November 25, 1999 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 39

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we call the routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome to

the gallery today, on behalf of all members, forty students from two Grade 9

French Immersion Classes at the Mount Pearl Intermediate High School in the

District of Mount Pearl. They are accompanied by their teachers Mr. Ron Smith

and Mr. Shane Fitzgerald.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to provide a brief update regarding the development and

processing of the Voisey's Bay Nickel deposit.

In the summer of 1998, Inco indicated that they would prefer to have a mine

and mill only in Labrador and that they would prefer to have smelting and

refining done in some of their existing plants outside the Province. The

government clearly stated at that time that there could not be any operation in

the Province that did not include processing to achieve full and fair benefits

for Newfoundland and Labrador, and negotiations broke off at that time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Even though negotiations broke off at that time, Mr. Speaker,

two summers ago, informal discussions have been ongoing for several months to

determine whether or not Inco would commit to full processing and, therefore,

whether there was any basis to reactivate a full negotiation process. During

this past summer of 1999, Inco has indicated a clear interest in developing the

Voisey's Bay resource and I was requested by Cabinet to seek clarification as

to their intentions.

I can confirm several things. First of all, Inco is seeking to finalize a

proposal that entails full processing in this Province. They are preparing to

formally propose for the Province's consideration a twenty-five to thirty year

development plan in line with the recommendation of the Environmental Assessment

Review Panel.

Secondly, Inco is also preparing to formally propose for our consideration a

new, leading edge hydro metallurgical processing plant in Newfoundland and

Labrador that will be the first of its kind in the world. They are also

preparing to formally propose that the end product from the new processing plant

will be nickel metal, the same product that is achieved through the traditional

smelter/refinery technology.

Thirdly, Inco is hard at work on all aspects of a comprehensive proposal

covering the full gamut of mining, milling - which is the converting of ore to

concentrate - and processing that concentrate into nickel metal. We will

continue to meet with them as required and provide updates if and when progress

is made. Our next meeting is expected as early as next week.

However, I need to conclude with a couple of important reminders and cautions

for all of us. The government and Inco do not have a deal. We have not received

a formal comprehensive proposal from Inco. Until we receive such a proposal, we

cannot determine with certainty whether we have the basis to resume full formal

negotiations. In the meantime, we are more than willing to continue to work

towards a comprehensive package that delivers full and fair benefits for

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am thankful, finally, that the minister has provided an

update on the informal discussions that have been ongoing for several months, as

he has indicated. We, in this part of the House, and as a party, have said

consistently that the size and scope of the project is not necessarily the

question, that we are completely open to new technology. What is at stake, and

what is fundamental to this party and the Official Opposition, is that every

ounce of ore be processed fully -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: - in this Province to its final state. In other words, that

none of that, at any period of time, must be shipped out of the Province for

further refinement. What is also interesting when the minister talks about the

hydro metallurgic process - and Question Period obviously will provide an

opportunity to get into this in more detail - is that this is a new operation,

only one of its kind in existence. Obviously this operation proposed by Inco has

to be different than what is in Goro, New Caledonia, simply because of the

difference in the ore body. It is a new process that is being tested. Therefore,

the question asked is: Is this a pilot plant or a test plant? That is the

question that must be answered. If so, for how long will it be a pilot plant or

test plant? What, in the interim between a pilot and test plant, will take place

with the ore until a fuller process will be defined? Those are some of the

questions -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE: - that certainly we have, Mr. Speaker.

I will conclude by saying that those are just some of the questions that we

will have. We will await a successful conclusion, hopefully, that will see all

of the benefits promised to the people of the Province delivered to the people

of the Province, and once we see that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, by leave just for a moment?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: Once we see that, obviously both sides of the House will

have the opportunity to say yea or nay to this prospective proposal and this

obviously very important development.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are very pleased to hear that some process is being made on a go-forward

basis in terms of the development at Voisey's Bay in Labrador with Inco.

However, I note in this statement - and obviously the details will become

clearer as time goes on, but in the minister's statement and in any of the

discussions that have taken place over the last while in this Province, I have

not heard this minister or the government talk for one minute or one second

about the issue of royalties. We know, from representations made to the

Environmental Assessment Panel by Inco itself, that the return to the Government

of Newfoundland and Labrador, based on the existing royalty regimes, will

provide $417 million to this Province and $5 billion to the Government of

Canada.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: This is something that has to be brought forward and

discussed in a current situation where we have still in place in this Province a

ten-year tax holiday for profits for new mineral developments.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today, I will be tabling Operation ONLINE's Annual Report for the fiscal

period 1998-1999. This report was presented to me by Dr. Jack Botsford,

president and CEO of Operation ONLINE, at their annual general meeting in

August. I would like to welcome Dr. Botsford, who is joining us today in the

gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Operation ONLINE is a public/private partnership, which was

established to advance and promote Newfoundland and Labrador's rapidly growing

information technology industry. It is funded through the Canada/Newfoundland

Agreement on Economic Renewal.

This past year has been an exciting one for Operation ONLINE. My department

has worked closely with this board on a number of important projects aimed at

developing key areas within our IT sector.

One of these areas is human resources. Operation ONLINE, working in

partnership with Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Technology Industries

and Human Resources Development Canada, helped to implement the IT Graduate

Employment and Internship Program. This program addresses the industry's needs

for specialized skills training and to develop opportunities for new IT

graduates. Already, it has created 200 jobs for new graduates.

Operation ONLINE was also instrumental in helping our Province secure

SoftWorld 98, the world's premier deal-making and networking event for the

IT sector. The event drew a record of 775 delegates from around the globe and

allowed our Province to showcase our innovative and dynamic IT industry to the

world.

During SoftWorld 98, a Memorandum of Understanding was signed between this

government, Sun Microsystems of Canada Inc. and Operation ONLINE. From that MOU,

a partnership was created and Pivotal Networks was formed. This one-of a-kind

facility in the world, officially launched in October, will allow companies to

develop applications using the Java technology, network computing systems and

related specialized applications. It will also help to further solidify our

place in the global IT industry.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to highlight several very recent

accomplishments made by Operation ONLINE, which took place during the annual

reports following the annual report's release.

Earlier this month, Operation ONLINE participated in SoftWorld 99, which

was held in Vancouver. It was the site of several significant achievements for

our Province's IT industry. Operation ONLINE signed a partnering agreement

with the technology sector in Costa Rica to facilitate technology transfer,

skills development, and give both regions access to new export markets.

The recently established Pivotal Networks also signed a deal at SoftWorld 99

with KL Group Inc. of Toronto, a producer of award-winning Java development

tools. The deal includes the transfer of over $20,000 in software products from

KL Group to Pivotal Networks. More importantly, it begins a relationship between

the two organizations for product promotion, testing, and development.

Mr. Speaker, Operation ONLINE's Annual Report outlines many more of the

organization's accomplishments over the past year. I would like to commend

this organization for its dedication to developing our IT sector.

Information technology is a key sector in our provincial economy. Each year,

it generates in excess of $500 million. We have approximately 200 IT businesses

operating throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and the sector continues to

grow. With organizations like Operation ONLINE working to foster its

development, I am confident that information technology will continue to be a

major contributing industry to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for a copy of her statement in advance, to

welcome Dr. Botsford to the House today, and just to say to the minister and to

Dr. Botsford that one of the largest sectors in Newfoundland, as the minister

has said, has certainly been the IT sector. I believe it is a sector to which we

should pay particular attention. If there has ever been a brain drain in the

Province of Newfoundland, Minister, it has to be in the IT sector in this

Province. We have seen a lot of our younger brains go out of this Province

because they have been unable to find jobs in the IT sector in this Province.

I would say to you, as minister, and to the good doctor: Keep it up, and

hopefully one of these days we will be able to bring all of these

Newfoundlanders back to work and put them to work in the IT sector in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join with the minister and the Member for Conception Bay

South in commending Operation ONLINE and its president and CEO, Dr. Jack

Botsford, on his work in the IT sector in this Province.

We have here many innovative and creative ideas and brain power in the area

of information technology. A number of them are know personally to me. We do

have leadership in this area. The work of Operation ONLINE is certainly

providing an opportunity for them to market their skills and to make sure that

there are lots of jobs and opportunities in this Province for young people who

are interested in this particular sector of the economy.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to update Members of the House

of Assembly on the progress of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth, which

began public consultations in October. We are undertaking a broad-based public -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What was that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That came from a former House Leader, I tell the hon.

gentlemen. He is now a judge in the Supreme Court, and he was a Tory sitting on

this side.

We are undertaking a broad-based public consultation to renew the Province's

economic agenda.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where were you sitting (inaudible).

MR. TULK: I was over there, doing a good job.

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to inform the House that to date we have heard

from close to 200 individuals and groups. Upwards of 1,300 people have attended

the public forums in Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Harbour Breton, Marystown, St.

Anthony, Corner Brook, Port aux Basques, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador City-Wabush,

Whitbourne, New-Wes-Valley, Clarenville and St. John's.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, public interest has been so high that we have had to

add meetings in Gander, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville and St. John's.

In the St. John's area, four meetings have been added to our original

schedule

to accommodate all the people who want to make presentation to the Committee. We

held an extra meeting in St. John's just last night and two more will be held

on December 2 and December 9. Another will be held in Mount Pearl on December 8.

We also extended our

schedule to meet public demand for a meeting in

Stephenville. That will be held on November 27, this coming Saturday.

The Committee has been hearing from people representing a broad range of

sectors and interests. People are taking the process seriously, they are eager

to participate, and we are getting constructive advice on how to build on our

economic momentum and community strengths.

The jobs and growth consultation will continue this month and into December

with a series of sectoral forums. These round-table discussions will engage key

stakeholders in major sectors of our economy to explore their unique challenges

and opportunities. Sectoral forums will cover the following areas:

manufacturing, advanced technology industries - including information technology

- fisheries, aquaculture, tourism, cultural industries, mining, forestry,

agrifoods, and the petroleum industry.

As chair of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth, I want to thank all

those who have made presentations to date and who have attended the forums. I

also want to thank my Cabinet colleagues and area MHAs who joined with me and

who have heard from so many people.

