ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 1668 - 8:00 p.m., MO NDAY, 23 JANUARY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province ol Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTET�Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Sprk,gfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NOP NDP PC NOP PC PC PC NDP NOP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NOP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NOP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 23 January, 1984. Time - 8:00 p.m. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON RESOLUTI ON CONSTIT UTIONAL AMENDMEN T RE: OFFI CIAL LANGUAGES MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General and the amendment thereto proposed by the Honourable House Leader, and the sub-amendment thereto proposed by the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. The Honourable Mem ber for Rh ineland has 40 minutes. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I must reiterate the statements that my colleague the Member for Lakeside made before that really it is no longer a pleasure to speak on this particular issue, but speak on it we will. We will speak on it for a very simple reason and that is, that as every day goes by the support for our position seems to be strengthening within the province and this, of course, encourages us to speak on this particular topic of how the French language within the Province of Manitoba and the amendment and the sub-amendment which was moved today by my colleague the Member for Fort Garry. One must ask, Mr.

Speaker, why does the government want to proceed with this amendment at this particular time? What, indeed, is the urgency for them to continue keeping this one pa rticular top ic in front of thi s Legislature when there are so many other issues that need to be resolved? We know that the people by and large in the province, they want this particular issue to go away. The people in my constituency certainly are fed up with us speaking on this one particular issue only. They would like to see us get along with some of the more important things within this province, such as the economy and issues of unemployment.

But what kind of a government does we have? The y persist, Mr. Speak er, on having this one particular issue in front of this Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: They insist that we get up and speak on that particular issue without any debate except for some odd heckling from them while members from this side are speaking on the issue, but outside of that we hear very little response from the members of that side which certainly leads us to believe, Mr.

Speaker, that they've just run out of things for them say on this particular issue, and that they are satisfied now to stay with the position that they have put forward and just listen to what we have to say. Now, Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Member for Fort Garry, today offered them an alternative in which they could get out of this gracefully, an alternative which by far the large majority of this province would be only too willing to accept and, Mr. Speaker, we could go on with the business of the province if that particular sub­ amendment would be adopted. Now surely, Mr.

Speaker, we are reasonable people within this province and within this Legislature. Certainly we should be able to resolve this problem regarding French services and making these services available wherever they are needed. There is absolutely nobody on this side that is saying that wherever these French services are needed, where they are required they will be made available because the government in 1980, the Conservative Government at that particular time, already said this.

They already established this, that if there was going to be a need anywhere for French services that these services were going to be provided. So what is the argument about? What are we arguing about?

It's just because somebody made a silly agreement somewhere along the line with a small group of French­ speaking Canadians, the SF M and the Federal Government saying, that maybe it would be a good idea to further French services within this province beyond that which is required; and we're not only are we going to entrench this, but we will also put this forward in a bill which is going to be designating certain spots within the public sector of the province, are going to be bilingual whether they are required or not, Mr. Speaker.

It never says that wherever they're going to be required we're going to do this, it just says, that certain spots, head offices and so on will automatically be bilingual. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we already have had a number of bills translated within this province and the fact that nobody is asking for these translations just proves the point that we make, that these services really are not required. The sub-amendment that we have proposed will be acceptable to the vast majority of Manitobans.

Why not adopt that particular sub-amendment so that we can get on with other business and start working on the real issues of this province, job creation, the economy, roads need to be built so that farmers can get their produce to market and things of that nature. There's still drainage and flood control that has to be worked on, yet we are sitting in this Legislature month after month after month debating an issue which nobody really wants in this province, except for a very very few. So, Mr.

Speaker, the question is, why doesn't this government forget about Bill 11 5, forget about this amendment, accept the hoist and let's get that next Session started. Manitobans are looking forward to the Speech from the Throne and the next Session. They would like to know whether this government is actually going to do something for them that is going to be useful, something that is going to be a benefit to them and they're looking forward to the Speech from the Throne because, Mr. Speaker, there are many many things that still need to be done in Manitoba in order to get the economy 5658

Monday, 23 January, 1984 going and to alleviate some of the hardships that some of the people are facing with in this pr ovince. If government members think that the issue of bilingualism in Manitoba is going to disappear, th ey'll be disappointed. As I mentioned earlier, the support and on the stand that we are taking on this particular issue, is growing dai ly. There are more people, th ere are more organizations growing, there are more organizations growing that are actually now asking for the Lieutenant­ Governor of this province in order to dissolve this government and to call an election. Mr.

Speaker, that is exactly where we are going to be heading, that if we are going to continue to debate this issue, the people of this province are going to get so fed up with it that the pressure is going to be very strong on the Lieutenant-Governor to dissolve this particular Legislature and to get a government in here that is going to be willing to work with the particular issues which the Manitobans are concerned about. Even the French community doesn 't want any more discussion on this issue. Mr.

Speaker, the French-speaking community at the present time are embarrassed to even discuss the issue and are beg inning to blame this government and the SFM for creating this issue when it is turning friend against friend, neighbour against neighbour, and is perceived by the French-speaking community that all Manitobans who are not French speaking are turning against th em. They are beginning to blame the government for keeping this issue in front of the people and providing this divisive nature within the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speak er, this sentiment among the French­ speaking community is spreading very rapidly and I am certain that the French-speak ing community themselves are going to start demanding that this government leave this issue and start talking about some of the issues that are more important to them. Mr. Speaker, I had the occasion to visit one of my French-speaking communities yesterday; it was the occasion of the winter games.

They had the broomball finals over there for the central region, which I am very proud to say that the small community of Letellier happened to win, and they played an excellent game; but after the game was finished I had an opportunity to speak to many of the citizens living within that particular area. They assured me, Mr. Speaker, that they are fed up with this issue being in front of this Legislature all the time, day after day after day. They said, "What can be done in order for this issue to disappear?" Now, Mr.

Speaker, I said, "Weli, there is one thing that we can do, we can stop talking on it and allow this issue to go away and allow the government to proceed with their amendment, but that would be against the issues of the vast majority of people within the province." They said, "We don't want this." They said, "We have always been getting along with our neighbours who are not Franco-Manitobans." They said, "Ne ver ever have we experienced this kind of difficulty before," and they are beginning to blame the SFM and the people on that side for creating this divisive issue for the people.

The members on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker, ought to know this and ought to realize what they are doing, as they are certainly not doing a service to anyone in Manitoba at all. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, they will be digging their own grave, and maybe we can take small comfort in the fact that it is going to be very very difficult for them to get themselves re-elected the next time around, but that is their problem. We have been warning them about this, we've been warning them time and time again, Mr .

Speaker, tha t they're creati ng the kind of atmosphere for themselves which is going to turn not only the French society, the Franco-Manitobans and ourselves, but it is also going to turn their supporters - especially some of their top supporters - they're going to be turning against them, and they already have turned against them because some of them already have come and told us so, that they have turned against them.

