Manitoba Hansard — 5 December 1994 (Sitting 3A, 35th Legislature, 6th Session)

35-6-3a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Sixth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Spealcer Vol. XLIV No. 3A - 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 5, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature MeiDbers. Constituencies and Political Aft"diation .liaJu QwstilumQ ASHTON, Steve Thompson BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington CERILLI, Marianne Radisson CHOMIAK, Dave K.ildonan CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose DACQUAY,Louise Seine River DFRKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DBW AR, Gregory Selkirk DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Cllf Interlake EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon.

Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield FRIESFN, Jean Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Gll..LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Cl"escentwood HFL WER, Edward Gimli IUCKES, George Point Douglas KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples LAMOUREUX. Kevin Inkster LAnn..IN, Oscar The Pas LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Nornert MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek McCORMICK, Norma Osborne Mc<:FLAJB,James,HorL Brandon West MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Aslliniboia MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. Riva-East ORCHARD, Donald, Hon.

Pembina PALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PENNER, Jack Emerson PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet ' REID, Daryl Transcona REIMER, Jack Niakwa RFNDER, Shirley St. Vital ROBINSON, Brie Rupertsland ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Gladstone ROSE, Bob Turtle Mountain SANTOS, Conrad Broadway SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. K.irldield Parle SVEINSON, Ben La V erendrye VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort 3arry WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River Vacant River Heights Vacant Flin Flon ram NDP NDP NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. Ub. P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. NDP Ub. P.C. Ub. P.C. NDP Ub. Ub.

NDP P.C. NDP NDP P.C. NDP P.C. Ub. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP P.C. P.C. NDP NDP P.C. P.C. P.C. NDP

41 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 5, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Carla Tumer, Shama Wald, .Aarm Tumer and others mging the Minister respoosible for Education (Mr. Manness) to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Physical Education in Schools Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the hmourable DEDber (Mr. Lamoureux).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of this House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: 1be Clerk will read Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned residents of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: lHAT in July 1994, the Minister of Education introduced an action plan entitled Renewing Education: New Directions; lHAT this report will make physical education an optional course in Grades 9 to 12; lHAT the physical education curriculum should be regularly reviewed to ensure that it meets the needs of students; lHAT the government is failing to recognize the benefits of physical education such as improved physical fibless, more active lifestyles, health promotion, self-discipline, skill development, stress reduction, strengthened peer relationships, weight regulation, stronger bones, reduced risk of health diseases and improved self-confidence.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly mge the Minister responsible for Education to consider reinstating physical education as a compulsory core subject area. TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: Under the Freedom of Information Act, in accordance with

Section 42 of The Ombudsman Act, I am pleased to table the 24th Annual Report of the Ombudsman, covering the calendar year January 1, 1993, to December 31, 1993. Also, I have the privilege of tabling the Annual Report oo Tbe Becti(J)S Finances Act covering the period from January 1, 1993 to December 31, 1993. Hoo. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the annual statistics for the Departtnent of Health for 1992/93. In addition, I am pleased to table the Annual Reports for '92/93 and '93/94 of the Manitoba Health Research Council. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this aftemoon Mr. E'.d Connery, the former member for Portage Ia Prairie. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon.

42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 •

(1335) Speaker's Statement Mr. Speaker: I have a statement for the House. As members know, the Manitoba Legislative Internship Program has been in operation since 1985. Each year a total of six intems are chosen for the program Again this year, two intems have been assigned to each of the three caucuses. Their tenn of employment is 12 months. Dming their term, intems perform a variety of research and other tasks for private members as distinct from ministers.

My pwpose today is to announce the names of the six young people who are serving as Manitoba's 1994-95 legislative intems. 'lbey colll1llf:DCe their assignments at the beginning of September. Working with the government caucus are Ms. Laura Gareau of the University of Manitoba and Brandon University and Ms. Kerry McQuarrie of Queen's University and Brandon University. Working with the caucus of the official oppositim are Ms. Inez Vystren of the University of Manitoba and Mr. Mark Hudson of the University of Manitoba. Working with the caucus of the second opposition party are Mr.

Kris Saxberg of the University of W'mnipeg and the University of Manitoba and Ms. Jane Gray of the University of Winnipeg. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Also with us this afternoon, we have seated in the public gallery from the Sisler High School thirty Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Richard Pesik. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Also from the O.V. Jewitt School, we have eighly Grade 5 students under the dilection of Mrs. Rhonda Beddome. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for 1he Maples (Mr.

Kowalski). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you all here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mining Industry Acddental Deaths Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the acting Premier or the Minister ofLabom. Over the last 18 nmths, we have been listening to people in occupations of mining who are very concemed about the fact that four miners have lost their lives tragically in Manitoba between May of 1993 and May of 1994. They are very concemed, Mr.

Speaker, that they have adequate protection and adequate safety measures to ensure that their sd:ty will be protected in the mines of Manitoba. Four deaths is something which all of us, I am sure, are very concerned about. I would like to ask the minister responsible or the acting Premier. Have any of these deaths that have been investigated by the Department of Labour and the mining department that reports to the minister, the mining safety department, could any of these deaths have been prevented with adequate sd:ty ~in place in our mines in Manitoba? Hon. Darren Pramik (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, I would say to the Leader of the Opposition, who raises a very important set of issues in safety and health in the workplace, and I would report to this House that in many of these instances, yes, those deaths could have been prevented if proper workplace safety and health procedures bad been followed often by the people who are killed in the acritbJt or in the operation of the mine. We as a department take these things very seriously and have been working with the unions and with the companies involved to ensure that

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 43 people are fully aware of risk and at all times follow proper procedures to eliminate or reduce that risk. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I am disappointed with the minister's answer. Often people in occupations of mining have to follow dictates by the company and have to be backed up by the government's department ofW orkplace Safety and Health. I have a report, Mr.

Speaker, prepared by the ministeis own Mine Inspection Safety Branch that says that the company agreed to certain safety procedures after the first death in January of 1994, the first fatality, but had not implemented them to avoid the second fatality. They had not implemented the policies five months after the government department had been involved in a fatality in January of 1994. I would ask the minister: Why did the company not follow the instructions of the government Safety depllltlntt dealing with mine safety? Why did we have a sc:cmd fatality basically the same as the first fatality, Mr.

Speaker, that was documented to the government? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is right in indicating clearly to the House that following the first fatality at the mine in question orders were issued with respect to taking the proper precautions. I think, in the instance that the member is refening to, it was having a secure risk [phonetic] at the shaft where ore was being dumped in with a very large piece of equipment.

Consequently, by not following through on those orders, that matter is currently with the Department of Justice, as we are preparing to take the appropriate legal steps for a breach of that act. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, these are mining incidents, four deaths. The minister's first response was to talk about the fact that the workers themselves did not follow through on procedures. They, of course, are working for companies and uwst follow, unfortunately-or fortunately-the instructions of the employer and the companies. Mr.

Speaker, we had agreements in place in January of 1994 to have safety measures put in place to prevent future deaths that had occurred in January of 1994. The government's own depllltlntt says that the company agreed to safety procedures after the first fatality but had not implemented them to avoid the second fatality. I would ask the government: Where was the ministry, where was the department that the minister is responsible for? Why was this order and this agreenrnt not implemented?

Why did we not prevent the second death after we were well aware of the conditions that led to the first unfortunate fatality in a very similar situation 7 Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that our Mines Inspection Unit, our officers in that particular branch are in the mines of Manitoba on a regular basis trying to ensure that regulations are met and complied with. I will take as notice his question with respect to timing, because I certainly want to double check the information he brings to this House.

I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that where in fact there has been a breach of that act, we take those things very seriously. In this case this mine has likely, if they have not already, been charged under that particular act.

With refi::rence to one of the ongoing issues, not in this particular case but in some others certainly-1Uld I have had discussions with members of the United Steelworkers of America, which is the union that represents many people in the mining industry, that there are problems with compliance due to the fact that often-not in this particular case-the kind of reporting back procedures that we need to alert us to a particular problem do not happen because the particular regulation creates an inconvenience in the workplace that often people are not prepared to live with.

That is unacceptable and they have said to me that we have to work to improve that as

44 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 well. It is a mdtifilceted approach that is needed, Mr. Speaker. •

(1340) Youth Crime Prevention Programs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, me year ago on December 4 the Summit on Youth Crime and Violence made 700 recommendations stressing prevention, a higher priority on programs affecting clilldren and the family and the need to analyze every government decision to see how it impacts on families. Since the summit, this government has just cut away at prevmtative programs. This govemment's policies are breeding crime in Manitoba, in fact, the highest rate of violent youth crime in Canada, the only province where crime is on the increase. Mr.

Speaker, givm that there is no organization, no implementation committee, no co-ordinated effort to implement the recommendations of the swmnit, would the Acting Minister of Justice finally ensure that such a body is put in place? Hon. Darren Praznik (Acting Minister ~ Justice): Mr. Speaker, I can say first of all to the meniJec forSt Jdms that this government and my colleague the Minister of Justice and Attomey General (Mrs. Vodrey) take very seriously the issue of crime, and has worked very hard to put in place many of the types of things that government can do to deal with the crime issue.

I would remind members opposite that crime is not mtirely an issue that government controls, that there are responsibilities that rest with the comnnmity. That was part of that whole summit. I will take the rest of the member's question as notice. I am sure the Minister of Justice will have a greater detailed answer to the member's question. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, even given that the Minister of Justice has made certain promises that commitments would be made to Manitobans to ~ youth violence and crime in Manitoba, would the acting minister tell Manitobans what ever happened to the provincial council on youth crime as promised by the Justice minister? What ever happened to her youth advisory council, as promised by the minister? What ever happened to her expanded mandate for Youth Justice Committees as promised by the minister? What ever happened to her military- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Order, please. Mr.

Pramik: Mr. Speaker, I will take the bu1k of the ~s question as notice for specific detail, but the meniJec asks the question as if he has been out of the province for the last six months, because I can tell the member forSt Johns that in the area of improving the punishment and rehabilitation side of bringing in the youth camps and the work camps, they have been acted on. In fact, I can tell the member there is one in my cmstitucncy right now, so I do not know where the member has been for the last six months. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, Mr.

Speaker, given only the government's unfulfilled nine-point plan, as the Justice minister called it, and given the Speech from the Throne, which did not even mention any of the recommendations from the summit report, would the acting minister, on behalf of the g0Ye~IDD2ll, on behalf of the Justice minister, now apologize to those 500 people who gave their time and ideas at the SUIDllit a year ago, and now admit that aloog with the report of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, the report on the war against drugs, the summit report has now been buried? Mr. Praznik: Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I will again take this question as notice on behalf of the minister, but I have to say to the member, again, where has the meniJec been? Many parts of that program have been implemented They are there and I notice that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister has said he is taking it as notice.

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 45 •

(1345) Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Spending Criteria Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries corporation. The Speech from the Throne tabled last week indicates at page 3: "Spending taxpayers' dollars smarter has been our guiding principle . . . . As a result, more of every tax dollar is directed to the highest priority .... " The Conservatives have ~ejected our proposal for a child nutrition program across the province, a fetal alcohol syndrome initiative, a rural children's dental program.

