generally since our Budget came down on the 1Oth, people are not fooled by it. They

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 559 know that a family of four with a $60,000 income has total savings of income and property taxes on a balance by the year 2003 of some $2,545. That is progress, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and people realize it. The Budget reflects certainly the strong views, not too continuous with the previous government's ill-conceived and short-term vision, or should I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the lack of vision and irresponsible spending beyond our means. Many of the members opposite like to flog themselves as pretty good readers of the bottom line on financial plans and budgets.

If that were truly the case, they would recognize the improvements that we have put into this Budget. Previous administration and members opposite had a whimsical spendthrift mentality that saw terrible overspending to the point, even during our good economic years, of the huge draws that the members opposite used to take out of Manitobans' bank account, the fiscal stabilization account, to the tune of $18 0 million that they took out and called it a balanced budget in their last year in office. That is not a balanced budget.

People know that you cannot continue to overspend money out of the bank as the previous administration had done-[interjection] It certainly was a shell game. Members are right on at that. I know the members prior, I do not imagine they run their own family households that way, but they certainly were spendthrift with Manitobans' and other people's money. It was very, very unfortunate. Our first year in reduced the dependency by a half , $90 million.

Absolutely incredible that it was cut in half just to actually show a true balanced budget, and then this year greatly reduced to the need of not needing to dig into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund that the members opposite had done. I reiterate, they had done that throughout some of the best years and some of the best revenues this province had and still could not stay within their means. That type of irresponsible accounting certainly infuriated Manitobans and direct wishes were put into this Budget. There will no longer be that type of dependency on the Fiscal Stabilization Fund.

We cannot, and Manitobans know we cannot, continue to sell of f our resources and sell of f our companies that are doing so well such as Manitoba Hydro, and as a previous administration had done the Manitoba Telephone System that was undersold and let go for bargain-based prices just to put some money in the bank so they could squander it away over a short period of time. That will not happen. People realize that. They saw that in our Budget.

I believe you should look to a third party obviously and Manitobans have looked to a third party, certainly when it comes to jockeying around in the shell game that the members opposite had played. I know other members have spoken to this. The CIBC, the World Markets brief document by Mr. Warren Lovely, certainly exemplifies exactly the way the financial community is recognizing our previous Budget and again in the expansion on it with this Budget. Of particular note was Mr.

Lovely's comments that note the 200 1 Manitoba Budget reinforces a commitment to reduce taxes, pay down debt and the investment in programs, while maintaining a true, positive fiscal balance. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that speaks volumes when you have a third party like Mr. Lovely, a very, very well recognized person in the financial community and certainly not noted for being left leaning or certainly fronting things that are not true.

I think even of more note was that the true budgetary surplus of $26 million actually exceeded the $1 0-million target that we had initially thought and that speaks volumes for the efforts of our Finance Minister this side of the House. Manitobans recognize that with last year's tax reductions and this Budget's tax reductions Manitobans will see double-digit personal income tax reductions by 2003, slow and steady and a movement forward. Manitobans recognize this. Continued cuts to small business tax, the increase in the income threshold from $200,000 to $300,000 by the year 2002.

Many, many small-business people in the province here have mentioned the 50% increase in that area will stimulate and produce economic growth here in our province. They have been hoping for some movement in that area for a number of years. The business community is very excited about the positive steps forward of this Budget.

560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18, 200 1 Manitobans now have the strongest disposable income growth in 20 years. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is the lowest that we have seen since I believe it is the year 19 76. It shows the progression in this province. It shows the positives in this province. It shows why many people are starting to come from Alberta and make investments in our province in their small business. * (15: 30) I know the Premier (Mr.

Doer) spoke a little bit today about a few of those companies, and certainly one that is close and near and dear to the area that I come from was Nexen Chemicals. It is a company that is well recognized within our community.. They have made substantial investments in and about the Brandon area for a number of years and again another investment of $55 million with another increase in employment in the Brandon area. As well, within the Brandon area was Albchem Industries, another sodium chloride plant that has invested $50 million and plans to open up a starting employment of 21 personnel.

