VOL. 2 PRELIMJNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPI' HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY EDR 'IHE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY I JUNE 8 I 1977 NO. 114

June 8, 1977 Tape no. 3984 Page 1 - ms The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: Order, please! 0 0 0 I recognize the han. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, before we move to Statements by Ministers, I move that the rules of this House be suspended for today to permit the coverage by radio and television of ~he proceedings of this House whilst the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), the han. Premier and the hon. Leader of the Opposition are speaking in ~elation to a statement that ~as been indicated to me that the hon. member for Twillingate will make. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I wish to second the motion, Sir. My understanding is that it is in respect only of the opening procedures and that following the statements by the gentleman from Twillingate and the Premier and myself -, and any other hon. member who wishes to speak in respect of that matter, we will then revert to regular procedure. Sir, we gladly consent. Sir, I think. it would be wrong in every way of us not to consent. We gladly do consent. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must ask whether the han. Minister of Justice has leave to move this motion? MR. NEARY: The hon.

Minister of Justice has my approval, Sir, to move the motion. I think that this milestone in our history should be recorded, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. CARTER: The hon. member for St. John's North. No, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Boo! Boo' Boo! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Shame! Shame! Shame! MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 11201

June 8, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. SMALLWOOD: Tape no. 3984 Page 2 - ms The bon. member for Twilling~te. On a point of personal privilege. Mr. Speaker, I am now in my twenty-fifth year as an elected member of this House, but long b~fore I was elected, I had had a lot of experience.of this House. For it is now sixty years, over sixty years, since as a schoolboy at Bishop Feild Colleg~ _ and later as a working newspaperman, I began to sit in the gallery to listen to such parliamentary giants as Sir Robert Bond, Sir Edward Morris, W. F. Coaker, A. B. Morine, Michael P. Cashin, W. J. Higgins, John R. Bennett, Cyril J.

Fox, James Mary Kent, w. J. Walsh, Sir Richard Squires, Doctor Arthur Barnes, L. E. Emerson, and others whose names used to be household words in Newfoundland and in some cases still are. When I first began to haunt the House of Assembly as a visitor there were still hundreds of people living in Newfoundland who remembered the coming of Representative Government in 1832. There were thousands still living who took part, who had taken

part in the election of the first House of Assembly under Responsible Government in 1855. Therewere still living many of those who had campa~gned in the 1869 general election that was fought primarily on the question of Confederation with Canada. My own grandfather, David Smallwood, was one of them. I had had the honour to know personally every Premier of Newfoundland in the present century, the Right Honourable Sir Robert Bond, the Right Honourable Sir Edward Morris, the Right Honourable Sir William Lloyd, Sir Michael Cashin, the Right Honourable Sir Richard Squires, :11..202

June 8,1977 Tape 3985 A.P.:-1 :'fR. S~rALUiOOD: 1-l .R. lllarren, Albert E. Hickman, y. S. Honroe, F.C.

Alderdice,and the Premier of the ~resent time,five of them elected by the people, five of them who held office for short neriods only. ;~ow ~v"l-tether or not the media report its deliberations at anything more than minimum length, \vhether or not the ~eneral public pay anything more than passin~ interest, the irrefragable fact is that this is ~e"tvfoundland' s supreme and sovereign lawmakin~ body, the body to which the government are ahrays res?onsible, the high court of parliament, the only elected representative of all the people .

Hembership here is a high honour for anv man or \voman ~for this House, more than any other body in the Province ,has the po•.-rer to 1!'.ake or b reak Ne"tvfoundland. As I have said,I am nct.r in my t1-1enty-fifth vear as a member of this House and for months past I have been wondering why I am here. It is not as though I get muc~1 pleasure from being here.

I \vas too long at the helm not to know the nature of the work, the ceaseless cares, the ceaseless crises and the ceaseless complexities of the Premiersh .ip.. --L1ims at the.....!"!.elm. too long to be. happy or efficient nm.r in the daily round of criticism.I am not good at it, Mr. Speaker, I have no taste for it, and so "t.;hile I sit here as an C'P1JOSition backbencher I feel that I am but occupying the seat of someone ~.;ho -v10uld be more useful to my colleagues, to my district, to the House and to the Province.

Of course,if the Premier cared to exchange seats with me I might reconsider the matter.I am not sure,however, that my colleagues here would tvelcome the Premier to their caucus, or that the members across Hould exult to have me in theirs. ~fR. LmiDRIGAN: Go on over, 'Frank'. HR.. SHALUlOOD : Now in that matter, Mr. Speaker, allo\v me to give the House fair Harning t.hat it had better not jump to the conclusion that when I leave here today it ~·lill have seen the last of the Smallwoods.

For in the gallery at this very moment there are t"t•70 other Smalh10ods, ·another Joey Smalhmod,mv grandson ,and his infant son,Joey Srnallw·ood III, mv great-gra!'dson. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 11203

June 8 , 1977 Tap e 3985 !;..R-2 !-IR. SM...ALUTOOD : I have reminded the House already that my own life overlapped the lives of some Net.rfoundlanders who were alive in 1832. If my great-grands .on Joey lives to be as old as I am now he will then represent nearly two and a qua.rter centuries of the Newfoundland political history,and I wish no worse luck

· ~ June 8,1977 Tape 3986 AH-1 }·ffi..

SMALLWOOD: on Ray Guy and ~.Jickford Collins than that they should have the ineffable pleasure, unendurably prolonged,to imagine Ne~vfoundland in the year 2052 as the locale of a joyous political contest between my great-grandson, Joey,and the present Premier's grandson, Frankie, perhaps 1vith Ed's grandson, Eddie ,leading the ~~P, that is unless Steve's grandson succeeds in capturing that leadership, always bearing in mind hmvever the possibility of John Crosbie's grandson, Johnnie, leading the seventh or eighth political party graced by the ~1elhknown ~lovable Crosbie charisma. SOME RON MEMBERS: r~ .

S~ALL HOOD : Hear, hear! Hr. Speaker, this will by my last day here as a member of the House,and in case there should be any curiosity as to how I intend to occupy my mind and my time may answer is that I ~vill write and edit books and Publish them, one book a year,and that they will all be about our Province and our people and our Province's history and they will try to portray the strength and greatness, the romance and poetry, the beauty and courage of Newfoundland and Labrador both.

And I will endeavour thereby to inform and stimulate the pride and confidence of Newfoundlanders in their Province and in themselves,and at the same time strive to help our fellow Canadians the better tn understand Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders and to understand what Canada gained as ~v-ell as what she gave when Tve became part of her. In 1937 I published ~!olumes 1 and II of the Book of ~J e~v-foundland, thirty years later, in 1967, r'olumes III and IV, in 1975 ~;olumes V and vr.:...ry ambition is to publish "olumes VII and VIII in 1982 ,and uolumes IX and X in 1986.

All of this,of course,Deo volente,which means God 1villing. I feel sincerely that I can perhaps serve ~Jewfoundland better 1-Tith hooks t~an I can do 1vith speeches to be made from this desk. From many parts of Canada I continue in increasing numbers to receive invitations to address schools and colleges, ~otary Clubs and Canadian Clubs, churches and Chambers of Commerce, 1earned 11205

June 8,1977 Tape 3986 AH-2 ::VIR • SHALJ ... HOOD : societies and a variety of other bodies. I have in the past accepted only a very small number of these invitations~ hut in the present state of national affairs in Canada~especially the danger of Quebec separatism,! wonder whether it might be useful to the country of mv choice, Canada, if I participate more often in the public discussion across our nation. But this would conflict severely '·dth my duty to this Rouse and to the district that I . represent here.

So I had to make a choice of all th@ provinces nf Canada, Newfoundland would suffer more grievously from the breakup of Canada and I incline to the view that I can perhans serve ~ewfoundlaod better by ioining actively in the effort to preserve the unity of Canaca than I can do ry continuing to sit here as a backbench member of the Opposition.

I go frmn the House today ~vith gratitude in my heart for the kindness shm,'!l me here, for the graciousness of the neonle of ~villingate district,and for the lnng and patient generosity of the peonle of Newfoundland and Labracor~ given almost undeviatingly to me down through the years. In my twenty-fifth year as one of its members I leave the House of Assembly as I entered it, a life-long believer in the principles of I.iberalism, an enthusiastic Confederate and Canadian,and "YTith unchanging faith in the destiny of this Province. SO'ME RON • M81EERS : Hear! Hear! 1.1206

June 3, 1977 Tape No. 3987 ~~. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREi-!IER NOORES: Mr. Speaker, this day is one of great significance in the history of this hon. House. It is a da~ I would suggest, when ' tribute should be paid for the contribution that the member for Twillingate has made over the past quarter of a century. There has been lots of NM- 1 opportunities in the past to criticize some of the accomplishments, or lack of them,he had in his regime,and history will deal one way or the other with that same twentv-five vP.:.:~rs in t'h~> fnt'nT"~>.

But on an occasion like this I ~vould suggest a tribute should be paid to the individual, the sacrifice and what it has meant to the people of this Province. This is the day chosen by the most successful politician in Newfoundland's history to be the last in which he will appear as an elected representative of the people of this Province. It is a day on which the House must wish Godspeed to the han. member for Twillingate, "the little fellow from Gambo", Joseph Roberts Smallwood.

At a time like this it is so easy I suppose for political foes ,which all of us. on this side of the House have been and I suggest some on the other,at various times,but really what we are talking here about today is to talk about the man, the raconteur extraordinaire, the dynamic personality who went at anything in all directions but certainly was moving at all times. And some of the anecdotes of course if you started to relate them about the han. member for Twillingate could go on forever because he has had a colourful career and one which we all are so familiar with.

As most hon. members know, the former Premier,as an example,was an unrepentent name-dropper, and this trait has excited and enriched us from time to time. Can you imagine, Sir, the hon. gentleman relaxing in conversation with the incomparable :11207

june 8, 1977 Tape . o. 3987 PREMIER ~100RES : Winston Churchill and as he would say, "~ot once, not twice but three times." C,an you imagine what that says for Mr. Churchill's stamina in itself, Sir. Or dodging his Russian escort in JIIIoscow as he paraded through .P.·1 - 2 the streets and then in a search for a retired Nikita Khrushche'V who was on that particular occasion as lucky as Castro was more recently. But on and o~ it goes and the anecdotes of course go on forever, ~ut _Sir, today I would like to be a little more serious.

Parl~entary assemblies are houses of transients •, members come and members go,. the majority of them little noted no·r long remembered. In some few the fires of ability, of ambition, or of commitment to the public service burn with a fitful brilliance that briefly i.l1uminates the political fermament. In very rare individuals those fires burn with a steady incandescence of the fixed and 11208

June 8, 1977 Tape no. 3988 Page 1 - ms Premier Moores. constant star.whose light remains even when its source is no longer physically present. Joe Smallwood has had an impact on this Province. Sir, I think no one would say that he was anything but one of those rare individuals. Parliamentary Assemblies are also Houses of partisans. Espousing differing philosophies of government, differing views of economics, differing methodologies of administration, we set ourselves at political enmity one with the other.

And yet in so many ways we are united, united in the desire to serve the people we represent and to foster the best interests of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is because of this unity, this unity of purpose and desire,that this House can, on this occasion, on an occasion such as this, lay partisanship to one side; that I, who could never be mistaken as a political friend of the han. member, can stand here and offer to him my praise for those good things that he has dbne, / as Mr.

Trudeau did for John Diefenbaker, as political foes from time immemorial across the parliamentary system and in the free world have done,so it gives me pleasure today to honour and pay some tribute to the han. member for Twillingate. I do not ask you to believe that at this instant of his departure from the House, Mr. Smallwood will suddenly and magically be translated into a universally beloved figure. The strongest lights indeed cast the darkest shadows,and I expect that there still will be those who retain the capacity to hate with a proper passion.

