'!OL. 1 ?RELD1!NARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE ?ER!OD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. TUESDAY, NOVE.I.!BER 13, 1979 NO. 28

November 13,1979 The HousP. met at 3:00 ? .H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. SPEAKER: Belle Isle. MR. ROEER'!'S: ORJ\L Tape No. 1015 AH-1 Order,please! QUESTIONS The hen. member for the Strait of Mr. Speaker, a question for, the President of the Treasury Beare.",, the senior financial minister,! think it is !air to say,in the House because ~~e Minister of Finance is away from the Province on a matter of business.

The President of the Treasury Board, I am sure, is familiar wiL; Premier Davis' statement,or Prime Minister Davis' statement,if you wish, in Ottawa yesterday L~at the increase in the interest rate by the r~vernment of Canada was going to cost the province of Ontario forty-four ~~cusand jobs in ~;e next year. I wonder if the minister could tell us the results of his studies or the government's studies in the Province as to how many jobs we can expect to lese in newfoundland and Labrador because of the rise in the interest rates? ~R. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

WINDSOR: Actually,! ~~ no~ aware of Premier navis' statement. I have been travelling all weekend on government business. However, certainly I can echo his concerns, We are concerned as well. The interest rate as it now stands is obviously a deterrent to housing and it will be all across Canada, It is something that we are as concerned about as are ether ministers of housing right across eanada. Many of us have inCeed expressed, either in writing or verbally, ~o Mr.

MacKay1 who is the federal minister responsible for housing, our concerns in ~;is regard. and as well in many other policies ~~at are now being adopted ty t~e federal govern~~nt. Ma~y housing p=ograrnmes that were in place from ~~e 2548

Hove!l'ber 13,1979 Tape No. 1015 AH-2 MR. N .WINDSOR: federal government previously have been deleted. The federal government is still in ~~e proeess of re-examining their whole role in housing. There is in fact a proposal that housing ministers from across Canada meet with Mr. 1-!acKay in the near future, either next month or early in the New Year. At that point in time undoubtedly ~~e question of interest rates will be one of the top issues that we will be discussing. ~R. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIPID .... "l: (Sitt'lns) of Belle Isle. MR. ROBEP.TS: A supplementary. The hen. merrber for ~~e Strait Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the minister's answer and I appreciate his willingness ~o give information, but he either misunderstood my question or did not want to answer, because he did not. I asked the minister, not in his capacity as the ~inister responsible for housing matters, but as the senior financial minister of the government present in the House today, and I want to know the results of the studies of the government of this Province, I want to know ho~ many jobs we will forfeit in this P~ovince this year, this coming year, because of the rise in ~~e interest rates by the government at Ottawa?

I can understand ~;e minister did not have a chance to see Hr. Davis' statement. I could send him a copy which I brought in "#hen I carne in on the airplane last night of yesterday's Glebe and Hail which I am prepared to regard as being reasonably accurate. It is a good newspaper. So could ~;e minister tell us how many jobs we will be short? There was 44,000 in Cntario. It is about 3, 500 in ~lewfoundland to use comparison, ;;ut I de not want 2549

November 13, 1979 Tape 1016 EC - 1 MR. ROBE.Rl'S: to do that. I want the minister to tell me the results of the studies, please. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Affairs and Housing. The han. the Minister of !1.unicipal M.R. tL WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would appreciate receiving a copy of that. ! came in on the aircraft around 12:30 P.M. or something like th.at, that is why I have not had a chance to see any of the media in the past twenty-four or forty-eight hours, in fact. As the result of studies, Mr.

Speaker, we have ongoing programmes,and I run answering this in both capacities because it relates primarily to housing as does the hen. member's question even though he is tal.king about the fi.nancial aspects as it relates to the interest rate. Ha.rever, the answer to t.l-tat may well be in comparing not only the interest rate but other housing policies as well as to how, in fact, we can battle this interest rate problem, It is indeed a problem.

We will be looking at it from a financial point of view, but I think we have to look at it as well from a housing point of view to see whether or not our housing policies and housing programmes are meeting the needs, or whether or not <:here is, in fact, a housing programme that can offset this sort of t:h.ing.

It is not something that can be done overnight:; it is a matter of an exhaustive study on all of our housing programmes t:o see how effect:ive ~1-tey may be in view of this int:erest situation, to see if programmes that we now have in place will still be effective, or whe~~er or not the effective interest will negate, indeed, the programmes ~~at we do have in place. So it is an ongoing thing.

We are presently doing an exhaustive critical examination of all of cur housing programmes and1 certainly, we will be in a position in the not too distant future to say what effect, hopefully, this housing rate will have on us. MR. PDBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. M.R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. ~~e member fer the Strait of Belle Isle. 2550

November 13, 19i9 Tape 1016 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS : I apprecia~e the minister's concern with housing - and it is important - but with all respec~, Mr. Speaker, the high interest rates while they are having n crippling effect an the housing construc~ion, and the sale and resale market,go far beyond that. The minister, I know, will agree. AN HCN, MEMBER: He misunderst~od the question. MR. ROBERTS: No, I do not think the minister misunderstood, Mr. Speaker. He is too bright to misunderstand a question. Can the minister tell us point-blank, Has the government. made any studies at all?

Do they have any idea of what the effect will be on the employment situation in this Province this Winter of the high interest rates in Ottawa? Do they have any idea? Have they made any studies? If so 1 what? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Affairs and Housing. MR. N, WINDSOR: The hen. the Minister of Municipal Mr. Speaker, as it relates, I realize that I was ~alking more on housing because I am looking at the housing interest rate, the mortgage in~erest rate. Interest rates generally, obviously affect the whole economy in the Province.

It is a matter, unfortunately, that is more in the hands of the federal goverrunent than the provincial government; nevertheless, the effects of the high interest rates are a matter of concern for us. It is more in the realm of the Minister of Finance's (Dr. J. Collins } department and, in fac':, I know that the Department of Finance are lootilW at this. As for definitive answers, I am afraid I cannot give them, but bopefullv ~~e Minister of Finance will be able to give some answers on his return. 2551

:1cvernber 13, 1979 i1.t:t. D. JA.'1IESON: ~1R. SPEAKER: :1R. D. JA!UESON: Tape No. 1017 SD - 1 The han. Leader of the Opposition. Supplementary to - Or a new question. - or a new question, as you cr~ose, :tr. Speaker, to the !-1inister of ,'1anpower (Hr. J. Dinn) • He has had a number of discussions and a number of talks with the federal officials. Can t..'te minister tell th.e House 1 in bread terms even, what he anticipates the rate of unemployment is likely 1:0 be in the Province in the coming Winter?

Does he subscribe to the widespread view that we are going to have very high levels of unemployment,for the reasons which my colleague from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts) and ott~rs have mentioned? And if such is the case, are there any short-term measures ~~at he can anticipate,either provincial or federal, that may service to ease what appears to be at least a pending high level of unemployment? :m. SPEAKER: The han. :-tinister of Labour and Manpower. ;.tR. J. DINH ~ Yes 1 ~r.

Speaker, my depar"t..-nen t has been involved over the past several mcn~~s with assessing the unemployment rate in Newfoundland.

The han. member would be quite happy to note that since Harch of this year our unemployment rate has gone down continually until this mantil when it rose by .3 per cent 1 which is significant to us. ~e anticipate !rom a very superficial analysis of ~~e employment picture in Newfoundland over t.he ne:x:t couple of months that the unemployment rate '"'ill raise about .2 to 2.5 per cent 1 which is about equivalent to what the rate rose over the pas~ 3everal years. aut we can say that the statis~ics that we are using are sc~ewhat inaccurate but if we can use t."1at as a guideline, then t:.."l.e 1976 unemployment rate, 'Nhich is the latest time ::..~at we have Y1e figures for the complete year that are !airly accurate - in other words, I could not use seventy-five and compare this year because these statistics have changed and th.e data ~~a~ we are using changed in 1976.

Sut: frcrn 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979 we look at: the statistics and they ?eaked in 1978 and have teen going down conti~ually month by ~on~~ and are at: about the 1976 un~~ploy~en~ :igures,anci we anticipate t.!:>at they will go down further again nex': year with the progra~es 2552

Novett.ber 13 1 1979 Tape No. 1017 SD - 2 !1R. J. DINN: that each individual department of govern:nent is proposing. And also with the federal involvement in youth employment and programmes ~~at we have basically coming on stream, a provincial co-operation if you will, into ~~e e~ployment sector and we i1ope to have something more definit-ive to be able to say when the federal Budget is announced.! have agreed with ~~e federal minister ~~at I would not let the cat out of the bag, as it were, they do have sooe programmes that will fit into the Newfoundland scene and we hope that when they are announced,along with the programmes that my colleagues 2553

~:ove>.lber 13, 1979 Tape no. 1018 DW - 1 :-m. J. nnm: have been working on for the past several months, we should have a five year prograr::me in ?lace for employment in Newfoundland and ~;e picture does not look nearly as bad as hen. me~ers ray think. :.:n. D. JA!1!ESO!l: A supple~entary • ;:r. Speaker. ~ supplementar], the ~on. LeaCer of the Opposition. ~-1R.

D • JA."UESON : I w~nrler if ~;e hen. minister would agree wi~~ t..'1e current present Hinister of Fisheries in Ot'tawa t.ltat, in fact 1 the t.merr.plcymen't figures totally distor't the situation in Newfoundland and that they are infinitely worse than the statistics to ·,.,ilich the hen. men-.ber referred? 11ay I at the same tir.e ask hiM if all of these ~asures on which he is working are goL~g to have any i."llpact?

Hy question is with regard to the cord.ng Winter, the next fi•;e or six ront.i.s, when it is perfectly clear that there is going to be 1 ::rom any judgements ! :1ave ;.,een able t:.o t:'.a..lte and frorr:. any sources I have able t:.o assess 1 is go inc to l:e a verj high level of seasonal unerrployment. '-!:? .• SPSh:-:-::':P.: >rr. Speaker, I ::an ccnfirr:-, for the hon.

Leader of the CJpposition that the statistics t."iat we are using are not as accurate as we ·,:culd like ::or ther to l::e1 ::;ut •,;e have 'to use :;.;cr;ethi:tq. ·.1e Co not :,ave a large statistical ::::ase 'Nhich the Depar.:ment of Labour and !-!anpower can operate ·,;;ith,so we have to use these statistics that are available to us. l"..nd ~=- those statistics are accurate or have ~een accurate sir:.ce 1976 1 t:.hen t!"le '-.l!lerr.plo:n::e:tt r:1te :'or the coning ~-linter v:ill not l;e as Sad as what t.'":ey were la:st year. A suppleMentary. ~··r. Speaker. Final supplementary, the han.

Lea~er of t.'":e ~1?.. D • JA.>liESO~l : could the hon. the minister tell !!':C '4hether or not in rr.akinq these calculations his depart~cnt has taken into account the statist:.ics provided fer my colleague, t:.he hon. r:terrber for LuPcile {~:r. :•c-ary) on F:-iCa:.:· or '!'hursday - I Co not recall ·.:hich - ~If ich shov: ::m cut~r:igraticn of ::;orre of our Zest W'Orkers, that is,tl".e you::1ge.:- elenent in '.:!-te 'dOrk force, 2554

November 13, 1979 Tape !io. 1018 ::w - 2 :-1R. D. JAHIESOH: what I am us king t.'f:e hen .::r.ember, !'-!r. Speaker, is >vhet.1.er or not if t.l;.ose figures were taken into the equation Coes it mean that th.e employment situation in :1ewfoundland is improving or just sirr.ply that a larger nur.ber each year are getting fed up with the unemployment and they are rr.ovJ.ng away from newfoundland? SO~ HGN. >1Et-SEP.S : !1R. SPEAKER (SIRM.S) : :m. J. nnm: Hear, hear: The han. Minister of Labour and ~~anpower. Yes, :-tr. Speaker, there are statistics available to the han. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) and to all ather hon, merr.bers. ~bat I can say to the han. Leader of t.~e Opposition is over the past three years the employr,:ent of Newfoundlanders has increased month by ronth and year by year. The year by year outlook has been about 10,000 ~er year more into the labour force and are beinq emPloyed,which means that if you look at the statistics for 1976 to now we peaked

November 13, 1979 sse - Tape No. 1019 NM - l MR. DINN: in 1978 where we had the worst case for unemployment. This year that has gone back to the '76 levels, and we are not only beating or employing the 10,000 new people who are going into t.'i.e labour force; but we are creeping up on the statistical unemployment.

We were 1say; in January, February and :-!arch in a fairly bad situation with the Winter unemployment and so on 1 but the average over the year 'Nculd indicate to han. members that we reached the stage of what may be termed as statistical equilibri~~ in that we had, say 1 9,000 come into the labour force and not 9, 000 employed 1which meant t.'i.at we were not touching the 28,000 to 30,000 people who were what we might term chronicallY unemployed people but we are now getting into that sector and our employment rate is now reaching 10,000 to 11,000 per year and we hope to- 'hi th the programmes as I outlined before, the different depar~~ents are getting into the five year plans for each different sector- we 3ope to bring that down even more or increase the emplovment.

MR: FLIGHT: Mobility grants to Alberta. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. ~e~ber for LaPoile, a new question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for ~~e ~-tinister of Health. I do not think I have to tell t."le minister of the desperate situation .in Channel - Port aux Basques in connection ,,...ith the outdated, out~~ed, antiquated hospital fac~lties t.~ey have out there, could the han. gentleman indicate to the House ·.vhat time the people on the Southwest corner of the Province can expect const::uction of their hospital to start? !1R. SPEAKER: :.t~"t. HOUSE: The hon. !1inister of Health. !1r.