The reason for coming to Manitoba has been the vision this side of the House has had for a number of years, the hydroelectric power that we have. It is a renewable resource. It is a clean, environmentally sound resource. Manitobans recognize that with this side of the House there will be a number of new incentives. In Alberta certainly some of the companies in Alberta are starting to recognize the Manitoba Advantage out here in the hydro rates. The Budget also speaks to some of the investments in health care.

When we look at the past administration, the promises made and unkept can be numbered from election to election to election. Prior to election, promises made; after the election, promises broken. Brandon Regional Health Centre is a good example of that. Right from somewhere around 19 90 there were promises of expansion and dollars to be put into that facility. Certainly as a community member there, I noticed right after elections those promises continually broken. The last one that was broken, I think certainly people in the Brandon area had had enough of broken promises.

We have invested substantial dollars into what should be a regional health centre in the Brandon area. It certainly supports local areas, a large surrounding area in the southwest part of the province. Many, many of the people in the rural community utilize that health care centre, and it will be funded as such. The criticism that can come, that is constructive criticism and suggestions, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this side of the House is cer tainly always willing to listen to that. However, uninformed lack of vision from some of the members certainly is hard to take.

We mentioned fuel taxes and some of the things that members opposite had thought should be a reduction in fuel taxes. Quite frankly, the reduction that they had wanted, it is actually below that point already on fuel tax in Manitoba. Someone opposite had mentioned that the 13.5 cents per litre of fuel tax should be reduced. Well, totally inaccurate information, and I would suggest that some members opposite do a little bit more homework before throwing out numbers such as that. The Budget continues forward the visions of Manitobans.

Certainly with the initiatives of rebuilding health care, which was a priority in the Budget, education and many others, it exceeded the expectations that Manitoba had. I have had that coming back certainly to myself, and many of the members on this side of the House have mentioned it as well. When you look at the investment, members opposite like to claim the sky is falling and things are falling to pieces here in Manitoba, that is certainly not the case at all. Here in Manitoba there is a very good flavour out there. People know this is a good place to invest.

They know that Manitoba is a quality province to reinvest in and as well to expand in and move their businesses here from other locations. When you go down the list, Mr. Deputy Speaker, since September of '99, it is incredible the amount of investment that has come into the province on a large scale. Certainly another one that is in the Brandon area, I know both the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Caldwell) and myself are very proud of this company. It has been a company in Brandon for some 27 or 28 years. It continues over and over to make investments in the Brandon area, and that is the

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 561 J.R. Simplot chemical company. It is located in the Member for Brandon East's area, and it employs 230 direct employees with over 500 indirect and at-the-farm-gate jobs. They have invested another $12 0 million in their phase-one expansion. Palliser Furniture, I know the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) had mentioned this previously, the investment there of $20 million over five years, with employment in the first phase 200. The total employment we brought up to 1200, to 1400, total jobs.

Kitchen Craft expansion, excellent Manitoba company that continues to expand here in Manitoba, the investment there $26 million, with employment 300 to 500 jobs. Loewen Windows is another example, a good Manitoba company with an investment of $20 million, 250 jobs. The electronics expansion, Vansco, the investment of $12 .4-million expansion was announced January 13 of 2000, employment 240 new jobs. Gage, investment of $1 million, brought total employment up in numbers to 226.

IBM, employment another 40; Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting, the investment there continues, the poultry industry here in Manitoba, expansion of the industry by $15 million, the list goes on and on. There are some four and a half pages that I have here, with investments such as Air Canada adding to the accounting jobs here in Manitoba, bringing the number of employment up here in the city of Winnipeg. The Tolko industries, the expansion, their initial investment of $35 million, employment 200, Warehouse One, the clothing production facility that they have will be an expansion of employment there to 10 0.

The PeaCan Mill Producers, pea processing plant in Miniota, with an investment of $850,000, there is new employment there again here in Manitoba. The number of small businesses with 25 employees or less, we hear over and over again the expansion of the small business growth here in Manitoba and what they feel are some excellent incentives in this Budget to shape their bottom line even further than had been in the Budget previously last year.

Members opposite may not feel that things are going quickly enough in the direction that they would like to see, but certainly it has gone in a direction that business here in Manitoba has recognized as being extremely positive, in the right direction and making us very competitive with our neighbours throughout Canada. The Budget as introduced this year showed a commitment to a well-rounded, balanced budget, not just to one sector of our society but certainly a little bit for everyone.