There is tremendous optimism for the future and this shows wherever the

Committee has traveled. There is confidence among our people that we have turned

the corner economically and that we are capitalizing on the opportunities before

us. As our friends at The Globe and Mail recently reported, and I

believe The National Post as well, the Rock is on a roll.

We are creating more jobs than ever before. Our economic growth rate is

leading the nation. Investment is up. Exports are growing. Out-migration is

slowing.

But we still have a way to go and we fully acknowledge that point. That is

why the work of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth is so important. We

will be reviewing carefully all the views, advice and suggestions we have heard

and, after thorough analysis, use that input to move the economy of this

Province forward even further.

The momentum is building and we must all work together to ensure that the

momentum continues, to secure our future together.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I am surprised the minister did not leave this for Sunday for

the Premier to talk about in his Conversations with the Premier.

Certainly, we commend the people who went out to these meetings. This is

nothing new. People have been consulted on these different things for years, I

say to the minister, in consultations with the ministers over the years, in

consultations with MHAs throughout their own districts and so on. People have

some good ideas and there are entrepreneurs in this Province who have some good

ideas, who want to move forward and create jobs. We commend them for doing that.

It is a process that is needed.

Let's talk about the other

part in this where the minister talks about the

number of jobs throughout this Province. He is up bragging that out-migration

has slowed but in fact, since the government uses graphs so often, they can look

at this graph and see that that is not so. The truth is there is nothing to brag

about. If we really want to talk about jobs in this Province, they should fill

in a couple of other communities in their list right here and go back to them.

Maybe they should listen to the phone calls that the rural members have been

getting in the last few weeks about the lack of jobs in rural communities. The

truth is, the reason for the lack of out-migration is because nobody else can

afford to leave the Province. That is what is going on here.

As far as jobs go, again, maybe we will give a current example to the

minister here today. As of 1:00 p.m. today several hundred people are meeting on

the Northern Peninsula, in Plum Point, because of lack of jobs, I say to the

minister. That is what people are talking about here today. While we talk about

our good news review, the reality in rural Newfoundland and Labrador is of

people in small town Newfoundland who do not have the jobs, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is very good at talking the talk. They have had consultations

now on the Gulf ferry, on taxes, and now on jobs and the economy. When it comes

to walking the walk I have a different concern. Where we have opportunities to

create jobs and spend money in the Province, we should be doing it.

Recently the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation was very kind to

give me a jacket that was being issued by his department in celebration of the

millennium being used all over the world. It was very considerate of him to do

that. Imagine my shock and disappointment to discover that this jacket was in

fact made in Indonesia, where wages are kept low to attract investors. The

minimum wage starts at $2.00 a day, and children as young as thirteen work ten

hours a day in the factories of Indonesia.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, these are jobs and money that should be spent

creating jobs in this Province, not supporting an economy somewhere else.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, that is walking the walk, not talking the talk.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Mines and Energy with respect to

the possible proposal from Inco that he talked about in the Ministerial

Statement today. In his Ministerial Statement he said: [Inco] are also

preparing to formally propose for our consideration a new, leading edge hydro

metallurgical processing plant in Newfoundland and Labrador that will be the

first of its kind in the world. He also said in his Ministerial Statement

that they are also preparing to formally propose a twenty-five to thirty year

mining plan. I would like to ask the minister this. Is the hydro metallurgic

part, or component of that proposal that is coming, a test plant or pilot plant?

If so, how long have they proposed that test plant or pilot period be?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the response that the Leader of the Opposition gave to the Ministerial

Statement he indicated, in reference to this, that with respect to hydro

metallurgy there is only one plant of its kind in existence in the world. Just

to make sure that we have the information correct, the hydro metallurgic plant

that is being proposed, or will be proposed, to Newfoundland and Labrador in a

formal proposition from Inco at some point in the future will be the only one of

its kind in the world. There is nothing like it anywhere else. The issues that

the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has been raising with respect to Goro, New

Caledonia, Indonesia and other projects is a completely different kind of ore

and a completely different end product than what we are dealing with in

Newfoundland and Labrador. This is a made for and made in Newfoundland solution

that Inco is looking at and trying to formalize a proposal.

At this point in time - because I am trying to let the House of Assembly be

aware, as well as the people of the Province be aware - Inco is working very

diligently at trying to put together a complete and comprehensive proposal to

bring to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for its consideration. The

very worse thing that could happen at this point in time is to try to now

speculate about what might be in it, other than the things that we know for

certain will occur. There will be full processing. That has been a question a

year ago. Two years ago in the summer of 1998 Inco was saying they wanted to do

no processing in Newfoundland and Labrador, and now they are saying -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - they are committed to full processing. Mr. Speaker, they

are saying that they are looking at a hydro metallurgic process. We will wait to

see what is in the proposal before we can react to it and decide whether it is

good, bad or indifferent.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if I just may have leave for a second for

points of clarification. This is an important issue. What I have referred to in

terms of Goro, New Caledonia, is that they have a hydro metallurgic process

involved there and obviously the ore is very different there. There is no

question about that. The proposal that they are putting forward here obviously

would involve variations that would not be any point of comparison. The point

that the minister has not answered, and has not answered for some three or four

days, is this. I will ask it in a different way, and maybe he can answer it that

way. Does any part of the proposal that Inco are preparing to put forward - you

must have some idea of it; certainly you would not make a statement today like

you have made if you did not - does any part of that twenty-five year to thirty

year plan involve a period of time where what Inco would be proposing would

involve a test period or pilot period?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am glad to have the acknowledgment that there is no comparison

between what is happening in Goro and what is going to happen in Newfoundland

and Labrador in the future. Maybe, just for further information, with respect to

the hydro metallurgic process, there are other hydro metallurgic processes

active today in the world. There are some in Canada but they are not for nickel.

We are talking about the first time ever for nickel from a sulphide ore, that is

what Inco is looking at proposing for Newfoundland and Labrador. There are

others already in existence in the world for copper and for other metals. There

are hydrometallurgic processes functioning today in Cuba and Australia, so there

are many hydrometallurgic processes functioning and working but there has not

yet been one done for nickel and for the hard rock ores that come out of

Labrador. That is what Inco is looking at trying to develop to present to us for

consideration.

Maybe in answering the question, I might just like again to read from the

statement. What I reported was that Inco is hard at work on all aspects of a

comprehensive proposal covering mining, milling, and processing the concentrate

into nickel metal.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister must conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: When we get the proposal, we will know whether there is

anything in it with respect to the issues that the hon. member is raising.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the minister, enough of a history lesson in terms

of the metallurgical process. I understand the process and I understand that

this is a new body of ore. If you want to look at Goro, New Caledonia, Inco put

a pilot test in place because they never - for the type of ore that is in Goro,

New Caledonia - they put a pilot test in place. Similar to our situation, it was

the first time that they tried that process on that type of ore body.

I will ask you again: In view of the fact that this is a new process being

tried on this ore body, one of its kind in the world, has Inco proposed a pilot

or test period for its development, yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Sometimes part of the history lesson is important. I just might add one other

thing because, if I heard it correctly, in response to the Ministerial

Statement, the Leader of the Opposition indicated that the length of the process

is not of concern to the Opposition; they do not care about that. That the issue

he wanted to deal with -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: We can all check Hansard tomorrow. He says the words, they

end up being written in Hansard.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: He indicated the length of time, and how long the process is

- because it is news and it is noteworthy that this is to be a twenty-five to

thirty year project, not a six or seven year project where everybody scoops out

the proceeds and goes on about their business.

That was a very big issue before the Environmental Assessment Review Panel.

The government, on behalf of the people of the Province, proposed a longer time

frame. The Aboriginal communities proposed a longer time frame. The Assessment

Panel recommended it, and Inco is now indicating that they are willing to

acknowledge and accept that should be the development plan.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: What is in the plan, we will find out when we actually get

the proposal from the company.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is pretty clear to everybody that the minister is not

going to answer directly the question.

In response to his spin - because that is all it can be described as - in

direct response to the Premier in this Legislature about a year ago, or some

time ago, or even in public statements, I am not sure which, when asked

directly: Would we hold Inco to the traditional smelter/refinery originally

proposed? We said clearly for the record - to answer your spin - that we would

look at any new technology as long as all the ore was processed here and as long

as the life of the mine should (inaudible) proposed here. That is very clear.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister did not answer the question about a pilot project, and I think

the lack of an answer is self-evident. I will ask him this question: In view of

the fact that this is a new proposal, s he has talked about, will that now

require a new environmental assessment or a new environmental study from the

Province's point of view?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I guess that maybe part of the difficulty is that the Leader of the

Opposition does not listen or listens selectively. I was not referring to the

fact that the Opposition has suggested that they were committed or married to

any particular type of technology. I indicated that the Leader of the

Opposition, if I heard him correctly, stated that the length of the project was

not a matter of concern for the Opposition. That is what he said today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: But we presented, on behalf of the people of the Province -

because the original plan, if people will recall the part of the history lesson,

is that Inco had talked about taking the ovoid and depleting it within six or

seven years. So the issue as to length was extremely important.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I asked the minister, because this is a new process: Would

there be further environmental studies requested?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I guess we are not allowed to set the record straight with respect to

anything. I was getting to the answer to the question. The question as to

whether or not there will be an environmental assessment required has nothing to

do with the type of technology that is going to be used for processing.

If the hon. Leader of the Opposition would recall - and this is important,

Mr. Speaker, and I think we should all listen to it - there was a court action

taken by a group out of St. John's, friends of mining or whatever, that tried

to have the environmental assessment for the mine and mill in Labrador stopped

because they wanted to have the assessment for the processing plant included in

the same environmental assessment. The argument that was rendered is that the

mine and mill in Labrador have nothing to do with a processing plant.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, everybody understood that regardless of the type of processing that

occurs, there is going to have to be an environmental assessment, whether it was

going to be a smelter or a refinery two or three years ago, whether it is going

to be a hydrometallurgic process. If you are going to build a major processing

plant in Newfoundland and Labrador today, there is an expectation that there

will be a level of environmental assessment required.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, have, we as a Province, gotten to a point to

discuss what the royalty regime will be, first of all; and, if so, could you

elaborate on that? Maybe it is not the Minister of Mines and Energy's job.

