March 25,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol.

XLI No. 15

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before proceeding to the ordinary business of the day on

behalf of all Members I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly

twenty-seven Level 11 students from Bishop O'Neil School, Brigus accompanied by

their teacher Mr. Edward Quinlan.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am very pleased to announce to this hon. House that a

tentative agreement has been reached in collective bargaining negotiations

involving Government, the Newfoundland and Labrador School Trustees Association,

and the Newfoundland Teacher's Association.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, for many years both Government

and the NTA have recognized that major changes were necessary if the teacher's

pension plan was to survive. The pension consultants were advising that the fund

from which teacher's pensions are paid would be exhausted within ten years

unless responsible action was taken. Unfortunately previous Governments failed

to come to grips with this problem and deal with it responsibly. Accordingly,

the financial security of teachers was put at risk by administrations lacking

the foresight to plan for the long-term.

Mr. Speaker, one of our first stated objectives upon forming

the Government of this Province was to provide for the long-term financial

viability of the teacher's pension plan. I am please today to say that with the

co-operation of the NTA executive, and subject to ratification by teachers, that

objective has been achieved and teacher's pensions are no longer at risk.

Mr. Speaker, details of this tentative agreement will be

released following ratification vote by teachers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all I would say it is rather old news as it was

announced last night on the news and it was in the newspaper today. I suppose

the President of Treasury Board thought he would try to get his pound of flesh

by bringing it into the House, but I wonder what it is we are cheering about?

This Government signed agreements during this past year and now with Bill 16 we

have seen they have cancelled them, broken them all, so what is the point of

cheering? I would suspect that the teachers are pretty concerned about what

might happen in the future. Now, Mr. Speaker, I remember the last agreement that

the NTA and the teachers signed was actually an agreement that was signed and

agreed upon before the expiration of their previous agreement, for the first

time ever, Mr. Speaker, now, we have seen this Government take about sixteen or

seventeen months of negotiations to try to get this agreement so I say, Mr.

Speaker, it is about time that they were able to settle with the NTA. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the only reason they have settled of course is because of the pressure

from the Opposition in the House with petitions on behalf of teachers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Because of the Premier's threat to members of

the NTA to use legislation - a stroke of the pen, I think, were his very words,

the teachers' themselves were browbeaten into taking a work-to-rule vote and in

fact voting on it. It was only after they voted on the work-to-rule that this

Government finally decided to sit down and bargain properly, Mr. Speaker.

There are questions. Will this group lose a 7 per cent wage

increase that had originally been negotiated? Did they get pension indexing? And

if so will other groups get it? So there are a whole bunch of questions, Mr.

Speaker. But if they think that all is now well between the teachers of this

Province and this administration, then they have another think coming, Mr.

Speaker, that is all I have to say.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the

President of Treasury Board. According to a list that I have obtained, there are

twenty bargaining units, public sector bargaining units, who will have

negotiated wage increases wiped out for 1991-1992 because of Bill 16, and the

increases ranged from 3 per cent for one group, 6 to 7 per cent for other

groups, most of them in fact, but up to 10 and 12 per cent, Mr. Speaker, for

others; for example: the Lab and X-ray workers who were legislated back to work

and indeed legislated to arbitration, were awarded a 10 per cent increase to

achieve equality. My question to the Minister is, how can he justify wage

rollbacks which will cost some employees two or three times as much as it will

cost others? Is that an example of fairness and balance?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just to correct a

mis-statement by the hon. Member, the Lab and X-ray workers were not legislated

back to work. What happened was that they agreed to go back to work following -

they agreed to go to binding arbitration and they went back to work, it was not

legislated; but with regards to the substance of his question, Mr. Speaker, what

we will do when the legislation passes is impose a wage freeze for a one year

period and everybody will be treated the same, in the sense that there has to be

a zero wage increase during that one year.

If the member has read the legislation he will realize that

the unions involved then have a choice as to how to proceed; the unions that

have lost these amounts he is talking about, will have choices as to how to

proceed, and no matter which choice they take, and I suspect that they will take

the choice that best suits them and that is the way it was meant to be, that any

inequities will be balanced out by the way the wage freeze is applied.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. A

supplementary.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that clears

anything up for anybody or adds more confusion to it; we will examine what the

President of Treasury Board has had to say and check it out with other sources.

I ask the Minister also, if he would confirm that public employees in Labrador

will lose, in addition to the wage freeze that has been announced, negotiated

increases of 18 per cent isolation allowances, 27 per cent travel allowances, 9

per cent independents allowances, benefits given them in fact after a very

lengthy independent study I think was done, and if this is true and he can

confirm it, can he tell us then, why public employees in Labrador are being

treated as special victims above and beyond other groups in the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, as to the matter in his question,

the last statement the Member made is simply not true. Nobody is being treated

differently from anybody else. The increases that were negotiated for that year

will simply come into existence one year later than the agreed on date, this

possibility is built into the legislation as the Member knows if he has read the

legislation, so nobody will be discriminated against unduly. The same rules

apply to everybody in the public service of the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if I understand the

President of Treasury Board correctly but he is assuming, I take it, that all

groups will agree to the option provided for in the legislation. If that is what

he is assuming, then he may be presumptuous in his assumption, because there is

no definite guarantee that groups will take that. And if they do not take that

option, wouldn't he then agree that they will have lost these increased

benefits?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, the options are put there so that

the unions will have a choice of choosing the option that best suits them and

that treats them in the best possible way. We can only assume that when the

unions make their choice they will choose what is best for them. I am not going

to pre-judge that choice.

MR. SIMMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader on a

supplementary.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, his Government often boasts about

the big plan they have; we hear the Ministers over there referring to `we have

this big plan', but there are obviously many people in this Province, including

economists, who do not really believe that our fiscal situation will be much

more improved by the time next year rolls around. Can the President of Treasury

Board assure the House and, indeed, assure the workers of this Province, public

sector workers in particular, that no extension of wage rollbacks or wage

freezes will make up part of this administration's so-called big plan for the

following fiscal year, 1992-93?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, we have delivered the Budget

pertaining to this year. I cannot pre-judge what may happen anytime in the next

number of years. However, I would say to the Opposition House Leader, one thing

all economists do agree on is that this Province will experience more real

growth in the coming year than any other part of Canada.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a couple of

questions again today for the Minister of Health, to see if we can get some

straight answers. Mr. Speaker, after the Budget was delivered on March 7 the

Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association made a press release saying

that basically it simply would not be possible this year to achieve the kinds of

cuts that were requested by the Minister of Finance, that, in fact, even with a

very significant downplay of services there would still be a $10 million

shortfall. Over the past weekend the same Association has issued a press release

saying that it is not going to be possible to achieve the kinds of cuts the

Minister of Finance asked for in his Budget, that in fact they are going to be

$10 million short, and if they do not receive some additional funding, then

there are going to be additional bed closures and additional layoffs. Will the

Minister of Health confirm and agree with this statement made by the

Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I will confirm that shortly

after the Budget the Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association issued a

statement in which they said they did not agree with the amount of money the

Government was saying was sufficient to meet our health needs this year. I will

not confirm the press release which they made over the weekend. I am not aware

they made it. Do I agree with them? No, Mr. Speaker, I do not agree with them.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again it is so difficult to get

straight answers from the Minister. Obviously, had you read The Sunday Express

you would have seen that the Association did confirm its original estimation,

that they could not save $10 million and do what the Minister asked them to do.

I ask the Minister again, if he is not willing to listen to professional advice

from a group such as the Hospital and Nursing Home Association, will he

reconsider the fact that this group has to save an additional $10 million this

year which they say they are not capable of doing without significant disruption

to the health care services. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the Minister will he

reconsider the Budget cuts for the Hospital and Nursing Home Association, to

find somewhere in his Budget the $10 million which they say they are not going

to be able to find?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, if there is one problem we have

in the Department of Health, maybe it is that we listen to so many professional

people who want to advise us.

AN HON. MEMBER: Right on!

MR. DECKER: We have listened to the professionals in the

Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association, we have listened to the

Newfoundland Medical Association, we have listened to the Association of

Registered Nurses, we have listened to every town council in the Province, we

have listened to every board in the Province, Mr. Speaker. We are listening to

everyone and we are getting about fifty different suggestions as to how we are

going to deal with this fiscal problem we have. And after listening to all the

professional groups - and they do not all agree - the buck stops with the

Department of Health and this Government and we have to make the final judgment

call and, Mr. Speaker, we have made that. I believe we have made the right

decision. We might be proven to be wrong, and if we are, we will have to deal

with that. But we listened to all the professionals, and they are not all saying

the same thing, and we tried to pick out of that what was the proper judgment

call. Mr. Speaker, it stopped with the Department of Health to make that call

and we made it.

MR. POWER: A final supplementary.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Ferryland, a final

supplementary.

MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again I can only reiterate what

the Association is saying, that they are going to be $10 million short. And they

say if they do not find the $10 million, the Christmas and summer bed closures

will be extended, more jobs will be lost, and the health care system will be

significantly impacted. Now I ask the Minister is he willing to sit idly by

while this is taking place, this further downgrading of the health care system,

or is he willing today to listen to the Hospital and Nursing Home Association

and go to his Cabinet colleagues and find this additional shortfall of $10

million which is not going to be able to be found in the present health care

system?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is talking like

a spoiled brat who thinks money grows on trees, who keeps running back to his

parents for more money. The fact of the matter is, this Province, this year, is

spending almost $900 million on our health care system. Nearly 25 per cent of

our total budget is going into health care, Mr. Speaker. His colleagues in

Ottawa have practically stopped the transfer payments for health and education.

We are left with taking the money out of our people's pockets, borrowing it, Mr.

Speaker.

There is no money. We have almost $900 million to deliver

health care to the people. We have put a system in place which I believe is the

best system we can afford to put in place, keeping in mind that we have only

almost $900 million with which to do it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have taken advice

from all the professionals. After hearing their advice I had to make a judgement

call, and I made it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have some

questions for the Minister of Finance, following along with the questions from

my colleague for Ferryland. The administrators in the Public Service told

Government a number of months ago that because of lengths of termination notices

required and bumping procedures inherent in collective bargaining agreements,

that it would take five months lead time to achieve any savings the Minister of

Finance had asked for from them in 1990-1991. Will the Minister confirm that

because of this Government will achieve no more than two-thirds of the savings

expected in 1991 from layoffs in the Public Service sector?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, our information is that we will

be able to realize the savings we have projected. It is very important, though,

that what has to be done had best be done quickly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I say to the Minister my

information is that indeed the Minister will not achieve what he has set out to

achieve in the Public Service this year and that, in fact, as a result of the

way in which the Minister has handled this particular issue, that either the

deficit for 1991 will increase by $15 million to $20 million, or we will be

looking at another 500 to 600 layoffs in the Public sector this year. Will the

Minister confirm that that is in fact the case?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not really know

what entrails the hon. Member has been consulting lately for his information,

but I can tell you it is false.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for that.