When we think of the education advances that we saw previously last year in the Budget and we saw certainly this year in the Budget, really affects families. I know from the years 19 90 continually up to 19 99, certainly in the city of Brandon, we saw over and over again the underfunding of the educational system. You can steal from Peter, but sooner or later Paul has to pay. People recognize that, by not committing in the '90s to education and to the funding that was needed in the educational system, the money had to come from somewhere.

People wanted to see the standards of quality of education kept up in their communities. They wanted to see the vision that we see, a well-educated workforce and giving all individuals the ability to have a good education and for that education system to be funded. * (15: 40) The Tory tax credit was ripped away, reduced from $325 in the mid-'90s down to $250. It was another reduction. It was out of the pockets of Manitobans here, and it seems that members opposite do not want to put a percentage or talk about that part of it, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, but that is just another area where every homeowner in the province of Manitoba over these last two Budgets has seen an average decrease because of the $15 0 that we have re-invested back into a property tax credit for Manitobans. It has been on &verage a 9.3% reduction in their property tax credits. Some people with higher property taxes will be less; others with lower property taxes, that number will be increased to the mid-teens. The one thing people recognize is the commitment of that $15 0 to the bottom line, to their pocket, to their wallet, to their benefit, that this Budget shows.

562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 200 I The property taxes that I saw escalate in Brandon in certainly '97, '98, '99 issued by the school division because of a lack of funding in education during those years were in the double digits. Certainly the last year, going in '98 it was 9 percent on property taxation. So the incredible increases have stopped. It is being funded now properly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the point of inflation. The rising costs in schools have been recognized in this Budget, and they are seeing for the first time in a decade real funding back into the educational system.

The health care that we saw deteriorate over the period of the '90s, starting in 1999 when we came into office was by June of that year somewhat overspent, over $10 0 million overspent by the previous administration, and that has been stabilized. It was stabilized in the first Budget and again restabilized, and certainly increases for regional health authorities to assist them with putting together their budgets with the funding increases and the support for some of the new and creative approaches in service delivery has been backed by this side of the House.

The conversion of the Pan Am Clinic as a recent example of the Government's commitment to preserve public health care while improving services to Manitobans has been very well received and very well appreciated. The fear that Manitobans have and I believe certainly all Canadians have is the two-tier health care system that is being flogged to our neighbours to the south.

Certainly the Klein government has moved a step in that direction, and I believe that is why the members of the House here opposite who seem to always want to compare ourselves to Alberta, it seems to be one of the biggest reasons they would like to move toward that system. We do not believe that is a system that Manitobans want. We have heard it over and over again, that Manitobans want quality health care here in the province of Manitoba. They want reasonable health services provided by the Government, not a two-tier health care system where only the very wealthiest will get the best of health care.

That is not the vision of this side. That is not the direction that this Budget goes in, and many Manitobans recognize and appreciate the efforts, certainly the positive efforts on the conversion of the Pan Am Clinic here in Winnipeg. We believe on this side that the future, universal, public, not-for-profit health care system is what Manitobans want, and they saw that reflected. Given the incentive back to graduating doctors here in the province, certainly introducing incentives to keep doctors here in Manitoba after they graduate has been targeted. It is targeted in this Budget.

Certainly adding 15 medical school spaces with 9 dedicated to training family physicians for rural and northern Manitoba is a step in the right direction. When we see our rural people here in Manitoba that in some instances are 6000 per physician, it is obvious that an initiative should be directed in that area. That initiative is being taken. Instead of cutting medical school spaces here in Manitoba, we are now going to build on our health care system here in Manitoba and add spaces to it.

The nursing task force will be providing resources for immediate action to respond to the report that they will soon be completing and be introducing. Certainly having those folks work towards some of the solutions in Manitoba as professionals as frontline people in the area knowing the issues is going to be incorporated. I know the internal medicine graduates certainly support a need to provide the added care, and that is initiated in the report as well. The increase in funding for health care is certainly welcome.

