May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 783 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Friday, May 8, 1992 10:00 a.m. Date: 92/05/08 [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: Prayers MR. SPEAKER: Let us pray. O Lord, we give thanks for the bounty of our country and our province: for our land, our resources, and our people. We pledge ourselves to act as good stewards on behalf of all Canadians and all Albertans. Amen. head: Introduction of Visitors MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker and members of the Assembly, I'm pleased to introduce to you His Excellency Sudalto Poerwanto, ambassador of Indonesia. Mr.

Poerwanto was appointed Indonesian ambassador to Canada in 1990 and is making his first official visit to our province. The ambassador has a distinguished diplomatic career in service to his country. He was a director of the GATT, ambassador to Hungary and the United States, and most recently the ambassador served as the Indonesian ambassador to the United Nations. Alberta and Indonesia have an interesting sharing of economic and social interests. Of course, energy and agriculture form the basis of our relationship. Today, Mr.

Speaker, the ambassador will be discussing with members of our government several areas of interest including research, agriculture, industry, as I noted, perhaps over a cup of java, if I can be allowed that aside. The ambassador is accompanied by Mrs. Sabekti, the I ndone- sian consul from Vancouver, and Mrs. Berkel-Ave, the honorary consul here in Alberta. I would ask that the ambassador and his party rise in your gallery, Mr. Speaker, and I'm sure the mem- bers of the Assembly will send to the ambassador a very warm Alberta welcome. head: Tabling Returns and Reports MR. ISLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased today to table the annual report of the Department of Agriculture for the year 1990-91. MR. FJORDBOTTEN: I'd like to table with the Assembly the Canada forest accord, which was recently signed by the forest ministers for federal, provincial, and territorial governments and other members of the Canadian forest community, such as the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association, the Alberta Forest Products Association, the Canadian Wildlife Federation, and the National Aboriginal Forestry Association, to name only a few, Mr. Speaker. This accord sets out the goals and visions of sustainable forestry.

Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet, I'd also like to file with the Assembly the national forest strategy called Sustainable Forests: A Canadian Commitment, which expresses the same visions and goals as the Canada forest accord and outlines strategic directions for all of the Canadian forest community. MR. OLDRING: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to table with the Assembly today the 1990-91 Children's Advocate annual report. MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Career Development and Employment. MR. WEISS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's a pleasure this morning to file four copies of the 1991 annual report of the Alberta Immigration and Settlement Services Advisory Commit- tee, and I should mention that this is on plain paper written in plain language. head: Introduction of Special Guests MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, it's an honour for me to introduce to you 22 students from the Montfort school in Red Deer. They're here with their teacher M. Gaëtan Perron and also a parent Mrs. Glenda Molgat. They're seated in the public gallery. I'd ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR.

SPEAKER: Hon. members, I believe that I have one group in the public gallery from Fairview school in the constituency of Calgary-Egmont. The reason I have to put it that way is that I understand there are over 200 students here this morning from the constituency of Calgary-Egmont, so bear with me. We will introduce one group now, if they happen to be here. Would you please rise and be welcomed by the Assembly. ))))))))))))))))))) MR. SPEAKER: In addition, I know this is not a matter of welcome; this is a matter of congratulations.

We have 31 members of this House who today celebrate their sixth anniversary of being first elected to this Assembly. head: Oral Question Period Hospital Funding MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, on April 14 the Provincial Treasurer said that this government would seek the advice of Albertans on what services should be reduced or ended, yet this morning we learned that the Minister of Health will be telling health care administrators that they will probably have to slash some $240 million from the health care budget over the next three years. Some consultation.

I would suggest that most Albertans would tell them to first slash their handouts to their business friends that cost us millions of dollars. My question is to the Premier. Would the Premier confirm that the Minister of Health is planning to slash approximately $240 million from hospital budgets in the next three years? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, what the Minister of Health is doing is conducting exactly the kind of consultation that the Provincial Treasurer was talking about in the budget presentation. MR. MARTIN: That's certainly the government's idea of consultation: here we go; you're going to lose this money.

That's what they think about it. Mr. Speaker, we all know that difficult decisions have to be made, but the Minister of Health, correctly at the time, I thought, said: we're going to give you two years to plan your budget, 4 percent for this year, 2.5 percent for next year. That was promised in January, the funding levels for the next two years. Now it looks like those promises are going to be broken. My question to the Treasurer is simp ly this: how can hospitals be expected to plan and budget properly when the minister says one thing one month and then comes up with a whole new plan a few months later?

784 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth, and in fact we're working on just a contrary plan. The important note here is that two years ago in the budget we gave the hospitals advanced warning that they would be able to count on minimum grants over a two-year period, and that was put in place to allow the hospitals to improve the efficiency, to apply a performance measurement which ranked their output and the way in which they operated in this province to ensure efficiency for the taxpayer's dollar.

Now, all governments – and I notice Saskatchewan brought down a budget last night – have to plan for the next three- to five- year period in which we have to look at ways in which programs are delivered in this province, ensuring that efficiency and effectiveness are taking place with the taxpayers' dollars, ensuring that we can maintain the same high level of services to the people of Alberta, and maintaining clearly that we all have to be disciplined by less resources. Surely we do not want to get caught in the trap of having to increase taxes to unbelievable levels.

In my mind this kind of future thinking is just what Albertans are calling for, and we, in consultation with the people of Alberta, are working on joint solutions to Alberta's problems. MR. MARTIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is the Treasurer that's run up deficits of over $15 billion talking about efficiency. He's one to talk. Mr. Speaker, the minister talks here in this Assembly about a contrary plan. My question to the Treasurer then: what is that contrary plan? Is it in fact that there will be $240 m illion cut from the hospital budgets over the next three years? 10:10 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, it is this sort of knee-jerk reaction that you expect from the socialists across the way, who have never had to put a business plan in place, who have never had to deal with the complex changes of a dynamic economy where, in fact, we have to look ahead. We have to anticipate the kinds of changes that may be impacting on the kinds of social services that are provided in a very large way by this government in Health and Education and social services. Accordingly, Mr.

Speaker, we would not use the unilateral form of administration that is so typical of the socialists, including the Liberal Party across the way, where you have a top-down direction. What we are doing is seeking advice from the group of clients, the people who are part of the client base and the constituency base, to find joint solutions. Now, how better can you find reasonable solutions among Albertans than to have open discussions, to put the information on the table and seek their advice, the people who deliver the services, as to ways in which we can more efficiently and properly deliver the services?

That's what it's about in government these days, Mr. Speaker. We're in the '90s. The changes are taking place, and we have to adapt accordingly, not like those folks across the opposition way. MR. SPEAKER: Second main question, Leader of the Opposi- tion. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, after the Treasurer loses his seat in the next election, he can get a job as a comedian. I'd like to designate my second question to the Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Strathcona. Bench Insurance Agencies Ltd. MR. CHIVERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the minister of economic development.

The Bench Insurance fraud continues to plague Albertans. The auditor who reviewed the matter has discovered 400 bogus policies with over $2 million in paid premiums and over a million dollars in profits to Bench Insurance. My question is: will the minister please explain how it is that the Alberta Opportunity Company loaned approximately $80,000 to Bench just prior to the commencement of this fraud and the repayment of that loan seems to have been partially as a result of the proceeds of a fraud? MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, as the hon.

Members of this Legislative Assembly are aware, Alberta Opportunity Company is an independent arm of this government whereby they have a board of directors of their own. All those decisions are made without any direction whatsoever from this government. There is funding that is allocated towards Alberta Opportunity Company so that they can involve themselves in the further diversification of this province. When I had my estimates before the House some evenings past, we indicated some 6,000-odd involvements they have had in making sure that our economy is strong within this province.

I should share with the hon. member, too, as it relates to Alberta Opportunity Company's involvement with Bench, that they have taken legal action to support and to recoup their involvements, recognizing that their first obligation is to the taxpayer of the province of Alberta. MR. CHIVERS: Well, perhaps the minister of economic development will enlighten us as to how much is outstanding on the loan made to Bench by the Alberta Opportunity Company? MR. ELZINGA: Mr.

Speaker, I just indicated to the hon. member – and had he been listening to the response, he would have heard – that the Alberta Opportunity Company is an arm's- length organization from the government of the province of Alberta. If the hon. member wishes me to inquire as to the amounts of money outstanding, I'm more than happy to do so. For me to be aware of that is not the case because they are an arm's-length organization.

I'm sure the hon. member, as they have consistently said in this Legislative Assembly, doesn't want us to offer direction to those types of arm's-length organizations so that they can do so strictly on a business decision. I'm more than happy to inquire for the hon. member and get that informa- tion to him. MR. CHIVERS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that the minister of economic development acknowledges that he doesn't know what's going on. My question is to the Premier. We already know that the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs doesn't know what's going on.

Will the Premier now undertake to launch a public review of the regulatory failure in this insurance fraud and let Albertans know what's happening? [some applause] MR. GETTY: I guess the clap was for reading it correctly. That's what happened there. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs has dealt with this matter in the House many times. The Minister of Economic Development and Trade has just offered to provide the information the hon. member wants. Surely if he merely pursues his information from the ministers, they'll provide him with everything he could possibly need. MR.

SPEAKER: Edmonton-Glengarry, on behalf of the Liberal Party.

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 785 Bilingualism MR. DECORE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last year the Premier was an Albertan first; this year the Premier is a Canadian first. Last week the Premier wanted an end to enforced bilingualism; today the Premier accepts official bilingualism. Last year the Premier insisted on the veto; this year the Premier says no veto. At this moment, well, who knows where the Premier stands? Will the Premier explain the difference between official bilingual- ism and enforced bilingualism by defining each for this Assembly? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. leader of the Liberal Party shouldn't be led around by the nose by the media, and then he'd know what was happening. MR. DECORE: Well, I guess when you don't know where you stand, you make it fuzzier even still. Mr. Speaker, just so that Albertans are clear, I'd like the Premier to tell this Assembly and Albertans what laws and what provisions should be scrapped nationally so that we can get rid of what he calls enforced bilingualism. MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member, as all members, has received a copy of the speech in which I outlined my thoughts on these matters, and nothing has changed. What I would say again to him is that I think the Official Languages Act, which tends to be the way the federal government puts in place the policy on bilingualism, needs a total review, and probably we could get along without it. Now, that isn't just my point of view, because while you've endorsed bilingualism, most Canadians feel very strongly that the applicati on of the policy is bringing what otherwise is a pretty good policy into disrepute.

I believe that, and I believe that because Albertans have told me that. That is not being against the policy of bilingualism. A $26 million survey of Canadians, the Spicer report, Mr. Speaker, also comments on this. Mr. Spicer was the former language commissioner, so in some ways it gives him an even greater insight.

If the members will just take a moment, because they seem concerned about this, here are his findings: a some- times mechanical, overzealous, and unreasonably costly approach to the policy of bilingualism has led to decisions that have brought it into disrepute; excessive designation of bilingual jobs and a narrow, legalistic approach are sapping a principle which would otherwise be welcomed by Canadians as a part of our basic identity. That's the position. MR. DECORE: Well, we're getting this drawn out slowly now. The Premier is showing his colours for the first time, and I'm glad to see exactly where he stands.