If that is the case, will the Minister therefore tell us why he has not

published the Departmental salary details so that we will know how many people

are going to be laid off? And is it not true that the Minister, in fact, does

not know how many will be laid off or whom will be laid off and that is the

reason why they are trying to hide away the salary details and they are not

being published as they always have been?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: It is very difficult sometimes, Mr. Speaker,

to respond sensibly to comments like that.

MR. SIMMS: It certainly is (inaudible)

MR. BAKER: I will start again, Mr. Speaker. Again, I

repeat, it is difficult to be sensible sometimes. The salary details will be

published as soon as the information is available. As hon. Members know, there

are certain decisions that were made very late in the Budgetary process, within

days of the Budget actually being read in this House, having to do with the

freezing of wages. Also, in terms of the downsizing of certain parts of the

public service - there is access to bumping procedures and so on - Mr. Speaker,

it was impossible for us at that point in time, because decisions were so late

being made, to have the actual individual salary details at the time of the

Budget. However, in Treasury Board my officials are working on this as hard as

they can to get the numbers as quickly as they can. In one sense the hon.

gentleman opposite is correct. It will still take a few days before the final

effects are known and at that point in time, then, we can perhaps finalize and

start publishing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, it is strange that every other

year decisions were made late in the Budgetary process and we were still able to

have the salary details, particularly in light of the age of the computer today,

where that stuff can be turned out almost instantaneously as decisions are being

made. Will the Minister not confirm, Mr. Speaker, that he is indeed trying to

hide the truth and will he not come clean? The fact is that we will soon know

the details of this. At least twelve months from now we will know how many

positions there are. Why will the Minister not come forward and let us know who

is being fired from the public service?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, again sometimes it is difficult.

We have announced that the Budget will result in 650 fewer jobs, I believe it

is, in the direct public service of the Province, and the steps have now been

taken to bring that about because Departments have to live within their salary

guidelines, within the budgeted amounts. There is no hiding here. In this whole

process we have been totally open and totally honest with the people of this

Province from day one. From the first day we recognized there was a financial

problem and the extent of it, we were open, honest and forthright with the

people of this Province. All along the way Members opposite were saying, why are

you going around saying this? Why can you not simply make up your minds and stop

telling us about it? Well, we told people every step of the way. We went out and

consulted with hospital boards and with boards of community colleges; we went

out and consulted with the management groups in the public service; we consulted

with the unions. Eventually decisions were made, and when decisions were made we

brought in a Budget and we are going to live by that Budget.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last Fall, when this

House sat, I pointed out to the Minister of Finance that prices of fuels were

rising greatly because of the mounting Gulf crisis and asked him at the time to

fix his tax rate on gasoline, etc. He refused and raked in a lot of money for

the Treasury. Now that that war is behind us, a war in which a lot of

Newfoundlanders served, and now that gasoline prices are falling rapidly and he

has fixed the tax, will he not admit now that that fixing is ripping off maybe

$10 to $15 million extra dollars from the people of our Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, we have to have a fairly secure

source of revenue and the ad valorem tax, which had been imposed on gasoline,

was a most variable way of doing it: as the price of gasoline rose the take from

the system rose, and as the price of gasoline went down, our tax intake

decreased. So you can never actually be sure from that type of system. It is

very difficult to make predictions as to what will happen, because the price of

oil has been flexible over the past number of years. So while the price of oil

was quite high last fall and early winter, we decided that we would not increase

the ad valorem because we do that on a regular basis. So we decided, realizing

that the price of oil would in all probability decrease, that we would fix the

tax at a high point in the price, which means that as the price of oil goes down

consumers will get their break from the price of oil declining, and we will get

our tax.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: A supplementary to the Minister of Finance.

The surnames involved, Kitchen and Baker, certainly fit the cooking of the

books. Will the Minister admit that the motto of this Government has basically

become, either axe it or tax it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

AN HON. MEMBER: No answer?

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All last week the

CRTC has been holding public hearings in Hull, Quebec, concerning the service

reductions across Newfoundland and Labrador and the rest of the country, when

CBC announced their reductions in December of 1990. I am proud to say that

Members of this caucus, the Member for Humber East, the Member for Torngat

Mountains and myself, attended these hearings on behalf of our constituents and

opposed these cutbacks in strong position papers presented to the CRTC. I was

surprised that no representatives of the Government caucus or the Government

were at these hearings or, to the best of my knowledge, were scheduled to appear

at these hearings, which are continuing this week. I would like to ask the

Minister responsible for communications whether the Government considers that

the proposed reduction in CBC service, at issue in these hearings, will impact

negatively on the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, or whether the matter

has, in fact, been discussed by the Cabinet at all?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. GULLAGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have had considerable

discussion with the regional director, Mr. Byrd, on the cuts that have taken

place so far, and the fact that regional interests and staff across the country

have been severely affected, not just in this region, but in other regions of

Canada, as well. I followed up discussions with Mr. Byrd with discussions

between other Ministers in provinces across the country, and we have had several

conference calls about the cuts which have taken place and cuts which may take

place in the future, because I do not believe this is the end of the problem. We

all know, of course, that the real problem is that they are centralizing CBC

into central Canada, into Ontario in particular, and that is the gist of the

problem. So we have had considerable discussion, Mr. Speaker, and those

discussions at the Ministerial level are ongoing with the CBC.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: The Minister has confirmed that national

centralization has an adverse effect on the people of the whole country, as does

provincial centralization.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: Now that we know the Minister has only

conferred with CBC officials, can we ask why he did not intervene with the

agency that could force CBC to reinstate local service, the CRTC? That is whom

he was supposed to intervene with. Will he answer my question? Why did he not

intervene with the CRTC?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, we have not ruled out

intervention with the CRTC.

MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) going over?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GULLAGE: I do not think the CRTC is going to

disappear because the hearings are over, Mr. Speaker. And our view is that

Ministerial discussions are important at this stage. We are trying to develop a

consensus across the country between the Ministers responsible to attack this

problem with the CBC, which is not just one that focuses entirely on

Newfoundland. It is a nationwide problem and our concern is where they are

going: not just what they have done in the past, but what they are about to do

in the future. We want to address this and the long-range implications of it

sensibly. I think we are doing that at the ministerial level, having discussions

between the ministers responsible across the country and with Ottawa and with

the CRTC if necessary. We have not as yet. That does mean we will not.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister is

aware that other Provincial Governments presented briefs to the CRTC?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec!

MR. A. SNOW: Let me ask the Minister is the real reason

Government has not done anything to speak out against the proposed CBC cuts

because this Government has been hamstrung by its own drastic cuts announced in

the Budget on March 7, and that this Government no longer has credibility in

standing up for the services our people have come to rely on for decades?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: Is that the real reason why they have not

intervened to the CRTC?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest it is the Tory

Government in Ottawa that is responsible for these cuts in the CBC.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) we opposed it, unlike you over

there!

MR. GULLAGE: It is the Federal Government policy of

getting rid of almost everything they have that has any connection with their

Government, downsizing to the point of -

MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) MUN Extension?

MR. GULLAGE: - downsizing to the point that every

corporation that is separate from Government now is on the chopping block,

including CBC. And we have not seen the end of it as yet. I would suggest that

before the day is over a lot of the intervention, a lot of the discussions we

are having as Ministers with the Federal Government will probably, we would

hope, see some regional programming retained, such as Land and Sea . And

it probably will be as a result of our intervention that those decisions are

rolled back.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Minister of Education. The Minister will know that one of the basic

principles of university education in Newfoundland is that it should be

available to all those who qualify. Will the Minister confirm that the

Government has been told by the President of Memorial University that if the

cutbacks and the financing being offered to this University continue into the

following year, that the University will be capping enrollment and restricting

enrollment, and restricting returning students not for academic reasons but for

reasons of economics, and that, in fact, he has set up a committee to determine

how that should take place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have not been told officially

by the President that that would happen, but I think the President has expressed

a concern that we all have, that if we continue these reductions that

President, and that is why this year we increased the budgeted amount in Student

Aid by $3 million, and there is no cap on that. So if there are students who are

disadvantaged as a result of this year's increase in fees, they will have access

to funds.

Mr. Speaker, one other point I would like to make. I have

been told by a former president of Memorial University that our participation

rate in post-secondary at the University level has increased dramatically in the

last few years, and that increasingly rural Newfoundland students are attending

Memorial University.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister knows that Student

Aid is only available to students who can get into Memorial University, not to

those who are prevented from getting in by enrollment caps.

In view of the $7 million loss through EPF financing and the

$12 million projected next year, indeed the $81 million losses until 1995, can

to Memorial University by the University capping enrollment?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: I should clarify, Mr. Speaker, that I am

delighted there are no caps on enrollment at Memorial University. Unlike other

universities across this country, we have not capped enrollments and the Board

of Regents and the President should be congratulated on not doing that. Mr.

Speaker, we are seriously concerned about the reductions in transfer payments,

and if they continue at the rate of the reductions and the capping at the

Federal level, God knows what we will have to do. I hope, however, we will not

have to cap enrollments, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Perhaps the Minister misunderstood my first

question. Can he confirm that his Government has been advised by the President

that if the financing cuts continue he will have to cut enrollment, and, in

fact, has set up a committee to devise how that would be done, to cap enrollment

even for those who otherwise qualify?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have not been told officially

that there will be caps in the future. We have advised the university that we

oppose any such caps, but in the future the university will make its own

decisions. Our hope is that we will not have to cap enrollments, Mr. Speaker,

but the university will have to do what it has to do. And we congratulate them

post-secondary in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question

is to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Would the Minister

table correspondence he has sent off to the Federal Minister of Transport

objecting to the 60 per cent increase in ferry rates and freight rates for

Marine Atlantic to coastal Labrador and the southwest coast?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, if the Member had been in the

House two Wednesdays ago he would have heard that my colleague for Pleasantville

brought in a private member's resolution, talking about the concern which has

occurred with the privatization of airline and freight rates in the country by

passing it from -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, we are very concerned with the

situation that has evolved, again with the Tory Federal Government, where they

are increasing the rates to the peripheries of Canada. My colleague for

Pleasantville brought in a resolution talking about it, then my colleague for

Eagle River brought in one. We have been in constant contact with the Federal

Government and the Federal Minister concerning the practice they are now trying

to institute in Newfoundland, in this Province, of making the user pay for

transportation of all kinds.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has expired.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to, first of all,

table the 1990 Annual Report of the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of

Women, Newfoundland and Labrador, and also the Twentieth Annual Report of

Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited.