Maybe it is the acting Minister of Finance's job to talk about that, but I

will ask it anyway.

The second question is: Vis--vis royalties, what discussions have taken

place with the federal government on the impact of equalization?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think it important for the record, and everybody will acknowledge, that the

Leader of the Opposition now understands that the requirement for an

environmental assessment has nothing to do with whether it is hydrometallurgy or

any other kind of process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: It is important, Mr. Speaker, because people tend to get

very, very picky - and I make this point deliberately - people tend to get very,

very picky about asking you about a specific word that you may or may not have

said years ago or months ago, or some time ago, and is that the exact same word

you are going to use today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, let's make sure we are clear for the record,

that when this issue gets debated at some later point when there is a proposal

to talk about, that everybody would have understood that the official position

of the Opposition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I ask the minister to get to his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that the official position of the

Opposition is that they don't care whether this project is five years or

thirty years. That doesn't matter to them. Secondly, that they didn't know -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will ask one more time: Have there been any

discussions on the royalty regime, first of all. Second of all, in view of the

fact, if he can answer, obviously - well, I don't even expect it anymore but I

will ask it anyway for the record, so the public can see that this minister will

not answer any question put forward by any member at any time in this

Legislature. The question is, again: Has there been any discussion about the

royalty regime, the impact of that on equalization, and have there been any

conversations or negotiations with the federal government on them relaxing any

sort of period with respect to the equalization coming to the Province? Could

the minister elaborate on that, please?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To finish the point, and to make sure that everybody knows that the Leader of

the Opposition was not clear as to whether there would be an environmental

assessment required regardless of what type of plant is going to be built - Mr.

Speaker, just so that we know for the record - because I am sure there will be a

debate about these issues later.

With respect to royalty and taxation, I am glad that the Leader of the

Opposition asked the question today because it is an important question that

Hansard will show that the Leader of the New Democratic Party has been asking in

this Legislature for four years. Ever since Voisey's Bay was discovered, the

Leader of the New Democratic Party has been asking, and now finally the Leader

of the Opposition has done some research, looked in Hansard, and figured he had

better ask a question just in case the Leader of the NDP doesn't get up today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Because the question has been asked: What about the tax holiday? As a matter

of fact, the Leader of the NDP said today in his commentary that he wanted to

know about the tax break. There is no tax break, Mr. Speaker, for Inco.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: It has been answered in this Legislature. Hansard will show

at least fifty times that question has been asked and answered, because it is

the question that belongs to the Leader of the New Democratic Party. I am glad

that he asked it just in case he doesn't get recognized today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today, again, are for the Minister of Mines and Energy. I say to

the Minister of Energy that the Grinch has come early this Christmas in the form

of higher prices at the pumps for gasoline. Newfoundland motorists have had just

about enough of these unexplained price heights and they are angry that their

government is always inactive, seldom reactive, and never proactive in dealing

with these issues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: People in this Province, Mr. Speaker, feel like pawns at

the mercy of price fluctuations that they do not understand and they feel are

not justified. So I ask the Minister of Energy, what are you planning to do this

time with respect to this very unacceptable situation facing the consumers of

our Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can only conclude from the tone and nature of the question that had there

been a different result in the election last February - which thankfully there

was not - and if that group were the government, then I guess they would have

regulated gasoline prices. There is no question. I guess he will stand up now

and tell us whether or not the position of the Official Opposition, that if they

were the government today they would follow the only other example in Canada,

which is Prince Edward Island, and regulate gasoline prices - because this is a

serious issue - despite the fact that there has been a full study of the issue

done in Newfoundland and Labrador.

There has been a full study of the options done. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Browne did the study, the person who has been the consumer advocate in a number

of cases and well known in the Province. Despite every bit of study and every

bit of representation, the advice given to the government, whether they were the

government - and thankfully again I say they are not - or we were the

government, is that regulation is not the answer.

We are having another process that is reaching conclusion now where we have

further empowered the Government Monitor, which was recommended and has been in

place for a couple of years, to change the order in process of price increases

and price fluctuations.

Mr. Speaker, the government is on record through the independent monitor to

say that the price increases that occurred in Newfoundland and Labrador, like

last summer, are too high and not justified, but there is no mechanism - and

when the group opposite were the government, they used to be asking the same

questions by members on this side and they gave the same answers, that

regulation is not the answer. The market will dictate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say to the minister: Won't he confirm that the real

reason government is silent, and always silent on this issue, is that it

actually stands to gain from the price hike, Mr. Speaker? Not only is more than

half the price of gas actually in taxation, and not only is three-fifths of that

amount in provincial taxes, but this government's ad volorem tax policy means

it gets more taxes every time the price of gasoline goes up.

I ask the minister: Why won't he admit his complicity on this issue? Why

won't he do something about the high levels of gas taxes gouging Newfoundland

consumers?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I must admit that in the year that I have been Minister of Mines and Energy

one of the first issues I was confronted with a year ago in December was gas

price increases. It was an issue, again, in which we pointed out quite honestly

and frankly and openly to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that the

fundamental reason - and the hon. member just asked about it - why gas prices

are a little higher in Newfoundland and Labrador than they are -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: Yes, just a little. You can make the comparisons anywhere in

the country. Never mind trying to sensationalize the issue. The reason they are

a little higher in Newfoundland and Labrador than in other jurisdictions is

because we tax at a higher rate on gasoline. I have said that consistently every

time for a year.

The Opposition, I guess, would now suggest that not only should we have cut

income taxes more, not only should we have cut out the surtaxes, not only should

we be giving everybody everything they want no matter what they ask for and

whether it could be afforded, but we should also now remove the payroll tax, get

rid of tax on gasoline, have no sales tax, have no income tax, and have no

money.

Mr. Speaker, we are making choices and decisions -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: In fact, Mr. Speaker, the issue of gasoline taxes and other

taxes is dealt with annually in the budget. We are now aware of the fact,

everybody is, that there will be income tax reductions in Newfoundland and

Labrador. Whether or not there will be gasoline reductions will be seen later.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say, Mr. Speaker, if we could tax the natural gas from

this minister, we would not need any more taxation!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Several weeks ago the Minister of Finance and the

Premier of this Province, in a press release and before the cameras, indicated

some measures to alleviate the tax burden on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

In view of what is happening today and in view of the fact that significant

dollars on every fill-up of a tank of gas is in the form of taxation, why won't

this minister and his fellow ministers and this government show leadership, do

something about the tax consequences as a result of tax and, in fact, implement

a policy today which reduces gasoline tax in this Province or deals effectively

with the HST consequences?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Actually, I share the sentiment expressed by the Member for St. John's

East, that if in fact they could tax some of the hot air from this building

maybe we could reduce some other taxes. Because there is lots of it from all

sides and all parties I guess when the debate ensues.

It is a serious issue and as I have indicated before, and as I have spoken to

the groups with respect to gasoline pricing, both in Central Newfoundland and

here in St. John's, it is an issue the government has to decide how many

places you can reduce taxes. We have chosen, because we think it has the

greatest immediate impact, to reduce income taxes in a realistic, achievable

fashion for the foreseeable future.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance, in every budget annually, decides and

reviews on all other levels of taxation. So the recognition from the monitor

with respect to gas prices, is that since the price of crude has more than

doubled in the past six or seven months some increase in the price of gasoline

is justified. We have said this time, just like we said in the summer, that we

think that the companies are gouging. We think that they are increasing the

price too much, that it is not warranted, that some increase is warranted -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: - but the solution, as to tax changes, will have to wait for

another point in time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health. Minister, there is an

estimated shortage of at least fifty doctors in numerous communities around this

Province. In cities like Corner Brook, for example, sick people cannot get a

family doctor because practices are not taking on new patients. In fact, I spoke

with a disabled person from Corner Brook within the last couple of days who was

experiencing this very same problem. Six doctors have left Corner Brook and were

not replaced. Four have left Clarenville. They are three short in Bonavista. The

list goes on and on all over the Province.

The measures that the minister has taken in her department to fill the void

falls far short of what is needed to attract doctors. I want to ask the

minister: Are they currently now preparing a proposal to address this very

serious problem?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Government has been working very hard over

the last year or more to try and address the issue of physicians in the

Province. We have been working diligently with the various health boards across

the Province to try and resolve this issue.

Over the past year we have invested very significantly in order to enhance

our Province's ability to recruit and retain physicians. Our efforts continue

and we will certainly proceed with those and try and work closely with the

boards until all of the vacancies and all of the gaps that have been identified

can be resolved.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Most salaried general practitioners in this Province get paid considerably

less than other provinces. The new government in New Brunswick just instituted a

$6.8 million program to attract rural doctors. They increased salaries for

everybody by $20,000. Now they are giving grants up to $40,000 for doctors to go

to rural areas of the Province.

I want to ask the minister this. Is the minister concerned now that other

provinces that are placing greater emphasis on recruitment and retention are

going to lure even more doctors away from Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, over the past year the government, as I have

indicated, has invested very significantly in salaries as well as in other

efforts to attract and to compensate physicians who are here. There was $32

million that was provided in the MOU with the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical

Association last year. I believe that that ranks with probably the highest

salary increase of any other person in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of

Education.

Minister, conflict of interest has been a problem that has plagued,

especially trustees, over the last number of years, really since the act was

introduced. Will the Minister of Education bring a bill to the House this fall

to amend the schools act so that school board trustees can vote on issues

affecting the schools their children attend?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, it is good news. The question is: Why is it

taking so long?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

s22

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member would be aware, there has been

a number of rulings of late with respect to conflict of interest in the

legislation. We had three rulings with two different

interpretations of the act.

Essentially what we did was said that rather than continue with the confusion

and have this go back to court, we decided to move and move quickly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is also for the Minister of Education. The minister will know of

the importance of the high level of poverty in this Province and the number of

school children who go to school hungry. Is she also aware that contracts signed

with caterers in schools in our Province have exclusion clauses that prevent

school lunch programs from being brought into those particular schools? Will the

minister indicate her position on that matter and whether she is prepared to

take action to prevent private corporations from having clauses in their

contracts that prevent school lunch programs from their schools?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, we recognize that there is an issue in this

Province with respect to poverty and children going to school hungry. There are

a number of reasons for that, not the least of which, of course, is the fact

that some parents just cannot afford to provide breakfast for their children,

while for any number of other reasons children may end up going because they do

not have time to have breakfast. Where we have the lunch school program in place

or breakfast programs for that matter, we are very appreciative of all the

support that we have gotten from the corporate sector, and certainly the money

that government puts into this program.

