Manitoba Hansard — 18 May 1993 (Sitting 65, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-65

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Speslcer VOL. XLII No. 65 • 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, MAY 18, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHE EMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon . DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon . EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Ji m, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon . FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILL ESHAM MER, Harold, Hon . GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKE S, George LAMOUREUX , Kevin LATHL IN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Ji m MANNESS, Clay ton, Hon. MARTINDAL E, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon . MciNTOSH, Linda, Ho n. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon . ORCHARD, Donald, Hon . PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZN IK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-L EIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUE NCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3131 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 18, 1993 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gertrude Flett, Susan Head, Elaine Richard and others requesting the Family Services minister (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding for the friendship centres in Manitoba. *** Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Carroll Henderson, Lloyd E. Besselt, Adam Stupak and others reques ting the Manit oba Min ister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers as soon as possible on the issue of removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board. ** * Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Saada Mohammed, Steven Verbaly, Askalu Nedele and others requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Lathlin).

It comp lies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and WHER EAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHER EAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHERE AS prevent ative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable memb er (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highes� rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program ; and WHER EAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and

WHEREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost- effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and

WHEREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and

3132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 18, 1993 WHE REAS preve ntative health care is an essential component of health care reform. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WH EREAS over 55 ,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and WH EREAS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Children's Dental Program; and WH EREAS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 years and has been recognized as extremely cost- effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WH EREAS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dentists, nurses and assistants providing this service; and WHERE AS preve ntative health care is an essential component of health care reform.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 1993-94 budget. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 1935; and WHER EAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and WHERE AS this is ano ther step tow ards dismantling the board; and

WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 1989, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wheat Board , with the 11 -memb er advisory comm ittee to the boar d or the pr oducer s themselves; and

WHEREAS the federal minister has said that there will be no pleb iscite of farmers before the announcement is made. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest the Man itoba Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible. • (1 335) PRESENTING REP ORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Da cqu ay (Cha ir person of Committees): Mr. Spea ke r, the Com mittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the R.H.G. Bonnycastle School twenty-eight Grade 5 students under the direction of Melaney Vermeylen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodrey). On behaH of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

May 18, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3133 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Churchill Rocket Range Status Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in the 1991 Speech from the Throne, the government stated the Churchill Research Range is a provincial priority for our government.

Un for tuna te ly, yes terday we received confirmation that in spite of the fact that private interests were willing to put some $600 ,000 into this investment, an investment that is competing with locations in Alaska for the siting of rockets for environmental and communication pu rposes, it will not receive funding from the Western Diversification project. Mr. Speaker, it is crucial for Manitoba to win this competition against other northern locations, such as the proposal in Alaska, and certainly we have always supported the priority of that site and the activity of the community to get that project going.

I would like to ask the government, in light of the denial of the funds from the Western Diversification Program, what is the status of the proposal and the priority of the government as articulated in the Speech from the Throne in '91 ? Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the news service report indicates, we understand that the Department of Western Diversification has rejected the request for $60,000 in funding.

We as a government, of course, are very, very supportive of continuing to work with the community of Churchill to find any and all avenues in which we can provide economic activity, whether it be through our Arctic Bridge program to try and employ greater use of the Port of Churchill, whether it be through our efforts in tourism or whether it be through our efforts with respect to this particular initiative. We do have an offer on the table, I believe, from the RED I program that was put forward making our commitment.

I have personally had discussions with representatives of the private sector funding, including Mr. Richardson. So we are totally supportive of this. We are di sappoint ed in the respons e of West ern Diversification and, Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that we will attempt to carry this further to convince the federal dep artment that this is indeed a very worthwhile project. Churchill Rocket Range REDI Program Funding Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Spea ke r, the government signed an Order-in Council to participate in a joint feasibility study on the environmental compo nents of this project.

This Order-in -Council was signed in '92. It expired March 31 ,1 993. The contingency on the Order-i n-Council was for the community itself to raise the equivalent of the $75,000 the government had pledged. They, in fact, raised and pledged over a hundred thousand dollars for this environmental process which is a part of the feasibility, the other feasibility study, of course, being the $1 .2-m illion proposal with Western Diversification.

I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact the money has not flowed from the provincial governmen t afte r being comm itted in the Order-in-Council, what is the status of those funds for that environmental review process which has had a partnership with the community through their own fundraising activity? * (1 340) Hon. Leonard Derkach {Minis ter of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, I can indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that the approval for the money from the REDI program is in place and, indeed, it was at the request of the applicant that the money be held until such time that there was some confirmation of the Western Diversification funds. As a government, we are prepared to flow this money and support the project becauS'e it is, in our view, a very worthwhile project. Churchill Rocket Range REDI Program Funding Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, on April 22, 1993, the Premier committed his government again to flowing money under the RED I program for economic development activities and includes proposals up to a million dollars for projects that will make good sense for the Manitoba economy outside the city of Winnipeg. I would like to ask the Premier, in light of the fact the Western Diversification Program has said no, the community of Churchill has said yes and the private sector has said yes, will the provincial government say yes and get this project going, this

3134 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 feasibility study going and finally get this project going in northern Manitoba? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) has indicated, the provincial government has already said yes. VLT Revenues Employment Creation Programs Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington}: Mr. Speaker, Winnipeg social allowance caseload has risen almost 85 percent between 1990 and '92. There were over 17 ,000 cases in April of this year, and three out of five single mothers live belo w the poverty line.

In December of 1991 , Premier Filmon said his government wo uld work co-operatively with all levels of government, and I quote, on any programs designed to eradicate poverty with respect to the children of our province. Is the Minister responsible for Lotteries now prepared to use some of the VL T funds raised in the city of Winnipeg to work with the city and the federal government to implement work programs that will help move social allowance recipients onto the wo rkforce , off the wel fare ro lls, as wa s recommended by the City of Winnipeg last year? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act}: First of all, it is a little premature to look at where video lottery terminal revenues from the city of Winnipeg will go, when they are not going to be installed in Winnipeg until September of this year, Mr. Speaker, and we have already indicated that the capital costs of video lottery terminals will have to be paid before money flows to the City of Winnipeg.

We also announced through the budget process that 65 percent of video lottery revenues will go directly toward deficit reduction for all Manitobans, so we can leave more money in the pockets of Manitobans to determine how they are going to spend that money themselves, rather than having government take that money in taxes. Mr. Speaker, we will continue to work with the City of Winnipeg. We have made a commitment to the City of Winnipeg as we have to rural Manitoba, and we will live up to that commitment. Ms.

Barrett: I cannot believe that it is too early to start planning for something that is going to start rolling in in September. That is exactly what this government has done throughout its time in office. It has not planned. VLT Revenues Employment Creation Programs Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington}: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services talk to his cabinet colleagues as they begin the planning process, whenever they begin the planning process, if they begin a planning process, to invest some of those funds from video lottery terminal revenues, put it back into the city of Winnipeg, put it back into programs designed to help social assistance recipien ts off the welfare rolls and onto the productive workforce of this province? Hon. Harold Gllleshamrner (Mnlster of Family Services}: Mr.

Speaker, the member is aware that we annually look at our rates and have adjusted those annually for recipients throughout the province. We have also brought in many other enhancements we have had the opportunit y to discuss through the Estimates process, and we will work with all municipal councils as we have them adjust to the new levels of assistance. I can assure the member that there are many issues in social allowances that my colleagues and I will be looking at. * (1 345) VL T Revenues Economic Development Projects Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington}: I would like to ask the government, any pa rticular minister who has begun this planning process, if social assistance recipi ents will be eli gible for the economic develop ment projects that will be implemen ted by the Province of Manitoba, or will it only be large corporations that will be eligible for this money? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Mnlster charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Act}: Mr. Speaker, indeed, money for economic development in the city of Winnipeg will, ultimately, result in more jobs.

That will mean that there is a good possibility that many social assistance recipients will be hired through a process of increased economic activity.

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3135 Churchill Rocket Range western Diversification Funding Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I was interested in the Premier's response to the Leader of the Opposit ion's (Mr. Doer) question about the Churchill proposal. I am wondering if the Premier, given that he has had the discussions he has had with people about this project , can explain why Western Diversification felt and I quote: • ... there is a vory low probability of the study leading to a comm ercially viable developmen t of the spaceport .... " Why did they write it off prior to doing the study?

Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if the member opposit e will just wait until he has a chance to be out on the hustings seeking a federal seat , he can ask that question of the federal government. He clearly knows that this is-[ interjection] No, I did not suggest that he would be elected. I said when he is on the hustings, he can ask the question. It is a federal department that has made that quote. He should be asking them, Mr. Speaker. I want to know whether or not he has already phoned Western Ec onomic Diversification to ask that question. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Speaker ,I appreciate the Premier's advice and he is correct . He is not the minister responsible for Western Economic Diversification. However, he did profess kn owledge about this project in his answer to the Leader of the Opposit ion (Mr. Doer). I would like to ask him a second question. I have here a letter from the lawyer who says that WED's negative decision was plainly politically motivated and centrally based. I am wondering if the Premier can add to those comments. Is this something that he believes? Mr. Fllmon: No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot add to those comments. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Speaker, one does not need to spend a lot of time talking to businesses in this province to have them tell you they feel that Ma nito ba is being ill -u sed by th e federal government. Has the Premier protested this decision to the federal government? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, given that the decision was just communicated as ofthe news media today, as I said in respo nse-[i nter jection] It wa s communicated as of the news reports today. That is what I said. [interjection] The same way as you did. You did not ask the question on May 5. You did not ask the question on May 11.

You asked the question when it was in the media. Mr. Speaker, as I said in response to the first question from the Leader of the Opposit ion, I intend to pursue th is with Wes ter n Eco nomic Diversification. Osborne House Management Review Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, very serious concerns have been raised regarding the management at Osborne House. In fact, it is more than just concerns. These are shocking revelat ions which the Minister of Family Services, the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae), the opposit ion critics and the media have received.

