Manitoba Hansard — 6 November 1989 (Sitting 65A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-65a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 6, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Today my Advisor y Council on Agri-F ood released its discussion paper on the Impacts of Change in the Method of Payment of the federal Crow benefit subsidy. I announced the establishment of this council, chaired by Dr. Bob Parker, Associate Dean of Agricultur e at the University of Manitoba, in May of this year. This paper represents their first step towards developing a provincial policy on the method of payment issue. *

(1335) The Crow benefit subsidy, worth approxima tely $700 million annually to western grain producers, is currently paid directly to the railways. The method by which the subsidy is paid, along with other national agricultural policies and programs, is under review by the federal Government. This paper, prepared by Deloitte Haskins & Sells, examines the implications of the existing Western Grain Transportation Act rate structure and the change in the method of payment.

Produc ers and their organi zations, elevator companies, municipalities, and other interested parties, will be given the opportunity to examine and comment on the discussion paper. The role of the advisory council is to incorporate these and other comments and develop and forward their recommendations for preparation of a Manitoba position on the method of payment. Now is the time to ensure that we and the producers in the Province of Manitoba have all the necessary information so that our province can best prepare itself for future discussions regarding the payment of the annual federal Crow benefit subsidy.

Release of this discussion paper is the first step. The process of open consultation has begun. Now we are encouraging farmers and farm organizations to become informed and respond and comment on the method of payment issue. Open discussion is invited, and I urge all of you to encourage the public to partici pate in this important process. Mr. Speaker, I have two copies here, one for each of my critics, which I will table today for their perusal. Thank you very much. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Certainly we are pleased to see this init iative being taken by the advisory committee to the Minister.

One has to question I would think, Mr. Speaker, whether this may not be in fact too little too late, 2527 because there has been a tremendous amount of activity in this regard by other provinces. I do welcome the opportunity to see the report from the consulting company, and certainly would support the Minister in his request that all those who are impacted by this Crow benefit change will in fact have their voices heard. It is my hope, Mr. Speaker, that their voices will be heard prior to a federal decision being made that may in fact make their input rather meaningless.

So the time is of the essence and I would hope that Manitoba would take a very immediate and pro-active stand to ensur e tha t Manitoba is adeq ua tely represented in the decision that is finally made on this very important issue. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, there were two things, two very important matters, that the federal U.S. Government stated would be achieved by the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement under agricultur e.

One was to get rid of the transportation programs in Canada, which they felt would greatly prejudice the American agricultural sector, and the sec ond area wou ld be to dismantl e th e marketing boards in the agricultural sector in Canada. Since the time the Free Trade Agreement has come into play, and passed in this country, we have oats that have been taken off of our marketing board. We have had unfavourable decisions to our marketing boards in this country, and now we have the other part of the U.S. agenda coming in pl ace to take away transpor tation programs in this country. Mr.

Speaker, we do not need advisory committees. We need a backbone to start standing up for rural and western Canada in this cou ntr y with the federal Government and the U.S. Government. INTRODUCT ION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have, from the Garden City Collegiate, fifty-three Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. McCormack and Mrs. Cairns. This school is located in the constituenc y of th e Hono ur able Mem ber for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I wonder if I might have leave to revert back to Tabling of Reports. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to revert back to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? (Agreed) Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speake r, I would like to table a document entitled: French Langua ge Services in Manitoba, which has been adopted as Government policy.

Monday, November 6, 1989 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Goods and Services Tax Government Position Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

This is a very impor tant week for this country as the First Ministers meet in Ottawa to discuss constitutional issues, the whole issue of the Meech Lake Accord, and the state of the economy. * (13 40) This meeting is particularly important to the people of this province because we all acknowledge that Manitoba has been dealt a harsh blow by the federal Government with the closing of military bases, the termination of regional development agreements, UIC cutbacks, VIA Rail cuts, the goods and services tax, the loss of jobs as the result of free trade.

Often our province has been more adversely affected than all others. As a result, Mr. Speaker, will the Premier today outline, in the most specific of terms, exactly the position he will take with the federal Government with respect to the goods and services tax? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker , I will take the same position with the First Minister that I did as part of a communique that was signed by all Premiers at the Quebec City Premiers' meeting in August of this year, which was that we are oppo sed to the goods and services tax, and we want the federal Government to withdraw their proposal from the table. Impact on Manitobans Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , in notes released by the Department of Finance reference was made of the Conference Board analysis of the impact of the GST on Manitoba, which is ready for the First Ministers' Conference.

Will the Minister today share this information with the people of the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , that is a report to Premiers that is not mine to share. It is one that has been given to the chairman of the Premiers' Conference, who is Premier Bourassa. He has seen fit to share it with the Premiers, prior to us attending that meeting, so we all have the information available to us for that meeting. I am sure that subject to Premier Bourassa's tabling it at that First Ministers' meeting, it will then be made public. Indexing Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, indexing is an issue which this provincial Government has never addressed in a serious way with respect to the goods and services tax. Low-income Manitobans will receive drops in their rebate of 3 percent each and every year tha t this tax is implemented. Will this First Minister of our province go to Ottawa armed to fight the indexing provision, as presently outlined by the federal Government, and will he insist that in any goods and services tax acceptable to him indexing of rebates to low-income earners will be an essential part? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, let us begin by saying tha t we as a Go vernment op pose the imposition of the GST as it has been put forward by the federal Government. We want to see the federal Government withdraw it. We do not want to begin now to start negotiating a GST on behalf of the federal Government, saying that we are prepared to accept it provided that it has got all of these different things. We have said that it has to be revenue neutral, if there is any such thing. We have said that it has to be visible.

We have said that it has to protect low-income Canadians, but we have also said that the proposal that has been put forth by the federal Government is unacceptable, and we are going to fight it. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker , I am glad the Minister is going to fight it, but I and Manitobans, particularly those earning very low incomes in this province, want to be assured that this Government will stand tall on their behalf. Will this Mi nister clearly ind icate his objection to any tax imposed by the federal Government that does not have an indexing benefit for low-income earners? Mr.

Filmon: I have a little difficulty accepting the sincerity of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) for low-income people when she does not want to pass along $61 million of tax cuts, personal tax cuts, which she voted against in the last provincial budget, Mr. Speaker . The majority of those tax cuts went to low income families in this province, and she voted against it. I have great difficulty accepting her concern for low income Manitobans when she voted against those tax cuts for those very low-income Manitobans.

When she had an opportunity to do something within her control, she chose to turn her back on low-income Manitobans, and I find that to be reprehensible. * (13 45) Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the low-income Canadians and Manitobans that I am referring to do not pay income tax, but they will pay GST, and they need to be protected from that GST. Why is this Government unwilling to take a stand and defend those low-income no n presently paying taxpayers in this nation from a GST, which will not be indexed? Mr. Filmon: The indexing is there up to 3 percent, Mr. Speak er.

I presume what she is ta lking about is it is not fully indexed. I take another position, and that is that we do not like the tax at all. We think it ought to be withdrawn, and that is the position that I will be taking. 2528

Monday, November 6, 1989 Goods and Services Tax Con sumption Tax Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): Mr. Sp eaker, he obviously has a major disagreement with his Finance Minister who has said over and over again that he likes consumption taxes; that he thinks they are fair and equitable taxes. Will the Finance Minister (Mr. Manness) tell us today if he has now agreed with the First Minister of this province, and opp oses any form of goods and services tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker , I am delighted that the Leader of the Liberal Party has finally seen fit to pose some questions on this very relevant issue, given that Department of Finance staff, indeed myself, had a meeting last week where we invited Members of the Opposition into the office in which we laid before them all of the Department of Finance's working papers, indeed a lot of their I conclusions with respect to the goods and services taxes. So I am happy that her Critic of Finance has shared some of that information with her so she now can ask some coherent questions on this issue. Mr.

Speak er, let me say that there is no difference of views, between the First Minister and myself, on this issue. Let me say also I have said for the public record that given as a province, indeed nine provinces in this country that have mature consumption taxes as one of their main sources of incomes, that one would look pretty foolish in saying to the federal Government, thou shalt not have a consumption tax, because we do indeed have one here. We said though that the GST is basically and seriously flawed.

We said that over and over again, and that is the stance that the First Minister will be taking to the First Ministers' Conference in Ottawa this month. Goods and Services Tax Cost to Manitobans Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speak er, my question is also to the First Minister and, unlike the Liberals, we are not proposing any indexing of the rebates, we are opposed to the tax. We have sent 30,000 coupons and petitions to the federal Minister of Finance from Manitobans on this tax, and we are proposing an alternative.

We are proposing that $38 billion in deferred taxes, most of which are from corporations that have been created in our federal tax system over the last 25 years, with the loopholes that have been developed by the Trudeau, and now the Mulroney Go vernment, be plugged.

I would ask the First Min ister whether he has calculated the average cost per family in Manitoba of this tax-we have done calculations on those numbers, not just the cost to the provi ncia l Treasury-and whether he can confirm it at $629 per year per family, as we have alleged, and whether he will therefore take a position for a minimum corpor ate tax to the First Ministers' mee ting, rather than this insidious federal 2529 goods and services tax that is being proposed by the federal Government? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, may I say that first I believe that the number that is quoted by the Leader of the New Democratic Party is within the ballpark of information that the Minister of Finance and his officials have. It is roughly in that order of magnitude.

We have been consistent in saying to Ottawa that they ought to plug loopholes within the tax system, that there were ma ny, many schemes tha t were developed by the discredited Liberal Government of Pierre Elliott Trudeau that absolutely destroyed the credibility of the income tax system in this country, and created all kinds of -(interjection)- perhaps the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs), having taken advantage of many of those loopholes herself, wants to defend them, but I will tell you- ***** Mrs. Carstairs: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please.

The Honourable Leader of the official Opposition. Mrs. Carstairs: I would like an apology from the First Minister- Mr. Speaker: On a point of order? * (1 350) Mrs. Carstairs: -for putting on the record information which is absolutely false, and which he would not have any knowledge of in the first place. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. ***** Goods and Services Tax Corporate Contribution Mr.

Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): The fact of the matter is corporations paid 20 percent of the taxation in 1965, and when Mulroney came in they are down to 11 percent of the revenue in 1984 and now, under Wilson's own budget, they are down to 9 percent of the share of taxation in 1989. My question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is given the fact that his Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) in this Chamber said he prefers consumption taxes to a minimum corporate tax -(interjection)-the Minister from his seat -I would sugge st he should read Hansard.

