Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 12A (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-12a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATJVJ:;. ASSEI•IBLY OF f-.'liUHTOBA 10:00 o'clock, Friday, November?, 1958. Opening Prayer read by M�. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receivin,':S Petitions Presenting reports of Standing and Sel ect Committees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bill s. Orders of the Day. · Committee of Supply. HONOURABLE DUFF ROBLIN ( Premier ) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourabl e member, the Honourabl e the Minister cf Industry a.nd Commerce that l'vlr.

Speaker do now le a.ve the Chair and the House resol ve itself .into a Committee to con sider of ways and means for the raising of the suppl y to be granted to Her Majesty. £v1R. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the Honourable First Minister, seconded by the Honourabl e Minister of Industry & Commerce, that Mr. Speaker do now le ave the Chair and the House resol ve itself into a Committee to consider of ways and means for the raising of the suppl y to be granted to Her l'v'Ja.jesty. Are you ready for the question? MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put, I woul d like to say a few words on this matter.

It is customary, I bel ieve to have the usual budget statement and budget depate· on this Resol ution. This year, of course, and at this particular time, no budget as such is being presented to the House.

There fore, I woul d not like the members to think th'lt what I am about to say in any way constitutes a budget statement, but it does seem to be desirabl e, Sir, to take advantage of this opportunity to give the House what information I can about the present fin ancial situation of the Province; to say something about the ways and means we propOse to adopt to oay for the bills and measures' that have been presented in this Session; and also if I may, to recount and give a report of the activities of the administra tion,. since it took office some four months ago; and al so ,sive the House some idea of the other matters in which we are engaged and working at the pre sent and which we hope before too lo ng to bring to a successful conclusion.

I start, Mr. Speaker, by 0iving a few facts about the cur rent financial situation of the Province, a.nd Id o so by means of a comparison between our position at the end of September this year and the correspondin;:; figures for the same period of the previous fiscal year. I can report thJ.t current revenues are up. 1

Current revenues for the period ending .Jeptember 30 th this year are .$38, 750, 29 7. as comp1.red to current revenue for the same time last ye1r of :�37, 50 8,924 . which indicates that. current rev enue is up, and it is up to the amount of �?1,2 41,377. Against this, I think we m::�.y reckon the currE!nt expenditure. Current expenditure to cl1te in this ye::�.r for the period ending :Jeptember 30th is $42, 768, 753. compared to a current· expenditure for the same period last year of �P39 � 631,, 402 .

At first glance it would appear that current expenditures are up by the amount of $3,134 ,000 odd dollars but in order to get an accurate comparison, Sir, I think I should advise the House, that there is ::�. large expendi ture included in this year's figure that did nbt appear in last's, and which in order to form a true comp1.rison ought to be sub tracted. Last yea_r , the unconditional grants paid to municipalit ies was O'iid in the month of November, and consequently did not appear in the comparison for the figures up to the end of September.

In this fiscal ye1.r, tha.t siune grant was paid in Nay, and we re call that there W:is an election on June 16th but I'm not in a position to say whether there is any conn,ection or not between the change in payments - I merely make ·the comment ..: but that payment amounted to ��2 ,50 5,99 4 . -- �� 2 ,505 ,9L�5. which I suggest may fairly be subtracted from the current expenditur(3s for this year to get a fair compa.rison, which means the increase in cur rent expenditures disreg.:trding this non-comparable payment to municipalities , is $6 28,40 6.

VJe can see, therefore, th1.t while the current revenue is up $1, 24 1, 000 . current expenditure is up .$62 8,000 . So, I think it can be said the current revenue is up about double current expenditur e. Now, I must warn the House th1.t it is difficult to draw any final conclusions from such a comparison because as -v�e kno1r1, there are another six months at least to go in the present current year and no one can really say at this stage how current expend itures and current revenues will compare when the year is fin ished.

I merely say that on the basis of the inforr'}ation we have at present, th:-:J.t current revenues .1.re up f�1, 200 , 000 . and cur rent expenditures are up about $600 ,00 0. I would also like to report to the House that the tax rental payment from Otta.wa has been estimated by _the Dominion Government on the latest figure �rovided to us, at a little ovef $3 4 ,000 ,000 . It was budgeted for in the last budget as �?33, 755,000 .

If the Feder al estimate is correct, and if it does not decrease before the final payment comes due, it therefore appears th'it we will have a snnll increase of around .;(:600 ,000 . in the income from tha t source.

Again I say that that is not a f��ure that-we can build any substantia l argument on because it is simply too early.to say with 1.ny accuracy wh'lt the final figure will be. -I think, hm'ITever, that in spite of the fact that these fi::;ure.s . 'lre sq tent ative, it is f'iir to say the1.t as far as· one can tell' at the moment, the finances of the Province 1.re in a Sltisfactory condition and that there is no rnrticul'l.r m'itter tow1.rd which I am in duty bound to direct the att ention of the HouE;e in respect of these matters. That, Sir, is a thumb-n3.il sketch of our present financial 2"

situation in the Province up to September 30th last, with com oarison for the previous fiscal year. I think the value of the comparison is simply th�t we seem to be generally on about the same track financially as we were before. Now, having siven th1.t inforrrn.tion, I would like to say a word or two about the method that we are adoptin·:?; to finance the measures that have been approved by the House. I shall deal with these measures one by one in �rder that I might be as clear as possible. ·with respect to the education bill v.rhich we all know will be a very large one indeed.

It is app arent I think to the House from wha.t has previously been said that we will not require any money for the increase in the grant structure for the cur rent fiscal period. Therefore, there is no need to take that into account until that next fiscal period of financin� arrives.

We do, however, have to face the cost of implementing the bill that is ·before us which may be conside ·r-1.ble. �-lost of the cost,· of course, will be in the way of salaries for the adminis trative staff which are already on our stren,;th, and I am told by my financial officers that at the present time, there appears · to be sufficient funds already appropriated in the Department of Education, to take c:1.re of these administrative expenses required to put the scheme .. before the peoole. Consequently, the House has not been 1.sked for more money in this respect.

When I come to the Industrial Development Fund and the Agri cultura.l Credit Act, which I shall link together, because they are similar in their financial requirements. I ,__rould point out to the House a fact which I am sure has occurred to members before now, and that is in order to get these funds operating a rather considerable deal of org1.nization and preliminary work will be necessary. It will be necessa.ry in some cases to find the per sonnel will be available from the department staff.

A good deal of or,sanizational work will be necessary in drawing up the oper ating procedures by which these funds will carry on their bus iness. :\nd I do not expect, .Sir, that it will be possible to get these organizations in oper3.tion much before 90 days -- in fact if they are in full flower inside 90 days, I think I will be entitled to congr'itulate those :v.rho are ch:1r:;ed with the detailed work. By tlnt time, it is likely th'lt we shall be in Session again and we will be able to deal with any financial problems that arise at that time.

In the me:.�.mvhile organizational costs 1-art=sely of an admin istr3.ti ve nature, can be carried in the estimates thJ. t \ll]ere passed at the previous Session of the last le�islature. I am advised by my financial officers th'lt there are sufZicient funds avail able in those previous alloccttions to ta.ke cl.re of wh1.t we con ceive. to be the necessities of these funds at the ,Jresent time. Now, in connection with the Industrial Development Fund, and the �gricultural Credit Fund, there is, of course, another much more important requirement and th:J..t is the capital by which· these funds are to oper-1.te.

The organization expenses 1.re relat ively insignificant� The main requiren1ent for money is for the reserve tha.t will be necessary to provide the fund to make the loans that will be m�de under these acts. Once those loans com mence to be made, monies will be comin�s in by way of interest and 3

other sources, but mainly interest, - in fact I can't think of any other from the borrowers at the present - which will provide the working capital, we trust, to keep these organizations turn in;'1: over. J3ut I would like to m-ake it clear to the House that \ve pro- pose to draw on the reserve for \�rar and post-war emergenci es for the fund to supply the c�oital for these organizations. I should say as well that we will draw on the same fund for \vhat ever money is required for our winter employment bill and the expenses in connection therewith.

I point out to the House that it is for purposes such as this tr-"'_t this fund was established and ':Jerhaps it would be well to read a: word or two from the Act respecting a reserve for war and post-war emergencies to demon strate, or to illustrate, the opinion that I have just expressed. In the

preamble of the act respecting a reserve for war and post war emergencies, you will find among others, these words 11an.d

whereas the purpose and intent of this Act is to authorize the expenditure out of the consolidated fund to be charged to the reserve, of monies for the welfare and employment of the people of the province during the war and post-war periods; and for v.rar and post-war emergencies, and for future uncontrollable ex penditures; and for insurance against future loss of revenue." And then when orou �so down to the operative clauses of that ,'\.et, you will find J:;l-,js

section five - "The Lieutenant-Governor-in Council in addition to all oth�r monies to be expe�ded under the authority of any other Act of the Legislature, in his ab solute discretion may (

a) direct to be expended from the consol idated fund such sums J.S he m3.y decide sho·<ld be expended for the welfare and employment of the people of the province during the war and post-w�r period, and the war and post-war emergencies; and for future uncontrollable expenditures; and for insurance against future loss of revenue, and (

b) loan or advance money to or guarantee the ·oayment of money by, any person, public body, corporation or undertaking, in order to carry out the purpose and intent of this Act and provide for the sharing of expendi tures made and for the whole if any expenditures to be so shared rnay in the first instance be paid out of the consolidated fund and to charge and charge to the reserve; and (

c) enter into any agreement to carry out the purposes and intent of this Act and, (

d) without being limited by the foregoin:;, take all such measures as you deem necessary to carry out the purpose and intent of this Act. 11 And there is more in the bill as T"'rell but thou_�ht I would read those portions because in our opinion they a�e clearly dir ected toward the type of expenditure which we 3.re proposing to make from this fund at the present t'ime. The House will know th�lt in ea.ch of the bills that I have mentioned in this respect, there has been a clause authorizing the use of this /-\et.

It seems to me that such clause was un necessary in view of the very wide powers already in the i\.ct covering reserve for war and post-war emer::?;encies, but it was thou:?;ht good to put it in there so that the members of the House would be absolutely sure as to what was intended. And you will recall that .those clauses were passed by -- in the various stages by which the bill progressed and I do not recall anyone havin;; taken objection to their being there. Nevertheless, Sir, I

thought it right to make a statement in this matter, because I want the House .J.nd the public to understand that as we said we would do when these matters were before the people and I stres s that point, vle are using the post-war emergency fund for the development and welfare and employment of the people of J.l'lanitoba. That is what the fund was there for. We maintained in the past, that it should be used for that purpose and we are putting it to that use now. You may well ask me, what is in that fund at the present time, and are the resources of that fund freely avail able for a o�rpose such as this?

