PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number62 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDA V, MAV 26, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

I l The House met 11:00 A.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR, srF.AKF.R: Order! Tape 746 (morning) PRF.SF.NTWG PETtTim:s PK - 1 ~m. ~r. ~OEL: . ~fr. S11eaker, I have the honour to present a petition from over l~0 residents of the settlement of Bauline in the District of St. John,.'s !forth. "Ir, i:;peaker, St. John's North has a great nur.1ber of beautiful places but I do not think any are more beautiful than the settler.1ent of Bauline.

The prayer of this petition, Your Honour, raises a point which is of considerable interest, I think, to the people all over Newfoundland and that is the question of livestock roamin~ at lar~e on the highway and in the gardens. Included in the recitals of this petition, Your Honour, is the allocation that the livestock defecate indiscriminately hy day and by nir,ht and pollute the wells of the settlement.

Also, the livesto ck roam about the property and destroy it and roam about the public highway and make it unsafe for travelling, The prayer of the petition is th~t we,the residents of Bauline, hereby petition for an order that the said livestock be confined and not permitted to roam and that the operation be ordered to cease forthwith. They asked the ?Unister of Health to take some steps to see that their water supply is not contaminated by this source. Mr.

Speaker, I think that anyone who has ever had livestock defecate in their wells would have some sympathy for the point that I am trying to make here this morning. Years ago it was accepted, I think, but now, in this day and age, the idea of livestock defecating indiscriminately by day and by night is not conducive to good sleep tor good health mr to cleanliness in the home or anything of that nature. These people take a very serious view of this, in particular, Mr. Speaker, they take a very serious view of havinr, these animals lying down on the hi~hway. ~ 4572

\ t1ay 26, 1971 Tape 746 (morning) l.'k - 2 HR, NOY:L: We have here, I think, a conflict between the animal keepers and the people who do not keep animals, I think . everybody who drives over the highway is al.'are of the problem which these people complain .of and they ask that something be done about it. I think that in the area of ~t. John's now(and Bauline is really in the area of St.

John's)that the time has come for some regulation to be made reJ.ating to the keepinP, of wild stock and the permitting of the roAming at larr.e of livestock.and I am glad to be able to present this petition to the House, I move that it will be received, I'• ·N. J. R. ~:!ALt.tmnn: (PPF:'IIFP.) : ?fr. Speaker, I rise to support and :ilso to oppose the prayer of the petition. Justice requires that the prayer of this petition be acceded to and that the people who pray have their prayer answered favourably and affirmatively.

On the other hand, you cannot fly in the face of history and you ~annot fly successfully into the face of the har~ facts. Nct1foundland happens to be the 'lnly part of the Continent of North America that I know of where land is fenced to keep animals out. Every where else, if land is fenced it is fenced to keep animals in, to keep them from gain~ out, In Newfoundland we fence land so that animals will not get in on the land.

Now the reason for that, of course, is obviously that in the settled parts, the populated parts of the rest of the continent, enormous areas of land had been cleared and cultivated. put under cultivation. In tlP.wfoundlanc! virtually none, virtually none, very little, a triflin~ amount, a piddlinr., trif.lin~, insufficent amount of land has been cleared and hrour,ht under cultivation. 1·:'hen it is cleared.at enormous cost in human effort, when it is cleared it becomes very, very precious inrleed, too precious to allow animals c,n it.

Because the land , that is cleared, is clC!:tred chiefly, almost entirely to rrot.· a fet.r ~ potat:oes and turnips and cabh.ire and a re,,. ver.etahles of one kind or another, and you do r.ot rl:ire let that priceles!;ly 1val11.1ble lit of l.,nd 4573

.. Hay 26, 1971 Tape 746 (morning) PK - l HR. ~~!ALLWOOD: and the crops growin!! on it become dama~ed by cattle roaming around on it. So you fence the land to protect it against roaming cattle. It is the only part of North American, I think, were this is true. The people ,,-•ho have p.one to the trouble or whose ancestors went to the trouble of clearin~ and cultivating a bit of land,have ri~hts as well. They too have rights. I am not talkin~ of lep.al rights. I ~ am not talkin~ of constitutional rights. I am talking of moral rights. They have the rir,ht to have a bit of land and to keep animals off that land.

So you have the it!llllovable force; the irresistible force meeting the immovable body . You have a clash of two moral rights. The =ight of a motorist to drive along the Queen's lliihway without dan1ter of being killed by a coP, which happened to me once, almost. The 'tinister of F.ducation was with me atid the ~•ini1Jter without portfolio, the senior member for Harbour }1ain.

We were in a car, when a stupid cow walked across the road in front of the car, which I admit was not driving as slowly as HR. f-f\JRPHY: Wos the Premier driving? }ffi • ~"A T.tWOOD: I was dri vinr, and the cow hit the car. the cow's side, the whole,between the four legs and the hind le~s of the cow, the whole side of the cow hit the front end of the car, Fortunately the car was not d~ma~ed, nor was. the cow. But the cow went over and over and ended up down in a ditch. ~!hile everyone in the car held his breath, the cow jumped up and Aade off like a deer, like an antelope.

The citizen drivin~ aloni the road has a ripht to be protected against that kind of d:inr.er. AM 110'!. !~!IlER: Inaudihle. rTR.. S'IA1.t.wonn: The danger of running into cows and have their lives end:inr.ered for them. Of course the sm:ie thin~ might he said of moose. Citizen~ might expect to have that kind of protection , 4574

. Hay 26. 1971 Tape 746 (morning) flK - 4 l'R. S'!ALT.l-1000: pulp wood and all kinds of thinsis. But, I am in sympathy with the prayer of the petition, of course I am1 •nd so are all of us. But I am also in sympathy with the fev people there are - there are not too many left-with a bit of land fenced in to keep animals outs. Now where in the nnme of God are they going to r,o?

If you 01.rn a pony and you let the pony out for the s1JJ111l1er and all your neigh~ours do the same thinll, and your nei~hbours in t~'O or three settlements,and all these ,. ponies meet and they spend the summer toRether , twenty, thirty, forty fifty, I have seen sixty and seventy ponies grazing the whole su~mer and then comes the horse hunt in the fall. It is great fun, I do not know !_f any hon. member has ever done it, but you take a bag with some grub in it, and you ao off maybe thirty, forty men,horse huntinp,. It is the r,reatest fun of all,and you find your horses .

Something like campaigning and sometimes a bit more rewarding,depending on which party it is, and you find the horses and bring them back. ~ow what are you going to do in the summer? You do not need your pony in the Sumr.!er. You let the pony out, in the fall when you go and f1nd your pony, here she is, as fat ~r, putter, she had a wonderful time_tl·is summer. But what are you going to do bar up the poor little pony in your garden? You cannot,because you are p,rowin~ potatoes in your ~arden.

So I have sympathy with both sides and I do not know what side to favour more, bat I lean a little bit towards ?niridy." MR. CRO~BIF.: t1r. Speaker, I would like to support that petition. I art not gotnr. to try and spraddle both sides of the fence, as the Premier ha9 done. The Premier, of course. is an experienced cowman and horseman. AH !ION. ~'F.'1RFR: Cow or hull? HR.

CRO~BIF: Well he is an expert on all sexes in the cow, he is also an expcr in ''jack assery." We all remember that picture, that romantic picture. '!r. ~peaker. in Time 1-'ar.azine, -with the Premier loping down the nurf.n P1minsula Highway on a horse,with a lasso. I am not sure if he ~575

May 26, 1971 Tape 746 (morning) PK - 5 1i.m. CROSBIE: had a lasso twirlinp; a.round after those famous cows that were gain~ to be breed down on the Burin Peninsula~ But seriously, '-fr~ Speaker, I think this petition has a certain odour about it. It has something about it that it should deserve SOf.!e serious thought.

As the Premier explains 1 in Newfoundland 1for historical reasons 1 anim.als are permitted to roam. nut I think Newfoundland has changed in many V!ctys • and this is one of the ways it has got to change in~ I see no reason why the 0overn~ent cannot bring in le~islation to permit areas of the frovince1 that in certain areas animals are not alloued to roam and other areas animals are permitted to roam. For exrunple·, in the St.

John I s Hetropolitian area or the Corner Brook Metropolitian areatwe have some very distinp;uished horsemen from Corner Brook in the gallery this morninr, that in certain areas you would not be allowed to let cows, horses or other animals roa~, including the area that the hon. member has presented a petition from,Bauline. I run very sore on this point, Hr.

Speaker, because I developed a very fine lawn at Hogan's Pond and lt is a half mile down from the Tote Road,through the woods 1 and it is about two miles from the Thorburn Road, yet somehow all the covs of the neighbourhood discovered, smelt the grass of my lawn this year. HR. srrALLWOOD: Yes, because the hon~ gentleman 'Was too stupid to fence his lawn to keep them out~ MR. CROSBIE: I did not have my lawn fenced, that is quite correct, !·!r. Speaker. I moved out one weekend from the country,in ~eptember 1 and the next weekend when I went back, I had to shovel all day.

My lawn was ruined, so I am definitely a supporter of this petition for at least the St~ John I s tfetropolitian area~ I think it is something the r.overnment should ~ive some serious consideration to. I have come across many cases of people running into horses, in the area the member mentioned; 4576

\ ' Hay 26., 1971 Tape 746 (morning) Pk - 6 ~-C~OSSIE: last year, Porses roaming on the road, there is often accidents with them; cows. There is nothinll much we can do about the moose, I think, if this petition is referred to the t>eparttl'lent of Health or to the Department of Mines, Ar,riculture and Resources ?-'R. RnJWnTS: Inaudible. 1-'R. cr.nsnrr.: 1 knD'-~ that the nin1ster is r,oin~ to consider this form of pollution, with all other fonns.

That some consideration be given the lep,islation to permit certain areas of the Province to have the law changed,put the o~us on the owner to keep the animals in,rather than otherwise . There are other areas 1such as the l'remier describes, where there are a lot of ponies, horses used in the woods and so on,where that might not be desirable.So l hope that this petition will receive full Cabinet consideration On motion petition received, MR. S!fAl.U/00D: Ye will drop the estimates now and the bud~et and concentrate on that. nnN . J . mL\N: (HitHSTI:R OF SUPPLY /NO SERVICES): Mr.

Speaker, I have a petition that I have been asked t~ bring before this Pouse , as a matter of fact two petitions, hoth pertaining to the same matter and both have apparently been drn,m up and circulated by one ~!r. David P. "1:ens of 124 Water Street. One is from and si~ned by a number of residents in my own district of St. John's South, about 121 residents, and 502 residents of St. John's Centre represcnted 1of course,by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . I have already brought this to his attention 1 privately. The petition, ~Ir.

Speaker, requests that some thouitht be i;tiven to a Provincial Park in the general St. John's area 1where there is certainly a need among larµe famili es on low incomes and so on and elderly citizens, to find a place to boil up and have a park for relaxation and so on . The petition, in fa ct , mentions an area on the Blackhead Road,in view of the fact that, one park \.'as left unnamed during the Development r.onference . . I think it nn lv fair : ~a t T tell the Pouse, at thi8 time, that in fact anot~er park site hns heen a rrivP.d at and there is no oue$t!on ~~out • 4577

t-'ny 26, 1'.)71 Tape 746 {morning} PK - 7 !''~· ·t-:ot~'t-!.:. the need for more recreational areas within say the St. John's netropolittan area. t would nsk that this House accept this petition ancl refer it to the department to which it relates, which in this case ts my department. On ~otion petition received. ~CROSRir.: ~'r. ~peaker, just before we get to Orders of the Day, has the Premier not any c0111ments for the House on the statement made by the ,. Federal l'inister of Fisheries• Mr. Jack Davis?

In the llouse of Commons yesterday it is reported that he said; ''the salmon fishin~ re1.ulations are reasonable and will be enforced," Has the Premier being in touch with the minister since the statement was made and can he report any pror,ress or any resolution on this matter, in view of that staternent? ~ S'IAL!-Y~OD: Mr, Speaker, I do not kno1.• what the minister-said in the House of Co11111ons yesterday. 1 know only what some radios have reported him and Canadian Press indeed have reported him as sayin~.

I would prefer to see the Hansard, the verbat.im report of his words. nut I am able to say this here r.ow, as I have already said publicl~ on the radio this mornin~,that, in the conversation I had with the minister the other morninr,, after I made my statement in the House here, I went out to the Coffll'lon Room and called the minister and had s telephone conversation with him. He said nothing on that occasion. That is the only occasion on which 1 have spoken to him since I made my statement here. He said, nothing to the effect that he was reported !!_.Shaving said.

Nothing at all like anv assertion that the regulation were r.oine to he carried out . The cotm1ent he did make to me was, I am sure you will a~ree, he said to me that we should stop moonlighting . I ssld~•1 absolutely do agree. I believe stron~ly in conservation and I do not think that moonlir,hters should l>e permitted to catch salmon." He agreed on that. Rut there was no ariument by hlm that the re~ulations were fair. There was an argument by Me or a declaration hy me that the 4578

Tape 746 (mornin~) l'lt - A HR, ~t•Au.worm: t'egulations,in my opinion, were brutally and savagely unfair and unjust and wrong and our.ht to be scrapped and that new regulations ought to be drawn up After the minister and our minister or his officials and our officials r.ot together, called in the fishermerls unions , called in others who ~tr.ht be concerned and after ~ettin~ the best possible information and advice, entirely new re~ulations be drawn up. I made this point very stron~ly to him, I r,ained a very strong impression that he would do that, ,. not that he said he would .