Speaker, I have been in contact wit:h bath the Chamber of Commerce and the hospital board with regard to this. of course 1 ~hey 1 like all o~~er areas of the Province, have been advised that we only had about Sllmillicn in t.'le budget last year for capital works and c.>tat c.'lere was noth.ing far the hospital on the Southwest Coast or Burin or Grand Falls, but that ·.;e were in the ;?recess of looking Z556

November 13, l9i9 3SC - Tape No. 1019 ~'M - 2 MR. P.OUSE: at the hospital needs, that they have changed somewhat from,say 1 five years ago, we were in the process of looking at it and they have been advised that as soon as we get cur updatlng of the plans put into place L~at ~~ey will be advised. I cannot advise them whether they will be advised exactly ',rhen it '4ill take place or when cons~uction will take place 1 but certainly they will be advised as ::o what time frame we are looking at. :.rn. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER (Sim.-ns): LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary, the han. member for Hr.

Speaker, do ! gather from the han. gentleman 1 s answer L~at the hospital for Channel - Port aux Basques rates top priority? can they expect any~~ing in this fiscal year cr will we have to wait for a new budget to be brought down before money 'tJill be allocated for the commencement of const:::'UCtion of that hospital? !4..-r:t. SPEAKER: The bon. ~inister of Health. M.R. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, I do not know :Ww you could detect about the top priority, There are a number of top ;riorities that I stated. Port aux Easc;:ues happens to be one of them. 2557

~;ove..'l'l.ber 13, 1979 Tape No. 1020 PK - 1 !1!". House: Of course, there are five or six others. There is no ~oney allocated in this year's Budget and we ~ill not know before ~he ~ext Budget what money will be allocated for the next year. ~'" NEARY: A final supplementary. .'ffi. SPEAKER (MR. SU"'J<I.S): A final supplementary. The han. me..~er for LaPoile. :ffi. NEARY': ~I. Speaker, the han. gentleman wonders out loud how I figure it is top priority.

Hell~ by the studies, the research that has been done in the han. gentleman's department, ~d the han. gentle..~an admitting publicly not in the House, but outside the House- that the situation in Channel-Port aux Basques is absolutely desperate. And so I am going to ask the han. gentleman again just how ·~uld he rate the hospital for Channel-Port aux Basques, say, in order of ten, how would the han. gentla~an rate the hospital for channel-Port aux Basques? Is it a number one priority? Is it in the top three? Just: where is it? ;;he people do not know where they stand·.

They like to know where they stand in connection with this. ~. SPEAKER: !-8.. HOUSE: the government rates it. AN HCN. ~MEER: SOHE HON. :.!EMBERS : .:1R. HOUSE: SOME HCN. ME:1EERS : ~R. HOCSE: The han. ~inister of Health. >1r. Speaker, it is very difficult to aay where Yes, it is not! Hear, hEar! It is very di=ficult . oh, oh~ we have not presented it to government. 11e have a departmental study going on for presentation to government. And there- fore, if he is ta2.kinq about it, I would say it is in the top fi•Je or six. .'<JR. SPEAKER: ;., new question, the han. member for Bonavista :larth. :·!R.

STIP.LI~iG: Thank you, :-.tr. Speaker. A question for ~he !·1inist:c1:" of YJ.anpower f>Ir. Dinnl. 2558

Noveml:::er 13, 1979 MIL NEARY: top three. :1R. STIRLING: Tape No. 1020 PK - 2 we were told by your predecessor that it is in the AS he is aware, and the House. is aware, the Unemployment Insurance has done a very cruel crackdown on certain members in the districts of Eonavista t1orth 1 Terra Nova, and Bonavista South as 'Nell. I wrote the minister: these carpenters are required to pay back substantial amounts of money because of employment problems they had no control over.

I wrote the minister and asked him if he ~~uld intercede with his federal colleague, because this whole campaign in the last election was how easy it was going to be for this group of P.Cs to negotiate with the group of P.Cs in Ottawa. minister interceded with his colleague on this matter? Has the MR. SPEAKER: !1R.. onm: MR. STI?L!:lG: people. :1R. S?£A.'l\ER: :1R. DI'NN: The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Yes, Mr. Speaker, with respect to unemployment insurance? The letter that ! wrote you specifically about three The hen. minister. ~~.

Speaker, I receive about forty letters a day, tr~t is what is coming into the depar~~ent right now, and they are from all :ton. members of the House. I cannot quite recall exactly what - HR, ~1EAH.Y: AN PON. :1E!1BER: HR. SPEA.'CER (S!Y.MS) : :--!R. STIRLING: SO!.W Ho.-1. ~·1E!·$EF.5 : !'-!R. STI?L!NG: I get double that number myself. Every hour, twice a day. ~- Speaker, with - By leave, :1.r. !1inister? By leave. Agreed. 3y leave,! Hill explain to the mi:iister the ;,;robler.t that I wrote him about.

The Une~plo:nnent Insurance people Cec~ded ~o crackdo~n on a nu:nber of carpenters whc ·-;ere w~rking fer speci.:ic employers in the districts Z559

Noveml::er 13, 1979 Tape uo. 1021 J\H-1 MR. STIP~ING: I menticned,and now including Eonavista South, Three years after the fact- in 1976,1977,1978- unemployment insurance has now written a letter to those carpenters saying ~"lat they have decided ~~at the employment was with employers who were net authorized to give stamps, although they did for those ~;ree years. These people have now been asked to pay back the money, There is no action being taken against the employer 1 who did Hhat they said he was not allowed to do.

The action is all being taken against the employees who worked for an hourly rate for ~;ese employers. Three years later they are now told they have to pay back all the money t."lat they have collected for unemployment insurance and that they have,without any furt.'1er conviction,decided to start taking it out of any unemployment insurance that they now receive. ! hope t."le minister now recalls the letter because it had a very substantial enclosure with it,including all of ~~ese problems 1 and I ask the minister if he would intercede. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) and t-tanpcwer. The hen. Minister of Labo~r MR.

DINN: I have to apologize to the hen. member. I have not received that letter myself 1 ! am quite sure. I have gene through gotten to it. unless it was a day or so ago and I have not MR. STIRLING: It was sometime last men~;. MR. DINN: I have not received t.'1.at letter, to my knowledge. It has not arrived on ~/ desk and if it had I would have been back to the hen. mett'ber because ! have a policy wit.'1in my own depar~'llent myself that anybody who,writes ft\e a letter I try to get back to them wit.~in ten days to ~No weeks.

So if the hen. metrber wrote me a mcnt."l ago and he has not received a reply yet 1 then obviously there is some breal{dcwn in ccm."l'lunications. Maybe he sent it to the wrong department. ~R. Sl?!:::AKER: Order, please~ Perhaps it might he appropriate for ~,e hen. rnett'ber to discuss it with t~e ~inister outsiCe the House later en. You can follow it '.!p in t.,at Z560

Nove~ber 13,1979 Tape No. 10:!1 AH-2 11R. SPEAKER: (Siirms) vei."l. because obviously tb.ere has been some ~~s-communications. A supplementary. The hon. member for 11onavista ~:ort..'l. MR. ST!RLWG: A supplenentary, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much. I will take that advice. It is because of the urgency of it ~~at I would like to ask a supplementary que~tion.

Will the minister consider - I realize it is a federal problem and they are going through the appeal procedure; these people are unemployed and on unemployment-will the minister consider providing financial assistance to these pecp~e to enable them to prepare their case, their legal case of appeal? MR. SPE!>.KER: The hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. ~-iR. DINN: Hr. Speaker, t."lere is no provision in the estimates passed by this House that allows me to provide monies to individuals ~o enable ~;em to ?resent a case to the federal government. It is a federal 2561

Nove~her 13, 1979 Tape ~lo. 1022 DW - 1 ~~R. J. DI:m: problem.! will endeavour to find out what the substance of t..."le problem is from the hen. member a little later on and I can assure him that we do have co-operatjon with the Federal Government. We have had two meetings with the han. minister, >1r. ;..tkey since he becat:~e t-1inister of t...~e Depar~cnt of Employ~~nt and Inrnigration and it has been at his initiation, if you will.

He has come down and -.re outlined sO!:ie of the r-roblems tb.at we have had here in ~!ewfounCland with respect to employment and '\Vith respect to Hinter programmes 1 a:u1 next Sur'!"."!:r. SO we are in the process new of ~ing t...~e plans to fit in wi~~ t...~e federal plans that had been outlined to me.and unemployment insurance is one of t...'1.e things we are discussing currently. ~~d i£ the hon. me~ber can ma~e his specific proble~s available to rr.e than I will certainly disc•.Jss '=.hem with the federal minister. \m. L. STIFLI!-lG: A supplementary, 1<-lr. Speaker.

Final supplementary, tte han. mer.-.ber for ~onavista ;Jort!1.. ~!?. L. ST!PLI:lG: In those consultations, ·~=. Speal.:er, could 11e usk the ~inister if t~ere has ~een any consultation or agreement Vetween his Ce?artr..ent and t.~e federal departn.ent to take

part in t.~is itind of crackdown? Are you awar~ of this kind of crackdown? The hen •. 'tinister of Labour anC !!anpower. ~r. Sr::eaker, the hon. ::er.l:er knows that that is totally a federal responsibility, 'de are discussing ;?r::Jgramrnes of er::;:;loyment and we arG attec:;pting to get :;rograrnmcs going so that ·.;~e c<J.n qat the chronically general area of ~:ewfounCland, the Province of :rew!'ou:J.dland ar.d !,al:raCor, anC also s;:ecific areas of high uner..ploY!',ent and t.'i.at is what we are attcrr:ptin? ':a Cc ric;ht now.

But i.: t!1e hen. :r.Cr:'ber has a specific flroblern,whicl'. he has outlL"'leC l'.ere today 1 if :-:.c can r-:aJ..e tl';ose speci:!'ics rr:ore available to ~e r t<·ill suarantee t..'1e ::on. r.crrber ':hat : •,;ill be in touch with the federal :ninist:er and see w~at, Z562

November lJ, 1979 Tape ~-lo. 1022 T!ie han. the LP.ader of t.heeOpp-osition. :-~. SpeaJ;er, at: the ,:nd of Question Period on Friday the ~~nister of Transportation and communications (~r. Brett) was, I think 1 prepared to answer a supplementarJ which unfortunately I did not :;e:: a chance to put in.

I ·,;auld like to Co it now,i.f I may, namely,has tt,ere been consultation with t."le residents ,in the general area of come by Chance and Sunnyside ._,.ith regard to his proposal to close off one lane in each directioni ~~d could I couple my question with a reiteration of the query as to why some form of, perhaps, manual light or something _of that nature might not be feasible for school buses and a~bulances 1 if his officials have lOoked at in a manner that might ensure that ~~is particular area of concern 1 aa~ely, ambulances ~~rning off of the ~ain highway, school buses coming onto t.."le highway, whethe:::- something could not be Cone there that might ir.--.prove ~he situation and would he undertake to have his officials talk,perha!:JS 1 to sorrc of the residents atout these two specific matters?

Z563

:lovew.J:::.er 13, 1979 a.::t. SPEAKER: (Simms) and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Tape No. 1023 SD - l The han. :,1inister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, to ~~e best of my knowledge ~~ere was no consultation with the council in sunnyside unless the mayor ~~ere was talking with the district director at Clarenville. ffe considered lighting before we decided to close it to inside lanes, but we felt that it would not be as good as closing the lanes. But if the council in Sunny::;ide are really st:::ang on some sort of lighting, then cert.ainly 'Ne would take a look at it.

As the han. member indicated 1 it is a manual sort of lighting and certainly that should not be too difficult to install. I would be only too happy to discuss it with my officials. I do not ~~ink the lines have actually been r,ainted yet so it may be possible to get t.he toth things done at the one time, ~. D. Jk~IESON: :1R. SPEAKER: Cppcsi tion. ~.ffi. • D, JAMIESON : Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementarf, the hon. 1eader of ~,e I ~~ank the han. member for both his answer and what I know is his genuine concern~ I can report to him as of ~~is morning that no change has been made and no lines have been painted ar.d ~,e situation is as it was when we discussed it last week.

I want to confirm, as anyb:Jdy who has driven over t.~e highway · .. till, I believe agree, that t.~ere is a ~ost serious situation there and I would be grateful with the minister in addition to examining these alternatives might, at same paint, give us a statement,perhaps in t.~e form of a letter to me or :::0 the councils,indicating the reasons why a particular choice is made, whatever that choice turns out to be. :.m. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Bank.. :1R. t. THOHS: :-tr.

Speaker, I have a CiUeStion for the hen. t..'le ~·linister of Justice, :iow that our Royal ~le•Nfoundland Constabulary are r~used in a beautiful new edifice, has ~~e minister given any t~ught to the establishment of a Police Commission in this citi'r a!1d also given any tb~ught ':0 releasing our Constabulary fror:t doing ~"l.e routine job of ticketing vehicles in ~e ci~y? Tne !"l.on. :·!ir.i.ster of J•.tst.ice. 2564

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1023 SD - 2 !1R. OTTENHEIHER: Mr. Speaker, with reference to the second part of the question, it is a matter which is under study, It would, of course, require that, you know, some others do that work and it is a matter in which there would no doubt have to be negotiations with ~,e City Council,but it is a matter which we are giving study to.

I think the first part of t.~e questior.s dealt with a Police Commission, ~e 3re also considering examining the practice in various provinces with respect not so much a Polio Commission for the city but perhaps a provincial, if you wish, citizens' appeal board, or whatever name one were to give it. We are examining practice i.n ather provinces in that respect.from the point of view of Z565

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1024 NM - 1 ~1R. OTTEN!WIHER: Provinco-wide~ rather than restricted 1 say 1 to St. John's or this specific area. HR. SPEAKER (Simms}: We have time for one final supplementary. The bon. menber for Grand Bank. !1R. THOHS: Could the Hinister of Justice also indicate •tJhet."ler or not he has made any internal enquiries into the :1ewfoundland Constabulary in connection with the instructions from the Police Chie£ as to quotas in the city, police having to serve so many tickets? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Justice. l1R. OTTENHEI!-'.ER: Mr.

Speaker, I think I can only reiterate what I did say in L~is House some time ago and that policy has been made quite explicitly and that is that there is no law enforcement policy of quotas. Quotas is not a criteria with respect to law enforcement policy. :-m. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. NOTICES OF HOTION: i·m_. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the CounciL i1R. :-tn.F.SF.ALL: :-tr.