But love or hate as you will - and in the case of the han. gentleman you can hardly be indifferent - there is none who can deny the enormous significance of his impact upon Newfoundland during the past forty years. Who is this man whom we speak of today? Who is Joey Smallwood that we should pay tribute to him? I do not propose to offer, Mr. Speaker, this House a biography. He is too well-known. ~1209

June 8, 1977 Tape no. 3988 Page 2 - ms j'remier Mool"es. I do not propose to offer my version of the history of our times. I merely propose to state simply and directly why, in my opinion, political friends and foes alike should join to offer to pay him tribute of genuine appreciation. We are an open and democratic society. Our masters are the people. For just about a quarter of a century the people gave to Joe Smallwood their support, their affection, their trust.

To disavow the significance of such tribute would not only be churlish but a foolish assault upon those principles which we profess to be among the chief bastions of the liberties which we enjoy. But what did the people see in the man that they should thus have honoured him? They say, first of all, one who told them uho and what they were~and one who gave them reasons to be proud of their heritage, confident of their capacities, and hopeful for their futures.

At a juncture when national despondency was not an imagined maladyi when events conspired to demonstrate that the mastery of our destiny was, perhaps, beyond our competence; when the propensity to accept the label of inferiority was a compelling threat; when our political and economic fortunes were at their nadir; it was Joey Smallwood who drew upon his sense of history, his store of historical and pseudo-historical lore, his imagination, and his passionate convictions to seli Newfoundland to Newfoundlanders and even Newfoundlanders to themselves.

In following this course, Joe Smallwood displayed the skills of a consummate journalist. His style, it is true, did not display the shocking , flamboyant brilliance of Robert John Parsons at his best, the analytical acidity of P. T. McGrath; the controlled scurrility of John Valentine Nugent, nor the comedy~of one type or another,of Ray Guy. But in his own inimitable fashion he spoke in simple but compelling language to ordinary people about 1.1210

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 3989 EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES: ordinary things. And all he said and wrote,whether an historical anecdote, tall-tale, biographical vignette or current comment, the themes of love of country, pride in its people and their heritage, confidence in its future were always dominant. And Newfoundlanders responded to him,both to the man and .to the message. What else did they see?

They saw the Father of Confederation, the builder who took a set of rejected plans that had been gathering dust for nearly a century, refurbished them anew, adapted them with skill and art to the materials at his disposal,and completed the edifice that had been defied so much previous effort. It is perhaps true that John A. MacDonald was right and that the plum would, in any case, have fallen into the Canadian basket. But, Mr. Speaker, in the cool Atlantic fogs plums ripen slowly,and Joe Smallwood is not the man to twiddle his thumbs while natural processes work slowly towards fruition.

Once he had seen the vision he was not about to lose sight of it, but with the dynamism and vigour that are his trademarks, set out to overpower all opposition to achiev~ its reality. In accomplishing this purpose,he displayed those masterful political skills that assured his pre-eminence in public life for years to follow,and which evoked the grudging admiration even of those who were his bitterest opponents.

Now these political skills were one other aspect of what the people saw to admire in him,for they were the kind of skills based on an empathy with the aspirations of the common man, on an ability to express those aspirations in common language, on a capacity to touch the people where they lived and what they felt, on the veritable magic of disassociation through which, while the government might seem to be alien and remote, the Premier was open and accessible as one of the people ought to be.

Here was not a remote Olympian secluded on the eight floor of the Confederation Building, but a common man with whom the last lone fisherman on the bill of Cape St. George felt he could identify. Did fact accord that with reality? The answer, really, Mr. Speaker, is irrelevant. Whether true or illusion, the master politician created a situation in which the distinction really did not matter. Next they saw the consumate parliamentarian. For over twenty years he dominated this House both as a strategist and as a tactical debater. A student of parliament and 1.1211.

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 3989 EC - 2 PREMIER MOORES: parliamentarians,and steeped in the history and lore of the Newfoundland Assembly, he knew the rules and traditions of the House as few, if any, of his contemporaries did. He also knew how to use those rules to his advantage and to that of his party. With a deftness of touch and masterly control he moved the House as he would have it move and the people followed.

Not infrequently he called from his crammed memory .anecdotes not only from Newfoundland's political past, but from the mother of parliaments; the names of Morris and Squires, of Bond and Coaker might well be said in the same breath with those of Churchill, Asquith, Disraeli and Gladstone. Whenever examples were required to point a moral, to illuminate a tradition, to explain a rule or to score a decisive debating poin.t, they were readily available on the member's tongue.

But Joe Smallwood was more than the , .. :~r. f • _. • \ • - ...-. - ... consumate parliamentarian, more than the shrewd politician - he was also the Radical Populist Walking in the steps of William Coaker, Joey led an outport movement and drew his strength and succour from that source. It was Joey -who remembered Coaker's - forgotten people, who marshalled them in the army of Confederation, who polarized the electorate, who bullied and threatened the merchants and bosses who enjoyed privileges denied to the vast majority. In so doing, he claimed the fruits of the seeds that Coaker planted.

And if the Populism inherited from Coaker was tempered by the vision of industr~al society drawn from Sir Richard Squires, and even if the spirit of Squires ultimately prevailed, it was the Populist appeal that gave him his broad base of power and that will ensure for him an enduring place in the history of our Province. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I believe that one of the strongest reasons why I am able to express this tribute to Joe Smallwood relates to a sense in which he is not a typical Newfoundlander.

Newfoundlanders for the most part when they are faced with formidable tasks are prone to begin by calculating all the reasons for not doing it. Not infrequently, when the list of negative arguments :11212

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 3990 NM- 1 PRE-HER ~~OORES : is tabulated there is sufficient reason for inaction. Joey oPerates and operated in precisely the opposite direction. His style is to find all the reasons for doing something and then to proceed,come Hell or high 1vater .. to do i~ . - right or wrong. This is definitely not a Newfoundland characteristic but neither,I think, does it derive from Prince __ Edward Island, Mr. Speaker.

It is in fact but one of the paradoxical elements that mix in Joe Smallwood to make him a phenomenon,unique in our timet the dominant politician of our age, the Newfoundland parliamentarian par excellence, the only living Father of Confederation. His future,! am sure,will be dedicated to the well-being of the Province and,thank God,in a non-partisan way And having said that, Sir, I and the people on this side of the House, wish him God speed and good health. SO~ HON • ~1EMBERS : Hear! Hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, Sir, may I pay tribute to the very gracious gesture of the Minister of Justice, the House Leader for the government. I thought his request made at the start of today's proceedings showed magnaminity and generosity. I know he sfloke for the Premier and the Cabinet and, I believe,for every member of the House ·•wi th one exception. I regret that his gesture was not accented.

I think this House has been put in a position where we have been demeaned and I think this Province has been demeaned • I think we are all the loeers because the gesture, the request made by the ~inister of Justice as the House Leader for the largest groun in the House,~vas not accepted. Mr. Speaker, it is right and proper that t:ne D.ouse observe this event because today's happenings are a milestone in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador. The departure 11213

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 3990 ~- 2 MR. ROBERTS : of the hon. 9:entleman from Tw;ll;ng .ate (Mr Small d) ~ ... .... .·.l • . woo from the public Horld, his resignation from the House and his retirement into private life ,is a ;r.omentous event. It is yet another stage, possibly the penultimate one,in the career of the man who is certainly the ~reatest Newfoundlander of our time,and may well be the greatest to stride the stage of our 500 years and more of recorded history. It will be strange to say the least not to have the member for Twillingate (Hr. Smalhrood) as a member of this House.

As he has told us,he has served here for twenty-five years. Hhat he did not say~but what must be said,is that for those twenty-five years he stood out as the colossus of our public life. It is thirty years, ~r. Speaker, almost to the day since the gentleman from Twillingate first raised the banner of the cause ~vhich became his life' e ~•ork. It would not be just nor would it be fair to say that the history of our country these last thirty years can be written in terms of his· life alone. But it must be said, Hr.

Speaker, that his life and his work was central and essential; and that without the gentleman from Twillingate the last thirty years in Newfoundland and Labrador would not have unfolded as they did. Confederation is the crowing glory of the hon. gentleman's life. It is an achievement of which any man could be justly proud. It enshrines his name along~ide those of the other men who made Canada, Sir John A. HacDonald and George Brown, the or~ginal Fathers of Confederation, Sir T.Jilfred Laurier, William Lyon ~facKenzie King, Louis St. Laurent, the men ~o made Confederation work.

Confederation was his cause, Sir, and a noble cause it ~•as. Today,looking back unon the quarter century and more which have nassed since we became part of Canada, it is easy to forget that the battle, to use a familiar phrase, was a near won thing, The hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), Sir, made the cause his own. Witrout the conviction with ~vhich he embraced it, the 1.1214

June 8,1977 Tape 3991 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: eloquence 'tvith 'tvhich he advocated it and the courage 'tvith which he defended it, the Confederate cause, Sir, 't¥ould not have carried the day. There is no Newfoundlander today, Hr. Speaker, no Labradorian today,not one single one of us living between ~ape Race and Cape Chidley,H'hose life is not immen~e_ly the better because we are today Canadians. The union has been a happy one and a fruitful one. There are those v1ho say the union tvas not perfect.

To them · I say t~at hindsight makes geniuses of all of us and perfection is a state which cannot be achieved by human beings. Confederation,the joining of the ancient land of Newfoundland and Labrador tvith Canada~ that, Sir, "IoTas a great and a crowning event in our history. The name of the han. gentleman from Ttvillingate t-Till forever be inseparably linked tvith it. My mm feelings, Hr. Speaker, as you - I can imagine,are deep and strong.

I stand here today not simply as the Leader of the Opposition or even as the leader of the Liberal party.but as a man Hho has worked closely with the hon.gentleman from Twillingate for the +ast fifteen years or so. It is no secret we have had our differences, Indeed,three years ago the whole- - Province 't·las entertained for a number of months as we resolved those differences. The general election Hhich follm.;red saw another effort to resolve those differences. It is idle to rewrite history as tempting as it may be.

Our differences were real and they were fundamental.mut I do 'tvant to say now,as I have said before,that there t..ras no bitterness nor malice on either side. The hon. gentleman from Ttv-illingate. I lcnoT!l the Premier lvould concur,-is a worthy opponent. ~ political struggle with him in many ways exemplifies the very best of what political life in the parlimentary system of dernocracy.is all about. As I have noted, Sir, the hon.gentleman and I have worked closely together during the final years of his Premiership of this Province.

I tvas his executive assistant and then subsequentlY ris parlimentary assistant -and then, follm;ring that, a member of his Cabinet and eventually his successor as leader of this party. l•!hile tve did not always agree,and indeed.sometimes, Sir, disagreed strongly,I treasure 11215

June 8,1977 Tape 3991 AH-2 r'lR.. ROBERTS : our relationship. To me, Hr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from TvTillingate in a great many ways represents the very best of Newfoundland and Labrador,and the best of the qualities that go to make uu leadership. ~fy acquaintance with public life, Sir, is not nearly as extensive as his,but over the last fifteen years or so I have come to knmv many of the leading figures in political life in this Province and in Canada.

The knmv-ledge and experience that I have gained from those friendships,bolstered by a deep reading in political history and the biographies of nolitical figures,have led me to the very firm conviction, Sir, that the t-.:.,ro highest qualities that any man can exemplify are courage and compassion. To me, Sir, these are the qualities \•7hich mark a man: the courage to stand by ·his beliefs even if the whole ~vorld hot.rls against them,and the compassion to care for those who are less fortunate and to devote one's energies and abilities to trying to help them.

