Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 34 (36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-34

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba _.·,�.:..· �� ·• DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 34- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, April21, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Vi rden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Ross mere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1919 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April21, 1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): I must inform the House of the unavoidable absence of Madam Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) and therefore, in accordance with the statutes, would call upon the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair, please. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): I beg to present the petition of Marge Lange, Chris Pawley, Bill Maltman and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba ask the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) to put an end to decentralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Broadway (Mr. Santos). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatized in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled, prepared food will be shipped in .from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization.

Invaria bly, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit .from this contract, especially patients. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the centralization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Dispense.

THAT the Urban Shared Services Corporation (USSC) has announced plans to privatize laundry, food services and purchasing for the Winnipeg hospitals; and THAT it is estimated that more than 1,000 health care jobs will be lost over the next year as a result, with many more privatiz ed in the next two or three years; and THAT under the terms of the contract, Ontario businesses will profit at the expense of Manitoba's health care system; and THAT after construction of a food assembly warehouse in Winnipeg, chilled , prepared food will be shipped in from Ontario, then assembled and heated before being shipped to the hospitals; and

1920 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 THAT people who are in the hospital require nutritious and appetizing food; and THAT the announced savings as a result of the contract have been disputed, and one study by Wintemute Randle Kilimnik indicated that, "A considerable number of studies have compared costs of service delivery in health care between self-operation (public sector) and privatization. Invariably, privatization is more expensive. "; and THAT no one in Manitoba seems to benefit from this contract, especially patients.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to put an end to the central ization and privatization of Winnipeg hospital food services. * (1335 ) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Ben Sveinson (Acting Chairperson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions. It directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before moving on to Question Period, may I bring to the attention of the House that we have seated with us in the public gallery from Robert Andrews School forty-one Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Sandy Copp. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay). We also have seated in the public gallery from Springs Christian Academy thirty-eight Grades 9 and 11 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St.

Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). We welcome all of you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Ste. Agathe Dike Status Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the International Joint Commission in December of 1997 stated that some residents feel the stress of dealing with the claims with the government, and that process was equal to or greater than the stress that they endured during the flood. We had written the government last year. We invited them to a public meeting last September in this House, and we wrote them after that on November 12 to ask for the status of the dike at Ste. Agathe.

The government wrote back a month later, and there is still a great deal of confusion about this dike and its impact on flood victims in the Ste. Agathe area. In fact, there is even more concern in that some residents are being told that they will have to pay $10,000 as a contribution towards the dike even though their houses are proposed to be expropriated to build the dike. I would like to ask the minister if he could clarify the status of the situation which I think all of us would agree is very, very unfair. Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition would have received that information. The status of the dike is that we have general agreement on the location of the dike. One of the troublesome parts about that is that there are some houses that will be on the wrong side of the dike. There are probably some properties that may in fact have to be removed during the construction of the dike. I met, along with the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Pitura), last week with representatives of the municipality and of some ofthe owners who found themselves waiting for an answer in regard to the issue I just mentioned, and we assured them that, between the municipality and the province, we will have a resolution to the issue in terms of moving forward with the construction, because, Mr. Deputy Speaker, technically what we want to do is to have a written agreement between the federal government, the

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1921 province and the municipality. That is imminent, and then the decisions will flow very quickly from that. Mr. Doer: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Doris Koczera, a person who attended a public meeting at this Legisla tive Building, a meeting that none of the Conservatives attended unfortunately after being invited through their House leader, has been informed of this. I would just like the minister then to say that this is not being proposed by the government.

I certainly would be absolutely delighted if he would inform the residents today through this Legislature that the $10,000 would not be required for people obviously that are having their houses expropriated as part of the Ste. Agathe dike. I think if he can clarify that today, a lot of the stresses built up over the last year and the stress that still will remain about the location of the dike and the payment of the dike will still be there, but one piece of stress could be removed here today in this Legislature on behalf of those flood victims one year later. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I want to be very careful about the context in which the Leader of the Opposition is asking the question. The way he has just stated the question, I see no reason why those same people would have to pay, but let us remember that there is a community cost share to any proposed community dike. If the people with whom he is discussing the issue are intending to relocate within a ring-dike community, and depending on what agreement the municipality makes regarding some co payment towards that community share of that dike, then there might be some truth to what he says.

But the way the question was stated, that does not automatically flow. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I certainly want to, as I did in my meeting last week, assure all of the residents of Ste. Agathe that the municipality and the province are working very closely to bring a quick and speedy end to this issue. Very much part of that is that we in fact have had the land value appraisal representatives in the community last week making sure that they have their work up to date, and then we will be able to present figures to the people involved. That is the first step in bringing finality to this issue. *

(1340) Water Commission Interim Report Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, again the devil can be in the detail for a lot of the flood victims, and the words "quick and speedy response" one year later for the residents of Ste. Agathe I regret to say ring rather hollow. I would like to ask the government to be very specific in writing with these people who are concerned about the $10,000 fee on top of the expropriation, very clear in writing, because these people are quite concerned about what they are being told verbally out in the Ste. Agathe community.

Further, I would like the minister, who promised in this House a week ago to table the interim report from the Water Commission-he said it would be only a matter of a few days. He has had that interim report for three weeks now. Victims in the area, the Red River flood area want that report, and I would ask the minister to also follow through on his word of last week where he said it would be tabled in a few days. Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is correct that the devil may well be in the details.

He also knows that the devil may be in Hansard if he or I put on the record misleading information that would then be directly taken by the residents that he is referring to. I want to be very, very careful that I do not add to the pain that these people are already experiencing by responding a simple yes or no to the question that he asked. The way he asked the question, the answer is no, but we should remember that this is a 45-45-10 arrange ment, a tripartite agreement between the municipality, the province and the federal government.

Depending on where those residents may relocate to, then there might be some element of truth to what the member is asking, and I am certainly willing and willing in the nth degree to subscribe the detail of the program that we are going through. I resent very much, however, that the Leader of the Opposition would characterize the response to the flood-proofing programs to be anything less than expeditious, because previous experiences with the '79 flood, we were talking about a five-year

1922 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 ---------------- �� -- � -- � agreement and it took Year 2 before the program even kicked in. We have 17 communities that have asked us for additional ring-dike protection this coming couple of years. Out of that, I believe five of them are in the design-to-cons truction stage, and we are very close to signing agreements with those communities so that the dirt can start to move. That compared to what response has occurred in previous flood events is light speed. Elk Ranching Illegal Shipment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when the government made its way into elk ranching, people were very concerned about the illegal movement and illegal capture of elk in this province. We raised the issue with the Minister of Agriculture and he said, I quote, we now "believe that there will be a far better measure of control exercised on the illegal trade and business with respect to elk as a result of the introduction of legislation." I wrote to the minister asking him questions about illegal movement of elk, and he gave me his assurance that there was none.

I would like to ask the minister if he can now indicate whether or not animals that are not properly registered in this province under the legislation are in fact illegally moving out of this province. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Very directly to the honourable member, no. I believe that there are no animals that I am aware of that are moving. I hasten to indicate to the honourable member that there is a situation where continuing investigation is looking into the fact of whether or not some specific animals moved illegally, and that investigation is being pursued vigorously. Ms.

Wowchuk: I would like to ask the minister whether he has followed up and whether steps have been taken with respect to Mr. Phil Houde who, in fact, put ads in two papers in 1997 indicating that he had elk out of Riding Mountain National Park that were for sale, whether those activities have been followed up, whether they have been brought under control, or whether Mr. Houde's elk are still leaving the province. Mr. Enns: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think I should remind the honourable member that it is important, when specific charges are made like that, that at least the name is correct.

But two aspects to that answer: there is nothing specifically prohibiting anybody, any one of the 72 elk ranchers that we now have in the province of Manitoba-! might add, a very successful start to that new and innovative livestock alternative to producers in Manitoba-that prevents any one of them from placing ads in any farm publication for the sale of their animals. That has been legal since the biii was passed here in this Chamber. There is a specific issue that is under investigation with respect to a Mr. Patrick Houde of the Elm Creek area that is being investigated.

We are aware of that situation and officials �� investigating that situation. *

(1345) Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Swan River, with her final supplementary question. Legislation Compliance Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to correct the record. I did say Phillip Houde: I meant to say Mr. Patrick Houde. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the minister whether or not there are other herds in the province where elk are being held in captivity for the purposes of ranching that do not comply with the legislation law-mainly the livestock diversification legislation.

Are all people who have wild animals in their possession in compliance with that legislation? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Deputy Speaker, certainly those animals that have been correctly, under the act, registered with the Department of Agriculture as appropriate licensees or permanent holders of domestic elk farming in the province of Manitoba are all inclusive with respect to animals held in captivity. There are, in my opinion, no more licences issued by the Department of Natural Resources, although I will let the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings) speak for his department, of the kind that there used to be prior to the legalization of elk farming in the province of Manitoba.

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1923 Again, it is not appropriate for me to comment on it. I am aware that every effort is being made to work with our aboriginal communities who see an opportunity in elk farming, and one that I encourage very much as an opportunity, that they are working with the officials of the Department of Natural Resources to in effect establish an aboriginal herd of elk from which aboriginal communities wishing to get into elk ranching could obtain their seed stock. Hunt Farms Government Position Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): To the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns).

Penned hunts or hunt farms are a disgusting concept that should not be allowed in Manitoba. Releasing an elk into a pen and then charging a fee for a so-called hunter to kill as a trophy is a vile practice. According to Natural Resources staff, this government is in fact considering this practice. Does this government support this disgusting concept? Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I will have to choose my words carefully or Hansard will ask me to withdraw them. I think the member knows better than to put that kind of crap on the record. Point of Order Mr.

Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would suggest that the comments by the minister are out of order. I have not checked Beauchesne, but I suspect if it is not in Beauchesne it is because there are other words that do not even make Beauchesne because they are so far out of order. I would ask if the minister might withdraw that comment. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable Minister of Natural Resources, on the same point of order. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I apologize for my choice of vernacular, perhaps garbage would be a better word. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the honourable members for their advice on that. I do believe the matter has been concluded, but I would ask members to choose their words carefully during the debate. * * * Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with his second supplementary question. Mr. Struthers: The question is very simple. Has this government taken any steps to consideration of hunt farms? Yes or no. Mr.

