Manitoba Hansard — 16 March 1977 (Sitting 20, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-20

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Wednesday, March 16, 1977 TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox(Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable memb ers to the gallery where we have 24 students, Gr ade 4 standing, of the Margaret Park School under the direction of Mrs. Smith. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Fi nance and Ur ban Affairs. We also have 28students, Gr ades 7 and Bstanding, of the Baldur School under the dir ection of Mr. Yaremchuk and Mrs. Hawks.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. And we have 10 students, Grade 9 standing, of the River Heights School under the direction of Mrs. Bowman, from the constituency of the Honourable Member for River Heigh ts. And 7 mem bers of the Red River Community College under the direction of Miss McCaskill. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by St anding and Special Com mittees.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultur e. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a Return to Order of the House No. 10. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements; Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hig hways. HONOURABLE PETER BURTNIAK (Dauphin) introd uced Bill (No. 29)

an Act to amend The Snowmobile Act; and Bill (No. 30)

an Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface) introduced Bill (No. 32)

an Act to amend The Hospitals Act; and Bill (No. 33)

an Act to amend The Licensed Practical Nurses Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Th ank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Renewable Resources. The question is in light of the fact that we will be consideri ng his Estimates this afternoon, has the Minister available for those conside rations the last annual copy of the Annual Report of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resources. HONOURABLE HARVEY BOSTROM(Rupertsland): Mr.

Speaker, I don't believe that I have received a copy, in my office, of the immediate last fiscal year's report. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I note by media accounts that the Federal MPs are having simi lar difficulties in getting that copy. Has the Minister made any attempts at getting that copy, before we consider his Estimates beginn ing this afternoon? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, we expect we will receive the report when it is completed. I have no idea of why the Federal Government has not published this report yet. At least they have not informed us. I might point out, Mr.

Speaker, that this is not one of the items whic h is included within the Estimates of my department. This is a Federal Government responsibility. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENN S: Mr. Speaker, I am fully aware of the responsibili ty the Federal Government has in his field, I am also aware of the responsibi lity the Mini ster has in his field. MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR.

ENNS: My final supplementary question: Does the Minister have any information that he is aware of or does his department have any information that would concur with the Auditor-General's comm ents about the Freshwater Fish Marketing's books, that they leave a great deal to be desir ed? MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, it is not within the responsibil ity or jur isdiction of my department to oversee the books of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation . I'm afraid that we do not have access to those records and we do not, ther efore, have any comments further to that which has been made by the Federal auditors. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, another question to the same Minister. Has the Mini ster in the last few days received a specific request from either Lake Wi nnipeg or Lake Manitoba fishermen to opt out of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation? 763

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I had on my desk yesterday morning an unsig ned typewritten statement indicating that there was some desi re on the part of the fishermen who call themselv es the Lake Wi nnipeg Fishermen's Association, I believe based in Gimli, that they would request opting out of the Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Labour.

A couple of days ago the Minister indicated to the House that there would be some good news in respect - he was getting the parties together at Gr iffin Steel. Can he indic ate any reports? Have the parties been together or was the Minister able to get them together? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY {Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia and I concur in the basic premise of his question that we have not, as we have been accused of by some people, been sitting on our fannies doing nothing in this industrial dispute.

I did have a meeting, as I announced to the House the other day, with representatives of CAI MAW Union and I gave an undertaking that I would do everyth ing with in my power to approach management's side with the objective in mind of having them sit around the bargaining table once more after this long period of time. I did speak to the solicitor for Gr iffin wheel and asked that negotiations be resumed. I'm happy to indic ate to my honourable friend that my request was met in a positive approach by Grif fin wheel , and I'm hopeful that they will be back around the bargaining table soon.

I haven't had an up-to-date report this morning but I do want to indicate to the House, Mr. Speaker, that one of my conciliation officers I should n't say my conciliation officers - one of the conciliation officers of the Department of Labour has been engaged in discussions with both and the management group. Management have made certain requests for agreement with the Union that if agreed upon, then they're prepared to go back to the bargaining ta ble.

I think the so-called caveat, to use that word in its extreme, issued by the company is of a nature that I am very hopeful will be accepted by the Union and that the parties, either this mor ning or very shortly, will be back at the bargaining table. I'm sure my honourable friend would not expect me to disclose the full significance and contents of that caveat at this time because the type of caveat and the wording of it is confidential and I th ink my honourable friend, in the interests of bargaining would not ask me or insist of me to give him those conditions. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In view of some reports this afternoon that talks have been broken down or delayed and if the Minister cannot get the two parties together within the next few days, would he use the last resource, the veh icle that he has at his disposal, and cause an industrial inquir y into the whole thing and perhaps get them back together ? MR. SPEAKER: Part of the question is hypothe tical. The question is hypothe tical. MR. PATRICK: Do you reject it, Sir ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia wish to reph rase? MR. PATRICK: Yes, I will reph rase my question, Mr. Speaker.

Has the Minister given up or is he not prepared to cause an industrial enquiry into the dispute? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think my stance in the House and outside of the House in respect of an industrial enquiry commission has constantly been that at this particular time, and that's the ph raseology I used two or three weeks ago, no useful purpose would be served by an industrial enquir y comm ission. Accompanying with that answer, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to my honourable friend that I am most hopeful that it would not be necessary because I do feel, and of course I have reservations, I do feel that there is every possibil ity, despite some opposition, that the two parties will be back around the bar gaining table with in a short period of time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: A question to the Attorney-Gener al. Wo uld the Minister be able to tell the House what bail, if any, was set for Mr. Patrick and Mr. Wr ight, after their first arrest on the crime of violence?

And would the Minister indicate if bail has been arranged after the ir second arrest? Regard ing the rape charges. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, can I rise on a point of privi lege. Can the Memberfor Wolseley qualify which Mr. Patrick? MR. WILSON: We ll, to reword the question I was asking the Attorney-General if Mr. Allan Patrick and Mr. Wi lmer Wright, what bail has been set after their second arrest on the charge of rape and bribery? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, this : is a matter which would be a matter of public record, it's a matter being processed th rough the courts and I would suggest to the honourable member that if he would check I'm sure he could obtain that information from the courts. 1 th ink that would be a much more suitable place than to attempt to enlist that information thr ough the 764

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Wel l, a supplementary, then. Is the Minister's department contem plating holding rape suspects until their trials come around without bail? Because of the fact that these suspects continually seem to come up in problems prior to their trial, is his department contemplating a tougher stand or withdrawing bail from them? MR. SPEAKER: Policy question. Order please. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BAN MAN: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I dir ect my question to the Fi rst Minister in ligh t of the fact that the Minister in charge of Manitoba Development Corporation is not in the House at this time and I would wonder if, in light of the announcements of the th ird executive of Flyer Industries having resigned, I wonder if the Fi rst Minister could inform the House whether Flyer is undergoing a wholesale management change? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Wel l, Mr. Speaker, the distinction as between wholesale and retail isn't always that perceptible.

There is, by deg ree, some change in management, but that would be true of any living institution. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Fi rst Minister could inform the House whether the management problem at Flyer presently is hurting the tendering ability of this government-owned bus company? MR. SPEAKER: Asking for an opinion. The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. SCHREYER: My opinion would be that it's probably hurting no more or less than the kind of publicity that attaches to questions that wouldn't have any solution in any case. MR. BANMAN: Fina l supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

I wonder if he could inform the House whether the Manitoba Development Corporation is actively trying to recruit management personnel to fi ll these vacancies left by the thr ee resignations? MR. SCHREYER: As required. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I di rect a question to the Fi rst Minister. it's in regards to Orders for Return which were filed in last year's session. I wonder if he could undertake to advise the House, when replies migh t be received for Orders No. 2, No. 5, 27, 30, 31 , 34, 36, 39, 40 and 41 ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take note of the numbers as read into the record now. I'm wonderi ng if those numbers include the Return which I did file last week which ran to some 300 pages or more. But in any case we'll take tomorrow's issue of Hansard and take those numbers and bring the Returns forward. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the last one I record as being filed is No. 42 which was filed last week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: The Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker.

Wo uld the Minister please explain to the House the method of hir ing with a rain check per diem. I have searched the Ord ers-in-Council without results regarding the comm ission pertaining to Mr. Murdoch MacKay. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: The appointment of an Industrial Enq uiry Co mmi ssion is a prerogative of the Minister of Labour in the case that my honourable friend refers to. I th ink I used exceptional judgment in the appointment of the Industrial Enquiry Comm issioner and there was no requirement to state a per diem rate for the individua l .

I want to assure my hon ourable friend that as a competent Member of Cabinet, I am quite concerned with the Public Treasury. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I asked if it was a government policy to hir e without a pre-arranged salary and I was hoping the Minister would have time today to tell whether the member was writing his own cheque. MR. PAULLEY: I can assure my honourable friend and his laughing colleagues that any request for payment that comes on my desk is subject of intense scruti ny before payment is approved. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. · MR. WARNER H.

JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to di rect my question to the Attorney General. The question is based on the seemin gly large increase or the profusion of news releases that are now coming out of the office of the Liquor Control Comm issioner, and I wonder if the Attorney-General could advise the House whether he is using his office as a comm issioner of the Liquor Control Commi ssion in promo ting a place in this place as an elected mem ber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would also like to ask the Attorney-General a question regarding the Liquor Comm ission. I would like to ask if there are any proposed increases in the price of alcoholic spir its in the Province of Manitoba in the near future. 765

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 A MEMBER: Not ti ll after the election. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can he indicate to the House or clarify the present situation in respect to the Canada Winter Games? Have the games been awarded to Brand on or have they not? Ther e seems to be some confusion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, in the name of Manitoba I made a statement yesterday that we were ready to make the contri bution asked of us.

The decision as to where the games will be held , if they will be held, rests with the Federal Government, so you'll have to ask the Federal Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I want to dir ect a supplementary question to the Attorney General and ask him if he feels that Mr. Syms is using his position properly in attempting to promote hi mself for office at the taxpayers' expense. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm satisfied that Mr.

Syms, the Chai rman of the Liquor Control Commission is attending to his responsibil ities in so doing. He has incumbent upon him a responsibility to do those duties to his very very best, and insofar as how that reflects upon him, of course, only time will tell. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Chur chill. Order please. MR. LES OSLAND: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Northern Affairs. I would request the status of the winter roads in the north please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HONOURABLE RONALD McBRYDE (The Pas): We ll, Mr.

Speaker, because of the mild weather the winter road from Bloodvein to Island Lake area, these side roads are now officially closed. The road from The Pas to Moose Lake is officially closed, and the road from South Bay to South Indian Lake is closed. There is some traffic using those roads, but they are doing so at their own risk at this time. The road from Norway House is in good condition and will remain open for the next few days to allow freight in.

