PRELIHINARY UNEDITED TRA1'l'SCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, M.\Y 6, 1977 Vol 2 ::-io 66

May 6, 1977 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Tape 2287 JM- 1 I am pleased to welcome to the House of Assembly forty-eight grade seven students from Grant's Collegiate in Springdale. They are accompanied by three of their teachers - Mr. Harold Tremblett, Mr. Barry Jackman and Mr. Myles Blanchard. I know all han. members join me in welcoming these students to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. gentleman from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Sir, it has been brought to my attention that recently a number of vehicle owners were involved in highway accidents and did not have insurance. Could the minister tell the House what the situation is now concerning_compulsory vehicle insurance? Is it working? Are people getting away with getting their licence without the insurance and on1 Could the minister give us an updating on that situation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the matter which the hon. gentleman refers to has been brought to my attention as well on a number of occasions over the past number of months in fact. Compulsory insurance came into being in this Province in January, 1976 and make it mandatory that all motorists using our roads and highways have insurance, third party liability insurance.

However it seems what is happening is that the motorists are obtaining their insurance merely to obtain the registration of their vehicles and their drivers licence and shortly after that they may cancel their insurance or let their policies lapse and still continue to drive on the roads and highways and as a result some of them are being caught in accidents even with no insurance. So because of that we had an overall review of the situation and we are now making changes and these changes are along 6397

May 6, 1977 Tape 2287 MR. MORGAN: the lines that first of all my colleague, the Hinister of Justice has been asked by myself, the minister responsible for motor vehicle registration and administration, has been asked to instruct the law enforcement agencies throughout the Province that whenever a vehicle is stopped on the highway or on any road in the Province for any reason that they will have to show three things

whereas now they are only asked to show two. If a vehicle is stopped now they are asked to show the registration of the vehicle and their driver's licence. From here on in they are going to have to show not only the registration of their vehicle and their driver's licence but also they are going to have to show proof of their insurance. JM- 2 In other words~proof of their insurance is just as important because it is aE mandatory to have it as the driver's licence and the registration of their vehicle. That will come into force almost immediately, in a matter of days, in fact.

Also,I plan to bring in amendments to the legislation, the Highway Traffic Act regulations, changing the penalties for people who are caught ~vithout insurance. And what we will be doing will be enabling the magistrates or the judges in making their decisions, enabling them to instruct the motorist to remove their licence plates,number one,or have the magistrate given the power to instruct the registrar of motor vehicles to take away the registration plates of the vehicles.

So these two items will take place, these two procedures by the Department of Transportation in an effort to overcome the problem of vehicles using our highways without insurance. It is a law. It is compulsory. It is mandatory and we 'tvant to make sure that law is followed, MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the original questioner. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate just in the minister's opinion how widespread is this problem and can the minister, can the department wait until vehicles are stopped~you know,for some other reason before 6398

May 6, 1977 Tape 2287 JM- 3 MR. NEARY: checking into this matter? You know,would it not be better to set up road blocks or road checks, rather check points,and check all the vehicles to see if they are covered by insurance because if you have to wait,nine chances out of ten a lot of them will never be caught? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. MORGAN: Mr •. Speaker; that part of the enforcement is a bit difficult based on the fact that - Of-. course there are· a number people driving without even driver's licences throughout the Province,and unless . 6399

~'ay 6, 1977 Tape no 2288 page 1 - m.s ~'r. Yorgan. There i.s an overall, Hay-out campaign- a major effort ,I should say, of the la-,;.1 enforcement agencies to track dor..:n the peoDle ,,rho., number one, have not got even a driver's licence , ancl in this case, number t~,·o, have not got insurance. it is a very Clifficul t thing to enforce. But I am hoping that when the laF enforcement age:-,cies receive these ne~-7 instructions that they r..!ill go all out in an all. out effort to trad: dot·m those peo-ple Pho are driving - in fact driving illegally , because trey have to have insurance before they drive.

If they C.o not have insurance, and they are driving, they are driving i] legally. So I am hoping the la\v enforcenent ::tgend .es \•Jill go on an all out effort. One more supplementary. !~ .• SPEAKE~: A final supplementary by the hen. mem.rer. ~~. . NEA:RY: ~·fr. Speaker, I Hould lik e to ask the mtn i ster if the number of licences issued in the Province this year are up or do~~? /md my understanding is that the number is do~vn substantially. Could the !!linister confirT!' or 0eny this and tell us \vhy it is dot,m? The hon.minister . ~~r.

Speaker, I Fill have to take notice of the questjon, 'because I cannot ,\!ive the exact fip:ures on hem T!'.any f!dvers' licences have been issued. I do knot-J that the nu!T'.'l:-er of vehicles registerec in the Pro,rince, !'1otor vehicles, are up over last year thj.s same time.

So I am assumin g that the number of clrivers' 1 icences are c:d so up over last year. me additional supplementary from the hon. member for T.Jindsor - Buchans and then. the hon. gentleman for Fortune - EermitagE? ~m FLIGHT: The prohlem seems t0 stern, according to the minister, from the fact that drivers Hill cancel thejr insurance after. recelving t1-.e~r re~:'":~rat-~o~. This is haDrening. ~1L ?:TE/>.l'Y: Or let them run out. }'F.

FLIGHT: Is it possible for the Province t() make it mandatory for the insurance companies to notify Notor ?_egist-ratj on vhen licencecl drivers cancel their public liability insurance? 6400 •

~'ay 6, 1977 Tape no. 228R Page 2 - IT'S ~-P. .• J. CAPTER: A little pctranoia goes a lon? ~,ray • ~'}' .

SPEA"'-E?: The han. minister . }'n ~'()PGAN: Yes, ~ ·rr • Speaker, that is possible, but it is a nightMare -vk.en it comes to administering that kjncl of thing, because,for exal"'OpJe,if I had insurance - ~-:ell take, for exar.:ple, wi.th ~unn 's insurance or Johnson's insurance or any of them, "Y insurance company, and I let my policy lapse as of yesterday, and the company then v7 ould notify the Pegistrar of ~·otor Vehicles that ~~cr?an 's insurance has lapsed, and then the follo1ving da y the 1m·: enforcement a~ency coMes down to "!!le, sent by the "Peg:istrar of \fetor Vehicles saying, "~cr. ~·organ, Hhere :is your proof of insurance? 11 I pull out my card, and say -, ''Pell, I got my insurance changed over from TiovJTings as of yesterday to somebndy else today .\1 X yestercay, B to~ay.

So that kind of th:inr is very difficult to acr1inister, and that is re::1J.ly a nightrr.are. So 1-re are hoping that by an overall major effort of the JaH enforcement agenci\';S in tracking dovTTI these people Fho are driving illegally that will overcome the problem '>7 e now have. MP... SPEr'\l~P: The hon. memher for Fortune - Fermitage. MP .. J. T.JH~SOR: ~~ r. Speaker, my question is really directec1 to the ~finister of Tourism, but I see he is not in his place, and possibly it should so to the Premier's office. I believe the Premier's office has been contacted on this particular thing.

And the question is, big game applications for licences have to ~e picked up by one person, the person \·Tho wants that licence, he has to go to a certain place to pic? it up, and in the case of the Eastern sectioD, in the social serv:i.ce offices, Bay L 'Ar~ent is left out, and I am ~-;ondering ~.;hether the people of Bay L 'Argent vJjll have to go to Terrenceville or Grand Le Pierre ,or if Grand Le Pjerre e.Pd Terrenceville they going to go? There is a bit of confusion in this. - uhere are I have received some ~o~plnints from my constituents this morning.

The Bay L' · ~rge~t office should be included in the temporary social 6401.

?~ay 6, 1977 Tape no. 2288 Page 3 - !".S ~ 'r. J. ~.Jinsor: offic.e.s. T.-:ere is a great harc.ship put on the fisheTT:!en \·Tho may be - I a!'l sorry to have to e;o through thj_s

preamble, but it is important to get the pojnt over. A lobster f:i.sherman fishing up in Belle Bay or up in tre bottom of F_ortune ·r..ay has to go to either Belleoram, a.ppear in person, he couJ.C! lose a fair amount of revenue fro!'l his lobster fishing just to get a big game licence. I am •mndering if the minj_stcr ''ould look at this? There are some anomalies in the different places to have to go. Part of the district is in Eastern )Tefoundland, the other

part is in Central ~·TeH·Eoundlanc'. There is some confusion r.ere. ~'!' . SPEA1."'EP: The hon. Pre~ier. P ~?!<: ":': IER l ~ O OPES: }'r. Speaker, as I understand it - and the minister is not here this !llorn.ing - but as I understand it, ;:my eirl.ployed person by the provincial govermr.ent Ph.o 1•7 ill be visitir. g the area, r-Thether it is the Social Services office or -.;-;hether it is someone f~om the rerarti'lent of Forestry, or some Fisheries officer, whatever the case ~.a y he , an y of them people can accept these licences.

But I ~-.rill certainly take notice of it, and have the nd.nister give a formal statement here to ensure the clarity of it, hecause the intention is w"tere.ver there is ~.-cyone froro the provincia.l governtr'ent, an official, visiting these peorJe, they are in a position to accept these licences, hut I vrjll zet that clarifiec for the hon. me~_ber. MR. J. HINSOR: ~'1'... SPE.t\F'.E'P : r~, J. THNSO'P: A supplereentary. The han. p,entleman has a supple!Tientary.

Another problem is the fact that it is a pre-arranged date and one date only. _For a fisherman this could be very aFl<.~Jard~as !'10St people ~·:rho knm·J fisher!"'en ~,rill understand. It is one date and one date only for a particular ~rea. 6402

~'i ay 6, 1977. T!3-pe 2289 RH - 1 ~·IR . SPEAK2R: TI1e han. Premier. PREiiER !'100RES: Hr. Speaker, this is to submit applications for licenses; I understand. Is that correct? I think the situation is} and it certainly is my understc~ding,that it is up to a certain date, any time up to a certain date. If that is the case, as the member says, I also agree that is ~vrong and certainly something that can be corrected. ~,fR. SPEAKER : A supplementary. HR. J. \H~~ SOR: A supplementary. For the Premier's information it says here, "Applications on a pre-arranged date to he announced in each area." UR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. ~!R. I. STRACHAN: ~·':r. Speaker, I have a question for the l·finister ef Transportation. Could the minister give us any update on any cost- sharing relationship bet\·reen this Province and OttmJa concerning the air strip programme for the Labrador Coast? The hon. minister. ~1R. J. EORGA:I: ~ir. Speaker, as earlier outlined to the House of Assembly. the air administration division of the Hinistry of Transport carried out a major study in the need for airstrips in Labrador.

And as a result of that study a report was made to the Hinistry of Transport by the air administration division along t:1e lines of ~vhat they call a master plan calling for the construction of t1velve airstrips. The approval in principle of the ~linistry of Transnort has noH been P"iven for the construction of these t1:·1elve • 0 airstrips and they have asked the Altantic region civil aviation division to implement the construction of these airstrips.

But the last indication 1-1e received ,a number of \veeks ago, was along the lines that the civil aviation division of the Atlantic region could not implement th~s progra~~ till possibly 1980. This means now ·,,e ";olill be holding meetings in the very near. future and discussions 'tvith 6403

~'~ay 6, 1977. Tape 2289 PJI - 2 :MR.. HORGAi'l": the Ninistry of Transport, the bon. Otto Lang and other officials in Ottrova along the lines to get this programme cow~enced in the 1977 construction season. L r:R. . S TRAC11. .. ~1 : A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. S TP-ACHAN : Could the minister tell us \vhether there is any t<'llk of transferring some of the CN subsidy to airstrip building programme?

I believe the talk is along the lines that the subsidy for CN coastal vessels, for instance, that if there were airstrips then some of this money could be transferred over to the construction of airstrips. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. l.IR. HORG.A:i: Hr. Speaker, that discussion really came out of a meeting that \vas held by the Atlantic Provinces ~or Haritime Premiers' Conference really at Charlottetown with the federal minister, the hon. Otto Lang, At that meeting this Province- I Has there on behalf of this Province at that meet in~.

The conclusion of that meeting \vas that the Atlantic Provinces agreed with the Federal minister on his proposal to rearrange the subsidizations and subsidies paid for transportation in the Atlantic region,and therefore that there was a possibility of subsidies Hhich were normally paid for coastal boat services or other services, in fact like rail passenger services was one as well, that these could be reallocated to other modes of transport,and other modes of transport referred to in fact were road,in the case of bus transportation and the Trans-Canada Highway upgrading, etc., and also air transport, in this case the construction of airstrips along the Labrador Coast. i·;R.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. Then I recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR.. STr--ACHAN: A final supplementary. Could the minister outline \vhether there has been any consideration given to looking at only possibly 6404

:::iay 6, 1977. Tape 2289 RE - 3 ER . ST P-.~.\ Cnili'i : four airstrips in the near future and looking at other - using twin engine aircraft and using a feeder service of bush plane aircraft into these larger centres rather than going for the whole bvelve airstrips at this time at lvhich I do not believe the money l·muld be available? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. ?'ill.. HORGAn: Hell, :'·1r.