But he certainly did not say to me that they were okay and were r,oing to be enforced, No such statement was made to me by the minister. ~fR. CROSnIF.: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker,does the Premier intend to take this matter up with !tr. Davie again today 11n view of his reported statement yesterday, because apparently the conversation of three or four days ar,o was not sufficient. ls the Premier planninr. to contact Ottawa on this? MR. 5'4ALJJ1ClOD: I had the firm intention,about ten thirty, our tir.1e1 this mornin~, which would be nine o'clock Ottawa time,of calling the ministe~.

I had a more pleHant duty in that r had the Deputy ''ayor and all the councillors of the City Council of Corner Brook, the Town nana~er and the Engineer and others 1with me at nine•thirty,our time, until one minute before eleven,and I did not have time to call the minister. nut, my colleague the •ttnister of Fisheries,informs • that 'ir. 1\radley and }(r, Carroll, from Ottawa . from the Federal Department of Fisheries 1 are meeting with our minister tomorrow morning. This is, I hope, the be~inning of some rational collaboration between the two Government .

I may say that in February past the Government of Canada, the ''inister of Fisheries or his officials sent the proposed reyulations to St. John's,to my collea~ue, the Minister of Fisheries. He studied them,with his officials, came to me and t sent a very strong tele~ram 1 indeed a very s tronp. teler.ram to the 4579

May 26, 1971 Tape 746 (morning) PK - 9 HR, SMALU/non: Minister of Fisheries, vigorously protesting these·new 1 proposed new regulations, They did not accpet my protest. H• did send me merely an acknowledgement, just acl~nowledr,ing receipt of my telegram, but not dealing with the points in it, nor have they collahorated,in any shape or form or any degree,with this r.overnmcnt or with our Department of Fisheries or the officials of our Department of Fisheries with regard to these regulations.

They are ,. unilaterally dra\11'1 up and unilaterally announced and unilaterally applied, which I think is a very serious error on their part. I think they now realize it. ORDERS OF TP.E DAY On motion of the hon, the Premier a Bill, "An Act Respecting Collective nargaining Between Certain Fishermen Or Associations Of Fishermen And Certain Persons Or Associations Of Persons Enraged In the Processin~ Of Fish In The rrovince." Read a fir.it time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the hon. the Premier a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Trade Union Act, 1960." Read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomocrow. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY !IR. Clll\IRl'IAtl: Order! Heading XIII - Municipal Affairs and Housing. Shall 1301-01 carry? MR, CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, when we adjourned last nir,ht, we were discussin~ Municipal Affairs,~enerally, and in particular the report that Mayor Adams ma~e on the Town of Bay Roherts. There are a few more words that need, in my view, to be said on that. in view of coffll!lents made hy the hon. the Premier and by the member for Port de Grave, Nov, Mr.

Chatman, the sip,nificence of this report, the Adam's Report, is not what the people of Bay Roberts or Port de Grave district think or might think about the hon, member for that district. That is a matter that 4580

I '1-'ay 26th, 1971 Tnpe 756 Page 9 Afternoon Session the To,-:n of l&'-'n nnd the councilors showed us that $200,000 would do the first phase of thr. \.fnter and sewerage for the Town of Latm and ,.,e made the c:ommittment there that when "'e would come back to ~t. John's we would study their ~roposal and ve would advise them. We advised them that -..·e vould f'rovide this $200,000 for the Town of Lawn and we did that if ~ood faith,on advice of the Council at Lawn. $200,000 was required and this ts what ve committed - "!ill.

HICKJIIAN: Without any study? ?-m. 0/\WE: Without any study, This was just from the Council itself and we accented their word and this vas the committment that was made and this is the committment that ve vere prepared to fulfill, But now since the study was made and tenders have been called,the cost is almost treble and that is the position with La,.m. Well, Mr. Chairman, I will juRt look at 1.a'l>'ll. The type of survey that has been goin~ on at Lavn,accordin~ to the answer.is first there waR the preliminary survey ~nd now the detailed survey is tn propress. ~. n/lHF: Detailed design .

MR, HICIJ.IAN: Detaileri desi1m, what does that lead anyone on the Lawn Town Council to believe? ThBt they are ioinr, to ~et a water and sewera~e ~ystem and not that they are ~oing top.et a water and sewerape system if it stays within $200,000, not on your life. ~aybe this is far more appropriate to discuss under the next headin~, water and scwerar,e,but before w~ leave pavin~ grants, ~r. Chairman, I take issue with the hon . the lfinis ter of Education when he says thii; was a five year programme. HR. CROSBIE: It was not. HR.

HIC!l."11\N: It wns a prorramme to be financed over five years and it is a fact that munici~nlit1es cnme in,sourht the puidance of the officials in the Department of ~unicionl Affairs and Housin~, received 4681

'1 Hay 26, 1Q71, Tape 747, Page 1 -- apb !'lorning. M_R. CROSBIE: that lar,e sums of public monies were spent without any evidence - a commissioner who could take evidence on oath, unable to track down ~bat the monies vere spent on or how? It clears no one of nnythinr; let us be quite clear on that. The co111111issioner was unable to find conclusive evidence that the Town Clerk misappropriated public money. There was no evidence of misappropriation of public funds by any other- individual, ~ecause the records were no longer there. The cheques are gone, the vouchers are r,one, the records are eone.

Let us be quite clear on that. The commissioner is unable to make any finding for or a~ainst anyone on that question. He makes the findinr, that the records are gone, and no one can crack what happened to the funds that were spent duirn~ that period. The Premier did make one statement that makes the situation even worse or graver,insofar as the administration of the Goverru:ient is concerned. The Premier soys that the Department of ~1unicipal Affairs, while the nenber for St.

John's South was minister, knew that there was somethinr - that the accounts of the Town of Bay Roberts were not beinp. kept properly or that there was something wrong in the Town of Bay Roberts. So, at sot1e point in 1969, before or after June of '69 1 when the Auditor General presented his report for '68, the Municipal Affairs Department knew that there was something Wl'ong. What was done Mr. Chaiman? The answer is; nothing was done. Why was nothing done?

The answer, obviously, is; becatSe the l!ayor of the Town of Bay Roberts was a meMber of the House of Assembly and this could cause embarrassrnent,if anythin~ happened in connection with this situation. If the Department of ~unicipal Affairs, in 1969,had knowledge of the state of the records of the Town of Bay noberts, they should have moved in quickly and decisively,but they did not. l-'R. Sl'ALLWOOD (J.R.): They did. ?IP •• CPO~ They did not . l-'P~?•AtJ.t'nn.!'..:.. The:, did. 4582

., ~1ny 26, 1971 , Tope 74 7 • Pnr.c 2 -- apb Momin~. !:!!t..:.....f~.Q:~BIF.: They did not. HR. SMALLWOOD: They called on the Auditor General to get cracking. HR. CROSEIE: They called on the Auditor General to get cracking. That is not the answer. The Auditor General 1on June 16, 1969, reported on the state of the Bay Roberts accounts for 1968. If the Department of Municipal Affairs had that report then and knew that there was something "' wronr, they should not have waited for the Auditor Ceneral,they should have sent their own people over to take control.

If they had, they would have stopped a lot of whnt went on in 1?69, which was even worse. If the departMent knew of this, in 1969, they did precious little to correct it. Ohviously, the reason,why precious little was done, was because a menber of the House was mayor of that comnunity and it could be politically embarrassinr,. That is an arrument for an amendment that was introduced in this House recently- an ar~ument that a member of a cown council cannot be a member of this House also.

If that were the law, then there would not have been that embarrassment and I am sure that the Department of ~unicipal Affairs would have moved a lot more quickly. When I say the Department, I do not mean the officials of the department. They take their instructions from their minister, and they take their instructions from the r.overnment. So, the PreMier's statement 1 whcn the member for St. John's South was minister, that they knew that the accounts were in bad shape and ~ot after the Auditor General to prepnre ~is reports quicker, shows that they too~ inadequate action .

If they had moved sooner, they mi~ht have prevente d some of the trouble that the report showed. The hon. the Premier sni~ the Goverrunent was not forced to have an enquiry. That is pure and si1:1ple her.wash. The C:overnment h:td to be forced to have that enquiry. I spoke in this House on the ~attcr,a year ngo, and the Tl'atter of the 1968 accounts. I called for nn eni,uiry then. The minister then said that he was hnvin~ it investirnted 1-v hi~ officials. Th3t wns a year aeo. Then, in September, ,,:hr.n the rC';-C'rt '-'·"'" 455J

Mny 26, 1971, Tape 747, l'11gc 3 -- apb fo'orning. published in the St. John's 'f.veninf' Telerr11m 1 ·, the minister said he was ~oin~ to hnve his officials investigate again. I demanded the public en11uiry and the ''Evening Teley,ram'' supported it. Only after all that occurred did the Government agree to have a public enauiry. The r.ovcrnr,ent had to be forced to have that enauiry and there is no question about that. There is another misleading thinr. that the hon. the Pre~ier said,Mr. Chairman. There are not 250 town councils in Newfoundland.

There are 250 councils, and that includes as many as eighty or 100 community councils. There are.I would say, no more than 100 or 110 to1,-n councils or local improvement districts in Newfoundland. Not 250. So, the deparment is not dealing with 250 to'Wtl clerks. The co1111:1unity councils are a lot srealler operation. They operate a lot differently. They do not have - I would say, a lot of them do not have permanent to'Wtl clerks or to'Wtl nanagers. In the cate~ory of Bay Roberts and the category of actual town councils, there may be 100 or 110, not 250.

Whether or not - the Premier also said, which is true, we need more experienced personnel around this island,which is true,and I made that point myself. But 11n exl'erienced adr,inistrator, t-•r. Chairman, was not the answer to the problems of the To'Wtl of Bay Roberts. It does not ~attcr how experienced the administrator is, if he is goin~ to permit cheques to disappear, if he is p,oinp. to permit the sloppy work practices, the absolute lack of control that was evident in the Town of Bay Roberts, it does not matter how experienced an administrator he is.

What happened in the Town of Bay Roberts was not simply incompetence and i~norance. There was more than that involved, a lot more than that involved. Fxperienced administrators are not the answer or not the only answer for what occurred in the Town of Bay Roberts. The Prenier su~rests that the tlepart~cnt is thin\rin!! of settinr un three rc~tnnal officrs. Hell, the thin\rinJ! should cease ~•r. Ch11ilTl.:m. Thev should re set up innedintcly, The dep~rt~cnt should ~et rcrc personnel ~584

Nay 25, 1971, Tape 747, Pa~e 4 - apb Morning. inuncdiately. There should be more inspections ~oinr. on, particularly in tovn councils, lf they cannot manage all 250, that should come now and the other matters I su~gested last ni~ht should also be implemented now. The Prmier stt"id last nip.ht that he thought that I vas too harsh 11nd ,,ould like to be a lot harsher. It matters not a tvit to me wha{ the Premier thinks in that direction, not a bit. The point is, it is this report that is either harsh or not harsh. It is this report that "'e are discussinr,.

It is this report that shows - does not clear anyone, that does not exonerate anyone,that shovs a fantastic situation in the accounts of the To,m of Bay Roberts, in the way that the To'Wl\ was admini~tered for 1968 -'69. If the mayor of the tovn was tired of beinf! mayor or wanted to resi1,n or could not devote the tiJne to it any longer, then his ripht course was to have resir.ned as mayor in 1967 or 1968, before this went too far, Let us be quite clear: The Adams Report showed the evidence is gone. He cannot say who misappropriated ~oney or how the money was spent, because the records are not there.

It does not clenr anyone. It shows a very alarming state of affairs in the Town of Bay Roberts. There is no Question at all in my mind that the Government could have moved a lot '1•1icker and avoided a lot of the trouble that occurred there in 1969, had the Government had the will to do that. The Government did not have the will to do it, because it did not want to e111barrass a l!l(!fl1ber of the !louse who sits on the Government side. ?;!l. S?'ALl~~:. }'r.

Chairman, I said last night that it was the latest thinlrinr of the Department of ~•unicipnl Affairs that there should he threr. rer,ional offices and thnt in each of the three offices th£'re should ~ea stnff consistinr,in part,of inspectors who would ro out and twice a year visit everv council 1dthin the rerion, to which thr. hon. l'leMl-er '-·ho 1ust snt dO'-'TI savs•, "thf' dt'f'artr.r.nt should ~tC'I' thir1 ·1n" :,!-out it nnd do it," tCl which I rrnly that th<'y lrnve rerun to rln it. Tht'v 4585

}'11y 2', 111 71, Tape 747, Pa~e 5 -- apb t-<orninf!. have an office open at Corner Brook and they have an office at Grand Falls. So, they have tw of the three regional offices opened, and,in each of the two that are opened, they have a man, a chief, together with stenorrnphk help. They have not yet opened the third office, and,in the two that are opened, they have not the necessary inspectors who would make the rerular twice a year visit to every council within ,. their jurisdiction. I do not propose to follow the hon. f!entleman's argument. lie has made his argument last night and again today .