The problems have to do with a very serious style of managem ent ope rations which affects the running of Osborne House and staff turnover, and also very serious charges regarding the way that women who are there to receive shelter after leaving abusive relationships are treated. Since the Minister of Family Services was aware of this a year ago, I would like to ask the minister, what has he done as a result of being made aware of these allegations a year ago? *

(1350) Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): There are two issues here. One is an issue of staff management relations, and I am pleased to let the member and the House know that the YM-YWCA has hired an external agency, the Manitoba Insti tute of Management, to interview staff, undertake an issue identification process and develop a plan for the resolution of these issues. On the service side, we had preliminary meetings yesterday to discuss service at the shelter, and as of today, we have a program specialist who is working with the shelter to look at these service issues. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Speaker, the minister did not tell us what he had done since he knew of these revelat ions a year ago. It took the minister a year. Now, finally, the YM-YWCA is acting. Can the minister tell us if this review will be made public and if the recommendations will be made

3136 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 public, so we can ascertain whether or not the minister is going to imp lementthe recommendations resulting from a review? Mr. Gll leshammer: The member misunderstands the relationship. The review is being done under the auspices of the board to deal with staff who work for tha board at Osborne House. They have hired an external agency to conduct this, and we will be receiving that information when that review is finished. I believe they have put some time lines on that, so the review will be completed in the next six weeks or so.

We are working on the service side with the agenc y and have put into pla ce a program specialist, and we are also working on a service and funding agreement to assure that services are being provided within the shelter. Mr. Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services: Why would he agree to a review com missioned by the YM- YWCA when three internal reviews have been done in the last eight years, none of which have resulted in correction of these problems? The problems have continued.

Why wi ll this mi nis ter not authorize an independent review with recommendations made public to this minister and to the Legislature? Mr. Glll eshammer: There are a number of changes that have taken place. The member has received information from some staff and former staff of Osborne House, and I am satisfied at this time that the board is acting responsibly to put into place an external review to develop a plan for the resolution of these issues. I am prepared to allow the board to work with their staff to bring that resolution about. Property Tax Credit Impact on Seniors Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : I have a question for the Minister of Finance. This last budget was not a fair budget. A disproportion of the burden has been placed on the shoulders of the poor, the disadvantaged and the senior citizens of Manitoba. The $75 cut in property tax credits is especially hurting lower income peopl e, including senior citizens. My question to the minister is: Exactly how many seniors will be affected by this move and, precisely, can the minister tell the House, what is the estimated total increase in the property tax burden that will be transferred to the shoulders of senior citizens?

Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, when I brought the budget down, or before I brought the budget down, I said that every Manitoban would be impacted. With respect to the $75, we always said that the ability-to- pay principle was a very important one. We said the government's ability to pay was obviously important, and we had to reduce some of the support we had provided under the property tax credit line, but, furthermore, we said individuals' ability to pay was also very important. That is why we restructured the tax credit program, because we had basically the richest in the country.

As we have said before, seniors with incomes under $23,800 will receive a portion of the $1 75 and, indeed, those under $1 5,000 will secure the en tire $17 5 benefit they have grow n accustomed to. So, Mr. Speaker, we have not diverged in any way from the path we said we would be bringing, and that wa s pr acti sing fairness with respect to all Manitobans. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I was talking about the property tax credit, Mr. Speaker. School Tax Assistance Program Impact on Seniors Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East) : Another unfair move was the cut in Pensioner's School Tax Assistance.

That again, was very unfair. So my question is: What is the estimated total am ount of the redu ced provi ncial credit expenditures resulting from the cut in benefits available un der the Pensioner 's School Tax Assistance Program, and, again, how many senior citizens will likely lose their school tax benefits? * (1 355) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Well, again, Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question specifically because we know the global saving provided. The impact was roughly around $40 million across all of the property tax credit changes. But, again, Mr.

Speaker, ld o notthinkthe member for Brandon East would want us to go into all the tax forms and try and determine what level of income seniors have specifically, so as to be able to provide

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3137 him with the specific number count he would like me to provide. But I can tell him that the impact globally in all tax credit changes is around $40 million, and I tell him, I know full well that seniors will not mind as much, as long as they see good government decisions on the spending side leading to the types of comments that came forward yesterday from the Dominion Bond Rating Service. Mr.

Speaker, I know full well that seniors in this province fully understand the state of circumstances of the province and are prepared to support �his govern ment, as long as they see a balan ced approach on the spending side. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, the senior citizens of this province are afraid of the health cuts that are going on by this government. Municipal Tax Bills Information Pamphlet Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Speake r, my last question to the minister: Why did this minister fail to mention the tax credit reductions or eliminations in the information pamphlet that is going out with the municipal tax bills? This omission has caused a lot of confusion and consternation among property taxpayers who are now receiving their municipal tax bills. Why was the minister not forthcoming with this information? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I happe n to have the pamphlet, and it spells out very clearly and precisely the support that is available by way of tax credits in the 1993 year. Mr.

Speaker, it says, and I quote: Who is eligible? The Manitoba government offers assistance of up to $175 toward school taxes greater than $160 on the principal residence of eligible pe rsons 55 or more years of age. Mr. Speaker, it is clearly spelled out. Anybody can read it. As far as the new process whereby, now, seniors are going to have to go through the tax form, we have had to do that because of the new income definition which now treats every dollar earned every dollar earned- equally, regardless of the source. [interjection] The member asks did I sign it. Certainly, I have attached my name to it.

I have read it and I indeed endorsed it, Mr. Speaker, before it went out. HIV Infections Blood Transfusions Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Mr. Speaker, the House of Commons sub committee on blood and HIV has reviewed the issue of HIV -contam inated blood and blood transfusions which were performed during the-p nterjection) Mr. Speaker, my question is, as a result of the tainted blood, over 1 ,000 Canadians contracted the HIV virus. The report emphasized the possibility that there are still some HIV -i nfected people who contracted HIV disease during this time.

Can the Premier tell this House when the Depar tment of Health wi ll have a proactive approach to trace all those people who have the possibility of having contracted HIV disease during that period of time? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, can the Premier tell this House if during the next ministers' conference of pr ovi n cia l and federal gove rnme nt s, the govern ment will support the proactive approach of having one unified system for blood transfusions throughout the country to make sure that the safety and effecti ven ess of blood transfusions are maintained as recommended by the Canadian Hemophiiia Society? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I will take that as well on behalf of the Minister of Health. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, can the Premier tell us if the government of Manitoba will support all those patients who have contracted the HIV during that period of time? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health as well. Terry Stratton Lobby Efforts Mr. Jim Maloway (El mwood) : Mr. Speake r, yesterday, the Premier admitted that Tory fundraiser Arni Thorsteinson was appointed to the Hydro Board to replace Terry Stratton who had been appointed to the Senate. On Wedn esday, May 12, the Min iste r of Finan ce-and my question is to the Minister of

3138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 18, 1993 Finance-c onfirmed that he gave in to lobbying at the la st minu te by the Cen tral Air Carriers Association of Manitoba to cut the 7 pe rcent sales tax on the pu rchase and repair of commercial aircraft. I would like to ask the minister: Can he confirm that Senator Stratton participated in this lobbying? •

(1400) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): The memb er makes two assertions, both which are patently false. First of all, it was not a last- minute given. I had been in conversation with the air transport people, Mr. Speaker, for at least the best part of a year trying to find out whether or not there was a process of providing some relief that would make them more com petitive with ju risdictions to either side of Manitoba. The second question dealt with Mr. Stratton. I can indicate fully that Mr. Stratton was not in any way part of that lobby effort. As a matter of fact, I did not even know Mr.

Stratton was actively involved with any aspect of the aeronautical industry. Air West Ownership Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, the minister just said he was not aware that Mr. Stratton was involved in the air industry. I would like to ask the minister: Can he confirm that Senator Stratton owns Air West, a charter aircraft which directly benefited by the reduction in the 7 percent sales tax? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm that because that is new kn owledge to me. I was not aware of it. Government of Manitoba Public Access Mr.Jim Maloway(Eimwood): Mr.

Speaker , I would like to table a letter from Mr. Thorsteinson requesting money, input and ideas from me as a member of the business commu nity. My final question is to the minister, Mr. Speake r. The question is this: Who gets access and who gets listened to more by this government, Tory bagmen like Terry Stratton and Arni Thorsteinson or the mothers and children of this province who now have to pay PST on baby bottles and baby supplies? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, every single Manitoban is important to this government. Every single Manitoban has a voice that is heard by this government.

I know that New Democrats pick their friends and choose only their class of people whom they want to listen to. I know that their union bosses are the ones who come into cabinet and tell them what to do and how to do it. This government listens to every single Manitoban equally. The Green Plan Red/Asslnlbolne Rivers Ms. MarlanneCerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the federal government's Green Plan says there is also concern about water quality in the Red River and Assiniboine River, particularly near Winnipeg, Manitoba.

The cumulative effects on water quality of the many industrial, agricultural and municipal activities that take place in these river basins is poorly understood. Better information is needed to determine priority areas for preven tative and remedial action. It then goes on to talk about a proposed joint study bet we en the pr ovinces of Mani toba and Sask atchewan to look at the Red River and Assiniboine River basins. My question is for the Minister of Environment.

Given that this Green Plan has been proposed for quite some time, why have we not heard about plans for this study happening before major projects like the Assiniboine River diversion which is going to have an effect on both water basins? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment) : Mr. Speaker, there has been discussion in this area ever since 1988 and earlier. It is a problem of a number of decades in terms of the water quantity and quality that we have in our prairie rivers.

The fact tha t there have been ongoing discussions for a number of years about bringing Green Plan money to the province to deal with what is one of our most important resources should not come as any surprise to the member. Asslnlbolne River Diversion Federal Environmental Review Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, the idea is that you do studies and research and plan before--

May 18, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 3139 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Radisson, with your question, please. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, given that the federal Environment Act and the Green Plan mandate federal involvement in an assessment of this kind of water diversion project, what rationale does the minister have for screening out this project from a federal assessment? Hon. Glen Cummings {Minister of Environment): Mr.