The roads from Jenp eg to Oxford House and God's Narrows are in fair condition and they are open 24 hours a day at this time and will remain open until the freight is in or until the weather gets warm again and traffic can no longer pass over them. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, assuming that the Honourable Member for Morris asked the question in a non-bantering way and I assume he did, I would like to indicate that with respect to one's perception as to whether or not ther e is too much publicity, not enough publicity or just about the right amount of publicity with respect to the operations of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission, that with respect, for example, if that's what my honourable friend has in mind, to some publicity attaching to Mr.

Syms just the other day, it was that he was speaking at a panel on the invitation of a school division oft he province, chai red by the school chairman, and that whatever was reported thereupon would flow naturally from that particular occasion and its nature. I would say, if it gives any comfort to my honourable friend, that personally I sometimes get the impression that there is perhaps a bit - it's a matter of judgement - hyper-publicity or excessive, slight deg ree of excessive publicity attaching to liquor control matters but it's a matter of minor degree and a matter of personal judgement. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, the Fi rst Minister's efforts to cover up might have been acceptable . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Ques tion. MR. JORGENSON .. . if it were not for the fact that ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Fi rst Minister have a point of order? MR. SCHREYER: Yes, I have a point of privi lege, at least I believe it to be and that is the use of the word "cover -up." I was indeed attempting to elaborate further on a reply given by my colleague. That would seem to me as the very antithesis of covering up.

If my honour able friend isn't interested in information, then I migh t as well desist. MR. JORGENSON: If the Minister is going to be given an opportunity to elaborate further, then I want to explain what I have to say. The fact is that what I ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. Order Please. MR. JAMES H. BIL TON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Northern Affairs if I may.

With the reported closure of the northern winter roads, can the Minister tell us approximately the tonnage that's outstanding yet to be del ivered and how it is going to be delivered? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, the roads that were open were open for the amount of time that we said they would be open. If there is tonnage still to go over some of those routes, then it would be the 766

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 lateness of those wanting to have the goods deliver ed that is causing the problem. There are only about four loads left to go into Norway House and they' ll go over the next couple of days. There are about 20 loads to go into God's Narrows-Oxford and about 20 loads to come out of God's Narrows Oxford whic h could be done in a week and if the weather stays cold for a week, there'll be no problem in getting those particular supplies in. The tonnage to date is that 84 mi llion pounds of freight have been moved over this system.

That figur e includes 40 mill ion pounds of pulpwood from Moose Lake to The Pas. MR. BIL TON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The Minister has mentioned the tonnage that has already gone. Could he tell us the tonnage that is yet to be delivered and how it's going to be delivered and the approximate cost? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chai rman, I did mention for the honourable mem ber that there were about20 loads yet to go into Oxford-God's Narrows; about 4 truckloads to Norway House which might be on their way right now.

If the honourable member is implying that if and when the Conservatives - God forbid - should ever come to office that they'll control the weather, that's a statement he might want to make but I can't. MR. BIL TON: I appreciate the Minister's humour, Mr. Speaker. I'm not going to follow the same lines. Does he intend to fly this material in, Sir? MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I've explained to the honourable member for the last six years at least; every year I have to explain the same thing to him but I'll do it again. The Department of Northern Affairs is involved in the construction of winter roads.

We let the people that want to deliv er goods and the people that contract to deliver goods know when the roads are open, how long we expect to keep them open providing the weather is reasonable. lt is up to them to deliver the goods. lf some of the suppliers haven't started to deliver goods yet, then they're probably going to be in trouble. I don't know how they' ll get thei r goods in. They'll have to worry about that. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would call in sequence the adjourned debates for second readi ng.

ADJOURNED DEBATES- SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No.2. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No.4. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge - and Bill No.5. Stand both? MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, the member was ready to speak. He was tied up with a constituent. If somebody else wants to speak he may but the member was ready to speak. MR. SPEAKER: We'll go on to No. 5 and see if he comes back. Bill No. 12, the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. BILL (NO. 12)-

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES ELECTIONS ACT HONOURABLE BILLIE URUSKI (St.George): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. lt will only take a few moments tor me. I've had a chance to peruse the remarks of the Honourable Member for Gladstone and the Member tor Assiniboia and I want to indic ate to the honourable members, I thank them for the remarks, the Member for Assinib oia raised the question about the length of time, the days for Court of Revision being brought down to either one or two days from three.

We have found from councils and from secretary-treasurers who have primarily conducted those Courts of Revision that they have really spent three days sitting alone dur ing that period of time and it's on the suggestions that have been from district meeti ngs and the like that we have incorporated that change to leave it flexi ble as the case may up to each individual council the rest ofthe changes that are proposed will be dealt with in committee and of course are primari ly of a housekeeping nature. MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt second reading of Bill No. 12? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 12, the Honourable Minister was closing debate. QUESTION put MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 15, the Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: May I have the matter stand, Mr. Speaker? (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member was absent for Bi 11 No.2. Does he wish to go on that one? MR. WILSON: No. Stand, Mr. Speaker. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: That cleans up all the bills. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. SPEAKER: That cleans up all the bills. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before presenting the official motion that you leave the Chair, I would like to remind honourable members that we will commence the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development in the Assembly this afternoon and also that the Estimates of the 767

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 Department of Renewable Resources will be held in 254. lt is antici- pated that following the presentation of the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development, the Department of Labour wi 11 follow in the Assembly and that following the deli berations on Renewable Resources in Room 254, the Department of Northern Affairs will follow. With that information to my honourable friends in the Assembly, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable, the Minister of Renewable Resources, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. JORGENSON: Before the Motion is put, I would like to protest the actions of the House Leader. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Let me place the Motion ... MR. JORGENSON: Then I raise a point of order ... MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member can speak on a grievance if he'd just . MR. JORGENSON: The point of order is that traditionally in this Chamber, since we adopted the new rules, the order in which the Estimates will appear outside the House is determi ned by the opposition.

Ther e has been no consultation with the House Leader on that particular point. We agreed to allow the Department of Renewable Resources to go in ther e at this time. I will tell him when the other departments will go in there and what other departments. Until then, I want him to keep his counsel to him self. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour on the same point of order. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

On the same point of order, I did have some discussion with the honourable member who has just sat down and there was indecision at that particular time as to whether or not the Estimates of Renewable Resources would follow Agriculture or whether it would be Northern Affairs, one or the other.

Now, if my honourable friend is so irate that I didn't really clearly deli neate to him which department would follow the Department of Renewable Resources, I apologize to my honourable friend ; I would suggest that he keep hi s cool and I am prepared to discuss with him at his convenience what department should follow the Department of Renewable Resources. The last thing I want is any repetition of the irateness of my honourable friend, the Member for Morris.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chai r for Health and Social Development and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chai r for Renewable Resources and Transportation Services. 768

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES- HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins(Logan): I would refer honourable mem bers to Page 27, The Department of Health and Social Development, Resolution 58(a) (1 ) Minister's Com pensation - Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJARDINS(St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I hope that things will cool down a bit, and that we'll be able to look at the Estimates of the department in a business-like way.

I believe, Sir, that it is apparent that given the limi ted time that I have to make these open remarks, it would not be possible for me to comment on each and every activity of the Department of Health and Social Development. The members, no doubt, are anxious to review the Estimates of the department in detail and 1 will make every effort to provide prompt and complete replies. Consequently, I will restrict my comments to some of the most im portant features of the Estimates as well as a number of developmen ts which have taken place over the past year. lt will be remembered, Mr.

Chair man, that in 19 76 I placed before the comm ittee a request for 1. 3 percent more in staff man years, which I described as a virtual no-growth situation. At the same time the total funding request represented a 25 percent increase over the previous year. You will recall, Mr. Chair man, that these figures reflected an effort by the department to strike a balance between fiscal restraint and the necessity to provide essential health and social services.

Over the next year, Manitoba faces the same kinds of economic and social pressure that existed last year, and as a consequence the 19 77-78 fiscal year will require a simila r type of discipline. For this reason the Estimates before you, Mr. Chairman, will request an increase of less than one percent in staff and an overall increase of funding of approximately 8 percent.

I feel that the members will acknowledge that under the constraint facing us today, the Estimates of this department demonstrate a commi tment to establish reasonable expectations, identify meaningful priorities, and exercise cost consciousness. lt goes without saying, Mr. Chairman, that in the field of hum an services it is impr actical and impr udent to apply a fiscal criteria to all programs and services.

In the face of risi ng costs, it would be both simple-mind ed and irresponsible merely to place the iron-hand on restraint, on future developments, and thereby disr egard the possible ramifications of neglect. In the Department of Health and Social Development we have recognized that the field of child and family services, which has experien ced a considerable escalation in expenditu res, requires particular attention, not only because of an increasing financial burden, but also for a wide range of programatic and organizational factors needing review and assessment. For these reasons, Mr.

Chairman, the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development will include a request for a special program expansion and development fund, which will be utilized to im prove the child and family service system. Part of this fund will be used to increase the rates of payment to foster parents by approximately 35 percent and a new integrated and co-ordinated child abuse unit will be developed. As a related development, an extended care facility for the treatment of emotionally disturbed chi ldren and adolescents will become operational with in the next year.

The department also will make arrangements to hir e a number of native family counsellors to deal with the special problems facing native people living in Wi nnipeg. Because the placement of ch ildren requiring care is one of the princ ipal necessities in the child welfare system , and ther efore one of the department's main objectives will be to discuss with the Childr en's Aid Society the feasibil ity of establishing a panelling process desig ned to ensure the placement of childr en in environ ments most suitable for their well-being.

As we focus more sharply on chil d and family services, we will work in close liaison with Childr en's Aid Societies and institutional care providers. One of the important responsibil ities we have though with our chi ldren is to ensure that seri ous ailme nts do not go undetected. In our effort to meet this obligation, the Department of Health and Social Development will be making a new thrust in improving heari ng screening programs.

Under this prog ram a mobile van with an audiologist and portable equipment will be used to visit schools in a service developed along lines simi lar to that of the Childr en's Dental Health Program. Childr en identified as having hearing problems in the schools, through the mobile van services, will be referred to established centres in Wi nnipeg as we ll as two new regional hearing centres to be developed in Thompson and Bran don. At these centres further assessment will be made, after which treatment will be provided or referral to specialized medic al professionals will be made.

In addition, in order to co-ordinate assessment, treatment and follow-up activities, an office of heari ng conservation will be developed. I am pleased to report that several of the department's major new programs of recent years are developing well. The Chi ldren's Dental Program, f.o� examp! e, � as initiated in Se�tember of 19 76, utilizing seven dental nurses' teams and two superv1smg dentists m the lnterlake reg1on, Swan Valley and Duck Mountain School Divisions, as well as the City of Flin Flon .