They just feel that this government is proceeding with an issue that nobody wants to talk about in this province and that there really was no problem because all those problems had been looked after. Some of the things that people are upset about, and I suppose the problem really stems from the fact that the Federal Government experience and their bilingual issue and the problems that they have created are being looked at as being the same typa of thing that is going to be happening in Manitoba if we should create a bilingual province in Manitoba and, Mr. Speaker, they are correct.

We are going to be faced with exactly the same kind of problems over here. Whenever you're going to be going to the telephone, and you'll be phoning Air Canada, you'll be answered in French. Whenever you'll be phoning any of the Crown corporations, Crown agencies or whatever, the first thing that they're going to be doing is they're going to be answering the telephone in French. This just happened in Winkler the other day when a lady came up to me and says, Mr. Brown, I cannot get through to Air Canada. I said, well, that seems very strange. She says all I'm getting is some kind of mumbo jumbo whenever I pho ne.

I said let me try for you. So I went and I tried to call the number and wha t happened? At Air Canada in Winnipeg over here, they were answering in French first and this lady, of course, hung up because she had no idea what they were saying. She was not familiar with the fact that they could possibly be answering in French first so I explained to her that it was a recorded announcement, that she would have to wait awhile until tha t recorded announcement was through, and then the English version would be coming forward. So she did this, of course, and she was able to get what she wanted out of Air Canada.

But this just demonstrates, Mr. Speaker, what has been transpiring as far as the Federal Government is concerned where, whenever you try to con tact something, somebody, or someone, that you are always asked in French first. People, especially in the prairie provinces, take great exception to this. I would like to tell honourable members of an experience that I had during the Ch ristmas holidays. I took my family down to Acapulco during the Christmas holidays and I must say that we did have a very enjoyable time over there. The weather was great and we did have an excellent time.

But an incident happened on the way back, Mr. Speaker, that I think members of this Legislature should be aware of and why so many 5659

Monday, 23 January, 1984 Manitobans are so afraid of entrenching the French language issue. On the way back when dinner was going to be served, and there was a couple sitting behind my children - my children were just back of me and the couple sitting behind them were French-Canadians - incidentally the flight originated in Montreal and we had to pick up the flight in Toronto. I would say that about 70 percent of the people on that particular aircraft were French­ speaking Canadians from Quebec and the rest of them mainly were from Toronto and certainly from Ontario.

We seemed to be the only people on that particular flight from Manitoba.

But when dinner was going to be served the chap and his wife that were sitting behind my children refused to accept his dinner because the steward was presenting it to him in English and he said, "I absolutely refuse to accept this dinner unless you present it to me in French." The steward said, "I'll get one of the stewardesses, who is going to be serving you in French." The man said, "That's not good enough." He said, "That's not what I asked for." He said, "I want YOU to serve me this dinner in French," and - (Interjection) - I'm sorry, but the member who has sentiments exactly similar to the fellow that I'm talking about was excellent in English.

He spoke very good English. There was no problem there. He und erstood English perfectly; he spoke very good English but he refused to accept his dinner because the steward could not serve it to him in French. I heard this entire conversation and the steward said, "Look, I am the only one on this particular aircraft who is not bilingual. The captain is perfectly bilingual, the co-pilot is bilingual. All the other staff are bilingual. I'm the only one on this plane who is not bilingual. I will get somebody who is going to serve you your dinner in French." But this fellow insisted.

He said, "No, I will not accept my dinner from anybody else but you," and he said, "You are going to serve it to me in French." The steward said, "If you don't mind, I'll go and serve all these other people and I'll get back to you after the other people are served." The fellow said, "That's perfectly okay." He said, "You go and serve everybody else on the plane, then you come back and we'll discuss this issue further." After everybody had been served their dinner on the plane, the steward did come back and he said, "Now, listen, can we be reasonable about this whole thing?

Can I get somebody to give you your dinner?" He had the dinner with him. "If you won't accept it from me, can I get one of the stewardesses over here so that you will accept your dinner?" The fellow still said no. This got to be a big issue. This got to be a real big issue. This kept on for an hour on the plane. It got to be a real big issue until finally this French-Canadian got up - and he was a large fellow - he started pointing his finger at the steward and said, "I want you to serve me that dinner right now, and in French." At that particular point, Mr.

Speaker, one of the other chaps who was sitting not far away who had heard the entire conversation - who was about half the size of this particular French-Canadian who had created the problem, said "Sit down." He said, "Sit down and shut up." MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: I thought that at that particular time - well obviously, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite are not listening - obviously they don't give a damn about the problems that they are going to be creating for fellow Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. They are not interested in listening to the things, to the horror stories that can happen out there.

They are persistent that they are going to go ahead and implement exactly that type of thing that the Federal Government has created. That is the most irresponsible bunch of people that I have ever seen in my life and that this province has ever seen. It's a sorry state in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, when we have to have a group of people like that who have absolutely no inclination wh atsoever of listening to the people within this province. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Wolseley on a point of order. MS. M. PHILLIPS: No, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question.

MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, if that particular member is so anxious to get on the floor, let her speak after I have spoken. MR. W. McKENZIE: Hear, hear. We haven't heard her yet, not a word. There is a lot of them over there we haven't heard. Maybe you'll get her on her feet Amie, keep fired up. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. W. McKENZIE: Maybe you'll get her on her feet. MR. A. BROWN: Anyhow, Mr. Speaker, it was very close to a fight breaking out on that plane because of this one particular person who was creating this issue.

Finally they got the fellow to sit down and he was told, he said, "If you don't like the country then get out, but please don't spoil it for everybody else in Canada." That is exactly the type of thing, Mr. Speaker, that is going to be created in Manitoba if we're going to create a bilingual province. If we are going to create a bilingual province in Manitoba those are the kind of incidents that are going to be coming forward time after time after time. I'm not saying that all Franco-Manitobans are of that nature, they are not. I would say , Mr.

Speaker, that the percentage would be very very small because most of the Franco-Manitobans, at least that I am acquainted with, are very responsible people. There is no way, Mr. Speaker, that they would ever create that kind· of an incident. But unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we also have people of the other kind . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: . . . the people that are always looking for an opportunity to create problems. We have that type of person sitting right in this Legislature who has constantly been nattering away during the hearings at 5660

Monday, 23 January, 1984 anybody who made a presentatio n against this particular amendment, who has been continuously nattering away and who has made some pretty irresponsible statements. Mr. Speaker, that worries us. That worries us when we have people that are out for only one thing and that is to create as many problems in this particular province on the bilingual issue as they possibly can. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, this government has an option open to them if they would only dare use it. That option of course, Mr. Speaker, is the option of closure.

The government can stop debate on this particular issue at any time that they so wish but, Mr. Speaker, they have no more guts to invoke closure than they have the intestinal fortitude to speak on this particular issue. They like to speak from their seats but they do not like to stand up and be put on record of what they have to say. This goes for Bill No. 11 5 also, where they say in the bill, Mr. Speaker, that most of the portions of that bill will not be enforced until '87. So what's the rush? What's the rush?