Speaker, on behalf of the han. the Premier I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, ''An Act Respecting The Reorganization Of Certain Government Departments and }tatters Related Or Incidental Thereto." fmC on behalf of t..."H:! han. t!"!e :!inister of Finance I give notice that I will on toror:row ask leave to introduce a bill, dntitled, "~..n Ac't To Amend The Public Pensions Act". 2566

~-Iovember 13, 1979 Tape No. 1024 NH - 2 ?RESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for Humber 'tlest. :m. BAIRD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition en behalf of the three districts of Hur.ber East, H~~er West and ~e Bay of Islands. Three could not present it ,so we did have a meeting and it was agreed that I would present the petition. on behalf - AN HON. HE.."'!BER: Is 'Luke' net ~~11? MR. BAIRD: The member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow)1 I understand,is home sick, Sir.

The petition reads, "A petition of the citizens of the city of Corner Brook organized by the Corner Brook Senior Citizens Authority," dated October 29th., 1979. I would li/>e to recognize Hr. Harrison Cooper and Hr. Simms, two senior citizens who came in from Corner Brook to present the petition. SOHE HGN. :-l.EHBERS: Hear, hear! ~R. BAIRD: Some statistics on ~~e petition, Mr. Speaker. It is the municipal boundary of Corner Brook only. The number of st=eets, roads and avenues ~otal 298. The ~otal number of names on this petition,6,416 which I believe is the largest ever presented in this House.

The breakdown on the age bracket, ages 18 t.o 30 - _2,633; 31 to 59 - 2,698; 60 years and over - 1,085. It: might be 2567

November 13, 1979 Tape 1025 EC - 1 MR. BAIRD: interesting to note, in the last municipal election the nlll!lber of votes cast was 8,129.

The prayer of the petition reads as follows: ''Your petitioners, therefore, pray that Her Majesty the Queen in right of Newfoundland, as represented by the hen. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the members of the House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labr;<~dcr, do forthwith take the necessary action 'tO dissolve the City Council of Corner Brook and replace the Mayor and councillors of t."tat council with a, Commission of Administration to administer, manage and operate the aifairs of the citizens of Comer Brook until such time as ~ nev- muniCi!?al election should be held to choose and elect a new municipal council." Mr.

Speaker, I would like this petition to go to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. N. Windsor}, and in view of the fact that we do have 6,416 names presented on that petition, I would 1lle for it to be passed on to the respecJve minister and the Depart.ment of Municipal Affairs. MR. SPEA.KER: {Simms) The hen. the member for the Strait of Selle Isle, MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the minister wishes to say a word or two, I would be delighted to hear from him. I will yield gladly. Well, Mr. Speaker, the member for Humber WeSt (~.

Baird) presented the pat.i t.ion very, verjt ably, and I can understand why his colleague from Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow), who has never been noted for his reticence, is not with us today and I can understand why the member for Humber East (Ms Verge) , as a :nember of the Cabinet, quite properly did not speak on this. She will have an opportunity, obviously, to speak when the ~atter is considered by the Cabinet. Hear, hear! Z568

November 13 1 1979 Tape 1025 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS; Mr. Speaker, the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird} did not support the petition nor did he reject it, and I am not sure that is entirely proper but I do not raise an objection because, Sir, we on this side are going to take our lead from the member for Humber Hestand the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. N. Windsor). ! do say that this petition ought to be taken very seriously. It is signed by, I believe, six thousand - ~1R. BAIRD: MR.

ROBERTS: Six thousand, four hundred and fifteen. - roughly six thousand five hundred citizens of the city of COrner Brook, people who have considered the matter and have affixed their signatures to a petition. That is something that the minister, his officials and his colleagues in the Cabinet should treat very seriously. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. RCBERl'S: Having said that, I want to go on to say that, speaking purely personally, I think the remedy for this kind of problem is in t.~e ballot box and I suspect rost members of the House would agree.

That may not be what the petitioners want to hear but it is what I, as an individual, believe. We have been through it in Corner Brook, Sir. There was a tiroo: a number of years ago when the council was suspended there and we had government by Commission, and in due course, the government of t:he day, the Smallwood administration, restored municipal demacra~J, which is, I believe, the right position to take. I think the minister should tell us where the government stands. It is a decision by the government.

Onder the legislation in this Province they have the power - by Order in Council it could be done t.~is day, Mr. Speaker - to suspend that council in Corner Brook. I think is squarely incumbent upon the minister and the government to say exactly where they speak. For our part, Sir, we think the petition should be taken seriously. We think th.e matters complained of should be looked into and investigated and then t.h.e government should tell us exactly where t.~ey stand. 2569

November 13, 1979 Tape 1025 EC - 3 aR. ROBERTS : In that sense, Sir, we are glad that the hon. gentleman from Humber Wes'C (Hr. Baird) did his duty and presented the petition - he did not support it, I do not fault him for that, Sir- I think this is perhaps the sort of issue that the government should take a stand on. A member's duty is to bring the petition before the House, which is what the hen. gentleman has done, and in that sense, I cottmend him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Hear, hear~ The hen. the Minister of Municipal Affairs Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do welcome this opportunity to respond to this petition, and in so do1ng 1 I would like to join with my CQlleague from Humber West in offering congratulations to the senior citi:ens group from Corner Brook who have taken up this petition, particularly the two gentle:r.en who are with us in the gallery today. r would also like to thank them for ~~eir courtesy in providing me with a copy,whic~ was delivered to my office this morning under a covering letter fro'm their group, Just to respond very briefly to it, first of all, let me say that a decision on this matter has to be taken by ~~e whole government, not by the minister, although the petition requests the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to dismiss the council of Corner Brook.

I would simply point out to the han. House that a decision of that nature has to be taken by cabinet as a whale, t..'lat the minister does not have the authority. In that regard, certainly, we will take t.."lis petition under very serious consideration and will respond accordingly. However, r would like to make a couple oi just verf brief comments as to the content of the ~570

November 13, 1979 Tape 1026 PK - l :.ffi. WINDSOR: petition; a nuwber of statements or allegations pade therein in the

preamble to the prayer of the petition. The petition states the tax in the City of Corner 3rcok is 100 per cent higher than- other municipalities in the Province. I question the validity of that. I had a few moments over lunch hour to check a couple of figures and I find that a similar house in Corner 3rook assessed at approximately SJO,OOO would have a tax rate of approximately $470,

whereas in Grand Falls a similar home would be S414; Stephenville SJSl, and I have two or three other exa~ples. So there is no question,hcweve~ that the tax rate in the City of Corner Brook is somewhat higher than most other municipalities. I am not sure that it is higher than the municipalities in the Maritimes, but then it is difficult to compare,sometimes,municipal taxes with municipalities in the Maritimes because they do have school taxes and hospital taxes and other things - AN HON. ~'-1BER: Welfare. MR. WINDSOR: - welfare taxes, right, - rolled into one.

So it is someti~es difficult to compare,as the hen. gentleman says, scmetL~es it is, in fact, apples and oranges. The petition states that senior citizens, for instance 1 have been assessed municipal taxes on the basis of income. That is not accurate, I am afraid, because, first of all 1 persons are not assessed municipal taxes on the basis of incc~e. They may be granted exemptions on the basis of income, but they are assessed taxes on the basis of real property value 1 in the case of Corner Brook.

A nUil".ber of other statements here_, Your Honour 1 refer to things or matters relating speci£ically and prL~arily to the City or Council of Corner Brook and, of course,! am not in a position to answer whether or not statements by certain persons \".ave t>een made or 'Nhatever. There is a reference here 7..o a previous submission made by a group asking that the approval of the minister be delayed with regards to the approval of the Budget for the City of Corner Brook. I simply point out again, now, as I thi~k I did at that time, that the BuCget of the City ~f Corner Brook Coes not require a ~inisterial 2571.

:loVe!l".ber 13, 1979 Tape 1026 PK - 2 Yx. Windsor: approval, and that the City of Corner Brook has the authority to give it. ~·!R. ROBERTS: The City of Corner Brook and the City of St. JoLn's are the only two~are they not? HR, 'f/Ul"DSOR: That is right, yes. Hopefully, if the proposed piece of legislation coming before the Hause is approved by this han. House then all municipalities will be in the same happy position, as it should be. AN HON. MEMBER: {Inaudible) . HR. WINDSOR: Yes. One other co!l"~ent on a matter of - I am running out of tL~e I realize that - tax concessions to industries.

The petition specifically relates to a couple of concessions that have been made to industries I can simply point aut that,again,under The City Of corner Brook Act, the city does have the authority to make these concessions. We may argue that they are wise or otherwise, however, it is certainly within the power of the Council of Corner Brook duly elected, as the han. gentleman has said, to make such ex~~ptions. Other than that, Hr. Speaker, I accept this petition on behalf of the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the Government.

I can assure hon. gentlemen that ·we will give it every possible consideration and will respond in due course to the senior citizens. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. ~RSHALL: order 2, Bill ~o. 1. on motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Refor.n The Law Respecting The Property Of !>!arried Persons." {Bill No. 1) The han. member fer Terra ~lava. SC.!E HON. ."1E.:1BERS : Hear, hear! Z572

November 13, 1979 Tape 1026 ?K - 3 MR. LUSH: ~x. speaker, George Orwell in his Utopian animal farm explained how difficult MR. ROBERTS: Utopia? MR. LUSH: Utopian anittal farm. HR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) ~~e han. gentleman's Utopian (inaudible) .MR. LUSH: - explained how difficult it was to arrive at the state of complete equality~ and concluded that some people are more equal than others.

And I believe possibly that is the state of affairs that we may have in this particular bill unless, of course, th·e government will listen to some of the advice that we on this side of the House will give in the next few days when we will debate this major piece of legislation. Under this bill, ~- Speaker, on Friday I pointed out that we on this side of the House support the principle of this bill, as my previous colleagues, the two or three that have spcken, have so eloquently stated 1 that we categorically and unmistakably support the principle of this bill1 the main thrust of which, :1r.

Speaker, is to reform t~e law with respect to matrimonial property and in particular recognize the equal position of spouses within a marriage. And think, again, somebody pointed out that it is only common sense to support a bill of this nature. Before getting into the essence of my remarks I want to commend the Minister of Justice (!.t.r. Ottenheimer) for the excellent and fine manner in which he introduced this particular bill, tracing as was apropos to do, all the democratic rights and privileges that have been obtained by women , in particular, in the last numter of years 2573

November lJ, 19i9 Tape No. 1027 t>'M - 1 :·m. LUSH: in ~his Province and!indeed 1 in Canada and in ':he United Kingdom. ~~d, ~tr. Speaker, having done this he painted out the magnitude of this particular bill 1 and there is no question that it is a very significant bill, a bill of immense magnitude to the people of this P=avince. I ~~ink the member for Stephenville (Hr. Stagg) showed his grasp of t.his bill when he talked about the political significance of the bill. I happen ::o differ, :1r. Speaker. I think there is no political significance t.o this bill at all.

I do believe that there is significance, major signific~nce to this bill but it is not political. Its political significance would be about as important.,! would suggest, as ice fishing in Hiami and that puts ::hat aside. 3ut,nevertheless 1 an important: bill, a bill of major signi£ica.'1Ce and that is why we an this side of the House want to debate ~he bill. We have no intention, Mr.

S9eaker, to delay or proc::-ast.inate the passage of this ;;articular bill, none at all, but we •..;ant to make sure that we have debated the bill sufficiently so as to iron out any flaws, any inaccuracies, any 't~eaknesses that__. might l:le in this bill so that we can avoid the •.vrath and the scourge of future generations of Newfoundlanders. We ~ant to make this a good bill, an excellent bill as ~uch as the government: does, but we believe ~~at there are some inherent weaknesses in ::his particular bill as it is now constituted.

In the last session of the House of Assembly we debated ~~is bill at great length and I believe as a result of the debate 1 and as a result of the cont.ribution of me~bers on both sides of the Souse that we were able to get some major changes co this bill 'Nhi.c:,. has improved the bill. But certainly goodness nobody '..;auld suggest chat we have here a perfect bill, a bill that '.ve would be proud of, a bill that will cause no legislators of this ?rov~nce any embarrassment. ~. Spea~er, to think otherwise •,.;auld !Je a lo~ of C:olly. So ::his is why, :1r.

Spea.l<'.:er, we want to debate ::he ±:ill. :·le do not want to unnecessaril? delay passage of the Z574

Nove~~er 13, 1979 Tape No. 1027 NH - 2 MR. LUSH: bill but we want to debate the bill to make sure and certain 1 as far as we can here, to ensure that the bill is a good bill. Of course there is nothing to say that down the road as different circumstances develop and as society changes, that things in the bill would have made it indeed anachronism but, Mr. Speaker, as far as 'He can determine today I think it: should be the duty of all hon. members to ensure ~at we have here a good bill, a bill over which we should all be justly proud.

Again! as I have said 1 we have got no intention to unnecessarily delay or procrastinate at all in this W4tter but simply to have good rational and intelligent debate. it is the aim of all han. members. This is our aim and I am sure Mr. Speaker, we have had the benefit and the experience of six other jurisdictions throughout Canada so there is no reason why we should not have the best legislation in Canada relating to the :-!.atrimonilal Property 1;ct. 'i'ie should certainly have the seventh best since we are the seventh province to pass such legislation.

So we can hardly say that in respect to developing or initiating a Matrimonial Property Act, that we are pioneers or innovators. Mr. Speaker, that is not to take away, in t.•w neantime, from the courage of the government in introducing this particular bill and I want to congratulate them. But again, as I have said, we want to make sure that we have a good bill, that everything in fine print is analyzed and digested by those people who understand the legal jargon r:hat is encompassed 'Hi thin the bill. I get the impression that there is some move on the part of the government to rush t:his bill ..

I do not: know 'Nhat the immediacy is, :-.tr. Speaker, I do not know 'Nhat t.I'l.e urge net is, ZS75

llovernber 13,1979 Tape Ho. 1028 }'Ji-1 ti!P •• LUSH: I do not know why we want to rush this bill through, a bill that will affect the lives of every married person in this Province and every unmarried person in the future. So I do not see the reason why we should rush this bill. I think it is important that we all take our time and digest everything that is within this bill being that it is an historic bill and a major bill .