I mean it to be high praise indeed \vhen I say that the hon. gentleman from Twillingate is a man of O.eep compassion and a man of staunch and steadfast courage! ~Pratefully happy, Sir, that the hon. gentleman leaves public life as he entered it, a member of the Liberal party. Forgetting the differences that may have occurred, they are all behind us now. The important note and the joyful one, Sir, is that the hon. gentleman from Twillingate,as he has told us\has come home to Liberalism. It is right and fitting that he do so. It is where he belongs. In years to come, Mr.

Speaker, all of us in this House \vill relate \vith pride that we served in the House of Assembly with the hon. gentleman from T~villingate. It matters not \vhether ~ve follmved him politically or oonosed him politically; our boast ,.,ill be that we knew him and served with him in a corrmon interest,that of the people of i'Te,.rfoundland and Labrador. As an elected politican, ~~r. Speaker, the han. gentleman from Twillingate • .. rill soon be no more. He tells me that shortly he will send Your Honour a letter in his O\vn 11216

.· June 8 , 1977 Tape 3991 NR. ROBERTS: hand resigning his seat in this House. He w·ill then rise and bow to Your Honour and for the last time leave this chamber as a member of this House of Assembly. In due course, ~r. Speaker, there will be another member for Twillingate ,but there will never be another Joey Smallt¥ood. All of us, Sir, .... SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. ROBERTS : All of us , :11217

June 8, 1977 Tape 3992 Jr.! - 1 MR. ROBERTS: every Nel~oundlander and every Labradorian, Sir, must acknowledge that.\nel equally lve must acknO't·Yledge the contribution which he has made to this land, this land he loves so dearly and this land to >-Thich he has devoted his life. It is a time to rise above pettiness and partisanship. Joey Smallwood has served his country and his Province well, Sir. Let us remember it and let us honour him for it. Yesterday, M~. Speaker, I was in St. Anthony on the far northern tip of the Island of Newfoundland •.

Early in the morning I watched as ~erhaps many other han. members did the service of thanksgiving ~.:rhich lvas held to mark the silver jubilee of our Sovereign Lady the Oueen. Impressive and magnificent are strong adjectives,but they are scarcely adequate to describe those services. I was thrilled to my very marrow. The services, Sir, were held in St. Paul's Cathedral, that glorious structure in the heart of the city of London. As Your Honour ~rill recall, St. Paul's "ras the creation of Sir Christopher Hren, a great Christian and a great architect. He lies there today, ~r.

Speaker, entombed in the crypt underneath his supreme creation. On it, Sir, is engraved one of the noblest epitaphs that I have ever encountered, "Si monumentum requiris ,, circumspice." 11If you would seek his monument·, look about you. It will be many years yet, Mr. Speaker, before any of us writes an epitaPh to honour the hon. gentleman from Twillingate. But today, Sir, as he leaves public life surely there could be no more fitting tribute than to adapt those words which I have just read. I say to those who would seek the result of Joey Smalh.rood' s life work for Newfoundland and Labrador, look about you.

Long, Sir, may his big jib dra•.r. SOME HC'~1. ~-1E}fEERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to have a fe"1 words on the resignation of my colleague, the member for ~.rillingate, the former Premier of this Province. Now, Xr. Speaker, in paying tribute :11218

June 8, 1977 Tape 3992 .Df - 2 ~~ .• NEARY: to the han. gentleman, Sir, there are so many as~ects of the hon. gentleman's life that you could talk about. Looking back over the sixteen years that I have been a member of this hon. House,I suppose I could take the whole afternoon to tell the House about some of the exciting and dramatic experiences that I had as a supporter of the government first,and then as a member of the hon. gentleman's cabinet.

We could talk about all the mining developments, the Premier of the day going around the Province with his silver spade. 1~e could talk about the building of Confederation Building, all the fish plants, the hundreds and thousands of schools that the hon. gentleman keeps reminding us that his administration built, all the hosoitals that were built under the gentleman's administration and so on and so on, and we could go on and on and on for hours and hours talking about the accomplishments and the failures of the administration that the hon. gentleman headed up in this Province for twenty-three years.

But in my o~inion, Sir, the most outstanding attributes in my opinion about the hon. gentleman is,first of all, I would say was his loyalty and his dedication to Newfoundland and to the people of this Province. Hr. Speaker, I had never met in my life a gentleman~and I say this With all sinceri~who was as loyal to his friends as my han. friend, the member ;for Twillingate, and sometimes to his detriment. And I have never in my life met a man, Sir, who had such strong feelings for ordinary people as the han. member for Twillingate,and I would say that YTas another one of the hen. gentleman's outstanding attributes.

And I would place above all this, Sir, the fact that the .gentleman was extremely loyal, dedicated to his friends and to Newfoundland and his feeling for the ordinary people of this P~ovince,but I believe it is fitting today, 11r. Speaker, that so many young people should appear in the galleries to watch and hear the hon. member for TY1illingate, the former Premier of this Province, make his farewell speech in this han. House and resign from active politics because, Sir, I believe that one of the most outstanding accomolishments of the hon. gentleman's administration was to give the young people of 11219

June 8, 1977 Tape 3992 ,no - 3 MR. NEARY: this Province opportunities to use their talents. We can talk about the ad'V'ances that we made in the field of health and in the field of water and sewerage, high't>mys, smashing the isolation in this Province, but I believe the one thing that we can point to that laid the foundation for the future of this Province is what we have accomplished in the field of education and the opportunities that we have given our young people.~ether or not they use them wisely, Sir, is not the fault of the han. gentleman from Twillingate.

If they use them wisely then all the credit, Sir, must go to the hon. gentleman. Mr. Speaker, as one of those 't~ho served under the immediate leadership 1.1220

June 8, 1977 Tape 3993 lb-1. Mi..NEMT: of the only living Father of Confederation, I feel that toda~ . I am sharing in a unique and most important moment in the history of our beloved province of Newfoundland and Labrador. You, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. members of this H6use heard a few moments ago Joseph R. Smallwood, politician extraordinaire~ author, and world figure, write finis to a chap~er of his life, the political chapter. With you Mr. Speaker, who served as leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition for so many years in benches which are now on Your Honour's right hand, I am' certain, Sir, that I share the wish that in writing the conclusion of this particular

chapter in his life, the Han. Joseph R. Smallwood is not terminating the unique identity which he has established across Canada, throughout the United States and in Europe as the figurehead, the totem that best symbolizes to all the whole world, to all the people~that symbolizes Canada's youngest province and Britian's oldest colony. If this were.a banquet, Sir, that we were attending today, Mr.

Speaker, instead of the regular House of Assembly intellectual feast,I would feel that it would be incumbent on me to propose a toast to our retiring member, Since this is not so, Sir, may I merely wish him on behalf of the people of LaPoile District, · ~ district that remained faithful to the hon. gentleman for so many provincial elections, much enjoyment and even greater personal self-fulfillment in the days ahead. MR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Po~t de Grave. MR.DAWE: Mr. Speaker, it is with mixed emotions that I rise here today.

One is with very much pleasure to have it recorded that at least I am a part of this tribute that has been paid to the han. member for Twillingate. Then at the same time with a feeling of sadness to know that one of the most illustrious persons in the history of the political life of Newfoundland should be retiring. I say that,too, in a :11221.

June 8, 1977 Tape 3993 lb-2. MR. DAt.ffi: personal way. I would say that no other member in this House,especially this last ten years,has had a closer personal relationship with the hon. member thaft myself. I have been in continuous cop.tac:t wit;h him. I would say not a week passee1 tnis last ten years when he has been in the province that I have not had some personal contact with him in some manner shape or form.

I can say that this close relationship began primarily at the beginning of the leadership convention in 1969, when a~ that time, I suppose, it was the greatest political convention in the history of Newfoundland,and probably.it will be some time before we will ever see such a convention again. The Premier told me on many occasions that without my help and support at that time it is doubtful if he had won that leadership convention.

And I recall quite distinctly visiting his home on Good Friday of 1969, the convention was being held in November, .and the Premier at tnat time was not too strong in his mind in running for the leadership. It was announced that the present Senator Dr. Rowe was going to be the candidate, and the Premier was going off to Florida. I went up and visited him at his home on that occasion on Good Friday and had a chat with him before he left. I gave him the idea at the time of using this · slate run of candidate. I said the convention to him was going to be.won or lost at district meetings.

It was not an original idea of mine,but it was a thought that I had brought to Newfoundland , I got the idea from watching the reports to Newsweek magazine when the former ~res1C1ent Nixon was running for the ; Republican convention •. :md if you just recall, they said . in the last conventions held that it is undemocratic. 1.1222 -·

June 8, 1977 Tape 3994 RT-1 MR. DAWE: Every state in the United States sends delegates to the various conventions and they are elected and pledged before they go to that convention whom they are going to vote for and whom they are not. I got the idea across to the Premier~ "This is the way," I said, "to win the leadership at the convention. : It will be won or lost at the district meetings." He took this idea and we pursued that to the end, and the result,as you know,Wis successful. Irrespective of that, Mr. Speaker, I have known the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood), as I say, in a very personal manner. There is nothing I can add to the gracious addresses given by the Premier and by the Leader of the Opposition and by the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)on his accomplishments. But I know him very well-personally)and I am sure he is not the person that he has been painted. You would not find a more humble, sincere, unpretentious person within this Province. I have been at his house many times, and you see a carpenter, a truckdriver, anyone who would come and knock on his door looking for help · he would bring them into his home.

I have seen him sometimes actually in tears over the plight of some unfortunate individual. I am sure at any time that his efforts were never spared, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said, to try to uplift and to, at least, do his utmost to help those who were less fortunate than himself. He was never vindictive. He never looked on the wrong side of any person. I recall at one particular time - I am afraid to go too far - a man in a very prominent position in Conception Bay and held in very high esteem had a problem.

The attitude that he took to help him amazed me, and I have been a friend and have admired him till this day. Newfoundland has lost, as I say, one of the most colourful politicians we have ever had or ever will have. The only regret that I have is that he did not end his career in the District of Port de Grave. I had arranged for him in the election of 1971 just to do that,and I even had his nomination papers prepared for me to get them signed the next day. But he called me ten o'clock that night and said that he had been advised by some of his friends, or I suppose his 1.1223

June 8, 1977 Tape 3994 RT-2 MR. DAWE: friends or his political advisors, that he was not going to run in Port de Grave District, -he was going to run in Placentia East. And there again, I think that was a political mistake with th~ consequences - that it was a close election. Be that as it may, Mr.

Speaker, I do.not want to let this opportunity pass to stand here and record these few words in humble tribute to the greatest Newfoundland that I think we have ever produced,and who has done more to relieve the sufferings of so many of our people down through the years than all the other premiers of Newfoundland combined. In closing, I want to add my best wishes to him and say, should he ever try or consider running again in politics I would invite him in any way to run again in the District of Port de Grave. I am sure, if I am alive and can be of any help it will be my pleasure to do so.

That is the only commitment I am making to any other party or person. I will do that for him. Only time will tell what the result will be. But I say to the hon. mem~er, he is in good health, things have changed, times change, it is not impossible, and I would say to him that we are thankful for what he has done for Newfoundland and we wish him God speed~ and I hope and pray that he and I will retain the close personal relationship 1.1224

June 8, 1977 MR. DAWE: SO}ffi RON. XE~ERS: ~ffi. SPEAKER: CAPT. HINSOR: Tape 3995 that we have had do~m through these years. Thank you very much. Hear, hear! The hon. member for Fogo. Hr. Speaker, it is with some nostalgia that I rise to endorse and add a little to the tribute ~o1hich has been paid to Mr. Smallwood by the Premier, the Leader of the Opposition~and the member for LaPoile and my friend from Port de Grave. Sir, I recall my first time meeting Mr. Smallwood.