Cummings: The reason I take strong objection to the nature in which the question is asked is that if that member for Dauphin knows anything about standards, knows anything about the true nature of sportsman hunting and the fraternity in this province, then it is he who should be apologizing for raising that spectre in this House. The answer is- * (135 0) Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Hansard was shut off at the moment when the minister answered. Could I just ask the minister to conclude his response. Mr. Cummi ngs: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as I said, the reason I am so annoyed and disappointed in the member for Dauphin for asking the question in the manner that he did is that if he understands the true sportsmanship and the nature of the hunting fraternity in this province, he knows the answer is no. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The honourable member for Dauphin, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Struthers: Mr. Deputy Speaker, has the department consulted with the Manitoba Wildlife Federation to obtain their position on hunt farms? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Deputy Speaker, you know my feelings about it.

The member should now understand my feelings about it, and do I have any intention of consulting about it, the answer is no. Urban Shared Services Corporation Review Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): We have now learned that over a hundred kitchen jobs at St. Boniface

1924 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 2 I, 1998 ---------------- �� -- 2- -- � Hospital have been notified that they are going to lose their jobs because of the frozen food fiasco of the provincial govemmen t-F ilmon's frozen food. Mr. Deputy Speaker, pardon me, the frozen food of the province.

My question to the Minister of Health is: given the fact that in Estimates last week where the chairman of the USSC and the minister concurred that the major business plan and the premise upon which the business plan for the frozen food was developed has changed significantly and the so-called $5 million in savings has been reduced by over $2 million in savings, will the government put the frozen food plan on hold and allow for an appropriate investigation by an independent body of this idea of frozen food in our hospitals and nursing homes in Winnipeg? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): I always enjoy a factual debate on any matter of public policy. Let us for a moment listen to the comments of the question of the member for Kildonan. He seems to leave some kind of impression that patients in hospital are going to be served the old traditional TV dinner or frozen food. He sat through a discussion on the process in Estimates and knows that is not to be the case but perpetuate the myth seems to be in his purview. I notice he flags only St.

Boniface Hospital, so I can assume his information is coming from United Food and Commercial Workers, and I do not accept it, without investigation, as being accurate. Madam Speaker in the Chair Mr.

Chomiak: Will the minister not confirm that, in Hansard last week, the chairman of the USSC confirmed that of the nine hospitals that were supposed to be part of the cafeteria services for USSC, seven of the nine are not participating in the plan, which means that $2 million in so-called savings that this government is planning and which all those members wrote letters to their constituents saying we are going to save money in cafeterias is not going to be materialized?

The business plan is changed significantly, Madam Speaker, and it justifies an investigation, just like the $I 0 million that was going to be saved in home care justified an investigation. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, again the member for Kild onan forgets to work into his equation some $35 million in capital need the existing kitchens would need to upgrade their facilities. As well, what is very interesting, I have just received a note from my staff, and they tell me that the chief executive officer, Mr.

Sheil, was on the radio and that there are no job losses-th is, again, was part of the UFCW propaganda campaign-and we indicated to him, many of those people are being moved into other positions within the system, which is absolutely consistent with what we are talking about. My only advice to the member for Kildonan was not to look at United Food and Commercial Workers for anything resembling accurate information. *

(1355) Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister who could not duck the question in Hansard, in fact confirmed that seven of the nine facilities will not be participating in the cafeteria food services, therefore, $2 million in so-called savings will not be realized and was confirmed by his own chairperson, Mr.

Sheil, that hundreds of jobs will be lost as a result of food services, and it is confirmed that 90 percent of Manitobans are not in favour of this, will the minister consider sending this deal to the Provincial Auditor for review by the Provincial Auditor of the financial figures with respect to this so-called food deal that has been entered into by the provincial government? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, this is a very instructive, to me, line of questioning, because for one thing, we talked about the cafeteria, the public cafeteria food and, yes, many of those hospitals want to keep them.

These are the same hospitals that a year or so ago collectively lost $2.5 million of health care money that we needed for hip and knee replacements-who lost it in subsidizing cafeteria food. I am pleased to indicate today that we have instructed the WHA to take that $2.5 million out of their budget- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Health, to complete his response.

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1925 Mr. Praznik: Thank you. Madam Speaker, we have heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) support the system of independent boards, which means he supports $2.5 million of health care money that we needed for oncology, for nurses, for a host of patient care issues that the New Democrats would rather waste on cafeteria subsidy, and that really is the issue. Winkler Hospital Emergency Services Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I have received a number of questions and concerns from the citizens of Winkler with regard to the Winkler hospital and the fact that they no longer have the services that they used to have. They are requesting that Winkler Bethel Hospital services be reinstated and the hospital be upgraded to higher standards. Can the minister tell this House: what are the chances of having the Winkler hospit al emergency ward reopened? Hon. Dar ren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member for St.

Boniface, but if my memory serves me well, both Winkler and Morden currently share emergency services, that they have effectively been combined into a Boundary Trails hospital organization that shares services between the two facilities. That was done as a prelude to-the beginning of their planning for the creation of a new Boundary Trails hospital on a site between the two communities. Madam Speaker, that has been approved. The details now are being finalized, and I look to the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck); I imagine we will be in the ground on that hospital, we expect, in this calendar year. Mr.

Gaudry: Given there are still concerns as late as this morning, is the minister going to direct the RHA to look into this matter expediently? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the regional health authority has the responsibility for administering health care in that particular area. I know that you have two existing hospitals that have been combining their services over the last number of years as a prelude to building one hospital between the two facilities.

If I remember correctly, this time last year when we had a withdrawal of emergency services, I believe the doctors from Winkler withdrew their services to the people of that community while the doctors from Morden continued to provide them. So there may be some differences of opinion within that community, that maybe the member is only hearing one side of that. *

(1400) St. Boniface General Hospital Food Services-Layoffs Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): Madam Speaker, to the same minister: in regard to the layoffs at St. Boniface Hospital-we know that it is a done deal with the food services-what does he intend to do for the employees that will be laid off in the near future? Hon. D.arren Praznik (Minister of Health): I thank the member very much for that question, because despite the New Democrats raising the issue, they really stay away from the real critical issues, and the member for St. Boniface has raised this.

Last year, Madam Speaker, when the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), along with CUPE, brought a group to this building, I asked for a pause in that particular project to ensure that the labour relations issues could be worked out. I have met with CUPE since. The objective that everyone in those facilities is working towards is ensuring that a proper, a voluntary separation plan-I think 30 weeks has been off ered to those who want to leave the system. The jobs in the new system have been posted for those who currently work in it.

Thirdly, those who do not fit into either category are being retrained for other positions within the system. I know at Concordia, for example, they have been so successful in placing people in the new system, I think they actually have to hire some new staff in their food services area. Regrettab ly, from all reports I have had of United Food and Commercial Workers, they have not been encouraging their members to work through that process, so they have to accept responsibility if it does not work out for their members.

1926 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 Health Care Forum Minister's Attendance Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, · there was a time that governments and ministers were not afraid to face the public, but in the space of one week alone we have seen the tough-ta lking minister of today talk about staying away from debates-stay away. In fact, he ducked a meeting on frozen food on Tuesday, a health care forum on Thursday and the unveiling of the nurses' report this Monday.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he will now correct the record and indicate that, for example, when it came to the health care forum, that he actually arrived at the forum after the health care forum sponsored by CBC was held, that he actually could have spoken much later at the fundraiser, and in fact, he ducked the meeting. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I feel somewhat like the bear who has chosen a different course and escaped the trap of the hunters who are now angry that the bear did not walk into it.

The member for Thompson should be somewhat shamed by his involvement in a particular forum this week that he referenced. That particular organization, and I do not have it to table but I will, sent me a letter, an invitation under a name of some organization that sort of was put up for the purpose, on blank stationary, sent it to my office on Thursday afternoon before a long weekend to invite me to attend a forum in St. Boniface on the Tuesday night, never said who they were, and the only thing we learned is reading in the paper that it was United Food and Commercial Workers.

So if people are not going to be honest in setting up a forum, then it speaks greatly about them. Madam Speaker, we have spoken much about the way that the CBC structured this forum. To basically ask and hand-pick an audience, it is evident of what it was about. It was not really in the interests of good public debate. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, with a supplementary question. Audience Members Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the minister ref erenced that he felt like a bear. Chicken would be more appropriate.

I would like to ask as a follow-up: is the minister somehow suggesting that the CBC and the Free Press handpicked this forum, this audience? Is he then essentially agreeing with his Premier (Mr. Filmon) who suggested it was a political setup, and is that how far he has sunk when he will not go to a public forum open to all members of the public, sponsored by the Free Press and the CBC? Is that how paranoid he is as a minister? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I table now the copy of the letter I have from one Christine Martel, for the so-called public service project, which members will note is on a totally blank piece of paper in terms of identifying who they are. I notice in the story that the member for Thompson was involved with those United Food and Commercial Workers. At least people should have the honesty to identify who they are. Madam Speaker, from the few clips I have seen of the forum, and if one canvasses the audience and some of the people reported as speaking, they were a hand picked audience.

CBC advertises for only people with problems, not for people who have general comments, good or bad. The CBC is noted for forums such as this. They did what they normally do, and the only beef they have is that this minister did not get caught in their trap. I make no apologies for that. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I realize the government is getting paranoid, but does the minister seriously expect the people of Manitoba to believe that there is something suspicious about having Tony Quaglia, the former director of St.

Boniface Hospital; Brian Post!, the Canada centre for policy health alternatives and Department of Health representatives at a forum sponsored by the Free Press and the CBC? Is that a setup or is it a fact that this government is absolutely afraid of facing the public on its disastrous health care policies? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I have spoken in many forums across this province. I have participated in many debates. I have been in forums with the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). Every day in this House I rise to def end our policies in front of this television camera and speak to Manitobans.

I have spent hours and hours in committee being questioned by members opposite. I have brought even the planners and the

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1927 administrators within the system to that committee to be questioned by members opposite. We have had interesting debate. Regrettably, I did not see the CBC come to legislative committee to follow this.

I rarely see the Free Press, and when I scan that audience and I see people who have been out of the health care system for many years, when I see people who had their issues in certain hospitals, now living out of province being brought back, and I see a Free Press ad that does not say tell us your good and bad stories about health care but only the bad ones, you have to be pretty foolish not to see what the CBC was attempting to do. Health Care System First Nations Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My question is to the Minister of Health.

