VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00P.M- 6:00P.M. THURSDAY, DECEMBER l3, 1979 NO. 50 .· :

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1638 SD - 1 The House met at 3:00 P. i1. 1-:r. Speaker in the Chair. I'll<. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! ORAL QUEST IONS !ffi. SPEAKER: The hen . Leader of the Opposition. :<IR. D. JAHIES0:-1: Mr. Speaker, I saw the hen. ~~e Miniscer of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) somewhere in the precinct3. I will wait,with your indulgence,until ne gets in his place. MR. SPEAKER: :·IR. S. NEARY: The hen, member for LaPoile. Well, I would like to ask a question to the Minister of Finance 1 teo, but I have one for the 1-linister of Tourism (Mr. c. Power) so I will go ahead and ask that.

Would ~~e minister tell us what sort of an operation his department has over in North S~·dne1', what sort of an infonnation service they provide in :-<orth Sydney? MR. SPEAKBR: The hon, l1inister of Tourism, P~creation and Culture. MR. C. POWER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not exactly sure what ~'le hen. gentleman means when he says, "The operation we have in North sydneyq. During the Summer months we obviously have tourist information people there who give a great deal of infonuation to the travelling public as to what things are available in Newfoundla!1d for that given tourist season.

I am not actually sure whether he means what is there today or what was there during the peak tourist season during the Summer. Can you clar:i.fy which one you mean? !1R. s. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. 1-IR. S. NEARY: I will be glad to clarify, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the hen. gentleman how many permanent employees this government, his department , ha:> in North Sydney and how many seasonal workers the hen. gentleman's department has in North Sydney? 4626 .:. .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1838 .so - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. MR. C. POWER: I will have to take the matter of how many permanent ernFloyees we have there a~d how many seasonal employees i~ given amounts under advisement. ~e also have certain other persons permanently stationed in both PEI and in different parts of Nova Scotia to make sure that our literature on Newfoundland is distributed fully to persons travelling to Newfoundland during ~~e Summer months. I will be glad to get the information for the member tomorrow if he wishes. MR. S. NEARY: :.!R.

SPEAKER: LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. member for can the han. gentleman tell rne then if the employees that are paid from the Public Treasury of this Province in North Sydney and other places that the hon. mir~st2r mentioned, can the hon. gentleman tell me if these people are ~ewfoundlanders or non-Newfoundlanders? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~~nister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. MR. C.

POWER: ~he response to that question is obviously most of the persons·and all of the persons that I am aware of who are hired during the St.mvner months are i~ewfoundland students who go to Newfoundland institutions and who are residents of Newfoundland. If there are any pe.rmanent persons who may have been hired by the Department of Tourism• and now perceive tl1eir residence to ·be in Nova Scotia 1then I can certainly check on that for the member. As far as I am concerned and as far as I realize ,all the persor~ 4627

L:ece!'ter 13, 197'? Tape :<o. 123:3 ana t-'le TI1'r.es COtre frorr. r.y office the first of the Sur.rrer for hirincr anc placing in Nova Scotia and in the office in P .E. I. , then those pe.rsons are inceed NewfounC:land stuC.ents who go to school at Newfounc'land institutions. ;q~.. S. ~lEARY : 1- final SUI'F ler-entcr.J, ~ir.. Sr:-ea~er .. :·IP .• SPI:l'J'..LR (SP'Y.S): r- final supplerentary, the non.. n·erLer for LaFoile. ~·r... ::. NEJPY: ~~r. Speaker, I hate to hav~ to differ ll>it...~ the hon. gent leo an.

The e.n;_:;loyees in :lorth syc:ney a""e tlova Scotians, r.ot :-;ewfounclanders, and that is •,;hy I am asking the :hon. s:entleran a. question. I wish I could asl~ the :'-!inister of Lands and Forests (>:r. ,V,or~an) a similar ~uestion l:;ecause he has ell'ployees over in liorth .SyU:.ey, anirc.l ir:s_recto:rs 1 who ore non-:<ewfouncl;;maers. But : w·ant to ask the hon. r;en tler a.'"~ if t;•ese jol:s are acvertisec fcr,and if they are acvertisec in l:e-.foundlanc Farers or in ~~o~.ra F.cotia ~Ja?ers? l>IB.. BARRY: MR. C.

P()1;~ER: 'l'he fortr .er adr>1inistration hirec therr .• :lc, t':te forN!r ac:rrinist:cation die not :1ire Yes, they die. I beg your pardon 1 they cid not. Order, ?lease! The hen. Minister of Tourisrr. ~1r. Speaker, all I ca.'1 say to t.'lat <:uestL:m is that I ha'le told t.r.e rcer±lar that ::: ~·oulc J:e glac. to take it under ar~vise­ !l'ent. I will tring back the facts as they are facts. ~,11 ::: knm< is tha1; since I :1ave beco~re Minister of Tourisrr. ,.., have hired no persons who an! ·residents of Nova Scotia.

The only persons we have hired are stuc'ents of ~iewfounClanc, who reside in Newfoundland and go to ::.ewfour.dlanO. ir.stitutlions, and ~,;-_o e . !'ind placer-ent ~f jbbs but not only at t:ort:'l :'ydney anc'. at a. point in P.l::.I't and a great nwr:ber of students ~'ho are infori"ation officers on the C! :erries as corre back and forth across the Gul!'.

If there are some ot.'1er persons ~ho were placed t."J.ere sorr.e time ago ei'\ployed by our Ciepartment who a!:'e Nova Scotians, all I can proi!'ise the hen. men:ber and the Eo use is t.'lat I will fine the information for tomorrow and ~ladly bring it back to you. 4628

. ece~'er 13 , 1979 'l'ar.e !'o. 1S3C: !:r . Epeuka:r . am Cissatisfiee •:ith t~ !:on. U".i :ister 's ar..s ~ • ers ai:out e. lo:,· :.ns: ~':e,;e ~ . e La~ e Sho•,; thi s aft e rno c The hen. :linistt!r of ... ou:dsr. . : z . Speal~e:r, ir. t.'lco.t case ! ••i . l h;Jve the ans-.,ers fo r hir this e vening . The hen. t!";e Lea·d-er c~ : . e C~osition .. ~ : :: .

S:l'7aker , r""'.:' ~~st.ion is '.!or t he : ~i~ister of Finan ce. l•'hen h!! t-r o9qht ® .. n :-tis 'ldcc t earlier t:us )'ear, app rc" ir ately five or 1:i;; :-onths a~o . • I ~uess closer to fi -,e rror.ths har. si:- - he made certain s=: rojections with rer:art to,r·a rt!..cularly 1 re ·enue and e~enditt!r-e cut also a nU!"!:er cf ct:1ers 'le ·nq to eo ,..ith the rate -:Jf jot.s, cost of ( etr. <.:ol: .:.ns) :-.as over ~~e :>ast forty~igl:t hours , or if he was .;:ri•.~Y ir.trceuce. d in the . eC.oral :2ucc.,et ,,·il- ca se &ny si~ni:::icar.t chan<;~ i:1 r.':; Yie~ , i.!l his as forecasts as p resence<! to this nouse some mont:hs ago? 'The c :.. ~inis t e r of :'ina.'1ce . ~-r.

Spe~ e r, in terrr.s of ;..eL~CJ p-ri · .. ,-y to \\hat was to i:e in the ~eeeral 4629 :. . l .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1840 NM- 1 DR. J. COLLINS: budget 1 I certainly was not and I do not know if anyone else was but I certainly was not. We had had some discussions with the federal minister some months ago in association with other finance ministers from the Atlantic area and we put forward certain general points at that time and he responded in certain general ways. But certainly there was nothing in that or subsequently that would suggest that he had been passing on ar.y detailed or even approximate information of what would be in the budget.

In terms of the projections, at this point in time 1 there are - the officials in the Department of Finance are still working on the information that is contained in the Budget Speech and in the documents that are associated with it and I have been getting some information from them. Up to this point in time there does not seem to be anything that would significantly alter those projections, but on the other hand our study really has not been completed at this date. MR. SPEl\KER (Simms): Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary, the han.

Leader of the Just to make the record straight, I was not obviously referring to anything such as a budget leak. I was merely referring to the fact that we have known for some time that a large increase in energy pricing was - and I ~~ought perhaps something might have been done ahead of time on certain assumptions. But I '~ill . set that aside.

The question that I have for the hon. the Minister of Finance is this, when he says that there is not likely to be any signi~~cant cha~ge, to quote the Premier's phrase of yesterday, "Off the top of my head, I would expect that his officials will discover that the return,for instance,from the sales tax may be significantly higher than anticipated in view of the unfortunate increase in the cost of living." And what I would like to ask the hon. the Minister of 4630 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1840 N.'! - 2 DR. J.

COLLINS' Finance in this glorioUB Christ:lllas Season i£ he would not ~ft~nk curing these next days when he is assessing this, of some relief for th.e consumers of this !'Yovince which might be described as an inverse indexing , in other words so that the Governme..t'lt of Ne~orfoundlanc "..!Ould not p>:ofi1: unduly f rom the increasing cost of living. \~e have a !:ormula on tlle other side with regard to taxation nationally and would the minister give some consideration to the possibility of relieving the taxpayer in direct ratio to what he anticipa ted eleven per cent was going to t~rn in when he made his budget a:ld ~o:ilal: it is likely to turn in under c=rent circU!I\st.ances ? ·. 463 1

December 13,1979 Tape No. 1841 AH-1 -~'lR.S~: (Sill'.rr.

s) The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLI~TS: Mr. SpeaJ.:er, I think that is a very good suggestion. It is a very astute obersavation, I think. On the ot.l-ler hand, I think the !'!on.

Leader of the Opposition (>rcr.Jamieson) is really talking about a budgetary matter and I would think that this is something that, among many other things, and I do not want to give the '~rong impression, especially to our friends in the press, that I are in any way saying that governrr~nt is going to move in this direction or that I am even going to suggest to government t.~at they move in t.~at direction, I am just saying that this is a suggestion. Ne "ill get many suggestions come forward and I t.."link any useful suggestion like that certainly will he given consideration by us.

MR.JAM~ MR.SPEAYJ:R: the Opposition. ~ESON: A supplementary. A supplementary. The Leader of Mr. Speaker, let me admit ahead of time t..~at this is a convoluted supplementary,but in view of the fa~t that the cost of living is very heavy on tt.ose who are unemployed 1 and in view of the fact that the Come Sy Chance oil refinery has not been reactivated,could ti1e hon. the minister tell us when in that case he might be able to give us s~~e indication of what happened in his discussions with the receivers? MR.SPEAKE'::>.: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, last evening,with the han. the Presicent of the council 1 I met with the receiver, the Vice President of Peat Marwick and also the legal counse"i her~. for ECGD. The four of us met over the Come By Chance situation as it stands at the preserit time and we got an update from the receiver on the proposals, s,.ggestior,s and so forth that they hacl received since our last meeting. All I can say at this point, I think, is that there were some very interesting t..'lings t~1at had come into t..11em that need investigation and ~~-lose investigations are ongoing now. It is much 4632

r:lecell'!:-eT 13 , 1~ ~ !:1!'. o'>L:.r.:s : Tap-a ~io . _Rt,l . 1-! -2 too early yet to 'l'ay v:het.: e.r any c:' these ·ill turn out to l'e $ ~sta.tlt:!.al sig:lificant to the ?.egree · .hat ·-•e ·.•ill b e able to sa_ that there is sot:et.'li:lg verJ lil':ely to come from it. !!eally it is just a "it to ear_y on that yet . tout I ca.'l sa t.'~!!t ~!'.er e are several oror-osals or approac! :es o : sc-me ~reight t.""at a=:e now beinc; loo. ·ec. into . ...:"~. SP..E:I\l<ER: (Simms) un less you wish to yielc . ~!RLING: A s upplementa:cy, !I.e:-. SpeaJ:er .

The hon. member for BonaV::.sta Nort..'l 1 Than.'< yo u, 1-!r. Spea.l<er . ! have a question t.l-tat •.•as !:or the Premier , but in his absence I will ask the acting ~!i. iste r of Fisheries , (. lr . Gouciel . l''ill t'!'le <J.cting .iniste r of F'isherie s tell us the status of tr.e fisherv;en 11hc were emb"rs of t~e Fis~eries Loan 2oare? 4633 :

December 13, 1979 SOME HON. Mn~ERb: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : MR. GOUDIE: Tape 1842 PK - 1 That is a good question. The hen. Minister of Fisheries , Acting. Mr. Speaker, just for c!arification 1the hen. member wants to know what has happened to the fishermen who were members of the Board, is that the question? MR. STIRLING: Have they been fired? Or are they still active or what? MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker. They have not been fired to my knowledge, As the Premier indicated, I do not kr1ow how many time in the House and outside, that the whole thing is under review. Board has not been appointed - The ne~T MR.