There is a business out there. We are under obligation, and with respect to

the contracts that we have with these caterers to, in fact, not allow the lunch

programs into the schools. That is an agreement because we have the private

sector in the schools providing the food.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, in addition to preventing school lunch programs

from occurring in schools, the schools are relying on kickbacks from these

contractors to buy essentials for schools, such as paper and chalk. Will the

minister put an end to these practices and ensure that there is adequate money

for school supplies in this Province, that there is adequate opportunity and, in

fact, a full School Lunch Program so that every schoolchild in Newfoundland and

Labrador can go to school with a full belly and be able to learn properly in

this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member opposite is aware of kickbacks

that are taking place in the system, as he calls them, I would suggest he table

them for the information of all of us, so that we can look into it.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 4.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to introduce a

bill,

An Act To Amend The Physiotherapy Act. (Bill 36)

On motion, Bill 36 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 5.

Mr. Speaker, let me, if I could, just say that these are first readings -

Motions 5, 6 and 7.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill,

An Act To

Amend The Financial Administration Act. (Bill 34)

On motion, Bill 34 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods to introduce

a bill,

An Act To Amend The Forestry Act. (Bill 35)

On motion, Bill 35 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour to introduce a bill,

An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act. (Bill 33)

On motion, Bill 33 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill,

An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act. (Bill 27)

MR. SPEAKER: Which order is that?

MR. TULK: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, Order 8,

An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 8. This is the adjourned debate on this bill?

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise again today to say a few words on -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I am asking leave of the House - and we will no take any of the

hon. member's time - the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology had

originally indicated in a Ministerial Statement that she would table a report, a

statement -

MS KELLY: An annual report.

MR. TULK: An annual report. I wonder if the hon. gentleman would allow us

to revert to that and then come back to his speech without cutting into his

time?

MR. SPEAKER: We are reverting to....

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is agreed that we revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special

Committees.

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to table the Annual Report, 1998-1999, of Operation ONLINE,

as I indicated in my Ministerial Statement.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to say a few words on Bill 27 but, before getting into the nuts

and bolts of this particular bill, I have to refer back to Question Period today

when we saw a display and a charade put on by the Minister of Mines and Energy.

It is no secret that there is going to be a leadership convention. There is

going to be a race for the leadership of the Liberal Party that will soon be

brought forward here, that we will all soon experience.

As the minister was getting up, trying to answer the hard-hitting questions

put forward by the Leader of the Opposition, I could not help but wonder what

kind of chaos we would be in in this Province if this member, this minister,

ever gets to sit in the Premier's chair.

I understand that he is the front-runner. I understand there is a lot of

support over there for him, but all I can say is: God help Newfoundland and

Labrador. I would much rather see you there, I say to the Member for Twillingate

& Fogo, than I would to see that member; because I would like to live here

in this Province and I would like for my family to be able to live here.

Mr. Speaker, if that minister ever becomes Premier of this Province, I will

be the first one over in Port aux Basques waiting for the ferry out. I will be

the first one gone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: I would have no other choice. Can you imagine the chaos

that would be caused?

MR. GRIMES: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER(Smith): Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, could I have some kind of assurance that he will

live to the word that he just said about leaving, more so than the candidate for

the Progressive Conservative Party in Exploits who promised to do the same thing

if this government was re-elected he would leave Newfoundland. He is still in

Bishop Falls. He said he would leave. I offered to pack his bags but he is not

gone yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. GRIMES: Gonzo. Gonzo promised to leave too. You just promised to

leave. Maybe the two of you can get on the same boat.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know about Gillingham, but I can tell him he

can take my promise to the bank that I will be gone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: I will be gone. There is some competition, there is some

hope over there. There is competition. It will not be a cake walk, it will not

be an easy walk; there will be other people over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: John will be your legal advisor.

MR. FITZGERALD: I am not sure what is happening with the Minister of

Fisheries. The Minister of Fisheries announced his candidacy months ago when he

had a piece in the paper.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I realize what I just did. It is a promise.

MR. TULK: You just got about ten more caucus members to go to work for

Roger.

MR. FITZGERALD: I doubt that. I think he has them all anyway, I say to

the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) I would miss you. I wouldn't want you to

have to leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: I think you will run, and I think you might have a very

good chance of winning, I say to the minister. It will be a boring time in this

House, but thank God I will not be here to witness it - by my own choice, I say

to the members opposite, because I will be out of here.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on Bill 27,

An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act. A couple of days ago when I stood here, I talked about

having a free vote in the House of Assembly. I talked about if there was a free

vote permitted. If we were to elect a person in this House of Assembly who we

would like to see as the Minister of Health, and who would do a good job heading

up the Department of Health and Community Services, if there was a free vote,

and everybody could vote in their own secret way, I would say the House Leader

of the Official Opposition would win that vote by three to one right here in

this Chamber. There is nobody -

AN HON. MEMBER: For what?

MR. FITZGERALD: For the Minister of Health and Community Services. If

there was a free vote, a secret vote, there is nobody who would dispute the man's

ability. There is nobody who would dispute the man's integrity or the man's

knowledge of this particular department. I do not know of anybody else who would

even come close to the Member for Ferryland.

I would like to refer again to health boards. I talked about, and we have

talked about in our Blue Book, of doing away with health boards, doing away with

health care boards as it relates to the present structure. Now the minister goes

out and appoints health care boards at her own whims and wishes. I remember been

in a meeting and one of the particular health care members said that nobody knew

his political affiliation. All it takes is the call of an election and it is not

hard to see some of the people the minister has appointed to those health care

boards. How can they function, I say to members opposite? How can a health care

board function when you go out and you appoint somebody as your representative

to serve them on the health care board?

When I heard somebody say the other day that the health care board should not

meet with local nurses, they should not meet and discuss local problems that

exist in local areas, that that should be his job, to meet with nurses and to

try to solve problems, it made me wonder what the health care board was all

about, or why we even need them. If they are the representative of the area that

they are appointed to, then you would think that when they come to the table and

bring forward discussion they would bring forward the wishes, views, problems

from the area that they serve and represent. If not, we might just as well go

out and nominate people from a community and say that is it. We may as well

nominate them all, in my particular case, from Clarenville, where it would not

cost anything for them to travel. They would be right there where the hospital

administration is and it would not cost us any money to allow the health care

board to meet or come together; they would not even make a long distance call.

What a way to have health care boards. What a way for somebody to say that

your health care board should not be there to bring forward the problems that

exist in the area they represent. I always thought when you go and elect - which

I think should happen - or you nominate health care boards that they would

represent the area from which they came. If you had a problem, or the nurses had

a problem, or the doctors had a problem, or if there was a problem within that

health care institution, then you would go and consult your board. You would

know your board members, you would meet with them and allow them to bring

forward your concerns, wishes, and problems, take them to the board level and

solve the problem.

That is why we have those problems, I say to members opposite. Somebody

should sit down with the local administrators and with the health care boards

and say: This is what we expect. These are what your duties are. If you want to

serve on those boards, then you make yourself available and you listen to the

people you are supposed to represent, and bring them forward to the table. We

are talking about volunteers. I know that. People serve on those boards and they

do not get compensated, they do not get paid, and we should be thankful that

they are there. I know all about that. If we are going to have people there,

then for God's sake, let's make them representative of the area they are

from and the area they serve.

We have been having a major problem down in the District of Bonavista South,

which I represent, with the situation whereby we have the Golden Heights Manor

there. It is a first-class facility. It is a seniors' home. It has seventy

beds and there are sixty beds filled. There are ten other beds that were created

by renovations. I suppose if you are going to go and do renovations - I think

there was something like $2.1 million spent in doing renovations to the old

section of Golden Heights Manor. In doing those renovations there were ten extra

beds created. Those rooms were furnished, the beds were put in, the night stands

were put in, the rooms were wired and painted, the tiles were put on the floor,

the beds and mattresses put in, and the doors are closed.

I have had numerous conversations with the minister. I've put I don't

know how many pleas forward to ask if some of those beds could be opened. I put

forward the plea that we should not have to have fifteen or twenty people -

because the minister's argument is always: There aren't enough people,

Roger, on the waiting list for us to open those ten beds. I have been saying:

Minister, if there is one person on that waiting list who meets the

qualifications to enter into the Golden Heights Manor, and there is a

demonstrated need there for it, then we should open one bed.

If there is nobody there, nobody expects the beds to be opened and staff

hired with nothing for them to do. People come in on a casual basis. Nobody has

any problem with that. We should not have people working if there are not things

for them to do. We should not have beds open if there is not a need.

I say to members opposite, how do you answer somebody who calls trying to get

their mother or their father or a relative into the Golden Heights Manor and you

have to say: I am sorry, but there aren't enough people on the waiting list to

allow that to happen. What a feeble answer. That is what I find myself doing, I

find myself saying what the minister is saying, but how can you justify it? That

particular need, the need for that one person, the need for that one bed to be

open, is just as great, I say to members opposite, as if there were fourteen

there. While we have those ten beds there and if there are ten people on a

waiting list, the ten beds should be open. If we have one person on that waiting

list and if there are ten beds there open, open the one bed. You do not have to

bring in rules and regulations where you would go out and hire two more people

in order to open ten beds because you decided to open a bed.

I don't know, maybe I am all wet. Maybe I don't understand the situation.

If government is so cumbersome, and if the Department of Health and Community

Services is so high tech that all the beds have to be open or none of them have

to be open, then it is time for us to settle back and look at what we are doing

or how we put forward priorities. It is no big thing.

In fact, the staff down at Golden Heights Manor have come to me, and have

gone to the minister, and have even said, in trying to respond to this

particular need: We are willing to make concessions on our union agreement. They

say: We are willing to look at doing things differently than our own union

agreement states in order to get some of those beds open and in order to respond

to the need that exists here in this community.