So it is very important t.~at we c!ebate every clause in this particular bill to insure, as I have said befcre 1 that we de net create more problems than the bill was meant to correct, ~~at we do not create more injustice than the bill was meant to correct. The bill, Mr. Speaker, is designed to look after , to correct, I would suggest, a small number of injustices ~~at have taken place in society.

And though I myself view the b~ll as the bill reads, mainly giving legal recognition to each spouse in marriage, recocnizing eoual oartnership 1th f ~ . ~ ~ • ere are some quarters o course, t.'lat 'N'ill look at it purely as it pertains to women. But I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that in view of the changing society today where there is·· an increasing number of females entered into the work force, an increasing number of women that are working, career women, I would suggest that ~~e bill certainly relates equally to male and female, and as the bill is presently constituted 1 that there could be injustices to both sexes. Mr.

Speaker, looking at c~~er bills, similar bills ~~roughout Canada, the main difference be~Neen ~~is bill and the other bills in Canada, as I understand it, relates to the matrimonial home and I believe there. are some weaknesses in this particular part of t..~e bill. I see no reason,!·!!l Speaker, why tr:ere should not be equal ownership of a matrirnonial heme that was acquired during marriage. That is cctnn'.on sense.

There is no reason why t.l-.at should not be ·,no reason in t.~e worlC. that a home that was acquired by a couple during t..~eir years of marriage, where they struggled to save money anC: dollars and invest it in a home, tl1ere is no reason ZS76

~1overr.ber 13,1979 Tape Uo. 1028 AH-2 :~R. LUSH: why there should not be equal ownership, a fifty/fifty deal, certainly no reason. Eut, Mr. Speaker, as it is presently constituted in this particular bill I think it raises some questions'Where there are no conditions attached to how the horne was achieved,or any length of time, where there is no consideration given to" conduct or behaviour in the matter of the break-up of the marriage, I think these are serious considerations. Now these considerations are made with respect to the disposition and ~~e division of the matrimonial assets and that is rightly so.

Why ~~~t is not made a part of the matrimonial home deal I do not understand. I think it should be. And I think if it were Cesigned ~~at way it would not be necessary to have the contracting out, I believe that if the matrirronial herr~ was set up in the same way as it relates to disposition anr division as to the ~atrimonial assets, I do not ~~ink ~~ere would be any reason to allow anybody to opt out of this particular contract.

But because it is so sweeping L~ that particular instance, because it is so sweeping wid;. respect to the matrimonial :tome, t..~en,I t.,r,.ink, this is what caused people to ask for the contracting out. But let me reiterate again 1 and I believe if there were conditions attached to the matrimonial home then I do not think there would be any necessity at all for the cont!'acti.r.g cut. To my mind and in my view, Xr. Speaker, there is a wea~ness in ~~e general sweeping powers in this particular clause of the matrimonial home and ! .,·ould suggest that there are some injustices in this particular case.

This particular clause opens itself up for all kinCs of •,o~rongdoing, all kinds of injustices, and I 'Hould certainly hope t~at the government, ~r,.e members on the ot.'ler side, would taY~ a look at this particular clause, Mr. Speaker, would take a look at it and 2577

November lJ, 1979 Tape No. 1029 so - 1 :m. T, LUSH: see if there is not some ~ay that that can be changed to make it a more equitable arrangement. Because I 'Neuld suggest that there are circumstances that can develop to make this very inequitable, I think, Mr. Speaker, the act of marriage in itself does not necessarily require th.at somebody come into equal ownership of a property that was existing before sarriage. I see no reason for that without again as I have said before, taken terms of the length of the marriage, taken terms of how the property was achieved. Sut, Mr.

Speaker, again the home ~~at was achieved during the marriage as is outlined wi~~ respect to the matrimonial assets, it is only common ser.se ~~at it be divided or that it be o~ned equally. The me..'"lber for St. John 1 s North {Hr. J. Carter) , I believe, also raised some questions. I am not sure that I can articulate it in precisely the manner in which he advanced it to the House; it had to do wi~~ in the event of death to one spouse and there were children remaining.

In the event, then, of a second marriage, what happens to that property[ l~'hat happens to that matrimonial home?In ~~e event, in other words, of death in the secor~ marriage, how is ~~t 50 per cent divided up and how do the c.'lildren fit int:o this arrangement:? 'c/hat are th.eir righcs? Do t.~ey just:. own the SO per cent of the assets of the deceased spouse? If so, how do they get that 50 per cent? These are problems, :<ir. Speaker, that. t.'le people of this Province need to knnw. '!'hese are problems t.~a t the Legislature need to know. N.r. '=peaker, how about •.;ills in this Province?

Do t.~ey all have 00 be done uver again? If so, we are going to have an awful lot of work ~it.h lawyers in this Province and other people getting t.'l.eir wills. I am glad I have not. nade mine, I •...-as thinking about doing it but I was waiting for this - :.l:R. E. ROBERTS: .'4R. T. LUSH: Is t:.."le han. gentle.>:~an proposir.g to die? Oh, no. t.;lwyers tell :::e ~'1at you should have a 'Hill and I nave not r:1ade one yet but I am gCling t:.o do it aft:er this act. gets passed. 2578

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1029 so - 2 :1R. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, so ~~e intent of members on this side of the House, Sir, is not to delay this bill. As I have said before, I want to make that very clear, it is not to delay the passage of this bill but it is to ensure ~~at all of the flaws and all of the weaknesses and all of the inadequacies are identified so that we can come up with an excellent bill, a bill of which we shall all be justly proud. As I said before, as a result of t...'le debate that took place in this hen.

House in the last session 1 we were able to bring around, to bring about, some changes 1 changes that made_ the bill immensely better than what it was previously. And I believe if we got down to business, if we co-operated, because this is a bill of bnmense magnitude and it is not something that can be pushed through, rushed through, but it deserves the attention o:f all members in this House to ensure that we have an excellent bill. And I certainly hope that t...,e government will listen and pay attention. Thank you. SOHE HO:i. :-i.EMBERS: Hear, hear. :1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Exploits. DR.

TWO!-'.EY: It is with pleasure that r arise and support this bill but I know that there are some problems ~'lat will arise in ~~e future. However, i: is timely that this bill has come in for the emancipation of women in general, who have been,down through ~~e ages,under ~le traditional ancient morals of a male dominated society. r know ~'lat this bill, if it will do nothing else, will help in ~~eir emancipation which I ~'link is ~~e ambition o:f everyone o:f us in ~~is House as we sit here to ponder on ~~e thoughts and ideas that are included in this bill.

For too long we are aware that children have been vicc.imized, wives have been victimized by this male dominated society where the ,,..ill was the only means of passing on property. Senne of t:.~ese .. scars have been left until the end of their l~ves. It has cost ~~is countrj dearly and the people of this country.

Perhaps it is well that it being t:.'le Year of the Child ~~is bill might be considered -ropit~ous bec~use not alone does it correct the inequalities of marriage but it could heJp in some degree to alleviate t...~e stress of L~e children ~~~t have often been left impoverished financially ar~ ~mot~onally. ~hey ~re 2579

November lJ, 1979 Tape No. 1029 SD - 3 DR. T".Yat1E'f: now in a position ~~at ~~ey can, at least, have a home over their heads. I know there are many reasons for marriages; there are the romantic and t.1-te practical. Most of us would think and hope that our marriages 2580

November 13, 1979 Tape 1030 EC - 1 DR. TilOHEY: are both romantic and practicaL The poets of other centuries have written of the romantic aspect of marriage, but there are certain cultures who have brought the practical aspect into it, and in looking over their laws and their contracts, one can see ~~e practicality, especially where there is a heritage, a heritage that is the right of the children, in particular. This act could, and should, possibly 1 lend itself to a more thoughtful approac.'l to marriage.

Because I know if wealth lies in one particular field ~'1-at a marriage contract might be considered a prerequisite, especially if the wealth is possessed by one of the married partners. In these cases, I am sure that a contract will be much. more COI!ImOn than it has been in the past, because only in this way can they preserve property that is part of their heritage and their right. As I see it, by this acto possibly premarital medical examinations will become much rore cclllmOn than they have in the past. AN HON • MEMBER: OR. TWOMEY: AN HON. MEMBER: DR. TWOMEY: AN RON. MEMBER: DR.

TWOMEY: Premarital medical authorities? Yes. Will {inaudible} Why? (Inaudible). Yes. In some marriages, if schizophrenia pre­ exists before the marriage takes place, it is considered null and void in ~~e eyes of some churches. A.'l HON • MEMBER: DR. TWOMEY: AN HON • MEMBER: DR. 'NOJ-'I.E'l: Sc.'l.i:ophrenia? Yes. That is a - A marriage null and void. MR.. P!JBE.Rl'S : Would ~~e ho~. gentleman permit a question, Mr. Speaker? !offi. SPEAKER: {Baird) Belle Isle. The hon. the member for the Strait of Z581.

November 13, 1979 Tape 1030 EC - :Z MR. BOBERTS: I find this to be a most intriguing aspect~ The hon. gentleman was saying that sc.ltizophrenia - that is a split personality, if I understand correctly. DR. TWOMEY: Correct. MR. ROBERTS: In some jurisdictions it is held as law that a schizophrenic who enters into a marriage is not capable of entering into the marriage on the grounds that he or she is not mentally capable? DR. TWOMEY: Yes, that is correct. MR. ROBERl'S: But that is not so, I would submit, anywhere in Canada. The Minister of Justice - DR. TWOMEY: Well, I cannot argue. MR.

ROBERTS: No - I find it intriguing. I mean, I can think of lots of people who thought they were cracked to get married - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS : - some before and some after, but maybe the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) could speak, because that point is not dealt with in this bill but is a most intriguing concept if, in fact, the hon. gentleman has run against it in the Canadian experience. DR. TWOMEY: I have, very close to St. John's. MR. roBERTS: And the marriage .,..as held voidable? - not void, but voidable? AN HON. MEMBER: A religious annulment? DR. TWOMEY: AN HON. ME."!BER: MR.

ROBERI'S: A religious annulment, yes. (Inaudible) I believe it is - I misunderstood ~~e bon. gent1eman 6 But this bill, he understands, deals, only as it can, with th.e civil state of marriage. The religious state of marriage is a matter beyond ~~e scope and ken of this House or, in fact, of any House. But the hen. gentleman was not suggesting that this was the case. The schizophrenia matter applied in a civil marriage, did it7 DR. TWOMEY: For the legal dissolution of a civil marriage 1 no - in a religious marriage. 2582

November 13, 1979 M..tt. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS; AN HON. MEMBER: ~~: DR. 'lWOMEY: Tape 1030 EC - 3 I thank the hon. gentleman, but I am - I believe it is an annulment. Particularly in the Reman Church? Perhaps. I see. I thank the hon. gentleman. In discussing this, I feel that this is most important when a home is passed on as part of a heritage.

I know there are practical as well as romantic reasons for marriage. ',;e all know about the romantic, but the practical reasons are frequently eonsidered where a younger spouse with intelligence, ambition, imagination and actuarial experience will marry an older individual in the hope that they can accumulate wealth at the demise of their senior spouse within a few years. I am sure there are many, many other reasons which have already been mentioned, and I am sure that the minister will address himself to these when he replies at the end of our debate here. Thank you. Z583

!:ovember 13, 1979 ~R. SPEAKER {HR. BA!P.D} XR. L. STIRLDJG: Tape ::o. 1031 The han. nember for Bonavista ~lort.lt. Thank you, very nuch, ~r. Speaker. Despite all the previous discussion in ~lte last sitting of ~lte House 1 and all of ~lte ef=orts by the present government and the me~bers of ~lte Opposition to get across t.~e t:>.essage to tl:',e people of ~1ewfoundland that this is a very vital piece of legislation, it does not seem as if we have b~en successful if t.'1e turnout in the gallery is any :l.ndication. Because, :-tr.

Speaker, •~:hat this act is1and maybe we should change the wording -what this Act is, in that there is now going to be in effect an agreement between a husband and wife, there is going to be an agreement in effect for every husband and wife in Newfoundland. ~:ow they, on their O\>:n, thought they could work things out and did no'!: need a legal agreement but the government in this Act is saying to every narried couple in ~Tewfoundland1 you now have an ag-reement.Whether you like it or not 1 you ~ave an agreement. ,\nd the messug~ nust go out to those people to say, 'If you do not agree with the agreement ~~at the government has made up for you' which is this agreement 1 and I am sure the !'1ir,ister of Education (~~s. •:ergel would agree 1 l:ecause I have read t.~rough some of !"ler e:<arnples of the l:'eal hardship 'Nhere the government ~as also made an agreernent 1 on )Jehalf of pc>ople, and that agreerr,ent is '"'here a o::erscn does not consiCer it i~ortant cnouc;h to rral·-.e a ~~ill. :<!y colleague said a 5ew minutes ago saiC he 'tlas thin.Ying a-"out ::!a.king a ;·1ill.

Wel~,the government has already maCe a 'iJill for him. Sar..e of these hardship c~~~s that t~e ~inister has talkeC about is where the government made a 'Hill, says if you <.!o not rnal.:.e one we ~<till :':'ake one for you.' It is r.ct called t:.at, it is not called a :·:ill. This r:.;:;.y ::::~ o~:e o: ::he ~::d:::.la:r:-..s ·,rr0 t.."lis is ::.ot: called a :2rriaae agrce!".ent but it is a ~~==.!.::rc agrec::".Cnt' just ::.n -=.'1e sar:o.c 'da:• as somebody ·,;ho r1ies •,;it!-.out a Vlill ~as the court say, ore-third (inaudibl~J Legislature (inaddi~le) "::l L.

ST!?.Lr;G: ':he :;:overnrr.ent ~as maCe a Hill :'or an indiviCual and t::te :r.inister poi::.ted out some instances where on the dcat!-. of scr.ebociy •,.rho Z584

:~over.-.ber 13, :979 Tape No. 1031 DH - 2 '-JR. Lw STIF.LTIIG: hardships and she gave us two or three exa~ples of that sort of ~~ing. She also gave us some examples of a person who did not like the government's Will so he left his House to his girlfriend.