MR. SPEAKER: Before moving to the next item, on behalf of

hon. Members I would like to welcome to the Speaker's Galleries today Mr. Bill

Kelly, the Mayor of Wabush.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table answers to

questions which were on the Order Paper for me last week. Thank you.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a

petition on behalf of approximately sixty residents of the community of Beau

Bois in the District of Burin - Placentia West. They are petitioning Government

to have proper and safe road conditions to their community, for the safety of

the children travelling by school bus and for other persons who have to use the

road.

Mr. Speaker, many people may not be familiar with the

community of Beau Bois.

AN HON. MEMBER: I am.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, my colleague for St. John's East is

familiar with it. I had him out there at one time.

AN HON. MEMBER: You did?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TOBIN: I can tell you, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is some noise on both

sides, and I am trying to hear the petition.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Beau Bois, Mr. Speaker, is a very picturesque

community, approximately 1.5 kilometres from the community of Little Bay, which

is part of Marystown. There is probably no place in Newfoundland where, per

capita, more taxes are paid to the Province than the community of Beau Bois.

There are three or four trawler captains who come from that community -just

about all the community is employed on deep sea trawlers: captains, mates and

engineers. They make a significant contribution to the well-being of this

Province and they are asking to have their road upgraded and paved from Little

Bay to Beau Bois, which will cost the Government approximately $100,000. That is

what it will cost. It is just one kilometre, Mr. Speaker.

As a matter of fact, the last year we were in Government it

was a project which had been identified, it was on the list. And I can show the

- the President of Treasury Board laughs. I can show the President of Treasury

Board, if he so wishes, a copy of the Cabinet paper which included Beau Bois and

the funding, as well as Red Harbour and some other communities in my district.

But since then that has all been scrapped and left by the wayside. I would

really impress upon this Government to look seriously at the contribution Beau

Bois has made to this Province over the years and to do what is necessary in

terms of providing them with good road conditions.

As I said, it is not going to cost them very much money to do

the road to Beau Bois. They have worked hard all of their lives. As I said,

there are three or four trawler captains who come from that community, a very

tiny community, and it is not asking for the end of the world to ask to have a

bit of pavement placed there. This past Winter, due to road conditions, the

Department of Transportation had their grader roll bottom up while going down

over the hill. I am sure no one wants to think what the result might have been

had it rolled over on the opposite side of the road. The cars just cannot

communicate because of the declining hill there, and the RCMP and everyone have

been involved. So I ask the Minister of Transportation if he would give serious

consideration this year to paving that piece of road? As I said, it is something

that is extremely important to that community, extremely important to the

Province of Newfoundland. I say to the Minister this is 1991, and to ask for

$100,000 or $200,000 it is not the end of the world. And I would ask the

President of Treasury to support it when he sits around the Cabinet table and

they start divvying up the pie, as I understand this Government does, and

support the community of Beau Bois in their request to have an adequate road

service.

As a matter of fact, when I was elected in 1982, we needed

$32 million to finish the roads. We were just about finished when Government

changed, and we have received precious little work since that time. So I would

now ask the Minister of Transportation if he would ensure that this year the

road to Beau Bois, as well as the road to Rock Harbour, is paved. At least all

the roads then will probably be paved, but in some cases, in places in the

district like Boat Harbour, etc., these roads are actually worse now that they

are paved than they were before they were paved.

So I place upon the Table of the House this petition, signed

by all the eligible voters in the District of Beau Bois, asking that Government

do what needs to be done in order to provide them with an adequate road service.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker.

I rise in my place today, Mr. Speaker, to support the

petition so ably presented by my colleague the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia

West on behalf of the residents of Beau Bois in his district. It is a fairly

simple request in this day and age, 1991, for a group of people who are

contributing immensely to the economy of this Province to try to have the access

to their community, relatively modern, Mr. Speaker. To upgrade and pave,

eventually, a couple of kilometres of highway between Marystown and this

community would not create a great onus on the Department of Transportation in

this Province who are spending millions and millions of dollars on roads this

year, most of it Federal Government money. On behalf of the fifty-two residents

of Beau Bois I would say to them to be realistic in that this Government is in

place and that this Government would prefer not to pave or upgrade the road, Mr.

Speaker. The actions of this Government have shown that they would prefer that

the residents of Beau Bois resettle to a larger community. That has been the

hope of the present administration since they came in power. They campaigned,

during the election, on decentralization and their actions since becoming

Government has created centralization. I would suggest that the people of Beau

Bois will be waiting quite some time for their road to be paved and upgraded,

and the best chance they would have of getting their road paved and upgraded

would be to keep their present Member in position until the next election when

the administration will change and then we will have a re-commitment in this

Province to rural Newfoundland to allow people to stay in their communities and

try to provide, as best we can, the minimum services of some water and sewer to

rural Newfoundland, and some additional road upgrading such as a minimum amount

of paving.

I would like to know from the Minister, if he gets up, the

cost of trying to get the grader that turned over and was stuck while trying to

clear snow in this community over the Winter, Mr. Speaker. I would say the cost

of that would probably have alleviated about 10 per cent of the request of

$150,000 just to get that grader out of the ditch last Winter. Mr. Speaker, to

upgrade the road, to grade it every year, also probably costs, over a two or

three year period, the complete amount of what it would cost to complete the

road, to fully pave it, for this one and a half or two kilometres of road. The

hon. Minister is going to waste more money on maintenance on this small

section

of road than what it would cost him to pave it and be finished with it once and

for all.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have heard the petition from the sixty-three citizens of

Beau Bois and I am certainly concerned because we have a lot of gravel road in

the Province and we would certainly like to have it all paved. There is 2500

kilometres of it still around and maybe if the previous Government had done

something over the last seventeen years before we took over we would not have

these problems now. When I think that I am spending $15 million a year to

operate a ferry service that the previous Government took over, an expense that

was a Federal Government responsibility, if we had that maybe we would have been

able to pave the road to Beau Bois and many of the other roads in communities

around the Province who have gravel roads. I certainly appreciate the fact that

it is there and we are constantly aware and trying to upgrade the roads

throughout the Province. It is interesting thought, Mr. Speaker, that now when

the hon. Members get up we hear them talk about resettlement. I heard my

colleague for Bellevue mention it when he was talking the other day to the

gentleman for Green Bay, I think. It is a romantic thing now to talk about

resettlement. Very few of us in the House are actual people who were involved in

it. I am one of them. The place that I came from in Placentia Bay is a place

called Haystack out on Long Island, and we were victims of resettlement, but let

me tell you, Mr. Speaker, more victims in song and legend than in actual fact.

If you were to talk to the people, the majority of people who were involved in

resettlement, they would tell you that it was the proper thing to do, and it was

done at the right time, Mr. Speaker.

If you were to go to the come home years, and I have had

occasion to go to the come home years in some of those communities, you are

finding now grandchildren of the people who moved are going there, and they go

with a certain degree of nostalgia. I mean, when we hear the Wareham Brothers

songs from Placentia Bay or the Byrne Boys, oh, they are great, but believe me

when we lived there, we were pretty happy when the time came when we were

getting out of there, and we did not have to sit on the wharf waiting for the

boat to come once every two weeks or having to watch our relatives die as some

of us did living in those communities.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GILBERT: So let me tell you, this resettlement thing

they talk about: it is great when it is sang about down in the hon. Member's

club somewhere on George Street, the Harp and Thistle or whatever it is, it

might be great. In actual fact, Mr. Speaker, it is a myth like many of the other

things the Members are talking about. This Government is committed to serving

Newfoundlanders and rural Newfoundlanders and bringing them into a world that

the other people lost and forgot about for seventeen years.

MR. SPEAKER: Further petitions.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: I will switch back if the hon. Member does

not mind. The hon. the Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde - a petition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. L. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present to this

hon. House a petition signed by the residents of some twenty communities served

by the catchment area of the Old Perlican Hospital. Many of these communities

are in the District of Trinity - Bay de Verde, but some of them are from the

Carbonear district represented by my hon. colleague for Carbonear.

The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read

it: We are greatly concerned with the Government's decision as announced in the

1991-92 Budget to reduce health care services currently provided at the

hospital. Considering that the Government has stated this is the first of

perhaps three years of financial cutbacks, we perceive that by the end of this

period there will be no health care services provided in the area as in Come By

Chance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. L. SNOW: The large elderly population, the

elimination of the long-term care services, reduction and possibly elimination

of acute care services, geography and unique winter conditions are an obvious

recipe for human disaster. We fully support the efforts of the Concerned

Citizens Committee re the Budget impact on the Wilkinson Memorial Hospital. We

fully support the recommendations of the 1990 roll study for the Dr. A. A.

Wilkinson Memorial Hospital for which the Department of Health was a prime

consultant. We respectfully request that the hon. House urge the Government to

take steps that will lead to the implementation of the recommendations of the

1990 roll study and the needs assessment done.

Mr. Speaker, this petition was spearheaded by a group of

concerned citizens and was formed immediately after the Budget announcement of

the downgrading of the acute care services in the Old Perlican Hospital. The

group consists of community leaders, the mayors of many of the areas affected,

the clergy, teachers, businessmen, fishermen and other citizens who feel

strongly that the action taken by the Government is just the first step in the

eventual elimination of health care to the area delivered through the Dr. A. A.

Wilkinson Memorial Hospital.