STIRLING: Yes,it has been. MR. GOUDIE: I am sorry, yes it has been. Yes. You know, to use the term, 'Have they been fired?' No, they have not. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the Minister of Fisheries, the statement that the Premier gave was on October 31, Cabinet approved the appointment of an interim Board of Directors of ~e Fisheries Loan Board consisting of officials from various government departments under the Chairmanship of Mr. Cliff Russell, and then it gees on with some other things.

On October 31, there is a new Board of Directors appointed, and the fishermen are wondering,the same as the Minister of Fisheries,about where they stand. As far as they ar!:_ concerned, the Board of Directors 1 and the Premier announced on December 10 that as of October 31 a new interim Board of Directors was appointed. The fishermen, and specifically Mr. Arthur Wicks 1 has not hear~ from the Premier except that he has heard a news report - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. member has a question, I take it? MR.

STIRLING: Yes. 1 would like to know what the status is~ and how the minister ties in this interim Board of Directors with the 4634 .·

December 13 , 197 9 !1.r . Stir line;: the Board of uirectors? MR. SPEAKER (Sn!MS) : MR . GOUDIE : Tap.:. 1S42 P!< - 2 status o£ ~~e iisherm~. wr.o are The r~n. Miniscar of Fisheries , Actinq . The interim Board , as l understand 'it , has been put in place as a part of this review process. !c is an interi'lll t is not a final Board. Perhaps ~hee people who had been serving on ~l;e other Board may very well be invited back 1 I do not kno·., that .. But it is a revie'o• process - Mi't. STIRLING: l<!E.. GOODIE: SOME !:!ON • •!EMBERS: MR. SPEAKER : MR . GOUDlE : (Inaudible) . de not know. Pardon me?

Oh , oh! order, please ! To use the ten:\, Mr. Speaker, 'fired of£ the Board' according to tile hon . me~nber for LaPoile (:l.:r. Neary) 1 would ind icat€ that there is a great deal o£ dissatisfaction or t~~t they were crooks or robbers or some connotation - AN liON. MEMBER: !·L'L GOODIE : (Inaudible) . No ,we are noc saying that. into a revie'l- ' process ~oo•here an interim Soard is in place , 4635 We are ~·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1843 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: and that is the status of it right now. In relation to Mr. Wicks and a couple of the other people, I will take notice of that if the - well,whether the han. merr~er agrees or not I will take notice of it - to find out the arlswers thac the · member is looking for and then get back and advise him. MR. NEARY: I heard the announcement here in the House. Get back - HR. SPEAKER (SillUilS): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North, followed by the hon. member for Torngat Mountains, followed by the hon. member for Eagle River, if time permits. MR.

STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Goudie) indicates the current problem. MR. ROBERTS: Indeed it is a current problem. MR. STIRLING: The Bank of ~lontreal has a Board of Directors. When you appoint an interim Board of Directors that throws out the old Board of Directors. You cannot have two boards of directors. ~!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member is entering into debate. The purpose of Question Period is to ask a question. I would direct him to ask a question. MR. STIRLING: Yes, I will, Mr. Speaker.

I was giving some clarification to the Acting Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Goudie), who seems to be as unaware of this problem as the fishermen members of the Board of Directors.

Is the Minister of Fisheries now saying that there-are two boards of directors, that the existing board of directors, which has not met since August some time, and which has been accused of - by innuendo and the very kind of information you have here of mismanagement, and that they have been replaced, and press reports are that they have been replaced, are you now saying that there are in effect two boards of directors, one the interim board of directors, and the other board of 4636 .:.

'December 1.3 , 1979 Tape No. 1.843 NH - 2 MR. STIRLING : directors to wait. who ma~s the decisions in the meantime1 !1R. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen . l·ti.nist.= of Fis!leries (Act ing). l·!R. GOUDIE: Mr . Speaker , in the }'lean time ·the .interm board of di.reccors makes the decisions and there is one board of directors . The hon . member for Eagle River. Mrt. HISCOCX: I would like to direct my ques~on to the Minister of Transportation and CO!III!lun:ications with regard to a lett er I ended up writing · in June with the possibility of setting up an air subsi _dy service betv.·een points St .

Anthony to Labrador South. As of now there is a subsidy for st. John 's to Goose B_ay and then out to the Coast , but. not from St . Anthony . Por example,if you go from St . John ' s to Goose Bay to Cartwright you have to pay $305 . If you go from St. . John's t;O Goos e Bay to Fox Harbo= it i s S347 1 and by having a sub-sidy as ~rado~ Airwavs h~ 'requested of $5,000 per month , you could get to St. Anthony to Fox Barbour for $42 .

We would agree to integration of our Province with the Labrador Hainla."'\d part and t."le Island , coes the minister have any news to repo .rt to this House with regar:i to this subsidy? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Transportatio n and Communications . MR . BRETT: I only say, Mr. Speaker , that that matt·er 'has been ~mder review for the past couple of weeks and I. should .- have an answer for the hon. member probably some time after Christmas . ~l.SCOCK: A supplementary , Mr. Spea.'<er . ! 4637

December 13, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Eagle River. •m. P.n:cco:: Tape No. 1843 NM - 3 A supplementary, the hon. member Where in particular are the students in the · t.-.3in part of the population that will be using it relatively short period, particularly Trade School within a 4638 -·

Dece~her 13, 1979 Tape 1844 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: students, Fisheries, and university of leaving to go back to Labrador. llany of t.'J.ese students were stranded in St. Antnony last year and also many of tnem c?uld not leave. I cannot understand why the students in the ~orth receive a subsidy whezeas students in the South - again, discrimination or whatever - cannot receive it. Does the minister have anythir.g in r.lind to set up some type of temporary travel for the students going across to Labrador South? :1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) The han. the Minister of Tra..'lsportation and Coll1ll\Wlications. HR.

BRETT: The answers to all t.'J.ese questions, Mr. Speaker, •tJere given the hon. member and a group of students from his district who are nm; in the gallery. The hon. member is aware of the fact that I told him I would be happy to look into this. It would be a one-shot deal, of course, if government did decide to do it, and,actually, what they are looking for is some guarantee that they are going to get home for Christ:"as. I think t:1.is a -very reasonable request. T:ae problem that exists is tl1at t.'l,e mail gets priority from St.

Anthony to Southern Labrador and the students are unable to ma~e prior reservations a..'ld go up not certain t:<at they are going to get on the plane. Some of them have even spent Christr.las :lay in hotels iL St. Anthony. And I would be the first to admit that ~~is is certainly undesirable. Most of like to get nome for Christ.'tlas. So I .,.ill cor.sider the request by tile. students. I do not have very much time - the universit:t closes arour:.d the 20th or 21st. AN HON. l1E!o!BER: 11R. BRETT: The Trade School (inaudible).

Well, all ~'J.e children, or the · ;tuaem::; - .. they are not chiidren, I suppose - al.l the students from Southern LaiJJ!auor are being considered in this. I believe mere are fifty or more. I i•ave suggested to then that they get me a list of the students, how many actually want to go home and if they can make it on a certain day, and by ~'le same token, .,..·hat time they would want to come back. So althougn time is running 4639 .·

Dece!!'~Cr 13, 1979 sc - 2 do sou.e~i~g before Chris~mas for them . a.-=<. \'IARRI::11: N .. ~ . S?.£A.~R : (Simms) l'i.,. \\1\RRE N : Tile hoo. the metr.b.e.r for Tornqat. !"!ountai:'ls . 1-1r. SpeMer, my c;:u~s tio:1 also is to the :·1inister of Transportation and Comm~mications . Does t.'le ministe :-• s :iepart.ment intenC to close out t..~e highway depot at No:rt'1 Hes~: River and move i~: '-'P :::o ~appy Valley-Goose Say? :.!?.. S? EAl<E~ : and Cornmunicacions . HR. 8:C::T'!': :•!R. S?l::A..'<ER: Torngat :~.ountains . MR. liArtP.E:•I: T:'1e hon . the :Ur.ls~er of Tra.'1spor::acic~ "Xes , !1r .

Speaker . ;. s upplerrentarJ , Mr . Sp.:>ai<er. A supplemantary , t...'le ;lo·n . the member !"or Wit.~ respect. t:o t:he :~ oving of tl:'.is depot , could che miniscer outiine briefl y ~he rationale behi nd such a move? 46 40

r:ece:::.er 13, 1979 ~:E. S?Ll>..:::ER: (SI!'JCS) an<:! Con.rr.unications. 1 LR. C. :SFET':': That is a sr.-·art aled: question. There was vanCalisn in your Cistrict. •'1!!:". S~ea:,.;.er, ~'-"le reaso!l for n1oving t:--te depot £roro !<orth \~est River to EaPr>Y \"alley is sirr..~=ly t!-!at I gucs~ 'tt'"1e greater concentr.t.tion of· Fopulotion is in fact in the H<".PPY Valley/Goose Eay area.

This does not !"ean t:•at L":ere ,•i.i.l l:e 2..'lY less service. 't'c have discus seC: t!1is I".atter wit~ t :1e councils - I thir-"- it is right to say councils, looth sic"es cf tJ-.e ri v~r - ..-e have cliscusseG the matter "Y.·it1, them and ,.:e have assured them the..t we will not 1aove the cepot until s1:ch tir.e as the briC:qe is rec.cy :for v-ehicular and pedestrian traffic. But they are aware of t."lat ar.d I eo not think they otject t-hat much. :?-. finc;l su;;pler::ent2.cy, :-11.·. Spea<.er. 1- final sup]; len-.en tarj , the l1on. tr.er.J:er for 1:·cmgat 1-;ountains. ~1 P. G. ViAP.RE!J : Yes, t·•r.

Sf'eaker, it is pro!:. ably part of a supplenentary but it ~ay be a new question. 0oes the ~nister's c1epart­ n:ent also intend to erect a traffj c light at the intersection of Hw:;ilton F--iver Road and I..oring Crive ,which is the !""Ost c;z.nse~ous

section in the whole corr.:rr.unity? T:tere have been nan"' accidents in the past anc es}-ecially '"'i th no he a tee sand on the !!!'cads nm:. rut l ~~ink there are some requests in to the minister and the former minister about erecting a traffic light in this section. Is the r..inister aware of it or is t."lere any intentions of erecting a traffic lisht t.~ere? H?.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transfortation ~~c Col!'r,unications. :~R._c.!...:·."'l.'!:-0:::: I aF not sure of the area the hen. roeml:er is talking about :. Is that the ona near the hotel? !'.R. c.

BFE'IT: There has been several requests in for that and I would have to say there is no fir.m decision on itr.~ainly because ~e have had requests fran'. all over the Frovince for this sort of thing 4641 .-

::~ ce :d e r 13 , 1 9 7~ Tap~ ::c • lE 45 >IR. C. BRE'lT: q.nd at this point in tir..e ~;e ha•Je not !:een at.le to iron ou_t any kine of a governmcmt policy. I ha;,-e the sar. :e si tuaticn in u.y at-'ll district, and t.'le. han. l>eader of the opposition, I t;hink, probably would like to have one in his district in the Come by Chance area. But as soon as \·re can· get sor:o.etr.ing in t!1e way of policy anc some agreement 1:-eb.'een councils and qovernr-ent 1 really t!"lat is what "-e have to come up "it.'-! 1 but it is under consideration. MP .• SEEJ\KER: The hon. Leadel: of the .:Jpposition. ~!R. D.

JA?.IESm:r: !'.r. f::peaker, I have a suppler-.er.tary to the questions asked by my colleag\ e, the l"el"ber !:or Ponavista i'lorth (!·!r. Stirling) . I ~:ouid like to direct t.':ler.-. to t.'le President c! the Council (Mr. ~Iarsh all) ~rho 1 I assrure 1 ' 4642

DeceMber 13, 1979 Tape No. 1846 SD - 1 HR. D. JAIHESON: since it \qas a Cabinet decision had some responsibility or _;:>erhaps give us some enlightenment witn regard to the Pre~ier's statement which is unequivocal in the sense that it says, "an interim Board of Directors of the Fisheries Loan Board consisting of officials was appointed. Could he please tell me and my colleagues does that mean that they supplant or replace the Board which, presumably, was appointed at an earlier time and whi::h was legal and statutorily correct? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR . W. MA..~HALL: The han. President of ~~e Council Mr.