Madam Speaker, ever since this government embarked on this health reform trip I have consistently pleaded with the Minister of Health to consider the general state of health amongst our people. To abandon the treatment aspect almost overnight and switch everything to prevention, education and community-based health would place our people in an untenable position. Many of our people would die during the transition phase because they are simply not receiving the treatment and the care that they should be receiving today.

My question to the minister is: what plans does he have today that would address the Third World health care conditions that exist that are being faced by our people today and being exacerbated by this government's health ref orm plans and being confirmed by the latest health report by the nurses yesterday? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am not sure who the member for The Pas is referring to with respect to certain people, because surely to goodness he is not arguing that our health care delivery mechanism in Manitoba is Third W or! d. That would be absurd.

If he is referring to the fact of inadequate services in many First Nations communities in northern Manitoba, I would agree that they are far from adequate, and that is why I am very supportive of the process of transferring those dollars and authority from the national government to those First Nations. We discussed in Estimates last week how that could be accomplished respecting our different jurisdictions, and I am fully supportive of that.

Madam Speaker, if he is making that accusation of Manitoba, we had a physician visit us yesterday from South Africa who spoke about our delivery mechanisms in Canada and spoke highly favourably of our system. When you compare our delivery system in terms of what is happening in the rest of the world, I think the member for The Pas' statement would not stand the scrutiny of fact. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, with a supplementary question. * (14 10) Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses Standards Mr.

Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my second question to the same minister is: given the nursing shortages, the increased amount of time nurses have to spend on paperwork and denying patients the service, the necessary medical trips that are required to come to Winnipeg and compromising nursing standards, which is the mandate of MARN whose existence, I believe, and whose mandate is based on The Registered Nurses Act, could I ask the minister what priority he places on ensuring that standards are not compromised, and lastly, who is monitoring what nowadays? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I have never denied in any public statement in this House or at any debate that there are not pressures on the system. I think the member is referring to the Manitoba Nurses' Union and not MARN. The report that was put out yesterday was by the Manitoba Nurses' Union. If one goes back to 1983, many of the same kinds of statements they were making in that report, they made at that particular time-but not to make light of an important issue in any way.

I know discussions that I have had with the Manitoba Nurses' Union with respect to working conditions, burnout, need for more hands in many of those circumstances, the high use of overtime-wh ich we do

1928 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 not have an accurate assessment of, but I have no reason to doubt is not taking place-many of these particular issues require the general employing authority of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, which New Democrats, I gather, have opposed. We would expect that if we can get the tools that we need to better manage the system, many of these areas can be addressed. As I have indicated, Vera Chemecki and I meet regularly, and we wish to pursue many of these areas.

As well, nurses are now involved in the program development in each of the 13 teams within the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, I am going to ask the minister the same question, because I think he may not have heard me and he may have misunderstood me, or he deliberately did not want to answer my question, and that is the mandate and purpose of MARN, M-A-R -N, Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the licensing body in Manitoba for registered nurses, I believe exists on a piece of provincia l legislation, Manitoba legislation called The Manitoba Registered Nurses Act.

My question to the minister is: what standards are being compromised, and who is monitoring if standards are being compromised in the health care delivery. especially in the remote northern nursing stations? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, many of those remote nursing stations that the member references are not within provincial jurisdiction. Some of them are, some of them are not. Some of them are federal. The Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses is the licensing and professional body for nurses.

Their job is to ensure that they are properly trained and educated and that in the course of their practice they maintain the proper professional standards that are required of their profession. They operate like every other professional body in the province, as a complaint-driven organization, that if people file complaints about the performance of particular nurses, they are filed with that body and that body has the power, I understand, to revoke their licensing. The administrators of each health delivery facility meeting acceptable standards in the delivery of care; otherwise, they are liable to lawsuits.

Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. During Question Period on March 25, 1998, the honourable member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) raised a point of order respecting words spoken by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). The point of order alleged that the minister had imputed unworthy motives to the honourable member for Crescentwood. I took the matter under advisement in order to review Hansard.

The words objected to, I believe, by the honourable member for Crescentwood were "time and time again we have seen members of the opposition, particularly the member for Crescentwood, exaggerate and take out of context remarks.

" I wish to read into the record some words of former Speaker Fraser of the House of Commons: " ... this place has never been a tea party and strong- minded men and women who believe passionately in things are going to express that passion and conviction from time to time ... this is a tough place ... that is not an excuse for excess, but it is and must be remembered that the most precious things and the most vital issues that this country faces are debated here and there will be at times expressions of great commitment, conviction and passion.

I am sure that people will understand that in a free country, provided that those expressions are done in such a way that they do not wound others or bring into indignity the institution itself, that is probably something we have always had and probably something that will continue. " I do not believe that the words used by the honourable Minister of Health did constitute an imputation of unworthy motives to the honourable member for Crescentwood. There was, therefore, no point of order. have the responsibility to ensure that its facility is * ( 1420)

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1929 MEMBE RS' STATEMENTS Premier's Volunteer Service Awards Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vital): Madam Speaker, volunteerism has always been strong in Manitoba, and today the Premier (Mr. Filmon) announced the 10 recipients of the 1998 Premier's Volunteer Service A ward. This award celebrates the efforts and dedication of all Manitoba volunteers. Recipients of the award have all made outstanding contributions to their communities, demonstrating leadership, personal initiative and determination through their volunteer activities.

The Premier's Volunteer Service Award is a great honour, and it serves as a reminder that there is a lot that Manitobans can accomplish in our province. On behalf of all members ofthis Legislature, I would like to congratulate all who have received awards this year, and I would just like to note that the panel of judges who sifted through all of the applications and selected the recipients are themselves volunteers and their contributions are also very much appreciated.

Just as a P.S. to this, we would just like to say to members and any who are listening, volunteer activities, anybody who is interested in them need not look any farther than the 1999 Pan Am Games. There is still a need for volunteers, and I cannot think of a better way to promote our province and our people on an international scale while at the same time learning about other people from all over North and South America. Thank you. Highways-Northern Manitoba Mr.

Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): As anyone who has travelled on northern roads the past few weeks knows, many of them have deteriorated significantly over the past winter. The mild winter has been followed by a record number of potholes. Highway 6 north of Grand Rapids and Highway 60 are in particularly bad shape. Last weekend I experienced several severe potholes on these roads, and I have had many calls from others concerned about the conditions of those roads.

I urge the Highways minister to either personally drive on some of these roads over the next few weekends or have staff investigate the situation so that action can be taken to make the roads safer. Disappointment over the broken promises of the department to tackle on an orderly basis PR 391 continues to come in. On April 15 the Leaf Rapids town sent the Minister of Highways a letter requesting the minister to reconsider his decision to not have the PR 391 base and AST capital project on the 14. 6- kilometre

section west of PR 280 in the 1998- 1999 highway new construction program. This follows a similar letter sent to the minister by the Leaf Rapids Chamber of Commerce which I ta bled in the Legislature earlier this week or last week. I hope the minister will now take the situation seriously instead of quoting out-of -date letters or clippings. As the Leaf Rapids mayor noted, the community is striving to develop economic diversification and encourage companies to do exploration in the area and to attract business people. PR 391 must be brought up to an acceptable standard as soon as possible.

It is our hope that the minister will now accept this reasonable request and live up to past promises and that he will improve this

section ofP R 39 1. Thank you. Regional Alterna tive Education Centre Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, last night I had the pleasure of attending the grand opening of the Regional Alternative Education Centre in Altona as part of the Education Week celebration in the Rhineland School Division. The theme of the Rhine land School Division is Community Through Learning, and Learning Through Community. This is seen in the division's long-standing commitment to providing quality education to learners, young and old.

The Regional Alternative Education Centre is an important link between the school division and the community. It serves an adult constituency that has expressed a desire to achieve high school graduate status within the context of their busy family and working lives, and some of the people are actually using it to increase their knowledge through higher degrees of learning past high school.

The centre first started its co-operative venture which included among the partners: Manitoba Education and Training, Pembina Valley Development Corporation, Pembina Valley Learning Centre, the Pembina Valley Literacy for Adults, Red River Community College and

1930 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 Human Resource Development Canada. The Altona centre is in its first year of oper ation and has experienced significant success as a large number of students have taken advantage of this important service. The centre shows considerable promise in being an important factor in helping the region achieve economic and social success. More than 90 students have registered in the centre today. They range from high school to adult. The centre is obviously fulfilling a real and important need for southern Manitoba.

I congratulate the organizers and staff of the Regional Alternative Education Centre in Altona for a job well done and wish the students well as they upgrade their education, Madam Speaker. Mr. Andy Drummond Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): I would like to use my member's statement today to say goodbye to a staff member who has been our lone staff member since the '95 election, and he has carried a Jot of weight on his shoulders; that is Andy Drummond. His last day of work for us is on Friday.

He is going to China to teach English on a program being done by Red River Community College, and I believe the Minister oflndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) will know something about the program. This is a person who has acted beyond and above the call of duty, and that is Andy Drummond. He has been a loyal, loyal employee who has been there, and not only put in his 40 hours a week, but working for a number of elected officials-he has political leanings, and he spent many hours of his free time helping us out.

I think if you look back at the newspaper clippings, the stories since the '95 election, the three members here, with the assistance of Andy Drummond, a number of times have brought issues forward with his keen research and hard work, and I want to commend him for what he has done, how loyal he has been to us, how he has followed direction and wish him the best of luck in his travels to China. Thank you. Manitoba Book Week Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): As most members know, Madam Speaker, Sunday, April 19, to Saturday, April 25, is Manitoba Book Week.

I believe all members have received a package of information from the Association of Manitoba Book Publishers, and an excellent package it is, including a calendar of events, biographies of accomplished Manitoba writers, a directory of Manitoba book publishers, the names of book stores participating in this week of literary celebration, a celebratory week which features book launches, readings, meetings, awards, and draws for book prizes. This Jist is not inclusive since Manitoba Book Week is richer than I can document in a member's statement.