Speaker, first of all the master plan ~vas calling for fifteen airstri?s, and it was after discussions held with thP Department of Transportation here in the Province that they reconsidered the master plan for fifteen. ~Tow it is only dmm to tuelve, based on the fact they felt there \vas no need for airstrips in some of the places, Fox Harbour ·Nas one and Cart'ivright a second. 1 Fox Harbour being close to ?-Iarys Harbour and - not Cartv1righ t, but Paradise River, I am sorry, Paradise River being in close proximity of Cartwright and possibly of a road construction there.

So \ve are hoping that upcoming I7leetings <;vi th Otta1va \vill conclude in a decision made to commence the construction of these airstrips this year and 1ve l·lOuld like to see at least the comr:1encement of three if not four. And these Hill combine, of course, ~.;ith our ongoing provincial progra."T'.me -.;-;hereby ,.,.e have no':-7 an airstrip in Cart'IV'right 1vhich will be completed this year in 1977. And 't·7e are hoping to get, He mentioned earlier in Nain, ~ [akkovik and ~'[ary 1 s Harbour, at least these three commenced in 1977 if the feds vlill go along lvith it. 6405

May 6, 1977 O~orning) Tape "L'-~o. 2290 1'-!R. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Health. Could the minister be good enough to give us some indication ~vhen the promised bill relating to the denturists "toTill be brought before this House? ~m. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. NM - 1 ~fR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot add anything other than what I have indicated on three or four different occasions and that is that ~ve hope to have the bill ready for this session. }1R. NOLA... \I: ~'fR • SPEAKER: ~fR. )TOLAN: A supple!llentary, ~1r.

Speaker, A supplementary. t.Jould the minister be good enough then to assure the Rouse that he v7ill sit d0'<;-.'11 and consult ~vith the denturists before bringing such a bill before the House? HR. H. COLLI!'~S: He have already done it. '!R. "-TOLAN: Hill you do it again? ~. H. COLLINS: Weli- MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. '-IR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, a question for the ?remier, It arises out of the situation at Grand Falls where, as I understand it, the Chamber of Commerce and a number of other bodies have sent quite strong telegrams to the Premier, and I guess to a number of other officials and people in public life, including me; ~~ question is this, Sir, can the Premier tell us whether there is any ho!Je that work ~vill begin this year on the expansion of the Central ~ewfoundland Hospita11 l''R. SPEA..T<ER : The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~-fOORES : The answer is, ~1r. Speaker, no. }1R. ROBERTS: 1-1r. Speaker, a supplementary. 'm ..

SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~fR. ROBERTS: Can the Premier tell us whether the government ~.;ill be 6406

May 6, 1977 Tape No. 2290 NH- 2 }ffi. ROBERTS: in a position to outline quickly and shortly whether they will be able to undertake to begin this work next year? r1R. SPE.·W-.E'R: The hon, the Pre!!lier, PRW.·UER ~GORES: ~r. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition well knoHs that next year is another year and another budget. There are quite a few demands for hosptial extensions and new hospital construction in the Province.

They are all needed, Some are more prepared to go ahead than others,but the fact is, Sir, that any hospital construction or extension in this Province Hill not be going ahead until such time as the Province can afford to pay for it. ~. ROBERTS: A final supplementary, ~~r. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. HR. ROBERTS: The Premier says next year is another budget year, Of course. But it is also - we have the much ~·;anted planning effort and the planning effort certainly looks forward a year or t~·'O or three.

The Premier said, now this is my question, that hospital construction cannot go ahead until 'tve can afford it~which is a stunning insight into the obvious. Can he tell us whether the government have any plans or belief that the financial situation of the Province in the corning fiscal year will be such that the Province can undertake this e."'q'ansion of the Central Ne'tvfoundland . Hospital? ~. SPEL~~ER: The hon. the Premier. PRE-HER MOORES : }~. Speaker, the answer to that is that at this particular point in time I do not think it would be fair to make a guess.

The Leader of the Opposition says it is a stunning insight into the obvious • It is also obvious that decisions made in the past were stunning without the proper planning for them. "-!R. ROBERTS: Yes, such is the promise to build a hospital. 6407

~fay 6, 1977 Tape No. 2290 ~. SPEP...KER: The han. member for Terra Nova follmv-ec by the han. member for PRDHER HOOP.ES: You turned more sods in 1971. '~. ROBERTS: :'!R. LUSH: I did not turn any. I did not turn any, Hr. Sneaker, I do not know exactly o;.1ho I should direct this question to, whether it is the Minister of '-~'anpoHer or the President of Treasury Board,b~t they can make uo their minds -v;hen I have asked the question, ~!R. DOODY: I cannot hear the question, ~-fR..

LUSH: I started by saying I do not ~~now ·whether I should ask the question to the han. ~·!inister of ~fanpot·~er or to the 'finister of Finance and the President of Treasury Bcard,but they can make up their minds. It relates to the Haterford dispute and I am \•7ondering now whether or since both sides have agreed on a mediator w·hether the strike will remain in effect during the mediation? !"'!R. SPE ... \KER: The hon. ~finister of Finance. HR.

DOODY: Both sides have indeed agreed on a ~ediator, The mediator has not agreed on both sides as yet and we are a~v-aiting to hear from him whetl-er or not he \Jill accept the job. HR. NEARY: '·1'R. DOODY: ~vho is the mediator? It would be inappropriate to announce the gentleman's name because there is a possibility that he mav not accept although our indications were~in conversations with him yesterday,that he was quite enthusiastic about the ~1R. NEARY: Hr. Taylor? ~ffi.. DOODY: That name strikes a bell.

He appeared to be quite interested in the job and although he is involved in a negotiation process no"tv he wanted t\venty-four hours to see if he could clear his calendar and see hmv quickly he could get here and he "tvill let 6408

}tay 6, 1977 Taoe No . 2290 MR. DOODY: us know t oday being part of the twenty - four hours. With respect to r.vhether or not the people 'Hill g o back to t.vork \·lhile the mediation process proceeds., the ans\-Ter to that unfortunately , Xr . Speaker , is no and this is r.·lhy· gove r nme n t tvas so reluctant to get involved in the mediation. l<le feel that it could very H'ell be an unproductive exercise since the !'.lediation - ~1R. LUSH: ~ fR . DOODY: It is not binding . It is not binding on eithe r side and the strike will continue. The people will still be on the street .

The financial position will not imo r ove fo r tha~ but that is the course that the union t-Tanted to take . He rejected mediation at the beginning and opted for arbitra tion . The union refused 640 9 NM - 4

May 6, 1977, Tape 2291, Page 1 -- apb HR. DOODY: arbitration,so in an attempt to get the strike settled we thought that this was the only opening that there was and when it was presented to us we grabbed at it. HR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Nr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. gentleman for Windsor - Buchans. HR. FLIGHT: To the han. minister. When the terms of reference were being drawn up, Mr.

Speaker - now it was already indicated to us here yesterday in answer to the same type of question that one of the terms of reference was that the gentleman, the mediator, ~.;auld travel, possibly outside the Province, to make comparisons of facilities and standards, and you have already indicated that the strikers would not go back to work while mediation was in progress - would not this type of terms of reference have the effect of prolonging the strike and is that type of terms of reference necessary?

Would the minister explain to us why that particular term of reference was necessary when in itself it will have the effect of prolonging that strike? HR. SPEAKER: The hon.the Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: Any mediation process or arbitration process for a strike such as that at Waterford would have to have some standard or norm for comparison purposes.

The mediator or arbitrator, whichever of the two course were proceeded with, would of necessity have to compare conditions in other like institutions before he could decide whether or not the people at ~vaterford were indeed justified in their demands, their claims. Since there is no comparable institute in Newfoundland, it follows then we would have to look at these institutions which are in other Provinces. 6410

--· May 6, 1977, Tape 2291, Page 2 -- ab HR. DOODY: This will take some timetthere is no question about it, and the strike will continue while this goes on. This was pointed out very clearly to the union negotiators at the time as one of the reasons \vhy we felt that the mediation process Has not necessary.

It was even suggested to them that perhaps they would consider going back to work while the process was ongoing, and if indeed they rejected the mediators proposals then they could exercise the strike weapon again and go back on the picket lines, but they opted to stay on the picket lines until the mediator reported. In order to get a meaningful report, as I say, it is going to be necessary to compare the conditions in other institutions. It is unfortunate. If it could be done in two days it would be fine. If it can be done in two weeks it would be fine.

The more quickly it can be don~ the better, obviously, but it is going to take some time. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lapoile follmved by the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question if for the hon. the Premier, Sir. With industries moving out of Quebec, or alleged to be moving out of Quebec, would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House if there have been any enquiries to this Province in connection with industries that want to relocate and move out of the Province of Quebec? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER ~100RES: We have not gone soliciting that sort of move, Mr. Speaker, because I think Quebec's situation is far too serious to fool around with that sort of thing. But we have been contacted by some companies, yes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. - 6411.

May 6, 1977, Tape 2291, Page 3 -- apb NR. SPEAKER: r1R. NEARY: A supplementary. Hould the Premier be in a position to identify these companies, or is it private and confidential information? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER !100RES: No.I think, Mr. Speaker, that it would be very unfair to mention the names of the companies because they may or may not have made decisions as yet. and they may have to live in Quebec or they may, in fact, be moving.

I think it would be, not only a breach of confidence, but I think it would be wrong in just about every respect to do it until - it is private business between those companies if we just happen to have them contact us to advise us. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Sir.

Hould the I-ion. the Premier indicate if the government, the alli~inistration have set up any kind of a fact-finding committee, or a special committee to study the Quebec situation in the event that two or three years from now the Province of Quebec votes to opt out of Confederation and what the impact will be on this Province, and how we can cope with the situation at that time, if it should arise? I1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PRE!UER HOORES: Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that every Province in Canada,collectively and individually,are doing everything possible to try to keep Quebec in Canada.

At the same time, of course, part of the study that will come out of any of these sort of programmes, or planning, or negotiations, or discussions or what ever they happen to be, anything that came out of those would obviously lead to the information like the hon. member is talking about. 6412

May 6, 1977, Tape 2291, Page 4 -- apb PREHIER ~,100RES: Unfortunately, Sir, I would say there is a great deal of work being done in that regard in every Province in Canada, as I say, collectively and individually. I think the object 6413

Hay 6, 1977. Tape 2292 PJ{ - 1 PP-EIUER i'IOOEES : of even that exercise is to do everything possible to l::.eep Quebec in Canada. HR. SPEAKER: The·hon. member for Conception Bay South. HR. J. NOLAN: Nm.;, ~fr. Speaker, a question for the }finister of iiunicipal Affairs and Housing. In view of the fact that the night before last the residents of St.

Thomas voted that they t.ranted to have their mm council v1ithin their ovm community, in view of the fact that the people of Kilbride have indicated the same thing and to the best of my knmvledge the people of Hogan's Pond are looking at the same situation, can the minister noH shov us as to whether he Hill give ministerial approval to honour the ·Hishes duely recorded in the communities of the people concerned or will he refuse their request? ~ffi.. SPEAKER: The han. ~inister. HR. J. DINN: llr. Speaker, first of all, t.rith respect to Kilbride~ I have talked to the committee and I will be talking to the~ again.

They are not adamant about incorporation on their mm. Their circulated 'Petition \vas tvith respect to >·lhether they \·JOuld get their mm incortJoration or become part of an expanded city. MR. NOLAN: Correct. JIIR. DINN: Tt1ey had no objection, or the committee did not;to becoming part of, say, a regio:1al government. So vle are still discussing that. Hith respect to St. Thomas and Hogan's Pond, I discussed with the committee but I have not heard from the people of Hogan's Pond. ~ m.. DOODY: Did you get any reference from Ottawa? )'Jl. ROBERTS: Oh, their council speaks for them. aR..

DOODY: Ottawa will be in touch. }fR. DINN: So I Hould like to hear from the people of Hogan's Pond. And \•lith respect to St. Thomas, there will be ongoing discussions with the committees from St. Thomas and St. Phillips. :till.. SPEAKER: The han. member fro~ Bellevue. 6414

iiay 6, 1977. Tape 2292 RH - 2 1·.!:LZ. CALLl-\.?J: l·Ir. Speaker, my question is for the Uinister of Rural Development. /\bout tHo weeks ago I asked the minister if he Hould give me some figures'lor give the House some figures showing the number of repossessions by the Rural Development Authority for last year and hm; they compared Hith this year. I -.;-.onder could the rri.nis ter tell me \vhat time I may expect to get these figures. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. }\1' .. LUNDRIG&'1: Could the member tell me the ansv;er I gave him? ~.T..

FLIGHT: Yes, the answer was that you ~.rould produce them - A supplementary, ~-~r. Speaker. SPEAKER: A supplementary. FLIGHT: - you would produce them. ·m u ...• LU~mRIGAl:~: \fuen? ~~. CALL/Cl : ~fr. Speaker, the han. minister said in ans\.rer to a.."lother rruestion a couple of days ago that he Hould Lave them in a couple of days. Can the minister indicate when he Hill have these fi~ures? :~.r. Speaker, I told the member once that I would have them \vhen the estiMates are deb a ted Hhich should l1appen next wee~, th~ \veek after. :m. FLIGHT: \Tny, 'ioThy does it take so long? ! 'R. C.ALL.fu~ .