Our financial plan has incentives in health care funding to a new high of almost $2.6 billion, or approximately 38 percent of the entire Budget in Manitoba, remains certainly on course and continued. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitobans that we have spoken to previous to Budget and certainly after Budget have come back. You take all diverse groups here in the province. We can use the example of a larger family, by today's stand ards anyway, a family of five with two earners here in our province, the income averaging around $75,000.

In 200 1, tax reductions will be $882 and total projected savings from the year 2000 to 2003 will be $3,36 1.

April I8 , 200 I LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 563 Mr. Deputy Speaker, $3,36I is a lot of money to the pockets of Manitobans and certainly to their families. Parents of one child on the other end of the scale with an income of around $30,000, the I99I tax reductions will be $455 and a total projected savings through the years 2000 to 2003 of $I ,6I7 . You look at a senior in our province, a single senior with an income of $20,000, tax reductions and savings of $35I for the 200 I Budget. That is a lot of money to a single senior here in our province.

Thirty dollars a month is a substantial saving and certainly can go a long way to assisting them. Total projected savings for them throughout the years 2000 to 2003; $I ,23 1. A family of four with one earner of an income of $40,000, we see tax reductions in 200 1 of $582, with a total projected savings through the years 2000 to 2003 of $2,259. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Manitobans realize the progress of tax cuts that we can afford.

I spoke earlier about not breaking the bank and overspending the dollars as the previous accounting we saw throughout this previous administration where you start spending your hard-earned money that is in the bank and overspending on your revenues and what you actually have. Manitobans know that this is affordable. They know that a I 0.5% provincial income tax cut by 2003 is balanced. They know that it is managed.

They are assured that it is dollars that we can aff ord to do with the many other incentives that are being done in what they have certainly let us know is the top priority here in Manitoba that we knew going into the election in '99 of health care. They are seeing other expansion in education and knowing how important that is to people and families. We saw in our first year's Budget a 10 % decrease in tuition fees in the province of Manitoba, and this year again, that being maintained. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that is a huge impact on families and for families having a vision of educating people in their families and giving them the opportunity and the legs to stand on going into their adulthood into whatever they choose for their field. The health care incentives over the last I8 months as well as the number of patients in hallways were something that was a priority set by this going in '99.

It was decreased, and the reduction has been some 80% reduction on an I8 -month basis that Manitobans recognize is a strong commitment to the health care system, a strong step forward, an 80% decrease in hallway health care here in the province of Manitoba We know there is a distance to go to make that zero. We also know that that other 20 percent that are being counted certainly are not overnight stays in many, many cases.

Many of it is people who are coming in and the triage being done in the hallways for an extended period of a couple of hours, however, not overnight stays and people spending days at a time, as we saw throughout the late '90s and into '99. People have seen a huge step in that direction. * (1 5: 50) The diagnostic equipment was identified, certainly is undervalued here by the previous administration; $22 million in this Budget to replace and upgrade aging diagnostic equipment, with a further $I8 million next year, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, goes a long, long way to some of the problems that we have seen in waiting lists for our diagnostic equipment here in the province. Our ongoing support for extended nurse training and recruitment programs, building on the enrolments that have already increased some 60 percent since our initial initiatives were introduced. The number of graduates here in the province will be up certainly almost double over what the previous administration would have done under their previous projections. That is well recognized by Manitobans here in the province.

The new initiatives and better care of co ordinated emergency rooms, the regional health authorities can better manage, in a timely and predictable manner, their budgets by the new process. Disease and illness prevention becoming a stronger focus, adding to recent init iatives in the Health Check public information campaign, the meningitis vaccination program and the largest flu vaccination program in the province in Manitoba's history. Many other points that this Budget touches on, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are certainly worth

564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 18 , 2001 mentioning. Health care has certainly been the priority. People notice the improvements. Education. Over the last 18 months, on our first Budget and now into this Budget, we have increased funding to public schools by $47 million, compared to an increase of $15 million in the five budgets from '95 to '99. Manitobans recognize it. They recognize it on their property taxes, they recognize it in the classroom, and they hear it from the educators.

The post secondary students, we have heard from over and over again what a difference it makes to them on a personal level. We are seeing the increase of enrolment certainly from our first year to this year expand in a huge amount of enrolment increase. It is obvious that this incentive is well received. It is obvious that this makes an impact to people's decisions on whether they can afford to go to school. Previously, we had seen a 10 % increase yearly, on average, from 19 90 to '99. Brandon University, I will use it as an example, saw a 10 2% increase over those years, at roughly 10 percent per year.

