Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 44B (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-44b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): I call the Committee to order, on Labour and Man power, page 84, we are on 2.( d)(1 ) Salaries. The Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Thank you, Mr . Chairm an.

I just wanted to put on the record, there was some discussion yesterday about the possible legislation on youth employment standards, people working in all night situations, and I know that in previous discussions and in interviews, reference has been made to protection for yo ung women working late hours. I assume that neither the Minister nor his Legislative Assistant nor his Deputy were wanting to be sexist in the references.

It was jus t inadvertent that the point was made to me that in making standards for yo ung people working late hours, that boys were ju st as vulnerable as girls under the circumstances and that I ough t to bring that to the Minister's attention. I am sure he's already contemplating that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. VIC SCHROE DER (Rossmere): Yes, I don't recall referring to young girls, but ... MR. FILMON: This wasn't yesterday. This was in some news discussion prior to this and I received a couple of phone calls as a matter of fact, so I made a note of it to bring it up at this time. MR.

SCHROEDER: Certainly the member is correct. We're concerned about all people , including not only the younger people but older people working by themselves as well. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2.( d)(1 ) Salaries-pass. The Member for St. No rbert. MR. G.W.J. MERCIER (St. Norbert ): Mr . Cha irman, ju st perhaps a final ques tion. We've discussed a number of areas tha t the Minister intended to review with the possibility of a change in legislation. Are there any other areas that the Minister is reviewing or has under active or serious consideration? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR.

SCHROEDER: Yes, we're looking at The Pay ment of Wages Act. We don't have anything formal ized on it but we're looking at the amendment made a few years ago where wages were put behind mort gages and we're looking to see what we can do there. We're looking at and we expect to bring in legislation in this Session dealing with first contract negotiations. We're also considering and expect to bring in legis lation dealing with domestic worker s to change the current position where they do not come under The Hu man Rights Act, Employment Standards Act, Pay ment of Wages Act, etc. MR.

MERCIER: How long does the Minister antici pate it will be before that legislation is distributed in the House? MR. SCHROEDER: I would hope that it would be introduced within the next two weeks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( d)(1 )-p ass; 2.( d)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 2.(d)

(3) Payment of Wages Fund- pass; 2.(e) - do you have an opening state ment, Mr. Minister? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Manitoba Labour Board. MR. SCHR OED ER: Yes, The Board is primarily responsible for the administration of certain sections of The Labo ur Re lations Act, The Employm ent Stan dards Act, Construction Indus try Wages Act, Vaca tions with Pay Act, Workpla ce Safety and Health Act, and The Payment of Wages Act. The functions of the board can be broken down into two parts: (1 ) as the Ma nitoba Labour Board which deals with app lications filed pursuant to The Labour Re lations Act and Workplace Safety and Health Act; (2) as the Wages Board appointed under

Section 2 of The Payment of Wages Act which deals with com plaints referred to the board by the Employment Standards Division under The Payment of Wages Act, Employment Standards Act, Vacations with Pay Act and The Construction Ind ustry Wages Act.

The objectives of the board are: (1 ) to accept, pro cess and adj udicate matters as expedi tiously as pos sible enabling the parties to resume normal labour management relations with the minimum am ount of disruption, (2) to assist in the development of sound labour management relations by providing expert information to both parties in matters dealing with The Labour Relations Act. Staffing: In '81 -82 there were seven staff years.

We requested nine for '82-83, an increase of two: (1 ) for an additional board officer position to assist in meet ing the increasing workload of the board; (2) one staff year for an additional cler ical position to assist in meeting the increasing clerical workload of the board . MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. 201 5 MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, what does the Minister attribute the additional workload of the board to? MR. SCHROEDER: There have over the years been an increasing number of items to adju dicate as well as the Wage Board.

The board is performing a function now that it had n't been performing in the past. It was performing it last year. I am told that there were some real staff problems.

MR. FILMON: What is that function that it's perform ing as the Wage Board? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, as the Wage Board, appointed under Sect ion 2 of The Payment of Wages Act deals with complaint s referred by the Employ ment Standards Division under The Payment of Wages Act, Employment Standards Act, Vacations with Pay Act, and Construction Indus try Wages Act. MR. FILMON: Who had performed that function previously? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, the initial response given was incorrect.

I assumed that was the worklo ad which had been passed on to it as a result of the previous appropria tion, the $1 50,000 wage fund, that is not the case. This is simply a matter of increasing workload due to more people comi ng before the board with complaint s. Ther e have been increasing bankrup tcies; there have been increasing receiver ships and ther e have been increasing problems in terms of wage recovery. MR. FILMON: I believe that the Minister indicated yesterday that this was the

section under which the first contract legislation should be discussed, is that correct? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. FILMON: Can the Minister indicate what are the objectives of first contract legislation? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The objec tives of first contract legislation are to attempt to ensur e that in the relatively few instances where there are certifications in this province where there are serious difficulties between labour and management because of misu nderstandings by either or both par ties as to the effect of that certification and where feelings beg in to get very high about that, that there be a mechan ism which would allow for an imposed first contract which would give a 12 -m onth period dur ing which time the employer and the employees could get to live with eac h other without that kind of rancor that sometimes - most of the time it doesn't happen but sometimes this happens dur ing first contract negotiations when you have the empl oyees relatively new at that game and the employer some times hurt by the notion that the employees have gone to a union.

It is the kind of legislation that is already law in Quebec and Br itish Columbia and in Canada feder ally. It's not some thing that will perform mi racles. It has proven to be used very seldom, for instance, in British Columbia and the other jur isdictions. It is, however, an item that we think complements the other concerns we have that I was men tioning previously with respect to conciliation and that is; that we believe there is a role to be played by the Labo ur Board in prevention and mediation and this is one other area where we believe that there can be some prevention.

Now that doesn't mean that at the end of the one year the bird will be taught to fly by the government, 29 April, 19 82 so to speak. At that point the parties will be on their own.

There's no intention of doing anyth ing other than giving them that one year dur ing which time it is my hope that, if we have the manpower, that we will be able to work with both the employer and the employees to see whether a spirit of co-operation can be devel oped in the workp lace rather than having the very seldom but what sometimes happens now a long, bitter, ugly strike that leaves the employer in financial difficulty and leaves the employee feeling very bitter toward the employer. It is, I believe, a civilized manner of dispute avoi dance to start off a new relationship between employer and employee.

It is not a magical solution as I indi cated before. It 's not some thing that is going to solve all disput es nor is it some thing that we have any inten tion of using on occasions other than first contracts. MR. FILMON: Perhaps the Minister could guide me in this. Is he sayi ng that a contract is drawn up by a representative or representatives of the government which contains all the terms and conditions that are imposed upon both parties, the Labour Union and the management, where it is the first year of a new certifi cation of a barg aining unit in a busi ness, in an industry? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, the Lab our Board would take into considera tion, of course, any items that had already been barg ained between the parties. Those items that have not been bargained, the Labour Board would consider, would listen to both parties and make the decision for the first year. MR. FILMON: What are the legal recourses of both sides to this imposed contract, the conditions of this imposed contract, that is, would the unions still go on strike if they were unhappy with the contract? 2016 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Chairman, it would be illegal for the union to strike once the contract was imposed and it would be illegal for the employer to lock out the empl oyees. Once the con tract is at an end, regular relations would resume and if bargaining had not been concluded, then in the normal course a strike would be legal and so would a lockout. MR. FILMON: Does the Minister think that this will either attract investme nt or the esta blishment of new businesses in the province or have a detrimental effect on the attraction of investment in new business to Manitoba? MR.

SCHROEDER: We believe that it's not going to have business running from all parts of Canada to come to Man itoba; on the other hand, we do not believe that business will be running away or be afraid of it. The British Columbia Government has had many years of experience with this type of legislation and the Ben nett Government has kept the leg islation in effect for the past seven years, so I don't imag ine they see any difficulty with it.

Our discus sions with officials from the people admin istering the Canad ian operation and the British Colum bia operation indicate that their opinion is that this specific type of provision has had a significant

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 deterre nt value and has promoted constructive and sincere collective bargai ning between the parties without the need of third party intervention. That, of course, is what we're aimi ng at. We're aiming to have nobody coming before the board. We don't want to have situations where we are going to be imposing a first contract. On the other hand, if things come to that tu rn, we believe that in the interests of all concerned this is better than ju st having that kind of a scrap at that point.

That doesn't mean we give up our view about the benefits of free collective barg aining, it ju st means that in this instance we believe we can improve rela tions between employer and empl oyee and in the long run it will be to the benefit of all of us. MR. FILMON: I think the Minister sort of paused and then shifted gears in the middle of a statement. He said that he believes that this type of legislation would have a significant deterrent value. Deterrent to what? MR.

SCHROEDER: A deterrent from nonconstruc tive barg aining; a deterrent from bad faith barga ining that sometimes is involved the first time around. MR.

FILM ON: In view of the fact that the Minister has acknowledged that this type of legislation won' t necessa rily have businesses or investors running to Man itoba to invest or set up businesses, and in view of the fact that accord ing to the information he's given, only two other provinces, B.C. and Quebec now have this type of legislation; why is it such a large priority consideri ng the fact that Man itoba is having difficulty attracting the investment that it needs for its eco nomic development and future growth and you know, businesses are going bank rupt and all sorts of eco nomic difficulties are being experi enced in the mar ketplace, which have an adverse effect on labour, as well as business simply because of the layoffs, the unavailability of satisfactory employment?

I think we're facing significant high levels of unemplo yment. Why is this such a maj or priority at this point in time? Does the Minister not believe that maybe his gov ernment should evaluate the economic conditions at the moment, prior to movi ng ahead so rapidly with this type of legislation? MR. SCHROEDER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, the member will recall there was an election camp aign last fall. One of the specific commitments the New Demo cratic Party made was that this would be one of the top priorities and we undertook that this would be one of the items that would be passed in the first Session.

We have no evidence and the member has pres ented no evidence to this committee that this will in any way deter business. In fact we believe that it will not deter busi ness and tha t it will be to the benefit of both busi ness and labour to have this legislation in effect. We believe that there is no evidence from B.C. that it in any way was negative to the settling of busi ness into B.C. We don't know of any evidence that it has affected negatively business investment in Can ada because the Canada La bour Re lations Board has the same powers.

We do n't know of any evidence that particular item has caused problems with respect to the Province of Quebec. That being the case, we see no logical reason to wait until Session No. 2 in presenting this legislation to the Leg islature and we will proceed and again, we believe that there are no negative features to it and we also believe that there are many positive featu res to it. MR. FILM ON: Wel l, firstly I didn't make the statement about whether or not it would be attractive to busi nesses.

I simply repeated what the Minister had said, which was that he didn't believe that it would have businesses or investors running to Man itoba to invest or set up a business. Second ly, I think that there are rather significant economic indicators that are in the marketplace today that ought to be taken into account, such as highest unempl oyment levels in a decade, such as record bank ruptcies, such as layoffs that are unprecedented in various maj or sector industries in the province and so on and so forth.