A SU?plementary, Yr. Speaker. HR. SPE.'.KEE: A supplementary. ~ ·ffi.. C.A..LLAl'l : ~Ir. Speaker, perhaps this May not be supplementary, but it is nn the same topic, it concerns rural developMent. Hould the minister indicate Hhether or not he thinks that the reason that the Hepartment of Rural Development is working so ineffectively is because it is very, very similar to a cro~..m corporation and most crovm corporations are noted for their ineffiencies? ~ffi.. SPEAKER: Order please~ Before the hon gentleman replies~ apart from the reasons suggested by the hon.member himself for its being 6415

Hay 6,1977 Tape 2292 RH-3 MR. SP'EAKE'R: out of order, it was also argumentative. Hon.minister. r-fR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Nr. Speaker. ~~r. Speaker, I agree with the han. member that we need more authority in Rural Development. The minister needs more authority and we have a bill before the House right norN' indicating exactlv that and he should get together 'tvith his hon. Leader of the Opposition, who indicates that there is too muc~ autonomy, authority and efficiency in decision making in the department.

So if they can get on the one wave length perhaps He will get a little direction as to how they are going to handle the bill which is before the Rouse at the moment. t-!R. SPEAKER: ?viR. ROBERTS : Hon. Leader of the Opposition. You cannot have a sunplementary to an out of order question and an out of order ansHer! A a.uestion for the "'finister of Health, ?v~r. Speaker . .&~ HOi.-.! .HEHBER: Hm.; can you ans~Ver it 't-lithout getting into debate? HR. ROBERTS: Hell only the Minister of Rural Development could answer an out of order question because his answers are out of order any-:.;ay. Hr.

Speaker, a question for the Hinister of Health. Could he tell us,please,the situation ~.;ith respect to Flowers Cove and the proposals for the Public Health Center there? I have asked him during the estimates debate and he \vas not able to answer in the sense that }•e did not have enough time to deal with it. But are we going to go ahead and get some "tvork done at Flm-rers Cove this year? \·le were told last year by the minister that Flowers Cove was number t\vO on the priority list Hith Trepassey being number one. Trepassey has had the new facility provided, there is money in the estimates this year.

Can "'e have an assurance that the start ,.;ill be made at Flm.;ers Cove this year? 6416

May 6, 1977 Tape 2293 JM - 1 MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han. member asked a question during the debate on the estimates but he was not in the House. He got up and asked a question and took off somewhere. Exactly what the position is I am not sure 9 but I will get the information for the han. member. But I know that some things will be done at Flower's Cove this year _ MR. ROBERTS: Well, I did not get the answer in my notes either~or in the estimates either. MR. COLLINS: - in terms of a new doctor's residence,which is one of the top priorities. We are dealing with the IGA.

The planning is just about completed there,I believe~for the facilit~ but we are in discussions with the IGA who after all operate that particular station. MR. ROBERTS: They are willing to operate it but is the han. minister going to build it? . MR. COLLINS: I am sure the IGA areland they will do a good job I am • pretty sure as well. But I will get the information for the hon. member. MR. 'Rf'"BERTS: What they need is the money, ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve ·itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY : MR. CHAI&'!AN: Order,please~ 501(01). The hon.

Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Chairman, just to finish a few points last night put forward by the member for Terra Nova, he asked about the teacher's negotiations - that is the NTA,I assume? That has been signed between the NTA and within the past week or two so that is a signed document now. And he also brought up the point of notice of negotiations, the han. member for Terra Nova brought up about the fact whether there was any lee time in negotiations by law.

Not more than sixty and not less than thirty days notice must be given by one side or the other~ either labour or management,in order to initiate discussions on the 6417

May 6, 1977 Tape 2293 MR. ROUSSEAU: new collective agreement. So it cannot be more than sixty days or it cannot be less than thirty days~and normally if there are any problems the union or management will write the department and we certainly will look into it. Last night, and I do not want to take up the time of the committee but I think it is important and I am prepared to table these, last night I referred to some correspondence we have had with Mr.Cullen in Ottawa in respect to unemployment insurance and the CNTP programme.

I do not know whether bon. members want me to read in the province's position on unemployment that was forwarded but I am prepared to table it. I do not right now have Mr.

Cullen's reply but it will be up sometime in the next hour or so and I am prepared to . table that, too.Basically,if I may,just the four main points of this Province in respect to the new unemployment regulations JM- 2 were these: Number one,that they retain the present benefit qualification period of eight weeks in insurable employment; Two, provi~e for flexibility in defining the fishing season where the normal season is affected by ice or adverse weather; Three, improve the present inequitable provisions which prohibit wives who work as regular crew members on vessels operated by their husband3from availing of unemployment insurance benefits,and four, amend the provisions dealing with weekly income averaging for fishermen by removing or raising the $200 weekly ceiling because of course with the short period the amounts may fluctuate.

That letter was dated 1977-03-01 (March 1, 1977) but I do have a reply and it is on the way and I will table that. That purely is our position on unemployment insurance. I have another letter here to Hr. Cullen dated March 16th and Hr. Cullen's reply of April 22nd in which we raise a number of points,some of which were included in the comments I made last night in respect to the CNTP prpgramme. The fact that the training days had been decreased from 718,000 in 1975-76 to approximately 590,000 this year, we raised that point last night 6418

May 6, 1977 Tape 2293 JM - 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: and the letter is here. And also the point about the DMI - UIC programme where we suggested last night that people on unemployment insurance went to training school, were paid their unemployment and were topped up with Federal .funds. They have recently,in the reply here Mr. Cullen suggests · and it is indeed fact,that he ~ill be forwarding about $140,000 extra this year to clue up that programme by June 30th. We had boped it was a pilot project, N"e ·had hoped it would continue.,but apparently the Federal Government. ··is not in a position to do so. HR.

LUSH: or just for - MR. ROUSS.EAU: On that pilot proje~t. was it just for the Province It was 6419

Hay 6, 1977 Tape 2294 LB - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: just for this province, but 1ve understood that if it 1-1as successful that it possibly could be implemented across Canada, but apparently the Federal Government thought not and probably they have more important functions they find for the funds. I also of course make reference - it is a three page letter here and I 'tvill table thc:_ t, and I will also table Hr. Cullen's reply. I only have one copy of these. Maybe the officers of the House could provide copies. A couple of points by the v7ay on the, just if I may, points from the hon. member for LaPoile last night.

I \vas very interested in his connnents on r,1orkers as shareholders - I am trying to remember last night - I mentioned the Hest Germany one , >·7hich is the one I think he Has referring to. It is a very interesting situation. Of course, it is not a govern~ent prerogative to order shareholders to ~ecome - or order companies to have members as shareholders, but I think there is no doubt about the question. These were points that Here raised by the hon. member for LaPoile last nieht. It certainly is somethin~ that does make industry operate on a much more smooth basis. There is a reluctance to strike.

There is a greater productivity because the workers themselves have some stake in the v!hole operation. It is certainly a point that I '!-JOuld assume at some point in the future -maybe not in our lifetimes, maybe in our lifetimes - that the idea may spread more to North America, it is in selected places nmv in certain areas, and also to Canada and hopefully to Newfoundland. It has been successful, I think, where it has been, especially in ~\Test Germany and some day - MR. NEARY: I do not think there is one company in Newfoundland involved in the profit sharing idea.

I cannot think of one company in New-foundland. HR. ROUSSEAU: No. But I think there are ccmpanies in Ne1vfoundland - I think one example, and I should spell them out - I think one of the biggest problems I had in 1973-74 when I was Minister of Labour was ERCO. I think it is safe to say from all indications that we have that ERCO has turned itself around into one of the better labour relations situations in the province. I am very pleased with that. A number of companies of 6420

M:w r.. 19 77 ' Tape 2294 LB-2. ;1R.ROUSSEAU: course have good labour relations. A "i:Umber of companies do not have good labour relations. The hon. member brought up another point maybe _iu?t a couple of comments on thP tough talking and laying the law dm-m. Of course' what goes on behind closPcl doors,whether ~vith union or v7ith management,as the han. member for 1aPoile knovrs \vho I th:.nk acted as minister of labour for years~ is. a lot different than what might be said publicly. Certainly you do not want to alienate the situation.

But what has to be said in fact to either a union or to management,which is based on our advice and our feelings 1 is certainly said behind closed doors. But I do not think it is a place to vrash your linen outside in the news media. So that is done Hhan it has to be done to both sides,and I think these pretty 1vell answer the comments made last night and any other members \vho have any other comments we will certainl try and answer those too. }ffi.. LUSH: Hr. Chairman, I just ;.;ant to raise a few comments as a result of the minister's comments.

First of all,I mentioned last evening \vhen talking to this I talked about the obligation of unions to educate people with respect to collective bargaining. I ::-.:cant to mention the role of the N.T.A. and its bargaining. The N.T.A. is, I do not knm-1 whether it is, certainly among the most recent bargaining units to have achieved collective bargaining.

I think in the particular union in the last negotiations with government that they certainly show~d up as an example as to the kind of ~oYk th~t wh~n He are bargaining for salary increases or wage increases and \vorking conditions and the kind of communication that should go on. I woulc~ venture to say that if the N. T .A. had not been so effective that this could have been a very rough situation. I would further say that it would have been very difficult to avoid the strike situation. But the N.T.A. was communicating with its teachers all the time, by \vay of communiques and letters and this 6421.

>1av 6, 1977 Tape 2294 LB - 3 NR . LuSH: sort of thing, informing the organi~ation, the teachers throughout the Province, t·lhat t-ras going on, calling special mee·tings to let t hem knoH a~ain t.lhat and how the negotiations t·7ere going keePing the membership completely informed . I believe this is the sort of thin g that unions have to do is to keep t heir people informed durinr- the process of negotiations t.lith those thin?.s that they can tell their people . I do believe that. And I think it ~as iust a second time, really, for the N.T .A. , collective bargaining, the second occasion .

I believe that the y shot.led up as a good example of tvhat should he done durinp, the collective bar£.ain ing nroces s . But there are some ouestions I Hanted to ask the minister . I nentioned last night - and t his, I am certainly a bi t academic on this because I do have to read r..rbat is said on it - and I remembered to~hile reading the Royal Cottmlission on ;.rork stoppages 6422

:fay 6, 1977 Tape No. 2295 ~- 1 ~·IR. LUSH: they mentioned there that in several instances that many of the ivorkers,and some of the union people,really did not knmv in certa~n situations Hhether the strike -v1as legal or illegal. They did not know. L~d some of them, it ivould appear from the commission, that some of them innocently v1ent on a strike, some of the workers in Darticular, thinking that it ~vas a legal strike when in essence it was an illegal strike.

Nm-1 the commission recommended - I just for~et exactly - but they recommended an officer or a one man situation to go around the Province and look into strikes and determine whether they were legal or illegal; Then of course if they r,1ere illegal to take the apTJrol)riate action, action that is provided in the le~islation. Now I am ~.;ronde ring ~vhe ther or not in any of the bills, the two bills that the ministe~ contemplates putting before the Roue, whether there is something of this nature, 'lvhether it ~v-ould be something in the Labour Standards Board or 'lvhether there is one man to go around.

All right, that is one question. The other one, I am a little bit mystified nm'l vlith the ~rinimmn T,Tage Board. In the Labour Standards Bill, I think it ivas , there was some reference there to the fact that the Labour Standards Board would be looking into the minimum wage situation.

AP..d then I recall reading another clause, and I do not know 1vhether that ~·ms the Labour Standards or the other one, but I remember reading that the minimum ,,,age - and I am just thinldng now out loud, it 1v-as ny i.rm:ression that the Labour Standards Board would be given the assignment of looking into r;-rages in the Province or working conditions. ~>'IR. ROUSSEAU: The idea is to have the Labour Standards Board be all encompassing, more so than the Minimum Wage Board. 6423

~!ay n' 1977 ~. LUSH: all right?

Tape 0/o, 2295 l'r·I - 2 \.Jell then you can deal 'N'ith that question fully, So there is some misunderstanding about, let us say, whc.t is the role of the ::rini."'Uum Hage 3oard nmv as o-pnosed to the Labour Relations Board and are they assuming that job and lvhen the bill is -passed ~vhether the ~· ~inilnum ~}age Board will disappear, I 'limn ted to ask a question about the VIC but the new UIC bill, the minister said that he was tabling some information with respect to the government's stand on tl1is and the one question - if it is included in the letter that he has tabled, fine - but the question that I wanted to ask \vas whether or not the minster has made any efforts to find out exactly hm., this new pronosed bill \•rill effect p'eonle in NeHfoundland.

For exarnple,increasing the qualifying ueriod from eight 1..reeks to ten T,;eeks ~ Before >ve can condemn that situation outrightly certainly there is certain information He must knovr. For exam"l)le,just as a uoint in que!'tion? hmv "!'lany peoole presently rf'ceiving FIC uould disqualify under the new one, the ten vleek -period? In other T,rords,how many neole are there in ~ewfoundland who find it difficult to get work for ten weeks? So I am just 1vondering whether the ninister got that kind of information, these kinds of statistics, that will tell us just hm..r we are affected by this new proposal. }ffi.