Speaker, I can only add the same words the han. the Acting Minister of Fisheries uttered when he got up and made his - AN HOW. M&\ffiER: (Inaudible) l1R. W. MARSP.ALL: - no, when he got up I think he made the position crystal-clear. Now, the position with respect to the situation with respect to the Board of Directors of the Fisheries Loan Board is that the emphasis is on the interim~ in other words, it is a temporary Board of Directors. It is not intended to be forever and a day, it is intended to be temporary.

There was a situation tl2t arose with respect to the Fisheries Loan Board that all members of this House and the public are aware of 1 so the goverrunemt had to take action and it did. Or.e of the things which it did, one of the procedures it implimented was that it appointed an interim or temporary board. Now, that board is in existence while the present situation is being reviewed, As han. members will recall the Premier also indicated in his statement that a new procedure with respect to the loan applications are also being considered.

There have been discussio~s and there are discussions ongoing with the chartered banks and then there is a - MR. NEARY: MR. W. MARSHALL: It is a slap in the face for the fishermen. - no slap in the face of the fishermen! Tbe fishermen will be in a much more beneficial 4643 .·

Oec~er 13, 1979 HR. 1~ . :-IARS~.LL: HR. NEAR"l: MR. W. MARSHi\LL: MR. S PEN<ER : ( S i.ata:

s) MR. W. MA.!~SHALL: Tape No . 1846 so - 2 positio n with respect to it. (Inaudible) Mr . Speaker I if the non . - Or der, please ! - Leade r of c.'le Opposition wants an answer t.0 a questi on, I will give it to hL11 but I - MR. SPEA.'<ER: Order, plea se ! MR. W. HARSHALL: - would ask that he control his henchman over on the other side . M.R. SPEAKER: Orde r, please! A question has been asked , I 1o0uld pres u:ne an answer is re«uire d ar.d c.'lat metllbers on this side, in particular, would like t.0 hear the answer; there::cre, 1 would ask hon . members co control c.~eir incer jections . MR . H.

MARS!iAL.L: Thank. you, Hr. Spi!aker . 1 1dt:hdraw c.'le woro henchman . The hon . Leader of the Opposition has been doin~ suco a credi ble job of restraining the hon . members since he has been i:~ here tnat I realize that every now and t:nen ne :-.as got to blow his cool. SOH£ !:ION. M:E:-m£RS : ~1.~ . W. !-lARS HALL : Oh, oh . Now, !-tr . Speaker, to get bacl: to the Fisheries Loan 3oa::d , a.s the hon . Premier indicated the policy is being looked into in depth . It is thought, and we havt< had discussions with the charterea banks, and our aim is to make c.'"le mon1es mo::e availaole in greater 4644 .:..

Decerrber 13,1979 Tape No. 1847 MR.~JI.RSHl'LL: profusion for the fishermen. ~~d in connec~ion with this ~olicy thera is going to be consid.eration ~lith respect to the subsidization of interest rates so t..i.e fishermen will not pay any higher interest than they would 'lnaer the present arrangements with t..~e Fisheries Loan Board. So with this particular situation we have appointed an interim board. Jl..l>T RON .ME!-IBER: Have you rescinded the appointreents of the former boara members? M R.Mli.RSHALL: Well, I lvould not say recinded. We have placed it in suspension at the present time.

Nhen t~e whole universe unfolds as it will unfold ~1ithin the next couple of months, then these directors may or may not be back in again but in the meanti~e this is an iteri~ board and the powers of the board are now being exercised insofar as they are exercised by directors by this interim Board of Directors. sam: !"ON. ~lE}ffiERS: Hear, hear! HF. ~PFAKER: (Si=.

s) Order, please! A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 1-!R.JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I am not evern bei~g argumentative. I simply want to know what t..'le mechanism was .'r'o the best of my knowleccge 1 if you appoint an interim board it must mean that you revoke in law whatever the citation or the piece of paper or the nomination of those gentleman. Has that in fact been done? .- MR. SPEA.'<ER: The hon. President of the Council. ------ MP •• HAP$H.l\LL: Mr. Speaker, tl~e hon. gentlerr.an is not being argumentative: I kno~: · he is seeking information.

In effect what has happened is when you select an interim board is that by the operation of appointing the interim board the powers of t..i.ose exercising the members of the otber board are not cancelle~, they are not fired 1but they are suspended for the preser~ ~i~. SOME RON .NF..MBERS:: Oh, oh! :·!R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The han. Leader of t..'le Opposition. :IR.JAl'>liESOH: I must say in the spirit of t..'le 4645

'!ape :ro.

J. 4 Season I can onli' , e C::arit:<>..hle !:o cr.e of t.he great legal tri:lCs i ~ the i!ct:se ':JhO ~.nc~,:s f ~l: well t! \u.t a oa:::d ,·hic.'l is co-:1s!;i tutec cannot be put ot:t o£ t usi.;ess i n tr.at "-ay,am! 1. scgges-t to t! .e hon . ge~tlema.'l ~hat it ·.~cu c r.on!!stly be far ~ etter for h~ to concece ~~at wbat really has hapFe nec is that an ::.:1. e . i::- as !:>een put in place and for bett er cr •xorse the ger:.tle:nen 'oJ •• o l>ere !'!!gally consti uted as that J:;oarC. ~:ere, as I cr.Cerstanc it, not even given the courtesy of being to ld that ~'ley were , to use his ~xpression , in suspens~on.

I suggest o hi~ tr.at he might even loo k as to whe ~er or not he can in fact put · t:h~ in suspension. He can • ut Tr.!! in s·=;e:1Sio r. sometimes with hi s an!l'< ers, but I co not t.t.inl · egally he ay be able to do it . :-!!'!.. SPf'J'l.KE?.( Sirnltls) The hon. Presi ent of the Counci . Mr. Spea.~e:::, all I ca co is just 4646 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape 1848 PK - 1 Mr. Marshall: repeat the answer that had been given. It would depend- first of all, I am really all that sure that members of the Board - SQ~ HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! I am really not all that sure - (Inaudible) . No,this is not so. I am quite sure of what I am saying. I am not sure of what the hen. Leader of the Opposition is saying, that is what I am saying. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: The situation is that I am not sure that the members of the Board were not, in fact, notified. r-m. STIRLING: They had no notice. MR.

MARSHALL: Well,I mean, you know, this is a statement made by the hen. member, and, you know, I accept ~t that ~is is tfe information and that is his perc-eption. But my perception is that I am not that sure that the members of the Board were not notified as to the situation. Now with respect to what the Leader of the Opposition says, about them being placed in a state of suspension or whatever statement of "ferment he interprets them to be, all I can say it is a matter, Mr. Speaker, of

interpretation. My

interpretation is. as- have given it out. The hen. Leader of the Opposition gets up,being a reasonable man,and puts his

interpretation on my words. But, you know, that is the situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: And I would say if this were a point of order, Your Honour would say it is a difference of opinion between two hen. gentlemen. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. 4647 -·

December 13, 1979 Tape 1848 PK - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 8, Bill No. 22. On mot-ion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act, 1974". (Bill No. 22). The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, after just a couple of minutes on this yesterday or the day before,I adjourned the debate. Since that time the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) has returned to the House and I would like to take this opportunity to welcome him back to the House. He certainly looks a lot better than I feel at the moment with the head cold that I have.

And I certainly hope that he enjoyed his trip to the sunny clime. Mr. Speaker, as I said 1 this particular amendment is a very simple amend."Tient. It is an amendment, basically it changed the name which is now given fram a Magistrate's Court to a Provincial Court, and magistrates from magistrates to provincial judges. I presume the rationale is to give them more dignity and I assume this is what they are looking for. Mr. Speaker, in supporting this bill there are certain matters on which I would like to take this opportunity to express my views. In this Province and particularly in St. John's, Mr.

Speaker, we have an urgent need, a very urgent need for new facilities, that is, · if the administration of justice in this Province is not to be held up to ridicule. The building that presently houses our Supreme Court Trial Division contains three courtrooms of varying sizes; one is a fairly large courtroom as you walk in the main entrance to your left, and then you go back further there is another courtroom a little small~, but then you have the third courtroom which is a great deal smaller, and one that was converted from a judge's Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, this courtroom is so small that if a member of the general public wished to attend a trial basically he could not find a place to sit. 4648

December 13, 1979 Tape 1848 PK- 3 Mr. Thoms: !1r. Speaker, the l_ack of adequate courtroom facilities in this Province, and as I say particularly in st. John's was brought home dramatically 4649

December 13, 1979, Tape 1849, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: in a trial th~t was reported in our papers this last few days and that was when a trial was actually held and was forced to occupy on different occasions three different courtrooms. . After having to put up with the cold and an overcrowded courtroom in the upstairs of the courthouse,which was the judges chamber that was converted, the judge, the lawyers, the witnesses, the court officials moved out of that building to the Appeal Division courthouse which is immediately East of our present cour~~ouse facilities in St.

John's; that was vacant there until lunchtime. Fortunately, of course, one of the trials that was taking place in the main courthouse ended at noon and then the court packed itself up again and moved back into the regular courthouse. I think, probably, it has to be the first time in the history of ~~e Supreme Court in Newfoundland that it was on circuit in St. John's, that is, moving from courtroom to courtroom. Mr. Speaker, the provincial court is also housed in the same building and in the basement of this building there exists what is known as the lock-up. Mr.

Speaker, in this day and age it is a shame to all of us that such a place exists. I said that in this House before and I will say it again. It is a dirty, dingy hole and, in my opinion, no amount of renovations can cure the problem there. The present Minister of Justice can be satisfied with nothing less than a new courtroom' in St. John's. The past Minister of Justice, who not sits on 01 r Supreme Court, i think should be thoroughly ashamed of himsel I believe that they now would be the first people - I think if you now went to the past Minister of Justice, who was recently appointed Chief Justice of our - MR.

BARRY: MR. SPEAl<ER(Butt) : A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. 4650

December 13, 1979, Tape 1849, Page 2 -- apb HR. BARRY: The hen . gentleman is making a comment upon one of Her Majesty's judges and I would submit that that is out of order. MR. THOMS: 1iir. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Butt): han. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: To that point of order, To the point of order. The I am not making a comment on one of our present judges~ what I am commenting on is his position at the time that he was Minister of Justice. MR. SPEAKER(Butt) : hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: To the point of order. The Mr.

Speaker , I would submit that this is an attack upon a judge of the Supreme Court o1: Newfoundland and that it is completely out of order and that if the hon. member has any comments to make he should make them to the existing, the present Minister of Justice. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. I would ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks to the bill. Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: The hen. the member for Mr.

Speaker, what I am saying, I think, is tha~and I have discussed this with the judges of our Supreme Court, if you went now and you talked to the judges of our Supreme Court I think, Appeal or Trial Division, they would say that the facilities are inadequate.

Basically, that is all I am saying and I am saying that it is to the shame of past Ministers of Justice and to pas'~ governments, Tory and Liberal, that our facilities, that our 1 )ck-up are as they are tc·1 J.y. i suspect that the reason they .re, and I am not condoning the Liberal Administration either, I suspect it is because there are not that many votes in building courthouses on Duckwcrth Street. Mr. Speaker, concern is forever being expresses about the backlog of cases in our courts. 4651 .·

Decerr~er 13, 1979, Tape 1849, Page 3 -- apb MR. THONS: One of the major reasons ------- for the backlog is that our judges, particularly at st. John's, are operating in inadequate facilities and it is about •· 4652

Decer.ber 13, 19i9 Tape 1850 EC - l MR. 'H!OHS: tim= that this defect in ~~e adrr~nistration of justice of this Province was cured. Now, I really do not think that the pr:sent Minister of Justice {Mr. Ottenheirner) would disagree with me that these facilities are inadequate. He need more and we need better facilities, and that is basically what I am saying. Mr. Speaker, another matter is that I think every effort must be made to reduce and eventually eliminate ~~e number of police prosecutions in ~~is Province.