They have rejected all of those that have come forward. At the sllliiC tim:, we have leamed that they have sanctiCilCd a $20,000 expenditure for a Winnie the Pooh statue for London, England for the London Zoo. Where is it that that project of $20,000 for a Winnie the Pooh statue for the people of England fits into the criteria of spending for the highest priority areas? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Ad): Mr. Speaker, I would point out to the Leader of the Liberal Party that the Manitoba Lotteries corpomtion mises the money.

If you look at pages 17 and 18 of the most recent teport it will show you that any surplus monies ate turned over to the government of Manitoba. The government of Manitoba then determines in its budget process, dutifully outlined in all of the budget docum:ns, Estimates, spending and so on, where it intends to spend its money. So the Lotteries corpomtion is not spending any l1lODeY on a Winnie the Pooh statue no matter how good a project it may or may not be. The fact of the matter is that the Lotteries corpomtion does not do that. Mr.

Edwards: I assume that the government does have control over the spending priorities of the Lotteries corpomtion, so that is why I am asking the minister. To add insult to injury, this $20,000 is going to a sculptor from Saskatoon, Mr. Michael Bpp. Where does paying a Saskatchewan sculptor $20,000 for a statue to go to England fit within the Making Good Things Happen brochure and ad campaign, which was handed out last week at the UMM convention?

Where in this pamphlet is there a line, is thetc a program, that would sanction the highest priority, as the government says, spending $20,000 for a statue produced in Saskatchewan to go to London, England? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party did not listen to my first answer. I told him the Lotteries corporation does not spend that money. The money the Lotteries corporation makes goes to the government, sits in a trust fund within the Department of Finance, so let the :o:miJer not tty and cmfuse the facts as he does on a regular basis.

With respect to that brochure, it was he and the Leader of the NDP who called for a fact sheet. They want the public to know what the facts of the matter ate, where the money is spent, and that is exactly what the Lotteries corporation did Mr. Edwards: If it was a fact sheet, Mr. Speaker. 'Ibe fact is that money is being spent to pay sadptors in Saskatoon to send statues to London, England. I have a final question for the minister. Mr. Don Leitch, the Oerk of Executive Council-whom we might call the Orand Pooh-Bah-told the sculptor in Saskatoon not to say anything publicly on this.

My final question for the minister: Who is allocating this mooey within the government? Why is Don Leitch ordering this statue be produced in Saskatoon and that the sculptor not talk publicly about this?

46 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the question of a Tomism project with respect to which the member refers falls under the responsibility of the Minister oflndustiy, Trade am Tourism (Mr. Downey) and on his behalf I will take that question as notice. •

(1350) Health Care Facilities Funding Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, last week the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the chief accountant for the province announced a 2 percent cut to hospital fundings next year. Can the Minister of Health advise whether this 2 percent cut for next year is in addition to the 2 percent as a result ofFilmon Fridays last year, as well as the $20 million cut from two years ago directed towaros the hospitals? Hon. James McCrae (Minister or Health): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable IJli:DJber claims on the one hand to be in favour of directing funds to comnumity services in the delivery of health care and prevention services, and then he raises the issue about where that money is coming from. There is no secret where that money is coming ftom. That money is being directed from the acute care sector into the comnumity care sector. That has been the plan since the spring of 1992. It has been a plan that the honourable member pmportedly supports. His Leader takes a far more constructive view of this thing than the honourable member does. All of this is being done, Mr.

Speaker, with the clear understanding between the Department of Health and all of the facilities that these changes will be canied out with the bottom line of care for patients not being compromised being that bottom line. That is the understanding we have. Indeed, as we go forward into the budget process the honourable member will have laid out for him all of the various areas in the commmity where these dollars will be laid out, but the throne speech does give a few hints about where those dollars will be going. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the minister th~fore can explain why, given this scenario to develop next year, that personal care homes will get less money even given the 1 percent increase that they have announced, will get less money even though they have to deal with more people, than they got two years ago from this govemment. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that the long-term care program and the persmal care component of that is DDJch healthier in the last few years than it ever was under the previous New Democratic administration.

We have built hundreds and hundreds of new persmal care home spaces for elderly and disabled people in Manitoba, am while we are pleased with our progress in that area we recognize and acknowledge that there is always going to be pressure on that system as long as we continue in society. Our older population and our disabled population are going to need that kind of care, and that is where you have seen a major emphasis on the part of this government. I would not want to go back to the days when the honourable member's colleagues were in charge of the Health department. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I have a final supplementary to the minister who just contradicted himself between his first answer and his second answer. Can the minister indicate whether or not this year the department has on a one-time basis indicated it will pay the deficit of at least one city of Winnipeg hospital, and will it be paying the deficit for the other hospitals as well? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the hospital surpluses and deficits and ongoing financial relationship between them and the Department of Health is subject to annual discussion between the hospitals am the Department of Health, and those

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 47 disrussioos will be going forward as we move into the next fiscal year. I think it is noteworthy that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) has attempted to be responsive to the concems of the facilities in Manitoba by coming out earlier with a general description of where we expect to be going in the upcoming fiscal year. Manitoba Telephone System Rate Increase Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, earlier today the Manitoba Society of Seniors and the Consumers' Association ffied a motion in Federal Court of Appeal against the proposed hike oflocal telephone rates. I will table a copy of the motion for the benefit of the members opposite. Mr. Speaker, this increase in rates will unfairly ilqlact upon seniors, low-income Manitobans and Manitobans on fixed incomes. My question is for the minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System Will he support this court action? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administratioo of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr.

Speaker, I want to use this opportunity to explain to the IlleiOOe.r what process is going on. 'The CRTC is now the regulator of all the telcos across Canada with the exception of Saskatchewan. CRTC, in its wisdom, held a series of hearings across Canada over the last 21 months.

They came down with a ruling called 94-19, which the member is referring to, which said that telcos bad the right to apply for a rate rebalancing process, which is $2 a month increase January 1 in each of the next three years plus an equal financial reduction in long distance rates, so that it will be revenue neutral for the telcos and for the majority of telephone subscribers who have both local charges and loog distance. All phone bills average around $30 to $35, with the local cost being $15. Evety user of a telephone service will see a small rise on me side, a decrease on the other side. But, Mr.

Speaker, I want the member to know very clearly, that is not a final decision. CRTC asks that the telcos apply in the course of December to drtennine whether their reductions in long distance rates are acceptable to CRTC. 1he Manitoba Telephone System has now made that ffiing to CR.TC. [intetjection] If the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) would like to answer the question, maybe the member for Selkirk would ask it of him That process is ongoing.

Right now we are in what is called a public process for CR.TC to hear input from all citizens of every province of this country as to whether they should abide by the applications received from the telcos in each province. So it is an ongoing public process the member is talking about, and the application he is referring to, they should make that application to CR.TC. *

(1355) Mr. Dewar: It is unfortunate this minister and this govenmrnt will not support seniors on a iJXed income in the province. In 1990 this minister promised that there would be public input into any decisions regarding telephone rates. My question is: Why has he not honomed this agreement? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear to that member that we support seniors, we support all Manitobans. We have information that shows, for people ~er 55, the majority of their phone bills are long distance. So we want them to have the savings.

Our positioo. is, we want to be sure that CR.TC, in their process right now, make sure that the savings come back to average Manitobans, all Manitobans. That is the process we are in.

48 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 We, in our MOU, which the member says we are not abiding by, it requests a public process. That public process is going on right now. CRTC is teceiving input from people who want to object to what the telcos have filed in regard to 94-19. I will ask very seriously that CRTC be SlUe that all Manitobans are treated Wdy and to be SlUe that it is a revenue-neutral option if they approve it. 911 Emergency Service Rural Manitoba Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I hope the minister will table that information for members on this side of the House.

My final question for the minister is: When will rural and northern Manitobans receive the 911 emergency service? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister responsible for the administratioo of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, we have been going through a long process to tty to have 911 service available for all Manitobans. We will, by the beginning of 1996, have the entire province digitalized and private lines in all homes. 1hat is essential for an effective 911 service. 1bere will be a cost for the process, and we will have to go through a process tocheuni•r: ifManitobans will be prepared to pay that cost.

I congratulate the City of Brandon, which is looking at bringing more nnmicipalities into that process out in that region of the province. The fimdamentals to have 911-[ioterjection] I think we will give the credit to the mayor of Brandon, not to the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts Renovations Ms. A vis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health released the Macintosh report last week, which rec()Til1llC"Jlde offering the Metropolitan Kiwanis Courts board money for n:novatioos of the existing seniors housing so that in fact seniors would not be displaced In the nr.antime, however, the City of Winnipeg has also allowed a zoning variance for the Metropolitan Kiwanis Cowts so that they could oontinne or begin to develop their condominiums, Can the minister tell this House if the Metropolitan Kiwanis Cowts board has accepted the offer of assistance for renovations from this government, and will they be proceeding with those renovations?

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I am not able, Mr. Speaker, to tell the honourable member wbat the Metropolitan Kiwanis board has decided to do or not do to this point. However, I have mged the concerned citizens of St. James, and I have urged the Metropolitan Kiwanis board to get together and discuss the appropriate use for that property for the years ahead I have also said that the province, the Department of Health will make dollars available to assist in implementing the third recommendation set out by Mr. Macintosh in his report. Mr.

Speaker, I have not yet heard of the results of any discussioos that might have flowed from the Idease of Mr. Macintosh's report, but I do urge all the parties to dialogue and discuss and reach some agreements. I have made Mr. Dale Berry of our Capital Construction Branch available to all the parties to take

part in the discussions to indicate what role and what level-negotiate if necessary what level of support would be forthcoming from the Department of Health. •

(1400) Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, the concerned citizens feel that the minister and his department need to get more directly involved and not aoly need to encourage a meeting between Metropolitan Kiwanis and the concerned citizens, but actually need to take the leadership in setting up that meeting. Can the minister tell us if his office is prepared to actually set up that meeting so in fact we can find out exactly what is going to happen if those rcnovatioos will proceed with the assistance of the

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 49 government? Mr. McCrae: Through the efforts of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), Mr. Speaker, and my department, we have been very, very directly involved over a fairly long period of time. We indeed want to have the parties come together. In fact, I believe that may be reason for some concem, that the parties indeed have not been to the extent that might be desired working as closely together as might be desiJM. So if there is some indication that my offices can be of any assistance, we will be of assistance.

But I remind the honourable member that it was the Macintosh report she referred to in her first question, and it was through the initiative of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek and my office that we were able to obtain the services of Mr. Macintosh, who dkl a lot of work to interview all of the various people involved. So we have been involved, we are involved and we will be involved, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary to the Minister of Health. I beaid the member for Sturgeon Creek indicate it was done, the meeting is done.

