December

12, 1996

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLIII No. 52

The House met at 2: 00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I rise today on behalf of all

members of the House and indeed on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador, to congratulate Dr. Max House on his appointment on his nomination as

the Lieutenant-Governor for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

At the same time, I wish to extend a sincere thank you to His

Honour, the Honourable Frederick Russell and his wife, Mrs. Russell, who have

served the people of Newfoundland and Labrador faithfully and with great energy

and great dedication over the past five years.

Mr. Speaker, His Honour's extensive background of community

and military service on behalf of his Province and indeed his country have

reflected well again and again, in his service as Lieutenant- Governor, and the

government is pleased and proud to have had the benefit of his advice and his

experience over these last five years.

Mr. Speaker, His Honour has had five decades of continuous

service to the people of this Province and indeed to the people of the country.

He began that service with great courage and great distinction back in 1942 - a

period of 1942 to 1945 when he served as a Mosquito night fighter pilot with the

Royal Canadian Air Force, trained in this country but he served in Britain,

France and in Holland. After the war years, Mr. Speaker, he assumed greater and

more important roles and responsibilities in a wide variety of fields in the

business life of this Province. Indeed, he was a very important contributor for

many years to labour relations as well in the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Among his many distinctions, was a period of time as Chairman

of the United Church School Board here in the City of St. John's; he was

Chairman of the Board of Regents of Memorial University. He was named, Mr.

Speaker, a member of the Order of Canada and, Mr. Speaker, served in a wide

variety of fields, a great deal of it volunteer time, freely given with no other

expectation of any reward for himself or for his family other than the

betterment of the community, the Province and indeed of the country.

Mr. Speaker, on a personal note, in the time that I have been

here, I want to extend a personal `thank you', and in so doing, I think I

reflect the feelings thank you to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor whom I have

made it a practice to see regularly for breakfast meetings, to seek his council,

to seek his advice, to draw on his experience, and I hope I have been able to

perform better in my duties because of that time which he has so freely given,

and I know the same was true of Premier Wells when he was here as well. Mr.

Speaker, today we thank him for a job well done and we thank Mrs Russell as

well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: The Lieutenant-Governor's shoes, because

of the great energy, the tremendous energy, and organization he has brought to

the job, of course, will be both literally, and I am sure he will not mind my

saying, figuratively, hard to fill, but I think an excellent candidate has been

nominated.

Dr. Max House is a superb choice to represent the Queen in

Newfoundland and Labrador. He, too, has a long history of service to the people

of this Province, dating back to the 1950s when he was a medical practitioner in

Baie Verte. From 1960 to 1965 he was the only neurologist serving in the

Province. Later he served as the Chief of Neurology at the General Hospital in

St. John's, from 1966 to 1974, and Professor of Neurology at Memorial University

School of Medicine, a school which he played a significant role in establishing

during the 1960s.

Dr. House's commitment to high standards of medical education

and service, and his previous experience with the difficulties of providing

adequate medical care in a remote area, led him to the work that has brought him

international recognition. In 1976 Dr. House founded the Telemedicine Centre at

Memorial University, and as a result he is known as a Canadian pioneer of

telemedicine, and is also widely acknowledged as a world pioneer in this field.

Under Dr. House's guiding hand, the Telemedicine Centre at

MUN has brought international recognition to the university, and indeed to the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. At home, his leadership in telemedicine

has fostered a relationship between health and education users within the

university and throughout the Province, with the result that facilities

initially developed for health care now play a major role in distance education

at both the secondary and post-secondary levels.

Mr. Speaker, Dr. House's experience is so well regarded that

he has been called upon to serve on numerous local, national, and international

committees. He has delivered keynote addresses at conferences in more than

thirty-five countries, and has directed many telemedicine and distance education

projects in Africa and the Caribbean.

Mr. Speaker, the role of the Lieutenant-Governor is an

important one - indeed, a vital one - for the exercise of government and

democracy in our Province. With his long record of public service, Dr. House is

a superb choice, and I believe that all members, and indeed all the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, will be proud to have him as our new

Lieutenant-Governor. On behalf of the people of the Province, I wish to

congratulate Dr. House, and his wife Mary, on this important appointment, which

is to take effect early in February. Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too join with the

Premier in congratulating Dr. House on his appointment to his new position to

take effect in February. I also certainly join with him too in thanking, and

certainly I speak on behalf of the Official Opposition here, His Honour the hon.

Fred Russell and his wife for their contribution to the position over the past

five years. I'm sure His Honour Mr. Russell too has given distinguished service

in a very professional manner. He has contributed to the history of our Province

over many years.

Dr. House is an excellent individual who has had a very

distinguished life in this Province in the medical field. He served at the

General Hospital as the Premier mentioned when - in fact, I worked there during

three different years, and he was Chief of Neurology there, and he was a very

well respected and noted physician and specialist in that area. I certainly have

all the confidence that the integrity and the professionalism that he brought to

his regular working life will be exhibited in his new position as

Lieutenant-Governor in this Province. I wish him and his wife all the best in

their new position. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the Member for Signal Hill -

Quidi Vidi have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to join

in thanking Dr. Fred Russell and Mrs. Russell for their service to the Province

over the last five years, and also to welcome the appointment of Dr. Max House

as Lieutenant-Governor for this Province.

It is particularly fitting that Dr. House is well known and

famous for his efforts in providing or finding ways, and creative ways, of

bringing medical services to remote areas, and particularly in a province such

as Newfoundland with so many communities. I think it is very fitting that he be

in this position, and I look forward to seeing him in this position and serving

the Province in the position of Lieutenant-Governor.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report to hon. members that the

outlook for the 1997 caplin fishery is very promising. This is due, in part, to

the fact that my federal colleague has made an early announcement on what the

total allowable catch will be, as was done by his predecessor, for the 1996

fishery. Before that, however, announcements on whether there would be a fishery

and what the TAC would be were not made in time for the industry to prepare

properly for the fishery.

Clearly, Mr. Speaker, that is changing and I commend Minister

Mifflin for it. Now, with the early notice there will be a fishery, processors

and harvesters can proceed with their plans to invest properly in their

businesses to prepare for the 1997 fishery, and will be able to assure our

markets that orders can be met.

I am also pleased, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government

will have caplin management measures to keep dumping, discarding and by-catch of

other species at a minimum. I fully agree with Minister Mifflin that while there

are improvements in environmental and biological factors for caplin,

conservation has to be priority number one.

Mr. Speaker, as provincial Minister of Fisheries, I am

considering measures that will reduce or eliminate dumping totally at the

processing level. My department will also continue its very effective inspection

program to ensure that we continue to serve the market with premium quality

products. For any species, quality has to be given top priority by everyone

handling the product in order to maximize the returns to the fishing industry

and to the economy.

I am confident that the combined measures taken by my

department and that of Fisheries and Oceans will result in a 1997 caplin fishery

that performs even better than 1996 when the export value was approximately $20

million.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is certainly my pleasure to comment on and congratulate

the minister on having an early management plan. I must say, he is performing

his duties on a faster

schedule than his predecessor in getting an early

management plan so people can plan ahead. I think it is important in the

industry that people know in advance so that their plans and their markets can

be determined, and especially it has an effect overall on the pricing structure

and ultimately on the revenues that our Province will accrue.

I think it is important, with conservation, to ensure that a

species such as the caplin that is basic and at the lower level in the food

chain, for other species - in particular cod - that we approach it with a mind

to conservation because, for a period of time, caplin have not been as large in

size. It has had some effect over the years, and there have been a lot of people

out there with certain scepticism, too.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: With leave, just to finish, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, there has been certain

scepticism whether it is in the best interest but I am sure, with caution and

reducing dumping and discarding, and doing it with conservation in mind - we

cannot afford to make mistakes of the past when we disregarded conservation to

balance the social aspects of the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador will

once again provide funding of $25,000 for a Provincial High School Drama

Festival during May, 1997. These funds are used to assist with accommodations

and meals for students and teachers, and other expenses incurred in operating

the Festival. The drama clubs in participating schools raise funds to cover

other costs such as student transportation to the location of the Festival.

Mr. Speaker, the Provincial High School Drama Festival is a

major annual activity of the Department of Education and secondary schools

throughout the Province. During the school year, schools participate in a

Regional Festival and a school from each region is selected to participate in

the Provincial Festival. Every year there are in excess of 100 schools

participating in these Regional Festivals. The Provincial and Regional Festivals

involve large numbers of senior high students who excel in acting as well as

public speaking.

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to announce that the 23rd

Provincial High School Drama Festival will be hosted at Discovery Collegiate, in

Bonavista, on May 8, 9 and 10, 1997. The Department of Education will be

organizing the Festival in partnership with the Clarenville/Bonavista School

District and Discovery Collegiate itself.

During the Winter/Spring of 1997, there will be ten Regional

Festivals, one within each of the ten new school districts. One school from each

school district, or region, plus the host school, Discovery Collegiate, will be

invited to participate in the Provincial High School Drama Festival in May. The

host school will be writing a play to be performed on opening night that will

reflect the historic landfall of John Cabot at Bonavista in 1497.

Mr. Speaker, Drama and theatre arts is an important component

of the schools' curriculum and the cultural heritage of our Province. As well,

1997 has been declared the Year of the Arts. The 23rd Provincial High School

Drama Festival will be a special event as part of the Cabot 500 Celebrations.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is a good news story for education, and after this

particular week, we need in education, good news stories. We need this

government, Mr. Speaker, to continue with its obligation and to ensure that its

commitment of the past to the students of this Province is kept. So I endorse

this announcement. This is good news. Drama is important, Mr. Speaker, music is

important, athletics is important, visual arts is important, travel for students

is important, student exchange programs, Mr. Speaker, an improved and more

varied curriculum is important, and improved facilities for the students of our

Province. All of these things are essential, Mr. Speaker, and that is why we, on

this side of the House, along with thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders,

are demanding of this government that they own up to their commitment to insure

that there is funding for the students of this Province, funding which they

deserve.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

I ask the minister, what are the increased costs to

Newfoundland and Labrador respecting the harmonized sales tax if only three

provinces are on stream?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, there are no increased costs.