Today was in reply tony rc~arks of last night. I do not know whether he feels it necessary to reply to my present remarks, however, I would then feel it necessary to reply to his, and whether this might po on,ad nauseam, ad infinitum,! do not know. The need for strengthening the Department of Municipal Affairs is clearly ohvious and it is bein~ done and will be done . !"!!{..!._EARLE:_ t-lr. Chainnan, just a few remarks on this department generally . It is not my intention to rake over any more dead coal~ l)Or to wash any more dirty linen 1 in public , ref!arding the Bay Boberts affair.

There are,however, a few corninents which are nec essary. I think that the r.overnment ~ust bear full responsibility for this unfortunate affair. It is not the responsibility entirely of the department officials themselves nor of the officials of the Town of Bay Roberts. What it does come down to is a matter of policy of Government in the spendin~ of puhlic monies .

I contended,uhen I was connected with the Department of Finance, that before r.,onie s were parted with or were allocated on various votes, careful scrutiny should be made by the Department of Finance as to just how the monies should be spent . twas responsi bl e for ~cttinr. the first - well, the Bachelor of Commerce people to ro to the variou s departracnts and set up proper systens. The re~son for that was that my officials nt the time 1 in the Department of fin an1·.-, 4586

nay 26, 1971, Tar,e 747, Pai:te 6 -- apb Mornini. were horrified at the slackness vith which some of the affairs were administered in vnrious depart~ents. In many cases department officials had too much to do, in some cases they did not have the experience in accountinr, procedures and so on to really see that all of this ,.,as proi,erly checked. Therefore, the Departcent of Finance, which does in the last effect cover all matters of Govert1J'l1ent expendfture, is the one that should have close control on all expenditures of money.

At the ti~e I was accused,by most of the departments,of tryin~ to buildup the Department of Finance, because, we were then in a tight period when posts and positions were not beinp-: filled. There were lots of protests from differect departments, that certain essential official's appointments were blocked by Treasury Board,of which,at that time,! was Chairman. The point was that we were, in the Deparb:lent of Finance, tryin~ to build up an efficient nachine to help and direct the other departments.

I considered it the key operation of all Government, that the Department of Finance, who does control all revenues and expenditures, should be the one to take the first initiative to see the proper controls were initiatied. Treasury Board as such, through whom all the votes go in the first instance, are the ones to see that this money is properly directed and to follow it up and keep careful tab on it. This is why at that time we were trying to build up a very, very strong Treasury Board, which 1 think since then has been soinewhat rather strengthened.

Also, to feed into the other departm~nts the properly trained officials that could help those in the departments to ~atch their affairs very, very closely. This all comes back to the Bay Roherts affair, insofar as it is ridiculouR for the Premier to say that this was discovered by the department itself and not by the Auditor r.eneral. This is so fundainentnl,rudil"'cntallv, thilt the departr.ent should,.',fter all. thcv :uc the people thnt are deolinl! with it, it is not the Auditor reneral. 1':mnlly. the Auditor Crncral does not ret unto sor.ethinr. l il-e this untf.l n ~587

·- ~ny 2(,, 1~71, Tape 7~7. Page 7 -- apb t-'orninJ?. year after it has happened. The function of an Auditor General is to check the work that has been done. He is not the person that really roots out these error~ and so on. This should be done within the department itself, The depart~cnt peonle, who are responsible for this,need all the help they can ,et from the Department of Finance and the Treasury Board ,. Officials,to see that they are follovin~ the correct procedures.

This all co~es back to a icneral slac~ness on the part of Goverrunent, in seeinr that the system comes right from the top down, right through the whole busiress. I am not reflectin~ on the officials in the department, becau~e they are very often overburdened with the amount of worl, they have to do.

They arc someti~es called upon to carry out responsibilities which they cannot cope with, particularly in money ~atters of this typP., I feel that where the thinJ? has fallen down, is that controls, right from the top down, ~hich should have originated in the Departnent of Financ~, did not io all the way do~-n through the systetn, As 1 say, we were busy tryinF to ,et this thing in order at the ti~e. I am glad to hear that more of these men have been appointed since,to help in the departments. This is where the essential control should lie.

I was always Dne who felt thnt 1 in the 1110ney matters and the exoenditure of money, the control shoul~ first of all rest with the Department of Finnnce,to see that the other depart~ents spend their funds correctly . The Prenier ~entioned that there was a course or should be a course nt the university in public administration . I agree with hin wholeheartedly, because we are very short of comretent public administrators, Now, back as long as three or four years a~o, there was a course of a sort at the university,in public administration, and ~y officials in the Deoartment of Finance were very keen on this.

In fact, they helred out on these courses and were trvinp. to see that peoole rot the correct ~rouncin~. lt die not ~o far enou~h. I thin~ that pu~lic 4588

Hny 26, 1971, Tape 747, Pnr.e 8 -- aJlb Horning, administration idea, through the university and possibly,to a lesser degree, through the trnde and vocational schools, should be followed up, should be strenr.thened, because the upcomin~ younr. men with good traininP, is the sort of thing that we need to ~et into the service, to help out the officials that are struggling with vastly increased volumes of work. ,.

The business of this Covernnent and particularly in the Department of ?'unicipnl Affairs and Housing, has grown to such an extent. over recent years, that it is !"possible to think that the old guard can cope with it. They are doin1 their best but,through no fault of their own in many cases, they si~ply have not got the staff and the help they need to do it, particularly in the line of properly qualified and trained Rtaff in this partucilarly difficult field.

I think it is quite co~~on knowledge that in fields such as housing, town rlanninr. and that sort of thinp, there is a great dirth of properly trained officials. They are difficult people to get, but there should not be any trouble in getting rroperly trained financial people, who at least can see that the proper finance controls are maintained and are functionin~ properly. I think this is one great criticism which ~e can fairly make of the r.overnn,ent in thii whole affair.

That the thin~ started from the top down, really in the directions of Cabinet,all the way down through the departments~ that this whole system is altogether too loose, has not been properly checked and the fault goes ri~ht back to Covernment itself. On the matter of housing; it was mentioned last evenin~ that a new pro~rn1'!111e was poin~ to be introduced where $6 thousand,! think it is.can be advanced to private individuals to build houses in various locations ••• !_P__._CROSBIE.:. That is a loan 1 by the way. Do not think it is a ~rant and rct it confused. ~IR. CARLE: A loan, not a r,rant.

Yes, ~ut this loan of S~ thousand 4589

M:iy 21,, 1971, T:1pe 747, Page 9 -- apb ~•orning. free 1 advanced to pr:fvote individuals to huild houses, and I think $2 thousand to comunity councils or town councils to buy ~uildinr. lots,sounds li~e an excellent scheme. Here a~ain this is a very dan~erous nndertnl :inr, insofar ns I think the public 1?enernlly may r:et the iden that there is J?Oinf to be another r.re;l!t handout here, particulnrly in ;l!n election year. As a lot of people m3y be encouraged into availinJ? of this, if that itself is not again very carefully vatched and controlled, the r.ove~ent could find itself in a terrific mess over it.

First of all and most important,of course, the department will have to see to it that the people ~ho get this money have the ability to repay. This is an essential must. Also, th('re ~ust be, with this, a system of seeing that things arc properly planned, For instance; a fellow !?OCS up an! puts up a house in a small village or toun. Ile has no experience nor knowledge of hov he is !9-ffectinit the future of that villa~e. He vill ~o in and stick a house down on a piece of land ~~lonJ?in!! to his father and, unless he p.cts J?Uidance and hel~ there ~ay be one outra~eous ness in some of these places.

You have such s1.tu:itfons as people- t.:ho have been helped out by the Department of Social Services. They F?et rrants to repair their houses or build their houses nnd so on • A fellov goes and ~ets a $6 thousand loan. Then he VT;l!n~les a denl with the community council or somethin~ for a two thousand dollar piece of land and he stnrts in with all ~ood intentions to build somethin~.

Right next door to him, within fifty feet, is some fellov 1o•ho has l-ccn on social assistance for the past ten years, addin~ hunks unto his house and all sorts of thin~s. lie has probably ten or a dozen chilclren. lie has a shack he is livinr in. All the conditions surroundin~ this place are horrible, and vou hnve no orde~lv or sensible developr,ent. A lot of this ~oney could, if it is not careful]v vatche~, be channelled into nreas where it will re cc,~nletely ~a~tcd. The rost appallfnr thinr, . and the thin~ which wfll neccl to he c:irr!'ullv chr.c:h•cl, is tre ahf.ltty c,f people to repav. ~590

llny it,, 1'171, T:uw 7~7, Par,l' In -- aph 1-'ornin~. Employment, as '-'C all know to our sorrow in Newfoundland, sol!'etimes is not a readily available thinr., A fellow may have a good job today at Churchill Falls. He r.i:iy be making good money and sendinf it home to start a house, but , this ti~P next week or next ~onth he mny be without employnent and he cannot find anythinr. to do. How is he ~oin~ to carry on?

J.t seems to Me that where people can do this ther.:selves, I can think of many settle~ents where you enter a place and you see the fellow who has worked and made some money and saved a few dollars, he is very often huil.dinr. n very nice home. I can name a nlll!lhC'r of places. For instance, if you drive dmm into Terrenccville anc! you look on your right and left ~oinr, do\m, that place has improved iMmcnsurably over recent years, because the people have had good employment, they have saved a lot of money and they h~ve built theMselves very nice homes on modern H .nes.

You see this happenin~ all over Newfoundland. Now, these fellows,who have taJ.-en the trouble and the care to provide for themselves and have provided fairly decent homes,are r,oinr , to look very askance at other fellovs - if this should develop into a handout, . thnt some people are getting money on thin~s that they do not intend to pny for or are not forced to pay for. I hope that this pror.rmmne does not develop into just another election ~i111t11ick.

This could very well happen, that some energetic and good leader in a place, who may be in. fnvour of the r.overnment or s~rnethin~ of this sort, he can talr well and he can talk people into providinr money for this sort of thinr. Certainly it must be followed throur-h to see that the ultimate end of this is 11oinr- to he an improved arut attractive settlcMent, the houses are 3oinr to he placed correctly, they are not r.oinp to he placed in a place where you cannot plow the snow in the vinter or you cannot get arour,d them or anythinr of this sort.

The whole thinr rrust he properly developed along sensible lines and not just a rencral handout. It sccr.•s to re, with the pl.ices that were nar.cd last nirht, the diversity of ther- and the 1,ay that thi!i is beinr fiprc;id nhout, it is 4591

Mny zl,, t971, Tare 747, Pnr,e 11 -- apb 1''orning. goinr to rive the department an awful headache just to watch this, because it will be here, there and everywhere. The d~partment is already short of officials, so how,in the name of Heavens,are they roing to keep a proper eye to see that this job is followed through properly?

I think too, just to conclude, that the department should work very closely indeed, it probably does, but I would certainly ,. encoura~e it to work very closely with the resettlement plans that are goinr. ahead in the various areas, because. here nsain people tear up roots very quietly and ~o into an area. They are not too sure what they want to dcnor where they want to go ~or how they want to settle down or anythin~ else. They need a ~reat deal of help and guidance.

It is all rir,ht if they go into a properly set up town,which has municipal controls and so on,where they are not just allowed to disrupt the whole thinr,. Some people are movin~ into areas wrich are not that well controlled, and they are creatinr their own problemL. They create buildinF problems, p.arbage problers, health nrohlerns and all sorts of thinr,s. This department must of necessity worl· very closely and 1,:eep a close eye on ~-hat is happeninp: vi th so m2ny farilies that Bre movin~ from place to place in the Province.

We are raridly bccominr. a much larr,er population and ,..e are all aware of the terrific 4592

M,,v 26, 1971. Tnpe 748. ~lorn in~ Sesi.f on, rollution problems and so on that are being created in various places, Unless we keep a very careful eye indeed on all of these building projects nnrl all of the cncourar,ement to people to o"C.-n their own homes, all of the n]/lces to "C.•hich people move there can develop a most unfiol:,r mess which will cost millions upon millions to try to straighten out in the future.

So, I do th:fsik,as I said in my openin~ remarks ,that first of all the financial controls of how this money is spent should go all the ~ay up to the Depart­ ment of F'innncc and the Trc:u:ury Board,to see that that is carefully checl~ed and followed all the way throu gh, not just left with the department.

They the "C.•ould not necessnrily then ret into~!.lort of embarrassl'lent that has developed for them and for everybody else over this unfortunate Hay Roberts affair, This in the last essence is the final responsibility of Govern­ ment,who has the responsibility for layin~ down policy, It is right at the top level that the responsibility for this unfortunate affair lies, !-flt. >.fARSHALL: ~r.