So these are different times than we have had even a year ago or five years ago or a decade ago and, therefore, it would seem only pru dent that this government or any government in power would look very carefully at any thing that might be a deterrant. And I say mig ht, even if he's not su re, even if he can't find evidence, it might be a deterrent. He ought to look carefully at it and if he is concerned about kee ping promises, I can sug gest that there are a number of others on the plate that haven't yet been fulfilled and this migh t ju st fall in with that category. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. 2017 MR. SCHROE DER: Well, Mr . Chairman, that is an interesting comment. Even if there is no evidence that it is going to harm the economy because the member decides so, we should hold back on legislation. The fact of the matter is that it is our opinion that it will benefit us and when he quotes me, I would appreciate him quoting me in total and not ju st half of a quote. When he says that I said that it wouldn't cause busi nesses from all over Canada to run to Man itoba, that is correct. I said that.

I also said, very specifically, that I did not expect that this legislation would in any way inhibit any business from comi ng to this province and I would appr eciate being correctly quoted if I am being quoted. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, ju st to complete that statement. It is a little difficult in committee to retain rather lengthy responses and it so happens that was the portion of the Minister's respons e that I did recall at the time. I apprecia te his added words but as well, he is quoting a portion of what I said.

The fact of the matter is, even if he doesn't have evidence that this legislation will prevent people from coming here to invest, that isn't only what he ought to be concerned about. He ought to be concerned with legislation that attracts people to come here and I do n't think that he is sug gesting that this will attract people to come here. I think it is significant that only two other provin ces have this type of legislation. I am not so sure that he has given us any great ass urances of its effect in those areas.

So I, for one, believe that the Minister is acting hastily at a time when prudence ought to be the hallmark of the day, given the economic circumstan-

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 ces that all of us are facing collectively in this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for St. Norb ert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I indicated at the beginning that I didn't want to debate this subject matter at length because a bill would be coming before the Hou se and it would be debated fully at that time. I wonder though if I migh t jus t ask two or three questions. Can the Minister cite the numb er of instances that have occurred in Man itoba that ju stify this type of legislation? MR.

SCHROEDER: No, I don't have any specific num bers, but we all know of cases where the first time around there were some real problems, some hostility by an emp loyer, some misund erstanding by the empl oyee sitting at the barg aining table as to exactly what their new role was. These types of things have escalated. There is no doubt that they have come about a numb er of times and this is one preventative measure.

I should say again though that people whom we have talked to with the Canada Lab our Relations Board and the British Colum bia Labour Relations Board have comm ended this legislation and have said that it does act as a deterrent to bad faith bargai ning. So, it see ms to me that if we have some thing positive that we can get done, we ought to do it. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister acknowledge that ju st as much if not more strife can occur in second contracts, third contracts, fourth or, on and on. MR.

SCHROEDER: Yes, absol utely, as I indicated in my lengthy answer previously, this is an attempt and if it can't fly we're not going to bring this kind of legisla tion to bear on a second contract. We're talking about a first contract and at times things happen the second tim e around to put people on strike and sometimes those things aren't resolved. Some times employers suffer bad ly by it; someti mes emplo yees suffer badly by it.

In either case, usually, other mem bers of the public are badly affected by it, but we have no inten tion of changing general labour law in the province with respect to either the right to strike or the right to lock out except ing in the situation of the first contract. Again, if it happens that we imp ose a settlement or discover that there are problems in a first contract, if there are difficulties before settlement is reached, it is my hope that we will have the staff available to do some preventive conciliation during the first year.

That doesn't mean that we aren't going to do it with other companies because it is out intention to be doing that with people who may have been unionized for many years. If we feel that there's a problem that can be solved by conciliation during the lifetime of any other contract, and if the parties are prepared to have us help them, then we will be prepared to help them providing we have the staffing available. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the point I was tryi ng to make in asking the memb er about which he has ack nowledged that ju st as much strife can occur in second, third, fourth, etc., contracts, will the legisla tion be ju st deal ing with imposition of a first contract or will he be attemp ting in this or additional legislation to deal with the whole barg aining process to encour age bargaining in good faith by both sides? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there are some provisions that are being strengthened in terms of good faith barg aining.

There's no other sug gest ion of some kind of arbitrated settlement other than in a first contract where it is requested. I should say that the experien:::e both with the Canada Labour Rela tions Board and B.C. Labour Relations Board is that it's basically been preventative. It's been very seldom that a contract has actually been imposed and we hope that pattern continues here as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll try and keep my com ments fairly brief but the Minister has raised a ques tion or two in my mind and I would like clarification on two or three ol the items. I have to say it's so mewhat different to hear the softspo keness of the Minister that we have today and the way in which he's approa ching the dep art me nt. I wonder if he's being very cautious, walking carefully and selective in his words, or whether he's strongly commit ted to moving on the leg islation he referred to or ju st what his though ts are.

It's hard to get him to put a firm policy position forward as the Minister. 201 8 Having had the oppor tunity to sit in the last four years with the Minister of Labour who knew the direc tion he wanted go and give Labour the protection that I'm sure the people in the labour movement felt very strongly about was some thing I think is worth men tioning. Ken Mac Master did an excellent job of keep ing that whole workforce and labour mo vement, I think, working well with management and I think he should be given credit for it.

It's very difficult to hear the policies of the Minister who as I've indicated is very softspoken. One of the things that concerns me is that the Minis ter is indicating that there's no evidence that would sug gest that it isn't going to be good for the Province of Man itoba moving on a particular piece of legisla tion. What evidence does he have that we should move on legislation? Who does he consult with in managemen t and labour to make the decisions before he's prepared to propose legislation?

Because ii he's moving on it because it was an election prom ise, don't let that bother, because if he moves on it it'll be the only election prom ise that he and his governme nt live up to other than the fact that the Premier gave the Member for Neepawa a Cabinet post. So, you know, don't get hung up about that. So I've asked two basic ques tions, really. Who sup ports it and what evidence does he have for the sup port of the legislation that he's going to ask the people of Man itoba to live under?

Who does he consult with in management, business, and the labour movemen t to come forward with these appr oaches? Those are the first two questions.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chair ma n, I've met with members of the Man itoba Feder ation of Labour and they've indicated that they would ap preciate this kind of legislation. -(I nterjection)- No, I haven't met with the Farmers Union - I heard that, but I have met on several occasions with the executive group from the Chamber of Commerce to discuss this very specifi cally. I would say that they would prefer that we not move with it; there's no doub t about that.

On the other hand, I've ju st indicated that in those areas where the legislation is in place, people are saying they're happy with it. I've ment ioned this a number of times, I wish the member would add ress that issue. If it was so bad, if it wasn't working in Br itish Columbia, why did Social Credit not remove it after the NOP put it in? If it was so bad, why didn't the Progressive Conservatives remove it feder ally when they were in power? If it was so bad, it would have been removed in Quebec.

In fact, it was considered to be good legislation federally; it is considered to be good legislation in Que bec and in Br itish Columbia. Now based on that, I don't understand why we should n't bring in legislation that we said we would bring in. We're bringing in the legis lation that we felt we ought to bring in and we're hopefully going to be able to do that in this Session. MR. DOWNEY: The point I'm trying to make, Mr. Chairman, he hasn't demo nstrated any need for it and that's the concern that I have.

How much legislation do we have to sit here and pass on the people of Man itoba when first he's admitted that he doesn't have supp ort from the Executive Committee of the Cham ber of Commerce? He talked to the Man itoba Labour Federa tion, or whatever the name was, but he doesn't have su pport for legislation other than he's got a dogm atic hangup about moving on legislation that he promised during his election camp aign. You know, that to me doesn't make good sound govern ment. I think that if there's reason to reconsider it, I have a hard time in wondering why he's going to force it on the people of Man itoba.

Another quest ion, Mr . Chairman, that I have and I think it's fairly important. The Minister made a com ment about one of the pieces of legislation he was considering, and that was in the case of a bankru ptcy where the individual who was a wage earner would get first claim on a business if, in fact, the business went bank rupt and would take first claim on mone y ahead of the mortgage holder. Now, as long as I can reme mber, and I think this country was built, Mr.

Chairman, on the belief if you have a mortgage on a piece of property, or on any goods, or some kind of security to loan mone y on that particular good or property that you had first claim. I think you'r e going to shake the confidence of the investment commun ity, the people who now use that as a pretty maj or mec hanism or tool, to give secu rity to the busi ness world. If he's going to move and shake the confidence of further shake the confidence of the business com mun ity, I have to question his priorities particularly, Mr. Chair man, as the Member for Tuxe do has indicated.

The concerns that we have in the Province of Mani toba with the massive layoffs, with the numbers of people who are going to have to depend on investors in this province to regenerate job s or to reemploy them after the recess ion which we hope the present government doesn't continue to carry us into a lot deeper than it is, but we aren't seeing many corrective measures. To further shake the confidence of people that are going to invest in Man itoba, I think would not be the way to go. I think he said he was going to consider it, maybe he could clarify that.

How serious a consideration is it at this particular time? MR. SCHROEDER: It's under consi dera tion. We're looking at some of the problems that we believe were created when the previous government changed the legislation, and we are looking to see whether we can address some of the prob lems that the previous gov ernment saw with the leg islation as it was before. We are looking to consider some of the sub missions that had been made previously and to see whether we can improve the law. MR. DOWNEY: Wel l, Mr.

Chairma n, the Minister car ry ing dual portfolios, being Minister of Finance and Minister of Labour, probably would have a pretty good opportunity to discuss with some of the trust comp anies and the banks in the financial world to get their feelings on this very kind of legislation. It wouldn't be a complicated cross discussion with any other depar tment.

He's in complete control of the two dep artme nts, I would think, or maybe he isn't, but I would think being Minister of both, he could get that information from the investme nt community very quickly and have that at his fingertips so he'd have a feel from that side of it. The other question that I have, Mr . Chairman - it's interesting to see the present Minister operate it, one would ques tion his real feeling for the Department of Labour - where does he stand on the right to strike in ess ential service legislation and that area of essential services in this province, Mr . Cha irman? MR.

SCHROEDER: The member is indicating that I'm sup posed to ask the banks and trust comp anies what legislation to pass in this province, and it's all fine. I tell the member in all sincerity that we have been consulting with all sectors of society and we will con tinue to do so. That doesn't mean that we are going to pass legislation that is satisfactory to all. Generally, when you pass legislation it helps some and it doesn't help others and it hurts still others.

That is a problem that all governments have, including this one and the previous one. 2019 With respect to the right to strike and the right to lockout, I have no difficulty in saying I believe that employees should have that right in essential services. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairma n, I asked him specifi cally in esse ntial services like hospitals, nurses and areas of -(I nterject ion)- in grain movement, that's correct, the livelihoods of people are affected. Does he in fact, think that's the case?

For example, the grain movement or anybody that's in the medical field that life and death is a matter of having people there to care for them. Does he su pport the right to strike in that area? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, the man who is

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 ask ing the question was part of a government that for four years didn't take away the right to strike from people in hospitals and other essential services. I would hope that he wouldn't be encouraging this government to do what his government didn't do. I believe that it would be very counterproductive for Man itoba to say to its hospital workers: you must go to work regardless of whether you are going to work feeling that you should be there.