I would ask the First Minister to empha size to people in Manitoba that the primary priority for tax reform in this country federally will be a minimum corporate tax not a consumption tax. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speak er, I have to rise because there was an error in

Monday, November 6, 1989 the Leader's

preamble. I never said I preferred a consumptive tax, relative to a minimum income tax. Indeed this Government is on support as requesting that all -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Finance is answering the question, as posed by the Honourable Member for Concordia? Mr. Manness: Yes, Mr. Speaker , this Government does support that all taxpayers, indeed corporate taxpayers, make a full contribution, as a relationship to their profitabil ity, to the taxpayers' coffers of not only the province, but the nation as a whole.

I can tell the Leader of the NOP that the federal Government has taken some move over the last thr ee or four years to begin to address that problem. We would agree with him that they could begin to speed that up, and we would hope particularly the financial institutions in this country will now begin to pay a fairer contribution to the revenue needs of all Canadians. First Ministers' Conference Federal Equalization Payments Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it reminds me of the Brian Mulroney debate in 1984 when we said, oh we will make them pay handsomely.

My question is again to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). The last federal budget cut $10 0 million out of our Medic are programs and cut $48 million out of post-secondary education over the next five years. The Government also cut a considerable amount of money in equalization. Will the First Minister be fighting to reinstate those cutbacks, which I believe is the insidious downward slide of our health care and post-seco ndary education system, at the First Ministers' meeting?

Is the Premier aware that the federal Government is planning, in the next budget four months from now, to introduce further major cuts in equalization to poorer provinces, or smaller provinces rather like Manitoba, and what is he going to do about it at the First Ministers' meeting this week? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Spea ker, I will do as I have done, and that is to tell the federal Government that they have a responsibility to every region and every province of the country, to the people in Manitoba, equally to the people in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes, to maintain vital services such as health care, post-secondary education and all of the other things that federal Governments have committed to in the past; including regional economic development, including provision of services to people throughout this country in the areas in which we share jurisdiction.

We will hold the federal Go vernment to that task and to that responsibility. Mr. Doer: Last year we raised the issue that this sales tax would not be revenue neutral and today the Premier (Mr. Filmon) confirmed that $629 in the ballpark per family. That is not revenue neutral. Last year we were given the same speech: oh, we will fight, we will do this, we will do that, and the tax came rolling down. Mr. Speaker, we are giving you four months notice, and we would like the Premier to stop the Prime Minister.

He is going to again cut billions of dollars out of the economy of Atlantic Canada and western Canada in major cutbacks. We will have no Medicare left. We will have no post-secondary education left. We will have no equalization left, if you let this Prime Minister. * (1 355) I would ask the Premier what specific action plan will he take to the First Ministers' meeting four months before the federal budget is tab led again so he can actually stop the Prime Minister for once, instead of just complaining about it. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Sp eaker, the gr eatest thr eat to Medic are and socia l prog ramming would be the irresponsibility of people, such as the Member for Concordia, making statements of that nature, or the Party that he represents in Ottawa, that as spendt hrifts have us dump hundreds of millions and hundreds of billions of dollars that the economy could not afford and drive this country into ruin whereby then we could not support social services. The fact of the matter is we saw what happened to services in this province as a result of the debt that was driven up by the New Democrats.

The fact of the matter is we will commit the federal Government to stand by their responsibilities that they have in all areas, health, education, social services, regional development and the areas that are the jurisdiction of the federal Government. Red River Commun ity College Student Affairs Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, we know that on June 26, 1989, the advisory committee to study the community colleges held its first meeting.

We are anxious to hear of the recommendations outlining the most appropri ate organizational operating models for our three community colleges and their satellite services. The observations of this committee may well merely duplicate the previous Chamber of Commerce study, but we are anxious to see what the recommendations are, although we have heard that there are piecemeal, capricious methods attem pting to solve the pro blems already. Will the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) tell the House why he removed the acting vice-president of student affairs from Red River Community College, removed him from his job last month, yet he still occupies his office and still receives his salary with no apparent duties assigned to him? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, first of all, let me say that I did not remove the vice-president who was responsible for student services at Red River Community College.

The individual occupied an acting position, and certainly it was within the purview of the president of the community college to make changes where he sees tho se change s are fit. That is part of giving the 2530

Monday, November 6, 1989 community colleges their flexibility and that is what the role and responsibility of the president is. It is not my role to remove a member who is in an acting position from his role. Indeed the individual in question is now performing other duties at the community college, and in fact is going to be moved into the area of PACE where he will be doing work as is going to be assigned by the PACE ADM. Mrs. Yeo: Mr. Speaker, how can the president of the community college, and the vice president of academic affairs, be expected to take over the role of student affairs?

How can they maintain neutrality, given that their first priority is academics and their second priority is administration? Is there not a conflict of interest? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, once again the Member for Sturgeon Creek is wrong in her assumption and her information because the duties for student affairs have been assumed by one of the vice-presidents, and clearly there is no conflict of interest in the vice-president assuming that responsibility.

Once again that is a duty that is assigned by the president of the community college, and certainly I am not going to interfere in overriding a responsibility that is really due and is a credit to the president of the community college. President Reporting Mrs. Iva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, who gives direction to the president of the community college? To whom does the president report, Mr. Speaker? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Well, if the Member for Sturgeon Creek would take a look at the chart she would find out that the president of Red River Community College or Assiniboine Community College or Keewatin Community College report to the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Post-Secondary and Adult Conti nuing Education Division. Churchill, Manitoba Rental Uni ts Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnks ter): Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Housing. In the mid- 1970s, MHR C built the Tundra Block Rental Complex in Chur ch ill.

It was then leased to the federal Government who in turn rented it out to the federal employees. The federal Government has gi ven notice tha t effective April 1, 1990, they will no longer be renewing that lease. The reason given was that federal jobs have been transferred out of the province over the past few years. Mr. Speaker, what compensation has MHRC received from the federal Government to help cover the future operational costs of the 42 units of the Tundra Block? * (14 00) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I will gather up the specifics, give him the 2531 totals, and I am sure we will be going into Estimates short ly. At that time I will give him the list, and I will supply him with all the up- to-date information. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker , again to the Minister of Housing. The operat ing costs of Tundra Block are estimated to be approxima tely $300,000 a year. This cost should not have to be picked up by the province or MHR C alone. Will the Mi nister of Housing negotiate with the Conservative Government in Ottawa for a cost-sharing agreement to this particular project? Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, in the procedure our negotiations are not with the Conservative Government. They are with CMHC on cost-sharing arrangements on all our blocks and all our projects. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I have a supple mentary qu est ion again to the Min ister of Housing. This Government has decided to take over the operation of the late Jack O'Connor's apartment complex. What is this Government intending to do with these 20 rental units and how much money has been lost thus far in tha t particular com plex, this com plex located in Churchill also? Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Sp eaker , as th e Me mber appreciates, in the Town of Churchill in particular MHRC controls most of the rental units. We felt tha t we accomplished to supply the people in Churchill with proper housing. As I mentioned to him earlier, there are specifics in regard to this and I will give him those totals when we sit down at Estimates. It would be easier and probably better to put them on line at Estima tes and I will make sure that he has all the figures. I will give him the complete background on what our cost figures are from our financial experts and I will give him all those cost figures at Estimates time.

Pit Bull Restrictions By-law Amendments Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). It concerns last week's vicious attack by a pit bull terrier on nine year-old Candace Allard. I know that we were all sickened by the brutal attack and also sickened by the possibility of other children being at risk. Mr. Speaker, in January of 1988, the City of Winnipeg introduced by-law changes designed to curb the rise in dog attacks, but the amended by-law did not either include a ban on pit bulls nor did it have a serious heavy increase in the restrictions.

Would the Minister of Urban Affairs, in his deliberations with the City of Winnipeg and the City of Brandon, recommend a by law that would require increased dog licence fees for the animals that would act as a disincentive, liability insurance in the amount of half a million dollars as part of their homeowner insurance, and the requir ement that these dogs be muzzled when walked and kenneled with roof and lock when they are in their yard.

Monday, November 6, 1989 Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): First of all, Mr. Speak er, we have to remember in this legislation, it is up to this legislation to draft enabling legislation so the City of Winnipeg and another city like Brandon to operate. If we are now going to be the final appeal mechanism for everything down at City Hall, why did we go through all the municipal elections and the 29 councillors that we just elected last week? Pit Bull Restrictions By-law Amendments Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr.

Speaker , I think that we are concerned not just for the children and the citizens of Winnipeg, but throughout the province. My question is to the Minister of Rural Development. Would he consider providing the municipalities with a draft by-law that would increase the restrictions and give the same protection to children and adults in the towns and villages as we need in the city? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker , it is certainly something that I would like to dis cuss with muni cipal organi zations and th e municipalities to see what their reaction to this would be.

Candace Allard Surgery Costs Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Health. I wonder if the Minister of Health would indicate to us that all cosmetic surgery and reconstructive surgery that will be required now, or perhaps five or even 10 years from now, by Candace Allard, will be fully covered by the Health Services Commission. Hon. Donald Orchar d (Minis ter of Heal th): Mr. Speaker , I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that will be done. That is the policy of this Government. I believe that has been the policy that has been in place for a number of years.

Those unfortuna te accidents will not be at the expense of the individual. Off-Road Vehicles Act Medical Submissions Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Mr. Speak er, on July 26, 1989, the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr . Alb ert Driedger) annou nced that remote communities will be exempt from The Off-Road Vehicles Act. My question to the Minister of Hig hways and Transportation is this: when he int roduc ed these amendments exempting age restriction and the use of helmets, was this decision based on medical statistics or other studies that his department had conducted? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Min ister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , when we came forward with the exemptions for the remote commun ities regarding The Off-Road Vehicles Act, I had three of my colleagues, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings). and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), the four of us actually met and we discussed this at length. We had grave concerns about it and part of the reason why we have made that exemption was because of the problems in applica tion of the legislation. It was very difficult.

We ran into some serious problems there. However, I might indicate, Mr. Speaker, that since that time, we met with the MMA and have discussed the program. The process that, possibly together with my colleagues, we are looking at doing a training program so that we can probably develop a scenario out there that would be acceptable to the people in the communities. Age Restriction Amendment Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): I appreciate the Mini ster sayi ng tha t a tra ining prog ram will be conducted, the question being, when is this going to be done? My first suppl ementary question is to the same Minister. Dr.