Chairman, I want to make a few re~arks,first with respect to thr enquiry in Bay Roberts, First of all let me emphasize that thcce is nr criticism,as the other speaker~ haw indicated, of the permanent orficials of the Oerartment of '!uniciral Affairs.

Having had a small bit of rxpcrience vith some of the local governments around the island, I know that the Munic:I rnl Councils here, the To~-n Councils rely very heavily on these officials and when they ask for advice they get very,very good advice from them, I '-'Ould thoup.h nnte that I was very surprised to hear yesterdny the admission by the Premier,to the effect that the Municipal ~.fhirs branch of thctt departr>ent of Municipal Affairs & Housing only consists of SC'lmr tPentv people.

This means that obviously these officials nre fnr, far, have to he far overworked 1-'hen they have !lo f!lany town councils to l,,ok after, But I emphasize avain that the officials have been doing nn e~ceU ent jor, ~·1th tn the scnne of their henvy workload that has been Tn ,n cffort,last nl,,ht, to indicate that the Bay Pot,erts enouiry \.',,s con,luctc.-cl nl"t ns a re1rnlt of l'ress11rc, l c'n not think thnt that ii. 4593

t•ay 26, 1971. Tnre 748. Par,e 2. ~ornin~ Session. nece~~ari1y on admirable tenet for the leader of the Governl!M!nt to take. Surely, if the Government i~ not, does not react to pressure,to responsihle {'res~ure,from time to time,it our.ht not to he in Government. Indeed it ought to be {'roud of the fact thnt it does react to pressure. I kno"·• I feel certain that this Bay ~oberts enquiry was taken into account, the affairs Jnvesti~ated purely and simply because of nressure, for no other reason, nressure exerted by members on this side of the House.

As I said, that is not the important noint that I vant to make here. The important point I thf.nk that arises out of the Pre111ier' s remarks is his statement 1 in attemptin~ to show that the Government did not react to pressure on the other side, it acted on its own volition,was the fact that this matte; the affairs of the to~m of Bay Roberts,had been investigated prior to the departure of the rresent minister of Supply & Services from that portfolio, some time ago.

One is only led to the obvious conclusion whv it trok so lon2 1 as to why the Government took so )O'.lY. in order to investii1ate this, have this investiration taken before. This has heen said by the hon. memb~~ for St.

John's ~est, the hon. r.cmber for Fortune Bay. 1 will not dwell on it any farther, excert to sny that this t~re of situation,of havin~ had an unfavour­ able report in 1969 from the affairs of the totm of Bay Roberts for 1968 or for any town for that Matter, the Minister in charre of the Department our.ht to have acted and our.ht to have acted swiftly. 1 feel that it is nr,w incumbent on the Coveml'lent to inform exactl~• 1-•hen the then }tiniliter o. Munfcin;il Affair!!, now the '1ini!lter of Economic Development, becar,a 111-:are of this. When did he actually re!'lort it to the C'abinet?

What nction w11s taken, the complete details with respect to the actions taken by the f.overnment vhen it became cornizant that certain,, that the tO'-'tl affairs of Bav qoberts vere not bein~ administered properly or that there vas somethin r. ~ronrl As I snv, then that import:mt y,art is not whether the investirati.cm took pl3ce ns the rei;ult of rres:"ure but really 1-:hy 1 t took so lonr for the 11ffnlr~ of this trwn to he looked into ,in foce of the renort of the /lutlltor 4594

May 26, 1971. Tape 740. Page 3. Horning Session . \ r.eneral, in 1969,concernfng the affairs in '68. ftnother very important point that I do not think cnn be passed over . at all, is the importance of certnin asrects of the Royal Co11D11ission into the town of Bay Roberts. llere. arain, l i'.lm not talkin!' necessarily about the acts of omission lo.'\iich the co1m111ssioner indianted were really acts of nei:1li~enc:e, l,ut I am talkinr about other 111.:itters which touch upon the porsibility, the y,o~sihility of ,. there havinr been some fl!aud involved with respect to the nffairs of the town ln 1969.

On pare 16 of the report 1 for instance, the Corrmissioner refers to cheque£ issued to a ~1r. Walter Bishop. Mr. Walter Bishop c&teirorically denied receivinp. these cheques, Now if you issue a cheque in somebody's name,it h as to he cashed. The question occurs, the cheque is made out in somebody's name, that person,the payee, has to endorse the cheque, lf the che~ue !.'as endorsed, it is missinr. I understani, but if it was cashed somehody had to place the name of Walter Bishon, if in fact he was the payee on tha t che~u e.

We nre entitled to know, we nre certainly entitled to have it pressed quite strenuously to try to determine whc, Si!!:ned that cheque, who endorsed !:hat chc<111e, that checiue thnt is now missing. It is to be noted that the commissioner hnn collateral evidence,with resrect to one of the cheques for one of the period of time,1-1hich r.iade hil'l <iuite s11tisfied with Mr.

Halter Bishops' stater-ent to the effect that he never received tt-.e cheque, Then again the ''ayor hi111Self \oll!A surposed to have received t,:,o cheques, Re denied receivin r. two cheoues totallinP. $120.00 on April 15 , cheoue no. 3196, July 12, cl.ec,ue no. 3544, for sixty dollar!' each. The point of the matter is; sornebody received the cheques. there fa $120 . 00 missinp, frnm the account. The Royal Commission cannot answer that because thC!re "1ere not 1rnfflcient details availa~le.

Then a11:ai n, on paJ?e 29 of the rerort,we have another matter that comes up, the ~atter of Oawe's Nail and Hardv:ire l.l nd terl,wherc the ledJ?er cards werP. nl tered wJ th resoec t to the ta:,,:ation m-·i.nr. in the ye.,r, Surely, the COP'll'issione r hns found, .is a 4595

Tare· 748. Pape 4. f-(orning Se!'lsion. matter of fac~ that this occurred. There is no need of my emphasizing and reemphasizing the seriousness of this findin~. But certainlv. perhaps there ourht to be,cleffnitely there ou1tht to be a further investiration to attempt to find out ho~• this octuRlly c-ccurred; because somebodv apparently, from re.,dinJ! this rerort, !'IOl'let,ody has chenr,ed the recC1rcs of the cc,unci.l itself. l{e "'ant to know '-'hy, if at all possible, and see that the nersnn ,. who did it, if they have not reasonable grounds,are brought to heel because of it.

Probably the most important, the most serious observation to come out of this report, one of the ~ost serious ones,is that contained on pare 331 where the commissioner concludes,after an exhaustive review of the expenditures for the year.that the sum ardsubstance of it is that a lot of money has been srent in excess of the budget, $51,300 .

"But because no job records exist or time slips or countin,. subheads desi~natinr particular works projects to which eY.pendituree were charged,it was impossible for me to trace the money to its ultimnte point of expenditure.'' So there is $51,300 the commissioner indicates was sner.t in public money,from the tm.'TI of Bay Roberts, nublic monies from the coffers of Bay Roberts, in excess of the burlret, that he cannot trace. In face of that, in face of that - we have another indication on paJ!e 31, if you lc-ok back to the report, where the col111'1issioner interviewed a ~tr. Norman, ~Ir.

French , who, (one was the senior vorks foreman the other was foreman, nr. French was a foreman, ~Ir. :-orman ~as a senior works foreman}- each one independently estimated that no more than fifteen thou11:,nd dollars was spent on public works durin11 1969. There is ~51,300 of th ls money unaccounted, has not been accounted for. I do not think that we can just pass this by, say this is fine, this in so, this is the findinr of the commis5ioner. The <1uestinns thnt l W(luld like to ask was whether nt any time the Department of .Justice had heen callec1 in to conduct nn tnvestirrntion or not!

A!'I obvic-usl}· the m.,,·or of the city c,f St. Jnhn's is a rine nan cc-r.misi;fc,n, 4596

Mny 26, 1971. Tare 748. Pa11:e 5. ~orninp Session. d id not have the staff necessary nor the author! ty to conduct an in depth investi1iation of this particulnr nature. Certainly his enquiry ~as lioited 1 as he hos stated in his repor~ the events occurred in 1969 and only in 11)69 ., 1 thourh 1 for refercmce purposes, he had to refer to certain areas or certain ti~es prior to 1969.

There must needs be some stare, there is reason because _th~re is reasonable grounds, I am not sayin~ there is, there ,. is what we call certainly a prima facie case of some monkey business and possibly fraud, serious fraud, arising out of the findings of the commissi.oner. I think that there must need be at some time,whether it has been do:ie in the past nnd nothing has t-cen found, whether it is done now, hut certainlv I feel the findin~s of th~ co~missioner ought to be referred to the department of Justice - an approprfate investiration should take place.

After all, this is what vould hnpi,cn in any other :lnst:mce. !_his should happen nClW. The "Jity of it fs, is this~ that if an investlgation has not taken place through the reco~nized channels, rrtor to this time,it is going to be that much ~ore difficult for the officials of the cepartment of Justice, R.C.}'.P .• investir,ators, .. -hat have you. The detectives necessary to brinp in to play this investi~at!on it is goin~ to be very hard for them now. A job is 11:oing to be made two hundred or three hundred per cent that much more difficult because of the lapse of time.

This ties in to my original rem11rks, We want to know 1.,hy, why nothinp; was done \o:ith respect to the affairs of the tol.'11 of Bay Roberts when it was first brour.ht to the attention of the f:overnment1 We are told by the Premier thnt it was brought to the attention of the C:overnment,prior to the departure of the present minister of Supply from the ministry of ~unlci~al ~ffairs .

So, these are the points that I wnnt tc, rrin<> out and bring out Quite stron~ly 1 that there were findings in this report that leave one,on readin~ it,to believe that there could nossibly he so~e monkev husiness with respect to the nccounts, that there could be,nossit-ly be, fraud connected with it. Certainly there ourht to be an 11~nro~ri~te investi11:1tion,in acldition to the fact finding investlsz:ition nf the cnrni!'l'il"n<'r. 4597

'fRy 26, 1971. Tape 748, PaJ.!e 6. ~orninr, ~ession. ~•~ ,COJ.L IN~: Mr. Chnirmnn, hefore we carry the item,I have a few remarks l ,..ould ltke to make. First of all, I would like to make a comment with regard to the incident at Ray Roberts and a statement 1.rhich was attributed to the ex-minhter shortly after the report was made known.

As I recall, the minister, in 11n effort to soft-tread or white-"1-•ash the report, try and underestimate the importance nf it and the elleJiations of it said~ "it was ,. nothinr, unusual,nossibly fifty per cent of the municipalities across Kew- foundland were doin1t the same thing that was done in Bay Roberts.'' Now, Mr. Chairman, that is something which I have to tar.e very stronp, exception to, because it is not true.

We have a lot of town councils across :Jewfoundland, a great number of r.itizens who are involved,~ivin~ ur, their time on a voluntary hasis 1der,endinl!: all too much on the Yhims anc. other things of the provincial government. n,ose are the peoole, "lr. Chairman, who take the brunt of the complaints of the citizens of Newfoundland.If the ~arbage is not collected on time, :!'ey do not J,!O to the minister, they go to the mayor or one of the councillors. If the water line becomes broken or water is off for any reason.they do not ~o to the minister they go to the town council.

The same applies for the potholes in the street and so on and so forth. For the minister to insinuate that what happened in Bay Roberts is common practicP. in councils all across l\eufoundland is certainly a very sad reflection on the ability and inter,rity and the interest and the decency of the elected officials across this Province. I ~•ould have hoped that the minister or at least the Premier,tlho is ~uidinl? the estimate!: throur-h the House,1-•ill reflect on that because that is somethinr that should be cleaned up.

What happened in Bay Foherts is unique to Ray foherts, Certainly is not the practice in other communities. I would say also, it is a reflection on the employees of the deoartment,from the deputy-minister down. Recau~e if this is happeninR across ~ewfoundland, well then, if it is hai,i,eninP those reople should know about it. We kno\.' thnt thc,~e reoi,le do knm,• i.hat is _c,oinr. on. 1:e do knni-· that those reoolc "•ere t!le cause, in the first T"l11ce, of havini- the R:iv rf'h:i rt'­ ' 4598

,Mnv :!(,, 1"171. Tnpc 748. Hornin~ Session. incident investigated, I feel quite confident that if there is ·· another isolated case or t1.•o or three cases, the officials of the department are a-ware of them nnd \,.'ill have the nece~sary steps taken to have it corrected. I think it is ii pity that that statement ~as made. I would hope that today scme one on the other side 1,•fll rchuke that. Some one r.entioned,since I came in the House,that the department ~ ts rossibly overstaffed.

There is nothing further fro~ the truth, hecause with the tremendous i:rovth \.•hich is takin11 place in local governments throup.h­ out Ne11foundland,in tm'T\ councils and community councils, local il"provement dii<tricts, the load which has been placed on the shoulders of the officials in St. John's is tremendous, I am sure that we have not kept step in provitl tnr. the additional staff 1:hich is required. There is another real rrohlem,~r. Chairman.