Manitobans are justly proud of our writers from the time of Frederick Philip Grove and his work of the '20s and '30s, to writers like Margaret Laurence with her now classic Manawaka novels, which delineate prairie consciousness only to suggest finally that the local is the only universal, to the many fine Manitobans writing in the '90s, Ian Ross, for example, who recently won the Governor General's Award for drama. Manitoba writers have contributed to the myriad of voices that we call Canadian.

As a Manitoban who loves literature and remembers a time when Canadian literature was disregarded, even denied, when a colonial mentality so prevailed that our universities did not teach our literature, I am terrified at the prospect of the MAl and the disastrous effect it could have on our writers and culture. Clearly we must be vigilant, and I know the NDP, federally and provincially, will be just that. In closing, I ask all members of the House to join me in congratulating Manitoba writers, publishers and bookstores for their creative work and dedication to culture.

These people help us to see who we are, and because of them our lives are richer, our vision stronger and our voices remembered. *

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, for the information of honourable members, I propose to call bills tomorrow, on Wednesday, once we get into government orders.

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1931 Madam Speaker: For the information of the House, the government House leader has indicated that tomorrow he will be calling bills. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to her Majesty. Motion agreed to. CO MMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ENERGY AND MINES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section ofthe Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Energy and Mines. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 23 .1 (

b) Executive Support

(2) Other Expenditures, on page 4 7 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Ifl remember correctly, I believe the minister was about to answer a question I just posed in regard to the change of a goal that was set one year, last year, at 50 percent increase for exploration and this year has dropped to 40 percent. It was my understanding that these goals were set back in '94-95 or maybe even earlier. I was looking for clarification or the rationale for that change. Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): The goal was 50 percent. It has been revised to 40 percent.

We wanted to be more realistic given the market conditions that influence exploration. We, of course, cannot control world metal prices and product demands that ultimately influence corporate investment decisions. What we can do and we are doing is to attempt to create the kind of investment climate in Manitoba that will make our province an attractive place to do business. We are doing this through our nine-point mining investment strategy. Having said that, how are we progressing towards achieving our goal by the year 2000, using 1993 as a baseline?

In 1993, exploration expenditures in Manitoba amounted to $27 .4 million. A 40 percent increase would have been $38.4 million. A 50 percent increase would be $4 1.1 million. In 1996, exploration expenditures totalled $4 1. 2 million. In 1997, although the final figures are not yet available, the forecast is for a slightly higher expenditure level at $4 1. 7 million. These goals are intended to serve as one of the indicators of how well the industry is doing. Clearly, it is something we as a department cannot take sole credit for.

The targets represent our vision of where we would like to see the industry performing in Manitoba on a sustained basis. Our role is to do whatever we can to help industry achieve these goals consistent with the philosophy and policies which I outlined to a certain extent yesterday. Ms. Mihychuk: One of the other inconsistencies, it seems to me, is the identification of mineral production as a mission. In the '96-97 departmental expenditures, it is identified that the mission or the goal was to increase mineral production in Manitoba by 20 percent.

In this year's, '97-98 and '98-99, I do not see that goal represented in the two Estimates books. Can the minister clarify the elimination of that goal? Mr. Newman: Because of our lack of control over value, because of a lack of control over prices, we felt that it was an indicator which was not even as reliable as the last one to measure progress. So we have forgone utilizing that as a target indicator. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us when these goals were established? Mr. Newman: The original goals were established three or four years ago, and the revised goals were established in the early part of 1998.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us if the department and the ministry at that time when they set the goals, did they believe these goals were achievable? Were they realistic goals? Mr. Newman: Long-reach achievable targets, yes.

1932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 *

(1450) Ms. Mihychuk: I note that in the 1995 Estimates that the goals are already identified at that time. I have with me other years as we go back. My questions are basically related to the fact that this looks like a long term attempt to set what I would have considered fairly optimistic goals. However, it was, I assumed, the result of a process that the department undertook with Industry, perhaps, Labour, the mining sectors and that those goals were taken with some seriousness.

I would like to ask the minister what type of process wa <; established to change the goals since they have, in effect, been the department's goals for over three years. Mr. Newman: I have personal knowledge of the planning process. Shortly after I became minister after January 6, 1997, I participated for the concluding part as an observer to see how the process worked. It is an inclusive, participatory senior-management process where they, with flip charts and facilitation, try and determine the goals.

In previous years, I gather that they have had a participatory process of senior management, and every year they look at revising goals with the view to create optimistic but achievable goals. In the course of reconsidering year after year, they look at market conditions and redefine in accordance with the unforeseeable becoming foreseeable. In other words, they recalibrate based on current information. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, going back to the '94-95 annual report, I see that there too were established five goals that were carried on for several years, obviously with the long-term goal of reaching them in the year 2000. It seems to me that a person may argue that the goals are changed to meet the convenience of reality, and I question that. It appears to me that we have, in terms of exploration, reached the 40 percent increase from '93 . We knew those numbers. I have the history from '93 onwards and it is, I think, somewhat questionable to change the goals based on, I guess, what is convenient and what looks good.

The fact is that the mining prices and values have dropped; therefore, perhaps we will not be able to achieve that target. But it seems misleading or it lessens the value of those goals if we feel that we are able to change them to the convenience of meeting the targets. There have been significant changes in the goals, and one of them is to increase mineral production. That has been eliminated completely. By 20 percent was the goal; it is no longer a goal identified by the department. We see the reduction in the target for mineral exploration has been decreased from 50 percent down to 40 percent.

One of the goals that has been consistent, as far as I can see, is to increase oil production. That is a program that has been highly successful and, you know, that goal is achievable and maybe even might be surpassed, and so be it. If history finds that our goals were somewhat off, I think that is the assessment we make in the year 2000, but at that time we would be able to take a review and analyze our process in an open way and perhaps use the exercise as a way of improving our service or looking at a more realistic target for the next five years.

But I would have serious questions about changing the goals, what apparently seems on an annual basis, for what is convenient for the department. I would ask the minister to perhaps define a more collective process for the definition of these goals, and that may include more of a partnership goal, especially in the area of mineral production and exploration where we have industry presumably working in partnership. Does the minister see a role for the mining association or the mineral sector participating in these goal attainment levels? Mr.

Newman: Since I have become minister, I will always treat your thoughtful considerations which you express here, as will my staff, in deciding what approach they should take in future. I am comfortable with the adjustments that have been made which are relatively minor to the goals. I think given the realities of what has happened in the international marketplace, it would not be sensible to just proceed with the previous year's goals when a 40 percent increase would be an aggressive target, given the attractiveness of investing at this time in any jurisdiction.

But I will share with you something that I have learned so far which sometimes has caused me to wonder whether anything is more important once you

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1933 have achieved a friendly environment, an attractive environment for investment in terms of fiscal policy and reliability and rule oflaw and general infrastructure being relatively good, all of the basics for being an attractive place to invest. Once you have done that-an d I believe that has been done in Manitoba-we always have to adjust to changes in other jurisdictions to make sure that we continue to be not left far behind or ahead.

But the curious thing that I have learned about the mining industry, even the oil business-maybe mining particularly in Manitoba because it is a much bigger industry-is that the excitement of a find seems to be the most important factor in attracting investment. Now, whether that is right or wrong, it is reality. I just look at Newfoundland and ask myself why did they attract as much investment as they did.

If it had not been for Voisey Bay, would they have attracted anything near what they have achieved? * (15 00) So my greatest hope, which all of the efforts are directed toward, is having a real ma jor mine brought into production, a real major deposit found here that attracts the interest of the world.

Nothing else, my experience would suggest, all the other things being attractive, will make a difference and to that extent, and then the forecast will be so inadequate that whoever is fortunate enough to be in the ministry at that time will have difficulty explaining why suddenly your exploration expenditures have increased by maybe 100 percent or 200 percent and why has this happened.

I would argue that it is probably because all of the effort was made to have an attractive environment earned over many years which resulted in all of this exploration going on, and suddenly one of them-not suddenly, but at a given point in time pursuant to this evolutionary exploration process, all things came into place and a major discovery was announced or a major mine came into production. That will make all the difference. So I really will be very candid.

I have put less stock in these indicators and far more stock in what kinds of efforts are being put in by the department and what sort of third-party endorsements we get from people in industry and knowledgeable people in mining who speak to how Manitoba is doing relative to other places in the world.

The interesting thing I have also discovered is that the statistics, in many cases, do not reflect what I would regard as the superior job Manitoba is doing relative to other jurisdictions, but it does explain why we continue to more than hold our own in the competitive environment out there, that what we need is the magic, the attractiveness of a major find announcement or a major new mine coming into production. Ms. Mihychuk: There is always a debate as to whether to focus department energies on finding the new big one or directing energies to preserving and supplementing what exists already.

Manitoba is facing a crisis in a number of different areas, Leaf Rapids, Flin Flon. Snow Lake underwent a serious closure and reopening. I am not sure of the length of reserves there. Bissett. These are mining communities who have been severely impacted by mine closures. The department has a policy, 8.2, which states: Programs shall be developed to encourage and direct exploration into areas threatened by permanent mine closures. It goes on to state that the intent of the policy is to maintain the economic viability of communities by finding new ore reserves.

It goes on as to how the department will conduct its business to meet those ends. Is the minister saying that in his view the department's goal should be focused on finding the next new ore deposit rather than continuing to look for reserves in established mining community areas? Mr. Newman: No, it is a combination of both, as that particular policy indicated. There is still a significant amount of proven deposits in the traditional mining areas, and much of that information being in the records, probably of lnco and Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, and how many mines they have in waiting we can never be sure of.

Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us the mission or the purpose of the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: I cannot quote it, but the purpose is laid out in the statute, and it is a listing of a number of different items. If you had the statute handy, where we could put our hands on it, I could accurately put into the record what its purpose is. In essence, its purpose is to contribute to the continued employment and

1934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 economic well-being and health of communities that suffer from the inevitable closure of mines. The reserve, under The Mining Tax Act, which takes, in an exercise of discretion, a percentage of mining taxes, is used to fund initiatives about or for the benefit of mining communities that may be affected by the total or partial suspension of mining operations. Ms. Mihychuk: The monies that are collected are through a percentage of the mining taxes.