Can the minister then tell us: Will he ensure that in fact all of the concerned citizens and the lead m:mbers of that group whom I spoke with at one o'clock this aftemoan are in fact told of this upcoming m:eting and when it will be so that they are aware and that we can proceed with having the renovations done? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek and l-it was just last week I believe-met with the concemed citizens of St. James. The honourable member for Sturgeon Creek and I have met with members of the Kiwanis board.

So I think that with the help of the Macintosh report we hope that we can see some progress. But, as I said to the honourable member previously, should there be some fmther role, appropriate role, considering that this is not a government project, this is the Kiwanis organization working with the commmity, I am quite happy to be involved, but I do not want to be more involved than we should be. There are certain bounds of what is the right thing to do when you are dealing with a comnumity organization.

But we have certainly demonstrated by what we have done so far that we are prepared to take a role where that is appropriate to do in the interests of the seniors in that neighbouthood, Mr. Speaker. Canadian Wheat Board Government Support Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, for the last few months, the Canadian Wheat Boaro has been under a tremendous amount of attack, and we have not heard this government's position on whether or not they will defend the Wheat Board.

Westem Canadian farmers have spoken very clearly in the elections of the Wheat Board Advisory Committee that they do want the nmopoly of the Canadian Wheat Board retained. I want to ask the Acting Minister of Agriculture if he will now state very clearly that this govemment will support the Canadian Wheat Boaro and stand with Canadian farmers who have stated very clearly that they want the monopoly of the Wheat Board retained. Hon. Glen Findlay (Acting Minister ~ Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, I will take the question as notice for the Minister of Agriculture, but I will agree with the member opposite that the Wheat Boaro has done a good job over the course of SOire 60 years for the province of Manitoba and western Canada as a whole. Nobody is disputing that point, nobody at all and certainly not this government. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eons) will comment fmther.

50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, since farmers have spoken very clearly that they want the monopoly retained, but the federal government is proposing to hold cmsultatim. m:etings to discuss the Wheat Board, will this Minister of Agriculture or Acting Minister of Agriadture oormmmicate to the federal Minister of Agriculture that the~ is no need fO£ consultations? Th~ is no need to hold these meetings. The fiunas have voted. They have said they want the monopoly retained. Let us retain the monopoly. Mr. Findlay: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I think ooe thing I will say for this government, we believe in consultation. The NDP party says no to consultation. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eons) is m:eting with his couoteJparts across the countty in about 10 days time, and I am very ~ it will be a discussion point. Whether the federal Liberal govemment follows the member's advice remains to be seen. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, I think the minister was inaccurate in his statement, in saying we do not believe in consultation. The farmers were consulted and the farmers have voted.

Farmers want the Wheat Board retained, and we are asking you to state very clearly that you will also support the Wheat Board and stand with farmers. That is the position we are asking you to take, and this govel'DIIJent has not taken that positim. yet. I ask them if they will state clearly that they are behind the Wheat Board and that the~ is no need to make changes to the Wheat Board. Mr. Findlay: Well, I think, Mr. Speaker, I have already answe~ that question earlier, that we believe the Wheat Board bas dooe a very good job. As to the fact that the~ should be no changes, nothing stands still in this society.

The Wheat Board has been changing too in ~sponse to what farmers want to see it do, so it is changing, evolving over the course of time. I will ask the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eons) to put it on his agenda for his discussim. with the federal minister. I am SUie the results of the recent Wheat Board Advisory Committee vote will have some bearing m. what will happen with regard to the federal govel'DIIJent and that issue, but we agree certaioly that the Wheat Board has done a very good job for farmers in western Canada for a long period of time.

I will also tell the member it nmst continue to evolve as farmers need it to evolve. Headingley, Manitoba Capital Debt Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. As we know, the provincial cabinet has overruled the Municipal Board ~cently and has Oidered the city to pay half the capital debt of the breakaway Municipality of Headingley which will cost the Winnipeg taxpayers over $300,000. Why did the cabinet oveaule the Municipal Board m. this matter, or why should the residents across Winnipeg pay $300,000 in additim.al taxes to Headingley? Hon.

Unda Mcintosh (Minister or Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I should indicate first of all that cabinet did not ovemde. From the beginning, because of the uniqueness of this situation, it was always detennined that the Municipal Board in this instance would recommend and that cabinet would examine the recommendations in light of the circumstances. The Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) is the lead minister on this, and I will take that as advisement in case he wants to add more detail than I am able to offer h~.

I can indicate that the item that the particular mcailer is ~ferring to was one in which there was a dispute over whether or not the~ should have

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51 been an operating grant or operating mooey or capital money, it being done one way unmicipally and another way as a rule in the city. The decision of cabinet was to take the mkklle point between the two as a compromise for both positions, and that indeed is what happened, Mr. Speaker, a very fair solution, I believe. Mr. Schellenberg: You are the Minister of Urban Affairs, therefore you are responsible. You have not given me real underlying reasons for this. The boaid bas given its recommendation, and you have overruled it.

Docs your cabinet not have faith in the decision of this board? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that was imputing motives or not. I sincerely hope it was not, and I am not going to dlargc that it was. I would just indicate that in this instance, Mr. Speaker, the Municipal Board, which deals primarily with items coming before rural mmicipalitics was asked to make a precedent type of decision in terms of dealing with divisions of assets and liabilities regarding the City of Winnipeg. This is not something that bas historically happened.

Therefore, the decision was made that they would make a recommendation to cabinet, and cabinet would make the decision since the Municipal Board deals normally mly with rural nmnicipalitics. The City of Winnipeg will sOilDimes use operating money for things such as drainage.

Sometimes it can be treated as capital or operating depending on where the thing is located In this instance, there was a dispute over whether or not the mcoey which was used for drainage should have been the operating versus capital. 1he cabinet took a look at that and decided that since there was merit in both arguments, it would take the mkklle ground, compromise 50-50, take it down the middle, and that decision, I believe, Mr. Speaker, is a very fair decision. Mr. Schellenberg: Once again the cabinet is offioading c:n the inner city. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to Handi-Transit, they do not believe in 50- 50.

How JDJch in additional property taxes will residents in Winnipeg have to pay because of this cabinet decision? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Speaker, with regard to Handi- Transit, the member knows full well that the City of Winnipeg was given a tremendous amount of money over and above what it received the year before-a 5.2 percent increase in total fimding last year, with the additional monies still to come from the 25 percent, and that the city was told very clearly by me and by other members of this government that they had $4 million in unronditic:nal VLT rcvmucs from which they were free, in fact, encouraged by this government, but not ordered, encouraged to take $400,000 from that and apply it to Handi-Transit. The city chose not to do that.

The n:anber wants me to start ordering them to do things in setting their budget for them, but let him tell me that he wants me to take over control of the City of Winnipeg budget and take away their local autonomy to make decisions. They have always argued for a block grant and a block grant is what they got. If they choose not to apply it to Handi-Transit, that is their decision. I made the request. The money was there. They made a different decision. They will also make decisions regarding taxation for their citizens, and I hope that they will continue to be diligent in their efforts to arrive at zero. •

(1410) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, our rules are quite clear that the govemrrxnt does not have to answer questions, but if they do choose to answer, it should relate to the question raised, which in this case was: How mx:h will the city of Winnipeg taxpayers have to pay for the actions of this government?

52 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 Mr. Speaker: OnJer, please. In the

preamble, as set out by the honourable member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), he quite clearly indicated about the Handi-Transit. I believe the honourable minister responded to that. The honourable member does not have a point of order. Taking Charge! Program Implementation Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, my questioo is for the Minister of Family Services. Throughout the F'rlth Sessic:n of this Legislature, the Minister of Family Services announced many, many times the joint federal-provincial initiative directed to the employment and training of single panms.

The announcement predicted a start date for September 1994, but the project's cOIDDI.JDity board has not yet been appointed. Will the minister provide this House with a commitmc:ot as to when the C()IDIDimity board will be appointed so that the project can begin? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we were really c:othusiastic about getting the announcement made and the taking-charge initiative up and nmning.

I know that we were ready as a province back in May, and there were some delays as a result of bureaucratic discussion between the two levels of govenmx:nt Finally, the announcement was made at the beginning of September. I am really pleased that we have had the opportunity, both lloyd Axworthy and I, to discuss potential members to the board, and I believe that there will be an announcement made very sooo. regatding the composition of that board. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, will the minister provide this House with a firm date as to when the participants will be selected to come into the project? Mrs.

Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, as this is a federal and provincial initiative, it will be a joint decision between the federal government-bee federal cousins-and my department. We look forwud with anticipation to having the board up and running fairly soon and an office open and ready for business in the New Year. Ms. McCormick: My final supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister conunit that the provincial funds promised to be conunitted in this initiative will be expended in the 1994-95 fiscal period? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, this is a federal and provincial initiative.

The fuods will be expended on an as-needed basis as the office is up and nmning. Mr. Speaker, I have indicated this is a joint initiative, and maybe she should talk to her federal aJUSins and see whether their dollars will be spent in the 1994-95 fiscal year. When the office is up and nmning, we will be spmding the dollars that will be required to ensure that single parents are dealt with in a vecy expeditious and humane manner. Manitoba Hydro Corporate Housing- Taxation Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr.

Speaker, last week, in Gillam, I had an opportunity to meet with the local residents there in a public meeting. They informed me that in 1991, Revalue Canada ruled that Gillam qualified as a remote wOiksite and, as such, employer provided housing was not a taxable benefit. Only last December, Revenue Canada said they would honour their 1991 ruling until the end of 1993. However, since then, Mr. Speaker, Revenue Canada has now overturned that ruling and is now saying that etq>l~ in Gillam nmst pay taxes on corporate housing for the years 1991 to 1993 and present.

For most residents affected, this will amount to as nmch as $4,000 each.

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 53 I want to ask the Acting Minister responsible for H}dro this afternoon: What action is he prepared to take to support the people of Gillam? If indeed the fudem1 minister refuses to rescind this tax grab, what position will the minister take? Ron. Glen Cummings (Acting Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to take that as notice on behalf of the responsible minister. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Second Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the second day of debate, on the proposed motion of the hooourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the session, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I defer this on behalf of our Leader. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Just for the recoid, the honourable member for Thompson, you are aware of the fact that you have actually spoken now in the Throne Speech Debate. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I will speak on the budget. Mr.

Speaker: On the budget. Okay, that is fine. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Thompson for taking this adjournment for me. Mr. Speaker, 1995 is the fifth year of the government. This is the sixth Speech from the Throne, which is the most numbers of Speeches from the Throne by any government that we can see in 125 years of history of any government holding on to their mandate to the last possible moment. No other government in Manitoba has gone to this rwch length to hold on in terms of their own mandate.

We would have preferred to have an election in 1994 than in the rehashed ideas, repackaged ideas of the Conservative Party of Manitoba. I would point out, Mr. Speaker, the parties that go to the end of their mandate--Grant Devine, Brian Mulroney, Bill Vander Za1m and Rita Johnston, Richani Hatfield-have not done that well.