Senate Reform MR. DECORE: My last question to the Premier is this. The Premier appeared on a talk-back program recently and indicated that he was prepared to look at the issue of equality insofar as triple E is concerned. Now, we've seen the terrific changes in the Premier's position on many issues. I wonder why he's changing his position now on triple E. Speaker's Ruling Restrictions on Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry, hon. Premier. It's a different line of question entirely. The Chair recognizes Rocky Mountain House. [interjections] Rocky Mountain House. Thank you.

Provincial-Municipal Premier's Council MR. LUND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A number of years ago our Premier established the much appreciated committee of . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. [interjection] Order. I'm sorry, hon. Premier. I didn't hear the question because of the uproar in a certain quarter of the House. Rocky Mountain House, would you be good enough to ask it again. 10:20 MR. LUND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A number of years ago our Premier established a much appreciated committee comprised of municipal and school leaders from ar ound the province.

We know that there are many very tough issues facing both the municipalities and school boards around the province. Hopefully this committee, chaired by the Premier, is able to enhance the partnership and co-operation that we are so interested in. I understand that yesterday there was another of these meetings. Could the Premier please tell us whether in fact he was satisfied with the progress that was made yesterday? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, this is the Provincial-Municipal Premier's Council.

It is designed to bring the government together with leaders in munici pal governments so that we can work together in a co-operative way in order to deal with problems which face the citizens of Alberta, which both levels of government deal with. I should mention, Mr. Speaker, that at the meeting yesterday, a three-hour meeting and a very good meeting, we had representa- tives of the Rural & Improvement Districts Association, the Alberta Urban Municipalities Association, the Alberta School Boards Association, and the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties.

Now, to show the importance that the government places on this matter, along with myself, who was chairing the meeting, we had the Minister of Health, the Minister of Economic Development and Trade, the Provincial Treasurer, the Minister of the Environment, and the Associate Minister of Agriculture, responsible for rural development. We dealt with a wide variety of subjects that I think laid the groundwork here for us working together, municipal governments and the provincial government, to deliver the services that Albertans expect. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, Rocky Mountain House, followed by West Y ellowhead.

MR. LUND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sure that one of the topics that would have been discussed yesterday is the fiscal situation, both as it relates to the province and the municipalities. Could the Premier update us on exactly what transpired in that area? [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order. [interjections] Order. MR. GETTY: It's a shame, Mr . Speaker, that school students here would be able to watch the situation where the Liberal Party and their leader makes fun of such a discussion on a very important matter between municipal and provincial governments. Mr.

Speaker, the area of provincial/municipal financing is obviously a very important one, b ecause with scarce resources these days we still are attempting to provide services in the most efficient way. Now, we have a special follow-up meeting set for

786 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 June 17 to deal more specifically with the new thinking on municipal/provincial funding. I would say that the key thing that came from this meeting was a realization that we are dealing with scarce resources. Y ou can't tax people; they feel they have provided sufficient resources. Y ou can't increase taxes. Our government is cutting taxes. So, Mr. Speaker, what we are trying to do is identify exactly what responsibility each level of government has and then see that the resources necessary to carry out those responsibilities are made available. That will be the key.

I found that the municipal leaders are very, very much aligned with the provincial govern- ment in this regard, and I'm looking forward to working with them. Timber Quota in Peers Area MR. DOYLE: Y esterday, Mr. Speaker, a major timber quota in the Peers area was retendered by the receivers of a bankrupt sawmill in the town of Peers. It is my understanding that four bids were submitted, three of which were high enough to pay off the secured creditors, but only one guarantees manufacturing jobs in the Peers area.

Given that the minister has stated that an accepted bid must include an employment program for the people of the Peers area, can the minister explain whether such an employment plan includes not only woodland jobs but also manufacturing jobs for the people of the Peers area? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is correct. There was a quota sale held yesterday, and I was informed last night that the successful bidder at this point is Weyerhaeuser. I have not seen the commitments that were made by that company or others at this point. I expect I'll have a chance to look at them next week and report. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplementary, West Y ellowhead. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that there are at least 19 timber quotas with local manufacturing conditions attached, and a precedence was set by the removal of c ondition 12. It threatens not only Peers but also many other communities in Alberta.

Given that the people of Peers were given misleading information when some of them signed the original petition supporting the removal of the local manufacturing condition, will the minister and his department initiate a meeting with the people of the Peers area to determine whether they want the manufactur- ing jobs to stay in the community or whether they want those jobs exported to another area? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for West Y ellowhead can't be on all sides of the issue here. It was made very clear in the community.

In fact, the community wanted the condition on, and then there was a petition saying that they wanted the condition off, and then there was another petition saying that they wanted it on. Mr. Speaker, I have said clearly that the government doesn't make the decision on who receives the quota. That is made by the receiver. The receiver makes that decision, and the receiver in making that decision has been told clearly that the jobs for the Peers area are an important part of whether the quota would actually be assigned or not.

Next week I will receive that information, and when I do, I'll report to the House. [interjec- tion] MR. SPEAKER: Is this a private conversation, Edmonton- Kingsway, or just carried away by the moment? Westlock-Sturgeon, please. Lottery Corporation Job Applications MR. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First, thank you for the kind note you put on my desk for the sixth anniversary. It's been six interesting years. This is to the Premier.

Y esterday the cabinet minister for lotteries admitted in this House that his office was acting as a repository or clearinghouse for job applications for a firm that he had let a printing contract out to. Very simply, Mr. Speaker, does the Premier condone this practice? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not familiar with the incident the hon. member is referring to, so I'll look at it. MR. TA YLOR: Well, Mr. Speaker, I hope he'll take the opportunity to read up on it. It's in Hansard, and if you don't read, it's even on TV. I will go a step further, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Premier accept job applications in his office for lottery fund headquarters jobs in Stettler? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I was going to think of a Liberal joke, but it occurred to me that they're all elected, in the Legisla- ture. Unemployment MRS. MIROSH: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to acknowledge on behalf of the class of '86 your kind memory of our anniver- sary. It has been a tough six years. In Calgary recently we've heard a bout the number of layoffs with regards to Petro-Canada. Just to correct the Member for Westlock-Sturgeon, it's not 12,000 jobs but 1,200.

It's still a significant amount of people who are concerned about where they would go for employment. They're feeling doom and gloom at this time. I would like to ask the Minister of Career Development and Employment if he could update us on these unemployment figures, as recently as last month? 10:30 MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to advise the Assembly that last month Alberta's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate decreased by some six-tenths of a percentage point, from 9.6 to 9 percent.

It's interesting to note that these rates now remain the second lowest in Canada behind those in Saskatchewan, where I would anticipate there will be dramatic changes as a result of the recent budget announcements. Actual employment in Alberta as well was up by some 2,100 in April, and it is very encouraging to note that more Albertans were able to find full-time employ- ment. I should also point out, while I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, because it relates to the question asked by the hon. member and her particular interest in Calgary, that Calgary's unemployment rate also dropped by the same amount as Edmonton, by some two- tenths of a percent, from 10.8 to 10.6 percent. These are very encouraging trends. As a result of some of the layoffs that have occurred in the energy sector in Calgary, which we regret, I'm also pleased to note that many of those have been handled through attrition and some very attractive and generous severance pack- ages. It doesn't mean that we're satisfied and accept these.

We're trying to do whatever we can in the way of encouragement, and we'll assist those in all areas that we can. MRS. MIROSH: Mr. Speaker, our Treasurer announced recently the budget relating to our economy and how these people are able to get jobs and how we are creating jobs for these people who are

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 787 now unemployed. Albertans do feel that there is doom and gloom and are feeling a loss of confidence in our economy and in Alberta. I wonder if the Treasurer could outline to the Assembly how these strategies in the recent budget ann ouncement would help these unemployment figures and help these people back to the jobs. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, that is a very important policy question. I would like to make two general points on this issue. First of all, there's no doubt that Alberta has experienced one of the lowest unemployment rates for at least the last two years.

That doesn't happen by accident, given the fact that the rest of Canada has suffered a recession, and Alberta to some extent has suffered a slowdown as a result of the lack of confidence that existed across Canada. So how do you instill confidence, Mr. Speaker? There are several ways you can do that. The first thing you must do is ensure that those people in Albe rta believe that their future is secure and have access to education in particular and, sec ondly, find that their income is protected, that it's not grabbed back by the government through high taxation.

In Alberta we have maintained that particular objective. We do not have a sales tax in this province, and we have the lowest personal income tax of any province in Canada. As a result, in terms of the fundamental economic equation, the dollars in people's hands are being spent for their purposes. Secondly, an important point: investment. The one way that you can generate jobs and generate economic growth and secure your future, as Alberta has done, is to attract investment in this province. Investment is flowing at high levels to our province.

People from all over the world know that the environment is clear here. Y ou are welcome, you're not taxed, and you have a skilled work force that you can use. That's how . . . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. [interjection] Thank you. Edmonton-Jasper Place, followed by Edmonton-Whitemud. Tire Disposal MR. McINNIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the hon. Premier. On January 16 the government of Alberta announced that it accepted the recommendations of Alberta Environment's Ministerial Advisory Committee on the Tire Project, which report the government refuses to this day to make public.

It also announced on that date that it had a ccepted proposals from Environmental Rubber Products of Edmonton to recycle 1.3 million tires annually and the Alan Marketing Group of Okotoks to recycle 1.2 million tires. The following month, in February, the Premier announced he was reviewing that decision. March and April went by, and finally on May 6 the Premier made another announcement, the day after the Member for Three Hills quit, that he was having another review, this time into incineration and pyrolysis.

Will the Premier explain whether he's actually doing any reviewing, or is he just trying to give some false hope to the people of Trochu for a by-election? MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker, and I don't know why the hon. member would take that kind of an angle on something like this. The disposal of tires is an important matter in our province. We have gone through a process of evaluating how this problem might be dealt with. We interviewed through a review process a lot of people and made a decision on two of them.

As a result of my review, it appeared that we hadn't put enough emphasis – and this was working with the Minister of the Environment – on the matter of tire disposal by either pyrolysis or incineration and that those who had advocated that process should be talked to again to see whether one of them might be adequate to help in tire disposal. That's what's happening. It's just something that we're doing to hopefully benefit the people of Alberta. MR. McINNIS: Mr. Speaker, that is a serious allegation against the members of the advisory committee whose report he refuses to make public.

I'd like to ask a very specific question. There are contracts now awarded, according to the January 16 statement, for the full supply of 2.5 million tires: 1.3 million in Edmonton, 1.2 million in Okotoks. The Premier's statement on Wednesday emphasized – and this is a direct quote – that “the results of the review will not affect the selection of the two proposals from the initial evaluation process.” Now, how can he have it both ways? Where is he going to get these tires from? Palm Springs? Where? MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it was quite implicit in the call for proposals that there was no guarantee of tires to anyone. Y es, the proponents said that they needed 1.3 million and 1.2 million tires. There was no guarantee and there never has been a guarantee at any time of a tire stock. Mr. Speaker, relative to the hon. member's allegation that there was something sinister about this, I refer to the Calgary Herald of Friday, May 1, 1992. They repeated their story a week later, and I quote: Conservative MLA Connie Osterman said Thursday . . .

