Vol. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: MARCH 16, 1983 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. No. 8

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 356 NM- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HODDER: order. MR. SPEAKER: Port on a poi.ilt of order. MR. HODDER: Order, please~ Mr. Speaker, on a point of The han. member for Port au This morning we, as usual, asked for invitations for the Budget Speech and we were told that the Opposition got six. MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: invitations each - MR. NEARY: MR. BAIRD: How many have you got? MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Not even one each. Not even one each, six No, six invitations total. Now straighten it up now. Be quiet. This is certainly not normal, Mr.

Speaker, There are some 100 seats in the ·;House when you take the Speaker's Gallery as well, and I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if this is something new, whether the Opposition has the same rights in this House of Assembly as the government does. Or is it, Mr. Speaker, that the Miriister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is using those tickets to bring his own supporters into the House for the Budqet Sp~ech. - -~ MR. MARSHALL: Are you anticipating that? MR. NEARY: No, we are anticipating the arrogance and the bigotry of this administration. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ The han. Minister of Finance. 797 ·

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 356 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, there could not possibly be enough tickets around for all my supporters ..... SOME HON. MEMBERS: DR. COLLINS: my supporters in by any means.

Hear, hear: so I am not bringing all But if one looks at the numbers, there are quite a number of guests whom we have traditionally invited, our fiscal agents, the bankers, heads of unions, members of the churches and so on and so forth who take up a large number of the seats.~ Then we have to remember there are fifty-two members in the House and if every member got even one ticket that is another fifty, and there are just so many. There was no attempt whatever, ~tr. Speaker, to give more tickets to members on this side than that side.

As a matter of fact 1I think that some members on this side did not get any tickets. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell} : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: .I did not get any. Mr. Speaker, to that point Order, please~ The han. Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, I think my han. friend has made a very valid point, Mr. Speaker, that this is a departure from the norm. It is a departure from tradition. Mr. Speaker, I am in this House now going on twenty-one years SOME HON. MEMBERS : Too long. MR.

NEARY: - and on Openin0 Day in the House, and on Budget Day, the Opposition members of the House are offered at least one invitation. MR. HODDER: It is our House too. 798

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 356 MR. NEARY: This· year we have been offered a total of six. It is the people's House . The elected representatives have certain rights and privileges in this House, Mr. Speaker. We have been offered a total of six invitations for eight members. That is not rLght, Mr. Speaker, it is not fair and it just goes to show how arrogant and bigoted this administration has become in a short time. 799 NM - 3

March 16,1983 Tape No. 357 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The Chair is not sure this is a valid point of order. It is something that happened outside the Chamber of this House and maybe it is something that the House Leaders or the caucus chairmen can get together and decide and reach a resolution to. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! --·- MS.VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, today I am launchinq a campaign called "Join the Class of '83" des.igned to encourage people who have been out of school for a while to enrol in a post-secondary education program next September. With the transition from Grade Xl to Grade Xll as the final year of high school, very few high school graduates will be applying for entrance to the Province's post-secondary ~nstitutions next Fall. Therefore, there will be special opportunities for older people and students who were previously unable to gain access to high-demand programs with a limited number of student places.

The following institutions are participating in the "Join the Class of '83" campaign: Memorial University of Newfoundland; the College of Trades and Technology; the College of Fisheries, Navigation, Marine Engineering and Electronics; the Bay St. George Community College; and the 16 vocational schools across the Province. The campaign will be. co­ ordinated by a committee comprising representatives of the Department of Education and these institutions. In the corning months each 800

Harch 16,1983 Tape No. 357 ah-2 MS.VERGE: post-secondary institution will be using the news media to inform the public of its programs and the special opportunities for entrance in the next school year. Promotional posters featuring the theme "Join the Class of '83" will be displayed around the Province. Mr. Speaker, I have samples of the posters here with me. As part of the effort to encourage people to avai'l of training opportunities, vocational schools will be implementing a policy of accepting all qualified applicants on a first come-first served basis.

I think this is an excellent time for many women to get into trades and occupations now dominated by men. I invite all members of this Honourable House to inform their constituents of the special opportunities for people to enrol in university programs, technical programs, pre-employment trades training, apprentice pro~rarns and business education programs. the Class of '83". SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: MR.LUSH: I hope many people will "Join Hear, hear! Mr.Speaker. The hon.mernber for Terra Nova.

It seems little enough effort by the government to compensate for the lack of foresigh~ with respect to planning for Grade Xll. But nevertheless, Mr.Speaker, one certainly would have to support and endorse the effort to get people to return to a 801

March 16, 1983 Tape 358 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: post-secondary institution. However, with the unemploy­ ment so high, one would think that that would not be too much of a problem because, Mr. Speaker, it is the only place to go. We will all have to return to scholasticism and enroll in some institution to take up our idle time. But very seriously, Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope that it just will not be a wholesale registration in our post­ secondary institutions just for the sake of doing courses.

I do hope that there will be some counselling, some wise and prudent counselling, particularly for our young people 1 because we have so many young people today entering into post-secondary institutions, particularly our trade and vocational schools, without any counselling, without any career counselling as to the types of jobs that .they should get into, without any counselling with respect to the kinds of careers that will be in demand, and we find them getting into courses for which, of course, there is no demand in the market place.

So we certainly hope that there will be prudent counselling, there will be career counselling, particularly for our young people so that they do not enroll in a post-secondary institution for the sake of finding something to do. So with that caution, certainly we endorse this effort to get our people from all segments of society to return to a post-secondary institution, particularly next year when, of course, there will be no Grade XI students. We all, of course, are aware of the importance of training, both to our adult people, our citizens who are older, and particularly to our young people. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Before we proceed, I would like to welcome two groups to the galleries today, First of all, 802

March 16, 1983 Tape 358 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): a delegation from the town council of Maeystown with Mayor Jerome Walsh Deputy Mayor Hugh Farrell, Counsellor Ke.i th Keating and the Town Manager, Jim Mayo - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: - as well as a delegation from the Twillingate - New Wo~ld Island Development Association with their co-ordinator, Winston Jennings. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Ministerial Statements? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Terra Nova . MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I want to direct a couple of que.stions to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) to see i£ I cannot get some answers that I could not get yesterday from the Minister of Finance and the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins). But today, Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a couple 803

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 359 MJ - 1 MR. T. LUSH: of my questions specifically. in the area of Grade XII. I think all of the people of Newfoundland were under the assumption that Grade XII was going to improve the quality of education, that it was going to enhance our move towards equal educational opportunity in this Province and that it was not going to be vice versa. Bu~ with respect to a couple of the measures that the government took to save money in order to get the teachers for the Grade XII programme,I think a lot of people in this Province are very concerned.

It looks like weare robbing Peter to pay Paul and that we may not be arriving at the stag.e of improving the quality of education the way that we would have liked. Mr. Speaker, I want to first of all ask the minister about the measure respecting freezing the allocation of EMR 1special education salary units. As the minister knows this is a very, very important area and special education students are students who need special attention and for that reason the government has been giving as many teachers as possible over the years, but now we are going to cut them down.

My question to the minister is how many units would there have been spread throughout the Province, how many teacher units would there have been spread throughout the Province without this particular freeze that the minister brought in just last week? How many teachers would we be deprived of in this very sensitive area? MS. L. VERGE.: MR. SPEAKER. (Russell) : MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker. The hen. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, government has decided to put a freeze or a cap on the number of salary units supplied s'chool boards for special education designated EMR 1 • 804

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 359 MJ - 2 MS. L. VERGE: or educable mentally retarded teachers, for just those school districts, Mr. Speaker, where there are presently 10 per cent or more of the regular teachers designated as EMR special education teachers. Now, Mr. Speaker, that freeze is not a reduction, it is not a cut, it will simply mean that for those districts having more than that quota of EMR 1 special education teachers 1there total of EMR salary units will be kept at the p,resent level.

There will be allowances for turnovers-For example, if in the Avalon Consolidated School district one of the many EMR teachers retires now, resigns, leaves for whatever reason, the school board will get a replacement salary unit if the board so desires. Likewise school districts will be able to reassign their EMR teachers by 1for example, removing a special education teacher from a high school and putting a special education teacher for the first time in a primary school. '-805

March 16, 1983 Tape 360 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, it is reasonable :::rom an educational policy vie\orpoint 1 to put a cap on the percentage of special education teachers for the educable mentally retarded, since statically a much smaller percentage than ten of the student population are in need of special education, and perhEP>s there has been a ·cenlleHc y· in some school districts for too many students -to be labelied E !~ R and put into separate special educational groupings. The current educational philosophy, Mr. Speaker, is to promote integration of all students in sharing and interaction.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that there will be no freeze on salary units for trainable mentally retarded students, ~ .ose are students with more severe handicaps who need more intensive supervision and teaching. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: What we have here, Mr. Speaker, is a dramatic change in the way that TMR teachers have been assigned in the past. In the past,of course, they were assigned to the number of students,which is the right and proper way.

Today they are assigned by the number of-teachers that we have in the system. And, Mr. Speaker, that is the sad part of this pa~ticular measure that it is not assigned to the number of student ,s in the system any more, that it is assigned to the number of teachers. And my understanding is that we are going to lose somewhere between twenty-five to thirty teachers in the Province with this particular measure. So, Mr. Speaker, on to another . question one again that I could not seem to get any answer from - -'·- ------ the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) on, with respect to substitute teachers.

Substitute teachers, of course, are 806

March 16, 1983 Tape 360 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: very important to any system of education, and I understand that in many areas under the present pay system they find it very difficult to get substitute teachers. I am just wondering how much more difficult it is going to be now under this particular system. And my question , Mr. Speaker, is if the minister can indicate to us just how this particular measure is going to be brought in? We know that there is going to be a reduction in the salaries. Does the minister know exactly what the government's recommendations are in this respect?

The minister knows that substitute teachers now are paid like all other teachers,according to their qualifications and experience. How will the new measure be structured? What will be the changes? What will be the system? How will they be paid? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I must address some of the remarks the education critic, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) made at the beginning of his last remarks · on the change_in the allocation B07

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 361 MS. VERGE: of teachers for educable mentall y retarded student s. Mr. Speaker, it is not true that any school district in this Province is going to lose any educable mentally retarded special education teacher . MR. YOUNG: Right on, dear. MS. VERGE: The decision is that those school districts, not all of them but just those who presently employ more than 10 per cent of their regular teachers as EMR special education teachers, will be limited in future to that number. And, Mr.

Speaker, as I said before, there are sound education policy reasons for doing that because statistically there is nothing SD - 1 like 10 per cent of the student population who require that kind of special education teaching . And it is wrong, Mr. Speaker, to label too many students as EMR ; Mr. Speaker, some school districts in the Province do not have 10 pe 'r cent of their regular teachers as EMR special education teachers. And, Mr. Speaker, those school districts, if they see fit, will be able to get more salary units for special education purposes. There is no limit on TMR special education units.

They are without limit, on demand according to groupings of students who ·are identified by school boards. Mr. Speaker, something that most people do not .realize is that of the 8,000 teachers now employed in this Province 1 about 1, QOO are special education teachers. Now r wish to address the han. memher' ·s questions about government's measures to reduce the pay for substitute teachers. Mr •.