Just a year ago -we hnd municipill elections, we find thR°: in a J?reat number of the councils, naturnlly, there was new peorle elected,\.rho have very little knowledire of municipal government.In fact there are some cases where all of the councillors all seven of them,mi~ht be new peo~le to that particular field. Tn s~me cases we have new town manar,ers and nev town clerks. People, naturally, vho are interested in doinr. a good .1oh are dedicated people hut 1 hecause of the co~plex:!ty of the operation,very often find themselves in a position where they do not know -who to turn to or how to do thinps.

I realize that the department is doin~ somethin~ ahout this. There ~as a seminar held in St. John's 1 nt :"ernorial t'n:!versity,a little vhile aro, tol•'ll clerks and town ma11ar.crs i·ere brour.ht in, some of them. But, certainly, this must be a continuinr process. It is not enouJ!h to brin~ th~m in for one -week or two weeks seminar, then for~et about them for two or three ,·ears, :.ow, there is where the s t:a[ f of the department comes tn.

I beli.eve the department here ~hould have 11ufficient staff \o:herebv in!'ipectors or whatever you mirht call them s=o into the field, tnlk 1-•ith tO\.'Tl clerks, tollll manaiters and councillors and hy dnlnr, this make those l"'COflle 11'ore :ware of the complel'lties of r.ovcrnment ll'Ot'e ,w.,re nf "·here lhev should turn for different nee~s ;ind rcnulrencnt s ,in 4599

May 26, 1971. Tape 748. Page 8. Hornin~ Session. this way 111al:e Rure thnt thinits are done properly. I believe were this done, were fltaff ;iivailahle,we mir.ht not see another case such as Bay Roberts. /Is I said,Mr. Chatman, those people who are givin,:: c,f their service vr,luntary. With the exception of St. John's and Corner llrook,where the mayor and councillors are paid 1 all the others are volunteer!!, they are interested in their co1!1!1tunity, they try and provide community leadershi~, ,. they ar~ involved in the real ~ut issues,if you -ant to, water and sewer _ roads and what have you.

Those people need all of the backing that the department can r,ive them, all the encoura~ement they can give them. When I say encouragement I mean financially as well as morally. I know there is a limit to the financial outlay sometimes but certainly those penple need every encouragement thPt they can get in tems of the work which they are doing. ~tr. Chai man, "'hen we tall about municipalities• as I said, the first thinr. comes to mind is garba~e collection, ~arbage disposal, water and sewer pror,rammes, fire-fi~htin~, maintenance and construction of streets.

Host of the municipalities across ?:~~foundland, by virtue of the lack of an inndequate t:tx base,find themselves in a position where they have to make great demands on the Prnvincial r.ovPrnmen accepted practice do"'-n thro11rh the years. nf course this has been the Many of the tm.'lls nave differ~nt systems of taxation, some property ta~ assessment, others have the service fee,which I believe the maximum to be collected now, the maximum is twenty dollars per year.

In the main, wi.th the exception possibly of one or t1,•o of them, larger communities, in the main they have to der,and almost entirelv on provincial funds for street ravinr- and for water and set-•er pro1ects . t recall last year when the first announcements were ~ade rerardin~ the neEE rro~ramrnc • the Deoar tmc,nt of Rer.ional Ecc-nomic E>:pansion. Now this depart­ ment t-•ns ~ul"noscd to flc,nt mr,nies into Newfoundlnnd, to t:ike care of all the needs of .ill the 1'enplc in 1111 the desir.nated VREE :treas. The ct!!ltrict vhich I hnril"en to reore-.ent falls in dc5il'n.ited area nurntcr t>ne, or ;1t 4600

!-lny 26, 1971. T1111e 748. l'nge 9. ~lornini Session. lenst it 'l.•ns one of the first areas to he designated for the lllil"flOSes of ORF.E . includinr. the Gander nti.trict, r.rnnd Falls District, sections of Levisporte District. The minister at the time and the Premier of the day,other ministers I 1-•ould sup r,est led the ~eorle in those areas to believe that I evcrythinr. wno; cC"rlinl' c>ut rosy_ from here oh.

It 1Jas ;lust · a matter of just applyinp. for water and se,-•er ,,roerammes,for street construction, for sirleva lks , for lnci~erntors, for fire trucks, you name it, you get your applications i n and OREE is going to take care of it for us. Now, as I said, this is 1,•hnt the r.overnment were spoutin~ all C'Ver the nirvays, over the television, at the Economic Development Conference and at every other opportunity "'hich presented itself, that OP.Ef 'l."BS poinr. to take care of all of our problems.

Ile know that the record of course shows us that that has not been the case because in the area which I just mentioned -, desip.nated area number one, the Botwood access road I think was paid for hy nRF.E funds -it had heen started before the DF£E pro~ramme was announced. The Sishop's Falls water supply was eventually, althou~h i t IJIIS stnrted before, was eventually tAken over and will be paid for by l)Rf.E. That joh is nC't completed yet. to have heen paid for by DPEE.

The Vocational School in Gander ,..as supPosed That is just started now, These are the only three rrojects in that flarticulnr district which has been approved by the OP.CE i,eople and conr;truction really i;ot started. I know that the towns, I am r,oinl? to mention some towns in my m.'1\ district but I suspect that the same yardstick cnn be arrlied all across the Province, Dishors fnlls hnve made npplication for rond improvements 1 for urr,radinl? of roads and pavinr.. They have nlso made application for housin~.

They have ~ade application for recreationnl suorort,~hich l realize falls under the Dt>partment of Education and Youth. The Botwood To1,•n Council has made representation, justlfjed,~ith plans and srecifications nnd vhat have you , conccrninl? 1o1ntcr and scuerace extension. so has r.anrler, sn hos flt:t-rviev, so hns ~;c,rthern Arm. so hns !1111'le ton . I would SU"l'CSt. so him f'rand Falls, Le'-•i.:;rorte. 'larystovn, llurin, rort ,1ui,: 11:i!''IIH ! " . 4601

Hay 2f, • l 9 71 • Tnre 748 . Pare 10. Morninr. SE-ssion. St. Ceorr.c's. St. Anthony. naic \'erte, Springdale. You name it, they have all made applicatlc-ns. ~:ohody seer.is to kno'-' "1hAt the status of the applications arc. I hnve talked with the officials of the Pcpartment of 1-'unicin:il f.ff.iirs, Naturally thry are not in a !IOSition tc, really say what ·the status of it is .

White they nirht have approved the apolications,they ' must ro to the TIREE romnittee, the liaison committee or "'hatever it is called, ,. subscquentlv on to OttaPn,I sur,pose, eventually he embodied in the overall DRFE rror.rar1rnc or the overall !"'REE A1?reement,1-•hich the minister tells us was roi.nr to 1'e sfrned 1.n Janunry, was ~oing to be siP,ned in February, :-larch, April, now it is roinr. to 1--e sir~ed on three different c-ccasions, in !•lay.

Well. 'Ir. rhairman, it all r~volves around Municipal Affairs. t:01••, this \"ork hiis heen done, the municiralities have done their ~·ork, 'the~· have co~e ur> "'1th rlnns, consi~erahle cost sometiMes in 1ettin1? consultants in nnd so on and so forty. Today trey do not know where they stand. , 4602

Hay 26, 1971 Tape no. 749 Pagel - MRW Hr. Collins. There is not a municipality across Newfoundland, there is not a mayor, there is not a councillor who can tell any of the citizens in his co111111unity if they are going to do this street this year or this street, if they are going to get a water extension, if they are going to get a sewer extension. Th~y can tell them about fire engines because some of those have already been delivered. They might be able to tell them something about incinerators. ~ Incinerators and fire engines seem to have gotten preference this year,for soll!C reason.

Essentially, the mayors, the councillors and the town managers do not know what is happening. Mr. Chairman, we are in the latter stages of nay, almost in June. We all know that in Newfoundland 1with weather conditions being what they are, if any of those projects are really going to get off the ground and be completed this year, certainly the time has come now where the comrn~nity should be calling tenders, at least calling tenders. In my estimation, the tenders should have been called long ago and the work commenced now, But they are at the stage where tenders are not even called.

Nobody can tell the mayors and councillors whether there Bl'e any funds available or not. It .i.:, all very well to say and it has been said by members of this Covemment, by ministers of the Government,that in the event that the DREE people or the Federal Govemllll?nt do not come through with signing all of the things or agreeing to all the things which has been recommended for the purposes of DREE, then Provincial funds will be available. We all know the record of Provincial funds, Hr. Chairman. I am very 111uch concerned.

I am concerned to the extent that I vould say;unlcss some worthwhile announcements, some is truthful information.,given to a lot of the mayors and councillors across th is Province and given to them quickly, there is a dam good chance that we are going to find a lot of councillors resigning, These are councils who were elected about a year ago, Some of them have probably been serving for ten or fifteen or twenty years. At least a new council that has been elected about a year ago 1has found nothing but frustration in all of their efforts 4603

May 26, 1971 Hr, Collins. Tape no, 749 Pnge 2 and,as I have mentioned earlier. thev are on the front line, If John Jones ho~ a problem with his garbage this morning or his water or sewer trouble, he docs not go to the Minister of Municipal Affairs or the Deputy Minister o[ Hunicip.tl Affoirs, he goes to the town clerk. The town clerk, of course, is a paid employee, Very often you find that he goes to the mayor and the councillors. Those people. being the genuine citizens that they are. they ,. are not going to put up with this nonsense much longer. I do not blame them.

They must he given the direction and the information which is needed to petmit them to at least deal with the citizens and make some sensible and realistic plans for the towns which they are trying to govern, Mr, Chaiman, so much for water and sewer and other municipal needs, I would like to say a word or two about housing. Certainly in Newfoundland today,with the unemployment figures being what they are - I think the last figure shows that 25,000 Newfoundlanders were O\lt of work _ there is no indication that that condition is going to improve t1uch in Hay month.

I cannot see how it can improve because,while some of those might have found work, certainly we are going to find a lot of University students who have entered the labour market(and it has not been recorded yet) are going to inflate that figure. We are coin~ to find Grade XI students graduating from the high schools across the Province. I would sug~est that the figures D.B.S. will be releasing in May will show even 1110re than 25,000 people out of work. All those people out of work.Hr. Chair111an ,and still we have a shortage of housing.

We have a shortage of housing in a Province where there is an abundance of work. There arc barrels of wood in Newfoundland which can be cut, which can be sawed into material.

There is lots of land around, I realize the land has to be serviced but certainly goodness.if we are going to move any where in this Province or any where in Canada.for that matter,(We will stick to Newfoundland at the'present time) money has got to be found to develop land, to permit people to get loans at reasonable interest rates and build homes, I beli•ve, Hr, Chairman, in fact I am sure that right now,if we intro,!uccd a progra11111c which would solve the housing needs for the people of this Province, (People are lookln~ for housinr.) at the sane time it 1o1ould solve the unemployment problem.

Certainly we c.innot pcnr.it this to r.o on. l am intl!r~st..:tl 4604

tl:ly 26, 1971 Mr. Collins. Tape no, 749 Page 3 in knowing what the Premier or who ever is responding over there has in mind in solving the problems of the people who are lookin~ for places to llve, shelter over their heads and what he is ~oing about the unemployment situation? As I have said, it is a marvelous opportunity to kill two birds with the one shot. We might say that it is going to cost someone money, It is going to cost someone money, if they are ,. going to find money to develop land and so on and so forth.

It is costing people money1if we h~ve to keep those people on the welfare lists as well, Mr, Chairman. I think the time has come,indeed, the time has long passed when we must consider that people, as I have said, are in abundance in terms of looking for jobs, Certainly there is a great shortage of housing, We must try and get the two of those in perspective, put people to work and make sure that the people are going to be properly housed. Mr. Chairman, I have a report here which I submitted to the Minister of Municipal iffairs durlny this past winter. I forget the date.

It was durin~ the early winter, This is an indication, Mr. Chairman, of the lack of housing which we have in Newfoundland. I will not read th,.ill all. 1 will just read a few of the surveys which I have done in a particular part of my district. Here is a place here, the size of the house is 16 feet by 20 feet. The number of families in the house is one family. The number of people in the house is nine. The type of foundation is wooden. The number of rooms is three. The number of bedrooms is two. There are nine people and two bedrooms. Bathroom facilities, none. The nlll11ber of exits is two.

The number of windows is four. The location of the dining area is in one of the bedrooms, Tbe type of heating is a wood & oil stove of galvanized pipe. The tvpe of m~terial that uas used for the construction of the house was lumber and clap board.but nothing on the inside. There is a note here which says that there are five children in this family - I am sorry I gave you the wrong information, I said that there were nine. Well thr.re arc sr.ven in the family altogether, There are five children and only two bedrooms , There are two bunks and just one sr.mll room.

There is so~c tcntcst on the walls and some canvas on the floors. There is no rr.cans of 46(i5

Hay 26, 1971 Hr. Oilins. Tape no. 749 Page 4 disposal of sewerage,as they have no bathroom facilities whatsoever. I have about twenty-five or thirty of those here. I am not picking out the worst ones. Here is one: A house 20 feet by 22 feet. The number of families in the house is one. The number of people in the family is fifteen, The type of foundation, none, The house is built on the ground. The number of rooms is fodr, The number of bedrooms is two. The bathroom facility is an outdoor toilet, There is one exit, one door. There are five windovs, The location of the dining area is near the bedroo111S.