This is last week. . . . the premier wants an “outside expert” to re-evaluate some of the technical processes rejected by cabinet earlier this year before it approved two rubber recyclers as official recipients of the province's mountain of scrap tires. Clearly, Mrs. Osterman, who resigned almost five or six days later, was clearly and totally aware of the situation, and the hon. member knows it. What he's trying to do is hoodwink the House. Speaker's Ruling Parliamentary Language MR. SPEAKER: There are no hoods in this House, whatever your word was.

Hon. minister, I wonder if you'd be good enough to withdraw the use of the phrase “hoodwink,” please. MR. KLEIN: Hoodwink? Y es. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Whitemud. Education Funding MR. WICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The $300 million money grab from the Alberta Municipal Financing Corporation and the subsequent transfer of $200 million back to the municipal- ities totally ignored the school boards' participation as sharehold- ers to the tune of $75 million.

To the Provincial Treasurer: how does the Provincial Treasurer intend to compensate the school boards for those dollars that they lost in this budget manoeuvre? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, to understand this, you have to understand that to the province of Alberta further education, through its extensive programs, is a high priority. In particular, on the capital side of education it does the following. First of all, we have a very extensive capital works program, which builds schools across this province, and we have maintained that over the last decade so that the investment in education, the infrastructure

788 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 side, is very, very complete and is obviously adapting to the needs of the future. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, in recognition of the building of schools, and here is the key point, the province covers 100 percent of debenture costs of approved school construction costs. Therefore, the debt of the schools for 100 percent of the approved costs is covered by the province itself. MR. TA YLOR: Y ou still stole $75 million. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Whitemud, not Westlock-Sturgeon. MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the minister responsible for Education.

What has the minister done to convince his colleagues to correct this injustice on behalf of the school boards he represents? 10:40 MR. DINNING: Well, Mr. Speaker, let's make it perfectly clear. This is the Minister of Education of students, not the minister of school boards. What we have done is that the Provincial Treasurer in his Budget Address acknowledged that we will continue with the $700 million five-year plan to help school boards build new schools and upgrade and modernize existing schools. That, on a per capita, on a per student basis, is the largest school investment capital program in this country.

MR. WICKMAN: Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Redwater-Andrew. Drought Assistance MR. ZARUSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is to the Minister of the Environment. Given the dry conditions in the northeast area of Alberta – and Redwater-Andrew is no exception. I know that the county of Thorhild and the village of Thorhild have had severe water shortages, and I know that the village of Thorhild has approached the Department of the Environment for assistance. My question is: would the minister please advise what is being done to address this problem? MR.

KLEIN: As in the rest of the province there is a water shortage basically throughout the northeast part of the province and certainly throughout southern Alberta and north-central Alberta. With respect to Thorhild, we're laying about 12 miles of temporary pipe from the Redwater River. It's going to be pumped into the village of Thorhild, and we're going to fill the reservoir. After the reservoir is filled, we will probably remove that pipe. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary. MR. ZARUSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously this water shortage has also affected the landowners in the area as well as the two municipalities.

My question to the minister is: what is the longer term solution to th is? Also, how can the farmers benefit from this pumping program? MR. KLEIN: The longer term solution is rain and moisture and, I guess, God. And maybe John McInnis. Who knows? MR. TA YLOR: Y ou can tell he's from Calgary; he uses his head. MR. KLEIN: Right. And maybe Nick Taylor. The longer term solution, of course, is rain, but what we will do is leave that pipe there. The hierarchy of water use, of course, is people first, you know, to get the water to the people.

Then if there is enough water and we are not in danger of depleting the Redwater River, we'll leave that pipe there and start to fill the dugouts. MR. SPEAKER: Edmonton-Avonmore. Supports for Immigrant Women MS M. LAING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are to the minister responsible for Family and Social Services. A recent report on supports for independence by the advisory council indicates that immigrant women are unable to access the services and the support they need.

For example, social workers use voice mail answering machines to take calls from clients, but women with limited English skills cannot use them. The lack of direct contact with workers along with a lack of translators leads to a painful misunderstanding and unwarranted delays or denial of services. Will the minister no w commit to ensuring that immi- grant women are not denied services and benefits or are not forced to stay in abusive relationships because of the barriers to communication as reported? MR. OLDRING: Mr. Speaker, we'll continue to do all we can to break down those barriers.

Obviously, there are some very specific and unique circumstances that require specific and unique solutions. We constantly look for those solutions, and we'll continue to do that. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary. MS M. LAING: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, the report further states that some workers, through threat of denial of benefits, force immigrant women to go against their cultural imperatives by, for example, forcing them to work with men or changing their dress. These women risk being ostracized by their cultural support groups, and they risk being abused in their own homes.

Will the minister now commit that his department's workers will be directed and trained to be sensitive to and supportive of the cultural realities faced by immigrant women? MR. OLDRING: Again, Mr. Speaker, the department and the workers themselves do all they can to make sure that they're culturally sensitive. There are adjustments that need to be made within the Department of Family and Social Services but also by the new immigrants who come to our country. MR. SPEAKER: Stony Plain, followed by Calgary-McKnight. Education for Hearing Impaired Children MR. WOLOSHYN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Alberta Education is well on its way to forcing the integration of students, regardless of need, onto the school boards, but these boards have insufficient support from the government to properly serve students with a broad range of individual needs including those from the deaf culture. My question to the Minister of Education is simply this: will the minister set up a screening committee dominated by members of the deaf culture and hopefully include the person who holds the deaf studies Chair at the University of Alberta to ensure that only deaf children who are able and willing to adapt are

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 789 enrolled in mainstream schools? Currently the method of placement does not go to the benefit of deaf children. MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, all school boards have a responsi- bility to meet the needs of all students: deaf students, students with physical and emotional and mental disabilities, as well as all the other students in the school system.

The provincial govern- ment provides funding well in excess of a hundred million dollars in this coming year for the special education of children over and above the basic foundation grant, which is over and above language grants, vocational grants, and a series of other grants. One method by which school boards may choose to educate their deaf children is through the School for the Deaf.

We operate that school in Edmonton – it's recognized as one of the finest in the country – and we will continue to do so, but school boards will be able to have access to the School for the Deaf by paying through a tuition agreement for access for their students to the School for the Deaf. MR. WOLOSHYN: As can be expected, Mr. Speaker, the minister is not willing to accept s ound advice on the placement. I'm glad to hear that he has made a commitment to keep the School for the Deaf open, and I would hope that he reiterates that to the Assembly.

Also, I'd like him to make the commitment that the school will be encouraged to increase its enrollment in order to provide a viable alternative for deaf students, at least in the Edmonton area. MR. DINNING: Well, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member knows full well from his experience as a professional teacher that the strides that Alberta schools have made in the delivery of special educa- tion services to children and their families over the last 10 years are really miraculous.

I have to say to school boards and teachers and principals and to all throughout the system that I have to applaud the tremendous strides that we have taken. I can commit, Mr.

Speaker, that while there is a serious demand for special education services for the deaf through the School for the Deaf, that school will be there, but let's recognize that as that expertise grows in each community, including Edmonton, and the ability of school boards to meet those needs of those kids and their families in their own home communities, then I encourage school boards to be able to do that, to develop those programs more so that those kids can stay at home and live in their own community, which many of them want to do. While there is the demand, those services will be provided. MR.

SPEAKER: Calgary-McKnight. 10:50 English as a Second Language MRS. GAGNON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In announcing Immigration Week last Friday, the government professed its commitment to allow immigrants an equal opportunity to partici- pate fully in our society. Accessible language programs for new adult Albertans are a necessary component in this strategy. An interdepartmental review committee report prepared in November of 1990 identified a serious backlog in adult ESL as a result of funding shortfalls and changing immigration patterns. My question is to the Minister of Advanced Education.

When will the minister deal with this long-standing need? MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, we're well aware of the very great interest in the additional requirements for spaces in the program of English as a Second Language. As the hon. member is aware, the Department of Education and the Minister of Career Develop- ment and Employment and myself as well as the Minister of Family and Social Services have been dealing with this whole question of: how do you offer sufficient services to immigrants coming in, when English as a Second Language is a primary requirement?

I think, if one looks at the record, a record number of immigrants are now being trained. There is much more to do, and that's an ongoing concern with the government. MRS. GAGNON: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for that answer. I would like to ask him how his government is fitting into the federal government's new immigrant language training policy? What is our plan to fit into that federal initiative? MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, that question, I think, would be properly addressed to the hon. Minister of CD and E.

I would just point out that the government of Canada is, I think, being quite fair with not only its initiatives but also its funding. The question now remains, I think, as to how one deals with this unreasonable increase in the number of immigrants, specifically to the province of Alberta, which is disproportionate to other provinces. MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, if I may, briefly. MR. SPEAKER: Very briefly. MR. WEISS: We're just in the position of negotiating with the federal government as to the amount of dollars that would flow through to the province of Alberta. Those discussions have not been completed.

It's a very valuable question, and I recognize and appreciate the representation made. We hope to be success- ful, to have more dollars to jointly assist in those programs. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Before we deal with a variety of points of order, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Opposed? Carried. Thank you. head: Introduction of Special Guests (reversion) MR. ADAIR: Mr.

Speaker, it's an honour and a pleasure today for me to introduce a group recognized as the organizing commit- tee for the roast that was held on April 10 of this year in which my name was bandied about for four or five hours. The funds raised from that event totaled $51,218.15. Y esterday the committee members and I had the opportunity of presenting a cheque to the Edmonton cardiac and fitness centre in Edmonton.

Today seated in the Speaker's gallery are the movers and shakers that were responsible for the roast, for the success of the event, along with all those who kindly purchased tickets as well as the people who were doing the roast. I would ask them to stand, and when they're all standing, if we would give them a warm welcome from this Assembly: the chairman, Cathy Wyatt, Jim Acton, Don Clarke, Terry Cavanagh, Lloyd Osler, Ernie Walter, and in the members' gallery my executive assistant, Brian Hlus. I might point out that Jim was accused of being in the picture that was in the paper yesterday.

He was accused of being a roaster; he was an organizer. Dr. Talibi has a moustache. I want you to give them a warm welcome and a thank you.

790 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 MR. SPEAKER: Calgary-Forest Lawn. MR. PASHAK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly 17 bright and energetic grade 5 students from Holy Trinity school in Calgary. I know they had a great time last night staying at the Fantasyland Hotel. I hope they're finding their experience here today fully enjoyable. They're accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Li ndy Arndt and by parents Mrs. Sharon Keinick and Mr. Brian Scheiber.

I'd ask that they rise and receive a warm welcome from the members of the Assembly. MR. ELZINGA: Mr. Speaker, it's my delight, sir, to introduce to you a group of some 79 from the Mills Haven elementary school who are here, too, to tour the Legislative Assembly. I understand that they're in both the members' and public galleries. They are joined by Mrs. Cameron, Mr. Jessen, Mr. Mayes, and parents Mrs. Ruth Glombick, Mrs. Margaret Landry, Mrs. Janice Ritchie, and Mrs. Linda Zeiser.