Speaker, it is the overall policy of government in being financially responsible to try to bring this Province's arrangement for paying substitute teachers more in line with the arrangements in the other provinces of Canada. The present arrangement BOB

..-.;.--.: March 16, 1983 Tape No. 361 so - 2 MS. VERGE: in Newfoundland and Labrador is significantly more generous than that of just about any other province in Canada . And, Mr . Speaker, we are not talking about medium term or long-term substitute teaching, we are not talking about replacement teaching for a couple of months while a woman in on maternity leave or while somebody is having an operation. What we are talking about is occasional substitute teaching wbe'il a teacher fills in for one day, when a teacher gets a call at eight o ' clock in the morning and is asked to report to a school nine o ' clock in the morning . In that type of occasional substitute 809

March 16, 1983 Tape 362 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: teaching, .Mr. Speaker, even if a teacher wanted to it is not possible for that teacher's full academic qualifications to be called into play, That teacher cannot prepare lessons, that teachers cannot and is not expected to supervise extra curricular activities, that teacher is not responsible for evaluation and record keeping the same way a full time regular teacher is, and Mr. Speaker, that is our policy objective. At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, as we pay salaries for more than 450 more teachers across the Province in the next school year, our teaching force is going to grow from 8,000 to over 8,500 next year. MR. SPEAKER (Russelll: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. l.USH: Mr. Speaker, this sounds just like the offshore negotiations. We have a cap put on the number of teachers now that we can have. Then one of the big controversial issues in the negotiation resulted because the teachers could not get the government to commit themselves in ~-rriting, and this is what I want to get onto next, the point that the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) would not acknowledge yesterday when I was talking about the Ministerial Statement which came about a day or so before the teachers were to vote and was an attempt by the government to pull the rug out from under the teachers in their voting. And yesterday I asked the question about the student/teacher ratio, saying that that was a major part of the contract, that the teachers wanted this included in their contract, this reduction in the student ratio to twenty-three to one. 810

March 16, 1983 Tape 362 NM- 2 MR. LUSH: I am just reading, for example, a Daily News account wich says, "Negotiators for the teachers are arguing that there is no guarantee the government will do it,'' that is bringing in the twenty-three to one ratio. It says, "Apparently the government is balking and it is a major issue for both sides since the reduction of the ratio from the present twenty-four to one to twenty-three to one would mean an additional 274 teachers." MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is into supplementary questions and he is making a speech. It is the Question Period. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEl\KER: To that point of order, The hon. member for Port au Port on that paint of order. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is not asking nearly as long a question as the anser that the minister gave to the last question. MR. NEARY: my colleague is saying. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: And it makes more sense what Oh, oh~ Order, please!

Order, please~ Again I would have to remind members,both to my left and to my right,that there is only a total of thirty minutes allocated for the Question Period and the questions as well as the answers should be as brief as possible. MR. LUSH: My question, 811

March 16, 1983 Tape 363 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, to the minister is simply, Did the NTA, did the teachers of this Province not want that, a student - teacher ratio twenty-three to one, which would not have cost the government any money, because they had agreed to this in 1981, did the teachers of this Province want that particular item written into their contract? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, as my colleague, the President of Treasury Board (Dr.

Collins) indicated yesterday, the pupil - teacher ratio has never been in a collective agreement and it is certainly not the intention of this government to put it in any collective agreement. Mr. Speaker, the pupil - teacher ratio, which is the main component of the formula used by government to allocate salary units for teachers to school boards is in government regulations under legislation. The regulations are made and.are changed by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council; therefore, the pupil - teacher ratio has never been, in the view of this government, a collective bargaining issue.

It is an educationa~ issue, an important educational issue 1 and, Mr. Speaker, while a commitment was made to lower the ratio a couple of years ago, at that time .the deterioration in the economy was not predicted and it was only reasonable far that decision to be reviewed. Therefore, in November, when we made adjustments to the Budget, that commitment, as well as every other commitment and every other social prograrnrne.was placed under review and it was not possible, until government entered into the final decisions for the Budget for the new fiscal year 1for that .coifllldtment to be reaffirmed.

I made the announcement of the final decision on the lowering of the ratio to twenty-three to one for next September at the earliest possible opportunity 812

£__ March 16, 1983 Tape 363 EC - 2 MS VERGE: after the government decision was made rather than holding it in abeyance until after the Budget Speech tomorrow . Because, Mr . Speaker, it was important for that information to be made available to school boards for their planning purposes and also, Mr . Speaker, I thought it was only fair for the members of the NTA to have that information before their scheduled vote last Thursday. And , Mr. Speaker, I resent the inferences from the member opposite that the timing .of the announcement was somehow calculated for political ef£ect. 813

March 16,1983 Tape No. 364 ah-1 MS. VERGE: Mr.Speaker, the announcement was timed as s9on as possible after the decision was made for valid budgetary reasons. After all, Mr. Speaker, we are talking about an extra expenditure for teachers' salaries,directly resulting from the ratio being lowered,of $8 million. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.member for Terra Nova.

MR.LUSH: Mr.Speaker, the significant thing here is that the minister brought in this Ministerial Statement a day or so before the teachers were to vote guaranteeing a principle that they would not give the teachers in writing, namely,the reduction of the student/teacher ratio. Secondly,! asked the minister yesterday whether or not the item with respect to substitute teachers had been previously agreed to. I have here a update sent out by the NTA which,of course, says that both sides had initialled the substitute teacher issue. And it says, "The move by government made the potential package invalid". So , Mr.

Speaker, my question to the minister,was this not a case of breaking faith, was this,not a case of not bargaining in good faith? I think the NTA call it'contract stripping.' Was this not a case of contract stripping when both sides had agreed to the issue with respect to substitute teachers, that there would be no change, and then when the minister made . -. - this statement she brought in a change? Is this not a case of contract stripping? MR.SPEAKER: Education. MS.VERGE:. The han. Minister o.f Mr. Speaker, I again have 814

March 16,1983 Tape No. 364 ah-2 MS.VERGE: ·to take issue with the insinuations of the member opposite about the timing of the announcement about the supply of teachers for next year. Mr.Speaker, the choice was announcing it before the scheduled vote last Thursday or after the scheduled vote. Now, Mr.Speaker, I think it was in the best interest of everyone, certainlY the school boards 1 and I believe the members of the NTA 1for me to have announced it at the first opportunity 1which was before their vote 1 so they would have full information at that time. Mr.

Speaker, the member's _questions about collective bargaining should not be, in my view, raised in this han. House. There is a process in motion for negotiating and my colleague 1 the President . -- ~ . - . _, of Treasury Board(i)r. Collins) dealt ~vith these questions as much as it is in the public interest to do so in Question Period yesterday. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisher -ies.

I understand that there is a programme in place with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) for an inshore fishing gear programme for Labrador residents. Could the minister outline what the regulations or what the stipulations are for a person to qualify under such a programme? 815

March 16, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 365 SD - 1 Th.e han. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely astoundedl The han. gentleman has been in the House of Assembly now for -what? -two terms. We have had a programme in place for subsidies to fishermen1for gear replacement and new gear and getting better equipped, on the Labrador Coast particularly, for the last seven years and now he finally asked a question a.bout the programme. MR. YOUNG: He was in charge of the programme. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I sadly regret that1because the people on the Labrador Coast are ' important people,and the fishermen in particulart and I regret the fact that the member who represents them cannot supply them with the information required. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: for Torngat Mountains. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I thank th.e minister for his answer. I will ask the minister another question.

If the programme is in place for Labrador fishermen,why has the minister's department approved payments out of this progr.amme for six longliner fishermen from Conception Bay? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The han. Minist.er -of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is referring to a gear replacement or gear subsidy programme which appli~s to all the Province, not just Labrador, all the Province. We have had a gear subsidy programme iwplace ~or the las·t seven years , not 'for just Labrador.

So the people out in Conception Bay or on the Burin Peninsula or down around H~rbour Breton or Gaultois area, any area of the Province, can qualify. 816

March 17, 1983 Tape No. 365 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Torngat Mountains. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. member MR. WARREN: I am surprised, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) does not know what is happening within his own department, where representatives of his own department have rejected applications to his department and said, •not approved for payment' and other people in the minister's own _department have said 1 'yes 1 they qualify under the Labrador programme • ' Now, Mr.

Speaker, my third question to the minister is is it true tqat longliner fishermen from Conception Bay and Notre Dame Bay who are fishing off the Labrador Coast are being paid out of the programme for inshore fishermen in Northern Labrador? Is it true - yes or no? MR. ~PEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, we adopt _ the policy that we do not discriminate. And if a fisherman out in Bonavista Bay or out in Conception Bay qualifies under the criteria qualifies to get federal government dollars,or provincial government dollars in this case, in some form of subsidy , we do not discrimi.nate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h.ear. MR. MORGAN: If that fisherman ~s a full~ time fisherman and he qualifies for th.e programme , he will get the money from the pr~gramrne. End of.question. SOME· RON. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN! MR. SPEAKER: member for Tbrngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Hear, near. Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, th.e non. Mr. Speaker, number one under the requirements says, 'You Il)USt be a full-time 817

March 16 1 1983 Tape No. 365 so - 3 MR . WARREN: fisherman' 1 and number two says 1 'You must be a resident of Labrador '. Can the minister tell the bon. House why fishermen from Conception Bay and No tre Dame Bay are paid under this programme? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh 1 oh. MR . WARREN: He cannot answer it 1 that is why! Shameful! ,. 818

March 16, 1983 MR. S. NEARY ': MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Tape No.366 MJ - 1 Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I would prefer to put my questions to the Premier but obviously he is not in his seat today,so I have no choice but to drop back to second choice, to the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr. W. Marshall). My question has to do, Mr. Speaker, with the record number of Newfoundlanders who are unemployed.

As of the end of February 1 44,000 Newfoundlanders were officially listed as being unemployed, 50 percent of those are in the age bracket of between eighteen and twe~ty-five years of age,and that is the number one problem, not only in Newfoundland but in Canada. Now ~he Government of Canada have brought in some make-work programmes to try to cope with the record unemployment in this Province, NEED programmes and community development programmes.

Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what plans the provincial government have, if any, to develop special ways and means to try to cope with the record unemployment we have in this Province at the present time.especially unemployment amongst young people? MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, while the matter of unemp~oyment · is a matter of great concern to this government, it hasalways been and will continue to be of national conc~rn.

I would point out to the hon. member the rate of increase _in Newfoundland was not as high as in certain other province:;., -such as Quebec and British Columbia. Be that ~s it may,- the hon. the Premier, as I think the hon. ge~tleman would see if he reads the papers, 819

March 16, 1983 Tap e No. 366 MJ - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: . had wanted to take this up in an immediate conference with the First Ministers on the economy but he was, apparently, as reports in the paper indi .cate anyway ., he was thwarted on this by the Prime Minister. As far as the plans are concerned, Mr. Speaker, we . are constantly qoing everything that possibly can bedone in this Province to develop the resources which we have.

In order to develop the resources that we have, of course, we have to retain the resources which we have., I thi~k for the hon. gentleman to ask me' that question, I can give him a specific example of the type of things that we are striving to do with respect to employment. It was just the other day with the oil rigs, for instance ·, the oil rigs on their way to Nova Scotia, and the hon. gentleman applauds the fact that the oil rigs are on their way to Nova Scotia,.whereas we ~. dig 2.eV:eey.thing we could to get them.

We are still determined that they are go .ing to come in to Marystown which has the facilities for the purpose of repairing those rigs • .. 820

March 16, 1983 Tape 367 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL : We have a lot of plans, Mr. Speaker, for this Province for the purpose of getting our younger people to work, through the utili- zation of our resources. To that end we made a realistic proposal and arrived at an agreement in principle for the settlement of the offshore, which regrettably has not been taken up yet.

But to that end we have also taken an action in the Water Rights Reversion Act,for the purpose of recapturing the power that the hon. gentleman's friends gave away some years ago, with a view to opening up employment in Labrador, and to that end,first and foremost, our main concern is and must and always will be the fishery of this Province. We are doing everything we possibly can1 within our capacity and within our resources,to develop this great industry for the future. So, Mr. Speaker, we are doing everything we possibly can in the situation.