There is a savings of approximately $3 million in administration for this

Province alone.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Is the minister aware that extra distribution, warehousing,

logistic costs incurred by suppliers and particularly to independent, small

retail chains, are going to be passed on to consumers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: No, Mr. Speaker, quite the opposite.

There was some controversy among certain retailers at the

beginning who made an issue as to the cost of having to print separate

catalogues, for example, for the harmonized region and not being able to show a

tax-inclusive price, and that prices here would be different from elsewhere.

On closer examination, it in fact turns out that most

national retailers have as much as nine different zones where they print nine

different catalogues, so it is very easy to make that adjustment. But to provide

for any degree of uncertainty that remains, the Federal Government has agreed

with the provinces to allow for a system of tax-inclusive pricing that also

allows manufacturers to show the price pre-tax, before the 15 per cent is added

on. All the analysis that we show, indicate that there will be substantial

savings as a result of this and as a result of full GSP input tax credits. We

expect prices to be substantially lower and not increase as a result of any

marginal cost or change in computers and things of that sort that businesses

have to do the change from 19.84 per cent tax to a 15 per cent tax.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Has the minister assessed the cost that retail operators are

going to incur now when they re-ticket merchandise and when they re-program

their computer systems? Has he considered those costs?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have considered those

costs and they were raised with one business group who came to see me. I am not

in a position to go out and ask every particular business what it would be, but

I asked, for instance, Peter O'Brien, the Canadian small business representative

in the Maritime region in particular. He said that the cost was incidental and

that the benefits far outweighed it.

I have asked individual retailers, and most of them assure me

that in all their operations, even the larger operations, it is insignificant

compared to the benefits received. Having met with one business group that

raised the issue, I told them to report back to me if they thought they were

substantial or significant, and I have not heard back from them. I assume on

that basis, Mr. Speaker, that they are entirely incidental.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On April 1, the price of a fur coat will decrease, but the

price of children's boots will increase by 8 per cent. Does the minister believe

that this is fair and realistic for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, some things will rise in price,

but people buy more than one or two items. Each family unit - and I have said

this before - from as little income as $10,000 per year will benefit from

harmonization. If you focus on one item that may have an increased tax, there

are at least ten to 100 items that I can list by way of example where there are

tax reductions. So it is a mug's game. The Treasury of this Province is losing

$105 million off its tax base. That is going to consumers. There may be some

items that increase, but by far and away the very substantial amounts of tax

decrease will off-weigh them.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Federal

Government has discovered that tax-included pricing is too costly to implement

for postage stamps but it is okay for everything in Atlantic Canada. Now, can

the minister explain why the Federal Government are applying two standards, one

for themselves and one for the rest of us?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, if anybody could delve the

mysteries at Canada Post I am sure they would do a - better than be Minister of

Finance. I have no idea what the Federal Government's position is. I can explain

the Province's. I am sure if there are any concerns at a federal level people

will raise it in that Chamber, but we see no problems.

It is a much simpler system. All retailers now have to do is,

there will be one tax at 15 per cent, remitted once a month to one particular

tax collector, and that happens to be Revenue Canada in this instance. Right now

they have to do two tax calculations, one at 7 per cent, one at 12.84 per cent

on top of that. They have to remit them at two or three different times,

depending on whether or not they want to do their GST monthly, quarterly,

annually. They get GST inputs on some things, they don't get them on others. RST

is on some goods, it isn't on - I'm sorry. The GST is on virtually everything,

RST doesn't apply. It is a nightmare to try to run a business and comply with

the tax laws we have in the Province and federally presently. This is a much

simpler system and I have every confidence that the support of the business

community is there, and that consumers will be the ones who ultimately benefit.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So the minister is telling us now that his new taxes on

insurance, on the private sale of vehicles, and those other - liquor tax, are

going to be collected by the Federal Government? if we are eliminating

duplication. They are still going to be collected by the Provincial Government.

We still have some duplication in the system, I say to the minister. But

children's clothing, school supplies, gas, electricity: Minister, do you believe

that these are important items for people in Newfoundland and Labrador? Why are

you increasing the cost of these necessities?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, what is too high in this Province

and in many others in this country is the level of taxation. We have a burden

that is close to 20 per cent on retail goods. We are prepared, as a province, to

reduce that by $105 million. I can see no rationale where the people of this

Province will arrive at the conclusion that it is better to have a 20 per cent

tax rate than a 15 per cent tax rate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the saying goes, we are taxed to death. Did you tell the

people of this Province, Minister, that they now even have to pay more to die?

There is a tax on death. Will you do the hon. thing and let this legislation

die?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, I am concerned with how people

live, and I am concerned that in this Province the burden of living is

exaggerated by the fact that we have a very high tax rate on income that you

earn. We have the highest tax rate in the country. On your residual income,

after you pay a tax, you have to pay more tax on goods that that you purchase.

We tax and we tax again. We have to simplify the tax system, we have to reduce

the tax burden.

Outside the hon. member, no person has come to me and said

they are concerned that taxes will increase. I mean, it is very simple that

across the board the tax burden is being lessened. I say to the hon. member that

what I am concerned about is how people live. I am convinced that the GST and

PST harmonization under a new HST system will benefit and the benefits will be

magnified in this Province beyond what it is in the other two provinces that are

part of this union.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, the minister and the Premier

tried to sell this harmonization on the basis that it will put $100 million more

back in the pockets of consumers in the Province. Now the Retail Council of

Canada said that by adopting the inclusive tax-in pricing in only three

provinces it will exceed, by many times, the savings of harmonization. Just ten

members of that council submitted in confidence, material to the retail council

showing their costs -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: - will increase by $28 million. I ask the

minister, has this government done its homework and will it provide figures of

its analysis of the impact of tax inclusive pricing?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member may know, some

groups and some individuals grossly exaggerate these costs in order to try to

get things changed. There is a group in this country and there are some national

retailers, two in fact and I won't name them, who have come forward and said

this will be terrible, that this will increase the costs. Every time you ask

them to pin it down you get a different answer. The truth is, whether the figure

is $28 million, $100 million, the minister of Nova Scotia told me that the

retailers in his Province went in and said it will cost $200 million. He went

back and challenged - the figure just simply is not there. The cost to business

in making the change from 19.84 per cent to 15 per cent is so infinitesimal in

terms of the value that businesses will receive out of this, that is

inconsequential. I challenge the hon. member to go out there and deliver to this

House by tomorrow, the name of twelve retailers of this Province who want a 20

per cent system instead of a 15 per cent system. I would like to see the list

because they don't come to my office, I have not seen one, nor do I expect to

see them. I will say further to the hon. member, if the majority of retailers of

this Province want a 20 per cent tax system they can have it but he won't see

it.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: I say to the minister, when the price of a

fur coat goes down and the price of children's clothing, shoes and materials

goes up, we have a problem.

Now since many suppliers are located in provinces that have

not harmonized their tax they will not benefit from the input tax credits in

respect of the provincial taxes. So I ask the minister, has he assessed the

impact that this will have on the price of goods?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Yes, precisely, Mr. Speaker. There are two

benefits to consumers, one is there are input tax credits that business receives

as a result of buying goods that are subject to similar taxes along the line

from production, whether it is wood harvested and manufactured into furniture,

through the manufacturing, through the warehousing and through the distribution

challenges to find a retailer, all those systems are direct tax input credits.

What the person does when he, she or it charges tax, they deduct from the end

tax all the input tax credits that they themselves have accumulated. The second

benefit is indirect tax credits. In your general things, like your purchase of

motor vehicles that don't go directly into the cost of goods, your legal fees,

accounting fees and things that go into most businesses, those take a little

longer to work though the system but in every analysis that we have done, there

will be substantial savings directly in the cost of tax. We expect that within a

year the full directing input and indirect tax credits should work their way

through the system resulting in an ultimate reduction of the cost of the

individual item before the tax is added. So in all the scenarios that we have

looked at, there should be a substantial benefit to consumers, both in reducing

the price of goods and reducing them immediately the tax burden.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I asked questions

to him regarding suppliers located in other provinces that are not in the

harmonized tax zone therefore they are not going to benefit from input tax

credits. Have you assessed the impact that this is going to transfer into the

price of a good that is sold in this Province that is in this harmonized area? I

didn't ask him a definition of input tax credits. I wonder if the minister can

answer that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. What happens for

example if a Newfoundland business or business in Labrador were to order goods

from somewhere in Ontario, a business in Ontario, when those goods leave Ontario

there is no tax on them because they are exported from that Province. They are

subject to the GST, 7 per cent but they are not subject to the Ontario sales

tax, which I think is somewhere in the vicinity of 10 per cent because they are

destined outside that province. So when a Newfoundland business receives those

goods it then takes a credit on the 7 per cent. So I don't understand the hon.

member's question because it is a benefit in that we now receive goods without

any provincial sales tax from other provinces being applied to it because there

are extra provincial sales in those jurisdictions.

Secondly, Mr. Speaker, when goods are sold outside the zone

our manufacturers have the benefit of the deductions of the GST tax credits as

well, so I really do not see any substantial, or I do not sense anything to his

question in terms of how there is a detriment to the business in our Province.

Perhaps I misunderstand because the hon. member knows provincial tax only

applied within the Province. That would have no impact on the cost of goods to

our producers and distributers as I see it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I say I did not see anything

substantive to the answer, not the question. The Quebec Department of Finance

studied tax-in pricing three years ago and again recently, and on both occasions

they concluded it is not a viable option, I say to the minister. Is the minister

aware that retailers who have strived for years to take cost out of operations

and make it competitive will now see this work destroyed by tax inclusive

pricing?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the greater argument in favour of

tax inclusive pricing is to avoid sticker shock. I am sure any member of this

House has gone in somewhere, bought something at $10.00, or take a price, and

suddenly when they went to the check-out they had to pay $12.00 for it. You can

imagine people who come here from the States or Europe who have a different

system, where it is all included, and they see the price of goods go up by 20

per cent. I have heard from merchants and customers, that there is still an

aspect of shock when you actually have to pay the tax on it.