Approximately 1, 400 six-year aids in nine school divisions were eligib le for the program and at this time we are experi encing over eig hty percent partici pation. The program will be expanded to other regions later in 19 77. The Chil dren's Day Care Program also expanded in 19 76. The program now includes over 16 0 group day care centers, 200 family care homes, providin g over 5,200spaces for childr en. Atthe same 769

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 time efforts have been made to im prove the program by increasing the per diem fees that the day care canters can charge, as well as the maximum income below which families are eligi ble for subsid ization of thei r day care costs. We are particularly proud of the day care program, as it has been one of the most progressive and well-financed programs in Canada, while at the same time acknowledging responsibility of the individual canters to operate their own services. The Estimates before the members, Mr.

Chairman, will provide the increase per diem charge as well as a modest expansion of the program in 19 77 and 19 78. The Home Care Program also saw an increase in utilization in 19 76. Serving approximately 7% percent of Manitoba's population over the age of sixty-five, this service which has been acknowledged as one of the finest of its type in the country, has proved to be an appropriate and economical alternative to high er levels of care. With an ongoing care load of about 8,500 it has provided individuals with an opportunity to maintain a degr ee of independence in the commun ity.

The Estimates of the department include a request that will provide for normal expansion of this program. In addition, the department will introduce a Home Renal Dialysis Program for carefully selected patients. The department will provide equipment, instruction, and support staff. Because the home care program has developed so rapidly, we have experienced additional pressures in our more traditional public health efforts. Consequently, Mr. Chai rman, we are seeking approval for funds to provide for an additional ten public nurses to provide these vital services. Mr.

Chai rman, before the members begin their detailed examination of the Estimates, I would like to take the opportunity to express a brief personal view arising out of my two years in this very large portfolio. Wh en I first appeared before this comm ittee as Minister of Health and Social Development, I cautioned the members that I had a great deal to learn about the department.

Since then I've had much homework to do and indeed I have become acquainted with a wide range of programs and services offered, not only by the Department of Health, but also by the many agencies, organizations, and facilities funded by the department. I have grown to respect the various providers of services and I owe a special debt of thanks to the many dedi cated individuals in the Civil Service. Of these I'm particularly appreciative, of work done by my senior officals includin g my Deputy Minister, Mr. Ron Johns tone, Dr. R. Tavener, our Chie f Medical Consultant, Mr.

Don Mclean , our Assistant Deputy Minister of Co mmunity Services, Mr. Ron Hikel, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Social Security Division, Mr. Reg Edwards, Chairman and Executive Director of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and Mr. Dave Wer thman, co-ordinator for the department. I only wish that the mem bers as well as the public could recognize the long and difficult hours that these gentlemen contri bute in the services of the people of Manitoba. Of all the thi ngs I have learned perhaps the most im portant is how much more there is to know. I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that all mem bers will agree the hardest problems we confront are those that involve people. The Department of Health and Social Development is, if anything, a people oriented department. All our programs and services relate to the needs and problems confronting people. More importantly, the people whom we serve often are those who face particular crisis. Our clients are individuals with physical ailments, financial distress, mental illness and social disabilities. Many of our clients are too young to care for thems elves and have no one to turn to but government.

Many of the people we serve are old and infirm and we have a responsibil ity to see that they receive the services they need in their declinin g years. Many of our clients have proven themselves to be unable to cope with the ordinary pressures of living and they turn to us for help. Over the past two years, Mr. Chairman, I have learned how difficult these problems are. Frankly, I do not believe it is possible for a government to remedy every ill, to solve every human problem and spending more will not necessarily result in solutions.

I must say it is the attempt to meet the challeng e of human needs that is the source of our greatest frustration and our hig hest hopes. We know that we cannot do it all but as responsible representatives of the people, and more sign ificantly as compassionate human beings, we accept gladly the challenge of improving the human condition and mini mizing human suffering. lt is in that spir it, Mr. Chairman, that I respectfully submit the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development. Now, before sitting down, Mr.

Chai rman, I th ink it would be helpful if I dealt at this time, and not necessarily repeat at every issue, that I dealt with the staff man year in the department. I would like to say that last year the total, that is the department and the Manitoba Health Services m mission, but I'm leaving corrective and rehabil itative services out of that because the Minister is well capable of dealing with that hi mself. We ll the total of these people that answer to my min istry was in 19 76-77, 4,210.

I'll repeat that slowly and I hope that those that are interested will ta�e notes so we cC?uld proceed. lt was 4,21 0 and this year, the total for the department and the Mamtoba Health Serv1ces Comm ission is 4,241 Y2 for an increase of 31 %. A MEMBER: Are you the half? MR. DESJARDINS: You're flatteri ng me, I didn't realize I was .. . all right. The last year, again I repeat this does not include corrective and rehabil itative services, just the department and the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission, 4,21 0. This year 4,241 %f or an increase of 31 V2.

Now, besides that there were 23 positions that were either transferred or abolished. So if you add the 31 Y2 and those 23, which are not new positions that is not additional staff man year, I will tell you where these positions are. Now there are 23 and if I go a little too fast jus� slow me down a bit, 23 i� the child �en dental program, whic h is actually a new progra� ; 10t he P�bl1c � ealth Nurs_es �sI ment1C?ned earlier; 5 Conti nuing Care Program or Home Care; 3 Off1ce of Res1dent1al Care, wh1ch IS someth mg new and 770

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 I certainly hope that we can discuss this, I th ink it is quite important; 2 for the Day Care; 5 New Careers, these are Native peo ple; 1 Child Welfare; Home Ec 1; Income Security 1; Fitness and Development %. That is only the department, that was 28 V2 for the department and ther e's th ree addition of these 31 %, th ree of those were addition for the Manitoba Health Service Comm ission and we can deal with them at that time. Now to, you know this could be only half the story if I don't talk about the Contract staff.

Because if I'm switching and getting mor e people on contract, we're not improving too much. Last year, the end of 19 76, the people on contract were 19 0; the department 47 and Mincome 14 3, so a total of 19 0. This year 34 or minus 13 , 34 for the department and 97, or 46 for Mincome for a total of 13 1, or a reduction of 59. And in approximately th ree months there will be another ten or so whose contracts should be finished. So now I th ink that's as complete as I can give you as far as the staff and if it is your wish now, Mr. Chairman , I would like to go on with the scrutiny of the department. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The procedure now is that we'll leave this item and return to it at the completion of the rest of the Department of Health Estimates. We 'll now go to Resolution 58(a)

(2) Salaries $18 1 ,000.00. The Honourable Member for Rh ineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chair man, we appreciate the brief introduction by the Minister. We appreciate the fact that his department is going to show restraint. We are dealing with a department with an expenditure of $430 million and I believe that this growing cost of health and social development is a concern to everybody. So we are pleased to see that the Min ister says that they are going to practice restraint. I wonder under this fi rst item, Mr.

Chai rman, before we go to the first item, maybe I should just for the benefit of the Chai rman, maybe I should just tell him that my colleague, the Member from Fort Garry, is going to assist me in these Estimates and he will be primarily dealing with the Social Development part of the Estimates. -(I nterjection)- He's an expert, yes. My first question is, can the Minister identify some of the people that are involved in this salary of $18 1 ,000.00? By identifying, I mean are these professional people, most of them, or what qualifications do these people have?

And if I just may, I have a fu rther question over here. The salary has decreased by $1 ,500.00. Last year the Minister spent $1 82,500 and budgeted was $1 67,700.00. Can the Minister explain why there seemed to be an overexpenditure last year? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the staff man year was the thing that we thorou ghl y looked at last year. lt's the same people, the Deputy Minister, the Assistants to the Minister and Deputy Minister and secretarial staff and so on. We are working as a- here my honourable friend should remember that last year I talked about working more as a team.

Now, we didn't spend all that money last year; it wasn't that we overspent. Because of the restraint during the year we didn't fill many of the positions and we are going to phase this in. The positions are there, the y're recognized, but again, continuing the restraint, we are phasing these positions in and some of these people will certainly not be there all year, so ther efore we will need less money. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (a) (2)-pass; (a)

(3) Other Expenditu res $81 ,200-pass; 58(

b) Social Services Advisory Co mm ittee:

(1) Salaries $54,200. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chai rman, I believe that under this item we can perhaps discuss the functions and what kind of advice the Minister is getting from the Advisory Comm ittee. Can we deal with such things as the present ratio of the hospital beds per thousand people in, say, the City of Winnip eg and in the Prov ince of Manitoba, or under what item can we start discussing that? Wo uld it be under "P olicy," on the next item, "Policy Comm ittee" under (c)? MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr.

Chairman, we would suggest that we deal with personal care and hospital beds and so on under the Man itoba Health Services Commis sion. This is the responsibility of the Comm ission. This is only the Advisory Committee, the social - what did they call it last year (I nterjection)- Yes, and they changed the name, that's the only thing that is covered in here. lt's the welfare appeal system, is in there also. MR. CHAIRMAN: For a point of clarification for the Chair, ther:t that would be on Page 34, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhin eland. MR.

BROWN: 1 wonder if the Minister can tell us how many appeals this board dealt with? How many appeals did this board deal with in the last fiscal year? MR. DESJARDINS: Projected 400 appeals. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(b)(1). The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister, under this item, could bring us up-_to date on the issue that was raised last year concerning the report that was done by the Canad1an Council on Social Development on the legal rights of those on social assistance in relation to questions of privacy? 1 believe that last year in the Estimates he said that he would u_ndertake: to review that report and see how it applied to Manitoba.

I wonder if he has had an opportumty to rev1ew that at this time and determ ine whether the particular allegations that were made at that time concerning the abrogation of certain rig hts of indivi �uals were in fact applying_ in this Province? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I must apolog1ze to the member. If he sa1d that I made that statement 1 did, but 1 don't remember and I couldn't comm ent at this time. I'll have to take the questi�n as notice.

I'm ready to discuss the work of the appeal and the success and so on _or the rates m different municipalities, but to comment on this report, I'll have t� t!'lke that as not1ce. . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chai rman, I would also like to ask the M1mster, then, whether under th1s item relating to the status �f people on social assi�tance, i_f the de:partment has begun to e�amine the issue of the housi ng 1ocat1ons for people on soc1al serv1ce ass1stance programs? What s become 771

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 apparent, both through the tragedies related to the fire problems, but also I th ink some of the other circumstances are pointing out that many families or individu als who are on social assistance are put into substandard housing and thatfind very little recourse for appeal on it.