We are obviously concerned about empioyment, but I have to observe to the hon. gentleman, if he were more positive in his support as a Newfoundlander, I think we might have an opportunity of getting further ahead. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARYi Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russel1) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: . A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Everybody in this Province knows why the rigs are not at Marystown where they should be. MR. 'IOBIN: It is because you supported --- ·- Chretien. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 821

March 16, 1983 Tape 367 EC - 2 MR . NEARY : Thirty times yesterday, Mr. Speaker, you had to call the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr . Tobin ) to order. Thirty times ! I do not know if his constituents sent him in here to be - MR. TOBIN: Only because you we re (inau di ble ). MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order , please! MR . NEARY: - sent him in here to be rude and arrogant and ignorant or not , but the hon . gentleman is certainly showing his ignorance in this House . Now, Mr .

Speaker , the rigs that the hon . gentleman spoke about are not in Marystown because of the attitude and because of the arrogance and the stupidity of this government and because of the reason I gave yesterday, that Mobil and the drilling companies are afraid that the rigs might be arrested, Mr . Speaker, because the ·. 822

MArch 16, 1983 Tape 368 PK - 1 MR. NEAR Y: han. the Premier may go off of his head again and do something foolish like he did with the Day of Mourning. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask the han. gentleman to be a little more specific. I believe unemplo yment is much higher that 44,000 Newfoundlanders. I think it is closer to 55,000 or 60,000, because an awful lot of Newfoundlanders do not now register they have become so discouraged and depressed. They have given up hope an~Mr. Speaker, the outlook is very bleak for these people. What about the hydro development on the Lower Churchill?

What about the Labrador Highway? What about a transmission line to bring the power down to the Strait of Belle Isle? What about the tunnel the administration started in 1975, starting th~ tunnel across the Strait of Belle Islel What about these projects, Mr. Speaker ~ And can the han. gentleman tell us ho~ many rigs will be on the Grand Banks this year? The hon •. gentleman wrote a letter to Mr. Chretien 1the man he now criticizes,saying it should be limited to eight, because the hon. gentleman was afraid they were -: ~- going to overheat the economy.

The only thing that is going to be overheate ,1, l·1r. spe:aker- it i~~: t~e _ _: ~onomy- is the han. ~e~tlernan,because now I understand there · are going to be ten rigs theire. MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Order , please! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition is entering into the realm of debate. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I understand - I will throw this in with the other question I put to the hon. gentleman - I understand that the hon. gentleman did not want to overheat the economy by having too many rigs on the Grand Banks this year. Now as a result of Ottawa's intervention 823

March 16, 1983 Tape 368 PK - 2 MR. NEARY : there will be ten instead of eight. I would like for the hon. gentleman to confirm that and to answer the other questions about the hydro power on the Lower Churchill, the Labrador Highway, the transmission line and the tunnel underneath the Strait of Belle Isle? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Preside .nt of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, I hope everyone notes what an apologist the hon. gentleman is for his friends up in Ottawa . The fact of the matter with respect to the rigs,let us make it crystal clear is the 824

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 369 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: phoney, weak-kneed statement made by the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) who is grasping - that is what he is doing - grasping for some excuse for not standing up for Newfoundland, particularly not standing up for the people of Marystown, receiving the telephone calls,that I know he must have received,condemnina him for not standing up for the people of Newfoundlandr so what he had to res0rt to was to the subterfuge. They are trying to say that this Province is going to arrest a rig so that the rigs would not be brought into Marystown.

Well 1I ask the hon. member,why was the Zapata Ugland into Marystown if people were afraid that it was going to be arrested? There is no such question at all of Mobil being afraid of the provincial government. ~fuat Mobil are afraid of,unfortunately,is the federal government because,let it be known,that Mr. Mason indicated to me ·that they were going to Marystown and subsequently afterwards, after this conversation with him-and I indicated quite firmly and stronaly that we woul,d expect him to go to Marystown- there were statements made _~Y the federal government, the Minister of Energy, Mi~es and Resouces, Mr.

Chretien- anybody _ by tne name of Jean the han. gentleman embraces and loves; ybu cannot say anything about anyone oy the name of Jean- MR. NEARY: EXcept John Crosbie. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: -and Mr. Eddy Goldenberg, who was the assistant,to the effect that they were going __ ! __ -- -- ·- to Nova Scotia, In effect wha~ happened was the federal government have forced Mobil to file a plan,which is before the Coast Guard now, to bring these rigs to Nova Scotia. - . - -- That is nothing short of a disgrace, Mr. Speaker. They 825

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 369 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: belong in Marystown and that is where they should be. As I say 1the only government Mobil is afraid of 1unfortunately,is the federal government. They showed th£s when they gambled with the lives of workers at the instigation of the federal minister, and they have shown it now as they prepare to tow the rigs past Marystown into Nova Scotia. takes delight in that very sorry for him. S'OME HON MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Now if the han. gentleman and exults in that, I feel very, Oh, oh~ Well, he asked the question, Mr. Speaker, and he will get the answer. MR.

NEARY: anything about it. MR. SPEAKER (Russell ·} : MR. NEARY: You have no power to do Order, please! As to the Lower Churchill, ~r. Speaker, we are striving to do what we possibly can to ge 't the Lower Churchill developed. SOME IION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: In order to get the Lower Chu~chill developed it is going to be necessary to get a power corridor through Quebec.

We were ~iven a bill, a bill was passed by the federal government which makes it impossible to realize at a very early stage that power corridor because we have to first of all expropriate the land ourselves. we have to ~ake application for the National Energy Board. And in order to make the application, 826

March 16,1983 Tape No. 370 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: we have to have a customer. Butthe customer says, 'Before we can agree to buy your power, you have to have a route.' So it is the chicken and the egg situation, there is no way to do it. It is an ineffective act,but we are wrestling with it and seeing what we can do. As to ·the reference with respect to the number of rigs, Mr.Speaker, we will see how many rigs are there. As far as we are concerned, our proposal stands.

Our proposal was a proposal which provided , Mr.Speaker, for the rate at development of national energy self-sufficiency , our proportionate share to be determined by the federal government with certain reasonable checks .on it. In return for this,we were to be able to determine how it was to be developed.And from what we have seen with the rigs going by Marystown the last few days,it bears out the wisdom of why we have to have control as to how the resource is going to be developed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MR.MARSHALL: On the other side of the coin, Mr.Speaker, our proposal also envisaged the right to use --- .... . ,-. that resource to bring our per capita earned income up to the average of other Canadians ..:_ no more, no less than that - and that was turned down also, Mr.Speaker. So I ask the han. gentleman,when he talks about matters of the nego~iations, that agreement in principle that Mr.

Chretien could not and would not deliver, I ask the han. gentleman to get up on his feet and tell us what is wrong with Newfoundlanders getting a equal per capita income with the rest of Canada and what is wrong with Newfoundland being able to have a control over the offshore so we.will not see floating platforms 827

Marc_h 16, 1983 Tape No. 370 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: being towed past Marystown in the same way as we are now seeing rigs being towed past. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : has expired. Hear, hear! Order, please! The time for Question Period PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: table the report - MR. NEARY: into Marystown, why not? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Labour Mr.

Speaker, I would like to If we cannot order them Order, please! - of the matters transacted by the Minister of Labour and Manpower during 1982 under the provisions of the Labour Relations Act, Public Service (Collective Bargaining) Act, Fishing Industry (Collective Bargaining) Act, Newfoundland Teacher (Collective Bargaining) Act, the ~eport of the Labour Standards Board for 1982, the Report of the Newfoundland Labrador Relations Board for 1982, and the Labour Standards Regulations, 1983, for hon •. members opposite to read so that they will know something about what is' going on in the Province.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: It being Private Member's Day, we will mov~ on to Motion No. 10. The hon. Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) adjourned the debate last day and he has about five or six minutes left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when I adjourned the debate I was 828

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 371 JV - l MR. HICKEY: discussing a couple of aspects of this Resolution. I have not gotten to one

section which is rather interesting. Mr. Speaker, I would like to read, AND

WHEREAS" - one of the many

whereas .in the Resolution - "WHEREAS the comniunities of Harbour Breton, Fermeuse, Burin, St. Lawrence, Trepassey, Gaultois, Rarnea, Grand Bank and - others face social and economic extinction because of the virtual closedown of the fishing industry. Mr. Speaker, I wonder why the han. gentleman did not include St. Anthony? MR. TULK: St. Anthony is the only one open. MR. HICKEY: St. Anthony is going to be looked after by the Feds. I wonder why? The han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is a walking contradiction.

He says in the beginning, the onshore processing sector of the fishery is under provincial jurisdiction, and yet he justifies intrusion by the Federal Government into Provincial jurisdiction, .into one community, one town in the province, while he says all the other communities face extinction. He blatantly, Mr. Speaker, acknowledges Federal Government involvement, purely on the most blatant, partisan basis that has ever been observed in this province by the Newfoundland's Representative in the Government of Canada, the han. Mr • . Rompkey. But, Mr.

Rompkey does not give two damns about the 'other communities though. You did not see him put any money in the other communities, no, while this province put $25 million in Mr. Speaker, to keep other fish plants going. 829

March 16, 1983 Tape 372 EC - 1 MR. HICKEY: Such blatant politics! I have never seen the like! And then, Mr. Speaker, he goes on - I mentioned it last week but, I mean, it is so breath-taking that it bears reading again. Just . try this one on .for size: "And

whereas the provincial government has the Fisheries d~partment and the minister, both of which are functionally invisible" - Mr. Speaker, I draw the attention of the House again to the fact that the han. James Morgan, Minister of Fisheries, is indicated in writing by the hon. gentleman from Fogo (Mr. Tulk) to be invisible. The only thing that is left for the Minister of Fisheries to do is to be catapulted into outer space tQ draw attention . to the fishery. That is about the only thing that is left for him to do. MR. TULK: Slow it down a bit now. MR.

HICKEY: The han. gentleman is having trouble understanding me, is he not? I know his problem. I will see if I can slow down a bit for you. Mr. Speaker, it is so ironic that those other documents are tabled today by the Only Living Father - our case. The

section there on the fishery says, "Cod fishing can be summed up in three sentences: Catch them ·. Split them. Trim and gut them. We were caught by Mr. Smallwood, we have been split by the federal government and now they are trying to gut us." Instead of bringing in l;l,othing · resolutions like this, Mr. Speaker, it would be fitter for the hon . gentleman and his colleagues opposite to stand up for this Province, to take a stand for this Province and do some lobbying with their friends in Ottawa to stop persecuting and discriminating against this Provine~, to stop punishing the people of this 830

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 372 EC -2 MR . HICKEY: Province because it happens to be that they do not like the colour of the government that is in office. MR . TULK : Pardon? MR . HICKEY : If the hon . gentleman does not believe me, does not seem to be convinced, may I'try this one on him, Mr. Speaker, as a classic example: The Shoe Cove satellite, of which they are packing up and loading up today - we asked them to change their minds and they did not respond to·our communication. We offered to cost- . share it with them and they did not respond to our telex.

We offered to pay the full bill of operating and they did not respond to our telex. The latest is that we have offered to .buy it an~ pay for the operation and they·have not responded to our telex. Of course, we picked up The Daily News yesterday and found out the Prime Minister had turned it down. 831

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 373 SD - 1 MR. HICKEY: Does the gentleman.want some more proof of how the government in Ottawa discriminates against this Province, how the government in Ottawa considers this Province some kind of satellite instead of a fullfledged Province, how it insults the people of this Province? And the hon. gentlemen opposite, the very best they can offer, Mr. Speaker,, is to sit down and mealy-mouth a few words every now and then and they do not have the guts, the common guts, to stand up and be counted as Newfoundlanders. MR. TULK: Let us have a referendum on separation. MR.