The value of tax inclusive pricing is when you look at a good

and see it for sale that is the price. You know what it is. It includes all the

taxes and you do not have to do any calculations, either 20 per cent or 19.84,

you see what the price is. It encourages the sales, people know what it is, and

they have the assurance that this is all you pay. I do not see a downside to

that, Mr. Speaker. In fact I believe there is a very positive upside,

particularly for tourists who come to this Province, and particularly from

outside the country.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: I am not talking about the concept of where

the tax is included. I am talking about the total cost of the goods that the

consumer pays. I say to the minister, too, that the Retail Council of Canada

said they are concerned that some of the communications from government have

left the impression out in the public, a mistaken impression of the impact of

tax-in pricing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary and I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the minister if this government will

come clean with the people and tell the full and true story about tax inclusive

pricing?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. DICKS: Mr. Speaker, the member is focusing on

business reactions on this. Let me just say that the important thing in the

Province is how it effects the majority of people in this Province who are not

in business. We have a substantial positive reaction. People are in favour of

this. If you want to look at the business community, and I believe that is

important as well, every Chamber of Commerce that came to the hearings I had

last year, with the exception of a couple of major retailers whom I challenged

and who did not respond to the challenge, have been universally in favour of

this.

They have advocated for years, ever since the GST was

introduced in 1990, that tax inclusive pricing is seen by the majority of

businesses as a very positive aspect of this. You will have some national

retailers who say it is going to add to the cost of putting out additional

flyers, but frankly I do not accept it, and to the extent that they are prepared

to say they do not want it, I am prepared to say to any national group that does

not want to be part of the system that you can still retain a 20 per cent tax

system in this Province for your goods. You will not get GST and put credits.

Now, bring in whichever national group you want and if they

want it I will particularly make an exception for them, but I challenge the hon.

member, bring me a Simpsons, bring me a Canadian Tire, bring me whomever else

that wants a 20 per cent tax rate with no (inaudible) tax credits and they can

have it. The public will have the option of going to the other businesses in

this Province that charge a 15 per cent tax rate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a

supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, he is failing to realize that

more than businesses buy school supplies, gas, children's clothing, and

electricity. Tax included pricing is costly when only three provinces buy into

the deal I say to the minister. If all provinces bought in it would not be

detrimental. Now, will the minister admit that the only reason we are stuck with

this HST agreement is because the Prime Minister gave orders to his only three

Liberal governments in Canada to pretend they scraped the GST, including the

Premier who is now trying to save face on that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, this must be the first Leader

of the Opposition in history who is standing valiantly fighting to retain a 20

per cent tax rate because the government is threatening to lower the tax to 15

per cent. Since 1949 every single government in office has either borrowed more

or taxed more when confronted with the challenge for growth, and we have a

Minister of Finance who is going to produce a 5 per cent drop in the retail

sales tax, leave $105 million in the economy of the Province to help the average

citizen, and the Leader of the Opposition is crying `foul'. I would say that if

he does not get his economic facts better straightened away, his goose will be

cooked with the public next time around.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My

questions are to the Minister of Social Services.

Yesterday, in a ministerial statement, the minister indicated

that there were 110 people in the Province who received $3,000 or more in home

care support. She also indicated that each of these persons was individually

assessed and the monthly support payment was only reduced with the approval of

the client or the family, or their representative. In fact, that minister stated

that thirty-five persons, or 31.8 per cent of all clients, willingly agreed to

have their funding needs reduced.

That statement, Madam Minister, is absolutely inconsistent

with the information that has been coming to my office in the last twenty-four

hours, and contrary to comments in the public media this morning.

Madam Minister, whose comments reflect the reality: those of

the clients, or yours in the House yesterday?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to my hon. colleague, I stand firmly behind my

ministerial statement yesterday. I used the information based on fact, which is

a basis of truth, and that is what I based it on.

I can further say that any person who received twenty-four

hour care, or less than $500, was not affected by a 10 per cent reduction. I

fear the member across the House is confused about this particular policy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I fear he is confused.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, my colleague is confused.

Any person who is receiving over $3,000 per month was not affected by this

reduction without their consent. That is the fact, the truth, of the matter.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a

supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Madam Minister, in addition to the case that was mentioned in

the local CBC program this morning, what do you say to a mother, to whom I

talked yesterday afternoon, who is caring for a forty-one-year-old severely

disabled daughter. In her words, she has been pushed, forced, persuaded,

coerced, and intimidated to agree to a reduction in her support from 240 hours

week to 120 hours per week -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. H. HODDER: - and now she finds herself having to give

her daughter twenty-four hour care seven days a week, and it is expected that

she will be there all of the time.

What do you say to that? She does not agree with your

comments, and neither do I, and I am not confused about it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I refer to some of my previous comments yesterday. I have a

lot more faith in my front-line workers than to think they would persuade and

coerce, and all the other things that you mentioned. I take great offence to

that, Mr. Speaker.

I also say that when cases are put forward by the media, as

my colleague knows, I cannot speak directly to a case. But I would say to my

colleague to get all the information, get all the facts, before you state your

case, because I fear you are missing a lot of information.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a

supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, we saw your commitment to

front-line workers yesterday here in this House. There were about fifty of them

in the gallery, and you disowned them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. H. HODDER: They are the real front-line workers. They

are the people who are on the front lines every day.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary.

MR. H. HODDER: Madam Minister, it was your department

that gave explicit instructions to your personnel to be aggressive in finding

ways to reduce home care support for those who received $3,000 or more.

Directions from the minister's office -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Directions from the minister's office have a tremendous

impact on the methodologies used. Surely, Madam Minister, you are not surprised

at that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to

his question.

MR. H. HODDER: Than you, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister review each of the thirty-five cases where

she says consensual agreement has been reached?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have every confidence in my front-line staff who have

individually assessed all of those cases, Mr. Speaker. No, I will not go back

and redo their work, because I have confidence in their decisions and I will

stand by their decisions.

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Opposition

House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday in the

House the minister noted the great increases in the home care funding. Madam

Minister, I noted yesterday that you did not indicate how much money was

transferred from other government departments over the past ten years since the

program began, since 1986. Have you completed an analysis of where the funding

has come from, and how much indeed we are saving, when we know that some clients

were subsidized to $20,000 a month in hospital and are now being serviced at

$5,000 or $6,000 a month in home care? Have you completed a ten-year analysis of

where the money comes from and how much real new money indeed is being spent by

the government in its total Budget?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think

yesterday in my statement I pointed out that there is over $39 million being

spent on the home support program from $250,000 ten years ago. I think that

states clearly a significant amount of money. I also stand by the fact that we

have the richest home support program in this country. I know of people who have

left this Province and flown to B.C. to get home support services, and they

returned because they weren't paying the same amount of money in the richest

province in the country that we are paying here in this Province of ours. So I

stand firm behind the program we support, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair had recognized the hon. the Member

for St. John's South.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for

the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. Her department has just sent

out 400,000 packages inviting people to visit the Cabot 500 celebrations in our

Province next year. But when I called St. John's area hotels to check the

vacancies for one of the major events next summer - I picked the Festival 500,

which is still seven months away -, I was told that some of the hotels have very

limited accommodations available. Two of them were completely booked -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. OSBORNE: Two of the other hotels are completely

booked solid

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. members again that we are in question

period. Let's get on with the questions.

MR. OSBORNE: The other two remaining hotels, I say to the

minister, have only the most expensive rooms remaining, starting at $165 a night

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OSBORNE: - and (inaudible) going well beyond $200 per

night single, plus taxes. I ask the minister, what specifically is she going to

do about the mounting crisis in accommodations next summer during the Cabot 500

celebrations?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I'm very honoured to stand here

this afternoon to answer this question because this is a good opportunity to be

able to address this matter. Because we are very worried about the fact that, as

you know, we had an occasion several years ago in this City when the Pope

visited, and we did this very thing that we are doing here today. We are saying:

Our accommodations are full - please don't come. We do not want to do this with

our Cabot 500 celebration.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: We have been working very, very hard with the

hospitality industry, with all of the hotels, the bed and breakfasts, with the

university, with the residents, we have been outlining a program that as soon as

we see that our hotels, motels, B & Bs and other structures are full, we will be

prepared to put in place a home-stay program.

We have also been very, very cautious to make sure that in

this Province, the travel agencies and everyone are very, very aware that we

have accommodations left throughout this Province, all over this Province and in

Labrador. We have a back-up program which we have already instituted on the

Bonavista Peninsula and which we are prepared to do all over this Province when

it becomes necessary, and we would very much appreciate the support of all of

our colleagues in ensuring the message does not get out, that there are not

accommodations in this Province, when we have lots of accommodations in this

Province and are very prepared -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS KELLY: - to go with a back-up program when we become

full.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South, a

supplementary.

MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Twillingate, I say to the minister, for the Matthew

visit -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OSBORNE: Twillingate has no room left at their hotel

for Corner Brook for the celebration of Summer next year. There is absolutely no

room at the inn. None of the hotels have rooms available, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OSBORNE: Does the minister realize that even though

this event is a full eight months away, there is no room available in Corner

Brook. What is she going to do to accommodate the extra tourism coming to Corner

Brook next Summer? What is she going to tell the people who call her office

asking about the celebration of Summer in Corner Brook next year? Where is she

going to accommodate the extra tourists?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, as I have just outlined to my

colleague, we will be and are presently working with areas on home-stay

programs. We still have accommodations in these areas, but you must recognize

that it is not possible to build 500 rooms or 1,000 rooms in response for

accommodations for one night. That is why, all over the Province, we are working

to insure with Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, that we have home-stay

programs, cruise ships, whatever is possible to make sure that every type of

accommodation can be used, but we are not going to scaremonger to ensure that

tourists do not come to this Province.