Now, I realize that we are going in that direction, but this is a major concern of members of the legal profession and the public at large. Mr. Speaker, justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done. And as long as you have policemen prosecuting in our courts, justice will not seem to be done.

This has been a major complaint over ~'J.e years oy all people who are concerned wit.~ the acL.-ninistration of justice in this Province - that accused people may feel, justifiably or not, ~>at they have not received a fair hearing if a policeman carries out the prosecution at ~~eir trial for a crime whic~ is also being investigated by ~'J.e same policeman. And in some cases, b1e same person who carries out ~'J.e investigation carries out the prosecution. Now this is a practice that we must work to eliminate in this Province.

As I said, justice must not only be done, out must seem to be done. there is an archaic practice Mr. Speaker, along ~~ose lines as well, now I want to point out so that the l•linister of Mines and Energy {~tr. Barry) will not be able to accuse me of ..J :L.a....:r...;.ng our policemen in this Province, I am not blaming ~'le police for this. You know,~a policeman does, in these cases, basically what he is told to do, and if he is told to prosecute a case, he will do it.

But just in case the Minister of Mines and Energy wants to accuse me of attac~ing the policemen in this Province, I want to point out that it is not an attack on our policemen. 4653

Uecernbe r _3 , 1979 ·~· ap e as~ EC - . . R • IJ.'!-!011.5 : I an ~oing to :na!<e: i·le ave a very arci aic , out dated , out:roci.ed t-ra c ::.ice in t. is ?rovince - no•11 it rna:/ be ir ali. of t.!:e >Jt.'-aer provin~es oi Canada for all I k.now, but it is an archaic practice and it must be eliminated . .:.nd I am w-ilkins a saqgestion here that I think it: can be eliminated t.o:norro,.,, It does not · ave ~o wait un~il next we~ or nex~ Ir~n~ or next year , it is a practice t! at can be elimi:-~ated i:;mJediately .

At t.1-)e present time, an accused is oblige~ to sit in a prisoner's box flanked by police o£~icers . In ~1-a t:ni ted States they co not have to co t.'ti.s. As you :--now, a..,ybody ~~ho has '"a~ched television , •,;hioh is fairly acc urate ::1 t.'la~ re~spect, can see t.'le accused sitting with his coun,;el, 'o<~i th hls _awyer, a.-.c that is t.~ e way it: should be here . :·one of us can for~t that in our system a."l. accc.sec is in:1ocenc until proven guilty . Z-tr .

Speake r, it ;ny O!lL"lion, nothing 9ives the L'!lpression I'\Ore that a person is guilty tha..-1 the custom of forci119 - e accused to sit: _n a p r i3oner ' s box guarded ~Y two police~en . 1'~-.d it: is even worse in t.'le case of cl1c ii.CH?. They are there with blazing red jackets anc the poor little innocent ­ until--proven-guilty pers on is scared to death . ! ~ a~ seen it over a...-.d over . l\ny!:lociy •«no ilas practiced law in tl.is ?rovince has s ee!'l :. t ove r and over. It is sc~re~"ling tnat neees to be ci1angeci , should . be C:;anged and car. be changed ::ornorrow .

I ';as very leased, as a rnat1:e::- of fac"t., 4654

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1851 NM- 1 MR. L. THOMS: read recently where 1 I believe it was Mr. Justice Goodridge, and this, I b 1ink, cut o~ necessity of frustration this happened. Apparently the accused was sitting there between either two policemen or two RCMP officers; and the lawyer who sits about t·«o or three seats in front had to keep getting up, going back to the box, asking his client questions, and going back, sitting in his place to address the judge. So the judge in that case permitted the accused to sit ~t the lawyer's table with the accused. That is where he should be sitting.

Because I do not thi~~ that we can ever forget in this democratic democracy of ours that a person is innocent until proven guilty. And as I said, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anything that gives the impression of guilt more than the accused sitting or standing, wedged in between two great big burly policemen. a~d like I say, it is something that should be changed. It can be changed to~nrrow. is no reason why it has to wait, Mr. 5Peaker. There Mr. Speaker, I think from the lowest constable to the Assistant Chief of Police we have one of the finest police forces in the world.

The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is second to none. However, I think the Minister of Justice in this Province, and this government, must address itself to certain matters concerning our Constabulary. One of these matters, Mr. Speaker, is a police commission. At the present time the department is run by one man, the Chief of Police, who is answerable only to the minister. It is time that we at least looked at the benefits of such a commission. It would, I believe, improve the image and the lot of our police force.

There is another area, as I understand it, that should~e looked into, that is the training methods, whether or not they are the most modern training methods that can be employed to train our policemen. Hopefully 1 the new building will be able to afford better training facilities for our policemen. And with an emphasis, 4655 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1851 NM- 2 MR. L. THm1S: Mr. Speaker, on the prevention of crime. After all,it is crime prevention that it is all about,it is not the apprehension .and the punishment of persons after a crime has been committed. Mr. Speaker, there are other things. I believe we have to look at a police force's right to strike in this Provin~e. How many times have we watched television, only recently in New Brunswick, where we had a police strike and you get looting, and property damage. MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. member is aware that there is no right to strike in the police force in Newfoundland. MR.

THOHS: There is no right in Newfoundland ? I am sorry- no, I was not. MR. OTTENHEIMER: There is no right to strike in Newfoundland. MR. THOMS: There is no right. Well 1 that is one problem that has been taken care of. MR. NEARY: But it will come up every year, you know, whether they should have the right to strike. That is what my han. friend is arguing. MR. THOMS: Yes. MR. OTTENHEIMER: They do not now and I just wanted to - MR. NEARY: They are discussing it now amongst. themselves whether they should have the right to strike. MR. OTTENHEIMER: The tentative agreement will be signed tomorrow. MR.

NEARY: Oh well, that ~·ill be fine. No right to strike in that. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, there are two things that are being done presently by our policemen here in this city that hold our police up to ridicule, and it lessens ~he respect that our ( 4656

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1851 NM - 3 MR. THOMS: people have for the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. The first, Mr. Speaker, is that o~r trained poliee~en 1 in a time when every crime is on the increase .· 4657

'I ape ~~a . 1 852 : ·;·; - 1 they are still used as meter maids. ~: o~:- , Nr. Spea. Y .. er, I realize that tf ~ e l·~ir.ister of Justice has told us in t."le I:ouse, in c.ns\o.er to certain question s that I nave put to hi'" 1 that t!:ley are now thi!'.kin<] a!:. out turning 0\·er t.l1.is rssponsibility to the city of St. Joru""l.' s. ~·y problem is I really co not unc.erstand t.'1e &e.!.ay.I understanr. t.'Je city is a:r:xious, ar,xicus to take over this repor>.sibili ty and I see no reason v•hy the!"~ is a Celay in it unless, of course, ~.l!r.

S~> eaker, it is a greet source of revenue for the Frovince 2J1C they are not going to s;-ive it up that eilsily. !1r. Speaker, t :1ere is another thing, I tnir:Y. 1 that pror.aLly rr·ore than the t:cter syster . brings our police force here in St. Johr.' ,; into ridicule and that, Mr. Speaker, is t.l:c quota syste rr. ':"he : ~iP. ister of Justice (!·!r. Ottenheir.: e

r) c>.nd the FresiC:ent cf the Council (~!r. :.•ar:;hall) 1 tb:y can stand up in ti1is ~:ouse 2nc deny that such a sy.;te; •· e >:ists until the cm,·s ' ooJre ?lcJ:Ce1 they ace only hiding t':leir headsin the sane. I l<oulc suggest to t:1e President of the Cruncil a.nci. the :-::i.nister of J u stice th<t if they want to kno;; if a quota system does, in fact, exist in this city today, that they go out on the street anc ask al,.,.,o::;t any pclicerar. in the cit~ and he will tell you that such a thing does exist. And that is h·hy 1 !'-~r.

Speaker, that is ·,~rhy you see cur force, our Eelyal :~ewfourldlanC. constabulary, t:hat is sec:ond to none any where, lu:cking behir.c t he Je>:ish s:n:.agc<Jue or Elizabeth ':'ewers to catch the unsusre cting !T'.otr rists. Instead of ,.-hen a left turn is mac's illesal 1 instead of giving a frienc~y ~\y arning' you knoll I goinc; ,_~ to Lte ~otorist ~!l C1 s aying r I ~ok ; .. I realize that this was j t:st done, you rray not know it but you have made an illegal left han e' •:-,...., •, somethins liJ:e thc.t 1 what happens is they hacl out the book and give a tic:ke.t irrrr.e<1iately.

Th<ct is J:.ecat,se they are t!:}'ins to fill their quota for that month. police force when a policeman's progress through the ranks is decided, measured by the n=h 'r of tickets he c;ives out. F-.nc I hc.ve spc-ken to a lot of _;;Jolice- 4658 .·

::. . L. -:r-:-:c:s: ~e:-t ].n ::is ci ~~· P..r.C unl ess t hey a~c all liar~ "'-quota syst:C !" exists ana >ihet."u•r c r net t ~, ey ceco ,e a c~p ta.:.n or a s a r;;cant or "h atc•rer t.'le ,;ituation .i:s1 :.t • ill <'e. e n· or. ti".e fa-ct · .. :tet! e: or :1ot they r.:alte their c;uota ar • .-' are consistent in making their quota. ::C:: a.s I :;aiC , ~r-:.e ~~r:i oter c:: Just i::e c~• h iC:e 1lis :1ea<:: in the sc.nc a.""lC. say that he has :-.o evit'ence t.1-at exists i:.ut: t."ere is ,:>lent· of e vi dence . ;J.l .e h.:.s to eo i s do a little bit of di gging hiMSelf.

If !:le •··e re p..:e;arec to ~llll t:5, :"'le ho:~s r:::OC: • ·lY sotten t i~~ets ezactl y t hE sa~e way . :~r - s:.~a.l,;.er, fe-r tr.e last scint , it is tir .e. t hat t he re r; ortrr-ent of Jus1:ice and I rc~lize t:h£ ;xeser:t ini ster ::as only :..e.en the re for !i Vf:! or six r.on ths a,-: C.

I wai:e :to apolcc;ies fc:: :U.s p ret'.:cesso rs1 be t.'ley Li eral o:: Tor:.- ;: C"a'-e .. o a,...olo~e-s !:or t.":c ~ · 1 !:t:t it is tirr~ that t he: Depe:.1.trent of -:-ust±ce listened to the pec pl ~ of t.'li-s !'rovi:1ce .,.:ho haye -...eer callin g for a !' o~·col Cor.l"issicn i r.to .e aer~nistration of Justice . ; ?~y~ Ccnri~a ion can co ccthing, "l.r. sre akgr 1 l:Ut increaSe .e respect of t he ordi;,a r y peo j.-le for justice, a reso;ect th?.t I : e<.:~ l :'l t~.S been on the c'ecline over thLs -a:;t ~t!l !:'er of :rears . I thi:lk 4659 -· ~ .,..,.._~ .. ...,......--~7.=-r:'l',.,-.-.

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1853 NM -1 MR. THOHS: the royal commission can only help bolster L~e people of this Province and their image of justice in this Province. There are too many people saying, wherever you go you find them, there are just too many people who have no respect and feel that they are not going to get justice before our courts. Mr. Speaker, a royal commission could look into the matters that I have already addressed myself to this afternoon. The lack of facilities in the Province could be looked at by a royal commission.

Police prosecutions could be looked by a royal commission, something that I have already said must be eliminated. I have had the experience of finding out, of being in a predicament such as this. As I said,I realize, Mr. Speaker, that we have gone a long way in connection with this. I think we can go further. I think we can eliminate it altogether. If I am not mistaken,the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) before the Canadian Bar Association of Newfoundland said that it could not be eliminated entirely.

I think the minister was quoted at the time as saying that the police prosecutions could not be eliminated entirely. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Not - MR. THOMS: Well 1 that was not the way that he was quoted. I say it can be eliminated entirely. I think it must be eliminated entirely if people are to feel that they are getting justice in our courts. A police commission for St .. ~ohn's and the Province could be another matter looked at by this royal commission, the training of policeme,:t 1 police as meter maids -I make no apologies to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) for using the terminology polic~ as meter maids.