Spea ker, I am puzzl ed by the me mber suggesting that I would have either the authorit�· or any desire to screen out federal involvement. That is a federal responsibility. They have a respon sibility to make the decision on whether or not there will be federal involvement in any aspects of this review. Mr. Speaker, it has been stated a numb er of times in this Chamber that we are proceeding with our review. We have kept close contact with the federal authorities.

It is ultimately their decision whether or not they want to be part of the review, whether or not they wish to do their own review or whether or not they may choose to screen it out. Ms. Cerllll : Mr. Speaker, I realize that the minister should be making that information- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Radisson, with your question, please. Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious matter.

I would ask the minister to be accountable and tell the people of Manitoba what is the rationale that the federal government has given to this minister as to why there would not be a federal environm ental assessm ent as ma ndated by the federal environm ent legislation on this project. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the member insists on impl ying that I have the decision- making authority as to whether or not federal authority is in or out. Point of Order Ms. Cerllll : My point of order to clarify the question is, what- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order.

That is a disput e over the-( interjection] Order, please. That is a clarification. *** Mr. Cummings: Well, if she finds her lack of understanding of the process embarrassing, then she does not have to like the answer, but the answer is, this jurisdiction does not make the decision as to whether or not the federal authorities are in. Misericordia Alternative Action Group Recommendations Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, the Mise ricordia alte rnative ac tion group has recommended an extensive series of commun ity based alternatives in mental health prior to the closing of the psychiatric beds at Misericordia. Throughout the men tal health field, there is uncertainty over the resources being placed in the mental health field, and they may not be in place prior to the closing of the beds.

Will the minister assure this House that he will consider the recommendations of the Misericordia alternative action group and other groups which include such things as co-ordinated crisis services, commu nity support and housing prior to the closing of the beds at Misericordia Hospital? Hon. Gary Fllmon {Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Misericordia Alternative Action Group Recommendations Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, my suppleme ntary to the Minister of Family Services: Can the minister advise this House whether he has put in place recommendations of the Reid inquest, the Russick inquest and groups like the Misericordia alterna tive action com mittee that call for a cross-departm ental approach to mental health? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer {Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we put in a number of processes following the Reid report. I would be pleased to indicate those to the member today.

One of the concerns identified in the Reid report was the lack of co-ordin ation between the agencies in the city of Winnipeg. We centralized the Child and Family Services agencies two years ago to be sure that this co-or dination and communication was in place. We imp lemented a stand ard on the reporting of firearms and other weapons, requiring Child and Family

3140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 Services agencies to document and report actual or potential use of weapon s in case situations and to inform the police where there are reasonable grounds to believe there is a threat to the safety of any family members. We are also in the process of implement ing a Child and Family Services Information System which is a province- wide compute rized information system designed to track the progress of children and families throughout Manitoba's child welfare system. The service involves all the mandated child welfare agencies in Manitoba. Mr. Chomlak: Mr.

Spea ker, the mini ster has answered in general. I wo uld like to ask the mini ster in my final supplem entary: Does he sup port the recommen dations, together with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) and other ministers, of the Misericordia alternative action group and other groups calling for an overall co-ordina ted appro ach? The minister has only dealt with some segments. He has not talked about economic sup port, housing, et cetera. Mr. Gll leshammer: I would take that question as a matter of notice. *

(1410) Osborne House Management Review Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Family Services. The minister has known about the difficulties at Osborne House for almost a year. He said earlier in this Question Period that he had a planning meeting yesterday. Can he tell us what he has done for the other 364 days? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I reject the memb er's assertion that there have been representations made to the minister overt he last year.

We have had a couple of compl aints that have come to the department . The question of the staff-ma nagement situation with the shelter is being handled by an external agency that has been hired by the board. I am comfortable that they have put in place a process that will lead to the resolution of the issues between the staff and management . Program Specialist Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Spea ker , in response to a ministerial question from the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), as is his wont, yelled across the House-does not trust the YM-YW CA. Mr. Speaker, I would like to know if the Minister of Family Services does trust the management of YM-YW. If he does, why did he make the decision to put a program specialist into the Osborne House situation? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, our department deals with many commun ity-based boards, not only in the city of Winn ipeg but across the province of Manitoba, that do tremendous work in managing the various agencies that provide service to clients who are part of this department .

The board has put into place a process to deal with the issues between staff and management. We are concerned on the service side because issues have been raised on service. Tha t service is in place and is cont inuing. We have had prelimina ry discussions with the management of the shelter. As a result of those discussion s, we are having a program specialist work with the management and staff of the shelter to ensure that service in fact is in place. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Spea ke r, the function of Osborne House isto provide service.

Obviously, the minister has decided there are sufficient difficulties at Osborne House that it is ne cessary to put a program specialist into place to resolve those difficulties before the consultant makes the report. Why did the minister decide yesterday that this program specialist was necessary when he has had information about this for some time now? Mr. Glll eshammer: Mr. Speaker, the staff from our department are not intended to replace the staff.

In meetings with the management and staff, there are issues that ne ed to be resolved , and if the department can be of assistance, we are doing so with the staff from that area of our department .

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 3141 VIA Rail Bayllne Service Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speake r, transportation issues are of major importance in northern Manitoba and in this particular case in terms of bayline communities. There is ongoing concern about the future of the bayline that affects commun ities such as IIford, Pikwitonei and Thicket Portage that have no other link s wh ats oever. Tha t wa s par ti cula rly compoun ded by the federal budget in which the response from VIA Rail has been that they will not be able to provide existing service with those particular cuts.

I would like to ask the Minister of Highways and Transpo rtation if he has received any assurances of long-t erm service on the bayline from the federal government arising out of the cuts tha t took place to VIA Rail following the federal budget . Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportati on): Mr. Speaker, no, I do not have those assurances. We are trying to negotiate and talk with the VIA people. We have correspon dence with them. My staff is working with them, but I cannot give that assurance at the present time, though I am trying to get that assurance.

Port of Churchill hlpment Guarantees Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, one of the other concerns is in terms of the bayline and the Port of Churchill. I would like to ask the minister if he has received any assurance in terms of any shipments out of the Port of Churchill this year. Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I do not have that assurance either.

I do not think I have enough time to explain exactly the process that we are in right now which I outlined under my Estimates in terms of what I think is-1 am hopeful of what will happen with the Arctic Bridge concept that we have developed with the Russians, with the committee tha t has been struck and the consultants who have been hired. I am hoping there is going to be some positive information coming forward relatively soon in terms of what the future holds in terms of grain movement through the Port of Churchill. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of concern up no rth.

I do hope there are going to be some assurances. VIA Rail Bayllne Service Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final question is to the Minister of Highways. I would like to ask the minister if there are any contingency plans, given the fact that many of the communities alo ng the bayline do not have any other access, have no all-weat her road access, have only winter-road access. Is there any contingency plan in place? Are there are any moves to further reduce the bayline service that would provide alternate all- weather road access to those communities? Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speake r, the road cons ider ations are not one of the opt ions that we are looking at at the present time. We are still holding the federal governm ent and VIA Rail responsible for the commitments they made, that they would provide services to isolated communities in the North. It is on that premise and principle that we are working with them. Transcona-Sprlngfleld School Division Transportation Privatization Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the recent provincial government's budget, the Transcon a-Sprin gfield School Division had their funding cut back by some 3 percent . Since that time, the school division has had to apply for noncharitable st atus so that they can receive monies from members of the community to allow them to continue their ope rations. Since that time, the school division , as well , has moved toward privatization of their student popula tion in the community, Mr. Speaker.

My question for the Minister of Educ ation is: What plans does this Minister of Educ ation have to protect the students who are being transported within the school division, now that the school division is looking at privatizing tha t service? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Spea ke r, again, we have

3142 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 18, 1993 discus sed the funding which has been made available to schools in this province, and I would remind the member that $777.7 million is still a very large commitment of funds. With the funds which flow from the school funding formula to school divisions, boards will be making decisions. They will be making decisions, and I believe that they will attempt to make the best decisions representing their community areas. Mr. Reid: My supplem entary is to the Minister of Edu cation.

Can the minister indicate whether or not the school division has the authority to privatize this service and whether or not the school division actually indeed owns those buses, or is it the Department of Education that owns that equipment ? Mrs. Vodrey: I will have to get back to the member regarding the information for his particular school division in terms of ownership of the buses. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimll) : Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Gimli have leave to make a nonpolitical st atement? [agreed] Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, it is with extreme pleasure that I rise today to ask all memb ers of this House to congratulate the town of Gimli, the Manitoba Sailing Association and the Gimli Yacht Club for being awarded the 1994 World Boardsailing Champion ships in Gimli. This annou ncement was made today and will result in as many as 500 athletes from over 80 countries coming to Gimli for this world- class event which is tentatively scheduled to run from August 28 to September 5, 1994. Mr.

Speaker, in the world of sailing this is a major announcement and is something Manitobans and specifically the people of Gimli should be very proud of. Some facts for the House-t his is the first ever world championship in an Olympic event to be held in Manitoba. Gimli will be hosting the largest Olympic wind surfing event in history. This is the first ever com bin ed Olympic and win dsu rfing wo rld championship. Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt the Gimli area is one of the premier areas for boating. Lake Winnipeg is the 11 th largest lake in the world.

There are over 4,500 square kilometres of water in the south basin capable of hosting any major international sailing event. The town of Gimli has over two kilometres of easily accessible beach. There is a wide harbour breakwater that Is perfect for spectators and TV crews. Gimli has a 300-member yacht club that can provide critical volunteers and regatta management expertise. Gimli has more than enough space to house and feed the hundreds of athletes and team officials who will be attending this event.

Race organizers have over 27 years of race management and expertise and over 21 major national- international events under their belts. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is safe to say Gimli is second to none as a race venue. The world became aware of just how good Gimli is for sailing when it was used as a major sailing venue during the 1967 Pan Am Games. No w, through the 1994 World Boardsailing Championships, Gimli will once again be showcased to the rest of the sailing world, which will only further enhance this area as a prime sailing spot .