CHAIRMAN: The han, member for LaPoile. ~"R. ~EARY: ~r. Chairman, I am hoping we can get into an itam by item analysis of the estimates, Sir, but before we do there are one or ~.,o more matters that I Hould like to raise while we are on the minister's salary. One has to do, Sir, with the situation in t~e Province today concerning job opportunities for our skilled peo-ple, for our tradesmen. One time, ~r. Chairman, in Newfoundland,following the Depression years, people had to emigrate tC' Ne'li7 York and to Boston 6424

~-~y 6, 1977 Tape ~o . 2295 ~'ffi. . NEARY: to find j ohs. and as a result of that there •.vas a nucleus of steeb10rker s built uo in Ne\>7 York City. and you ~-rill find quite a feH Net>Tfoundlan ders dmm aroun d Boston , the t.Jatertown area and Boston, Everett and these olaces . Then the situation changed after Confederation , with Nevfound1anders looking towards Ontario for the job opportunities, And now today the situation has chaflged again . 6425

"ay 6,1S!77 Tape no. 2296 Pap,e 1 - ws Hr. Neary. ~Je·wfoundlanders are looking tmvards Alberta for the job opportunities. The skiHed trade!Tl .en cannot fincl e:r!1plo;ment in this Province. fnd as I s~ic" yesterday, Sir, the tragic part of the unemployment sjtuation in Hewfounc11and is that fifty per cent of the une!:!ployed are young peorle betFeen the a~e of seventeen and t'·!enty-five.

The young boys and girls in the falleries today may be interested in hearing that the big problel!' in Ne~:vfoundland today, as far as unemployr.:ent is concerned, is the fact that fifty rer cent of the unemployed are betr.reen the age of seventeen and tr,ienty-five years. And it l.rill not be too long t<7hen the group of young people in the f:8.llery today r,rill be in th<>t age bracket, seventeen to t"renty-five. And I hone that their teachers, and their parents and the children themselves '-·rill look a fe'" years ahead. to see just ~,~hat they are •!Oing to do Hhen they do graduate from high school.

Hhat 1vill they c1o? Hill thev go on to vocational schools? T.-TiJ.l they go on to the College of Trades? T!iJ.l they ~o on to universities? !To c:loubt quite a fe~' of theM wi_ll Hant to further - their educt~.tion. We_ll, if they co, r~r. r.hairman, I ~·7ould SUf~est that they take a good hard look at the l::ind of training t'!1at they ~1ant to get, the kind of training thC~. t 't·7ill get them a job, vrO.l ?et the!!' . employment.

Because I have been putting this point of vie,.r fonvard, Sir, in this l{ouse nm·r , and outside of the House, for the last four or five years, and I can see smre changes being brought about. It is a very slo''' process, but soTl'ehm·' or other, Sir, the peorle in authorit:' cannot get it throup.h their thick situll yet, that a lot of the traininr- progra!T1I11es that ~,·e are runnin!': are obsolete, that v7e are turn in~ out too many of this, too J'T!any of that. We are piling up electricians, 1·7e are. piJ.ing up r,7e.lders, ancl there are no jobs, !'rr. Chairman • ~~- . LT.TSti: .A~d rlttmbers. ~~.

NE.A~Y: A.nd -plul'lbers. And there are no jobs. lmc:l pipefitters. .And there are just no jobs for these kind of trades. He e.re stockpiling the!!l,

whereas in more sophisticated types of 't·7ork there is a demand. So the young people should exanine the situation very carefully before they c1ecice the career upon 'tvhich they wish to embark before 6426

Pay 6, 1977 Tape no. 2296 Page 2 - :r.:s the pick their vocation in Ufe to nake sure that it is a ~·rise ciecis:i.on, that they are just not going to be st8.mpedeo or herded into university, because some academic said "Well, 1· f , you _get a pi.ece of paper from the Fniyersity, you got her made~~ T·}hen in actual fact, as I sai0. yesterday, He have in Canada, ~·re have 3.A. 1 S stoc~piled. We have enou~h B.A.'s to last us for the next ten years if they never graduated another one. We have enough for the next ten years!

And He have enough 7-f,A.'s so ~,re are told by the staticians; r,re are tole by the experts - we haYe enough H .A.'s for the next fifteen years. .AJld '!;7e have a backlof of Ph.P's. They are piled up. 7:'~. T'C't'SSEAU: Do you knoF Hhat Ph.~ neans? They are piled higher and c1eeper. 'o/. NEAPY: Piled hi~h - HJ:>. P.f'IFSSE;\U: Pi1ec1 higher 2-nd cl.eeper. PiJ eC. higher and cl.eeper. T1,.at is rifht. Piled higher anc ceeper. That is ri~ht, Sir. So r.ve have a surnJ us.

So c_o not fall into the trap of having so!T'ebody talk you into something because they want to keep the enrollment up at the university, or they want to 1~eep the enrt:-ll!'1ent up in this institution or that institution .<md you have the lob hying go in;? on - to ~o in to thi. s tyre of training or that type of training. Be realistic and get invoJ_,eo in the type of traininp.: that ~d.ll al!"'ost assure you of a bright future,and not be put on the shelf, not become cisillusionec ~vith our systeT'1 ., and with the ec1ucational systei"l.

Once you graduate and you go out in the world,work hard and get a certificate,e;et a training and ?:O out in the ~vorld, and then only to find that you cannot find a job .,,7hereas right around you there are all kinds of job opportunities that nine chances out of ten ~·7e haYe to import people from the mainland to fill. / 6427

"ay 6 , 1977 Tape no . 2296 Pafe 3 - r.s "r . Ne~.ry . I b.ad a clipnin~ on wy desk here . I cannot find it ~ifht nov. ~ut it is ~e re so,.,.et·1here. I ha0 a cli pping yesterrlay, I ·.ras goi.n?. to hrinp. it to the mjnjster ' s attention . Iron Ore r.ompanv of Cana~a advertisinr over in Nova Scotia for tra~esmen, for electricians, for Helders, for mechani cs . '~ .. RCrSSEAr: I can only say to you that they are available in ~!etdoun~lc>.nd.

"R . m:A?Y : They are available in Nevfoundlc .nd . '!'hat is a~actly t he poin t I ?F. ~aking . ~'!' . • P('lYSSE.AX: If ICC happens to hire t!lel:l from outside, t hey are ~oing to be in for bir trouole . 'fR. . NEi\!'Y : r.Tell they are , Sir . They have an ad - I am sure I fOt it here so~ewhere if I eRn only - ~-rp • porSSEAr : I bel i.eve you . I h.el ieve you . ~ . NEAPY: I will have it fo r the minister shortlv . I ~ad it her e yesterday , v.rhatever I did Hith i t. Iron Ore C'o!l'panv of l2U2C8 acvertiS:i. n~ in !"'ainland Uef·iSpaperS for tra~eSTl'en Phen 6428

May 6, 1977 Tape 2297 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: ~.,e have record unemployment in this Province, when we have tradesmen who are unemployed. I do not know if our people will not go to work in Labrador City or '.;hat the problem is. I am sure the pay is pretty good. Maybe the attitudes again have to be changed. But I asked the minister a question some time ago about IOC recruiting skilled workers and tradesmen in Europe and II the minister wrote me back and said. There is nothing in writing pertaining to the importation of European workers by the Iron Company of Canada, and there was no exchange of correspondence.

However,officials of both departments have been in close consultation with each other on this matter!' Well my advice to the minister in future is to put it in '\vriting. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is now in writing. MR. NEARY: Well I am glad to hear it is now in writing, Sir. Put the objections in writing and then they cannot '~easel out of it. And, Mr. Chairman, talking about the out-migration, I think somebody mentioned, I believe the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) was talking about the number of people leaving this Province.

And as I mentioned a few moment ago, they are now looking to Alberta for employment,and I do not know if our people are just going out there on a temporary basis, that they will go out and work and then come back home in the Wintertime,or if they are moving their families out there. Perhaps the minister could get some statistics from Canada Manpower.

But the House may be interested in knowing the answer to a question, Question No. 112~that I put on the Order Paper back in February, I asked the minister, and I thank the minister for the answer, what is the estimated out-migration of Newfoundlanders to other provinces of Canada during the calendar year 1976? Answer: The following are preliminary figures from population estimates and the projection division)- statistics Canda,and on subject to change- 1975-1976, I~igration, that is 'i', Immigration, plus 995. Emigration 'e', minus 2,200. Net interprovincial 800. So the net migration was 6429

May & , 1977 Tape 2297 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: a minus 400. So in actual fact when people had moved into the Province, people had moved out of the Province~the next result of that at the end of the year was that Newfoundland was minus 400. That may be a very significant figure, because my understanding was that it was much heavier than that, much greater. MR. ROUSSEAU: We had a zero net a couple of years ago. MR. NEARY: Yes ,I remember. I checked with somebody in Statistics Canada for the year before, and I believe we had a plus, by the way, it was not a minus, it was a plus. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I think it was zero then,followed by the other one, I do not know. MR. NEARY: But 1975-1976 there was only a loss of 400 people from this Province. MR. ROUSSEAU: These would be by your province of residence as of 31st. of December. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. ROUSSEAU: I would assume those figures would be based on your province of residence as of the 31st. December probably. MR. NEARY: Well that is probably true. The figures indicate that between June 1, 1975 and May 31, 1976 the Province had a net loss of 400 persons.

This figure is not exact since emigration and interprovincial have to be estimated. In other words~there are no statistics, · It would be hard to keep statistics on that sort of thing. So that is very interesting, Sir, that so far in that particular year we lost 400 people, which would indicate to me that the workers are leaving this Province and leaving their familes behind.

Because they cannot find employment in Newfoundland they are forced to go to other provinces, the Great Lakes, Alberta, the Tar Sands, Ontario, trawlers and so forth in Nova Scotia, ~o Newfoundlanders are just leaving · and coming back again~I presume they are going back and forth, they come back on vacation, they come back when they get their holidays in the Wintertime, Christmas and so forth-~ and I would like for the minister to tell us if that is so or if the minister 6430

Hay 6, 1977 Tape 2297 Pk - 3 Mr. Nearv: thinks that families are pulling up roots. And I think that would be a tragedy, Sir, if that was happening, 6431.

Tape No. 2298 NM- 1 MR. • NEA..'R.Y : because ue have to keep our tradesmen, our skilled men, ~ve have to keep our good people in this Province, v7e need these people to help us dev~lop the Provi~ce,_ especially the fishing industry. I knovr, ~1r. Chairman, I did a little research some time ago on the number of neople unemployed in my hon. friend's district. Everybody looks upon Labrador West as being a prosperous area. I do not re~ember the figures but they were quite high, I 1:.ras staggered at the - ~. ROUSSFAU: 1,000 or 1,200.

MR. ~!EARY: Yes, over 1,200 people unemnloyed in Labrador Hest, right where you have this Iron Ore Company of r.anada advertising on the Mainland for tradesmen, \Vhy do they not run their run their o~m apprenticeship nro3r(.llllme and train the young people right there in Labrador City and Habush? I know they have a pretty good apprenticeship programme. I knor,, vrhat the ::finister is going to say. Oh yes, they have a progra1ll!!le.

Hell it is not enou~h as far as I am concerned, It should be bigger and better than it is and thev should not have to bring one worker in from outside of this Province to ~vork in Labrador City, esnecially go to Eurone recruitin~. Another example, Sir, is my OVTn district of LaPoile~ r,vhich is a fairly prosperous area of this Province as han. gentleMen know, But in the ~ranpower Office in Port aux Basques there are 1,208, one thousand two hundred and eight men and ~vomen registered for employment. And a lot of these, (;fr.

Chairman, are in the category that I mentioned, young people between the ages of seventeen and twenty-five t-rho canrot find employment in that particular area. Nmv this \vould inc:!icate to me, Hr. Chairman, that both levels of government are going to have to e~bark upon more 6432

~fay 6' 1977 Tape No. 2298 J-fJL NEARY: upgrading program."lles, more training prograi!Ut\es and more re-training progranmes for the young people in these areas that I am speaking about,and I do not think the minister Hill disagree with that. That either has to be done hy the Province or Canad?- !·fanoower. Canada l'fan-power has the machinery, the resources to do it, and they should be doing more of this on a local level, especially to zero in on the young peoole. And as I said yesterday,the Provi~ce should have counsellors to go out around this Province.

That is why I was disappointed that the ~inister of Industrial Development took a negative attitude to my suggestion yesterday about getting the experience, getting the on the job training so that young people can get permanent employment, because the big problem they have is 'vhen they go to look for a job they say, "You do not have the experience." Well how do they get the experience if they do not get a job?

And so what I am saying is the Government of Canada, Canada ~!anpower, the Provincial Government should \<TOrk out a scheme ~vhereby employers would be subsidized tr give young people the initial experience they need to find employed. Now that programme is already in place,as the minister indicated,to a cetain degree, but it is not used enough to my liking. And the minister should set up - it would be very Horthwhile, this is a positive idea - counsellors in the minister's department to go around this Province and indoctrinate emoloyers into taking advantage of this programme.