Hopefull~the Department of Justice will cure this problem shortly. Quotas for tickets. Until the Department of Justice Minister is prepared to take his head out of the sand then we are going to have this. ! 4660

December 13 , 1979 Tape No. 1853 N:l - 2 MR. TEIO~!S: l•!r . Speaker, there are other =tters thi\t auch a commission coulc look into. Extending ~he Royal Newfoundland Constabulary to a truly orovincial p~lice force, replacing the RCMP i~ the Province,could be something that a royal commission could look into. I believe I read i~ the paper a couple of days ago where the present Premier said that t:.his would - be looked into, WJ.I:.'l the possibi l ity of our Newfoundland Constabulary becoming a truly provincial police force.

I think the proper place for this to be looked at is with a royal commis sion into the administration of justice. There are other ma~ters , I have a resolution on the Order Paper for Private ~~embers' Day ir. connection wi::h vandalism in the Province . Sure , there is vandalism in Lamaline . I can tell the Minister of Transportation and Communication (~. Brett) that there is vandalism going on throughout this Province , unfortunately in almost every town and village i:~ Newfoundland. And it is somet.'ling that has got to be looked into .

Surely God,we ca~ come up with some solutions to the prob l em of vandalism in this Province. ~!r . Spea.<:er , 1 am sure there are many other ~atters that a royal commission into the administration of jus~ce of this Province could look into. These are 4661

December 13, 1979 Tape 1854 EC - 1 HR. TliOMS: JUSt a few. I have only touc~ed on, !-lr. Speaker, many of the problems facing us toci.ay in the adrri:1istration of justice in this Province. There are many, mar.y r.lore in wnic'l I have had t.he experience and I could speak on at length. I would certainly like to see sone of the matters I have spoken about acteci. on immediately. ~~e questio n of our policemen spending their time handing out tickets for expired meters - I think the government should act on t.'lat i=ediately.

T'ne archaic practice in our courts of having an accused sit between two policemen, I t.'link, can be acted on i~diately. !-lr. Spea~er, my purpose really today in mentioning some of these t.'1ings and taking more time tilar. I •,;ould nonnally spend on a simple amendment such as this, is to trz t o prick the conscience of the Hinister of Justice (:-lr. Ottenheimer) and meli1Ders of t.'lis House. I hope I have been able to do t.:"1is and I hope we can look forward to some positive action in the very near future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) The hon. the member for LaPoile. l1R. NEARY: ~!r.

Speaker, first of all, I want to say that I am in complete agreertent wit."! my hon. friend, asking for a Royal Commission of Inquiry into the administration of justice in this Province. It is somet.~ing that I have been asking for in this House for t.~e last ten years - a full-fledged investigation, inquir~, into the administration of justice i n this Province. And my hon. frienci. has reiterated today arguments that have been put fm:ward in t."lis House in the last ten or twelve years over and over and over again. Mr.

Speaker, therP- is no doubt about it at all that the people of this Province . have lost respect for law and order and the people of this Province r~ally and truly ~clieve that there are two laws in Newfoundland, one for the rich and one for the poor - that it is not who you are but wh01r.you know in this Pro ·.rince that counts. Mr. Speaker, like my hon. friend, I could go on and on and on for hours about the administration of justice in this Province and about how weak-kneed ministers prior to ti1e pre~ent minister 4662 -·

Oec~~Der 13, 19i9 have been - ve·ry weak-~need . \~e have hac weak-kneed :·li:listers o! Justice "''no t:.l;ought t.'leir job was t:o do nothL"'g else l:<ut to p::-ote.c:: t.~e Premier and the ac:minis:Zation and minist:ers in t:.'le goverrunent. For ins::a."lce, :·1r. Speaker, I •.-oulc! like I do, oo~c! tell a;e - :-:o,~ ;;~uch plea !>argaini:1g goes O:\ in c..1is ?rov1.nce? How ma."ly deals are maci.e over the tele phone and in t.>:e back rooms and in lal·fYers ' offices t:hat should be :hr ~sh ed out in the courtroo:11? Ji ... w r.-.a.ny deals are made , Mr. S?eaker? ;o~e !lear of sozoo of t.":.er.:.

I know of sor.a wnere deals are :nade . Lawyers qet: toqether and ta.B. >:o one another en t.'te pi'lone and t.'l.ey cecice . And t:'len they qo eo..-n a:1c t.;ey subtly drop a fe-.. hln::s t:c the ::.agistrat:e a t)rovincial jucge , it does not :'\ake any di.:.:erance. Deals a.re made, too T:IAnY ceals are tr.ade . Too many s;eople 's vercicts and their futurts are c!ecided on t.'le t.elephone and in t:1e back roo:ns and in some of tl-.e divas i:~ Co\>:nto·.m St . .John's. People's futures, !-l.r.

Sfeal<er, are treated as a rat.'ler trivial matt:er ar.d the provincial judges now, en~ r.agis e:at:es, are suc:i<:ed i:l t oo of:er. into going along wit:'l ::.he la'w)'e:s 10:\0 ma:<:e t.'lese C.eals . ~·le. had one case recently 4663 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape 1855 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: where a deal was made, it is so obvious that a deal was made and it was a major case, a case of major proportion in this Province, where a sweetheart deal was made, or plea bargaining, whatever you want to call it. And I sent and asked for the transcript of that case, the Supreme Court case 1 and I was told that I could not have the transcript, that I would have to ask a lawyer to get it for me.

I.as a member of a Provincial Legislature,which is considered to be the highest Court in the land 1could not have access to the transcript of that court case because I am r.ot a lawyer. I was told, "Look,if you go and ask a lawyer and he requests it he will get it and he can give you a copy". What kind of nonsense is that? I wanted to find out, I wanted to take a look at the testimony that was given. And I wanted to take a look at the judge's remarks and the lawyer's remarks that were made at that case that was so hush-hush. A big case it was in this Province, and, in my opinion, a deal was made.

A deal was maee with the lawyers and with the Justice Department. How can the courts, Mr. Speaker, get sucked in to .s.uch things as making deals? They call it plea hargaining down in the United States. Mr. Speaker, we saw last year a very unfortunate example of how frustrated the law enforcement officers can get in this Province, how frustrated they can get.

We saw it last year, and we saw the m~gistrates used as tools of ~~e government t.'le Minister of Justice, and the Justice Depart..uEu.t, and the government appointed a magisterial enquiry into a leak of a document from the police department, a magisterial enquiry, Mr. Speaker, into a leak. The real issue was brushed aside. ,• The government trying to embarrass the Leader of the Oppositio~used one of the magistrates as a tool, a puppet 1 of the government for political purposes. No wonder they are demoralized . And why was the leak necessary in the first place?

Because the police, the law enforcement officer~were completely frustrated at the lack of action in the Justice Department. I am looking to my hon. friend for reforms in the administration of justice 4664

December 13, 1979 Tape 1855 PK - 2 ~ . Nearv: in chis Province . I think the hon . c;entleman is sincere and will want to do things, will \o.'ant to act . '!'ha c is why we have this bill before us today which may seem like a very mino r bill, !ol.r. Speaker, bee it is a major bill whe., you look at it. Mr. speaker , my hon. colleague mentioned the lack of facilities in this Prcvince. I do not chink I have to go into any detai l about the condition of the jail in St.

George's, the condition of the jail in Bonavisca, and the conditions down here at Her Hajesty 's Penitentiary, the Lakeside Hotel, where I am told she is blocked so solid,this week she is blocked so solid that parolees, people who have been put on parole by che courts, go down and are cu:ned awa y from the doors, believe it or not , Tne::,r. are cold, ''Look,you do not na ve to check in tonight, we do r.ot have any room for you. There is no zoom at the inn . " Now, that may sound far-fetched, M.r . Speaker, but it is true .

This week there are so many inmates at Her Majesty's Penitentiary t hat those people who are out on parole,who have to check in once a week or go down on weekends to serve their sentences cannot get in even though they have that trailer down in the yard that I spoke about recently. Now,what about this parole system, Mr . Speaker, is it \o.~rking? I would l ike for the minister to be able co tell us. I follow 4665

Dece~ber 13,1979 Tape No.l856 hH-1 ~lR.NFAFY: the acministration of justice very closely in this Province. I am ve~J concernec about v~;dalism and crime. "<"c•be not so much about vancalism as I am about -crime, about the ir,crease in armed robbery in this Province, the nUll'ber of rapes in this Province, the number of serious crirees, Mr. Speaker, that are taking place in this Province, especially armed robbery.

You are r!.sking your life to own a service station in Newfoundland today and what irritates me abo~:<t it, Sir, is when you read the ne>~spapers you see that some of these people , when they are apprehended, are out on parole which brings me to . wy next point, Sir. I wonder, Mr.Spea~er, if the courts are not too lenient?

Now1 the l~inister of Justice's predecessor, every time I would argue that there wasno'consistency in the sentencing in the court, ~~d every ~ime I wcu1d argue that t~e courts were being too lenient with serious offenders, the !>!inister of Justice of that day would get up and argue, "Well, what do you want to do? Do you wa1·1.t to put them in front of a firing squad? No, :t:·. Speaker, I am not advocating drastic measures.

I am not advocating that their heads be cut off with swords but I am advocating ~~at the sentence fit the crime and that the sentencing in this Province by our provincial juaqes be consistent and it is not consistent today. In one part of the Province somebody who commits an offence will get a six month suspension and in another part of ~~e Province somebody who col'lrmits a similar offence will get six months in jail or get fined $500. There is no consistency. 1"aybe it is impossible to get consistency.

Eut how can people have faith in the administration of justice if there is no consistency in L~e sentencing and if there is no consistency in the bail terms,- the conditions under which people can get out of jail? There is inconsistency, Mr.Speaker, no consistency at all. You could commit murder in this Province and you could get bail, get out, get released on your own recognizance. You could commit a lesser crime and you would have a $250,000 bail slapped at you plus your passport removed, plus you have to check into the RCMP three times a day. And do not tell rr•e it has 4666 .·

December 12,1 9 79 '!'ape No . 1856 !!R . NZ RY : not: happened, Nr . Spea k er . :-~nere is t!':e consistency? 1-l:\ere is it? .Is it any wonder tha people are lcosing fait.~ anc have lo5t .fait.'l i n t he acl.ni nistrati.on of justice in this I'rovin ce'f :tr . Speaker, t..;ere ~;a_s a point I •;anted to l!ention there in conne c tion with the La.'i(eside Hotel but I got side tracked myself .

Pecently ... e sa·" a situation where t=u-ee inma tes of er :~ajes~:y 1 s Penitentiary esc apee and ~1e report that ••re r,ad •• · ~ t..,a t they brof;e ~e locks, tl-:ey !:>rok ~ the locks on t.hc gyt:masium door to get out, they broke the locks to get out. And you ~~ow what happened then, tr. S_eaker? T~ese thee i~mates , wh en t.'ley •ere reca;:-t\lr ec , ~: ere put in tr.e hole, ~-< ~ at t."ley ca ll the hole .

That means a 1!\ilttress was flung cO\o.'D on the flo or , t....,ey d'C' r.ot have ar.y !:>lan}:ets, hey ~Jere r.ot al lowec to ST'lOke, hey .ad no _pr · vile<;es, no ric; h ts c r ;1rivile ~es , t:'1eir lar.ket s •.;ere tossec into then eleven o' clod: at nlght , t~ey war~ in the hole ~~a as far as ! k~ow they are still i4 !'!e hole. I am not arguin c; abou t t hat but ~,·t-.at I am arguing arout . :-!r.

Speaker, is that the at'ministration :!own at !"'er Maje s ty 1 s Pe!'litentiary over -react~d t:o the publicity that they c;:ot: anc they s:.ut c wn the 9j111lnasium0 Noboey insicle . t.'le walls of the penitentia..'i' could use t.'te gumnasium , everybody was punished, every . riscner, 4667 :

December 13, 1979, Tape 1857, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: every inmate was punished, they shut her down and as far as I know, the gymnasium is not reopened yet. They over-reacted to the publicity they . got. On rainy days down there now, I am told, there is nothing to do. Mr. Speaker, what about court reporters? Every time you go to a court in this Province and ask for a transcript, apart from being brushed off with the fact that you have to get it from a lawyer, I am told that they do not have enough court reporters and that is why you have delays and you have a backlog of cases in this Province awaiting trial.

An insufficient number of court reporters. I do not see why something could not be done about that so we could, those of us who are interested in these matters, get the transcripts of the trials from the courts. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to hear from the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) how far the government can go, how far the Cabinet can go in asking to have matters investigated in this Province. Can they order an investigation? Can the Cabinet order an investigation as they have done in the past?