I regret that I did not have an opportunity to have a photograph taken with them earlier because of the number of students that were here, sir, as you referred to earlier, but let me share with them that we will have a photograph to commemorate their visit going out to them. I would ask, too, that they rise and receive the warm welcome of the Legislative Assembly. We hope that their visit was very enjoyable. MR. SPEAKER: Part two from Calgary-Egmont. In the course of the morning we have had 190 students from Fairview junior high school.

They represent not only the constituency of Calgary- Egmont but, I know, other constituencies in the southern part of Calgary. Some of those students are still here with us, and I'd like to acknowledge the presence of other teachers and helpers: Mr. Blanchard, Mr. Wilberg, Mr. and Mrs. Kerber, Mrs. Low, Mrs. Goett, Ms A. Shannon and Ms K. Shannon, Mr. Finkbeiner, Ms Collin, Mrs. Rusk, Mrs. Conr ad, and Mr. Boivin. I thank them all for coming from one of the best of the 83 constituencies in the province. I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the House.

We have this interesting situation where there are 83 best constituencies in the province, until after the redesignation or the report of the Electoral Boundaries Commission. Point of Order Tabling a Cited Document MR. SPEAKER: We have a number of points of order. The first one: yesterday the Member for Edmonton-Kingsway raised the matter as to whether or not the documents referred to by the Minister of Public Works, Supply and Services during question period yesterday were indeed public.

I had a telephone conversa- tion with that minister this morning, and he assured me that all those documents are indeed part of the public record. Point of Order Tabling a Cited Document MR. SPEAKER: Now, with respect to today, the first one that I recognize is Edmonton-Whitemud. MR. WICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Citation: Beauchesne 495(1) and (2). Referring to the earlier point that you ruled on, I just want to make reference to the minister's remarks, specifically referring to the 1990 annual report.

If we look at Beauchesne 495(1), it states very clearly: A Minister is not at liberty to read or quote from a despatch or other state paper not before the House without being prepared to lay it on the Table. and

(2) It has been admitted that a document which has been cited ought to be laid upon the Table of the House. That particular document has not been tabled in this particular House, and I would request that you direct the minister responsi- ble to table that document in this House. MR. STEW ART: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is referring to the document to which you earlier referred, then I in turn would refer him to Beauchesne 495(3): A public document referred to but not cited or quoted . . . need not be tabled. MR. WICKMAN: It's not a public document; it's a government document. 11 : 0 0 MR.

SPEAKER: Well, there are two difficulties here. Number one, the Chair had already ruled on the point of order which was raised yesterday. The point of order presently being raised by the Member for Edmonton-Whitemud is not germane to today's discussion because it was not referred to in today's course of events during question period. The third portion of 495, as quoted by the Government House Leader, is indeed accurate. This point of order is not a point of order because it was not raised at the earliest possible opportunity, but the conversation is indeed germane to the whole matter. Additional points of order?

I know that there is at least one. Point of Order Procedure on Estimates MS BARRETT: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. My point of order pertains to Standing Order 58 and Beauchesne citation 953. Standing Order 58 is with respect to Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker, I was advised by the Government House Leader two days ago, perhaps three days ago, that today's estimates would be confined to the tourism component of the Department of Tourism, Parks and Recreation. Since then I've dealt with the Government House Leader's assistant on this – that is, a non- MLA – and I also talked to the minister about this yesterday.

I'm very concerned. First of all, what they want to do in my opinion would establish a very serious precedent which could have the effect of limiting the number of departments that actually come before Committee of S upply. As you know, we only have 25 days for consideration of the estimates, and that's how many departments there are. So if you take one

section of a department and say, “We're only going to debate that section,” that means that probably down the road we're not going to get another department to look at. Now, I would like to make the case first of all that under Beauchesne 953 an MLA s till has the right to discuss the entire department. I'll just read the relevant

section to the members. The whole management of a department may be discussed in a general way when the committee is considering the first item of the Estimates of that department, which reads as follows: “Vote 1 – Administration.” I'm sure our critic for Tourism, Parks and Recreation is prepared to do that. However, I think we need your ruling in this regard, Mr. Speaker. Citation after citation indicates that it is the department that is given to the Committee of Supply and not a segment of it. Now, while the Member for West Y ellowhead, our spokesperson for this department, has, without question, the

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 791 ability to discuss the entire department because of that citation, the minister is under no obligation to do that, and, worse yet, has stated that he's only prepared to talk about the tourism compo- nent. I find this a very serious problem and a dangerous precedent.

In your ruling I would ask for two things: one, clarification of the instructions to the Committee of Supply; and two, if in that clarification it's decided that you cannot force the minister to bring the department to the Committee of Supply, then will you attempt to extract a commitment from the government – I don't care if it's Government House Leader or Premier or whoever – that this is going to be a one-time-only event, that it won't happen again, and maybe put in the reasons for this one-time event. Thank you. MR. STEW ART: Mr.

Speaker, there are 25 days under the Standing Orders that are allotted for Committee of Supply. There are 25 or less departments. There is certainly no intention of avoiding any department from coming before that committee. That will not be the case. Indeed, under Standing Order 58(4) the Leader of the Opposition has it within his power to call any department, any votes before that committee by giving the appropriate notice. I think that the rules that are set forth in the Standing Orders allow sufficient flexibility for the concerns of the hon. member to be met. MR.

SPEAKER: Very briefly on this point, West Y ellowhead. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, the importance of the whole department is necessary on this day, because there are many other departments that perhaps we might want to call back. It would be very gracious if the government would allow the total budget of the Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation to be debated, because the total budget for the whole department is $102,491,1 14, and the estimates on page 31 1 indicate that tourism is a small portion of that: $17,839,170 – a very small portion of this particular department.

I hope your ruling would indicate that the total department could be discussed today. I'm prepared. Is the minister? MR. SPEAKER: This is not question period, hon. member. The issue is indeed an interesting one. To have the matter dropped on the Chair without much more prior notice than the fact there was going to be an item dealing with Committee of Supply is a bit difficult for the Chair to immediately respond to, and I know all hon. members can appreciate that concern.

I think that in light of the issue the Chair will indeed undertake to meet with the Chairman of the Committee of Supply but also with the Government House Leader to deal with the concern. Perhaps it can be dealt with in a way other than by a ruling by the Chair at this time. The Chair will also go a step further and point out that when the House almost immediately resolves itself into Committee of Supply, then I suppose that discussion could take place there as to the extent of the estimates on this day as well. head: Orders of the Day head: Committee of Supply [Mr. Jonson in the Chair] MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Good morning to the Committee of Supply. head: Main Estimates 1992-93 Tourism, Parks and Recreation MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This morning we are considering a department headed by the Hon. Don Sparrow. Having listened to the statement by the hon. Speaker, I as chairman would like a few minutes to review that matter, but I do not want to hold up the operation of the committee to do so. I would ask that the Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation start on his opening remarks. MR. SPARROW: Mr.

Chairman and committee members, I'm pleased to appear before the Committee of Supply to present the 1992-93 budget estimates for the new Ministry of Tourism, Parks and Recreation. Today's estimates should focus, in my opinion, on the tourism programs and initiatives, votes 1 and 2. It may be a small amount of money, as mentioned by my colleague from West Y ellowhead, but it is a very important economic diversifica- tion measure that has been identified, that tourism should be and can be a very important factor in the economic diversification on into the future.

I've had many and numerous requests from my colleagues to ask questions and to talk about the various tourism programs that are being run by the industry so successfully, and I urge you to follow through. We are in the process of amalgamating the two departments of government. It was just by the bare minimum that we did get them into the budget. Two or three more days and they would have shown us two different estimates.

So we are in that process. 11 : 10 However, in keeping with the decision to effect a merger of the former departments of Tourism and Recreation and Parks on the strength of a natural fit of mandated responsibilities, I think that it is important to address some of our natural ties, opportunities, and achievements in my opening remarks. I've also asked my colleague, the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek, to address some significant accomplishments of the Alberta Tourism Education Council. As the chairman of ATEC he has really brought some interesting industry insights to the programs supported by the agency. Mr.

Chairman, can I have the approval that my time for opening remarks be split between the two of us? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPARROW: Thank you, colleagues. Each part of Tourism, Parks and Recreation has its own specific mandate, but those mandates share many common goals. First, we are dedicated to bolstering the economy and at the same time responding to the unique social needs of Albertans and preserving a quality environment in everything we do. Economically, bringing these two ministries together is a natural move. Tourism, parks, and recreation each make significant contributions to our economy.

The tourism industry generated $2.77 billion in tourism spending in Alberta last year, of which a significant amount was spent by the 8.5 million visitors to our parks. Research also shows that Alberta's leisure industry generates close to some $6 b illion in ec onomic benefits for Alberta. Our first objective will be to make sure that there is no duplication in these estimates. Second, we have a social angle. The recreation programs and facilities throughout the province make a significant impact on the quality of life enjoyed by Albertans and our visitors.

From locally organized hockey, softball, and curling competitions to major professional and amateur sporting events, recreation is very

792 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 much a part of our culture and a healthy life-style that we see as we travel throughout Alberta. Third, with the heightened awareness of the environment, our parks, recreation, and tourism initiatives aim for a better and a greener bottom line. Parks professionals strive to conserve and preserve a natural Alberta while at the same time work with tourism professionals to make Alberta a major asset.

This merger brings together Alberta's land base with our highly advanced marketing organization, providing us with the opportunity to use but not abuse the land base to its maximum economic, social, and environmental potential. Today I would like to specifically address vote 1, Departmental Support Services, which has a 16.1 percent decrease, and vote 2, Tourism, which has a 20 percent decrease and overall a 7 percent decrease in permanent full-time positions or a total of some 50 full-time positions. Mr.

Chairman, the Lieutenant Governor in Council in his Speech from the Throne spoke of fiscal, economic, and social realities and set the stage for directions in priorities of this government as we move into the 1992-93 fiscal year. I will identify how my ministry supports these realities through its actions and programs.

Under fiscal reality, our executive management is down by 50 percent, some $500,000 annual savings; our administrative overhead, down by $1.8 million from last year; our travel expenses, down by 18 percent; our hosting expenditures, down by 28 percent; tourism program budgets, down by 20 percent primarily due to the successful conclusion of the CATA program,or the Canada/Alberta Tourism Agreement. We are doing more with less, which is causing increased client self- sufficiency and more private-sector partnerships. Doing more with less causes accountability on a project-by-project basis at every level.

Under economic reality and revenue generation, Mr. Chairman, the total tourism spending has tripled since the 1970s to $2.77 billion today, a $900 million increase in tourism spending over the past five years since the Premier identified tourism as one of the legs of diversification in this province. The CATA agreement had a leveraging effect of some seven times the value of the government involvement. Fifty-four million dollars in government funding supported close to 500 projects valued at some $400 million of development.

Our CTAP grants of some $20 million to date have had a four to fivefold investment of some $87 million in value. There are over 350 communities in this province, Mr. Chairman, that have done a community tourism action plan, have set goals. They average around 20 goals per community. They're working on them throughout the province. It's not the funding that is making it successful; it's the planning and the setting of the goals at the local levels of what they can do to improve on their tourism assets. Along with that CTAP program, Mr.