I have had the minister down to my district on at least two occasions. I know

that some community activists put on a demonstration down there for a couple of

hundred days straight, right up to Christmas Day last year, to try to get the

minister's attention to look at the need at the Golden Heights Manor in

Bonavista. I think they have been very fair in dealing with the government and

the Department of Health and Community Services. They are not looking for

anything that they would take back themselves as far as extra jobs go, or as far

as creating more employment, or as far as making people who are now temporary

full-time. They are saying: If you open the beds in order to respond to the

need, Madam Minister, we will provide the care with the resources that we have.

No, we still have not been getting through to the minister. The minister

still turns her back and says: While there are ten beds there and while it costs

us $2 million in order to create those ten beds, we are not going to open them

because your waiting list is not long enough. It does not matter about the one

senior who needs to get into the Golden Heights Manor. It does not matter about

five seniors who want to get into the Golden Heights Manor. You have to show the

minister that there is a demonstrated need, that there are probably fourteen or

fifteen who have been on that waiting list for two or three months, in order for

her to respond to get some of those beds open. That is shameful, I say to the

minister.

When you see people in the community who pick up the need - it is not union

workers that say we want this done. It is not people who stand to benefit from

some form of activity in that particular institution who say that we need this

done. For the most

part it is community minded people who know what the Golden

Heights Manor has to offer, know the need in the community, and have come

forward and said: Hey, there is something happening here. Why do we have ten

beds closed? Why do we have ten beds, ten rooms, fully furnished, put here in

this facility...? They can respond to the needs by just going and putting some

bedclothes on the bed. That is all that is needed, I say to members opposite.

Pillows and everything are lying in the beds and the doors are closed, but

because we have not reached the levels that the minister said must be reached,

because the waiting list is not long enough, somebody's mother, somebody's

father, somebody's relative is sitting at home now suffering. Because the

minister in her wisdom has decided not to allow some of those people to go to

the Golden Heights Manor and receive the need and the care that they deserve as

our seniors. That is what is happening out there today.

The minister in response as well says: It costs a lot of money to open some

of those beds, but what we are going to do is we are going to provide home care.

We are going to provide the funding available so seniors might stay in their own

homes. There is nothing wrong with that concept. I know a lot of people that

would not think about going into a seniors' home, whether it is the Golden

Heights Manor or whether it is some other seniors' home. They do not want to

go there. They want to stay home, and for the most part the family would like to

be able to look after them in their own home, if that is their choice.

What we do is there is a pot of money that is made available to be provided

for home care. The sad part about it is that while the minister do not want to

open the seniors' beds at places like Golden Heights Manor, while she says

that she is going to make home care available - it is all good stuff - but the

problem is that there is no money there. The budget is gone. Unless somebody

passes away, unless somebody actually dies, there is nobody else in the eastern

region of this Province who will receive home care. That is where the budget is.

Every hour is allotted. I can tell you stories that will make your hair stand

up on what people are going through in trying to look after seniors and the

disabled in their own homes. In fact, it was only the other day that I had a

lady down in my district and I went and helped her celebrate her one hundredth

birthday. Do you know what her plea was on her one hundredth birthday? Her plea

was that she would be allowed to receive some money for home care so that she

might be able to live with her daughter. A lady who celebrated her one hundredth

birthday - I went there and I read messages from the Queen, I read messages from

the Prime Minister, from the Premier of the Province, from the MP - and her plea

was: That I might be able to remain in my own home. Her daughter was willing to

look after. Her plea was for home care. I am getting calls from her daughter and

I am getting calls from her family. Right now, she was fortunate enough to get

twenty hours and that came about three weeks after her one hundredth birthday.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) a day or a week?

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty hours a week, I say to the member.

AN HON. MEMBER: A week?

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty hours a week is the maximum is that she has been

able to access. This is a lady now who for the most part - well, she is one

hundred years old. I can guarantee you that she needs help at home. She has her

wits about her, she is capable of making her own decisions, and she has made her

wish. Her family wants to allow her to have that wish acknowledged and the wish

is that she be allowed to remain in her home.

Those are some of the things that we should be looking after. While we see

the minister get up and we see the Premier get up and the Government House

Leader and talk about how well we are doing, we are moving along, the exit of

people have stopped, there are people working, there is some money now on the

go, we are reducing income tax -

MR. TULK: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) the hon. gentleman. I have to say to him I do not

mind him standing there and giving the correct information, but in way have I

ever said, and I will not until it happens, that the out-migration has stopped.

MR. SPEAKER: No point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, while we see the Minister of Finance get up

and talk about how well this Province is doing and it is doing so well that we

are going to reduce income tax and we are going to look at doing other things to

take money out of the treasury of this Province, I say to the ministers

opposite, and I say to members opposite, that there is a great need out there

that needs money now. You might say: You fellows have all the answers over

there. You talk about doing away with the payroll tax, you talk about doing away

with something else, and here you are today, Member for Bonavista South, talking

about how bad things are in your district.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Leave!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I say to members opposite - I

do not need leave, there are other people here that can bring forward arguments

and examples just as well as I can. I am going to say it to you, Mr. Speaker,

and I am going to say it through you, Mr. Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Is leave withdrawn?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. If he doesn't need it, leave is withdrawn.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Leave has been withdrawn. I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

MR. FITZGERALD: There is a great need there, and I ask that the people of

the minister's office respond to the need and provide the care that is needed

in this Province today, especially in rural areas.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Because the Government House Leader today gave I think his second or third

Ministerial Statement in the last couple of years - he is not known to give

great numbers of statements - in the House, I wanted to quote from it. Because

he said: ...there is tremendous optimism for the future..., and he said:

We are creating more jobs than ever before. Our economic growth rate is

leading the nation. Investment is up.

When I awoke this morning and was on the way to my early morning fitness

classes at about 6:30, I was listening to CBC radio. CBC radio had a lady on

from the Burin Peninsula. This lady was talking about health care in her

particular family. Yesterday in the House the Member for Ferryland, the critic

for the Department of Health and Community Services - and doing a tremendous job

with that - brought to government's attention the situation relative to Mrs.

Dimmer of Fox Cove. Fox Cove is a little community on the Placentia Bay side of

the Burin Peninsula. Mrs. Dimmer did not present a picture this morning of

somebody who has a tremendous optimism for the future. Indeed, Mrs. Dimmer told

the tragic story of her husband and her family, and what has happened to him as

he battles with his illness and as he progressively declines in health. Also,

now having suffered a stroke, how he has been admitted to the Burin Peninsula

Health Care Centre in Salt Pond, Burin. Now that he is ready to leave the

hospital she finds she cannot take him home anymore. She would need twenty-four

hour care. She cannot get that. Indeed, they have told her that he will have to

go to a nursing home.

On the Burin Peninsula there are two nursing homes. One is located in St.

Lawrence and the other is located in Grand Bank. Both of these homes are very

familiar to me. At various times I've had members of my family in both of

those places, and I can say to you that the care given there is very good.

Mrs. Dimmer tells the story of how when her husband, who is sixty-six years

old, goes to the nursing home - not in St. Lawrence where she would prefer but

in Grand Bank - she finds that all of his income from his pensions will go with

him. That means that Mrs. Dimmer, at fifty-six years old, will have to live on

social services. Having been a housewife all of her life, and having taken care

of her family, now at fifty-six years old she is told that there will no share

of her husband's pension coming to her. In fact, we know that the pension

income of the person who was admitted to a nursing home goes with that person.

Unless the family has a lot of money, then the person who is left to live in the

family home finds himself or herself in a destitute situation. Now this is

totally, completely, unfair.

There is something wrong when we tell a lady at age fifty-six that she has to

live on social services until she gets to age sixty; all because her husband,

who was older, has suffered a tremendous decline in his health and all of his

income from his old age pension, from his Canada Pension, will go with him.

As a matter of fact, there is one little correction that I could make to the

story that was done this morning and the interview that was done on CBC, because

the impression was left that somehow the $125 which will be given to Mr. Dimmer

would indeed be given to Mrs. Dimmer. That is not correct. That is not what

really happens, because the $125 that would be taken and given to Mr. Dimmer,

this would be used for his personal care. This is what he would have to buy his

ordinary toiletries out of, and these kinds of things that you need for personal

care when you are living in a nursing home. Therefore that $125, even that, does

not go to Mrs. Dimmer. I find the contrast in that person's situation, with

what the minister said in the House today, to be somewhat overwhelming. When we

hear the minister today say there is tremendous optimism for the future, I would

only say that I wish I could tell that to Mrs. Dimmer.

This morning when this lady was interviewed, she was crying out for changes,

crying out for someone to say: Would somebody please listen to me? Would

somebody please help me? Would someone let me have some dignity? Would somebody

reach out and say: Yes, you deserve a share of your husband's pension because

this pension was earned in the family while he was working and while both of you

were together as one family unit.

For Mrs. Dimmer - it is nice to talk about the growth rate, it is nice to

talk about increases in GDP, it is nice to talk about the fact that

out-migration is slowing down, it is nice to talk about the roads that we have

pave, and all of these things, but for this lady she has fallen through the

cracks.

We can talk as well about other factors in health care. The night before

last, I attended a meeting in Mount Pearl. One of the ladies there had been a

nurse in this Province and recently she was so frustrated with the nursing

situation in Newfoundland and Labrador that she quit her job on the Great

Northern Peninsula. She resigned. She said: I cannot work in this Province any

more. The workload is so high. It is not what I want for my son and myself.

She has applied to move to Alberta. Here is a lady who is in her early

forties, I would suspect, who has had a fairly distinguished career in the

nursing profession in this Province, and who has decided that she will have to

move out of this Province because of the working conditions that nurses have to

endure day after day.

She told me about the attractive package she was offered in moving to

Alberta. In fact, she is taking up a position in Jasper, Alberta. For that

nurse, all of the somatic changes we are making here today mean very little.