Assiniboine Community College saw a 214 % increase throughout those years. What they have seen in the last two years is that has stabilized. They have seen that not only not increase by 10 percent; they have seen it remain a decrease of 1 0 percent for the second year in a row. It gives families and it gives young people in our communities the feeling that this Government is behind them, that this Government supports them and that this Government sees value in their continuing their education here in the province of Manitoba.

The $10 0 million in capital funding to colleges and university was obviously well received. We saw deterioration in the infrastructure in our education facilities here that was unprecedented since most of them were built, and now they are seeing a reinvestment in some of the capital needs that have been long overdue, certainly a commitment by this Government with considerable dollars and a hope for the future that this can be kept up and maintained and not let slip into the cracks as it did from '90 to '99.

The academic year of 200 1 will see approximately 10 % more Manitobans attend community college and a thousand more spaces made possible throughout this budget year of 2001, which is an incredible step forward. Mr. Deputy Speaker, education and health care and also when we look at putting families first, I think many, many of the people in the community recognize it. When we put families first with initiatives like child care funding increases of 7.7 percent, building on last year's 18 percent, it certainly hits a broad spectrum of families that are out there.

The child care facilities in the province certainly have recognized the increases and the support that they have seen over these last two budgets; 7. 7 percent is a large increase. Our first Budget tried to stabilize and bring back 18 percent. They recognized as well that it could not be continued at that level; 7. 7 percent was certainly well received. The 42% funding increase for Healthy Child Manitoba was introduced last year to better focus resources on early childhood development.

The new Budget completely ends clawback of national child care benefits for hundreds of families on income assistance here in our province and for children aged six years old and under. The new prenatal program helps more low income mothers meet the special nutrition needs of pregnancy. These initiatives are extremely well received and funding has been put into place in this Budget to meet those needs. The Neighbourhood Alive! program that was certainly targeted here in the city of Winnipeg, Brandon and Thompson has seen rejuvenation and revitalization of many of our neighbourhoods.

Certainly the funding there has been continued into this Budget. It is people in place in the communities doing some of these pilot projects, if you will, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and looking at the expansion of this program throughout Manitoba possibly into the future but certainly seeing the funding back into place again into our Budget this year. The Neighbourhood Alive! and Lighthouse program is positive, it is stronger and it certainly builds safe and strong communities. The support for family violence prevention certainly puts families first. The programs in the

April 18 , 200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 565 women's shelters and the investment that we have put into those programs are well recognized. Certainly of incredible importance to Manitobans both in the urban area here in the city of Winnipeg, city of Brandon, Thompson and some of the larger communities is recognized very, very strongly in the agricultural initiatives we have put in and built into our Budget, well recognized. We had a debate here that saw a lot of tension yesterday on agreement from both sides of the House that quite frankly was very impressive.

I think most members recognize that the federal government has to get into the game and be part of the solution for us, but we continue to fund agriculture, we continue in this Budget, a 6.3% increase over last year. [interjection] The member opposite says: Why do you not decrease it? I cannot go along with the member opposite. We increased the spending on health care and are very, very proud of it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Just in closing, I know my time is quickly up. The positives of this Budget Manitobans recognize are tax cuts we can afford. It is a balanced budget for families, communities, and neighbourhoods.

It is well recognized that our vision is for people in Manitoba. We want to expand our economy and do well. Thank you very much. * (16: 00) Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is always a pleasure to speak to a Budget. I am pleased that the person who is charged with crafting the Budget is with us today, and I would like to give some credit where credit is due and make some comments that maybe he would take to heart in terms of the direction he would go with the next budget.

It is a monumental task to put a budget together, and few people understand the time and the energy devoted not only by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) and Treasury Board staff but also the Treasury Board people and the Finance people who bring forward options to the minister and to Cabinet and right through the departments that are asked to look at ways that they could spend less and also to bring their wish list forward. So having the job completed is certainly a satisfying one I am sure for all of those people, and

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5700e4a51862f9b758b1b7b241689681b078b3a3

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