Hasselback, who is a general practitioner at the Hudson Bay Medical Group at Hudson Bay, Saskatchewan, in his report, "Accidents Involving Off road Vehicles in the Northern Community", which I will table for the Minister, states that children under the age of 18 accounted for 45 percent of the people involved in off-road vehicle accidents. My question to the Minister is: will he now introduce an amendment to this Act placing an age restriction in the operation of off-road vehicles in these remote communities for the protection of our children? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): First of all, the Member does not have to table that report because I have a copy of that. I would lik e to also indicate we have much mo re information than the Member is supplying or trying to suppl y tod ay. We have gone extensively into this information. We know of a situation between Bakers Lake and Eskimo Point where there have been statistics brought forward in terms of what has happened. The problem that I indicated before is a matter of applying the legislation to the remote communities.

We are consulting with the chiefs on this aspect of it to see whether we can develop safety programs to make the awareness of the communities and the people involved. Certainly safety is a major concern. We want to do it in such a way that will be acceptable and be meaningful for the people in the remote communities. Mr. Mandrake: Again, reactive as opposed to being pro-active. Mandatory Helmet Amendment Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): My final supplementary is to the same Minister.- (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. 2532

Mr. Mandrake: Native children accounted for 93, or 13 percent, of the hospital admissions even though they constituted only 4 percent of the provi ncia l population. Forty percent of the injuries were head injuries, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Minister is, now will he reverse his decision, to implement the use of hel mets for these childr en in these remote communities? Hon. Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker , in our discussion with the MMA, one of the problems that we were discussing was how to get factual information forward from the various hospitals that we have in the North in terms of establishing how many accidents have basically taken place because of using off-road vehicles. We have statistics as to how many children come to hospitals. We do not always know, we do not have reports in terms of what is the reason for their appearing in the hospitals. We are trying to establish jointly with the MMA, a system of doing this kind of track ing. *

(1410) Mr. Speaker , the suggestion of reversing something at this stage of the game is not there because we are looking at ways of improving the legislation that we have and looking after the safety of the people up north in a way that is going to be acceptable to everybody. Winn ipeg Education Centre Con struction Delay Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Mr.

Speaker, the Winnipeg Education Centre has over the years trained literally hundreds of Natives, visible minorities and adult special needs students to become teachers and social workers in the inner city of Winnipeg. This Minister in his wisdom has chosen to del ay, perhaps stop construction of a new Winnipeg education centre and a housing component with a total value of approximately $3 million. Can the Minister of Education explain why he is not supporting the Winnipeg Education Centre and why he is delaying unnecessarily this important project for the inner city of Winnipeg? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): I am very happy to be able to rise on that question because certainly over the last number of years we see that the Winnipeg Education Centre has provided a very important function for many of the residents of this province, but I must say that the former Government never did a review of the Winnipeg Education Centre to see whether or not the programs that were being delivered were effective; whether the programs that were being delivered should be expanded; whether the programs that were being delivered should be built upon, Mr. Speaker .

When we came into Government there was a proposal to build a new Winnipeg Education Centre without any studies of any kind being done to establish whether or not the programs there may need to be expanded. So therefore, we have launched into a study to ensure that in fact the kind of centre that is going to be built is going to meet the needs of the people of the inner city in the best way possible. Mr. Jerry Storie {Flin Flon): I recently spoke to the Winnipeg Education Students' Association and they know this review is a sham. It is an attempt to withhold support.

On August 2, in reply to a letter to me, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) said this review, this sham, was going to be completed by the end of the summer. Will the Minister now table the results of that study? Will he provide that for the Legislature and the people of Manitoba so we can come to our own conclusions ab out the success of the Winn ipe g Education - (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, once again I am very happy to be able to rise on that question, because when we started the review there was a reluctance on the part of the Winnipeg Education Centre people to share information with us. It was obvious that Members of the third Party were trying to influence the Winnipeg Education Centre perso nnel from withholding information from us.

I am happy to say that once they realized the information we were trying to obtain was going to do nothing but to help establish better programming in that area they were happy to comply with the requests that were being made by the task force, and the report will be ready very soon. Housing Complex Construction Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I do not think anyone can blame the students and the faculty of the Winnipeg Education Centre if they do not believe this Minister is there to help.

My question is, can the Minister of Education today announc e, or ind icate, to this Cham ber tha t the Winnipeg Education Centre facility and the housing component will be constructed in the coming year? Can he indicate today whether that will happen? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, it would be silly for me to announce anything today when I do not have the final report in my hands. I have to tell you that I have seen some of the preliminary findings of the report.

I am very encouraged at the posit ive things that the task force has found, and I am looking forward to announcing the findings of that report very soon. Group Homes Staffing Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson). The Wiens Report, which was commissioned by this Minister, spoke of many problems in the group home 2533

Monday, November 6, 1989 system for the mentally handicapped. It spoke to poorly trained staff,. alarmingly high tur nover of staff and very poor wages which resulted in staff leaving their jobs every two to three months. A priority of this Government and this Minister, by her own admission- Mr. Speaker: Is there a question here, please? Ms.

Gray: My question is, given that this Minister has placed a priority on the stabilization of the residential care system, can the Minister indicate to this House today how this will be accomplished when the group home operators are indicating today that the staffing component in group homes is chaotic, resulting in client risk? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The Member should be aware that last week I announced a $2 million increase actually amounting to $3 million when you consider initiatives that will start next week. We are starting on the process of stabilizing that whole area.

Client Safety Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speak er, given that I met with the residential service providers, who as well have seen that announcement, can the Minister indicate to us-again she has put more resources into a program and obviously it is not addressing the problem- Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have a question? Kindly put your question now, please. Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister indicate to us why she has been putting resources into a program, which has not been addressing the problem, and why she still has group ho me operators toda y, even after the announcement, who are very, very concerned about the client risk? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The funds that were injected into the system are designed to help the very problems that the Member is mentioning, also the training that has been initiated this year.

Whereas everyone would like more money, we feel this goes a long way to addressing the long held problems of those organizations. Policy Breach Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a final supplementa ry to the same Minister. Can the Minister indicate to us what she plans to do to take corrective measures about the polic y breach where she kno ws group home operators are forced to use food and program money to pay their staff more than minimum wage? She is aware that is against policy. Can she indicate what immediate steps she is going to do to correct that? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): As I will repeat again, the funds that have been injected into the system are designed to help some of those very issues that the Member speaks of, and the boards decide what salaries the employees will receive. Parent -Child Cent res Funding Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): The situation facing parent-ch ild centres is getting more serious as each day goes by. They have now received information that they are not eligible this year for compensatory education support.

They have also been turned down by their bridge fu nder s sinc e th e two Min isters responsible did not contact them with any assurances. My question to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) is, is she prepared to give parent-child centres an assurance of long-term involvement on the part of the provincial Government so the interim funding, bridge funding, from other agencies can be guaranteed at this time so these centres have a future beyond November 17? Hon.

Charlo tte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The Member calls these funders "bridge funders." These were the initial funders of these parent-child centres that are under question. My department had not directly funded those centres. We have no money in the budget for these centres. Core Area Initiat ive were the primary funders, and it is the feeling at present that after review, perhaps these centres should really be seeking compensatory funding from the Department of Education as the other parent-child centres in the City of Winnipeg do. Government Involvement Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns): Will this Government get involved to ensure that these centres do not close their doors and this valuable service to families staying at home with their children is cut off? Will this Government get involved? Regardless of the history, regardless of the funders, will she now make a commitment? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The departments, both Education and my department, have been involved in discussions with the funders of these particular centres in trying to encourage them to fund these centres till some other arrangements can be made. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Will this Minister take some action involving this valuable service to try to change the perception that this Government is anti-family in its policies? Mrs. Oleson: I utterly reject the Member's insinuation that this Government is not interested in families. Unfortunately these centres were not the responsibility of my department. They were funded by other agencies, and we are asking those other agencies to continue to fund them. Group Homes Meeting Request Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): I have a new question to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson). Can the 2534

November 1989 Minister indicate to us if she will immediately meet with the Residential Coalition of Service Providers to sit down and rationally discuss the funding allocations in regard to group homes, because this particular group is very, very concerned that we will have another tragedy in a group home because of the staff turno ver? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): My staff have met consistently with that organization to discuss the priorities for the service to mentally handicapped people in our province. I see no problem in meeting with them myself, I have met with them before.

They do continue to meet with staff and make them aware of the problems. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): May I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Ellice have leave to make a non-pol itical statement? (Agreed) * (14 20) Ms. Gray: It gives me great pleasure this afternoon to recognize that November 6 to 12 is Manitoba 4-H Week. The 4-H organization has long been a vital and progr essive force in rural Manitoba for some 76 years.

Having grown up in rural Manitoba, 4-H certainly offered me and other youths opportunities for personal growth and development. Not only does the 4-H and youth pr ogram teach leader ship skills, parli amentar y procedure, public speaking and organizational abilities, but this program affords youth the opportunity to explore many crucial issues facing our province and our country. The symbols of 4-H -He ad, Heart, Health and Hands-and the accompanying 4-H pledge signify the spirit of the 4-H Program.

In honouring this special week I would be remiss if I did not recognize the many hours of dedication and commitment of the 4-H volunteers, whether they be parents, leaders, junior leaders, local business people, and the 4-H staff such as specialists, home economists and agriculture representatives, it is their dedication -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am having some difficulty in hearing the remarks of the Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: It is their dedication and timeless effort that has made the 4-H Program one of the most flourishing programs in this country.

As a final message to all 4-H members, 4-H volunteers and staff we hope they celebrate this special week with their various club events. We hope they spread the word about 4-H throughout their communities, and we hope they remember that the work of the 4-H Program can only contribute to a better province and country. Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono ur able Minis ter of Agricultur e have leave to make a non-politic al statement? (Agreed) 2535 Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speak er, I would also like to rise and pay tribute to the 4-H participants and the 4-H leaders in this province.

As everybody well knows, the 4-H movement has been around for a long period of time having celebrated its 75th anniversary last year. It has involved many participants in the youth area. In this province at this time we have a little over 5,000 4-H members and about 2,000 4-H leaders. Those 4- H leaders make a major commitment to helping our youth meet the challenges of today-today's society and train them for being leaders of our community in the future. Mr. Speaker, we are pleased to have this week as 4-H Week and that the Member saw fit to recognize that in this House. Thank you very much. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for the Interlake have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): As well, Members in the New Democratic Party wou ld like to take this oppor tuni ty to pay tri bute to the tho usands of Manitobans who both are participants in the 4-H Program in the various areas, the leadership, especially the volunteer leadership at the community level, and of course the resource personnel in the area of staff from the Department of Agriculture and other staff in the Department of Health.

To all those groups who really make up the nucleus of our future leadership in rural Manitoba and in many small commun ities, we as we ll want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all their efforts and wish 4-H, for Hands, Heart, Health and Head, a future that is filled with growth and oppor tuniti es for our young people. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, it may be somewhat unusual but I would also like to make a non political statement on the same issue. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Flin Flon have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr.