This, in a way, is exactly the same problem that we have with

Marine Atlantic when people say: there might be a strike. As soon as we say

there might be a strike, people stay away in droves. We ought to be very, very

cautious about making these statements. We have all the tourist associations in

this Province, we have our regional staff in our offices out all over this

Province working -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to draw her question to a conclusion.

MS KELLY: - hand in hand with hospitality groups to

insure that we have accommodations for next year.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has elapsed.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the financial

statements of the Newfoundland and Labrador Legal Aid Commission.

MR. SPEAKER: In accordance with

section 173, subsection 3

Part III of the Election Act, 1991, I hereby table the Annual Report of the

Chief Electoral Officer and the Election Finances for the period January 1, 1995

to December 31, 1995.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services

and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to

introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Automobile Dealers Act, The

Insurance Adjustors, Agents And Brokers Act, The Insurance Companies Act, The

Real Estate Trading Act And The Trust and Loan Corporations Licensing Act",

known as Bill 51.

Thank you.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present a petition on behalf of

362 residents of Newfoundland and Labrador. The petition is addressed to the

House of Assembly, and the prayer reads:

We, the undersigned, oppose the establishment of private

fishing zones on the rivers of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is our inherent

right, as Newfoundlanders, to use these waters in a respectful manner.

Mr. Speaker, this petition was circulated by a resident of

Clarenville, a good friend of mine, Mr. Monroe Greening. Mr. Greening is an avid

hunter, a sports fisherman, and he has been a trapper for over forty years. The

concerns of the petitioners come from meetings that were held in Clarenville and

in Glovertown over the past Winter, and these meetings were called to look into

the possibility of creating community management groups to oversee the

recreational activities on the Terra Nova River and the tributaries flowing into

the Terra Nova.

The petitioners are concerned, Mr. Speaker, that as these

management groups attempt to become self-supporting and self-sufficient, that it

could lead to things like exorbitant user fees, and this would preclude some

residents of the Province from being able to fish these rivers.

There were also statements made at some of the meetings, and

suggestions, that maybe the management committees would set aside tracts to the

rivers and the other waterways for the exclusive use of outfitters, and that was

a concern.

There was a third concern, and that was that if left to

individual management groups, the rules and guidelines would not be consistent

for all rivers across Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I brought these concerns to the attention of the

Minister of Government Services and Lands back in June, and I have written

assurance from the minister that there are no plans to privatize the Province's

waterways or to restrict access to recreational fishing areas.

It has been noted, and it is public knowledge, that

government would like to generate more public comment and more public input into

the management of our natural resources; however, I have the assurance that

government does not intend to relinquish control of our rivers, our lakes, and

our streams. It is government's intention to manage and to preserve and enhance

these resources and make them accessible to all people of the Province.

Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and I will continue to

work with government to protect the interest of my constituents when it comes to

the freedom that they enjoy to carry out recreational activities in the

Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to rise

and speak in support of the petition presented by the Member for Trinity North.

It is an issue that I think the petitioners ought to be commended for bringing

forward, because it is something that goes pretty deep in terms of a public

philosophy of how we in this Province manage our natural resources.

It is a very important question. Because I think there is

going to be pressure, and continuing pressure, on the government generally, on

the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, to give over certain aspects of

our natural heritage to private interests. It will come in various forms. It

will come in terms of management groups, it will come in terms of outfitters

needing to have access to licences and needing to have access to lands. It will

come in various forms. We in this Province have a very different tradition than

exists in Scotland, in New Brunswick even, and in other places where the

resources of the rivers in particular, not just ponds but rivers in particular,

are owned by private interests. They are controlled by them and they determine

who gets to fish on these rivers and how much they shall pay for the privilege

of doing so.

There are a number of questions that arise when this issue is

discussed. The choice of having privately owned fisheries or privately owned

rivers can be said to be valuable in some areas, where they say: This will

provide an opportunity for someone to control and maximize the use of that

resource. That is one argument that is being made in favour of this, and

government might see a way of unloading some of its responsibility to properly

manage this type of resource. I think it would be a terrible mistake.

The other side of that, when the public takes responsibility

for it and ensures public access to it, there is an increasing responsibility on

government to ensure, through public education, through strict enforcement, to

cooperation in management and involving communities in management, to ensure

that as a public resource the public is aware of its responsibility to conserve,

and to ensure that this public access resource is managed for the benefit of all

members of the public.

There is something to be said for our Province and for our

own heritage that these rivers are still available to the public, just as, for

the sake of hospitality - and I think that next summer, for example, there are

going to be people coming here. There may be problems in accommodation. But I

think what is going to happen is the Newfoundlander's reputation for hospitality

will be seen holus-bolus next summer when we can assure people who come to visit

our Province that the Newfoundlander's reputation for hospitality is well

deserved.

In terms of public access to our heritage of our rivers, that

is something that again the public has to take responsibility for and to ensure

that these rivers are protected from poaching, that the management of those

rivers, people participate in that. But at the end of the day it is the

government's responsibility to ensure that these natural resources of the rivers

are protected by the public and are not up for sale in any form, either in terms

of management or in terms of passing over the right to assign fishing rights to

either outfitters, private developers, or even community management groups. It

isn't something that government should ever see as becoming something that

should be bartered back and forth between private interests. It is part of the

natural heritage of Newfoundland and Labrador and it is something that we all

should continue to share in and have public and equal access to.

I support the petitioners and I congratulate them on bringing

it forward. I hope the member's comments concerning government's considerations

and intent are correct. If it isn't, the government can be assured that this

will be something that there will be a major fight on if it determines that this

type of heritage ought to be privatized or go away from public responsibility.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment briefly on

this petition from the government's point of view. Several departments have been

involved in this; Forest Resources and Agrifoods, Development and Rural Renewal,

Government Services and Lands and my department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation. I am very interested in some of the points that are being brought

forward today as a result of this petition and I would like to state

emphatically that this government has no plans to privatize rivers.

I think that probably some worries these petitioners have is

that they are jumping to conclusions after reading some consultants reports and

saying that this is what they could see as the possibilities. I think if they

were involved in and listening to the discussion around the table that they

would realize that community management boards are in fact, many of them are

being put in place with people around the table who are very concerned that this

would never happen.

The community management board that I am the most familiar

with is out in my own district and I know that this is one of the reasons this

community management board group initially got together. I think that if many of

the petitioners became involved - part of the difficulty out in the Terra Nova

area is because many people are not being involved and the public need to get

more involved to understand this issue. We have actually met with the Terra Nova

group and have encouraged them to have more public meetings. They have had some

but there has not been a high degree of public participation and I think if

there was the population of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador would

realize that while some people are saying there is no consistency, it is because

our rivers are not all consistent. That every river system in the Province is

different and needs a different management plan.

While there can be consistency in the rules and regulations

that govern the overall governance we need to have individual plans to manage

our rivers possibly and it must be done for the maximum benefit of all from a

recreational point of view, a social point of view and an economic point of

view. I think where people are getting a little worried is in the zonal system,

in that the zonal system is being put in place for the conservation efforts on a

river so that we can ensure that you would have an ability to have only catch

and release in some zones of the river or you could catch only trophy fish in

other parts of the river or you could only keep one salmon or two in other parts

of the river and I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from.

So we will continue to work with the community management

boards that are in place and hope that more will be put in place throughout the

Province and we will work very closely with them as a government. Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand today,

Mr. Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of residents of the Province of

Newfoundland.

To hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador in parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of

the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador ask for the House of Assembly to

accept the following petition;

We the undersigned residents of the Province of Newfoundland

and Labrador do hereby petition the House of Assembly to direct the Department

of Education to legislate a paid adult bus monitor program for all school buses

in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We find that students are

presently being unsupervised and are at risk in their safety going to and from

schools on school buses. The safety of our children is being compromised. We ask

the hon. minister and his government to show compassion, leadership and

understanding to ensure the safe transportation of our children.

Mr. Speaker, this is one of several that have been presented

and I can assure, Mr. Speaker, that there will be many more petitions on this

theme of ensuring that the young people of our Province are protected, secured

and safe while riding on school buses in our Province.

Mr. Speaker, I have met with school administrators and

parents on several occasions who have raised significant concerns about the

safety and wellbeing of their children while travelling unsupervised aboard

school buses here in our Province. The problem has been raised by parents

throughout the Province, and specifically a number of concerns have been noted.

They include the adequate supervision of students on the buses, as well as

boarding and leaving buses, driver selection and training, proper school bus

maintenance and vehicle communication, safety education programs for students,

parents, teachers, and drivers, bus safety awareness programs for the public,

and scheduled bus routes. These areas of school bus safety, Mr. Speaker, have to

be adequately and comprehensively addressed in the highest quality if we are to

ensure the safe transporting of our students to and from school each day.

A particular group sponsored by Holy Family School in

Paradise have not only done their own survey, but they have presented to the

minister a series of recommendations with respect to these different aspects of

busing and school transportation in our Province. Mr. Speaker, it is an issue

that will not go away, I say to the minister. There are tens of thousands of

students and adults alike who are genuinely concerned about the well-being of

their students and they now seek to have the minister seriously look into the

possibility of a paid bus monitor program.

I will save the minister the time, Mr. Speaker, because I am

sure he will raise it again, with respect to the fact of a comment that was made

by myself as a critic the day after we had a most unfortunate tragedy in the

Province. So I say to the minister, I will save him the time, he does not have

to address it. I will say, and admit, quite openly, that on the day after this

tragedy in the Province, yes, I indicated that an option we had is a volunteer

service. However, I have met with sufficient numbers of parents, sufficient

numbers of school administrators, and I am convinced that a volunteer program is

not what we need. A volunteer program is better than nothing, but what we need

ultimately and what secures children's interests to the utmost is a paid adult

bus monitor program.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say that to the minister to save him

the time so that he does not have to repeat himself once again.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Before my colleague opposite, the hon. the

Minister of Education gets up and repeats the comments that he made a few days

ago, and gives all the excuses of why he cannot listen to the requests and act

positively on the concerns of the parents, I would like to say to the minister

that this matter is not going to go away. Yesterday, my colleague, the Leader of

the Opposition presented a petition with 12,000 names on it. These petitions are

continuing to come from all parts of the Province. Holy Family School and the

committee of parents at Holy Family School distributed the petition to all of

the schools in the Province and the parents are reacting to the petition as I

have never seen parents react to a petition before.