I wonder if the Minis ter would be prepared or the department is prepared to examine the situation in relation to the position of those on social assistance to determ ine whether their housing standards are at least fair and equitable and clean and sanitary, and that they are not being subjected simply to finding a place no matter what it may be like. I th ink that that was certainly one of the issues that came up as a result of the inquest into the Town and Country fire. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDINS: We ll, Mr.

Chai rman, there is no doubt that the staff who are trying to help these people - and there's a limi ted staff - that will do everyth ing possible to provide the best accommodation available. lt is not our responsibil ity - I'm not saying concern - but it is not the responsibil ity of the department to build houses and so on. So we certainly will try to get the best facilities and the cleanest facilities that we could manage for these people. Now the city also has a responsibi lity in this because I th ink that the problem is probably more pronounced in the City of Wi nnipeg than in other areas.

I think that that is clear, and of course, they do the administration of the welfare program in Wi nnipeg, helping these people with the housing and so on. Now related to that, that I'll cover later on, we felt that we have been lax in inspecting, for instance, guest homes and some of these homes and working with their standards, and we're working with the city now to create an office that will do more of that.

We've been lax in the past, but t as far as strictly people, we're there to provide the rental to assist them get the best facil ities, but we'll have to rely on other departments and on the city to provide the housing. We can't do anything if the housing is not there. I'm not saying I'm not concerned as a Member of the Cabinet, but it is not my direct responsibil ity as Minister of Health at thi s time. We can only do the best we can under the existi ng situation. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, following up on that I'd like to ask the Minister then, if it is a customary practice when the social worker who is dealing with a family who receives social assistance, to examine the conditions of the housing and to make a report so that there is some form of information as to exactly what is taking place in relation to that accommodation; and that if those reports are ever assembled and if there is any information the Minister has that he can provide us in terms of the kind of accommodation that people on social assitance are living in at this stage. MR.

DESJARDINS: As I stated it is the Department of Health, but that administration of t hat part of the City of Wi nnipeg is done by the city, and we have no such record.

Mind you, if we can get at someth ing else, I would hope that some day - and I think it would be better, the people would be better served, not that we necessarily do a better job - but if it was co-ordinated and if we accepted the responsibil ity of probably delivering the services in Wi nnipeg, we don't want to im pose on the city, but I might say informally, if we were requested to do so we would sit down and talk to them and consider it very seriously. I th ink this would help, I don't say we'd do a better job, but we'd have the responsibil ity of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

BIL TON: Mr. Chairman, just as a matter of clarification. I notice that there's an item here, Mr. Minister, "R ecoverable from Canada $50,000.00." I wonder if he could - and I notice this goes on all the way through the Estimates - I wonder if he could explain to us probably briefly just how this is brought about? Does the department decide on an overall figur e for a particular function and then negotiate with Ottawa insofar as the refundable amount is concerned? I notice in this instance it's almost half of the item, but in other areas the people cif Manitoba are carryi ng quite a load. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: lt is someth ing that will be difficult to know if this will keep on. In fact, we're practically certain that there will be some other arrangements, but presently these are under certain arrangements between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. For instance, in this item here, that 50 percent of all welfare is paid back to the provinces by the Federal Government including admi nistration. This is part of the administration, so the admin istration part, this would be the 50 percent that we would get back.

But this is also subject to change with the changes in funding and cost-sharing and so on that is being negotiated now or being enacted legislation by the Federal Govern ment. MR. BIL TON: I take it from the Minister that each item is negotiated with the federal health authorities. But how is that figur e arrived at all the way through the Estimates? MR. DESJARDINS: Under the agreement we determ ine this and the Federal Government accepts the figur es.

Of course, we don't decide what percentage and so on, this is clearly under this and in most instances it is 50 percent of certain costs as through existi ng legis lation at this time. Now this is under the Canada Assistance Plan. lt is 50 percent including - and this is why you see a certain amount here - including administration needed to provide these services. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, one of the intriguing items in this particular Estim ate is the fact that there has been a cutback in the absolute dollar fig ures of what used to be called the Welfare Advisory Comm ittee, and if you add on a certain inflationary factor I assume that that means that there has been a direct cutback in the staff or services being provided by this commi ttee. I'm just wonderinQ what services have been cut back. lt is purported to provide two functions, one is to make 772

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 recommendations to the Minister about changes in the formulas and needs and so on; the other is to provide an appeal procedure. Now which part has been cut back, the recommendation side or the appeal side? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DESJARDINS: ... let's say 19 72, 900 to 400 now, there is a gradual cutback on the number of appeals so the cost is less. No, ther e's no cutback on services and there's no cutback as far as the government, that we're pulling anything away from them. If there's less appeal the costs will be less also automatically. MR. AXWORTHY: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, if there has been then this decl ine in the absolute number of appeals I'm not sure how that translates in a cutback in expenditure. Could I assume that there are certain fixed costs that the board itself would have. What I was asking, has there been a cutback in the actual staff complement servi cing people or is there some per diem cost or per unit cost attached to each appeal that goes th rough, and how is that worked out? MR.

DESJARDINS: There is a limited staff, but most of the people on the board- there is a per diem when they're sitti ng, and mostly the travelling costs also, and if there's no appeal well then they don't move. MR. AXWORTHY: Wel l, Mr. Chai rman, I'd like to know has the Appeal Board itself established the practice of assigning any form of advocacy role, say through Legal Aid. People who are coming before that board who have appeals oftentimes are in a position where they are not able to fully represent themselves with all the kind of knowledge and information that would normally be required.

Does the board make a point of assigning any form of advocate, whether Legal Aid or through the department, to make sure that each of the appellants when they come forward to the board, both have a full recognition of what rights they have and are able to make sure that they get proper representation. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, and that of course, my honourable friend I'm sure wants to include those on municipal assistance also that appear before the board.

Now I don't think the board has the authorizy to assign anybody, but I'm sure they steer the people in that direction and make it quite clear that they're entitled to service, and apparently they'r e dealing with Legal Aid in many many in stances - most instances. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chai rman.

I would then just like to ask the Min ister, in terms of the recommendations that he has been receiving from the Advisory Comm ittee, can he indi cate whether they have undertaken any recent assessment of the costs of both necessities and also in a discretionary area that have been occasioned by those who are in receipt of social assistance, to determine how realistic the present funding form ulas are for social assistance for families who have need?

And I th ink in particular that because the costs in certain key areas, primarily food for one, are not subject to the full weight of the Anti-I nflation Program and ther efore have been risi ng at a rate that is not fully controllable, whether in fact the assistance given is on a par with what it was last year or in fact in real dollar terms, is it falling back? MR. DESJARDINS: Th is would be mostly to set up the price that the Provincial Government will accept or will legislate. This, I'm afraid, is the responsibility of the department. There might be some advice, but very little on that.

But what they do is compare - most of the appeals are in municipalities and so on - compare the municipality with the government and this is where they're quite concerned, and I'm quite concerned also. But it is someth ing that unfortunately we haven't been able to resolve yet, someth ing that is being considered by the Cabinet, should we have a minimum rate? There's no doubt, I'm not going to hid e that it caused some difficu lty.

Some municipalities are quite proud to say that they have nobody on welfare, but they make it so diffi cult for the people that they push them towards Winn ipeg which has a hig her rate and so on. Th is something that we're definitely looking at. it's a difficult thing because we don't do the administration. I don't think any legislation will be ready at this time, but this is someth ing that at least the depar tment wishes to make some suggestion to Cabinet and then we'll have to wait to see what happens.

We're concerned because some municipalities are very very low, and also the way they migh t call these people in front of the council and so on, and it makes it very difficult. They're not all working the same, and we have trouble with some of the municipalities, but apparently we haven't got the legis lation in to do too much about it at this time. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could perhaps clarify it a little bit more. He indicated that the department is now preparing proposals for Cabinet relating to changing the form ula for social assistance.

I wasn't sure whether he was saying, equalizing it between munic ipalities so that the differential between what's given at the municipal level and what's given from the provincial sources would be brought up to a common standard, or the legislation would in fact be directed towards changing the procedures of deliveri ng social assistance. I wasn't sure whether he was talking about a provincial take-over of responsibilities or regulations applying to munic ipalities. I wonder if he would mind clarifying that. MR. DESJARDINS: Wel l, I've probably talked too much already, because the Cabinet might not accept this.

But, no, we're looking at the standard, to have the same standard in a municip ality or a minimum that they would have to meet - not necessarily a maximum - if they want to pay more, fine' because I feel and the Advisory Comm ittee also that the minimum is way too low. Also another side effect that is not too good, I th ink, that they'r e forcing many of these people to Wi nnipeg, to move to Wi nnipeg where the standards are high er, and I don't think that's good to move all these people in the core of Wi nnipeg, that creates a lot of trouble for Win nipeg. 773

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 MR. AXWORTHY: We ll, perhaps finally, Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to raise the issue with the Minister in respect of th is, that people I've talked to in my own constituency who are on social assistance have found that the prim ary difficulty that they face is in those areas of incidentals which aren't covered by the strict food, clothing, rent formulas, but in fact come into the area providing for furniture, some upkeep of househ old goods, and that there seems to be a certain kind of restriction that seems to have been placed - and no one is too sure why - on the calculation of those kind of miscellaneous category of goods.

The other issue which is a much more complex one, Mr. Chai rman, and I almost hesitate to try to explain it because I'm not sure if I can fully get it out myself. But it really does relate to the situation MR. DESJARDINS: If the member would allow me. There is no doubt that this could be, if the member insists, that we can talk about this because we have an Advisory Commit tee.

I wonder if my honourable friend would be kind enough to wait until we get to 62, Social Security, wher e we go into detail and where the staff that can help me with this will be here, because now we're really talking about details and this is mostly administration so far, and this gentlemen, is of more concern. Thank you very much. MR. AXWORTHY: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to do that.

Maybe I could just leave tho ugh, for information, that the Minister might be prepared to bring at that time; the particular case where there was a change in the rules relating to those who might own a house and were providing some rental revenue properties for it but were also receiving social assistance - say an older person - and all of a sudden the regulations were really changed to almost force them out of the housing business. I think he knows the regulation I'm talking about because there have been some appeals on that.

I'm prepared to wait to discuss the details of that particular problem, but I th ink it is a fairly important one when it has affected some people, perhaps in an unjust way and I would like to get it clarified, but I am prepared to wait till the next item. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, to make sure that I understand my honourable friend, I would like to see if this is the point that he is concerned about. Righ t now we've put in a lien against property - we've put no liens at all, the Provi ncial Government - except if it is to increase the equity of the people. But the City of Winnip eg puts a lien on anything.