Chairman, the last Team Tourism grants of some $7 million have had a three to fourfold investment of some $25 million in value in marketing by all of the 14 TIAALTA zones. We have to compliment TIAALTA for administrating both of these programs in a very effective and efficient way. Tourism business counseling has some 350 projects under review, some $3.3 billion in potential opportunities. In one product line alone, golf, some 1 18 projects are on a project roster. Some 52 have opened from 1988 until last August. Another growth area, Mr. Chairman, is soccer. Soccer is growing at a 10 percent factor.

In your communities there is more demand for that sport to have more and new facilities. Mr. Chairman, 1990 saw the tourism industry tax contributions total some $635 million: $327 million in federal taxes, $233 million in provincial taxes, and some $75 million in municipal taxes. That is quite an improvement over the years previous. What are the economic issues coming up? CTAP and Team Tourism conclude in 1992-93 and should be refined, supported, and renewed, and I ask all of you to consider that when we bring them forward.

We'd like to thank the Alberta Lotteries and their minister for making those funds from lotteries available to the industry and to these worthwhile programs. Under social reality, we have our recreation and hosting programs addressing the social reality, and our educational and career expansion and development opportunities that are in ATEC will be discussed by the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. I'd like to take a minute, Mr. Chairman, to talk about our new marketing reorganization. Do we have an international presence? Y es.

Our department worked very vigorously with the industry last year to create a new five-year strategy to set goals of what we're going to do in each of the long-haul markets and what we're going to do in our provincial and regional markets. They've since then worked up business plans for each of those markets. The international markets identified are the U.K., Europe. We have a business plan. In the Pacific Rim we have a business plan. In the U.S.A. we have a business plan: one for in Alberta, one at the regional level, and one for eastern Canada.

With those plans we'll go forward to work with our customer the industry to help them bring to Alberta their customers the tourists. 11 : 2 0 Looking back, we have to say thank you to all of our foreign offices and our industry for their assistance and their endeavours throughout the world in their marketing efforts. Especially a good thanks to Horst Schmid, who works in Germany, and Mary LeMessurier in England. Their markets held up very well last year, and we held our own in the U.S. and the Asian-Pacific market.

One of the things that is going to affect our budget that doesn't show in our budget is the new western economic partnership agreements that are under the budget of Economic Development and Trade. My good colleague to my right I'm sure will be working with us to make sure we address the goals of that agreement. We anticipate signing it next week if the detail is all finalized. That will see an announcement of some $10 million over a period of four years put into national and international marketing with the federal government. We have that broken down as part of our business plans in each market.

One of the key things we must remember and have to do is make sure we maintain our competitive position in the market- place. When you have a recession, as the Premier has often said, you don't remove the salesmen that are out in the field; you increase your sales efforts. Let's not forget it. When I hear the opposition calling for closure of our international offices, I think it's almost sheer lunacy when you think of the massive impact that they've had over the years. In

summary, Mr. Chairman, what are we doing? We are streamlining. We are innovative and cost efficient. We are committed to teamwork and partnerships. We are significant revenue generators for the province. We support the priorities of this government, and we will be a stronger ministry through the merger of our programs and resources. Mr. Chairman, I would like to turn the floor over to my colleague from Calgary-Fish Creek and then respond to any questions that members may have.

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 793 Chairman's Ruling Procedure on Estimates MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order. Just a moment, hon. member. Prior to recognizing the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek, I would like to indicate and would recommend to the House that for the consideration of the estimates consideration be given to the fact that the minister is new to the second part of his portfolio. I think he is, however, willing to consider que stions and com- ments and reply in due course with respect to the

section under the recreation and parks area. So the questions from hon. members may deal with the entire department as noted in the budget book. I believe the minister has undertaken to reply to those questions. The Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. Point of Order Procedure on Estimates MR. BRUSEKER: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Are we going to see the estimates for parks and recreation on another day as well? MR. SPARROW: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that time will tell. I'm prepared to take any questions today on the total department.

It is so important that we get the issues out, and many of my colleagues have asked for more time. I would hope that we would designate it another day. We have been planning for it, so if it can happen, I think we should take the time to spend on both the former departments. We are merging them. It's important that we have time to discuss the issues. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well, I will go on then. I was as chairman working on the more technical aspects of a ruling on this and was just trying to point out a way that we might proceed in the interim.

Beauchesne 914 notes that “the Business of Supply consists of the consideration of main Estimates.” The agenda of Committee of Supply is therefore dictated by the contents as laid out for the estimates; that is, the votes. This is drawn up and duly printed by the government. Also relevant, I think, is Beauchesne 953. The Chair therefore would note that there are special circumstances in this particular case, due to the change in portfolios and so forth, but the Committee of Supply should be considering the total Department of Tourism, Parks and Recreation. Debate Continued MR.

PA YNE: I'm in a bit of a quandary this morning, and perhaps later on I might get the benefit of your guidance. On the one hand, we've lost a fair amount of time in the House today on these procedural questions, and I feel an obligation to allow both government and opposition members ample time to raise the questions or make the comments that they would wish.

On the other hand, I'm extremely proud of the work of the Alberta Tourism Education Council and feel a real obligation to share with members of the Assembly some of the more notable achievements of the council over this past year, so I'm going to try to strike a balance between those two conflicting time concerns. If I err, Mr. Chairman, obviously I will benefit from your guidance. I would at the outset, Mr.

Chairman, like to tell the minister that I see some obvious benefits resulting from the merging of the two departments that we've been discussing today and the creation of this new Ministry of Tourism, Parks and Recreation. Among the greater benefits I've identified as a result of my involvement with both former departments is the obvious opportunity that will now accrue to broaden the reach of departmental programs devoted to promoting excellence in our related industries.

Now, I think it's safe to say that one of the keys to achieving this is the partnership of industry, government, and education which we have established in the Alberta Tourism Education Council. I believe this is the first occasion on which staff of the Alberta Tourism Education Council have come to the gallery to witness the debate of ATEC-related issues, and if that's true, I would like to just acknowledge that they are here, and I'd like to tell them how I have very much appreciated my association with them over this past year.

Just one or two historical comments: since its creation in 1987 ATEC has played a major role in integrating the resources of industry and government and education to meet the educational and training needs of Alberta's tourism and hospitality industry. Now, in order to meet these needs, ATEC has launched a number of successful initiatives. Notable among these, however, is the program of standards and certification.

These initiatives, of course, in the earlier days of ATEC were led by Stockwell Day and more recently by Brian Evans, and I'd like to acknowledge the contribution of my two predecessors, particularly with respect to standards and certification. Perhaps I could give the members in the Assembly today a bit of an update on how that program is rolling. To date the council has been directly involved in the development of 30 occupational standards for a range of tourism occupations. I know some of you have asked me what these include, and I'll just toss out some examples for our purposes today.

Those that we've already established standards for would include food and beverage server, front desk agent, tourism visitor information counselor, and tourism director of sales and marketing. I might mention that through the tourism standards consortium, which is a western Canadian initiative involving B.C., Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Alberta, we've developed to date five occupational standards. These would include local tour guide, events co-ordinator, and beverage services manager. 11 : 3 0 I'm not so sure that the members of the Assembly are aware, however, Mr.

Chairman, that ATEC's reputation is starting to achieve national and international standards. Just to give you two examples. The ATEC development team has produced standards for the Saskatchewan Department of Economic Development and Trade as well as for the Pacific Rim Institute of Tourism. Alberta is also a part of a national body called Tourism Industry Standards and Certification Committee, TISCC. I'm pleased to say that ATEC continues as a driving force behind that national organiza- tion's efforts to produce and implement national standards and national certification.

In the area of program development and enhancement ATEC has taken significant strides in the creation and adaptation of courses and course curricula in our schools linked to ATEC endorsed standards and certification. I would like to share with you and the members here and the Minister of Education that ATEC has assisted his department in the development of a draft curriculum in tourism. Ultimately, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, tourism courses will be offered at the grades 10, 1 1, and 12 levels. That curriculum was recently tested in several Alberta high schools and produced promising results.

Establishing such curricula in our school systems will encourage, it appears to me, more of our young people to explore the great potential for careers in tourism. These courses that I've referred to can improve both the level of service throughout the industry and the image or reputation our industry has established. I would like to thank my colleague the

794 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 hon. Minister of Education for his foresight and for the tremen- dous support that he has provided through his departmental people to us. The tourism curriculum project is also by the council's provincewide tourism career awareness program. Developed in conjunction with the Tourism Industry Association of Alberta, TIAALTA, this program is intended to provide our high school students with information on the wide range of rewarding careers that are available to them in tourism. I'm pleased to report, Mr.

Chairman, that by mid-June this program will have been delivered to some 100 high schools across the province. The remarkable aspect of this program is that the information is delivered to these students in the classroom by a network of industry volunteers. Without this significant industry support we wouldn't have been able to reach the t housands of students that we have with the message that tourism offers thousands of jobs and career develop- ment opportunities. Mr. Chairman, career awareness is an important element of our efforts in the area of professionalism and industry image.

One point I should add is that right now, virtually as we speak, we're in the midst of a process of meeting with all of the postsecondary institutions offering tourism programs. I'm encouraged that the Minister of Advanced Education is in the Assembly. I would like to thank all members, and I think they would all be pleasantly surprised as to how many tourism related offerings are now available through our postsecondary institutional community. We're working with these institu tions and indeed all training sources to encourage links with ATEC's standards and certifica- tion process.

The educational community is a vital partner in these efforts to strengthen tourism-related education and training. The Alberta Best program organizationally, of course, is a part of the department of tourism rather than an integral part today of ATEC. I felt it would be appropriate to make one or two comments on the Alberta Best program, but before I do so, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to just slip in a PS about HRC, our hospitality resource centre. Through this centre we offer a wide range of audiovisual materials, primarily video cassette tapes, to assist the industry with staff training. Mr.

Chairman, from what we can determine, the HRC is the largest tourism-related library of its kind in Canada. Again, our ability to offer this service is largely a result of the support received from Tourism, Parks and Recre- ation as well as from industry and Education. Alberta Best, Mr. Chairman.

The tourism industry of Alberta has for some time faced a two-prong challenge: first, to increase the level of service provided in all areas of the industry; and second, to increase the level of awareness on the part of both industry personnel and our constituents, the general public, of the key role that tourism plays in the Alberta economy and the importance of providing quality tourism services to every visitor that comes to our province. I'm pleased to see that through the Alberta Best program the province is rising to these challenges.

The Alberta Best program was launched in October of 1990 and is a joint venture of ATEC and Alberta Tourism, Parks and Recreation. It's that linkage in the earlier days of Alberta Best that prompts my comments in the House today, Mr. Chairman. As I understand it, the Alberta Best program is made up of two components: training and public awareness designed to provide training in service excellence and hospitality for owners, manag- ers, and employees in the industry, as well as to help every Albertan understand the important benefits of providing visitors with hospitality and service excellence.