Not only have they lost government when they have held on for this long a period of time, but they have lost their whole party by holding on because the people over a period of time know 'Whl:n a govc;~m• rot is just holding on for their own good and have lost the whole motivation of worldng for Manitobans' good. People know that. Mr. Speaker, 1995 is our 125th anniversary. It marks a date that we can all commemorate with pride, with honour. Of course, Manitoba was established as a province close to 125 years ago.

Of course, contributions from people like Louis Riel and the Metis people joining in with First Natioos and people from all across the world made Manitoba their home. They built a great and wonderful province in this wonderful country of Canada, and we in the New Democratic Party salute our forefathers and foremothers who established Manitoba as a province and all the people who have made Manitoba a great place to live and to raise a family. •

(1420) Mr. Speaker, we want to salute the pioneering spirit of our homesteaders that established Manitoba as one of the parts of Canada that is the bread basket of our nation, and we want to salute the efforts of people that have gone before us to build up a telephone system, to build up a hydro system and also to build up a quality of services in this province, a health care service that is free of pre.mi.mm, unlike other provinces and an education system that over the }ears has been second to none in terms of world-class opportunities for people.

54 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 Manitoba has been a province that has required all of us to work together to build a place to live and raise a family, a place where we co-operate, a place where we believe sttongly in the values of hard woik and fair play, and we salute the contribution in this 125th year of our people that have gone before us, and we pledge to bring about again that spirit of hard work and co-operation to work to rebuild this province, because the government's Speech from the Throne indicates very cleady to us that they are both tired and I dare to say cynical.

They are tin::d and cynical, Mr. Speaker, and you can see it in every line of this very last, sixth Speech from the 'Ibrme of their second term. You can see the cynicism, you can see the fatigue, you can see the lack of energy, you can see the yawns ofboredomacross the way, and, of comse, people want energy and fairness here in Manitoba. If ever there was evidence of a government that was tired, it is their Speech from the Throne in their fifth year of their second mandate and their Speech from the Throne in their sixth year of their secmd muvJate.

I mean, what kind of intellectual fatigue and laziness do we have when a government can take close to 20 percent of their speech and xerox it from the year before? Maybe people are too busy galavanting on the Great Wall of Olina and cannot spend enough time writing another Speech from the Throne, or maybe, just maybe they are too tired and too out of energy to write a unique speech to deal with the unique year we face here in Manitoba. Let me give you another example of how tired and how lacking in energy and commitment the members opposite have for the province moving into this next year.

Agriculture-agriculture gets two or three lines in a Speech from the Throne from members opposite. Who wrote this speech? The bureaucrats and the government or people that are MLAs in their constituencies, because if yw listen to members opposite, they would talk about the great industry of agriculture in the province of Manitoba and how that is so important to the people of Manitoba. A couple of lines in the Speech from the Throne. Do you people really care about agriculture any more? Do you like these speeches? Do you have a vision for the future?

Do you have a position for today, or are you more interested in expanding gambling than you are in expanding agriculture opportunities here in Manitoba? Mr. Speaker, in agriculture we see nothing from members opposite about the Wheat Board. Do yw have no position? Have you become like Liberals, having no position at all on this, or do you have a position on orderly malketing? I used to remember the Conservative Party in Manitoba with a little energy and a party that had a vision and took a position. They have no position any more. They are sitting on the picket fence on this one, Mr. Speaker.

They have no position; they have no energy. They just want to play it safe. They do not want to offend anybody. They do not want to take any leadership on agriculture. They just want to sit in the weeds and take no position on the Wheat Board. We, in the New Democratic Party, are proud to take a position on Oldcdy JDillkding, and we are proud to put it out to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, do we see any position on the transportatioo provisioos? Do we see any position m. the transportatioo paym:nt? Again, no position at all.

Some of the producers want the mmey to go to the railway so that we can keep our system in place. Some of the producers want the mcney to go to the producer. What do the Tories do? Do they provide leadership? Do they provide energy? Do they have a policy? Do they have a vision? They have nothing. They have no position whatsoever. This is a govermnent that is clearly running on empty. They know it, we know it and everybody in Manitoba knows it. Oh, they can take a little minivan out evecy three weeks with little Filmon signs on it.

Evecy three weeks they would haul that little minivan out and sort of titillate the media about having a potential dection. When they take it out evecy three weeks and then they put it in the garage in November of 1994, they have no energy, they have no get-up and-go, they have no courage of their conviction.

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 55 They are just hanging on, and the only sounds we hear from members opposite are the sounds of fingemails going down the cliff as they hold on. •

(1430) Mr. Speaker, the second concern we have about the Speech from the Throne is how cynical members opposite are.

If you look at past Speeches from the Throne they used to use the WOld "reform." 'lben they have gone to "renewal." Really when you read a Speech from the Throne after Speech from the Throne and you finally get up to the eight that they have produced, the only thing we really see is repackaging, tepackaging not for the people of Manitoba for a future vision for this province, a repackaging not for what is best for the people of Manitoba in terms of a long-term plan for the people in this province, we only see tepackaging for the short-term renewal of the Progressive Conservative Party. 1he people of Manitoba will not give you a third term, because you have run out of ideas and all you are doing is tepackaging your material.

An Honourable Member: 1he fourth R is rejection. An Honourable Member: They will ~eject it, that is right. Mr. Doer: That was my last sentence. Mr. Speaker, cynical, cynical, cynical. Let us look at a couple of examples. In the Speech from the 1brooe-let us take a simple example, and then we will go into more complicated examples. Starting with a simple example, this is a government that says we are going to have a billioo dollars in tourism business in the province ofManitoba in the 1994 year and we are going to double it in six years to the year 2000.

What they do not tell you-and this is why they are cynical beyond belief-is when they came to office in 1988 it was alteady a billion-dollar industry. Do we need a government that is committed to keeping the status quo, a treadmill future for the people of Manitoba under the Conservative government? I mean, how do they have the nerve to tepackage status quo for six years as an achievement? I guess the reason why they can tepackage the status quo as an achievement for over six years is because almost everything else, we go backwards under the Conservative government.

I suppose the government opposite just hopes that nobody studies the facts from the past and can show that all they have done is go to zero in terms of growth in tourism, and this is when the dollar is down to 73 cents, but of course this government has no flexible strategy. They put in a marketing strategy a couple of years ago out of South Dakota, I think. You know, not a bad set of ads, Mr. Speaker, but did they change their strategy in mid-term this year when the dollar was plummeting down below 80 cents, down to 74 or 73 cents?

Did they change the advertising campaign to the United States and say, ~to Canada and take advantage of the low dollar? No, they could not do it. They had no flexibility, and that is why we have status quo from this government I guess they used tomism because we are almost to the same point as what they inherited in 1988, because if they were to take jobs and compare where we are from 1990 when they received a majority to today, we have less people working today than we did when they got a majority in 1990.

We have the unemployment rate going down, which is good for Manitoba, and we have some modest improvement over the last couple of months in terms of unemployment rate, but the question is: Why are we ninth out of 10 in provinces in terms of growth rate for jobs in Canada? Why are we eteating jobs and economic opportunity below the national average again and again? That is why people are leaving this province in out-migratioo numbers of some 43,000 people. •

(1440) We have said before that the only thing that is growing in this province is moving vans going to

56 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 the west coast and lotteiy revenues. Unfortunately, we are right and unfortunately the government is wroog in teJms of their economic strategy-cynical. cynical, cynical. Look at the whole issue in the Speech From the 1brooe about growth rate in Manitoba. Manitoba's growth rate, Mr. Speaker, has been last two out of the four years. Now, I know that menmers opposite have a new solution for the fact that we are lOth place.

When Stats Canada and the Financial Post and The Globe and Mail and Bank of Montreal and the Royal Bank and everybody else came out with stats to show that Manitoba was the mly provincial govemment in 1993 to go down in economic performance, by .9 percent, the government came out and said, Stats Canada is wroog. You cannot go by Stats Canada, Royal Bank, Bank of Montreal, the Conference Boatd, every other financial predictor.

You cannot go by them any more because we do not like what comes out Now, the Economist magazine, which has more credibility than members opposite in terms of financial analysis, has now called Stats Canada the finest statistical body in the world, but that is not good enough for the Conservatives. They are too cynical to accept the financial munbers of Stats Canada, and they have aeated their own set of numbers to show that Manitoba's economy is growing higher than the national average. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is a shame, that they cannot accept the reality the people in Manitoba are facing in terms of job performance, growth rates and economic activity in this province. The reason why they cannot accept it is that they are again cynically hoisted on their own petard (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) In 1990, they said after the election, Manitoba will have the strongest employment growth of any province and investment will grow at almost double the natiooal average. So what happened in 1991? We declined in our growth, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We declined by 4.6 percent, accOJ:ding to Stats Canada. We declined even accoJ:ding to Manitoba Bmeau of Statistics. Now how can the government say they are doing so well when, in 1991, both the Manitoba Bmeau of Statistics and Stats Canada had us declining by more than any other province in Canada? In 1992, again, the govemment, in its Speech from the 'I1nme, said that we are expected to have inaeased household purchase in durable goods, and we will see inaeased investment by business within the next few months. We will increase our investments again, and we will be out of the «:eession by the summer of 1992.

Well, were we out of the recession by 1992? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Doer: No. Were we out of the «:eession in 1993? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Doer: Were we out of the recession in 1994? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Doer: Oh, but now we are on the road to recovery out of the «:eession. Follow the yellow brick road, the members opposite say. Every year we have to follow the same road in the Conservative Party. An Honourable Member: I think I see the wizard. Mr.

Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, we do not see the wizaid at the end of the yellow brick road; we just see the wicked witch of the west over there in terms of policies here in this province. Like that great fairy tale, the economic policies of this government are melting. We will still see the cynicism after cynicism after cynicism because every year we hear how great Manitoba is going to do, and every year we are doing last place, seventh place, last place. Only once, in 1992, did we go above the national average in growth. So we had one good year and four bad years under the

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 57 Conservatives. Of course, people in Manitoba deserve nmch, nmch better. If they do not want to listen to Stats Canada, perhaps they should listen to their own Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. I wonder what the minister responsible for that bureau thinks when their own ministers can say, oh, we are mally not in tenth place, Stats Canada is wrong, when their own Manitoba Bumau of Statistics in both '91 and in '93 have also had you in tenth, last place. It is not a very, very happy occasion.

If you tead the Stats Canada report, no wonder they have put out a bulletin against Stats Canada. One wonders why a certain reporter reported on it, because when you look at the 10-year history, you will find, from 1983 to 1988, Manitoba exceeded the national growth rate evecy year and continued to do so in 1989. We had enough good things still left over for the govemment to take credit for between '88 and '89. Then, every year thereafter, except 1992, we were below the national average in growth.

Of course, the ODP is the measure of everything you do, evecy economic indicator, private sector, public sector, voluntary sector. It affects the commodity prices. Yes, some of it has not been good luck. I think that we would acknowledge, in 1993, the crop failure did have something to do with the downtum.