You can put people in jail like they did in Ontario.-(l nterjection)- Well, some people are men tioning it out west and I think that's a lesson we should look at. I also think that there are ways of avoiding the worst effects of that kind of a strike.

Und er the previous government, thP government before that and under this government, we are doing what we can through the Government Indus try Committee to attempt to have some kind of policy in place in the event of a strike and as I recall, there in fact was a strike in the hosp ital field within the last few years and that partic ular policy I believe, although it was stretched a bit, it did hang together. MR. DOWNEY: In my

preamble, in my comments ear lier, Mr. Chairman, he makes some comments to me now that we didn't move in four years. I indicated earlier we had a Minister of Labou r who I think, did a comme ndable job in the area of the Department of Labo ur and did in fact, work well with the manage ment and the labo ur movement and there wasn't the kinds of needs to move. But I do n't think there is any reason not to put on the record that I think those are things that have to be sorted out in the futu re, the way in which the country has to run in a co-operative way and as I've indicated , our Minister of Labour did that.

I'm hearing tonight the Minister of Labour saying that it's leg islation first and considera tion of the labour movement and the management committees following that. I don't think that's the way in which it's in the best interest of everyo ne. I certainly have some concerns with that and I think the record sho uld show that the Minister's priorities are somewhat screwed up when it comes to consider ing the unemployed people in the province because of the economic conditions that have not been helping anyone.

I think as Minister of Labour, his first concern should be to deal with the people who are being laid off, what their concerns are and how they can be assisted . Goodness knows that the daily rate or the number of busine sses that are closing eac h day, that there are other priorities that the Minister should be concerned about and mo ving on rather than legisla tion that he is sugg esting would not be bad for the people, but hasn't got any sup port for it.

If that is the case, if he's telling me now that because we did n't do some thing then they immed iately should or vice versa, I don't know what kind of a Minister we have here. He says we're going to have some kind of a policy. He has to remember, Mr. Chairma n, he is the policy maker, and we're at a committee where he is ask ing us to spend mone y on the direction that he's going to give the depar tment and the government. I'm sorry he's been pretty much of a disaster, as far as I'm concerned, answering any questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompso n. MR. STEVE ASHTON (Thompson): Thank yo u, Mr.

Chai rman. I must say I'm somewhat surprised to hear that the tune has changed, at least in regard to one item, from the opposition. For the last little while they've been hamm ering away while we're su pposed to follow through on our election promises and we've been certainly doing that. But there seems to be an area where they're not quite as concerned about us following through on our election promises and it seems that it's in the area of labour legislation, legislation that would benefit work ing men and women across this province. I must say that I think this is somewhat inconsistent.

I think we had a strong manda te for this dur ing the election. I'm pleased to see the Minister movi ng so quickly on that mandate in regard to first contract leg islation and the whole point, Mr. Chairma n, is to improve the labo ur mec hanisms we have in the province right now, the collective bargai ning mechan ism, to try and make it run more smoothly, try and get more good faith bargaining and this is certainly one move in the right direction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr.

Chairman, every thing that I want to say has probably been said, but I'm pleased to see the Minister indicate that he's movi ng with some caution and looking at all interested groups and seek ing the best advice that he can get before he rushes in with this legislation in the pretty unsettled times that we're facing in the busi ness communi ty and in labour and management rela tions, and especia lly with the leg islation to put mort gage funds a secondary charge.

That's some thing that I hope he will look very very carefully at and look at the end study results of the unfavourable situations that can arise from such leg islation. But rather than belabour it, he has indicated that he is look ing at it very carefully and is talking to all the interested groups and those that will be affected by it, and I would urge him to follow that path very very carefully. 2020 I don't know whether the manda te was all that great for him to plunge ahead with that leg islation. I don't know whether the Thompson seat was campa igning very very heavily on that type of legislation or not.

If he was I do n't think the manda te was all that great up there. But as I say, most of the things that I want to say have been said, so I won't take up the Committee's time any further, Mr. Chairman, in repeat ing them. I do caution the Minister on rush ing ahead without look ing at all of the ramifications of serious legislation such as this. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)

(1) Salaries-pass; 2. (e)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 2. (

f) Conciliation Servi ces:

(1) Salaries. Have you got an opening stateme nt, Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. -(I nterjection)- no thanks, I don't need any help. The primary responsib ility of the Conciliation Ser vices Branch is to ad minister The Labour Relations Act as it pertains to Conciliation Services and labour

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 management contract disputes and other related situations. The services of conciliation officers are also pro vided under The Public Schools Act. when there are teac her-s chool boar d labour disp utes. Specific objectives are: 1. To meet and consult with both labour and man ageme nt upon request and to assist in bringing about a contract settlement when the two parties have reached an impasse in direct negotiations; 2. To researc h. advise and direct labour and man agement to areas of compromise in order to reach accord; 3.

To promote good relations in both the public and private sectors of industry through conciliation activi ties and personal contact with the parties; 4. To encourage industrial harmony and peace in Manitoba. Staffing - Last year there were seven staff person years; we are reques ting eight staff years for 19 82-83, an increase of one. The additional staff will be a new conciliation officer position, increasing the staff complement of conciliation officers to five.

It is anticipated that the workload of the branch will increase sub stantially due to an increasing number of collective agreement expirations. as well as a large number of sign ificant and sensitive bargai ning situations. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairma n, would the Minister care to expand on those last remarks. the reasons for the increase and the addition of one staff man year? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. just for example, Mr . Chair man. in 19 81 there were 352 collective agreements expiring.

In 19 82 we're looking at 503 and the concilia tion staff is spread very thin right now. If we are going to get any kind of preventive conciliation done, we really do need that additional person. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I note for the record that one of the conciliation officers. I believe. is Mr . Davage who was commended by the parties to a labour disp ute on a settlement that was just very recently arrived at. I just for the moment can't remember the names of the . A MEMBER: The Free Press. MR. MERCIER: . .. the Free Press. How could I forget the Free Press? Mr .

Chairman, does the Minister care to make any comment on workload other than the fact that there are an additional 15 0 collective ag reements expiring in this year? Does he anticipate. I think as the Presi dent of the Manitoba Federa tion of Labour indicated that at the end of 19 81, that this would be a difficult year in labou r-ma nagement barg aining. MR. SCHROEDER: I can't say that I'm anticipating that it will be a more difficult year per ag reement.

I think that there will be percentagewise, probably a similar number of ag reements that will be difficult to renegotiate and that additional number does put an awful lot of pressure on the branch and on the officers assigned. I do have some numbers in terms of 19 79-80 as compared to 19 80-81, which would indicate a signifi cant increase in ass ignments. For instance, total as3ignm ents in 19 79-80 were at 15 2 and in 19 80-81 there were 19 9.

Now ma ny of those were solved without any kind of a work stoppage but the conciliation officers were asked to come into school board disputes, various private company dispu tes. etc .. and empl oyees involved there was very little difference there. Man days lost in the two years. although I'm not sure that it's significant, were 72,000 approximately in 19 79-80. as compared to 12 2.000 in 19 80-8 1. Now I'm told that we're expecting in 19 82-83 to have more assignments than in the previous year. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would just raise the su bject.

It would seem to me that to bring in a new conciliation officer. that it would be very difficult for a person new to the field to be of a great deal of assis tance without a number of years of experience and training in this field. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chair man, the me mber referred to one specific member of the staff and we certainly feel that we do have an excellent staff. We've also in fact at a meet ing I had recently that was attended by people from the Federa tion of Labour .

Chambers of Commerce, other trade union groups and the Man itoba Chamber. we were told by all concerned that what they would like to see when we add people to our staff are people who come from the business. who are either union negotiators or management negotiators, rather than bringing in greenhorns whom we have to train from scratch.

If you bring in someone from either side of the table into the conciliation service, they understand the role and function and the difficulties that are involved, the stresses and strains. the politics within the union and within management and the many contingencies that arise during collective barg aining. So, I think the sug gestion was a good one and we would plan to take that up. 2021 MR. MERCIER: Has this new position been filled yet? MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. MERCIER: Has it been advertised? MR. SCHROEDER: No. MR. MERCIER: I have no further questions. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Tha t's 2. (f) ( 1) Salaries- pass; 2. (f)

(2) Ot her Expenditures-pass. Res olution No. 90, RE SOL VED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $4.69 1, 800 for Labour and Manp ower. that's for the Labour Div ision, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 83. No w. we move on to Man power Division. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, I don't have an

opening statement for the depar tment. I do have for the first component, Research Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can go on to 3.(a )

(1) Salaries. MR. SCHROEDER: Okay. The Research Branch is responsible for conducting studies and ana lyses in the Labour and Man power areas for the department in supp ort of effective planning, management and pol icy development. The ma in objectives are: 1. To identify current and future ma npower needs in Man itoba for programs su pporting provincial eco nomic growth and human resource development policies; 2. To assess the effectiveness and impact of man power programs operating in Man itoba; 3.

To provide informa tion and assistance required for the pla nning, development and funding of man power programs in Man itoba; 4. To analy ze the impact of federal and provincial labour and manpower policies; 5. To conduct studies and provide informat ion on the labour market and the labour relations climate in Manitoba; 6. To provide research and technical assistance to the department and other organ izations. Staf7ing, there is no change proposed. It is at 16 .5 staff perso n years.

Developments during the year, first of all, there were in-depth reports prepared on labour market topics of special interest, including characteristics of Man itoba unemployed; women in the Manitoba labour market; target group assessment of the core area of Winnipeg. There was work done to identify manpower requirements and training needs, including in-depth assessment of occup ational requirements and shortages in specific industries. There was work on occupational outlook and related informat ion for career couns eling , which was continued.

The performance and funding patterns of federal and provincial manpower programs were assessed, including reports on activities and funding levels within Man itoba. A compr ehensive inventory of fed eral and provincial prog rams and services was pre pared and opera tional assessments of various Man power Division programs were undertaken. The Branch assisted in the development of management information systems for program managers, includ ing computerized management inform ation systems for the Fire College, a fire inspec tion system and a student placement system.

Work was increased in the area of policy analysis, including analy sis of federal task force reports on unemplo yment insurance and labou r market devel opment in the '80s. I believe that was known as the Dodge Repor t. Preparation of the provincial su bmis sion to the parliamentary task force, Empl oyment Oppor tunities for the '80s, and a backgr ound paper on the impacts of technological change. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairma n, the Minister referred to the core area and I was tryi ng to find an area that would relate this depar tment's relationship to the 29 April, 19 82 Core Area Initiative because of his reference. Could I ask him, under this heading, to outline his depar t ment's activities in the Core Area Initiative? MR. SCHROEDER: The depar tment was asked in the early stages of the progr am to prepare an analysis of who the unemployed were in the core area. MR. MERCIER: I think the Minister must have more informat ion than that. MR.