Storie: I want to thank the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) for raising this issue. Many of us obviously had received notification and were aware of this important event, or series of events actually, and as someone from rural Manitoba- An Honourable Member: Your calf ran away on you. Mr. Storie: The Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) was obviously at my first fair. The calf ran away on me. The experienc e was nonethel ess one tha t was worthwhile. I know many of my friends who were involved in 4-H activities over the years look back on those moments with a great deal of fondness.

The message we should bring as individual Members is that certainly for rural Manitobans, but not exclusively

Monday, November 6, 1989 rural Manitobans, the 4-H has been a remarkable organization in terms of the development of the talents and the abilities of young people in rural Manitoba. The experiences they have gained from them have ended up, I think, contributing to the life, and even the political life, of our municipalities, our towns and our villages throughout Manitoba.

We all join in recognizing the efforts and the activities of 4-H, and credit should be given to the thousands of people who volunteer their time in this organization, like many other organizations, but the impact should not go unnoted on rural Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker , pursuant to Rule 65(6.3), I am seeking the consent of the Assembly to modify the sequence for the consideration of the Estimates outside the Chamber for next week in order that the Estimates of the Department of Housing precede the continuation of consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. This change is required in order tha t the Minister of Health (Mr . Orcha rd) may attend to important Government business outside the province.

I should note, Sir, that the remainder of this week the Committee of Suppl y outside the Chamber will continue with the Department of Health and this change is only for next week. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): I would like to just say one thing on this. We are prepared to give leave to accommodate the Minister of Health making this trip. We have certainly been willing to give leave to accommodate others, the Member for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) who was away last week, and in fact a similar leave was given to one of our Members.

We do have a concern, however, and that is the Capital Estimates in Health have not yet been before us. There have been some serious concerns that have been raised about that. I understand the Minister of Health is prepared to deal with that this week, so we would be quite supp ortive of this change. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson, on House business. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker , this matter has been discussed between House Leaders.

We in the New Democratic Party have taken the same position in regard to Estimates we took earlier in the Session in regard to the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger), and indicate that we cannot support the change midstream in Estimates as we did with the Minister of Highways and Transportation earlier. We feel that the Health Department Estimates are probably the most important item that we should be dealing with at the current time. We wish to proceed with them next week as is standard.

It is the option of the Government to call only one committee or to call Bills if they do not wish to deal with that. It is their option. We regret to indicate that we cannot support any change in the order of the Estima tes tha t was previously agreed on for this partiqular case. Mr. Speaker: Obviously there is no leave to change the sequence in the order in which the departments are to be brought forward. The Honourable Government House Leader, there is no leave. House Business. Mr. Mccr ae: Mr.

Speaker, did I hear correctly that the Members of the New Democratic Party are going to deny leave for this to happen? Mr. Speaker: There is no leave. Mr. Mccrae: I did hear correctly that the NOP have denied us leave? Okay thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought I did.- (interjection)- I just wanted to make sure I could believe what I was hearing in this House, Mr. Speaker. * (14 30) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majes ty. MO TION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to He r Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Roch) in the Chair for the Seniors Directorate; and the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. * (14 40) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HEALTH Mr.

Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): I would like to call this committee meeting to order to discuss the Estimates of the Health Department. When last we met we were discussing item 2.(

b) Communic able Disease Control, 2.( b)( 1) Salaries, $7 15,000.00. Shall the item pass-the Member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson, when I was in committee last, I raised a number of questions in terms of sexually transmitted diseases. I would like to shift to the other communicable diseases for which this

section of the Department of Health has a number of programs in place. I am not sure if the Liberal Critic had raised some of these issues as I had to leave unfortunately a few minutes early from the last time. I would like to get into some of the detail in terms of what probably can best be described as vaccine prev entable illne sses and some of the cu rrent 2536

November 1989 immunization programs that are in place to deal with some of these particular illnesses. In particular I am dealing with the DPT, Diphtheria, Pertussis and Tetanus Program. This is an area I know in the past where there has been only one case of dipht heria I know, 1987. Perhaps the Minister can provide an update in regard to that . Of course, this disease can be fatal; in fact, the case in 1987 was fatal . It is also one of the diseases that can readily be prevented by immunization.

In terms of pertussis, better known I guess as whooping cough, there were 28 cases I know in terms of 1987, and one of the factors that have been indicated as being the reason for its persistence in Manitoba is because of the lack of a thorough immunization in Manitoba. In fact, immunization rates as I understand it have declined in regard to a number of other areas. Tetanus is also another factor in this particular area.

My understanding is essentially dealing with -I think we all know what tetanus is-something that is not a communicable disease perhaps in the traditional sense, but something that can be caused by contamination, by a contaminated cut for example, entering the blood stream. I would like to ask the Minister what the experience has been in terms of these three particular areas, what the current immunization program is, and what the percentage of immunization is for these th ree diseases in Manitoba, diseases or illnesses I should say, because a couple of them are really better described as illnesses. Hon.

Donal d Orchar d (Min ister of Healt h): Mr. Chairman, I have to ask my honourable friend, pertussis is one, diptheria? Mr. Ashton: And tetanus. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that is the DPT Vaccination Program which is available all in one and is available to every child throughout the province. What is happe ning-and my honourable friend is probably leading to a recent newspaper

article indicating an outbreak of whooping cough in the southwest region of the province, and an apparent reticence on the part of parents to have their children vaccinated because of some fairly wide-spread concern over the vaccination process, and its potential effect on children, in other words, adverse reaction effect on children. As a result, we have had approxima tely 100 cases of whooping cough in the southwest corner of the province, or in the province, and the majority of them, I think it is fair to say, out of that sout hwest corner.

That follows on numbers for '86 that my honourable friend has of 70, and '87 of 28. In 1988, I simply do not have that number close at hand but we will provide it. Mr. Ashton: What information can the Minister provide the committee in terms of the current status of DPT immunizations, because I know one of the concerns that has been flagged in the previous years is the fact that outbreaks of these particular illnesses are readily preventable. The Min ister indicated a very recent example of where there was a particular outbreak, one of the more severe outbreaks in recent years.

I am just wondering if the Minister has conducted any review of the current status of immunization programs and, since they are obviously not at the level that they should be, given the outbreaks of these th ree different illnesses, what action will the department be taking to improve those immunization programs? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, before my honourable friend makes the link that he may well be wanting to make in terms of the outbreak and the immunization program, let me indicate to my honourable friend that for complete immunization for pertussis, it requires four separate vaccinations over a period of 18 months to achieve immunization status, if you will. A number of the whooping cough cases have been in children under the age of one year where that complete vaccination has not been possible to achieve. It is not necessarily link ed to no vaccination but rather incomp lete vaccination. Mr.

Ashton: Is there any indication of the extent to which there has been a drop-off? Presumably full immunization would be 100 percent. Are there any statistics indicating the extent to which there are people, children in particular who have not been properly vaccinated for DPT? If it is not 100 percent, what level of immunization are we dealing with? Mr. Orchard: I am informed over 80 percent. Mr. Ashton: What is the department's analysis of the other percentage, the people who have not had the full immunization for their children in particular?

Is it because of lack of availability, is it lack of information, is it parental choice? What are the factors behind the 20 percent of people who are not having this vaccination for their children? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that is what I alluded to in my first reply. It is in the majority, not exclusively, but in the majority I think it could be attrib uted to parental reluctance because of some very high profiled negativ e public ity about adverse react ion to the vaccination process.

We have even had a resolution I believe currently on the Order Paper to that effect in the House right now where there are some serious concerns expressed by some parent groups. That concern leads to some confusion, no doubt, in the parents' minds as to whether it is worth the risk, and some are choosing that they would not use the DPT vaccination process for their children. That is primarily parental reluctance that is the something less than 20 percent who are not achieving vaccinated status. Mr.

Ashton: I realize the parental reluctance factor with any immunizations because I think everybody is aware of the fact that there are side effects. There can be serious complications as a result of a number of immunization programs that do exist. I am wondering though what information the department is providing to parents in terms of the balance of factors because presumably it has been departmental policy, it has been 2537

Monda� November 6, 1989 provincial policy for the last number of years that the benefits outweigh the risks of immunization. I am just wondering if the statistical background, the health factors have been-t hat information is being properly provided to parents in Manitoba. * (14 50) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I can provide, possibly for this evening's sitting, the fact sheet that is used by the health care professionals.

We encourage use of it by physicians and other practitioners who provide the vaccination service, so that my honourable friend knows the position and the informa tion provided by the department in terms of attempting to explain the benefit of the vaccination and the fact that it is a low-risk circumstance.

I might at this time indicate to my honourable friend tha t the dev elop ment of the MIM Syst em -the computeri zed tallying or record keep ing, if you will, of the immunization program across the province is very helpful and is of gr owing ass istance in terms of identifying those children who might potentially be vaccine-adverse reactors, and also for physicians to understand the physiological underpinnings which might cause an adverse reaction, so that they can make more informed choices with the parents and the children.

Our efforts are to point out the benefit of the OPT vaccination, but parents still have the ultimate right of choice in regard to this vaccination process for the children, and some are exercising it for whatever number of reasons they choose personally. Mr. Ashton: I apprecia te the Minister's comments and the offer of that information. I recognize it is a concern with some parents and I think our main concern should be to ensure proper information is made available. I would like to just shift, in terms of immunization programs, to the current status of the polio vaccine.

We have always been fortunate in the last number of years, I do not believe we have had a case of polio- 1987 certainly was the last report I was able to see. There was no case in Manitoba. It does exist elsewhere and I know it has been a concern expressed because of drop-o ffs in the number of people who are being immunized, that it is beginning to re-establish itself as a major health threat. It is I guess fresh in the minds of many people who in the 195 0s either suffered personally or knew of people or a family and friends who suffered from this debilitating disease.

I would like to ask the Minister, first of all, what the level of immunization in Manitoba is in regard to poliomyelitis and also if the Minister can indicate the current medical technology, the current vaccine that is being used. I know there has been development in the last number of years of an injection that can be given with OPT. I am wondering if that has been app roved for licensing yet or if the Minister is aware when that will be introduced or available for introduction? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I am going to have to either start taking poi nt-form questions because I do not remember all the questions my honourable friend asked. In terms of the poli omyelitis vaccination, I am informed that it would exceed 90 percent which is a very high rate. The recent infections apparently, the two of them in Canada, have been related to the vaccination process itself. I do not know whether that has been identified to a given procedure, process or product.