He may not recall this incident,but >-rhen I was a little boy, playing ~.rith some companions in Hesleyville, we saw this man walking dmm the road with a pack on his back and he carne down and of course~as boys do,~-7e were a bit afraid and we started to run away. However,we eventually stopped and this man came along and he asked us if there >-7as a place that we knell/' we could suggest that he could get a nights lodging and a meal. And we pointed him to a family by the name of Brenton's at Wesleyville and --the- owner- of the home's first duty was to put a pair of soles on }fr. Smallwood's shoes.

He had worn them out completely walking Bonavista Bay,I believe,trying to form a union. But, Sir, that was a long time ago and I never dreamt then that I would stand in this House having worked lrith him and pay tribute to him at this particular time. I never dreamt then that he would be the man who would break that curse of isolation by connecting un the comMunities all across Newfoundland by roads and, Sir, no-one appreciated that more than the people of Bonavista North who had to walk as far as Gamba, a distance of fifty miles,to connect with the train. There were no roads then. So, ~r.

Speaker, the people of that area will forever be grateful for breaking that curse of isolation. Hy next encounter with Mr. Smallwood was in 1955 when I ~o1as invited to his office. I believe at that time they were drawing a dividing line in Labrador. They were going to make three districts or two districts instead of one. So I finally got to his office up around midnight-- I 1..1225

June 8, 1977 Tape 3995 .nt - 2 CAPT. WINSOR: recall it ~~ell-and we discussed the problem and the matters that I went there to see him about,and he asked me my opinion where I thought that the district boundry line should be drawn for the district of Labrador North,and I gave him my o~inion. He said it was a very good opinion and then after chatting for a little while longer he said, ''Do you know of any good man to run in the district of ?" Labrador North. So brazenly I said,"Mr.

Smallwood,! know of no-one any better than myself.'' So from that day on, Sir, I entered into politics,and I had the priv:Uege of serving~ first as ~ back­ bencher : with Mr. Smalltrood, then four years in Cabinet, and as I look around today I find myself the longest mem"!:-er sitting here today who had served with Mr. Smalh•ood. Sir,. I am going to say now,and I have said many times before,he was not a dictator, he was not the dictator that many of his critics referred to him as. I found him thorough and 11226

June 8, 1977 Tape 3996 lb-1. MR. WINSOR: · this is one characteristic which I always admired about him, ~vhen _leadership was needed - it was needed then and is needed now - Hr. SpJallwood took the helm. He ieft no doubt in my mind where the Ship of State was heading. Very often it was heading in the right direction. Sot Sir, I was honoured and I was privileged to serve with a man the calibre of Mr. Smallwood. His equals in our political life will not be seen again. He endeared and endowed himself to the hearts of great,great many Newfoundlanders,especially the young.

I travelled with him on several occasions~and everywhere you went the first that was out to greet Mr. Smallwood would be the children of any community. They were pushing and fighting to see who get the closest to him. Sir, it is regretful today that many of those children, many of those elderly people,could not witness what we have witnessed here today. So, Sir, I join with othen members in wishing Mr. Smallwood good health and bes·t· wishes, and may he have a long and happy new career. I think he is starting - on a new career and his work I am sure will be worthwhile.

In history it will be ·recorded that today we have seen a man depart from our political scene and as I said that will not be again seen in our time. MR.SPEAKER: Hon. member for St. John's Centre. MR.MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words. It is something like coming to bat "&ellind Hickey Mantle when one has heard all the beautiful tributes paid to the hon. gentleman. I cannot say that I had the great honour to serve in the Cabinet of the hon. gentleman. I " cannot say that we campaigned together. But I can say we had many heated hours here in the House of Assembly, when I sat over there.

I was elected in 1962,the same year as the hon. member for LaPoile,I think. We had seven then and we had made great inroads in the political life of Newfoundland. We had come up to, I think?forty per cent of the 1.1227

June 8, 1977 Tape 3996 lb-2. MR. MURPHY: popular vote,and the Tories were well on the way to taking over and correctj_ng all the great ~vrongs t~1at had happened since 1949. In 1966, another election came, There was only three elected at that time : they called them the three divine persons -- the hon. Speaker, Mr. Ottenheimer,who is in the Chair now,-the · bon. member for St. John's East Extern(Mr.Hickey) and myself. The extraordinary thing, the farthest west representation in Newfoundland at that time was the east side of Springdale Street. There was not a Tory member west of that.

So, in all fairness, I have got to say that the hon. gentleman was a wonderful politician. He was very well known, I think, to everybody. As a matter of fact,! was at the age I had never voted until Confederation came. But I had many memor±es of the old ball park on Carpasian Road which is being revitalized now. The hon. member for Fogo tells of his first meeting with the hon. the member for Twillingate. Weli, my first meeting was, we used to run outdoor wrestling at the time down in the ball park. Of course,that wrestling at the time,you know,was all played up with theatrics and every~hing else.

We had a chap,Charlie Greene,who had far more weight on him than he had brains, and, of course, he was being booed,and he stood up and he challenged everybody in hearing of his voice. At that time we used to look up just over the hill on Empire Avenue and the light was burning in the attic of Canada House,I think we called it,which was the residence of the hon. gentleman at that time. so··' after the challenge was issued we had this guy came up - he weighed about eighty-three pounds soaking wet - with a few beers in him, an~ he wanted to take on Charlie Greene.

So, of course,we told him we could not arrange it that night but perhap ·s subsequently,a following week,we could do it. Just as he had left- and poor Joe Wadden, who has passed away since, and myself, chatted with him and we gOt him - quieted down- the next thing the door opened in walked - who? - the 1.1228

June 8, 1977 Tape 3998 lb-3. MR.MURPRY: bon. gentl~ himself! I said;'Good God, Joe," I said- Joe was a great Joey man- I said;'I know he thinJu; he owns the world but I do not think he is going to beat Charlie Greene. 11 But as it happened the hon. gentleman said, "Look. I have heard all the racket down here. I have been working away in Canada House and I thought I would come down for a few moments of recreation." I do not know if the hon. gentleman recalls that, but that would be in the early 1950's. That was my first meeting w.ith the hon. gentleman, at the time. Subsequently, or at that time little did I know that I would be sitting across the House from the same gentleman as 11229

June 8, 1977, Tape J997, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: ultimat~ly the Leader of the Opposition after the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Ottenheimer, had to resign. We have had some wonderful things happen in this House. Many wonderful things have been said about the hon. gentleman. A great Newfoundlander! I do not think anyone can deny that.

Ten years ago possibly if the same things were being said it would remind me of the story of the wake where the lady was sat down on the chair with her little daughter~and everybody was coming in, the husband was waking in the coffin, and everybody was saying, My God, there is John now,a lovely fellow, a model husband and all the rest of it. And she said, Mary~ for - ' heaven's sake go over and look in the coffin and see if that is your father that is in there.

Politically since that time things have reversed,and when you hear the hon. the Premier get up and speak at great length, and a speech which I believe should go down in the ann~ls of this House as one of the most outstanding tributes paid _to any gentleman, and particularly when that gentleman is one of our own native-born Newfoundlanders. I am not as proud a Canadian as I am a Newfoundlander, quite frankly, and I do not say that I was a great anti-Confederate. But many things have happened in this House.

There is one thing I will say, whatever the hon. gentlemen's attributes were, that he was a great lover of this House of Assembly and if there is ever a roll kept of presence or absenteeism in this House there is no one, but no one,can say that he served this House of Assembly here more faithfully than the hon. gentleman did. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: He really loved it, and for that I pay him tribute. I think, and I do not want to put a discordant note into this, but I think we have lost 11.230

June 8, 1977, Tape 3997, Page 2 -- apb HR. MURPHY: something of respect for this House that the hon. gentleman brought to the House at that time. And,like the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, when I watched the tributes to our Most Gracious Majesty the Queen. Herr1ost Gracious Majesty, I was thrilled to think that, Thanks be to God, somewhere in the world there is still a bit of respect for that pageantry and for something that we all should love. That is one thing about this House of Assembly. I can only say, Mr.

Speaker, that I cannot add anything to what has been said because I think the ultimate tributes have been paid to the hon. gent'Ieman. And when I listened to the hon. the Premier talk about Russia and where he was known and everything else, of course, it brings back the old story of when the hon. gentleman visited the Vatican. He was walking in the garden with the Pope and there were two nuns walking there and one said to the other, Who is the strange gentleman with Hr. Smallwood? SOME HON. ME11:BERS : r1R. MURPHY: Hear, hear! So these were some of the things that were said.

You know, it was not all fun and games and play. The hon. member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor), I think, is the senior veteran member of the House. ~'Ve had many hot times here,but I think in the long run I can say this, what we got from the hon. Premier of that day, whether it was mistakes or wrongs or anything else, we did get a deep sense of love and loyalty for this beautiful Province of ours, our own native Newfoundland. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: HR. HI CKl1AN : Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, if I may I would like to join with other hon. members in paying a very sincere tribute to the hon. the member for Twillingate 1.1231

June 8, 1977, Tape 3997, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: who is about to depart this House. I guess I am the only hon. member of this House who has had the good fortune to serve in two administrations, and I have always said that the only reason why I was hired on by the present Premier was that he insisted on having an Attorney General wno had previous experience and training. But be that as it may, I did serve 1.1232

June 8, 1977 Tape 3998 RT-l MR. HICKMAN: for three years in the Cabinet of the han. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), and I look upon him with mixed feelings and mixed emotion. In one sense it was a great experience,but I sometimes regret that I heeded the call to go into political life in l96h, which I thought would be a bed of roses to some extent, and I found to my chagrin that that is not the case. I have learned, I think, today and in the last week or~. a lesson in psychology, because in 1968, I think it was, or 1969, I tried to persuade the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) that he should retire from public life and he would have none of it. Then I tried another method and I was even less successful that way. Now, since he came back in to join us again, I have, during the past several weeks when I have heard rumours of his threat to retire, tried to persuade him that he should not retire, that he should stay in this House and serve out his term and continue to make a very strong contribution to this institution. But again he did not heed my call, and decided to retire. If I had to do it all over again, I would have tried reverse psychology back ten years ago.

Be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, I think that all of us in this hon. House should be very grateful to a gentleman who has kept alive in Newfoundland this great institution, and that is becoming a monumental task for parliamentarians today, and particularly in the New World and in the free world because of the great anxiety on the par~ of technocrats and, indeed, on the part of the voter and the public that we not waste out time, as they cal~ it, in debate in legislative assemblies and parliaments, but rather that we spend most if not all of our time in the mundane practice of governing behind closed doors.

And I believe that we were fortunate, indeed, that the hon. member for Twillingate was re-elected in the last general election and came back into this Assembly and once again availed of the opportunity to implore us,and at times to beseech us, and at times we were critical because he lectured to us,on the importance of keeping and preserving this great institution. At this time of the year no one in his right mind wants to 11233

June 8, 1977 Tape 3994 RT-2 MR. HICKMAN: be here, but by and large it is a practice, it is a procedure, it is a form of government that we would fight very hard to maintain. Yet the irony ,of it is that when we have it we do not take advantage of it, and the bon. member for Twillingate could never stand accused of not having taken full advantage of our parliamentary system of government and our parliamentary process. He is going on now to what I know will be a very active career in writing and spreading the gospel of this Province.

And there, I suggest to him, he is accepting a challenge almost as difficult as the one_ ,that he chose in 1945 when he ran for the National Convention,because we find in Canada today a determined effort on the part of many leaders to Balkanize this nation. We also find in the Province of Newfoundland a lack of awareness of our identity as Newfoundlanders. These two .have, in my opinion, to be maintained and kept alive.