I think, Sir, that I can reply to those questions. There is in the fund at the present time a sum of something over ��15,000,000. Of that $15,000,000 .• the Government regards. $1, 700,000. odd as being com mitted into the purchase of municipal sewer and water debentures. We have purchased these under pre vious legislation from this fund. This le aves in our opinion an amount of somethin�� over $13,400,000. that is available for the purposes that I described. I am sure, Sir, that at least in the foreseea ·ble future that th-at amount represents sufficient for the purposes, th3.t we have in mind.

You may ask me whether the investments in which this money has been placed at the present time can be liquidated without loss to the Treasury and I say that in all major instances to the amount of possibly �PlJ, OOO, OOO. at any rate out of the total, they are available without loss to the public in this respect. I have taken the precautiort of examinin5 each of these items with the staff of the Treasury and have satisfied myself on that point.. So that we have here a fund >,vhich has been accumulated in the past and I oay my respects to those who accumulated it.

I say thow:;h that as we said in the.election time that we would be orepared to use this for the employment and welfare of our people in the development of the Province and that is what we propose to do. Now, Mr. Jpeaker, after havin� s.aid a word or two about the financial situation of the province and of the means by which this Government proposed to finance the measures that we have placed before the Hou.se, I think perhaps I amy take advantage of the opportunity to say something about what this Governme nt h3.s been doin�; since ,;ve came into office. There are two debates, Sir, that are of general interest.

One is the Throne Speech. In tha.t the Gover nillent sets out it 1 s policy for the Session and endeavours to convince the House that it is ·��ood and to defend itself from attack on that policy. And the other is the budget debate v.rhich at least in this instance, I submit could probably be used by a person, such as myself, to lay before the House the record of the Government in the short time that it's been in office, and to �ive the House some idea of the direction in which we hope to :;o.

And I'm goin; to do th1.t, Sir, by a brief reference to the various departments of the ad ministration 'LS it is possibly a convenient method of following the ar·sument and the train of thou·;ht. Now, I want to stress, Sir, that not all the names that I am goin� to �ention are of equal importance. Some of them ma.y p�rhaos may be thow:;ht of as trivial. Some of them are of more lasting importance to the ec- 5

onomy and development of the Province, so that I don 1 t ':!ish anyone to feel that I am trying to blew any particular action up to di mensions larger-than life size. I don't think there is any need to oversell what h·1s been done and I hope that members opposite will just take the statement of what has been done as a state men.t of fact and I'm not askin!; them to embroider it, and I'll try not to embroider it myself.

What we have pl':lnned for the future is, of course, much more important than ':!hat we have done in the past. vmen 1ftre came in, in the field of a;�riculture, we were con fronted with the thre.at cif a drou�;ht and we introduced a fodder relief polici very similar to those 111Thich previou.s Governments have had in Manitoba - and we ma.ke no bones about sayin; that.

There was. an added factor ·which as. far as I am aware was not adopted by previous Governments, and that is, that \ve have estab lished as well a.s a fodder relief for 'the present time' we have' established a small, and I admit it is small, fodder reserve or stockpile, because the experience h3.s been that while many far..; mers may find themselves in a satisf3.ctory feed position as far as they can tell, should the winter be particularly severe, some rn3.y be in trouble and we h:.:t. ve established a small fodder bag to Jrovide against that kind of thim� and to see what can be done to relieve that necessity should it arise.

I would like to say th'lt, as has already been mentioned in the House before, that we are in the process of consolidating all the water control and conservation Acts of the present Statu t e book. It is our intention and we are well adva nced, and we think we h�ve the man that's goin� to do the job set up our Provincial Water Conservation and Control Board v1hich we feel is badly needed in :Manitoba.

Not in any way to undercut local interest or initia t ive because I want to �ssure the House that no one is stronger for that than we are, but merely to help that local initiative by giving it the tools that it needs and local initiative needs more than enthusiasm. It needs engineering advice and in some cases financial and ore;anizational a.ssistance as well. And our new arrangements will provide for th3.t kind of thing. VJe have taken mea13ures to make sure that the interests of this province are protected in the proposed Missouri River div ersion scheme that was previously mentioned by one of the members.

We have sent our representatives to take part with the Interna .. - tion::J.l Joint Cormnission to see to it that Manitoba's interests are established, in the first place. 1tJhat are they?

Vma t will this scheme do for the province of Manitoba? 1j;/hat will be the value of it to this ·Jrovince, and are we get tin·; ·1 fair share in comp1.rison to the contributions that we m3.y be called upon to make.· I must say, Sir, .and issue a warnin,:?; that this is a lon1; and len!,?;thy :)ro.csram, and that no one expects the Missouri waters to come flowin·s Jown here in the future, but we are certainly right in on the ground floor.

We want to make sure, for example, that we don't add to the trouble of drainage on the Red River which is a possibility in this connection, ·without being fully ap:::Jraised of the situation. :'\nd also we w:ant to know what ad vantage it '\iltill brin; to the water-short areas of southern !cian itob�. We're on the job! 6

We are conduct in; as '.vell, SLr·, a current survey of water supply in southern Hanitoba. V.fe have had an investigation m:'l.de of all the water-sh ort area.s. Our engineers have been out, and they have brou�ht back their reports of immediate 1.ncl critical situ::�.tions; some of them have been mentioned in this House and we are r?,;oiw'; to do our very best to see th1.t tho:=3 e are met by the reconunendations which our. experts are br in-sin�'; to us, recom mendations which we feel we can do and take some p1rt in and carry on.

One of the first documents placed on my desk when I .J.ssumed off ice '"'Hs the re port · of the Lakes Winnipeg and Manitor.:n Goard, and that has been mentioned in this RouGe. It was apparent, Sir, that ElS I had stated in the House previously a.nd in spite of the op inion of some, there was no cost-benefi t study in that report.

Now 1t is perfectly true that there were financia.l calcul'ltion$ and perhap s tlnt hJ.s mislead some, and · one can unc:lersta.nd that. ' But I find tha.t as far as the Government ·1t Ottawa is concerned, there is no cost benefit study in that repbrt and they produced good reason showin; me what particul ar items of cost need to be investigated furt her before one can come to an accurate co nclusion on that particular report. I say thc-tt that report and the terms of reference were enterred into on July 5th of 1956.

If you vvill examine pa.ragra.uh six of the terms of reference you will see that a cost benefit study is specifically included. Novr we \·Ji;.;�;led, we tried to wig;le a.round th·1t ·1s hard ::ts we could and say look there are some financial facts, surely there is enou�h to �o ahead on -- 1.nd I for one feel there are -- but we were told 11No11• So without delay, in the same month, in fact ?Lbout ,·'l. \'reek a.fter the report hit my desk and after I had 'l ch::mce to re?Ld it, '-"' e set up our own cost benefit study on tha.t matter with the concurrence of the federal authorities.

We expect that cost benefit study to be ready very soon indeed. 4.nd I want to say to the Hou.se that while I cannot �i ve a fi rm statement as to V\7hen we will co mmence work because we need to negotiate with Ottawa, because I have warned them three times, we exoect them to help us pay .for it. · I want to say that from the informa.tion 1.vailable :-:1.t the present we consider tlnt d:tm to be a splendid thin?; .J.nd it is our inten tion to proceed ·with it one way or another.

So I serve notice on the Hou.:;e, Sir, th'lt they will sometime in the near future be called upon to provide funds for the Fairford D3.m. Whether we will h3. ve to pay for all of it ourselves or not remains to be seen. I have been given wh1.t I feel to be reasonable assurances th'lt th.e Dominion . .:;overnment will slnre th 'lt cost with us, but they will not commence nesotiations until a proper c:o st benef'it study has beeri prep'lred. Th-:t t will be re"'l:dy very shortly indeed.

I merely bring this up because I •,vant the House to know that to the limit of :�u.r ab ility we lnve been takin.'.; prompt 'lction on these problems. I don't blar1e members opposite if they bring in resolutions on matters like this. It's their duty to do so. It certainly elucidates the matter and places t hB sub ject before the public. But I merely want to say that \·ore, in this as in the other resolutions th3.t have been before the House some of which I shall P''rhaps refer to by way of, en passant, as they say in French, as I speak, they vorill find that we have not been inactive 7

in th ese matters. I will say nothing about Agr icultural cred it , we've done th at. Our Agricult ure Research Council is be ing developed. It will probably form part of our Manitoba Research Council and I want to say that legislat ion will be produced here the next ti me we meet to give effect to ,that

part icular forni of act iv ity. Agric ulture also has been, the depart ment of Agritu lture has been very co ncerned about th e research work and other act ivit ies going on at th e un,iversity. We have asked th e· authorit ies th ere to give us a five-ye'lr plan for th e development of th e agricult ural faculty among ot hers at that university. We are expect in� to present rat her a large Bill to the next session of the legislature _ for the const ruct ion of buildin�J:s and faci lities particuLtr ly in connect ion wit h livest ock.

There are oth er requirernents th ere but th ere is a very l:1rge development of livestock co ntemplated for the ·faculty of Agricu lture at the ·university of Manitoba. ' We began th at as soon as we assumed office.

However, the plans were not ready and we are waitin g to hear wha.t they are but I assure you th at th ere is a very close li;:=d.son buildip.g up even closer than before, because I must Acimit a'nd I aJ1i supe my ho nour able friends opposite would wish me to say ,· that th ere ha.s been a good liaison bet ween th e department and th e universit y, but we hope to make it even more effect ive . · I can also say Sir, th at the department is gain,� th roush the th rows of. a reform in many other ways. ·We will be addin � to th a t department an· ext ensive additi on,· :i.n co nservatio n, in farm management and extension services, in th e provision of agr icul tural stat istics .

Someone was sayin1� th e other day we should do something about market in,� problems and indeed.· .we irLtend to do so. But one of th e basic to ols you requir.e in investig at ions of that sort -are stat ist ics . St at ist ics are not .. broken down on a Mani toba basis and we have !nd th e strongest reconnnendations th at v.re should take action in th at respect, . and v.re are going; to im prove our stat ist ical services in th at depart ment. Now, .3ir, th is is by no means an exhaust ive st at ement, but I must not liw;er too lon·?; in any one place.