They have a great deal of concern, Mr. Speaker, about the

health and the well-being of their families and their friends who reside in the

community served by this hospital. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that this is not

the first time, of course, that the area has been faced with the threat of

losing their hospital, and a reduction in the health care in that area. In the

early 80s the Government of the day had planned to phase down the hospital to a

24 hour clinic and to eliminate acute care services, however, the quick reaction

to such a move by the concerned citizens saw the decision reversed, Mr. Speaker,

and the 24 hour clinic was reversed to acute care services, although the number

of acute care beds at the time was downgraded to 15. At the same time the

Department of Social Services opened up the third floor of the hospital and

added the DM unit, and the hospital, however, continued to operate basically as

an acute care facility up until the present time. However, some of the acute

care beds in the area had to be used from time to time for chronic care, for

patients waiting to be placed in some chronic care facility. So over the years

some of the beds remained acute while some have been used as chronic.

In the mid '80s and the following years, Mr. Speaker, the

hospital board at the Dr. A.A. Wilkinson Memorial Hospital became affiliated

with the Conception Bay Health Board, and several years ago they merged to form

the Trinity - Conception Health Board for the area. Then the new board began

looking at the institution and the future role of the Old Perlican Hospital. As

a result a study was completed in the fall of 1990, and it was done in

conjunction with the Department of Health doing analysis of the 1984 bed study,

the Royal Commission and the 1986 bed study, and other assessments that hade

been done by the department in recent years. The conclusion of that study was

that there be 9 acute care beds and 25 chronic care beds opened up to take care

of the needs over the next 5 to 10 years in that particular area. These were

some of the recommendations of that study. It is obvious from talking to the

residents how they feel about that study now, Mr. Speaker. They feel that the

Government and the Department of Health in its recommendations on rationalizing

the health care system completely ignored this 1990 study.

Mr. Speaker, the residents of my district, who up to this

point in time received acute care at the Memorial Hospital -

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. L. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, the residents who received

acute care up to this point will now have to go to Carbonear. This will mean at

least an additional hours drive for many of the residents, along a rugged

coastline that experiences severe winter conditions. Of course, in addition to

that it means that additional demands will be placed on the Carbonear hospital,

which is already, to my understanding, utilized to maximum capacity. I have

spoken to a lot of people over the last two weeks in my area and none of them,

Mr. Speaker, see this as an improvement to the health care delivery in the area.

In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, the Carbonear hospital has 8 to 10 chronic

care units there at all times, and this will, indeed, place an additional burden

on the Carbonear hospital. However, in the Old Perlican area there are at least

8 or 10 beds which can be used to deliver chronic care at a very reasonable cost

to Government, and if we were allowed to transfer some of the chronic care units

that are presently at Carbonear, then that would alleviate some of the problems

that these people will be experiencing when they have to travel to Carbonear for

the primary care services.

Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of concern raised by the

constituents that I represent. The question is now: what will happen to the

stroke victim who comes to the Old Perlican hospital now? He will be stabilized

at the Old Perlican hospital, but where will he go from there? The acute care

beds that are left there will not be allowed to be used as chronic care, the

Carbonear hospital will not accept them because they cannot accept chronic

patients, and the other facilities, the Harbour Lodge and the Interfaith Home,

Mr. Speaker, are already filled and there is a waiting list. The patient cannot

be taken back into the community by his family because they cannot provide the

adequate care. So what is going to happen to such a case, Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying that what the

residents of the area are saying to me and to the Government is that if you are

serious about delivering health care services to the area through the A. A.

Wilkinson Memorial Hospital, then along with the four to six acute care beds

let's continue to deliver some chronic care to the patients in the area, until

we have an assessment done and looked at the role study that is being done and

is implemented.

They feel that if this does not happen then they believe that

it is the intent of Government to close the facility completely in the future.

They are asking, Mr. Speaker, for a commitment to the future care of the Doctor

A. A. Wilkinson Memorial Hospital.

Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support my hon.

colleague and friend from Trinity - Bay de Verde. I am not as, I suppose,

affected as it relates to the number of communities in my district as it relates

to my colleagues, but I do have five communities in the lower part of my

district - Northern Bay, Gull Island, Burnt Point, Job's Cove and Lower Island

Cove - that will be drastically affected by the proposed cutbacks to the A. A.

Wilkinson Hospital.

Not only affected as it relates to medical services being

provided to those people in the area but - and I have to say this because this

is a concern of mine as well as providing hospital services. I have a large

number of people from that particular area of my district that find employment

and have found employment at that hospital for the last number of years.

The thing that bothers me more than anything else about this

situation is that I tend to agree with my hon. colleague when he says that it

would cost this Government very little in the next little while to keep a small

number of chronic care beds opened in this particular hospital. We have the

figures, and both the board and my hon. colleague from Harbour Grace and my

colleague from Trinity as well as myself, have met with the health board for the

area which operates the A. A. Wilkinson. And they have made a presentation to

us, and to us it seems like we may for very little financial cost, be able to

maintain some beds in that particular hospital, to lessen the burden, I suppose,

and lessen the impact of: number one, the down servicing of medical services,

and number two; the employment.

I sympathize with my colleague from Trinity because I know

that for the last number of years he himself personally - even before being

elected to this particular House - was involved with fighting the previous

government in their proposals over the years to close this particular facility.

And now, after doing and making a commitment to the people over the years that

he has been living in the district, and fighting the previous administration,

now he is in here, I suppose, and literally fighting his own administration.

The problem that I see with closing the beds at the A. A.

Wilkinson is that the Carbonear hospital - the hospital located in my district -

I know is over-crowded at present. The occupancy rate in the Carbonear hospital

is one of the highest, if not the highest, in the Province. And we now find

ourselves in a situation in the Carbonear General where people are brought in

there from all over this district and a number of other districts that I

represent, and have to end up in corridors on stretchers. And by closing the

hospital in Old Perlican all we are going to do is add to that congested dilemma

that we are in in the Carbonear hospital.

I only hope that in the next few days when myself and my

colleague from Trinity - Bay de Verde, and as others meet with the Minister of

Health, and hopefully down the road to meet with the Premier, we will be able to

convince this Government, our Government, that possibly a second look can be

taken at that particular hospital in Old Perlican.

I stand in support of my colleague and of the idea of keeping

at least six acute care beds if not more open in the hospital in Old Perlican,

and of course the chronic care beds be added or left as they are. I think that

my hon. colleague has to be congratulated for standing in his place today and

making the comments that he has made, knowing that he is a Member of this

Government and hope - I am sure he is hoping, and I am hoping as well - that

some solution to this particular problem that we have in the Old Perlican area

can be reached.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to just

spend a couple of moments in support of the petition so ably presented by the

Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde and supported by the Member for Carbonear.

I have to say, if it was not such a serious situation it

would be almost laughable, what takes place in this House of Assembly. Sometimes

I wonder why the Newfoundland public has such little faith in politicians, when

I see what is happening to the health care system of this Province. I see the

Minister of Health who gets up today in response, or some form of response, to

some questions that I asked, that Mr. Robin Burnell, the Executive Director or

Acting Executive Director of the Newfoundland and Labrador Hospital and Nursing

Homes Association, has said that it is impossible for them to do what the

Minister of Health and Finance asked to be done with the budget amounts that

they have. They have been asked to save $25 million or $27 million, they can

only save $16 million or $17 million of that amount, they can't possibly save

the other $10 million and do it within the parameters that they were given by

the Minister of Health. Laying off 900 people, closing 430 hospital beds.

These professional people are saying that it simply cannot be

done. What we will have to do is lay off more people, we will have to extend the

Christmas closure of beds, the summer closure of beds, for extended periods of

time. And these are professional people who are saying to the Minister and to

the Premier and Treasury Board and Finance of this Province: somebody better

have a look at this situation, you have made a mistake. All they are saying is

you have made a mistake. Last week I presented a resolution here, a very simple

resolution, it was not meant to cause any great national crisis, was not meant

to overturn the Government. All I said was: because of all these strange,

different viewpoints that we are getting from professionals, patients, hospital

care workers and Members opposite, why does the Government not take its time?

Why does it not simply defer the decisions they have made, have another look at

it, and see and make sure we are not making mistakes?

Every one of the Members opposite got up and voted against

that resolution. Saying: do not defer your decision, do not have an independent

study. But then you bring in petitions in this House of Assembly that say: we

are seriously concerned in the Old Perlican area, in Carbonear, in Placentia.

Will you have another look at the situation? That is what the Member for

Placentia asked the Premier and his Assistant Deputy Minister and the Minister

the other day when he went to see him with part of a Placentia delegation.

Now, no wonder the people of Newfoundland will laugh at us as

politicians. How can we be so inconsistent? How can we say two different things

on the same day about the same issue and expect that somebody believes us? The

reality is, is that the Member for Trinity - Bay de Verde has said, is that when

the other government - us - were here, and we wanted to make health care cuts

that were drastic, that maybe were not completely well thought out, and you

asked us as a committee to reconsider, the other government listened and

reconsidered and did what - albeit not professionals but concerned citizens

groups who tend to know the issues a lot better than professionals sometimes -

asked the old government to do. When you ask this Government over here - and I

keep hearing the Ministers of Health and Education saying that: we are a

listening Government, we listen to everybody, we listen to professionals - the

reality is that this Government is not listening. It is not listening to the

concerned citizens, to professionals, or to its own Members.

Now, democracy can not function that way. You can't have

Ministers like those three little monkeys you see going around, with

hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil as their philosophy. That is not the

way to run the government. The way the government is supposed to be run is that

a government responds to the people's wishes, it listens to the Members, it

makes its decision. And all I can say is that there are real, real concerns, and

an awful lot of people in this Province are very concerned about health care.

The Member who did a noble job presenting his petition is also very concerned

and knows the issue, I suspect, better than the Minister of Health, the Premier,

and better than any health professional in the Department of Health. That Member

knows what is at issue in the old Perlican Hospital. He has been at it. It is

part of his life. It is where his family probably lives, and all I can say is,

nobody is listening to you. And I say that democracy will only function when a

Government begins to listen and to respond. And so far this Government has

one-half of the formula down pat, it seems to listen, but the ignoring of

people, ignoring their concerns is not the other half. I can only hope, Mr.

Speaker, that more petitions are presented like the hon. Member just did and

maybe some where this Government will begin to listen and to respond.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: I would like to present a petition on behalf

of approximately 225 Eastern Community College students from the District of

Burin - Placentia West. The petition is to the House of Assembly: The

Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Students, Burin Community College

Students, Council of Students at the Burin Community College protest the

possibility of financial cutbacks to the Burin Community Campus and to the

post-secondary education system.