The type of heating again is a wood and oil stove and galvanized piple, The type of 111c1terial used for the con~truction of the house was clap board. Thtre are thirteen children in this family. The ages range from twenty-two down to three 1110nths, boys and girls. There are only four beds to accommodate all. They ~ave a dining room and a kitchen. The walls are done with paper, The house, in general, is almost ready to fall to pieces, The whole thing leaves a lot to be desired. Ht. Chairman, there are about twenty-five or thirty others hEce which any member can have a look at, This is in one small

section of my district, I know that there arc other areas in my district where conditions are just as bad. Certainly, if that applies in Gander District, it must be just as bad in a lot of areas in Newfoundland, ~here is no doubt in my mind at all. This is what we need in housing, This points out the need of housing. As I said before, unless we deten:iine what we are going to do in trying to solve some of the problems of those people, then l think we might as -well close up shop here and let Ottawa or Washington or Saigon or someone look after the interests of the people of Newfoundland.

That is about the few remarks that I have had to make at this particular time, Sir. When we get around to so111e of the other headin~s, I will see what else there is. KR. 111 CK~•A~: Mr, Chairman, there are a few col'mlents that I would like to lllilke and before 1 proceed to them I would just like to 111.1ke one co111rnent in connection 46(16

Hay 26, 1971 MR. Hickman. Tape no. 749 Page 5 with the Bny Robert's Inquiry and that is with reference to the suggestinn or rcmark5 made by the hon. member for St. John's East. l think,in looking nt . any report of any commissioner, we should bear in mind what his function is. A commissioner is not a persecuter nor a prosecuter. He is simply appointed to m:tke certain findinr,s of fact i:-.nd,havinr, made the findings of fact,he submits them to government or whatever government may appoint him.

Coverpment then,having received the commissioner's report,is oblir,atcd to take whatever steps are necessary to correct or implement any of the findings. This report on Bay Robert's indicated very clearly and there was a finding of the slipshod manner in which the affairs of the tovn were being conducted. That can be dealt with in ·tvo ways, We are told that it will be dealt with insofar as increasing the ~aff of the Department of Municipal Affairs.as it should be.

Secondly, the voters in any municipality have a very strong weapon which they can exercise and which they did in Bay Robert's, if they feel that the affairs of their town are not being conducted in the manner that they would like to see them conducted, They simply can vt.1te them out of office. This they did do. But then theEe is the third finding that is referred to bv the hon, the member for St, John's East. I direct the co111111ittee 1 s attention to the commissioner's finding.

(1) He could not find conclusive evidence that public funds had been misappropriated, Then he goes on to say that these matters, with all the honesty and sincerity I can, must prevent me from reporting to you with unqualified certainty that there was absolutely no misuse o[ public funds. That is a reverse finding . I cannot find there was nor can l find that there was not, Then we have a certain specific item includinr, the cheques that were issued to Mr. Walter Bishop and one other person,l think, These cheques,according to the sworn evidence of Mr , Donald Dawe and Mr.

Walter Bishop.had never been received by them and in the case of Mr. Bishop monies were not owing to him. HR. CRDSBtr.: They we re cashed.

; Hay 2 6, 1971 Tape no. 749 Page 6 _HR. HI CKHAI! • But these cheques were cashed by someone other than the person to ~ham the cheques were issued, That opens up two questions,

(1) Who cashed the cheques?

(2) Why were cheques issued to men for work that wns not per(ormcd and for men to whom money was not owing by the town council? The other is the question of the arrears of buoiness tax and the changing of Dawe's Hardware and Nail Limited. ~ Now the point that has been made to this,and it is a very valid point, it is also a very serious point.

These findings by any commissioner and particularly by the commissioner in this case leaves certain - because of the very nature of a commissioner's appointment and because, as I say, he is not a prosecuter nor indeed a persecuter, It would be beyond his competence, I suggest,to make findings which are really outside his terms of reference, He can only find cheques missing, cheques not issued to certain persons and cheques having been cashrd.

With these findings, I do submit to this committee that there is an absolute obligation on Government to take the remedial action that is rPquired, What would you do~ foreP.t the Town of Bay Roberts, forget any municipality) if someone comes to the Attontey General tomorrow and says that I have in my shop the cheques that are lllissingl I do not know what is happenin~ but I have certain suspicions or in any event I cannot find the answer.

The obligation of the Attorney General, the first law officer of the Crown,is clear and unmistakable, He must then ask the police having juri~diction over that particular area to conduct their investigation to see whether or not a crime has been committed. NGIW it seems to me th.at that principle, which is so fundamental and which applies to all citizens, applies ~qually to this report. This is why in Ill}' opinion that the recommend~tion and the so~gestion made by the hon. member for St.

John's East,that the next step,followin~ this report and to clear it up once and for all,is to follow the usual practice that applies to every citizen in this Province. There is no citizen in this Province above 4608

Hay 26, 1971 Hr. Hickman. the workings of the law. HR. CROSBIE: Right! Right! Tape no. 749 Page .JtR. HICKMAN: The R. C, H. P. 1in the case of Bay Roberts, which is in 7 their jurisdiction, should be called upon to initiate their investigation to see whether or not a crime has been committed~ If it has not - they have very stronr. investigative procedures and very competent investigators. They have th11 :ihility and the right to call on experts in particular fields, if they deem it necessary. They can bring them in from their laboratory in Sackville • There is nothing wrong with that.

Indeed l would suspect that the member for Port de Crave will probably insist that this be done. if for no other reason, for his own protection. But right now l suggest that Newfoundlanders believe that there is something wrong that this procedure has not been followed. There may be discrimination. You cannot discriminate when it comes to law enforcement. The point that was made by the hon. Che member for St. John's East - I would hope th~t Government will indicate whether the police has been asked or whether the Att~rney General has been asked to conduct this investigation. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are some other matters that come up' almost annually with reference to the Department of Municipal Affairs and municipal government in Nerlfoundland. l make these comments knowing that we have on the Order Paper notice of

an Act to amend the Local Government Act and another to amend the Local Covernment Election Act. Neither of these Bills have come before the House and consequently hon, members are not aware of the contents of these Bills. Some of my comments may be redundant and may,e they are being taken care of. But each year the Federation of Municipalities of Newfoundland present a very comprehensive brief to Government.

They have been comin~ away with the impression that the brief is listened to and read and thnt is where it dies, I believe that our mayors and councillors throuehout this Province deserve far more serious consideration than they have been receiving, They have spent n great deal of time preparin~ a Resolution:, 4609

Mny 26, 1971 Hr, llickman, Tape no, 749 Page I 1'hey nre not made in a parochial sense at all. They are not made simply to get their names in the newspapers. They are made as a result of detailed consideration of problems that are common to all municipalities in the Province, Havln~ once ascertained that these problems are con:non to all, they then draft and prepare very reasonable,very logical and very well prepared resolutions. But this ir; the last they hear of these resolutions after they have been ,. presented.

I do not propose to deal with all the resolutions that are submitted by the federation at this time , There are some which I believe should be implemented now, Hay I direct this co111111ittee's attention to a Resolution that was passed and submitted to Government, unanimously passed,l presume ,by the federation,pointing out that a few years ago this House,upon thr recommendation of Government,created a Newfoundland Financing Corporation, The financing proccJures of the municipalities were changed and I belive were properly changed.

It is far better to have the Province, because in the final analysis the Province is on the back of the note 1 controlling and knowing what the liabilities of municipalities are throughout the Province and what the i..orrowing requirements of the municipalities are, Municipal Financing Corporation was created, The Newfoundland The Federation of Mayors and Councillors or the Federation of Municipalities in this Province believe that they should have representation on that financing corporation , It seems to me that that is a suggestion so logical, so powerful and so sensible that it need not even be the subject motter of a Resolution, Obviously, elected mayors and councillors have a better knowledge of priorities within the municipality than any other slnr,le person or group for the simple reason that they are the most closely involved with these problens, You may argue that if you put a representative from the federation on this financing corporation that he is going to be looking out for his own municipality first, But the record.

Hr , Chairman, of the Newfoundland Federation of Huniclpalities,gives a lie to any suggestion along these lines , necau~c a~y repr esentative who has be~n appointed to represent the Federation of Municipalities in this Province h:i.s shown himself to be a per,;nn who thlnks rrovinc~wide and who !.!1 not parochial in his thin king. 4610

Hay 26, 1971 Tape no. 749 Page 9 Mr. Hickman I would like to hear from the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs as to wh .. ther or not Government are prepared at this time to accept a nominee from the Federation of Mayors of this Province to serve on the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation. This does not take away from Government the right to control the borrowing of the municipalities. lt does not place the right to borrow in the hands of representatives who are not members of this House.

But what it does, ,. by the appointment of a representative to the Financing Corporation, is that it gives the federation an opportunity,almost on a routine basis, to get across to the members of the Financing Corporation the views of the elected councillors and mayors in this Province. Nothing but good, Hr. Chairman, can come from the implementation of that recommendation. Now there is another recommendation, as I say, may be contained in the proposed amendment to the Hunicipal Election's Act,which we have not seen. If it is then Mr. Chairman, it is a piece of legislation that will be very welcome.

That is the Resolution which calls for the separate ele~tbn of mayors and councillors. This, too, has a great deal of merit. The practice that is followed in ma,,y councils in Newfoundland ia that when the polls close, the man or woman receiving the highest vote in the town1at the first meeting of the new council.is elected mayor of the town. That does not necessarily follow.

Quite often you will find that the man who heads the poll does not want to be saddled with the responsibility of officially representing the town or he has not the time or his job will not permit him to be away as often as a mayor has to be from time to time. You sometimes wind up and I can think of one case but I will not mention ·the tm.nwherc the man,who came last in the last election and who had been first in the election before - obviously that vote has to be interpreted i _ as something less than a vote of confidence in the previous administration, as mayor.

He wound up again as mayor of the town because the others were not in the position to take the position, Host of them were hourly paid men 4611

Hay 26• 1971 Hr. Hickman Tape no. 749 Page 10 and they just did not have the time to devote to the job as mayor nor were they in the position to travel whenever the town's business demanded them to do so. This is a very simple amendment. It is a very simple request. It gives the voters in all towns in this Province the right to know who will be their mayor and who they want to be their mayor before the polls close. There is nothing wrong with it. It is enforced and used ,. now and has been 6r generations in the City of St. John's.

For a while, it was used in Corner Brook and I presume it is used in other municipalites throughout Canada. Then. Mr, Chairman, there is a Resolution that has been raised time and time again by the Federation of Mayors, in their briefs. But so far we have not seen any action, There has been a statement of GovernC1Cnt policy each year and that is with respect to the power of municipalites to tax Crown Corporations. The Resolution this year related primarily to Holiday Inn.

In effect it recognized the principle that 19.U cannot tax the Ccown,if the Crown does not wish to be taxed, But it pointed out very clearly the procedure that is used in other jurisdictions, the procedure that is used by th<1 Government of Canada in maintaining the principle of the Crown not being taxed, but at the same time permitting and indeed directing Crown Corporations to exercise their municipal responsibility. That is simply that the town council or the municipal council ascertains vhat for instance Holiday Inn would pay the Town of Clarenville,if it were a privately operated hotel.

Having assessed the tax that would have been payable if it vere a private operation, the Crown Corporation or the Crown on behalf of its corporation is asked to make a grant in lieu of taxes based on the tax ordinarily payable. This does not destroy the Crown's perrogrativc . This does not take away any of the powers of the purse, This does not destroy the perrogrative of Governr.ient nor the perrogrative of the House of Assembly . The Government of Canada. the Parliament of Canada,has not been weakened one iota because Canadian National Railways pay a grant in lieu of 4612

.. Hay 26, 1971 Tape no. 749 Page 11 lllr. Hickman taxes to the municipality in which they operate.

Mr, Chairman, this Resolution is going to come before this House nnnually,until there is a chanr.e in the present policy of exempting Holiday Inn and other Cr01.1n Corporations who receive and avail of extensive municipal services, There is no point in arguing that it is a small industry to the tnwn pnd that the town should be so happy to have Holiday Inn there and the business that it generates that they should exempt them from taxes , That same ar~ument applies wi.th equal force to the Motel Mortier or to the Glenmill Inn or to the other hotels in Grand Falls or Gander or almost anywhere in Ne'-lfoundland.

They, too, generate business and they too create a small industry, But all of these, including the Crown Corporations ,look to the municipaliti •s to provide certain essential services. 1 suggest that these ,Cro'lotn Corporations can pay, should pay, do not object to paying, provided that you maintain the Cro'lotl\1s perrogrative to refuse to be taxed by municip3lities. This can so easily be done by a grant in lieu of taxes, basel on the tax that would be ordinari~f payable by these Cro"'11 Corporations. Hr. Chairman, there is another Resolution.

It iR a pretty dicey one, Lut 1 would love to hear from Govemment as to what its views are on it and that is the suggestion that residents in a particular town,who are in receipt of able-bodied relief payments,that these 1110nies be directed to the municipalities to create employment for those who can work.