Because right now, Sir, I am afraid that from a lot of emoloyers you get a negative reaction because of the red tape that is involved. Because they are afraid of it, they are afraid that Canada Hanpmver might come in ar.d look at their books. that Canada Manpower will force them to become involved in all kinds of letter writing, filling out forms and this sort of thing. And so employers are discouraged to a certain degree, employers are some~vhat discouraged from getting in 6433

}1ay E, 19 77 Tape t O . 2298 )1M - 3 MR. NEARY: more and more into this programme. But I think the Provine~ should encourage employers around this Province to get in with b.oth feet and 2 et our young people on the job, because after all Canada ~!anpmver will pay sixty per cent of the cost. Maybe the provincial govenL~ent can throw in a fe~ dollars. I do not knm-1.

But certainly, Sir; it would be a worthwhile project for the minister to undertake, to have counsellors going around helping employers make Otlt the applications and by-pass the red tane and get cracking on this,because I checked on the number of ap?lications and it is not enough as far as I am concerned. There are not enough people involved in this Province in on the job training. The money is there, sixty per cent from the Government of Canada, and it is not being utilized to the maximum degree as far as I am concerned. Sot Mr.

Chairman, with these fe~v remarks I hope the minister, when the minister responds, that '-Te can get into an item by item analysis of the estimates. ~. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 6434

May 6, 1977 Tape 2299 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: Mr. Chairman, first of all · I will probably go to the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), I certainly agree with the very wise comments he made to pupils in the gallery 0 I think there is another side to the story too, you know, that educatio~ is not unnecessary, A few of us here have had to have the training necessary, I was a teacher and a school principal before I entered politics, and the training obviously as was the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) and the member for Humber Valley (Mr. W. House) and the member for Green Bay (Mr.

Peckford) and a few other members of the House - of course training is necessary. I do not look upon my degrees as superfluous, but I certainly know that within the bounds they are there · they certainly do not make you all-knowing. But I certainly would agree with the member in suggesting to the students in the gallery that the university is not always the only ans•.;er, that there are other honourable jobs in society besides sitting behind a desk, Every job is an honourable job as long as you approach it in the right way and do an honest day's work. A few of the points raised by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) - AN RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes,the job opportunities for skilled tradesmen ' now are difficult to come by and people are moving, but I think it is fair to say that they are moving temporarily. Newfoundland is Newfoundland to Newfoundlanders, and they will always come home if the jobs are here. Certainly the statistics _s.how that the majority of people unemployed and the problems we are having are with those in the age bracket of seventeen to twenty-five.

In speaking about the unemployment situation in my own district of Western Labrador, Labrador City and Wabush,where one is very surprised to find these numbers, that indeed the greater number of people unemployed of those numbers were people in the age bracket from seventeen to twenty-five. Now a few months ago I brought 6435

May 6, 1977 Tape 2299 PK - 2 Mr.

Rousseau: up a task force from Federal and Provincial Manpower in the hope to get involved with this industrial training programmelwhich is the other aspect of the institutional training programme we have with the Federal Government, the trade school, the College of Trades and so on, the institutional, but we have this year $2.25 million- you know, YTe might be able to fight and get a few dollars more- but $2.25 million is allocated for this sort of industrial training in the Province whereby employers can have people come to work in a job training opportunity, because we believe,as does the Federal Department of Manpower>that in order to have mobility,and we are not encouraging people to leave the Province, or leave their area in which they live,but we have to be realistic and if there are jobs in other areas we must give them some degree of skills in order to make them somewhat mobile.

And this certainly is a programme by which they could acquire some mobility. The hon. member - it ~vas very interesting, by the way, that he brought up some questions about apprentice~hip, and rightly so. And I have some figures here probably that may not .be asked in the details, so I will just give them now. We have a number of Manpower Training Apprenticeship Officers across the Province . AN HON. MEMBER: How many? MR. NEARY: We have six Manpower Training Officers in St.

John's and they cover the Avalon Peninsula 1 about 1,370 people involved in that, the Bonavista Peninsula about 60, and the Burin Peninsula about 70 people in which they are doing manpower training consultative work, There are two in Grand Falls, 370 from Gamba to Buchans including the Baie Verte Peninsula and Bay d'Espoir. We have three in Corner Brook,which includes 430 people that we are dealing with from Deer Lake West to Port aux Basques; and we have one in Labrador City who has ten people in Goose Bay, thirty in Churchill Falls and 650 in Labrador City and Wabush. And these are some numbers that 6436 •

- ~ May 6, 1977 Tape 2299 PK - 3 Mr. Rousseau: may be of interest to the hon. member. It is our intention in the Fall-by the way, we already have had funds approved for it; it is one contract that is going to go ahead,in case the hon. Leader of the Opposition is listening~ but we have called a conference on Manpower Training and Certification.

And it is this government's intention to begin to evolve a better programme of apprenticeship training and to make it very desirable for employers in this Province to participate in it because we think that some of the companies in this Province have not entered the spirit of apprenticeship t_rain_ing~ as. the hon. member for LaPoile suggested. So we are going to have a conference,as we did with Occupational Health and Safety last Fall,with Manpower Training and Certification in the Fall and that will look at consolidating ar.d changing and modifying the existing 6437

Vay 6, 1977 Ta11e no. 2300 Page 1 - ms Mr. P.ousseau. legislation on apprenticeship training, because if He have to tell people that it is their resronsibilitv and duty as corporate citizens ·of this Province to enter into the s11irit of the programme, then '-•7e are going to have to do that. He \o.'ould h0pe that it shoulc:'l. nnt have to be done, but apparently from the figures given they are certainly not near the number. Some of the larger companies in tl:e Province have very, very swall apprenticeship programmes.

And v:hen you are considerin~ sixty per cent of the cost of the salary being paid,up to seventy-five for handicapped people, then there can be very little excuse why more people are not taking advantage of the programme. I can assure the han. member for LaPoile (1.-fr. Neary)~ I can a.ssure the Iron Ore Company of Canada, and I can assure the people of this Province that if the Iron Ore rompany of Canada [!ires one man out side this Province where there is so!T'.ebody availnb le in this Province for the j oh, then I think - I do net think the Iron Ore Company of Canada v1ould clc it.

I can stand here and unequivocally say that I coubt very muc~ they \vould do it, because \ve hc.ve had a number of discussions, .:md I think they l·~nm.; the vieT.vS of this government. I \vould like, if I nay by tl:le Hay, to read a letter just to give an indication of this governTient's positiov. There Fas a contract called on t'!:'le Ho1yrooc1 generating station. It was won by a company called Collavino which I do not mind rr!entioning. It r,•rts a ne'" company tc the Province.

I i·Janted a local coi:'.pany, J:,ut obvi0usly ~"hen the engineering company looked at the specifications and evaluated the tender~ Collavino was the low tender. Collavino had registered in the Province. Besides getting a contract,Cabinet approYed that before the c0ntract vras let ~ t1~ere \·Jere certain conditions that Foulc'l bave to be met and attache(! to the contract. And these ~vere the conditions as a result of a tl'eeting that I had -vdth the principals of the 6438

:•ay 6, 1977 '!'ape no. 2300 Page 2 - ms Yr. P_ousseau. COT:'pany. ''I vish to confirm tl:":e understancling ~·"'hj ch. Pe reP.ched during a f'1.eetins in my office on the 10t1:1. Januar;r, 1?77 at r.7hich tir:-e you macl.e a firm coTir::dtt:!ent in respect to err.ployment and conc1itions of hirinf to be follmved 'f)y your co1"'.pany in carryin .~ out a contract at the Holyroocl ~enerating station. You made the follm.'inr- coll'~itll'ents as a prerequisite to the granting of the contract to your company.

Nunber one, ~vith the possible excertion of three tranagerial employees, that is the project l!lanager, the superintendent and the general superi.T'ltendent " - ~.;rhich is their senior nanaf"eM.ent.- "your company ~·rill hire all ~1e,cTfoundland labour.

Number t Ho, in the case of any subcontract for any part of the j o h, your coi"pany r,,j 11 make it a firm concl.i t ion upon the subcontractor th<".t only NeFfoundlanrl l<thour 1..r:i 11 be hjred. ~1urnber. thTee, vour cof'1pany agrees to recruit through the 7uildin~ and Construct:ion 'lrrtdes Council of Unions ; cond nuf'1ber four, there c~m be no exception to one and tv·o above excent hv ap.ree!"ent ~''ith the Builc'lin~ C'l.nd Construction Trades Council of l'nions and on the clear understanc~ing that local ~vor1-men are unavailc:~hle." That is our positiorc simply put.

Anc that position not only holds for that company, 1)ut as far as I am concernec'l, and as far as this ~overnment is concerned~that any company ~,>flo Hor.ks in this Province has a responsibility and a duty to hire , 1·7here availa 1;le, Ner,rfoundland la9our. CertajnJ.y it appears to he ave~.i lable noF on all fronts. ~ 'T.>. LFSE: 1;<7ould the han. minister permit a question? t''T'. ~.OF~SE>I1': Yes, sure. ~"F . • LPSF: I am just wondering what the situation is v'ith res-pect to federal projects. I knmv the hon. "Minister allu<lecl to that some time ago.

I am <Tuite concerned about thC1t \vith respect to the Terra Nova l'"!ational Park. You know, it is C1 very dicey situation. The ouestion I a~ asking is -vmether or not the winister h.as had any complaints ahont feceral projects, ..,-.nether they havf' done anything Hith re~pect to it, and if so to what extent? 6439

I''ay 6, 19 77 Tape no. 2300 Page 3 - rns }fn.. ROUSSEAU: Tl·e hon. member is •·10rried. So is the hon. minister here v7orried, because th:is same company, I th1.nk, is the lovT tender on the ~·Jetbush Ir..C.ustrial Pco.rlr, and ve cannot m2.ke the same demands ,,rith respect to fecleral-provinciA.l funds, because obviously the federal ~overnt1ent argues, and d.f.htfully so fraT'! their vieHpoin t, that the money tr>a t is g-oing in is Canad~. an money, not ~·~e>·Tfoundland rn.oney.

I remember Hben I Has !'finister of Forestry and Agriculture 1vren t.;re asked in our mapping: prop,ra!!liT'e and so on ,._.,hether ~ve could give ten per cent preference to local people and they said no. There was no questjon at all in the federal government's mind that this is Canadian !!'.Oney and it cannot be restricted. But ~ve ~.;rould hope that the sar1e coTTlpany which has this job in Holyrood from the provincial point of vieF and is no\>r going to Fork on a feC.eral-provincial _iob vd.l1 not be inconsistent vd.th this policv on a provincial basis.

But I \>rill tell you one person, and this government will not for?et it the next ti.!l'e it comes around. That is the only sort of th:i.n? you caD do. But thRt is the feeling of r-overni"ent. Xow a few things mentioned by the hon. member - I th;nk thett covers the points raised by the hon. member for LaPoiJ.e (Hr. ~!eary) - the hon. member for l:'erra Nova (?vfr. Lush). Of course, the NrA' s role in bargaining is o_t.dte recent, and I think quite a good role. There is <'. situation of course in it af· 6440

~' lay 6 , 19 77 Tape 2301 AH-1 1·11:":.. ROUSSEAU: Hell. I mentioned this morning t:HJ.t the contract had been signed, I think the hon. member understands that there is a situation in I..Jestem Labrador which Has excluded from the provincial bargaining in \vhich the local bargaining takes nlace because of course the school board up there are augmented by company funds. HH .• LUSH: What is the particular reason for that? It is probably decey. HR. ROUSSEAU: Yes,it is a dicey reason.

They made a request to me and I brought it to government and government considered it in this situation, a special set of circumstances because really the· schools up there are funded to a great deal by the company. Hmv about Churchill Falls? A:r;e they under the Labrador Hest or under the - ?:T .• '?DUSSEAU: :::-1o, they have their mm. That Has a ?rivate school board, but it is not now. It was in those days. Yes. they have played a role and I think it is an emerging situation.

I knm·J in the last year or t>vo since the lJTA Collective Bargaining Act came out there are certain anomilies in it and ~ve have been working wid· the NTA in respect to changing the act ,as you do rvi th every ner,; act , the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, any ne\v act that is brought into the legislature,but especially one as comprenhensive as

an act dealing with labour or some other aspects of government,that there are shake-out periods and certain changes have to be made. 'i'Je have been discussing that Hith the NTA. The han. member also asked;' When is a strike legal or illegal?" It is a very simple rule of thumb that where there is a collective agreement in effect that any strike that occurs bet;.;een the effective date and the termination date is illegal. !~ow that decision, if there is any question, is made by ti1e courts. Recently \ve had representation from the Labour Management Committee 6441.

Hay 6,1977 Tape 2301 AH-2 l1R. ROUSSEAU the provincial committee which is funded by the provincial government consisting of representatives of labour and management 3 in ,.1hich t~ey made some recommendations ~vhich government has accepted and vrill be reflected~ as I told the hon.member in some of our private conversations, that there are some changes no'tv to the Labour Relations Bill as it i·7as printed last year. One of the changes will be an enlarged role for the Labour Relations Board, a much enlarged role.