SCHROEDER: There was par ticipation from the departmen' on a number of the committees that were active in the preparation of the core area plan. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairma n, is the Minister or his department not involved in any specific programs? MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman, not at this stage. MR. MERCIER: Does the Minister anticipate being involved in any specific programs over the course of the Core Area In itiative? MR. SCHROEDER: There could well be a function when specific plans are undertaken. It depends on what kind of occupations people are looking for and that type of thing. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Cha irma n, there is a significant amo unt of money in the Core Area In itiative that is assigned to employment and training programs. A su bstantial portion of it will come from the Federal Government, but as I recollect, there is about $10 million that was assigned to the Provincial Govern ment for employment and training programs. Is the Minister or his dep artment not involved in that or is it being administered by the Core Area Initiative Policy Group and the staff that they built up? 2022 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairma n, the government involvement at this point with respect to ma npower training and development, the input is comi ng from the Department of Educa tion. The commun ity col leges group and, I think, there's a fellow by the name of Peter Ferris who is in charge of the progr am from the perspective of the Provincial Government. We do expect that at some stage when that de velopment comes further along that we will be involved. The Research Department is keep ing an eye on it. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I noted that recently the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister of Edu cation, issued a press release responding favourably to the degr ee of success to which graduates of Red River Com mun ity College had entered the job market. As part of the Core Area Initiative, within the Logan Avenue area, there is a proposal to do what really amo unts to an expansion of the Red River Com mun ity College in that area. Is the Minister supp ortive of that project? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, jus t step back a little bit.

That particular release was one that was fairly important to Man itoba because we are in the

. . Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 midst of negotiations with the Federal Government dealing with adult occupational training. There has been some sug gestion on the part of federal officials, and I think the federal task force bore it out, that there were some areas of the country where commun ity colleges wer en't providing the kind of service that we have here.

It is an excellent service and, while the Federal Government is talking about cutting back in some areas, we are hoping to make the point that Man itoba's college system, as most other western provinces, is in fact ser ving a very important need out there, Le. stude nts who go through that system do have employment waiting for them on the outside. Now in terms of my specific supp ort for the expan sion of this type of program to the core area, I like the concept I would have to see exactly before I would say yes or no, exactly what the final proposal will be.

As the member knows it was ju st fairly recently that the Core Area Initiatives group hired a ma nager to get things mo ving a bit MR. MERCIER: That's true, Mr . Chairman, that the general ma nager was ju st hired but there has been a lot of consideration being given, I hope over the last five months looking at the specific projects to get under way and I mus t say I'm a little su rprised tha t the Minister and his depar tment have only been involved to the extent that he says they have. The Department of Labo ur and its ma npower training function has a great deal to offer to the Core Area In itiative.

I hope that he would perhaps find some time to look closely at what is occurring in that prog ram and to perhaps have his department participate to a greater degr ee than they have already. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, I don't see any thing wrong with having the depar tment participate fully. I would point out that the basic manpower training in the province, the largest number s, come through the Red River Com munity College system. Certa inly, where there is any kind of apprenticeship training or that type of thing, we will be very directly involved.

It is my view that until we come up with more spe cific proposals as to what exactly it is that should be going on in there, the dep artment wouldn't be of any great assistance. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chair ma n, I note that one of the objectives of the branch is to identify current and future ma npower needs in Man itoba to assist pro grams su pporting economic growth. Could the Minis ter expand on the research that has been done in that area, and in particular the areas of economic growth that they are looking at? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Chairman, the department works with the Federal Department of Ma npower as well in su rveyi ng areas of need and, in fact, there's a feder al-provincial committee that is involved the Manpo wer Needs Committee - and it comes under Feder al-Pr ovincial Training Agreements, however. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, where does the Minis ter see economic growth occurring in the province over the next four or five years? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, that is, I would su gge st, an area for the Department of Economic Development.

The Department of Economic Devel opment as indicated by the Minister is developing a specific thrust in terms of where the economy appears tu be going, where we can help with it. I would expect that there will be a continued increase in the man ufacturing sector in the province. I would expect that there will be continued improve ment in the agricultural sector. I would expect that if we get some power sales with the Western Inter-Tie, aluminum, etc., we might get some more construction activity. If interest rates improve, then certainly there will be more residential housing activity.

There's a number of areas that we're hoping over the next five years to have some improvements on. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, in this section, is the Minister or his department had occasion to look at certain recent sug gestions for review of the Unem ployment Insurance Commis sion policies? MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman. I haven't had that opportunity. MR. MERCIER: Does this Research Branch consider a provincial position on those matters? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, the provincial branch has examined it and I have looked briefly at the results of that exami nation.

It was a few months ago that I looked at it. It indicated that one area that was of concern to me and would be of concern to the honourable member is, that Man itobans pay a sub sta ntial portion more into that fund than they get out of it. The proposed changes are going to put Mani toba in a position where we will be worse off with respect to that particular fund, rather than better off. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that point doesn't really bother me very much.

If we're lucky enough to have a higher percentage of employment in Man itoba then the fact that mone y is going out of the province to other areas where there is a hi gher deg ree of unemployment, it doesn't bother me that much. 2023 I do want to say to the Minister thoug h, that I might raise a particular instance.

I had occasion to speak to a constituent a few weeks ago who had worked all of his life with a mun icipal government who, getting on in years and has a health problem and has been see ing not only his family doctor but a special ist, had applied for Unemployment Insurance Commission benefits and received I think, one cheque; then received nothing but these green cards that the com puter spits out and has had a great deal of difficulty with the bu reaucracy in the Unempl oyment Insu rance Commi ssion; a man who I think is entitled to receive those benefits having worked all of his life and was forced to go on welfare because of this system that is being used.

I sug gest to the Minister it might be worthwhile for him to have this area of his department or another area look at that system because it seems, at least in this occasion, a person who has worked all of his life is deser ving of receiving the benefits and I gue ss he's run afoul of the compu ter or someth ing, but he's been

Thursday, 29 put in a very difficult position. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I understand the Federal Task Fo rce recomm ended some simp lifica tion in streamlining of reg ulations. In these kinds of problems, I believe all elected memb ers probably are aware of some simi lar situations in the past, they will probably occur in the future and it is unfortunate. I should say though in defense of the present sys tem, I found that when I have referred people to their Memb er of Parl iame nt, their Memb er of Parliament seems to have been able to do a fairly good job.

They seem to have a direct line to someone in the dep art ment, etc., and things can get moving fairly quickly, but that doesn't help all those who don't think to reach their MP or MLA. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 3.(a)

(1) Salarie s. The Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Und er this particular division, I wonder if the Minister could bring us up-to-date on the apprenticeship program. Is this the

section we would discuss that under? MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman, that comes under 3. (d). MR. CHAIRMAN: Memb er for Minnedosa, did you want to reserve your question for 3. (d), or did you pass? 3. (a )

(1) Salarie s- pass; 3.(a)

(2) Ot her Expe nditures-pass; 3. (

b) Federa l-Provincial Train ing Agreements. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I won't have a long opening state ment. The head ing says it all. This branch deals with Federal-Pro vincial Trai ning Agreements. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, there was an Adult Oc cupa tion Training Act Agr eement entered into for a three-year period, from April 1, 19 78 to March 31 , 19 81, which is extended to March 31 , 19 82. Will that be extended a further period of time? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, we are in the pro cess of negotiating that one. It has been extended for now until Aug ust 31 st, 19 82. MR.

MERCIER: It has jus t been exte nded for that period of time? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, it was extended at the end of March to that time. MR, MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is it the Minister's intention to attemp t to exte nd the agreement further past October 31 st, 19 82? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we would like to get a mu lti-year ag reement on it, so that we can plan our programm ing accordingly. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b )

(1) Salaries-pass; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 3. (

c) Im migr ation and 19 82 Settlement Services:

(1) Salaries. Mr. Minister. MR.

SCHROEDER: The objectives of the branch are to promo te immigr ants with an effective attainment of self-sufficiency and ability to participate fully in the social and ec onomic life of Manitoba by increasing responsiveness and accessibility of existing services; to ensure orientation language and citizenship mate rials are developed and co-ordinated; to participate in the developme nt of a migration data collection sys tem and ensure that ongoing population data analysis is carried o'l; to provide consultation advice and financial sup port to the voluntary sector for the deliv ery of settlement services.

One of the most significant activities of the branch is the preparation of the Annual Im migration Level Paper which is subm itted by Man itoba to the Federal Immigr ation Minister under Sect ion 7 of The Federal Im migration Act. This document provides the basis for determ ining the numb er of immigr ants that Can ada will accept in the forthcoming year. With respect to staffing, there were seven staff per son years approved in 19 81 -82. We are ask ing for an increase of one, to eight.

The additional staff person would be for a settlement mate rials officer, who will be responsible for the overall establishment and maintenance of information services of the branch. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether the materials or the proposed level of immigr ation flow to Man itoba for each year was ever made public in past years by the Ministers. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, I am told that it was made public in previous years. MR. MERCIER: Does the Minister have that informa tion with him, then? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, for the year 19 81 for Canada total I'm sorry, this is for Janu ary to September of 19 81 -t here were 93,990 people immi grated to Canada, 4,078 to Man itoba, which was 4.3 percent of total immigr ation. MR. MERCIER: Has the Minister made any proposals for 19 82? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chair man, I am told that the proposal was made in October of 19 81. The proposal was that we take ap proximately 5 percent of the total immigr ation. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, I recall there was an item that was a proposed Manitob a-Canada I mmigr a tion Agre ement.

Is the Minister considering entering into a formal agreement? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, that proposal is under very pr eliminary negotiation. We have con tacted the Federal Government with a sugge stion that negotiations beg in, but there has not yet been a response by the Federal Governme nt. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (c )(1)- pass; 3. (c) (2 ) Ot her 2024

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 Expenditures-pass; 3.(

d) Training and Development

(1) Appr enticeship. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: The Apprenticeship Program is responsible for the adm inistration of The Appr entice ship and Tra desmen's Qualifications Act, as well as The Barbers and The Hairdr essers Act. The progr am enables individuals to become trained to the level of certified tradespersons, as well as providing oppor tunities for perso ns with experience and who satisfy certain conditions to write qualifying exami nations for certificates of qualification in the designated trades.

It also maintains and upgrades the standard of services in the fields of hairdressing, barbe ring, beauty treatment and manicuring by conducting exa mina tions and issuing licenses in those trades. During the past year, increased activity of trade advisory comm ittees has aided in reviewing and updating apprenticeship training programs and in ensuring significant input from both labour and man agement in the continuing development of appren ticeship programs. With respect to staffing, 19 81 -82 there were 26 staff person years appr oved and there is no request for change on that.

The total would remain the same. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister comment on the success or prog ress of the Women in Apprenticeship Program? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, there are 23 women currently in ap prenticeship: six carpenters; two con struction electricians; one power electrician; three ma chinists; three motor vehicle mechanic s; a motor vehicle body repair; painting and decorating, one; two industrial welders, and four industrial mechan ics.

Now there are several of these people - five of them - who are currently on layoff but we hope that they will be recalle d and conti nue on with their apprenticeships. MR. MERCIER: I assume, Mr. Chair man, that the Min ister will continue that program. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes I will. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's 3(d) (1), Salaries. The Honour able Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won dered, there is an apparent lack of qualified trades men in the province in many many fields and I wanted the Minister to maybe elabor ate somewha t on the apprentice ship training program.

If we're going to meet the requiremen ts of technicians, and qualified people that are going to be needed to fulfil! all the job s that hopefully with be available in the next short while in Manitoba, it's going to take a considerable numb er of trained people, and it would appear that the apprenticeship prog ram should be beefed up consid erably now if we're going to meet that need. As I say, I speak even of the rural areas.