Mr. Speaker, the students are concerned that they will have

loss of courses that are presently offered throughout the educational system,

reducing the staff levels, increases in tuition and user fees and closure of

institutions.

We the undersign request the Provincial Government to

reconsider their proposal to implement any financial constraints on the

operating budget of post-secondary institutions in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I present this petition today in the House

of Assembly and I strongly support the petition that is given to me by my

constituents throughout the Eastern Community College system. I would ask the

Minister of Education if he will stand and support or at least speak to the

resolution, because we have just seen nothing but contempt displayed in this

House by the Minister of Health, what are the people of Old Perlican going to

think tonight when they realize that the Minister of Health refused to stand and

say anything to the petition, whether he was for it or against it or anything

else? He did not even acknowledge the petition that was presented by the Member

for the area, and I think that is disgraceful. And I ask the Minister of

Education not to treat this petition with the same contempt that his colleague

just treated the petitions with.

The students in my District are concerned, and they have

every right to be concerned, because what we have seen in this year's Budget is

assistance set up where only the rich can afford to go to post-secondary

institutions from now on. The cost to students today -

DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: What is that?

DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: If the Minister of Finance has something to

say let him stand in his seat and say it, because it is he and a few others who

were hid away over there for years who probably have contributed significantly

to what has taken place in this destruction. And if one, Mr. Reid: a letter

which I saw in the paper over the weekend addressed to the Minister of Finance

and the Minister of Education from a colleague who I believe was very familiar

with both of them, a former colleague of their's, saying they were ashamed of

the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Education in how they have turned

their backs on Memorial University and other places.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: So rather than make a joke about it, he

probably should be serious and realize that in rural Newfoundland we are not

all, Mr. Speaker, living in St. John's. There are some of us who live in rural

Newfoundland and we have a right to an education the same as the people in urban

centres. The people in Beau Bois or Parker's Cove or Fox Cove or Burin or Corbin

or Epworth have a right to an education in this Province and they have a right

to an education that is not going to be too expensive. And what we have seen in

this Budget is tuition fees increased, where we have seen residence fees

increased for people coming in from out of town like we have never seen before.

It is becoming too expensive. And what is going to happen? The University will

be for the rich - the parents who can afford to pay the cost for their children

to go to university. That is who will be graduating. And if this Government

continues on the path of economic destruction that they are presently on, it

will not matter a lot because what we will have are no opportunities for people

in this Province. The Government fires 300 nurses. What does it mean? What is

the sense of a student going in for education when there are teachers being laid

off left, right and centre? Why should someone go out and get an education

degree, hoping to get a job in this Province? What opportunities are going to be

there if you get a Government as callous, as cold and as cruel towards the

people of this Province as has been displayed by the group opposite. And I speak

on behalf of my constituents who attend the Eastern Community College, and I am

sure my colleague from Grand Bank who has some constituents who have names on

this will be making his concerns known as well. So I would say to the Minister

of Education, to the Minister of Finance and to the Cabinet of Newfoundland and

Labrador, for God's sake, do something that is good for the students of this

Province. Not only that, we now find out that there is a list of probably six

vocational schools that are on the chopping block. Yes, I think it is six

throughout this Province that are going to be closed. Burin is not one of them,

but we have a Government that is prepared to cut education, to lay off teachers,

close schools and do all of that, but at the same time are prepared to spend a

fortune to take the headquarters from Burin and move it to Clarenville. They are

going to spend a fortune to do that. So if the Minister of Education is serious

when he gets up and talks about education, why would he not leave the

headquarters in Burin and spend the money that he will save on other educational

needs in this Province? Why is he trying to take the headquarters from Burin and

move it somewhere else? Then he gets up, Mr. Speaker, and there are people in

this gallery who would probably believe that the Minister of Education is

concerned about the education needs -

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, if I may, in conclusion, I

present this petition to the House, and I ask the Minister of Education not to

be as callous and as cruel and as arrogant as the Minister of Health who did not

support the people of Old Perlican. I ask him now to stand and speak on this

petition for my constituents.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to support the

petition so ably presented by my friend the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

The students of the Eastern Community College have a very good reason, Mr.

Speaker, to be concerned about the future of education in this Province, because

we have on that side of the House a complacency about education, a complacency

about the future of education in this Province and they are quite prepared to

blame it on somebody else. We heard the Minister of Education today - who may go

down in history as the Pontius Pilate of Education Ministers in this Province -

washing his hands of responsibility for what goes on at Memorial University. He

said that he hopes they will not cap enrollment. That is what he said. He did

not say we are not going to let that happen; he did not say we are going to

stand up and fight for it and we are going to make sure it does not happen. He

says he hopes that the president and the Board of Regents of Memorial University

will not cap enrollment, will not prevent people from going to university, will

not prevent access to university education because of financial reasons. He said

he is concerned about what goes on and he wants to blame the Tories in Ottawa

for cutting back on established programs financing. So the concerns, Mr.

Speaker, of these people are very well founded because this Government is

prepared to blame somebody else without fighting back.

Mr. Speaker, this is not a community council; this Government

here is not a community council that gets a limited budget and does not have any

borrowing powers, does not have any autonomy and is a creature of statute - this

is the Government of the Province, and this Government, Mr. Speaker, has a

responsibility to take its responsibilities and duties seriously and to stand up

and fight for people and to give the people some confidence that when education

is under threat that they will fight back and that they will lead that fight and

not leave it, not leave it to students having to send petitions to this House,

having to demonstrate out in the lobbies of this building, having to themselves

fight just to convince the Government that they aught to listen and aught to

fight for them.

Mr. Speaker, this petition is presented with great cause

because the cause of these students is of grave concern to all the people in the

Province of Newfoundland, and it is about the complacency of this Government

about the future of the province and about the educational standards of our

citizens. Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Education will stand up and will

convince us that he will not wash his hands of the students of this Province and

their needs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I want to inform the Member for Burin -

Placentia West that the board will shortly be presenting to me their proposals

for living within the budget that they have this year. I have confidence in that

board, it's Chairperson and it's President that they will do everything possible

to avoid the kinds of cuts that he is predicting. I have some evidence they will

not do what he is predicting, but they have a serious problem with funding and I

am sure that Dr. Marsh and his group will do everything possible to eliminate

things that do not impact negatively on students in the classroom and I have

confidence they will do what is right. But they have a difficult problem as the

Government has this year, and many governments in Canada.

Secondly, I do not know how I am going to get it through the

hon. Member's head that we are closing two headquarters and combining them into

one. That is going to save money. We are closing another headquarters in

Carbonear, we are closing one on the Burin Peninsula, we are opening one in

Clarenville. Now how can I get it through to him that in the long run that is

downsizing, and that is going to save us money? We have some problems, we will

not do it right away, over the next few months, but in the long run it is going

to be better educationally and it is going to be more efficient.

Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. John's East: I am amused by

his comments. He should know that the Board of Regents has control over

programming. I am amazed that the hon. Member for St. John's East, after being

in Ottawa, knows so little about the facts of life in this country. He shocks me

every day -

AN HON. MEMBER: He's ignorant!

DR. WARREN: -by how little he knows - well, you call it

ignorance, I, lack of knowledge. I am being kinder to him. The Member for St.

John's East was in Ottawa, he knows about equalization payments, he knows about

established programme funding, he knows about all of this. Mr. Speaker, he knows

that we have severe problems as a result of the Federal Government. He should

know that the University makes decisions. We give them a global budget and they

make decisions on their policies. The Government has not intervened with the

University in the past and it will not. We must leave the final decision to

them. We do consult with them, we give them our views, but they make the final

decisions.

Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps I should end there. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. GOVER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise

today to present a petition to the House of Assembly from 288 residents of the

districts of Bonavista South and Trinity North.

The petition is signed by residents from Bonavista, Elliston,

Spillars Cove, Newmans Cove and Catalina, which is in the district of Trinity

North. The prayer of the petition is: we the undersigned, representing 1,130

children of Cabot Collegiate, which is in Bonavista, and Matthew Elementary

School in Bonavista, strongly oppose any educational cutbacks. Already our

children suffer enough through lack of some vital necessities conducive to a

quality education. A further reduction in the level of education will only serve

to reduce our children's hope of becoming strong and productive adults.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many signed it?

MR. GOVER: Two hundred and eighty-eight. We back this

statement with the words of our Minister of Education, Dr. Phil Warren:

Newfoundland and Labrador's development depends on improving the quality of

education, and future economic success depends more on improvements in education

than any other single factor.

So, Mr. Speaker, that is the prayer of the petition from the

residents of my particular district. Now before I get into the main allegations

in the petition, I certainly agree that no one in this House of Assembly would

like to see money taken out of the educational system. In fact I believe the

Minister, when he had a recent press conference, accepted the fact that the

education system could use more money. However, the needs of the education

system had to be balanced against the needs of the other priorities of the

Province as they were seen at the present time.

So none of us is for education cutbacks, we are all opposed

to them. It is a question of priorities. And with respect to priorities, I

suppose one of the most important things for primary, secondary and elementary

education in rural Newfoundland is the School Tax Equalization Grant. I would

note, under the former administration in 1986 the amount of money put into the

grant was $2 million, and in 1987 the amount was increased to $2.5 million, and

in 1988 increased to $4.5 million. Well, that was the previous administration's

commitment to education in rural Newfoundland. They had a School Tax

Equalization Grant of $4.5 million, increased from $2 million in 1986.

And when, I am pleased to say, the real change Government

took power, the School Tax Equalization for rural Newfoundland was increased

from $4.5 million to $10 million. That is hardly a commitment to resettlement in

this Province. In fact, that is a commitment to rural Newfoundland.

The other point I would like to make about this real change

Government and its commitment to education in rural Newfoundland, and in

particular its commitment to education in the district of Bonavista South, is

that when this Government took power the capital budget for new school

construction in the Province was increased from $20 million, which was the

figure under the previous administration, to $27 million, and that figure has

been maintained in the current budget year. And as a result of that increase

from $20 million to $27 million, I am pleased to say that the new regional high

school at Bonavista can go ahead on schedule, in fact, on an accelerated

schedule, and will be the only new regional high school in the Province which

will have a link to a community college campus, being the campus at Bonavista.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. GOVER: No, I am not announcing it on behalf of the

DEC, I am just stating the fact that because there is $20 million - you had $20

million in there, we had $27 million in there, the dominational education

councils could accelerate their plans due to the increased commitment to rural

Newfoundland that was in our education budget, which is hardly a commitment to

resettlement.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. GOVER: Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman there

from Burin -Placentia West says that there are six campuses in the Province that

are under-utilized and it is no secret that the Bonavista campus is one of those

campuses that is under-utilized. Now, it is also no secret that the Federal

Tories in Ottawa are systematically getting out of the fields of post-secondary

education and health, that they are capping EPF funding, and by the year 2004

there will be no Federal contribution in terms of cash to the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador for post-secondary education in this Province. Now

what on earth the hon. gentleman should do, if he is really concerned about

post-secondary education in this Province is to try to persuade his Federal

colleagues in Ottawa to remove the cap on EPF financing so these six campuses

will not be in jeopardy.