The major producers are, I would presume, the major contributors, or do we have list of companies that are contributing in that sector to supplement the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: The amount of contributions by company is directly related to the profitability, and the size of the company is not the factor. Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, for example, I am not sure the last time that they made a contribution in the form of mining taxes. Inco is probably the biggest contributor over recent years, and had some dazzling years in the past. * (1510 ) Ms.

Mihychuk: How much money was directed from mining taxes into the Mining Reserve Fund in the past fiscal year? Mr. Newman: The transfer from mining taxes to the reserve for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1997, was $244,000. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the decision to transf er money made by the Minister of Finance, or is there a set formula for the transfer of funds? Mr. Newman: It is determined by the Minister of Finance. Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister provide, if it is not available now, but for information, the contributions made to the Mining Reserve Fund in the last four years since '95? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us what projects were funded out of the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: I can give you right now the payments out of the fund made in 1997-98 as at October 31 , 1997. I can update that to March 31 of this year. I have been given another listing which is more current, and the project, on account of the Sherridon tailings initiative, the cleanup was $1 ,975. The education support levy for the Ruttan Mine agreement was $1 17,957.45.

That is the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited arrangement that has been ongoing since the New Democratic government of the past negotiated that arra ngement. Support for the Prospectors Assistance Program, $99,261 .50. Another item with respect to addressing the Sherridon tailings issue, $39,70 6.43, for a total of $258,900 .38. Ms. Mihychuk: Have monies been withdrawn from the Mining Reserve Fund to cover MEAP advances or grants? Mr. Newman: No. The process that was used to fund MEAP was to have funds moved from the Mining Reserve that exceeded the $5-m illion cap into the Consolidated Fund.

Those funds were then used to finance MEAP. So the way it was handled was to, in effect, deem, if you will, a surplus to the fund and then use it for the purposes of MEAP. Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate what he considers a surplus to the fund, and was all of the money then transferred out of that to general or consolidated revenue? Mr. Newman: No. The current minimum value of the fund is $5 million. As you indicated in your opening statement, we have legislation which I know you support to increase the level to at least $10 million, the minimum level.

You have indicated you would like it even larger than that and I have taken notice of that. Ms. Mihychuk: What was the amount in the reserve fund in 1996-97? Mr. Newman: Maybe I could be helpful by giving you what the opening balance was April 1, 1997. It was $1 9,458,23 1. 86. There was revenue generated, again, from April 1 to March 31, 1998, in the amount $685,474.86, less the payments that I have already referred to, of $258,900 .38, for a closing balance on March 31, 1998, of $1 9,884,806.34. Of that,

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1935 committed to projects, some of which I outlined in their total, is $4,366, 141 .1 3, for a noncommitted balance of $15 ,51 8,665.2 1. Again, to be helpful, one of the committed items that I did not refer to, because nothing has been paid out of it, is a commitment of $260,000 for an economic development officer in the Local Government District of Lynn Lake. Ms.

Mihychuk: Well, I think that it would be reasonable, given the numbers the minister has provided, to basically say that the Mining Reserve Fund has been used to cover the cost of the MEAP program to the tune of$4 million. I would ask the minister if he views the MEAP projects, the exploration projects, as being in compliance with the mission or the goal of the Mining Reserve Fund. Mr. Newman: Again, to be factual, the transfer to general revenue, the total committed from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) was $6 million. The transfers, or the amount paid for MEAP, was $1,292,556.

We do not yet have the 1997-98 figures of payouts, so the MEAP transferred amounts are external to the uncommitted balance of $15 ,51 8,665.2 1. Ms. Mihychuk: Ifi understand the minister correctly, he just indicated that $6 million was taken out of the Mining Reserve Fund. Can the minister explain why the government felt it was valuable and necessary to put that money into the Mining Reserve Fund, and now, during the last budget, or the year previously, has decided that it is appropriate to take $6 million out of the Mining Reserve Fund? * (15 20) Mr. Newman : I do not want to play with words.

The fact is that the act presumed to protect or intended to protect at least $5 million from any uses other than those stipulated in the statute. It is arguable that utilizing the funds for the MEAP program is consistent with the listed intent but, because that argument was not advanced and there was not any desire to nitpick, the investment stood on its own merits out of general funds by moving what was considered the excess out of the Mining Reserves minimum into general revenue kinds of decisions.

Based on what I have heard from the industry, based on results which are apparent, the use of MEAP dollars has been a very useful and important investment in the development of mining and the generation of exploration activity and therefore revenue to employees, entrepreneurs, and so forth, and suppliers in the province of Manitoba.

With respect to the legislation, which is going to increase the limits to the $10 million, the minimum to $10 million, in the new legislation, I indicated last year, and I listen again this year as to your position about having a right to encroach on the Mining Reserve to do MEAP program, and I am getting the message that your position is that that right is something that you feel should not be there. That would then mean the $10 million would be protected against use for this purpose.

I have indicated to you last year and I indicate to you this year that if you want to have that fund protected in those ways, and the industry agrees with that and generally the communities think that is a better way to go, I have indicated that I am prepared to give serious consideration to that, because all of this is designed to really be a community decision, an industry decision, and designed to fulfill the intent of the legislation to the maximum. Ms. Mihychuk: Is the intent of the government to withdraw again in this fiscal year money out of the Mining Reserve Fund and to what extent? Mr.

New man: So we can make sure we understand and the public understands this. The question that I am responding to is whether or not monies will be spent on MEAP this year in addition to the $1 ,292,556 already paid out. The answer to that is yes. Exactly to what amount is not known at this time. Ms. Mihychuk: Is there the intent by the government to withdraw funds in addition to the money needed to supplement the MEAP program? I understand that last year some of it went into the general revenues. Is that the intent again in the future? Mr. Newman: Just so we make clear.

I have treated the $6 million transferred to general revenue for the purposes of an informed conversation between you and I as being committed dollars out of the Mining

1936 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITO�-=B:...:. A-=-- ------=- A:.r:p.:...: ri_:_:1 2::..: 1-'-, �19�9_.:::_8 Community Reserve. So that is in addition to what is a noncommitted balance of $15 ,5 18,665. 21. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the minister see the balance of the money in the reserve fund falling below $15 million? Mr. Newman: That would depend on how aggressively and successf ully and consistent with the intent of the legislation applicants to the Mining Community Reserve make cases for funds to be advanced.

For example, the Local Government District of Lynn Lake, through their mayor, put through a very persuasive case over the past year which has resulted in a multiyear investment commitment subject to certain performance measures of$260,000. I am directly, and through my staff and through you and through this process, encouraging applications from communities that are victims of the suspension or discontinuation of mmmg operations, encouraging creaiivity and encouraging real efforts to build a healthy sustainable economy not dependent on mining to the greatest extent possible. Ms.

Mihychuk: If I understand correctly, in 1997, $244,000 was taken from mining taxes and put into the Mining Reserve Fund to supplement the fund. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: That is correct. Ms. Mihychuk: In 1998, an estimate must have been made for the '98-99 year as to the government's commitment to the Mining Reserve Fund. Is the minister prepared to share what we anticipate will be going into the Mining Reserve Fund? *( 1530) Mr.

Newman: I can give you some figures again that might be helpful, not directly responsive to your question, but the magnitude of mining taxes which in the discretion of the Minister of Finance, the government of the day, has been transferred out of mining taxes into the fund from 1970-7 1, March 31 fiscal year, through March 31, 19 97, is $15 ,7 44,541. The total interest earned on that principal amount, if you will, in its various incremental forms over the years is $15 ,210,935 for the period 1970-71 fiscal year through March 31, 1998. Ms.

Mihychuk: Is the MEAP program dependent on monies available in the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: I would put it another way. It is a portion of mining taxes which have been earned which have initially found their way into the Mining Community Reserve Fund and then have been moved out of that fund, the total committed amount of $6 million, and then, once in the general revenue, utilized for MEAP purposes. Ms. Mihychuk: Given that the balance in the Mining Reserve Fund now is $15 .5 million approximately, is the continuance of the MEAP program dependent on the balance available in the Mining Reserve Fund?

For instance, is there a base level? If the Mining Reserve Fund is tapped to the point of $10 million, which will be our new minimum, will that mean the ultimate end of the MEAP program, or is there a direct relationship like that for the funding of the MEAP program? Mr. Newman : We are, at this very time, in the process of doing a final evaluation ofthe MEAP program. We have input from industry, and the department will be making recommendations regarding the continuation and modification of the program in the next month or so, I think, before the end of May, is it not? Before the end of May 1998.

Part of that review will include a consideration of whether the Mining Community Reserve Fund should or should not continue to offset additional expenditures for MEAP. So this discussion is relevant and helpful, as is input from the community. I frankly do hope that the legislation we are putting forward might generate some discussion, which I invite.

I am open to making modifications to that legislation, as I say, to work in the public interest to the advantage of the affected communities and mining development in the province which is designed to benefit all communities, particularly in the North of Manitoba, who derive benefits from successful mining in or around them. Ms. Mihychuk: Well, I guess my

interpretation of the Mining Reserve Fund, it is more limited, that the purpose was to provide a cushion or a fund that would be there for those workers and the community that is going to be directly impacted by mine closure or a shutdown for a while. So that is a point of deviation,

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1937 and we have been there, so I do not wish to go over that. We will have an opportunity during our legislative debate. I see that the minister wishes to respond to that before we move on. Mr. Newman : Before we do move on, and thanks for your indulgence in allowing me to make a comment, but I would like to put on the record what my position is so that in your constituency-! see the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Jennissen) here now-and in your responsibility as critic, responsible for all the certainly the New-Democratic-P arty-represented constituencies that wish to represent views that can get the best from this minister and this government. I may or may not be of a different point of view than you, and maybe a different approach, but

whereas there is no question that the Mining Reserve is there to be there in a time of crisis to address major negative impacts of a closing, I repeat and expand on some of my earlier thoughts which are that proactive steps, creative steps to be less dependent on mining may offer a longer solution and healthier, more sustainable communities.

Every time I meet with people from the North who are focusing on long-term health and sustainability, they make that point to me, and I just listen, but to make that even very, very clear, knowing that many mines have identifiable mmtmum lifetimes-and I have encouraged communities to look at them in many cases as bonuses-it is very helpful to have another reason for existing and have a long-term vision that perhaps excludes mining as a portion of it. * (1 540) If effectively a heritage fund or foundation could be created out of what is a bonus, a windfall by communities, that is something that could helpfully ensure a long-term healthy and sustainable future for communities.