We can be here from now until Christmas ar~uing the various philosophies and the success of these pro~rammes in the United States and in certain parts of Canada, almost everywhere, Lut if you accept the principle that a man who is on short-term assistance is not there as a matter of choice but he b there simply because he hu been unable to find gainful employment 'then you may very "'ell find that these recipients of short-term assistance will be more than happy 4613

Tape No. 750 NC - 1 HR. HICRMAfl: and would find that their dignity is preserved and maintained if they were r,iven the opportunity to work on municipal projects rather than accept short-term assistance. This is the resolution that was passed by the Federation. I hnve heard no policy statement 1 whether Government believes this ls a r,ood policy or not, Mr.

Speaker, another resolution and another problem, it is not ,. so much a resolution that has been exercising and exciting to an1extent, it depends on where you live, town~and councils and municipal councils or municipal councillors.is the implementation of the DP.EE programme in this Province. Our town councils are becoming more and more plannin~ consciou 161 and this is all to the r,ood. They have to bear the brunt of the attack when certain irrate citizens come to the conclusion that planning is for everyone but them.

At the same time, if we expect our town councils to fairly and fearlessly enforce municipal plans that have been approved and are now part or the law. Lf we expect the co-operation of these councillors, then I think that the to~m councillorR in return :Te entitled to ask that they be involved in the planning insofar as the creation and provision of infrastructure in this Province is concerned.

This is one of things that took up a great deal of time at the last meeting of the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities and I thought that they made a very good point when they stated that the DRf.E programme is only in its infancy and consequently no hard and fast provisions have been or should be adopted as yet,as to the planning and the manner to be followed in creating the public services and the infrastructure that DRE£ is prepared to or hopefully will implement in this Province.

They si111PlY ask for more consultation with municipalities and with the Federation, before whole chunks of the Province are set aside or included in DREE or alternatively excluded from the OREE progra11m1e. Again, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities are entitled to know from Government what Government policy is with respect to consultation concerning the implementation or the exclusion of arenr, fn•m the OREE pn~~rmrT.ie. 4614

Kay 26, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 750 NC - 2 ~I_I.£1:~ ~.:. The last one, Mr. Cheinnan, again is very much similar to the problem in YhLch they find themselves in implementing or sharing in the implementation of the DREE programme, that is in the planning,the municipal plann tnr. for the Province generally. I c,1nnot find the resolution noY but there is a resolution in this brief which asks for closer co-operation and certain changes in the planning division of the Department of Municipal ,. Affairs so that there can be much closer co-operation between that division and the elected councils.

Because Hr, Chairman, not only is the town council responsible for enforcing the plan,as it applies within the boundaries of a particular municipality, but in many areas where we have, I _think the phrase is 'planning areas' or' planning control areas', that are outside the municipality, Government in effect appoints a ToYO Council as its agent to enforce rural planning, and most toYO councils do this with enthusiasm and they do it because it 111Bkes a great deal of sense because,as their towns grow,they can anticipate that sometime these areas will become part of their municipality and they do not 11an t to i nhe ri t unplanned areas.

At the Rame time, I think any official,in the Department of ~funicipal Affairs, and the Minister ,..111 admit that t:he town councils act as a huffcr between the citizen in the planning controlled areas and Government. lhe first criticism, the ire of people in that area, when they think they have been discriminated against, is invariably directed in the fir~t instance against the town councillors,who are only acting as agents of Government to enforce these plans; what they ask for now and they have been a~king for this, as the former Minister kno~s, for quite someti~e, is that they too be brought in on the planning for these development areas.

That before you ask the Town of Maeystown to assume responsibility for enforcinr. Government controls and plans outside their municipality, that they be called in on the planninit staite,so that they know what they are getting into, Sn that th~~ can point out to the town planners that their suggestions may rot be as realistic as they anticipate or feel they are. 4615

f>lay 26, 1971 (Morning) Tnpe No, 750 NC - 3 MR,...1!.IfK.t!_AN: Sometimes they can direct town planners,because of their local knm~ledr,c 1along different lines from that being embarked on. I can recall, in my opinion,one of the worst examples of town planning in this Province that could have been avoided,if there had been the necessary liaison nnd consultation with the municipalities, That is the planning that presently exists in the Marystown- ,.

Burin arens, The Town Councils in that area, anyone familiar with that area, knew beyond any doubt that the future of these two Towns would be best served if the plannin~ was concentrated on what is known as the Burin Inlet Area, But the To~m Planner from the U.K. did not agree with that philosophy. They wanted to take these two Towns and in effect try and convert them into English villagestwhich is just not possible when you consider the geography and industry in these Towns. So now what do you have?

You have a ribbon development in Burin, ext,mdlnr, eleven or twelve miles, imposingt directly or indirectly ,on Government. a burden to provide set'Vices,which is astronomical.

You have precisely the same situation existing in Marystown,where you have another ribbon development and you have the Burin Inlet Area now being developed at a rate far below its potential and the citizens of the two Tol.lTShein~ deprived certain essential and public servic es which could have been accommodated at much less cost, Now there, Mr, Speaker, is simply in my opinion and I am sure that there are officials in the Department of Municipal Affairs who would agree with what I am saying, where the advice of the people and the elected representati ves on council in that area was not sought OT if it was sought it was totally ir,nored nnd we tried to super•impose,on that part of Newfoundland, a planning concept that may work well in the ~idlands or some other part of the U,K. but is not providing the results and the services that could have been provided, at much less cost, 1he result is that those who have se'C'Vices are comparatively happy now, but think of the hundreds of families who have been deprived of these puhlic services because the municipalities j~st cannot reach on it.

I think th:it this resolution of the Federation, callin~ for a rr.uch closer lia lson ~nd better t'C?prc!wntati on from the ir Fecleration on nntters involving pt:innlni;, h:tvl.! a r.rc.it dc' ,'11 of v,!r\'c , 1f you bellcvc in pl."tnnin~ ,:rnd you have ~GiG

Mny 26, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 750 NC - 4 MR._!!,ICK!-IAN: to helieve in planning if we want to avoid many of the m1stnkes that occurred in the twenties and thirties,when people could build wherever they wished. "IR. HA~<;J:!A!-h:. Ile fore it carries, I had a few other remarks to make but before that,! wonder whether the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs, the hon. the Premier,is going to reply to the suggestion that has been made ,. or the report with respect ~ ARDA. None at all? Bir,ht! Well I go on then, Mr. Chairman.

There are other matters that I want to bring up under this particular heading, one of which is the matter that has already been spoken of before in this House, with respect to the Commission on Taxation for the City of St. John's, When this Session opened, questions were asked with respect to this long overdue Commission, that was, I think, started in 1966, co~missioned in 1966, at that time,to enquire into the taxation sy~tem in the City of St, John's. At that time also, it was noted that the ta7.ation system in the r.ity of St.

John's was archaic, 111onies were being lost to the City as a ~esult of this archaic system and th~t a more equitable system of taxation should be enquired into. The Co111111issioner, Mr. Douglas Fraser, as we all know,and at the be~inning of this Session questions were asked in the House and there is an indication,! think Mr. Fraser made to the press 1 that the Commission would be available in tlay it is now al1110st the end of May and we have not heard of its receipt yet,from the Government. Now this is very important.

There .:ire people who presented briefs, spent many hours rresenting briefs to this Commission, one of which I can think of specifically, Mr. Alex Henley,who is a former Councillor of the City of St. John's, who presented a very comprehensive brief with respect to the taxation structure of the City, This brief was submitted in January of 11J67. T-fany, manv other people as 'lo•ell took their time to sit down and write out their ideas and present them to the Commission. The Commission is also instituted coincidental with the Phelan Comnission.

It was hoped that both r~ports would co~e nlon~ tor~ther nnd could be used tonether , We are still w.,tttnr. for it and I do not think that we should h11 vaitin::: as lon(! as we 4G17

. . May 26, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 750 NC - S MR. HA.!!_SHALL: have and I would ask the Acting Minister of Municipal Affairs as to when we might expect the Commiss.ion, the Commission to be tabled. If he does not know whether any deadline is going to be put on the Commissioner for the filinp. of it and what monies have been spent oµt. and what negotiations have taken place, or what directio~s really have taken place between the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Co!llfflissioner Mr.

Fraser p with n view to havinr, this Commission reportf There is no doubt that there are many areas where the tax situation in St. John's is completely and absolutely out of date- One that I can think of is the Business Tax, which is based on the amount of rental that one is paying, It has no reference to the business itself, to the amount of the business conducted.sotconsequently,if somebody is in a very old buildinr.,paying a low rent, his profits may be very, very high but that person pay~ a less tax than a m;1rginal operation 9which happens to be operating from a 111\lre expensive building itself.

It is also the factor that there are many people who live outsid~ th~ City of St. John's, who work here and avail of its amenities, a~ail of the services here.and there should be some consideration given to, a certain consideration given anyway, to contribution from these people who are deriving their living in the City. Another area in this Vote, Mr. Chairman, that ve must turn our attention to, is the whole complex of Governmental Agencies that are building up in and around the metropolitan area of the City of St, John's, ~e have the City of St, John's itself. We have the Pippy Park Commission, the St.

John's Housing Corporation, the Wedgewood Park Local Improvement Council or Town Council,or whatever it may be,and Mount Pearl as well, added to which you have your areas of Provincial Covernment, Federal Government, with all of the various agencies that these Governments have. There must be,I think,certalnly a look taken as to whether or not we are building up a collossus of authority within the Metropolitan area,which is going to make it much more difficult for the ordinary citizens of the area to deal adequately with Govcrnncnt, to find the necessary agent of Government to respond to the 4618

., May 26, 1971 (Morning) Tape No, 750 NC - 6 HR._l!A_g_S!!_,\LL: need which that paricular individual may have_ at the time, I would submit that we have seen an instance of this in the area pollution in of Rennies River and the areaApollution down around Ouidi Vidi, indeed all over the place,everywhere, all the streams are polluted, One of the problams we have in Government itself is the fact that on the on& hand is the Department of P.ealth~it is a health problem,and on the other hand it is a Clear Air Water and Soil Authority, on the other hand it is the City of St.

John's itself, on the other hand it mig)lt be the Town Council of Mount Pearl but certainly,as a result of all these multiple authorities that are going up, there should be some co-ordinating bodies. Now there are other items that I also wish to mention,with respect to this authority in St. John's. Then you have the Pippy Park Co11111ission. Now here is a body that has certain jurisdictions, certain zoning jurisdiction within an area of the City of St . John's, It is 1:00 P.H. now Mr. Chainnan, I do not know whether IWly continuet MR .___[I'E~ER: It being now 1 :OD P .M, I leave the Chair until 3:00 P .M • • 4619

~lay 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - 1 The llou!le resumed nt 3:00 P.M, cn•"'lTT!".f. OF Tl'F 1-'l'OT.f 01! ~t'T'T'l.Y MR. CIIA tll~fi\N : nrc!er, pl!!ase. lie fore oyieninl? the proceerlinJ?s of the r.ommittec, it is my plrasure and duty on behalf of the Committee to welcome this nft<'rnoon thirty-i;t'ven sturlt'nts from Holy Cross rlemf'ntary School, r.rndf' IV students ,accompanied by their teacher, ?!iss Flora Burt.

On behalf of all memhers of the Committee, I bid you welcome, Shall 1in1 - 10 carry? ~\~~ tlr, Chaf.rman. before lunch t was talkini,z on certain topics with reference to thiR vote, and I would like to continue on now, Tmmediately before lun ch,! was talking ahout the situation which pertains in the St. John's area, in the City of St.

John's,Metropolitian area,where \.e are developinr,, as appnrent,a ;:oloss.1s of authoritv 11t v11rin11~ 1PvP1~ cf Govern~ent, two or three municipal levels of Government,with varyin~ functions, some of them more restricted than others, Provincial Government ~nrl the Federal Government etc.

In one area particularly.that I was talkinp. about before we ad.1ourned for lunch, when I '-'BS tall-ini:.- ahout thr Pipny Park Conrnirsion. 1''.ot that ComMission is doinl? admirable vork, as far as the function is concerned,to control the area for the purpose of the Pippy Park, but it 1.·ould appear to me and it would certainty appear to me that, this function could be quite adequately handled by the Government, requir1nr. certain zonin~ by-laws and YeJ?ulations to be administered by the City of St. John's, which I f.ecl could do it quite adequately .

If. as I helieve the situation is, that the Pippy Park Co11D11ission goes outside of the present boundaries of the City of St. John's, that could be currd by expanding them as necessary or ~ivin~ the City Council limited nuthority. Now then s~ain we have this Wedr.ewood Park area thnt is S?oim: to cause a certain amount of problems, because of the multiplicit y of authortty and the l!ou,;in~ rorporation itself. '.fow the St. John's Pousini: Corporntinn :when it was ortr.tnally envisav.ed,hnd ~ontrot over nn acrear~ 4620

.-. ?-lay 26. 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - 2 NR. MARSHAI.J.: of land in the City of St. John's, which has since been relinquished by statute, I believe, this was the original 300 or 600 acres, But certainly the original acreage that the Housin~ Corporation had at the time,in 194~, '!his was necessary at the time,in 1Q49,because of the fact that there was no municipal council or no municioaltty, the City of St. John's did not extend into the Housing Corporation area.