Now also, he raises the issue about the headquarters in

Burin, and what educational benefit that move could have when the headquarters

is moved from Burin to Clarenville. Well now the first thing I would like to do

on the cost aspect of it; I estimate to go from Bonavista to Burin would be at

least 3 and a half hours making it a 7 hour return trip. To go from Clarenville

to Burin would be a 2 hour trip making it a 4 hour return trip, which would be

11 hours. Now, if you put the campus in Clarenville, Clarenville to Bonavista, 1

and a half, 3 hours return, Burin to Clarenville, 2 hours, 4 hours return, 7

hours. So we go from 11 hours of travel return down to 7 hours of travel return.

MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. GOVER: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, with respect to this

particular petition - to conclude, Mr. Speaker, just one second. With respect to

this particular petition everyone does not want to see cutbacks in education.

The Government has a student first policy, and if there is any negative impact

from the restraint measures -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's time is up. No leave.

MR. GOVER: - imposed by this particular Government I will

seek redress on the Minister of Education.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. GOVER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge receipt of

the petition and I want to assure the petitioners that we are very cognisant of

their wishes. I might say that a lot of the petitions, Mr. Speaker, were written

before the Budget - a lot of the petitions in elementary and secondary

education. Since the Budget was released, most of the concerns at the elementary

and secondary level have been allayed. We are not losing additional teachers

over and above declining enrollments - I think we are losing about 11. There is

no cut in transportation, Mr. Speaker, as parents had expected and were

concerned about. In fact, we have more money, even with the salary freeze and

transportation. There is no cut in student assistants programs. We are going to

have the same number of student assistants as we had last year. As the hon.

Member, my friend, has pointed out, we have kept the $27 million per capital,

that is a $7 million increase over the former administrations allotment. We have

frozen the operational grants to school boards. So really since the Budget has

been released, most of the people at the elementary and secondary level have

communicated to us their belief that they can get by and can do very well and

maintain high quality education with the monies made available this year, Mr.

Speaker. So there will not be, let me repeat, there will not be substantial cuts

in elementary and secondary. There will be some throughout the Province in

certain areas, some minor cuts, but school boards have guaranteed me that they

can maintain the quality of education with the monies being made available this

coming year. And I am very pleased with their reaction in the K to 12 sector,

their reaction to the Budget, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to speak to and

support the petition presented by the Member for Bonavista South on behalf of

people on the Bonavista Peninsula opposing cuts in funding to education, both

education and also adult and continuing education.

The Member for Bonavista South said that nobody is in favour

of educational funding cuts. If that is so, why did he and his Government put

through a budget last year projecting a current account surplus of $10 million,

yet involving eliminating the hospital schools outside St. John's, half of which

were reinstated after months of pressure, and which included slashing funding

for substitute teachers which had the effect - and is continuing to have the

effect - of thwarting plans for professional development for teachers?

Last year there was not a money problem but there sure was an

attitude problem, and there sure was a lack of consistency with the election

platform put forward two short years ago from now. If you remember, two years

ago the Premier was going about this Province promising to construct new

university campuses in each part of the Province. There was going to be a campus

of Memorial University in central Newfoundland; there was going to be a

university campus in northern Newfoundland; and another one in Labrador. Now

there were people at the time who questioned whether the Province could afford

that but Clyde Wells promised to build university campuses in every part of the

Province. I wonder if he had checked the financial records of the Province when

he so glibly made those campaign promises.

In his first year in office he went through the charade of

calling for proposals for the site of the central Newfoundland university

campus, and municipalities and groups in that region took the Premier at his

word. They did considerable research, made proposals, only to be told: sorry, we

can't afford it. What the Government has in fact done is reduce funding to the

campuses of the University at St. John's and Corner Brook and eliminated

entirely Extension Service, the arm of the University to rural Newfoundland and

Labrador.

So the Member for Bonavista South, as well as the Education

Minister, are being totally hypocritical and inconsistent. Inconsistent with

their election promises, inconsistent with their actions compared to their

statements of theory now. The petition addressed education at every level. At

the post-secondary level they must be worried about losing their Bonavista

campus of the Eastern Community College. The Member for the area did not mention

that. There has been considerable talk that the Education Minister - who for

some reason that he is yet to explain, short-changed community colleges and

institutes most severely of all the sectors of education - is getting ready to

approve the elimination of the community college campuses in places like

Bonavista.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education, unlike the Premier,

talks about the problems caused by the cut in Federal transfers for

post-secondary education, the EPF reductions. We in the Opposition share that

concern. The reduction in EPF to the provinces began under Prime Minister

Trudeau in the early 'eighties and it has been continued and accelerated by

Prime Minister Mulroney and his administration. We deplore that. We are on

record as opposing the reduction in EPF because it is transferring an impossible

burden to the provinces which have a constitutional responsibility of delivering

education and health.

However, the current EPF projection will not result in the

elimination of EPF. The Premier has recognised that, although some of his

colleagues are saying things to the contrary. But given what this Government has

to work with, they are not doing justice to the educational needs of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. They have a money problem this year, and part

of it was of their own making. More of it had to do with the economy

Provincially and nationally, and with Federal Government policies, but there is

no question that the current financial problems -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MS. VERGE: - facing this Province have been compounded by

the ineptness and incompetence of the Wells' administration.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present a

petition on behalf of students attending the Burin campus of the Eastern

Community College who are concerned, as well, about cutbacks in education. The

prayer of the petition says: We, the undersigned, request that the Provincial

Government reconsider their proposals to impose any financial constraints on the

operating budget of any post-secondary institutions in Newfoundland and

Labrador. So this is another group of students who are very, very concerned

about cutbacks in education and the effects that will have throughout the

Province.

I have heard various petitions presented today and people

responding, and I must say I have to commend the Member for Trinity - Baie

Verde, Mr. Speaker, today on presenting his petition. He stuck to the prayer of

his petition and supported the petition. He did not do like the Member for

Bonavista South and other Members, who stood in their places over the last week

and presented petitions and then half way through backed off and, in essence,

supported the Government. They really have not supported their constituents.

But I want to say that I strongly support these students and

their call on Government to not impose any further hardship on post-secondary

education in this Province. The students at Eastern Community College, Burin

Campus, are very, very concerned about what is happening, and they want the

Government to be aware of their concerns.

Now I have to say, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education

spoke a bit earlier in response to the Member for Burin - Placentia West and he

talked about the headquarters for Eastern Community College and why he took it

out of Salt Pond and put it in Clarenville. Then the Member for Bonavista South

talked about travel distances, and it was the most wishy-washy argument I have

ever heard. Because wherever the headquarters is located, then the people there

do not have to travel anywhere, but all the other campuses have to travel. Any

way you balance it out it amounts to about the same, so you are not going to

save anything.

Now what I would like to say to the Minister of Education is

that he has a five year contract in Salt Pond for office space there that he is

going to have to honour and the Government is going to have to pay for. How he

figures he is going to save money out of that I do not know. If he had chosen to

keep the headquarters in Carbonear I would understand, because there

accommodations were in buildings owned by the college, I believe. I do not think

they were paying rent, although I am not sure about that. But if that was the

case, then that was his best option to save money, in Carbonear.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) supported putting it in Burin

(inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: No, I would not have supported putting it

in Carbonear over Burin, but the Minister could certainly have made a better

argument for having the headquarters located in Carbonear as opposed to

Clarenville. The Minister could certainly have made a better case if you were

being honest with your reasons for doing so, but you were not that. You were not

honest with your reasons, and you are still going to cost the Government and the

Board of Directors of the Eastern Community College five years rent for office

space in Salt Pond, and he now has to go to Clarenville and rent more space for

headquarters. So in essence he is going to be paying rental fees for two spaces

for headquarters for Eastern Community College when there is only need for one.

How can the Minister stand in front of this House and say he is going to save

money? How can he do it? He is paying for space for two headquarters for the

next five years.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that out and about this

Province there is such a fear amongst those participating, enrolled in

post-secondary programs, a fear that we have never seen in this Province before.

In the prayer of this petition they talk about cutbacks that will result in loss

of courses presently offered and reduced staff levels. The Minister stood in his

place and said there would be 100 people laid off in the community college

system alone - the community college system alone in this Province - perhaps

more; maybe 200 by the time the Minister is finished, but it is more than 100.

There is 100 at the university. We do not know how many at the institutes. We

have not heard that yet. Increased tuition fees. We know that is happening -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Know what, that tuition fees are not going

up?

DR. WARREN: I said more than 100 in (inaudible).

MR. MATTHEWS: Exactly. In your announcement you said

there were going to be 100 people laid off in the community college system.

Today he is saying there will be more than 100. So knowing the Government

figures with the Budget, where a $10 million surplus turned into a $215 million

deficit, I will not be surprised if the Minister's announced 100 layoffs turn

into 200 layoffs. That is their mathematics, that is the way they do their math

these days in this Government. And I want to say -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) the way you fellows done it.

MR. MATTHEWS: Now listen, Mr. Speaker, listen to old

pickles Efford himself over there. He is more concerned about pickles and

clearing brush so he doesn't run into anymore moose than he is about anything

else in this Province. That is the biggest problem he has. That is the biggest

problem you have, running into moose.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

MR. MATTHEWS: I support the petition, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support

of the petition presented by my colleague, the Member for Grand Bank. I can tell

the Minister of Education and the House that we are both very concerned about

our constituents; I did not stand right away because I thought the Member for

Fortune - Hermitage, who had some students' signatures to the petition, would

probably like to stand in support of his constituents. Unfortunately, the Member

for Fortune - Hermitage has not supported his constituents in Fortune -Hermitage

and the Eastern Community College, as he has not supported his constituents

since he decided some time ago that he was going to try and become a Member of

the Liberal caucus. He has not supported the Eastern Community College students,

he has supported the health care cutbacks on the Burin Peninsula, he has not

supported the Marystown Shipyard, he has supported the layoffs and the closing

of beds in the Harbour Breton Hospital, he has not supported the people of Ramea

or the people of Gaultois on their ferry, he has not supported the people of

Gaultois on their fish plant. Mr. Speaker he has supported nothing for which

these constituents stand.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who is that?