But one of the requests made was that the Labour Relations Board have the right to declare a strike illegal or legal and that was one thing that we did not accept. He think that that should?at this po~nt in time,remain with the courts. And the Labour Relations Board,although having broader powers in the neH act,will not be responsible to declare w·hether a strike is legal or illegal and accordingly that ;vill remain Hith the courts. As a rule of thumb,of co~rse,a strike that occures during the life of a collective agreement is an illegal strike.

The hn'!l. member also mentioned the ?~inimurn :,!age Board and Labour Standards Board,and maybe it is confusing novr but I am nmv referring to the ~Iinimum Hage Board because until the Labour Standard~Act is proclaimed it is still the Hinimum Hage :Soard. vlhat 'tvill in effect happen is that as soon as the act is proclaimed the Ninimum Hage Board will go out of existence and the Labour Standards Board uill immediately come into existence '\vhich is ,,·hy ·He have it budgeted for.

So probably my use of interchanging the use of ~linimurn Hage Board and the Labour Standards Board is different .They really are in pO't·rer to look into all aspect of wages and vTorking conditions and fringe benefits across the Province. And as I suggested last night) they are nmv in the proaess of preparing their revie\v of the minimum Hage across the Province and I ~vould anticipate by late Spring or early Summer that the advertisments will go in the paper and tl1.ey Hill have 6442

: ~ ay 6,1977 Tape 2301 ~1! -3 :ti',. t(Ql:SSEA'J : hearin gs right across the Province and make recommendations on the existing level of minimlll-n ~·7ages . The last point ,I think b rou ght up by the hon . ::1enber fo r Ter ra ijova was a point on Unemployment Insurance . He is 'tvOndering Hhat position> of course l,.;e should take, and I mean . 1ve should take as a 'frovince , not as an opposit i on party or as a governnent .

But I think that ~.;e - the original suggestion t.ras t~'lel ve \·7ee!<s and He could not agree tvi t !1 that, and \·7e cannot agree r eal l y t.rith ten :1eeks) and ~nly because , although it is a COr:l?t'O!!'.ise, );e~·;foundland stands to gain the ::1a:drm.:n under the ~,:ay it is . But for ten weeks! It is pretty difficult in sor:e instances to get eight Heeks employn;ent,especially in some of t~e seasonal situations and ofttimes \ you knot·! ,you are asked if the minister~ tvith the oeople Hark ing in the depa rtment, if they ~·1ould put t~em on another ~veek so that t~ey can get e:tou~h sta1nps .

So it is a stretch for eigh t ~·7eeks. That is ,,.,hy -;.;e car.not accept the ten t-Jee'k prer equisite . Tha t is a pr et t y long tice • Al t hougr a person ;.rho has been ~.;orking - we ~v ill qualify for all t!'le maxir.:tUm extended benefi ts uncier the nevJ act. ~·le just feel . t hat ei~~t w~eks 6443

May 6, 1977 Tape No, 2302 ~~. ROUSSEAU: for the fisherrnenlfor example, dePending on the ice or the season, would be difficult. He feel that 'lvives should be eligible for unemPloyment insurance, He feel that the S200 limit is not sufficient because it may be $1,000 1 I suppose~or $1,200 one week and maybe $200 the next week, because of the vagaries of the fishing industry. N-:!'1- 1 But I think that ~1r.

Cullen at least has reacted to his mm caucus and to the Opposition in the House of Co!!l1!lons and also to the various rePresentations across Canada and has attempted to modify it.and while it is not what we want it is certainly at least a step in the right direction. 'ffi.. NEARY: It could be \vorse. ~~-· ROUSSEAU: Yes, it could be worse. The ten weeks are not satisfactory. \..Je still maintain that it should be eight Heeks, that is as difficult as it can be.

It will have an effect in this Province undoubtedly, But the other counterbalance is the fact that the money saved is supposed to go into the Province 1 so I am certainly hopeful that it will, The only question we have there in ~ point \ve ~vould bring up to the federal government is this, that if tle money ~oes into the Province then the Provincial Government would like to have some input into what the priorities are as well, Because T,Je have do1m in HanpmverJyou kno~r.,.a number of nroiects that we think as a priority basis would be good if the money was available.

T,Je researched the projects that were involved in the Forestry, Tourism and Social Services nroject-and the Rural Development or the - the three of them anyway, tre three resource departments and we have a list dmm there of priorities which we think would be job creation projects and if the money was available we would make those available, lve have discussed them with the federal government and in the letter that I have tabled now,that is available, Mr. Cullen has indicated that he will certainly ~•elcome interchange between the provincial and federal goverP~ent because it becomes 6444

Hay 6, 1977 Tane No, 2302 :1R. ROUSSEAU: very difficult when things are done not according to a ?riority and the provincial government thinks one thing, and the federal government thinks another. So maybe in the months and the years to come we could have a better co-operation in that matter in respect to the federal-provincial ne~otiations on this term of make-'t·mrk projects. HR. LUSH: Another factor too I think with it is the extent to 't.rhich employers gauge their ~..rork around the qualifyin~ period. You know.! think that is something that you cannot prejudge. ~·R. ROUSSEAU: You cannot prejudge again.

Yes, there are ce:::tain difficulties., I would think, as Hr. Callen has now indicated to me, that Mr. Cullen could, sometime when the House closes, ~..rithin two or three weeks after the House closes I think~we will probably sit dmm and discuss it. And I have to say again I found him to be co-operative. You know I am going to fight- or the government are going to fight to the best they can for this ~rovince. Obviously he has his job to do too and I am not prepared at all to condemn him. I was disappointed that he could not have the meeting that we had here scheduled and that is referred to in the letter.

But the ne~v Director, hy the ~.,ray,of Hanpower for the Province, Jerry Everard,has been most co-ope:::ative with us and we are very pleased with the co-operation he has extended to this Province and ~..re feel a man ~vho really understands this Province,and hopefully the officials of the Provincial Department of 1--f.anl?m..rer and the Federal Denartment of ~·~anpower will continue that co-oneration,and if they do I can only see bright things ahead in respect to the area of ~~nnower. ~fR.

Lt.TSH: I do not \vant to nut . the minister on the spot, but ~..rith respect to the principle of the UIC, that is make it that we do see the qualifying periods for areas where the unemployment rate is highest - and I understand this is only a three year period . too 1 is it not? If this 6445

-"ay 6 , 1977 'I:' ape \o . 2.'3'12 ~ . LUSH : is the ne · proPosal ~.;rhat would be the govermnene' s official positi<:m on that? Do they think that is the method by which it should be done,or did they press that it probably be the permanent arrangement that urc benefits be extended, that qualifying period would vary accordi:n.g to the unemployment rate in a particular area? .r.r - 3 NR. ROUSSEAU: This is the point we are making.

At this point in time with as many unemployed people - we wish that we had zero unemployment,which is unrealistic~but ~vhen it comes down to a point sure~ ~ve will pay our ~vay that way in Canada; but right now ~vith so many people unemployed.,and because of the type of industry we have in this Province you cannot judge Ontario or Quebec or British Columbia or Alberta as you would judge this Province. And that is tvhere the problems come.

Nm-1 it is difficult for the Federal. }'f.:anpower people,of course,and UIC people to have 1500 different sets of rules for all across Canada,and we have been sort of lumped in with the Atlantic Provinces, ~vhich is generally the same but there are particular and specific differences. He are not nearly as industrialized as Nova Scotia. Prince Edward Island is mostly a tourism and agricultural area. So there are differences 6446 •

May 6, 1977 Tape 2303 Pk - 1 Mr. Rousseau: within the region. But I accept the fact that, you know, you cannot have too many sets of rules, but during a period of high unemployment which we have in this Province we think that then special consideration should be given to a given area, region or a province or a number of provinces. So I think that answers the questions put forward by the hon. members. MR. CHAIRNAN: The member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I take it we are still on the minister's head and the reason I rise now is because I am not quite sure what head to speak to with respect to the two points that I wish to raise. And one is the difficulty of getting jobs in this Province~or · being terminated with the Department of Transportation and Communications ~ and the other one is the difficulty of getting employment~period, because of the fact that you are not in a particular union.

And I do not know whether this would come under Labrador Standards - or the head of Labour Standards,or the heading Labour and Industrial Relations, but I will raise the two points now in the Committee stage on the minister's vote. Mr.

Chairman, a great number of my constituents, and I know other members of the House or the Committee have this problem, individuals are being laid off or their work is being terminated in the Depar~ent of Transportation and Communications, Som~ of these individuals have had long years of service with the Department of Transportation and Communications, and in some cases individuals who have been with that department for only one or two years are kept on

whereas people who have been with the department for,say, fifteen or sixteen or twenty years have been laid off. And I understand that the reason for it is because either The Employment (Notice of Termination Act) or the Collective Bargaining Act For The Public Service~this is the cause of it. Let me give the Committee an example, Mr. Chairman. An individual who went with the Department of Highways,say twenty 6447 •

Hay 6, 1977 Tape 2303 PK - 2 Mr.

RoHe: years ago, as a labourer or the equivalent of labour, and Hho has ~~orked himself up in the various stages and, say, has become a shop ste~·rard or a heavy equipment operator, has uorked himself up but has only been say - let us take the example of the heavy equipment operator - for, say, the last t1w years; and another individual vJho came ~-lith the Denartment of High~..rays - nov this individual I am talking about might have been with the Department of High~vays for t'\venty years, and has slo'\.;rly educated themself through experience or formal training and managed to become in a fairly high category, a foremen, a shop steward or a heavy equipment operator T.orith the department, but only for say the uast two years he has had that particular position: another individual comes into the department, or vJOrks, gains employment with the Department of Highways or Transportation and Cow~unications and has been, say, a heavy eauipment operator for the past five years.

NoH '\..:rhen the time comes for layoffs, apparently through the union agreement the individual v1ho has more seniorit y , and has Harked '"i th the deuartment for say tvrenty years but has only had this particular position of heavy equipment operator for two years ~ is laid off before the individual who has only been with the department for the past five years>say}but in that position as heavy equipment operator.

Now I do not know whether it is fair or not, I honestly do not know, you know, where you draw the fairness line there, but I have had a tremendous amount of complaints from my own constituents and I understand other members have had the same types of complaint that people who have had long years of service with the department;or have seniority in the sense of years of service~are being laid off before the individuals who have only been with the department for a short number of years.

And I was t-7ondering if the minister could relate to that particular problem, and if there is any way of rectifying that problem or if,in fact, that system is the fair.er system as compared to~say,keeping on the individuals who had long years of service, even though he might have had that particular 6448

\'ay 6, 1977 Tape no. 230~ category of \•:rork Pith the de~artnent for a ~hort nuT"ber of years. I do not knm·J if the minister is in listeninp. ciistance nor.·r, but I hope that I have made ~y point clear, and if the ~inister could relate to it. The other probleM., ~~r.

Chair~an, that I ~··oulcl ]_i_t.e to raise ~.;rith the rdnister - and I hope that he can re]_ate to it, address himself to it - is this vrhole business of incivicluals Hho are trying to get work in thjs Province , and this is partly a function of the fact that r.7e co have a very high une!'!'lpJ oyn-ent rate at the present ti!"'e, but there are !"lan" individuals ,,1ho are qualifiec! carpenters, qualified electricians, qual ifj_e(! plm:rbers and,you 1r.nm<7, oua.lified skilled Harkers in other Fords who are trying to get emplo~ent on various job sites. fi_nd the reason that they cannot ~et a joh on a particul2.r job site is that they are not a ~ember of a particular union.

Now that is reasonable enouRh~I suppose. Pnions have clone some ?,ood thinp:s for their members, and the P.atural thjng that you '-'Ould think r,,;ould happen here is that it is just a !l1atter of this indivic1ual joining the J?artjcular union that he has to join in orc1er to get r.vork as a plunber or an electrician or as another form of a skilled ~·.rorker. But vrhen that individual, \vh.o is not in the union, goes to join the union, he is turned at.·<ay, I understand. He is tnrned av7ay.

And I contacted a nu~ber of unions - I vdll not mention the names 0f the unions - but it is MY understanding that unions really noV! are not - and I \vould like for the !'1fnister to suggest w~ether this is accurate or nQt accurate - that ~4ny unions in the Province nm·J ;;~_re just not accepting ne-vr l'l.embers for the sit!'ple fe.ct that the number of memQers that they have - they have a fair nunber of members in their unions now Fho they cannot find jobs for. So it \·~ould seeT"', to he kind of unreal to accept ~ore r!'embers 1.rh.en thl?.y have a great backlog of rn.ernbers \vho are ~1ithout any e~ployment.

But ~,re do have a great nm!lber of skilled ~vorkers in this Province, ~fr. ('hairman, ~.;rho cannot (7Pt a job, you knov.r, on the, say, r.arbonear ~fall or on any other 6449

~-fay 6 , 19 7 7 Tape no. 2304 Page 2 - ms Mr. Rovce. project that mi~ht be under construction~by virtue of the fact that they cannot get empJ.o~'l:'ent for the si.rrple rea.son that they are not in the tmion. Now I vould think that a better procedure here Tirould be for the union to accept all C'ualifie~, you know, plumbers, electricians and Hhat have you into the unions so that ~vhen the opportunity arises or when jobs become available the union is in a position to select or reco~mend the best nualified people for these particular jobs. Because I a~ pretty sure, Jv1'r.