I had quite a few other comments I wanted to make on Alberta Best, Mr. Chairman, but I think my time has pretty well been consumed. Let me just say with respect to the Alberta Best program that over 5,000 industry professionals throughout Alberta have now completed the Alberta Best program, and I'm advised that the 1992-93 goal is to add another 10,000 people to that significant effort. Mr. Chairman, the tourism industry serves the public. Likewise, the Alberta Tourism Education Council serves the industry. As an industry-driven organization we respond to the needs presented to us by our industry colleagues.

It's a very fruitful and mutually rewarding covenant that we share with industry. However, we also work proactively using the resources available through the Department of Tourism, Parks and Recre- ation to anticipate needs of industry and to take appropriate action. ATEC supports the Hon. Don Sparrow, the minister, in his efforts, and I believe I speak for everyone on the council and in the industry in saying that we're pleased to have his support as well. Finally, Mr.

Chairman, let me just say that the Alberta Tourism Education Council looks forward to the challenges and the opportunities presented in the creation of this new department whose estimates we're examining today. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for West Y ellowhead. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I first want to begin by congratulating the minister on taking over the department of parks and recreation.

The Official Opposition has on many occasions said that Tourism, Parks and Recreation would be a good amalgamation, as they go hand in hand in the good promo- tion of exercise, health and tourism throughout Alberta and in fact throughout Canada. We, of course, are looking forward to transportation and Municipal Affairs someday amalgamating and saving the taxpayers a bunch of money also. Mr. Chairman, I want to acknowledge the great help that the deputy minister of tourism, Bernie Campbell, gave over the years since I was elected in 1989 when there were questions that I needed answered, sometimes a little quickly.

He was always available and responded in a very positive way to any questions and assisted whenever he could. I want to wish Bernie well in the future. I also want to wish the new Deputy Minister of Tourism, Parks and Recreation a long success in both departments. Julian Nowicki I'm sure is well informed in both departments by now, and as the minister becomes more informed, I'm sure things will run very smoothly throughout Tourism, Parks and Recreation. I also want to compliment the minister on the great work they have done on the Alberta Best program and indeed on the Alberta Tourism Education Council.

I hope that the new leader of the Alberta Tourism Education Council does at least equally as well as Susan Dowler did when she was leading that great department. Indeed, the people of Ontario are now gaining benefits from what she promoted here in Alberta. I'm sure that she'll succeed well in her position down there. 11 : 4 0 One of the questions I had, Mr. Chairman, was the fact of the tendering of some $500,000 for the Tokyo dinosaur exhibition. I was hoping the minister would never again allow tenders of this magnitude to go out without being put to the public.

Half a million dollars with no tenders is quite a misuse of taxpayers' money, something that we would not like a municipality or anybody to do without having the opportunity for free enterprise to make bids on these things. The community tourism action plan, Mr. Chairman, has been beneficial to all the communities in Alberta. I believe the minister said that most of those municipalities have now finished their community tourism action plans. I know in my riding of West

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 795 Y ellowhead you can see the benefits in the developments that have taken place because of the community tourism action plan. My question would be as to whether there are going to be further moneys put into a program such as the community tourism action plan and perhaps taken out of some of the departments. As more money comes in from Parks and Recreation, perhaps the money can be moved around to put something in place to finish up some of the great ideas that the local movers and shakers that worked on the community tourism action plan would have liked to have finished.

As I traveled through northern Alberta especially, Mr. Chair- man, the people up there indicated that they could certainly use more money to develop many of the ideas that came up during the plan, but there just wasn't enough money available. Some of the money I'm sure was handled very genuinely, but in regards to the community tourism action plan I do have a question how two grants were given to one place – one being North Road Lumber and the other one the Edson RV resort centre – Gerald and Sandra Hecht. I was under the understanding that only one grant could go to one particular development.

It so happens that Mrs. Hecht happens to be the president of the PC Party in the particular area. I would hope that would have no reference to why they got two grants and many other people were left without grants. In fact, there was quite a problem when the seniors of Grande Cache applied for money under the community tourism action plan. They had to go through an appeal process to get $10, 000, and here's $50,000 given out to the same location. Indeed, the Edson RV resort is a great benefit to the community of Edson, and if anybody is traveling west on Highway 16, it's a very fine park to camp for a weekend.

They have a very nice development, but how much money did we put into the private sector? Is one grant enough, or should we have stacking grants? It was noted earlier that the number of people visiting Alberta has actually dropped quite a large amount. Tourism have done their best in Alberta, I'm sure, to generate more people visiting, but just how much benefit do we have with Mr. Schmid traveling the world? What real benefits are coming back? The minister indicated he's doing a great job, but I guess he has to say something to substantiate his position. I did read a document earlier, when I met with Mr.

Schmid in Jasper Park Lodge at the tourism convention this year, and it was very clear that he met with people like Greyhound, Pacific Western, I believe it was: probably 30 Canadian companies that he could have phoned here in Alberta rather than going to a trade show in Europe to contact. I would hope that there are some benefits being reaped by the commissioner going to all these different places. The amount of tourism down: hotel occupancy in the province fell 6 percent in the 10 months up to October 1991; Edmonton alone had a plunge of 7.4 percent.

Visitors to Alberta's historic sites and museums had a drop of some 18 percent this past year, Mr. Chairman, and restaurant receipts in the province fell 5 percent in the eight months in the last part of 1991. Indeed the economy across the country and North America is hurting, so I would hope that through all this training through the Alberta Tourism Education Council, these young people working in the service areas in Alberta are also reaping the benefits of a higher dollar or perhaps more tips. A few years ago, before the Alberta Education Council started, many of them had very little training.

The owners of the industries were a little shy of putting in funds. They actually wanted, I guess, the taxpayers to pay. The tourism council has addressed many of those questions, and I'm sure now that the employees have been reaping the benefits. At the convention on tourism in Jasper, Mr. Chairman, I was glad to see that tourism has developed a green plan for tourism.

It was held in a perfect area, in the green area of Jasper national park, in fact in the very green riding of West Y ellowhead, so I would hope that tourism throughout Alberta and those who work in the tourism industry will indeed develop a green plan in every development that they make. This summer will see the anniversary of the Alaska Highway, Mr. Chairman, and we'll have quite an influx of tourists.

Indeed, Jack Smith from the Y ellowhead Highway Association traveled the U.S. recently for six months to encourage people to come to the Y ellowhead Highway and also to come to the anniversary of the opening of the Alaska Highway. Next week, on the 13th, 14th, and 15th, is the opening of the twinning of the Y ellowhead Highway. There are celebrations planned, and I hope that many MLAs will be able to join the Y ellowhead Highway Association convention in Jasper next weekend. Some of our colleagues will be traveling on the caravan.

We will have to be excused from the Legislature for a couple of days to see the importance of the twinning of the highway and the potential that it will have in tourism. When the former Minister of Recreation and Parks was in place, Mr. Chairman, I brought to his attention many times the need for a provincial park to protect the area of Emerson Lake north of Edson which is an area that has some hoodoos I believe is the proper term, in a remote area in a triangle between Edson and Hinton.

It's now protected by the department of forestry, but the companies who are doing the cutting of the timber in that area are becoming very closely involved with the sensitive areas around Emerson Lake. I would hope that now that we have a new minister of parks and recreation, he would look seriously at establishing a provincial park in that area. It is not a large area, but the province has put a lot of money into development of the washroom facilities, trails, and those types of things with a lot of help from volunteers.

TIAALTA, of course, under the leadership of many of the tourism organizers in the province has done well over the years, Mr. Chairman, but I wonder if we don't have too many duplicate jobs in tourism tramping around the province. They meet, and I'm sure a lot of people wonder what they really come up with at the end, if there's any real help to the industry. In the parks and recreation estimates, Mr. Chairman, I have some concern with the cuts to the community recreation/cultural grants. For years municipalities and rec boards have depended on the CRC grants.

They've been gradually cut, and the municipali- ties are feeling the strain of those cuts. The minister in the report he put out recently identified that he would be seriously l ooking at the CRC plan in total. I would hope that the minister would think very seriously before he makes any more cuts to the CRC grants because they do affect the municipalities in a very negative way. They had depended on those for a long time, and hopefully they will continue. 11 : 5 0 The Blue Lake centre is an area north of Hinton, Mr.

Chair- man, that has been very helpful over the years in training people in remote areas, and I'm pleased to see that the minister has left a little increase in their particular funds. Mr. Chairman, before I take my place, I would like to mention that I have embarked on an endeavour to promote tourism in my riding, and it will help tourism throughout Alberta; that is, twinning with a riding in Ontario: Kingston and The Islands. We've exchanged videotapes, all kinds of brochures, maps, and several pieces of paraphernalia.

We're looking at winding down the twinning of our riding sometime within the next couple of months. I would hope that every member of the Legislature

796 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 would pick a place in Canada and try and twin their riding with another riding to help people to understand what a great country we have and what a great province we have to visit. On that, Mr. Chairman, I will leave it to other members to say some more. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Calgary-North West. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Chairman. I would like to get into this debate as well, but first perhaps I could ask if the committee would allow my colleague from Edmonton-Meadowlark and I to share the 30 minutes time between the two of us, if that's acceptable to the committee. HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you to the committee members. Just a comment, Mr. Chairman. I'm very pleased to get in on the tourism debates here. I'd just like to express a little bit of a concern about the sudden change in the shift here. We had notice as of Tuesday, I think it was, that it will be tourism only today, and relatively short notice. So perhaps in the future we could resolve that issue a little earlier so we could prepare a little more appropriately. The amalgamation of departments is something we've talked about as well.

I think the minister finds his hands full now with an enlarged department and programs, and I wish him well in a challenging time ahead I'm sure. Jumping right into it, I think the minister has talked about the tourism department as being one that has real potential to be a prime mover in terms of the economy in the province of Alberta, and yet the budget unfortunately shows that the tourism side is actually smaller than the parks and recs side. I hope the minister can keep his focus on the tourism aspect, as I really do believe this is a wave of the future.

I offer that as a suggestion to the minister: let's not forget what's going on there. When I first came into the Legislature a number of years ago, we talked in the Throne speech about a $10 billion industry by the year 2000, and the Auditor General's report said that there were no directions with respect to clearly-defined objectives as to how that would be achieved. I wonder if the minister could make any comment about new objectives being set as to how large the tourism industry is expected to be by the year 2000. That's the number he was throwing about. First of all, what is the objec- tive?

How large is it likely to be in the province of Alberta? Number two, how is that objective going to be met? I think it's one thing to set an objective; it's another thing to know how you're going to get there. [Mr. Moore in the Chair] The hon. Minister of Economic Development and Trade is involved in a Toward 2000 Together program. I know that tourism is involved, at least to a certain extent. Are there going to be some long-term tourism objectives that will come out of the Toward 2000 Together initiative? Does the minister have any indication as to what may be happening there?

The next question I want to ask the minister is with respect to exit surveys. We just completed an exit survey in the department of tourism a while back, and the Auditor General made a comment that they weren't happening as frequently as necessary. I'm wondering if the minister has addressed that in the budget this year. Is there a new plan to have more frequent or more thorough surveys of a variety of different types? With respect to the exit survey that was just completed, I understand that the information was supposed to be available early this year.