I 'm not going to say much about Public 'vJorks becq.use v.;e have had a very full debate on th at point durirt� the last few days. I merely wi::;h ·t o say th at in spite of our. i,mtb:i.lit y to convince our fr iends opposite th at we are making any chan;;;;es , I want to assure th em th at we are . That does not me3.n to say th 1.t we're gain:� to scrap the hic;hway system th a.t we have now; th at does not mean to say th at >,ve ·1re not gain ·'!; to carry on rebui lding th e highway system th at v.re have now. Nothi ng of th e kind. We' re gain� to cont inue to develop it .

But we have, Sir, we have step ped up the specificat ions :tnd roads�.that.\.v:ere ·,'3..t .. a,.gi::'·:±Va'l and asphalt specific at ion v,rh:Lch 'provecr unsatisfact6ry, · wj;ll have th at gravel •1nd aspha lt specific at ion impr�:'{'edh lt .. does�.-•:t ·mean th at th ey'll 3.11 be concret e - as that rat her'merry-go-round of a debat e seemed to indicat e last ni�_;; ht - but merely th at we are spending more money per r.1ile of road of th e various ty pes of roads th at we build - and we build th ree or four.types as everybody knows , to tr y and �et a road th at will be satisfactory in the Provi nce of Manitoba .

The Minist er said something about his plannin� and

all that kind of thing. I'm not gain; to reoeat that. The house will know that we decided to increase the assist ance to the Disraeli Overp�ss by offerin: to oay half the costs of the 3.ppro1ches as well -:ts the full cost of the bridge. That w1s an ad hoc decision, made for th·1.t one inst'lnce.

But I want to assure other munici-p3.lities th3.t we will be producin1s before this House in due course, a sta.ndard policy for assistance to municipalities in the building of bridges --1.nd in other arterial roads and streets that rnunicip'llities have that will be a fairer sh�ring of the burden of buildin� those roads as between the Pro vincial :}overnment and the municipa.lity. Those thin.�s will be coming.

If I were to pass on to the department of Mines and Natural Resources, I would say that one of the things that has distressed us ;reatly, and it has d�stressed honourable �entlemen opposite, is the de ores sed rural th1t we have iri south-eastern JvJ.anitoba. ' When we came into office we found that an inter-departmental com mittee h'ld been set up and th:tt this committee h'id ffi''l.de a report. They had reported to the government on February 13th, 1958. How ever when we came to take over the responsibilities o.f office we could find no evidence that any action had been taken on that report.

Now, I 1 m not critical of that, because '''e had a session and ·3. general election in between, and ministers on the other side '-'.Tere undoubtedly very busy. But I would like to tell the House that we have not let the matter slide. The Minister has been down oerson'llly to have a look at some of these things. We have reactivated the departmental committee and we are determined to get some effective action for the people of that area. Down there we h3.ve the most profitable potential forest in the entire nrovince.

A forest whose production of wealth can be increased �i.;ht times '"'hat it is today, if it is properly and efficiently one rated . It is not bein:� properly and efficiently operated today. To do that means that a good deal of co-ordination will have to be done. Because there are people in th3.t area1�0 have m3.de their livings cutting down t,ha t forest, and if new fo rest management measures are brought in provision must be made to assist them in obtainin·s a livelihood some way or another.

For this current winter we will be producing plans to employ a good m3.. ny people, sever1.l hundred, in the management of th3.t forest. And they will be put to work. Roads and fire protection facilities will be provided in th3.t forest so that we will minimize the ter rible tragedies of fires that have taken place in that area in the l ast little time. We are determined to introduce, as far as a government can, specialized crops into that area, o.f the sort that have been mentioned by some members. We see the possibilities of a ·community pasture in th'lt 'lrea, which we .'lre lookin.'s into now.

All these things 3.re practical measures to develop that part of M3.nitoba, for the benefit of it's people. If we have a little time we 1 re ·soin's to produce the goods on it. And I a:Sk members opposite to :�ive us, to have a little patience, to enable us to do that kind of thing. By the t.ime we meet again I hope to be able to report substantial progress to you in the develop ment of that area in south-eastern M3..nitoba. 9

There are other measures th'lt we have in mind for that area but I'll not dwel l on them any further. There is another indus try in the same department which is causing us equal cone ern and that is the condit�ons in the fishing industry on the great lakes of this province. For many years this has been a sore point. We have h:td special select committees of this le gislature. Reports have been made; some action has been taken; and I'm not one to sell that short. Other things we believe can be done.

The Hinister himself, m3.de a_ tour of some of the import'l.nt fish ing stations to try and 'set in contact with the peopl e concerned, and to find at first hand what they h::td to say. And some of them were rather pleased to see him because they had never seen a min ister in ch3.rge of their particular industry before, and we are lo oking in,· ( some of them have, some of them h3.ven1t because thi.-J.t is what they told him) and we are gain; to see wha.t can be done in that ·respect. Whether it wil l be development of co-operative action among the fishermen, such as the University at St.

Francois Xavier promoted in Nova Scotia so successful ly among the deep sea fishermen or not, we cannot say. We realize that �overnrnent itsel f, c:in onl y set the stage; provide certain facilities; and that it ls the peopl e that really must do the job. That is sornethin-� that we try not to forget. But we are also gain,; to try and see >,vhat we C3.n properl y do in !_:;his respect for these peopl e. We know of 3. few things we can do. We know that we can improve the quality and the qu3.ntity - and there is very li ttle of it - of rese arch into their probl ems. vVhy have the fish moved out of certain areas?

Is the pol l ution that we recognize from the 1'-i"J.nitoba pul p a.nd paper mil ls kil li ng the fish at the mouth of that river? Are the regul ations th3.t the 1?;overnment now prescribe sensible, or ,3.re they merel y some thing that 1 s been buil t up by "Guess and by ::;od 11 over the years, as they say. These are the things th3.t we intend to lo ok into. We're going to increase the amount of research into the fishing industry. We are gain,� to study m3.rketin:_; methods· - the study has al rea.cly commenced.

The minister ha.s not onl y talked to the fisher men, he's talked to some of the fish companies. 1pJe 2re studying the question of access roads because in many pl"lces there is no reasonable transport3.tion for the fisherman to get his fj_sh to market except in ways that are under the con trol of certain individuals and organizations. Is that right? Wh3.t shoul d l'!"e do :tbout it? :\re there enou_·?:h roads to the fish ing stations on the west side of Lake Winnipeg and also on other parts of that lake? These considerations ':l.re wel l adv3.nced.

And I am hopeful that when we meet again, I wil l be abl e to present a further report th:::tt demonstrates tlnt we have m:::tde some real progress in this m3.tter. Al so under the same Minister and closely alli ed with the Minister of Agricul ture, is the question of water resources. The previous administration passed

an Act providing for the est ablishment of such organizations such as the lower Red River Va lle y 'vV-3.ter Conm1ission. 1.'v'hen we came into office, we· found bhat in progress. 1;.Je named the commission and established i� ?.nd set. it np. They have since come to us askinr; for engineering assist- 10

ance, as we expected they woUl d, in helpin� them develop their ideas for that area in the lower �ed River Val ley, which is · so seriousl y short of water these days. Vie are ma.kin,1: all the facilities of the government fully available to those peopl e. I believe they are having a meeting very soon to discuss pro gress; if they have, perhaps it was last nL:r,ht, I'm not sure, and one of our department representatives will be there. Here again, is reasonabl e co-operation, I. think, betv1een the government and the peopl e concerned.

We are not cl aimin.<5 any credit for having set up the Act that m:ikes this possible because we weren't in power to do so. Our friends opposite must take credit for that. We merel y say that we are getting on with the job in that respect in an effective way. The Game and Fish branch is one which we feel requires some consideration. Vve are arranging for Dr. Ira Gabrielson- I think he was Director of the United States �vild Life Service who has . made a survey of. game and fish administration of laws and proced ure in the State of North Dakota, and ·in one of the provinces of Canada, Newfoundland.

And we are asking him to come here and to advise us on our game management to see whether.there is any way in which it can be improved. And coming into the same general picture on the industry and commerce side of the equation, there are many measures which 'ire in h3.. nd. We are concerned, Sir, with the development of Northern Manitoba. It was in our pl atform. Vv'e are tryin,:S to carry it out. We have the road buil ding policy of the $1 5,000 ,000 which was referred to in previous debates.

We don't take any credit at all for that particular measure because it was announced before we came into office by the Federal Government, and I bel ieve our oredecessors agreed to go along with them. �;.'e don 1t take any credit for that. 'vve 1re going to do what they woul d have done in those instances. Vve 1 re going a li ttle further, Sir, we are lo cating these fishery access roads that I mentioned a littl e while ago which we hope to include under these schemes with Ottawa.

And we are going a li ttle further with our forest pro. tection roads, particularly forest fire protection roads, in the main forests of the province. VJe are re-locatin,_oS the main nor thern ro3.d that was scheduled to come out at Pine Dock where there's a ferry of some few miles across Lake Winnipeg. It seemed to us that this was a poor terminus for a road - consid erin:r, the troubl e we h3.ve with some other ferries, and, anyway, we find that the lo cation alon:o>; the lake shore is· not very prac tic3.l so that road is being lo cated in another place.

But it will serve the same purpose to open up a very l:'irge tourist area in terms of the lakes alon-:r, the eastern side of Manitoba. And a-lso to help in our forest management and in our fishery development on the smalle r lakes of north-eastern M3.nitoba. And 11 smal l 11 is surel y a comparative term because the-y are very, very l3. rge compared to some other bodies of water. We are taking action, .Sir, on the whole question of northern transportation. Members will have read the Northern Report pre pared by the Arthur D. Little Company.

A report which was inaug urated ·by my honourabl e friend, the member for Flin Flon, and we have taken a good many steps al ready in putting that report into action. ll

One of the most import ant thi ngs is to get a freight rate on th e Hudson Bay Railway that will promote the development and explorat ion of that count ry . We have, for example, at Sip iwesk and Kelsey, and in th at general terr itory, th e makings of a fine pulp and paper mill terri tory. The power is th ere, we just pro vided it a few days ago, or ��de the decision to prov ide it a few days ago. The railway is there but a st udy of th e rates discloses th at th e single biggest ha nd{cap, in our op inion to th e exploita t ion of th at forest, are th e fre ight rates. We are doing our be� t to overcome th at

part icular handicap. W� are consult ing now with the railways concer ned and will report th e progress which we have made upon it, in th e near future. The Depart ment of Industry and Commerce is also erigaged in th e expansion of our to urist indust ry. We are making an inventory of all th e tourist resm:•:::; sites in Manitoba.