Chairman, that there are very \•Tell aualifierl peorle 1''ho are shut out of the unions because of that problem, that they got a backlor-: of unemployed people in the uni0n a.lreac:1y, but they may l)e even more qualified than soT'1e of the peorJ e Fho are in the unions at the present time. Ancl it seeT'1S to me that the hest (1Ualifi.ed people should get th~ jobs t.Then jobs become available - and they are being shut out. i:·im·7 I do not know if the minister ~ot that point. I do not Hant to, you knm•7, drag it out or mal-e politics ont of it or get in a rant and roaring moorl about it.

But these are t'·70 problen:s that I am faced ~.rith, and I am sure other hen. ~embers are faced vith,rlay after day after day, this business of - it seerrs to me that there is something v:rong in the union agreement Hith respect to the Departtl'ent of Transportation and rol!'r.1Unications, that people ''ith :;;enioritv ,.;ho have struggled ani! ·Forked themselves up tc a good position, ~·!hj ch they probably only held for t'·!O or three years, are laid off, although another person Hho has only hac four years r,~ith the ceparti:lent al to_gether, but have helc~ that position, they are kept on.

I do not knm.:r \vhether it is fair or not, but it has come to my attention. I r11ould like t~e minister to ac.dress hjr:1self to that first point, <:1nd then, of course, the second one, there seems to 'he a virtual shutout of people trying to join unions although they are jn fact extremely ~,relJ cmalifj eel jn certajn skj lled trA.c'les. 6450

~'ay 6, 1977 Tape no . 2304 !='a~e 3 - FS '!'he '11on . F"em'ber has ?rought up t•·•o very rertinent, very ir:1portant points ~ and I ~-:oul~ like t o add ress myself to :,oth . I ~d. ll adclress nyself t o the first one in as -,uc.~ cletaj 1 as I c;on, an<1 re.ybe the hon . 1inister of Tr.<msport::tt:fon and r oli'l!lunjcat joos May like to enl~r~e on it . It is indeed a cues ti0 n of seniority. But the important point that the ho n . member shnt!ld r e:-1ember is this, that seniority prevails only r-1hen the tt.·o oualities of oualifications and ability are equal.

That is theoret ical . l·!hP.the r that indeed happ ens or not - ~ut that is suprosec to happen. \·!here oualifications e.ncl abilHy are equal t hen senio r ity prevc>iJ.s . MR. RO\.fE: Tha t is the union's conce r n, is i t ? 6451

~hy E, 1977 Tape ~a. 2305 ~·ffi.. ROUSSEAU: Yes. Yes. But the problem is,as the han. member suggests, a part of the union agreement. And 1·rhat happens is this, that a person in each nosition,because each one is classified or each classification probably would be a better ~·mrd, that seniority exists in that classification. But the man who is less senior in that classification may be more senior in a lm.;er classification.

That is unfortunate,of course 3 if a man struggles through t1vo years, five year, or ten years of his life to reach a certain plateau and then finds because of insufficient work or lack or funds on the part of the department that he has to revert to a lm.rer classification in order to naintain his job and presumably a lower pay scale,then it certainly is a most difficult situation to cope with.

But the uniors who renresent the neople involved in government services have had that ne~otiated into the contract, it is part of the contract~and it is an extremely difficult thing once something is in the contract to have it negotiated out. YR. F. ROvJE: If the minister would permit a question. Mr.

Chairman: vou know~ since this problem has arisen. did the union forP.sP.P. thi~ n~rri~nl~r problem and nm.; that the problem has arisen is the union satisfied with it and have they made any re~resentations to change it or are they comoletely satisfied ~vith the situation as it exists now even though that problem has cropped up? 1-fR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know., unless the ~~inister of Transportation has had some particular representations on behalf of the 1vorkers of transnortation. I have not received them as Minister of Labour, no.

But again,you know,no matter what w~y you do it there is always going to be inequalities and I think the formula that ~vas presumec to be able to take care of that ~vas that the man Tvho did not have seniority in a certain classification could revert to a lower classification, at least enabling hirn to continue work, albeit at a lower classification and with a lower rate of pay,I guess,in some instances. 6452

Hay 6, 1977 Tane No, 2305 YR.

ROUSSEAU: So it is an unfortunate circumstance but that is the way the collective agreeMent reads, And as the han. member knmvs once something is in a collective agreement it is very difficult to negotiate it out,and this is the ~·my the - I think the question there is of course all these members, all the "t-JOrking peo::>le that the }P-! - 2 han. member refers to,are members of the union and if they feel differently about that then the proper neople to take it to T·JOuld be to the union,and then if the union decides at the next set of negotiations that they Hant to modify that clause in the agreement then of course they will sit dmm with government and do so.

But it is not - you know,a co~tract is made up with the concurrence of both sides,so it is not a matter for government. You know goverp~ent could not say to the union , Here is \vhat you are goinp; to do for your wor l~ers, I mean~ government does not represent the Harkers; NAPE, or ClTE or ~vhatever union it is represents the workers and it is un to them to get to the union executive and to make their feelin?;S l:~o~m and if the union executive feels that this is a majority feeling then obviously some changes might be negotiated denending on the position of the u~ion.

The second question is a very interesting one. I have a copy of the Labour Relations Act as it nmv exists and I will give the han. member the copy, I have it underlined here if he wants to.

Section 6, chanter 1g1, the Labour Relations Act, "Not-....rithstanding any other provision of this or any other act when a person (

a) is not a member of a union which is a narty to a collective agreement but is otherwise qualified for employment by an employer ~vho is party to the collective agreement- is not a member of the union which is party to a collective agreement 6453

Hay 6 , 1977 Tape No . 23')5 ~Q?. . ROUSSEAU: but is qua lifi ed for employmen t t.Jith a narty that i s party to the a~reement-or (

b) applies for mentbershin in a union r eferr ed to in paragraph (a), th e emnlover may a~ploy that person notwithstanding any r r ovisio n of any coll ective a~reenent if the union refuses to accept t hat person into its me.'llbers hip . In other Hords~ the employer d oes not have to do so . )Iovl t he employer may ~ of course, because he has go t p.: ood relations ~-1ith the uni on , choose not to d o so . But the law is there to protect t he person v7ho is not a member of the uni oc and again the 5;overnrnent cannot forc e t h e e.'lloloyer to act under this

section of sect ion 6 of t he Labour Relat ions Act , ~ . ROt.JE : The operative t-1ord there is "may". N'Y - 3 ~ ~. 'R.OlJSSEAU: ()h yes , ~.;el l obviously then it is a - Shall , vou knovl , pr etty uell :nakes it governl"l ent 's deci sion . This is of the emnloyer notv, t he person still \·7ill have to nay union dues . ~Tor:nally r-1hen a person feels very strongly , 'Claybe for relir,ious beliefs - 'fR . !\TEA.RY: Hhere you havE' t he ~and for:n ula. '!R . ?.0USSEAU : The ~and formula 'I ,.;here i t is, But obviously persons may have religious beliefs 6454

}~ay 6,19 77 Tape 23')6 AH-1 HR .• ROUSSEAU: that they do not \lant to become a -cember of an union movement. I an sure the han. member for LaPoile and other people eR~loyed in labour knoH that there are peo-ple like that across the Province. 'ffi _•u·\ . .., ~-TE&~Y: For religious reasons? Possibly. You do not knm¥. :-IP_, ROUSSEAU: These people. normally the union says okay but they still pay their dues if the Rand fomula is in effect. )ffi. ROHE: If the minister will permit,Mr.

Chairman,the point that I was getting at is not the business of l¥hether the employer can in fact employ a person r.vho is not in the union. That is vhat I understand it to be. The employer can in fact - :·H. ROUSSEAU: Yes. althoug~ he may decide not to do so~employ a person who is not in the union but is qualified for the job. TI1e question I am getting at is that there are people trying to get into unions - that is my understanding no\v. I have had constit:lents come to me and say,"Look I have applied for this job, I am told I have to be in the union.

I Hent to the union and they \vill not accept r;1e~' And the reason being given is that the union had said~ "~.Jell look, I am sorry, old man. We >.ave a large number of members in our union '"ho are unemployed and 1-1e do not want to add to that . They cannot find Hark, and -v;e do not want to add to that backlog of unemployed members in our union:.: And 1-1hat I am asking "the minister is can the union in fact stop a person from joining the union~ I guess they can. :·tR.NEARY: That is only half correct 1-lhat you are saying. ~. ROUSSEAU: Right. HR.

NEARY: It is done by mutual agreement bet1-1een the union and the employers. .-lR. RO't<!E: Oh! Yes, fine . So the employer Hill not hire you either. You go to the employer and he says., "No, I cannot hire you because we have an 6455

Hay 6,1977 Tape 2306 AH-2 agreement Hith the union. HR. ROl-lE: Right. HR. ROUSSEAU: But,you knoH,there is a number of ways of looking at it. See,unfortunately~the point now, although the point to be brought up at any time,but at this point in time 'ilith the economic situation across Canada and across :~orth America like it is of course jobs are scarce. You know,the unemployment problem 'ive have in l:Jewfoundland is not restricted to "Newfoundland. You know, it is across Canada and across North America as \·Jell, the United States.

And at this point in time the union,of course~ feels that it has an obligation to the membership that it has. But the han. member should remember one thing; the union '\vould love to have more dues and enlarge its membership. But it is a dilemma for the union 7 to nrotFct the members they now have. But as soon as the jobs open I am sure that any union, and mostly He are taE.:.ing nou about the building and construction trades - MR. ROWE: It is all a function of the unemployment rate. NR.

ROUSSEAU: And t 11c union '\·muld love to have everybody on their list Harking, , and take in new membership, because obviously there are higher fees and greater benefits to the union membership. I knmv the bricklayers and masons, for example, is a small union with a unit here in the Province, just seventeen or twenty members and not a large union, but they have come up themselves Hith a fantastic henefit r>rogram!'!1e for their members and also for thi:l dependents of members should anything happen to a member.

Because the more people obviously they have on their rolls, the more fees n.ey get, '\vell the more they are going to do from the financial vie'" in support of their membership. So it is a dilemma for the unions. The unions •·muld love to have more membership but they have the other problem-, of course,of trying to protect the membership it now has on its rolls. And at this point in time one must remember another thing~ 6456

ilay 6,1977 Tape 2306 AH-3 :-~. ROUSSEAU: there was no question on that letter I wrote to that gentleman when I said that all hiring '\vill be done through the Building and Construction Trades. And the reason '\·le say that in that letter.,and the reason we Hould hold ~.vith that is that ive knm.,r the ~~tlemen ~-Jho are envolved in the · executive positions in the Building and Construction trades, and they are_ not going to stand for non-Ne>vfoundlanders Harking.

In other words, that is another r..-my in Hhich we can ensure that the first people to get jobs Hill be :Cie~·Jfoundlandsrs • Before anybody outside this Province comes in, everybody i.vill be off the list in their union halls as to available ~mrkers. It is not meant to give them a conopoly. But they are a kind of a monitoring system that w·ill insure that ~~ewfoundland labour, of course,is the content fror any job in the Province.

So we say that to them • He gave them a closed shop ,really, on t1:1is job but l;le k!lO\J for certain that these people rtJ'ill insure that the content on any job i.vill be wholly and soley from :Te\·rfoundland except in instances Hhere an employer can prove to the union that, "Look, you do not have t:1e qualified people~~ and if that be the case then obviously of course you cannot . If there is >-mrk being done in the Province you cannot say you do not hire.

If there is nobody qualified and able to do the Harle ~'lere, sure bring somebody else in .Butthe first preference has to go normally to people in the local area and people in the ProvincP., and t~1at has to be the situation and that certainly is the si tuetion. Iiut it is a dilemma for the union, The union ':·muld like to have exp~~ded membership, but it would do no good and I think it is a sense of responsibility on their part. ~<'hat they are saying to John Smth or Jim Jones is,"Look.Itis no good to take your money, I cannot get you a joo.

I have t>:vo or thr(!!e hundred neople unemployed nmv, so "7hy should I take your union 6457

May 6, 1977 Tape 2307 PK - 1 Mr. Rousseau: fees when I cannot get you a job?" That could be done as well. Really they would be on the end of again a seniority list, you know, of the term unemployed. So they would take this money and not find work for the people.That would serve no purpose either because the person would only be out of pocket as well as out of a job. So I presume that answers both questions. If the hon. member would like to have this Act he certainly may have it • MR. ROWE: What

section of the Act was that? HR. ROUSSEAU: Section (6) of the Labour Relations Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Capt. Winsor): Shall 501· carry? On motion 501 carried. On motion 502-01 through 502-09-01 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Capt. Winsor): -Shall 503- 03-01 carry? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Capt. Winsor): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, the Labour Standards Board! Could the minister give us a little rundown now on the activities of this Board- $11,500; last year there was $1,000. MR. ROUSSEAU: If I might read my notes, there are many questions arise out of that.

Now the Minimum Wage Board, as I have explained, will become the Labour S t·andards Board. The Chairman is Mr. H. T. Renouf,recently appointed within the past three or four weeks, Mr. Andrew Rose,who was the Chairman,took employment with the Workmen's Compensation Board, and , of course, was indirectly an employee of government through the Workmen's Compensation Board~and resigned. The employer representative is Mr. H. W. Duffett, Harold Duffett,I believe, from St. John's, and the employee · representative is Frank Taylor, I think, of the Retail Sales and Clerk's Union in the Province.