Qualified mechan ics and people of this nature are of very very short supply and it seems a shame if we have to go elsewher e and bring them in when there's so many unem ployed and underqualified and undertrained people within our own areas. I jus t wanted to get the Minister's enlargeme nt on the training programs that we have. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, the memb er is correct. We do have some real shortages and we have traditionally hired off-shore because we're simply not prepared to pay to do our own training. That's really unfortunate and that is some thing that has occured across Canada.

The Pro vincial Man power Ministers and the Federal Minister are in the process of working out new training agreements. The Federal Government is attemp ting to add ress the question of critical trade shortages and we're certainly encourag ing that. Her e in Man itoba the areas of shortages are in the area of heavy duty equipment mechanic s; industrial electricians; industrial instrument mechan ics; industrial mechan ics; industrial welders; ma chi nists; tool and dye makers.

These are areas where, as I under stand it, they are short across the country and there is going to have to be more direction in getting more people into these trades, into apprenticing and one of the problems we have is that we haven't been able to convince em ployers lately, and this is across Canada, to take sufficient apprentices to be able - I should n't say lately because it's been a problem all along - I don't know whether the newest program will resolve that. The one concern I have about the new progr am is that it not throw out the baby with the dishwater.

When you start looking jus t at the critical -(Inter jec tion)- bathwater, that's right. When you look at the critical trade shortages the last thing we want to do is then say well we'll take the money from existing programs and put it into these new programs that everybody's concerned about. We're concerned about the new programs but the old training syste m, as I indicated earlier, is work ing very well. It is providing training for people who wind up in the work place in jobs and I wouldn't want to tamper with that other than specific improvements.

Ob viously if we're train ing people for a job that isn't there now, that should be stopped. I ag ree with the Federal people on that. If we can identify those areas we don't want to spend the mo ney, we don't want to put young people into a progr am where we pretend we've got a job for them at the end of the line and have them trained and then only find that it's useless for their occupations when if they would have been able to get into an apprentice ship program, espec ially in the areas that I've referred to, they would at least have a trade that they can imme diately put to use. MR.

BLAKE: Yes, does the Minister have any idea of the num bers that are short, say, particularly in the Pro vince of Man itob a, of the se various trade qualifications? 2025 MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman, we don't really have the specific numb ers for shortages. We do have right now, somewher e between 350 and 400 people in critical trade skill programs in Manitoba. MR. BLAKE: Yes, it would seem odd tha t if we're setting up training programs that we wouldn't know

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 how many people would be available, or how many would require training in the various fields. So, I would think this information should be available somewh ere. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we could get it through our Research Branch. The informa tion would be availab le; I could get that back to the member. MR. BLAKE: At one time, I don't know whether it's prevailing now or not, but Man itoba Hyd ro, for exam ple, had an excellent training program and we pro vided most of all the linemen for Hydro B.C. Once we got them trained here they all left and went to B.C.

I assume that's maybe been stopped to some deg ree. It's hard to fight the climate, I know, but I would hope that those types of training programs are being moni tored to some deg ree to make sure that we have them stay in the province and at least provide some years of service to their emplo yer that trained them. MR. SCHROEDER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I couldn't agree mo re. In fact a friend of mine left the province I gue ss about 1 O years ago for B.C. because of proba bly the climate and wages. Exactly what we do about that - I don't think we can improve the climate much.

Wages is an area, well we all know that B.C. is well ahead of everybody else in the country in that area and in many other areas. This is one of the difficulties we do face. I think that we have to recogn ize that Man itoba in the last 20 years has trained people that have left the province. I supp ose the only consolation we can take on that is that we have also stolen a lot of trained people from other areas and other countries. MR. BLAKE: Well that's fine, Mr. Chairman, I guess by that he may be getting a lot more trained ones from our sister province to the west because of the . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (d )(1)(

a) Salarie s-pass; 3.(d) (1)(b )- pass; 3.(d)

(2) Canada- Mani toba NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT Agreement, (

a) Salaries. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't have anyth ing on this. MR. MERCIER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister is continuing the programs that were previously imp le mented. I think the previous Minister looked after this area quite well. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. I should explain that, Mr. Chairman. That money is in the Department of Finance under the Canada -Manitob a NORTHERN DEVELOP MENT Agr eement Programs. The 19 81- 82 adju sted vote was $1 ,392, 900, the request her e is for $1 ,482,900.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) (2)- pass; 3.(d)

(3) Selkir k Training Plant, Salaries-pass. The Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, yes the Minister should comment on that. How long has that prog ram been going now, about 10 , 11 years, 12 years? MR. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm told that the member is probably right. It would be so mewher e between 10 and 12 years. If you would like, I could give you an opening statement on it. MR. BLAKE: Wel l, you could give it to my after.

I ju st want some informa tion, I'm not going to belab our it here tonight, but I ju st would like to know how many people have been trai ned there and how successful it's been. MR. SCHROEDER: Very successful. MR. BLAKE: Are the ones being trained there going into the labour force and staying there or are we ju st running sort of a sem i-welfare shop there? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I'm told that it has indeed been very su ccess ful. It has put a lot of people who didn't have em ployment skills in a position where they have actually had work after they've finished in the year 19 81 -82.

For instance, the numb er of trainees who went on to emplo yment dur ing the fiscal year was 26 - there were 40 in the prog ram at the beginnning of the year and there were various num bers in and out - there are some who withdraw in the middle of it; there are others who don't get emplo yment. But we are told that this is one of the very best programs in terms of get ting people, who would otherwise probably not be emp loyable, into the work force, so we have every intention of continuing on with this program. 2026 MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, if someone on the staff would ju st put down some statistics along the nature of what the Minister has said from the start of the program each year as it progressed until now, that will be fine. I won't wait for that informa tion now. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) (3) -pass; 3.(d)

(4) Youth Employment Program. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. The Youth Em ployment Progr am has been revised for 19 82-83 consisting of two phases; to have the objective of stimulating the creation of extra em ployment for Manitob a's unem ployed youth. The first phase called the Career lnternship Pro gram, is designed to enrich job opportunities for stu dents by encouraging emplo yers to deve lop career related work experiences and to provide training and opportunities for specific skill developme nt.

This comp onent will beg in early in May and will run to September 3rd, 19 82 and will be open to all full-time post secondary and secondary students in Man itoba. Non-profit organizations, commun ity groups, munic ipalities and local government districts will be eligible to participate in the program. All of these emplo yers will be eligible to receive wage assistance at the applicable minimum wage for student s under and over 18 years of age, who are hired into approved positions. This assistance will be available for up to three students per emplo yer.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 As well, small busi nesses and farmers employing fewer than 1 O empl oyees will also be eligible to partic ipate. For each approved position created by these empl oyers. assistance will be provided at the rate of $2.00 per hour, regardless of the age of the stude nt. In cases where a disabled student is hired to fill an approved position, however, the emp loyer will be elig ible for the full Minimum Wage Assistance. The second stage of the program to be called the Career Exploration Program, will commenc e in November and run to the end of March, 19 83.

The focus dur ing this pha se will shift to the creation of emplo yment to unem ployed youth and will involve a simi lar wage assistance. Details are still being devel oped and will be announced later this sum mer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, is the amount of mo ney that's allocated to these programs, which I believe is $2.9 million, does that cover both programs? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman. MR. MERCIER: Mr .

Chairman, I had asked the Minis ter pre viously in the Ho use I think the day he intro duced this program, could he indicate whether there is an allocation of funds between non-profit organiza tions and private sector employme nt? MR. SCHROEDER: No, th ere isn't, Mr. Chairman. MR. MERCIER: There's no allocation? It's first come, first served? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, it's first come, first served, although we may have to put a limit on the numb ers for municipalities and universities, that type of thing, so that we don't have too many of the stu dents going into those programs.

As I understand it, there have been a numb er of people quite enthusias tic about taking up the program. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, when he estimated the numb er of the jobs to be created by the $2.9 million in his statement, was he assu ming the su bsequently announced minimum wage increase? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I should also add, that although I wasn't aware of it during quest ion period, the application forms were actually sent out yesterday and I'm hoping to have them available for distribution to the members tomo rrow.

I'm planning on having application forms, or at least a handful to each memb er of the Leg islature, as well as some informa tion with respect to where students should apply in the particular district that the ML A represents. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, could the Minister who refers to the first part of the prog ram as the Career Related Work Experience for Students, I don't think anyone on this side or any member of the Ho use is agai nst helping a student get a job in someth ing that is career-related.

I think however, the experience of all of us probably is that we were never able to get a job that related to our ultimate careers, not as politicians but as in our other vocations. whatever they may be. Perhaps one in a hundr ed or one in a thousand were ever able to get a job tha t related very directly to the career to which they aspired.

Can the Minister and I think particularly with the economy being what it is, with bank ruptcies. layoffs and with the possibility that the increase in the min imum wage may affect job prospects for some younger people - can the Minister indicate how severely or hard he will be interpreting this requirement for work related experience? Because I think the practical problem is going to be is the kids are going want a job and they're almost going to want to take any job to make some money to help them get through school in particular. MR. SCHROEDER: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, we don't expect someone to sign an oath sayi ng that they're planning on going into a spec ific career in order that they qualify. On the other hand we also expect, based on the enthusiasm with which the program has been met to this point out there - we've sent out more than 700 applications already and they're only sent out on demand - we believe there's no doub t that the uptake will be com plete fairly quickly, so then that question would n't arise. Once we've spent the mo ney, we've spent the money. MR. MERCIER: That's fine, Mr. Chairman.

I think the concern on this side will be that all of the money is used to provide young people with job s beginning as soon as possible and tha t this requirement or condi tion will not be used to reject applications when there are jobs that could be made available. My other concern, Mr.

Chairman, I think others will raise it too, is that under the programs of our govern me nt, the records that we have indicate that in 19 78- 79, there were 4,2 89 empl oyees hired; in 19 79-80, there were 3,932; in 19 80-81 , there were 4,679 and in 19 81- 82, there were 5,009 and that is confirmed in the Minister's Annual Repor t that he tabled in the Leg isla ture. All of those jobs, particularly last year, 5,009 emplo yees hired, was for a prog ram of $2.9 million, equivalent to the Minister's funds this year.

Could the Minister indicate why only 2,000 job s will be made available for young people under his program? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, I would refer the mem ber, first of all, to the 19 81 -82 Provincial Audi tor's Repor t, when he referred to the Private Sector Youth Em ploymen t Program and I quote, "The degree to which the program's objective has been achieved is virtually impossible to determ ine. Accordingly, I am concerned because it is not clear what the depar t me nt's efforts accompl ish." He goes on to say, "The audit was conducted by prog ram pers onnel.