When th at in ventory is made, we will th en proceed with a plan and a priority for th e development of th ose site s, eith er by the provision of roads into th em, which is th e major fact or in many cases, or whatever measures are considered advisable in order to promote th at to urist industry. We are inventoryi ng our asset s; we are linking them to our resources, and we are developing a priority by which th ose assets may become •• may be placed in the earning capacity.

When th is industrial development bil l recei ves th e Ro yal Assent, we will assist localit ies in Manitoba in th e establi shment of their local industrial development corporat ion . Act ive mea sures will be taken to promot e th ose by th e depart ment . The city of Brandon, I am pleased to observe, has already taken st eps on th eir own init iative . And we look forward to co-operat ing with th em in th e development of th at

part icular form of local act ivity. We hope th at will go on all over Manitoba. I referred to th e Manitoba Research Council in connect ion wit h agriculture, and, as I say, legislat ion will be here next ti me to put th at into act ion. During th e winter - durin�g th e present period - we wi ll be proceed ing with a program of to urist campsite developments along th e main highways as a winter work project in co-operat ion with th e Federal government. Similar to th e scheme th at I thin k was in effect last year .

The scheme, however, now ta kes in not only th e Trans Canada but all th e major highways that we crre to make recommendations on, and, while I'm subject to correct ion, I thin k it is an expa nsion over th e previous program. But in th e Department of Industry and Commerce, we have another plan that we are developing which we hope will be open for discussion th e next ti me we meet. And,_ that is, we hope to co-ord inate in a way th at is not done so far, our act ivit ies for th e development of th e natural resources of th is provi nce. There are many problems in connect ion with northern devel opment in

part icular, and with industrial development as well in the southern part of the province. Some of th em are financial; some of them are economic; some of th em are matters of tr ansport at ion; some of them are th e matters of market ; some of th em are th e matters of negotiat ion and interest in co nnect ion wi th outside capit al; some of th em are in connect ion with th e development of 12

MR. ROBLIN (Continued): local initiative and interest. �nd we have it in mind to estab lish a separate ,3.uthority which would have the responsibility of co-ordinating all these various aspects and developing the northern policies on which we have decided. I don't think it is necessary to say much in the field of education because the bill that this House has unanimously passed is generally reckoned to be a very considerable advance. And, I believe it to be.

And I trust that with the same co operation that we received when the bill was in the House, re ceive the same co-operation outside the House, that we can put this bill into use. I know th-3.t some honourable members have reservations about certain parts of the bill - that's only to be exoected - and I'm not making any complaint about it at all. But now that the bill is here, I hope that we will get together and make this work and put it to the use of the people of the province.

We have a Royal Commi ssion report or, shall I say a special study, I'm not quite sure of it's correct description, in con nection with physical fitness. That also was a matter that was initiated by our predecessors. We have not yet decided how we can implement that report. Much of it ties in with the question of curriculum which is still open. Perhaps it would not be wise to proceed too quickly With that until we know what the reoom mendations of the Royal Commission on education are in respect to curriculum.

However, there are certain aspects of it that have nothing to do with the schools, that are really community problems. And with thQse we feel we can proceed and dec ide what course we shall follow. As I intimated when I was talking ab out agriculture, we are also concerned with the development of the University of Nanitoba. We have asked the �uthorities of the University to give us a five-year plan, particularly in respect of their pro jective capital requirements for that University.

We feel that when the new school bill comes into effect, there is an excellent chance of doubling, of doubling the high school pop ulation, we feel that many more of our young people will want to take ..,.dvantage of a uni versit,y· education. And we want to be ready to have those facilities available to them.. So we are making a study of these requirements. We have asked the author ities at the university to give us a future projection of their needs and we shall, in due course, be asking this House to pro vide the 'wherewithal' to make those thin•:;s possible.

Now, Sir, in connection with the department of the Attorney General, there are certain things that we have done. \ve have increased the accommodation at Headingley by the provision of a minimum security addition which we trust will be complete in December. That will accommodate lOO more inmates. We 1r e the first to admit that building a bigger prison doesn't solve any thing very much. Building a bigger prison doesn't do anybody very much good and it's a little bit trying to the taxpayer.

But faced with an immediate situation of a desperate overc rowding there with a clear warning-from the head of the jail that we could expect an 'exp losion' if something was not done (and that W3.S the warnin,c; that he gave us) we decided that we would b� 13

MR. ROBLIN (Continued) remiss if we did not take action on that matter. And that we have done. In connection with the Manitoba Home for Girls, we are abandoning the residence at Dynevor, as I think the House knows. Arrangements have been made to acconunodate most of the girls at the Home of the Good Shepherd until the new school is ready. There are a few termed 1incorrigibles1 I'm afraid that get purely custodial care and are not in the Home of the Good Shepherd. Final plans for the new girls' residence will be ready very shortly and we expect to call the tenders in January so that we may proceed.

But, in the meanwhile, we feel that these girls are very adequately taken care of where they are now, and I think it would be unbe coming of me if I did not express the appreci ation of the govern ment to those who made that accommodation possible. It was a very public spirited and kindly gesture towards those girls and one which we have not overlooked. I would like to tell the House that some constructive measures are on foot in this department. Very shortly now we will com plete our plans for an expanded probation service in the province of Manitoba.

We have always felt that we could make better use of probation officers, particularly for first offenders an d juveniles. We don't minimize the problem nor do we maintain that prQbation officers in themselves are the solution to our delin quency or other problems, because they are not. But we are con vinced that experience elsewhere is worth copying and thtt we can restore, at a reduction of cost to the taxpayer, incidentally, some of these convicted people to a regular life • Some, of course, we can not help in that way. We also have under study as to what we vvill do with six months-and-under prisoners.

Right now we face the problem of putting them in the jail at Headingley or wherever, and people say, well they're only here for a short period, you can't train them; and there is some lo·sic to that argument; or the conditions are such there that there is no segregation; no facilities for training, and all that kind of thing. And we are in the process of developin'S plans to provide an alternative form of detention for those people that we think will help them get back on the 'rails' better than the present system does.

You will know from reading the paper that the Federal gov� ernment has decided to adopt the Fauteux Report and we have offered our full and complete co-operation with them in that deal. We feel that this opens up a new era of prison management and of prison reform in Canada. It will certainly reduce our responsib ilities considerably and I think allow us to give more attention to those prisoners which do come within our charge. Now, Sir, I must say that the problems of juvenile delin quency are still with us. A committee has ;iven us a, I believe, a preliminary report on what we should do.

We are considering that and we will h�ve to see what measures can be devised to help in this problem. The honourable the member for Ethelbert, I know, will agree with me v.rhen I say that this is a matter that '14ill not solve itself, and will require the best efforts that we c:tn give it. And we are conscious of the strength of the argument that the 14

MR. ROBLIN (C ontin ued ) home is th e place where these measures co mmen ce . But if th e home· fail s , th en the onus I' m afrai d se ems to fall on us . We have been very active in th e Dep artm e nt of Health and Public Welfare . One of th e first th ings we did was increa se the age at whic h fre e polio shot s we re given - fro m 20 to 40 . I should li ke to expla in why th at me asure was tak en. I'v e bee n in for med and I pres ume it is co rrect , th at a pr op osal to do this was not co nsidered advisa ble by th e previo us admi nist rat ion .

But when we con sidered that Manito ba was the cen tre of polio inci d ents in North Amer ica ; that adult s from 20 to 40 were atnong those most se rio usl y affec te d by it ; th at the cost to th e tre asury was 'rel at ive ly small ; that we see me d to be faci ng a po lio ep idem ic , that th is would be a splen did means of prot ectin g again st it , in more ways th an on e . Be caus e it would give that impe tus of publicity in a sen se and make . fac ilities avail able th at pe rhaps were ignored by th e popul ation be fore .· I sup pose most peop le co uld afford to oay for it .

We co nsid ered it wise to put it on th e list of fre e bi olog ies alon g with many other fre e biol ogie s. Beca use if by that way we co uld per suade peo ple to ta ke adva ntage of th is se rvic e and el iminat e th e inci den ts or th e sev erity of pol io , th e costs to us would be return ed many ti me s over in the mainten ance of those polio pat ien ts that would not oth erwise be saved . To say not hin g, what so ev er , of the human val ues in vol ved .

So while people can aff ord to pay for small pox vacci nat ion s , I supp ose , other th ings on th e list of free biol og ie s, we th ought it se nsible from a humane and from a. financi al po int of vi ew both to make th at ch ange of poli cy. I must n't dwe ll on it to o lon g be cause in it se lf it is a mi nor th ing. But I am able to say that some other step s have been ta ken in th is gen eral fi eld . We have arranged for an extra cl ass of x-ray te chn ic ians to be grad uat ed this year or to co mmence th is year to me et the incr easin g dem and for x-ray te ch nic ians at our health uni ts .

One of the big gest prob lem s we fac e in this de partme nt is th e qu est ion of tr ai ned sta ff . We are tr ying to he lp ours el ve s by this so rt of 'i n train ing ' pro c ed ure . From the 30th of June last , no more lien s are placed again st pat ien ts in our me ntal inst itut io ns . That has been abolish ed . The re are many future plan s in this de partment . We are ho ping to en large exist ing health unit s and add to th e health unit s that we have in th e provin ce .

This , of co urs e, is ti ed to the que s tion of pe rson nel and we are busy prov idin g th e person ne l so th at we can under ta ke th is expansion . We will be expect ing to ask you for more mone y for buil din g at Portage La Pra irie and at Sel kirk . We are inc r.easin g th e fac ili ti es for the train ing of pract ical nurses by 50 % . Three cl asses this year instead of two .

We are negot iat ing with Ott awa to plac e 97 of th e beds in the ��nit oba Sanitar ium at Ninet te under the Manit oba Hos pital Servi ce Pl an , 'to take care of th ose chronic cases which ne ed cust odial nursin g and th at so rt of thin g . We are negoti at ing with Ottawa to exten d th e out -pat ien t de partment ser vi ces , that are not provided now under th e hos pital se rvic e pl an, esp ec iall y for minor surgi cal proc edures . What happe ns now is th at out pat ien ts normally are not under the pl an .

So if anyon e go es . in for minor surge ry, they go into a bed and stay th ere for a day or so ; at a ver y hig h co st co mpared to th e out -pat ien t se rvi ce . 15

MR. ROBLIN (C ontin ued ). We th ink it good ec onom ics and good from a me dic al poin t of vie w to tr y an d pr ovide th at out -pat ien t se rvice as part of th e pl an, and we are doin g our best to se.e that that is bro ught abo ut .