Parents are concerned that we allow in this Province

seventy-two children to crowd onto a bus. I just have to say to the minister, on

that issue alone, I would like for the minister to go to a junior high school,

or a senior high school, and see what a bus looks like when it has seventy-two

passengers on it, and when you are saying to a group of junior or senior high

school students that you are going to sit three to a seat. That is what it

means. You have to have three people to a seat to get seventy-two teenagers on

one bus. You can imagine the potential there is in that kind of a situation for

a great deal of overcrowding, and also, of course, it means that sometimes

students will actually stand on the bus although school buses were never

designed for students to be standing while the bus is moving.

Mr. Speaker, parents are raising questions about the proper

and adequate supervision of students on the buses. They are concerned about

boarding and leaving the buses, and the issues of safety. They are concerned

about driver selection and driver training, and we have to say in the House that

many of those drivers who drive those buses are not overpaid. Very often they

drive the buses for minimum wages or just a little better than minimum wages,

therefore they certainly have a great deal of responsibility for a very low rate

of remuneration. In terms of their training, we have to develop a protocol in

the Department of Education that assures that there is a certificate given in

school-bus driving and school-bus training.

Mr. Speaker, I just have to note that you cannot take a piece

of heavy equipment in this Province without having adequate training however, it

is possible for you to take a school bus and drive it in this Province and have

I think it is a Class 2 license, so I would say to the minister that the driver

license is one thing, the training that goes beyond the license, because the

license is not particular to school-bus driving, we have to make sure that all

school boards in this Province have an adequate program of instruction and

training for school bus drivers.

We want to talk about proper school bus maintenance and when

you look at the accident rate in this Province, we have to be concerned about

school bus maintenance. We also have concerns with the parents about vehicle

communication. Now, I have had some occasion when I have had to rent buses to

take students across this Province and I have tended to rent, when I was school

principal, buses from CN Road Cruiser, for one reason. When they were on the

road, they had communication systems that could keep in touch with the school

and the parents at any one time along the way. Mr. Speaker, not everybody in

this Province has access to buses of the type that was used by CN, but we do say

that all school buses should be equipped with a radio system, with a phone

system so we can assure that, if something happens, there can be adequate

response and it can be made very, very quickly and very timely.

We must have better programs of safety for children, for

parents, for teachers, and we have to make sure that every child who attends

school -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. H. HODDER: - is appropriately trained and educated in

the issues of school-bus safety.

Mr. Speaker, just for a moment if I could?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in closing, we have to be

aware that safety begins with our parents, safety begins at home and we just

expect the school system to be supportive of parents and ask the minister to

give all due consideration to the prayers of the petitions that have been raised

in this House and to the ones which I know are forthcoming.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just briefly, a couple of comments in response to the

petition because we have heard this issue repeated in the House in the last

couple of weeks.

Just for the information of hon. members opposite, I am sure

they have done the calculations themselves. For adult, paid monitors, the

information is that we have basically 1,000 school buses operating on a daily

basis in the twenty-seven school boards currently in the Province, there will be

ten school boards after Christmas, Mr. Speaker.

The school buses are basically operational for about four

hours a day, a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the

afternoon. If we assume, Mr. Speaker, that you would pay a wage of six dollars

an hour, which is not a great wage but it is above the minimum wage, and

understanding that schools are open for at least 180 days of the year, it is

actually 185 of a 190-day school year, that equates to almost $4.5 million, Mr.

Speaker. If we paid just six dollars an hour, it would be four-and-one-half

million dollars.

Now, I believe when we make the decisions about what is in

the best interest of the students and the education system, that, in isolated

circumstances and individual cases where parents are convinced that the number

one priority for them is a paid, adult bus monitor, the bill that is before the

House, Mr. Speaker, gives them the right to collect the money and pay the

monitors themselves. But for the government to institute a program, universally

in the Province would cost $4.5 million, and then we would probably have the

complaint that we are not paying them enough because that is only averaging $6

an hour.

Mr. Speaker, we are getting that representation now very

strongly from members opposite who just earlier today in this House indicated

that they would rather see a 20 per cent sales tax, say, in the Province,

instead of 15 per cent. We are trying to give the people a break on the sales

tax so they can make their own choices about how to spend their money, and now

we have a group that wants us to use $4.5 million for adult paid monitors.

We might even spend $4.5 million or more to improve bus

safety; it might mean buying new buses and equipping them with safety devices

rather than paying for adult monitors, but the whole issue, as I have said, is

under study. We will be actually in touch with the people directly in the

not-too-distant future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day,

I would move that the House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion, that this House not adjourn at 5:00

p.m. All those in favour, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, `nay'.

AN HON. MEMBER: Nay.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion carried.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that this House resolve

itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain bills, in particular,

Order No. 2, Bill No. 23, to start with.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

CHAIR (Mr. Penney): Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, Order No. 2, Committee of the

Whole on a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act". (Bill No. 23)

CHAIR: Shall clause 1 carry?

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would just like to make a few comments again today

concerning the Nurses Act and, I guess, concerning our nurses in this Province.

Over the last several days, having had conversations with

some of them, and indeed, people in the Health Care Corporation, I believe that

besides introducing bills that look at the Nurses Act, I think we should say to

the Minister of Health that maybe it is time we hired some more nurses for our

health care system in this Province.

Our nurses are substantially overworked in our institutions,

and I guess we have reached a stage in our hospitals today where unfortunately,

and through no fault of their own, they have been forced into saying to people

who have elderly parents: If you want your parents fed at feeding time then you

had better be here, because if you are not here at feeding time, then your

parents, in all probability, will not get fed.

I am sure not only members opposite but certainly on this

side of the House have heard it time and time again.

I would just like to touch on a particular issue that

happened to a good friend of mine last Friday night at the Health Sciences

Centre, on the fifth floor. When his father's food was delivered on a tray, one

of the items being served happened to be pea soup. This man, of course, who is

not in very good condition, who happens to have a tumour on the brain, was not

capable of feeding himself. The son happened to be present and took the cover

off the soup that was being served. I don't know how many people have ever seen

food that is spoiled, but this particular stuff was actually `working' in the

container - I say to the Minister of Education, fermenting in the container, and

if this man had been able to feed himself, he probably would have eaten it. He

probably would have eaten this food and so would maybe some of the other people

who were on that particular floor in the hospital. That to me, Mr. Chairman, is

a disgrace, a disgrace to the health care system of this Province. When that has

to happen, when we have to be present to make sure that our parents are fed or

that the food that is being brought in to feed our parents is not fit for human

consumption, as happened last Friday night, then there is something wrong.

When a seventy-nine or eighty year old man goes into

emergency and the nursing staff say: `If you can stay all night and look after

your father, we will keep him in so he can have medical attention -great health

care! But we had no cuts to health care and somebody is doing one heck of a good

job on health care. Somebody, Mr. Chairman, and I mean this sincerely and I

really don't care who likes it or who doesn't like it, somebody in this province

should be ashamed of themselves for what is happening to some of the patients

that are going in and out of this hospital.

I could probably go on and on about health care and quote all

kinds of incidents. I can go back to my own family, Mr. Chairman, when my wife,

a couple of years ago, was a patient at the Health Sciences. Because she was not

dying, because she was not terminally ill but yet had a very serious illness,

she was not allowed to have a bed sheet of this `eggshell', because she was not

dying. Only if she had been dying, she would be allowed the right to some decent

comfort. Just imagine, in Newfoundland and Labrador in 1996, that is the way we

treat some of our people in health care, and nobody cares. Somebody should care.

Somebody should be checking and somebody should be watching, Mr. Chairman, what

is going on, because these are not stories that are made up. These are stories

that are the truth. These are stories that I can prove.

So to our nursing staff, we should be more supportive. We

should be hiring more of them. We should be putting more of them in place so

that some of the elderly in this Province, who are not capable of feeding

themselves, can be fed a decent meal in the institutions in this Province, so

that our old people get the right to live with some dignity. I think this is a

shame when these things happen in health care and sometimes, through no fault of

their own, they just don't have the time or the energy to do all the work that

is required of them.

AN HON. MEMBER: It took nine months to get an ice machine

in the ICU at the Health Sciences.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, if you can imagine, Mr. Chairman, my

colleague who also has connections with somebody who is in hospital, it took

nine months to get an ice-making machine repaired at an intensive care unit at

the Health Sciences Centre. There, again, Mr. Chairman, somebody somewhere

should be ashamed of himself, and the person who is responsible for that, if he

is not fired, he should have been.

So I say, instead of getting rid of our nurses, let us

increase our nurses so that our parents, unfortunately not in my case, but most

of our parents, if they do have to go to hospital and they do have medical

difficulties, they are able to be fed. The incident that I quoted, that happened

in the Health Sciences Centre on last Friday night probably would not happen,

because there would be somebody from a nursing staff there who would know

exactly what happened. It meant him running out to the nursing station and the

nurses scurrying around the floor to see that this particular piece of food was

removed from all the trays that were on the fifth floor.

The other day, I enquired and mentioned this to somebody in

senior management at the Health Care Corporation. The only answer I guess

somebody could give me was: `Well, we have a problem with the heating unit at

the Health Sciences Centre,' and because of that, then this type of food was

allowed to go in and be laid on a table to be fed to the people of this

Province.

That, Mr. Chairman, is a disgrace. Somebody in this

government should be looking into it to find out exactly why, what happened, how

it happened. It should never happen again. It was luck last Friday night that a

friend of mine whose dad is a very seriously ill patient, happened to be there.