MR. TOBIN: The Member for Fortune - Hermitage. He refused

to stand and support this petition and there are constituents of his attending

Eastern Community College.

AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible). Repeat it all for me.

MR. TOBIN: Repeat it all for you? Yes, sure.

AN HON. MEMBER: He will have to read it tomorrow, in

Hansard.

MR. TOBIN: I have every intention of doing it. I am sure

they will give me leave, Mr. Speaker, and I will do it when I am finished.

Now having said all that, I stand here and support my

constituents as did my colleague for Grand Bank, as did not the Member for

Fortune - Hermitage. Why have I stood here on two or three occasions today

supporting petitions, Mr. Speaker? In case my colleagues are concerned, there

are another 500 sheets here that I will be presenting this week, next week and

the week after.

AN HON. MEMBER: One at a time.

MR. TOBIN: One at a time probably, until the Minister of

Education finally listens. Because we are concerned on the Burin Peninsula about

the action, or the lack of action, by this Government. We are concerned that the

education system in this Province is being brought to its knees. Today, I want

to say, that I was very happy to see Your Honour, who is now in the Chair, stand

and be very critical of this Government and what they are doing in terms of

health care in his area, very critical. And we saw the Member for Bonavista

South standing with a petition, and if only the people of Bonavista South could

have seen the way he presented that petition. If you were ever to see a person

talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, it was the Member for

Bonavista South.

Stand up and lay it on the floor what you think about this

Government and how they are cutting back the education system. Do you know what

is proposed for the Bonavista campus?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, if you do you should be more forceful,

you should be going to the Minister of Education and to the Premier and telling

them you are not going to tolerate it, that no one in caucus should have to

tolerate the closing down of vocational schools in this Province. And that is

what it is coming to. They are closing down everything. The Minister of Health

is closing so many hospitals beds he should consider becoming an undertaker. It

is the only thing left for him to do. There is nothing else left. What is

happening in this Province? The education system is being gutted and there is

nothing about it. Closing down schools: Today they are marching in Ferryland, I

believe, because of the fact that this Government will not give enough money for

education.

They are talking about closing schools and the amalgamation

of schools here in the city of St. John's, as they are in the rest of the

Province, and the Minister of Education sits there with a nice smile on his face

and that is about as deep as his concern is for education in this Province. What

did my colleague for St. John's East call him? The Pontius Pilate of the

educational system, and I believe he is right.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you good friends?

MR. TOBIN: Oh yes. For many years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: For many years we have been good friends. Long

before I knew some of the Members Opposite, as a matter of fact.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS. VERGE: (Inaudible) all over here?

MR. TOBIN: Myself and the Member for St. John's East were

friends when the President of Treasury Board was running for the NDP, when the

Member for Pleasantville was a candidate for the NDP, when half the caucus over

there were Conservatives; the Member for St. Barbe was a Member of the NDP as

well, I understand. I was a friend of my colleague here when the Member for

Bonavista South was a poll captain, I believe, for me down in Burin - Placentia

West. That is how far we go back.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. TOBIN: Bonavista South.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, the Member for Bonavista South. I think

he was a poll captain. He had some role in the 1985 election, in my campaign in

any case, and on the night of the victory party he danced the whole night with

joy and delight. That is the Member for Bonavista South a lot of you do not know

about. As a matter of fact, he articled with one of the best lawyers in this

Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. Member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Very briefly, I am

pleased to receive the hon. Member's petition and I want to assure the people of

this Province that despite what they are hearing from the Opposition, we have

not devastated the education system this year. In fact, even with a salary

freeze, Mr. Speaker, we have added 3 per cent to the Education budget - $795

million in education. I am the first to admit, Mr. Speaker, that there is not

enough money. We want more money, and we are going to provide more in the

future, but I can assure you we have not cut dollars. We cannot provide all the

services that are needed, but this Government is committed to education. We are

looking to the education system as a means of preparing our people for the 21st

century. Education is a priority for this Government and will continue to be,

Mr. Speaker. Thank you, very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - the

Capes.

MR. HEARN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like

to present a petition on behalf of a number of students at the Port aux Basques

Community College. The petition, I know, will be supported by the Member for

that area. It says: We, the undersigned, request the Provincial Government to

reconsider proposals to impose any financial constraints on the operation budget

of any post-secondary institutions in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Minister just now, as he has been doing for quite some

time since the Budget came down, is defending his budget and telling about the

increases. Perhaps the Minister will someday outline the increases and discuss

the impact of each increase, and then outline the decreases and discuss the

impact of the decreases. Because where dollars really count, the Minister has

not added any funding. We have a petition here from a community college, as we

have had petitions from several others, as we will have petitions from several

more, and the grants this year to institutes and community colleges have

decreased. In fact, they are down by $1.5 million - that is in real dollars -

$1.5 million from last year. When we factor in a 5.7 inflation rate we have an

idea of what effect the cuts are having. I use the word `cuts'. It is not a

freeze it is a cut, a $1.5 million cut over last year, and when you factor in

the inflation rate it is a severe cut to institutes and community colleges that

not only needed to hold the line, but needed 5.7 to keep their heads even with

the water. And, of course, to move forward as education institutions like to do,

they needed even more funding than that.

We also see the Minister playing around with his dollars to

the university, about the big increase Memorial got. Memorial got an increase of

$1 million, a big increase for a post-secondary institution. It does not even

cover the inflation rate. He talks about an increase in tuition, and we find out

that instead of a $3.5 million increase it is a $1.4 million increase. When we

look at all the public servants being laid off, when we look at the job

opportunities being cut, when we look at the jobs that the students would

ordinarily get which are now being taken up by laid off public service people,

we realize that many students attending post-secondary institutions will need

more money not less.

So education has been devastated, Mr. Speaker. In fact,

unless Government changes its mind, the blow that is presently being dealt will

drive our education system back several years and it will take us a long time to

regain the lost initiative that we see here presently. Maybe when the Member for

LaPoile, representing the great town of Port aux Basques, stands to support the

prayer of the petition he will also implore Government to change its mind about

cutbacks, especially to institutes. As a number of Members have said, we have

not yet heard announced the result of the cutbacks to the various community

colleges and institutes. We will very shortly, and we are aware that the news

will be devastating: loss of jobs, loss of programs, etc. That is not the way to

improve the economy of the Province. If we are going to invest, the investment

should be in education. The actual Budget this year is $100 million more than

last year's Budget, so at least in education we should be able to hold the line

and add a little bit, instead of decreasing grants to these various

institutions. We see money being wasted, being thrown away on Enterprise

Newfoundland, which could easily go into the education system that would create

more jobs.

So hopefully the Government will reconsider. What we have

seen, what has been demonstrated clearly by some of their own Members in

particular, as well as all the groups and agencies across the Province, is that

there was absolutely no consultation during the decision process in relation to

what was going to be cut. So if they went out with reckless abandonment and just

cut the budgets of these hospitals and schools and institutes, then maybe it is

time to sit back and do as we suggested, take the six month hoist to look at and

reassess their position. Because if they go ahead on the present course the

devastation caused, it will take us a tremendously long time to recover from it,

Mr. Speaker. I look forward now to the Member for LaPoile standing up and

supporting the petition of his constituents.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Quickly on this

matter, this petition, albeit the intent of it is to improve the educational

system for the students concerned, the prayer of the petition is, of course,

something that goes directly against the Government's efforts to try to improve

the educational system.

Now I support the constituents' desire to have improved

educational services provided to them through the community college system and

the variety of different institutes and that available throughout the Province,

but I think the problem we have is one that has been created over the years by a

preponderance of colleges which have fulfilled their usefulness, I guess, to the

communities they have served in a certain role, pre-vocational training

initially. Now they have to adapt and evolve to focus their provision of courses

to the job market as it now sits here in the Province and, as well, throughout

the country as a whole.

What we have in a lot of colleges around is course offerings

that do nothing to improve the opportunities for the students concerned. Now in

some cases there are. Here in the capital city where you have certain courses

being offered it is not too bad. You have some that are very well targeted. But

if, for instance, we look at certain courses offered, such as hair styling,

there seems now to be a preponderance of unemployed people in that particular

trade. So it is obvious that the offering in, say, one area does not necessarily

target the market.

Now if you look at what a rationalization of education might

have to be done, I note that in 1982 the former Minister of Education - at that

time I think it was the hon. Member for Humber East - laid off 120 instructors

and rationalized the overall programme. Now this is the kind of -

AN HON. MEMBER: How many?

MR. RAMSAY: - 120 instructors at that time, and that was

1982. So we are doing something now that has never been done before, it is the

kind of thing that just has to be done as we rebuild the education system to

target the future.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many of them?

MR. RAMSAY: 120 instructors.

AN HON. MEMBER: And who was the Minister?

MR. RAMSAY: The Minister was the hon. the Member for

Humber East, I think, at that time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, she did not.

MR. RAMSAY: Oh yes she did. Anyway, at that time the

courses were taken out of the system because the system was such that these

courses were not offering pre-employment opportunities and training that could

be used by people here in the Province. Likewise now, some adjustments have to

be made. I am very proud to say that in our own institution, in Port aux

Basques, the campus of Western Community College a number of years ago was

targeted by the local community futures committee to receive upgrading in the

skills that they could offer to a variety of people: they have improved the

welding course, they offer NDT, and most of these at the initiative, I might

add, of local people in the area, supported of course by the Federal Government,

with Federal Government funding, and funding from the offshore development fund,

of which the Province was - but a lot of this was done totally by the local

group, much to the chagrin, at times, of Provincial representatives, because

they wanted to make sure it went where they wanted it to go.

But what we have now is a centre of excellence for welding at

the Port aux Basques campus that will see our institute, the Western Community

College campus in Port aux Basques, maintain itself now and into the future

because they have adapted. And this is what other institutions throughout the

island have to do.