So that kind of approach I am, rightly or wrongly, actively encouraging because I am getting the message that that is the desire in community-driven ways now, and it is causing a certain amount of, I think, positive, exciting activities in communities like Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Leaf Rapids that have been exposed to the recent possibility that Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting might discontinue its operations. So that is where many of the most positive, creative ideas are coming. Lynn Lake is another recent community that, as I have already indicated, has been invested in out of the Community Reserve Fund. Ms.

Mihychuk: I thank the minister. I have with me a colleague who represents Flin Flon. I am wondering if it would be appropriate to ask some general comments in terms of the area that he represents, and I look for some discretion here, rather than waiting maybe until the Mines department and hope that we can indulge some time for him. Mr.

Chairperson: I would like to advise the members of the committee that the correct procedure for considering items in the Committee of Supply is in the line-by-line manner, and in order to skip ahead or revert back to lines already passed, unanimous consent of the committee is required. Now, I have allowed some latitude with the questioning that has been going on, but I have been tempted to interrupt the proceedings and the questioning with regard to this. We are on line 23 .l .(b )

(2) Other Expenditures $75,500, and ifthere are any other questions pertaining to that, then I would certainly entertain any questions. If there are not, then maybe we might consider passing that and then go on to seeking unanimous consent, if there is some area of the Estimates order that we wanted to address out of tum. What is the wish of the committee? Ms. Mihychuk: I look for clarification. I have another colleague who represents the community of Thompson who also wishes to have an opportunity to discuss the situation there for Inco.

Unfortunately, he is not able to be here at the present time which leads us into a dilemma because we do-if we moved into the Mines Branch, would we be obligated to then complete that whole section, or we could move through the two of them and revert back into that area. Mr. Chairperson: Just for the benefit of the committee, as long as there is unanimous consent of the committee to revert back or to move forward, certainly that is all right by the Chair.

That is acceptable, and I guess in light of what we are looking at here, if there is anything that we can move in being accommodating, to pass any items, certainly with the wishes of the committee, the Chair will be somewhat lenient in respect to that, to entertaining, moving back after a line

1938 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 has been passed. So I just offer that, you know, subject to the committee's approval. Ms. Mihychuk: I have no problem with that. The

section under 23 .1 .(

a) Minister' s Salary and 23 .1 .(b), I believe is where we are, under Executive Support, I use it as an opportunity to look at broad-based policy issues, and I have completed that

section as far as I need to. We will have other opportunities to go into more detail, so I am prepared to pass that section. Mr. Chairperson: Just for clarification, we are on 23. I. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(2) Other Expenditures. Is there willingness of the committee to pass that portion of the Estimates? An Honourable Member: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: Item 23 .l .(b)

(2) Other Expenditures $75,5 00-pass. Item 23 .l .(

c) Financial and Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $622,500. Ms. Mihychuk: I would ask for unanimous approval to move to the Mines Branch where we could have discussions on Flin Flon and Hudson Bay Smelting. Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent to move to

section 23.2. Energy and Mineral Resources (

c) Mines (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 ,370,900? Is there unanimous consent to move to that portion? [agreed] Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): I realize I inconvenienced the proceedings somewhat, but I am very glad you allowed me a chance to ask a few questions. I promise to be fairly brief. First of all, I am very happy to see that the town of Lynn Lake is getting some money out of the Mining Reserve Fund to help with its municipal costs. That is certainly a very positive direction, and I am very happy to see that. I want to thank the minister on behalf of the people of Lynn Lake.

The concern, of course, I have is other mmmg communities, one-indu stry towns that have their ups and downs, as we saw in Snow Lake. They were down and out early 1990s and now doing very well; Bissett, down and out and, hopefully, doing well now; Lynn Lake is certainly still in some tough times. But the community that concerns me very much at this moment is Leaf Rapids because it appears that, from what HBM&S spokesmen are telling me at any rate, by 2003 that orebody will be exhausted for all their purposes, and that would mean that the main reason for that town to exist would appear to be gone.

I am just asking the minister; in the past we have worked out some arrangements to stave off that disaster. I am fully aware, you know, that at some point in time the mining reserves will disappear in any given area, but in the case of Leaf Rapids, particularly, when 2003 hits, are there any plans in place, any funding in place to help tide that community over, to cushion that community, specifically from the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: This is a very timely question, and your analysis coincides with what my staff have advised me.

Ef forts have been made by Geological Services staff to help determine other opportunities, but, predictably, if the information we get from HBM&S turns out to be valid, the life of that particular operation, that particular mine will conclude by 2003, approximately.

This is the kind of proactive time when I would hope, encourage you, enco urage Lynn Lake-I am sorry, encourage Leaf Rapids community members, many of whom I have met and are very capable people, to look to applying to the Mining Reserve to help them develop an alternative to mining and have it in readiness, in operation for that very real probability. We, in terms of philosophy, will respond to community-driven approaches, which, in terms of philosophy, in all my responsibilities, I favour.

We encourage, we facilitate and that is what we do through my remarks now and through you and the official opposition critic-tra nsmit, communicate to the people in Leaf Rapids and vicinity. Mr. Jenuissen: I thank the minister for the answer. One of the concerns I have, of course, is that not only for the sake of the community itself, but I am thinking ofthe Sherridon line that we managed to pull out of the fire. When I say we, a lot of players, stakeholders and certainly northerners were involved in making sure that

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1939 line remained viable. Now, if the material sent out by Ruttan no longer travels from Lynn Lake south to the smelter, that may indeed jeopardize that line. I am just guessing. I hope it does not, but if that happens then that would jeopardize the people in Pukatawagan, perhaps even, you know, the Tolko operation. It is like a domino. If one key domino falls, it could affect a lot of others. That concerns me a great deal. That is not just maybe hardship for Leaf Rapids, but it would have some tremendous negative spinoffs in other directions as well.

I wonder if the minister would comment on that. Mr.

Newman : When a program, an idea emerges from a community or there is a desire to involve the provincial government through any one of several different departments in helping develop a future in comprehensive ways, the Department of Rural Development will characteristically assume the lead, as they have done in Lynn Lake, for example, with respect to the funding of the economic development officer over time, and if it is a bigger picture issue involving a number of departments of government and there is a plan or an approach which would attract the talents and experience of the Economic Development Board Secretariat, they would become involved.

I would invite, again, the community through its various leaders to come forward. I know that I recently met with the Community Futures people from your area of Flin Flon. I met with the Greenstone Community Futures people sharing this kind of information with them, and I am willing to do that at any time, if not to directly assist, to certainly facilitate through staff and work in conjunction with you as the MLA, to try and co-ordi nate a multidepartmental effort to address the challenge of, as I say, a probable closing with all its implications. *

(1550) As I say, I find this a useful process to invite that, but I do not want to impose a government- driven initiative. I want it to be community driven, but I share your concerns about their future. They should be collaborating. They should be looking at the big picture, and I am very pleased to facilitate that on their behalf. As I say, in all my conversations I let them know that. You should know that approximately 10.2 percent, according to my staffs calculation, of MEAP money has been spent in the Lynn Lake-Leaf Rapids area since the beginning of MEAP in 1995-96. Mr. Jennissen: Mr.

Chair, I attended the last mining convention, as I always try to do, and I was very enlightened with some of the presentations, particularly the exploration initiatives. But in reference to what the minister just said, spending 10 percent ofMEAP money in that area still seems terribly low, because obviously there is a major community at risk.

I know Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting is doing considerable exploration in that area, as well, but considering that that is a community at risk, should we not be spending a lot more money in that area, in the Greenstone area, in the area where the threatened community actually is? I know a lot of effort and energy is going in further to the east and the north, but even if there is a major find, you are still a heck of a long ways away from a major existing community, as far as I know. Mr.

Newman: As you know, MEAP reacts, responds to applications, so the interest is really demonstrated by the experts, the explorers and the mining-the explorationists out there who are taking the risk of investing a majority of their money or publicly subscribed money.

If what you are suggesting is we should have an additional incentive to explore in known areas rather than in the unknown areas like the Northern Superior, I have answered that question on a number of different occasions, and the position of the department at this time is that the rationale for the additional amount is-rather than redressing, in effect, failing situations, the inducement is to encourage investment in areas which have impediments to explorationists going in there unless they are lured into it.

The kinds of impediments that I understand exist in the Northern Superior include the large overburden, the lack of infrastructure accessibility and simply the newness of it. Even the geological data is not as complete in that area as in what are the very well known areas in the Flin Flon, Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids, Snow Lake kinds of areas. There is not a whole bunch of difficulty in attracting investment in those areas

1940 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITO_B_A� ____ ___::__:A=p=ri1:....: 2::....: 12...., =19_:_9.::.__8 because of a lack of knowledge.

So I have concluded that it would not even be likely to attract more, and if it did attract more, it would not necessarily be in the best interests, one, of getting the big find, which I have said could make a big difference, and secondly, a big difference in terms of the attractiveness is Manitoba as a place to invest, to attract attention, attract the excitement, romance, but it may be using MEAP in ways that I have indicated that I do not support, and that is rather than making up for a negative view of the mining environment in the province, it would be closer to the kind of handout designed to partner with the people who know the underground well, know the area well.

So for those two reasons, it would just be inconsistent with the philosophy which so far has driven MEAP. I indicated yesterday that I take the approach that MEAP, once it has accomplished its goal of restoring the positive good will in this province, I am not inclined to be supportive of that as the best way to spend money. I would then tend to emphasize spending it more on geological data and that kind of thing.

To give you some specifics, the breakdown of the expenditure ofMEAP dollars by region really supports the natural continued attractiveness-in spite of the extra inducement to invest in Northern Superior- the natural attraction of the Flin Flon, Snow Lake, Thompson nickel belt, and even Lynn Lake, Leaf Rapids areas. The breakdown of the areas ofNorthern Superior, 12.2 percent; Flin Flon/Snow Lake, 34. 6 percent; Lynn Lake/LeafRapids, 10.2 percent; Thompson nickel belt, 24.4 percent, is quite instructive, I think. Mr. Jennissen: Perhaps I did not understand it quite clearly.