We are certainly willing to acknowledge that and other factors with this govemment, but how can we have an intelligent debate with people opposite when all they do is say that Stats Canada is wrong, the Bank of Montreal is wrong, the Royal Bank is wrong, the Conference Board is wrong, their own Bumau of Statistics is wrong? You cannot even have an intelligem debate with people because they are not willing to moe mality. They are cynical. They are repackaging. They do not cam about hope for Manitobans and opportunities for Manitobans.

They only care about repackaging themselves with rhetoric, not deeds, for their own attempt to get another five years from the people of Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, the other issue of cynicism, of course, is the whole issue of deficits. Now some governments that are dealing with deficits have taken deficits that have been very high, like in Saskatchewan, and are tcying to deal as fairly as they can to lower them I dare say that other govmunents in Canada are doing the same thing.

But this is the only govemment in Canada that has taken a surplus, wmstled it up to be a deficit of $762 million, and now wants to take credit and repackage itself as deficit fighters to reduce it down to zero. We wmstled it from zero up to 762, and you can pat us on the back for wmstling it down allegedly to zero in 1995.

Now, of course, we will never know what their deficit is because we know that what they say in their budget and what actually happens in their Public Accounts is sometimes off $100 million, sometimes off $190 million dollars, and, unfortunately, has been off over $350 million by members opposite. How can you be so cynical and have not ooc, not two, but three sets of books? A cartoon in the Fmc Press yestelday had the Premier (Mr. F'dmon) with two faces, but they were charitable to the Premier because the Premier is not two-faced, he is dm:c-filoed when it comes to the finances hem in Manitoba.

Is it not a shame, is it not a shame! Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not know how m::mbc:rs can live with themselves with these numbers. They know that the Auditor said that there was not a deficit in 1988 and '89. The Pmmiertabled the budget in '88-89. The Auditor's mport saki in 1988-89 there was a surplus. There was a surplus of $58 million. An Honourable Member: You supported the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. Mr. Doer: We supported the reduction in property tax, aedits for families; that is something that the member opposite did not do. If you want to vote against family tax credits, be my guest.

We have only voted for one Conservative budget in eight. Unlike the Liberals, we are not Pavlov's dog; we kind of look at things on its merit; and, if there is reduction of property tax credits-well, the m:mber for St. James (Mr. Edwards) voted against it. We voted for it, and we think we made the

58 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 right decision based on 1he merit of things. Now it is interesting, Madam Deputy Speaker, that even the Liberal Leader (Mr. Edwards), and I should mention this now. He is talking from his seat.

I should mention this now that in his own press conference a week ago when he was announcing that elaborate platform of theirs, that substantial tome of documents that they had out before us, even the Liberal Leader said, on the one hand, in the press conference that the government was left a surplus, and on the other hand there had been budget deficits for X number of years. So both things are right because, quite frankly, the budget and the actual Public Accounts are different. So the bottom 1ioe is, did we have an actual swplus of real money in 1988-89, and we did, and as the member for St.

James said, you are right, we did have a swplus in 1988 and in '89. Well, the bottom 1ioe is that the Conservatives have cynically raised the deficit to $762 million and are now cynically going to take credit for dropping the deficit. Now how are they going to drop the deficit? First of all, well, we know, why should we believe a government that has been off by over $500 million in two budget years? Is this a govea"""!l we can trust in 1995, or can we only believe that it is repackaging itself for purposes of its own re-election? They are going to bring in balanced budget legislation.

Will they do it retroactively to fire the present Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) and the former Minister of Finance? Willdley nun to stone as a consequence of this action, Madam Deputy Speaker? We 1hink not, because they have no intention of doing anything else but trying to repackage themselves cynically before an election. And the people are going to see through this, because oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive. You are going to get caught on it. You are better off to be honest. You are better off to be straight up.

You are better off to tell people the truth rather than to create this illusion. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Provincial Auditor reported a $58-million swplus in '88-89. In the budget of 1990, the govemment predicted 283-the actual budget was 3828 and so they were off 15 pen:a1t. In '91-92, they were on target. In '92-93, they were off by 126 percenL If the member for Portage (Mr. Pallister) wants to put in balance budget legislation, why is he not asking his own ministers to resign in Question Period instead of asking questions that are written by Barb Biggar and somebody else in the Premier's Office?

Why does he not ask his own Minister ofF'mance (Mr. Stefanson) about his own credibility? Madam Deputy Speaker, the budget deficit was $330 million in '92-93. The reported deficit was $566 million and the actual deficit was $748 million. In '93-94, they had a new Finance minister, a Finance minister that predicted a $367-million deticiL He reported $431 million. The actual was $458 million for a 24 percent variation and this was after you were getting gazillions of dollars from your lotteries. This was after the tax increases that came in 1992.

They 1hink they can repackage themselves as deficit fighters, but they aeated the deficit. I hope they lower the deticiL I hope they lower it through growdl and economic activity and job perfonnance, not just through lotteries, property tax inaeases, slush funds that they have available for them in Public Accounts and other gimmicks that they will use in the 1995 budget to again give themselves a repackaging. 'Ibe Premier gave the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Rmder) a copy of the 1988 budget and tabled it in this House. I will send to the member for St.

Vital a copy of the Auditor's Report showing a surplus in 1988-89. You know, it has to be pretty serious for members opposite when you have the Auditor's Report, Volume I-I would ask the member for Portage (Mr. Pallister) to read Volume I of the Auditor's Report. You know what? The Auditor's

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 59 Report in 1994 said, do not believe the statements from the provincial government in terms of its statements of accounts. You can ooly go by the Auditor's Report to get the truth in financial matters. What a horrible condemnation, Madam Deputy Speaker, of the members opposite. The other area of cynicism is the whole issue of taxation. Ziprick bad some good advice for all of us when he raised the issue in 1979 of the former Lym govermnent that two-thirds of the spending of the provincial government was outside of the direct control of the provincial Legislature.

Two thilds of the spending of the Lyon government, and under other governments, I might add, of Health and Educatioo did not ~ive the same scrutiny of investigation that some of the line departments m::eived in other areas of government service, and I have always read the deceased member Mr. Ziprick's reports. The member for Portage (Mr. Pallister) wants to talk about them. I am certainly willing to discuss them But I think that when one says the financial statenrnts cannot be relied upon for the provincial government, I think that is a shame, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I would think the member for Portage who is talking about the deficit budget legislatioo. would be quite ashamed with the record they had of$762 million and the fact that we have three sets of books in Manitoba with the existing Conservative government. I want to talk a little bit about taxation. The government in the Speech from the Throne talked about taxation. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government says, we did not raise any taxes. Well, I am a parent I was a parent in 1990, and I am a parent again in 1994.

It is a great privilege for some of us who are starting the back nine of our lives to be starting some of our experiences with cbildren, and I am very honoured, our family is very honoured, to have that privilege of having children, but I can tell you that my purchasing experience-and I would ask members here that are either parents or grandparents to think about this, what was the taxatioo.level on children and babies in 1990 and what is the taxation level on those same goods for children today? Is it the same? I would ask the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), is it the same? He is an honest man. Steinbadl (Mr.

Driedger}-both of them are honest. Is it the ~? No. Have you bought anything for your grandcbildren or your children, baby's clothing, baby's goods? An Honourable Member: Gary, you have knowledge about baby's clothing. Mr. Doer: I have some knowledge about this. Sleep deprivation and baby materials, that is what yw get knowledge of, and I can compare 1990 with 1994, and do not try to tell me there has been no tax incn:ase.

Do not try to tell me when you tax the nipples on babies bottles that there is no tax increase in terms of the province of Manitoba. 'lbere is, Madam Deputy Speaker, and again, you should not deceive-{inteijection] The member opposite said GST. The provincial sales tax has been expanded, and when you expand a tax, it is an increase in a tax. It is not a decrease in a tax. It is not freezing a tax. It is not a freeze, yw know. Re1:IaOOer George Bush. It is not a freeze. It is a tax increase. It is not that difficult to say it if it is true. It is an increase in taxes. If it gets more revenue, it is a tax increase.

It is not a tax decrease or a tax freeze. •

(1450) Now the other issue is, of course, the whole issue of property taxes. This government calls a reduction of the property tax credit a spending savings for the people of Manitoba. They do not call that a tax increase. Your taxes go up $75 per family in your household, but it is not a tax increase. Read my lips. It is a spending decrease again, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is a tax increase. The biggest concern that people have outside of this building is their property taxes in terms of the provincial government.

Let no Tory go to their constituents and tell them that they did not raise taxes after they expanded the sales tax and after they raised the property tax in the province of Manitoba. Just tell the truth. Do not try to cynically repackage yourselves, because if it does not bear the truth, then it is not

60 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5,1994 worth repeating. 'lbere is no sense saying something to people that is not true. That, of course, does not deal with the three and a half cents per litre that this Conservative govemment has raised with gasoline tax increases since they were elected in 1988, three and a half cents a litre. Metmers opposite who worked in the automotive industry know that full well and so do we.

So, Madam Deputy Speaker, those are a couple of examples on the financial side of increases in taxatim, of deficit facts instead of fiction in tenns of the history of this issue i:J.eie in the province of Manitoba We do not need three sets of numbers. I think all of us would be better served by not having a cynical pre-election campaign. I know you do not have any issues to run on. I know in the fiill of 1994 }'OU loobd around and you did not find an issue, and now you are going ahead and trying to find sODDbing else, but let it be a factual issue. You have some beliefs. You have some facts. Run on those.

Do not acate fiction and then try to run on fiction, because I suggest to you that when yoo do that, you are going to go the same way as Bill Vander Za1m and Rita Johnston. You are going to go the same way as Brian Mulroney. You are going to go the same way as Grant Devine. You are hanging on, hanging on. Run on issues you can run on. Do not run on issues that are fictiooal, Madam Deputy Speaker-cynical, cynical government. Look at the whole issue of education. In 1988, }'OU promised cbanges in boundaries. In 1990, you promised boundary changes.

In the Speech from the Throne in 1991, we are going to review the boundaries. In 1992, oh- An Honourable Member: Let me guess. Boundaries? Mr. Doer: Boundaries, 19937 Boundaries, 19947 Will we see it? Now we know it is December 15. The government is talking about December 15. Now is that coincidence, or is this cynical that it is going to go past the alleged sitting of this Ownber. I want to believe that the DDtives of~ opposite are clean as the pure drivm snow, but anybody who sat on this thing for six or seven years should be ashamed of themselves.

If you are not going to do it, do not promise it, and do not promise it five times. Do not promise it five tina wlm you are not going to do it. It is not that funny. It is pretty serious in tenns of your own credibility. If you cannot do it the first time you promise it and you cannot do it the second time, do not tell us a third time, the fourth time, the fifth time. Do not have ooe little proposal for Winnipeg so nrmbers opposite can go out in Winnipeg and St. Vital and say, oh, look at all these divisions. We are going to do s(.101C'tlring about it in Norwood, St. Vital, Seine River.