" I'm sorry, he's referring to questioning the independence of a particular audit and he did recommend that the audit procedu res be reviewed and he was informed that, in fact. would take place. There was an input output study done, as I am told, that indicated that it was very difficult to determine how many in fact of those jo bs would have been created without that par ticular program. The concerns that he raised were such that we decided - and it wasn't solely based on 2027

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 that - that we should try to focus these summer em ployment programs. The memb er is right. Most of the time, students are happy jus t to get a job, but if in addition to that, we can also target a job which provides training, then it seems to me that we have accompl ished some thing for the emplo yer and someth ing for the em ployee that can stand that person in good stead in later life. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister then saying that these 3,000 people who will not get a job under this program, the Minister's program, who got a job under the progr am last year, he expects them to still get a job in the normal course of events with other emplo yers without any benefits from this program. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, I would expect that there will be student s emplo yed in the sum mer time as there always have been in the past.

A large numb er of stude nts in the past, were being emplo yed, not through the government program but simply out side of that program for the sum mer time and we cer tainly expect that will occur again this year. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I guess we will have to wait to see the unemp loyment statistics later on in the year. I think I fully expect that we will see those 3,000 young people unemp loyed, par ticularly in view of the economic circums tances in the province at this time.

Does the Minister have any figures which would com pare the degr ee of sub sid ization of an emplo yee under the program last year com pared to the program this year? MR. SCHROEDER: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? MR. MERCIER: Does he have any figures to comp are the degr ee of subsidiz ation of employees under the program last year com pared to this year? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, last year the sub sidy was $1.5 0 an hour. This year in the private sector, it is $2.00 an hour. MR. MERCIER: I think other mem bers have some questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate if the cost-per-s tudent emp loyed is up 15 0 percent? That is, we are getting as I understand it, only 2,000 jobs, 2,000 students emp loyed for the same amount of mo ney as was expende d last year for 5,000 students being emp loyed. The Minister has indicated part of the answer by sayi ng that the sub sidy is now $2.00 versus $1 .50 which accounts for 33 1/ 3 percent increase in cost per student. Wh ere does the rest of the money go in the program then? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, the other portion of course was that those work ing for municipalities, etc., have their wages sub sidized up to the minimum wage, which will be part of the time at $4.0 0 an hour, part of the time at $3.55 an hour for those over 18 . MR. FILMON: So, on the private sector side, the sub sidy is $2.00 an hour and on the public sector side, it's up to $4.00 an hour. Is tha t what the Minister is sayi ng? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, and there was also one other difference and that was that last year's program was an average of nine weeks' appro val and this progr am is for 12 weeks.

That, itself, increases the numbers significantly. MR. FILMON: Is 12 weeks the minimum? MR. SCHROEDER: No, that's an average. MR. FILM ON: Was the 9 weeks an average or a minimum? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, it was. MR. FILMON: Then, it may well work out that MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we give time for the Chair to recogn ize you because you are being taped by Hansard. The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Sorry, Mr. Chairman. I don't want to rush the Minister or Hansard Services. If the program allows for up to 12 weeks, then it is conceivable that the average length of employment time will be less. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Chairman, it allows for up to 16 weeks, but the average we expect to be 12 on this progr am. Jus t in terms of those jobs, we don't know exactly what the num bers will be for 19 81, but for 19 80, for instance, although the preliminary figures showed in the area of over 5,000 job s - and it was a significantly large numb er - but there were 3,950 for which claims were paid. The same thing will happen for 19 81. We do n't have the numb ers there now, but there were appr ovals for over 5,000 stude nts in 19 81 , jus t over 5,000 students.

Pay ment, if it's based on the history of that program , will have been for under 4,000 students. MR. MERCIER: The annual report indicates that the figures that show - and the Minister's annual report would be signed - shows numb ers of emplo yees hired, 5,009 in 19 81; in 19 80, 4,6 79. There is an aste risk which says: "These figures are estima tes. These claims for reimbur sement are still being received from the emplo yers for 19 81." There are no asterisks beside the 4,679 empl oyees hired in 19 80. In any ehs hired in 19 80.

One question which I want to ask the Minister is, what OOO youtis the division in the $2.9 million pro gram? How much is for this first phase this sum mer ? 2028 MR. SCHROEDER: I believe there was $500,000 for the other program. MR. MERCIER: $500,000 is for the second com po nent? For the $2.4 million this sum mer? MR. SCHROEDER: I'm sorr y $733, 000 for the

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 second program. MR. MER CIER: For the $2. 1- some million for the first phase this summ er, how ma ny job s does the Minister estimate will be created of the 2,000? He estimates 2,000 for the total program. MR. SCHROEDER: About 1, 500. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, as we go on the fig ures get worse.

With the distinct possi bility -a nd I've asked the Minister earl ier today to review the impact of the increase of the minimum wage particularly on the yo ung people, and I hope he will do that - but ju st being out there on the street talking to people, parents are already te lling me tha t their children are being turned down for job s at various establish ments because of the increase.

When you combin e that with the economic distress of the province, and now we see a red uction of 3,500 job s for yo ung people in this progr am comp ared to last su mmer, it is a very very bleak situation for yo ung people in this province, Mr. Chairman, and I don't think it's some thing that we on this side want to accept. The Minister seems to be imposing, for whatever reason I don't know, some ideological position that the previous program apparently involved the private sector too much, because it was a comp lete program in the private sector.

It shows in com parison to being a much mo re efficient job creation prog ram for yo ung people with the 5,000 job s created and here we have a situation this spring and this sum mer with much worse economic conditions. I'm distressed, Mr . Chairman, to hear the Minister estimate there are only 1, 500 jobs available under this progr am because of the conditions that he has imposed and the amount of monies he's made available.

That means there are at least 3,500 yo ung people who are not going to get a job, plus the numb er of others who won't be able to get a job because of the worse economic situation in Manitoba. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, the member in his statemen t makes the assu mption that the former pro gram was one which created that numb er of job s rather than and there is no evidence as the auditor found that it in fact created those jobs - that was a concern to us and we wanted to make sur e that a program that we set up would create those job s.

I should say as well, that we are monitoring the situation - I should n't probably use the word ··moni toring" because it annoy ed me over the last few years when I was in opposition when I heard that every thing was being mon itored but we sincerely are looking at what is going on and have no intention of standing idly by if there is some thing serious happening out there to our yo ung people this summer or next winter. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I think I have to reiterate the concern of the Memb er for St.

No rbert in this regard, tha t if the Minister is sa ying that he has no concern for the ability of the private sector to em ploy these student s regardless of the availability of the progr am, agai n having spoken to emplo yers and stu dents who were empl oyed under the program last year, I have to say that he's wrong, that many of the jo bs were in effect created to fit in with the program because people felt that there were things that weren't essential to be done in the business but because of the availability of the program they would cost-share it with the government.

Now the Minister is saying that he'd rather have the government spend the full shot in a significant portion of the jobs that he's creating so that it is sure that the job s are new ones that are being created because they are being created by municipalities and other public sector emplo yers and that way he's paying vir tually the full shot - that is up to the minimum wage - in order to ensure himself that they are being specially created to take advantage of this program and there fore, we're get ting far less total students hired and payi ng more for it for some reason that doesn't appear to be very defensible.

MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Chairman, I ju st want to say that there was a sugge stion by the memb er that jobs were created to conform with criteria of that progr am. There were no criteria, i.e. if you applied you were entitled. So I ju st want to make it clear that that was where we felt we could improve the program. MR. FILMON: I sugge st the major criteria was that it was cost-shared with the government. The other question that I have is, what has the limit of 1 O empl oyees in a firm got to do with the likelihood that the emplo yment is going to be career-related or any other factor in the whole mix of events? MR.

SCHROEDER: It has absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm sure that larger firms could indeed, give as good training as the small firms.

It was a decision that we took in order to ensure that the jobs would how ever, go to small business as opposed to larger busi ness - and I recognize that you can have some con cerns with 20 or 30 empl oyees that are not either very profitable or considered to be very big - but it was one of the criteria we chose. 2029 I should say that in 19 81, without that criteria, ju st to allay the fear somewha t of the memb er and I believe the Memb er for La Verendrye had raised con cerns that maybe there wouldn't be people applying from this sector that had under 10 emp loyees - 87.3 percent of the people working under this prog ram last year were working for organizations with less than 10 emplo yees.

MR. FILMO N: I'd ju st add to that discus sion, Mr.

Chairman, that it's my experie nce and from deal ing with a wide range of emplo yers, there is less likeli hood that time will be spent by emplo yees in small firms training staff, than in larger firms where there is a broad range of people and the likelihood that people can be assigned to train sum mer staff or additional staff, or we have some experience with Work Intern ship Programs we find that the larger organ izations can afford the time of staff to do some training, whe reas the smaller ones invariably ju st give them menial tasks and say, here, go do some filing, go do that.

They don't have time to assign.

When you only have five emplo yees, if one is spend ing time assisting, training experience of a newcomer, then that's 20 percent of your staff power that's lost to training and it's mu ch less likely that in a small organi zation there will be any training function or factor involved;

whereas in a larger organization of 20 staff, if one perso n is devoted to assisting and training and orienting a new perso n, then that's only 5 percent of yo ur staff complement and I would sug gest that's going to work against one of the goals of the program. MR. SCHROEDER: Well I don't know exactly how to respond as a former person out there, who was eligi ble for the programs as an emp loyer. I tend to think that small businesses can indeed provide good train ing.

I should say that because of that and because of the fact that we used a previous government program about four years ago, I'm ju st convinced that the audi tor is right in the sense that there are a numb er of people who are hired through these programs, who would have been hired anyway. I know that when our firm hired an individual, it was done before I was in office and it was done on the bas is that we got some thing that went - I would have to say that it all went into our pockets.

You know , it was a benefit to the em ployer and I gue ss there's nothing wrong in benefiting empl oyers, but I couldn't say that there was any thing socially useful about giv ing us a little mo re money, by subsidizing the wage of one of our emp loyees for a few months and then afterwards, of course, that em ployee I believe was put on full-time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for LaVerendrye. MR. RO BERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): That intrigues me. Is n't there some thing on the form that says he wouldn't have normally hired this perso n if it hadn't been for this program. MR.

SCHROEDER: Not on that particular form, no. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the Commit tee what the turnaround time on the approvals of the applications is going to be. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, once the application come s in, it shouldn't take mo re than three days to be sent to be assessed. MR. BANMAN: But I gue ss the question I'm ask ing, once the prospective emp loyer sends in the applica tion form, how long will it take until he gets a yes or a no. MR. SCHROEDER: The emplo yer should know whether or not the position has been approved in three days. MR.

BANMAN: Another thing that I want to ju st men tion briefly here is, I'm glad to see the Minister is moving on this, because we're reaching the eleventh hour of many of these things, but I just want to reiter ate what the Member for St. Norbert was saying.

I think this year you 're going to see a record numb er of high school stude nts and university stu dents that are going to be looking for job s and I speak now - I know in my particular area, I know that in the small business and I'm under 10 , but I know the numb er of people that are coming through the door looking for jo bs and we've never had as many people coming in.

One of my comp etitors down the street put an ad in the paper for a wash rack - and I'll say 'person' here, because that's what they have to advertise it these days - and after 37 applications coming in two days, they had to stop tak ing name s because they could n't keep up with it. So, what I'm sayi ng to the Minister is there is a number of f<:: ctors that he will have to look at very seriously. He is red ucing the numb er of potential job s for stu dents in Man itoba by a sum up to 3, 500 jo bs, as the figures point out from last year.