We on this side have no objections to the amendments to the Registered Nurses

Act, certainly not. These changes here are important, I am sure. They are

changing the name of the nurses association to include the fact that Labrador -

that in the future they will be known as the Association of Registered Nurses of

Newfoundland and Labrador. We have no objection to that but we cannot let this

opportunity go by without addressing some of the situations in health care.

I said that this lady is so frustrated that she is moving out of the

Province. She is joining so many others. When this government brought in Bill 3

last spring and they said: We will not let you have binding arbitration; we will

force you to go back to work under severe penalties - well, you know, many

nurses in this Province have invoked the ultimate sanction; and that sanction is

the one where you walk away. You do not just walk away from the bargaining

table; you walk right out of the profession or you walk right out of the

Province.

This nurse said to me, the night before last: I do not want to work in

Newfoundland and Labrador any more. I have a job in Jasper, Alberta, and my son

and I are leaving on December 4.

Mr. Speaker, that is what is happening. That lady is only one of many who

have said that if you do not treat us fairly, if you do not give us dignity, if

you do not be fair to nurses, if you do not provide a better focus on patient

care, if you do not go and address the issue of casualization in a meaningful

manner and you do not provide a fair and equitable wage and benefits package, if

the Premier and the government do not live up to the commitments that they made

just on the eve of the last election, if they do not deal positively and

constructively with nurses and their issues, then these nurses are going to take

the ultimate sanction. They are going to leave Newfoundland and Labrador

altogether. That is what is happening.

I only bring that up because this is a part of the issues that face our

nurses in this Province. I will say as well that I have heard some positive

things lately. I will just make a point of saying that some of the recruitment

that is now being done - I do understand from one of my contacts that there are

indeed some nurses going to come back. That is good news, but there are still

far more who are moving out.

It is no surprise to any of us who were here last spring. We saw the nurses

in the lobby of this building day after day, night after night. When I stood

here and looked around and saw the galleries full of nurses, I saw nurses crying

in their seats when we passed Bill 3. There was no great big cry from the nurses

in the gallery, but we could see and we all knew that many of them cried their

way out of this Legislature.

I notice that the Minister of Government Services and Lands is making

wisecracks across the House when I am talking about the nurses. I would like the

people of Labrador to note that, while I am talking about a serious issue of

nurses not being treated properly in this House last spring, the minister of the

Crown who sat in Cabinet and said: Okay, beat up on the nurses, force them back

to work - today, when I am talking about the nurses' issue, he is making

wisecracks across the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, that is the problem. Nurses have

to be treated seriously. They have to take their issues seriously. It is not a

time for any minister of the Crown to be making wisecracks across the

Legislature, when the issue of nurses is so important and fundamental to our

Province.

I am sure that the people in the Labrador district he represents will be very

disappointed at his conduct and his belittling of their frustration.

I want to mention as well, because I do have some personal experience within

my own family, the great and tremendous work that is being done by nurses in our

hospitals. Over the last number of years I have had, I guess, the duty to be at

4 North A and 4 North B at the Health Sciences on many occasions, because of a

family member who has battled with cancer. I have seen some of the tremendous

work being done there.

I can tell you that since 1996 I have walked practically every square foot of

the fourth floor of the Health Sciences Complex from time to time. I know what

it is like to know when a simple little thing like the ice machine breaks down

on the fourth floor. How long does it take to fix an ice machine on the fourth

floor? Nine months it took.

I say to my health critic, when you are undergoing chemotherapy and other

cancer treatments, cold water and ice -

MR. SULLIVAN: What hospital?

MR. H. HODDER: At the Health Sciences.

MR. SULLIVAN: I was at St. Clare's and the same thing. The machine was

broke for weeks.

MR. H. HODDER: For many weeks, I would go the Ultramar station on the top

of Ruth Avenue and Old Placentia Road, in Mount Pearl, and pick up a bag of ice

- buy it myself - and take it into the Health Sciences Complex. Many of the

patients there would say to my family member: Has he arrived yet with the ice?

That is shameful, that it would take nine months for a simple little thing,

to have the ice-making machine repaired on the cancer ward.. That is really what

happened.

MR. SULLIVAN: I know people who needed ice pans for their surgery, after

surgery, with replacement surgery and things, that were needed to keep down

swelling, and there was no ice there. I remember one trip to a place on St.

Clare Avenue to get ice.

MR. H. HODDER: I am noting as well the comments being made by my

colleague, the critic. He is mentioning, and I will mention for the record, the

fact that he has had experience with St. Clare's Hospital, and the fact that

simple little things like the ice-making machine at that hospital have not

worked from time to time as well.

MR. SULLIVAN: I don't know if it is working even today, and that was

months ago.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I can speak on many other issues connected

with health care, but I want to return for a moment to the issue of collective

bargaining. If we are really to begin to address health care in this Province,

we have to start to address the issue of collective bargaining.

It was shameful the way that this government treated the nursing profession

last spring. I have an

article here, published in The Telegram on April

10. It is entitled - it names the Premier by name - and says: He makes a shame

of collective bargaining.

Mr. Speaker, when we force people to go back to work, as was done with the

nurses, it is counterproductive. We know that the nurses were frustrated, and we

know that the government was frustrated, but the answer was not to force them to

go back to work.

As a matter of fact, we know as well that there was in existence at that time

an alterative. There was in existence an alternative to the back-to-work

legislation. As a matter of fact, the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act

provided a remedy. It said that the nurses could have accessed the binding

arbitration route. However, the government chose not to treat nurses with

respect and give them that particular alternative.

Let me read from the

article of April 10 in The Telegram on this very

issue. It compares the anti-union legislation of Premier Brian Tobin with the

arrogant anti-union legislation of his political predecessor and mentor, Joey

Smallwood. It talks about the legislation that broke the IWA strike in 1959, and

makes a comparison between what happened in 1999 with what happened in 1959.

Mr. Speaker, certainly I well remember the 1959 incidents and the debate. I

was finishing high school at that time. I do remember teaching in Central

Newfoundland shortly thereafter, and what the feelings towards the government

were in Central Newfoundland in the aftermath of what happened.

It is sad when a government chooses to issue such draconian rules and pass

such an overpowering, arrogant, anti-union legislation as happened in 1959 in

Newfoundland and Labrador, and happened again in 1999.

What the

article goes on to say is that it draws into question the very right

to collective bargaining by public sector employees. If the bargaining process

ends and a collective agreement is dictated by the employer, it is nothing more

than a sham.

In other words, the message to nurses, the message to members of the RNC, the

message to other public servants, the message to the wardens, the message to

everybody who works for the government, is: We will bargain with you as long as

you agree with what we say. But, if you happen to have a different opinion, if

you happen to go and you want to have some of the things that you want in your

collective bargaining process, it doesn't matter whether you are a warder,

whether you are a nurse, whether you are a public servant in this building, a

teacher, whoever you are, the governments' attitude is: Well, we will only

bargain with you as long as you see it our way.

That certainly is not in good faith. It makes a sham of collective

bargaining.

Part of the problem that we have today in this Province with the nurses

moving out and the collective bargaining process effectively dead - the

collective bargaining in the public service of this Province has never, ever

been weaker than it is today. Certainly we have seen some evidence of that in

recent weeks, and particularly in recent months.

We know that there is a prediction nationally that there will be shortages of

nurses. We know that our nurses are moving towards the United States. As a

matter of fact, of the forty-one nurses who graduated in this Province last year

with their Bachelor of Nursing, only one or two of them found work in this

Province. I haven't got the complete up-to-date data on that, but as of a

little while ago practically all of them have moved out of this Province to find

work. Certainly, when the other Provinces are offering very, very attractive

packages to the nurses, we can only expect that more and more of our nurses will

move on.

I refer as well to other articles that have been written about collective

bargaining in this Province. I note that the Minister of Fisheries is moaning

and groaning. He is at least showing some signs of life.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: If a nurse were here, she wouldn't have to go over and

test him. There he is now; he has woke up.

When we are talking about nurses, the Minister of Fisheries again joins his

colleague in the Cabinet who, a few minutes ago, was making some very negative

remarks across the House. Again, we are talking about nurses. It is sure

evidence that the government feels very, very guilty about what they did with

nurses last spring.

The government should feel guilty about what they forced their own

backbenchers to vote for. There were backbenchers on the Liberal governments'

side last spring who could barely deal with themselves for having been told in

caucus: You have to support the Cabinet. You have to stand firm. You have to get

in there and you have to vote to force those nurses back to work.

Mr. Speaker, I know some members in the back benches on the government side

who said to me: I don't feel very happy about doing this, but you know our

system works on solidarity. They were told that they cannot show any weakness.

They cannot show compassion. They have to stand there and when the vote is

called - and when the standing vote was called here, every single one of the

members in the back benches were told by their Cabinet colleagues: You have to

stand up and you have to vote to order the nurses back to work.

That is the way that side of the House operates. What happens here is that

the Cabinet, the people who make the policy decisions - we all know how it

works, but on this particular issue, the issue of Bill 3 last spring, caused so

much anxiety, caused so much embarrassment, there were members in the back

benches who did not want to go home to their districts. They were reluctant to

go home to their districts because they did not know how they were going to face

their own supporters, face their own colleagues, and have to say: Yes, we had to

force the nurses back to work and we were forced to vote for Bill 3.

That is the issue that we have to look at in this Province.

In conclusion -

MR. FITZGERALD: You are not finished yet, Harvey. You are not finished

yet, you are making too much sense.

MR. H. HODDER: I say to my colleague from Bonavista South, I listened to

him talk about the needs of the Bonavista Peninsula and the needs of the people

in his district. It is shameful that we would have, in Bonavista South, a

perfectly, well-organized, structured nursing home, and we have closed beds.

I could refer to the comments made in this House on many occasions by my

colleague, the Member for Conception Bay South. He talks about the private care

homes in his district, and how we do not invest sufficient money to look after

our seniors who have to live in private care homes. I do believe that the Member

for Conception Bay South probably has more personal care homes in his district

than any other district in the Province. He is very, very knowledgeable on the

struggle that those people who own those homes have to endure every day, day

after day, trying to provide a sensible and reasonable, compassionate and kind,

level of care for the seniors who live in their home.

We can do a lot more for our elderly. We can do a lot more for our nurses.