That person is now going to have to find. a way to get the girlfriend to :rove int:o tl;,e Eo use and that t.'1ey will have to subrni. t to have therr:sel ves cor.-_e unCer this 1\ct. ! r:!o not think t.'1at t.'1ere is any t..l;inking person in ~ewfoundland ~<-tho will dispute the need to do something to prevent the preble~~ that L~ ?articular,the minister has brought up1 and a Couple of the lawyers brought .it up some of t.'1e examples. I too have had examples of cases of real hardship and real concern.

And I think it is our duty to make sure that we are trying to draft legislation which will cure the problem, not just add to the problem.. TheZ!efcre, Mr. Speaker, my remarks are in the context of 'DOes this Act really go far enough? Have we not just r.aCc a start? ~~d should not there be some ongoing study and ongoing workf For exampl~ as I unCerstand the hct, the Act new says, once it corr.es into effect, July ::!.980, 'Every home being occupied by a married couple - A.N' HOH. ~MBER: No, not a married cr'·- ~1R. L. STIRLDlG: ~lo, under the Act, has to be a ll',arried couple unCer the Jl.::t .. Z585

November l3, 1979 Tape No. 1032 NM - 1 Yl-"·· STIRLING: Every home occupied by a married couple, if ~ey should divorce or split up or if he dies, if there is a split-up of - every home is owned fifty-fifty, if I understand it correctly? Now, I know this specific case in which a ma=r~age broke up and they went to court and the court essentially did exactly what this act will do, say ''Okay, it is :-:ow fifty-fifty and as t.,is act says it is now fift7-fi£t.y." W'hat happens after that7 As I understand it from the people who are lawyers, t.~e courts are already overloaded and behind.

Who is going to decide on the split-up of a marriage as to what is going to happen to that property? wnat happens if ~,e wife has four children, six children and she is going to stay in the home and the husband says, "Now, I want my hal!: of that home.'' .\re we going to sell the home out from under the children and c..,e wi£e? Or is she going to have to start paying off her half,

section 13? :AS. VERGE: (Inaudible). :.tR. STIRLING: Would you like to get up and explain it then? ! would give '~Yay for a few minutes if you would like to explain

section 13. Z1R. SPEAKER: The han. :.J.inister of Education. :1S IERGE: ~1r. Speaker,

section 13 of this Matrimonial ?roperty Act provides for an application of a spouse to L~e court on the question of possession of the matrimonial home and this

section of t.'le ac't. gives the court the power t:o make a nUif'.ber of orders one of "'hich is a 3irection that one spouse be given exclusive possession of a matrimonial home or part thereof :or li:e or for such lesser period as the court decides. It goes un t:o say ~'lat the court may also, by order, direct a spouse to whom exclusive possession is given t.o pay periodic or other payments to t.,e other spouse. It allows a court to direct ~,at ~~e contents of a ~atrimonial home ~emain in a home and ~t goes on to allow a court to authorize ~,e disposition or mor~gage of the interest of a spouse in a home ""he has :1ot been granted And in subsection \2) of

section l3, it says that:, '"tihere a 5urvi•nng spouse does no<: reside in t..,e mat.:rimonial Z586

November 13, 1979 Tape ~-lo. 1032 NM - 2 MS VERGE: home at the time of the death of the other spouse and a child resides in that matrimonial home at that time, the court may, on L~e application of the child through a next friend, direct that the child 1 through his guardian 1 be given exclusive possession of the home, So through

section 13 of the Act there is provision for a court, upon application by a spouse,~o direct that one spouse 1 with children or without children, be able to remain in exclusive possession of the home so that the question of a spouse being put out on the street in a hardship case would be prevented through that mechanism. l1R. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. STIRLING: The hen. me~ber for Bonavista North. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I think the minister just illustrates the verj point that I am making.

The minister illustrates the very point that I am ~akingin that after this act is .1n effect the very first thing that the spouse has to do is to go to court, which is where they arc right now at the present time. The majority of the cases that •,.;e are all concerned about are the hardship cases and these are the cases that will end up in court, which is where they end up now. And that this is why I am wandering if we do not go far enough with this act in that we need to provide some special handling, some special speedy mechanism of getting this dealt with through a court, a special appeint~~nt of the judge.

If this is so important, and T think it is, I think it is a very important piece of legislation. It is not enough just to pass the legislation and then not provide the funds and the court and w~e judges to handle it. And the minister makes the pain~ very well. This act of itself does net do a thing to that destitute woman who then has to go to court and the court has to decide, "':-.bat is she going to do ·..;ith that debt that she owes?

This guy :..s entitled t.o this.'' ~nd she says it rr.ay t':i.ake provision ::or hi:n paying it sor<.e time and if ':.here is scnebody in the :iouse - in other •.;ords, you brough-:: c.he court back in. Bu-r:: I understand that the courts are already years !:lehind in dealing 'Nit:.'l ::his 'Nork, certainly months and Z587

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1032 NM - 3 !1R. STIRLING: months and months and months, :1R. THOMS: Years. It is years. MR. STIRLING: Okay, thank you. I ~~not a lawyer ~~d I was only taking the comments from others. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that when this Legislature decides that we are going to interfere or intercede in the daily liues of every Z588

Nove~ber 13,1979 '!'ape No. 1033 AH-1 ~R. ST!P.L!NG: man and '""oman in this Province,- it is not enough to intercede and just throw in a piece of legislation. Now, I know ~~e minister has been £ighting long and hard for ~~is first step and I am not suggestin~ that we should net go this first step, what I am suggesting is that she gave up to soon, ~~at she should have pressed her colleagues to provide additional funding.This does not carry -with it one nickle. If I a:n incorrect in that you can correct it,.

This does not, as :!:ar as I can see, does not carr] with it one nickle that will help bring about the very thing ~at the minister, the government, this side wants to bring about 1 and that is to do something about the hardship cases. Mr. Speaker, what about the children? We are now in the Year of the Child and some of the metrbers i'n this House have already suggested that we should bring in legislation dealing with the rights of the child, either born or unborn. This act talks about :naybe the first step, the spouse, but '""hat about the children? Is it not, Mr.

Soeaker, that the essential problem that we should be dealing •.IIi th in this legislature is the problem of marriage !:::reak-up in the first place, the problem of the financial hardship that we have in this Provincef I was talking to somebody involved with f~ily courts and ~e tells me that two of the major causes of divorce in this Province are financial problems and finances that lead to alcoholism and drinking and the problems associated. hOere one stops and t.'1.e other one leaves off,! do not knew.

But I do know that it is no good for us to just bring in a piece of legislation and expect that legislation to cure the problems. We have to provide some concerns as we have talked about here . We would like to have a :najor debate in this House on the concerns of the cost of living, the high cost of electricity, the number of divorces, the number of hardships, the number of broken homes t.'1at ·11e are going to cause by this callous approach of just letting the prices reach t.~e world levels anC the survival of the strongest.

And if we can suriive long enough, ,llr. speaker, we are going to be like the Arabs, '.-<e are going to take our Z589

November 13,1979 Tape No. 1033 AH¥,2 MR. STIRLING: pound of flesh. That kind of ~~inking is what causes the root foundation, the root problems, the root causes of many of our divorces, of many of our hardships, of much of the wife beating, the child beating. Much of t.~e drinking and the alcoholism is to get away from the problems , the financial problems. So it is not enough, Mr. Speaker, just to Cring in a piece of legislation that says, •As of this date it is fifty/fifty," because the next practical step takes you back to the overloaded courts.

The minister knows that I know of problems, of real hardship, of real cases. It see~~ to me ~~at we need to go a step in the direction of providing additional funds for scme~~ing that the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey} touched on,pre­ marital counselling of all types, of letting somebody know what the facts of life are from an economic point of view, letting somebody know what kind of an obligaticn they are taking on, what the chances are of a job .. My colleague quoted that two ~~irds of the women in Newfoundland that are married are married at either age twenty or under.

This is going to require, unC:er the act, that if they have a contract it must go to the court to get it approved. This court ~~at is already years behind is no~ going to interfere in ~'1e ordinary marriage arrangement of twc-~l;±rds of the people in Newfoundland, the yoWlg people. ! t.~ink, !4r.

Speaker, and I am sure that my good frienC from HUII".ber East 0-!s Verge) will agree, t..~at this Legislature Coes not ;;rovide anywhere in the way of enough funds for people in various crisis centers, sel!-help type programmes, various approaches of the Status of Women, to give people coWlselling before a marriage breaks up.

I think that, for example,we should provide wi~~ this act funds t.~at churches could apply for, churches or other organizations that want to get specialists who will be able to counsel people because too many people in Newfoundland today are just going from one pay day to ~~e next pay day· <!590

November 13, 1979 Tape 1034 PK - 1 Mr. Stirling: As costs and finances and everything are going sky-high, they have no idea of where they can turn for help ar~ guidance and counselling. And there have been many attempts on a volunteer basis, many legitimate attempts where women have banded tcgether 1 volunteers working in the eveninss, to let women know where they can go to get helpJto actually find a place where they can get some comfort and assurance 1 that they do not have to put up with unlivable conditions at home.

But how much of that could be helped if there was money available, money available for professionals or for churches who could counsel and advise and help people get the kind of direction that might keep a marriage together or to let tha~ see that the problems are coming up in debt. We have a horrible situation where people are well over their capacity to ever get out of debt.

And I go back to the point that many of the divorces in Newfoundland are caused by a combination of financial and alcohol problems and one •..;arks on the other. ~here is nothing in this Act that is going to help that situation and that is why I ·..mnder if it has gone far enough? Nhen we start applying this Act surely we need a separate device. I would ask the minister if he would consider setting up some kind of funding, maybe the establis~~ent of a division of The Family Court or an extension of the court 1 generally, to be able to handle some of the problems that we knew.

When I asked a question the minister first got up and explained that the first step is that you have to go to court, and the court is already years behind. Some of my other colleagues have pointed out some of the other •.reaknesses, as have me:'t".be::s opposite, and I hope they will continue to do that because it is not only the government's job to bring in this piece of legislation, it is the job of this Legislature to ~ake sure that we are providing the best overall legislation, not a for and against kind of situation.

And as £ar as the right to opt cut of this - I am disappointed chat the :ninister had to leave as we are in the ;niddle of this dicussion, both :ninisters, t!"!e ~linister of Justice !Mr. !Jttenheinerl and the champion of the Bill, the :1inist:er of Education C:>J:s. Verge). But r:'!aybe the approach tl"!at we have taken to t:tis Act is !."eally the opposite 2591.

November 13 1 1979 Tape 1034 ?K - 2 Mr. Stirlinq: to the one that we should be taking. Instead of saying this is an agreement between every couple in Newfoundland and you can opt out of it - in those cases that the Minister of Education (l.Js. Verge) is concerned about, she knows and ! know thatin many of those cases one partner is so desperate to get out of a marriage agreement, is so despe~ate to get out of it, so desperate to get a separation or a divorce, that they will agree to anything.

Now1 in that kind of atnosphere,what is to prevent the person who we are trying to help being victimized by this bUlly that they are so concerned about, what is to prevent that person from saying, Okay, I will let you out of the marriage, I will go live somewhere else, we will get a divorce, however 1 before we do I want you to sign this agreement getting us aut of this matrimonial act. And under that kind of pressure, Hr. Speaker, I have talked to a number of people in that situation, they will agree to anything to get out of that unlivable n-arriage. And so, Mr. Speaker, we may be providing

an Act which is only a paper Act because the few people who are now taking advantage in this area can still take advantage in this area. And I just 2592

~toverber 13, 1979 Tape no. 1035 D';.! - 1 'm. L. STIPLING: wonder if tl-tis Act should not be ~de on application for ei~~er one of the spouses. In other words, if they are about to break up regardless of ~1-te agreement, to say, 'Okay, I want ~>tis Act to apply/if we really are interested in protecting the peonle that the minister says we are interested in protecting.' So in sur:tnary, !tr. speaker, it is r:ry telief the.t this Act does not go far enough, it is trY belief that this Act needs in it some ~ney, some ~ney first of all to help people before ~1-tey get married 1 to know ~hat ~~ey are getting into.

Secondly, to provide churches or other women's organizations the funds to assist people get out of a marriage if they want to get out of a marriage. That t>te must provide funds to provide a separate mechanism not delayed by the years in court to have this Act implemented. And that I ~~ink, we should provide funds, ~·lr.

Speaker, to help marriages- that now have the problems of finances and alcoholism anC all of the related kinds of problems. !1.nd I would like to see in this House a rr".ajor debate on the reaJ fundamental causes and problems of many of the break-ups and that is that ~he cost of living in this ?rovince is just too high for the average citizen to live ·,;it:h, Thank you, t1r. Speaker. SOME ECN. '-E::SER.S : :!ear, hear: :1R. SPE;.KER: (S!.'-'!1S) The hen. the ~inister of TOurism. !·?. C. ?OV."ER: Thank you, !-lr. Speaker. >!r.

Speal.::er, I Co r.ot think it would ~e nr~per, if I, the rre~ber for the district: of ~C=rJlanC, were to let ~~is opportunity pass by to pass ca~ents on, af t.he ~st: ir.portant piece.s of legislation <:.~at is to - i\!•! HC';. :-'E:-!3F?.: (Inaudible) r:'.arricC. (inauCi:::::lc) "?.

C. ?Ct-2?.: of :erryland and there are also sorr:e wo1:1en of same verJ great stature >:.istorically ani! cul turally 1 in our district · .. :~o, I th.ink ,C.escrve to :tavc t!'.eir ;c'.: anc! t.:-.is 'Jill ··il'.ich is going to ::e of ~ajar irpor-<::.ancc t!J t!1cr and also of r.1ajor i:::port.1.ncc, I ~~ink, tc al} 7'arried ?ersons anc' pcrscn::; 'Jho con~em[}latc 2593

~loverrber 13, 1979 Tape ~:o. 1035 :m. c. ?Cf7ER: A couole of corr.:nents- the rnef:'.ber for Eonavista North 01r. St.irlinc;) alrrost talks sa senzibly sometimes I alrrost think he is a '!'cry at tir..es. And ! have to agree with rr.any of his corr.nents with regard to t~e actual workings of ~~e Bill~ that ~~ere is great concern amongst ourselves and amongst !:!any persons in ~:he Province whether this !?ieee of legislation will actually be workable.