HICKEY: Let us have a referendum. Why is the hon. gentleman talking about separation? Separation f~om what, Mr. Speaker? How can you separate from something that you are not part of? Surely the hon. gentleman is not suggesting that I am in any way suggesting that we separate from the great country cal.led Canada. Mr. Spe~er, we do not have t.a beca-use we a,re not part of it yet. MR. TULK: , W:e. are not? MR. HICKEY: No. :Mr. SJ?eaker, it is too bad- I would love to have another fifteen minute.s to ;r:ea,l,l,y torment the hon. gentleman, to make nim a little uncomfortable in his seat over there.

The fact of the matter ts1 :Mr. Speaker, let me conclude by saying this, this is a nothing resolution •. Itwas brought in purely to kill time, for a few political· kudos, to spread the bad word, to si?read anything but facts·~ And,, Mr. Speaker, it is too bad that the hon. gentleman does not address the issues such as unemployment and a nurnber.of other issues which the hon. gentleman is most familiar with. But he chases, Mr. Speaker, to go the other route. ·832

, March 16, 1983 Tape No . 373 so - 2 MR . HICKEY: So, Mr . Speaker, I have tried my darnest to find it in myself to support this resolution and,quite frankly,I have come to the conclusion, Mr . Speaker, after a great deal of thinking and pondering the issue.that I really have to vote against it . MR . TULK : Surprise~ surprise~ 833

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 374 MJ - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. the member for Eagle River. MR. HJ;SCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In addressing the resolution the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) forgot to say, 'THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the han. House impress and implore the government and,in particular,the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to immediately outline his plan of action for the processing sector of the industry.' Harbour Breton, Fermeuse, Burin, St. Lawrence, Trepassey, Gaultois, Ramea, Grand Bank and many others would like . t~ know that course of action. The Action Committee in Burin is meeting here, in St.

Joh~'s, tonight at Gonzaga High School and they ar~ wondering what is going t? happen and what action the Minister of Fisheries is going to take · But I would like to refer to what the Kirby Commission outlined, Mr. Speaker. It said that if there is going . ' to be a ~esolution,and if it is going to solve the .· . problems in the fishing industry in Atlantic canada 1 it will not be by the Minister of Social Services getting up and saying this is a worthless resolution, that it is only here to occupy time.

We have to get rid of this attitude where one party takes on the other, where industry takes on ·unions, where unions take on the companies . Instead Mr. Speaker, what we need,after 400 years, is co-operation from all sectors, from all parties involved. But are we getting that? Of course we are not, Mr. Speaker. We are not getting it in any way,and we will not get it in the future.

The reason why we find ourselves in this situation is because in The Economy 1980 which was published by this government, · it said, in 1980, "The provincial boat building industry is currently receiving some stimulus from the revival of the interest in the provincial 834

March 16, 1983 Tape No . 374 MJ - 2 MR . E. HISCOCK : fishery . In 1979 there were over 100 longliners in the thirty-five foot to sixty-five . foot class under construction in the province as \·lell as a large number of boats in the eighteen to thirty-five foot range. Small local shipyards have geared up to meet the current level of demand £or new vessels and this has provided . . - some employment in :::ural a.l:'eas of our .?r()vir:ce . A healt:ty 835

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 375 PK-1 MR. HISCOCK: medium term demand for newly constructed longliners is indicated by the importance that is attached to the longliner fishery in 'Setting a Course', a regional strategy for the provincial fishery that was published in 1977. Local shipyards are therefore in a position to develop strategic and tactical plans to exploit the opportunities that presently exist. The linkage with the inshore fishery gives the local boat building industry l~cational advantage upon which a viable rural based industry can be consolidated." I~ 1977, Mr.

Speaker,when Canada extended to the 200 mile limit, this government, the present government of the day, stated that the 2oo mile limit was going to be the salvation of all the people in the Province, all the unemployed, so,therefore, go and get larger .boats, get larger extensions on plants, give more licences to the crab industry, and other fish p~ocessors in the Province. And what do we find, Mr. Speaker? In less than t~o years we find that Gaultois, Ramea, Harbour Breton, Burin, .st. Lawrence ·, Trepassey, and Grand Bank - and a lot of people fo~get about not only St.

Anthony but Lewisporte, only two years after the bright rosy future that we were supposed to have. That is the kind of planning that we have in this Province. They said they loaned the fishing industry $25 million. That came out of the-Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation which is funded 90 ~er cent by the federal government • . So here is the government here claiming it is their money, but it is the Canadian Taxpayers' mon~y. The other part that I wan~ to get on to, Mr. Speaker, is they said we should be lobbying with the federal government.

Well, I am quite pleased to say that in Labrador fisheries the federal government 836

Ha rch 16, 1 983 Tape No. 375 PK-2 MR . HI SCOC K: is spending $12.5 million to upgrade the fishing industry along the Labrador Coast. And what is the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) doing? Cutting back on a programme, a 30 per cent gear subsidy. In last year's Budget the Minis 't.er of Finance did away with that, and here is the pr~sent Minist .er of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) still funding programmes under that which was supposed to have been done away with by the Minister of . Fin~nce.

People in Labrador believed that this programme was done away with, and now we hear that people in Twillingate and in Notre Dame Bay and Conception Bay are still being funded. For my part, as a representative of Labrador, if it is a progamme that was done away with by the Minister of Finance as a cost saving measure, why is it loans are still being processed and approved by the Minister of Fisheries at the present time? ., 837

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 376 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: But, Mr. Speaker, the sad thing is that after 400 years of history in the fishing industry, from John Cabot to Sir Humphrey Gilbert, and on down to the present time, what do we have? We still are not producing quality fish. -Iceland, a small l~ttle country like Iceland can put top quality fish on the American market. And with regard to that, after reading the Kirby Commission Report, for those who have not read it, even if we produce quality fish, Iceland has such a firm corner on that market now it will be impossible to break into it.

With the high class restaurants and fast food chains, if we do compete in that market then we will lose a lot of our profits. So what he recommends is that we compete on the second level, with smaller restaurants, and also the larger restaurants, the prisons and the armed forces. But the thing is, Mr. Speaker, after 400 years of Liberal and Conservative administrations in this Province, we find ourselves still not producing quality fish.

The fishermen themselves in the Province are saying, "Okay; if we are going to produce quality fish then we need the resources and the money to upgrade the facilities." To get back to the Labrador Coast, the federal government is putting in $12.5 million for the fishing industry, for an ice making machine, bait holding units, holding units, and ~epairing of other facilities. Privately owned f~sh plants can get up to a 50 per cent rebate from this programme. And who owns the majority of fish plants on the Labrador Coast? From L'Anse-au-Clair to Nain, Mr.

Speaker, 100 per cent of the piants along the Labrador Coast are owned by the provincial government .• And are they cost-sharing '838

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 376 NM - 2 MR. H:ISCOCK: on this and saying, "Okay, we are going to expand the plant in Black Tickle, in Cartwright, in Nain, in Makkovik, in Hopedale, in Fox Harbour, in Williams Harbour, in Mary's Harbour, L'Anse-au-Clair and Red Bay"? The answer is no, Mr. Speakere They are saying, "unless it is a ninety/ten deal we are not going to have anything to do with it'~ And what are we saying about the Northern cod stocks? By 1986 they are going to triple in size. We hear the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan), and we hear the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr, Tobin), and the other members along the South Coast, and here in St. John's, claiming that they want a greater share in the Northern cod stocks. MR. T.ULK: Some of them are so disgusting. MR. HISCOCK: But what about the Labrador Coast itself, Mr. Speaker? Unless we expand those plants 1 we are going to continue to see over-the-side sales in those areas off Makkovik, off Smokey, and off Black Tickle. And because the Labrador Coast happens to be in the Federal Minister of Small Business, Mr. Rompkey's district, because it happens to be in Mr.

Rompkey•s district then he can pay the full shot. As a result that is the reason why the federal government had to 1~~~ af~er St. Anthony. Grand Bank and all the other ones got some of . ~ - · -.. - ~- .. . .. ... - ~ ·- -~-- - the $25 million,loans out of money that was provided by the federal government, The one· that did not g~t any help was St. Anthony. If the federal gover~.~?-_!:.' through the Saltfish Corporation, did not help St. Anthony last year it wbuld.be like Ramea is today, closed and the doors locked, Mr. Speaker. And that is the reality of it. 839

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 376 NM-3 MR. HISCOCK: The people in Grand Falls, White Bay, Labrador, are suffering because they happen to have the federal minister representing them. B40 .· .;

March 16, 1983 Tape 377 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: That is smallness in politics. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) says the road from Plum Point to Roddickton is not a priority, he says that the airport at St. Anthony is not a priority, and yet will he help build an airstrip in Williams Harbour or in St. Lawrence or a road, Mr. Speaker, from Red Bay? No. So it is very easy for them to get into cheap politics and say, 'Okay, let the federal minister do it.' But with regard to the pro­ cessing industry, Mr .

Speaker, in this Province it is completely the responsibility of this government, as well as marketing, and we have done a terrible job in the past, all administrations. And this government that has been representing us for the past twelve years, as far as I am concerned, is at ·the top of the list. Where are the dreams of the people in Harbour Grace for the super port? Where are the two loan boards that were set up? One loan board was appointed, they were found to be incompetent and were removed, then another one was appointed. What happened there, Mr. Speaker?

What happened when in the 1979 election the loan board overspent by several million dollars? Now you can get a crab licence or any other licence if you are a good P.C. Party member and you do not mind paying a little bit into the coffers? That is the way, Mr. Speaker, that our administration is run. A lot of people in this Province are saying in many ways we are better off ~ving a lot of the control in the federal government because at least they do not get into petty politics, with the graft and corruption that we have seen in the past. 541 .; ... -

March 16, 1983 Tape 377 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: The other thing I would like to mention is with regard to the welfare recipients the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) talked about. If he was so concerned about the unemployed and the people on social assistance, why is it that he has done away with the amount of money that they can get for non­ prescription drugs? Why is it, Mr. Speaker, that they now find that costs are going up, and the amount which the Social Services Department gives them each month is not going up? Why is it that when they go out to look for jobs they can not find them?

A question that I would' like to ask the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) -she said in her Ministerial Statement today, "I think this is an excellent time for many women to get into the trades and occupations now dominated by men." Those women who are on social assistance and those women who are single parents, is she going to allow them to draw assistance and go to university or trade scho·ol? I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, the answer is no.

It is a nice flowery statement and let the news media pay for it, but those older, mature students who go into the trade school, and find jobs after, at least half of .those seats will be paid by the federal Manpower department. The other half, Mr. Speaker, if they are filled, will get twenty­ five dollars a week from the 842 -'

March 16,1983 Tape No . 378 ah-1 MR.HISCOCK: Provincial Department of Education. That is what will happen , Mr.Speaker, to the older people and to the women who want to get into these trades now. It is an excellent opportunity because of Grade Xll being implemented ,but unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, we find in this Province that the Grade Xlls do not have the equipment that is needed. But to go back to the resolution we find, Mr. Speaker, after 400 years,andanother down turn in the international economy 1that the fishing industry in Newfoundland is in a disastrous situation.

And what are we seeing from the provincial government? We are seeing nothing. We find that $500,000 is given by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) to the seal industry. Three years in a row I wrote the Minister of Fisheries asking him what he was going to do about a collecting system along the Newfoundland coast,and get into quality pelts? And what was done? That is up to private enterprise. We cannot get into that. After three years, Mr. Speaker. MR.MORGAN: Stop telling lies. MR.HISCOCK: Some other time, Mr. Speaker, I will get the letters and I will table those letters in the House of Assembly.