I'm wondering if the minister could enlighten us as to when the data may be released. We're getting bits and pieces coming out in documents released by the department. The Tourism Pulse hot line gives us a bit of information, but we don't have the whole story yet. So I'm wondering when the rest is going to be coming out. Another question that I wanted to ask the minister. The Auditor General has talked about a concern with respect to tendering. In vote 2 there's some indication of a variety of programs. Has the minister addressed the concern about tendering and will that be resolved?

I want to go straight into vote 2.1, Product Development. This is in part, I understand, the CTAP. “Refined, supported, and renewed” I think were the three terms the minister used with respect to CTAP. I do support CTAP. I think there are some refinings that need to be done, and I'm wondering if the minister could just comment a little further. Is there going to be a renewal to CTAP? The reason I'm asking the question is this. I think the concept is a good idea; certainly the idea of getting a community involved is excellent. My concern is in terms of who is getting the dollars.

The Member for West Y ellowhead referred to this as a concern. CTAP as administered by TIAALTA: TIAALTA doesn't issue a news release saying, “Well, here's where the money has gone”; the department of tourism says, “We give the money to those guys, so it's not our job to issue the news release”; and the people that get the money don't think about giving a news release. So nobody really knows who got the money other than the department. Can this be resolved?

I don't care who gives the information out, whether it's the department of tourism or TIAALTA, but can we get a quarterly statement or an annual report saying: “Here's the community; here's the project. Here are the dollars for the CTAP; here are the total project dollars”? As far as I know, there's no cumulative list, and I think it's important for a cumulative list to be issued on a regular basis. So a question: can I get a list? We've had some discussions in question period about bungee jumping and washing machines.

I'm wondering: in refining the CTAP, if CTAP is in fact renewed, is there going to be a tightening up of the guidelines for the projects that can receive CTAP funding? Bungee jumping is one that you can pick up your rubber band and move it wherever you want to, and that clearly doesn't seem to tie in – no pun intended – to the fact that it should be a permanent fixture. That's one of the guidelines of CTAP. Bungee jumping: you can take your rubber band and go any- where. So I think there's a little more concern with respect to where we're going in terms of projects like that. The minister talked about marketing.

I know that I've made some comments to the minister about marketing in the past. There's a draft strategic marketing plan 1991 to 1996 being proposed. I've had the opportunity to participate, actually, in one of those workshops, and I thought it was a very useful process. My compliments to the minister and his department for that initiative. I think that's the forward looking we need to have. My concern again, though, is that a lot of the marketing we're doing is under Team Tourism. Team Tourism is lottery dollars, and lottery dollars are not reflected in this particular document.

We've got to market, we've got to promote Alberta, but this document we have before us doesn't tell the whole story. Is there some way we can improve this to show all of the dollars that are expended on marketing, including Team Tourism, so we can put it in here and say, “Here's the total amount”? B ecause we see a decline; we're now down to $17 million in vote 2. So the total size of the department is getting smaller, but really there are other pieces out there that aren't reflected in this document. CTAP is one of them,

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 797 and Team Tourism is another one where dollars are being spent on tourism but aren't reflected in this document. I think that's wrong, and I think it should be changed. We should have all of the marketing dollars in here, ev en if it's just a line that says nonbudgetary and it's just sort of a starred item that says, “Here are dollars that are being expended.” Let's get the total picture. Now, I know the minister made some comments about foreign offices.

The Liberal caucus has recommended they be closed, but the minister said something along the line that if they've brought in so much good, how could we propose closing them. One of the questions we put to the Minister of FIGA, and I'm going to put the same question to the minister of tourism: do you have any objective data that says, “We've spent X number of dollars here, and they brought in so many dollars over here”? B ecause we don't have any real cost/benefit analysis.

Does the minister of tourism have a cost/benefit analysis that says we're spending this dollar and, man oh man, we're getting 10 or 15 or 20 times back? If the minister could show me that kind of information, I would support those offices a hundred and ten percent. I've never seen that kind of data, and I sure would like to if he's got it. 12:00 Since we're promoting tourism – and I know the minister is aware of the initiatives because the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek is involved with the same committee I am, the Pacific Northwest Economic Region – we're working together in larger areas.

With respect to foreign offices, I'm wondering: has there been some consideration to work with the other provincial offices? For example, I'm sure that if you're going to get someone here from Tokyo, they're probably going to come in and see British Columbia as well as Alberta. Is there any way we can work together, share some of those costs, reduce some overhead, and perhaps get even a bigger bang for the buck? I understand we've got some offices in Tokyo, London, and Geneva. I'm particularly wondering about the office in Geneva.

Perhaps the minister could provide a little information on that office about the economic return. I'd be interested in seeing that. Just very quickly – because I want to make sure my colleague for Edmonton-Meadowlark has some time here – with respect to vote 2.4, the Canada/Alberta Tourism Agreement, we see it's wrapping up here: a few dollars, I guess, for final administration. A question to the minister: is there going to be a final document that sort of summarizes the whole program? We're complete now in terms of project, location, dollars expended. Is there going to be a kind of wrap-up,

summary document produced that says what we did with this project? I think that would be very useful not only to members of the Legislature but also to those involved in the tourism industry. ATEC, Tourism Education and Training. I am a firm believer in education and training, given my past profession, and I stand by that and support that initiative in the department. I'm a little concerned about some – and I want to emphasize the word “some” – of the service jobs, what's called the McJobs, the minimum wage jobs getting five bucks an hour.

I'm wondering: has the minister of tourism had any conversations with the Minister of Labour, at least on an annual basis? I know we just increased our minimum wage recently, but one of the concerns we've had was that it was a long time before we even reviewed it. Is there any discussion going on now between the minister of tourism and the Minister of Labour to review those jobs? We know some of those jobs are minimum wage, and it's pretty tough for a family to make a go at that minimum wage level. I'm a little concerned, I guess, in terms of streamlining.

We've supported the concept of streamlining, and the minister has said he's still a little uncomfortable and still on the learning ground. Perhaps he could talk a little bit more about some of the efficien- cies that hopefully are going to be realized by merging the two departments. I guess the other thing I want to ask the minister about – and it's a very difficult area – is the Canmore-Bow corridor area or whatever you want to call it.

There's a real concern between, on the one hand, people who say, “We want to preserve what we've got; we want to keep our natural environment because that's what's really attracting people to Alberta,” and, on the other hand, people saying, “Let's develop and bring something in and let's create new attractions.” Those are both worthy goals, but it's a real balancing act. I'm wondering if the minister could address that.

I think it's a concern about how you address those two issues and provide something and yet preserve our environ- ment and make sure we've got something so we don't, in the promotion of developing something, spoil it for future genera- tions. Mr. Chairman, I'll stop there and turn over the rest of the time to my colleague from Edmonton-Meadowlark. MR. ACTING DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Edmonton-Meadowlark. MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a series of questions in the time we have left on the parks and recreation portion of the minister's responsibilities.

I, too, would like to express my concern that it has come on us suddenly that this has been put on the agenda. I also appreciate the concerns of the New Democrats that in fact it could set a precedent that we speak about part of a department and not all of it. My first comments and questions would relate to the issue of protected areas. I would like to congratulate the minister on his several recent initiatives in reappointing the Advisory Committee on Wilderness Areas and Ecological Reserves for three more years and, in fact, his efforts to designate some additional ecological reserves.

I have some questions, however, about that process. Specifically, I am interested in the minister's plans to designate Ross Lake, Middle Sand Hills, and Egg Island. Egg Island, of course, is particularly important to the extent that it's the only known nesting site of Caspian terns in Alberta. My concern is whether each of these areas will be large enough. It isn't enough simply to set aside ecological reserves. It is important that they be large enough to be self-sustaining. The half hectare that is being considered for Egg Island doesn't seem to be a particularly large area and raises the question of size.

This is a common problem with respect to the ecological reserves this government has specified. I'm particularly concerned about the size issue when I reflect upon comments by the former Minister of Recreation and Parks, who referred to the proposed Middle Sand Hills ecological area as a massive land grab. Question: what is the time frame for designating ecological reserves in other regions with respect to the Lakeland provincial park and recreation area? My concern is that that is too small.

My further concern is that the government will construe this as being a big area because they will surr ound the park itself with what they call a recreational area and somehow say this is a park with certain conservation a nd preservation elements that encompasses an area of 58,800 hectares. Of course, only 14,689 hectares are actually park, and that makes this a relatively small park when compared to Peter Lougheed park at 51,712 hectares and even Cypress Hills at 20,450 hectares.

The problem with recreation areas, as I know the minister knows, is they do not protect the area against logging, hunting, oil and gas well exploration and extraction, or even year-round ATV use. So it is important that, one, the area of the actual park be bigger and,

798 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 two, that people are never led to believe that a 58,800 hectare park and recreational area plan truly amounts to any kind of true preservation of that area. We're concerned about the stocking and restocking of trout fishing in this area. My information is that about 60 percent of the sport fishing in this provin ce occurs in northeastern Alberta but, for example, only about 26 percent of the walleye fingerlings were restocked in that area. Now, there may be reasons for that. There may be plenty of walleye there anyway.

But it is a statistic that at least raises a suspicion, and I'd like the minister to answer why there appears to be that imbalance. I'm also concerned that once the Lakeland park is developed, there will be even more pressure on trout fisheries, sport fisheries in that area. That isn't, of course, all bad; we want the area to be used for tourism and to attract tourists.

At the same time, it raises the question about whether or not there are plans to sufficiently restock that area with trout and so on, and I wonder whether the minister is lobbying the minister of forestry to ensure plans are in place to anticipate that possibility. AN HON. MEMBER: Have you ever been there? MR. MITCHELL: Y es, I have, and it doesn't take long to get through it because it's such a small park. With respect to fiscal responsibility concerns, there are a couple of things I'd like to highlight.

The manner in which the Depart- ment of Tourism, Parks and Recreation gives grants – grants, of course, require a report. My information is that 500 reports covering $5.8 million in grants are in arrears. The minister says that perhaps no more grants will go to organizations that don't submit reports for past grants.

Will the minister please confirm that in fact that is the case, that no organization gets a grant if they haven't reported on the receipt and use of their previous grant, and will he tell us what other steps he's taking other than simply the spectre of not giving an organization another grant. 12:10 With respect to the Recreation, Parks, and Wildlife Foundation, I would like to say that that organization has been extremely helpful to me, to my constituents, and to others to whom I have spoken. They're very, very helpful.

But the Auditor General's comment in this recent Auditor General's report was that $200,000 was provided as a loan by the foundation and subse- quently approved as a grant in 1990-91 without, the Auditor General claims, the foundation's normal controls being imple- mented. I wonder whether the minister could res pond to the Auditor General's comment in that respect.

With respect to the Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation, I would also like to know why the Alberta Lottery Fund increased its grant for 1991 from $4.5 million to $5.4 million when the foundation had over $2 million in unexpended funds at the start of the year. That's not to say that they don't use the money appropriately, but it is a red flag when we're giving them extra money when they already haven't spent the money they were given previously. It's particularly disconcerting when it occurs with lottery funds for which there is no proper legislative review and control.