Now is this what you're talking about? No? This wouldn't affect your point at all? MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chai rman, just to clarify it. I wi 11 provide the Minister with some information, then maybe we can discuss it at the next item in 62. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(b} (1)- pass; (b) (2)-0ther Expenditures $57,400-pass; Resolution 58(c)-P olicy Commit tee - Review and Planning (1 ) Salaries $47,900. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I must say that there no doubt will be opportunities through the course of the study of t he Minister's Estimates to question him quite sharply with respect to increases in the budget, increases in the appropriation that we're being asked to vote, so at this juncture I want to say that it is only fair that I express to the Minister my general satisfaction at the fact that there is an area in terms of his departmental operation where obviously a restraint program has been in effect, and where he has succeeded in not only holding costs under control but reducing them.

I say that in all sincerity, I welcome it. We have taken the position for sometim e with respect to government budgeti ng generally, that there are obviously some areas which are extremely difficult to cut back. There are others in which there is no doubt fat and duplication and savings can be effected. So I want to advise the Minister that that does not go unnoticed on this side of the House and I commend him for having effected some savings in this area. At the same time, I would appreciate an explanation of the actual changes that lie beneath that reduction in expend iture on this particular appropriation.

The overall appropriation for the executive function is down by some $1 00,000 and the majority of it comes under the Policy Comm ittee Review and Planning aspect. There we're looking at almost the entire $1 00,000 reduced appropriation for the executive function in total. lt has been our view in the past that some of the exercises in Policy Commit tee Review and Planning have been unnecessary exercises, have been dir ectionless exercises and have contained a good deal of redundancy and fat. Has that reason commanded itself to the Minister and is that what underl ies the reduction in expend iture?

How many people would be involved in this particular reduction? From whom was he getting his review and planning advice and from whom is he getting it now? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I th ink we discussed that last year quite thor oughl y. The idea is still the same, that we would try to co-ordinate the planning; we probably work a little differently than other departments but when this question of restraint came in, it was felt that the best example the Minis ter could set was to start with his own group, policy and so on.

And why ther e is a difference is that we did not fill the position, we were just starting; the money was in there last year for that. We fil led some positions and now we intend again to carry on because of the difficult times and so on, but these will be phased out gradually as we get the proper people. The re's no great rush later on in the year so we can save some of the money that we have for this item. But we are not changing the policy set out by the Department of trying to co-ordinate the policy and the planning. As I say, this is not all the planning that is done there.

If I can give you examples -t here is always someth ing. There are certainly many crises in a week in this department and you must be able to move fast at times. For instance, there was the difficulty that we had with the Patient Air Transport program and so on. This policy comm ittee and co-ordinators are the one that co-ordinate and start looking at this im mediately and if we haven't got these people sometimes We it is quite difficult. are 774

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 also ve-ry aware of the restraints to program. We, as I say, wanted to demonstrate that we should start with the Minister so it could carry on th rough the department, and I th ink once you have seen the department that we have been fairly successful, especially in admini stration, cutting down quite a bit. I believe the member was here when I was talking about the staff. We are very proud of that also, that we have a very limited increase in staff and a reduction in contract staff also. So we felt that maybe we sho uld start by our department.

But we are not saying that the system is bad - we 're getting a nucleus of people that will co-ordinate that. We meet so we can get the ideas of all the department instead of working, and I am not commenting on any other thing that my colleagues will do, but what I like to do is discuss with many of our people, once a week usually.

We have a Policy Comm ittee, whic h is the Deputy Minister, the Co-ordinators, the different ADMs and the Chairman of the Commission; we get together and discuss thi ngs sometimes in a heated manner and so on to try and prepare the policies that we will recommend to the government and then also to see the problem area. They are regular members of this Policy Comm ittee but also anybody is invited if somebody down the line has someth ing that he wants to make sure is heard by the Min ister, the one that represents the government, these people are invited in.

We always have different people that come besides the regulars. I think it is very very important. I think it has served us well and I wouldn't want to change that system, it's the one I like to work with anyway. Eventually we might have the component but in the meantime we are not filling all these positions, we are trying to phase them in gradually. MR. SHERMAN: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, does this budgetary reduction and salary reduction reflect itself in the contract expense end of the department?

Because I notice, unless I misr ead the original information that the Minister gave us in his opening statement, and I may have misread it, in the increased staff-man positions whic h he referred to, the slight increase for this year over last year, there is no reference to any increase of staff of persons having to do with this particular responsibil ity. So do I conclude from that that there has been nobody added on a staff basis and there have been some cut-backs made in the contract area? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, there is no contracts in this area at all.

The staff man years that we have, that is another thing. I have talked about the increase in staff but we purposely try not to fill all the staff man years that we have. So last year we didn't spend all the money that you see here. This is what we asked for. But during the course of the year it was made clear to us by our Premier and the Cabinet that we were going through a rough period and even though the money was there at times we should not spend that money. So this was someth ing that we were phasing in, we were re-organizing the department and we did n't fill the position.

Now the staff man years that we have for that are six, last year the same, six this year, but they were not hir ed last year and they will not be hir ed, they will be phased in gradually. We di dn't spend that money last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhin eland. MR. BROWN: I'm not quite sure whether I understood the Minister right, whether ther e was not a reduction of staff over here, whether the money had not been spent and had been allocated last year. -(I nterjection)- So there actually was no reduction in staff then. lt is just that the money was not spent last year. MR.

DESJARDINS: I'll try to explain again. What we received last year was enough money and enough staff man years to have six people working. We did n't fill all the positions for the reasons I gave you and we don't intend to fill these positions, we will phase them in very gradually. You know, this is for the full year and it migh t be that we will fill one or two positions sometime in October or Decem ber if we have the proper people and depending on the direction that we want to go. We are in no hurry in filling these positions because we are trying to cut down as much as possible and this is an area that we can.

We feel that we might suffer a bit, but we can. lt is easier to cut there than on actual service and this is what we are doing. MR. BROWN: Does this Policy Comm ittee monitor and evaulate programs, and if it does, I wonder if the Minister could tell me whether there are any professionals, whether there are any doctors on this particular Policy Co mm ittee? MR. DESJARDINS: I am going to resist the temptation of referri ng my honourable friend and the members of the Comm ittee to Hansard because we certainly discussed this last year.

But to remind you I would like to say that, yes, the Policy Comm ittee of course are members of the senior staff, and as I just mentioned awhile ago, many people are called in. Now there is the Chie f Medical Consultant, Dr. Tavener, sits in at all these meetings. Then our Di rector, Dr. Fren ch, is there approximately 50 percent of the time or so, maybe that is a little too much, depending on what we have in front of us on the agenda. You know, we cover a lot of things.

Whenever there is any need, of course, there is many doctors; if we were talking about swine flu or someth ing then we might have ten doctors, depending on what is on the agenda. Dr. Eadie and Dr. Snell come in quite often, also our people are often called. MR. BIL TON: Mr. Chairman , I don't wish to labour this point, but on this particular item $1 58,000 was provided last year and as I understand the Minister, that was to take care of six personnel. He did n't hir e six. So this is really just a bookkeeping saving You did n't spend the money, you told us.

So it could have read $72,000 last year as well as this year. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, I explained why. I mean it wasn't an accident. During the course of last year we decided to cut down -I th ink you remember the exercise that we were directed to do - there are some areas like that where the money wasn't comm itted, especially in areas where it wouldn't bring any reduction in services, and especially in staff, and there were memos going through me to all staff. We made di fferent policie s in the department re travelling outside the province and so on. We tried to save as much as possible.

So it wasn't by accident, it was by design that the positions were not 775

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 filled. And I am saying that this year we are keeping the staff man years, we are not asking for the money because we are not going to fill this again. We might phase one or two positions -in. - (I nterjection)- That is possible. There is a possibili ty that we needed more money around Swan River and so on that we spent it there, I don't know. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c)(1 )-pass. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I though t there was another memb er who was tryi ng to get recognition.

Let me first say that I am not sure I agree with the kind of position taken by the Minister, that if you are going to cut back, th is is the area to cut in. l realize that the government benchers were faced with some stringent requests. But it strikes me that one of the critical problems that the Minister and his department now have to face is the whole re-transferri ng of financing from the Federal Government, which is going to have a very large impact upon all kinds of programs and policies of the department, what kinds of programs, how they are funded and who gets them.

So what I am really wonderi ng about is, who is doing that? That is a pretty substantial change in the way in which we are deliv eri ng social and health programs in the province. I would have some more confidence if we knew that we were taking this opportunity to do the kind of assessment that is necessary, particularly in ligh t of that changing of the tax points to determine which programs are useful and which are not.

Once we escape out from under that cost-shari ng arrangement, presumably it would give some freedom to set more directly the priorities in this province according to what the government thi nks the priorities are opposed to what the Federal Government is prepared to pay for on their cost-shari ng arrangement. lt would seem to me that now is the time to be doing that kind of analysis as to exactly which programs are having a signi ficant impact in improving areas and which are not. I would also say, Mr.

Chairman, that in addition to the issue oft he funding transfers and the kind of impl ications it has with the department, I th ink the general movement towards tryi ng to evolve social programs and health programs more into the preventative area, really requires again some pretty serious and pretty critical analysis of the present existing programs, which in many cases are support programs as opposed to preventative programs.

Again, I am wonderi ng who is doing that, that if in fact we are cutting back, closing down, holding the line, in this particular group, who from our past discussions I understood were supposed to be doing that kind of work. I am wondering who is doing it now or if we are not doing it at all? And if we are not doing it at all, it strikes me that we are probably ill-prepared then to face up to some of the decisions that are going to have to be made in the next twelve months or so about the kinds of the programs that we want to provide.

I would hope the Minister migh t be prepared to show where in fact that kind of planning and analysis that is presently going on. MR. DESJARDINS: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I must repeat that I made it quite clear we have not abandoned the policy, we still th ink that it is good. But, you know, you don't like to cut anywhere but you have got to start somewhere. I want to reassure my honourable friend many of the areas that he mentioned was not done by these people, this is just a nucleus of people that were co-ordinating and getting some of the information evaluated themselves.

On the large and very important question of negotiating with Ottawa, new legislation from Ottawa, this is done, and the next thing that you will see there is a resource division of the department, the staff would be in there with the senior people also. Every hospital in the province and personal care home is kept aware of what is going on and they must re-evaluate their position and priorize. So they do some of the work there.

The Manitoba Health Services Comm ission, of course, is very very interested, probably they are more involved than we are, not on the Social Services' side but certainly on i the Health side because it is mostly the hospital and personal care beds, Medicare and those programs that are quite expensive.