That is what I will do, Mr.Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER :(Ayl ward ) : .MR. HISCOCK: speak for themselves. Order, please! We will see that the letters Unless the minister is saying that what he writes is lies. I do not know if that is true. But with regard to this resolution, Mr. Speaker, we are finding out ourselves , as I said, that we cannot compete in the international market because of the tariffs of 843 ~ ·-

March 16,1983 Tape No. 378 ah-2 MR.HISCOCK: the large countries, and yet the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) says,on the one hand, that \ve have to get away from dependency on the United States markets and we have to get into the European markets.And because Canada gives so many trade-offs in the economic zone -and ·a lot of people still fail to realize that we do not own the 200 mile limit. It is an economic zone that Canada administers ori behalf of the world and we have 844

March 16, 1983 Tape 379 PK - 1 MR. HISCOCK: first choice at it. If we can catch the fish fine, but if we cannot catch it then the rest of the world has second choice on it. And with regard to that, Canada has given certain trade-offs on the condition those countries lower their tariffs so the amount of fish that we catch, as first choice, is allowed to go into those markets .. And what has happened is the Europeans have not lowered their tariffs as fast as we thought they would. Now, of course, the federal government is retaliating and is now cutting back the amounts of the quotas.

The minister and the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) would agree, with regard to the quality of our fish, that if-we cannot break into new markets, if we cannot get the Japanese to buy more fish from our markets, if we cannot get that, Mr. Speaker, there'±s no need to continue to do reports, there is no need to give an extra $25 million or to buy new trawlers or to expand the plants. Because if the fish are coming back to the Grand Banks the way they are with the Northern cod, then we are going to have a surplus of fish and no markets.

The reality is we have to break into those markets, and the only way we are going to break into those markets is by trade-offs. And as I said, Mr. Speaker, we are not facing the facts. I would also like to ask the Minister of-Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) with resard to Spain fishing off the Flemish Banks, on the Tail of the Grand Banks, how would he handle them? They are outside the 200 mile economic,zone. I know he believes, and a lot of other people believe in this Province, we should have a 400 mile limit. But the international community is not ready for that yet; maybe in five or ten years time they will be.

But in the meantime, how would he recommend the federal government should deal with that? And, of course, the answe~Mr. Speaker, is co-operation. We need co-operation in the fishing industry, but we also need co-operation in the international market if we are going to find markets for our fish. 845 .: --

March 16, 1983 TApe 3 79 PK -2 MR. HISCOCK: So I would say to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, and to the other government members, that just because Labrador happens to be represented by the Federal Minister, Mr. Rompkey, in Ottawa, it does not mean that we are not members and residents of this Province and we do not deserve a little more than 10 per cent. And hopefully these marine haulups in ~t.

Lewis, the one in cartwright and in L'Anse-au-Diable will be expanded, and the government here will not take the arrogant attitude that because it happens to be represented by a federal government minister they will be denied their facilities and their rights. Now in closing on that remark, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), when he gets up, if he would clarify if this 30 per cent gear subsidy 846

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 380 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) did away with in last year's budget is done away with or not. Do the fishermen along the Labrador Coast still qualify for this? If they do they have a right to know because they cannot get it from his officials even though other people are being funded by it. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The han~ the Minister of Hear, hear. Mr.

Speaker, I guess it would be remiss on my part as the Minister of Fisheries if I did not speak in this debate and respond to the resolution put forward by the Opposition: respond to it and point out the flaws of what the Opposition are saying about the fishing industry. The last speaker who spoke in the .~ebate talked ab~~t Labrador. And the facti~, Mr. Sp~aker, if it was not for this government, this present government and the previous government under Premier Moores, the fishing industry in Labrador would be,today,non-e~istent.

It was this government which took over the plants along the Labrador Coas ·t, is pres-ently using the taxpayers' dollars to subs·idize them and keep them going. We are not doing it in ~illingate or on the South . Coast,or in Bonavista or elsewhere in the Province, we are doing it in Labrador. And that han. gentleman has. the nerve to stand up in the House and condemn the government for taking over plants in Labrador. Mr.

Speaker, if only we had television cameras here today and could play it back so the people on the Labrador Coast could hear a member here talking in such. a manner, a derogatory manner, abo .ut the things we are doing for the fishermen and the workers 847 .· ..... -

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 380 SD - 2 MR . MORGAN: along the Labrador Coast. It is disgusting. I will not respond any more than that to it. Now, Mr . Speaker, the fishing industry is indeed this Province 's most important industry . The fact is that last year.in Canada the export value of fish products was $1. 8 billion- $1.8 billion ~rth of fish was exported from Canada . Out of that more than $500 million worth, to be exact $550 million, of exports came from this Province . The value, in fact, in 1982 was up $8 million more than what it was in 1981 . Also, Mr.

Speaker, the tonnage of fish caught last year,in '82, was_about 1.4 metric tons . And out of that 1.4 metric tons of fish caught in all of Canada, again, Mr . Speaker, approximately one -quarter of that,or more than one -quarter,was caught right ltere in Newfoundland, right here in this Province. In fact, .there was an increase last year, 19.82, of 7,000 metric tons more fish landed in 1982 than 1981. Now does that indicate that the fishery is dead? Does it indicate the fishery is all doom and gloom? No 848 .:

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 381 MJ - 1 MR. J . MORGli_N: does not indicate that he indicates quite clearly and ob~iously that the fishery is alive and well. However, we have a problem it seems which the Opposition wants to glory in every day in this House of Assembly and keep on saying, 'Well, the processing end is the responsibility of the Newfoundland Government, so why do you not go out and solve the problems in the processing end?' Well, Mr. Speaker, we did resolve the problems in the laet year and a half to the tune of $24 million. What for, Mr. Speaker? I will tell you what for.

To keep jobs in many of the smaller and medium sized plants around this Province. To keep the plants going we put up $24 million. However, despite the efforts we are making in developing new fishing gear, despite the efforts we are making in assisting fishermen - and talking about responsibility, I mean,who really is responsible for the people in the fishing boats these :days? It is a divided jurisdiction.

N?body seems to want to :explain to-Eishermen, except when I travel and when the Premier travels and other ministers travel, the members on the government side,to explain to the people of Newfoundland that everything on the ocean, everything on the sea, everything in a boat, fishermen, is licenced by the federal government. The federal government decidea what size boats will be used. Now,I know my colleagues are not interested in fisheries here and in Corner Brook,but it is very important I get my points made here. Mr.

Speaker, everything on the ocean is under the federal jurisdiction, licenc~~g of boats, deciding the type of gear, the size of boats and the licencing of fishermen. Arid then on top of that, Mr. Speaker, the most important thing of all is that the management of the resource is strictly and totally under federal jurisdiction. Jim Morgan has nothing to say about setting quotas,whether it be herring, caplin quotas or cod quotas. We have nothing to 849

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 381 MJ - 2 MR . J. MORGAN: say about how much fish goes to foreign countries . We have no control over what fish goes to the large offshore trawlers and goes to the inshore boats, that is all federal government. Now why is it that the present Liberal Party in Newfoundland wants to hide its head in the sand and pretend that the problems today in the fishing industry are all caused by this present Government of Newfoundland and should all be resolved by this Governr .ent here in Newfoundland? ~ow, Mr.

Speaker, that just does not make sense.Because ,the fact is,how can you operat~ a plant i£ you have no fish going in that plant? And how many times have we heard the large companies in the ~ast six months, around the Province, say over and over, 'We h,ave to annonce the closing .of a plant today. We are going to layoff 250 - 275 employees or more. ' / 85 0 ·4--

March 16,1983 Tape No. 382 ah-1 MR. MORGAN: Over and over we heard it last Fall. What was the main reason they gave for closing the plants? The one very important major reason, lack of fish. They had no fish for their plants. My colleague from Trepassey can verify that. A large plant was closed all last Fall because of what? MR.BAIRD: No fish. MR.MORGAN: Because there was no fish to go in the plant. Now Jim Morgan could not control that fish coming to the plant. Premier Peckford could not do it either. l1R.POWER: MR.MORGAN: Only the feds can do that.

In other words,you cannot have a proper management of the processing sector of the fishing industry unless you can control and properly manage the resource. The resource comes into the plants to be processed. Sure,they will say, you have control over the issuing of licenses~ ·you can take away their license, you can shut them down if you want 1 or put somebody else in. But what is the point of putting somebody else into Burin, or into Grand Bank,or St. Lawrence.or into Gaultois, or into Ramea,or into Trepassey, or into Fermeuse or Twillingate or elsewhere if there is no fish to be processed?

That is the key thing, Mr. Speaker, The Liberals want to h~de f::heir heads in the sand. But the fact is that the fish stocks have not been properly managed over the years. Now I do ~elieve, and I say it sincerely, I do believe the new minister in Ottawa is going to take the right steps. I do believe he is going to be very tough in dealing with foreign countries. I do believe he is going to event~ally say, no more fish for the foreign countries. And the last gentleman who spoke for the Liberal party said, "Oh, well, the Minister of Fisheries 851

March 16,1983 MR.MORGAN: is complaining Tape No. 382 ah-2 (Mr. DeBane) in Newfoundland a.bout the fish going to foreign countries". Well,what more should I do, Mr.Speaker,when we have fish plants closed here and high unemployment in those areas? We have plants closed down and people laid off because of no fish and at the same time yo~ can go out in a large coastguard vessel,or some other vessel,and you can see all kinds of foreign fishing fleets out there taking our fish stocks.

What do you want me to do, say, yes, I agree with that~ The fact is that last year we gave the European Economic Community , these countries alone, 18,000 metric tons of fish. And what did they do in return? They only bought 2000 tons. They bought 2000 tons of final processed product,but they came and took raw material, a quantity of 18,000 metric tons. Now if that is gaining access to markets - MR.NEARY: That is wrong. MR.MORGAN: It is wrong. The han. gentleman agrees but his colleagues are all mixed up over there.

The last speaker is condemning me for stopping and trying to stop gaining access to the European markets. Well the fact is if we have to give away our fish stocks,from our waters, in order to gain access to markets in Europe or elsewhere,and that same fish is going to be taken back and prpcessed and going to, end up in the market place in competition to our fish.processed in Canada, never, never should we do it. MR.NEARY: That is. wrong. B52 --

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 383 JV- 1 MR. MORGAN: And I am saying Mr. Speaker that the new Minister in the Government of Canada, the new Minister, Mr. Speaker, is indeed supporting, and I repeat,supporting this Minister's position, the Premier and his government's position in saying cut off the foreigners from taking our fish.And I commend him for that and I hope he can get the support of his Prime Minister and'Mr. MacEachen and the External Af~airs Minister and others up there to go along with him to stop this. MR. POWER': The only Liberal with any sense. MR.

MORGAN: The Liberals would like to lead the fishermen to believe, including Fogo Island, including Labrador and including LaPoile district and others, go around leading the fishermen to believe - oh, the Newfoundland Government have got no policies on the fishing industry. W:·hat nonsense, they got no policies. Jim Morgan has got no policies on the fishing industry. Well, Mr. Speaker, if we had no policies, why is it, a very, very basic question - HR. TULK: Stupid. HR. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I want to be heard in silence. MR. SPEAKER (Aylwai:d l : Order, please~ MR.

MORGAN: -why is it that the most important Task Force ever appointed on the fishing industry in Canada, headed by Dr. Michael Kirby~ why is it that Task Force not only listened to us in detail, not only accepted what we had to say but adopted, Mr. Speaker, adopted a number of --majo r- policies 'that we put forward from this government. And when we put them forward what did we do? We put them in : docUIIlent form .-it was called "The Fishing Industry, a Business and a Way of Life". . And that docUIIlent is available now for anyone to see. You read that document, 853 .-

1>1arch 16, 1983 Tape No. 383 JV -2 MR. MORGA.~: which shmvs the Newfoundland Go':'~:nment policy, and that was-what?··six or seven months ago, and then you read Dr. Michael Kirby's major report, and you \vill -~ ··-· see .many things that l•'e said in our policies on the fishin~ industry that have now been acce~te~ by the Kirby Task Force and,more importantly, accepted by the Federal Government.