I don't mind speaking on health care, and I don't really care

if I am here on Christmas Day talking about health care, because it is a very

serious issue. If we want to rush it through, then that is just too bad. But

these incidents happened. I think these incidents have a right to come before

this House, and the people who suffered because of them have a right to some

dignity. When that happens, somebody in this Province, somebody in this

government, either the Minister of Health or somebody at the Health Care

Corporation, should be fired. If they don't know, they should know what is going

on. Because our parents - unfortunately, not mine, because mine are both gone -

but other people's parents who live to be this age have a right, I say to the

Minister of Health, to some dignity and some decent care.

This, to me, is a very serious matter. There are lots of

times in this House we can laugh and joke and banter back and forth, and I

certainly don't mind doing that. But today is not a time for this. This is a

time to be serious. This is a time for us to be very concerned about what

happened to these particular people. On that note, I think, in support of nurses

in this Province, we should be increasing our nursing staff so that in our

hospitals, these nurses are there and they will be able to help, not my parents

anymore, but the parents of other people who are in there and who are suffering

from very serious illness. On that note, Mr. Chairman, I will sit down.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

CHAIR: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member if he would take his seat for a moment.

The Chair is seeking guidance from the House Leaders. Is it

the understanding -

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I think I know.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Is it not ten and ten? I think myself and the

Opposition House Leader have an agreement that we will go ten and ten, as is the

usual practice, although it is not in the Standing Orders in that matter.

CHAIR: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, we agree that for the

purpose of Committee of the Whole, there will be a ten and ten rotation among

members.

CHAIR: Very well.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: We will see now by the next few days

(inaudible).

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased today to stand and say a few words

on Bill 23 in Committee. This piece of legislation, of course, is very important

to the nurses in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. From personal

experience, I have had a lot of dealings with nurses in the health care system

in this Province over the past number of years, and let me tell you, they are a

very professional group of people. I have to say, the number of times that I

have been in the care of the nurses in this Province, they have been a very

professional group. I have had no bad experiences whatsoever with respect to the

nurses. They have always treated me well.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I was in pretty serious condition, I say to

the Minister of Education the couple of times I was in there, and treated well.

MR. GRIMES: They must be really good to pull you through.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, there is no doubt about that I say to

the minister. The Minister of Education says they must be really good nurses to

pull me through.

MR. GRIMES: And, we are glad you made it.

MR. J. BYRNE: When the minister introduced this bill he

talked about the bill itself, Bill 23, tightening up the act, and he talked

about the nurses and members in good standing. Of course, with any professional

association we have to have certain rules and regulations that they have to go

by, and this bill seems to address some of the concerns that nurses had. With

respect to this bill itself we have spoken to some of the nurses and have been

informed that the bill reflects their aspirations, the Association of Nurses,

and they are quite anxious to have this piece of legislation put through the

House, to help them run their association and to deal with all the nurses and

health care within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Of course, this piece of legislation also deals with lay

representatives to the council. This, of course, would allow people in the

Province who are not in the health care profession to have some say in the

health care profession in the Province and have some input into the delivery of

health care within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. That, I have to

say is a good move. There is no doubt about it, Mr. Chairman, and I compliment

the minister in including that in the bill.

Also, the nurses have advocated the annual licensing or

nurses and the proposed new criteria for association membership and the roles of

the association members. Anybody who is involved in the professional association

knows the roles of the different positions on the various councils, from the

president on down. I think one of the members here is past-president of the

nurses association, one of the ministers, I believe, Mr. Chairman, so I would

imagine that that minister was consulted quite a bit on this legislation.

We all know that nursing is a integral part of our health

care system, and always has been. Nurses provide a valuable service to the

people of the Province and to the health care system. The Province has produced

many fine nurses over the years, but the only sad point with respect to nurses -

well, I would not say the only sad point, but it is a negative, in that many of

our nurses who are being trained in this Province are comparable to anywhere in

the world, so I find that we are losing too many nurses who have been trained

within our Province and within our health care system.

We are losing many of them to the United States. As a matter

of fact, Mr. Chairman, I have a niece who graduated a few years ago and was

basically looking for a job within the Province, but they were courted from

various states and she ended up going to New Orleans to get a job. Some of her

friends who graduated with her followed along and went there also. We know that

nurses are leaving the Province and going to different provinces within Canada,

but many of them are heading to the United States, where there are jobs

available for them and they are compensated at a reasonable rate for their

services.

The problem also in this Province with the nurses over the

years, particularly, in the past few years are the cuts in health care. We know

that is having an impact, not only on patient care within the Province, and the

frequency which these people have to often times return to the hospital. People

are let out too early and the nurses themselves are being put at risk. As I said

before in this House, Mr. Chairman, I know that the nurses in this Province are

overworked and understaffed. There are nurses I know of who are put in

situations where they are putting their own health at risk, and they are finding

that often there are times when there is only one nurse there to actually assist

the patient.

I know of an individual, a nurse, who was trying to deal with

a patient in her bed. The patient was basically, I suppose, trying to get out of

bed, and ended up falling out of the bed and injuring the nurse because there

were not enough staff. The minister should be aware of that.

Also, Mr. Chairman, this legislation deals with nurses taking

their role as nurses very seriously in health care and in the delivery of health

care within the Province. If you talk to any of the nurses, they themselves will

tell you that they have serious concerns about what is going on with health care

in the Province today.

Mr. Chairman, it is very important that the Minister of

Health, and the health care system itself, start listening to the nurses and

start taking direction from these people. They are professionals. They know what

they are talking about. They are educated in the profession of health care and

in the treatment of the sick. It is not only, I suppose, the actual physical

treatment of patients, both patients in hospital and day-care patients who come

in for a day and go out type of thing, but also the mental well-being of those

patients while they are in hospital. The nurses have to be up, basically, all of

the time. When I say `up' I mean in good spirits, because if you have a patient

in hospital and they do not have a positive attitude towards themselves and

getting well again it could prolong how long a person is in hospital. In effect,

then, that is another drain on the budget of the Department of Health. So the

nurses play a key role with respect not only to the physical well-being, of

course, but also to the mental well-being of patients. In so doing, of course,

they are helping the Department of Health in keeping their budget down.

On the other side we have a situation where the nurses are,

as I said earlier, being overworked and understaffed, and it is hard for those

people to be maintaining their positive attitude all of the time, I would say to

them, although they are doing a fantastic job as far as I know at this point in

time. But the question has to be asked: How long can they keep it up? How long

can they keep up this positive attitude with respect to patients in the

hospitals?

I have visited many people in the hospital, constituents and

relatives, as we all have family and friends who end up in hospital, and we all

go in to visit them. Not long ago I went in to visit an individual and there was

one nurse on staff for something like fifteen or seventeen patients in the

evening. Now that is an impossible task. That is an impossible task for any

individual. I know that; they know that. They have come to me and spoken to me,

and I can only sympathize with them.

We bring up the points in this House all the time. The critic

for health, the Member for Conception Bay South, is bringing up concerns all the

time in this House with respect to health care in the Province, and what do we

see? We get the same old pat answers, and that is that health care is improving.

Basically, the same pat answer from the Minister of Health is that health care

is improving in this Province.

All I can to the Minister of Health is that I hope that he

does not end up in hospital, because I know that the nurses will do their best,

and the doctors will do the best they can to treat the Minister of Health, or

any individual within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador - they will do

their best to treat any individual who goes to the hospital - but they are -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: As I said, Mr. Chairman, if any individual,

the Minister of Health included - I have been in there as an MHA, and I have

been treated well, but I have to tell you, and I want to say quite clearly, that

the nursing staff in the hospitals in this Province, from what I can gather in

listening to them, are being strained. They are being worked to the hilt, and

this legislation, although it is welcome legislation, really won't address the

major concerns with respect to the health care of the patients in the Province.

It will address the professional association in dealing with the concerns of the

nurses themselves as a professional group. But it will not address the concerns

of the nurses that they have with respect to the health care profession and the

delivery of health care services within the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have a few

comments about this act and the importance and role of nurses here in this

Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Chairman, vital legislation and

business is here, and the interests of the people in this Province have to take

precedence over anybody's personal interest, I say to the minister. We have to

do the business at hand, I say to the Minister of Health. I'm sure we will get

home for Christmas. I'm sure in your wisdom that we will have Christmas Day at

home, and maybe some other days, I say to the minister. We have about

twenty-five or more pieces of legislation, over twenty-five I think with a few

motions and that, and the end of November when they decided to get this House

together to deal with some legislation.

Some of the legislation, I must say, is positive, in regards,

much of it is, and much of it we can certainly support. I must compliment the

Opposition House Leader here, and the Government House Leader and that for

expediting second reading on all those bills very quickly, in short course. We

haven't unduly delayed legislation that we felt is good legislation. We have had

a comment on it, and I wanted to have a comment certainly on the Registered

Nurses Act, because I feel nurses have provided a tremendous service.

They are some of the key workers out in the health care

system today. They are doing a tremendous job under difficult circumstances. We

are seeing a change in the Province from what was once full-time to 25 per cent

today are casual nurses, many called in on short notice and so on. Called in the

mornings. They have to rush in and get to work. Maybe work three hours in a day

and back home again. We have seen a shift really in the workloads of those

nurses. Nurses that serve in emergency departments, on the floors of hospitals.

Everybody I guess in this House has somebody related to them who has been sick

and been in hospital. I never hear complaints on the nurses and their

dedication, the work that they do.

We do have a big problem too, I say, in the system where we

have a problem with the quantity of nurses, not the quality that is being

provided here. It has been said to me - I was visiting in a hospital and bumped

into a lady about two weeks ago, and her husband - and I made reference here in

the House - who was in and had surgery. Actually, surgery for cancer. Indicated:

You know, it is (inaudible) that when you bring a loved one to hospital now, you

have to go with him in the hospital now, and you almost have to stay there with

him in hospital. Because the numbers and so on of people in hospital today, it

is so stretched now they are just run off their feet practically in trying to

care for the people under their control.