Why do we have to proceed with Bill 115 at this particular time if it's not going to come into force until 1987?

So, why don't they accept the hoist the way that we made it; we'll come back six months from now; we'll discuss the issue after possibly tempers have cooled off, the issue has slowed down in Manitoba, and we 'll discuss the amendment and the sub­ amendment at that particular time so that we can possibly discuss this entire issue under a more relaxed atmosphere, when people will have had a little bit more time to think about the entire issue then we can go about discussing this and do the right thing fo r Manitobans. - (Interjection) - It was a person who was very similar in nature to that particular person, except he was a little taller.

What the government has succeeded in doing so far is just that they have succeeded in alienating the majority of the electorate. What is worse, they are causing problems in the Francophone community between Francophone and Francophone; and ultimately the French-speaking people are going to be turning against them, which we already have quite a bit of evidence on that particular issue. So, Mr. Speaker, why do we have to proceed with this issue at this particular time when nobody wants it? We have provided a perfect way out for them, with providing them with a sub-amendment that they could accept.

We have provided for them a way out on Bill 11 5 with the hoist which we proposed. What is more important though, Mr. Speaker, is that the majority of Manitobans have adv ised this government to drop this issue at this particular time; drop it, scrap the whole issue; it is not needed; it is not warranted; services will be provided wherever they are necessary; this already came into effect in 19 80; so why do we have to belabour this particular point? Mr.

Speaker, during the hearings that honourable members opposite were dragged into, screaming and kicking as they did, everything within their power that they could do to prevent these hearings from being 5661 held, but during these hearings it became very evident that the people within this province really don't want this partic ular issue, and I wou ld say that the organization that was speaking for the vast majority of the people within this province was the Union of Municipalities of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, even after the amendment that was made was brought before the Union of Manitoba Municipalities, the union still has grave concerns about that particular amendment. I would just like to read into the record, Mr. Speaker, the resolution that was carried at the Union of Manitoba Municipalities' meeting that they held recently. The resolution reads this: "BE IT RESOL VE D that the Union of Manitoba Municipalities is not op posed to bilingualism, but it is op posed to Manitoba being declared a bilingual province.

We fear that the implications of such a decision wou ld adv ersely affect all residents of Manitoba. The cost factor of such a program of translation and duplication of services is prohibitive in relation to the number of people it would serve. The speaking of a mother tongue by residents of the Province of Manitoba has never been opposed in the past 10 0 years.

It is our desire that the language rights remain as they are, and that the Provincial Government should hold a provincial referendum and allow all the people of the province to declare and voice their opinion on the matter of becoming a bilingual province." That was carried. MR. W. McKENZIE: Did Howard answer that one? MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, that was a resolution that was carried by the Union of Manitoba Municipalities who, by and large, speak for the vast majority of Manitobans, especially in rural Manitoba.

They are very much concerned about the things which I stated earlier, that the concern was that we would have zealots if we have a bilingual province, that that would be furthering the cause beyond all reasonableness; and once we are declared a bilingual province, Mr. Speaker, we are going to have court case alter court case and the courts will have to decide, and the issue certainly can become very cumbersome and unrealistic for this province which only has a 6 percent population of Franco-Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, I do not believe the actions that this government is intent on taking warrants the kind of actions that they are taking because of 6 percent of this population. We all realize, Mr.

Speaker, that in 18 70, when the original agreement was arrived upon, that half or possibly even a little better than half of the people within this province were French speaking, and they arrived at an agreement where they said that either t:1e French language or the English language could be used in the Legislature, but that the documents should be translated into both languages and that the courts should be available in both languages. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this already has been done by the former government, and why should we make any attempt whatsoever to proceed beyond that agreement, because to proceed beyond is going to create so many problems that it is going to be unpalatable to most of the people within this province, and it is also going to be unpalatable to the very community which this government is trying to accommodate.

Monday, 23 January, 1984 HON. V. SCHROEDER: Run out of notes, eh? MR. A. BROWN: The Minister of Finance thinks that I have run out of notes. Actually I have 20 pages of underlined material over here which I would just love to get into because, Mr. Speaker, that particular material takes us back again to the history of where this all originated, which was in 18 70 when the first agreement was arrived at. Mr.

Speaker, we have realized no problems for 10 0 years, for 11 3 years in this provi nce, until this government came forward and revitalized an issue which they knew was going to be contentious and which they thought was going to gain them a large amount of support. Mr. Speaker, how wrong could they be? But then, of course, they have proved this time and time again, Mr. Speaker, that they are rather inept at reading what the people of this province are going to accept and what they will not accept.

We have seen this in a lot of the legislation that has been coming forward, in a lot of the stands that they have been taking on various issues. For instance, when they start fooling around with pension plans, with the 1.5 percent payroll tax, these are things, Mr. Speaker, that are just not acceptable to the people of this province and this is but one more of those issues that are absolutely and totally unacceptable.

The people of this province, of course, are going to let them know, and this government thinks that they are going to railroad this thing through, ramrod this thing through; and that in two years, two-and-a-half years or whatever, when we are going to have the next provincial election, that this matter will be forgotten. Not so, Mr. Speaker. This issue is not going to go away unless they are going to drop the entire issue. This issue is not going to go away. So accept the proposal that we have given you; accept that proposal.

We have given you a perfect out and there is absolutely no reason why this proposal should not be accepted, except for some stubbornness on account of a few memebers on that particular side who are unwilling to give in. At the outset, Mr. Speaker, even at the outset, when this province was first founded, very little French was used in this Legislature. Most of the French-speaking Canadians that were members of the Legislatur e at that time spoke in English, because they tried to accommodate the other people on the other side who· did not speak French, and everybody seemed to be getting along quite harmoniously.

Of course, the translation system as how we know it today was not available, and it was very cumbersome for them to keep records and write all the documents out in both languages because this had to be done by hand at that time. It is much easier now, Mr. Speaker, tor us to put forth documents which are of both languages, we have no objection to that. We already said that in 1980, that these records should be kept in both languages. It is ever so much simpler now than what it was at that particular time, yet it was done at that particular time for a period of time. But it is interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, that the ML As at that time spoke English as much as they possibly could and it is recorded, that even in 18 70 English was the main language of this particular Legislature. Of course, we know that what happened after that, after the 18 70s and the 18 80s when all the other people from all over the world came to Canada and settled over here, that the French language was used less and less all the time, that by 18 90 it was deemed that it no longer was necessary to use the French language, and, of course, that is why we had the 18 90 bill which claimed Manitoba to be unilingual. But that's history, Mr.

Speaker. The Supreme Court overruled that particular agreement and we were quite happy when we were government to go back to the 18 70 agreement . We were quite happy to accommodate the French-speaking Canadians; we were quite willing to translate all the documents. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say, the last word, gentlemen, on your side, forget what you're doing, accept our sub-amendment, accept the hoist, let's come back to this particular . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. BROWN: . . . issue when tempers cool down. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Concordia that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. H. ENNS: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Adam, Anstett, Ashton, Corrin, Cowan, Dodick, Dolin, Evans, Eyler, Fox, Harapiak, Harper, Hemphill, Lecuyer, Mackling, Penner, Phillips, Plohman, Santos, Schroeder, Smith, Storie, Uruski.