Or will they just request the RCMP or the Newfoundland C~nstabulary to carry out an investigation? Can they order, as they have done in the past, that a man be apprehended and thrown in jail on an order of the Cabinet? How far can they go, sir? Do they have the suprente power like the Ayatollah Khomeini over in Iran? Well, Cabinets in this Province have gone that far. When they were told by the law-enforcement officers there was insufficient evidence to arrest a certain man, a certain gentleman and put him in jail, they were told by Messrs .

Crosbie I am not al'~wed to name the other gentleman because he has just been appointed to the bench. I am not allowed to mention his name or talk about him - 'Go out and arrest that man and throw him in jail'. Shoot first and we will ask questions after. How far can Cabinets go and how far can the Premier go with that sort of thing that has happened in this Province? Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker, that people have lost faith in the 4668 .·

.,. December 13, 1979, Tape 1857 , Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: administration of justice in this Province? And another thing that irritates me, ~lr . Speaker, about the courts, and it is about time they smartened up, and that is the ol d con game that is c;oing on with the ~:se of psychiatrists in cases. The lawyers have cottoned onto this and this is a great out for ·them . You c~~ commit whatever crime you like in Newfoundland now if you can get a psychiatrist to come in and say that you were not yourself at the time, 4669 •.-,-.·-~·----... --..... ...-.--- ··---~- -------,- ···~-- .. - . ·------ ~-..--- ------· ----~..,.. _.,.._,._, ____ .,.

DecembEr 13, 1979 Tape No. 185i.l SD - 1 MR. s. NEARY: you were a little bit off that day, you were a little bit off-balanced the time you pulled the trigger or you went out and got in behind ~e wheel of your car and went out and killed some little innocent child in this Province. You were not yourself, you were under stress and strain. That is all you got to do in this Province,Sir, get a psychiatrist to go i:1 and certify that 1 then,you are sent down to the Waterford for a ten day exa1nina tion. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) 11R. S. NEARY::: That is right. And then the next thing you know it is all over.

It is all over. The poor fellow was not himself at the time. Psychiatrists are taJ~ing over our society, we saw that the other cay when my hon. friend was talking about the Drug Bill. They have gone too far 1 Hr. Speaker, they are too powerful and it is time to put a stop to it. They are just turuing our courts into a joke, making a farce out of ~~e law enforcement officers and out of the courts. If I had my way they would be banned from the courtrooms, they would not be allowed in there to get - my hon. friend shakes his head.

This is a very serious matter that is concerning people who are responsible for the administration of justice right across North America - how the psychiatrists have gotten a stranglehold on the courts and are misusing and abusing their privilege. :1aybe there is not:1.ir.g we can do about it, I do not know1 but certainly it is worth taking a look at because it is a very serious matter. If you can afford it and you can get a good psychiatrist, you can get away with murder in this Prcvince. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me see what else I wanted to talk about under this particular item.

I mentioned the bail conditions, I mentioned the inconsistency in sentencing people in this Province, I mentioned the problem that is brought on because of the lack of court reporters, I mentioned the plea bargaining and the deals which, in my opinion,are a very serious matter. There 4670

December 13, 1979 ·rape No. 1858 SD - 2 MR. S • NE.i\.RY : sr.ould be no deals made, there should be no little sweetheart deals made by lawyers in any matter. :rhe man is charged and brought to c;:ourt - let t."le court decide his future and not a couple of lawyers over a few drinks or over the telephone or in the back room 1 in t."le office of the judge. Mr. Speaker, I have one more matter that I want to raise and this is a matter, I am sure, of grave concern to many Newfoundlanders and t.'lat is, Sir, the use of cannabis, the illegal use of cannabis and marijuana and LSD in this Province at the present time.

It is a bigger problem than hon. rn.ernDers think. I would say it is one of the greatest curses apart from booze and liquor. BoCJze and liquor are J:lrobably the greatest curses we have in our Newfoundland society but the illegal use and selling of cannabis and marijuana, and now we are told, reports indicate that people are graduating to LSD, that it is a major problem, Sir. I would say it is probably equal to the effects of booze.

I would say that booze and the use of drugs in this Province are probably running neck in neck and I do not know which one is the worse, which is the greatest curse in our Newfoundland society. It is something we have turned a blind eye to. The hon. gentleman will tell us it is a federal responsibility, it is a federal matter. People have been very concerned about it. Young men and young women have had their reputations ruined because they have been charged with having drugs to sell or be in possession of cannibus or marijuana or LSD.

There have been arguments that it is far better to smoke, to have a toke than it 4671 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1859 GH-1 MR. NEARY: is to go out and drink a bottle of booze. I do not know, Sir, I cannot speak from experience, but I have talked to an awful lot of people, an awful lot of people, who say that it is far better to toke her up than it is to spend your evenings down in the beer tavern bringing on cirrhosis of the live~. So, ~tr.

Speaker, the question that I pose for hen. members is whether or not we are going to continue to turn a blind eye to the use of drugs, and I am referring mainly to the light, not the heavy, stuff, to cannabis, hash or marijuana, and ask hen. members - I only throw this out as a questiou, I throw it out just as food for thought 1 should the Government of Canada decriminalize marijuana? Should it be removed from the Criminal Code, should it? I have my own views that I would be glad to present if I were ever given the opportunity, either inside or outside of this House. I would like to hear the minister's reaction.

I would like to ask the minister if he has ever been asked his opinion, and ~~e minister has only been there a short while . Surely this government, surely the Minister of Justice for the Government of Canada has polled the provinces to find out their attitude and their views on decriminalizing marijuana. Should it be a criminal offence? If some person downtown tries it for the first time, a little toke, some evening feeling blue, should he then have a criminal record when he or she is charged, ~- Speaker.

I would submit, Your Honour, that a large number of our young people, a large nuwber and it is getting bigger all the time, have had their reputations ruined, who have a criminal record, who ar~ under continuous surveillance by the law enforcement officers because they were unlucky and unfortunate enough to get caught the only time, probably, that they ever had a toke.

It is something to think about, ~- Speaker, it could happen to your sons or your daughters or my sons or daughters. it could, Sir, and it is something I have to think about as a parent of four children, two teenagers and in a couple of years two more who will be teenagers. It is something that I have to think about very seriously. Do I as a parent, do I agree that marijuana should be removed from the Criminal Code? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 4672 ~ ·

Deca~~r 13, 1979 Tape No. 1859 Gl:!- 2 ~!R . NEAR~ : It should? :~e hon . gentleman asked me a point - blank question and I am never the type, Sir - I am net like the Goverrunent House Leader (~1r . Marshall) - ! never sidestep a quescion when it is asked of me. ! believe that at this stage of my life I would have to agree that marijuana should be removed and hash and cannabis should be ~amoved from the Criminal Coee . If I had to vote at this moment , i£ I had to tal<e a vote - now if you ask me about LSD or heroin or any of the hard stuff, I would say no, I would say no .

I believe my hon. friend might agree with me . I would say a good number of members of this House, if they were to get up and tell the truth of their mind, you would be surprised - the hon . ministers might be surprised the number of tokes that are taken right in this building, right in their own departments , right in their own offices . The H.iniscer of Justice (Hr. Ottenheimer) might be surprised. I do not know if it is going on now, but there was no trouble when you stepped off the elevator a couple of years ago to get the whiff, somebody was having a ':.oke, probably a ~o·.m prose ·cutor , 4673 ~·

December 13, 1979 Tape 1860 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: I do not know, but certainly sooebody on the Sixth Floor was having a toke. Well·, Mr. Speaker, if they want to have a toke more power to them, more power to them I would say. But the question I am asking the minister, I hope that the minister will not shy away from facing up to this matter which is one of the greatest problems and probably the greatest curse. The greatest cancer in our Newfoundland society today is the use of drUG~ in this Province. And politicians just shy away from it, just ignore it, hoping it will evaporate and go away.

But it never seems to go away, it seems now to be taken for granted, it is a fact of life. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Nothing at all. I travelled across this Province, sitting in a car, sitting in a club as a member of the House of Assembly, as a member of the Legislature where the laws are made, and somebody will come up to me and say, "Well how are you doing tonight?" I will say, "Not too bad". "Would you care for a toke?" And I will say, "No1 thanks 1 I do not feel in the mood this evening, I think I will have a little wine instead". How many times, Mr.

Speaker, has that happened to mei' I do not know .- whether they trust me, obviously they must, but it just goes to show you that the whole thing is being taken now as a fact. It is just a fact of life. And unlike the han. Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , the President of the Council, who does some pretty fancy stick handling, figure skating on thin ice, and who avoids issues, who is afraid to face up to these matters, I am not.

And that is why I raise it in the House today and I hope I will provoke other members to get up , I hope I will be able to motivate other members to get up on the~ feet and tell us their experiences and how they feel about people having a toke . AN HON. MEMBER (Inaudible) • MR.. NEA..ll.Y: Pardon? 4674

December 13, 1979 Tape 1860 A.."' HON. !<'.EMBER: (Inaudible) . NR. NEARY: Having a toke. How does the hon. gentleman - having a joint gentleman feel about it? PK - 2 Taking her up! how does the hen. It is a big problem, Sir, it is the biggest problem,! would say 1 in our Newfoundland society today, that and booze. And yet, - Wick, watch Wick now - yet, Mr. Speaker, politicians and governments, no matter what political stripe they are,they have a tendancy to steer away from these things, stay away from them hoping that they will just vanish in thin air. Well they are not going to go away, Mr.

Speaker, and it is about time that we started to take our responsibilies seriously in these matters. MR. SPEAKER (BUTT): If the hen. Minister of Justice speaks now he closes the debate on this bill. The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. arTENHEIMER: Mr. Speak,rr, as hen. "members are aware the principle of the bill is quite straightforward and that is that henceforth magistrates will be known as Provincial Court Judges, and that, really, is the total principle of the bill.

I suppose consequential to that would be the fact that the Clerks of the Court would ex office be Justices of the Peace,in other words 1 automatically,they would not have to apply for it. But two hon. gentlemen on the other side, Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) and LaPoile (Mr. Neary) have raised matters in general relating to the administration of justice and certainly I will comment briefly but not in any great detail on those matters. And a number of things raised I am in basic agreement with and probably some raised I am not in agreement with.

I believe both hon. members referred to the need for new facilities. The hen. member for Bonavista North pointed out the size of ~ne of the rooms used by the Trial Division of the Supreme Court and in general the court facilities and in some instances, the recording facilities in the Province. I certainly do not disagree with that1 there is need for improved court facilities. All I can point 4675

Decemb~ 13, 1979 Tape NO. 1860 IB-3 MR . OTTENHEL.'IER: out - and this is public knowledge - is chat in terms of capital expenditures , obviously 1 there is only so much to go ar.ound . The new police building, which was obviously necessary anQ will be beneficial, it cost abou t $4 mi~lion; renova ·tiorJs going o.n at the Penitentiary now ~., bier. is phase one of a four phase progr=e will come to over $1 million or around $1 million. No doubt these physical facility impr ovements are necessary a11d 1 indeed 1 we hope to do it.

It is a question of just how much capital money you have and you balance it off .between t:hese thi::lgs and sci)ools a!XI oospitals and roads . They are a.ll important . I cert:ain~y do not agree with any contE<m:ion that the.re are no votes in justice or therefore they should have minimal support, because one o.f the most basic, essential rigll.ts of a 4676 .· -· !

December 13, 1979 ~ape 1861 EC - l l1R. OTTENHEIHER: is nis legal rights ~~d his legal protection and his right to access to the court ~~d to have matters disposed of in a reasonable period of time. That is an important right and needs to be recognized. The han. member, also, from Eanavista North (Mr. Stirling) new - because I am mare or less going in L~e order in which both han. members spoke - A.."l H.JN. HEl'IBER: MR. OTTENHED!ER: It is the hon. t.-,e membel.· for Grand Bank. I am sorry. Yes, I am t."-linking of L'le previous and less fortunate endeavour. SOME HON. HEt·lBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

OTTENHED!ER: Actually, no problem with court facilities in Grand Bank, I understand. I have nat visited L>,e new one, but I c.ear it is a very fine facility. A..~other matter raised was with respect to police prosecutions. I do not think there is ani' disagreement ir. principle there eit.'1er 1 that they should be minimal and !!'.Ore and more prosecutions sho-u.ld be by Crown prosecutors, and we are moving in that direction. !low long it will take before the vast majority of cases will be prosecuted by non-police, it really would not be 90ssible for me to say.