That is currently under review by the federal provincial technical advisory committee level where they are attem pting to ascertain medically the reason for. Both oral and inject ion polio vacc ine have been approved nationally and that recommendation has been provided by the Nationa l Advisory Comm ittee on Immunization, which makes the recommendations to the provinces as to which new vaccination processes are acceptable, safe and effective. Mr.

Ashton: In other words, the next step would be in terms of consideration of that recommendation in Manitoba with the possibility of introduction, is that the stage we are at? Mr. Orchard: Currently we are using only the oral vaccine and under discussion as to the implementation of the injection. Mr. Ashton: I appreciate the information. I would like to shift to another area in terms of vaccine preventable illnesses, and that is in regard to the general area of measles, mumps and rubella. Once again, the concern has been expressed.

I know that the immunization levels have dropped off allowing epidemics of these diseases in a number of areas. I am certainly aware of that in my own community, it has been a particular case in recent years in terms of measles. I would like to ask the Minister once again for the most recent information on the outbreaks of measles and the lesser but existent outbreaks of mumps and rubella that have taken place over the last period of time. Mr. Orchard: Measles, mumps, virtually no outb reak and I am informed a small outbreak of rubella in the Parklands region. That was several months ago.

Other than that we are so far in reasonably good health. Mr. Ashton: I know one of the factors presumably resulting in the reduction was the increased awareness in terms of the immunization factor following a number of outbreaks I know last year. I am just wondering if the Minister can indicate what the level of immunization is, in regard to these particular diseases. Mr. Orchard: Eighty-five to 90 percent, I am informed. Mr. Ashton: I appreciate that information.

I assume that once again information is provided to parents in this regard, and I would appreciate perhaps if the Minister could provide that to the committee this evening, because I think in the general area of immunization we generally want to make sure that information is fully available to parents. There will be some parents, obviously, who will choose not to have their children immunized. In the case of some school dis tricts that choice is really not that operational because school districts have been refusing admittance 2538

November 1989 to children who have not been immunized against measles, but I certainly appreci ate that information. I would also like to ask the Minister for an update in regard to the situation with rabies in Manitoba. I know in 1987, the most recent year I have information available for, there were no cases of rabies.

I would like to ask, however, given the fact we have a number of animal populations where rabies is clearly in existence whether there have been any cases either in 1988 or 1989, and if the Minister could provide any further information on the current risk of humans contacting rabies in Manitoba. • (1 500) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, apparently we have never had a case of human rabies in the province. That is not to say that some have not taken the treatments when they have been bitten by an infected animal, but there has been no case of human rabies.

The incidence of rabies amongst animals is no different in the last two years. There is a steady and rather, I suppo se, expected outbr eak of rabie s amongs t skunks in particular and other wild animals, but there has been no unusual incidents this year. Mr. Ashton: That is certainly a positive news item. Another question I have is in regard to hepatitis, both hepatitis A and hepatitis B. I am wondering how many cases of hepatitis A have been reported. The figure for 1987 was 160. I am wondering how many were reported in 1988, and if there is any information on 1989. Mr.

Orchard: I will have to get 1988 and '89, or '88 I think we can get those as completed figures and then we will have to get preliminary indications for '89 on year to date. Mr. Ashton: I am also wondering if the Minister can provide any information on what programs, what will the department-what this department has in terms of preventing exposure to hepatitis 8 in the workplace. That has been a focus of departmental concern in the past.

I am wondering if the department either directly or through Workplace, Safety and Health has any programs to deal both with the control or investigat ion of any out breaks of hepatitis in the work place, particularly hepatitis B. Mr. Orchard: The workp lace environ ment, and particularly the health care field, is the area tha t my honourable friend, I presume, is most concerned about and basically any incidence there is treated in a fashion of reporting and investigation and containment advices to the best and most current te chnology that is available.

I must say though that I do not think that the advice of the medical pro fession in terms of containment or preventive spread, there has not been any significant breakthroughs in terms of how that should be accomplished over the last several years. If one can say this with accuracy, the routine or the process, the policy has been effective and state-of-the art for the last number of years. Mr.

Ashton: I am just wondering if the Minister can upda te in regard to the current status of the Manitoba 2539 immuni zation monitoring system. kno w, he did reference earlier in terms of the information that was being gathered on a one of the reasons for moving to computerization, establishment of a mainframe actually from previous mini-computer system was to help deal with information in terms of immunization levels in terms of indi vidual information involving patients' as well as recording some of the adverse reactions to vaccines that the Minister indicated certainly do exist, and allow physicians to have a better information base and help professionals have a better information base.

I would like to ask the current status of the MIM S program. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, it is complete and I think it is important that we share the whole genesis of MIMS. It will only take a second to do it. MI MS was int roduced on a pilot basis in Westman and in St.Bon iface-St. Vital in 19 80.

As a result of th ose two pilot project initiatives, one rural, one urban-this is obvious-a decision was made in 1985 on the basis of the success of those to introduce the program province-wide and that since has been accomplished and as of Janu ary 19 88, the process has been completed; and MIM S, which is linked to the Manitoba Health Servi ces Commission regist ry, provides a computerized record of all childhood immunizations provided to Ma nitobans, and this information is avai la ble th rough the public health offices to all immunization providers in Manitoba.

In addition to providing a current record, MIMS also notifies parents and immunization providers of children who req uir e add itional immun iza tion. Thus , immunization levels in the province will be improved. Impl ementation as I said is complete in all provincial health regions, the City of Winnipeg and federal nursing stations. Immunization records on all children born since Janua ry 1988 and for the majority of children born since Janua ry 1980 are available. Physicians presently access the system through public health staff. In the future it may be possible for them to have direct access. Mr.

Ashton: I just have a couple of other questions in regard to some of the other roles that this particular

section in the department, particularly in regard to other diseases, meningitis for example, gastroenteritis. I am just wondering if the Minister has any statistics on the number of cases of gastroenteritis and meningitis that were reported in Manitoba in 1988, and '89 if there is any information available. Mr. Orchard: We will-do we have that here- 1988 actual, I will give you 1986 gastroente ritis, actual 1986, 557; 1987, 443; and 1988, 420; and we are projecting for 1989, 450. What was the other one my honourable friend wanted?

Meningi tis-I will give you central nervous system cases which is meningitis-19 86, 122; 1987, 90; 1988, actual cases was 61 and we are projecting 60 cases for 1989. Mr. Ashton: I would like to ask just one other question before I turn it over to the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) and that is in regard to Lyme disease. I know it has been an increasing concern. There have been

Monday, November 6, 1989 a number of outbreaks. It is a particularly worrisome disease. It breaks out in patterns. It has hit a number of small communities I know in eastern Canada and while I am certainly no expert on it I know that it has basically been transm itted by fleas. It is something that I know has been an increasing concern across the country. I am just wondering if we have had any outbreak in terms of Lyme disease in Manitoba. Mr. Orchard: In the summer of 1988 we had four cases and this summer none.

Apparently we have the right kind of tick present in Manitoba but to date there is no evidence that we have that the tick is carrying the Lyme disease and is capable of transmitting it. As of today, for instance deer hunters, I guess it is fair to say could proceed with some confidence, that the tick if even present is not necessarily carrying the disease.

That can always vary so everybody has to take due caution and care, but because of the incidents south of the border and in other provinces, particularly east of us, we are dedicating a fair deg ree of investigative effort to make sure we know if and when the infection reaches the tick population, hence the deer population in Manitoba, hence potentially to the human population. Mr. Ashton: Just one point on that and it certainly is a matter of concern. I appreciate the fact that we have been fortunate this summer from the information the Minister has provided.

But it is a particularly scary prospect in terms of with the existence of the tick in Manitoba, and I am wondering if the Minister can indicate if there is anything that can be done from the experience of other provinces to, not just monitor the disease, but prevent its spread in Manitoba and whether there are any programs that are in place that can do anything other than really monitor its existence. * (15 10) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, that is one of those diseases that we have no way of preventing its eventual progr ess into Manitoba. At least it appears as if we have no way.

The tick is here, and if the disease gets in the tick we simply have no method of preventing that from happening. The one thing we did do this summer is provide an information bulletin on Lyme disease so that if one is bitten by a tick and they develop certain-a s I reca ll, a red ring around the bite area, the encouragement is to see a physician immediately because, as with any other areas, the earlier one seeks treatment the more 100 percent curable without adverse effects it is.

That is particularly the case with Lyme disease, so we put out the information package and I will provide that to my honourable friend this evening as well, so that you can recognize, if you have any enquir ies on your own, what kind of information is available. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): The Honour able Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) has asked a number of questions on the immunization and I will not repeat the quest ions. I would like to add a few comments that I think ttle present immunization program in Manitoba is probably the best in Canada right now in terms of this program.

Each and every person is probably spreading, the parents, teachers, the physicians, all of the health care professionals, so there is less likelihood of missing any person unless they have cultural or personal reasons. Most of the people go for immunization and I think the credit goes toward Dr. Fast and her staff who have been very up-front on this issue. I think they need applaus e. I have a question in terms of, as the Minister was saying earlier, the polio vaccine is not available in the injectible form. It is available right now and it is being used in association with diphtheria and tetanus.

That is being used right now. My question comes with the influenza vaccine. Dr. Fast puts her monthly notes on the epidemiology notes in Manitoba and has indicated that Manitoba health may not be able to fill orders placed after October 30, 1988. I would just like to know why that deadline has been placed when we know that these vaccines, if they are given in time, will definitely help seniors and other people who are vulnerable to influenza and definitely help to cut out costs to the health care system. Mr. Orchard: Let me deal with my honourable friend's last issue first.

That indication was given to encourage advance ordering, simply to assure that because of the lead time from ordering to delivery that we did not run out of supp ly. There is no shortage providing the lead time for supply is given. My honourable friend is right. We are encouraging influenza shots because the degree of success is quit e high, pa rticularly in our seniors population, very effective in preventing hospital ization, et cetera. My honourable friend is right that the injectible poliomyelitis vaccine is available but what the province routinely provides is the oral vaccine to date.

In cases of request or other circumstances, the injectible is available. Really, my honourable friend is right in his first comments where he indicates the Manitoba system of vaccination is probably the best in Canada. That in

part is due to the encouragement of staff and the full kn owled ge tha t is made avai labl e to parents, to physicians, to public health nurses, et cetera, on the advantages. We are very upfront about the potential risks in certain cases because that is important for parents to know if they can recognize some potential risk factors in their own children. That is important for them to know as well.