We are go ing to es tabl ish, appr oval has been give n, for the esta blish ment of a full ti me plac eme nt of fi ce whose jo b it will be to ge t th ose ch ron ic cas es th at are now - I sh oul dn 't use the word 'c lut ter ' because we are dealin g wi th human be ings - but who are occ upying beds in th e act ive ho spita l at a ver y high rate - $20 .0 0, and .more in some .

We are s.ett ing up a pla c eme nt dep art me nt to help those people get out of those act ive be ds an d into beds where th ey ca n rec eiv e the kin d of care that th ey req uire at a smaller cost to us , and als o to make more be ds avail able in our act ive hospitals . We have ext ende d th e polio home care pro gram to ge t polio pat ien ts who have. been in the hospi tal for a number of years ou,t of the hospital and back home . We 'v e ma de addit ion al gr ants to make that kin d of th ing poss ible .

We are foll owing up th e ef for t s of th e previous Minis te r of Heal th to enlarge th e di sability al lowanc e program . I don 't know wheth er we will be any mo re suc cessf ul than he was, but we have don e one or two th ings to cut do wn the ti me lag by eli minat ing the municip al lin k in th at . We foun d on study that th e munic ipal it ies simply we re act ing as a post off ice fo rwardin g the cl aims to us ; we have agre ed to ta ke that lin k out of th e chai n. And we are workin g very hard to get a chan ge in the di sability allo wanc es made .

I me rely say th at as a progre ss re port beca use no one knows whether we will be successf ul or not . When we came in, we found a ver y dist re ssin g backlo g of cases in the adop ti on ser vi ce . We 'v e hired anothe r lawyer to he lp us cle ar this up so that we can get th ese ch ildren into the home s of the marri ed peop le that want to take th em in. And , inci den ta lly , we expe ct to be brin ging in leg isl ation to revise th e adop t ion law to make it more workable th an it is at th e pre se nt ti me . But th e main th ings in th is dep artm ent , Sir , hi nge ar ound the hos pit al. plan .

We are co nsci ous th at we will not be ab le to oper at e th� plan eff icien tl y at th e least po ss ible cost unles s we provide con val escen t ac c ommodat ion; con valesc ent acc ommodat ion th at will provide for th e older pe op le , for example , that are chronic cases or that ne ed bed care . Some of th em also can get al ong with less care th an that . They can be give n th at acc ommodat ion in a co n valesc ent hospital .

Peop le who are recov er ing from se ri ous ill ne ss es or acci den ts can be placed in inst itu t ion s of th at so rt and given th e kind of care th ey ne ed at a much lowe r cost th an we are paying to day in our act ive bed hospitals . The medical people tel l us we are 20 years behin d th e ti me in our hos pital dev elop ment prog ram here , and we 'r e goin g to try and catch up a little on it . We als o are making plan s , Sir, for th e es tabl ish ment of a reh abi lita t ion ho sp ital th at will be used by th ose who ne ed physical th er apy, and at ten tion of th at so rt .

It will be part ic ularly va luable for Workmen 's Co mpensa t ion ca ses , so that th es e me n may be bro ught ba ck to full se lf-s up port ing stan dards . Our advi so rs in th e te chn ical field , te ll us th at there is a ne ed for a sp ecia liz ed hos pit al of that so rt . We inte nd to brin g me asure s 16

MR. ROBL IN (C ontin ued ) to pr ovide for it next ti me we me et . A school of phys ical ther apy can be es ta blished wit h that , and th at is under invest igat ion at the presen t ti me as we ll . · Today the Minist er is me etin g in a ro om acr oss th e hall , to con sider th e probl ems of th e aged , and the pen si oners , that were disc usse d here th e oth er day .

He will be me etin g again next week with other people to co nsid er th ese other probl ems that we have here ; beca use we are not anxious to proc ee d by a hit -and- miss prog ram, that is il l-con si der ed or unco- ordin ated ; our inten ti on is to for m a master plan for th ese thin gs so that we can pro ceed in a l ogi cal an d ef ficien t manner ; so that th e most import ant thin gs can be don e fir st , beca use th e Hous e will re co gnize , as we do, that th ese th ings can only be don e in stag es . But we inten d to know where we are go ing and how we are goin g to do it .

And acti ve study has been given to th os e thin gs sin ce we came in and we 'w ill have co ncrete proposals to place bef or e you when next we me et . ·M oth er 's All owanc es will also be th or oughly ref ormed if we have our way with the Fe deral Govern ment . We have al rea dy as part of th e rep ort on Nort hern Manito ba , ta ken st ep s to re in forc e th e . health ser vices in that area , beca use in th e growth of the se new to wns and sett lemen ts, we fin d that to be ver y badly ne eded .

They are not under re gular munic ipal organiza t ion in many cas es and req ui re th at kind of at ten ti on from us . The Dep artment of Labour , / Sir, has it s wint ef employ me nt bill . I th in k we are en ti tl ed to some small cr edit for havin g taken th e init iat ive in Canada in th e brin gin g in of a bill of that so rt , and we hope that it wi ll prove ef fect ive and us eful to th e men who ne ed th at kind of help . We have held me etin gs with trade union s and with management on th e lay-off sit uat ion in Tra nscon a.

Beca use while we be lieve th at th e ult imat e future of that to wn is brig ht , and th at there will con ti nue to be for many years , a large and modern plant of th e rail ways th ere , we do fa ce th e fac t that some men who are unem pl oye d from ti me to ti me , by reason of age ; by reason of thei r tr ade ; by reas on of their establish ment in that locali ty, are in a dif fi cu lt sit-· uat ion whe n it co mes to fin din g alt ernat ive empl oyme nt .

It may be that our re sults , that our effor ts , may be small , but at least we are go ing to make an ef for t to do what we cane Minimum .wage , en for c ement of th e Fair Wage Act , ch anges in the Vacation With Pay Act , may all be anti c ipat ed . We rece ived th e other day, as you know, 1. Roya l Co mmiss ion on th e Workmen 's Co mpen sat ion Act , and I visu alize sweepin g re form in th e leg is lat ion co veri ng th at matter when next we me et again.

In th e De partme nt of th e Municip al Minister we have ta ken st ep s to es tablish a local go vern ment district at Churchill as rec ommended in the No rthern Repo rt . We are revi ewi ng the fin anci al po si tion of all th e local govern ment dis tr ict s, and I believ e th at we may be able to prud ently and fairl y aut ho ri ze a red uctio n in ta xation on acco unt of th e large reser ves th at have been broug ht to our not ice by th e Co mptr olle r-G en er al . We are hopi ng to help munic ipali t ies with th ei r aud it i,ng probl ems and a study is under way in that resp ect .

And th er e will be a re form of th e Munici pal and Pu blic Ut ilit y Board legisl at ion bro ught before th is Hous e when next we me et . In the De partment of Public Ut ili t ies we are negot iat ing 17

new north ern power rat es with some co mmunities that have exce ed ingly hig h rates . We have aut ho rized th e expansion of the plant at Ke ls ey , as th e Hous e al ready knows , and we are en terin g into negot iat ions for the ex pansion of our nort hern powe r netw ork� That in part , at least , fulfills th e view s of th is part y, that co mmunication and power were among the ch ief requir ement s of nort hern qevelop ment , and we .a re go ing to do somet hing to see that th ose req uire ment s are met .

I would also like to say that while th is is a very small thin g indee d - we to ok act io n at once to install an au xili ar y powe r unit in the polio ho sp ital here aft er we had the unfo rt un ate brea k in th e power suppl y.

I' m not go ing to say to o much abo ut TV dev elop me nt, -th ere 's a deb ate on that in progre ss - merely to say th at the tech nical asp ect s of the matter still have not been resol ved by th ose who ente red into a co ntract with th e Gover nment to do so, and we ar e doin g what we ca n to help th em get on with it , and wait ing anx ious ly for some co ncret e resul ts $ We are studyin g the provi si on of ap peal machin ery for th e Mot or Vehic le Board .

Right now, as the House knows , there is no appe al from th eir dec is ionp an d if I have given th e Board it s cor rect ti tl e , I 'm refer ring to the one that 'ha s to do wit h lic en si ng and th at so rt of mat ter , as far as driv ers are con ce rned . But we are co nside ring th e matter of provid i ng some appe al from that o Let me say , so th at I should not be misunder stoo d , that th at is an exce llen t board , we ll run, and a cr edit to the Minister and the Gove rnme nt who set it in mot ion, and a cr ed it to the people who are in it now .

But it se ems advisa ble th at there should pe rhaps be some reco ur se fro m any decision that it lays down . The Provin cial Secr etary has prov ided us wit h Hansard - of which there are mixed opin io n. We have bro ught in th e 40- hour we ek for ce rta in emp loyees in the inst itutions which did not have it before . We h ave under take n to introd uce a group in sura nce pla n for th e Civil Ser vic e as a whole , by th e ti me th e next est imates roll around . And as I intimat ed in the House bef ore , we are making a co mplet e review of th e pen sion si tuat io n for our ci vil se rvants .

Cer tain pen sion ers that are cases of hardship have al ready been dealt with . We are lookin g at all th e others . When th os e facts are av ail able before us , and when we have th e price tag that goes alon g with it , we 'l l be in a position to te ll the Hous e what we should rec ommend in that ca se . I' m goin g to co nclude my remarks , Sir , by saying a word or two abo ut th e de partm ent which I am resp onsible for - and th at is the Trea sury .

I can rep ort th at sho rtly aft er we as sume d office , we we re able to make ar rangement s for th e dis posal of the rac e tr ack bon d, which had been purcha se d on election da y. They are no long er in th e prov inc ial port fol io ; th ey have been pla ced in priv at e hands , and our mone y is back in our hands and we 'r e us ing it fo r other purp oses . The Treasury Board or th e Pr ov inc ial Trea sur er , acc ordin g to th e st atute, reduc ed th e support rat e on munici pal bon d is sues from Si % to 5� .

The same ho lds tr ue for th e school de ben tur e so I have no ca lcul at ion to sh ow what th at meant to th e School Boa rd 18

MR. ROBLIN (C ontin ued ) , but I can give you th ese fighr J s as to the meanin g of on e -quart er of on e pe rc ent to the munic ipali t ies si nc e th at came into force . Car man, $1 3,5 00 , savin g of inte res t ; Assin iboia , $9 ,1 00.0 0; Carbe rry , $5 , 400 .0 0 ; Swan River , $6 , 000 .0 0 ; Flin Flon, $5 , 100 .0 0; Charles wood , $7 ,9 00 .0 0; Fort Garry, $3 ,0 00 .0 0; Brandon, $7, 900 .0 0; Russell , $900 .0 0 ; Morden, $2 ,1 00 .0 0 - Tot al , $6 0,9 00 .0 0. So th at move was ben efic ial to th e municip alit ies that we re affe cted by it .