NAYS Banman, Blake, Brown, Downey, Driedger, Enns, Filmon, Gr aham, Hyde, Johnsto n, Kovnats, Lyon, McKenzie, Nordman, Oleson, Orchard, Ransom, Sherman. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ASS ISTANT CLERK, G. Mackintosh: Yeas, 23; Nays, 18. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The motion is accordingly carried. I would remind all members tha t divisio ns in this Hous e are to be conducted in silence. The Honourable Government House Leader. 5662

Monday, 23 January, 1984 HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the calling of the Orders of the Day that we announced last week, it's our intention to alternate between the resolution and the bill. So' therefore, Mr. Speaker, would you now call Bill No. 11 5, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Emerson. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING Bill 115 - RESPECTING THE OPERATION OF

SECTION 23 OF THE MANI TOBA ACT MR. SP EAKER: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Government House Leader, Bill No. 11 5 and the amendment th ereto prop osed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for Emerson. HON. S. LYON: Look who showed up, the putative leader. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also express my appreciation . . HON. S. LYON: Back to the small debts court in Beausejour, if they'll have you there. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. HON. S. LYON: You amoral twit. MR. A. DRIEDGER: ... thank you again, Mr. Speaker.

Along with my colleagues, I want to also express my appreciation to have the Premier here to listen to some of the remarks, and I want to - (I nterjection) - Well, I suppose, them's the breaks. Mr.

Speaker, in addressing the amendment to the bill that was proposed by our leader on Friday, various thoughts come to mind, and I'd just like to say that in making his remarks prior to moving the amendment, that our leader did a remarkable job in going through the whole history of what has happened on the bilingual debate up to this point and qualifying the reason why he should move a six-month hoist on the bill. that it not now be read a second time but be read this day six months hence. This has happened in the House many times before.

From time to time when there's controversial bills, the hoist has been moved in an attempt to try and squash the bill to express total displeasure with the bill with the government that is presenting the bill and I think that is sort of understood in this House. I think that bears true again in this case but I think there's also a two-pronged approach to this thing because - (Interjection) Seriously, Mr. Speaker, I believe there is that approach again partly in this bill because it is not a very good bill; it is an unpopular bill.

We've been at this thing for many many months, but there's also some good valid reasoning why the government should consider the possibility of deferring the reading of this bill for six months and that is the area where I'd like to sort of concentrate my remarks on.

Prior to that though I would like to make some remarks also about the attitude in this House and it has to do a lot with the leadership of government - or non-leadership as has been stated by my colleague over here - both with the House Leader as well as the Premier of the Province; and that is where I think the weakness lies in this whole problem that we have. It doesn't develop over night. This is something that develops gradually as government brings forward their ideas and their programs, their bills and their direction, all of a sudden you can start seeing the flaws.

Now in the last Session, which has been stated - and I read the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association news that was sent out and everybody gets that - there was reference made to the last Session of Manitoba. - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, I do my fair share of heckling and I accept the fact that it happens from time to time, but normally, Mr. Speaker. I do that with the members of the back bench. The Ministers that are sitting there - and especially some of them so very qualified supposedly - they throw my train of thought a little bit.

I'm not quite as qualified as a lawyer, specifically the Minister of Natural Resources, but I'll try and mull through it. What I was trying to indicate, Mr. Speaker, that under the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association news, reference was made to the acrimonious Session that we had just finished - not finished yet - but adjourned in August and that we're into again now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm glad that we've increased our audience here today and that the Premier is with us to listen to this now. - (Interjection) - I was making reference to the fac;t that across this country there's been reference made to the bad feeling in this House. Reference has been made in all provinces in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association about the acrimonious feeling in this House and then you have to ask why. Why? Mr.

Speaker, I can see this happening where you have one or two seats difference, where it's going to be very tight in the House, but when you have a bulge of a majority by about 10 seats in this House and you have that developing, then you have to start to wonder why is it there. HON. S. LYON: It's not a very pregnant bulge. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Obviously there's lack of House leadership and there's lack of government leadership' and our leader the other day indicated in his speech - dnd I want to repeat that - and he says, Mr.

Speaker, "What has happened is that in this last week the Opposition House Leader has insisted in accelerating the acrimony and increasing the pressure and forcing things to go his way and his way only," and sadly even in the last 10 days, the atmosphere in this Legislature has become more emotionally charged, more rancorous, more embittered and it's because this misguided government has pushed on without reason and I think that is what it's all about. The Premier in the interim, from the time we had adjournment, did all kinds of shuffles, up ped his 5663

Monday, 23 January, 1984 Cabinet, shuffled some of the players in there, removed the instigator of this whole problem, which was the Attorney-General, removed the pressure from him and put it on a hot shot young Minister that is prepared to take on the world and, Mr. Speaker, I have to say I wonder how this House . . . A MEMBER: He invented the world, you know. MR. A. DRIEDGER: . . .

I've only been here for six, going on seven years, I suppose, and how this House through its history has managed to operate without the Member for Springfield, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the now Government House Leader, running things; because the things that he has been raising here you'd wonder how they ever kept order in this place, with all due respect to you, Mr. Speaker, because there's no reflection on you; but you have a House Leader that feels he has total command of this whole House, it has to be all his own way . . . A MEMBER: It goes right back to the Magna Carta, you know. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: . . . and that is where much of the problem has arisen from. Mr. Speaker, yes, I will get back to the bill, to the hoist itself. Our leader, very capably the other day, indicated the flaws in this bill. One of the reasons why our leader moved the six-month hoist was because of the weaknesses in the bill and the government obviously had overlooked these; and I think members, when our leader was speaking, didn't bother paying attention. They were yelling, "Is this what it took you four days to prepare?" Their approach is negative.

After that the Minister of Natural Resources gets up and he says, "We should not treat this as a political issue. We should talk of the rights of the people." A real emotional plea about the shortcomings that we are creating and it's surprising. There's very little defence that we have there in terms of making our speeches and we've had the opportunity to make many of them as have had the members opposite, though the re's a very marked reluctance to speak on these things, there's a marked reluctance to speak on anything to do with the bilingual issue. - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, I've gone through all these things and everybody's got files thicker than any issue, I think, in the history of Manitoba. I think there's been more stuff that has been compiled and written by media in this Legislature, in committee hearings and we can go on and on forever. I go back through my files and I look at things like our constitutional commitment to Manitobans and the other programs, the promotional work, facts about French language services, all these things.

This was during the course of the summer when these things were presented to us and we debated it prior to the adjournment and finally a consensus was reached that we should adjourn the House and go out and have hearings. I think that again showed the weakness of the government because the opposition insisted there be heari ngs and we fo rced , we lite rally fo rced the government to go out and have the hearings. They didn't want that. If they really believed, Mr. Speaker, that they were on the right course, we would not be sitting here now.