As well, with hundreds of athletes, team officials and spectators converging on Gimli, the local economy will certainly benefit. Today, there is no doubt the bid was successful because of the tremendous community effort shown by all partners in this bid. Today, I invite all members in this House to join with me in celebrating and congratulating the town of Gimli, the Manitoba Sailing Association and the Gimli Yacht Club for bei ng awarded the 19 94 World Board sailing Championships. *** Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Agriculture have leave to make a nonp olitical statement? [agreed] Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure to be able to make a nonpolitical statement today to congratu late the Kiw ani s Club of Winnipeg for th e annual sponsorship of the 4- H leadership public speaking contest . Mr. Speake r, I had the occasion to hear those young people at noon hour. The Kiwanis Club has sponsored this since 1947, exceptional young

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3143 leaders out of rural Manitoba, a tribute to the over 2,000 people who were leaders in the 4-H program of Manitoba. The three finalists today of the 11 people who came to Winnipeg on Sunday were Lauren McNabb of Minnedosa who spok e on literacy, Tammy Gillis from McCreary who spok e on AIDS, and Sharon Hunter from Greenridge who spok e on suicide. Not only did they show leadership, they talked about serious problems that we face in life today. The winner, Mr. Spe aker, was Lauren McNabb from Minnedosa. I would like to congratulate her.

I would also like to congratulate one of the judges, the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). * (1 420) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to join with the Minister of Agriculture in congratulating the young people who participated in the public speak ing com petition and also in saying thank you to the Kiwanis Club who have always been very good sponsors of the 4-H and youth program. Mr.

Speaker, I think all of us know of individuals who have gone through the 4-H and youth program, I am sure many who are in this House today, a former Premier of the province of Manitoba who was involved in the 4-H and youth program.Jt is certainly an excellent program to develop leadership skills, public speak ing skills, a sense of commu nity and a sense of teamwork. I am only sorry that I was not able to be at the events today to hear these public speakers, but I again wish them well on behalf of my caucus. I am sure that they will go on to bigger and better things. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Swan River have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Rosann Wowc huk (Swan River): Mr . Speaker, I would like to join with the other two memb ers in congratulating the Kiwa nis Club in sponsoring the 4-H public speaking event. I have been involved with 4-H clubs for many, many years, and our children went through the program. I recognize the importance of this club.

I would hope that we would continue to have this club flourish in Manitoba, and with the number of leaders that we have to provide the leadership for our young people to take on the roles of leaders in this province in the future.lt is a very important service that plays a very important role for young people. I had the opportunity this year to attend several achievement nights, and saw the tremendous work, the skills that young people learned through this job, through this club. I give my highest respects to those leaders who give of their time so willingly to help these young peop le.

Also, I attended a public speak ing event as well, and was very impressed with the skills that these young people have learned through the leadership of the club again, and it does nothing but enhance their ability to take on their role as they become adults in this province and take on leadership roles. Congratulations to the Kiwanis Club and my best wishes to all young people who have the oppor tunity to take advantage of joining 4-H clubs. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness {Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) , that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the Ho use resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion presented. MATTERS OF GRIEVANCE Mr. Steve Ashton {Thompson): In fact, I am pleased to be able to speak today, Mr. Speake r, under the one time in the session that I am guaranteed to be able to speak when I rise on my grievance. Mr.

Speaker, i want to say that is ironic because only last night I was not able, after a number of attempts, to receive recognition in participating in a major debate in the Department of Agriculture. [interjection] Well, I hear howls from across the way, but members opposite should understand that one of the most fundamental rights of a member of this Legislature is the right to speak out on behalf of his or her constituents, and I plan on doing that today. What is happ ening, Mr.

Spea ke r, with this government, is that it is increasingly showing signs of arrogance, and I think what happened last night is indicative of that. In Estimates, where we have a limited number of hours set aside for consideration

314 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 18 , 19 93 of departments, we saw the spectacle yesterday of a government filibuster on a motion, which is a traditional motion to reduce the minister's salary, where the government spoke for three hours solid, where members in the opposition, such as myself, were unable to participate in the debate. That is not only not the tradition of this House, it is not parliamentary, it is not demo cratic, and it is not acceptable to the opposition in this Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, this government has to understand that our parliamentary system is based on respect, not just of the will of the majority, the temporary majority that governs in this House, but also the other members, the members of the opposition, the other members of this House. It is interesting because I look back at (interjection) Well, it is interesting the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) talks about 4-H. I wonder how many of those participants in the competition he was talking about would have agreed with the government that refuses to allow members of the opposition to participate in debate.

I wonder how many of those 4-H individuals would understand-in fact, I know they would understand the concern of members of this House. Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that there will be specific opportunity to deal with this matter when the Committee of Supply again resumes in terms of points of order, indeed, of potential other procedures that may be used. I want to say that I consider it unfortunate that the only way in which I can speak without having to run into that tyranny of the majority is in grievance. Once a session, Mr. Speaker, it is the time when I can stand in my seat, and I can speak . Mr.

Spea ke r, it is interesting that memb ers opposite take it so lightly. Perhaps some members who served in opposition would recall some of the concerns that were expressed by members of the opposition in those days in terms of the operation of comm ittees and recognition of spea k ers and objectivity of chairs of committees and of speakers. They were concerns that were raised then. I took the opportunity to look back at some of the concerns that were raised by such former members as Sterling Lyon and Brian Ransom and indeed, some of the same sitting members, Mr. Speaker.

I looked back at some of the previous debates in this House and concerns that were expressed, and indeed I will be raising some of those matters as precedent when I have the opportunity to deal with this matter in a more substantive form. But I want to say to members opposite, to members of the government, that they should be very careful in terms of what they are doing because this House operates on the basis of rules, yes, but it also operates on the basis of co-opera tion.

I would say co-operation begins by recognizing the traditions of this House in terms of allowing members of the opp osition to speak, in this case, on a motion that we introduced ourselves. And we will deal in terms of the procedural matters that were dealt with whether or not we have a decision on that particular matter. I think common courtesy would have shown yesterday that even if members of the opposite had been, to my mind, in error, recognized thatthey were showing the courtesy of allowing members of the opposition to speak at that particular point in time.

This House operates as much on common courtesy and co-operation as it does on the rules, and that is my concern. We have a government that is increasingly ignoring our rules and ignoring any sense of co-operati on, and I think that is unfair and it is unfortunate. I sometimes wonder, Mr. Speaker, the degree to which this government will go. I found it rather interesting in Question Period today when the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) of this province, in response to a question about the continuing clear evidence of blatant patronage on behalf of this government, a blatant unfairness that it deals with its political friends one way and it deals with other Manitobans another way, talks about the NDP, when it is a government, appointing its class of people. What did the Premier mean by its class of people? You kn ow, we have already seen his federal cou nterpar t now , or presu me d federal counterpar t-to- be Kim Cam pbel l, whom he supports, talking about people that disagree with the Conservatives, big enemies of Canada.

I mean, now we are getting this new definition from the Premier. The NDP with its class of people. What class of people, Mr. Speaker? Nothing but a school class here. I mean, what class of people? What is it, lower class, working class, middle class? Perhaps in the ivory tower view of Tuxedo, perhaps in the Premier's

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 3145 view , we are all be ne ath the class of the Conservatives but I reject that. I found the comments of the Prem ier today to be indicative of the kind of elitism that we see in Kim Campb ell, the kind of elitism that is rampant in the Tory party, and it is unacceptable. The NDP spe aks for all people in this province , and that kind of comment from the Prem ier is indicativ e of the restricted, narrow- minded, elitist view of the Cons e rvative Party. And I say -[int erjection] • (1 430) Mr. Speaker, members opposit e say, speak for yourself.

I am saying what the Prem ier said. If you want to speak you should speak to the Premier. He was the one who made those comments in this House. You know, it just amazes me that this government does not understand what is happ ening out there. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) today made those comments. Then we had the spectacle of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) talk about the provincial budget and how everybody was having to sacrifice and pay their share . Well, Mr. Spea ker, I mean, where has this Minister of Finance been since he annou nced the budget?

Has he gone into the diners and the coffee shops to see who is paying that expansion of the sales tax as he calls it? Well, if he had, he would have found out that the pe ople on limited means, average Manitobans are paying those increases. Go to Dubrovnik, you do not pay it on a $20-$25 meal. That is the reality out there. Now, we see the First Minister talking today in response to the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) about seniors. Is the Minister of Finance (Mr. Man ness) not aware of what he is doing?

I mean, does he have to pick up a newspap er and read it on the front page before he understands that he is pe nalizing the seniors of this province , particularly those in-not ev en modest accommo dation, we are talking about people living in very, very mo dest houses in poor area s, in rural commu nities in houses that are not worth a heck of a lot to begin with. Why? Because many of those seniors are of modest means. This Minister of Finance goes and says to the people in Tuxedo, you have to take a reduction of $75 on your prope rty tax credit. Well, whoop-d e-do, Mr.

Speake r, $75 is going to really hurt pe ople in Tuxedo living in $1 50,000, $200,000, $250,000 houses. That is going to be real tough, you know. I mean, they are going to have to cut back pretty severely .I am just trying to think what might happen. There might be some terrible things. It might mean one less meal at Dubrovnik. How terrible I They may have to cut back in other ways. They may not be able to get the Mercedes washed as much. I mean, let us get serious. How is it going to imp act on pe ople in Tuxedo? Are they going to be hurt?

I mean, they are going to have to get a $1 ,425 suit instead of a $1 ,500 suit. Let us be serious. People are not going to suffer. Transpose that with a government that turns around to people who are paying limited taxes to begin with, Mr. Speaker, because the house they live in is of limited value, and the land they are living on is of limited value. Seniors who spe nt their entire life working strictly to survive, to pay the bills.