Years ago when I worked in a hospital for thirteen months,

different parts, from emergency departments to others, and it is different

today. I visit hospitals fairly frequently. Like most members here, and most

people out in the public, go in to visit people when they are in hospital from

their communities and people who they know. They are finding that the number of

patients under the care of nurses now, while people say: Look, the number hasn't

increased substantially, but the intensity of the care that is needed to give to

these people has. Because in hospital they would bring you in, you would be in

there for three to five days before an operation, which wasn't really a serious

or critical operation, and they would be there, and you wouldn't need the highly

sensitive care, or a higher intensity of care. After an operation they would

keep you there for another week or two. I've seen people in hospitals for long

periods of time after operations before they were discharged.

Today you are doing your pre-admission, which I support. A

pre-admission, you go in, and when you go in hospital you are moved out very

quickly, before you get a full recuperation, because there is always somebody

more urgent ready to go in. That has become a part of the system. Putting people

out in the communities today, we need a structure, a shifting in resources in

our system too, to build up a community infrastructure.

I had the opportunity to chair a project that was a pioneer

project, I guess, in health care, one in Denmark and one here in Newfoundland

was selected to a nursing model in primary health care. In 1990 it began and

endorsed by this government, by federal government, the World Health

Organization, by the United Nations and it was a patterned project to try to

make people aware in the community of the urgent need to assist better in caring

for their own health, not just leaving the health professions by taking active

role in mobilizing the community and enabling the community resources to pull

together not only in educating and preventing and there has been a shift today

in the type of care that we need in the Province. We need to have an education,

a preventive focus on medicine today, and I must say there are efforts being

made in that area, but unfortunately, the resources really to support those

efforts on the level that we need are not happening quickly enough.

People today value their care, they value their health. The

minister indicated and the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, in his

Budget, that we are not going to touch health care this year, we are going to

give you the same amount for the next three years. I mean, to freeze a health

care budget when increasing cost of pharmaceutical, increasing cost of

technology and equipment, increasing inflationary aspects in operating hospital

facility-wise and personal-wise and other areas are becoming demanding, and is

the same as having a reduction in the Budget.

Many things happened that were not supposed to happen in the

Budget that happened since and there have been cutbacks. There have been

cutbacks in health care since the Budget. What is happening now, what we are

doing and it is happening a lot I can tell you - in education it is very similar

- what we are doing by the economies in the system by re-organizing the hospital

boards here in St. John's and it is important to have re-organization, we have

never opposed the re-organization if it is going to reduce non-health related

cost in the system, but we do not want to see re-organization that pull dollars

out of the system as we are doing in education. We want these dollars to be left

in the system to be utilized within the system because people value it.

Health care is our number one priority. Education being a

very high priority too, probably right up there next to health, and it is

important that the nurses are being foot soldiers out there, have given

considerable time and effort, they do a tremendous job under very stressful

conditions at times, with tremendous amounts of responsibility now, we are

dealing with more acute cases on an ongoing basis, and I think it is important

that we realize that, that we have to work with them. In my district now, and I

think the minster is aware, they are trying a new innovative thing on the

community health centre I say to the minister, and patterned I guess in Quebec,

the CLSCs, how the concept has operated in Quebec for some time in which you try

to involve the different disciplines with the medical areas together to have

their focus in a community base, and we do have a severe problem in providing

medical service in particular the rural parts in this Province, to rural

Newfoundland, to Labrador, there are concerns.

I think the minister today made reference that even further

difficulties may be on the horizon in being able to recruit specialists here in

the Province. We have had to depend a lot on foreign specialists coming here

because we could not find our own specialists and our doctors to be able to

provide this service. The crunch is on when we have over eighty unfilled

positions, I think seventy-eight to be exact I think, at the moment, unfilled

positions out there. It is very, very difficult to try to see with regulations I

think, the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons recently I think,

recommended that we not bring in outside specialists from certain particular

areas because of different training techniques and different methods in training

until they receive standing or a course and undergo intensive certification here

within Canada.

So all this put increasing demands - what it tells us today

and it relates very closely to nurses - increasing demands on physicians, people

are depending more on nurses. I know of people out in the community in their own

free time nurses out in communities are called many times. They work at

hospitals in other areas, they get called at their homes when someone is sick,

they give up their own free time to go out and health care for these people on a

non-compensatory basis. It is happening in many instances there and we have seen

a devastation of services in rural parts of our Province in terms of health

care. We have gone through cutbacks in almost all parts of the Province and what

is happening out here, we would like to see - people feel that rural

Newfoundland is bearing the brunt because they are saying there is not enough

money now. MCP is saying they even fully fund the ones that are there now until

the end of March in doctors. So how can we say we are actively seeking to fill

eighty positions when we have been told there is not enough in the budget to

carry us to the end of this year now? It impacts down to the people in the

community, if you have no doctor and somebody is sick or there is a problem they

call the nurse who they happen to know who lives up the street or down in the

next community and they are having to depend on these people who may have just

come home from work from a twelve hour shift and have to give their services

again. So not only out in the community, it is happening within the institutions

here too, those increased pressures being placed upon nurses in the Province. I

think we have to take a very serious look at where we are heading with reference

to -

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: Just a minute, half-minute. We have to look

seriously -

CHAIR: Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Leave.

CHAIR: By leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, we have to look

seriously at where we are in health care. We are having severe problems,

particularly, not only in rural Newfoundland where it is more acute but we are

also having it here in urban parts of the Province. I think a very serious look

has to be taken and something done about it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On motion, clauses 1 through 4 as amended, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I just noticed here - not noticed, I had it

marked to speak on clause 12 of the bill, which would amend the act by

increasing the penalty for misusing the title `Registered Nurse' from $50 to

$1,000. Now that to me is a very important clause in this bill because of course

we know now that the legislation is there to tighten up the act. The act itself,

Mr. Chairman, is to protect the public and the nurses themselves within the

association. The fine before, for holding yourself out as a registered nurse or

a professional nurse, Mr. Chairman, was only $50. Now $1,000 seems to me - if

the nurses association are satisfied with it, I have no problem with it but I

wanted to highlight the fact that the importance of that

section or clause 12,

that the people within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador have to be

certainly protected.

I don't know of any particular situation, Mr. Chairman, where

a person has held himself or herself out as a nurse but certainly it is

something that has to be addressed and certainly has to be avoided at all costs.

We cannot have people treating patients within the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador or basically coming into the Province holding themselves out as a

nurse, Mr. Chairman, within the Province. The nurses association, I would

imagine the minister had some discussion with the nurses association on this

point, if he had any consultation whatsoever with the nurses and as far as we

know he did have some consultation with the nurses, at least I hope he did, Mr.

Chairman. This section, I would like the minister to address that probably

before he closes the - before voting upon this bill, if he believes $1,000 is

sufficient in clause 12 as a penalty or if he thinks that it should be more?

Obviously if it is there he thinks $1,000 is sufficient I suppose, Mr. Chairman,

but I would like to know if he had some specific consultation with the nurses

union on that specific clause?

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. MATTHEWS: Just one comment, Mr. Chairman, to indicate

again to the House so that there is clarity in their minds, not that probably

they need it any more, but all of the amendments that are being sought and

incorporated in this bill have been put together as a result of the

representation made by the Registered Nurses Association and they have their

full support and collaboration.

I move third reading.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act". (Bill

No. 23)

On motion clauses 5 through to 16, inclusive, carried.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill

without amendment, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I know that as far as the

Opposition House Leader is concerned the next one I am going to call is, "An Act

To Amend The Jury Act", but the Minister of Justice will be back shortly so I

would like to move to Order No. 6 and call, "An Act To Amend The Portability Of

Pensions Act (No. 2)", (Bill No. 28), if that is okay.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Portability Of Pensions Act (No.

2)". (Bill No. 28)

On motion, clause 1 carried.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill

without amendment, carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I move to Committee of the Whole

on a bill, "An Act To Amend The Urban And Rural Planning Act", (Bill No. 35).

That is a Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs bill.

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Urban And Rural Planning Act".

(Bill No. 35)

CHAIR: Shall Clause 1 carry?

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: If I could, I think the minister is proposing

an amendment. He might want to read that into the bill now so that members

understand where we are with this bill.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs.

MR. A. REID: "An Act To Amend The Urban And Rural

Planning Act", clause 2 of the bill is amended by striking out the phrase, `by

an applicant', and by striking out the words, `that applicant', and substituting

those words with, `the appellant', in the proposed subsection 8.1 (3). Okay,

Harvey?

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, if we could -

CHAIR: Order, please!

MR. TULK: A point of order.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I had an agreement with the Opposition House

Leader, and I made a mistake when I called that bill. What I would like to do

is, by leave of the House, to withdraw the bill now and put it back in Committee

at some other stage, and move on, if I could, to "An Act To Amend The City of

St. John's Act", (Bill No. 25).

CHAIR: Order, please!

It is the understanding of the Chair that the Government

House Leader wishes to withdraw Bill 35 from the consideration of the Committee

of the Whole at this time.

All in favour, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, `nay'.

Motion carried.

CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Order No. 12, Committee of the Whole on a bill,

"An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act", (Bill No. 25).

A bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act". (Bill

No 25)

CHAIR: Shall clause 1 carry?

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I stand in my place today, in Committee, to

speak on Bill No. 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act". There are a

few points we want to address here, of course.

Section 9 of the bill deals with

a person who becomes bankrupt or insolvent, may be eligible for re-election

after that person has obtained an order, a discharge, or a proposal accepted by

the creditors. Previous to this bill a person who became insolvent actually had

to resign from council, as far as I know. We had some discussion on this before,

once a person becomes insolvent it does not necessarily mean that that person is

not suitable or capable of addressing the concerns of individuals within the

city. Of course we agree with that

section of the bill.

Section 2 talks about regulations respecting winter

maintenance of roads and snow clearing, and with regard to wires, their streets,

with regard to the registration of electrical wires and what have you. Of course

that is a good move because the maintenance part of the City of St. John's has

to deal with these concerns all the time. We had some dealings, too, with the

definition of nuisance.

AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible)

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what we talked about and that is

what I am doing. The city is not liable for nuisance. We had some discussion the

other day on that, defining nuisance, but I believe that is elsewhere in the

City of St. John's Act, the actual definition of nuisance is defined, so that is

not a major concern, but we do have some amendments to move.