I think that what makes it clearly the best system in Canada, is of course the MIM System because starting from that pilot project in 1980 that showed a fair degree of insight into developing a system of information tracking moni toring that now fully imp lemented is clearly the best amongst the ten provincial jurisdictions and two territorial Governments. There is no question about it. That has meant a lot of work by a lot of people over the last decade. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, my next question is in regard to the increased awareness of food sanitation 254 0

November 1989 in the food industry in situations with the general public and students. What specific initiatives have been put in place to make aware-in terms of having seminars or any ads in the paper or any other communication developed to teach the public that sanitation for food is extremely important? It can prevent a number of problems and ultimately it can save us a lot of tax dollars. Mr. Orchard: I guess the department has developed something of a pro-a ctive approach to the education process through sponsoring of seminars.

Seminars for instance for the Restaurant Association, the prepared food industry if you will, and in addition to that provides I guess equivalent to lecturing services at Red River. There are other com muni ty coll eges where food preparation is one of the training courses available. Our staff makes available information and lecture time. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister provide us the information of how many times th ese seminars are being held?

Also what is the target population, other than the institutions, and to be more specific I think the general public has to be made aware and must know that a number of problems can be saved potentially if we treat the food in the best possible way and try to prevent some of the communicable diseases. I think even the trend is very clear that some of the gastrointestinal disorders like diarrhea or vomiting or some of this stuff can be saved. It is definitely very helpful for the children and for the elderly age group. It will save us money in the long run, because it does help to teach the parents.

Also I think we could add another phase to that to teach the parent how to deal with the common things at home, like if somebody is having gastritis, how to handle it at home rather than running to a doctor or phoning emergency all the time, which is already causing a lot of burden on the tax dollars. I think programs should be developed in such a way also to prevent and also to provide the initial treatment that can be easily given at home, because it is very successfully done in a lot of other countries and they save a lot of tax dollars.

How to prevent and how to treat the minor ailments at home, because I know the pediatricians in Winnipeg are doing a wonderful job and the children go to them. Their parents are explained about how to treat fever and how to treat nausea or vomiting or some of the other minor ailments, flu and how to treat them at the initial stage and that does really help to save us tax dollars in the long run. Can the Minister update, at what is being done so far? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I thin k my honourable friend is wishing two separate streams of information.

The first one is a specific seminar approach or lecturing appr oach, if you will, that the department has been utilizing in terms of information to the food services industry who are currently in the business of food prepara tion, the Restaurant Association and others. * (1 520) Secondly, the lecture and instructional capabilities that we do to the students going through various 2541 courses ol food preparation so that we can provide that information.

I think the second area that my honourable friend is getting at, and I take the liberty of indicating this, is in terms of public awareness of causative factors and for instance the most unfortunate one by example this summer is of the E. Cali outbreak, again attribut ed to inadequately cooked hamburger, which caused one family in the city just an incredible amount of grief.

I am sure if they only had to do it over again they would never be in the circumstances they are but, as a result of that we put out as much public service information as practical, not as practical, we put out a lot of public service information forewarning and we had good co-operation from the various media outlets forewarning Manitobans in the barbecue season to make sure that hamburger in particular was thoroughly cooked. That is a respo nsibil ity we take very seriousl y.

Unfortun ately it often takes some tragic circumstances of individuals getting in the paper because of the outcome of eating inadequately cooked hamburger like it happ ened this summe r. That is such a tragic preventable circumstance, but we do as much as we can in terms of public awareness, but you know unfortunately from time to time there is not 100 percent attention, I guess it is fair to say. Mr.

Cheema: I think it is extremely difficult that the Minister has said there are large-that Winnipeg is famous for more restaurants than anything else, there are a large number of outlets either for fast food or other food and it is difficult to get th em all the information at all the time. My question is: how often do the health inspectors go in other than inspecting? Is there a rule of only inspection or also guiding the various restaurant owners to how to take all the precautions, and what is the schedule?

Is this being done on a regular basis or random wise or somebody complains and then only they go and check? Mr. Orchard: Well, I think there are two answers to that. Complaints are investiga ted immediately, but in terms of an inspection routine, it is a shared jurisdiction between the City of Winnipeg and the province. The province undertakes, give or take, an annual inspection, the city inspectors are biannual, but complaints, there are the two streams, the regular inspection and then there is the specific complaints action. The specific complaints are investigated immediately. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, this is interesting that this is only in the area of Health. One of the areas I suppose the city has some role to play-but that is why a number of complaints come and people phone their city councillor. Then sometimes as a local MLA I get some inquiries and most of the people did not know which way to go. Our city officials will say, phone the ministry of health. The ministry of health will say it is not their right, it is not their job. We have had a few in the past, but it

Monday, November 6, 1989 was not a major thing so it was solved, it did not need your atte ntion, but it was some of the other people who solved the problem. Probably we should look at having more communication develop between the health inspector from the city and the Department of Health on a regular basis so that information is given to the public as a joint effort by the Department of Health from the provincial Government rather than giving it isolated responsibility to the city official.

If they are just dealing with the one inspector of health care and the rest is being addressed by the provincial health care, it makes their job difficult and certainly it does leave room for problems in the present and in the future and I think we should look at that in a more serious way. Mr.

Orchard: I accept my ho nourab le friend 's observations because although we have the Act, the inspectors are in the Environment Department which adds another sort of step to the process, and my honourable friend might also know that when it comes down to being the mean person it is the Minister of Health that signs the ultimate action. We did that in the case of a water supply of a trailer park just a year or so ago. I mean, that is fair, when action is needed action is taken. I appreciate what my honourable friend is saying.

There is a potential for overlap even though there is an attempt at, and I think fairly successful, quite successful in fact, degree of co-ordination between city and provincial inspectors. I guess like any other system, it is not fail-safe and 100 percent foolproof. Mr. Cheema: My next question is with regard to the lifesaving drug program. As I also asked in last year's Estima tes, can the Mini ster up date what are the lifesaving drugs available right now and how many people are using those drugs?

What is the cost per drug per person who are using them or the overall cost for these drugs to the taxpayers of Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, there are lifesaving medica tions which can be prescri bed un der this program. We agree to provide them where the normal family provision of the lifesaving drug, even with the assistance of the Pharmacare program, can cause financial difficulties for the family. That is where this program trig gers in. I will just give you the ones that we have.

There is injectible insulin, oral insulin, pharmaceuticals for rheumatic fever, and cystic fibrosis, as the major categories of pha rmaceuticals. I will also give my honourable friend, because I know he is going to ask it next, the numbers, in 1986 there were 779 people actually on the program, that grew to 870 in December 1987, to 1, 000 in 1988, and we are projecting a growth again in 1989 to approxima tely 1, 200. Mr.

Cheema: This is another interesting question now because if a number of these individuals are on social welfare, and I think it is, for my clarification, an important question, it may not be from the Minister's point of view. If somebody is on social welfare they hope everything is covered. lf somebody is on social welfare and is under using these drugs, who covers the cost then, is it the city or the Health Department? Mr. Orchard: Let me be clear. This program is not here for anyone who is on social assistance. Their pharmaceutical costs are covered under appropriations through economic security.

These are individuals for whom the provision of these lifesaving drugs would be a financial burden to the family, under the normal reimbur sement circu mstances of the Pharma care program. They are not social service recipients. Mr. Cheema: What is the normal period if somebody has to apply today and needs th ose drugs and they are under financial distress. How long do they have to wait? Mr. Orchard: Usually appro val is given within a month. Mr. Cheema: What kind of means test or financial resources are being looked at when you are assessing a person for the lifesaving drugs? Mr.

Orchard: The questions, or the information sought, is similar to the information sought for instance for access to legal aid or to CRISP as an income support program. It is not putting them through the hoops. We are just wanting to make sure the program is there to serve those that need it and not those that want it. * (15 30) Mr.

Cheema: That brings my question finally that if somebody is making $1 5,000 to $1 6,000 a year with a family of two at $30,000 with four kids, and somebody who needs the insulin or the medication of cystic fibrosis, and there have been a couple of circumstances and people have complained that they are not covered under the lifesaving drugs even though their incomes may sound, you know, $32,000, but if you look at the family structure as a whole, they may qua lify on a moral basis but not on a financial outlook.

Is there any appeal mechanism if the decision is made that the individual can go to an appeal board and apply for the lifesaving drugs medication? Mr. Orchard: Anyone who has been refused can obviously request a review of those circumstances and sometimes the decision is to uphold and sometimes to mo dify. That varies, depe nding on individ ual circumstances. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, the other day I asked a question to the Minister of Health, and he said that I should maybe ask the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) about the AIDS curriculum in school boards.

I will leave that to the Minister of Education-but what is specifically being done, other than the AIDS education in terms of the various school boards to let the children know about all of the communicable diseases, if there is any specific seminars going on a regular basis and who is in charge of that program? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, I guess the fairest way I can answer that is that there is in some of the health 2542

education curriculums, information on transmission of the STDs, but not the other communicable diseases, the measles, the mumps, those types. There is no formalization of th ose, because those are not sort of activity awareness communicable diseases. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-pass. Item (b)

(2) Other Expenditur es $4,94 1,800.00. Shall the item pass-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister give us the information about the funds given to the various external agencies for communicable disease? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, the Sanatorium Board of -(interjection)- there are just two. The Sanatorium Board of Manitoba is a $1 28,6 00 assistance grant and the Winnip eg Gay Community Health Centre, Village Clinic, is $73,300 for the total of $20 1, 900.00.

That is up to that amount, and then they are required to account-so that they have spent the money in accordance with the terms and understanding of how the monies would be used. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister give me information on the Sanatorium Board of Manitoba and was there activity? Mr. Orchard: That is monies provided to the Sanatorium Board to run the tuberculosis program in Manitoba. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, can the Minister tell me, there a few beds at the Rehab Centre also for the patients with tuberculosis at the Health Sciences Centre, and is this a separate program, because then the Manitoba Health Services Commission is still looking after th ose patients and paying all the bills. What is the role of the Sanatorium Board of Manitoba and how do they spend their money to help these patients with tu berculosis and their families? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, the support funds to the Sana torium Board were part of their funding arrangement.

The federal Government also provides money and that is to provide the community support side of the tu berculosis program. The formal care side of someone stricken with tuberculosis is carried out in the acute care hospital side. So this is the community flow, if you will. Mr. Cheema: So, Mr. Chairman, that means this program is strictly for the person at the community level?

Can the Minister of Health tell us how much money, if they have information from the previous audit of the Sanatorium Board of Manitoba, how much money they are spen din g in the No rth and the rur al communities because that is where it seems to be the more prevalence of the tuberculosis as compared to the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Orchard: I am informed that the monies for the pr ogr am tha t is offered in the no rthern reserve communities is provided by the federal Government as 1989 part of their share.