Do not have one position for Seine River and Niakwa and have another position in Portage Ia Prairie. That is not the old-fashioned Conservative way. That is not what John Diefenbaker would have done. That is not what Duff Roblin would have done. That is not what Sterling Lyon would have done. An Honourable Member: 'lbe three faces of Gary Filmon. Mr. Doer: That is the three faces of Gary Filmon that we want to deal with, Madam Deputy Speaker, three sets of books, three different positions on boundaries-cynical, cynical, cynical repackaging. I have the Speech from the Throne quotes.

Do yw people get a chance to read your past promises? If you go through them every year, you will find that most of the things you promise yoo do not do. There is the odd thing you have done. You got a new emblem I guess you have got a statue in London, I am finding out today, for Winnie the Pooh. We actually believe that we should have a statue in Winnipeg of Winnie the Pooh. I guess we have one. I guess we need the man from the boot when it comes to dealing with real statutes in tenns of the province. Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that this is a province built on hard wOik and a tradition of co-operation.

We believe that you have lost that

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 61 with your lack of energy and your cynical approach to just repackaging every day the promises that you have made and made and made again. We believe that Manitoba is like a family. We believe that a family are people who work bald together. 1bey share each other's joys. They share each other's successes, but they also give somebody a hand up in terms of giving people in their fiunily an opportunity to succeed.

And when somebody in their family needs help, they give them a helping hand When we look at the Conservative agenda in ter1m of operating like a fiunily, we see a body that operates more like a corporation in terms of its value system If something is not pulling its own weight in the short term they throw it out, cut it off, instead of giving somebody a helping hand. 1bat is the different crossroads we are at in terms of value system I do not agree with the Conservative philosophy and value system of cutting off student social allowance, New Careers, ACCESS programs. 1bat kind of Darwinian approach is not the family values that people have in this province.

They want to help members of their family get a helping hand. They believe in helping each other. A government and a people is not like a ~any. It does not cut off and amputate parts of our COtTJID!mities and parts of opportunities because it is s<H:alled not meeting the bottom. line in the short term Can you imagine if somebody in your family was not putting enough money in to pay off in terms of their family contributions, in terms of family bottom. lines, the family books? Do you throw them out of the home? Do you just toss them away, or do you give them a helping hand so they can become productive?

We are quite concerned in this countiy to see that same kind of value system developing. Let me give you a couple of examples where we see more of a corporate value system by the new federal government rather than a family value system of helping each other out: the whole issue of post-secondary education. We have had a tradition in this countiy and in this nation of having intergenerational support of each other. The young people who are seeking education are supported by people who already have a job and opportunity in terms of their tax revenues supporting people to get an education and training.

We do not see young people having a user-pay system and having to go into debt by $50,000. Have you 1isteoed to high school students lately in terms of what that means? We believe that those young people then in tum should become taxpa}US and support other }'OlDl8 people to get an education and also support our seniors in terms of health care and other services. Intergenerational support of each other.

A sharing model where young people are supported by people that have jobs, by people that have jobs support our seniors and our health care system Can you imagine young people today that are being forced to pay $50,000, how they are going to feel about our health care system after we have cut them off from their educational opportunities in five or ten years? This kind of Darwinian mentality in our province and in our country, that is not the way Canada was built.

We have been built on a country of intergenerational support, and we see the changes being made by the federal Liberal government which are not commented on in the govemmcnt's Speech from the Throne as being a total abdication of our generational support for each other and of a countiy that supports our young people and our seniors as active taxpayers in our average and most effective eaming periods of time in our life. •

(1500) Look at the whole policy of transportation. Again, we believe in a vision of Canada that builds our country to share in our transportation resources. We do not want to go to a slot-machine policy of transportation, where you put a quarter in and you get a quarter back, because that will mean that Toronto and Montreal and Ottawa will continue to thrive and places like Lynn Lake and Thompson and F1in Flon and Snow Lake and Dauphin and Swan River and Brandon and all the other commmities will suffer. We do not need to

62 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 go from three terminals in Toronto to four terminals in Toronto and close down seven terminals and privatize those in Manitoba. Again, Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe in a national vision where we take the income from higher-populated areas and redistribute that income to have economic oppornmity and economic futme for people in Manitoba. We have many challenges ahead of us. Nowhere is this government lll01'e cynical than in the ~a of health~.

This is a govemment that has <mlted a hundred wnmittees, that has brought in a U.S. consultant to privatize and Americanize our system, and, while at the same time it talks about community-based health ~ and prevmtative health aue, this government cuts back on home ~. cuts back on children's health~ and cuts back on essential long-term health ~ programs. Look at how cynical this govemment is. In 1991, this government promised a children's health strategy, and what did they do in 1992 and 1993?

You rut back m. services to children in our educational system, you cut back on diagnostic care, you cut back m. children's health services. You have gone in the opposite direction and you still do not know the iiqMlct m. children's health of your lottery expansion policy. You still do not know what is going on in terms of the children of this province. One of the highest child-poverty rates anywhere in Canada and the govemn n11 says, oh, everything is okay in terms of children in our province. I say to IDe1'd>ers opposite, look at the docmnent we tabled in the House last week, last Friday.

One of the govemment's own committees said last Friday that children in rural Manitoba are being left with less moocy to purchase nutritional food and are getting less time from their ~ts in their opinion because ofVLTs and recommends that the government deal with this. I would ask the government to look at its own committees about children's health and the VLTs in this province and not just give us words but give us deeds and give us commitment to deal with this. We do not need a hundred committees here in Manitoba.

We need to involve the public of Manitoba and we need a long-term plan to move our health ~ system from higher-cost institutional ~ to preventative care, Madam Deputy Spcam. We need hope in our health~. We do not need short-term amnesties before elections. We need long-term commitments to a medicare system here in Manitoba and we believe only the NDP can provide that. We have proposed a health accountability act to involve the public. We have proposed a strategy to deal with pmdictable fimding for our health care system.

We have proposed commmity-based health ~ as opposed to always having institutional ~. but having those programs in place before those massive cutbacks we see that have taken place in Manitoba facilities. We have proposed a change and a transforma tim. and an innovatim. of our Home Care program, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We believe that after 20 years there have to be changes in home care, and we are committed to having a program that is JDJCh rmre ftexible in la:eping dderly and disabled people in a home ~ setting because it is cost effective, it is fair, and it provides people with a health care system with dignity in their community, and we have a plan to do that Madam Deputy Speaker, we have proposed a 10-point program to deal with the children's health strategy, many positive ideas to have a children's health program. We are not going backward m. children's health like the govemment opposite is.

We are going forward to have a program to have mothers and children having better access to their school health; children's safety programs expanded, not <b':lining; audiologist programs and hearing assessurnt programs; a nortbem and rural healthy child strategy, including restoring the Children's Dental Health Program, which is also cost effective, here in Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, the govemment still has not figured it out that it costs more moocy to

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 63 move 300 children from a ~emote commmity to a dcmal.nurse in a commmity. Rather than moving 300 children to the nurse, we should be moving the nurse to the 300 people. 'Ibey still have not been able to figure that out ~have~a~~oo~Mthchild poverty. We have proposed a sensitive, p~eventative ~ to ooal Mth child poverty dealing Mth nutrition and nutritional pro~ in schools. We have proposed a ~~ to OOal Mth underweight babies and investing in p~evention again for mothers most at risk rather than again just oo~ at the other end.

We also believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we have to deal Mth our aboriginal children and have a pro~ The federal government is moving Mth the First Nations here in Manitoba, and it is important that Manitoba govemmcnt be at the table dealing Mth these issues and having an aboriginal healthy child strategy. It is essential in the long run that we do that. Pbarmacare deductibles have inCieased dramat ically over the last number of years, placing seniors and low-income families at risk in terms of inCieased cost of medication.

Compounding this problem has been the whole issue of change in Pharmacare policies and pharmaceutical generic drug policies by Ottawa and the fedeml government We a1e extiemely disappointed that this provision was contained in NAFTA that was ratified about a year ago. Generic drug prices Mll go up. The~e will be fewer jobs he~e in Manitoba and mxe jobs in Quebec in the drug industry, and we will be seeking support from all members of this Legislature for a made-in-Manitoba solution to the generic drug challenge we have and to deal Mth the high cost of prescription drugs.

We want the Manitoba Liberals, who in the last election promised to change this he~e in Manitoba, to live up to their word. We want all members to join in on that ~esolution. All of us in this Chamber last week had ribbons dealing Mth AIDS, this tragic disease that has taken the lives of too many young people across our world, including Manitoba. This government has remained silent, in our opinion, about the challenges dealing Mth this terrible disease and its spread here in our province.

We will introduce a resolution in this House defining the elements of a provincial AIDS strategy and calling on all Dmlbers of the Legislature to support an effort to meet this tlueat head on. Madam Deputy Speaker, 600 health care WOikcrs have lost their jobs in the last thiee years, particularly in the last two years or two budget years. There are also plans in place to let go another 1,000 health care workers in Manitoba without any plan about how they will be Iedeployed, how they will be retrained and what rorrmmity services will be provided.

Now I think we will see some public relations announcements for people in Manitoba, but we will not see any Iea1 ~ that you promised in 1991 and 1992. We will not see any Ieal programs on the ground. We are going to see press releases in the air, p~e-election press ~eleases in the air and pre election anmcsty pr<>g131m on the reductions in the next 12 weeks to try to get the government by what they consider to be inadequate ~esponse to health care pro~. Madam Deputy Speaker, we will have a totally different plan for health care.

We Mll have comuumity-based health care in place before we reduce the hundreds of beds that the government has reduced. We Mll put on hold all the plans to lay off people and close beds and make SUie the~e is a long-term plan in the community that also includes ~etraining, workers Iedeploying people into our health care system and making SUie that the public inte~est, the patient interest is No. 1 in terms of health care here in Manitoba. People want a health care system that they can count on, and we are the only ones who can provioo that he~e in the province of Manitoba.

Many people in our health care system, public and other people working in it, want to be involved and they want to be involved in Iea1 action. Madam Deputy Speaker, this committee after o a 111 Iii ICe after committee approach, the 100 comnittees has to end We have to have an action plan, a comuumity ~~ that will come on

64 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 stream, and we have proposed many, many specific ideas of how to do that. We also have to have a strategy dealing with profit labs, particularly dealing with the numbers of reports that the government has. Three or four reports have come to the government's attention calling m action to deal with rural diagnostic care, calling on action to deal with rural labs, pointing out that there has been sldiDilling going on in terms of profit labs versus nonprofit labs. •

(1510) What has the govemmcnt done about it? Every time it gets a report, it strikes another committee. It gets aootbcr report recognizing this $30-million problem, it strikes another committee. 'lbcn when it has a problem in terms of people from private labs and public labs, they create a committee that has members that are from the private lab

section here in the province of Manitoba. Five years you have had this problem Five years you have had committee reports. Five years of neglect and no action has seen no strategy dealing with the $30-million item in health care. Madam Deputy Speaker, instead of spending $4 million U.S. on Connie Curran, we believe yw should have strategies in place to have a made-in Manitoba action plan. We do not need Connie Curran and a hundred health care committees, we need a government with a vision and with a strategy. The former Minister of Finance, who ran up a $760-million deficit, wants to play it again.