It is inter esting, you kn ow, I remember the Premier was saying that you do not know what the income of the people in those houses is going to be that are going to pay that extra $250. Well, you know, I do not know who the Premier has been talking to, but I have not heard of a lot of millionaires living in these houses. Millionaires usually like to liv e in quarter-of-a million-dollar houses. They do not like to live in houses worth $10, 000 or $15, 000 or $20,000 in areas of modest means, in rural communities with depressed prope rty values.

There is usually a relationship between big houses and big prope rty tax bills and income. Mr. Speaker, fine, the Premier can say, well, it is not income-related, and we can deal with that. There are ways within the property tax credit of dealing with income-related, but this government is now saying to the seniors, the many seniors, you have to pay $250, $260, $270 more. So the pe rson in Tuxedo loses the $75 and does not get to go to Dubrovnik that one extra time. Where does the $250 come from in terms of the senior citizens? An Honourable Member: Only those that can afford to pay. Mr.

Ashton: Only those that can afford to pay. Well, Tory Ministers of Rnance here who try and talk socialist lines here. Some socialist the Minister of Finance is when people in Tuxedo are faced with a $75 increase in their property taxes and people living in those small houses, in those modest houses, are going to be paying $250. That is not ability to pay. That is just straight Tory unfairness,

3146 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 and the Minister of Finance knows that-ab ility to pay. Well, we will judge that by the fairness of Manitobans. We will ask them who should have been hit with the $250 increase, and I guarantee you if the Minister of Finance takes the time to get out of this building and talk to some of those seniors that are going to be impacted by this, some of the people faced with the $250 increase, he will find out what they think about it. Mr. Speaker, the bo ttom line with this government, as I said, we see the elitism and we see the arrogance.

It is not just in the way they are dealing with matters before this House , it is in their actions as well. What I find incredible, what I find particularly incredible is even when we get into specific debates on bills, we find again that even then the government cannot get it right. I take Sunday shopping. We had the incredible spectacle of the minister responsible for the bill trying to suggest that somehow the opposition is responsible for the bill not being before a committee. Well, I wish someone would turn the oxygen on on the other side because I think the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) is hallucinating here. I do not know where he has been since December. We passed the Sunday shopping trial period into committee through second reading in December. Is this Janu ary? Is this February? Is it March? Is it April? Even with the weather being like it is, I mean it may seem like it is February or March, but it is May. It is May the 18th. [interjection] Well, the Minister of Finance says we have already gone through summer and it is winter again. I mean, it may seem that long, but it has been a substantive period of five months. Mr.

Speaker, ! suppose someone might say, well, perhaps the government was just too busy. Perhaps other matters dominated in the session, but we did not sit the latter part of December and into January and February. We did not sit in that period of time. So did they call the bill to have public hearings? I mean, I know we would like to have hearings across rural and northern Manitoba. I must say I was disappoin ted but not surprised, the government did not want to go out. The bottom line, and the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) should know this, is they had plenty of time to go to committee, whether it be in this building or anywhere else, and they did not. Now, the Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has the nerve to go out and say to the media that, well, it is really the opposition that is going to decide when this bill goes to committee. There are various words that could be used to describe that, most of which are unparliamentary. Let me just say that the government opposite has lost leave of its senses. It is a stranger to the truth.

It has not been telling the truth on that issue and it is indicative of the kind of attitude we are seeing increasingly from this government. Well, Mr. Speaker, are these just isolated incidents? Have there been other incidents? We are seeing increasingly in this House when Manitobans disagree with the government, what does the government do?

I remember a time when Sterling Lyon-and here I go again, saying this, but it is true-there was someone that if you disagreed with him, you had a protest, he would not send out somebody else on his behaH or send a letter saying, we do not have anybody available to go, I am too busy, like the current Premier (Mr. Filmon) has done repeatedly. pnte�ection] Well, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) says, the good old days. One great thing about Tories is every time they get in government they are worse than the one bef ore .

This government has had the dubious distinction of making Sterling Lyon look like a martyr, but I am not talking about specifically that. I am talking about the fact-and I was president of the student union at the time when 20 percent in tuition for fee increases took pla ce, and when cuts took place to funding. pnte�ection] No, I did not carry a coffin. That was a year after. We had 4,500 students and staff and faculty on the front steps of the Legislature. What happened, Mr. Speaker?

The Leader of the Opposition came out, well, actually the Liberal member, Lloyd Axworthy came out and spoke, followed by Ed Schreyer who was then-L eader of the Opposition, and then finally, guess who came out? Was there somebody coming out reading a regret letter? Did someone come out and say, we are sorry, the Premier is hiding in his office; he cannot come out. We stood there and we went, Rufus, Rufus-that was his middle name and we thought we could get his attention-and guess what? We got his attention. He came out; he spoke to the 4,500 people there and invited us up to his office

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 3147 afterwards, and we presented a petition with 15 ,000 peopl e. In the end we had a follow-up meeting even with the Conservative caucus at the time. When I say we, it was collectively in terms of students, faculty and staff. * (1 440) Hon. James Downey {Minister of Northern Affairs): That is when we decided we did not want you at a caucus meeting. Mr. Ashton: Well, believe you me-the Northern Affairs minister said about deciding that he did not want me in their caucus-1 mean, I have never voted Tory, never will in my life, Mr. Speaker.

I made up that decision a long time before then, but they certainly helped out, because, believe you me, in the back of my mind I always used to think that when Tories got in, they would do things like this, cut back on education, cut back in terms of working people and cut back in terms of no rtherners. You know what happened, Mr. Speaker? I saw it up close, that is exactly whatthey did. That was then and this is now. The more things change, the more they stay the same, but with a few significant differences.

This government now is doing the same sorts of things that Sterling Lyon did, cutting back in education , impacting on students. In this case, they are cutting student aid, something that Sterling Lyon never did. We are seeing it in other areas. We are seeing it particularly with-1 remember a Minister of Northern Affairs who said at the time that welfare was cheaper than job creation . Well, that is still the philosophy of this government. They would much rather see the welfare rolls go up, as we have seen today, than have people put to work.

They will not even work with the City of Winnipeg , with an innovative program that would get people working in the city instead of sitting at home on welfare because they are unable to get employment. Mr. Downey: Are you advocating we do away with welfare? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speake r, the Minister of Northern Affairs says, are we advocating doing away with welfare? I told him, I am not a Tory nor have I ever been. If that is his philosophy, let him state it. But the bottom line is, what I am advocating is people are able and willing to be able to work.

It is absolutely criminal that in the province of Manitoba right now there is not enough work for the people out there who want to work, and the people are ending up on welfare. I talk to people every day in my constituency when I make my rounds and talk to my constituents, as I do on a regular basis. People are saying to me: I am on welfare right now; I have never been on welfare before in my life; I do not want to be on welfare; I am not eligible for Ul because my Ul has run out, and I want to get work.

I have talk ed to people in many remote commun ities who work as long as they can in the year for two, three, four or five months. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Start a business. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Spe aker, the Minister of Finance says start a business. With what? Mr. Manness: With what? Mr. Ashton: With what? I mean , if you are on welfare, try going to the bank to get a loan . (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Manness: Energy. Mr. Ashton: Start a business with energy. Mr. Manness: With the sweat of your brow . Mr.

Ashton: With the sweat of our brow- well, I do not know which planet the Minister of Finance is from, Mr. Acting Speaker, but I am talking about communities. I will take him into Thicket Portage, IIford or Pikwitonei, commun ities that at least the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) has visited, I know certainly in the case of Pikwitonei. Mr. Downey: I have been in them all. Mr. Ashton: Been in them all, fair enough. These are communities with three-day -a-w eek rail service, with no tax base. There are people who do have businesses, Mr. Acting Speaker.

Those were boom commun ities 50 years ago, they were boom communities 25 years ago. People have been working the last 25 years on commercial fishing. You cann ot get much more into small bu siness than that . But they are suf ferin g. Transpo rtation prices are down . The trans portation subsidy was decreased. There are problems with the Freshwater Fish Marketing board that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mann ess) is perhaps not aware of, but the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) is certainly aware of, if he has been in any

3148 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 18 , 1993 of those communities and talked to commercial fishermen. Mr. Acting Speaker, it is not a lack of effort, it is not a lack of background in the workforce. There are many people in those commun ities. There are seniors, there are elders in those communities that worked 30 years on the railroad, but their kids cannot work on the railroad because there are not the jobs anymore. They have been cut back. The maintenance crews are down to two and three people in those commu nities. There used to be 10 0, 15 0 people based out of Pikwitonei.

I had the opportu nity to talk to an elder just recently. He remembers the day when that was one of the boom towns in northern Manitoba, as was Thicket Portage that became the staging ground for Thompson. Mr. Acting Speaker, the bottom line is those commu nities, when they have had the chance, have worked and worked hard to build the communities, and worked hard to build a lifestyle for their com mu nities. But what is happening now, the Minister of Finance says start a business. As I said, with what? This is what the government does not understand.

These people in the communities do not have the financial resources to do it. The banks will not lend anyway in most of the communities- that is a common complaint. The bottom line is they are having a tougher time because of this Minister of Finance and this Premier. You have cut back the Children's Dental Program; you have cut back in terms of youth programs in those communities, the only programs that were providing jobs; you are cutting back in terms of student social assistance; you are cutting back in terms ofthe bursary program. This clobbers commu nities such as the ones I am talking about, Mr.

Acting Speaker. You know, I do not know in the commu nity where the Minister of Finance lives, if everyone could just say, well, I am going to start up a small business and go to the bank and do it. I very much doubt it because I am sure even in his own community, he knows there are many people who would not be able to do that. But, you know, Mr.

Acting Speaker, what I find particularly insulting about the comment is many of the people in the remote commu nities in particular, as I have said, have been trappers, have been fishermen, have made their own living and continue to do so, continue to hunt and trap and fish. Mr. Downey: The environmen tal ists put the trappers out of business. Mr. Ashton: Well, the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) says the environmentalists put the trappers out of business.