I Co not suppose there is any part of thl:!' worlC where it is more difficult to change the cultural and historical set-up of ~arriage than it rr.ight be in Newfoundland where M~ have been so traditional; Hhere !:;;ecause of oui statures as a people and because of our position, our geographic isolation, sometimes, our society has developed in a way that it is not always in keeping wi t.l-;. :iorth r.r.:erican society or even world society. He have developed in ~lewfaundland a type of people who are, I suppose, thankfUlly, quite unique. Our marriage system is also quite unique.

I think it is ir.partant for us to realize 1 and one of the reasons I want to corr.!",ent on the Eill 1 is because the premise of the Bill itself, I t.\o;.ink, is based upon a certain anount of equality •,.;hich must exist between,not only husbands and wives 1 ·but between all merr.bers a f any given society ·...,here ci\,.ilization is deemed to l::e, I suypose, in ·vogue. But t...~e equality of marriage has not always been what we, ! suppose, neant it to be in a christian setting. '!'he rr.cm.ber for Terra ~!ova (!lr.

Lush) mentioned earlier em that he 'daS w'Ondering if ·,.,.re \·:ere .. ~ .... ;1~~: ..... ':his Eil1, if we were not getting into something ~re quickly than we possibly should. ~y onl7 thought in t...~at regard is that t.~e !ill is probably hundreds of 7ears too late,=hat the wcmen .:::. f ot•r society for so long have t-een looked Upon as Ceing nan-e.:1ti ties sometimes, that now for 0ncc, at least, in a certain, given gradual procression t.~at they are now being recognizee as being truly equal partners in a :r.arriage. i\nd! think 'partners' is ':he irr.portant.word because for too lor.q t'he :nm of t.~e warld,maybe,~no earneC nest of t~e money in any givP.n family situation 3.hmys assur.~ed 1 because they earned rrore 1 ::hat, t..'1erefore, their position was more important.

I, for one, have never agreed ·..:ith t.'1at contention and I Co not now.! :io :Oelieve that the ·.rife • . .ffio stays home and rears children, ·.:ho -:lees :.ousekeepi...'1g chores and, what have you 1 is equall7 ilS iT"portant as !_in r:t'! case, '"ho goes out to • .• ;ark each :-10rning and trings ho!"e a ::::ertain at"ount of roncy at the end of every couple of •,.;ceks. I t.'-:ink that that i3 a systeJ:l', it is an 25S4

t:ovember t3 • 1979 Ttli?C No. 1035 t'W - 3 ~!R. C. pot~"ER: attitude that is prevalent in ;r~wfoundland society, part:.iclarly so and possibly in all Harth i\.rnerican or all industrialized societies 1 but in ~~ewfoundland, particularly so, where we are so historically tied in with the man being the breaCwinner and the woman being sort of a secondary ~ype of !iousekeeper w:.o did not have t}J.e sare inportancc ~;:i ::hin the r:-.arriage systern.

I just want to say1 that:. far ill"/ position, that r am glad to see that t.'1is Act, if not..'l.ing else, t::ys to establish a ~<ewfounCland law, a simple fact of reality, <:.hat men and women when r:~arried t:ecot:"e e91al 9artners of ~~at marriage. ~nd t..'l.at is ~595

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1036 so - l XR. C. ?OWER: ~,e way it was ~eant to be and that is ~"J.e only way that they are workable. I also have to say b.at ~,e premise of this act is not particularly one that is designed around break-up of marriage, I think this act,in its very real, I suppose, in the philosophy of i~ says, in fact, ~,at we believe ~,at marriage is a basis of our society and therein, I really agree almost heart to heart with the member for aonavista North (Mr. L.

Stirling} when he says ~,at the social problems that are causing the breakdown of marriage also have got to be dealt with, naybe not in this act, maybe not in the House of Assembly but the problems of marriage breakdown and ~"J.e problems of the cast of living that, I suppose, lead directly to alcoholism and o~~er problems within a marriage, wife beating, =hild beating and all the ather abuses that may take place, t.'1at those things becor.:le socially acceptable, culturally acceptable and once that happensrthen you are going to finU t.,at t.~e basic unit of our society, which is a family, is in very deep trcuCl~.

And I just only hope and pray that this act firmly implants in everyone's mind in ~~ewfoundland. ~'1at marriage is a partnership, that there are ~~persons there who have equal rights, ~~t they are recognized by law as being equal, not where one person as all the say and the o t:her person may or may not get cue of the marriage wit~ some kind of, I suppose, materialist!c goods at a break-up. But I want to say that at least my concept of this act is ~,at it is based prL~arily on ~,e idea of a Christian marriage as being ~~e basis of our society.

I ·..-ould just li.'<.e to say ~~at, I suppose, ~~e most important aspect of a marriage is the children, th~t man and wcrr.an may very well marry but it is ~~e children of t..1.ose marriages ·.;hich very often do not have t:..,e real, ! suppose, effect-s of power, tl1ey do not have control over their own destiny scL;etines and .it is t.'1ose persons in a marriage ·.;!'.a have to be ~rotected to a mu~~ greater degree. Hence, I agree fully with scme of the persons who say that children jave qat to be protected.

And the :r:ember for Bonavist.a ~lore.~, for instance, talks about cont.ractir:.g cu~, ·..;hen one or t:.;H-' other persons in a ~arriage are allowed to contract o~t of this legislation.Again, it is very difficult to enforce a law on person;;;, 2596

::ovember 13, 1979 Tape No. 1036 so - 2 XR. C. POW'"ER: ":'he idea of t:he act is, if nothing else, to appreciate the fact that \or'Oitlen have a certain human right. I think if you were to remove that aspect of contracting out of a marriage then you also t4ke ouc of account ~~e fact that men also have a h~~n right 1 t.hat as adults they should be allowed to contract out and no goverr~ent should become so domineering and so totally in charge of a persan 1 s life ~~at tb~y do not have some control over ~~eir own destiny. I just want to say in cOnclusion, Hr.

Speaker, that I, certainly as th.e member far Ferryland, am totally in favour of this bill. I fully support the concept that women must become equal partners in a marriage. I fully support the cor£ept that children must be protected and I also ~~uld like to reiterate by a co~ment that I believe ~~e philosophy of the bill is one that says, that ~~e christian marriage is the basic foundation of our society,and that we have got to do everything '"'e can as .government, and individuals,to protect that basic system of our society. Thank you Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER; Isle. MR. E.

ROBERTS: Hon. :nember for ~~e Strait of Bell .~. Speaker, let me begin by saying that I listened with a great deal of interest and in a large measure of agreement co t..''1.e han. gentleman !rem Ferryland, t.he :>tinister of Tour ism (Hr. C. ?o..,·er).

I do not want to disa<;;ree in any major way with anything he said, except I would point out and l think.pernaps, '.lpon reflections he will agree wi~~ me that one joes not speak in ~~is debate or in any debace, in a sense, as a menber fer a dis- trict~ \ie stand here as members elected by :;:oecple grouped for convenience of electing Us 1 in the districts, but we stand i1ere as l.:=gislat:.ors for ~'1.e province.. I do not raise that poi:lt to quibble with my friend from Ferryland, ~e and I have had our quitbles.

In fact, as :te "ill be t:.'1e !:i.rst to testify, it was not my doing that he is a mep~r of the House, but he got here fair and square, in :ac~ he got here really_ under much ~ore diff!cul~ circumstances than ~ici ~any of us and t:..'l.a c J..S :auch :.a his crecii t. 2597

November 13, 1979 Tape No. 1036 RA - 3 :1.R. E. ROBERTS: This particular Cill, Mr. Speaker, The :1acrimonial Property Act, I guess is the

short title of it:, really is one. to •,o~hich we should address ourselves as members of the House, as legislators, as one of the fifty fifty-one. ~nen oy friend, .'1r. :Jerek Hancock, who will shortly be the member for St. Marf 1 S - The Capes,is sworn in in a day or two ~~ere will be fif~]-one of us, then, on t:.h.e nineteenth or t:N'entieth, the fifty-second member will be elected again, doubtless 3.nother friend of ours, I would hope, believe. ~1r. Speaker, this bill, as most han. m~~bers who have spoken have noted, is really 2598

November 13, 1979 Tape 1037 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: one of the more fundamental pieces of legislation that could come before this House in this session, or indeed, has come before this House in quite a number of past sessions. I think it is much to the Premier 1 s credit and I am glad to see he is back with us again, it is much to the Premier's credit that this bill has co-me in, and it is entirely appropriate that the bill is designated as number one on the Order Paper. It is certainly the most important piece of legislation that we, in this House, are-being asked to consider in this session.

Now I have had a chance to review some of the speeches made by hen. members opposite and by hen. members on th.is side with respect to the bill. I note with some interest, Mr. Speaker, that I am quoted in Hansard on November 8th, page 2426. I think that is much to th.e credit of Hansard since I was several thousand miles from Newfoundland on that date. I do not know whether t.'le editors of Hansard attribute to me anything that is said by anybody on this side if it is good or bad.

But I read the debate, and r am not going to repeat what has been said because I think there were some first-class speeches made by members on both sides, In particular, I think, the speech made by the learned gentleman, the Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheimer) was a first-class speech. He is wrong in law, I ~ink, on one point, his reading of the Intestate Succession Act.

I asked one of the Clerks, Your Honour, to get me a copy of it, but I would suggest to the hen. gentleman if he has a look at the Intestate Succession Act, as I recall it- and when I get it ! will point aut the sec~on to him- it does not coincide with what he said on page 2424 of Hansard. The hen. gentleman is quoted as saying that if a :nan or either spouse dies . ..,.ithout a Will, $30,000 goes to t.~e surviving spouse and all the rest, whe~~er ic is ~1 or $100,000, goes according co ~~e pattern of intestate succession. ! t.Ur.k that applies to spouses and no issue. ;.tR. MARSHALl.!,: notes.

Z599 It is stated in the explanatory

November 13, 1979 Tape 1037 MB - 2 MR. ROBERTS: The explanatory notes? Well, I prefer to look at the Intestat.e Succession Act, I would say to my friend from St. John's East. The amendment is consequentia1 1 I agree 1 but the fact remains the explanatory note is correct. The Intesta~ Succession Act is correctly referred to in the explanatory note, it was not in the speech of my friend, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) • I do not say that again in any critical sense. I happened to have occasion to look at the act this morn~g, that is the only reason that I am particularly up to date on that point. :t.

Speaker, I think every han. member who has spoken has welcomed this act, and I would simply like to say that I too welcome it and I too intend to vote for it. We. as a caucus have come to that con­ clusion and it is one t.'lat I whole-heartedly and enthusiastically endorse. There is no doubt that it is a reform whose time has come. I am not sure t.'lat my friend from Ferryland (Mr. Power) was entirely correct when he said it is one ~'lat is terribly long overdue. This is a fairly new idea, the first of these acts in Canada came in possibly three, or four or five years ago.

I believe that, frOm memory, Alberta, British Columbia, 5aska~chewan and Ontario have adop~ed legislation si..milar :.0 t.'1.is, there are some variations bu~ the first of these acts is only four or five years old. It is hardly

an act that is long overdue, it is an ac~ whose time has come, and I think it is, generally speaking, a good bill. I quite like the idea of equality. I agree wit.'l t.'le ot.'ler hen. :~embers who spoke and who have made a point, and I will simply make it again and leave it as that - t..'1.at a marriage is a partnership and it:. is completely ·~rrelevant whether one partner or both goes ou~ into tile market place and earns money, and whether one or the other stays home and looks after children, or indeed contributes to ~'le marriage in some other way. That is really- Z600

November 13, 1979 Tape 1037 MB - 3 SOME HON'. MEMBER: (Inaudible) !<J.R. roBERTS: I thank my friend. I do not_ need. to look at the act, I think my version of it was borne out correctly and the learned genUeman from St. John 1 s East quite correctly pointed out the explanatory note does set the matter straight.. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), I am sure, simply overlooked the point in quite a long and quite a thorough and quit:.e an excellent speech. But, Mr.

Speaker, the principle of equality, of assets acquired during the marriage, I think, is one that cannot be questioned, and indeed, I do not t..Unk anybody in Newfoundland questions it, I do not t..i.ink anybody anywhere in this Province, or for that matter, anybody in this count:.cy would question it. What more do we need to say? Equality of assets acquired during the marriage, that I think is something that should be adopted into law. This bill does adopt it in to law, and accordingly I t..'link we should support the bill and I think W"e should adopt it. I have no doubts the House will do that. Z601.

November l3, l9i9 Tape ~'lo. 1038 GH-1 1-IR. ROBERTS: ~1r. Speaker, there are one or two o~her points ~~ough I think ~~at are worw~ bri~ging before the Hause. They may be - in fact, one or two of them, I think, probably are - fairly small, but I think they are related to the principle of the bill before the House, and so I believe they are in order at second reading. Before ! go into that, though, I want to commen~ very strongly on a point made by my friend from Bonavista North (H:r. Stirling), when he spoke of the - AN HON. MEMBER: !1R. ROBERTS: Never call (inaudibl0) l~arned.

Well, my friend from Bonavista North qualifies as learned but not in the archaic sense in ·Nhich we use this ter.m in the Hause. We do not have any gallant mew~ers here ~~at I know of at present. ! do not know if the han. gentleman from Pleasantville (Hr. Dinn} is gallant, he did serve in Her Majesty's forces, doubtless •.;ith distinction, but I do nat think he did so in the face of ~he enemy. The only powder he smelled might have ~een in a boudoir or somewhere, but, Mr. Speaker, do not think we have any gallant - M..tt. DHIN: !1R. ROBERTS: 'lou are out of order.