When we talk about, as the Government House Leader did today, talk in very

glowing terms about how great it is, how wonderful it is, and how we have such a

promising future, I just say to the Government House Leader, I wish that some of

that enthusiasm could indeed be shared by some of the seniors in Newfoundland

and Labrador who every day struggle to make ends meet, struggle to maintain

themselves in their own home, and the nurses who say that they want to have a

respect, a dignity, they want to have the government focus on patient care, and

if they do all of that, then we will have a much better health care system in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. GRIMES: (Inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: I note for the record that, as I talk about health care,

the Minister of Mines and Energy calls across the House with personal comments,

attacking me as I stand up for nurses, as I stand up for seniors, as I stand up

for people who want a better deal -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - as I stand up for the person who is down and out; as I

try to represent what every member in this Legislature should represent.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: The Minister of Mines and Energy looks across the House.

He attacks the messenger. He does not deal with the message whatsoever.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): Order please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, that is standard for the government and we

hope that they will, sometime in the future, see the error of their ways.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to respond to my hon. colleague the

Member for Waterford Valley.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: No, debating Bill 27.

I would like to say to hon. members that Bill 27,

An Act To Amend The

Registered Nurses Act, is a very positive one. I would like to go back to some

of the things that my hon. colleague across the way has talked about.

I have to say, on behalf of government, that we had a hard decision to reach

last April, but since last April we have done many things to enhance the lives

of nurses in this Province. I'm sure all of you assembled in this House today

know how much government has invested in enhancing the lives of nurses, and all

those who work in health care all over this Province. We are hearing that

conversions are steadily progressing. In fact, 125 new positions are now almost

complete, and $2.3 million has been allotted to convert 540 casuals. I think all

of us who watched t.v. over the past months have seen how hard it is to actually

make those conversions, looking at an application file of about 26,000

applicants, all applying in rotation for 540 casual nursing positions. Of

course, on top of that we were able to provide $4 million for support staff, and

these are the people who assist nurses in their line of duty.

My hon. colleague across the way had just mentioned that this government is

not doing enough for seniors. I must say, I do take exception to that. Just last

summer my hon. colleague the Minister of Mines and Energy and myself had the

pleasure to turn the sod for a $10 million facility in Grand Falls-Windsor to

house our seniors. In fact, we have many facilities for our seniors, and most of

the Carmelite residents will be levels 3 and 4.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: So we are saying to hon. colleagues in this House that we do

make provisions for our seniors, and that is only one of the ways that we have

been doing that. In fact, we have announced $250,000 million in improved health

care facilities.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MS THISTLE: The Health Care Corporation of St. John's site

redevelopment; new hospitals, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville, Port au

Port, St. George's area, Harbour Breton.

I had the pleasure of going to Harbour Breton a few weeks ago with my hon.

colleagues on the Jobs and Growth consultations, and that was a surprising

visit, I will tell you. What a beautiful facility in Harbour Breton. Do you know

what I discovered? I had the privilege of attending six of those Jobs and Growth

consultations, and I will tell you I really got a surprise. All those presenters

were so positive, people were so professional in their approach to

presentations. They had an upbeat feeling about the economy in general. The

ideas that sprung forth from those Jobs and Growth consultations were amazing.

There were things that we had not heard of before.

When you say, you know, you are traveling all over the Province, hearing from

people, instead of making a decision for people behind closed doors, it is

amazing what you will find out when you are traveling all over the Province.

People will come forward with ideas. Not only ideas that will not work, but

ideas that are natural to where they live. We saw a lot of proposals that I know

Minister Tulk will work on over the winter. Many of those have things attached

to them that will generate good wealth for this Province.

I have to tell you what has been happening since 1997 for new funding for

Health and Community Services. We built a multipurpose facility for Grand Bank -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: What is that?

AN HON. MEMBER: We are on track (inaudible)

MS THISTLE: On track. Where? Fogo? Yes, I am sure the Member for

Twillingate & Fogo will be pleased to tell you that everything is on stream

and on track. More like on track, I guess, in the centre of Fogo. We have

announced a new facility for Fogo Island and Bonne Bay, and planning for the

needs of the hospital in Clarenville. The list goes on and on. We are addressing

health concerns all over this Province.

In fact, it was only two years ago that we had a need come forward for

dialysis in Grand Falls-Windsor. Do you know what has come out of that need? We

are finding that we have increased the population of Grand Falls-Windsor. Some

people are actually moving in -

MR. FITZGERALD: That is because Ray Hunter got elected. That is the

reason why people are moving into (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: I do not know about that now, because Ray Hunter is probably

going to move out.

MR. FITZGERALD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Bonavista

South.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is improper for a member of the House to refer to a

member by their name. They should refer to them by the district that they

represent.

MR. SPEAKER: I remind the minister that it is a valid point of order.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to the Member for

Windsor-Springdale. I am so used to calling to him by his first name. We are

close associates. In fact, he is one of my constituents and I know quite well

that he voted for me on February 9, 1996.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS THISTLE: I tell you, I believe it was his vote and all his family that

put me over the top February past.

MR. GRIMES: He has only asked to cross the floor three times so far, and

we will not take him.

MS THISTLE: Yes, in fact, I think he has strong leanings to the Liberal

Party, Mr. Speaker.

MR. GRIMES: Three times he has asked to cross the floor and John Efford

told him he isn't getting over here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, let the record show to the residents of

Windsor-Springdale that the current member is going to be continuing to be

working and running for the PC Party.

Anyway, we are on health care today. I would like to tell you how well health

care in working in this Province. About two or three years ago we had a long

list of people wanting to get into the senior home facilities. Since we

introduced the single entry system most people that want to occupy one of our

institutions can do so in a matter of about thirty days.

I want to tell you what else was spent in health care over the past few

months. Forty-seven million dollars was invested for health and community

service boards; there was a new community health centre for Old Perlican. Do you

know something, Mr. Speaker? We visited Labrador City and Wabush on the Jobs and

Growth consultations. We were not met by any angry nurses. I believe the nurses

out there understand the pressure that is on government's budget today, and

they also understand that we are working with nurses to try to resolve some of

their issues.

Some of the proposals that my hon. colleague, the Minister of Development and

Rural Renewal, will be working on over the winter will be surprising when they

actually get submitted for policy and also get submitted for approval. We have

some enterprising people out there who are willing to come forward with ideas.

In fact, we even had young people - every Jobs and Growth consultation that we

went to - we had young people come forward who needed no money from government,

who just had good ideas only and all the wherewithal to make sure that they were

instituted.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why didn't you have a meeting up in Plum Point?

MS THISTLE: Plum Point? I don't know but I am sure that my hon.

colleague, in his deliberations, will have an answer for you on that one. We

have added locations to the list since we started. In fact, my hon. colleague

said today that even Stephenville is going to be added to the list and there is

going to be -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: - meetings there on Saturday. When you get a cross-section of

over 1,300 people attending those economic conferences, you know people are

interested.

I have to tell you what is happening in the District of Grand Falls-Buchans

that makes the economy so positive. About two months ago, I had the opportunity

to go to an opening of a new building for Toromont Cat. Toromont Cat has just

started up a new business in Grand Falls-Windsor and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: I don't know, I cannot explain why you are not there. I

cannot explain that, but I can just tell you that I was there and the Minister

for Mines and Energy was there as well.

In fact, the Town of Grand Falls-Windsor has had a bumper year. Almost every

week this summer we have had the opportunity to cut ribbons at new

establishments. Grand Falls-Windsor is a service centre for about 75,000 people.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: I will tell you, when the fishing business is good,

communities like Grand Falls-Windsor do well.

My colleague, the Minister for Fisheries, who is reporting a bumper year,

already over $900 million in fish landings. In fact, I would say he is going to

reach the billion dollar mark. When the fishing industry is good, even urban

centres like Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Corner Brook, Clarenville, Marystown,

all of those places do well because people have extra money in their pockets

that they can go out and spend. That is what contributes to the economy overall

in this Province, but there is a different feeling out here.

When my colleague, the Minister for Finance, a few weeks ago announced a tax

decrease - you know, we had Chambers of Commerce all over the Province support

that initiative long before it was announced. We also had the Board of Trade,

business people, and people all over the Province saying they are looking at it

from this stance: that a tax deduction is a pay increase. No matter how you cut

it, a tax deduction is a pay increase on your cheque and everyone who pays

income tax. A tax deduction is a pay increase.

That pay increase from a tax deduction does not stay in my pocket and it does

not stay in your pocket. If anybody has any extra money to spend, they are going

to spend it. You just check all around this Province and ask the hardware stores

what was happening this summer. Most times you cannot get the second tin of

paint because they are running out. You ask Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

how much money they are putting out in RAP. People are repairing their homes;

hardware stores are busy. Ask the car dealers. When I was in the banking

profession, the two biggest indicators of the success of the economy were car

sales and housing starts.

MS S. OSBORNE: Do you know why car sales are up? The roads are so bad,

everybody got the daylights (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: We have the best road in the country - drive from St. John's

to Port aux Basques - the best Trans-Canada Highway we have ever had. It is a

delight to drive over the Trans-Canada Highway.

Now there is one exception, the Member for Windsor-Springdale would say, and

I would have to agreement with him. There is one

section of the Trans-Canada

Highway from Badger to South Brook that needs to be redone. I will agree with

the Member for Windsor-Springdale on that. However, generally speaking, from St.

John's to Port aux Basques it is a delight to drive over the Trans-Canada

Highway. It is a delight to drive over that road.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do many nurses drive over it?

MS THISTLE: Oh, I would imagine they do, and they do go into...

However, as I was saying, people who have extra money in their pocket to

spent, people who pay income tax, disposal income will be spent. It might be

spent on fixing up homes. It might be spent on buying RSPs. I read in the paper

a few days ago that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians contribute less to RSPs

than any other province in the country. Now, a lot of the reason might be

because they have been traditionally tied to a fishery. Also, a lot of people

have been traditionally tied to government jobs, where their pension is looked

after, but as the economy improves - and we are on that improvement track right

now - people will save more and they will spend more, a combination of both. I

don't think there is anybody in this House who can say, when they look around

at their districts - particularly you would notice it more in rural districts

than urban districts, there is a boom going on.