Indeed, the Green Peace with its distorted and completely unfair and sensationalistic campaigns in Europe has certainly had its Indent in terms of those communities. But the point I am making to the Minister of Northern Affairs is perhaps he should explain to the Minister of Rnance, given the chance, people in those communities have set up small businesses, the ultimate small business-living off the land, the ultimate small busines s-sel ling the furs that you catch or trap, selling the fish that you get, and increasingly they are being hit in those particular communities. Mr. Manness: Not by my taxes. Mr.

Ashton: Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Minister of Finance says not by my taxes. I can give him a list of Tory initiatives that have hit northern commu nities. We can start with the $50 user fee for northern patient transportation, we can go on to the child dental program that provided the only dental care many of those children have ever received and ever will receive, because most of the people never have had and never will have insurance. When you are a trapper, you do not have dental insurance. You are not like other people in other occupations.

I know the Minister of Rnance representing a commu nity with many primary producers, many farmers, who do not have insurance either, should understand that. So those are two things that have been hit right off the bat. They have cut back in terms of income security. The student social assistance program and also the payme nts going to people in the communities. They have cut back currently in terms of job creation programs in those commu nities.

They have elimin ated any abil ity in many communities to provide summer jobs because of the requirement of matching funds, something that was available in terms of the CareerStart. They have cut back in terms of the Commu nity Places Program that had provided some significant opportunities in terms of building facilities in those communities. What have they not cut back? They are even cutting back in terms of education funding into those commu nities in terms of frontier schools.

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3149 I mean, these are com mu nities, Mr. Acting Speaker, that have limited resources to begin with, and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) knows that, and they are being continuously hit. So the Minister of Finance says they have not been affected by any of his taxes. I mean, who does he think are paying the increased provincial sales tax on baby supplies and meals under six bucks? It is people who have limited means to begin with in many communities and in my own communities.

If he wants to come to Thompson and he wants to come with me to any of the restaurants in Thomp$on and come in and see who is paying that amount, it is not the people who go and pay the $1 0- $1 2 dinners and the $1 5 dinners and the $20 dinners, most people cannot afford that on a regular basis. The people who are getting penalized by his taxes are the people on limited and modest incomes, so I point out this, because increasingly the fact is that this government is elitist and it is out of touch. * (1 450) It is interesting because there is a relationship between all of these factors.

I talk about the federal Conservatives, and I find it interesting. When times are tough for Tories, we get people like the minister for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), who suggested that the Manitoba party, the Manitoba Conservative party, Progressive Conservative party, whatever the heck it is called now, Manitoba PC party or a Tory by any other name, suggested, change the name. I remember that. What is the member for Brandon West doing now? He is running for the federal Conservative party. Does that surprise anyone in this House?

Here is an MLA that wanted to change the name of the pr ovi ncial pa rty- those rotte n federal Conservatives, he said, that rotten Brian Mulroney, that rotten bunch of cabinet ministers, they have done such terrible things for Manitoba. We should disassociate ourselves. What is he doing now? He is running for the federal Conservatives and what are they standing for? Every single one of the policies that was adopted by the federal Conservative party is being maintained by what-by Kim Campbell and John Charest. It is the same bunch. They are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, Mr. Acting Speaker.

By the looks of it, I think Kim Campbell is throwing some of the deck chairs overboard.! think at the rate she is going, she is going to jump overboard herself with some of her most recent comments. We are seeing now Kim Cam pbe ll ma ke statements about the Catholic church that have not been heard in this country since the turn of the century, the turn of the century-[interjection] I do not know if the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) is aware of the comments that Kim Campbell has made about the Catholic church and the Pope-[interjection] Well, take out of context.

It is hard to take a comment out of context talking about papist demons-papist demons. How do you take that out of context? She is an Anglican, and if he wants to get the copy of the exact statement that was made. I cannot even repeat some of the things she said in the House about people that are not members of political parties. She made some very disp araging comments about people who are not mem bers of pol itical parties. You have someone who, just last week, said that people who do not agree with the Conservatives on the deficit are enem ies of Can ada- enemies of Canada.

Well, you know, I am just wondering who is going to be left, Mr. Acting Speaker. She is taking on the 80 percent of people who do not agree with Tory government policies, she is taking on Catholics, she is taking on people that are not members of political parties. Well, I ask the question, who is left once you eliminate all of those people? What it is, it is the Tory party of the 1890s.

It is the Orangem en, it is the el itist version of the Conservative party and I do not even believe, in fact I know, that many members in this House who are Conservatives do not subscribe to that view of this province or this country, but this is Kim Campbell. How many of them are going to vote for Kim Campbell? This is a question I ask, because is no one going to take a stand and disassociate themselves from these elitist comments? Is no one going to say that it is not acceptable in the 1990s to talk as if we are in the 18 90s with the Orange Lodge and anti-Catholic statements?

This is not northern Ireland, I mean, talking about papist demons. As I said, it is not just the federal leader. Why did the Premier today talk about the NDP and its class of people? Does that not indicate very much certainly an insensitivity in terms of what was said in terms of words but it sends wonderful

3150 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 signals. [interjection] Well, perhaps the memb er for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) can explain what the Premier said about the NDP and its class of people. What is its class of people? What is our class of people? You know, I represent people in my constituency and when I come to this House I represent everyone, whether they vote for me or not, that is part of the democratic process. One of the nice things about the community in Thompson, and I think anyone who has been in Thompson will know that, including the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey), we have our disagreements at election time. We probably put up more election signs per capita than anybody else does in the province and believe you me, neighbours argue with neighbours and friends argue with friends and members of family argue with memb ers of family about politics. More often than not in between the elections, we have our disagreements but we have a lot in common as well. The 11 or 12 years-[interjection] What I am saying, Mr.

Acting Speaker, is that when you come to this House, what you do is you talk in terms of representing the interests of all Manitobans, not talking about the NDP and its class of people. I have raised this with the Minister of Northern Affairs who said that the problem with northerners is they do not know how to vote right. I mean that was probably a more neutral version. At least in that case, the Minister of Northern Affairs--a nd I disagreed with what he said-at least he was defining it in terms of how people vote.

We know-we just saw the last budget-we saw the 1 0 out of the 11 friendship centres just happened to be located in ND P ridings, the 11 th was in Portage, and I know the member for Portage has analyzed how the people serviced by the friendship centre vote. l know he has made various comments, but I do not want to get into his comments in terms of that, because it is on record in terms of that. Are we really at the stage, Mr. Acting Speaker, when we determine the politics of this province by the NDP and its class of people? What does that mean? Does the Minis ter of Highways (Mr. Driedger) know what that means?

Perhaps the Minister of Highways and Transportation was not in the House yesterday. If the Minister of Highways and Transportation was in opposition now-and he will be in opposition again soon enough-he would have been howling. He would have been the first one on his feet, when this government, on a motion introduced by the opposition, filibustered and refused even as a common courtesy to allow myself or other members of the opposition to speak even when it was pointed out, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that three government mem bers had been recognized in a row, each speaking the full amount of time, not one single opposition member. I have a message to the Minister of Finance and this relates specifically to what happened last night, what has happened on matters such as the Sunday shopping bill, and more generally the kind of attitudes that we are seeing brought forward in this House, Mr. Acting Speaker. This government is going to have to learn the lessons about the fu nctioning of this House.

It is going to have to recognize that it cannot be arrogant, that co-operation and consultation go a heck of a lot further than confrontation. They are going to have to--- [inte�ection] Well, the reality. They are reality and if this government insists on the kind of activities we have seen, the kind of arrogant statements, the kind of tactics we have seen in this House whereby they are denying, they are filibustering in Estimates and actually denying opposition memb ers the right to speak in the normal rotation, the normal custom of this House, that is fine. They can do that all they want, Mr.

Acting Speaker, but they should not come to us and ask for co-operation on other matters. You cannot have it both ways, as memb ers of this House like to throw back and forth to each other, particularly on the rules. If the government House leader wants to talk about co-operation in this House, he had better practise what he is preaching. Co-operation starts with respect for the rights of opposition members to speak in this House. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the government House leader could have stood in his place and said perhaps an error had been made and by courtesy, as could have any of the members that were recognized, could have said that perhaps the other member should be recognized. That has been done on many occasions. I have risen on occasion, Mr. Acting Speaker, whereby in error a Speaker has recognized myself and not a Liberal member or not a Conservative

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3151 member that should normally be recognized in the normal rotation, and I have sat down. I have given up my right to speak on that occasion, spoke at a later time. I have shown that courtesy. Let us not forget that yesterday what we saw was not just once. We saw it happen twice. I did not get up on the first time because everyone, Mr. Acting Speaker, can make mistakes, but when one clearly indicates one's wish to speak, which I had done when I rose afterwards to indicate that.

When we were in Estimates even, whereby the member for Portage could have after two minutes sat down, I could have spoken at that time. He could have risen again. There is no limit in Estimates, other than the particular limit on that one time you are speaking. He could have spoken 1 0 times afterwards. I say that indicates a lot about this House. We will deal with it in terms of the decisions of the Chair when we get into the committee. We will deal with that. We have grave concerns about the decisions that were made and have been made on matters of this kind.

It also impacts in terms of the operation of this House as well, Mr. Acting Speaker. It is a question not just of chairing and decisions that are made by a Chair. It also reflects on decisions made by this government. It is interesting. I mean, I was looking at some of the precedents in this particular case. I went back to 1982, to Points of Order raised then by Sterling Lyon. Mr. Acting Speaker, by the way, if you look at the index, that was the 1982-1 983- 1984 session. Some of the membe rs of this House will remember it well. I remember some of the key issues in that session.

It is going to be interesting to see, as we proceed through this session, and with the attitude of this government and with some of the issues that are being debated, whether history is going to repeat itself 10 years later-December 1982. Mr. Acting Speaker, I really do not understand what the government intends to achieve by its actions in this House. They can filibuster. The Premier was in Education Estimates yesterday. The Premier has to go to Education Estimates to ask qu estions to the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey)? The Premier could not ask them in cabinet?