Well , Sir , if I may say just a word ab out the Tr ea sury Boar d, to gi ve you a so rt of - to gi ve you an idea of the kin d of thin g in which th ey are en gaged . One of their purp oses , of co urs e, is to stu dy th e financial and administr at ive oper at ion of th e gove rn ment , to see how we can improve th ings --what th e ef fect of new polic ies would be and all th at kin d of th ing. And it see med to us adv i sable to co -o rd inat e and se t up a body th at co uld unde r tak e these inve stig at ion s for us .

I have a lis t of some 35 that they are looki ng into now-- such th ings as th e effect of th e Manitob a Hospital Pla n on prov i ncial expenditures and re ven ue ; co mparat ive bo nd yields , and average purch ase pri ces ; co mparat ive pr ovin ci al tax studi es ; five-year fore cast s of ex pen di ture and rev e nu.e to be renew ed ; significan ce of pop ulat ion es ti mat es on federal-p rovin c ial tax ag re ement -- al l th e so rt of thin gs .that will be familiar to members and Minister s op pos ite , beca use. that 's the kin d of thin g th at th ey have be en deal ing with in da ys gon e by .

A few new pro je cts - cr op benefit fin ancin g fact or s re hi ghways , bridg es , roads ; th e el abor at ion of th e ut ilit y con cep t ; pr eparat ion in Manitob a 's cas e for assi stanc e re Red Rive r Valley floo d co ntrols , and Lak e Winni pe g and Manito ba flood co ntrols ; ty pewrit er se rv ice con tr act s analy sis ; study of gasol ine anq mot or fuel powe r tax on a ge ner a l tax ve rsus road user ta x c1on cep t ; diesel fuel tax co llect ion s ; ga sol ine and mot or fuel tax over haul ; 5-y ear forecast of expen ditures of ut ili ties ; study of th e dep reci ation reser ves ; stu dy of municip al deb t gua rant ees versus inte re st guarant ees only - th ere 's a si gnif ic ant effect on th e cl aim on the Con sol idat ed Fund under some of thes e, we thin k - submis sion s to th e Bord en Commis si on on en er gy ; orga niz at ion and meth od stud ies ; space, eq uip ment and fu rni shin g for offi ces ; govern ment owned ca rs ; tr avel reg ulat ion s ; pay as •••. reg ulat ion s and fringe be nefit stud ies ; es tablish ment in number of emplo yee s in each de partme nt ; study of gove rnme nt and ut ilit y sel f-in sur anc e and insura nc e pla ns gen er ally ; study of el ect ron ic acc ount ing and co mput ing pos si bilit ies th roughout th e se rv ice ; po ssi bil ity of usin g sten og raphic .p oo ls ; study of broad en ing the Ci vi l Service Supe rannuat ion Pla n - and so on an d so on, and so on .

All studi es which be ar on th e eff ici e nc y of the admini strat ion .

We feel that pot enti ally th is Board can, by mea ns of it s sugge st io ns ,- eff.ect mat er ial savin gs in th e op erati ons and in the ef fic ien cy of th e ad ministr at ion, and we inten d to car ry th rough with it to se e how best we can improve what . is gener all y ad mit te d to be a pret ty effic ien t organ ization anyway, -· I cer ta inly would not wi sh an y oth er meaning to be ta ken from my words - but there is nothin g th at can not l:)e improv ed, and we 1r e go ing to see if we ca n't make some addit ions here . · Mr.

Sp eaker , I' ve sp oken for quit e a lon g ti me and I' m sor ry if I' ve outworm my we lc ome with the Hou se , but in vie w of the fact th at we did n't have th e usual gener a l discuss ion s this year 19

MR. RO BLIN (C ont inued) on depart mental est imates , I th ought it would be fit t ing for me to give the House some idea of what we had been up to. Now in summing it up , I th ink th at I could conclude fairly , in th is way , th at since we have ta ken office , we ha ve been act ive in th ose immediate prob lems which prese nted themselves to us . I don't claim, and please underst and th is, I don 't claim th at in th ose four or five months we have turned th e world upside down , or made any radica l reform of anything that we have put our hand to in th e Province .

Common sense te lls us th at is something th at cannot be done withi n th at short period , even if it were possible on other grounds. But it does indicate th at we have been act ive in tackling our prob lems; it does indicate th at we have ta ken act ion already on th e motions and resolut ions th at members oppos ite have placed before us , so th at we are just as cog niz ant as th ey are of th e proble ms which th ey seek to bring to the atte nt'ion of th is House.

And I have sketched in some general way th e pro j ects we have in hand, and th e proposa ls th at we intend to bring down into the next House , in order to give some indicat ion of th e fact th at we have not been cont ent merely to do th e day to day job, but insofar as time and ability permits , we ha ve tr ied to come to grips , at least in an init ial way , with th ose larger problems which affect th e development and welfare of our Province.

And if we cont inue to work hard , and if we are as success ful as we hope we may be , we have good expect at ions of bringi ng into th is House , next ti me we meet , measures th at will be progr es sive ; measures that wi ll be with in our power to pay for - because we are carefully looking at th at aspect of it I do assure you - and measures which will generally commend themselves to th is House and to the people of th e Province as being good for �B nito ba . MR. D. L. CANPBELL (L eader of th e Oppos it ion): Mr.

Speaker , I move , seco nded by th e Honourable th e member for Port age la Pra irie , that th e debate be ar journed . Mr. Speaker read the motion and after a voice vote , declared th e motion carried . (c ont inued on next page) 20

MR. SP EAK ER : Ad jo urned de bat e on the prop o sed res olu tion, the ho nourab le member for St e. Ro se . The ho noura ble member for Bra ndon� MR . LIS SAr<AN : Mr . Spea ke r, I believe we have heard the Firs t Mi ni ster this mornin g make re feren ce to thi s re so lu tion an d I thin k th at he ha s co ver·ed the main poin ts which are of con cern, far bett er than I would be abl e to do . However ,. I thin k sin ce .I am go in g to move an amendment to thi s re sol ution, th at I wi ll , at leas t , co ver in a brief fa shion th e thin gs th at I orig in all y in te nd ed to cov er .

Now, cer tai nly when on e reads the res ol ut ion, th ey le ave on e with a misl ea di ng impressi on. And I woul d no t want the Ho use to draw the same co nc lusion as I have drawn . Also , I ce rtain ly want to leave no impres sion with the House of castin g an y refleet:i,on s upon the member who propo sed tht s resol ution. Neverth el ess , I feel that he did make a rnista"e in that he con fu se d what . migh t be ter med a fin an ci al aspect st udy with a true cost benefit surve y.

Now, in so me ways it is a li ttle diffic ult to under st an d how he made thi s error , because paragrap h si x of th e report defin it ely pre cl ud ed such a stu dy bein g made by .the La kes Boa rd . The con cl udin g sen ten ce of the . parag rauh says , 11a survey an d report sh al l be li mite d to th e matte rs me ntion ed above an d shal l not con tain cos t ben efit es t imates . 11 Now, ��r.

Spea ker , the ho nour able member qu oted certain fin an ci al as pect s which ws re referred to in the report , such as the $1 ,480 ,000 .00 exc avat ion an d the - $1 20 ,0 00 .00 con trol dam on the Fai rford River as bein g a cos t of $1 ,6 oo ,o oo .o o and show i ng that durin g the th ree years , '54 to 156, th e lo ss es, property damage , an d so on, ap proxi mated the sa me :figure . Now, from th is, qu ite ob vi ou sly , he ha s con cl uded , but nevert hele ss, errroneo usl y , th at the pro ject see ms to pro vide a :favourable cost ben e fit ratio .

Now, all members must reali ze th at in a stu dy su ch as th e La ke s Boa rd made of the si tuat ion, ther e ce rtain ly must be so me es ti mate of the damage!3 in cu rred and so me es ti mate of th e propo se d cures that might be con te mplat ed , an d the se the n must be we ighe d in th e balan ce and si mply used as th e ba sis fo r a true cos t stu dy . Th i s the La ke s Bo ard did . The ho nourable member mistaken ly ha s as sumed this rath er preli minary st udy of the fin an c ial si tu ation con st itued a true cost benefi t es ti mate of th e si tuat ion .

Now, th is is . rather lik e , ( I might draw a little asi de from th is) it 's like ba sin g your cost ben efit fig ures on the proposal that your wife might buy a $5 .9 5 hat . No w, to certain unmarried peo ple , th ey might thin k, well here 's the cos t of ·�5 .9 5 an d the ben efit s ma y be ce rta ±n ly so me improved appearan ces .

But when you start to an al y'z e the si tuat ion, you wi ll fin d th at probably when the hat co mes home , th e co lo urs do n't sui t an ythi ng that are ava ila ble at the ti me the lady ha s to we ar - you end up with buyi ng a whole new out fit an d you can see that as your st udy progre sses, the orig in al fig ures see m to grow and take on a new as pect . An d this is what may oc cur in th is si tu at ion . Beca use a· cos t benefit study must be very ·se arc h in g, far more se archin g than the Lake s Boar d stu dy \vas . On. the co st si de, de taile d con si de rat ion must 21

he gi ve n to �e cap itnl cost of th0 origin � l str uctu res , the work in volverl , the i n t er e st 00 t�e in ve stmen t o� tha t mon ev, then the depreci� ti on of th�t nro ject over a given te rm of yea rs , th e op erat ion �n rl ma in te nRn ce cost� over the ye ar s, and va rio us othe r relate d i t em s. On the ben efit si de , I thi nl- it .is on ly f1i r th.

"lt •·m rm st 1l so st nc1y the nn nua l cos t :=1r rived .lt ov0r the oeriod of years for •· rh:t ch you 1-(lve reco rrls. no '.''' it 's tr ue that the ye ars '5 4 t o 1Sh show a ve;ry J-, eav y lo ss , but I un de rn t� ,n d that recor d s h;:J.ve be en l<·ep t sin ce 1914 ;'lnr:l vre mu st eo bac1 ' tr 1en -"tncl see ho w frequen tly the se Periods of hig h wa ter which caused rl.amage re curred duri ng that ti me . It 's in te restin � to not e th at sin ce lC Jl4 there we re t• . ..ro co ns irl ernbly hig h le vels of •r rater recor ded .