The bon. member for Twillingate has the experience, the energy, the voice, the expertise to make us proud to be Canadians but to guarantee that we are prouder still to be Newfoundlanders, and I wish him well in his next career. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. President of the Council. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with my bon. colleagues on both sides of the House in paying tribute to the bon. member from Twillingate. I met him on many occasions,but I met him just on a few brief occasions prior 1.1234

June 8, 1977, T~ne 199Q, Page 1 -- ftf DR. FARRELL: to ny entry into this hon. Fouse. He Has ah•avs very affable, and T am going tn keen this on a very nersonal note because most nf the things that I would have \!ished to have said~ and ~.roul~ ·have liked to have said'Jhave already been said ;:md T r-rould only be reneat.ing a great many of them.

On a nersonal note, I remember meeting hi!"! at a a time when he was in a great battle. whi~h T ~ill "n~ mP"~in", ~nrl even attended a meeting -.;.rith him at that til"'e, much to some peonle' s dismay, but I enioyed it iMmensely and had a long discussion ~nth him at that time. .1\nd then not too long afterw·ards I Hent throur>:h a ne'!"icH'! of great travail and great Personal dan~er, and I am 1:'lad to say- and I Hould like to say f'Ublicly at this time because I have never even had the onnortunity to state this ~ublicly . before so I would like to say it publicly today - that he nut all the forces at his command that t.Tere avai]a!Jle to him to help me at that time, ;mrl I ~-1ish nmo1 to nuhliclv thank him for that and to also add to \.Jhat has already been ~aid that he has a very successful future.

Now my colleague Hho sits in front of me, an old combatant of the han. member for Twillin~ate, has mentioned to me that he is going to make all Provincial narks availP.ble free to senior citizens. So, Sir, I Hould like to announce that to vou~that vou can go into any nrovincial nark you li1·:e in future \•7ithont anv Pavment. Fear, he<'tr! DR.

FARRELL: I stole the thunder from the hon. minister whom, as r,1e all knoH, had many bouts with the hon. member for 'l\.r5llingate and as I s::>.id I -.;.ras ;ust p:oing to say a fet-7 \-lords that I \.rould like to ?,et across, and ,.,ith that I wish you the best of luck, Sir, and all success in the future. Sf)11.fE EO~. ~-f£~fRERS : ~'P-. Sl'EAKER: Thank vou. Hear, hear! Before calling the next routine husiness I ~-muld lH·e to welcol"e to the gallery a forMer and long-time member of the 11235

,, June 8, 1977 Tape 3999 ~f- 2 MR.. SPEA..T(ER: House of Assembly and former Minister of the Crown, a gentle~an whom I have not seen in the legislature for quite a number of years, Mr. Charles Hallam. SOME RON. MDffiERS :· Hear, hear! ~1R. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome a former Ne~vfoundlander - I suppose if one is a former Ne~rroundlander,one is always a Newfoundlander­ ~!r. Harry 1.Jinsor, who now lives in Rome, Italy and is head of the Indian Ocean programme with the FAO of the united Nations and a number of han. members certairly will know the gentleman.

He served as a member of the Newfoundland Fishery Develo~ment Authority from 1954 to 1964,and is in the Province on a visit. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! .--- PETITIONS: }'!R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte-~.fuite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, Hr. Speaker, it is a little difficult to get back to this now but I sunpose the nation's business must go on. I have a petition to present on behalf of 146 residents of Westport, }1r. Speaker. Now this is the second 1..1236

June 8, 1977 Tape 4000 RT-1 MR.. RIDEOUT: time this year that I have had occasion to present a petition on behalf of those residents on the same problem. The House will recall that some months ago, or a couple of months ago, I presented a petition on behalf of the residents of Westport asking that there be an enquiry into the tremendous increases in electricity rates in that community. Since I presented that petition, Mr.

Speaker, Newfoundland Hydro officials have carried out some investigations in the community and have made some corrections but, apparently, the problem is not yet overcome, and the prayer of this petition is that Newfoundland Hydro have some experts come in and not only check the meters but to replace the meters in the Community of ~~estport . because, Mr. Speaker, there has to be something wrong. I do not know what it is, I cannot get any confirmation from Newfoundland Hydro officials what it is,but there must be something wrong. There are 146 people, Mr.

Speaker, who have signed this petition and they have sent along again four or five examples of the increase in electricity that they have experienced in that community from this month over the month previous. The House will recall, I am sure, that I spent five or ten minutes some months ago quoting unrealistic figures,to say the least, Mr. Speaker, of what had occurred in electricity rates in that community .• Now, as I said, some corrective action - was taken, the bills were corrected,but the thing is showing up again. Let me give a couple of examples, Mr. Speaker.

One person had a bill of $32.37 in March month; their April bill is $212.87. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is something wrong. There has to be. Another person had a bill of $29.01 in March; their April bill was $161.73. Another gentleman, $37.92; his April bill, $101.28. And on and on the story goes. Now, Mr. Speaker, can be blame those people for being upset? They have contacted Newfoundland Hydro.

Newfoundland Hydro has written them all form letters and said that their accounts for the period that I mentioned some months ago would be re-done so as not to show up those tremendous increases up in the $5000 and $6000 brackets, the House will remember some of them were. But here it is occurring again, and I cannot blame those people, Mr. Speaker, for asking 1.1237 .

Jt.me 8, 1977 Tape 4000 RT-2 MR.. RIDEOUT : that the meters be replaced. There is nothing else to do. They have replaced the meter reader, if that is the way to say it, and that has not helped the situation. They have a new meter reader~?r a reader of meters. MR. MURPHY: Did they get the meters tested by the Federal Department of - MR. RIDEOUT: I do not know if the meters were tested, but Newfot.mdland Hydro officials were down there shortly after I presented the last petition. I have been in touch with Newfoundland Hydro officials myself, and like I said, Mr.

Speaker, they have been down there and checked into the situation, but here we have the whole thing re-occurring again. It happened from January to February. Now it is happening again from March to April. And, Mr. Speaker, the last closing note of the petition is that those people are withholding payment of their bills until the April bills are again straightened out. Now I think that is a reasonable petition. I would have to agree with them one hundred per cent on that, and I do not know if this is happening anywhere else in the Province, Mr.

Speaker, but certainly the people of Westport have gone through this twice in the last three or four months, and I think it is incumbent on the Newfoundland Hydro to go down there and correct the situation once and for all. If it means installing new meters, well let us do that, but let us not have those people suffering the traumatic effect of finding a couple.of hundred or two hundred and fifty or a three hundred dollar light bill appearing in the mail. We know there has been an electricity rate increase, Mr.

Speaker, but certainly nothing to correspond with the tremendous increases that we have seen in Newfoundland Hydro-- or in the hydro rates in Westport. So, I ask that the petition be tabled for the second time, referred to the Department to which it relates, and hope that the Minister will guarantee me that something will be done in Westport. 1.1238

June 8, 1977 Tape 4000 RT-3 MR. MURPHY: 'Tom' is that only in Westport? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines of Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I want to, number one, thank the hon. member for bringing this to my attention through the form of a petition. I do not know if I was in the House the last time when the hon. member presented the first petition. I regret very much his having to present a second petition on the same problem.

I am as mad· about it since I have heard about it ten seconds ago, or three minutes ago, as the people of Westport are, and I will guarantee - it is one minute before everything closes down here, I think we are on summer hours - but I will guarantee it is the first initiative that I take after I shave tomorrow morning is to get on to Newfoundland Hydro and to have somebody down there as quickly as is humanly possible to correct it,and to indicate to them that I do not want to see this happen anymore.

It is extremely frustrating to the people of Westport or the people of any place to have this kind of thing happen, and I am just as angry, or angrier than the hon. member, . and I will see to ~t, a~ _ ~he Minister responsible for Newfoundland Hydro, that something is done immediately. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, as my hon. friend knows, the gentleman from Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout) who presented the petition, that I promised some of the han. gentleman's constituents that I would support the petition if and when it was brought before the House.

I have had a number of telephone conversations with some of the hon. gentleman's constituents and I have had a few letters from the people down there who are complaining about the excessive bills they are receiving from Newfoundland Hydro. Obviously, 1.1239

June 8, 1977 Tape no. 4001 . Page l - ms Mr. Nearv. Mr. Speaker, the meters in the Westport area have gone haywire and they should be checked out, and I am glad to hear now, Sir, that the Minister of Mines and Energy is going to take immediate action to try to have this matter rectified.

I am sure that the han. gentlema~'s constituents will be most grateful to the han. gentleman even though the han. gentleman had to bring two petitions before the House • I think now the han. gentleman is going to get action, going to get results and will be able to report to his constituents this evening that between the two of us that we finally got the han. Minister of Mines to move. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I rose in support of the last petition, and I will do so again. I welcome the minister's statement that he will look into it.

I should ask the minister if possibly he can look into - the situations elsewhere. - The last time when a petition was brought to the House I also indicated what has occurred elsewhere in a number of other areas, and certainly we face the same problems on the Labrador Coast. And at that time I· indicated that what we done there was rather than complain, because we have been fed-up complaining, that we devised our own techniques of turning the meters upside down or on the side, because they registered more slowly then and, of course, give a s~ller reading.

But I . indicate to the minister - and I hope - it surely should be noticeable that when a meter goes astray, goes wrong, that the figures indicated on the bills, for instance, are way off. It is not $1 or $2 or $3 more per month. You will find all of a sudden that the meter reading will I be two or three or four or five times what it was the previous month. And when you get the month of April being higher than the month of March or February, for instance, there obviously must be something wrong. 1.1240

June 8,1977 Tape 4001 Page 2 - ms Mr. Strachan. I also understand from our knowledge of meters, because we are getting very good at it, that the inside

part is sealed · in the meter and that in many cases they are very difficult to check as such. And I should indicate that, I think, the simplest solution in all cases like this is to replace the meter almost immediately and take the meter off. But to-go and check it in the place of residence and so on generally means that it is improperly checked or it can be for various reasons, surges in current and so on it can read wrongly or correctly as the case might be.

So I think that in these cases where it indicates from the bill that there is something wrong with the meters they should be immediately replaced and the meter taken to a proper place to be checked out before they are done. And I hope that he will look elsewhere in other areas where there are these anomalies and people know about them. MR.. SPEAKER: Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: NOTICES OF MOTION: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Meat Inspection Act." And on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland Optometric Association And Governi~g The Practice Of Optometry In The Province, and a bill, "An Act Respecting Opticians." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minster of Health, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to present bills, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Health Act." "An Act To Amend The Registration (Vital Statistics) Act." 1124:1

June 8, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: Tape no. 4001 Page 3 - ms The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act." Also I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask permission of the han.

House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify,Confirm And Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And The Government Of Canada Respecting Reciprocal Taxation Of These Governments And Their Agencies." And further, Sir, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, who has gone to perform his functions at the Public Accounts Committee, I would ask leave of the House to introduce on tomorrow, a bill, "An Act To Establish A Municipal Grant System." MR. • SPEA...XER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Social Assistance." MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMA.i~: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Motor Carrier Act." A bill, "An Act To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act." And on behalf of my colleague, the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act • 11 1.1242

June 8, 1977 Tape 4002 PK - 1 ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICF NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I have the answer to another question here, this i s No. 216, Mr. Speaker, the member for LaP aile, this is relative to the settlement with the contractors and owner-operators in Goose Bay, and the amount of wood and so on. There are several others which I have got here, but they do not seem to be quite complete. I will have them ready for tomorrow. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Hr.

Speaker, I have a question for the ~Iinister of Finance. I wonder if he in his capacity as President of Treasury Board could the minister tell us whether or not there has been any discussions between Treasury Board and the NAPE Unit at Waterford since the events of yesterday in what is transpiring there at the moment? XR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ·Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members are aware the negotiating team on managemeut side as well as on the union side met yesterday, Subsequent to that the union held a meeting and at that time ' the membership decided to reject.the mediator's report.