So, to the petition, I support the efforts of the individuals

to have an improved education system. But in so far as trying to get the

Government to change its mind and slow down, I do not think it would benefit

anyone, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad to support

the petition of students at the Port aux Basques campus of the Western Community

College calling on the Government not to cut funding for education and

protesting the downgrading of courses and services, as well protesting the

possibility of increased tuition and other fees.

Mr. Speaker, the day after the Budget was delivered, on

Friday March 8, the Minister of Education and his staff had representatives of

the approximately 30 school boards in the Province as well as representatives of

the community colleges and institutes congregate at Confederation Building, for

a briefing on the Budget. Now it would be interesting for us to find out the

cost of travel for all those education administrators. I suspect it amounted to

the salary for one of the instructors or teachers being eliminated from the

system.

At the briefing, the Minister of Education and his officials

told the gathering that of the education sectors, of the different parts of the

education delivery system, community colleges and institutes were cut the worst.

Now I have never heard the Minister own up to that or explain it, but it seems

to be a fact that community colleges and institutes have been dealt with the

most severely of all the sectors of education in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, the cuts to community colleges and institutes

are forcing volunteer board members and administrators to look at unpalatable

options, options such as closing completely campuses of community colleges,

terminating multi-year programs, basically leaving students up the creek without

a paddle and forcing them to re-locate to complete their programs.

The Member for LaPoile said that much of the community

college offering is now irrelevant. Now he did not comment on whether there is

any irrelevance at Port aux Basques. Perhaps he thinks that the irrelevant

courses and facilities are at Bonavista or Bell Island. Perhaps he thinks the

irrelevant offerings are somewhere else.

Mr. Speaker, let me assure the Member for LaPoile and Members

opposite that when I was a Minister of Education from 1979 to 1985 adjustments

were made in vocational school offerings. There was a re-organization plan

mounted that resulted in the decentralizing of authority for non-university

post-secondary education through the setting up of the community college and

institute system, but, Mr. Speaker, adjustments then meant additions as well as

subtractions. How would the Member for LaPoile explain is the Government now, to

make any additions, make any improvements with slashed budgets for the community

colleges and institutes? I submit to him that this Government will, indeed, make

adjustments, and they will all be negative adjustments, they will all be

subtractions of courses and facilities and increases in user fees for the

students. I suggest to the Member for LaPoile that he re-think his commitment to

the provincial Liberal Party and the Wells administration because the Government

is not doing what the Premier said they would do two years ago when the election

campaign was on the go. And the Government is not doing what the Member for

LaPoile seems to want them to do, or at any rate the Government is certainly not

doing what the residents of southwestern Newfoundland expect the Government to

do and what they expected when they voted for the Member for LaPoile.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: An excellent job.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. BAKER: Motion 3, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion 3.

It is moved and seconded that I do leave the Chair for the

House to resolve itself into a Committee of The Whole on Supply. All those in

favour 'Aye'?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: Those against 'Nay'?

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEWLETT: See we have these short ten minute speeches,

Mr. Chairman, I thought I might pick a theme and dwell on it to some extent.

With the indulgence of the hon. the Member for Exploits, my theme for today will

be smoke screens, Mr. Chairman. It is a theme I have elaborated on some time ago

in this hon. House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. HEWLETT: Some time ago, first when this Government

got itself elected to office, much to its surprise, I might add, it decided all

of a sudden that it had to come up with something to give an appearance of

governing the Province. The hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount, being a former

municipal councillor and now a Member of the new Government, came up with this

brilliant scheme of amalgamating one hundred and forty some odd communities

throughout our Province. It provided sufficient commotion for the better part of

a year to help this Government try some form or another and get itself organized

after being elected much to its surprise.

Now that particular smoke screen, Mr. Chairman; the smoke is

still drifting around. Municipal government is in a total shambles. The three

islands in Green Bay that were on the list to be amalgamated; I do not think

they have been told yet and it is nearly two years. They know they are still

islands, Mr. Speaker, but they have never been told first nor last whether or

not they are going to be amalgamated or not. The way things are going with the

new grant system etc. one wonders, in due course, if they are still going to be

communities or not. I fear deeply that my district will be greatly depopulated

at the hands of this administration. When the smoke clears there will be a lot

less people in Green Bay than first when I was elected. That was the first smoke

screen.

Then the Premier got on the constitutional bandwagon and

started another smoke screen, and that was Meech Lake. That smoke screen turned

out to be a raging brush fire. It got really out of control. The country ended

up in tremendous jeopardy and today we have Mr. Spicer in town sifting through

the ashes and wreckage of the ruination of the nation. That started off as our

Premier's smoke screen to distract people from their woes at home with his dance

on the constitutional stage - on the national stage.

One other smoke screen that I have accused this Government of

perpetrating of late, Mr. Chairman, is with regard to hydropower development in

Labrador. There has been a continuous steady chatter out of my hon. colleague,

the Minister of Energy, with regard to the closeness of an agreement with the

Province of Quebec and that we shall shortly see a major hydroelectrical deal

following on the heels of Hibernia.

However, Mr. Chairman, one wonders if to some extent all the

positive chatter is indeed not another smoke screen to cover up for the woes of

the recession that our people are feeling and the woes that our people are

feeling as a result of this Government's budgetary measures in dealing with that

recession.

For instance, Mr. Speaker, with regard to a hydro development

in Labrador, there is a tremendous question now generally with regard to hydro

developments in northern areas, period, insofar as it relates to aboriginal

rights and land claims of that sort. The environmental process has to be done

all over again and that is a process that often takes years. There is on the

books a Federal/Provincial Crown Corporation designed to facilitate the

development of the Lower Churchill River system. So far it has not been kicked

into action to facilitate this development. From answers I have received from

the hon. Minister on the Order Paper, the answers to two questions I put on the

Order Paper, one can only indicate that it would appear that the Federal

Government is not yet committed to helping to further such a project. Given the

fact that a year or so ago it dropped the proposed mega project in the energy

field out West one has the feeling that Hibernia may be the last major energy

project that the Federal Government puts its commitment to for some time. The

power line to the island of this Province will cost upwards of $2 billion and

there is no way on earth that can be financed without substantial loan

guarantees and/or cash infusions from the Federal Government. From a newspaper

story I saw in one of the weekend papers it would appear that the Federal

Government is not altogether in a tremendous haste, given its budgetary

constraints, which our Minister of Finance seems very sympathetic about. The

Federal Government is not altogether in great haste to heap tons of money, the

billions it would require to start another major energy project, namely the

Lower Churchill river system. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, so far we have gotten very

little concrete action out of this Government at all, a lot of talk and bluster,

and a lot of smoke screens. We have had cuts where they promised to expand,

especially in the fields of health and education, which are suppose to be the

fields where Liberals are suppose to excel. The only positive thing that has

happened during the tenure of this Government is the fact that the Hibernia deal

has been signed, and that was as a result of a long, hard struggle against the

Federal Liberal Government by former Premier Peckford. Mr. Speaker, that is the

only thing that happened, it is the only bright spot in the economy, and the

jobs it would create were wiped out in the recent Budget. At peak, 3500 jobs, I

understand, will come from Hibernia and that is short-term construction work.

This Government just wiped out 3000 permanent civil service jobs so we have

probably taken one step forward and two steps back, even with Hibernia on the

go. Mr. Speaker, smoke and mirrors are what this crowd is all about. They have

no plans for Newfoundland, I would think, except to drive most of us out of here

- to where, I do not know. I gather from listening to CBC radio that my comment

about going to Kuwait for your stamps is correct, in that some American company

down there has had calls in the order of 100 a day from Newfoundland, saying if

you are going over for the rebuilding of Kuwait let me know because I want a

job, I am desperate for a job. Clyde Wells promised me a job, he promised to

bring home my brother and give him a job, but there are no jobs. This Government

has failed miserably to deliver on the promises it made to the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador. I think finally people are seeing through the smoke.

The smoke is clearing and all we have is a stinging in our eyes and an emptiness

in our future.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I listened with interest as the hon. Member for Trinity - Bay

de Verde presented a petition on behalf of his constituents. I can see, as other

people in this House can see and hear, the concern he has for his constituents

with regard to the delivery of health care. He expressed himself eloquently.

Albeit he convinced a lot of the people in the backbenches, private members, I

only hope the people who sit in Cabinet, who make the decisions to close down

hospitals such as he is concerned about, were listening. I hope they heard the

message he was delivering on behalf of his constituents, as I hope they hear the

message I deliver on behalf of constituents in Menihek who have real concerns

about the quality of health care that is going to be able to be delivered by the

Captain William Jackman Memorial Hospital after they have to institute the cuts

that were necessary because of the mismanagement and bungling of this

administration.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEWLETT: You tell them.

MR. A. SNOW: In my District, in Labrador West, the

Captain William Jackman Memorial Hospital was built in 1965 by the mining

companies that produce iron ore in the area. I listened with a certain amount of

interest last week when another private Member in this House talked about how a

previous Liberal Administration had created the infrastructures in Western

Labrador to allow the development of the mines in Western Labrador. I believe

that if you were to check history, the infrastructure provided in Western

Labrador was largely provided by the private sector not by the public sector.

Neither the Federal Government nor the Provincial Government provided the

railroad that transports the iron ore out of Western Labrador. They did not

build that railroad, the iron ore companies built that railroad. The Government

did not build the schools in Labrador in the 1960s. There was only one that I

know of, maybe two, that was funded by the Provincial Government. All the other

schools, the hospital, all the roads, that type of thing, all the infrastructure

in those communities was put there by the mining companies, by the private

sector, not by a previous Liberal Administration. I might add it was probably

one of the biggest mistakes made in the overall development of Labrador,

allowing that to occur, because I believe it is the responsibility of Government

to provide an infrastructure to allow the private sector to do business. That is

what a Government should be doing.

But, Mr. Chairman, I want to tell this House and the people

of this Province about what happens when health care is cut in Western Labrador,

because we do not have the option of driving for one hour or two hours to go to

an adjacent hospital. We live in northern Labrador. If a person were to be

injured on a project, on one of the industrial complexes, I believe if you were

to investigate you would find that the three industrial complexes that are

serviced by this hospital is undoubtedly the largest industrial complex combined

in this Province, and in all of Eastern Canada, I would suspect.

There is only one surgeon there at the hospital. And that

surgeon, by the way, may not even be there today if it had not been for the fact

that the Salvation Army operates, administers the Captain William Jackman

Memorial Hospital. The previous surgeon who had been there had an ac