The government Ministers such as they are, 20 of them strong, spending money like crazy, they would be working with their Estimates and getting ready to bring us back into the House for the next Session, but we're still in last year's Session because of the incompetence, the weakness of leadership. Mr . Sp eaker , when I meet members of the government, any of them, at functions as they come into my constituency, other constituencies, even the now House Leader when I opened up the Ste. Agathe arena, the artificial ice plant, I can get along well with them. I have no difficulty associating with them.

We don't insult each other in the public arena when we get out to public places. But in this House, Mr. Speaker, this is where it all takes place, in terms of politics. The weakness is so apparent as I indicated before. It doesn't develop overnight. A MEMBER: You can work at it for a long time. A MEMBER: You bet. MR. A. DRIEDGER: You can see what happened in the last Session and why we' re still here. Here's a government that has the numbers, that has the power and they can not fulfil! their wishes. It all reflects basically, Mr.

Speaker, in my mind and I think in the minds of Manitobans at this point, it is because they haven't got a leader. We've been sitting here for a long time, Mr Speaker, and the leader has yet to get up and speak on this issue. In fact, very few of them have gotten up and spoken to it, but when they called us back into the Session to deal specifically with this question, Mr. Speaker, what did they do?

Ministers were popping up like jack-in­ the-boxes making announcements on all kinds of issues that were not related to the thing that they called us back in for - the diversion aspect - now let's get the heat off the bilingual thing and tell the public of Manitoba what we have done. Well, I'll tell you something, let's get back to the economics, let's get back to the governnent business. Very simple, Mr. Speaker, the Minister, the Premier flies all the way to Thompson to speak to the people of Manitoba stating - let's get this French issue shoved aside and let's get down to the economics of the system. Okay.

We say, hey, our leader today said to the Premier, let's do it. Let's do it. Support this amendment and let's get down to the business. A MEMBER: No way. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Now if the government does not want to do it, all it illustrates to us is that you're trying to play politics. If that is what you want, then we'll play politics. The Minister of Natural Resources said the other day, we've got to talk about the rights of the people of Manitoba, we cannot talk of politics all the time. A MEMBER: How about the rights of the Americans to have a Consulate here? 5664

Monday, 23 January, 1984 . A MEMBER: Right. MR. A. DRIEDGER: It is unfortunate, and I suppose we all grandstand to some degree in this House. - (Interjection) - Yes, yes. Some can't even grandstand - like your leader - because he's scared he's going to get into a box. If he at least had the intestinal fortitude to get up and state his position instead of trying to get a few individuals on that side that are going to be sort of the front runners in this issue. It all relates down to, Mr. Speaker, the six-month hoist, and we're not trying to necessarily kill the bill.

What we're trying to do is help the government out of a bad spot because this government is not happy with what they've created. I'd like to just read an NDP letter and it's signed by Charles Bigelow, President, where he makes reference and I think it's been referred to before - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, I don't care, I will read these things into the reco rd because the Minister of Natural Resources the other day read half the speeches that have been made in this House because he didn't have anything else to say so I will do this too.

But here, the NDP president writes, and it's addressed, "Dear Fellow Manitobans," it's addressed to all Manitobans. He says, "Look at French language services. For over 100 years no one has even tried to deal with this problem. Howard Pawley and the NDP are working for Made-in-Manitoba solutions that don't threaten anyone's job or make anyone feel like an outsider in Manitoba." It says, "Whether you like the NDP answer or not, isn't it time we actually put this problem behind us?" Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is what they would like to do. You would like to put this problem behind you and you know what?

Our leader gave you the opportunity. Vote for the hoist and you've got it out of your way and we can get down to the economics that your Premier has indicated should happen unless it was just straight hot air and rabbit tracks again that he was speaking. We've come to believe that from this Premier. We've come to believe that from this Premier because he hasn't shown leadership, and I've said this before. As a person, I think the Premier is not a bad individual, but as a leader of a government party - I'll tell you something - there is so many cracks in that armour that is why we have the problems now.

What we're trying to do is help you. A MEMBER: Thank you, you're all heart. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well obviously - you've indicated - your Premier indicated in Thompson, let's get this out of the way and let's get down to the real problems. Then let's support this six-month hoist and get it out of the way and get down to the real problems. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I was a little disappointed today again and to illustrate the acrimony in this House, the exchange that took place here today in the morning during question period, the Pr emier is feeling uncomfortable.

The Premier is not getting up and stating his views because he knows the heat of the public in Manitoba is on him as well as his colleagues. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite are getting the same message that we are getting. They're getting the heat and we're getting the message. They are getting the heat. It all amounts to perception, the perception of the people of Manitoba. I think to some degree, tongue-in-cheek we all feel a little embarrassed by what is happening here. I think the Premier must feel embarr assed by what is happening in this House.

Every day the media takes and cuts strips off everybody, why don't we end it? Mr. Premier, why don't you end it? Mr. House Leader, why don't you end it? Accept our amendment or act like a government that believes in what it's doing, but you haven't got the guts. You haven't got the guts. You 're being roasted by the public and you say to us, don't play politics with the matter. You are playing politics with it and we are reaping the benefits from it. We are reaping the benefits of what's happening right now, but I'll tell you something, I don't like it.

I don't like it because there's other ways that I would like to attack the government of the day. I would like to attack the gov ernment on the basis of their poor eco nomic progra ms, of their stupid legislation that hi nders investment in this province. I don't like to attack them on this issue because of their stupidity. There are many other things that I find are a lot easier to get after them because, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my constituency is the second highest - and I mentioned this before - seco nd hig hest French-spe aking constituency in the provi nce. - (I nterjection) - Second, I challenge any time, the House Speaker from his seat, when he says third - second highest. A MEMBER: Take your time, Albert; don't rush. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I've got lots of time. What bothers me is that when we get out there and if the members of government did not go and hide in their offices all the time and got out th ere and talked to their constituents, talk to your constituency; be fair.

If you want to be honest - and the Minister of Labour, my friend and colleague there, the Mem ber for Radisson chuckles a little bit - but I'll tell you something, if we all went out and took an assessment of what our people want, a fair assessment, you know what? we'd all come back in here and we'd change our position. Each one of us would change our position. You would drop it, but government doesn't have to do that, they hide. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Ministers are hiding in their office A MEMBER: They don't have the plebiscite. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: . . . and the backlash is going to be there. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Premier of Manitoba talks to me about backbone and he's got the weakest backbone of this whole group here and that is why we're here today, because he cannot show leadership. He cannot control his own group or else why would a government come up with stupid legislation that you know is unpopular, where a majority of the people are opposed to it - and I'm talking about seat belt and helmet legislation and the bilingual issue. Why would any government want to come forward with that?