Is the minister referring to MEAP expenditures percentage? Mr. Newman: Yes. Mr. Jennissen: What would that look like if we talked in terms of the department's own expertise in staff and geological crews and surveys and so on? What percentage would be devoted to this at-ri sk area? *

(1600) Mr. Newman: The Geological Services Branch's allocations for field activity expenditures are: Northern Superior, 37.5 percent; next largest, Flin Flon, 22.6 percent; Thompson, 20.6 percent; Lynn Lake, 0.5 percent. My comment, in addition to those facts, would be that we have a concerted effort which is consistent with the industry desire, request to have us provide more information for the lesser-known areas.

Once again, I can share with you that anecdotally in my meetings with mining explorationists, on an international basis many of them, over the many, many decades, have had very considerable experience with the Flin Flon, Lynn Lake, Snow Lake, Leaf Rapids kinds of areas. So in my conversations with them I can almost picture their minds being able to see what the underground looks like, but they do not have that same appreciation for the Northern Superior.

Of course, there are vast areas there that have not received the attention that the other areas have, and we are hoping that what can emerge there will be another Flin Flon, another Thompson, another Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids, for example. Mr. David Faurschou, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Jennissen: That is actually a very good point the minister makes, but some of the experts suggest that that will never happen again, that mining is now in such a phase, a technological phase that mining will never require huge communities even if there is a large find.

I do not know if that is true or not, that is just what some of the people tell me. I am just wondering if that is indeed the direction of the future, where it is no longer going to be labour intensive-it is kind of speculative, I realize that-b ut highly reliant on technology. If that is the case, then maybe even future big finds in fairly remote areas may not necessarily lead to communities anymore, maybe some flying in and flying out stuff, but the kind of Thompsons and the Leaf Rapids and the Flin Flons may be something of the past according to some mining experts. I really do not know.

I wish someone could give me a more definitive response to that. Mr. Newman: This would be a very useful exercise to discuss with people in the industry, particularly suppliers of all the new technol ogy and the explorationist kind of equipment that can do things that

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1941 were never dreamed of before. So, I mean, if that is not the case, that is, if it is not necessary or it simply does not happen that a major new community emerges, it will depend on the creativity, the ingenuity, the diligence of any northern communities that are nearby to put forward an approach to doing mining which will make the costs of doing that mining, doing exploration, world competitive. That seems to be the way of the future.

Whether it is Northern Affairs communities, whether it is First Nations communities of the North, whether it is Thompson, Flin Flon, whatever is now an existing centre with an infrastructure, and therefore competencies and natural advantage which they can capitalize on to the benefit of, as I say, more cost effective mining and exploration, it will be a win-win.

I have heard many times ma jor mining companies in this jurisdiction and others talk about if they have reasoned and helpful well- trained supportive communities, First Nations communities, Northern Affairs communities, urban industrial communities, which want to work with them and provide them services, they will take advantage of that because you cannot overcome extra costs of transportation from a major distance.

So there are many, many opportunities without, say, building a new city or a new town, many opportunities for communities that just have to be more proximate to exploration and development, and that is reflected now in the participation of First Nations in doing work for even junior exploration companies, Northern Affairs communities, the greatest extent possible trying to look at it in ways that they can be of service to mines in urban industrial communities having a developed infrastructure, trained people, a much higher percentage of high school and university graduates than surrounding areas.

I think there will be positive benefits no matter what form new mining takes for them-and why should they not be?-with their knowledge of the North and so forth, the creators of the best ideas and the generators of the most cost-ef fective solutions. Their local knowledge can also help. So I think it can be very much a win win, and the future will be to their benefit more or less depending on how they approach it. Mr. Jennissen : I guess part of it is we also have to look for a balance. Certainly, I am very much in favour of exploring newer areas, hoping to find that mother lode of all mother lodes.

I hear many a prospector from Bissett to Sherridon talking about that kind of stuff, and certainly we want to move into those areas that have been less explored. But at the same time, I think, there has to be the balance of existing communities that have to be protected, perhaps treated with some kind of a cherished status. I do not know if you would call it mollycoddling or not, but you maybe need some special kind of treatment.

I do know that if infrastructure keeps deteriorating or, you know, is removed-we are talking about housing or town centres or roads or railroads, whatever-th en you reach the point of no return, and Northerners complain enough about PR 39 1. Lord knows what is going to happen if there is no Leaf Rapids or a very small Leaf Rapids. We are having trouble getting a dime now, we are going to have trouble getting a nickel later on.

That is certainly one of the concerns that I have in that whole region and would be somewhat at risk. * (1610 ) There are many people not directly involved with mining, or perhaps retired miners, who do not wish to leave that region. I hope a lot more effort will be put into place to diversify. I do not know to what degree we can use the Mining Reserve Fund for creative initiatives to diversify, like some of the people perhaps have simplistic directions or answers for this problem. I know there is one gentleman in Flin Flon that delights to tell me, look, there is not a problem here.

If HBM&S should leave and we are out 2,000 jobs, all we have to do is find 10 more areas that each create 200 jobs. But, you know, I have a heck of a time finding 10 areas where we can employ 200 people. In the case of Leaf Rapids, well, there are not nearly that many people employed, but certainly I would like to see that very creative town survive and survive well, particularly, in light of the fact that the government pushes tourism a lot.

I know Europeans and Japanese people and a lot of people that come into Manitoba would like to go up North, and part of what prohibits them from doing so is the nature of that road. So, yes, I would hope that there would be some creative ways or some access to money,

1942 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 21, 1998 perhaps via the Mining Reserve Fund, that would stabilize places like Leaf Rapids. Mr. Newman: It may be that there is some difference in terms of the philosophy of the official opposition and the government that I am part of in terms of the approach it would take to community development.

I have indicated, perhaps before you arrived here today, to the official opposition critic that the approach that my department takes consistent with the government policy is to have to the greatest extent possible community-driven, community-based kinds of initiatives and solutions to which we will respond collaboratively and in facilitative ways. One thing that is inconsistent with the philosophy that drives this department through this minister is that you do not want to perpetuate something that all market forces and all indicators show will not have a future walking a certain path.

The best way to ensure a future is for a community to have a long-term vision which they are committed to and they are working towards and they are excited about. If they do not have it, no matter what support is given, it will simply be temporary transitional funding which really is not as well invested as it could be if there were a positive vision instead.

There are many of the communities of the North and elsewhere-gosh, in southern Manitoba-that have lost their original reason for being, and they have not rediscovered a new one, sometimes simply cease to exist as anything but a retirement community or whatever. The people of the North who are representative of self-r eliance and have a capacity for self-sufficiency that sometimes is superior to anywhere else in the province have enormous resources at their disposal which may or may not involve mining at all.

We encourage them all to identify what their assets are, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are and develop a long-term vision. The Department of Rural Development plays a role in that. The Round Table on Environment and Economy through sustainable development policies that have emerged out of that and are within government address that. The Economic Development Board Secretariat addresses that, and to the extent that the Mining Community Reserve Fund can be used as a funder, it is a fund of a kind which is not available in other departments.

So there is, in effect, an opportunity for those communities to access funding through a proven plan that can help them move toward that vision I am talking about and a sustainable future. Mr. Jennissen : If I understand the minister correctly then, a plan such as the one set out or the vision set out by the Grass River Tourism Corridor Inc. people which is rather ambitious and far- reaching and does encompass a large

section of the North would be able to access funds from the Mining Reserve Fund, because certainly they are having trouble getting necessary funds from I, T and T. These are the people pushing ecotourism, doing research on the history of the area, I think tremendous potential there, and they are a little bit frustrated with the lack of funding. Could those people possibly access some of the funds from the Mining Reserve Fund? Mr. Newman: The simply answer is yes. The broader answer is that any application will be considered on its own merits.

I have indicated how I am challenging the people of the North that are in these situations to be as creative as possible to contribute to their being healthy, sustainable communities, and my own sympathies, my own inclination for support would be precisely for those kinds of creative ideas. Mr. Jennissen: I would like to switch now to the Flin Flon region directly. Flin Flon is the second largest mining community in Manitoba. Certainly, we did go through some very scary moments in the last several months about whether or not that region would have a future.

I think we all tried to be as circumspect-l ike we walked on eggshells. We did not want to jeopardize any negotiation process between unions and HBM&S and so on. I gather at this stage that 20 12 will be a go. At least, certainly, all of us in the North are hoping that that will be the case. I do not know if there is any privileged or confidential information on this, but just in general terms I wonder if the minister would be willing to comment about the government's role in expediting that

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 1943 process. Certainly, we want 2012 to succeed for everybody's sake. Mr. Newman : So you will understand the process that HBM&S followed in relation to the province, they wanted support of the province for their 2012 initiative, and I, personally, and my staff and other departments of government and the Economic Development Board have all had presentations made by HBM&S. As a result of that process, we have communicated to the company officials a response as to where we stand as a government in relation to a number of aspects of their Project 2012.

We had them do the quantifying of the benefit to them, so that we were not in, you know, our calculations-your calculations dialogue, and they have been very forthright and very co-ope rative in working through this. The items we have communicated back to them are the identifiable new mines that have potential. In this business, as you can appreciate, a new mine having potential for realization often means are they going to invest blank millions of dollars in something and so forth.

But in their plan, which you probably have seen and the community has seen, they were hypoth esizing that there are two new mines there. Given the new mines that they have described, or the potential mines they have described, we look at new mine status using their figures as having $1 1.4-million benefit to the company through 20 12. *

(1620) We have indicated that that new mine status in the circumstances outlined would be forthcoming. New investment tax credit for the two new mines would, using their figures, be $9.2 million benefits to 20 12. New investment credit, a zinc plant expansion has been valued by them as $4.2 million. The budgetary changes which are not custom tailored for HBM&S, but do benefit them, would have a value to 20 12 of $1. 3 million.

The motive fuel tax exemption through 20 12 would have a benefit of$6.6 million for a total of $32.7 million, in effect, being contributed by the taxpayers of the province of Manitoba, based on their figures to 20 12. I am reluctant to deal with in any detail two other items which are under consideration which we have not yet formally communicated to HBM&S and we continue to discuss with them, so I would appreciate, for HBM&S' sake and the communities out there as well as us, be sensitive to the fact that they would involve a certain amount of confidentiality and I would prefer not to discuss this at this time.