I am going to move three amendments. Do we do it one at a

time or three at a time? What way would you like for it to happen?

MR. TULK: Why do you not propose the amendments and then

we can work on each clause?

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, here we go. To move the following

amendments, Mr. Chairman. Bill 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act"

now before the House is amended by deleting Clauses 4 and 5.

AN HON. MEMBER: Will do what?

MR. J. BYRNE: Delete Clauses 4 and 5, seconded by the

Member for St. John's East.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what we are going to find out now.

Bill 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act which is

now before the House be amended by deleting Subclause 1 (1) and substituting the

following: 1 (1) Subsection 9 (1) of the City of St. John's Act is amended by

deleting all the words following the words, `the term of office', and

substituting the words, `is absent from the Province for a period of twelve

consecutive months shall stop being a member of the council", seconded by the

Member for St. John's East.

And that Clause 4 of Bill 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of

St. John's Act which is now before the House be amended by deleting the word

"repealed" and substituting the following therefore, amended by deleting the

number "20,000" and substituting the number "25,000" therefor. Seconded by.

Mr. Chairman, I don't know if you want to decide if these are

in order or not before we go any further.

CHAIR (Mr. Barrett): The Chair needs copies of these

amendments.

MR. J. BYRNE: They are passed out.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I would imagine the purpose of that is to

see which is in order (inaudible) not in order, (inaudible). The way those were

put there, if the first one is not in order, well then we go to the next down

the line, that way. That is the way it was intended, I do believe.

CHAIR: The Chair will get copies. We are having

photocopies made.

MR. J. BYRNE: We have our copies here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: He has to move it.

CHAIR: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, my colleague was introducing it and I was going to

second it, but in view of the fact that my name is on the amendment, I will move

the amendment. I guess, formally, it can be seconded by my colleague, the Member

for Cape St. Francis.

With respect to the first amendment, which I understand the

hon. the minister and the Government House Leader now have, clause 1 removes

subsection 9.1(

c) which forces a member of council who becomes insolvent or

bankrupt during the term of office to stop being a member of council. It also

deletes subsection 9.2 which says: A person who becomes bankrupt or insolvent

may be eligible for re-election after that person has obtained an order of

discharge or a proposal accepted by the creditors.

What the amendment is in fact doing - I will just read it. It

says, and I quote:

That Bill 25,

An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act,

which is now before the House be amended by deleting subclause 1(1) and

substituting the following therefor:

"(1) Subsection 9(1) of the City Of St. John's Act is amended

by deleting all the words following the words `the term of office' and

substituting therefor the words `is absent from the province for a period of 12

consecutive months shall stop being a member of the council.'"

The reason why this particular amendment is being brought

forward is to delete the reference in the original legislation which states: Is

convicted for an indictable offence.

The concern there is that what this

section is saying is that

a person who has been convicted of an indictable offence is simply ineligible

from seeking office as a councillor. A person may well have been convicted of an

indictable offence fifteen, twenty-five or thirty years ago. It seems to be

somewhat perhaps unreasonable, certainly unfair, that an individual who may,

twenty years ago, have been convicted, is now precluded from seeking office for

the municipality.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I'm sorry?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: What is not factual?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, but isn't that what the original

legislation is saying? In the original Act? Mr. Chairman, it was my

understanding the Act, as it now stands, that is how it reads. It is my

understanding that the Act as it now stands refers to the fact that a member

could be stopped from being a member of council if he or she is absent from the

Province for a period of twelve months, and is convicted for an indictable

offence. However, I stand to be corrected on that, but that is my understanding

of what the present legislation states. The concern is that a person who is

convicted of an indictable offence is then precluded from standing for election

in a municipality.

CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs.

MR. A. REID: My learned friend and colleague from across

the way, if you pay particular attention to 9 (1), and 9 (1) reads, `a member of

council who during the term of office'. Now, `during the term of office'. If you

go then to `is convicted of an indictable offence'. The reason that is there is,

hypothetically, I suppose, or logically, if you are sitting on city council in

St. John's and you are convicted of an indictable offence you could end up

serving the rest of your term in the penitentiary, so it is not a question of

having been convicted and not being allowed to run. It is a question of actually

sitting on council at the time that you are convicted of an indictable offence.

Do you follow what I am saying?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: If that is the

interpretation the

concern is, if that is the

interpretation.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: I got that from the Table. If you read the

opening sentence, `A member of the council who, during the term of office,' and

then you follow with (a), (b), (c), `during the term of office'. There is

nothing in the law that prevents someone who was convicted of an indictable

offence twelve years ago and now he wants to run. In fact I know of a case not

too far from my hometown where there is a person serving on council who was

convicted of an indictable offence some years ago, but he sits on council. There

is nothing to stop that person from running after he pays the penalty or serves

his term. That is there to protect the council at the time that a person who is

actually sitting on council, if he or she commits an indictable offence and has

to be sent off to, say Dorchester, and then you have a council short one person.

That is the

interpretation from the Table.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If that is the

interpretation, and the understanding of that legislation, I accept that. The

concern was raised from the point of view of a person being precluded from

running. However, if the hon. the minister is correct in that position, I accept

that, and therefore, that amendment will be withdrawn.

MR. TULK: Which amendment?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In the interest of time, Mr. Chairman,

if that is the

interpretation and position of the minister, that amendment is

withdrawn.

There is a second amendment, Mr. Chairman, to move the

following amendment: That Bill 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act",

which is now before the House, be amended by deleting clauses 4 and 5.

Clause 4 repeals

section 284, which deals specifically with

the Minister of Finance paying a $20,000 grant from the Province to the City for

motor car fees, and a grant in aid for the upkeep of Bowring Park formerly

received by the council. It has been the position of members on this side of the

House, and the issue has been raised publicly, that the reference to Bowring

Park, for example, is an important issue and one which is quite close to many

people in this region but, of course, not restricted to residents of this region

because, certainly, people who visit our city from wherever enjoy the

surroundings of Bowring Park in the west end of the city.

The reason for this amendment is that we find it unacceptable

that an amount of $20,000, which is certainly not in the scheme of things a

significant amount of money, just being arbitrarily withdrawn from City coffers

by this particular grant not being available to the City, therefore, the

amendment that is being sought is simply that there be a deletion of clauses 4

and 5 with respect to Bill No. 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act".

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: The amendment is in order, and the amendment is,

for clarification: That Bill 25, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act",

which is now before the House, be amended by deleting clauses 4 and 5.

Shall clause 1 carry?

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I take it that the amendment is in order?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, okay.

Mr. Chairman, with respect to the amendment itself, and the

proposal by the Member for St. John's East to have

section 4 removed, basically

the City of St. John's, as the member said - and we have had some discussion in

this House before - is getting a grant for $20,000 from the Provincial

Government for Bowring Park and transportation within the City. Basically it is

not a large amount of money, but the number of cuts that the municipalities have

received over the past number of years is getting harder and harder for the

municipalities to bear.

Also, with respect to Bowring Park itself, as we all know it

is basically a regional park, or more like a provincial park. The park itself

has been utilized by tourists coming into the Province from all over the world,

and it is promoted by the City and by the Province as a tourist attraction over

the years. It has certainly been utilized as a tourist attraction, and it should

not have to be just the responsibility of the City of St. John's to maintain

that facility.

We know that the park itself is a beautiful park. It costs a

lot to operate that park each year. The City of St. John's has an amount set

aside each year to run the park, and for the Province now to just take out

$20,000 from that is unreasonable, in my estimation. It is unreasonable in the

eyes of the Member for St. John's East, of course, or he certainly would not

have put forward this amendment. Hopefully the minister will agree with this

amendment and leave the City of St. John's with the $20,000.

Also, another concern is the fact that if this bill goes

through the House as presented by the minister, it is retroactive. It comes into

force April 1, 1996. In actual fact, I do not really know at this point in time

if the City of St. John's has received that $20,000. If they have, if this

becomes retroactive, the city may actually have to pay it back to the Province.

Now that does not seem reasonable to me, Mr. Chairman.

MR. A. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon, Minister?

MR. A. REID: (Inaudible) do not have it yet.

MR. J. BYRNE: They do not have it yet? Well, it is all

the more important that they receive it. The Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs says that the City of St. John's has not received that money

yet. So, Mr. Chairman, they must have allotted that in their budget for 1996.

So, in actual fact, it is even a more serious situation than we had anticipated,

it might be taken back. It is there now, budgeted for the $20,000. They have not

received it so it is all the more reason for the minister to agree with this

amendment that has been put forward by the Member for St. John's East.

Now, getting back to the park itself, Mr. Chairman, the park

is a large area within the boundaries of the city of St. John's. It is a large

area. As I said, it is being utilized by tourists who travel to the Province. It

has been utilized by people all over the Avalon Peninsula, Mr. Chairman, more

frequently I would say by people on the Avalon Peninsula than people from

further west of the Avalon Peninsula but people do come in from all over the

Province and Labrador to utilize that park. I know people in my district who

take full days and make a trip to Bowring Park for a holiday with their family.

So really it is a provincial facility and the Province should see fit to keep

those few dollars going to the City of St. John's.

Now, the minister will probably get on his feet and say,

`Well you know, cuts are coming all the time. It is a time of restraint and what

have you, Mr. Chairman, but personally speaking I am sick and tired of hearing

the word `cuts.' The people in the Province are sick and tired of hearing the

word `cuts' and it is time now that the government started looking at basically

holding the line and not cutting the services to the municipalities any further

than what they have received. Since 1989, Mr. Chairman, the municipalities in

this Province have been getting major, major cuts. I think the minister will

agree that what is planned by this Province is that all grants to the

municipalities are due to end in the very near future. I would say, Mr.

Chairman, in the very near future, probably within another year to two years, I

would expect, from what the minister has said in this House, that all grants to

the municipalities will be cut.

Now, Mr. Chairman, as I said before, the municipal operating

grants, especially with the s