While I'm not raising a suspicion, I am simply asking a question to explain why that would occur. I believe, as I say, given the nature of lottery funds in this province and their lack of review, it is a particularly important area for the minister's consideration. The Alberta Sport Council: again, I'm concerned that the money for this comes from lottery funds and is not properly reviewed.

Would the minister not consider that that money should come under the purview of his department and should be reviewed by the Legislature to ensure that in fact it's being spent in a way that's consistent with the views of the people of Alberta? Some specific questions. I would like the minister to comment on the relationship between Little League Baseball Alberta and Baseball Alberta. I have a letter that will be going to the minister raising some concerns about that relationship. It seems inefficient to have two such organizations.

It seems there are questions as to whether Little League Baseball Alberta properly reports or keeps proper reports about its membership. I don't know; I'm not alleging that. I'm just saying that has been raised with me. And there is concern that Little League Baseball Alberta sends umpire trainees out of the province – in fact, to the United States – to be trained at additional cost when in fact clinics could be held in Alberta and are, I understand, held by Baseball Alberta in Alberta. I'd like the minister to comment on that relationship and those particular concerns.

I would also ask the minister to comment on the relationship of the various skiing organizations which are funded through the Alberta Sport Council by an overall organization. I know there's some friction amongst the various ski organizations. I believe, for example, the cross-country ski people feel there's unnecessary administration, that in fact money that could be spent more directly on promoting the sport gets mired in an unnecessary level of administration that tries to bring the five, I think it is, ski organizations together. Bicycling. Bicycling has all kinds of merits to recommend it.

I rode my bike to work this morning and feel pretty healthy about that. Even the new Solicitor General could use a little bit of that exercise, I'm sure. It's only a four- or five-hour bike ride out to Vermilion. I'm wondering whether the minister could indicate what support he would give to private initiatives such as Trailnet, if nothing more than a policy statement encouraging municipalities to work with the project.

He could facilitate discussions with municipalities and co-ordinate those discussions, because in fact a good deal of Trailnet's success will be that it links up communi- ties so a tour of some duration can be undertaken by avid bicyclists. Bicycle touring is, as I'm sure the minister knows, one of the fastest growing family sports in North America. This area, Alberta, has a particularly good climate for the development of this type of tourism.

We have small communities and major recognized recreational areas, and they can be linked in many areas by bike trails that do not need to involve overly long bicycling trips, day trips. It increases the scope for tourism. It will attract tourism to small communities. It would encourage the development of bed and breakfast facilities, which in fact could become additional income for farms. It's very, very low impact. It has a very low impact on the environment. Moreover, it provides leadership for environmentally sensitive life-style changes. People can see more and more bicycling.

They can work that into their daily lives. They can ride to work. They can ride to school. It has all kinds of possibilities, and it doesn't cost a great deal to develop. One of the things that has been identified, I believe, in the past by tourism analysis in this prov ince is that while you can get a tour organized here to go somewhere else, there aren't a great number of tours organized for people within Alberta or people who come to Alberta. In fact, I have seen only two bicycling tour companies outlined in the Alberta Hotel Association's annual catalogue of hotels and tour opportunities.

Bicycling tourists can fill a pretty important . . . [interjection] No, I'm learning how to backpedal when I watch the minister of social services answer his questions. He just sent me a letter here saying: “How did you ride your bike today? Were you pedaling or backpedaling?”

May 8, 1992 Alberta Hansard 799 With respect to developments in the Bow corridor and Kananaskis, I think people can't be against everything that's of commercial worth and also against golf courses. Y ou've got to have some golf courses; it's a pretty environmentally clean development. However, it has to be done properly. We need to have NRCB review of any kind of golf course development in any kind of sensitive area, and I believe we need to emphasize environmentally sound techniques.

For example, in fertilizing golf courses, one possibility would be to capture and recycle the water so there would be a self-contained drainage system. I would like to see the minister advocating that with the Minister of the Environment in the process of developing golf courses in this province. Kananaskis Country Management, vote 5, of course is a concern to many Albertans.

I believe we simply do not get enough money from the people who run that development, given the huge amount of investment on the part of Albertans in the Kananaskis area development and given the proceeds it seems they receive for managing that park. Can we afford the current arrangement? What is being done? How much are we, in fact, receiving now for the rental of the golf course facilities to Kan- Alta management? There is a 48 percent increase, $500,000 for development and major maintenance. What is being done with this money, and can these works be postponed?

With respect to the Canmore Nordic Centre, a $640,000 grant. This is a remarkable facility. We all should be proud of it. I would like to know why it is that we don't charge a fee for its use. Not charging a fee for that cross-country facility would be like not charging a fee, in my mind, for the Mount Allan/Kananaskis ski facility. I mean, this is a wonderful facility at Canmore, and I believe people would be prepared to pay for it and should be prepared to pay for it.

In fact, at the Strathcona Wilderness Centre cross-country facility, fees are charged and that doesn't appear to discourage anybody. 12:20 With respect to vote 1, there is an 1 1 percent increase in the Minister's Office. Of course, that can be properly attributed to the amalgamation of the two departments, but I would like assurances that the other costs attributed to the office of the former Minister of Recreation and Parks aren't being hidden somewhere; whether in fact we have saved something in the order of 90 percent of those costs or whether they are being hidden somewhere else.

Vote 3, Provincial Parks: there's an 88 percent increase in the budget, up to $1,070,000, in the West Central Region. Could the minister please indicate what the cause for that increase is? There's a 100 percent increase in the East Central Region, which, of course, includes Lakeland park. I would like to know specifi- cally when the minister proposes to have the Lakeland park development as he has planned it finished. Thank you. MR. ACTING DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Banff-Cochrane. MR. EV ANS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm delighted to have an opportunity today to make some brief comments concerning the Department of Tourism, Parks and Recreation. I, too, basically concentrated my remarks initially on the tourism aspect, feeling that that was going to be the focus here. Tourism is such an important industry in the province of Alberta that I know full well that members could have spent the entire time devoted to these estimates on that very important issue.

Nonetheless, I will make some brief remarks in conclusion regarding parks and recreation and specifically Kananaskis Country, which is such a very big part of Banff-Cochrane constituency. [Mr. Jonson in the Chair] Since I was elected in 1989, Mr. Chairman, I certainly have had terrific opportunities to become more and more involved in the tourism industry. I think the constituency I represent is clearly a leader in the tourism industry in the province of Alberta.

It has been the drawing card for tourism from a regional, national, and international basis coming into the province of Alberta for a goodly number of years, and that's because Canada's first national park, Banff national park, is situated in Banff-Cochrane constitu- ency. Banff national park was created by our visionary federal government, who recognized it was a park for the people.

We have moved in the province in a number of ways to expand that “park for the people” concept through our provincial park system and certainly again through our Kananaskis Country and lately with the dedication of Lakeland provincial park. I'm very, very pleased that these two departments have been amalgamated, and I'm somewhat surprised – with a little bit of tongue in cheek, mind you, Mr. Chairman – that neither the Official Opposition nor the Liberal opposition gave any compli- ments to the government on the elimination of the second ministerial salary of $52,000 as a result of this amalgamation.

But, hon. minister, I would also suggest there is some positive comment, even though perhaps cloaked a little bit, from both the opposition parties because neither have suggested that your salary be decreased. I was very impressed with the minister's introductory remarks when he concentrated on quality environment.

As the minister of tourism recognizes full well, as do our partners in tourism in the province of Alberta, I think of how important the continuation of a quality environment – clean air, clean water, and a clean land base – is to ensuring that the people of Alberta will stay in Alberta and spend money in Alberta on their tourism dollar, which, by the way, accounts for some 70 percent of a $2.9 billion industry in the province right now.

Also, if we want to attract those regional, national, and international tourists, we are going to have to maintain the kind of quality environment Albertans have called their own from the very time this province was created.

I think what happens with the amalgamation of these two departments is that we now have a very visible opportunity to look carefully at issues such as the wilderness areas, the ecological reserves, and the natural areas and see how they come together with our provincial parks, working with our federal park as well, to ensure that we will be concentrating on that environmental component, that quality environment that is so extremely impor- tant to Albertans and to our visitors.

The minister also made some comments on CTAP and Team Tourism, and both of the critics on the other side questioned the minister as to whether those programs are going to be continued. I would question that as well and certainly lend my support to both those opportunities that have been created in this province. The CTAP program, the community tourism action plan program, has given communities an opportunity to bring their expertise together to identify their prioritie s.

I think that's an extremely important goal, and results are pretty evident around the province not only in the Banff-Cochrane constituency but provincewide. When you look at the Team Tourism program, which is a marketing program, again there has been an opportunity for communities to get together and market their products, but I do have a question for the minister as to the future of Team Tourism, whether or not it is time to look at a more regionally based Team

800 Alberta Hansard May 8, 1992 Tourism program. I think there are certainly some opportunities to improve that program and ensure that areas that do have some common themes, some common attractions, will come together and use the next version of Team Tourism to market those products on a more regional basis. My colleague the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek made some very pertinent comments about the Alberta Tourism Education Council, and I too want to thank the people from ATEC, who are in our audience today in the members' gallery. I felt very privileged, Mr.

Chairman, to have the opportunity to chair the Alberta Tourism Education Council for approximately a year. During that time there was a focus on developing standards and certification, and I'm very, very pleased with the job my col- league from Calgary-Fish Creek is doing. I think the next phase of the Tourism Education Council is marketing. I think Susan Dowler, the first executive director of ATEC, did a superb job in ensuring that the groundwork was formed. Now we have Al Parsons taking on that role. He has a terrific marketing back- ground, having been involved with Klondike Days here in Edmonton.

Certainly the Member for Calgary-Fish Creek, with his public relations background – the two of them work very well together in terms of marketing what we do have and ensuring that the industry, the driving force of tourism in the province of Alberta, is aware of what the opportunities are.

In terms of some of the initia tives ongoing in tourism today, I'm extremely pleased to have had the opportunity, and continue to have the opportunity, to work with the industry on the Tourism 2000: A Vision for the Future initiative which was announced in September of 1991 and is intended to dovetail with the Toward 2000 initiative of the government of the province of Alberta.

When we review the main driving industries in the province of Alberta and see that we have oil and gas as number one and agriculture as number two, surprise, surprise: tourism is number three, with the potential to grow substantially over time. It's extremely important that this initiative of Tourism 2000 has been created by the minister to ensure that we do plan for the balance of this decade and into the 21st century where tourism should be going. 12:30 That's not a decision that's made by government on its own, Mr. Chairman.

If we just take a look briefly at the makeup of the Toward 2000 Advisory Panel, it's pretty obvious that the minister has his thumb firmly on the pulse of tourism in the province of Alberta, because while I have the honour of acting as a co-Chair on that initiative, Joe Couture, the president of the Tourism Industry Association of Alberta, is the other co-Chair. We have representatives on the advisory panel from industry, from our educational facilities, planners in the province of Alberta, municipal authorities, and also our financial community: all very, very important components.

The mandate of that initiative is to ensure that we go out, get input from industry partners, get input from the peop