The secretary is Frank McGrath,who is - MR. NEARY: Labour Standards will do more now than just minimum wages. MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, yes. This is what it is now, of course, but this will be expanded on. I will mention this when I get - 6458 •

May 6, 1977 MR. NR~RY: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: know? MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: Tape 2307 Will . th~y be the new Labour - Not necessarily. PK - 2 That is not the new· Labonr Standards procedure? No, no, no that is the Minimum \.Jage Board. Does the minister have a list .of the names of, you No. Some of these people could very easily go over to the Labour Standards Board ~ MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes. MR. NEARY: but it will be the new board completely? MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh,it will be a new board, ye~. MR. NEARY: And all the old boards will be incorporated and put under one umbrella? MR.

ROUSSEAU: Right, right. Yes. And obviously we are not, you know, presuming that the Act is going to pass~so I have no names. MR. NEARY: No, right okay. MR. ROUSSEAU: But what we normally would do,as we have already done in the past,is to go to employer organizations and employee organizations and ask for representation. So instead of three there will proba~~y be five or seven members with alternate employee and employer representative. The secretary is Frank McGrath,who is a departmental officer.

The remuneration is - the secreatary has no additional remuneration beyond his voted salary as an employee of government. The term of office, of course, is during pleasure. The principal function is to investigate rates of pay, terms and conditions of employment in any trade, industry or business or occupation in any area of the Province,and to make recommendations to the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council and to review minimum wage orders at least every two years.

The rates of pay for the Chairman,for more than the normal working day,$200; for a member it is $140, For a normal working day it is $150 and $105; a half day is $75 and $50,and less than a half day is $25~and obviously of course travel expenses 6459

May 6, 1977 Tape 2307 PK - 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: when they go out from here and so on would also be picked up. The proposed Labour Standards Act provides for the Labour Standards Board which would be comprised of three persons,a chairma~ and two members, one representing employees and one representing employers; in addition, the Lieutenant ·Governor-in-Council may appoint a v~ce-chairman and alternate members. The board members and chairman will be acting on a part-time basis and paid per diem wages.

The Board is intended to replace the existing Minimum Wage Board but will have a considerably: broadened scope which will include authority for recommendiug regulations on the full range of Minimum Labour Standards as well as reviewing and making recommendations on applications for exemptions from the aspects of the Labour Standards Act. MR. NEARY: We really got the cart before the horse; we got the money~we do not have - MR. ROUSSEAU: Right. But we are anticipating - MR. NEARY: - we do not have the authority yet. MR.

ROUSSEAU: We are anticipating sometime before the House closes, I hope this session to have this through. Before the new Labour Standards Act can be implemented the Board will have to consider regulations under nine parts of the Act and that will be consolidated,of course~in the new Act when it is passed. If an employer supplies its employees with meals, board or lodging~ the most he can reduce their wage is below the minimum wage is as follows: per single meals seventy-five cents each, for board and lodgings $18 a week, for board only $12.50 a week~and per lodging only $5.50 a week.

In other words,the minimum wage can be taken- the most recent minimum wage order effective the 6460

?-~ay 6, 1977 Tape 230 8 JH - 1 MR. ROl!S SEAU: 20th of Yebruary 1976,~ale and female $2.Sn an lcour, overtime $3.75 an hour after forty-four hours. ~nth respect to shop assistants,t~at is retail clerks ~ the overtime rate is$ 3.75 per hour after eight hours a day or forty hours in a ~veek,and nersons emuloyed ·in domestic service in a private home the rate of ~·rages shall be not less than $30. no per vleek. HR. LUSF.: There is obviouslv something that I misunderstand here under this head 503. I was _iust ~vonderin~ TJ7l:~ere the vote comes for the salaries.

For example~under every head the first one is usually the salaries. So under this 503 where is the vote for the salaries there exactly? ~fR. ROUSSEAU: V.lell these ,of course, are not employees of government so that their salary will be paid on the rate ·that I have just sugs:rested, the per diem rate. In other vmrds ~ they \vould he part-time and per diem and the $10,0()n there would include - For example,thev only do it once a year anrl no\v "lvhen they go into their revielv they will be travelling across the Province and they "lvill get a per diem rate and their cost of expenses and ever ything. ~ n:z.

SI~ JlA'.ONS: The secretary is a civil servant an~vav. ~ffi .• ROUSSEAU : The secretarv is • So that $10,000 should cover the cost of this year's revie~-7 of the minimum wage and would include the salaries~not the salaries,the compensation on a per diem rate, and the expenses, hotel room and whatever, and the hearing rooms and so on and also the travel expenses. So they are not paid directly out of government. That includes their salarv that Sln,ooo. On motion, 503-n3-0l, carried. HP, • :::TEARY ; sn3-03-02: ~ fr.

Chairman, could t':1e mi.nis ter tell us if there have been any apnlications in the nast year for decertifications of unions? Hm.r many? FR. ROUSSEAU: It ~vas tal:> led in the Pause of Assemb 1 y. I would have to look under this and check but I think there Has one application -.;dth FM- no- down on O'Le.ary . Avenue. That is the onlv one that I am­ MR. NEARY: That was not granted, was it? 6461.

'-ray 6, 1977 Tane 2308 l\-:R_ • P.OU S S EAU : - aware of. Fere there any more? There is onlv one to my knoHledge anrl that was the one on ()'Learv .A.venue, that long strike. But it is all in the 'tabling of the Lahour Relations Penort that I tabled in the House. But to l'lY knm.:ledge there is onl y one. A siD.ilar onestion. I ;:nn iust wondering whether the minister has the information available about the nu~ber of apnlications for certification and hmv many Here approved and hoH many are outstandin,g at this particular moment? ~ffi. ROUSSEAU: This - l'!F . • CEAIIU·tl\ !\! : Shall 503-03-02 carry? ~JfR.

ROUSSEAU: No. ~'B .• LUSH: That is the one I just asked a cuestion on. ~-<R. ROUSSFAU: This information and I have to - It is in here. It is in the report, t:,e annual renort Hhich \-las tabled. It is in there and it will take me a couple of minutes to find it. I could tell the ~onourable member privatelv,but it is in the reDort tvhicl-t has been tabled.

See the report that I am referring to is the renort of the matters transacted by the Tiinister under the Labour Relations Act, the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act, the :Ie'l-rfoundland Teachers 1 Collective Bargaining Act, the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board 1976. ~Tm.; if I had a page on that I v:ould be all right. If mv officials are listening,it Hould be verv helpful next year if they ·numbered the pages tvhen they are passing me this report. ~fR. LUSH: That is the diffic~lty about this. I found it very difficult to locate the information in there. HR.

ROUSSEAU: Yes, there should be - The decisions are all here. :1-fP,. LUSH: At any rate,if the minister t-rill just allmv a further question. The reason for the auestion 'Probablv is not so much as hoH student unions applie~ and how mauy T.;ere rejected, I thin~': the thing I have been getting on to is 'tvhat is the time in getting certified 'las this has been a comnlaint that it takes an auful long time and that 1-1as the reason for the question. whether there is anything under the Labour 6462 •

Hay 6, 1977 Ta11e 2103 J ~ - 3 HR . L!iSF : Relations Board in a new legislation to s~ee4 up t his 9rocess of cer tification? :-1F. .

ROUSSEAU : T.Tell of course t he mai n - the aoplica tio n corres in and normally the u11ion , ~·matever unio11 is involve d in a non - organized area,~vould have cards signed and t-rhen it is presented to t he Labour Relations Board an investigating officer ?~·Jho is inva r iably a conci liat ion officer,2oes ou t and checks the number to make sur e t~at there is sufficient numbe r, fifty ?er cent ~lus one of t he people apolyin~;then of cours e a hea r ing :i.s then held by tl-te Lab our Relations Board . 't'! o~v depending on the tvork load at a gi Yen time l and I think 6 463

May 6, 1977 Tape no. 2309 Page 1 - lb MR. ROUSSEAU: the matter the hon. member refrred to is a very simple one, I think the time has come for us to look at the possibility of a full time Labour Relations Board. I mean, the Board sits once a month, the third Monday, I think, of the month. MR. LUSH: MR. ROUSSEAU: Is that the regular once a month meeting? Yes, and it is not enough. I think the time is coming now when we are giving consideration to the possibility of probably some young lawyer making him a permanent head. 1-IR. NEARY: What do you need a lawyer for? MR. ROUSSEAU: You need a lawyer for

interpretation. I know you want to keep them out. MR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: Why not use Justice Department lawyers? You need somebody who can interpret. You know legislation, the han. member for LaPoile, which is difficult for some people. But the time is possibly come when we have to look at the possibility of a full time labour relation chairman. Obviously the chairman now has other things to do and it is once a month - MR. NEARY: The chairman is going to resign anyway. He is going to Dalhousie to lecture in law. MR. ROUSSEAU: HR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: ~IR. NEARY: over to Dalhousie - MR. ROUSSEAU: MR.

LUSH: I take it. MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. NEARY: MR. ROUSSEAU: The chairman has resigned effective June 30. Have you got a replacement? No, I have not even looked for one. Leo Barry has resigned because he is moving Well he stayed as long as he can. June 30 - This one will be a non-partisan appointment, Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely! They always are. I think this was a non-partisan appointment. I think that labour and management - MR. NEARY: Sure, an ex-cabinet minister, an ex-colleague of my hon. friend, of course it was. We are just green enough and naive 6464 •

Hay 6, 1977 Tape no. 2309 Page 2 Mr. Nearv. enough to accept that. A Tory a b' T d f , 1g ory, an a ormer cabinet minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: Is the hon. member suggesting, now after going across MR. ROUSSEAU: the province as much as the hon. member goes across this province,and as many people as he talks to in the labour movement, that the labour movement were displeased with the appointment of - MR. NEARY: No, hut do not tell me it is non-partisan. I mean,that is not the argument.

I happen to think that Leo • Barry is a pretty fine fellow, a pretty intelligent fellow - But do not try to tell me that it is a non-political appointment. MR. ROUSSEAU: Does the hon. member want a part-time job? MR NEARY: \-Jell, I would not mind. I have to subsidize my salary somehow. MR.ROUSSEAU: What I am saying, it might appear to have been partisan but that was not the prerequisite on the a~pointment. MR. LUSH: How does the legislation state that the chairman of the Labour Relations Board should be appointed, the new legislation~ MR.

ROUSSEAU: By the Lieutenant-Governor in Council,obviously. the problem is that the memb~rship includes two representatives of the employers of the Province and one alternative,and two members of the employees and one al.ternative. Now, obviously there has to be an independent person there. And government~being as independent and as non-partisan as it is,appoints a chairman. MR.NEARY: Bne thing about Leo,he probably had his Liberal membership card in his pocket when he became a Cabinet Minister. MR.

ROUSSEAU: As I say,the specific question brought up by the hon. member for Terra Nova probably is brought about by the work load of meetings once a month and it is pretty difficult for these people to get together ~oreso • We have to give consideration to the possibility of a full time chairman. We have a full time secretary now which helps,but we certainly do need a full time chairman. MR,LUSH: One other question. I do not know whether the minister 6465

May 6, 1977 Tape 2309 lb-l. MR. LUSH: can answer this but just off the top of the head sort of thing, there is a large number of people,a large number of ~..rorkers, not unionized in this province. Of course, I would expect that is one of the major reasons for the Labour Standard Board, because there is a large number • I am just wondering whether there are any statistics or whether there is any information available at all, to indicate the number of people, the number of workers who are not unionized. Is there a rough percentage ? MR.ROUSSEAU: If I gave one I am not held to it.

I think somewhere in the area of sixty to seventy per cent . I ~.;auld guess in that area. MR.LUSH: Not unionized? ~m. ROUSSEAU: No, I am sorry,unionized. I would say between twenty-five and forty per cent. I could not give you the specific number,I do not know if we have that statistic., Somewhere betv.1een twenty-five and forty per cent. I ~,;rould think probably about one-third. Thirty-th~ee per cent might be a good off-the-cuff figure. But somewhere between twenty-five and forty per cent. }1R.NEARY: Mr.

Chairamn, I notice by an answer to a question that I put on the Order Paper for the han. gentleman that there ,.. were no complaints about unfair labour practic~s ,or no prosecutions~ no action was taken as the result of unfair labour practices. Now as- the minister kno,ws unfair labour practi~es usually occur on or about the time that the employees of a company are becoming unionized and make their application to the Labour Relations Board for certification.

It is around that period that the employer then retaliates by doing all sorts of things that are contrary to the Labour Relations Act, creating unfair labour practic_es. Now labour has been complaining over the past several years that it is too difficult in this province to get permission .. from t&e minister to prosecute under the unfair labour practices

section of the Act. 6466

Hay 6, 1~77 Tane No. 2310 ~·~. NEARY: I would like to hear the ~inister's reaction to these comments because I have a feeling there may be some foundation to it. There may be an element of truth to it that the reason that part of the act is not used is because of the long-drawn-out legal '1-Jrangle and the obstructions that are thro