There has been no discussions subsequent to that between the union and management. Quite honestly~! have been searching~and my colleagues have been searching~for something or som~ way in which 1ve can discuss, and how to discuss it, and where to take it. Quite honestly I am speaking on behalf of government,at this particular point I am at a loss. The terms of reference for the mediation were quite clear and were compiied with. The mediator came in with what appeared,on the surface of it at least and certainly even on deeper consideration even more so,to be an honest attempt to find an equitable solution.

As I have said publicly and can say now that there are many items in there which the mediator had suggested which government would never have agreed to across a bargaining table~particularly the automatic step increase which can be quite expensive, particularly if 1.1243

June 8, 1977 Tape 4002 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: it is applied to other institutions and hopefully it will not be, and call back pay, overtime, and various other areas. But 1 as I said yesterday in the House,we are willing in the interest of getting the strike settled make these concessions. The union unfortunately once again has not made any concessions, to the best of my kno~vledge they have agreed to none of the mediator's suggestions, and .they rejected the whole thing out of hand.

The meeting could not have taken more than an hour and a half yesterday because the reports were back here into the House; the meeting >-7as scheduled to start at 2:30 and by about 4:00 o'clock we had reports that it had been rejected. So quite honestly I can only tell the han. member and the House that I honestly do not know where tve go from here. I do not knmv v7ha t recourse is open to us. Those of us who have read the report can see that Mr.

Hart has looked at the thing· in depth, and it can also be seen 1 I think-:on study why - I guess is not why, but I guess the answer is to a question raised by the han. member for Eagle River (Hr. Strachan) yesterday following my short statement as to ~vhy such a compromise had not been achieved before - I think it is I demonstrated in this report why such a compromise have not been achieved before. Mr.

Hart demonstrates the fact very forcefully that it is impossible to achieve a collective agreement when one side goes in with a precondition ~n which all other parts of the subsequent agreement are to be predicated. He warns us about getting ourselves into such a box, and warns about the difficulties of getting into what he refers to as a Hobson's choice position. I do not know what I can add to that, Sir, I sincerely hope that some position can be opened up whereby we can get back at the thing and get it organized. I heard Mr.

Locking say that they had made their position clear, and the next step was up to government. I do not know how many more steps government can really take. We have accepted the report in its totality; the union has rejected it in its totality. I would humbly suggest that the next move is 11244

June 8, 1977 Tape 4002 PK - 3 .r. Doody: really up to the unit to let us know where they stand, and what they are prepared to - MR. NEARY: A secret ballot would not be a bad idea either, you know. MR.. DOODY: You know, this is one of the options. I understand that the membership were offered the option of a secret ballot. But they were offered the option of a secret ballot and a stand up vote which - HR. :t-1URPHY: Did not the Opposition get that bill here the other day? ~. DOODY: No,it is kind of a different principle. AN HON. MEMBER: There is no difference. MR. DOODY: Th.e principle of the secret ballot as outlined or suggested by the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Rousseau), :11245

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4003 ~- 1 MR. DOODY: the ~-1inister of M:anno~ver and Labour , is one in Hhich the narticular geographic area, or industrial

section of the Province is in danger~then the government has the right to .ask the union to conduct a secret ballot. In this particular case ~re are not even going that far. He are not even suggesting that the - MR. NEA..'R.Y: You would think they \vould take the initiative themselves and hold a secret ballot. MR. DOODY: That \vould be my suggestion.but when management - . ·' makes suggestions such as that and makes them publicly then of course one is accused of interferring in union business. ~m .. :m..ARY: That is true. ~·-IR.

DOODY : And when you try to help on that side you get your fingers chopped for telling the union how to conduct its business, and if you try it the other \vay then you are being indifferent and you are not trying to do anythin~ to resolve the disPute so - ~!R.. ?-TEARY: It would be very ~~se to d~ it. '~.

DOODY: I think the union would be and I think the union membership are really the ones who have got to take the initiative here and protect their o~vn rights because 7as I said in, this Eouse and I am sure it must be quite obvious to everybody, that it is the union membership are the ones \.rho are really bearing the brunt of this thing and I really feel- I know it might sound lil~e crocodile tears, but I mean it sincerely _- I feel very, very badly on behalf of all these peonle who have been on the street all this tire. And ~.mat have they got to shm.; for it? How can they possibly hope to recoup from it?

It is a frustration and in answer to the han. t11ember1 s CTttestion, I do not know where government goes from here. I honestly do not. I wish I did. MR. SPEAKER: A sunplementary, the original questioner. ~rp-· RIDEOliT: Mr. Speaker, I can say to the minister that -.:.;e on this side certainly appreciate the dilemma that the government finds itself in. Now I realize from reports that the union has rejected the mediator's report in total but could the minister tell us vrhether 1.1246

June 8, 1977 Tape> No. L..003 !<IR. RIDEOUT: or not there ~·rill be any efforts made in .3.n attempt to get both sides together to see ~-Thether or not there have been some agreement on some points and possibly continue discussions in other areas? Is there any effort being made by Treasury Board to get the two sides together once again, at least to see whether or not there is any common ground following the mediator's report1 1-fR. DOODY: As I indicated a moment ago, Sir, government NM - 2 I should not say government although it really is government - the management

section and the union have sat down and gone over the thing in detail prior to the union meeting and ~·7ere in agreement on all the principles that were set forth so that neither side could say that our understanding ~-vas thus and so and the o-ther person 1 s understanding was so and so and come to some false or misleading impression of ~m~t the report contained. And we are also cognizant of the fact of cau~se that anything - I find this extremely difficult.

But anyway we have also got to be cognizant of the fact that all these things are subject to the Anti-inflation Board and this is another complication but of course the Anti-inflation Board and its agreement with the Province of Newfoundland and with the other provinces was an agreement that was in effect prior to the strike and prior to the subsequent negotiations and prior to the mediator's report~and so this ~~s also discussed and a matter of concern to everybody.

But it is a real item and it is one that I think even adds more urgency to the union membership realizing what the facts of life are, ho~vever unfortunate they might he, and try to find a way of gettinJ the situation back in gear. As to the question has government a:mroached the union since yesterday to ask them if there is something, tl-te an~;er is no. No, '"e have not. He have been hoping that given a day to mull it over a.nd think it over that the union people might come up with some ideas or some suggestions, because without trying to sound pompous or bumptious or 11247

J une 8, 1977 Tape No. 4003 ::X - 3 ~R. DOODY: what have you, it is literally true that every move that has been made in this thing from the beginning has been made from this side. The union, quite honestly, has not budged an inch from their original position and the original position 'vas the constabulr _ry pension thing, except for that one point along the way in which they said that as of :11248

June 8, 1977 Tape 4004 EC - 1 ~T-. DOODY: 1971 we put in a temporary plan and then we will review it later. Hell~I guess everybody including the union executive and the membership knov1s that once you apply or give to any group a concession as large as that it ~vould be very, very difficult indeed to remove it the following year in another set of negotiations. I think it would be naive for anyone to pretend otherwise. And apart from that bit of icing on the cake there has not been a move from that side.

And I think in the interest of collective bargaining eventually~ unless we make a mockery of the v1hole system of collective bargaining~ the union has got to give somewhere along the line. And the government cannot be on the run completely or we are not going to govern. You know, somebody has got to manage and someone has got to be in the union, and the whole collective bargaining system presupposes give and take on both sides, but I think l".:r. Hart outlines that far more eloquently in his statement than I could ever hope to do. NR.

SPEAKER: The -hon. member· for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Eagle River and the hon. member for Port au Port. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not ~,ow if the hon. the Premier is in hearing distance of my voice, but if he is not - if the han. the Premier is not coming back to the House perheps the Uinister of Finance could answer the question that I \vould like to put to the Premier, and that is in connection v7ith the han.

Premier's business on the mainland over the last few days, I presume ~n connection with the Linerboard mill in Stephenville - discussions with companies and firms~I presume, on the mainland to try and find another operator for the Linerboard mill. And no doubt the minister as chairman of the board has discussed this with the hon. the Premier, Can the hen. minister tell us anything about the discussions that the Premier held over the last fe\ v days on the mainland in Toronto and Hontreal in connection with the Linerboard mill, or for that matter in connection with the rumours that the St.

Lawrence mine is also going to close dmm? r,lere there any discussions in connection \:ith trying to avert the closing of the St. Lawrence mine or the Linerboard mill at Stephenville? 11249

l. June 8, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: }ffi.. DOODY: Tape 4004 EC - 2 The hen. Hinister of Finance. On the second part first, on the St. Lawrence mine, my understanding is that the Premier did not have discussions when he v7as on the mainland in that regard although I do believe there are discussions scheduled later on this week bettveen the ~inister of Justice and the Premier and the management or owners of the mine, 1~ith regard to the Linerboard mill situation, I have as the han. member suggested, quite naturally discussed it with the Premier since his return.

He did have discussions with the Principals of Consolidated Bathurst. There was certainly no constructive or no definitive or final arrangement or agree­ ment arrived at. Indeed I do not think there was even a tentative or even a suggested agreement arrived at. I think they explored the possibility of the company becoming actively involved out there. I do not know hmv receptive the company was to the idea. I gather from discussing it with the Premier that they were something less than wildly enthusiastic, but I do not think that they have closed the door on it completely.

And the Premier had indicated to them and has indicated to us that tve should pursue that as vigorously and as actively as we can. I can assure the ~rouse that, you know, so we will do, but I would not want to mislead the House and I am sure the Premier tvould not •.vant Tie to do so by suggesting that any great optimism was engendered during that meeting >vith Consolidated Bathurst. ~ !P.. NEARY: A supplementary question, l-~r.

Speaker. ~.Jould the hon. minister tell the House if at this point in time - I think we are novl into our second month since it '\vas announced that the Linerboard mtll is going to close dotvn, so that only gives the acministration say about another four months - does the minister see any reason at this point in time to have an extension of the closedown of the Linerboard ~ill or is the administration still on target, still going to close the Linerboard mill at a specific, you know, on a specific date even though the negotiations ~ay continue and may go on for a longer period of time? ~ffi..

DOODY: Hell at this point in time there has been no 11250

June S, 1977 Tape 4004 EC - 3 :·'?.. DOODY: change in the mar ket conditions or in any other conditions to '~a rrant any change in the announceme~t t hat had been nade at the time t~ e hor:.. n:ember sugr;ested , a ~ont:t o-::- so ago rnfo rtL'!lat ely .

And Hi th that in mind ' 'e are keepin g on t hat proposed target date. ln the meanti;ne,of course 'Je have been pursuing not only tal ks '.:rith Consolidated Bathurst but with other companies and t.;ill continue to do so, and r,;e are pursuing all possible avenues of either l!lfillagement agreement t.;i th a coopa!l y , a sale, a disposal of some sort or management agreement of some sort .

To date ,,,e have not been able to achieve that, but · . .;e :1ave not given up hopes . 9e have not given up t he desire or the L"ltent of trying to do that, bu t ue have nothing of a positive nature to indicate that t he target date that 1.1251

' June 8, 1977, Tape 4005, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: ~as been set should be changed or will be changed. I sincerely hope that something comes up to make us change that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister then tell the House if the Premier,during his visit to the mainland, just held discussions with one company or was there more companies than Consolidated Bathurst involved? Did the Premier meet ~ith the parent company, the Power Corporation of Canada,and Consolidated Bathurst?

And what other companies did the han. gentleman meet with during his three day visit? MR. DOODY: I can only say for certain that the Premier met with the principals of Consolidated Bathurst. I do not know whether there were representatives of th~ ~ower Corporation at - that -meeting or ·not. I do not think there were or I probably would have heard it. I cannot say. I think that is something you should ask the Premier. MR. NEARY: company? MR. DOODY: It was only just the one To the best of my knowledge the Premier went there specifically to discuss it with Consolidated. MR. NEARY: the linerboard mill? MR.