With reference to ~~e han. member's statement L'"lat it did not seem appropriate that an accused who is innocent until proven guilty should, in the physical setting,be seated and flanked by police on both sides, I have not looked into the matter as of yet. I will. I suppose that comes from an English tradition, but I can see validit)• in the point he makes and it is a matter which I will look into.

I do not think I will go again into b~e question of enforcement of meter violations or the quota system because the han. member ~d others are aware of my views there and they know as well that there is a general review of law enforcement being made and that that matter is included therein. The han. the member for LaPoile (~lr. Neary l spoke on a number of matters. With respect to his allegation of plea bargaining, 4677 .· !

December 13, 1979 Tape 1861 EC - 2 ~1R. OTTENHEil'.ER: I always understood ~~at to be a kind of bargainin.;; in which counsel, two lawyers and the court is involved. H.'<.. iU:ARY : Oh, no (inaudible) • ----- MR. OTTENHEIMER: 'I'he hon. member does not mean that. The hon. gentleman is talking about negotiations between two counsel? ~!.R. NEARY: (Inaudible) should not be involved. MR. ROBERTS : Between two lawyers. ,'!R. OTTE~HEil-lER: Between two la~Jers, right.

Well, I did not knm• but the hon.. gentleman was referring - his remarks were suggesting that a judge, as well, involved in su~~ discussions. ~qell, plea bargaining, as such, certainly in Canada is not recognized as appropriate. I do not k.."lOW of any \~ay - ~!R. '-'El'.RY: It does go on. MR. OTTENHEit1ER: Vlell, I do not know of any •,;ay - ':.here is a thin line - or a line, how t:1in or how thic.'< - between counsel for two peopl~ negotiating, discussing in the oest interests of their cl~ent - HR. R03ERTS: ------- Apparently (inaudible) two solicitors (inaudible) into court (inaudible) .

For example, surely the minister would agree that the fellow who ;:>leaded guilty on t.~e Doyle stock tracing charges - Mr. Glass - .· ~JR. NEARY: There •das a deal. MR. ROBERI'S: There was a deal made on t:1 o.t. A..'! HON. ME..'ll>ER: Of course t.~ere was. !oiR. ROBERTS: I do not see that there is anything improper with it. The Crown took a guilty plea and t.~e Crown asked the court to impose a certain sentence; the judge imposed whatever sentence he thought fit and t.~e deal could only be between two la\.ryers but you cannot involve the court. t.ffi..

OTTEmlEUIER: What I am saying is that there is no way one can prohibit counsel for two parties to discuss and negotiate, and if they come to an agreement which they both consider to be in the best interests of t."leir clients, I am not sure that there is anyt.~ing one can do about that. 4678

Jec~~er 13, 979 Tape lcGl r.c - 3 M.E • :\DBB?.TS : have no ciouht the CrO\~r. in tJ at particular case said to the counsel for l:he ce fa:"' dane, !or t:h~.: man cha.rqed ".4il:h t:le crir..e, 'If you p ead. guill:"j , ·,;e •dll as:t ~.e court tc i~~se the followi~g sen~ence a~~ no more .' aut now, wha~ sentence the court i;nposed is 1.:;> to t.'le Chief .Justice. Eti.qht on : Obviously , nobody can tie we hands, or should atte:npt to ~ ie t:.he hands of a cow:t . Jln ci I eo no~ wish co re!er to any speci_fic case, bu't: if in an:_r - No , tnat is one that is recent. !-lR.

O'l'TEI:-r:lEI!-IER : anc negotiate toget.! er - :·1..'!.. :IDBi: RTS : R-emember one case . )lrt . OTTEtiriEI:1E. : ~I ell, whomever ciley h appen eo be - aJ'!.d !:!ley come to an agreell'.en t -...·hich they bo-..h believe to be in t:'le best interests · of t heir client , t.~en there is no •,;ay one can p~eclude t!:at or a lte,r eat. . I a:n no;: sure t hat the.re is any way one should ? ·reclude that . Who is t o say whemer h . is in ~l:le best 4679

December 13, 1979, Tape 1862, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, that is obviously what each lawyer, to use his professional judgement, that is the decision he has to come to4 71s a judgement it is a decis.l rm h"' }, "'"' +-o come to. MR. NEARY: In that case it may be in the best interest of ~~e Crown to have it done that way . MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, in any litigation the Crown is only one party. There is also an other party and if there is an agreement both have to come to the agreement. There is no agreement just between the Crown and the Crown.

However, the hon. member referred to the increase in crimes of violence and that is an unfortunate fact and something of which we are all aware. Certainly in our appropriation, budgetary-wise and in terms of policy, in terms of support for the law enforcement agencies, that is a factor, obviously, of which government and the Ministry of Justice would have to be aware. The han. member referred to psychiatric evidence. I think what he was suggesting was that perhaps too much weight is at times put on psychiatric evidence.

I do not think that he was suggesting that it should be inadmissible, I do not think he was suggesting that. I do not really think that you can dismiss psychiatric evidence. Whether it is given too much weight in certain instances, that is a question everybody, I guess, would have to answer for themselves. On the matter of soft drugs. I will say that about seven or eight weeks ago, I think,th .ere was a meeting of the ten provincial Justice Ministers and the federal minister. AN HON. MEMBER: Carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I want to answer my hon. colleagues comments. I do not wish to incur his wrath by not - MR.

NEARY: As the father of four kids, I am interested. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, I am the father of four 4680

December 13, 1979, Tape 1862, Page 2 -- apb MR. OTTENHEHIER: as well. This was discussed. These were the ministers - what they call responsible for criminal justice. In some provinces there are two. Federally there are two, the Solicitor General and the Attorney General. So the various provincial ~nisters and the v~o federal ministers discussed this. Obviously, there is a distinction between decriminalization and legalization. There is obviously a line of thought that it should be legalized but I would say one has not counted heads.

J11rC?.b_ably the other line of argument is that it be decriminalized, not be legal but that it no longer be regarded as criminal. Then there is a distinction between possession and trafficking. There are ~~ose who will still maintain that trafficking would be criminal but possession decriminalized. All I can say is - MR. NEARY: What was the position of this Province? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Well, when we went there we were informed fairly early on that sometime in December - so it should be coming soon - a major study would be undertaken by the Federal Department of Health and Welfare on, and this is a very recent study, health and other effects of these soft drugs and it was suggested that there was a great deal of new and additional evidence since the previous enquiry which was the LeDaine Royal COmmission made some years ago.

So I think I would be right in saying, although not every minister has exactly the same opinion, and it is improper to attribute an opinion to any single individual, the gent!ral consensus ... as that each of the Departments of Justice would wait until they had this latest evidence before a consensus on that question would be looked for. I would presume we will all be getting this document fairly soon. I understand,as well, that it will be a public document available to .the people of Canada. In other words, there was an agreement that no position would be taken on that 4681

December 1 3, 1979 , Tape 1862, Page 3 - - apb ~lR . OTTE:NHEIMER: availab l e. AN HON . ~lEMBER: AN HON . ME:.'IBER: MR . OTTENHEIMER : until this document was Hear , hear! Caxried. Now, since hon . members do not wish to bear any further comments from me - ~lR. NEARY: I do. I want to hear the answers . l'ihat. about the inconsistency in sentencing? MR . OTTENHEIMER: In general , I would have to agree that given simi1ar circumstance s there should be a 9eneral consistency . Obviously one cannot legislate that .

I think all I c~~ say there is that in general, given similar circumstances , there should be a general consistency , i t should no t depend upon one geoc;raphic area of the Province or the other. l'lhere dlere are differences they s hould depend upon different circumstances involved in the act not upon questions of geography. I think al.J. I can s ay there is that 4682

~ecernber 13, 1979 Tape No. 1863 HB - 1 HR. G. OTTEN"riEDIER: the Crown in yielding its decision to appea1 1 then L~at is ~~e way that the Crown , hopefully, can help to bring greater conformity, In other words, where it would appear there are cases where depending on geography sentences are radically different from other parts 1 then in order to develop consistency, apart from judges meeting ~~ernselves and discussing these things, which they do with themselves but not with us - apart from that,! think the only lever the Crown has is in its power to appeal. I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act, 1974," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No.22). !lotion, second reading of a bill, "An Ac~ To Remove Anomalies In Provincial Legislation That May Be Construed As Dis crimina tory." (Bill No. 21) • MR. SPEAKER(Si.mrns): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTE~iHEI!-lER: Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is need to say very much on this.

And certainly the purpose of it is described probably ~inently in Clause (ll of the Bill, "This Act may be cited as the Human Rights Anti-Discrimination Act. The purpose of it is to ~ring Provincial legislation within the provisions cf the Newfoundland Human Rights Code with respect to equality of the sexes. There are a number of statutes coverect. • This may not be exhaustive but at least it is selective.- Civil Services Act, ,community Councils Act, :he Adoption of Children Act, Public Service Pensions Act, Public Utilities Board Act, etc.

And what it is1 it is to give legal equality, statutory equality, between men and women for the purposes of these various acts. I can give one or two examples which I think will exemplify it.For ex~ple,there is a provision whereby upon injury to a public servant a payment and gratuity may be made to a male civil servant ' upon injury, and there is no reference to female, and all of these are similar kinds of equality seeking amendments. I move second reading. 4683

December 13, 1979 Tape Uo. 1863 !1B - 2 l·1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tne hon. member for Grand Bank. i~. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to have a couple of words to say in connection with the bill. It seems almost inconceivable 1 really , that we are bringing in this act in 1979, now almost 1980, and ~~ere is no doubt about it that the act says "r~ove anomalies in Provincial legislation that may be construed as discriminatory". I do not think there is any doubt about some of the provisions that this is curing as far as discrimination is concerned, Where

an act provides that an established woman civil servant should be retired on marriage is certainly outdated. Upon retirement, for example, a female civil servant gets so much in the way of a pension and a male something else. There is no question about it that this act- As I said 1 the only thing that surprises me is that it is 1979-1980 that this legislation is being ' brought before the House and not before now. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: One question and it will be very brief.

Section 3 of the bill in subsection (3) repeals

section 18 of the Public service Pensions Act. Now,the han. Minister of Justice (Mr. ottenheimer) - AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) the bill .· MR. ROBERTS: Yes.

Section 3, subsection (3) - i1aybe the best thing would be to look at explanatory note at the top• of the second page AN HON. ME.t>!BER: (inaudible) subsection. MR. ROBERTS : Now the hon. gentleman, when he occupied another position on this side of the House, will recall when, I .~~nk, that bill was passed. It may have been at a time w.hen the bil{ became law possibly- AN HON. MEMBER: ( Ina'.ldible) MR. ROBERTS : \ie are talking about removing

section 18 of the Public Service Pensions Act, okay? That particular

section was put in to deal with, I ~elieve, two or ~~ree individuals, and I am not sure if it was done while my hon. friertd was leader of the 4684

weceMoer 13, 1979 Tape :!o. 1363 :·1R. ROBERTS: Opposition or while ~·!r. Ja.T.es J .L. Green, Q.C. was leadar c.f the Opposit:ic,,. It was acne quite openly and 4685 ,•!B - 3 .·

Dece~ber 13, 1979 ED. PDBERTS : support on" both sices. Tape No. 1?.64 F.A - 1 quite properly anc I believe with I do not purpose to naroe t.'le individuals but I can if need be, I j~st want to make sure that any pensions that might have been paid to t.'lese people by virtue of those provisions will remain in effect. If my hen an~ lear~er friends will look at the top of the second page of the ex~lanatory notes. Ml HON. MEMBFR: (inaudible) ~IR. E. P.OBERTS: Well 1I ao not know what bill my learned friend is on - ! am on - A.~ FON. ~MBER: Sorry. fi!R. ~.

ROBERTS: he may not be able to answer at second reading but I am sure the answer will be in the affirmative it would be unthinkable- I am sure my learned frienf from St.John's East knows exactly of what I speak 1 I just wanted assurance, for the record 1 that, of course,any pensions that may have been paid under the provisions of that very particular and peculiar clause will, of course 1 remain to be paic during a lifetime of a person to whom they are now being paid. IIR. SPEI>-KER: (Simms) If the Minister of Justice sPeaks now he closes the debate. MR. OTTENHEIMEP.: Yes,Mr.