We say to the people of Manitoba, they do not want to play it again, they do not want another five years of this group from across the way, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will work with the government in other preventative health care measures, particularly dealing with the Shoal Lake water supply and other water supplies across Manitoba. We thank the govenmrnt for moving in on the Pukatawagan situation. We are pleased that they moved the public health inspector in after we were able to get no response from Ottawa from November to May of 1994.

We think there are other conmnmities like that that need a long-term strategy, an action plan to deal with sare drinking water in our remote communities and in many of our other cmmmities. It is good health care, and it is good care for people that reside in Manitoba that need safe drioking water. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to move on for a moment dealing with public education. I have already mentioned the six or seven broken promises dealing with boundaries and school boundary review. The real question is: Why would anybody believe this government opposite about any election promise they make on education.

They have made a promise on school boundaries. Where is it? They made a promise in 1988- [interjcctim] Madam Deputy Speaker, Bill Norrie may be late two weeks. This government is late over five and a half years, and they want to blame the cbair of the con:mittee. That is why you are so cynical, Madam Deputy Speaker. Every time they open their mouths all you get is cynicism and cynicism and cynicism from members opposite. Five and a half years of doing nothing, a gov¢1• "'" d report that may be two weeks late, and what do we hear from the members opposite? Bl~ scxzbody else. Where does the buck stop?

It should stop at the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) desk. He is the one that made the promise, and he is the one that has broken the promise for six straight years. Why would anybody believe the members opposite in terms of the whole area of public education? What adler promises bas this government made? Well, in 1988 they promised to amend The Public SdJools Act. Did we see any amendments to The Public Schools Act in '89, in 1990, in 1991, in 1992, 1993, 19947 Will we see anything in 19957 No. Madam Deputy Speaker, this sort of revisionist, mroactive coocem for our public education system

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 65 rings hollow for members opposite. They can hand out white papers and blue papers and pink papers and purple papers, but they have done nothing in terms of real students and real schools across real Manitoba cOtiJDllmities. There have not been any changes made by ~rs opposite in our public education system except papers and press releases, cutbacks and press releases and C'nhancemcnt of DlCile}' for the private education system. the evolution of a two tier education system in this province.

That is all we have seen, nothing else-nothing else but press releases, hot air, broken promises and white papers. Any government that issues a white paper in its fourth year of its second term should be ashamed of itself I nan, this is a government that is really not committed to changing and revising the education system. It is not concerned about real renewal of the education system. It is ooly cmcem.ed about its own renewal, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is ooly cynically concerned about its own renewal, because I say to the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness), who is the third Minister of Education under this Premier (Mr. Film:n), that there are no dlanges in the classroom except funding cutbacks and chaos. We believe in a public education system and a goal of the education system that is quite different than the govem•• mt opposite. We believe that the future economy and being eotq)Ctitive in the future economy is a goal of our public education system. but it is only one goal of an education system.

We believe also that the goal of having people prepared for citizenship in our great country is also a legitimate and proper goal for our education system We also believe that an education system nmst prepare children to have lifelong learning. They nmst learn how to learn. They nmst learn how to be flexible in their teaming in a very, very changing world We think that the education system that has been introduced by members opposite is like an Arthm Murray dance lesson. You know, where you put little footprints on the floor, and you go to this me, you go to this one and you go to the next one.

When they change the dance in the world, our children will not be prepared to learn how to learn. They will ooly be prepared for that dance step. Dancing is fine. I wish I could dance a lot better. But there is more to education than just following footsteps. How can this government eliminate, as a mmdatory program, Canadian history in the 125th anniversary of Manitoba as a province?

How can this government, with all the challenges that Canada has, with all the cballenges that we have in Manitoba, with all the concerns that people have about our great country, Canada, that it is going through every ten years, issues and challenges, including constitutional proposals that have been before this Ownber, constitutional proposals that have been defeated in this Ownber or delayed in this Chamber, how can we be getting rid of Canadian history in Grade 11? How can we have a situation where the last time you may get a mmdatory course in Canadian history is Grade 6?

Madam Deputy Speaker, the government says on the me hand they are going to allow the school divisions to decide, and on the other hand, certain programs are going to be mandatory for the provincial govemmcnt. These people study the value system of the United States so dramatically, I am surprised that citizenship and history and Canadian history and Canada's history and Manitoba history is going to be dropped by Conservatives. Shame, shame. We are committed- An Honourable Member: Even Sterling Lyon would not do that. Mr. Doer: Well, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness) is-well, you know some people think that term. that adjective would better describe the Minister of Education in dropping the Canadian history course. In the next election, we will have choices. Members opposite will drop Canadian history in

66 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 Grade 11. [interjection] The Premier thinks it is funny we are dropping Grade 11 history in the 125th anniversary. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Premier should be ashamed of himself for not reining in- Madam Deputy Speaker: Older, please. •

(1520) Point or Order Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not think it is fumy what the member said. What I think is fumy is the member's attitude towards things. When he says that we are going to have choices in the next elec:tim, I was laughing because it ocC1JI'red to me that mdly the group Choices is who fronts for him all the tiire, and if they are the ones who are going to be the choice- Madam Deputy Speaker: Older, please. The hmourable First Minister does not have a point of order. ••• Mr.

Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, as usual, the Premier can mly go to the low road in a debate, only can go to the low road in terms of issues. I would have thought the Premier would have stood up and given us his real reasons for dropping Canadian history from core subjects and mmdatory subjects here in Manitoba in Grade 11. He cannot do it so he sits and takes a cheap shot. Point or Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister or Education and Training): Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition misspeaks the truth.

Canadian history will not be dropped from the COte subject; it will be the core essence of the social studies cmriculum. The member is wrong. Madam Deputy Speaker: The honomable Minister of Education does not have a point of order. ••• Mr. Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, just so the member opposite can be straight up with evetybody and the government opposite, we will be putting in a resolution and asking members of this Ownber to endorse Canadian history as a core course in senior curriculums here in Manitoba. We will look forward to the wiggling of members opposite on this issue for Canada's 125th anniversary .

We are going to wait with bated breath, whether the foriirz Minister of Finance tums to stone with the retroactive amendment we make on deficit budgets. [interjection] That is what Brian Mulroney said. Thank )'OU very IIDJch, Madam Deputy Speaker. We will continue with our comments. We will be asking all members of the Legislature to recogoi7e also the importance of physical education in the health and well-being of our children. Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that physical educatioo. program; should be mandatory, again, to the age of Grade 11.

We believe that all health experts support us in that recommendation. We are very disappointed that when the govemmenl has a dlance to deal with preventative health through keeping physical education into Grade 11, it has chosen a different path. I would ask members opposite to study some of the evidence that is coming out of the health care area in terms of the physical fitness of our young people. We have a real challenge, and nobody has any solutions to some of the real challenges we have in tcm11 of the amount of hours that kids and teenage kids are watching television.

The latest Nidsm rating, excluding Nintendo and excluding video machines, indicates that teenagers are averaging close to 25 hours of television a week, and that is a serious problem for all of us. I am not going to say to the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) that it is his respmsibility, but we have a real challenge in our cOJDDDmities-25 hours of television a week. We could talk about violence on television. We could

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 67 talk about a lot of other issues, but one thing we know is that we have a teenage population that is getting more and more sedentary and that has long term implications for our health care. I would ask the Premier to overrule his Minister of Education dealing with physical education, and ifhe is unable to do so, we will also be putting in a resolution dealing with physical education programs and their continuance to Grade 11.

Madam Deputy Speaker, this govemment has cut back dramltically over the last number of years and in terms of our public education system We believe in a long-term investment of our public education system We believe in committing to the public education system rather than the questiooable priorities that members opposite have like supporting the opemting deficit and losses of the Winnipeg Jets hockey team Madam Deputy Speaker, $43.5 million was approved by these members opposite to support the opemting losses of the hockey team That more than makes up for the cutbacks in the public education system We think it is wrong to have socialism for the Jets and reductions for public education.

We will walk to every constituency with the Premier's signature on the opemting loss agreement for the Winnipeg Jets. We will do more than that; we will have private members' legislation to cancel that rotten deal. It was never debated in this Ownber. We have proposed a number of alternatives in terms of healthy education, Madam Deputy Speaker. Our children's health proposal will also give people in Manitoba, the people in our schools, a JDJch greater flexibility in terms of teaching.

Nurses in schools will help us allow teachers to teach and will give us greater family life education and give us JDJch better protection in terms of our education system We are very disappointed that the govemment has funding reductions of clinicians, and ~ will restore fimding for clinicians in rural and northern Manitoba. We believe, again, that good health care and good prevention programs rather than being penny-wise and pound foolish as the Conservatives are opposite. MadamDeputySpeaker, we will be introducing a safe schools program. We have raised the issue of school violence in the past.

The govemment seems to not acknowledge that it exists, and now again just in its cynical pre-election period it is now talking about violence in schools. Where have you been for the last three or four years? Where have you been when we have been calling on a very, very active progmm to deal with violence in our schools over the last number of months and years? You have done nothing. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a number of proposals dealing with Distance Education, and we believe we need a co-ordinated approach to Distance Education not, again, just press releases and ad hoc policies.

We have a total program dealing with Distance Education. •

(1530) I have already mentioned the school boundaries issue, and finally, in terms of education itself, in terms of the public education system itself, we believe it is time for the confrontation and the fighting to end. We believe that having teachers and school ttustees fighting with the government and advertising against each other has got to end, Madam Deputy Speaker. We need a government that can work with everybody. This govemment would rather fight than solve problems, and it is about tm we have a government that can work in a co-opemtive way with eveeybody instead of fighting eveeybody. Bon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): In many provinces teachers have gone on strike, waiting .... Mr. Doer: How about those nmses, Donny? [interjection] As long as the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) nms again we will be very happy. I would just like the member for Pembina to

68 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 know, he is doing a real good job, Madam Deputy Speaker. We just want him to nm again so that we can have his name in front of every constituent in every c:mstitumcy in Manitoba. His popularity will do the govemment well, and he is such a wann, lovable, ldodbuman being. We just cannot wait for him to dechue for the next election. We would invite him to come to every coostituency heie in Manitoba. I lhink he is a ~eal asset to his party.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we have said before that we will cancel the corporate training grants that have been made by this govemment and put the JDOOCy back into ACCESS, New Caleers, Student Social Allowance and comnnmity ftmds. This govemment has backwud priorities: money to Kentucky Fried Olickcn and reductions of moDey" to our community training colleges. We also believe that we have to have a co-ordinated approach to training and investment in this province, and we will, in terms of the job side of this, work very hard to create a healthy economy he~e in Manitoba.

We will have an economic summit of business, labour and govemmc:ut We will have an all-party committee of the LegislatuR:, Madam Deputy Speaker, so that we can work together. We will have a number of proposals to get people working again rather than going-[interjection] This is a Piemier that has 100 committees on health ca~e, and he can talk about committees. He is the king of committees. We have proposed a seasonal emplO}'IDLD sttategy, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a comrmmity renewal and youth works program.