DOODY: There are no other bids on There have been some people in the Province talking to us during the past several weeks. They have gone back to assess the situation and have asked us not to reveal their name or identy until they get an opportunity to look into it further. We will be in touch with them and they will be back in the Province again. But as to the Premier•s trip, ~1252

June 8, 1977, Tape 4005, Page 2 -- apb ~R. DOODY: for further information on the Premier's trip, I think the questions would be best directed to him because I do not want to make a misleading statement or to mislead the House or indeed, to misquote the Premier. MR. NEARY: Well,will the Premier be making a formal statement in the House on this, Sir? MR. DOODY: I really have no idea. I think that that is something that you should address to the Premier. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: He is not here. I know. A final supplementary, I have recognized another hon. gentleman.

This will not preclude the hon. the member for LaPoile from getting back in later on, but I have recognized the han. gentleman from Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: In the absence of the Minister of Transportation and the Premier, and because I have previously asked the Minister of Finance the question, I will direct it to him. Yesterday in the House I asked the Minister of TPansportation a question concerning the replacement for the Carson.

The Ambrose Shea,which I heard over the weekend was going to replace the Carson - and the minister indicated the Ambrose Shea would not be replacing the Carson, that that vessel would not be coming off the run to go on the Labrador run- a few hours after he had replied absolutely that he stated there was no replacement except the Marine Transport and a couple of other charter vessels which are replacing it, that the Amborse Shea would not be coming off the Argentia run to go elsewhere in the Province, that up to that time there was no replacement at all. What I am stating is that a few hours later 11253

June 8, 1977, Tape 4005. Page 3 - - apb MR. STRACHAN: than that - and I had heard the day before that the Ambrose Shea would be coming off - the statement then was made that the Ambrose Shea would then be doing the Labrador run.

What I am asking the minister this time; since the people in Goose Bay are in desperate straits and are looking for assistance and advice and so on, could the minister indicate to us whether this administration is making a real attempt, and I mean this time a real attempt, to pressure the CN or Ottawa as well, to come to a speedy decision as to the compensation or liability for the accident. or some form of compensation if we have to wait for a judgement case,in case of enquiry, which can take up to many years in Marine Law? Can we indicate anyt hing to them?

Or else three quarters of the businessmen will be out of bu~iness, there is no questton about it whatsoever. The cash flow has stopped and tney are in trouble. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Certainly, Sir, I can speak on behalf of the administration in saying that we will do everything we possibly can to put all the pressure that can be put on CN, and indeed, are so doing now. What the ultimate result of that will be,! suppose, as the hon. gentleman has mentioned, could depend on (

a) the attitude of CN and whether it recognizes the liability. If it does not then we are going to get into the Marine Law area which is indeed a very vague and wonderful and ponderous process for arriving at a decision. But certainly I am not in a position to speak for either CN or the Government of Canada in that regard, but I am.in a position to speak for the administration and I can assure hon. members that 1.1.254

June 8, 1977, Tape 4005, Page 4 -- apb MR. DOODY: everything that this government can possibly do to speed up the process and to get a decision out of the people responsible, that is being done and will be pursued very vigourously. As to the han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications saying that the Ambrose Shea would not be going on that run, if the han. member says that he did so say, then I certainly will not argue with him. All I can say is that I did not hear him say that, but if he did, then obviously he was incorrect and did not have the information. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: au Port. t~R. HODDER: The han. the member for Port A question for the Minister of Fisheries. Is the Minister of Fisheries in a position to tell me now whether the lobster fishermen on the Port au -Port Peninsu-la were-- wiped out - in a storm two weeks ago :11255

June 8, 1977 Tape 4006 PK - 1 Mr. J. Hodder: when,! believe~there was a storm a couple of weeks previous to that, if they will be receiving compensation for the loss of their equipment? ~ fR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated to the House that there is no ongoing programme of assistance to assist the fishermen who lose fishing gear, lobster pots. I told the House some days ago that officials of the department would be investigating the loss, and if there is any kind of assistance that we can render certainly we will only be too · happy to do so.

But I am told as well that up to the present time even the fishermen themselves,because of certain conditions in the area,are unable to give a full assessment of their loss. But certainly once we find out what the situation is then we will be talking to Ottawa, and if indeed assistance is possible ~ve will certainly render :tt. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. HODDER: I was just wondering if the minister was aware that a group, I think it was the Federal people are doing a survey of the losses on the gear in that area.

The investigation has stopped about half way through, I do not know the reason for this,but I am told that for some dispute or other that they are no longer surveying the damage. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.. W. CARTER : Yes, Hr. Speaker, I am aware of the fact that the Federal people were undertaking a study down there or at least trying to assess the damage, losses. But I am told that the ice is still in close to the shores: this has made it I suppose pretty well impossible for the fishermen or indeed anyone to give a true assessment of what happened.

But certainly I will look into that matter, and if in fact they have discontinued their investigation for no apparent reason then certainly I will make representation to them with a view 1.1256

June 8, 1977 Tape 4006 PK Hr. W. Carter: to having the investigation carried on. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans, followd by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. FLIGHT: Agriculture. My question is for the Minister of Forestry and I wonder is the minister in a position to tell us exactly now when the spruce budworm - when the experimental spray programme will start; the date, if he is in the position to tell us1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot give the exact date, but it will be sometime within the ne::ct two week period according to the development of the budworm - it has been determined now from the field tests that have been done that it will be sometime in the next two week period. But the exact date is never known, except for a couple of days beforehand. We know the appropriate time in the year of the development but until the last field test is made then there is no exact date set. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Would the minister indicate to the House if it is already indicated that the programme will start within the next two weeks or during the next week. Is all of the a~paratus and manpower, equipment, airplanes and what have you in place ready to do the spray programme now? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge everything is in place,ready to go. 2 I1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing but bad news these days about the closing down of mines in Newfoundland. We hear Buchans is going to close down in less than two years, sixteen months from now, and now there are very strong reports that the St. Lawrence mine is 11257

June 8, 1977 Tape 4006 PK- 3 Mr. Nearv: going to close down. Would the Minister of Mines and Energy tell the House if these rumours, these reports in the press and radio and on the media are correct? And if so, what steps is the minister and the government taking to try and avert the closing down of the St. Lawrence mine? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there are indications and firm indications concerning the Buchans situation as all bon. members know.

There is also a fairly firm indications that a new mine might be opening up in the Makkovik-Kitts area in the next couple of years. There are some very promising mineral occurences in Central Newfoundland that should realize themselves into mines over the next couple of years. So as well as a number of phase outs there are also a number of hopeful signs on the mineral scene in the next couple of years. Secondly~as far as the St. Lawrence situation is concerned,we do not know that the St.

Lawrence mines are going to close down. ~-Je understand and have been informed by the company that they are doing some studies as it relates to the future of the mine, and that they will be informing us of the progress of these studies. And I understand that in the next few days it is possible that some more information from the company might be forthcoming to government. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman's answer was rather frivilous there in the beginning. Sir, it is a very serious matter.

Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House -if any discussions have taken place prior to the reports that came out today in 11258

June 8 1977 Tape no. 4007 Page 1 - ms Mr. Neary. today's press if any discussions have taken place with the minister and with the administration in connection with closing the mine at St. Lawrence? Is there any threat that it is going to close down? Or are these just rumours, you know? The minister should give the House, the people, the _inf~rmation. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I have given the House on a number of occasions information relating to the St. Lawrence situation, and it is untrue for the hon. member to indicate otherwise.

The situation is that they are reassessing the future of the mine in St. Lawrence, that the possibility exists that it will close down, that the possibility exists that it will stay open, that the studies are going ahead to determine which of those possibilities might be probabilities and might be realities, and that they will be coming to us with the results of those studies very soon. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate then just what the problems are? Is there anyway that the government can help?

Is the company looking for subsidies of any kind? What is it that the company requires of government, of the people of this Province to keep that mind operating, if anything? They must be asking the government for assistance of some kind. What form of assistance are they asking the government for? MR. SPEAKER : The bon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the studies that are going on are studies within the company and until we have a full report from the company as it relates to those studies, 11259

June 8 1977 Tape no. 4007 Page 2 - ms Mr. Peckford. I am not in a position to indicate whether in fact the company is asking for any assistance from government. MR. NEARY: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A final supplementarv, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementarv.

Would the minister indicate to the Bouse then that in the event that a decision is taken to close that mine over the next few days when the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Mines and Energy meet with the company, will the government ~ediately appoint a task force as they did in the case of Buchans to move in to see if alternative employment can be found for the people in that community, what the possibilites are of getting new industry in the St. Lawrence areat MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: The hon.

Minister o£ Justice, the member for the area, has been on this matter for quite a number of months with me as well as the hon. Premier. We are, as always if an eventuality is an unfortunate one that there is a close down, we will do everything in our power as a government to assist the people as we do in like situations in other parts of the Province. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the h~n. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is a supplementary in the sense that the hon. member for LaPoile Q1r.

Neary) mentioned Buchans and it is relative to what he has been talkin~ about here for the last couple of minutes. Would the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy indicate to the House as to whether or not they have received any additional information from American Smelting and Refining Company or Price (Nfld.) with regards to the mining potential, updated reports on ore bodies or new findings? And rather than ask 112oo

June 8 , 1977 Tape no. 4007 Page 3 - ms Mr. Flight. supplementaries, while he is indicating this would he indicate to the House also whether or not the Cabinet have made any decisions as to their course of action in Buchans as a result of the various meetings that have been held this past month or so? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. PECKFORD: The first part of the question: There are ongoing discussions and contacts between ASARCO and Price and the Department of Mines and Energy, and I am sure that they will continue daily and weekly and monthly as the year progresses.

And as that information becomes available and is assessed by government we will be indicating what that information is to the people of the Province through the House, if it is open, if not, through the media in the first instance. Secondly, the matter of Buchans, an action that government will be taking is under study by Cabinet and when I am in a position to give more de~ailed information, I will so do. MR. SPEAKER: A final question by the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: BRINEX have indicated that they are looking for miners or they were trying to build up a work force for the Kitts-Michelin uranium deposit should they go ahead, and all indications are they will, and they are looking for people from the Island part portion. _Will the people from Buchans be given preference in this? Will the government be making representation to them to make sure that the miners from that area will be relocated into Happy Valley - Goose Bay, for instance,to work the mines there? And is this an ongoing discussion withBRINEX 11261 . .

June 8, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Tape no. 4007 Page 4 -ms The hon. Minister of Mines The question presumes that the Buchans operation is going tG close down~which is a presumption. It is not altogether valid at this point in time. But as usual where qualified people exist in a given occupation and there is a demand somewhere else, government, of course, will divert and try to assist people from one area to another when they are looking for jobs and have not got employment in their own areas. -· ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Members' Day we proceed to Motion 14. If the hon. member speaks now he closes the debate. 1.1262

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4008 NM- 1 ~1R. MURPHY: I am sorry I am so short, Sir. }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. ~ ffi. HUFPHY: ~-!r. Speaker, this is a very interesting topic. Perhaps it is about fifty years too late as far as I am concerned. But I would like to say just a few short ~~rds on it and in doing so I am just wondering at this present time,and I do not know if the hon. member for St. John's East ~r. Marshall) would have statistics that I would like to know.

I can go back some fifty years ago when I started ~.;rork with a firm on 1•7ater Street, A pension I think "to7as something that was unknown at the time. We dealt ~th what ~~s happening at that .~· oarticular moment in time. No one worried too much; whether they worried or not it did not do much good because I do not know if there were any pension plans in existence at the time. I can go back to my own particular case where I started ~-tork in 1929.

I did work with three commercial firms and I had not a cent of pension accrued until 1956 when I went to work with a life insurance company)and then in 1962 when we came into the House of Assembly where we did have a pension plan. What is that button the hon. gentleman is wearing? MR. MURPHY: I am an alert consumer. MR. NEARY: What is the other one? ~R. lruRPHY: And on this one here, "Consumer" -I cannot read it. That is a federal one, "Consumer aware," not beware. They opened the thing dolm at City Hall today. This was my official uniform for the opening. HF.