I must say that besides that we have been fortunate in getting people that have been giving us many many hours of thei r time, like people from the Department of Fi nance who are working with our staff and are quite up to date with what is going on in Ottawa - and of course our staff with the constant meetings they are having with senior staff in Ottawa. These people would assist no doubt in planning what to do, how to spend the money wisely, and I think that is what my honourable friend is saying. I don't think it was because we never had it in the department before.

I th ink that it is maybe more of a personal style. The next Minister might say this was lousy and throw it out, I don't know. I certainly am convinced that they can earn thei r keep. And the fact that we wanted the right kind of people also. We are looking for certain people that are very difficult to get. I wouldn't mind having, if at all possible, a young doctor interested in public health to do exactly what you were sa ying, preventative work and so on, but I haven't been able to find any and I am not going to fill these positions just to say, "W ell, okay, I've got these six positions.

Of course, the y weren't filled." When the Cabinet saw that the y would say, "W ell you lived without these positions for so long." You know the way it is. So I had to live a little longer without them. That is the situation. MR. AXWORTHV: Mr. Chairman, if that is the case I wonder if the Minister could be more explicit. What areas of programs explicitly is this group looking at? Are they looking at population changes, are they looking at different kinds of del ivery systems - what is it that they are in fact doing?

Can he give us the priorities of this particular division of his de partment in terms of research or analysis or assessment that they plan to undertake over the next year? MR. DESJARDINS: This is a bit difficult because we haven't got and we never had the position. We had maybe one or two positions. And what they have tried - at one time when we were looking at the complete re-organization of the department, I felt that the best way, whic h I had seen in other areas, 776

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 that we would have an Assistant Deputy Minister, and that was one of the positions that wasn't filled. They had one at one tim e. He would be in charge of all research for the whole department. We studied that quite carefully. The Policy Comm ittee had many meetings.

Then it became quite clear that we would miss out if we just tried to group everybody in the policy and take them out of the service, that to really know what is going on they must do a bit of evaluation and they must be some of the people charged with the programs to get the expertise that we're talking about, notjust dreamers in an ivory tower somewhere trying to set policies for the government. So this was the idea to bring these people who would work for the Policy Committee.

Some of them would be co-ordinators to im plement what is being done and then the research they might get in other areas, know where to get the research and so on, and six is not very much. I'm talking about a secretary and then I th ink there were three co ordinators and these people would know where to get the information and meet with different groups because there's always meetings going on in different groups that want to study someth ing and one person can't do it, or the Deputy Minister has got so much he can't do it.

All of a sudden as I say there is always crisis with PAT and when we have a comm ittee that is working now on the education ofthe nurses and so on. There's another comm ittee on prenatal care and these thi ngs go on and it is to get somebody to co-ordinate the information that we can get, know the information that they want to get, the planning, the evaluation and so on but I can't really tell you what they were doing because we never really got off the ground. We've got as I said, I th ink there was only one.

There were some people acting in that capacity for a period of time, I couldn't get the money to get the office of residential care, which I though t was very very important so we had one person who spent an awful of time in that. I th ink I can justify that, even all this amount of money there if we can set up this thing, because we had no hold on thi s business of all these facilities with the agencies giving the service but placing people somewhere and so on, the standards and so on, it was very bad.

We used the co ordinator to do an awful lot of that, if there was someth ing I couldn't get, I got it in another way. We finally got it thro ugh now and we have an office of residential care with a small staff of three. I hope I'm giving you information. it's quite difficult because the people weren't there. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, in

part it sounds like he's talking about the ghost squadron of the Department of Health and Social Development, that they're there but they're not there. And I'm not sure if they're there only kind of passing thr ough somehow but taking that aside that this is kind of ephemeral organization and it probably justifies the cutback that it has. Let me raise with the Minister -(I nterjection)- Well no cutback, , I know that's right there was money that wasn't spent is now being indicated that it was taken out of the budget. Right. Okay.

What I would want to ask then is that in this area of providing for the medium and long term planning of programs. When we look at Estimates in years past, one of the questions that was raised for example was whether the stated policy of the government going back three years in terms of the establish ment of a series of commun ity health clinics was going to be assessed and evaluated. I wonder if this has now been done, if some conclusions have been reached and has the government decided either to abandon the program, stop the program, to freeze the program or to expand the program and if so how?

Now again, I don't know if that comes under another item but I believe that that was one of the responsibilities that at this point the policy planning group was supposed to be looking at. I wonder if he can make some report as to what the conclusions of that assessment have been? MR. DESJARDINS: I will, Mr. Chai rman, but again not here. This is mostly the administration and we are going in these programs.

I th ink if you follow you have on page 29 Child and Fam ily Services, Public Health Nursing, Health and Education, Home Ecs, Continuing Care and you have these med ical and rehabil itative service with the proper people here. Dr. Tavener our Chie f Psychi atrist will be here. We have the Mental and Rehabilitative Services and so on, so I'm not trying to evade that but I would ask co-operation at this time. This is mostly the adminis tration part.

I certainly will make a statement on that because as I said last year we were weak on that, we made certain comm itments and I want to . at least give you a progressive report. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 58(c) (1 ) - pass, 58(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es $25,000- pass. We now proceed to the next resolution, Resolution 59 Resources Division (

a) Fi nancial Services (1 ) Salaries $849,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhin eland MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister can tell me who is in charge of this program at the present time since the Deputy has been transferred from this Division I understand. MR. DESJARDINS: A very capable person by the name of Peter Schmid t who is sitting her e to my left in front of me. MR. BROWN: Mr. Chai rman, I wonder if we could have an indic ation at this time whether there has been an increase in municipal assistance over the past years. Mr.

Chai rman, if I may, it says over here that it co-ordinates the operation of certain financial assistance programs such as municipal assistance. MR. DESJARDINS: That's righ t these people are strictly adminis trators and you will find that under page 32, I thi nk, at 5(c)

(3) Municipal Assistance. There is a special amount there. For your information, it's it's gone up $45,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: 59(a) (1 ) The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BIL TON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I migh t enquir e of the Minister. Does this item provide for the auditing of the hospital books? -(Int erjection)- That belongs to the ... This is simp ly for their internal operations right here. 777

Wednesday, March 16 , 19 77 MR. DESJARDINS: Maybe I could be a little more helpful. Maybe I could read and it migh t help my honourable friends. This provides for central accounting, payroll, budgetary, revenue and financial planning services-to the department. Also administers or cooFdi nates the operation of certain- financial assistance programs such as Municipal Assistance and the Social Allowance Health Services Program. I th ink you have it here, I didn't realize it, you also have it in the book. MR.

BIL TON: What I'm thinking of, if I may just take it a step further, I'm thinking of the budgets that come down from the hospitals which you people examine, it's not under this item. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(a) (1 )-pass; (a)

(2) Other Expenditures $237,800-pass; 59(

b) External Agencies and Office of Residential Care (1 ) Salaries, $307,100. The Honourable Member for Rhine land. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if my honourable friend would permit me, I migh t answer some of these questions. There is someth ing new as I said, the residentia l care, and I'd like to make the following statement. We now come to an appropriation in my department that perhaps is not sign ificant in relative dollar amounts compared to other appropriations but I feel it deserves a few remarks.

A sign ificant number of programs funded by the Health and Social Development are carried out by private agencies which are external to departmental operations. This is true of virtually every area including Mental Health, Mental Retardation, Child Welfare, Home Care, Day Care and a host of others. Generally speaking these are two types of services which are offered by agencies and service providers funded by the department.

Fi rstly, ther e are those agencies that provide direct personal services to clients such as the Society for Cripple d Childr en and Adults, The Canadian Arthritis and Rheu matism Society, The Victorian Order of Nurses and countless others. Secondly, there are those agencies that supply an element of personal care but are primaril y in place to provide 24 hours a day living accommodation.

In this category there is both agencies and individuals that operate child welfare institutions and group homes, mental retardation community residences, halfway houses in the alcohol and correction systems and special interest housing such as the Whe elchair Housing Centre. In the past the department has had a single office as a contact point with all external agencies.

The function of this office has been to conduct budget services, establish budgets and rates and to work with the various program personnel in the department in the development of criteria and standards on which budget and rate assessments can be based. lt is the departme nt's intention going into 19 77- 78 to split this function into two components. One component will be the admini strative centre to liaise and conduct budget services with those agencies which provide dir ect services to clie ntele.

Another component which we have called - and this is the new one now - the Office of Residential Care, will be the focal point for dealing with those agencies providing 24 hour a day residential care with the empha sis on deins titutionalization, and the development of Community Residential Faci lities and Program ming. We find an increasing demand of a special nature being placed on the department.

In all program areas with central co-ordinating through the Office of Residential Care we will be moving vigorously on (1 ) Fir e, Public Health and Building Safety Standards on which we've been lax up to now. (2) on the development of inspection programs related to those physical standards, (3) on an application and licensing process, (4) on the development of program standards and (5) on the establish ment of budgets and rates which accurately reflect the program standards.

Righ t now they've put on their own rates and it migh t be that some people offer better service with less money, and provide levels of care and treatment constant with the needs of the clientele. Mr. Chairman, we have seen a vast increase in the residential living concept.

In the past five years we have witnessed the development of some 100 group homes in child welfare, 25 commu nity residences in mental retardation, and a substantial discharge of patients from mental hospitals to group living situations. lt is past due that we recognize this community residential phenomenon and respond with an appropriate central mechanism to ensure a satisfactory level of physical and program standards and a well reviewed level of funding consistent with the expected standards.

I might say that this office could also help in some of the problems, to answer some of the problems that my honourable friend from Fort Rouge has suggested, maybe helping the people in getting the proper accommodation and so on. lt is also my intention to work closely with the City of Wi nnipeg Committee on the Environment and to co-ordinate with them the necessary inspection services and licensing procedures' not only for those facilities which are funded by my department but also for those facili ties designated as guest homes which provide accommodation and service to self-pay elderly persons.

Again my honourable friend from Fort Rouge asked a question of me a few weeks ago that caught me by surprise about this home care.

Actually if this was well monitored and if there were proper standards and so on, these people in the guest house are being charged fort h is kind of service and they should get it but it is true that they weren't getting it so, we're looking at the emergency now until we can straighten th is thing out. _ lt is for all of those reasons that our Office of Residential Care will be established as distinct and separate from our external agency component which is more interested with the budget and so on, and it will continue to deal with those external agencies which provide dir ect services. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. 778

Wednesday, March 16 , 19 77 MR. AXWORTHY: I fi rst would say that I think the introduction of the Office of Residential Care is long overdue or someth ing similar to it because I think there have been a number of pretty serious problems related to the divisio n of services through private care homes. I know that one grouping of problems that has come to my attention as part of the larger context of the Child Care Programs, is in the private treatment centres for juveniles who are detained either for juvenile delinquency reasons or thr ough the CAS and we still sadly lack many of the proper range of options.