You've got the worst economic conditions; you've got another prob lem which is going to hit him and that's the minimum wage. I sure urge him to get that study going to see how it's going to affect part-time emplo yees, because I know, speaking of the gas oline business, the margins that the dealers are faced with, they're pumping on very tight mar gins and normal ly where you would have had two people on the pump s, you're going to try and get away with one, because you ju st can't afford to have two people on there.

The margins ju st aren't there for gas oline and you can talk to many of the operators and the trag ic thing of this is that we're playi ng right into the hands of the larger oil comp anies, because what you're going to do is you 're going to set up more and more self-serves and close a lot of the smaller retailers.

That's a fact of life and having been in the business all my life, I guess some people would say you shouldn't speak about because you 've got a conflict because you're in that business, but I think that is one area you have to have a very close look at, because what's going to happen is you're going to see a lot of these small stations close down because they're going to move to self serve, and it's been pointed out every area that you have that happening, is you lose a numb er of small entrepreneu rs, as well as you cut back on the numb er of man hours involved in that particular field of endeavour.

So, I ju st caution him.

I hope he watches this very closely and is ready to jump in with another program or reinstate the old program as it was before, because I'm telling him that there are a lot of people out there looking for work and there are a lot of high school kids, as well as university kids, that need these part time sum mer job s, and that are going to be anxiously trying to find some mo ney so they can put thems elves through school in the following year and have some spending money. 2030 To clos e it off, I ju st want to say that we have to appreciate also that when we're looking at career related things, and I understand from the Minister's com me nts, they won't be too sticky on that, because that I think is some thing that would hurt the program.

You've got people out there like tourist camp opera tors - one called me today: he's wondering what's happening. It's very hard to get someb ody who's going to be working at a tourist camp where it's career-related and here is an individual that will not hire somebody if this program is not in place. So, I

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 have a couple of exam ples without belabo uring the point that much longer. I ju st want to say that I hope that criteria isn't adhered to very st ringently because it's sure going to cut out a lot of the smaller entrepreneurs who are looking at this program, look ing at having some bene fits in their operations, so that they can continue to service the public in those areas. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River East): Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the memb er has indicated that there may be some concern about that specific empl oyer, the tourist camp oper ator.

It may be that someth ing can be worked out for that type of occupation. I would n't want to comment on a specific case, but as I said previously, we are under taking to watch the program and the youth unem ployment rate and we are not going to allow some kind of a disaster to happen in the province. MR. BANMAN: I ju st caution him and I know he's aware that the fine tuning of this program will have to be done within the next month or mo nth-and-a-half because you can watch the program and if we're into the mid dle of June or mid dle of July, you won't be able to fine tune it after that.

He's going to have to watch it very closely over the next couple of weeks to see what is happening and make sure that, if he is going to make some changes, they are made very quickly to accommo date the stude nts out there that are looking for emplo yment. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chair man, I ack nowl edge that if we don't make decisions fairly quickly that the sum mer goes by and if there is a necessity then I would expect that other decisions will be made shortly. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3. (d) (4) -pass; 3. (

e) Em ployment and Youth Services,

(1) Admini stration. Mr . Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: There is a wide range of services here. First of all, there is an Emplo yment Services Office which is a centralized stu dent summ er emplo yment registration and referral service. It also offers a job -search workshop and placemen t service for high school stu dents seeking part-time emplo y ment dur ing the school year.

The STEP -in-Govern ment and Northern Summ er Educ ation programs, summer emplo yment prog rams that provide a me aningful career-related work expe rience; Hire-a-St udent Job Centre program which provides a summer job placement and referral service for youth in rural and northern communi ties in the province, and that is the group to whom the stude nts will be applying out there in your communi ties; the Volunteers in Public Service Progr am esta blishes volunteer componen ts in selected provincial depa rt me nts and agencies in order to su pplement and improve the quality of services; Man itoba Northlands Travel Prog ram awards travel grants to school groups from northern and remote com mun ities to encourage ed ucational travel to other Man itoba locations and I should say on that one that we have received a large numb er of good com ments from school divisions on the program which is an ongoing program.

There were 27 staff perso n years last year and we are not requesting any changes. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. No rbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, last year I believe the rates of pay for stu dents emplo yed for the summe r within the Provincial Government were increased significantly. Do the Estimates include any further increases this year? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chair man, there is an 11 .5 percent increase this year. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, I assume the Minister is continuing the Hire-a-St udent Job Centre program in some 42 centres throughout the province? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, we are.

That is wh ere the students out there will be able to apply for the various jo bs, including the lnternship Training Program. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, last year I believe the number of stu dents participating in the Man itoba Quebec Work Exchange Program was increased from two to four. Is there any further increase this year? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, inflation has increased it to ten. MR. MERCIER: Is the Minister continuing the Inter national Student Exchange Progr am for economics and com merce students? 2031 MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. MERCIER: Has the numb er of students increased in that, Mr. Chairman? MR.

SCHROEDER: No, it's the same as last year, six. MR. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, under the STEP -in Governmen t Program in 19 80, I believe, 50 disabled youth were placed in government positions and an attempt was made to increase that last year to a min imum of 75. The Minister might be able to advise me of the exact numb er which were placed and the numb er he expects or hopes to place this year. MR. SCHROEDER: We are hoping to place 85 this year. Last year, there were 82. MR. MERCIER: And the Volunteers in Public Service Program is continuing? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, it is. MR.

MERCIER: Is there any increased funding for that? MR. SCHROEDER: It is being maintained at the same level.

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 MR. MERCIER: No further questions. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3. ( e) ( 1) (

a) Salaries-pass; 3.(e )(1)(

b) Other Expenditu res-pass; 3.(e)

(2) Youth and Student Em ploymen t-pass; 3.(e)

(3) Canada Manitoba NO RTH ERN DEVELOPMENT Agreement pass; 3.(f )

(1) New Careers: Salaries. Mr. Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: The New Careers Branch pro vides training and job placement to trainees emp loyed in government departments, publ icly funded agen cies and in the private sector. The branch acts as an intermedi ary agenc y providing a bridging service for unempl oyed and unskilled persons who require tem porary income su pport, skilled training and job placement generally. Jo bs available for trainees are mainly of a parapro fess ional or technical nature with the length of the training ranging from six mont hs to two years.

Aca demic upgrading is directed to the needs of the par ticular job and the requirem ents of the empl oyer. In turn. the training agency empl oyer is comm itted to hire the trainee upon successful completion of the program. Staffing: last year there were 64 staff person years, of which 12 were reg ular staff positions and 52 were for trainees. We are requesting the same numb er for 19 82-83. New Careers North last year had 73 staff person years, of which 9 were regular staff positions and 64 were for trainees. We are requesting the same numb er for 19 82-83. There were some new developments in 19 81 -82.

There were some new procedu res imp lemented including a percentage split of funds among publicly funded government depar tment and private emp loy ers. Funds for these three sou rces of em ployment bod ies have been divided approxi ma tely one-third each. This ratio responds to and reflects the applica tions received by the branch. We will continue to allow for flexibility in order to be able to respond to requests from emp loyers and applicants for training.

Im pleme ntation of orientation workshop s for supervisors of trainees while training on the job with eventual emplo yee organ izations has proven suc cessful and these will continue. We have successfully launched another training service program as a result of negotiations by the Dako ta-Oj ibway Tribal Council with the Provincial Department of Commun ity Services and Correct ions and the Federal Department of Indian and No rthern Affairs to establish an Indian Child Welfare Agency.

New Careers was author ized to provide a special pre service training prog ram for 17 Treaty Indians to train as child and fam ily service worker s. New Careers was also authorized to develop a two-year on-the-job and classroom training program to follow the pre-service program. On July 23rd, 19 81, representatives of Canada, Manitoba and the Dakota-Oji bway Tribal Council par ticipated in an inaugur al ceremony at which Man itoba officially recognized the new Dakota-Oji bway Child and Family Service, the first of its kind in Canada. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chai rman, on that last topic, as I understand it the 15 workers received some three- month pre-service training and that this is a two-year program training workers for the Dakota-Oji bway Tribal Council and that will be continuing. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. MERCIER: Is there any involvement of this area, Mr. Chairman, in the Core Area Initiative? MR. SCHROEDER: No, there is not. MR. MERCIER: I take it generally, Mr. Chairman, that the program"> which had been em barked upon partic ularly last year, are mainly being continued and there is no real change taking place. MR.

SCHROEDER: That is correct, there is no pres ent intention of the change in the direction. MR. MERCIER: I have no further questions. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3. (f) (1) - pass; 3. (f) (2) pass; 3. (f) (3) -pass; 3.(g)

(1) Career Resou rce Centres: Salaries. Mr . Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, the centres focus on five areas to assist individua ls to make career choices. There's dissem ination of informa tion; testing and assess ment; counselling; referral to training after determ ining which programs would be the most effective in assisting in the attainment of an individu al's career goals; then of course, referral to the approp riate agency for placement. There were a total of 14 staff person years ap proved last year and we're not as king for any changes. 2032 MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, can the Minister explain the increase in the expenditures from $1 90,000 to $250, 000? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, the major reason for the increase is that the total provision for the Dau phin Centre is included in the South request, while in '81- 82 about half of the total for Dau phin was provided under Career Resou rces North. If I could ju st add - if you look at the next appropriation it's down from '81-82 to '82-83. MR. MERCIER: Again this is a continuation of last years program ming. MR. SCHROEDER: That's correct. MR. MERCIER: There's no further questions. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(g)(1 )- pass; 3.(g) (2) pass; 3.(g) (3) -pass. Resol ution 91 , RE SOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $10 ,755 ,600 for Labour and Man power Division, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 83-pass. No.4., Acquisition/Construction of Phy sical Assets. Mr . Minister. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, we're

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 requesting $1 5,000 for com pressed breathing air sys tems: $56, 700 for fire-t raining com mun ications equipment; $1 3,300 for welding testing equipment, for a total of $85,000. The compr essed brea thing air systems are to compl ete the program to provide all mu tual aid districts with compressed breathing air systems for refilling firefighters brea thing apparatus. The fire-training communic ations equipment is to provide assistance again to mu tual aid districts in obtaining consistent and compati ble technical com munications equipment.

The welding testing equip ment is additio nal equipment for the welding testing center to accomodate the increasing numb ers of welders being tested. Yes, that's it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No.4. -pass. Reso lution 92, RE SOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $85,000 for Labo ur and Man power Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of Mar ch, 19 83-pass. Item l(

a) Ministers Salary-pass. The Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILM ON: Mr. Chairman, I have a question of the Minister on behalf of the Memb er for La Verendrye, who I think is in the other comm ittee. He is concerned about making available an option to union mem bers who, because of their religious beliefs, do not wish to have their deductions made for union dues but rather that these dues could, by mutual agreement between themselves and, I su ppose, the em ployer have an equivalent amount paid to some recognized charita ble organ ization such as the Red Cross or other organizations.