We have proposed a building bridges program that will get people off welfare and on to work, sOIII:tbing this government of course has not been committed to do. We have called on an intensified infrastructuie program, Madam Deputy Speaker, and one which is fair and has n:ait, not one which has patronage. We have called on the cancellation of the Kenaston undeipass. We think it is immoral that people have flooding basements and that many ronmmities cannot get infrastructure development and investment. Priorities are all wrong.

We believe that the govemment cannot justify an enhancement of infrastructuie at the same time as they are privatizing om ahports. What better infrastructuie proposal. Why the Liberals would be cutting back on airpott investm:m while they are putting money imo the Kcnaston undeipass is beyond us, and we will ask the Liberals to cancel that undeipass. We will ask the Pmnicr to cancel the undeipass in his Thxedo riding and put that money back into future jobs he~e in Manitoba. We also believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the economic priorities of this govemment again are backwards.

We have a situation whe~e people in Manitoba have seen that less than 5 percent of the mmey is going to roads in northern Manitoba. We believe in fair tieatmcnt for our roads in DOrthcm comnmnities. We do not think it is right that all the mooey is going into very, very short tenn objectives, and we will restOR: the funding priority and fairness, with proper funding out of the existing Highways budget, to northem Manitoba. The Port of Omrcbill is also an asset for our whole provioce.

We wish the committee well as it is dealing with the Port of Churchill, and the govemnr.nl has referred to it in its Ieport, but you cannot have it both ways on the Port of Churchill. You cannot support putting the JIJOOCY for grain transportation to the producer and off of the railways without affecting the Port of Omrcbill. You really just cannot have it both ways. Doug Young has alR:ady said that if we move the money from the railways to the producers, you will have to ship your grain on highways to the various ports. Madam Deputy Speaker, the~e is no highway to the Port of Omrcbill.

I want members opposite to know that So unlike- An Honourable Member: Did you just find that out over the weekend? ..

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 69 Mr. Doer: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would remind the Premier, who had taken no position on the grain transportation policy, has taken no positim. m. the Wheat Board, to stand up and have a backbone m. these issues instead of still sitting m. the picket fence as he so appropriately does all the time. We will propose a resolutim. for the Port of Churchill to enhance its role, but Manitobans [interjectim.). When we were in office, the Port of OlUrchill had restored box-[interjection]. The members opposite have no position on the grain transportation act changes.

They have taken no positim. in thcir Speech from the Throne, and they were proposed in om altemative speech to the throne. We have a position on the Wheat Board We have a position on the Port of Olurchill. We have a position on the grain transportation policy here in Canada. We are also proposing a Parklands development initiative, and we would welcome the government to finally get on with the City of Winnipeg Development Agreement, which they have promised year after year and we have not seen fulfilled. (Mr. Speaker in the Outir) Mr.

Speaker, Wimlipeg's airport is an asset, and we welcome the reference in the Speech from the Throne on the transportation industry here in this province, but we would ask the government to have a rmre definitive policy on the airport here in Manitoba. We would like the position from the former Minister of Highways in protecting the airport and stopping projects like The Pines rather than the positim. of the Premier and the former Minister of Urban Afl3irs and the former Minister of Housing. You cannot have it both ways.

You cannot have a permissive policy on airport protection and say you are going to have the transportation policy for the airport in the future. Training-we have already talked about the training proposals, where we will reallocate our money to the necessary programs. This government is devoid of any programs dealing with apprenticeship, no apprenticeship programs wbatsoeva-, and they can shake their heads, but all we have is a do-nothing government, a tired, cynical bunch of people. There are a number of challenges we have. We nmst deal with part-time employees and have a strategy.

This government has no strategy. We DIJSt mise the minimum wage, Mr. Speaker. This government has not raised the minimun wage in four years, and we have a proposal to raise the minimm wage to $5.75 an hom and six months thereafter to $6 an hour to get us in line with the rest of the country. We believe this will help the issue of poverty, and this will help working fiuDilies have rmre disposable income to help their families and make purchases that will help our ecm.omy. Mr. Speaker, I have talked today about mining deaths in Manitoba.

We believe and we would institute DI1Ch rmre enforcement here in Manitoba and a mining safety program that deals with the tragedy of four miners being tragically killed in the last 18 months in Manitoba. We believe we DIJSt have a strategy to deal with the transportation of hazardous waste. We also believe in terms of the Ihetoric in the Speech from the Throne dealing with the whole issue of endangered spaces. One only needs to refer to the press release last Friday on the condemnation of the government in terms of its serious lack of any

schedule and being seriously behind in terms of meeting their own election commitments that they made. In the area of community safety, Mr. Speaker, we are very disappointed that this government, this province, has not acknowledged that Manitoba was one of the only provinces in Canada that bad an increasing crime rate last year. When all the rhetoric was going on, when all the hot air was coming out, when all the press releases were going on, what did we see? We saw an increase in the crime rate here in Manitoba, and this is serious. People are worried. People are wonied in their

70 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 5, 1994 classrooms. lhey are worried in their own communities, and they want a govermnent that is going to do s()DI'Jbing about it, not just have press releases and press c:oni'emnces and have an increased rate in crime. We have proposed a govermnent crime prevmtion program. We have proposed a victim's assistance program whicl:t we had in the past and whicl:t the govermnent is cutting back. We have proposed justice committees to work in comnumities with young offenders. We have proposed a safety component be part of any infrastructure program.

We have proposed more community-based police officers, and, Mr. Speaker, we do not want a Minister of Justice that is fighting with the RCMP. We do not want a Minister of Justice whose own credibility has been called into question by the RCMP. I have never seen in the history of this province where the RCMP has called into question the honesty of the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), and one has to ask the question of the Premier (Mr. Filmon), why did he not fire the Minister of Justice when she lost credibility with the major police office in this province?

We believe that the RCMP should be supported, and we should wodc with those officers, not fight with them We have proposed an option for our youth, dealing with drop-in centres in comnumities where no drop-in centres exist. We have always believed in a program, a place where a child could drop in or a youth could drop in is IWcl:t better than having to drop into a gang, Mr. Speaker preventative programs to deal with crime in our province. We will work with the govermnent on the recon•n::ndations that they are going to put before us dealing with pedophiles. We think it is long overdue.

We will work with this govermnent to deal with it and we will also ask the govermnent to look at the voids in our justice and health and education systems that arise from the inquest dealing with the tragic murder of Sarah Kelly in The Pas just recently, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, that is a cmcem for all of us, to find out what went wrong and what we can do to prevent that in the future. •

(1540) Mr. Speaker, we also believe that justice delayed is justice denied-delay after delay after delay in our courts. We have raised that issue and the govemment said, oh, there is no problem, there is no problem, and now they are coming in with a pre-election proposal to have a night court. If the goal of night court is to have parents with the youth, we support that, but we want to see real action on the part of the government to deal with the backlog.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars in severance pay to get rid of judges when the backlog is getting bigger and bigger is not a strategy to deal with the backlog. It may be a good strategy for a few judges, but the public interest was made subservient to the interest of the govemment to appoint new judges sometime in 1995, and we think that is cynical and wrong and very wrong for the justice system here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we will work with everybody in this House to ensure that the framework agreement for self-govermnent for aboriginal people is a success, and we would urge the government to get off the sidelines and work with this proposal. The government mentions the offioading that took place, the $60 million. I think it is important that the govermnent work in co-operation with First Nations aboriginal people and the federal govermnent on this important and positive initiative here in Manitoba. I would also ask the govermnent to work with the federal govermnent on immigration.

It is wroog for the immigration policies that have been downloaded in terms of Manitoba by the national govermmu h has been desaibed by Tom Denton as the equivalent of a Olinese head tax, in his words. It is a policy of immigration that is developed for Toronto. It has not been developed for Manitoba; it has not been developed for our province. We have had a program of tolerance; we have not had a policy of a fee for certain immigrants.

December 5, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 71 (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Clair) We have had a history and a tradition of reunifying families, and our province needs inmigratioo to have ecooomi.c growth. Mr. Acting Speaker, let us all join together and vote for the two NDP resolutions that call on the federal Liberal govemment to rescind their immigration policies. Mr. Acting Speaker, we also believe that foreign credentials, the provisions for new immigrants, nwst be changed and people that have qualifications and have skills nwst be given equivalc:ot standing in our Manitoba comnmnities.

I would call on the govemment to support our resolution for this before the Chamber in this session. (Mr. Speaker in the Clair) Mr. Speaker, the whole issue of social policy review is before us. We do not know what will happen, but we believe strongly that a strong natiooal government nwst have strong supports in health, education and social spending in our country.

We believe in national programs, and the more and more the govemment offioads those programs to the provinces, the more and more it oftloads to intergenerational challenges for people and the more and more it will make Canada into have-not provinces in some ~~~eas and greater-have provinces in other ~~~eas. We also will be calling on the govermnent to worlc with the federal govemment to keep their oo••• dl •• eJt oo dealing with the whole ~~~ea of the GST. We recall that the federal govermnent in opposition said that they would scrap the GST.

I recall that the federal govemment said that they would scrap the GST in a conmnmity meeting in Brandoo in 1993, and I think it is time that we propose an alternative, to scrap the GST rather than have a system to just tinker with it where we move certain tax points to the federal government and other tax points to the provincial governments. The people in Canada and Manitoba want rid of this GST. They want to get at the deferred taxes for corporations, and we have an alternative proposal to rid ourselves of the GST through fair taxatioo dealing with family trusts and deferred taxes for business.

We have always said it is wrong when a bank teller pays more tax than a bank, and when we look at the profits coming out from all these banks, it is about time we had fair taxatioo in this country, not just retinkering with the GST in this country. We will be putting that furwaid in teams of a resolution, and we would ask all members to support it. We believe other cbaoges IIIJSt be made in terms of government advertising with a code of conduct which we call on the govemment to implement, and we will be placing this before the Legislature in this session.

We have also proposed that we have a recommendation to the Olief Electoral Officer implemented in this Chamber in this session. We have also suggested, Mr. Speaker, that the operating loss agreement for the Winnipeg Jets be cancelled, and we will be bringing forth legislation to do that. Mr. Speaker, in six Speeches from the Throne, the government has not even mentioned the word "lotteries." It does not mention the word "lotteries." It does not exist, and we have a situatioo in Manitoba where there is no credibility of the people with this govemment not to use the lotteries as a slush fund for their own ~lection.

It was very, very unfortunate but illustrative of where this govemm::nt is going in lotteries when a week and a half ago, Thesday, we saw the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) produce a document saying that the lottery revenue would be $180 millioo and 48 hours later the ministry of Lotteries coming out with a document saying the lottery revenue is estimated to be $210 million. When you look at their annual report, you know why we 111e rather suspect of the government, because nowhere in that annual report is there a budget

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-6-3a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 6th hansardpdf 3a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	58f17842c63ee21a9cf5d7f6266c7fbfb232c359

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