But other than that, that is where we stand in the process of addressing the 20 12 issue. Mr. Jennissen: Just basically one last little question. The two mines referred to are Chisel north then and 777? [interjection] The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): I might just recognize the member for Flin Flon first, prior to his question being posed, please. Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry, Mr. Chair. I was just, for clarification, the two mines then are Chisel north and 777? Mr. Newman: Those are the names that have been shared with us as being names of those two identified potential mines, yes. Mr.

Jennissen: I thank the minister for indulging me to let me ask some questions. [interjection] Sorry for jumping the gun here; a little edgy in the North lately. I want to thank the minister for answering the questions that are certainly very relevant to the communities that I represent up there, and I would like to turn it back to the real expert here, my critic in Energy and Mines. Ms. Mihychuk: I would like to suggest that we go back to the order of Estimates according to the outline in the book, and we can move along through the department, I think, with a deal more haste than has been.

Since my questions have been broad ranging and there has been a degree of latitude by the Chair, many of the policy questions have been answered, and I would like to go through the department according to the Estimates book. The next one I understand is Administration and Finance. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Faurschou): Financial and Administrative Services 23 .1. ( c). Is it the unanimous consent of the committee members to revert back to item l. (

c) Financial and Administrative

1944 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1998 Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits? There is. [agreed] Ms. Mihychuk: This is the area that I believe held or is responsible for the computer services. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that the three computer people that are with the department will be maintained after the Systemhouse project is enacted in full. Can I ask what type of supports they will be providing? Mr. Newman: Systems design and programming. Ms. Mihychuk: So the three individuals will be maintained, and then there will be a service contract with Systemhouse. That contract will be worth what amount?

I understand there may be a first year to capitalize or get into the program, and then we anticipate an ongoing service contract with Systemhouse. Can the minister give us a detail of that so that there would be a-c an the minister provide the salary for the three individuals that would be part of the computer support that the department is going to have? The rest is Systemhouse. So if I could have an outline of the two components for computer supports the department will be maintaining. Mr. Newman: The salaries of the three staff, that is, manager and two computer programmers, will total $1 74,500. Ms.

Mihychuk: That includes- just for clarification, I am sorry my mind had moved onto the activity identification for the branch-was 174. That includes the service contract for Systemhouse as well as the three? Mr. Newman: No, I thought you had asked for the salaries of the three. That is the salaries of the three, $1 74,500. *

(1630) Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister now provide what we would expect the service contract, after we adopt the Systemhouse program, to be on an annual basis? Mr. Newman: The net full year costs, which I gave you yesterday, would be $279, 176, and the content of the services provided pursuant to the Systemhouse contract relates to desktop management which encompasses all tasks associated with buying, installing, configuring, maintaining, and using personal computer hardware and software. It also includes training support and selected software programs, telephone support, and deskside support.

The support services are specifically designed to help employees resolve issues quickly, regardless of whether the problem is software- or hardware-rela ted, and the desktop management contract also provides for maintenance and support of all personal computer networks and associated printers. Ms. Mihychuk: Will the minister provide the contract fee. the service fee, that we pay to Systemhouse for their trouble-shooting work that we now contract out? So, on an hourly basis, if we need to get Systemhouse to come in to provide support, what would be the hourly rate paid by the department? Mr.

Newman: The charges are on a per unit basis, not on an hourly basis, and the charge is $2,600 per year per unit, and there are 150 units. Ms. Mihychuk: It is my understanding that the department at the present time has not been included in the desktop project as yet. Right now, as government policy or procedure, we are moving towards it, I understand that. But at the present time, we have departmental units and we obtain trouble-shooting expertise to the tune of $3 5,000, approximately, and that is on an as-needed basis. Is that correct? Mr.

Newman: The answer to the question is that the service provided by Systemhouse is anticipated to . be, and, in fact, it is now being provided and currently ts a better quality, more comprehensive, longer hour 24- hour-a-day service. As I outlined yesterday, the trouble-s hooter function performed by an employee previously was not serving the needs of the department to the degree of effectiveness which this new opportunity provides. Ms. Mihychuk: I refer back to yesterday's Hansard, and I did ask if the department was receiving services presently from Systemhouse. Even though we had not

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1945 moved into getting all the new units and part of the whole deal, it was my understanding that we receive supports from Systemhouse. That indeed were the numbers indicated in the Estimates, through pages 21, 25, 27, 29, 31 and so on, identifying a certain cost for the Systemhouse services provided, so presumably this is related to the service they provide. Is that on an as needed basis until we adopt the full desktop program? Mr. Newman: Yes. Ms. Mihychuk: It is also my understanding that that amount then relates to the amount of service they provide.

How many hours of service has Systemhouse provided to the department? Mr. Newman: I am advised that we do not have that information handy or put together, but it could be done if that is your request. Ms. Mihychuk: The amounts that are identified in the Estimates are for anticipated service calls. Is that correct? Mr. Newman: As I thought, it was made clear yesterday, we are in a transition, so they are providing support under the existing hardware and transitioning into the new desktop hardware and software, and they are providing support for both.

They will then provide full service on that higher quality 24-hou r-a-day basis for the desktop system when the transition is over. Ms. Mihychuk: How long has the department been accessing Systemhouse to provide for this trouble shooting? Mr. Newman: My information is that that was in November of 1997. Ms. Mihychuk: I would be interested, and I will take up the minister on his offer, to see the number of calls that were placed by the department to Systemhouse. Of course, that relates to the anticipated supports that we will be using from Systemhouse.

It looks like the department was able to sustain itself with four salaried individuals for approximately $200,000. The Systemhouse contract and the additional employees that we are going to keep on total $453,000, so it is again just to complete our assessment of whether we are getting good value for our money, how much support we are going to be getting from Systemhouse for the department. So I do appreciate the minister's response that that information will be provided. I am going to provide the minister an opportunity to respond to that. I am prepared to move on to another area. Mr.

Newman: You have now made the request to provide that information. We will provide that information to the best of our ability. *

(1640) Ms. Mihychuk: In the areas of personnel, can the minister report on the goals in terms of affirmative action? We did talk a little bit about the aboriginal targets that were set, but in the other sectors, can we have a report? Mr. Newman: The employment equity workf orce analysis reveals that with respect to women, the long term objective to the year 2006 is 50 percent. The start point of the process of analysis was March 1993, and the percentage at that time was 41.72 percent. The percentage as of March 1998 is 4 7. 83 percent. Aboriginal long -term objective, year 2006, is currently 10 percent.

The March 1993 percentage was 3. 31 percent. The March 1998 percent is 5.80 percent. With respect to disabled, the long-term objective, year 2006, is currently 7 percent. The March 1993 percent was 2.6 5 percent. The March 1998 percent is 3.6 2 percent. The visible minority long-term objective, year 2006, 6 percent. March 1993 was 3.3 1 percent. March 1998 is 3. 62 percent. Ms. Mihychuk: Has consideration been given to changing the aboriginal target, based on the population involved in the mining community?

The 10 percent is, I believe, within the range of the overall population of Manitoba, but when we look at the mining community, the majority of mines occur in the north, the aboriginal population is significantly higher, and I would argue or

1946 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITO_B_A ______ ------'-' A=p=ri::....::l 2=-=l_z_, 2..:19c.::_9-=-8 look for that discussion that that target be, in fact, increased. Mr. Newman: When we achieve the target of 10 percent, hopefully before 2006, the department would like to move that percentage higher to better reflect the aboriginal population percentage in the province. Ms. Mihychuk: Does the department have any plans to increase its aboriginal workforce within the department by providing training or education programs? Mr.

Newman: Based on response to a department employment equity questionnaire, an aboriginal cultural awareness session is being planned for departmental staff. The department's employment equity plan incorporates department -wide objectives and also individual branch plans and commitments.

Examples of branch commitments include management and technical development for internal staff, exploring opportunities to second or employ geological assistance from First Nations communities to work with senior geologists in field camps, participating in university mentorship programs and career symposia, and providing work experience placements for volunteers, trainees, et cetera. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can the minister tell us how many aboriginal people are presently enrolled in geology at the university or geological sciences at the university who potentially would come into the professional sector for the department? Mr. New man: We not only do not have that information, but we sought that information from the university and could not get it. *

(1650) Ms. Mihychuk: This is an area that I think needs enhancement. I do not think that Manitoba has been particularly proactive in providing opportunities for First Nations people to access universities and secondary education, particularly in the mining sector. Again, we are looking to a goal, which I think the minister and I agree on, to getting aboriginals involved in a meaningful way in the mining industry. One of those examples is working for the department, and they are often the lead role in exploration and meeting with industry and being out in the commumtles.

So opportunities, I think, need to be developed. We have not been successful in having those opportunities fall into our lap. We are going to, it seems to me, take certain initiatives to recruit young people into the field of geology, and I think it is going to have to be more than providing opportunities for field season. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair I have a personal story I would like to relate.

In the summer when I was in Snow Lake, I had an opportunity to take a Red River Community College student with me, but the individual had, I think a Grade 9, had dropped out of school in Grade 9, Grade 10, and although he saw it as a career that he would love to get into, the idea that he would have to complete his high school and then go to university and then perhaps get a master's degree to become a geologist seemed impossible for the individual who was financially strapped and, unfortunately, had curtailed his education.

So he was employed-it was actually a training program or an opportunity from Red River to provide that experience. I think that individual needs the supports of a program like Access, that indeed Access, 1 believe, provided opportunities in the engineering field, but maybe needs to be expanded to include mining so that individuals can be given the opportunity to get into that sector and provide a meaningful role.

So 1 look forward to the minister's comments and initiatives, and perhaps we could look to seeking our First Nations elders and leaders as to their ideas for providing opportunities or getting their young people involved in mining. Perhaps we can have a more comprehensive program which does develop opportunities for First Nations people. Mr.

Newman: I am not beyond examining any realistic approaches to stimulating interest, providing encouragement, and doing whatever is reasonable and responsible to get more aboriginal people involved in geology and other kinds of fields that are going to result in greater aboriginal involvement in the career in mining and related fields. A couple of things that are not apparent from the statistics, but I personally, together with Native Affairs

April 21, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1947

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	57a88dda70acc69fd14309e6c230fb94651d355f

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