I think it was only a few days ago that somebody from The Telegram

said, as they were driving to work, they had not gone two or three blocks but

they could rack up millions and millions of dollars worth of expansion here in

the city alone. I will tell you, that is happening everywhere. Look at the new

homes being built in rural Newfoundland. Look at the new homes. Look at the new

cars in the driveway. You know, more people lease cars today than take out bank

loans to buy them. That is why the banks are so anxious to have things changed,

to change the insurance act and so on, because they want to be a financial

supermarket like everybody else.

A good indicator of the economy is how people are spending money. You just

look at the car sales around this Province. You do not see too many old cars on

the highway. Even though a former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

made changes to the motor vehicle act so that it would not be necessary to have

your car inspected, you can look around this Province, look on the highways -

pay particular attention when you are driving on the highways - there are not

too many old cars on the highways. That is a good indicator of how the economy

is going. Just look at the coach lines; they cannot keep up with the demand. In

fact, they have moved into Nova Scotia to pick up the tourism traffic and bring

it over here.

I had the opportunity this summer to go up on the Northern Peninsula and I

was surprised when I went to check out of the hotel the next morning. I said to

the girl on the counter: Gosh, you are pretty busy here. She said: Don't be

talking, we had to turn away sixteen couples last night. She had to turn away

sixteen couples. They had to drive from St. Anthony right back to Rocky Harbour

- no room at the inn. That tells you a lot of things.

We had a bustling summer in tourism here in this Province. I know; I stayed

at a good number of bed and breakfast establishments because I wanted to find

out myself, firsthand, what people were saying when they visited a bed and

breakfast. What did tourists want to find here? Were they pleased with the

services? How could we improve the services?

In fact, in Grand Falls-Windsor we are trying to develop a tourism package

where we can have people stay two or three nights instead of coming in on the

bus, going over to the drugstore and then taking off again the next morning. We

have been working hard with communities all around in the Exploits Valley to try

to come up with a package that would convince people to stay for two or three

days so we can get a share of those tourism dollars, instead of having to move

outside in some of the other well-known attractions around the Province.

In fact next summer the community of Millertown, which does not even have a

population of quite100 people right now, will be celebrating 100 years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Ninety-odd.

They will be celebrating 100 years in the year 2000.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many live in Millertown Junction.?

MS THISTLE: Oh, I know how many live in Millertown Junction - just cabin

owners.

In fact, I had the opportunity a year ago to travel the Gaff Topsails, and I

had a look at the quarry site where quarrying went on years ago. It was one of

the most interesting sites I have ever seen.

MS KELLY: I can confirm that.

MS THISTLE: My colleague, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology,

accompanied me. We had a welcome day. I was thinking to myself, as I was driving

along that trail way, what a wonderful tourist attraction. It is just basically

pristine and totally undiscovered. There is so much to see in Newfoundland and

Labrador. You just fall in love with the Province every time you get out of the

city and have a look for yourself.

When you think about the celebrations, a little, tiny community in Millertown

- first when I went up to the Millertown festival, I could not get over what I

saw. The fire department had bought tarpaulins at Canadian Tire. This is how

people work in a small community. They had bought tarpaulins and the woman -

their wives, partners and spouses - sat at a sewing machine in the fire

department in Millertown and actually sewed all the tarpaulins together. It was

to be a roof and walls to cover over the concert area. It was almost as big as

this House of Assembly. It was such an amazing thing for a handful of people to

do. When I went up there and walked inside, oh, my gosh! I said: I cannot

believe that a few people were able to put off such major event.

A lot of the people in Millertown are senior citizens. It is amazing what

they were able to do. They use that Millertown wildlife festival to almost

pretty well look after the running of their fire department for the whole year.

I will tell you, their fire department is pretty well-equipped. They have a

pretty industrious community of people.

If you go up to Buchans - a while ago, the Premier and myself had the

opportunity to open up a new school in Buchans, a $3 million school, so that

children from Buchans, Buchans Junction and Millertown will have the latest - in

fact, the very latest - when it comes to good education facilities in this

Province. You know what is different about that school? The fact that, after the

school closes in the afternoon, we can leave that school open, one part of it,

so residents of the three communities can come in and sit down to a computer,

and they are already hooked up to Internet services. They have a library there

that everybody can use, and they have a gymnasium that everybody can use.

That is what is happening around this Province. We are building smarter, we

are doing things wiser, and we are making more use of public facilities.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: At one time, a school was generally used for school

activities only. Now the community uses the school, and why shouldn't they?

That is what should be done.

Yes, we have invested heavily. We have invested heavily in health care, very

heavily in health care. In fact, since 1997 there was $10 million from the

National Child Benefit reinvested in programs for families and their children;

$6 million for Meditech financial and statistical information systems in the

Labrador Peninsulas and western; $1.3 million for implementation of the new

Youth, Child and Family Services Act, services for sixteen-year-olds and

seventeen-year-olds; and $900,000 over three years for Provincial Tobacco

Reduction Strategy.

I will tell you, when I was elected three years ago, almost four now, we

started off with a budget in health care for $900 million. You know, that is

gone now to $1.3 billion almost. So, when you say there has not been any

investments in health care, I think you had better think again. In fact, there

has been a $32 million Memorandum of Understanding reached with physicians all

over this Province.

We are attempting to close the gap on physician salaries in Atlantic Canada.

At the beginning of negotiations we had 195 salaried physicians, and during 1998

and 1999 this increased by thirty-three; seventeen GPs and sixteen specialists.

Not only that. The 1999-2000 budget provided funding to recruit an additional

thirty-five salaried physicians. So, we are moving forward in health care. We

are moving forward in a lot of initiatives around this Province.

Just recently, I had the pleasure of attending another opening in Grand

Falls-Windsor for a physiotherapy and wellness operation in Grand Falls-Windsor.

I think that brings to three, the private facilities for physiotherapy alone in

Grand Falls-Windsor.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Well, I have nothing to do with the invitation list. I just

receive invitations and I gladly attend because I am proud to attend.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: Now, if you would like for me to make a call on your behalf,

my colleague from Windsor-Springdale - it might be because you are busy or I

guess you are attending to your district and other parts of the district, but I

am sure it is entirely up to the people who open these establishments and own

these establishments who they would like to invite.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: I have nothing to do with private enterprise. I am just

pleased when private enterprise decide to open up a new facility.

In fact, a computer firm - the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology

today announced the ONLINE success that has been going on. Well, one of the

businesses that has been reaping that success is a new computer firm in Grand

Falls-Windsor called DPSI. They started out in the community college with about

twelve people employed. In fact, now they are moving out to new facilities and

they have expanded their workforce to twenty-eight.

Do you know something? That happened because one of our economic development

officers went to SoftWorld 98 here in St. John's. As you know, there was a

lot of networking done. Sometimes you hear a lot of criticism spent on money

sending people here and there all over the country, and you wonder sometimes if

we are going to reap the benefits from that.

Well, here is a classic example of where money spent on economic development

is working. In fact, since that company moved to Grand Falls-Windsor, that same

economic development officer just went to Vancouver at SoftWorld 99, and that

was the conference that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology just

referred to in her Ministerial Statement. Since that, he has made another

contact and it looks quite likely that we will be able to attract two more

businesses to Grand Falls-Windsor from those initial contacts.

In fact, those businesses complement each other. Computer businesses and

information technology companies, they breed - one that comes - they always like

another partner because one attracts the other one.

AN HON. MEMBER: They cluster.

MS THISTLE: In fact, they cluster. Not only that, but with five private

colleges in Grand Falls-Windsor we are now able to have these colleges designed

and teach and produce a program that will be applicable to those computer

companies. Can you see the benefits of bringing in a company like that to an

area that has not worked or lived or produced or set up there before? It can

only mushroom. The indirect benefits of having a company like that is probably

five to one.

What I am trying to say is that there is a feeling of optimism all over this

Province, and with the initiatives that this government is bringing forward on a

daily basis it will only grow. There is a positive feeling all around. I know

all of us that walk through our districts every week can sense it. I can.

Before the Minister of Tourism came in, I was telling this hon. House how

busy it has been this summer. I had the opportunity to actually stay many nights

in bed and breakfast establishments for the first time and I was very impressed.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS THISTLE: In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell hon. members

that this is a wonderful time to be a part of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is 4:19 p.m. Let me write that down, because I would not want to belabor

the point.

I am very pleased today to have an opportunity to stand and say a few words

on Bill 27. I listened attentively, I say, to the President of the Treasury

Board's comments and the bright picture she attempted to paint of what is

happening in Newfoundland and Labrador as it relates to the investment of money

into health care. Indeed, it makes you wonder. If everything is so bright in

many places, why are so many concerns, so many problems and so many issues being

raised in this House on a daily basis? If everything is so glowing in health

care, in rural Newfoundland and in the minister's eyes, why does the Member

for Ferryland have to be on his feet every day raising concerns and issues in

this House related to health care in this Province?

I listened to the President of Treasury Board as she talked about spending

$2.3 million on converting 540 casual nurses to 125 new positions. I mean, that

is a paltry amount. They are doing that since last April. Last April that

process started and it is not finished yet. According to the President of

Treasury Board, there are 26,000 people in the application file. There was $4

million for support staff, I say, Mr. Speaker.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: I will get back to the leadership campaign in a minute, I

say to the Member for Port de Grave.

Four million dollars for support staff, $10 million, according to the

President of Treasury Board -

MR. TULK: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Pardon? Does the Government House Leader have a problem?

MR. TULK: No, I have no problem.

MR. MANNING: I will give you the opportunity to have a word, if you want

to have it.

MR. TULK: No, I do not want (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Okay, alright then.

Mr. Speaker, I ask for protection.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MANNING: I am here trying to make a few points about the health care

in this Province.

MR. TULK: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: I would rather talk to you outside the House, I say to the

Government House Leader.

I am here trying to make a few comments on the health care in this Province

and I am getting attacked by the Government House Leader. Mr. Speaker, I would

ask for your protection. Thank you.

If I could get back to the comments of the President of Treasury Board as

they relate to health care, the minister said there was $4 million for support

staff, $10 million in G