Fina1ly,after all the years, we are finally getting $Omewhere and the Federal Government is listening to what we have to say on tne fishing industry.And we do appreciate,thattb.ecause we we.re convinced all along that what we were saying on fishery policies was right, 'the policies ;;ere right for the fishing industry in Newfoundland. Now, getting back to a serious problem. The:i:e is no problem in the fishing industry of a.ny major significance in the inshore sector of the Northeast coast. Fogo Island did wel1 last year.

Twillingate was not so bad. ~ihite Bay, Notre Dame Bay,• Bonavista Bay, Trinity Bay, i.t was a half decent fishery. 854

March 16, 1983 Tape 384 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: There are some problems in connection with the incomes of the fishermen who are only confined to using gill net fishing gear. They have no licences for other fishing activity and their incomes are down to a' level defined by Mr. Kirby as a poverty level. · Now, that is a question which is not addressed by the task force but is a problem. But other than that, on the Northeast coast and in the inshore fishing industry, which landed more fish. last year than in 198l,with a landed value of $8 million more than 1981, the industry is not doing too badly.

However, there is indeed a major problem in one sector of the fishing industry and it is in the deep-sea offshore sector. And we have been agonizing with the companies and others over the last number of months, since last September when my first meeting started, on how to d~al with this problem.

Now, the Liberal Party can get up arid say, 'Oh, well, it is your responsibility and your jurisdiction, so deal wi~ it, because it is in the processing sector.' But, because the fish could not get to the plants, because the large trawlers were forced out of , the gulf bringing fish to the South Coast plants and because of the over fishing on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks - I recall saying in Marystown three years ago at a major fisheries conference, 'Gentle~en, I do not want to preach gloom and doom' Mr.

LeBlan .c was there at the same time -'but,' I said, 'unless you can control the over fishing on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks all these foreign ships,and these flags of convenience ships from different countries throughout the world, unless you can stop that and 855 ·--

I March 16, 1983 ¥· MORGAN: properly managed Tape 384 EC - 2 control it and have harvesting of that fish, you are going to have a problem on the South coast of the Province, in particular, ,on the Burin Peninsula, because of a lack of fish.' fish, Mr. Speaker. MR. HISCOCK: MR. MORGAN: So there is a lack of And how are you going to do it? Now, if the little cracky from Labrador would keep quiet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. MORGAN: It is a major problem and the major problem is not common to the Burin Peninsula and the South coast.

It is common in Newfoundland but it is also common to plants like Canso in Nova Scotia, it is common to the North ~ydney plant in Nova Scotia, it is common to the Georgetown plant in P.E.I., closed for the last seven or eight months. It is a very major problem.. And all we are saying is it is a major Atlantic region problem in the fishing industry, in one sector, the deep-sea, and surely, the federal government has responsibil·i ty. It is fine for the Liberal Party in Newfoundland to say, 'Well, you resolve it, Mr. Peckford and your minister.

You resolve the problem and get those plants open.• It is a problem common to Atlantic Canada and surely, the Government of Canada has responsibility to the most important industry in this region. They can help out the oil and gas industry, Dome Petroleum, they can help ~ut the auto industry in Central Canada, so why not help the most important industry in our region of the country? So we are saying to them, 'We want those plants reopened. ' 856

Ma.rch 16, 1983 MR. TULK : MR. MORGAN : hon . gentleman is annoying. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. MORGAN: Tape 384 EC - 3 (Inaudible) Bu.rin closed. Mr . Speaker, please, the Order, please! Mr. Speaker, it is a ve.ry serious matte.r and this government is going to leave no stone untu.rned to make su.re that we as a government take the right decision with the federal government. The jobs in Bu.rin are important. The ·, 857

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 385 NM- 1 MR. MORGAN: jobs in Grand Bank are important. The jobs in Gaultois are important. The jobs down in Harbour Breton are important, and Fermeuse, and Ramea, and St. Anthony. And we are sayincr -~ only have five minutes left unfortunately., This is a very short debate. MR. TOBIN: By leave. MR. NEARY: No, not by leave. MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Leader of the Oppos.ition gives me leave r will carry on for a further twenty minutes. I will not get partisan. SOME ' RON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. 'SPEAKER (Aylwardl : MR. MORGAN: And I will not get partisan.

Oh, oh~ They do not want to hear the facts, Order, please! The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that we accept our responsiblities, we accept our responsibilities in a full and a very serious way. We will carry on doing things for the fishermen. That is really not our responsibility or jurisdiction but we will. We will do everything we possibly can to work on these problems in the large companies. But the large companies have had their problems, not merely because of the Newfoundland Government or the fede:t1al government ., they have a lot to account for themselves. Account for for "\'That reason?

Very p'oor management, no question in my mind; lack of efficiency in their plants; in some cases very poor productivity ·.in the plants., Not all the plants, some of them. These are factors that could have been controlled by the companies and were not. Now they are in looking for a bail out. As far as I am '858 .,. --

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 385 NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: concerned,there should be no bail out. Any monies that go into these large companies, Nickerson's, the Lake Group and Fishery Products and John Penney and Sons, must only go in when we clearly understand that down the road they are never going to come back looking for government hand­ outs, And we are not going to put good money in a~ter bad so that these companies carry on doing the same bad old things, ineffiencies · and otherwise.

We have to make sure as a Province, and that is the reason why it is · important- the next three or four days are so crucial for Burin, are so crucial for Grand Bank, so crucial for St. Lawrence, so crucial for Ramea, so crucial for liarbour Breton, and Gaultois, and Fermeuse, and even St. Anthony, because there is no final . decision made on St. Anthony yet, as of the last few days.

We have to make a decision which we are convinced in our milmS as the government here, in working with the federal government, and they have agreed they are going to be involved because of the massive funds required, we are going to make sure when we make a decision here, that this government is going to make a. decision for the benefit of everyone living in Newfoundland,in all the respective communities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 859

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 386 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, What a col,oss .al. bluff. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows full well that the plants that are closed at t!).e present time in thi~ Province have nothing to do with the nose and tai.l of tb .e Grand Banks. It has to do with the bon. gentleman's nose and tail not the nose and tail of the Gl;and Banl:c.s. Mr. Speaker, this is the time of year when the offshore dragger fleet should be out fishing and evex¥ plant in this Province should be working at maximum capacity. Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman has the fa.ce and the gall- to stand in this · House and say it .i:s the federal responsib.i_lity to restructure the processing sector of th.e fishing indu~try in this Province. The process ·i.ng secto:t" is · a. p;t:"ovincia .l responsibility. It comes under provincial jurisdiction. And the hon. gentleman can talk about :f;oreign. dragge .rs, the nose and tail of the Grand Banks all he wants, the reason thes ·e plants are closed at the present tinJe is because this administration had no plans: for the f;is ·her¥• They have ·allowed the fishery to deteriorate.

All they have had ,on their minds is · oil .i:n the last several ye .a:x::s. They have igno:x;ed every other industry · in this .· Provin .c;:e. They have allowed the fishery to go down - our most ba,s:i: .c industry. They have a,llm'l.ed .i:.t to deteriorate to tbe . extent now · ~re we have majo .r fi .~h. Plant&' closed at the. most crucial time of the y~ar when they should ~e operating, and the draggers should be out fishi .ng.

And the han .• gentleman sta,nds . up in thi.s House :j:n view- of people in . the gallery, a,nd in view of a,ll the . members in thi .s H..ouse, and ma,kes the most ridiculous and outla .ndi.sh. sta,tements a,bout how Ottawa should deal wi.th these problems, dea .J.. with. these matters. l1r, Spea,ker, Otta .wa, looks · at 860

"' March 16, 1983 · Tape No. 386 so - 2 MR. NEARY: Newfoundland from the vantage point of Wellington Street. Only the ot.l'ler day \~e were - well, as a matter of fact 1 today in this House the Government House Leade~ (~. Marshall) told us that Newfoundland should be managing the offshore oil resources because th~y are closer to the resources than anybody else. And now 86 1

March 16, 1983 Tape 387 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: we have another minister contradicting that philosophy, that principle, and standing and telling us that Ottawa should resolve the problem. I have no doubt at all, Mr. Speaker, that Ottawa will do everything it c~n to try and get these plants back in operation. MR. TOBIN: But if they do not. MR. NEARY: But if they do not, Mr.

Speaker, therein lies- that is the question, the key question, if they do not,what is this government going to do to make sure that Burin reopens, that Fer.w~use reopens, that Gaultois reopens, that Ramea reopens, that Harbour Brenton reopens, that Grand Bank does not close? It is the responsibility of this government to tell the people in these communities and the people in this Province and to tell this House what plans they have, what contingency plans they have to deal with that emergency situation if it arises?

So we are very disappointed that the minister did not stand in his place in the House this afternoon,when he had an opportunity,and tell the House what plans they have to deal with these situations. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in this House ~esterday,the fight in Burin is just not to save the fish plant in Burin, it is just not to save the community of Burin, the fight in Burin is to save a way of life in this Province, a tradition, a heritage that is built around the fishery. That is what the fight is all about, Mr. _ Speaker.

And han. gentlemen opposite would love to be able to pi't one community against the other. We hear the member ·f9r Burin -Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) at it every day in this House. Thirty times yesterday he had to be brought to order by the Speaker, spending his time interrupting the Speakers and being rude and nasty instead of standing up in 862 ---

March 16, 1983 Tape 387 PK - 2 ~1R. NEARY: this House, standing up for his constituents, standing up for the people on the Burin Peninsula. MR. STAGG: MR . NEARY: That is what he was doing. That is what he was not doing? He was just doing the contrary. Mr . Speaker, he was just doing the opposite. Mr . Speaker, if members on that side of the House, if members on the government side who are supporting the government have the courage of their 863 ·--

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 388 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: have the courage to go against the administration, not toe the Party line, they would stand in this House and say, 'Look, Mr. Minister of Fisheries (_Mr. Morgan)_ and Mr. Premier and my colleagues in the Cabinet, if you do not take the position that these plants, everyone of them will reopen, then you are going to have trouble with .. me; I am moving over across,down there in the corner,or I am going _to lash out against you, I am going to speak out agains ·t you' • They cannot talk out of both corners of their mouths. And that is what they are doing, Mr.

Speaker~ They lay back on their oars all along and they said, 'Kirby has the answer. .Kirby is going to solve our prob1erns~ Mr. Speaker, they were misleading the peop1e. MR. MATTHEWS: (Jnaudible)_ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I have order from the member for Grand Bank (.Mr. Matth_ews·L? Coul.d you get the han. gentleman to restrain himself? MR. SPEAKER (;1cNicholas 1: Order 1 please! MR. NEARY: They were misleadi.ng th .e people, Mr. Speaker, they were talking · out of bath corne .rs of tl}e;i:r mouths when they were saying we are going to wait for the Kirby Task Force Report.

I was · in Burin and I ,Jllet with . the Concerned Citizens Committee and I met with. th .e picketers -down th~re. And I' was in Rall)ea a.nd I. was in l"errneus-e and I was in Grand Bank,and every place I· went I warned the. peop.J,.e to whom I spoke not to pay any attention to th.e s.weet talk about Kirby going to solve everything. All the administration here was doing was . 'letting themselves off the hook, Mr. Speaker. They were misleading and deceiving the people in these communities. And, Mr· Speak.er, tqe only thing th .a t politicians · understand 1 es·pecially the goverrunent in power, i.s· pressure.