What does concern me is that there are a number of private treatment homes which acquire a $50.00 per diem for each child. Many of the owners have five or six of these homes and absolutely no services are provided. lt's 50 bucks found money. They may provide a bed and some meals but it's 50 bucks found money and several of them are in fact paying off - they've acquired some pretty expensive property and they are using federal provincial funds to pay these homes off. I don't know what they do with them then I suppose they sell them and make apartment blocks out of them. But the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairm an, that in the provision of a range of options for chil dren who come under the purview of the provincial governm ent eith er thr ough the route of the courts or the delinq uency side or become wards of the child welfare side. Fir st we have a lack of proper treatment facilities and secondly many of the private facil ities that we do provide have no guideline s in terms of what services they are expected to provide. They have very little guideli nes in the way of inspection or assessment of what is being provided.

I would suggest it is not only a matter of making the kind of critical inspection that is needed in these areas it is also to look at what are the holes are that have to be fil led in supplying these kinds of programs. To give you one example, Mr.

Chai rman, in many cases because these homes themselv es don't have proper treatment facilities for childr en who have some disturbances the chi ldren, in fact must stay in the Youth Treatment Centre or in one of the institutional homes even though sometimes they are still collecting the per diem off the provincial government. , although I could probably document I'm sure the Minister has all the documentation he needs, to indic ate that many of these private centres are in fact collection a per diem when in fact a child is in one of the provincia l institutional homes.

So that fact is it's a double entry on the budget book. So I think from an accounting point of view it hasn't made much sense. I am also much more concerned I think about the lack of options in these homes, and when it comes time for the courts or the probation officer or the child welfare worker to find a place to put the child there is simple no place to go.

I can recite in the last three or four weeks I have had calls from parents in my own riding saying, "My chilp has been picked up, they're at the Youth Treatment Centre, there is no place to put them ." As a result that whole Youth Treatment Centre is being used as sort of a depository, not as a tempor ary holding place, but in fact had childr en sitting in ther e for sometimes four, five, six months simply because there is no place in which they can go where the worker will be satisfied that they'll get proper treatment.

So one of the issues I'd really like to raise, perhaps as a prior ity for when and if this Office of Residential Care gets into business, is to begin looking at what is happening in these homes, what kind of treatment is available, whether we're getting proper expenditure for our money and exactly what the options migh t be. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(b) (1) - pass' 59(b}

(2) Other Expenditures $22,500- pass. Resolution 59(

c) Operational Support Services (1 ) Salaries $705,000- pass. Other Expenditur es (2) $1 22,700. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Before we leave the Operational Support Services, I wonder if the Minister could explain what is in fact happening with the Drug Standards and Therapeutics Commit tee in terms of setting up the operation of that Comm ittee, what it has in fact been doing for the past year. This, I assume, is the group that looks after the establishm ent of the Drug Reg istry ..

I realize it is still active but I'd like to know exactly what has been performed in terms of the listing of drugs and what kind of activities they have been engaged in. MR. DESJARDINS: You actually wanted to know if there were any new dr ugs that were ... gosh, I haven't got this here. When this is done, it is done by an Order-in-C ouncil and I will try to get that. I know that they are constantly reviewi ng this and when they are ready, there is an Order-in-Co uncil. If this is to be changed, it is done by an Order-in-C ouncil. -(I nterjection)-You are not talking about Pharm acare? No.

Wel l, that's what we do, we have to go through an Order-in-C ouncil. Do you want me to try to get you what was done dur ing the year, Order -in-Council and so on, a copy of that? MR. AXWORTHY: The other activity, Mr. Chairman, in this particular

section of the department that intrigues me is the responsibil ity they have for renegotiating fees and services with p�ofessional associations. That comes under this department and I would wonder whether the Mm1ster could indic ate whether there in fact has been any sign ificant change in standards relating to the professional public health nurses, doctors that may or may not be employed and other forms of professional groups that are involved in this department. MR. DESJARDINS: These contracts are about due and they are being negotiated now. I don't think there are any new ones.

There are some that are through the Manitoba Government Emp loyees of course and others. For instance, we are negotiating with the doctors_ that are employed �Y the department at this time. 1 migh t say, if you remember tha t last year I exp! amed that we were gomg �o work with management commi ttee on that. We have s<;>mebody t�at _ 1s from management that IS assigned to work with our department, the Health Serv1ces Comm1s s1on and the department, Mr. Larry Giffin. . . . 1 h" h ·M R. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chai rman, I wonder if the Mims ter could md1cate exact y w 1c 779

Wednesday, March 16, 1977 professional groups does he have in his department. Is it just the doctors or what other kinds of professional associations are included under this handle. MR. DESJARDINS: I have other professional associations - the people that are emp loyed by the department, you are talking about. I th ink that is the only one, the doctors; the other s are all under the Government Employees. Now we might discuss with the pharmacists and with the optometrists and so on tor services tor our social welfare people, tor rates. They do that also. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es - pass. The hour being 4:30 .... MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I note your presence in the Assembly and I want to suggest to you, Sir, that discussions have taken place with the members of the Assembly as to the advisability of continuing tor today the Comm ittee of Supply. lt seems that we have unanimous consent accordingl y and I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that we agree to that tor today. The honourable mem bers of the Liberal Party have agreed, as has the opposition.

Of course the House Leader of the Opposition will speak for the Official Opposition as I am tor the govern ment and it appears that this agreement is tor today and not to be construed as establishing a precedent. lt could happen again but, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that leave be given to suspend the rules of the private mem bers' hour tor today in order that the Comm ittees of Supply may continue. (Agreed) MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Comm ittee will proceed. Resolution 59 (

d) on Page 28, Program Review,

(1) Salaries, $1 38,900. The Honourable Member tor Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chai rman, the group responsible tor Program Review was, as I understand it, establishe d at the end of 19 75 with in this particular division to undertake the central analysis, research and evaluative functions of the department. That is a lofty objective and no doubt a necessary one and in terms of the overall budget we are not looking at a major appropriation here, $1 86,700 representing an increase of only some $8,000 over last year.

I suppose you can't be expected to carry on Program Review in a department of this size and scope or in a division of this size and scope without spending a few tens of thousands of dollars. Wo uld the Minister advise the Comm ittee who is in this group, how many people are in it, and whether this is a fulltime function for the members of the gr oup of whether they double in brass in various other capacities. MR. DESJARDINS: There is no increase or decrease. They are still nine and that is their fulltime responsibili ty.

Now they double in this case, that they migh t be called in to do a certain work, whic h I th ink is in line with their duties and their experience and expertise and so on. For instance as I said earlier, the PAT Program whic h normally might have been done by somebody in the policy committee, the staff of the Policy Commi ttee, but this was done by the dir ector here, it was a difficult situation, who hel ped me organize and get recommend ations for the mem bers of the Comm ittee and who acted as the liaison for the government on this and is prepari ng the report now that I should have any time.

He is also now doing the same thing, helping me set up an advisory commit tee on family planning and so on, so you know this is within the scope but it is someth ing that I will ask him to do dir ectly, to come and help because of the lack in that policy. If we had the co-ordinators and people that could do it at this stage - some of these thi ngs still have to be done and we will get them whenever we can in the department but they would be the type of people that probably would want to work a policy paper or a Cabinet paper in any instance in areas such as I mentioned. MR.

SHERMAN: How do they specifically function, Mr. Chairman? Do they initiate programs and policies or do they simply review initiatives undertaken by the Minister and his deputy and his top staff? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, one thing when I came into this department that I did want to see is some people in the department on their own deciding that this is a policy and fire up someth ing that then becomes policy that will be pushed through the same kind of staff, maybe at HE SP and so on, that would be policy.

Now the procedure is this: If I get any directive, first of all, number one, from the Cabinet to develop a certain program, fine. They are instructed, this is brought back, we discuss it and they proceed with it. Secondly if it is someth ing that is origina ted by the Mini ster or the policy committee and so on, a dir ective goes down, fine. They are usually in on the talk. Now that doesn't mean that we don't want any ideas of people that are experienced.

But before preparing a paper, spending hours and hours developing something that migh t be contrary to government policy and to make sure that the policies are made by people that were elected to do so, if they have any ideas, we welcome their ideas. lt is sent to the chairman of the policy commit tee who puts it on the agenda and this person will come in before it is all developed and spending hours and hours of tim e. So then if he gets the green light then there is a committee and I never want these people to work alone.

I have seen through experience that some people are all full of ideas but they might not realize and they migh t push this thing and they migh t not realize what it will cost us tomorrow, next year and the year after, so there is always somebody on Resources with them. And also we want to make sure that if there is any chance at all that are cost sh ares on that, we have to have experts on that to work with them. This is the way they work.

There is no tir ing up in an ivory tower of some schemes that look very good on paper or I hope, maybe they are still pulling the wool over my eyes, that there is not going to be end runs and so on. l don't think there is too many of them becausewe areq uite a few that look at that. I th ink this is the orderly way of doi ng it. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chair man, could the Min ister tell us: How does one get to be a member of the Program Review group?

Are people hir ed because they had a particular expertise in terms of analysis and assessment of one position as against another or because they wanted to come in and initiate ideas and programs or did they come up through the ranks of the department? 780

Wednesday, March 16 , 19 77 MR. DESJARDINS: Some of these people have been there over ten years and they probably will be there for another ten to fifteen years. They are people that would have to meet what is requested of them . They are people that would have the expertise in that. Now it's like everything else. I would imagine that if there is a bulletin and a job is open, that they can apply. Wha t their motive is, if it is just to get a fair salary or if it is somebody that is really concerned to push certain programs, I don't know but I th ink that this is safeguard.

We hope that ther e are people with ambition that are not just looking at a good job with security and so on, but I don't know what motivates all these people. I know that I am very satisfied . I don't know them all by name but the work that comes from ther e is satisfactory. They are turning out the material pretty fast. I know that there are not that many, like you say, for a large department and they work only in certain areas. You will find, as I said earlier, other people that might be planning and coming in with ideas in different departments also.

But these people will assess and they migh t have certain thi ngs referred to them wher e they wi ll give their evaluation and so on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(d) (1 ). The Honourable Mem ber for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chai rman, can the Minister indic ate whic h programs were reviewed last year? He indic ated that some of the members of the commit tee were there for ten years, so we perhaps have some kind of reports, which programs were reviewed, and can the Minister indicate: Does he get such reports and what do they usually look at? What kind of programs and can he give us some indication? MR.