Governm~nt waited quite a long time to loose the ties, ~ut final it did. l'owever, I would point out that there is still another step that should really be taken with reference to this, The St John's llou§iruz. Corporation, in the newer areas of St. John's, is lessor of most, if not ell of the land, but a r,ood deal of the land in the newer part of St. John's itself. It is lessor at a nominal rent, rent of $1.00 a year is demanded, It is lessor purely and si~ply because it can exert the sama control over these properties, if necessary, as would have been exerted by a municipal council, by the City of St.

John's itself, Now you could bear in mind that this particular scheme was envisaged to stren~then the St. John's Fousin~ C~rporation 11n 1949,prior to the extension of the boundaries of the rity of St, John's itself, but the situation sill pertains. AN HOH, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: It is not used, but it can be used, the covenants, and the restricted covenants that emcumber many properties in the newer areas of St, John's.

I feel that the Government should go full circle now and.where you have nominal rentals, land rented at nominal rentals, the statute should be put through, a statute would be the easiest way to do it 1 to cancel out all rights which the Housinr, Corporation have over these properties, in which it is renting at a nominal rental. I am not talking about the ones that are rented on a yearly rental. To cancel out all rights it has with respect to these properties and created them as 4621

llay 26, 1971 Tape 751(nfternoon) PK - 3 T'R. -~•~R~IIALL~ freehold properties instead of leasehold properties, leavin~ the administration and the matters in the leases themselves to he administered by the City of St, John's, Lecause all of the covenants really relnte to rroviriinP 1 fn effcct,what a city council would require to he provided hy renulation. Then, nr,ain on this particular vote, I do not think we could let this minister's office r,o without agnin another reference to Elizabeth Towers.out on Elizabeth Avenue.

Now a question was asked with respect to Elizabeth Towers and the reply given• 1he question asked,how rnany apartments have been rented? The reply given was1 there were forty-seven apartments rented. Ninety-seven percent of the commerical space was rented, hut the apartment rental was only forty-seven, A similar question,that was asked over a year a~o now,indicated that then there were only thirty apartments rented at Elizabeth Towers. So it is quite evident that all is not ~oing well for Elizabeth Towers.

Then the question was also asked 1 for the month of Oecember what were the expenses? ~nd we were given expenses to some $19,JOO odd, that these ~ere the total cost of operations in Decenher 1°70.

No,1 it may well be because of the wo~din~ of the question. the answer ~iven vas $1Q,300. r.ut in effect very much more than $19,000 was the actual cost for F.lizsheth Towers in December, because they have borrowed, as we know1 a sur.i of $5 Million in total,upon which interest charges are being paid, and that works out to a minimum of at least $30,000 per month, \..'hich would have to he added to these fi~ures of expenses of $lq,ooo. So there we come up with $49,000 .

Also not included in the figures given, of expenses in December, perhaps because they were not paid in necemher hut certainly they would have to be a portion of the yearly expenses that have to be attributed to that month,is the cost of insurance, the cost of taxes, the cost of elevator services etc. So all in all, when you set this off apainst rentals t~at were received in that month,of some $3,oon, you are still in a position,at the 4622

May 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - 4 !·'R, ~IAR~IIAl,L: end of Jlecernher 1970,of Elizabeth Tower.!! losinp, in the vicinity of S140,000 to $150,000 per year. Now we were.told hy the ChaiTI11an of the Housinp, Corporation and the Chairman of Elizabeth Towers it.!lclf,a fell years ar.o, when this matter was hrour.ht up forcibly that l"h, yes; Churchill Squnre Apartments took a i.•hile to rent. They took a year before they were rented in full, and apartment houses take a while in order~ to pay for themselves, This is true.

But an appreciable period of time has since pnst and we have only forty-seven percent of the apartments rented, While it is true we have a large part of the commerical space, most of the commerical space is rented to Government ar,encies, such as the ~•edicare Coll!ffli.!lsion, St. John's Housing Corporation, it9elf, and I believe Co~puter Services,as well,occupy some of the space there in Elizabeth Towers, So in effect "1e are paying the rent 1 to make the position less favour;ihle than 1t actually is.

When this Elizabeth Tovers was envisaged and afte"'rards when que.!ltions were asked.we were told that even with full occupancy the net profit, they were operatin~ on such a narr~v mar~in that the net profit of Elizabeth Towers would be approximately ~2000 per year . As it is,we are not rea1 izing any profit at all. but a losii. t would like to a~k the question. what efforts have been made to reduce this loss by renting the apartments? It has also been reported and I would like comment on this,that some of the apartments.

I believe on the second or third floor, I am not sure, have been changed from domestic apartments to commerical space,which is goinr, to he rented to the Government in an effort arain to further alleviate the loss . But,in any event,only forty-seven of the oriRinnl 102 apartments now bein~ let 1after this period of time,is far . far too unsatisfactory, when ue have the housinit conditions as have been recounted in this House arain and ay.ain and as early as this morning by the hon. the member for G~nder.

Five million dollars of public money in effect has been placed int o a luxury housing scheme to take care of the rich , We hear an awful lot,from time to time,heinR said by people representin~ district outsirlc of St. John • s that, as far, economically an:'.,,~ay • as Fnr as 4623

Hay 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - S ~-...!.AR~Al:.!:...:.. benefits from the Government arc concerned etc., that Newfoundland bcrin!l east of the overpass. T would like to clarify that:, ?'ow it l"D).' her,in east of the overpass, but certainly very, very little has heen done by this Government for the area south of F.mpire Avenue, The old area of St. John's ,\•hich vas really the motivating force of the City of St . .lohn' s for the !it, John's !lousing Corporation anrl F.lizabeth T01o1ers itself.

We have a situation,tn these older areas,where there are homes that people are ,. livinr. in.:u<l thc,y find it very, very hard to obtain the necessary and requisite home improvement,loans from banks. They cannot obtain the proper loans for the purpose of fi1:inr, up these homes and makinr, the~ better, 1 1,1ould say that this $5 million, that vas used for F.lizaheth Towers, an<I sunl, in F.lizabeth Towers, c.:iuld have been r,,uch better used for the purrose of revolving funds for the renewnl of the older urban area of the City of St.

John~~- Instead we have hundreds of thousands of dollars that have been utilized from time to time, that had been earned, from tim~ to tir,e,by the St, John's Pousing Corporation since Confederation, which have been plour,hed back into land developrnents,and land devclop~ents, ar~ necessary, I know, tut certainly it was orir,inally envisaged that the P.ousinr, Corporation would exist for the purpose of keeping the price of land down.

I do not think,by any stretch of the ima~ination or by any means of judr,er,ent,that it can be said at this state to have done anything but r,iscrably failed in this task,when we have the price of land per .... lot so high as it is, llut in any event,the St, John's Housing Corporation is a corporation, I think it should be pointed out,for the area in and around the environs of St.

John's, which is north of Empire Avenue and has not done anything apprecinble for the area south of f.mpire Avenue,for the older part of St • .Tohn's,which so badly needs funds made 11.vaflahle to it for the purpose of urban and civic renewal in the Province. This has been promised to many people.in the older areas of St. John's, but it has not yet heen realized, 4624

"lay 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon} PK - 6 '11'. ~'t\.!:;C:11Al.l.: I do not hov to question any further, I do not knov if there is any roint in ~ucst1onin~ any further the decision that vas taken by F.lizalieth To1,rnrs to build ,the St. John 1s Housing Corporation to build F.lhaheth Towers down on Elizabeth Avenue, Rut, certainly I feel that it vas a type of decision that has been taken in the past by the ~overnncnt, wh1cn 11111st bear the responsihility, ?)Ut I think the main motivatin!? force behind ihis decision came from certain permanent officials of the St. John's l'ous:lnr.

Corporation and I do not feel that this should ever be allo..,ed to happen ar,.iin, liecause, I say, this Province, which needs money so hadly 1 in effect has ~5 million 1 and the public accounts show that in prccedinr, years we ~ave lost anounts of ~140,ono and this amounts up every year.

In other vords, we are subsidizing the rich, the very rich of this Province at the expense really of the poorer people, who badly, badly need housing , badly need home inprove111ents That I think is one of theindictncnts on the Government,that this particular luxurious villa exists clown there on Elizabeth Avenue, So those are the points, Mr, Cl,airman, that I should like for the hon. the Premier to consider. (1} ~re the Govem111ent prepared to take a stand and to direct that the long awaited report of taxation for the City of St. John's.to give the Collll!lissioner now a time limit within which Mr.

Fraser must present his report,

(2) We come to the business of the multiplicity of local governments of various local authorities and boards that are existing in and around the Metropolitian District of St. John's, what has been doing to co-ordinate theke efforts, but most important, to make it more easily appreciated by the citizen in this Metropoi itian area to which organ of ROvernMent he goes. (3} What exactly has been done with respect to F.lizaheth Tovers,which has lost money since its inception and is still losing money.

(4) I have to advert to this ap,ain; if the Premier is not going to c011'1!1ent on the observations made,with respect to "the affairs of Bay Po~erts, and is not prepared to comment,with respect to the points raised that certain matters in the report should be referred ~625

May 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - 7 t'R. \tAR~IIAJ.t.: to the Departml'nt of Justice, T should like the Premier to tn,lfc:ite to the House why in effect he is not prepared to do this? As I feel it certainly ~hould be done for the reasons outlined so eloquently by the hon. the member for Rurin,when he was 11peaking here today, MR. C~J.J.TX!-: Mr. Ch a i man, be r ore we let the item pass, I overlooked one particular aspect this " ornfnr,,which possibly creates the greatest natural burden 09 municipalities across the Province and that is the burden of upgradinp and reconstructinr. and paving roads.

Up until a couple of years nr.o, 1968, t hel:feve, there was a fifty.- fifty cost sharin,z arranr,erient, where~y the Province paid fifty percent of the cost of up~radin~ and pavin~ and the municipality,thrnuch raisinr. loans or whatever,paid the remaininr. fifty percent. Jn 1n6R that arran~ement vas thrown out. It had not been replacC'd• There is no arrann ~nent of fifty-fifty, seventy-five - twenty-five nor anythinr, else noti', other than normal Ltrants, I wonder would the Actinr, Minister, the Premier,respond to that as well7 Hr.

Chairman, ~hile I am on my fe~t,Jt mir.ht be appropriate at this time for rne to welcome •iayor Dominic and Councillor Boone and Toun 'Ian.aper Baker from r.ishop's Falls. I think i ~ most appropriate that they would be here today. on I suspect they are,municipal business, and certainly, since we are debatinr. the Department of Municipal Affairs estimates, I think it is most appropriate that they could be in the chamber. ~R..:..Cnn~ Mr.

Chairman, I cannot understand why the hon , the Premier has not replied, as the Actinr. t1jnfster,to the points t hat have been raised here nhout the enquiry into Bay Roberts,number one, and there has heen quite a fe11 other points raiserl also, There has been the question of the Fraser r.or:unis,lion and the City of St. John's raised. The Premier has not ans~ered the point that t he member for St. John's East: made this ~ornin F, , when we were adjournin r , that there is still no report from t'r.

IlouP.las Fraser,the Commissioner who was appointed in December, 1965,b y the Govemment,to brin~ in a report on the tax and revenue system of the 4626

nay 26, 1971 Tape 751 (afternoon) PK - 8 HR. ' CROS!HF.: City of St. John's- that is five and a-half years. As the member for St. John's Fast said this mornin~: we were told 1 two months ar,o, the second start of this report would be ready in Hay. Surely,with all the assistance the Premier has, he could find out from itr. Fraser today when that report is ~oing to come foniard, if it is ever ~oing to come forward.

He should indicate to the House, if it does not come forward within the next month or two months,that there is goin~ to be ,. some other Commissioner appointed or the whole thing washed out, One or the other, but there should be some answer to that question. Secondly, l'r. Chairman, there have been questions raised about the enquiry and the report into the Town of Bay Roberts, the affairs of that town. There is evidence in that report of criminal acts. That is quite clc:u in the report. There is no findinp: in the report that monies were n1sappr0Prtat~d.

The findin~ is that there is no evidence of what happened to monies and,therefore,the Commissioner could not say who had misappropriated ~oney or what had harpened to it. But that money was misappropriated.is clear. There are certain specific criminal acts mentioned in the report,that the Go~ernment should have investigated fu1ther by the Department of Justice or the R.C,M.P. There are the cheques that 1o1ere made out, five cheques made out to two employees of that council, who swore an oath that they did not receive the cheques. Those cheques went throu~h the bank.

The money went out of the accounts of the Town of Bay Poberts. The money was not received by the two individuals concerns, That is their sworn evidence. Those are criminal acts. Now the parts of the enquiry that relate to those specific criminal acts should ~e referred to the P. .c.~t.P. for investigation. If they report ' back that they can do