That's stupidity, but because of a few radical left-wingers in 5665

Monday, 23 January, 1984 his group and he hasn't got the power, as a leader, to control them and he comes up with this kind of thing and that is what's created the problem. Aside from the Attorney-General who I think ... This is where the problem comes in, who actually is the leader, but we have to look at the individual who has been elected as the leader and has failed to show leadership, and that is where our whole problem stems from. The rest of them, you can bang your tables all you want when somebody makes an announcement. You've been trying to deter from the issue.

If you really honestly went out and talked to your people you would realize you're on the wrong track. That's why you want to soft-talk around this thing; that's why you want to say, "listen, we're doing it for the minority groups." You are elected because the majority of Manitobans thought that the NOP would do a better job; they tho ught, Mr . Deputy Sp eaker , and wha t a disillusionment. And this is not an idle, stupid statement - you know that if you would call an election today, I doubt whether there would be six members left on that side of the House. A MEMBER: They couldn't find 57 to run. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Why would any government want to do that? You got elected on the basis that you could do a better job. Why would you pick on issues like seat belt and helmet legislation, the bilingual issue? These are the two most controversial issues that you could attack. What's in it for you? Why didn't you run on that basis when you had the last campaign? You ran on economic basis and you won. You flubbed that and you're flubbing this. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: You have totally flubbed it and it is because of lack of leadership and misconception for the people of Manitoba. You deceived the people of Manitoba and they are just waiting for the chance to give you your answer. You can sit there, the educated teachers and the lawyers and you can sweet talk all you like. From the layman's approach, from the layman's message that I get from my people and from many people in Manitoba, and you know it is there, you are not calling the shots right and you are finished politically if you call an election now.

You are, because we want to be back in government and show the leadership that is required that hasn't been there for a couple of years. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. A. DRIEDGER: I'm just warming up. My House Leader says just opening statements. You know what has happened, Mr. Deputy Speaker? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Unfortunately, Mr. Deputy Speaker. what has happened in Manitoba with the bilingual issue, people don't know who to believe anymore.

Even the sweet-talking Minister of Community Services, the Minister of Natural Res ou rces who changed his approach totally from firing in there, started to sort of use the plea, common sense approach. Now it is too late because people don't know anymore. I could go back in here and read all kinds of controversial statements that have been made. Mr. Premier, by changing House Leaders you've worsened the situation. You haven't taken the heat off the Attorney-General necessarily, you've put a hotshot in there that thinks he's going to run this whole province by himself in spite of you.

Our House Leader in a very impromptu speech that he made, if you would read our House Leader's speech just before the supper hour and read some of the comments - I had a mind to read the same comments into the record - where the House Leader, at the last sub-amendment that was opposed, that obviously was not a proper amendment, where the Government House Leader jumped up and made a big hurrah about the big reversal. Here it is: "Tories ready to compromise on language bill." I don't know what the thinking was of the individual. Mr.

Premier, I don't know what you were expecting of your House Leader or what your group is, but talking with some of your colleagues, Mr. Premier, they wondered when he was out to lunch, where he made his big mistake. Today, from the seat of his pants, he's making a reversal. He says, oh no, I never said this, I never said that. - (Interjection) - Mr. Deputy Speaker, the House Leader is yelling from his chair so I will read that one portion that I thought most amazing.

"Anstett said that the proposed change to the NOP resolution to amend the Constitution is not only a major Tory reversal but a surpising one." Then today he says: No, not so, not so, I made a mistake. There's nothing wrong with somebody making a mistake, you know, but if the hotshot House Leader is going to run out in the halls and sit in front of the TV cameras saying, now we got 'em, we've got 'em coming, what have you; and then a day later has to take and change his position again . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the long and short of it is that the reason that we are here and the problem that we have is a government without a leader; with a House Leader who thinks he is the leader; with an Attorney-General who thinks he is the leader; with a F inance Minister who thinks he's got the reins; you know, everybody is a leader on that side, everybody is, and it is surprising . . . A MEMBER: Take me to your leader. MR. A. DRIEDGER: There is an old expression that we use sometimes, too many chiefs and no Indians. A MEMBER: That is a racial statement. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Okay, you know I don't mean it that way.

But everybody is a boss and nobody is a worker, nobody is a listener anymore, and this is the government that listens, that proposed that they were listening to the people of Manitoba. Please hear it, 5666

Monday, 23 January, 1984 come on. You are listening to Manitoba? You are listening to Manitoba with seat belt and he lmet legislation? You are lis tening to Manitob a on the bilingual issue? If you feel you are on the right track and you are listening, then call an election. Then call an election because you are way off base and you know it. So that is why I suggest to you, for the people of Manitoba, for yourself, accept this amendment. Let's put a six-month ... Accept this amendment for six months. People don't understand; they are confused. This bill that we are suggesting you wait with . . . MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: ... this bill doesn't come into effect until 1987. What's the panic? What we need - and I think our leader very capably put it, Mr. Speaker - we need that healing influence here and now, not to push through, under great duress, a bill which doesn't take effect until January 1, 1987, at a time when acrimony, divisiveness and bitterness is all around us; at a time when the whole atmosph ere has been poisoned by the members opposite, the government, on their whole approach to this.

We need that healing influence before further venturing into uncharted waters on a bill such as the one we have before us, Mr. Speaker. A MEMBER: We need time. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Now I suspect, Mr. Speaker - (Interjection) - MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that possibly this government, in their frustration of how to deal with this issue, could possibly force closure which would not be a good political move. If they wanted to put closure on they should have done it in August or July.

Now, when the heat is on, they are going to talk possibly of closure - a fallacy, stupidity. It amazes me, you know, tha t you have lost your total direc tion. You are floundering economically; you have blown it with most of your bills. Mr. Speaker, I have found out that only 5 percent of the bills that we passed in the last Session have been proclaimed so far. We fought half the summer on major bills and only 5 percent are proclaimed. What is the problem? It is a government without leadership. (Interjection) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, but I have to echo the remarks of my House Leader where he says, "Where has the Premier been on this issue? Why has he not spoken out on this issue?" Why is the frustration there with the people of Manitoba? I happened to, Mr. Speaker, on this weekend, last Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, we had our annual P.C. Curling Bonspiel in Otterburne, in the heart of the Francophone-speaking community.

I was very fortunate to have some of my colleagues there as well as our leader and his wife in the bonspiel itself, and we had the opportunity to talk. with many of our 5667 colleagues, our French-spe aking colleagues and supporters, and I was concerned for a long time that possibly this issue could be a problem for me ad I now find out that it is not; that our Francophone friends, our French-speaking friends say they would like to have this issue done with, but instead of blaming us they are blaming the government for their failure in terms of how they handle it. - (Interjection) - Well, my friend and colleague from Radisson says, "I know it is a lie." That is not so, because if he wants I will take him out in the rural community and they will say, "Be gone with this issue; government, you have handled it wrong." They are unhappy.