Dur in g 1922 to 12 5 there �B s a nea� in the ne i� hho ur hood of �1 4 feet an d then ag ain, in l9 S4-56 the peak reach ed �16 feet . We see there '''e have t> .·ro penl<s in 44 yea rs , I.·Jl:lic h wou ld na turally giv e you a much lo we r loss ra tio than �aki ng the fig ur es of the ' im med iat ely pa st th ree yea rs or so .

It is in te rer,tin g to no te th:1 t , dur ing th<t som e peri od , tl lere v.rere t•, IO peri od s of re lat iv el y lo w \·Jate r , 1932 to '3 3, CJ.nd ag ,'lin in 19 40 to '4 5, at �.ovhi.c h ti me th e 'r'"' te r drop ped to "1. opr o:xim "ltely the sam e le vel in each cC J.s e , �10� feet . So , fro � even this v�� 7 buoe rf icial ex planat ion, Vr . Speake r, on e can see th� t a se ar ch ing cost be nefit st udy mu st con sider an d eval uate man y co mn lic lte d .'.1.nd in t e rw oven ele me nt s before a tr ue assess men t of all th at is in volved can be obt ai ne d . It see n1s to me , l<r .

Spea l?er, if my memo ry se rve s me co rr ectly , that duri ng the las t se s sion of the 24th le� is latu re , the 0r ese nt Firs t l'in iste r , then the Le ad er of the Op po sit io n, uo in t ed to the fact that such a study , a cost be nefit st ud y, sh ould have be en in cluc Je d in the orig in al te rm s of refer en ce gi ven the La�e Boar d an d poin t ed out thtt del ays m� ght re sult , due to the lac k of such a cost benefit prov is ion in the ter ms of referen ce .

How ever , as tl1 e Ho no urable First Jvlin i st er ha s poi nte d out , si nc e ta 1d nr: office this f'-;ove rn me nt ha s lost littl e or no ti me in takin g actio n. Such a cost be nefit study vvas ordered directly it wa s foun d th at Ott awa cons idered the fa ct s, qu it e rig htl y I beli eve , give n in this report , as in suf ficien t an d con clusive evidence that the pr oje ct sho uld be pr oc eeded wi th wi th out a fu rther st udy and the go vernm e nt ordered such a st udy upo n re ceivin g that in for mation. So it mu st be re alized , �Ir .

Spe aker , th at an y del ay which ma y ha ve oc cur red , ce .::'ta in ly can not be laid at the door of the Dr esen t to': Overn men t . Fow , as the Ho nou ra ble the Firs t Mini st er has in for med us , th j s study is we ll un der way an d should be av ail nhle wi thin a very short su ace of ti me . In vie w of all thi s, �r .

Speak er , an d be ca use I beli eve , in the lig ht of th is in fo rmat ion, the res ol ut ion is mi sle adi ng I wo uld li ke to pron a se the fo ll ow in g am e ndm e nt : I beg to move , ' sec on ded by the ho noura ble member fo r Ru pert sl an d , th at all the wo rds follo wi np the firs t narag ra- oh , en din g "a pr act ical pro ject an d" be delet ed and the fol lo wi ng sub st itu t ed : "w hereas the pr evious Prov in ci al gove rnrn .ent failed to in c lud e a cos t ben ef it stu dy in the ter ms of reference , an d �,vhereas the fin an cial sur vey in c lud ed in the reuort ha s not been acc en t ed as a co st ben efit stu dy by the federal rep resen ta tiv es on th e La kes Wi nni peg an d Ma nit oba Roard , th eref ore be it resol verl., th at in 22

the ·o pin ion of th is Hous e, the Gove rnment of 1'-Tanitob a should be co mmen ded for havi ng in iti at ed a cos t ben efit survey of it s own , an d for it s an nounc ed in ten tio n. to give con si de rat ion to th e advi sability of an early st art on the Fairford Ri ver co ntrol dam proj ec t" . HR . SP EAKE R: It ha s bee n moved by the hon ourabl e member for Bran don, sec on ded by the ho nourable member for Rup ert slan d, th at all the wo rds follo wi ng the first parag raph en din g, 11 a pract ica l pro ject an d" be de leted an d th e follo wi ng sub st it ut ed :.

"Vfuereas the previo us provi nc ial governme nt fa iled to in cl ude a cost ben efit study in the te rms of referen ce , an d

whereas the fin an c ial survey in cl ud ed in the re port ha s not been acc ept ed as a cost ben ef it st udy by th e feder al re pre s en ta ti v�s on Lak e Wi nnip eg an d Ma ni to ba Board , th erefor� be it resol ved , th at in 1 the opin ion of the Ho use , th e Go vernment of Manit ob a be co rnmende d for havi ng inst it ut ed a cos t ben ef it surve y of its own, an d for it s an nou nc ed in te nt ion to give co nsider at ion to th e advi P.ab ility of an early start on the Fair ford River con tr ol dam pro ject" . Are you ready for th e qu es ti on ? MR ·. GREENLAY : Mr . Sp eaker , as the amendment deals

part ic ularly with the qu es ti on of a 9 os t ben efit study , but is so closely re lated with th e matte r of th e cost , which ta ke s in the Fairford Dam, I would like to sp eak a litt le ti me with reg ard to th e whole matter of con trol on Lake �1Ianit oba , whic h I thin k is in volved in the cos t ben efit stu dy . Mr .

Spea ker , I don't know how many of the ho nourabl e members th at live close to Lak e Man it oba an d know the fluc tuat ion s wh ich occ ur th ere , an d the situ ation th at occ urs aroun d th e Lake , an d the affect th at the lake has on th e immedi ate su rroundi ng area wi th reg ard to cro ps.

Now, it is the ge neral opin ion in th e Po rtag e la Prai rie area , an d in the area surroun din g th e southern end of La ke :/l.'la nit oba , th at the fact that th at body pf water is located th ere , does mate rially af fect th e mois ture con dition s over a· la rge area of the Por tag e Plain s an d th erefore , it is essen ti al , an d very importan t , th at th e lake be main tain ed . Mr •.

Speaker , I thin k it is .well th at there shou ld be so me area in whi ch it should be main tain ed , th at is an upper le ve l an d a lo wer le vel , po ss ibly 813 , 811 to 813 is cor rect , so mewhere in that order . An d I thin k th at on e of the thin 17s th at is importan t , of cou rse , is the con tr ol on the out let .f rom th e lake . An d , Mr .

Speak er, I remember a few years ag o , I spoke a litt le bit on thi s the ot her day , but I remember a fe w years a!2:0 when there was just a tr i ck le of wat er goi ng out to Fa i rfnrd an d th e lake was st ill go in P: do 1•m about ·a half an in ch a day , durin g th e summer months . Now , Mr . Sp eak er , it wa sn 't the water th at was runni ng out , it wa s. ev apo rat ion an d lack of in flm •r . Now, Mr .

Speaker , I th i� k th at before we get in to a que stion of cost of a dam at Fair ford , an d before the y start to con struct a new dam at Fairford , I thin k the y should look at , an d th is sort of follo ws alo ng the lin e of the reason in g of the .hon ourabl e member fnr Bra ndon wh en he wa s buying tha t new hat an d maybe had to ge t a new co at to go with it , 23

MR. GREE NLAY (C on tin ue

d) or a ha irdo to pnt the hat on, Mr . Speak er , I thi nk that the most import an t thi ng is how are we go in g to get so me more water in to La ke Man itoba? Beca use I submit to you , Sir , th at a con tr ol dam at the ou tlet on the Fair for d River is n't worth the name of it if there 's no wate r c0 mes into the lake .

I thin k the str ucture that is th ere , while it pretty well out li ved it s us efuln ess , an d is de t eri orat ed qu ite bad) y, un less you can .R:et more wate r to co me in to Lake Ma nitoba , I ass ure you th at an y ki nd of a structure you put over th e Fai rford , is n' t anv good there at all .

An d it see ms to me th at if you will ta ke th is Lake Wi nnipeg an d Ha nit oba Report an d con sid er it car ef ul ly, you will go th rough to the la tter stag es of it , when they st art to deal , an d thi s is where you 'l l fin d the in format ion, when they star t to deal with the matte r of the stor age for power de velop ment an d the use of Lake Winn ipeg osis , Ce dar La ke an d Lak e Ma ni to ba for st orage purpo se s , for wat er , for powe r develoo ment ; I thin k there is where the people' who are con siderin g th is whole pro je ct should lo ok � Now I th in k th at it is in t imated at leas t in th is report an d while that may no t be made up bv ex pert s co mplet el y in the power develop ment field , an d it may no t be just. ex actly cor rect , it se ems, to be int imate d in this report th at for the over-all po vrer dev e lop ment picture on Lake Wi nniPeg - be tween Lake Manit oba an d Lake Winni peg an d in th at whole area th at the wav th at you can get the best st orag e an d the moRt -pow er develop ment is by a chan nel from Ce dar Lake to Lake �IITinnioeg osis , Wi nni Peg osis to :tv[a nit oba , Ma nito ba to La ke vH nni pe g.

An d it se ems to me, Mr . Speaker , th at th is is th e essen tial thin g th at they sh ould look at in tryinf'.' to con trol the wat ers of Lake Man it oba , an d before you can con trol the m you 'v e got to get the m in the re . Now, th ere is a reference to the diver sion from the Assin ibo in e River but I submit , Mr . Speak er , th at th at ag ain is somethin g which is , in my opi nion, is very , a verv minor ad va nta ge .

The on ly ti me th1.t you will be gett in g wate r out , co uld be abl e to get wate r out of the Assin ibo in e River in to Lake Man it oba you probably don 't want it th ere an d the ti me th at you warit to get wat er to Lake �:Ta nitoba , as at the oresen t t: tme, there is n't an v too much wate r co minP: do wn the Assin ib oin e River an d if you st art ed to take so me of it out you would rea lly be in tro ub le . Mr .

Speak er , it see ms to me th at we ha ve go t to look , an d I thi nk th is is tre mendously import an t with regard to the larg e area , I wouldn 't beg in to say wh ere the boun drie s of that area sh ould be , surroun din g Lak e Ma nitob a . vve have got to look at ge ttin g more wat er in an d if you'l l take your , if you' l l ta ke your Lake Manit oba '1/vater Board Report an d look at so me of th e sch edules which are atta ched tn it , you wi ll see th at if you loo k at the Assin ib oin e River run- off area it 's pret ty smal l, pretty smAll, Mr .