The hen. ;ent:leman can objec~ if he •,.;ishes. -r could lead evidence, possibly, or.e way or another if it suits him. But, Mr. Speaker - MR. STAGG: Go ahead and state your terms. !-1R. ROBERTS: Well, the hon. member for Stephemrille (Mr. Stagg) agrees it is a highlight from his position, so almos~ anything is a highlight ~~ese days. :1r. Speaker, t.'1.e paint :t'.ade by my friend from Bonavista )lorth is one <4hich I think ought ::o be given a great deal of -;::onsideration.

This act - I vem:ure to predict. ~at if I were 'Hearing my professional hat along ·..,i~h :ny learned friend £::em Stephen­ ville and :ny learned friend from St. ;ohn's East (!-1r. :.!arshalll and my learned f.riend :rem :·!t. Scio fMr. J. Carter) and :rom \ofat:.erford- Kenmount (Nr. Cttenheimer j, each of whom is temporarily out cf the ac~ive pract:.~ce of law, ~ay some day return to ~~. may some 1ay 0ot, 2602

November 13, 19i9 Tape No. 1038 GH-2 !1R. ROBERTS: any other lawyers who are ~embers of the House - this act will create - it is going to be the greatest bonanza for lawyers, I guess, since the Inccme Tax Act, Every person in Newfoundland and Labrador who is {

a) married, and (bl owns property, will be af=ected by ~~is particular legislation and will be well advised, I would suggest, to consult his/her solicitor at the earliest opportunity to review the matter of property in the light of this act. It will also, I venture to predict, lead to a great deal of litigation in the courts. There are a number of provisions in the act wh~ch are going to generate ver1 significant law cases. There is one lovely one in

Section 2. {1) (a} (ii), "a person whom the parent has demonstrated a settled intention to treat as a child of his or her family", shall be regarded as a child of the marriage for the purpose of this act, that is ~orthy at least of the Supreme Court of Canada. It is a new phrase, it may or rt".ay not have been tested in the law. ' do not pretend to knew that, but the fact remains it is going to lead to a great deal of litigation. Our courts are already overcrowded.

Pmybody who pr.3.ctises at t.he bar in any capacity ·,.;ill agree that our courts in ~~is ?rovince are seriously overcrowded. >1e are two or three years away :rem trial in District Court of matters set down for trial. The Supreme Court is six to eight months behind on matters set down today for trial. I venture to say the Supreme Court, at earliest, would be able to grant a trial date for late this coming Spring or, more likely, early next Fall.

I think that it is entirely right and proper that t~e government should provide extra facilities for the courts, extra courts and should ask~~~ Government of Canada or the ?arliament of Canada to ;;reate the extra judges who are needed or, ::..ndeed, ves1: this mat~er in ::he provincial courts, as ar;posed to the Supreme court, the high court, t.~e Unified ?amily Court. tie ~ave only one judge in the Unified F~~ily Cour~, His :Ordship, ~r. Justice Fagan. Qnly starting off now, the court is, I guess, cnl7 now nearing its :':i:=-st ::ases.

It is obviously going to be a very ?aluable ::ourt, a 'le-.:y ::..;::por-::ant part o-f: the judicial system, but it will be heavily 2603

Novell"..ber l3, 1979 Tape No. 1038 GH-3 !1?.. ROBERTS: of problem. I say, Mr. Speaker, and I just want to reinforce what my friend from Bonavista North {Hr. Stirling) said, that if we provide the legislative remedies without making available at the same time the judicial means to enforce those remedies, then we are not =arrJing out a reform that is worth doing. We cannot half-do the job. The Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) should take whatever steps are necessarJ to ensure that additional court facilities, staff and space are made available and additional judges 'l' suppose we have to ask the ?arli~~ent of Canada, they create the judges, or, in fact, we could vest this in the provincial court judges, if 'Ne wish. 3ut until additional judges are made available, the judges now then, I venture to say, ·;~ill not be able to shoulder this additional load in addition to their present .,.,orkload.

In fact, I believe the Law Society has already waited upon the Minister of ~ustice or, if not, they have said they intend to, to ask fer additional courts. But that is a point, ~r. Spea~er, Z604

Nove.'ltber 13, 1979 Tape No. 1039 IB-1 MR. ?OBERTS: ·,.,thich is certainly, I think, well worthy of note and 'r believe commends itself for action, t-~.r. Speaker, I want to go on as •.vcll to talk about what I believe is the most important part of this legislation, and that is not the equality concept. The most important feature of this legislation is that we are going to allow in this Province and make lawful, make •Jalid, contracts between parties married to each other when those contracts deal with the dissolution of the marriage.

If I understand the law correctly, at present such a contract is unlawful. ~,.,tO parties who are married or who enter into a marriage cannot make a contract contemplating the dissolution of that marriage 1 ~,e courts have ruled them void on grounds of public policy. So we are now going to change that and that is a very fundamental change in the common law.

It is one which I think we should welcome but it should be noted that we are doing it. ~~d then we are going further and saying that in the event - I think we can describe this bill simply by saying that in the event that the two par":.ies to a marriage do not enter into a ccntract 1 to settle out their rights as between each other, then we ~~e Legislature not the government, the Legislature, are making a contract that says,< Here are the rules. 3ut we are allowing - and ~ commend the gove~~ent for changing the

section of the Act, the previous draft Act, which said, the parties to a marriage could not contract out of the matrimonial heme. We are now allowing the matrL~onial heme to be contracted out of_, anC I think that is fair. If tw'O parties prefer to settle thei.!:" affairs so that they involve the distribution of the matrimonial hoiTe as 'dell as the other matrL'llonial assets, then I think that is something we should allow. !<1r.

Speaker, there are scme features in the Act ·..,Tiich, in :ny opinion, ought t:o be considered fun:her - and I · ... vuld hope ! could get the attention of c:he ~1inister of Justice {:-1r. Ot::enheimer). ! am quit:e SU!:"e that his cOlleague has an important paint l:.:ut I ..,.,.,culd ask if !..t could wait ~ecause I know the ~inister of Justice has put a great 2605

Novernber 13, 1979 Tape tlo. 1039 IB-2 HR. ROBERTS: deal of time into this bill and I •,,,auld si.'nply ask him to consider some points ·Nhich I think 3.re ;..'Orth looking at further. Mr. Speaker, I have already mentioned

section 2 (1) {a) (ii} of t.'le bill. T invite the minister to conside~ it further. That is the one that says 'A child in this act shall include a person whom the parent has demonstrated a settled intention tc treat as a child of his or her family~ I do not find that offensive in principle but I do say that those words are going to be subject to a great deal of

interpretation. And I have never been one of those who thinks that we should adopt legislation and leave it to the courts to spell it out. I think our job as a Legislature ought to be to spell out as precisely as we can. These words are new. I do not think they crop up anywhere else.

And I would point out that under our adoption Act it is quite easy to adopt a child assuming that child is, when I say iz lawfully available for adoption, I mean, assuming the child can be adopted within cur law, I would suggest to the i:l.inister t:hat if he wants to embody the concept - the concept may not be a bad one - tut if he ·.;ants to embody the concept perhaps he could provide for some fc~ of declaration or something so that if I choose to ~egard a certain person - in other '.o.urds, what I am sayir.g is spell out what settled intention isJnot leave it to the courts, not leave it to the vagaries of an individual judge applying his mind as best he can and coming to a body of case law.

I think •,o~e should spell it out. There should :::e :10 reason why t!"!ere cannot simply be any :arm of declaration saying, You ic...,ow I regard John Jones as being a child of mine. And !.t ·...-auld take tha~ kind of thing to bring the relationship within the ~it of the Act. We ar~ talkinq about something very 3erious.

Section 4 - and ! am glad the minister has plugged the corporation loophole, 2 ~hink that was essential. !~ ·...rould have made a :nockery of this _;ct, to allow a ;natri:ncnial heme to :::e owned by a corporation, the shares of ".vhich '..Jere held by one part:y to che marriage and ~hen that 9arty of the marriage say, well,~hete is 2606

November l3, 1979 Tape No. 1039 IB-3 !>!R. ROBERTS: no macrimcnial heme. That ;...'Ould make a mockery of the ·.-~hole .;ct. It is the sort of thing that clever solicitors ~~uld doubtless be doing and i!' it 'Here lawful, I suppose, they should do it. But I am glad that tr~t loophole is closed. But we come down to subsection 4 of

section 4~ 'Where a dwell~ng has up to ~~ree apar~ents'. Now, I understand that that is to cover the basement apartment situation. Three? It could have been tw~, it could have been =our. 3ut I .would suggest two is a better guess or perhaps one because three, I ;...~uld suggest, is getting into a corr~ercial asset and the commercial asset is differently ~e~~rded and ought to be differently regarded, in my opinion. I simply make the point I am no't. sure there could be any !'irm I mean, you just have to pick a nur.£er. But three see~$ to me to ~ake it beyond che ambit of a basement apar~~ent. where a house has 2607 Now_! can see it

:-:over.ber lJ, 1..?79 Tape ~:a. 1..'!40 Dh" - 1 a baser..ent ilp<!.rtt".ent anC, I sur,::;Dse, is consiC.ered two apartments, you know, tl:e cwuers ':.":J.O live upstairs a..r.d t;;e tenants L'1. t:1e Lase:::ent apar"t.."t:ent::. I sirr:ply brL"lg bat t.o the 7inister's at;:ention.

Section !:i ve, 'tr. Speaker, 'd!:icl: got:s i:;.to t!"le r.at:rir-.onial hor..e, and ! think I can state '~/Br"J simply here that I have a difference in principle, ! Co not tb.ink it vitiates be J\ct but ! thi:-.k ~~at it certainly is a point of ?rinciple ~~at ought to be stated.

I still see no reason why a natrinonial home acquired prior to marriage ought to be treated as a :natrinonial asset. \•Je have set Gown all other l'!'atri;nonial assets as being t.'1ose things, to use that • ... -ord very l:roadly, '""hich are acquired during marriage. ! think I can understand what is behir.d the :::atri;.,:::.nial horne but I am still not so sure that t!1.at validates: t.'le principle. : t:.'link t_\;.at you ::tight be able to leave it, Hr. Speaker, to the courts. The courts ha•;e t!"le pct-rer to change -=.::e ::i'!:ty/fifty settlerr>.ent a."ld. 1 ·will corr,e ':here.

Hhat haps;ens if, for exar.,ple, a !!'an. !:as a million dollar :-.cuse or a worr;an, for that matter, has a million dollar house when ::e cr she gets married; t-he ot:."'"!er ,t:arty ta.•ws off after t!"lree or four mont!"ls and sa7s, •::ell, ! do ~at want to be in this ~ar:riage an':}"'nJre I have found sor;etody else or what t:.'le ~·•ords are, 1 and i:as 'there!:;y ac;ui:red a ::ifty/fifty intere:>t in t:.'1at :-.ot:'B? I know t:.'1at t.'le court bas a . power now - (Ina.udiJJle) '!?.. :_::. ?OBS?'!'S: In

section :o, Zut I will ccne to

section 20 'jecause it talks about, 'grossly '...l.r'.conscionable'. J'.nr! those, :-!r. Speaker, ,_"" t.~e lat.: of t..l-tis Provi:1ce and in the law of t..'1.is col!nt::::y. I C.o not f:now ::ow stronqly t..1.e gover:;.rnent :eels on t:-,is point of :nat.rir.nnial hcrr.es :1cqt:.ired !::efore :;;arriage but ! w-oulC. s.!.r::ply say ':::.0 t.te :::i!1iSter that I t.hir-~': t!l.is should ::e leaked a~ again. ! t.'"l.in.k. t!l.at '<>'here a rmn an.C. a wct:".an get :;;arried - i:1. -:::y 'Jie·,.,·, is t.:,eir's to Co ·,.;ith as t.'1ey wish. :.;hat ':!iey acqui-re Curir:t; ':his Jill. ZS08

:iovember 13, 19i9 <t-ape no. 1040 DW - 2 J.lR. :; • P.OBERTS: And, ! would suggest, :.:r. Speaiter, that t.l<tis is somet:Jting the government ought to exarr.ine :'u=ther. This is a Hea'cncss L~ ~,e Bill, I ~~ink it a case where ideolaqy has taken ~,e place of cownon sense. \Jr. Speaker, along those sar:e lines, r:.cw let t:'1C skip over to

Section ;,.;. (1) (b) (vii) which talks al::aut r.atrimcnial assets including real and personal propertt acquired after separation. t:ow this is a new concept added ~d ! see no justification for it. Separation is a definite state in fact ar:d in la'''• not necessarily !:cath. I rr.e'an any given series of events may be a separation in fact or in law but they are t~th Cefinite and precise, the ninister will agree. I!: a :can and a ~>:ornan as t-.:o s;ouses separate from cac~ ot..."lcr, ~:r.

Speaker, I do not see _why propert.ies or itens acquired after separation ::;ught to be considered to be joint ;?rOJ;ert:;. :1R. E. RCBERTS: It is nat (inaudible) with t~e exception {inaudible). ! am sorr!.

Then I have ~is read the - then I do apologize <;.o t!:e ~i ... lister I have misread it !lilC r' congratulate hir:1 tec<l.usc I think t.,at is a key - that once t..~e separation occurs t..tse :;-oa::-riage Day legally exist, it ~ay, L~ fact, re-exist if t..~e parties reconcile but :or pra~ical purposes bat :narriase, or at least for the pur;::-oses of t.."lis Sill, t!'.at :"'.arri.age is at i:tn cnC. ~·r. s;:eai:er, t-...~e ~c.t::-imcnial =-:orr-.c, again, and ! would refer to sub-section 2 of

section lE, 'Z\ ::1atrr.onial !-'.O>.J;; acquircC !:y ".or:':'ally i~ ·,;culd l::e ;;:·are-nt to child, tl:at. ·,..'CulC l::c che ncr:ral or t...'1c usual o!: one or :Cot:. o: tZ.e partie::; c::.raugh gi:'t, sett2.erent or inl:erit.ar.ce, eit.'ter t.".is _;ri:l.ciple, ~-:hic:::h I suggest i.::; i?eol:.:.:g-.t cominc '::e:fo:e realisr,, Z609

~l'ovember 13, 1979 Tape No. 1041 IB-1 '.ffi. ROBERTS: of the rnat=irnonia1 horne being treated differently from other assets of the marriage. I do not think it should be. ~. Speaker, 'llithout any difficulty I could - and I am not terribly insenious-but I could find, I will bet, five ways to void the practical effect of that provision. And the iCeolo;s who say, well the matrL~onial heme is where the family nest is. Mind you we could have 100 matrimonial homes under this legislation.