They are unhappy with it; they are uncomfortable with it because it is creating the acrimony that we have in this House. The acrimony that has been created in this House is being created out there; and who do they put the blame on? The government, on this leaderless government; a Premier that hasn't got the guts to stand up in this Ho use and state his position becaus e the heat, politically, is on him.

I hate to say that because one should always have a certain amount of respect for a Premier and I would like to have respect for this Premier, and the people of Manitoba, I think, want to, because there should be respect for a go vernment, but government has got to earn that respect. This government we have now has not earned respect from the people of Manitoba. The people of Manitoba are unhappy with this government. - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, many of us speak our opinions here. The defence has been weak in terms of your support for this program or many of your programs.

A MEMBER: There have been so few have spoken on it, now we don't know what their position is. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, if this whole arena is not just politics, then we should all finally look to ourselves, government as well as opposition, in terms of the expectations of the people of Manitoba because we are getting - Mr. Speaker, the public is starting to perceive us as a house of clowns; I have to say "us" because we are all part and parcel of it and it is an embarrassment for me - and I plead with government, state your position, do what you have to do, but don't fudge around the issue.

A MEMBER: We told you what our position is. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Show some leadership. A MEMBER: We told you our position on it. MR. A. DRIEDGER: It isn't th ere. We are being perceived - (Interjection) - In this House we are being perceived . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: My position is the government's position. We don't have 22 different positions like you have over there. We don't have your position and the rest of your caucus. MR. A. DRIEDGER: If the Premier has comments to make, I would challenge him to make them, put them on record, because we haven't heard from him yet.

Monday, 23 January, 1984 Mr. Speaker, I enjoy my position as an ML A; I think we all do to some degree. We'd like to be looked at as leaders of the community, of the province. With the way this government has conducted the affairs of this province, it's getting to be a bit of a sham. It is an embarrassment. I think we're all prepared to, from time to time, debate the issues that are important. I think we're all prepared to debate concerns of the economic issues. I think we're all concerned about jobs for our areas. We want everybody to do well, I think everyone of us would feel that way.

Now, it's a matter of how to approach it. Why have we been hung up for all these months, the public hearings? Who is government? If you want us to run government, that's very simple to do. Call the election and we will take over, we will resolve some of these issues, we will run on track. When under false pretenses you got elected in November of'81, and I know it's early to call an election now. A MEMBER: Never too early. MR. A. DRIEDGER: People in Manitoba, when I talk to some in my constituency - how long?

I tell them it could be another two years because they'll hang on till the last dying breath because you're finished anyway you know. If we want to right the situation right now, the government will have to quit playing the games that they are. - (Interjection) - Thank you, Mr. House Leader, I've learned this lesson from the member that used to stand over there, the Honourable Minister of Treasury or whatever the case may be. Mr. Sp eak er, - (Interject ion) - serious ly, Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate really in the final statements that we are actually not doing a justice to all Manitobans with what we are doing here. That is where leadership comes in. It has nothing to do with the House Leader; it has nothing to do with the Attorney-General; it has to do with the individual who is supposed boss of the government, the Premier of Manitoba, and it isn't fair. The now Premier of Manitoba - (Interjection) - used to be Minister of Municipal Affairs when I was Reeve, and I respected him at that time.

I didn't agree with his politics at the time, I respected him, I thought he was a nice guy. - (Interjection) - It's not that terribly long ago. He is now the Premier of Manitoba. I feel disillusioned that he has not got the strength to lead his party and this province the way the people of Manitoba want it. It hurts me to say that to somebody who I like, but it hurts me to say that. I implore the Premier, be a leader, lead your party, get your people together because you haven't got them togethe r. You have 30-some-odd people that are all being bossed.

If the Premier feels that he has it together and that he's got the confidence of the people of Manitoba at this stage of the game, I again ask, let's go to the polls and clear the air once and for all, because you will resolve all the issues that you have in front of you right there. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, before the next speaker in the debate I do not plan to speak in the debate, Sir - I wish to give notice that at a subsequent sitting of the House immediately before the Orders of the Day is called for resuming debate on the motion for second reading of Bill No. 11 5,

An Act respecting the Operation of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act, and on any amendments proposed thereto, I will move that debate shall not be further adjourned. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. Order please. MR. R. BANMAN: . . . Mr.

Speaker, I guess being the first member to speak now after the government has announced its intention to put closure on the Manitoba Legislature with regard to Bill 11 5, I want to say to you that many of us on this side came to the realization a long time ago that this particular government was embarked on a collision course, not with the opposition, but they were embarked on a collision course with the people of Manitoba. What we have just heard the House Leader announce here is - (Interjec tion) - an indication that the government, Mr.

Speaker, is totally out of control and don't know how to deal with this issue anymore. Mr. Speaker, what they are doing is trying desperately to get this issue behind them, but I say to the government that this issue will not die. The moving of this particular motion now to have this bill dealt with in the next couple of days and then force the vote is one which, of course, the government has had at its disposal for - (Interjection) - a long, long time. But they felt truly, Mr.

Speaker, that they would be able to meet the challenge and convince the people and organize the different cultural groups in such a manner that they would be able to convince the majority of Manitobans that they were right. They have used public funds to do that, they have put ads in the papers, they put literature out, Mr. Speaker, all to no avail. They have today realized that they have left the people of Manitoba in a position where they have divided them. They have, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, totally misread the mood and the feelings of the people of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, to show you how fragile this situation is, the First Minister before was shouting across that his position was one which all his caucus members shared. It need only be three people across the way that see the error of their ways; three more, and we have an election on our hands. I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that the Member for Lac du Bonnet is not happy with this government and what they are doing.

I bet you at the caucus meetings, when they get together, there are a number of people across the way that say, I told you so, I told you what would happen. - (Interjection) - All we need is three people across the way as we have evidenced by two people leaving already. Three people, Mr. Speaker. and this government goes down to defeat. I know, Mr. Speaker, that there are some that are very nervous about this because some of the people across the way - even though I wouldn't want to admit - are pretty good politicians and do feel the basic grass­ roots feelings.

But I think what happened to this government is they got lulled into a situation where they really believed 5668

Monday, 23 January, 1984 that after the relatively effortless passing of Bill No. 2 in 19 80; then the announcement by the Attorney­ General of the stepping up or implementing at a faster rate some of the things dealing with French services which he announced in 19 82 and there was really no adverse reaction to that; the opposition agreed to it and the public generally didn't have too much to say sure there were a few people that grumbled about it on both sides of the equation; some said it was going too far and of course there were some that said it wasn't going far enough - but in the main, Mr.

Speaker, the majority of the people of Manitoba went along with it. They misread the people of Manitoba.

Maybe it's because they have been so embroiled in doing all these other things, about dealing with their tremendous Jobs Fund and thinking about things like seat belts and lottery changes are things that people really want and those are the things we should be concentrating on; that they really got themselves all tied up in their paperwork in their offices over here and their own self importance of being Ministers and members of the government or Legislative assistants - that they really forgot to find out what the people really want. So you're looking, Mr.