NEARY: You have more buttons in your coat than money in your pockets. ~. Mt.TRPHY: I have more buttons than that too. But, Mr. Speaker, as I •Has saying, the matter of pensions,of course, as we go back over the years and we recall many peo~le that today and in recent years have gone out at the age of sixty-five with not perhaps a five cent piece as a oension 1.1263

June 8, 1977 Tape No. 4008 N1·~- 2 MR. ~fURPHY: due them from any fi~s, basi~ally retired at the ~nll of the firm they work with and they might give me $10 a month and they might give another fellow Sl5 a month, and another fellow $20 a month, whatever the case may be; in other t.;rords ~t r.-ras at the !'leasure of the employer that you did work with.

Now as far as this motion is concerned I think it is a very wortht.ffiile matter to discuss. vlhat this House of Assembly's authority is to impose pension plans on private firms and looking again at the fact that in recent years - and I say recent and I mean quite recently,in the past ten or fifteen years, ~V"here most of the people working are organized into some tYPe of labour union and I think basically that most of these unions have as their fringe benefits pension plans. I do not ~now how many people today that are 'not covered under a pension plan.

And I am ;ust speaking again from the little knowledge I do have, I believe any enterprise today, and I. am talking about contractors this type of thing, where there is a four per cent deduction or a contribution from the employer tm.rards vacation pay- - I believe that applies in the case of contractors, this type of thing, where you do not have what we used to call in the old days, a steady job but you had jobs working at different tYPeS of work - but whether there is or -it ·is possible to put some kind of a compulsion there on that type of person to have a pension plan,I do not know.

I do not know what the similar legislation is in effect in any other provinces. But to those again I 11264

June 8, 1977 Tape 4009 EC - 1 YR. 1-lliRPHY: say that looking back over the years and thinking of people coming out today, inrrany cases with the benefits today many people will be far better off at ~he age of sixty-five than they 1o1ere at the age of forty or forty-five. Because we do have the old age pension, we do have the Canada Pension Plan and we do have in many instances private pension plans. But 1o1hat happens to the person who does not have a private pension plan? He will get his old age pension and he will get his Canada Pension.

If that is sufficient or not I do not know, but as a life insurance agent I have sold many pension plans to various firms within the city, and tragically, I have found to my surprise and disappointment that many employees use these pension plans as thrift clubs. In other words, they were in three or four years and then they requested that they 'vithdraw what they had put in to pur- chase a car or something else.

I have been in firms "'rho were very anxious to put a pension plan in their business, and in most cases it w·orked ~vith a 5 per cent from the employer and 5 per cent from the employee~ but I have found in a great many cases that the employees were not too anxious to put their 5 per cent in 1 In many cases they lived for the day and not fot the twenty-five, thirty or forty years hence.

Now at my age~1·7here I have a year to go before I become a senior citizen, this matter of pensions is of great mol!lent to me and great importance, but for someone who is t\venty or twenty-one or twenty-two years old to look for~Vard for forty-four years to retirement is a sort of unrealistic matter. But I am all for some type of pension plan and I believe that a man ,.;ho serves a firm for a great number of years is entitled to a pension. And I can only think of my o'vn father who worked some fifty years with a firm. He retired through disability, if you like, at a pension of S5 a '.reek.

He lived for two years on the pension of $5 a week. His pension, his five dollar bill used to come up every Friday,which was pay day, dropped off at the house. He died on a Thursday. On Friday his $5 did not come, but two 11265

June 8, 1977 Tape 4009 EC - 2 :i'AR • ~1URPHY : mass cards at $1 each. But I think, you know, anybody ~vho has been in the work force here or perhaps an~·There - I cannot localize it here - but anybody ~vho did work ~vith a Hater Street firm like I did - a.s I say I started in 1~29; I ~vill be some fifty years ~vorking next year, , as _I say, I did not have one cent of accrued pension due me until the year 1956 when I went to Hork with Mutual Life and 1962 where this pension here perhaps will be the basis of my retirement with the Old _1\_ge Pension Plan and the Canada Pension Plan.

He look back fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty years and we are living in two different worlds. Because any of us who have reached the age of sixty can look back and think thirty-five, forty years ago when we saw someone fifty years old we would want to l<"now ~vhat the heck they were doing out at a dance or something like this - they .should be home making their soul. I think that was the old way, you know,wl]ich we took for granted.

But today as · we look around we have become used to so many comforts of life, at the age of sixty-five - and I use sixty-five because it is a basic retirement date - your regular monthly, weekly or bi-monthly salary ceases, but that is about all. That is about the only change. You get a pension which might be a fraction one way or the other of your salary. But most people today have a motor car~ they are still driving a car.

Most people have a home and in many cases they are still paying off mortgages at that age. ~.J'e have many comforts that ~ve did enjoy at the age when we were working with a lot more money to pay for it. So very little things change~only the actual amount of the cheque, whether you get from the Canada Pension Plan, the old age pension as against the fairly comfortable cheque you are getting when you are ~vorking. So, the need for pension plans is quite important, Sir, I would say. I am all in favour of oensions, but again, I am just wondering how 1.1266

June 8, 1977 Tape 4009 EC ;.. 3 HR. HURPHY: in today's age ~ve would introduce compulsory pensions. We have them in,I think~every area of the civil service -whether it be federal or provincial there is a pension. Tl,ere is a lot of talk of course about whether they are funded or one thing or other, and this just makes me laugh when I hear the fact that the pension plan is not funded by a government department.

You know, it is just a red herring so big that it really smells, because once you work with government and you are guaranteed a pension at the age of sixty-five, whether they put your $2 in a box there under the counter or not every time you put your 5 per cent in does not make the least bit of difference in the world, because when you reach sixty-five you are guaranteed your pension is there. l.Jith private firms it is altogether different where they have to get a third party to set up a plan for them.

The employee and employer put in their money, they will go to a life insurance company or a trust ~ompany and say, 'Look, we want to guarantee our employees a pension at the age - crf- so - and ·· so-.-' So an agreement is drawn to say, Yes, 1.1267

June 8, 1977 Tape 4010 PK - 1 Mr. Hurphy: you put in X dollars, you put in X dollars and when that gentleman who is now twenty-five reaches the age of sixty-five here is what this pension plan will pay. It is guaranteed. There are different types of pension plans, Some have a five year certainty; in other words,you live for five years you will get the full pension; if you die within the five years someone gets it for five years. Some are ten years certain.

In other words,your pension at the age of sixty-five if you die after three years,seven years is paid to your beneficiary or it could be without any certain or forever~which would be slightly less, In other words,you live to the age of one hundred you would still get your pension. These are private pension plans. ·-So what you are doing actually is, as _they say, making today's dollars work to cut today's dollars for tomorrow.

So ~vhat you are doing ~11hen your high earning period is on you take money out of your salary to put towards the pension plan so that when the time is reached where your earnings are decreased and your pension, you will have saved in the fruitful days to provide for the days that are less fruitful. As I say on this again that I think today that pretty well every union in a part of their agreement have pension plans, and I think it is compulsory that they do.

The fringe benefits are a big thing today,like hospital and medical benefits, and I think pension plans should be a very important part of that particular plan when you go to work with people. Of coursetaS we go back again, some years ago t11hen you started work with a firm you pretty well worked their all of your life. Things have changed again where you have different employers today, but that does not make any difference because if you can build up your pension at,say, Ayre and Sons for eight years that pension is there for you; you go to Bowrings or another firm that pension is still there for you.

And in most cases they are portable. In other words~they are arranging now that you will carry your benefits 11268

June 8, 1977 Tape 4010 PK - 2 ~r. Murphy: from A firm to B t0 C to D, so that the monies that you have put into a pension plan provides that pension at retirement age. You have other options:if you want to withdraw from the pension plan you will get your refunds back, and in most cases it is at 5 per cent interest. And another favourable benefit,of course, is income tax deductible. In other words,in your high earning period you can deduct, I think · it is something like $2,500 today, I am not quite sure, on the Income Tax Act, but up to $2,500 as an income tax deductible item.

So it helps particularly when I look at my hon. friends, the young la~ryers there who are self-employed in many cases it gives them a chance to provide their o~m pension plan - MR. NEARY: There is not a lawyer here now. MR. MURPHY: I am looldng at the hon. gentleman at the table. MR. NEARY: No~the hon. gentleman is not a lawyer. MR. HICKMAN: The shortest man at the table. MR. MURPHY: At the table - are you not lawyers, gentleman? ' If so you are under false pretenses. MR. FLIGHT: I thought you thought I was a lawyer for a minute. MR. NEARY: There is no way you can juggle it. MR.

MURPHY: And, of cause, the hon. and distingushed gentleman from St. John's East (Hr. Marshall) the mover of this great motion, who has got to be the outstanding one, he represents many great firms ,I understand. MR. NEARY: Including Stares Electrical. MR. MURPHY But, Mr. Speaker, to get back to this~a pension plan today is no longer a fringe benefit, as we used to call it one time. I believe it is a necessity. It has got to be compulsory in some way or another. How we do it? How do we impose on any private individual and say, Look you must provide a pension plan.

And when I say on a private individual,we go right around the circle and we are imposing that on the consumer. Because any firm that is in business, 112·69

June 8, 1977 Tape 4010 PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: and let us not forget the fact, that spends extra money on any expense - whether it is painting their store, putting new fixtures · in or providing benefits to their employee- in the long run who is going to pay it? The guy or lady that goes in over the counter and spends their dollar. Because they are making a certain profit on their business, and once they take another 4 per cent out they add that back on their overall costs, of course. They put it back, and a cent a pound on many items would give them the money to pay the pension.

"Whereas the hardship wrought to persons so coming to the end of their productive years and being retired without the right to pensions ought not to be tolerated by society." Now that is a very strong expression, and I would say a very commendable one. But again, how practical is it? And what machinery can we use for me or anybody else in this House to go across to anybody, any firm doing business - and do we limit it? What about the firm employing one or two persons?

I know in certain areas - and I am not sure; some years ago I checked - I think anybody with ten employees or more - and I do not know what the hon. member has checked on the background - that a firm with ten employees or more must provide a pension plan for retirement. So it is a very, very interesting subject, I am sure, for other members of the House and particularly those representing industrial areas. I think the member for Baie-Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) would find the mines would have their own pension plan. Has Buchans got one, 'Graham'?

You know, so basically these had been built in as a part, but, you know, how many people, I wonder, - MR. FLIGHT: MR. MURPHY: MR. FLIGHT: Only a small minority. What? A very small minority of the population works in those industrialized areas. 1.12'10

June 8, 1977, Tape 4011, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: Yes, but I am just saying, I wonder how many are not - what is the word in labour? - organized, outside that do not have - and I think basically these are the ones that we have got to look after in many cases, because the labour unions as such, you know~ do assure on behalf of members, you know - and I can go back, when I joined the Clerks Union on Water Street.

I was second vice- president in 1937, and we had one of the largest unions in the country then, because we had every store on Water Street with a tremendous number of employees who were members at that time. MR. FLIGHT: I thought you were a capitalist. MR. MURPHY: What? MR. FLIGHT: I thought you were a capitalist. MR. MURPHY: Me? MR. FLIGHT: Yes. MR. MURPHY: My darling fellow, I have more experience in labour than all the crowd here only I do not shoot off my mouth about it. I am not that type. I am a very retiring, humble type, like the Premier and the former Premier, a humble gentleman, you know.

But, you know, as I say, my background, I remember attending a Federation of Labour meeting. The first one I attended was at the Newfoundland Hotel in 1937, and a gentleman who we honoured last year at Corner Brook, Mr. Harry Oxford who wor