An Honourable Member: He has a right to know. Mr. Ashton: Indeed, the Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) said, he has a right to know. It is too bad he does not know, Mr. Acting Speaker. Actually, the only thing that may be positive out of this, he may find out just what a mess there is in the education system right now by asking questions of the Minister of Education. What a spectacle. We now have the Leader of the party, the Premier, asking his own minister questions in the public forum that we have in terms of Estimates. Mr. Acting Speaker, indeed how embarrassing. * (1 500} Mr.

Acting Speaker, I must admit, when I was a government member and a backbencher, as has been the Minister of Highways and Transportation, I must admit that I did ask a few questions to the minister, similar to the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose). Puffball questions are standard, Mr. Acting Speaker. That is the term that is often-sof tball. Actually, I pointed out the T-ball season started up. The backbenchers on the government side have to Ti t up, and then the minister or the Premier gets up there and knocks it out of the park. It quite an entertaining process. Well, Mr.

Acting Speaker, now we have the Premier of this province asking puffball questions, aski ng softball qu estions to his Minis ter of Education. An Honourable Member: Was she answering? Was she giving him the right answer? Mr. Ashton: I do not think she was giving answers. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Premier is practising for the inevitability that if he sticks around .. beyond the next election, he is going to be back being Leader of the Opposition. He is going to need some training on asking questions, because that is the way they are headed politically. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, I want to conclude my remarks today by saying that the arrogance and the elitism that we are seeing in this House, the insensitivity to the opposition is something we deal with as opposition members. [interjection] Well, in terms of threats, there is no threat in explaining the reality to the minister. If they expect a filibuster in Estimates, we will make up the time that they are trying to take away from members of the opposition in concurrence. We will make it up on grievances. We will make it up in whatever way we can. This opposition is not going to be bullie d by this Conservative government.

3152 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 18, 1993 It goes beyond that, because when we speak we do not just speak on our own personal behaH. When we speak, we speak on behaH of our constituents. I am going to speak out on behalf of my constituents who, for the information of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), are being hit by his taxes.l am going to speak out against the inherent elitism that we are seeing from Tories federally and provincially, indicated even in Question Period today.

We are going to speak out against Premiers that talk about NDP and its class of people, against potential future leaders of the party federally who talk about people based on their religious persuasion or in terms of not agreeing with their politics, that they are enemies of Canada or involved with papist demons. That kind of conduct is suitable for the 1 890s.

This is the 19 90s, Manitobans expect better, and we will be speaking out against this kind of elitism that we are seeing on a daily basis from this government, whether it be in terms of the way they deal with this House, deal with members of the opposition, or deal with memb ers of the public. Thank you , Mr. Speaker. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I rise today on a grievance regarding the proposed Assiniboine diversion and the government's inability to stand up for the environment of Manitoba and work to have the federal government follow their legal mandate for a federal environment review.

The more I learn about this project, the more I am convinced that an environment review would find that this project is not good sense in environmental terms. It is also not good sense in economic terms for the long-term development of rural agriculture in the province, and, certainly, there are a number of questions that could be asked about the politics that are being played with respect to this diversion.

It was interesting and annoying today in the House in Question Period when we again asked for some kind of exp lanation about why there would be no federal environment review on this project, why the government of Manitoba has rushed ahead with only two months warning and lead time to set dates alr eady for June for the Man itoba Clean Environment Comm ission process. We know that they are rushing ahead to try and get this development up and going before the federal election, before there can be any organized court action.

This is a tactic that has been used over and over again in Canada, where developme nts are pushed through with bogus envi ronm ental assessments or no assessment at all by the proper jurisdiction. Then, after the fact, they are challenged in court, once they are already constructed, either tot ally or parti ally construc ted . Again, this government has to be taken to task and held accountable for misleading the public about whose respo nsibilit y it is to protect Manit oba's environmental interests. It is interesting that with this project again there is no talk of sustainability.

They know very well that this is not environmentally sustainable and is not a sustainable approach to agriculture and rural development. They know very well. That is why the sustainable rhetoric has been dropped even from the Premier's (Mr. Rlmon) comments on the budget, from all the Premier's speeches, all the talk when we first began this government's mandate for this term when they talked on and on about sustainability. Well, it is interesting, Mr. Speaker, that we do not hear that anymore, and it is because they know from projects like this that it is simply rhetoric.

It has been simply an attempt to shroud themselves in the current jargon that they think is going to make them popular through the media and through nondetailed scrutiny by the public. This project, I would suggest, is putting this government in the deepest hole that they could be digging for themselves. They have opposition again from members in their own caucus. There is opposition throughout southern rural Manitoba against this project. I think that there are various reasons for that.

I think that some of the opposition is coming, not from serious environmental concerns, but only because this has become a battle over water. We are going to see more and more of these kinds of battles over water into the future, and this is only the beginning. One of the important reasons for the grievance today is that this government, in collusion with the federal government, is not living up to the federal environment legislation. The federal legislation is very clear when it says that there are certain criteria that trigger a federal environment review.

This project fulfills all of those criteria under the federal environment act. This project has some $62 million or more of federal money from the PFRA

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 31 53 going to it, and that is one reason why there should be a federal environment review. When we asked the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummin gs) what rationale they have for not complying with that legislation, they try and play this game of making it look like we do not understand what we are talking about. But it is very clear, and you do not have to have very much analysis to understand that the federal act says that there should be a review when there is federal money. This project has money through the Department of Agriculture.

Note as well that this government is claiming that this project is not going to benefit food companies and irrigators, and yet we look at where the money is coming from, from the federal government, it is coming from the Department of Agriculture. Well, why is it coming from the Department of Agriculture if, as the government says, this project has nothing to do with agriculture? It is not going to benefit farmers irrigating potatoes in southern Manitoba. Now, those are legitimate questions that we would expect an answer to, but we never get any clear answers from this government on this project.

They are simply going to try and use all of their mon etary power, all of their legislative and jurisdictional power to force the project through before we can have the proper assessment. Now, there have been threats of taking this project to court, and I know that there are some national environment groups that are going to be looking at that. But the reason that they have a case is because the federal act is so clear in saying that this project should have a federal environment review. * (1 51 0) (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Another reason for that is that it is on a navigable river.

And it is amazing, when you look at the demands that have been placed on this river, the Assiniboine River, over the years, when you go and look at how much the water level has dropped and how much this flow has been reduced on the Assiniboine River. Mr. Manness: I get my water from the Assiniboine. Ms. Cerllll : The Minister of Finance says that he gets his water out of the Assiniboine. I do not know where his home is on the Assiniboine River, but I would suggest that his water quality is going to be affected no matter where.

One of the things that we are asking for -and I do not know if this government unde rstands this-the concept of a basin-wide review, because this project is going to affect wells in the area. It is going to affect the wetlands surrounding the Assiniboine River. We want to look at what is happening in this entire river basin, because not that many years ago there was a much smaller number of lagoons and other polluters putting effluent into this river. Now there are more lagoons and more industry.

This government does not seem to unde rstand the idea that you have to look at all of the impacts on the river as well as this proposal to take off more water from the river. They will say, oh, it is only 20 cubic feet per second and the river can handle it. This government should also know and consider that already the allocation of the water from the Assiniboine River is greater than the total flow.

So people downstream around Portage Ia Prairie are already using water that has completely been used once already, and it could be used by the plant at Sim plot, with Ayer st using more water, a tremendous amount of water for its operation. We are already using more than once more than the flow that is available in the river. The other reason that is a clear indication of why there should be a federal review on this project is that it affects directly aboriginal lands which border the river. The quality and the value of those lands are going to be affected by this project.

It is interesting, you know, that Long Plain Reserve is now not upstream from the diversion itself-and I will get to that point in a minute-but that there are communities that are going to be affected from decreased flow on the Assiniboine that already have serious water shortage problems. One of the reasons that there is so much concern about this project is the government goes ahead and puts out policy booklets about developing water policy, but then they go and construct projects like this which go against it.

One of the policies in documen ts such as highlights of the provincial government initiatives on water strategy policy applic ation document would say that there should not be transfer of water between basins and there should not be transfer of water to one area at the detriment of another area. That is what one of the serious concerns about this project is. This government will go ahead and will continue to

3154 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 18, 199 3 maintain or try to maintain that the water from this project is simply going to the parched area in the Carman-Winkler area. They have used bogus popula tion projections to try and justify this.

What the problem is, and they will not come clean on this and admit what is happening, is that the water--{interjection) Even if it is, even if we give them the benefit of the doubt and the treated water being pumped now from Portage Ia Prairie to the southern area of Manitoba, even if it is going to be used for human consump tion and potable water for that area, then all they are allowing to happen is for the irrigators in that area to continue to deplete the aquifer for irrigation purposes.

So, in effect, we still are having water transferred from one region of the province to the other region of the province, not for potable use, but to benefit the private irrigators. I have letters from McCain Foods and from farmers in the area commending the government on this project and talking about how important it is to develop irrigation in this area. We know that what is happe ning is the potato indu stry is trying to consolidate its operations as close as possible to the border and to the markets in the U.S.

It is a problem when we have these kind of strategies going ahead irrespective of would-be wate r policy that is being stal led from this government, and there is no attempt to conserve water and to deal with the poor infrastructure in that southern Manitoba area before we put millions of dollars into these type of water-transfer schemes.

We talked before, Madam Deputy Speaker, about the similarity of the Pembina task force proposal for the Assiniboine diversion with the South Hespeler report from the mid-'80s and how that report was clearly and openly indicating that this water di version was for irrigation pu rpose s. This government has gone on to deny that there is any relationship between these two proposals, but it is very clear when you look at them that this project for the Assiniboine diversion is exactly the same as the first of four or five stages from the South Hespeler strategy.