Speaker, at a government who introduced a piece of legislation - two pieces - one constitutional amendment and now this particular bill. (Inte rjection) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. R. BANMAN: They've introduced it and now suddenly after eight months they find out that 85 percent to 90 percent of the people are against it. So what do they do? What do they do?

They do the only thing they can after flubbing this issue and blundering through it for the last eight months, and going ahead and making all kinds of cosmetic changes, they now do the things which really was their only out on it, and that was to tell the members of the Legislature, that we're going to impose closure and we're going to stop debate on this issue. But I say to the members opposite, as I said a few days ago, that I and the opposition have played but a small role in telling the government that they are wrongheaded on this issue. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to take credit for being able to get all th ose phone calls from the former New Democrats who are calling us and saying. hey, we're finished with those guys. They've misread what the people want. A MEMBER: You were raised in this province. you ought to be ashamed of yourself. MR. R. BANMAN: It is the people, Mr.

Speaker, who have indicated in overwhelming numbers that they are opposed to this proposal, that they are not in favour of what the government is doing and to a very large extent, it's been the government's own constituency - the New Democrats and their party people - who have indicated that very thing. I challenge the government opposite to take a stand. If they are definitely for what they say, how do they still allow the Member for Elmwood to still carry a New Democratic card?

I say to you that the members opposite are so paranoid about this issue at this particular time that they will not even deal with the Member for Elmwood who has cau sed them all kinds of problems. My goodness, he's been more vocal on this issue than any member in the Conservative Party. So here we have a situation , as mentioned before by the Member for Lakeside, who indicated that at a meeting not too long ago, I think last week, the Member for Elmwood really is coming out of this relatively unscathed. He's got this government worried. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that the biggest difficulty that the members opposite face is that they will have to, in the final analysis, deal not with the opposition with this particular issue, they will have to deal with the people of Manitoba. This issue has now come down to the point where we even have people such as Georges Forest criticizing the SFM.

You have the individual who originally took his parking ticket and won his case in both Manitoba courts and then was taken to the Supreme Court by the government and won that one, now you have that particular individual, who brought about to a large extent Bill No. 2 which was passed by this Legislature in 19 80, criticizing the very group that this government claims they have been sitting and negotiating with. So you have a number of different areas or actors in play here that are causing even more problems for the government. Mr.

Speaker, the members on this side have been saying from Day One, from speeches made in early spring last year when this was introduced till now, have indicated to members opposite that this will probably be one of the bigge st divisive things that any government in the last number of years has done because it really has gone ahead and divided and caused animosities and hard feelings within different communities. This government has done - not only the ethnics and the Anglophones in this province - a disservice, it has also done a great disservice to the Francophone community.

As I mentioned earlier, there was a growing feeling, a feeling of acceptance in dealing with the issue as begun in 19 80 with Bill No. 2 and as carried on by this particular government. But this move to go ahead and change the Constitution of Manitoba and then introduce a bill in this Session which, as people have pointed out, won't become effective till 19 87, is one which the people of Manitoba for years will remember. I say that, Mr.

Speaker, not in a flippant way because I know, coming from an area where we have a blend of German, Ukrainian, Francophone and Anglophone, that this has not helped to bind the fabric of my constituency; it has worked just the opposite. The government in its attempt to deal with this issue should have heeded the words of my Leader when he really gave them a chance to put this bill aside to deal with this issue six months from now.

The Premier, as alluded to by The Member for Emerson, today up at Thompson decided that this thing was getting too hot for him, so he was going to take a different tack and was going to start blaming the opposition for not talking about the economy and not dealing with other issues. Well, Mr. Speaker, the issue before us is not at our choosing, it's at the government's choosing. They're the ones that brought in the resolution; they're the ones that brought in the bill. If the government had heeded 5669

Monday, 23 January, 1984 our advice way back in June and July and August of this year we wouldn't be here. If they would have realized what the true feelings of Manitobans were, we wouldn't be here; and if we were here, Mr. Speaker, if the government had intended to call an early Session, we would have been dealing with such things as the Speech from the Throne, we would have started to deal with the Estimates. But the government has decided in its own wisdom, or lack of it, that this issue is one which they will put thr ough no matter what anybody says. We were informed of that just a few minutes ago.

The House Leader said that he would be putting down his heavy hand and brought in the closure motion. So, we will deal with the issue a day or two longer and then we will vote on it, and then I would imagine we will take this bill into committee and hear public representation on it. Now, ... HON. A. ANSTETT: Glad you don't want to delay the public representation. MR. R. BANMAN: ... Mr. Speaker, it's going to be interesting to see the type of amendments that the government will be proposing themselves to this bill, because I think that bill was drafted rather hastily.

It was a compromise given to the SFM, what the new House Leader, in trying to take over from the old House Leader who suddenly realized this was too hot a potato to handle, he better get out to save his political hide, handed it over to the new House Leader who devised a new strategy, and that was to change the resolution somewhat, bring an amended resolution in but, in tandem with that, bring in a bill. I believe that's how he sold it to the SFM. We're going to water down the resolution a bit, but we're going to bring in a tougher bill and we think we can sell that package.

It's going to look a little different and we'll be able to say that we've made some real changes on the resolution, but the bill will back that up a little more and you'll get very much the same thing that you had before. That was sort of the - (Interjection) - shell game that the House Leader was playing with the public but, as indicated again by speakers on this side, the public wasn't ready to buy it, because the public does not trust this government anymore. Mr. Speaker, the gentlemen and ladies opposite are suspect. They feel, Mr.

Speaker, that they have been let down and they do not believe the gentleman opposite anymore. Guidelines established by them have come and gone, at first the inflexibility of dealing with a resolution was put forward and then we went through the whole process of the number of different changes. This House Leader, when appointed, believed that he, with the new package, with the new veneer, with a new sort of clean record in this House would come in and just guide it through. Well, what he found out very quickly is, not that only the opposition doesn't trust this government, but the majority of Manitobans don't.

I really feel sorry for the government to the extent that they can't read what public opinion is because it's going to cause them a lot more trouble in the next couple of years. The people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, are going to be the ones that really lose out in the final analysis. So, I say, Mr.

Speaker, that while the government wants to get rid of this issue, they've announced closure; they will force this issue to a vote; they will curtail debate on it, but the people of Manitoba will continue to remember and continue to hold the gentlemen and women opposite responsible for inflicting this type of controversy and this type of legislation on them.

As I mentioned when I started, the biggest difficulty in it is that it has divided, and will continue to divide, Manitobans unless the government maybe in some dramatic way in the next 24 hours decides to take my Leader's suggestion and allow this hoist, to vote for the amendment, and allow this bill to be held over for six months. I believe that is the way the government should go, because the problem of dealing with it in this kind of a manner will not serve the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The time of adjournment having arrived, when this matter is next before the House the honourable member will have 20 minutes remaining. The time being 10 o'clock, this House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomorrow afternoon. (Tuesday) 5670