Part of the $128,600 that we are providing this year does allow delivery to some southern, if you will, reserve communities, it paid for by the province. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, it is my understanding that the patient with tuberculosis get free medication from the tu berculosis clinic at the Respiratory Centre at Health Sciences. Is that a separate fund? Mr. Orchard: Yes. Mr. Cheema: So that is covered by the Manitoba Health Services Commission? Mr. Orchard: Yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, then can the Minister tell us what is being done?

The other day I asked him a question, to have the breakdown of the number of the tuberculosis patients and the origin, and what is being done to help those target groups? Mr. Orchard: To help those which? Mr. Cheema: Target groups. Mr. Orchard: Okay. While we are on the topic I would like to pass out to members of the committee and to my two critics, the information was requested how many cases of tu berculosis are there in Manitoba and who is most at risk?

In terms of the Native community where we have-as my honourable friend will see from the statistics on the first page for 1988- 111 cases of tu berculosis and the number of Treaty Indians were 76, so say roughly two-thirds of the cases. Now, hold it here. That does not make sense. I will tell you what, let us not deal with those numbers because those numbers could be down wrong. I may have to pull those back if we cannot get it figured out.

There is as much education as we can do in terms of our nursing station involvement and certainly the federal Government thrust on particularly the northern communities where the incidence appears to be higher is emphasizing the living condition, the dietary and the other areas of education to the respective Native communities. I think it is fair to say that, although not perfect, there is a reasonable degree of success there in terms of identifying fairly quickly and attempting to prevent the spr ead of tuberculosis, but it is very much an individual one-on-one type of effort.

I am just going to check for my honourable friend whether we have one of our tu berculosis pamph lets translated into Cree because we do, do that provide to further education in the Native tongue. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister, or if he has the statistics of the PCG vaccination in those communities, and what is being done to promote the PCG vaccination in those communities? * (1 540) Mr. Orchard: First off, those numbers are not correct so we are going to have to replace that sheet either 2543

Monday, November 6, 1989 later on toda y or tomor row. The vacci nation is recommended for all Native children at the time of birth. Mr. Cheema: I did not ask for recommendation. I was just asking what is the end result and how many people are vaccinated, and what is being done to make sure that the vaccination is a successful one. Mr. Orchard: I will have to see if I can provide the specifics to my honourable friend's question, but I am informed that it is still a recommended vaccination procedure. How be we just use our pencils and stroke out-ju st two numbers are in error on the information I tabled.

Total number of Treaty Indians ought to read, not 76, but 31; total number of non-Treaty ought to read, not 18 7, but indeed 80, and that will total the 11 1. Mr. Cheema: I think the vaccination is an important component and certainly in those reserves, and it can definitely help.

It is not a 100 percent total protection like any other preventable illnesses, but as the program for other immuni zat ion in Winnip eg has been so success ful, I think everyt hin g should be do ne to encourage the vaccination and, more specifically, all the people who work in that area, like the public health nu rses, th e phy sicians and band mem bers, and everyone should be made aware that this thing can be prevented, and in the 1990s we will not have this kind of situation if we can attack the tu berculosis in the best way possible. It should be done.

I think I would certainly request their Minister find the information and what is being done and why there has been-again, the numbers are clear, there are 111 cases. Total number of Treaty Indians are 31. I am not personally aware of the total population so I cannot calculate the statistics but still the number is 31 ; it seems quite high. Can the Minister first of all answer my question in regard to PCG va ccination and when can I expect th e information? Mr. Orchard: Providing we can have it because, bear in mind, the split jurisdiction .

We will put together the best information we have, but I just want to indicate that, and I am sure my honourable friend knows this, the vaccination does not prevent TB, it only reduces the severity of it. But you know, I just want to share with my honourable friend some of the statistics, and I will pick given years just at random as I go through, and then I will give you, say,'82 and on, or'83 and on, or whatever. In 1965, there were 56 cases among Treaty Indians, of new cases, 214 new cases in total. Then you can get into reactivations where there were 49 reactivations in 1965, 20 of which were Treaty Indian.

There were a total of 214 new cases, 56 were Treaty Indian in 1965. Let us go to 1985. There were 131 new cases, of which 39 were Treaty Indians. Reactivations: there were a total of 13, five of which were treaty India ns, for a total of 144. So from 1965, in roughly a fairly straight trend line down with bumps up and down, as one can expect, we reduced from total cases 263 and 65 over a 20-year period down to 144, and currently 111 for 1988. The trend line is; I think, the one we would want to be on, where th ere is a decl ining incidenc e.

Part icu larl y significant, I thi nk, is the nu mber of reactivations which indicates a better follow-up, because reactivations are down from 49 in 1965, down to nine in this current year. The number of actual new cases is 214 down to 102. So one is cut roughly in half in terms of new cases and the other is cut down to one fifth in terms of reactivation. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the answer, but at the same time, as any health program when they are split within the two Parties, the federal and provincial Government is always overlapped and I think that maybe again just the view-any statistics that when two people are doing the same job you can not achieve the best possible goals. There should be some co-o rdin ation from the pro vincial health department to look at the BCG vaccinations so that at least the severity of the illness can be decreased and ultimately, I think, it would save taxpayers a lot of dollars. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, let me indicate to my honourable friend that probably we are already doing as he so sugg ests because one individual heads up the program. Funding is streamed, federal funding is targeted actually to some of the northern Treaty communities and southern funding pretty well across the board, but the program is centrally co-ordinated by one individual to prevent, just as my honourable friend says: duplication and overlap and subsequent ineffective program delivery. Can I just, before we get going-can I indicate to my honourable friend, the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), that there are two figures I would like you to change on the tuberculosis-oh, they were changed already. Have you got the pencilled-in 31 and 80? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Orchard: Fair enough. Mr. Chairman: Item 3, External Agencies $201 ,900- pass. Item (

c) Maternal and Child Health: Promotes health and well-being of childbearing women and expectant families, infants, children and youth by providing health information, health assessments, program services and family planning suppl ies.

(1) Salaries $286,700. Shall the item pass-the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us how many positions are vacant in the mana gerial and prof ession al and ad minis tra tive support? Mr. Orchard: We have no vacancies, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us what are-can he provide me with the if he does not mind, the name of the external agencies getting funding under this program? Mr. Orchard: Planned Parenthood Manitoba-do you want me to give you the numbers as well? 2544

Mr. Cheema: No, if it is possible to have a total copy then, because I will- Mr. Orchard: There are seven agencies: Planned Parenthood Manitoba, Serena Manitoba, Youville Clinic Inc., Committee on Unplanned Pregnancy, Clinic Inc., Women's Health Clinic Inc., The Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education Inc. Mr. Cheema: Can we have the breakdown of the funds given to those agencies please? * (1 550) Mr. Orchard: Planned Parenthood, now again the same rules apply, this is what their maximum budget is.

To achieve this level of funding they are subject, of course, to the year-end audit: Planned Parenthood Manitoba $16 8,000; Serena Manitoba Inc. $1 0,000; Youville Clinic Inc. $2 17,007; Committee on Unpla nned Pregnancy $62,700; Clinic Inc. $1 5,7 00; Women's Health Clinic Inc. $47,000; and Manitoba Association for Childbirth and Family Education, $20,900.00. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, what is the average increase of the funding for these agencies this year? Mr. Orchard: Averages of 4.5 percent, with some that are hig her. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us, under the U of W, they are giving . . . for the external agency and what are the terms of reference for that agency? Mr. Orchard: Youville? Mr. Ch eema: I think tha t is what you said. The University of Winnipeg or? Mr. Orchard: Oh, No. Youville Clinic. Mr. Cheema: I did not follow that. Mr. Orchard: Y-o-u-v-i-1-1-e Clini c, and that is $217,7 00.00. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I am not familiar with that clinic. Can the Minister of Health tell us where that clinic is located? Mr. Orchard: They are in the little shopping centre.

They are on Marion and Tache, just as you go across the river. You have to go around the block so to speak, and they are in the shopping centre where Howie's Drugs used to be. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairpe rson, if it is in Winnipeg the name was confusing to me so that is the reason I asked; not to know the exact street, or the crossing where the clinic is located. Can the Minister of Health tell us: during the last year's Estimates, we asked a number of questions on the role of family planning out of these clinics, and can he tell us now what is being done out all these external agencies? What is their mandate?

How are they helping the provincial health care system implement the family planning, and teaching the public in terms of what can be done to have a planned parenthood, and to achieve the size of the family they would like to have, and also to teach them in the various illnesses of the various health issues affecting the women of Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, there is a number of programs, and the basic I suppo se approach to each varies somewhat depending on which organization.

For instance, let me deal with the smallest funded agency first: Serena Manitoba, which provides information on natural birth control. Primarily I think it is fair to say that is their educational role, and they are quite pro active on a volunteer basis in that regard. Others provide direct advice thr ough their own created pamphl ets, et cetera, et cetera. I think COUP launched, what was that their second comic, first comic, in, if my memory serves me correct, about January, or was it last summer even?

They launched a comic, which was I suppo se situation and language appropriate, for the target market of youth, particularly teenage girls, and I think it served a pretty useful purpose in bringing the information to that target group if you will.

The Youville Clinic provides a fairly substantial service to mothers, both pre and post partum in terms of planning and information for the expectant mother in terms of diet and lifestyle et cetera, et cetera, in preparing particularly first-time expectant mothers with the information necessary for them to enjoy and successfully go through the wonderful experience of their first childbirth.

I gu ess tha t is similar in a num ber of other organizations, but several organizations try to target and focus sexual activity information, birth control information, to target groups particularly single women and teenage single women. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, even though all these clinics are continuing to serve Manitobans in a variety of ways, my question is, by reading the recent reports and the problem with the drug abuse and teenager pregnan cy, what are the specific programs that for the last 18 months have been initiated by this administration to deal with that specific problem? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I guess I could take credit for the comic, but I would be wrong in doing that. The comic was a product and a creation of our continued funding of COUP, for instance. Now I guess if I was a good politician I would say, well, golly we did that. In reality, the Government did not do that, and it has not with these funded agencies. We have been suppo rtive of some of their activities, and the comic book was in some ways controversial, but then so was the AIDS advertising.

The important key is to deliver the message in as understandable and realistic a circumstance as possible so that initiatives are ongoing. We are essentially dealing with a moving target, in terms of the information group, in that, what rings a bell if you will, or what information is important, 2545

Monday, November 6, 1989 can change from year to year. The agencies tend to reflect that in the style of programming that they bring forward with support from Government. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, I think the Minister has not answered my question. I am asking him specific information that is initiated by his department to deal with the teenager pregnancy. Are there any counselling procedures or mechanisms put in place through his department and in co-ordination with all these agencies?