Speaker , co mpared to the r11 n-off area whic h co mes do wn the Sask at chew an River . I thin k th at 's the thi ng that we have got to look to is ge ttin g wat er from an area al t ernate to the on e immediat ely ad jacen t to La ke Man itoba . Ce rtai nly we have the run- off from the Ri din g :t'vioun tain s an d the Duc k Moun tain s an d so on but , Mr . Speak er , th ose , th ose are pretty close an d there 's a rel at ive small area \.vhich is bei ng drai ned an d if you 24

MR. GREE NLAY (c ontin ued ) do n' t get the mois tu re con di tion s in thAt particularly small area you do n 't get th at water in to Lake Ma ntto ha . But I th in k, t-1r . Spea ke r, that th e importan t th in g is an d I th i nk the Go vernment should look at thi s very ca refully an d try an d ta ke so me action, to see if thi s other cha nne l ca n not be made beca use in that way you can have a so urce of wat er avai l;: l ble which wi ll keeP Lake Wi nnipeg o sis UP , which w:i 11 keep LakE� t-.·lanit oba un and will ev entually f:et in to Lake Wi nniPeg wh,:!re it wa s go in g anyway .

In the report you wi ll see th ey con si der th at probRbly tha t is the way you can get th e best po ,,re r devel opment is bv usin g all tho se storag e fa ci lities an d Lake Winn ipeg in order to pro cuc e th e power on the Nel son River .

No w you 'v e got all tho se loca t ion s an d I th in k th at if you'l l st udy th is caref ul ly, st udy the maPs th at go with it , the run off are as , th e area of Lake Wi nniPeg ; the area of Lake Manit oba ; an d the area of Lake Winni pe gos is, you wi ll se e that th at is the way that you can make th e most use , I thin k is the proper te rm, make the most use of the wat er which is co ming dow n the Sa skat c hewan River .

An d, I would urge th at th e Go vernment would do everythin g they po ssi bly can to ha ve thi s pa rti cular poin t in ve stig at ed , beca use at the pres en t ti me the Lake is do wn , I thi nk, ab out eig ht el even or probably a li ttle below th at an d, at the pre sen t ti me, I would exPec t that th ere is a ve ry, very smRll amount of wate r go i ng out to the Fai rfo rd River because of the le vel of the La l <e at the presen t ti me.

So that , I thin k, there 's a lake , we can' t af ford to let th at Lake go to o lo w an rl. we 'v e got to look to a so urce of wate r which will keep it UP so mewhere betw een th ose bvo lev els . Gran t ed the pro ject at Fa irford has to be two fo ld ; the pro ject ha s to prmride for a larg er ont let in ti mes when the Lak e is co mirre; up an d it also ha s to prov ide for a go od so und dam wh ich will ho ld it back when the lake is lm ,r . At th e presen t ti me, it won 't go dow n much lo we.r by. rea son of run- off but it will go down by reason of evaporat ion . No 'lll r, Mr .

Speake r, I don 't know th at if I have very much to add to that at the pres en t ti me but I do warit to ag ain st ress th e importan ce of what I con sider to be the importan ce of main tain in g the lake , no t only con tr oll in g, but maintain in g it an d if you sp eak to gen tle men who have lived on the lake an d paid att en tion to th e lak e over many year s, an d I refer

part i cul arly to Doctor Ca dham, Sen ior , who ha s ma de what you might call a lifeti me study of Lake Man it oha . He can ta ke you to pl ace s in th at lake where he says that the mpth ha s chan ged somet hin g lik e five an d si x feet in the las t , oh, the last fif te en, twe nt y years . It see ms th at th e botto m of the lake is fillin g up an d it 's get tin g sh allo wer . Th at 's what the fi sher men te ll us . It seems to me, }1r .

S'peak er , that we have to be pretty car ef ul an d we shou ld tak e so me def in ite action to see th at the lak e is main tai ned an d no t , th e con trol is all rig ht , but I thi nk that th e firs t thin g we 'v e got to be sure of is th at we have a lake . An d , I thi nk thi s besides bein g of ag ri cultural value an d I thin k it is of con sid era ble aP:ricultural value , to th at cen tr al are a , it would have a

part ic ular value as �"ell for the fis hin g in du stry both on Lake \.llinn ipeg osis an d Lake t-.·�a nit oba . 25

W�. GREENLAY (C ont in ued ) Now th e�e are pe cul iar th in gs hap pen in the fishin g in du stry fi shin g .. wi th reg ard to th e fish .. ;,ve ha d, at on e ti me , a re por t from a very ca pab le biologist wh o sai d that we would never have an y mo re pickerel fi shin g on Lake Man it oba . He said it 's turned in to a sa uger lc =d:-e . You wo n 1 t get anyt hin g on ly sa ug ers an d mA yb e a fe w perch an d that 's all the re 11 1 be there .

But wh ether he ha dn 't been in to uch wi th th e rig ht , ri ght aut horit ies , rig ht fi sh, or wh at ever it wns, wit hin tw o years they we re get tin g pickerel an d no muger an d he probably had rea son to belie ve th at thi s wa s go ing to co me about in vi ew of the ev ide nce of the in crea se of s auge rs . Rut , on e of the other thin gs that I thin k is import an t ,�rith Lake Ma nit oba wi th reg ard to fi shi ng is th is, an d th is is so methin g wh ich I know hA s occ urred , an d I th in k it ties in wi th the ma in ten an c e of the lake at a oart icular lev el .

Some few years ag o you co uld go in to the nmrsh ad join in g the so uth en d of Lake Manitoba , in the sp rin g, an d you would fin d sch o ols , l� rge sc hoo ls all over ' that ma rsh of .. par don ? .. lot s of wate r th ere , quite a bit of vrat er there but you foun d th e pickerel an d the jack co mi ng in th ere to spaw n . Now, Mr . Chair ma n, I'v e arg ued , had an arg ument wi th biol ogi st s and th ey sh ould know mo re thn n I do about it but it al ·ways see ms to me th at ol d mo ther na ture sort of fig ured thin gs out a lon g while before the biolog ists ca me alon g. .

An rl., why did th ey say th A.t those fish woul d go in there an d would spa wn an d th at the ... would no t get out . Mr . Speaker , I thin k the impo rta nt thin g ag ain to off- set th at is probably con trol , wh ich w-i 11 keep the wate r at a le vel wh ere there wi ll be access to the lal'e by tl•e . ".. Novl, Mr . Speaker , one of th e th i n:g;s that ha s occ ur re d in the low wate r yea rs ; you would fi nd bush el s an d bushels of eg �c:;s of the spa wn wa shed uo on th e shores of Lal'e JvJanitoba .

Now , it did n't , it never turned in to little fis h so th at it vvas lost co mp::Letely an d I do n' t thi nk there could be an y mo re los t in the ma rsh th An what would be los t there . As I say , I th in k old mo tber natu re had the thin g fig ured out years a{Zo an d tha t the natural place to go wa s to th e mar sh . An d I thin k th at the thin g th at we ne ed to do is have th e level of the la�e con tr oll ed an d see th at th ere is access to the se spa wni ng gr ounds for the. se fish an d I, pe rson al ly, I thin k you wou ld fin d th at the suop lv of :fish would be much bett er in the lake .

Gr anted in th is la st year for so me rea son, (i t must be be cause of a

part ic ula rlv go od , go od ha tc h in g yAar ) th ree or fou r years ag o , the catch of pickerel in Lake Man itoba ha s been very go od . But , I thin k what ne eds to be don e is so me con trol to keeo it at a level wh ere th at can oc cur in each year . Gr ant ed th ere may st ill be disas t ers wi th reg ard to th e hat ch bu t you ca n't probably of f- set the m all . But , Mr .

Sneaker , I ju st want ed to bri ng these thm1 ght s an d these fac ts, I belie ve , to the att en tion of the Ho us e, an d to urge that the Go vern me nt wh ile they ma y be look in g at th e con tr ol of th e out let - for goodn e ss sake ta ke a look at how you 'r e go in g to get so me mo re wate r in to th e lAk e l Beca use , if it stays th e way it iR an d there 's no mo re wat er cor �e s in than wh at is co min g at the presen t ti me for an other year , th at old lak es go in g to be awful low an d th ere 's go in g to be no acc ess to the ma rsh es . Th e ma rgin wi ll be ver� r low.

There wj ll be nothin g on ly mud flat s an d I 26

thin k that would be disas trous to , wi th regard to the effect of th e lake on the surroundi ng area . an d with reg ard to the fis hin g . Now I do n't kno'II'T wh ether I'v e been in order all the ti me or not but I th in k the fact s are all relev an t to the matter un der dis cu ssion an d I want ed to brin g the se

part ic ular po in ts to the att enti on of the House •.• t-1R. SP EAK ER : ••• Ready for the qu estion ? MR. GUT TOID- ISON: Moved by th e ho nourable member for Ethel bert th at the debat e be adjo urned . Jv!R . SPEA KER : It ha s been moved by the hon ou rable meMber for St . Ge org e , se con ded by th e ho nourab le member for Ethelbert Pl ain s that the de bate be adjo urned . Are you ready for the que st ion ? T hose in favou r please say ·"a ye' ' · Tho se op po se d pl ease say "n ay" . In my opi nio n the "a yes" have it an d I dec lare the motion carried . Adjourn MR .

ROBLI N: We hav en' t reach ed the end of th e order �aper this mornin g but we on ly have ten minut es to go an d perh aps the ge ntle men th at are sc heduled to sp eak would rather wait ti ll after lunch rather than get well launched and then have to cut off . So , if it meets v-Jith the approval of the House , I would move , secon ded by th e Ho nourabl e, the Min is te r of Mi ne s and Na tu ral Reso urc es , th at the Ho use do now ad ,journ an d stan d ad jo urned untir 2: 30 this aft ernoon. :t-.:R.

SP EA KER : It 's bee n moved bv the Ho nourab le , the Firs t Min is te r , secon ded bv the Hon ourable Min ister of Mi nes an d Re sourc es that the House do now ad jo urn. Are you ready for the que st ion ? Th os e in favo ur pl ease say "a ye" . Tho se op po se d pl ease sa y "n ay" . In my opin ion the "a ye s" have it an d I de: cl are the motion carried . I decl are that th e House is now ad jo urned an d st an d adj ourned unt il 2: 10 this aft ernoon . 27

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-12a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 12a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	58e978b63f8364916d79a5bb8826e7b565cac102

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