That is the only thing 864

·"- March 16, 1983 Tape No. 388 SO - 2 MR. NEARY'~ they understand. And I am proud to say that I went to Burin and I went to Ramea and I went to th.ese other places wh.ere people are fighting for their rights. But I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that this administration and the members for these districts are letting their constituents down. We on this side of the House have taken the position, and r state it again categorically - SOME HON. MEMBERS ~ Oh, oh.. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I happened to -be in the hall, seated righ.t across ~rom tha hon. gent~~an, in Fermeuse when I heard the hon. gentleman~s wishy~waShy hanjling of that situation in Fermeuse. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Qh., oh:. MR. NEARY: If I.' was the bon. gentlema,n I would hang my head in shame. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh., oh.. MR. NEARY: r:: say, Mr . Speaker, that every fish. plant MR. SPEAKER '(McNicholasl: Order, please! MR .• · DAWE::· Sey~t~~~~~P-oint aeven and going up.

As a matter of fa,ct, my c;gl.J...e.ague to my :j:;~Q.t . _., ·- .. -.- ;".., ... go more votes, a bigger majority than al,1 of you put .t.ogetl)er, 865 :.e ·--

March 16, 1983 Tape No . 389 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEAR Y: That is all they are concerned about, that is all they are interested in, their ego. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I hoDe, Mr. Speaker, that the people in th'e gallery can see what happens here day in and day out. I hope they can see the ego trips. MR. POWER: I was in the same hall when you were told off by the leader of the fishermensr union for making those l~ttle mistakes. That did not happen to me at that meeting. MR. TULK: MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: He changed his mind though, did he not? Ricky told him off, did he? Mr.

Speaker, I will let that go because I do not want to be sidetracked. AN HON. MEMBER: Because it is true. MR. NEARY: It is not true. I do not want to be sidetracked by rabbits, Mr. Speaker. We are after bigger game than that. The hon. gentleman was embarrassed by the round of applause that I got in that hall that night. That is why the hon. gentleman is smarting. Mr. Speaker, let me get back to the topic under discussion. I underst~nd the Premier, yesterday, when he went to Ottawa, one of the matters that he would be dealing with is· restructuring.

I am told the meeting was to take place in Ottawa on the 15th or 16th at the First Ministers Conference, that restructuring was on the agenda. Now, Mr. Speaker, we still do not know what input, what plans , the ·Prem ~ ~r of this Province has laid on the table -in Ottawa as far as restructuring is concerned. All we know is this: That he told -Mr. De Bane at a meeting a few weeks ago that he was against nationalization. That is all we know about the plans of the administration. We are told 866 _,

Ma .rch 16, 1983 Tape No. 389 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY : that restructuring means one of two or three options. It will mean one Nova Scotia compa~y one Newfoundland company,or one Nova Scotia company two Newfoundland companies,a combination of three or four companies they have been playing around with. They have two or three options. But, Mr. Speaker .. we reject one Newfoundland company a~d one Nova Scotia company on this side of the House. r.m. TOBIN: What are you supporting. MR. NEARY: What am I supporting?

I will tell you what I.am supporting, I am supporting the reopening of these plants and the closing of ~o more plants. As a matter of f.act, Mr. Speaker, I would go as far as to say this, that never again in this Province should Scotia Square up in Toronto be allowed to dictate what plants in Newfoundland sbay open and what plants close. . we had the West Country Merchants here in the old days; . 867

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 390 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: the West Country ~*erchants called the shots,now Scotia Square up in Toronto is calling the shots. I would bring legislation before this House, Mr. Speaker, that would forbid banks, or financial institutions, f~om foreclosing on fish plants that affect whole regions of this Province, that affect whole communities in this Province. I would oar that forever. Never again would I allow it without providing an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Give the authority to the judge to decide whether or not these companies, these banks, can get away with this kind of nonsense. statement - MR. TOBIN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I heard a Tell us where you stand. No, you do not have to ask me where I stand, but I ask the hon. gentleman where he stands, and the hon. mem0er for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) where he stands. They are talking out of both corners of their mouths. That is what they are doing. And they are not fooling the people. If they think they are conning or fooling the people they had better think again. MR.

DINN: Have you still got the contracts for Bell Island? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this government has no plan of action, no plan of action. And I am standing four square behind the people in Burin, and Fermeuse, and Grand Bank - MR. DINN: You did that for the people of Bell Island too with the contracts. 868

March 16; 1983 Tape No. 390 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: - and Ramea, and I repeat what I said, that as far as we are concerned eyery plant must reopen. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : A point of order, the hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: I just wanted to point out to the House that the hon. gentleman changes his mind qui.te often. About three months ago he stood in the Rouse and said, "Let the companies go bankrupt." MR. POWER: But-now they_have taken a position. Now they have got a position. They have the first position they have had in ten years. MR.

MORGAN: go bankrupt," were the words. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKE"R: MR. NEARY: That is right, "Let them Oh, oh~ May I carry on, Mr. Speaker? There is no point of order. Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of public record what I said. I said let Nickerson's go bankrupt. Let them go bankrupt, it would not affect Newfoundland that much. They only have a handful of plants in Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.· NEARY: But, Mr • . Speaker, r said it is a different matter - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: - it is a different matter with Fishery Products - MR.

MORGAN: There are some people in the -·--~ ~ - --- galleries this afternoon. You are playing to the galleries. You say one thing one day and another thing the next. 869

March 16, 1983 MR. NEARY: restore order? MR. SPEAKER (.McNi cholas) : SOME KON. MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER: MR . NEARY: Tape No . 390 NM- 3 Mr . SpeaJ<e r, could you Order, please ! Order, please! Oh, oh. ! Order , ple ase! Thank you, Mr . Speaker for restraining hon . gentlemen opposite and restoring order to the Bouse . ) 870

March 16, 1983 Tape 391 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: They cannot stand criticism, they cannot stand the truth when they hear it. Everybody in this Province knows that this administration have failed miserably when it comes to providing a master plan for the development of the fishery in this Province. They have let the people down. MR. MORGAN: That is the reason why Kirby - MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman can forget all about Lady Kirby. The hon. gentleman is the one who is sitting in the hot seat. Mr.

Speaker, I am told that Ottawa will provide $500 million, a half a billion dollars to restructure the fishery in Atlantic Canada but unfortunately there is no tag put on that half billion dollars to say where it is going to be spent, but this government here, the administration here, will have input in that. And I want to hear the hon. gentleman now stand up and categorically state something that I just said a few minutes ago, that as far as we are concerned on "this side of the House, every fish plant that is closed - MR. MORGAN: They have "got the money and they will call the tune . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, now the hon. gentleman is changing his tune again. 'They have got the money.' Yo~ can find $1 million for an obsolete radar station down in Shoe Cove. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you support that? MR. NEARY: No, I do not support it. Mr. Speaker, I support Burin, St. Lawrence, Gaultois, Ramea, Grand Bank, Harbour Breton, Fermeuse, and I think the priority is to get the fishery back on its feet, 871

March 16, 1983 Tape 391 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: not waste your taxpayer money on a foolish tracking statiori down in Shoe Cove that is obsolete. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 572

March 16,1983 Tape No. 392 ah-1 MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) made a statement the other day. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, ·oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously they cannot take it. If I can get over to that public meeting at Brother Rice High School tonight I will be there. I am not sure if I can make it. But wherever there is a meeting being held in this Province about the fishery, about the fish plants that· are closed, getting them reopened, if I can get there I will be there. And I guarantee you that when I leave there will be no doubt in anybody's mind where I stand as far as Burin and St.

Lawrence and Grand Bank and the other communities are concerned, Gaultois and Ramea .. And, Mr. Speaker, I hope that the hon gentleman and his boss, the Premier, will give up , abandon the idea of trying to con the people in these communities. They know the difference, Mr.Speaker. They know that Ottawa can only do what it can do. MR.TOBIN: Tell us what you want them to do. MR.NEARY: ·ottawa has to be asked. MR.MORGAN: They have a half billion dollars so he says. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I have order on the other side? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, what should happen is this, that the administration here should have gone to Ottawa with a plan and say, 'Look, here is our plan for the restructuring of the processingsector'. MR. MORGAN: You would not know about it. And do you know the reason why? Because (Inaudible) do not trust you. It is as simple as that. 873

March 16,1983 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): MR. NEARY: should be the - MR.MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: Tape No. 392 ah-2 Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the situation You are a lost cause. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the procedure should be the reverse of what it is at the present time. The minister and the Premier should be going to Ottawa and laying their plans on the table and saying, "Here i.t is, this is what we want. Will you help us to implement these plans financially or with expertise?" Instead of tha·t the Premier goes up and says - MR. MORGAN: The less you know the better.

MR.NEARY: The Premier laid no plans on the House, all he said was that we are against nationalization. I am sorry to hear that. I am sorry to hear that the han. gentleman is a private enterpriser a private entrepreneur, because, Mr.Speaker, the solution to these fish plants is not the same in every community. The solution for Burin may not be the same as the one in Ramea/and the one in Ramea may not be the same as the one in Fermeuse. You are going to have to use different combinations. And the people down in Burin say, give us the plant and give us the draggers and we will operate it.

There is no problem down there with productivity. They had the best record , I am told, of productivity in Newfoundland. And so the han. gentleman can spout off all he wants about low productivity. What about Ramea? MR.MORGAN: He is your buddy, not mine. 874

March 16, 1983 Tape 393 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! Order, please! The han. member's time has ela:;>sed. MR. NE.1'-.RY: By leave, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No way! No way! MR. SPEAKER: Leave is not granted. The han. member for Twillingate. SOME HON. MEI-1BERS : Hear, hear! MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with great interest to the debate on the Private Member's Bill, a bill which is politically as well as partially inaccurate. However, Mr. Speaker, the han. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) has touched up on~ tlrings which have concerned this House for sometime now.

All han. members reali~e the present economic difficulties being experienced by our fishing industry, yet, Mr. Speaker, the best that the Opposition has had to offer during this debate has been an attack upon the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan),- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MRS. REID: a political speech from beginning to end from the hen. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), in which he seemed confused between the ~ransportation Department and the Department of Fisheries, and other members opposite failed to offer one single suggestion or opinion on how to chart the future course in our fishing indu~try.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MRS. REID: One member opposit~ seemed irritated that our hard-working Minister of Fisheries travelled too much promoting our fish products and seeking expanded markets, while another said that not enough is being done to advertise the quality of fish, which , Mr. Speaker, has come a long way,to the point wt-ere we have met and surpassed 8 7~ ·' a.J

March 16, 1983 Tape 393 PK - 2 MRS. REID: our major competitors. Mr. Speaker, if we are to compete internationally,it is vital that the quality of our fish is second to none. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. REID: As my colleague from Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) indicated in his speech last week, this realization abroad is gaining strength thanks,to a large degree,to the continuing efforts of the Provincial Department of Fisheries. MR. OOYLE: True! True! Very true! MRS.

REID: There must, however, be a concerted effort to keep abreast of new technology and experimentation , and to adapt to the most modern product development. Where cod was once the single fish species prosecuted, and processing involved drying and salting,today even edible species in our waters ~s now sought and processing is as wide and varied as the fish caught. · , Mr. Speaker, I have always maintained the Province's need to fully process our fish resource rather than export the bulk of our landings in a raw form.

With gradual reduction in foreign fishing off our coast and the projected improvement in the resource over the next few years, Newfoundland will undoubtedly have the opport~ity and po~ential to become the major \<Orld supplier of fish. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 876

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 394 JV- l MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker the province can only do so much to bring about this realization. As we have just heard from the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan~ as he stated a fewminutes ago, we have contributed $24 million to aid fish plants around this province. We have -had a loud and logical voice ~egarding the future direction fishery policies should take. We have been aggressive in improving and promoting fish products. I.n our sphere of -fisheries jurisdiction, we have done our homework. SOME HON. MEMB-ERS : Hear! Hear~ MRS. REID: Mr.