DESJARDINS: There is no way that I can give you the list. Any of the programs that we will discuss later on, they have been involved with. And as I say, I don't know what they prepare. lf there is someth ing li ke this, they are usually called when that is going to be on the agenda. Either they have pushed someth ing up or there was a directive from the Cabinet or the department or the pol icy commit tee. They are invited. They get the expertise if they need help in the resource division and so on, they get it and they prepare a paper for the policy committee to start with, our own internal policy commit tee.

This is usually done in a way not to duplicate things, in a way that it is ready to go to either HE SP whic h is a subcomm ittee of Cabinet dealing with that or management. Most of the time it is HE SP. There are all kinds of thi ngs and as I said, some of them work on the PAT program, on the policy, which is someth ing that we felt uncomfortable with . lt wasn't our responsibility. Our responsibility was to fund it but we had nothing to say, not at all, it was after the fact.

We were getting the bills and we didn't like that too much. lt was discussed in Cabinet and it was agreed that we would have a comm ittee - the comm ittee is not all mem bers of the staff. There was only one mem ber of the staff on that but they co-ordinated that and as I say they are preparing an internal report now that I would hope that we will base ourself on to send up a recommendation to Cabinet. So name it, they have done it.

The y have done on all these programs, on mental health , especially when we developed policy for the government on mental health, what my honourable friend was talking about, what we will discuss later on in the programs. lt could be on anything, on day care, on home care, on anything, but they work with the people that are deliveri ng those particular programs also. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Chai rman, it would appear that it is more on a policy than on sort of reviewing the program in itself, say with a complete review of the home care program and recommend the deficiencies in it and what is requir ed and how many people require home care that are not able to get it because of not sufficient staff and so on, or is it more on a policy, because listening to the Min ister I am confused because he is saying it is more on policy and they are reviewing all the programs, he says. We ll surely in-one year it would be pretty difficult to do a complete review in the Estimates. MR.

DESJARDINS: There is no need to be confused because of course where do you think the policy comes from? The policy comes after review. The policy might be to keep on going with the program the way it is or change it or modify it, and new programs. But they do exactly what my honourable friend stated, they work with these people, evaluate it and study it and then make their recommen dation which migh t after that be instrumental in having different polic ies or modifying the policies. For instance I will give you a good example. We have had this trouble in Selkirk.

I am not saying they exactly work on this one but that would be an example where we have had difficulty and one of the reasons for that, there has been concern with the staff and so on that we were going, and we make mistakes, we were going in a policy of trying to phase everybody out of these institutions which was fine. We still have the same policy, although we recognize now that there will always be need for some institutions and also the fact is that we were going too fast and we didn't have the facilities ready to accept these people.

So what was going on that the staff was quite concerned, some of them were being transferred to the com munity after years and years in the hospital. The y were concerned , they didn't know, they were worried about their security also and also that resulted in many of these people clutteri ng up the acute psychiatric beds in the general hospitals and so on. So now that has been modified and these people would work on some of these thi ngs which would result in either just abandoning a policy, changing and saying we were wrong, or modifyi ng it or saying, "W ell, fine, but we are going to slow down a bit.

On paper that looked good but it is not going to work until you have the policies and so on." MR. PATRICK: Wo uld they do such work, Mr. Chai rman, as monitori ng the length of stay of certain patients in hospitals, the long-term or shor t-term patient, the length of days and so on? - (l nterjecti on)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(d) (1). The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, I rise only on a point of order and I hesitate to do so, but I th ink it is necessary if the records are going to remain in proper order. The Minister has the habit of 781

Wednesday, March 16 , 19 77 replying from his seat without the microphone being on and when he does that, then his comments which we would wish to record for posterity are not being recorded and I would hope that the Min ister would wait until the question has been asked and be given an opportunity to reply so that it can be recorded. MR. CHAIAN: The point is well taken. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chai rman, I still want to pursue the same area. Who would do, say; the research to find out how many people are awaiting admission for nursing care homes?

Wo uld this be an area or do they strictly review the program, or would this be the team? MR. DESJARDINS: The office of Continuing Care would do that. They monitor that every day, they would have proper records on that. -(I nterjection)- No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 59(d) (1) - pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditur es $47,800-pass. Resolution 59(

e) Personnel Management Services:

(1) Salaries $255,100. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, this would be the fi rst appropriation that we have come to in these Estimates on whic h I must confess to a temptation to clash with the Minister.

This is an area which I suggest leaves itself open to "em pire building." There are many areas of government admini stration, many areas in terms of the government's stewardship - any government's stewardship - of the affairs of the province or the community, which are vulnerable to "em pire building." That's a fact of lif e, but in a period of restraint and rational management, it is these areas that we must attempt to identify and use as a base if we can for bringing public expenditur es into line.

I fear that this particular field is one that lends itself to that kind of undisciplined growth and possible inefficiency measured in terms of some of the other services which are very necessary in the Department of Health and Social Development. I note, in reading the Annual Report for the Department, that in the field of personnel management services, for example, we have a staff development office which is involved in such activities as the following. I just want to note these for the record for one minute, Mr.

Chai rman, without prolonging the work of the com mittee: Partici pation in inter-departmental work groups which are developing program guideli nes for organizational development, management by objectives, communi cations, first-line and middle management developme nt, cleric al, secretarial training, employee orientation, recruitment and selection, classification and the public administration pilot program. 2.

Partici pation in the presentation of organization behaviour and change seminar s in concert with Management Commi ttee and external consultants for senior managers from all different departments in the Civil Service. 3. Designin g and conducting sem inars for departmental staff in such learning areas as developing interpersonal communic ation skil ls, how to work with groups in the commun ity, conducting effective meetings, etc. 4. Development of a management development program for senior departmental management. And the list goes on and on, Mr. Chairman.

I put it to the Minister that what we are talking about here is a staff training and upgrading program and th at's very necessary and very valuable in almost every activity where resources and revenues and expend itures are involved. But I also put it to him, you could go in the private sector and find enterprises and corporations employing just as many and more personnel as the Minister has under his supervision in this department, who can operate a staff training program for a heck of a lot less than a thir d-of-a-mi llion dollars a year. I revert to my original remarks, Mr .

Chairman, that if there are some areas where we can zero in on ineffi.ciency and undisc!plined growth and ','empi re buil.ding," I th ink it is our responsibil ity to try to zero m on them and until persuaded otherw1se, off a rev1ew of what the branch and what the office is c:harged with doing and in compari ng it in my own mind to what is done in the private sector in these fields and the amount of money that is requir ed to do it quite efficiently in the private sector, I have to suggest to the Minister that a thi rd-of-a-million dollars is too much for what in effect seems to be an exercise in self-justification. ! recognize that people have to justify themselves.

They sometimes have to justify themselves by �ividing like amoebas and adding make-work projects that, you know, they attempt to portray as bemg vital and necessary, but it's up to the Minister and the Opposition to watchdog that kind of activity and I don't like what I see right here. MR. DESJARDSIN: Mr. Chairman, if we're going to clash it's going to be on something else because this is not something that I invented although I will certainly defend it. Now, we have over 4,000 people. I know that nobody else in Manitoba has that kind of staff or people employed.

And if 15 people for 4,000, that's what we have, is empir e building, God we're not going to have much of an empir e with that. They do education, but that's only part of it. They recruit and that's difficult. We have had an awful time. We're tryi ng to recruit, for instance, psychiatrists for Brandon and Selkirk and you know how much trouble we have had with that. They interview, I don't interfere with selection, the hir ing of people and so on. They prepare that. There are some people that have problems on the staff, they are trying to keep them happy.

There's the education trying to get them to upgrade themselves. I can't see any waste in there at all and I can't see that this is empir e building. I don't know if my honourable friend realized that we are talking only about 15 people here and there hasn't been an increase ther e - has there been an increase in the last two years? There has been no increase in there but there is increase in staff all the time. That group of 15 has been there for a long time and I can tell you thatthey are overworked, they are working quite hard .

I disagree, not violently because this is not the service area, but I th ink it's needed. I th ink that the 782

Wednesday, March 16 , 19 77 personnel for, as I say, over 4,200 people, a staff of 15 to do all that is not in excess. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chai rman, I appreciate the Min ister's information that it's 15 people who are involved . That was going to be my next question. If it's 15 , that's not a great number of people, I concede that, but I th ink that it might possibly be seven people or eigh t people if there weren't so many esoteric exercises assigned to them as are illustrated in the Annual Report of the department, a portion of which I just read out a few moments ago.

Going beyond that, let me ask the Minister this, if you look over the entire Resources Division, and here I say again, I think in total the Minister has exercised restraint. I don't find any fault with the minimal increase in the overall appropriation being asked for the Resources Division in total, except that if we are go ing to find savings somewhere, we've got to find them in these areas that are not dir ectly related to the delivery of service to the people of Manitoba who need health and soc ial development services delivered to them.

So that perhaps holdin g the line is not quite as successful an exercise as is required at the present time. Perhaps we should be doing a little better than holding the line, we should be reducing the appropriations being voted in this area.

Nonetheless, I don't quarrel with his "hold the line" approach but if you look at the overall breakdown of individ ual branch functions and services in the Resources Division, it seems to me that a number of those services could be co-ordinated, a number of those functions could be co-ordinated and there could be more value, more productivity obtained out of individual functions in the department and persons performing those functions, thr ough a kind of a branch and service co-ordination effort.

Now, that may not be possible but my initial examination of the department, not only in this session but in others previous, has always left me with the feeling that services such as Program Review and Personnel Management and possibly even Operational Support, are services that could be co-ordinated a lot more closely than they are and could ther efore require a smaller kind of establishment in terms of staff man hours and manpower generally.

The Minister may say that those services are so different that co-ordination among them is impossible, but I feel that there could be some efforts towards co-ordination made and I would like the Minister's opinion on that. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I am at a loss to understand the concern of my honourable friend who understands how business works, I wish if he is going to read from the Report, that he should read the first paragraph and I th ink that is mor e appropriate.

The first paragraph, and I'll read it: "The Personnel Management Services Branch provides compr ehensive services to the Ministries of Health and Social Development and Corrective and Rehabilitative Services"' that's the two, "in areas of staff recruitment and selection," and that's the main function, "and also position classification and evaluation, employee relations and staff training and developme nt." For instance, in a large department like that, you have somebody, either it's a different personality of a Minis ter or Deputy Minister or the priorities change and you have somebody that all of a sudden is not doing very much in a certain position.

Wel l, we try, instead of just placing this fellow and putting him on a shelf or red-cirling it and say, "Okay, you're stuck with him ," we try to retrain these people and give them someth ing worthwhile to do and I th ink that is very important. That co-ordination that my honourable friend is talking about, that is done by these people. And then there's the education part of it. You start a policy like the next th ing that we'll have, Com munity Operation Division, where you work as a team and so on, "Yell, they bri�g t

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 20.pdf
Language	en
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