How are they assessing the situation, and what is being done to make sure that this is given their priority because this is a major concern among the Winn ipeg popu lat ion? The teen ager pregnancies are on the rise and a number of problems associated with this, social problems, medical problems, also the long-term effects on the family structure. Can the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) tell us what policies, initiatives they have started for the last one and half years? * (16 00) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, in the last fiscal year there were-this is through the various funded agencies so this is an all up number of, I am sorry, I stand corrected. This is public health nursing statistics where information regard ing reproductiv e health i.e. teenage pregnan cy, there were almost 2,200 individuals provided with that information. There were slightly over 800 individuals involved in family planning clinics and in terms of classes, that was individual and reproductive health at top, in terms of classes some further 18 ,000, almost 300 individ uals were into reprod uct ive health information at the class level.

Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister of Health tell us what are the statistics in Manitoba, as compared to the other provincial jurisdictions? Mr. Orchard: This is on teenage pregnancies? Mr. Cheema: Yes. Mr. Orchard: We have that, we will just get it for you. We have an interprovincial comparison between the thr ee prairie provinces and we are the second highe st with Alberta being lower and Saskatchewan being highe r. Quebec has the lowest teenage fertility rate, Ontario the second lowest. The prairie provinces, the Yukon, and the maritime provinces, all have higher rates than the Canadian rate.

I do not know where B.C. fits into that. We are in the high end of the Canadian range in Manitoba. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, what is being done to evaluate why we have more teenage pregnancies in Mani toba, as com pared to the other prov incia l jurisdictions? What is being done to -a s the Minister has already indicated a few clinics are going and there are 2,200 pregnancies as he has indicated for the last one year, that is in the teenager pregnancy and they have talked to about 18 ,000. Is that correct, 18 ,000? Mr. Orchard: Through family planning or reproductive health classes. Mr.

Cheema: Yes, about 18 ,000. Mr. Orchard: The information I ha ve giv en my honour able friend deals with fertility rates among females aged 15 to 19 , and that is all-inclusive, tha t is both wedlock and out of wedlock, if you will. Mr. Ch eema: Mr. Chairp erso n, I think it is still worthwhile to have separate statistics to see the teenage pregnancy, the so-called unwanted pregnancy, and what are the statistics and what is being done to discourage that, to reach the target group? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, I guess we have no significantly different program than other provinces, in terms of an outreach program involving counselling, education and in cases of financial need, provision of family planning supplies to individuals. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister is saying that all the family planning things, like the birth control pills, the educa tion, and all that is given free of cost to all these individuals. Is tha t correct? Mr. Orchard: Well, the education, the outreach, yes, that is of no charge. In certain instances, and I believe the number is what?

Upwards of $1 20,000 per year, through our various funded agencies, is made available for the provision of family supplies, family planning supplies. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairpe rson, if I could get-if I am correct we could ask, for the Minister has said right now, and for the last few minutes, that they do not have an outr each pr ogram. Is tha t the correct statement? Mr. Orchard: We do have an outreach program. Mr. Cheema: Do we have outreach workers to reach these teenagers on the street? (Mr. Edward Helwer, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Acting Chairman, the public health nursing teams provide that service and also we fund four outreach workers in the community health clinics. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us what is being done to discourage the use of drugs during pregnancy and to be more specific during the teenager pregnancy? Do we have any special programs? Mr. Orchard: The program involves direct education in a group environment forewarning of the dangers to all expectant mothers and followed by one-on-one counselling for particularly high-risk individuals. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, is that true what the Minister is saying, excuse my language here, that each and every individual is being followed after the pregnancy if they are in a high-risk factor, for example, if they were having a drug abuse, or smoking, or other risk factor, or do we follow each and every individual? 2546

November 1989 Mr. Orchard: I am going to have to give my honourable friend a yes and a no answer. Yes, when they are known to us. No, when they are unknown to us. It is always with the identification that some may not receive any counselling whatsoever, simply because they have not come forward to seek same or we have not had the form under which to provide them information, because we simply do not know who they are. Mr. Cheema: Are there any special pamph lets prepared to deal with drug problems during pregnancy and given to all these teenagers? Mr.

Orcha rd: Yes, we do have one pamphl et in particular that we use for the education, either group, or one on one. Mr. Cheema: Are those pamp hlets available to all the clinics and hospitals and also the community clinics? Mr. Orchard: I am informed they are, yes. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the Minister of Health tell us are th ose pamphle ts available in trench also? * (16 10) Mr.

Orchard: Yes, some are indeed available in trench version and others are in the process of, some are in the process of, being translated to minority languages, and as well an audio-visual presentation is being prepared for those who need that service. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, before I further go into the other question in the Maternal and Child Health. There was the issue last year that created a lot of confusion. That issue was the Health Sciences' in vitro fertilization program.

Unfortunately, due to the various circumstances, that program was discontinued, and I would like the Minister to tell us, the couples who were in that program, who were registered in that program, what has been done to them, are they being referred to the other states and who is paying for the expenses, who is paying their bills? Also, there was information sent by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in regard to the financial status of the agency of the program last year. Why was it not very clear from that report how much money was spent on legal fees by the Health Sciences Centre?

There was some problem within the department itself. Can the Minister of Health answer all tho se questions, one by one? Mr. Orchard: I am not aware of any problem within the department itself, as my honourable friend indicates. I will have to wait, I will have to beg my honourable friend's indulgence until Manitoba Health Services staff are here during that line of the Estimates to find out whether they can ascertain the specific disposition, or what specific individual clients did in the program.

I just want to indicate to my honourable friend that in terms of the cost to the individuals, that cost, whether they went out of province to access a program for instance in Toronto say , that cost is borne entirely by the sponsoring couple, as was the cost at the Health Sciences Centre. There was no provincial contribution of funding, and that was understood from Day One as that program was brought on by the Health Sciences Centre. It was with the clear understanding that the provincial Government would not participate in any level of funding.

For decisions by the Health Sciences Centre that program was discontinued by them, and anyone who went elsewhere to access the program would do so at their own cost, because it is not an insured service. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister of Health tell us if he is aware that the program in Ontario is paid by the Ontario Health Services Commission? Mr. Orchard: That was my understanding a year and a half ago. Mr. Cheema: Can the Minister of Health tell us how he can justify that these individuals go on their own and pay for all their expenses?

It is not one visit, they have a number of visits, a number of tests have to be performed before they can qualify for their programs. How can they justify not paying some of the costs? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Acting Chairman, before we get too far into this discussion, my honourable friend is going to have to tell me whether the Liberal Party of Manitoba is advocating this as an insured service, because it was not an insured service at any time in the Province of Manitoba?

Individuals who availed themselves of the program at the Health Sciences Centre did so under the full knowledge that they would pay the entire program costs. That circumstance was consistent through the change in the Government and after. It was a decision by the Manitoba Health Services Commission that they discontinue the program because their costs exceeded projections, and a number of other factors which mitigated and precipi tated the decision by the Health Sciences Centre board and management to discontinue offering the program even though it was to be self financing and self supporting.

My hon ourable friend I hope would understand because he has made some of these requests himself, on behalf I presume of his Party. Just recently my honourable friend and his Leader pointed out where they think we need to spend, I presume in their estimation, substantially more resource in youth drug education and prevention, in terms of providing speech pathology services. My honourable friend is correct and we have been doing exactly that, but as has been often said in this committee, and even by my honourable friend on Halloween night, that tax money does not grow on trees.

We simply have not made, given the demands on the system right across the board, the decision to include in vitro fertilization as an insured services program to pay for out-of-province costs. I have to tell my honourable friend I had a most delightful experience over noon today. I presented a cheque at the International Centre to help pay for the medicals for Chinese students. Some 18 0 Chinese students and their spou ses have been disenfranchised by this summer's events in their homeland. They have 2547

Monday, November 6, 1989 chosen not to return to China, and they have been granted, through special circumstances and process by the federal Government, the ability to become Canadian citizens. They nevertheless have to have their medical status verified or if you will a complete medical examination. They do not have the resources to pay for that so we have provided up to $25,000 for that, and that was done at the International Centre. The reason I bring this up is that I met a very delightful young family man and his wife and his year-and-a-half old daug hter.

He has just come back from London, Ontario, as what appears to be an extremely successful liver transplant patient. I mean the individual is doing extremely well and that is only about seven, well maybe nine, weeks ago that the transplantation took place. Those are the kinds of services that we have elected on behalf of Manitobans to attempt, and we have not, nor has it been one of the priorities that we have acceded a request for funding in terms of making provincial tax dollars available for an in vitro fertilization program. That was a decision that was not just made by ourselves.

That is fairly consistent with the policy that we inherited as well, policy I have to say that given scarce resources I have to concur with at this time. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the Minister has given his own philosophical views about the number of other programs, but how about the in vitro fertilization program? These are the unfortunate couples who have no other way of conceiving. It is not something with choice, and the program which was discontinued after how many, nine to 10 months?

There were two to three months of breakdown in that total system, so it was not even given a good chance to prove or disprove that this program will or will not work. I think it was not a good decision, because hundreds of thousands of dollars were already spent and put into the whole program.

I think that decision was made on very short information, without thinking that it may have been successful, and since all the couples who were in the program were paying for some of their main expenses, but for someone to go out from Winnipeg to Ontario or some place else and go through all those tests, and stay in a hotel, it is very expensive. You are not just sending one person, you are sending the whole family. It is costing them their own money, and they did not have any problem of paying some of their own expenses here.

We want to enhance this research and upgrade the Health Science Centre into one of the world-class centres, and the program, when we have all the expert opinions here, was di scont in ued prematurely I would say. That was the opinion of many professionals, it is not my opinion only. It is a lot of people on the street who would have the same opinion.

Also there was a lot of arguments, again what the Minister has said right now, and people would argue why we pay for example for therapeutic abortions then, why we pay for family planning, why do we pay for other tests, why are we paying for all the tests being done out of Manitoba? * (16 20) So that is just a small sector of the population. They do not constitute the major number of the population of Manitoba. They are unfortunate circumstances. I think it was a prematur e decision, and we will wait for the Health Services Commis sion to gi ve us the full information.

They should compare it with the other provincial jurisdictions that it took them a little longer time to make sure that this program will work. I think the Minister, whether he agrees

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-65a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 65a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	57764a2d581d7c6eaafe96c59eece92d4f7c92f6

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