You can mortgage the nest up to the hilt and, in fact, anybody who gets married now, owning anything would be a fool if he or she either did not mortgage it up to the hilt and take the cash - and the cash is not considered to be a matrimonial asset unless it is acquired during marriage - or to enter into a marriage contract. As my friend from Grand Bank (!A.r. Thorns) says, you stand at the altar and just before ycu get into the 'I do' part the minister says, now, you ~~ow, there is the paper, please both o£ you sign ~efore either of you goes any further.

So I w~uld say to the minister that that whole principle - you knew it crops up again in

section 16, subsection {2} - is worth looki~g at. T have no personal interest in it. T have come ':.0 grips •,dth that. I think it is something that ought to be considered bo~cause I believe that the principle err.bcdied in t~e bill, or that portion of the ;?rinciple 1 is wrong. ill".a.t is acquired during marriage split equitably, fi.fty/fi.fty 1 subject to change l::y a :::curt. What is acquired outside the marriage, be£ore the marriage or by means of gift, settlement or inheritance, in t:'IY view, ought not to l::e =onsidered a rnatri:ncnial asset:: unless the parties dec:de to make it so.

And 1 ·,-auld suggest in the normal case that is •.,-hat: parties would decide to do, to throw it 3.11 in the pot. Sure. Nobody enters into a marriage ~hinking it is ever going to er:d other than !:y death . .Spbody does. r venture to predict that there will be very few marital contr~c~s entered into, I r:1ean1 unless people are ~uch ~ore cautious than they normally are of ';';:heir ~£fairs. You are no": going to get so!71e young :nan and sor:1e "fCUng Z6iO

!lovember 13, 1979 Tape No. 1041 IB-2 t-1P .• ROBERTS~ lady who have fallen in love with each other and want to spend their lives together, you are not going to have them saying in the ~idst of the moonlight and roses, 'Now dear 1 just before we go any further let us have a little chat about the !"louse ncw 1 and i£ 'de l::uy a ::ar who gets the car; and what about that diamond ring that I gave you: You know that just is not going to happen. ?eople who are accustomed to dealing ·with lawyers, who tend to be the wealthier people, are going to have marriage contracts, sure. ~ am not revealing any professional secrets '4hen ! say that the law firm of which I am - I am not a.n associate 1 I guess, I am a partner in i~, has had a number of our clients sort of raise the matter and ! will ret my learned friend from Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) has had a few of his clients say to him, You knew, what is this qoing to mean to :r.e,; And that is fair enough. But it is not going to apply to mos1: people. ".-lith :nest people this would only happen ·<~hen the inevitable, not when the inevitable happens, when the end comes, when a marriage breaks dc~n and that is when you get into the sort of problems that :ny friend £rom Bcnavista North (Hr. Stirling) was talking about. :1r. Speaker 1

section 20, I think, is badly conceived it is not nadly drafted, ! think it expresses the intention clearly- due to the ·..:ords, 'grossly unjust or t.:mccnscionable' ar.d these words have a precise :neaning 1 I v:culd subnit, in la...,. I would favour !:he •,;ord 'unreasonable' which has an equally precise: meaning in law. :-tr. Speaker, z have probably gene beyond my time but i.: the House -... 'Ould i:l:!.low a few extra minutes there are some other points ~ ·..:ould like to make. 3y leave. yr_p_. RCBERTS: I thank ::ry hon, friends en !::oth sides. AN HON. ME!-!BER: You have got al:-out fifteen t:'linutes.

Y' .. R. J, CARTER: Carry en for a f~ll hour. ;.m. ?..OSE:F.'!'S: 1 a."n sorry? (Inaudible) carry en for a full \:.our. :.1?.. ?..CEE?,TS: As :ny hen. friend f::om St. John's :1orth (Hr. J. Carter) ·..rill agree 1 am quite ::::apal::le of carrying on !:or another hour. I am Z611.

!loven-.ber 13., l9i9 Tape No. 1G41 IB-3 even quite capable of making sense which puts me apart =rom him. Hr. Speaker - MR. STAGG: You did sound {inaudible}. ! am, I am as my hen. friend fran Stephenville (fol.r. Stagg) knows better tl".an most. Hr. Speaker 1 the point I want to make with respect to

section 20i this is the

section 'Nhich gives the court, the Unified Facnily Court, the supreme Court, t.he power t=: alter the fifty/fifty split of matrimonial assets. The matrLT<onial assets are Casically everything acquired during marriage with some exceptions and they are set forth, I believe, in

section 16. 2612

'lovc::-.!:::er 13, 197Cl Tape ~:o. 1042 DH - 1 _'!Ft. ::- OOEE?.TS : Th~ r.1atrir::onial assets include the ~atrirnonial :,o::-.e ·-:hether acqui::ed before or after r.ar::iage,and I have already expressed an D?inion '4ith respect to that. And t..l-:.e general scheme is fifty-fifty l::ut tie ::curt has the :;:oHer to 'J-ary i~. ::n fact the court :-:as ar.othe:: power, ~l-:le court has a power,with which I •rery rr:uch agree,to order z;ossession of t.'"le ~atrir:-cnial home fer the benefit of children.

In fact ,it is net even res-::.ricted to that,Zut ::>ection 13 deals w·ith, inter alia, the c;:uesticn of children and ! agree with that. If a rr.an and a ;.roman decide to go their separate ·..:ay t.~ero should be PCI"-'E!r given to the court to allow ::.'"le children to have ~~eir ho~e even if the two adults, their parents, cannot ~ake any senOible or rational agreement. Eut

section 20 tal%:s al:out •grOssly unjust or unconscionable.' :1o...: I •..;auld say to t~e tr.inister that I think t!1at could lead to unfair and inec;:uitable situations. Eecause,you see,•_,;f'.en •_.:ill t!-,is came ClP? Well, it •,;ill come up when some lady or sorre gentleman goes to a la~trJer- a:cd at t~i:: stage ·;~e are talkir.g lawyers.

You do not r.eed la~trjcrs ::-o make ::>atri:::onial agreements but :rou certainly, I think at this sta?e will need a solicitor, a lawye::- and the 'NOrean says, ''\·Jell, now,;,.erl2 is what we 2ut <:cqet:te::: ov-er the years, it is only fift.y/=ifty.' 11-.r.d t:-,e la .... yer says, 'Gee, 70u k:<CH, :tau :-:ave r.ot got very ::ouc!:.. The guy has walker'! out on you after fifty of ~arriage 1 - ! did not read all of t~e horror that ~y f~iend ::'1e :::er.ber :or Hurr.ber Sas':: C-:s. 'Jerge) spoke of !:ut I am sure, you ;;.ncv.•, we ·will all run into them, By the way1 we should ::ecall, :-~r.

S;:realter, t!'le !'lard cases r::ake bad law. You J.:now, you car.not legislate to deal Hith spccifk har::!s!-.ip3, 'lOU have to deal .,..·ith the :;cneral principlfs.

Jut I suspect t.'1e h:::!r!Xlr cascs-~"e hav0 !lll run into t:-tc!:l, /Jell, let ne give you one that i::; different, r susFect than ~~y others that most peorle hnve heard, where a centlerr:an a:1d a .,.,-o~an livel'": toget:her Ty c!:oice,neithe:r of thel"1 ....,as :-'lar=-ief, :!.i•JcC together for a r-.urr.ber of years, ±out twenty yea::s, ElnC it was one of -::1esc situatior.s where :.!"'.e worr:an :1aC the ca=nin(J power and she eav.ed a great deal of r..oney and t:hc ::cuple ::ad a :::ore and the hone hnp?encC to h;-, i;-; the 2613

::aver.J::er l3, l9i9 Tape ~:a. 1042 C\'i - 2 ~'R. E. ?_CEEF.'?S; ;~a the home represented really everything that ~~at couple had acc~~ulateC during a ~eriod of fi=teen to twenty years 1 which is longer ~~an many marriages last. .~d the marriage came to an end in ~~e all too ccr.:::on •,:ay of the gentleman casting his eye elsewhere. And ~e· 'Nandere,"" l':or.e o:te nig;..t and said :.o the laCy, 'Out! Out of my house! She took legal advice; 3he has no clai~; she has no claim for anything, really.

The ~atter will =e tested I understand, in the courts·, t...J..,.ere are possibly some presumptions of advance~nt of resulting trusts, the sorts of things '::hat certainly t.~is Eill Hill al::alisl1. She r..ay or muy not be able· to get sor:v2:bi:~.s ·~ow let us supposing t!-lat lady had co!':e after this Act becor.::.es !At-· an t.he seco:td day of July cor.cing, 1980, and t...l-:e solicitor says, 'You have l:::een -:r'!!ater.:! =aCly, r:;y ~ear~ yotl l:nou 1 you ought to gat fi:'tj'/fif<:y.' And that the r.o.inister •,:ill agree,is surely the situation t!-:at sectior. 20 1 or one of the situations ~~at

section 20 is designed it may ~e an extreme eA~~le - Cut one of :he situations that

section 20 is designed to cope with. ~d I quite agree , :;: :hink ever-; Act in canada gi 'fGS a r.:!iscretion to the court. The ti'.inister, I t..>tink, knows what I a..'":! goir.g '::O say, you k::.cvr, :1e anticipates t..~e point 1a.'1ci! think it. is a sound poit'_t ar.d :1e is "-'Bll to anticipate it. That laCy '>>~"ill !1a•Je to -;o into court and convince the ]'Jdge that it is srossly unjust or •_mconscionabl~. ! C:;i.nk t:!l.a:: is a ver-r :.eavy :::u::-den to la? upon an a:;:plicant, a ;:etitioner, or a ;?lainti!:'::, '"hat-ever t.!1ey will !Je called •..;ten this t7:at::cr comes before a court.

I think tl":n.t is a <Jery hea·1y i~urden .! ·>"~ould ruther use t!1e · ... "'rd 'ur.reascnable' il!1d -:.hat qi •ms t~e cour-:: rr;uch ::::;reater discussion. r~et us leave aside the horror s::ories, ·,:ill ccr:tinue ;:;.fter this Act is in force. T!'.ere are a thcus-:::ll ~:aj'"> to cc=.c-:tt :.hi:; legislation i£ a n-an or a •,;or.ar, uants to set out to r"o it, a t!::ousanC .,.,.ays! A.."'ld ':!1at is just thinking cut loud, : vJill l':<:!t if :'l0t: :<!614

~lover.-ber 13, 1979 '!'ape ~!o. 1042 ~!?.. E, ?DBER'!'S: But. let's supposinq a man and a woman cor.e together, they r-:arr], they h?ve children, they -:arr! on for a nu.':'.ber of years and ~~en 1 for some reason or another, the ~~arriage comes to an end. It could be any one of a nt:rnbt'!r of t.'1ings~ it could l~e alcoholisr., it could be one of •::he parties finding unother partner, heavens alone knows! You know, what is it now? One marriage out of three now in Canada ends in di·;orce'? roes anybody have the fisure?!t is of the order, one out of three, one out a f four, Z615

~lovember l3, 1979 Tape }Io. 1043 GH-1 :1R. ?.CSERTS: and it is going up steadily. Sewfound- land is a little behind the rest of Canada in :he nunbers, ~ut it is catching up all the time. ~iR. STAGG: Two per cent. ~.R. ROBERTS: I a.-n sorry? :-rn. STAGG: T'No per cer,t ex::.sting. MR. ROBERTS: Two per cen::: of? 11JL STAGG: Existing marriages~ :1R. ROBERTS: Of existing marriages. But, you kr.cw, it is a far higher percentage Four per cent per year, and if the average marriage is 25 years 1 then 4 per cent per year cernes to 100,000.

Lt?;t me put it this way, the odds of a:1y given marriage breaking up are a lot greater than fifty to one; they are probably of the order of three or four to one. I think, you knew, my fr::..end from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg} 'NOUld agree 'Hith that. W"hat he is saying is t:hat in any given year, 2 per cent of t.!l.e marriages are dissolved. ~m. STAGG: Four t.housand over eleven years. !1R. ?.OBERTS: Yes, but the ;:ace is increasing significantly.

But be that as it may - :1..P.. 2TAGG: The more recent t.\;.e :t".arriage, t:.'1e ~igher that incidence. :·!R, RGEERTS: Well, 1 have seen some statistics 'Hhich indicate t!lat :nay not be the case, t.hat a lot of it are marriages of ten to fi.:teen years duration,. But be that as it :!lay, the fact retlai:ts •,.;e are not dealing with isolated examples, 'ile are ::iealing 'Nit:h a ver:-1 EJrac::ical, a very permanent and an ever- prese:J.t a.J.d a continually present 9roblem. So a man and a woman - the marriage ends.

It ~nds "'ssentially because one party •..;ant.s out, r.1aybe !:loth want out, but 'J.nless !:ot.h '..Jane in :::here is :10 e£::-e:cti•;e mar:oi.age, and :10 law ::bat this or 3.,'1Y other :..egislature can ever enact will ::;at:.e that ::~arriaqe last. It :nay r:1ake it last i:< law, but it '"'ill :;ot :nake i:: last in f. act or in ::eali ty. So, tf:.ey come to :li vide up t!"le assets, and they get a little blooCy minded by now. Any of us ·,;he have dcne any famil'f ~616

~iovember 13, 1979 Tape :.;o. 1043 GH-2 MR. ROBERTS: law work realize and I have not done very ouch - You know, I have not done as !:'!UCh as ;:;J.e member for Humber East (Hs. Ver