Speaker, it is one thing to control the land based fish plants but, hoNever, until this Province has a major say in the quota allocations that ensures the availability of fish around our coast, then our fishery is destined to be managed from Ottawa on a day by day basis. Mr. Speaker,we need to have cooperation between Federal and Provincial fishery officials. Indeed, I believe that thei.:r spirit has been kindled and I e~lyhope that in the months ahead we will see some tangible and rewarding results. To this end, Mr. Speaker, I look forward to the signing of the long awaited Rural Development agreement. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear~ Hear~ MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker, continuing delays on the part of the Federal Government is very detrimental to our many Deve -lopment Associations who work closely and so hard with local fisheries groups and community groups. Mr. Speaker, sitting in the gallery today is a delegation from the Development Association in my district of Twilling .ate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear~ 877

March 16, 1983 Tape No . 394 JV- 1 .MRS . REID: Those are a group of hard-working individuals who are vol'Unteering their valuable time in an effort to improve the living conditions in communities they represent. The fishery is a ~jor concern of theirs. And why? Because it not only means the ~ivelibood of their own families but t.he livelihood of allnost every family in Twillingate district. The people from Bridgeport, Moreton's Harbour, Whale 's Gulch, Herring Neck, Cottlesville,Ourrell 's, Crow Head and every other community and nook and crannie on Twill .ingate and New World Island depend on the fishery .

I.t means bread and butter on their tables, it means clothes on their children's backs and it also means money to 878

March 16, 1983 Tape 395 EC - 1 MRS. REID: provide their children with a future education. Yes, Mr. Speaker, my people, my district depends largely on the fishery, so much so that it is too serious a matter to be spoken of lightly~ it is too important a subject to be kicked around as a political football. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Truer words were never spoken. MRS. REID: Mr. Speaker, Twillingate district has had a long and distinguished involvement in the seal fishery or seal hunt.

I would like to add a few words on the ongoing controversy which threatens the very existence of this year's seal hunt. Mr. Speaker, the unfortunate decision by the European community is the accumulation of years of emotional protest by Greenpeace and other ill-informed environmental groups who have used the seal hunt issue as their annual fund raising campaign. Mr. Speaker, this year's seal hunt is, at its best, uncertain~ however, it must be stated that both levels of government are committed to the continu­ ation of the seal hunt.

I am hopeful ·that assistance will be forthcoming and that new markets will be agressively sought in the Far East and Eastern European community. Strong measures must also be adopted with regard to the right·of the EEC fishing fleets to operate in Newfoundland waters. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the EEC cannot have it both ways. They cannot reasonably expect Canada to accept a most unreasonable and detrimental decision without being penalized in the strongest possible manner. Mr. Speaker, we do not pursue the seal hunt just for the fun and thrill of the kill. 879

March 16, 1983 Tape 395 EC - 2 MRS. REID: The people of our Province are a marine cu ltu re, a culture dependent on the sea for their live lihood and existence. Yes, Mr. Speaker, they depend upon the sea for their livelihood and existence . Like the farmers in our Pra~rie Provinces who depend on farming the land , our dairymen for raising cattle or fruit growers for growing fruit, our people in Ne wfoundland depend upon the seal for a living. 88 0

March 16, 1983 Tape 'No. 396 NM- 1 MRS. REID: ~any people in Twillingate district depend on the seal fishery for a living. Yes, that is true. Many people in my district depend upon the seal fish.ery for a living, to provide their families with the necessities of life. The necessities of life, Mr. Speaker, are not fur coats, not trips to the sunny South, or Caribbean cruises, but the necessities of life are bread and butter for their tables. The fishermen from my district, Mr.

Speaker, the Troakes, and the Legges, the Watermans, the Cannings, the Ansteys are not interested in bleeding money from some wealthy senile group of so-called conservationists in order to cruise around Panama during .the Winter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. REID: No, Mr. Speaker, our fishermen are interested only in providing a clean, decent livelihood for their families. AN HON. MEMBER: MRS. REID: to be. Are they senile? Senile, yes. They have Long after the Sea Shepherd, Mr. Speaker, has vanished off our coastline,and the Brian Davies and the Paul Watsons have become functionally invisible - MR.

TOBIN: And the Steve Nearys. MR..<:; • RETD : - I hope and trust that our Newfoundland people will still be persecuting a time­ honoured and proud occupation. SOME' HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MRS·. REID: Mr. Speaker, to conclude my 881

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 396 NM- 2 MRS. REID: brief remarks, I would simply say that any success that our fishery has experienced has been in spite of, rather than because of,federal involvement. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR~. REID: As licencing policies simply have not worked, and without this Province having some say in how our major resource is developed and managec in the future, then the opportunity presented to us to become number one w-orldwide will not be. And it is a serious matter, Mr. Speaker, even if the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulkl does not think so. SOME _RON ; MEMBERS : ·Hear , hear! MRS.

REID: AN RON. MEMBER: Did I hear you say it was - I think so. MR. DOYLE: Continue on . MRS • REID: Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) saw fit to stoop to personal attack in his motion. And it is unfortunate that the quality of debate on this vital issue from members opposite has been so confused and irrelevant. I am hopeful, Mr. Speaker, that more meaningful debate will follow when my colleague from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin} presents his important motion next week. support this motion. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot Hear, hear! 882 ,_

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 397 MJ - l MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Avlward) : The hon. the member for Port a~ Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the member for Twillingate (Mrs. Reid) that I was impressed with the way s~e delivered her speech. I thought it was a mas~ presentation although, of course, I disag~ee with the tack and the comments and the way that she feels and her philosophy on the fishery. MR. SPEAK3.R: Order, please! Before the hon. member reaches the core of his speech here today, I wonder if I could interrupt him for one minute.

I would like to welcome to the galleries Mayor Lou Bailey an~ a delegation from the district of Burin - Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I did not stand here tod~y to follow debate on the motion as it has been flowing back and forth on both sides of the House. MR. G. TOBIN: {Inaudible) • MR. S. NEARY: Do not be rude. You were not sent in here for that. Do not be ignorant now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Thirty t'imes yesterday he interrupted me,and had to be called to order.

MR. HODDER: The member over in the other corner, Mr. Speaker, has been losing his - MR. TOBIN: And I will continue to be that way as long as the Opposition{inaudible) the people of Burin {inaudible). 883

March 16, 1983 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 397 MJ - 2 Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! I would like to remind members on both sides of the House that the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has the right to be heard in silence. The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I do not take kindly to the fact that the member for Burin -Placentia ~est (Mr. Tobin) when I stand to speak makes such an ass of himself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. J. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Fisher~es. MR.

MORGAN: Oh, oh! I A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants to take

part in debate without interruption, why is he now trying to antagonize hon. gentlemen on this size of the House of Assembly to rebut what he is saying?• If he wants to be heard in silence, why not stop antagoaizing members on this side of the House? MR. NEARY: order. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to that point of To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman does not know any more about the rules of the House than he knows about the fishery. That is just an indication, Mr. Speaker, of how ignorant the hon. gentleman is of the rules of this 884

.... March 16, 1983 Tape No. 397 IB-3 ·MR. NEARY: House. It was not a point of .order, ~- Speaker. At most it wa~ only a difference of opinion between two members, even if it was that,and I doubt very much if it was that. It WitS just a deliberate interruption to stall for time, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the Chair to direct members not to he making flimsy and frivolous points of order. MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARP) : of order. MR. HODDER: O:tder, please! I rule that there was no point The hon. member for Port au Port. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I wanted to take a few minutes just to talk about the tragedy that was announced here in the House of Assembly yesterday that has happened in my own district, the district of Port au Port. 885

March 16, 1983 Tape No. 398 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, and I address those remarks to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), is it not possible when fish companies come into this Province that there be some code of ethics under which they operate and some . code or rulea and regulations under which . th .ey ann .ounce that they · are go.i,ng to leave twenty or thirty co~unities without sery~ces. When National Sea phoned me on Frida ¥ ~orning to te~l me that they would not be coming back to the district in the coming year 1 they did so two weeks · before th.e fish .ing season was started. Mr.

Speaker, there are some twenty · communities, small communities to be sure, but there are some twenty communities whose livelihood de :pended on the National Sea operation. Why did they do it, Mr. Speaker?

I think that National Sea decided that they would pull out at the last moment hoping that it would throw- the administration into a tail spin that no one would be ae.le. to get anybody very quickly and tha,t they wo.ulcl th.en :Oe able to come in and take out the lobster - the Port au Port area is one of the three .large lobster fishing areas in the area - and as · well take out the h.eri:ing and then - -· leave the fishermen alone and let the plant close after that and take the profits froll,) the Q,:r;e.a .. :r: do not think., ·Mr. f'i:r;>e .aker, ·that we should put up with that kind of tactics by fish . companies in this Province.

I" think that somehow or other we have to come to grips. There are many corporate citizens · in this Province, but it seems to me that the fish companies seem to be the . ones whq jus ·t do not care one way or the other. They are still corporate pirates. And the type of action that took place·! 886

March 16,1983 Tape No. 399 ah-1 MR.HODDER: I mean, there have been plan~s closed in this Province, we have been listening to plant closures and shutdowns for the past six or eight months, but in this case they pulled out two weeks before the fishing season started - and we have had very seasonal weather over there this year- to pull out two weeks before the season started I think is totally unacceptable and I think that SOTiehm'l or other the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan), "rho does have the power, should make National Sea know that this is not acceptable behaviour for fish companies _who are doing business in this Province . Because, Mr. Speaker, when I say that we have 75 per cent unemployment I am going on the low side rather than the high side. In 1975 there was a survey done in the Port au Port area and it showed that there was 40 per cent unemployment in the Summertime, the high unemployment time, and 60 per cent unemployment in the Wintertimerfor at that particular time the linerboard mill was operating.

Since that time many of the people who work away, who work on the Mainland, who work seasonally in Nova Scotia in the woods camps and who work on the scallop boats in Nova Scotia, all of these people are having trouble finding employment on the Mainland and they are home, they are not coming home, they are home. I walked into one community a couple of weeks ago and I said, "Who is working here?" and the fellow says, "There are only two people working in this community." . He said two people in the whole community. The rest of them were on unemployment insurance or on social assistance. Now, Mr.Speaker, the 887

March 16,1983 Tape No . 399 ah -2 MR .RODDER : loss of eighty jobs in that area - and these eighty jobs are sprinkled throughout the twenty communitie s , and some communities will suffer more than othe~s - but the loss of eighty jobs in that particular area with the type of unemployment that we have,is equivalent to the loss of six or seven hnndred jobs in a larger area like St . John's or Corner Brook or Grand Falls. It is a massive blow to the area . But what I want to say to the minister is that I feel that there must be some way that we can stop this sort of thing from happening . BBB

March 16, 1983 Tape 400 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, this is a blow which has come at a time when the fishing season is starting. There is no time to get someone in place. We will try, but we have perhaps 200 fishermen and 70 to 80 plant workers - there were 80 on the union rolls last year - 70 to 80 plant workers who are with­ out work and fishermen who do not know where they will sell their species. They will have no trouble getting rid of their lobsters, _ there is no doubt about that. The fish companies know where they can make their money. And I would say something else.

National Sea said last year that they 1ost $250,000 in that particular plant but, Mr. Speaker, I would like. to know who is doing their counting. I can start a business anywhere and lose $250,000 very easily if I do not care for that business, but when I am diverting products from that particular plant into other plants that I might own in either Burgee or in the Bay of Islands or elsewhere in Newfoundland, when I am diverting groundfish and herring and taking it right from that particular area and doing.the pickling and processing in other areas, then I am sure that paper losses can be very deceiving.

I think that goes for all the fish companies in this Province; I think we have always been ripped off on lobster prices. We have been ripped off in Port au Port, we are being ripped off on the Northern Peninsula and we are being ripped off by the fish companies on lobster prices everywhere across the Province. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe that that particular plant, if any one of us in this House of Assembly, if you yourself, Mr. Speaker, had - and perhaps you did; 889

March 16, 1983 Tape 400 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: I do not know - had the expertise and knew about the fishing industry, that that could be a very, ve