When we continue to ask from this government that they be accountable, that they be clear and up -front with people of Manitoba, and if they are deciding to not follow the law, if they and the federal Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Mayer, are going to go ahead and ignore the federal environment act and not have the proper environment review on this project, that they at least have some accountability and realize their responsibility for some explanation which would only comply with the requirements under the environment act for why it is that this project is being screened out.

I think that we are going to have again another project just like with the office building at Oak Hammock Marsh where after the fact there are court challenges. I would suggest that there are at least three very strong cases for why this project would not hold up in court, and we could see that happening once this project is on the way. We are asking that they be up-front now and at least have some explanation for why this project is being screened out of the federal assessment. That is, I would think, a reasonable request.

If you are going to make decisions to not follow the requirements for the federal environment review, at least have some public explanation. An Honourable Member: The feds make that decision. Ms. Cerllll : We understand that it is the federal government making that decision. That raises an other point, but there should be some explanation, and there should be some explanation in Ma nitoba, to Ma nitobans, by Man itoba's government to deal with the legitimate concerns. It is interesting, the Minister ofTransportation (Mr. Driedger) raises the issue that this was a federal decision, but whose decision was it?

It is a decision made by the PFRA under the Minister of Agriculture who is giving the $62 million or so for this project. So here we have the proponent or funder of the proponent for the project also making the decision to screen out the pr oject from the federal environment review process. If that is not the biggest conflict that there could be on such a development, then I do not know what else could happen, to have the same minister funding the project that is responsible for saying yea or nay to a federal environment review. H that is not ridiculous, I do not know what is.

It just goes to show what a whitewash the Conservatives can make of any kind of attempt to have some environmental safeguards for development. • (1 520) There are a number of other irregularities with this project that have already occurred. One of the irregularities that is another good reason why this project would stand up in court to a very legitimate

May 18, 1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3155 challenge-and again this could happen, hopefully it will not happen once the project is already developed, but this court challenge likely will happen once the provi ncial asses smen t is begun-and that is the way, the irregularity is the way that the proponent, the Pembina Valley Water Co-op, in the middle of the environmen tal assessment, has changed the project. I have with me the two Environmental Imp act Statements for the Pembina Valley regional project. Now, the first statement as anyone could see is, I would say, almost two inches thick.

It goes into great detail about the various habitats surrounding -{interjection] Well, to some detail, I would say it does not go into great detail because a lot of the research for the habitats is not available because the research is not being conducted because of lack of funding, but it talks about the existing water supplies. It talks about existing water demand. It talks about these bogus population projections. It has charts that show the various communities and their populations and their water use. It was released December 1992, and that is not that long ago.

It would give someone, if they got this then, the chance to review it and start to prepare some kind of response in preparation for an Environmental Im pact Statement. It is interesting what happened with this, is even though this report which is-how many pages, many pages, I am looking to see. (interjection] No, I am doing all right [interjection] I would say this report is over 400 pages, Madam Deputy Speaker, including all the appendices. It goes into some detail in describing this project.

Then we had, February 19 93, an add endum which radically and dramatically changed the project to having the diversion from the Assiniboine River to connect to the Boyne River which, I would say, would even be worse than what is happening now. This adden du m, Madam Deputy Speaker, is merely 21 pages long.

With an addendum that so dramatically changes the project to be so minimal and that we are expected to simply allow this to happen, we have asked if there is any kind of legal consideration that it is not acceptable or legal to, in the middle of an environmental assessment, so dramatically change a project and not have any more background information. The area being affected by the diversion has changed.

The project has been changed radically, and we would expect that it should go back to the beginning of the environm ental assessment process and that there would be a new report that would give the same kind of detail and the same kind of overview of the new project, and that there would again be a chance for people to have the same amount of time to review that report and prepare for the asses smen t, but that is not what this government has chosen to do. They have simply allowed the project to be changed in the middle of the assessment process, and they have set hearings in June.

I have raised concerns about the fact that there is only less than two months available for people to prepare for when the hearings were called. There is also the concern that has been raised about how some of the area farmers are concerned about the timing of these hearings as well. With respect to the hearings and not having the federal process, there is also the problem, not only that there will be no time for the kind of preparation that we would like to see, but there will not be any financial support for interveners.

With the kind of data that needs to be collected when you are talking about this kind of water transfer, we want to make sure that we are going to have professionals who have the opportunity to spend a large amount of their attention preparing for the hearings. I am concerned that that is not going to happen, and I think that that is one of the reasons why we are not having the federal review. It is because, if there was a federal review, then there would be intervener funding, there would be full-time research done to prepare.

I think that that would give a far closer scrutiny and far better information to show the kind of effect that this is going to have on the Assiniboine River basin. I think that that is part of the reason why they are not having the federal review. The other thing that is interesting about these projects and some of the irregularities about them is the way that we have memb ers opposite on the government's side who insist on throwing their support publicly behind these projects before they have had the proper environmental assessment. The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) is particularly noted for this.

He has done it over and over again with a number of other projects where he gives his support. I do not know if these are projects that are benefiting colleagues that he has or what have you,

3156 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MANIT OBA May 18, 1993 but again the Minister of Natural Resources has done this on the Assiniboine diversion and has even gone so far since then as we have seen on other projects, where he has had to publicly make statements retracting that support and trying to backtrack and say that he is not publicly supporting and endorsing the project before it has had the p ·oper assessment. Particularly, coming from a Minister of Natural Resources this is of great concern. It just shows the kind of attitude that this government has towards these assessments.

They do not think that there should be a legitimate time period so that people can closely look at the environmental effects. They simply see these environmental impact assess ments as something that now has to be dealt with, and I think that phrase has been used before by members opposite, so that they can go ahead and do what they would really like to do anyway.

I know that there has to be some agreement between the provincial and federal governments for their not to have the proper federal review. * (15 30) The other thing that comes to mind with respect to this project, and it could be another good reason for there to be so much opposition for it, similar to the Charleswood Bridge, similar to other things that this government supports spending money on in this time of, as they claim when it is convenient for them, economic problems, is the choice for them to support and subsidize these kinds of megaprojects and the kind of money that goes to support them, which is going to industry, at a time when that money should be going to provide the services that government is meant to provide, such as education and health care and support for people in the community who are disadvantaged.

When people say, well, we all have to tighten our belts and we do not have any money, I will point to projects like this, where governments spend millions of dollars handing it over to private individuals and corporations so that they can maximize their productivity and maximize their efforts, and that takes money away from education opportunities, health care, services for seniors, young people, child care and all those things that one thinks that government really is meant to do. That just goes to show the bias, again, that this government has.

I think a lot of them simply do see government as an opportunity to take tax dollars and divert them into industry, into often industry that is going to benefit their colleagues. I do not think it is any accident that the beneficiaries of this particular initiative are in Conse rvative constituencies. It would be interesting as well if we could do the checking and see what kind of support McCain Foods and Kroeker Farms gives to the Conservative party during election time and otherwise.

It would not surprise me at all if there is that kind of relationship that has developed, and that is why we see the kind of urgent speed in setting the environment hearings quickly before the federal election. I think that, no matter how much cash the government is securing by this project, they are losing support. They are losing support from this project. They are losing supp ort in areas where I wou ld say they traditionally have had strong support.

I think that it is environment issues generally which are going to start having people realize, and this is one of the first, this kind of choice that is being made here. These are the kinds of projects that are going to start swaying support away from the Conservatives as we see happening now, because the economic side of this project is not benefiting a lot of the rural people in rural areas. This is the kind of project that just benefits the corporate, elite, powerful individuals that run the corporations like McCain Foods.

It is tying individual producers into these irrigation schemes which are very expensive, and it uses market forces by tying these producers into corporations by requiring that they have irrigation for their crops. It uses the market forces to do this, and then it becomes very difficult for these ope rators to be able to no longer farm in that manner.

What ends up happening is all of these communities will end up being held hostage to these industries which tie them into very expensive irrigation- [inte�ection] The Minister of Natural Resources is talking about how there is no pollution in North America and how profit and a clean environment go together. Well, particularly in irrigation, this government does not want to look at the effects of large-scale irrigation on commu nities.

You can look at some of the places that the minister is referring to when you look at the increase in salinity of the soil, when you look at the increase in the use of chemicals that is required

May 18, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3157 when you use the kind of massive irrigation that is used here. It is interesting to me that the government is so rigid in its approach to this style of farming that they do not look even at other styles. They do not even look at other styles of irrigation. I have heard that there is a different kind of irrigation, drip irrigation, that would use less water because the irrigation does not just spray the water into the air, where more of it is just evaporated and where there would be water more closely and directly put into the soil.

All of these are considerations that I hope will come forward during the assessment. I think, if we start to look mor e holis tical ly through cur environmental assessments, we will see that, even if this project is going to be used at this time for drinking water in the southern Manitoba area, it is setting up the opportunity to continue to use the aquifer to deplete the aquifer for irrigation. It is interesting at the same time that this is going on that more irrigation permits are being given out in this area, that $2.8 million is being spent on another reservoir scheme to trap water for irrigation.

I would think that the government has a very narrow and limited view of what kind of diver sification could happen in rural Manitoba. With projects like this, the issue also becomes control over our natural resources, control over agriculture and the misuse of public money to hand over that control to private industry. One of the things that I also think is important to talk about with respect to the Assiniboine diversion is the City of Winnipeg's concerns and the amount of water that is required to flow through the city of Winnipeg, so its sewage can be properly dealt with.

The sewage plant in the west end in the city of Winnipeg has serious concerns I would think about having decreased flow coming throu gh the Assiniboine River and the city of Winnipeg. It is interesting that now we have the provincial government admitting that they are remiss in not setting some hearings for this important project in Winnipeg when there has been, I think it is, unanimous passing of a resolution by the city by our councillors, our duly elected council, to raise concerns about the developments.

Some of the councillors outright oppose this project for some of the reasons I have explained, but the resolution asked for the proper federal review or at le

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-65
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 65.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	57a8aac394c04da3bd15a98397c46667e5edfc3e

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).