He believes that such legislation exists in other jur isdictions and wonders if this Minister has any intention to bring forward such legislation. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any present intention. I would be willing to listen to people who had subm issions to make on it. It 's an area that I believe has been batted back and forth in Mani toba over the years. Quite frankly, I'm not quite sure exactly what the legislation is right now, but I do believe that there are provisions.

I'm told that, in fact, individuals at the present time if they appear before the Labour Board and satisfy the Labour Board that, in fact, there are conscientious, religious reasons, grounds for not wishing to pay the dues that they can be exem pted and paid to some other institutions on behalf of the member. MR. FILMON: Well, perhaps I could have the Memb er for La Verendrye further contact the Minister ju st to clarify it. I believe that he does have some people on his constituency who are interested in such provision and perhaps he could get the details from the Minister as to how they might apply to this. MR.

SCHROEDER: Certai nly. I do understand from staff that at least in one case recently this was done. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for St. No rbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, firstly I want to thank the Minister for his short answers - unaccustomed as he is to short answers. Secondly I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that in reviewing these Estimates and see ing the continua tion of a numb er of programs started by the previous Minister, I think indicates that the previous Minister of Lab our did a good job in his four-year term in this post, when we see the success of so many of the programs as they effect the working men and women in this province. We have seen the success of the payment of Lost Wages Program, Mr. Chairman, and particularly when we see up to Ma rch 31s t of this year there is some $1 57, 000 paid out to emp loyees who were unable to recover their wages from their emplo yers.

So that is a very significant program to the individuals involved. We see other programs like the Women in Appren ticeship Program operating successfu lly and being continued. There is no question that the previous Minister was very cognizant of the needs of working women in this province and his adminis tration and the continuing Estima tes this year bear that out. On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, this Minister of Labour has a very difficult job.

Before I get to that I ju st want to say, I indicated at the beginning there will be legislation coming on perhaps some controversial su bjects and I didn't want to spend too long on that and mer ely repeat a debate that will take place later and I don't intend to comment any further on that. We'll have to deal with that legislation when it comes forward.

But on the other hand, this Minister is a part of a government that has experienced 13 8 percent increase in bank ruptcies in this year compared to the beg in ning of last year - extremely high unem ployment levels - and he is going to have a very difficult job because of those economic circums tances. That is why , Mr. Chairman, we're particularly distressed I think, at the information we've received tonight on the youth sector em ployment program.

The fact that under the funding that's been provided by the Minister and the requirements that he has imposed on the prog ram will only mean that there will be a ma ximum of some 1, 500 jobs for you ng people in the province this sum mer compared to 5,000 last sum mer , and considering at the same time the eco nomic circums tances which I believe will result in less em ployment opportunities for young people, it is a frightening prospect for young people this sum mer, Mr.

Chairman, because there is going to be, we sus pect, a real lack of opportunity for job s for you ng people, and that is a very serious situation. The Minister wouldn't admit it. He prefers to believe that these job s will be created in any event. I su ppose then, Mr . Chairman, we'll have to wait and see what the job statistics are this summ er, but I hope that I am proved wrong.

But I think because of the limited value of the prog ram he's brought forward, there will be very high unemployment among young people and I hope he will, when he sees that happening in the statistics, will realize the errors of his program and will move as quickly as possible to correct them so that the same numb er of jobs as has been provided under our programs in past years will be provided for you ng people this summ er. Mr. Chair man, I think that is the main area of criti- 2033

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 cism over the short term. I hope the Minister will also accept my sug gestion that he undertake a thorough and com plete review of the implications of increasing minimum wage to resolve the controversy that exists over that program and to determ ine if it is possible whether or not it will result in a loss of em ployment. There have been al legations that some 1, 200 jo bs will be lost for yo ung people, or people in the food and beverage industry, we hope that is not the case.

But I think it is important that that kind of thorough study be und erta ken with re present atives from both emplo yee and empl oyers in as much depth as possi ble to once and for all ascert ain the implications and the different ways in which the minimum wage can be increased. witr a minimum effect on em ployment opportunies, again particularly for young people. So. Mr . Chai rman. I do thank the Minister for his openness and his frank answers to the questions and we will be looking at the unem ployment statistics.

Ho pefully his position will be borne out, but we warn him that we don't think they will be and tha t we were going to see, accord ing to the information that's come forward, I believe anywh ere from 3,5 00 to 5,0 00 less jobs for yo ung people in this province because of the program that he has brought forward. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.( a) - the Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether the allocation of half his salary to the Department of Lab our indicates that he is spending approximately half his time in that portfolio? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR.

SCHROEDER: It depends on the time of year, Mr. Chairman. There have been times when I've spent 10 0 percent of my time on Labo ur for a numb er of days running, but there have also been times where for several weeks I've spent practically all of my time on the Department of Finance because there have been so many meetings, Finance Ministers meetings, the First Minister's Conference, the barg aining ses sions with MacE achen from Finance, that probably I have spent mo re time on Finance than I have on Labour up until now.

But I do expect that it will proba bly turn around and once the Budget process has been comple ted by the end of May, that probably the majority of my time would be spent from then on for the rest of the year in Labour . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.(

a) Tuxedo. the Memb er for MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman. I would like to also complim ent the Minister on his fine handling of these Estima tes. His contributions to the discussion and debate have enabled us to comp lete the Estima tes process I think with a minimum of disruption.

But I have to indicate that. as has been expr essed earlier and as he will obviously have gather ed from the tone and tenor of discussion of some particular aspects of his Estimates, I hope that in his interest. or in the interest of some slight improvement in the eco nomic circums tances, or some philosophical princi- pies that he wishes to incorporate as Minister respon sible for this depar tment, I would hope that he is not jeopard izing the real crucial concern of many thou sands of Man itoba's yo ung people who, I think legiti mately, have some expectations with respect to labour in this province and that is, that he is not in these interests - by following through on some of these what I consider to be questionable policies - he is not damag ing their opportunity to have real meaningful em ployment in this province, particularly with respect to this sum mer and in the longer term.

MR. DEPu·1y CHAIRMAN: 1. (a) -pass. Res olution No. 89, RE SOLVED THAT there be granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceeding $1 ,680,000 for Lab our and Manpo wer, General Admin istration for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. Commi ttee rise SUPPLY -HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Commi t tee will come to order. We are continuing with the Personal Care Home Program. The Honourable Minister. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, I am not going to keep this here too long.

I jus t want to give you a general idea, espec ially the rural thing, we have done the same thing with the city and also the north. The first one, I will move it a bit so you can see what it is. The first map, and I will rem ove this fairly soon, is ju st to give you a general idea. In rural Man itoba, this colour here is that it's over bedded. So, you see. but that is the acute hosp itals. This is not perso nal care ho mes, this is acute hospi tals, and this one is right on. No, excuse me.

This is still underbedded, but it is the same thing; after the progr am th ere will be some replacement but only replacement of beds, no extra beds. This one here is under bedded by only three beds though; and this one here. I haven't got the figure, that's another one that is underbedded. This is St. Annes and this is Teulon, Brandon is underbedded. I don't know exactly by how many. St. Annes is underbedded by 3 and Teulon is underbedded by I don't know how many. All the other are overbedded. That is the acute hospitals; that's not the personal care homes. 2034 I don't think that this is that serious.

If you are going to have any hosp itals at all in the rural area, well then, of course, you are going to be overbed ded, but that should indicate to you also that some of these beds now that are overbedded are being used for perso nal care beds; remember that. So. when you are talking about constructing new hospitals, we are spe nding quite a bit of mo ney in the rural area but not to construct new beds - I am talking in this field, in the acute beds - but to replace the hospitals and moder nize them and so on. Now. the yel low is the beds that you should have.

This colour again is overbedded and the blue is underbedded. -(Int erjection)- I was told I was colour blind before, I gue ss they were right, tur quoise, in betwee n. So, you see of course. you have the region here; you have Park lands, the Interlake,

Thursday, 29 April, 19 82 Central, East and West. Mr. Chairman, you see some of the areas here that have been - I know you can't all see the figures, but this at least gives you a general idea where we need perso nal care homes - and this is after the program. There are a few minor adj ustme nts. There are 10 more beds here and there are 20 less beds here, but it is still overbed ded. For instance, this one here is 97 should be the beds according to our gu idelines, there are now 10 0 and when we are fin ished there will be 12 0. This is the Virden-Reston area.

So, what we try to do, of course, by looking at this, it's not that sim ple. First of all, we had to look by regions and some regions, you would think that this one is underbedded; and then you have this one here, it seems, if anyth ing, it's overbedded and this is one of the areas - I am expecti ng a question for Steinbach any tim e now and I wasn't trying to evade the question yesterday, but I felt that we should wait until I have a chance to explain. You see , there is the region and then a smaller area and then, of course, the com mun ity itself.

The com mun ity itself, the Memb er for Rhine land was talking it would be so nice that you would n't move people around at all and that's true, but we have had this kind of direction and now what we mu st do is try to do the best we can with what we have. For instance, the Memb er for Rhineland - mind you, he caused me an awful lot of trouble, I had time to cool down a bit because I think he's fortunate that I didn't have a chance to answer him and it was 4:3 0 because I was all set.

He got me a little bit excited, but I will refrain, unless he absol utely wants to and then we will have a deba te - nevertheless, he caused me a lot of troub le because I spent the whole time, between 5:30 and now, in here looking at all the files to see, when he was on this side of the room, when he was talking about building more perso nal care home s and when he was talking about building St. Jean Baptiste and all that and I couldn't find a darn thing, Mr. Chairman. Now, the situation is difficult. St. Jean Baptiste came to me, St. Malo, Elie and they have a point. They have nothing in their area at all.

It is kind of a commun ity, when you look at the religion and you look at the background and you look at the culture and that is right, but at this time I could not accord this a priority and I will come back to - I think we can stretch things a bit when we are talking about perso nal care hom es and talking about enriched senior citizens homes which I hope will fill the bill; we will certainly look at that.

I think that we have demons trated during this debate that both the Op position and the government agree that we should look at new ways to prog ress and not necessarily be tied in the old ways and say that's the only thing that is going to function. So, in this area, St. Jean in this area, but there were too many beds in another area. Now, a danger that one communi ty like, for instance, Pe mbina that came in and they want this and they want that and they get all the places around here to supp ort them.

They say, yes, we agree to have our beds there in their reg ion, but as soon as that is billed the other group, who has already said, yes, give our beds to this area, they want to come back and say, we've got nothing and the overbedded commu nity are still coming and they say, we want to su pport them, but it doesn't work like that. It 's ju st dur ing the campai gn - this fellow wasn't elected anyw ay - he went out and we met in a certain place and he made a talk about all kinds of things dur ing the campa ign. I was the gue st, I went over to su pport him.

The first thing I knew he was making comm itments that they were going to get perso nal care homes if we were elected and, if we were elected and he didn't get his perso nal care home, he was going to resign. I ju st said, make damn sure you're elected before you resign. Wel l, he wasn't elected and that made it a little eas ier. So, you see, we looke d at the whole area. Now, to the Memb er for Steinbach, I want to explain the rationale for what happened. When we put some of the plans that we have, we have Steinbach in here. There are 10 6, it should be; they have 16 7 and they were going to incr

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-44b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 44b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	574c13681748e723392e5cf3b1dfd6a355e38645

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