Speaker, I can certainly give the assurance the non. gentleman asked for. On motion, a bill, "

An Act To Remove Jl.nOITialies In Provincial Legislation Thatr May Be Const~;-d As Discriminatory "(Bill No. 21) , read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the Whole House presenfly by leave. MR. MARSHJI..LL: Order 13, Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharrnaceutial Association Act 9 • (Bill No. 14). !'.R. SPEAKF.F.: ' The hen. the Minister of Health. MR. W. House: Mr. Speaker, this is a reasonably simple amendment. Presently "The Pharrnaceutial Act" states - the 4686

Decerr~er 13, 1979 Tape flo. 1864 RA - 2 composition of it is twelve meml-ers, nine of 1A'hic!1 are elected and three appointecl. Then slit-section ~~o of

section eight says ~~at at least nine of these have to be from St. ~ohn's. We want to eliminate that and leave it open but in

section seventeen - sub-section one 1 we want to add that by-laws make provisions for regional representation on counciL I-t- is very simple so I do not think there is any further explanation neeoed on that. I!!R. E. ROBERTS : Mr. Spea~er, I want quite simply to say we think this bill is a reasonable and sensible one and ~e shall support it,Sir . On n-otion, a bill, " _an Act (E_ill No. 14) read a second time, ordered referred to a committee of the Whole House presently by leave. !!R. ~1.1\.P.SF.ALL: Order 21. Hotion, second reacing of a bill, "An Act To ~.I11end The Schools Act". (E.ill No.6). HR.

SPEJ!JCF:R: The han. ~inister for Education. gs. L. "'JEPGF: ~:r. Speaker, this bill contains b10 policy changes a'ld also provices for a mmber of amendments to tidy up -.the act to !:ring it in line ••i th c:!:lar.ges. Policy change is contained in

section one ,_.,hich amends

section ~,.;elve of t.,_,e School's Act .-·to shange the arranger.tent for School Boarc~s providing instructions for special childrel"., for handicapped c.'lildren so that it is no longer an option for School Boards but it is a requirement for the~ to make this provision. School BoEros in the Province 1 I think it is fair to say) n01<1 recogniz:.e t.'leir responsibility for most handicapped children, hut this change will make that more than discretionary, it uill I"ake it 'mandatory.

The change '"'ill give the Sc~ool Boards the option of either •d t.'1in their own schools provioing special classes or I!'.aking arrangements •~>'ith other School Eoarcs ' or ~lith other ecucational agencies or institutions, either wit.'lin this Province or in the rest of the country. But it will be mandatory for School Boards to provide special 4687 .,.

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1865 GH-1 MS. VERGE: classes for handicapped children. The other policy change is contained in

section 7, subsection 2, which says that the pro rata apportionment formula for school construction grants, whereby grants have to be apportioned among the different denom­ inations, does not apply to the designated native communities. In fact, the formula has never been applied to native communities. With the mutual agreement of the churches and government, this amendment simply brings into line the legislation with the practice that has always been followed. The other amendments are of a minor nature, which I will not go through in detail now. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Is it the pleasure of the House that - The hen. the member for the Strait of Mr. Speaker, I a~ sure it is the pleasure of the House and certainly our pleasure on this side. I think the minister - I believe it is the first bill she has introduced, I think that should be noted. I am obviously swayed by her eloquence and the force of her logic and the weight of her argument. We have overcome our reluctance to support this measure, and we do support it wholeheartedly.

I think it was worth noting, and I certainly do not find it objectionable that this bill, to a very small extent, will allow a variation in the denominational system to the extent of the distribution of grants to be used in respect, I believe, of Inuit children and Eskimo children in the Labrador part of the Province. I gather that has been approved by the Integrated Educational Committees, and I think it is entirely appropriate.

This is money that may, in fact, come through the Province but is, I believe, originally from the voluminous and, hopefully,~bottomless coffers of the Government of Canada and thus is all the more welcome. It is a change in the denominational system and that is important, but since it has been done with the consent of all concerned it certainly should get the support of the House, and we on this side will support it, Sir. 4688 .· !

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1865 GH-2 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Schools Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently by leave. (Bill No. 6) MR. SPEAKER: (SillmlS) If I may interrupt the hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) before proceeding with the next order, I would like to advise hon. members that I have received notice of three matters for debate at 5:30 when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House: notice given by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr.

Flight) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), and the subject matter is the Upper Salmon project; notice given by the hon. member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. Power), and the subject matter, employment of staff at North Sydney, of information officers and animal inspectors; and the third matter, notice given by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Acting Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Goudie), and the subject matter, the Fisheries Loan Board matters. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President of the Council. Order 24, Bill No. 8. On motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Fuel Oil Tax Act". (Bill No. 8) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this should be a popular move, I think, because it gets rid of a tax. In effect, this act deals only with bunker fuel because other forms of fuel are taxed under the Gasoline Tax Act. Now, over the years, most companies ~d so on that would be affected by this tax, in actual fact, have been granted an exemption.

In~ fact, this particular act, as it presert~y stands, only applies to the processing of ore for upgrading purpos~s. Now there is only one firm or one organization in the Province that is so involved and that is Advocate Mines. So, in effect, Advocate Mines - AN HON. MEMBER: Bill No. 8? 4689 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1865 GH-3 DR. COLLINS: Bill No. 8, "The Repeal Of 'I~he Fuel Oil Tax Act" - so there is a very small amount of tax. It is anomalous that this should apply just to the one organization and the proposal, therefore, is that this tax act be repealed. 4690

December 13, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) of Belle Isle. :1R. ROBERTS: Tape 1866 EC - 1 The han. tne rne:t:lber for the Strait We concur. ~~e only thing that would please us more is a bill to repeal ~~e gasoline tax now L~at it has been made all L~e higher by the kind effor~s of the present Government of Canada. It will be interesting to see tonight whether it is going to be the future Government of Canada or not. But,obviously, there is an anomaly in the way L~e fuel oil tax is now being levied and there is no reason why it should be borne by the only corporate person that apparently does bear it.

It would be even nicer if we could repeal tile Gasoline 'l'ax Act, then we would really be able to give some enthusiastic support to tile minister's request• We will support the bill. On rnotion, a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Fuel Oil Tax Act," (Bill No. 8), read a second time, referred to a Committee of L~e Whole House, presently by leave. MR. M.~HALL: Order 27, Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act," (Bill No. 25). HR. S?EAKE:!t: (Simms) The hon. the M.i.;1ister of Labour and ~1anpower. HR. DI~"N: Hr.

Speaker, these amend.:nents that we are proceeding with here are, number one, to correct an anomaly - that anomaly is the anomaly that - !1R. ROBERTS: word? MR. onr.~: l>H ao;.;. :1Li8E~: himself. t1R. DINN: MR. N. WINDSOR: is an anomaly. MR. DINN: Would the minister care to define ~~~t Well, I am not an anomaly detector. The minister may be an anomaly I may be. The han. tile member for LaPoile (Hr. l>ieary) It is quite obvious. I can give the hon. member an example - the han . t.."le member for LaPoile is an anomaly. An anomaly in a sense but a nugget (Inaudible) 4691

Decerr~er 13, l9i9 Tape 1866 EC - 2 !•!R. r::r:m: A nugget in the miest of - rish~ . !-~R. NEARY: Oh how he loves me. HR. DINN: I just clarified for ~~ e han. manber. t·!R. NEA.~Y: (Inaudible! as an anomaly .!-!R. DINN: That is what I said, a nugget in ~~e midst of - well, the hen. member did not finish it. Mr. Speaker, the amendments that we are looking for here 1 which we are ·asking t.he hen.

House to pass are, number one, the anomaly with respect to people who are workers in a oo:npany in i:lewfoundland; that company is paying the Workers Compensation, are being assessed and paying and supposedly covering that worker. ~~6 if the worker 1 previously 1 had gone outside the Province working for the same company - gone outside t.,_,e Province for wore than eight months - if he had an accident he would not be covered by Workmen's Compensation ~y I virtue of the piece of legislation that we have on t.he books right no~l.

So we are attempting to change ~~at such t.hat if a wor ker is paying \qorkmen's Compensation or the company is being assessed and is paying, and that worker, still omrking for tJ1e same compa.TJ.y in ;'lewfoundland, moves outside of Ne\-lfoundland for more than eight months, we feel he should be covered by Workmen's Compensation if he is not covered in ~~e ot.~er place. That is arr~ndment number one. It is, I think, a very justifiable amendment. The other amendments all relate to compensation that would be paid to people, and assessments on t."le cOI!'f>anies.

Those are compensations - as a matter of fact, we had a bill before the House previously this year that increased eoe compensation from $14,000 to $16,000. We want to do that effective January 1, 1980 so that a worker will get at least - I believe 75 per cent of that would be $12,000 - so that his cornper~~hl~ earnings would go up.

There are other items, as I announced here in t.'l.e House earlier this Spring - early S\li1111\er - t.'lat we asked Dr. ~!ay, who was the former chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board and whom I am delighted to see in the House today, to review the Worker's Compensation Act and make recommendations. And Dr. May has been working on that and will 4692

De ceni:J.e r 13 , 19 79 Tape 1866 =:c - 3 i·IR. DI ~ il-!: b e work ing on tha-c in tl\.e com.l.ng rr.or. s.

And : e •h•ill be making reccm;'lencat ions to us with respe ct. t:o inc=easir.g allo>Jances for ,.,iclows and people wilo are affect:ec oy t .. e l~orkers Compensauon Board . l'lhen these requests or ame:lci;':\ent:S come in, so- oi t hem ~>ill req:lll:a th-at '"e i:1craase the co:npensation , and we woulc 1 ike t:o : ave the Rouse to permit t:.'le L.ieutenant-Gover:lor in COuncil to increase these i ':ems, all t.."le various i !:ems , as a matter of f act, in all the clauses frol:l Clause , o. 46, I believe, through to Clause :~o . 76 - t:he Lieut :snar.:t. - Governor :Ce allowec or permi~ted to increase ese when t..'le re commendat:ions are made co us oy i)r . :1ay and cile 'ilo.::ke.::s Compensat:ion !SoarC.. 4693

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1867 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, we will support this bill. Anything that will improve the level of compensation that will be received by workers in this Province we certainly will support this kind of measure and support any kind of structure, any kind of re­ organization that has got to be brought about to bring this into effect. Just a few remarks though. I do not know how important this particular piece of legislation is 1 particularly with respect for the people out of the Province.

I do not know how much of a demand was brought on the minister or how much pressure there was or how many situations there are that necessitated this kind of legislatio~. I would like to or ~~uld prefer to have seen some action on the review of 1977. There are many things in this review that were made, many suggestions, many recommendations made that have not been acted upon yet and maybe the minister can correct me but I never saw the particular recommendation to which this legislation addresses itself today. I did not see that one there.

It could be but I think I had read the thing through on two or three occasions and•r never saw that particular point which leads me to believe that maybe this was not a major concern to workers in this Province. But here we have a tremendous list of suggestions and recommendations that are of a concern to the workers of this Province and the goverr.ment have been just sitting on this particular review since 1977. Now,I understand that there is to be another review, that every five years there is a review. MR. DINN: No, we have had review in the existing legislation and recommendations have been made. MR.

LUSH: But do we not have another review? Is this gone now? Do we not have another review in 1980? I thought there was a - MR. DINN: It is not a review, it is a matter of taking the recommendations in that and taking the existing legislation and compiling it and bringing in a new act. MR. LUSH: Right. Well 1whatever 1 my understanding 4694

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1867 IB-2 MR. LUSH: was that every five years we would set up a review coiTmittee to look into these matters. So we have had one in 1972 and now one in 1977, this is 1979rfast approaching 1980,and nothing done on this particular act and I would like to see the minister - or little done - I would like to see the minister addressing himself to the recommendations here, recommendations that concern the workers of this Province, wrongs that they want to correct and anomaliesJreally,that they want to get straightened out as brought forward in these recommendations and not yet done.

So again,as I say 1 I have not seen this particular one. No doubt it is important, otherwise the minister would not have done it. It is done to meet the requirement of some workers I expect 1 how many I do not kno" but, however, there must have been some pressure put on the minister, there must be some workers in this Province that are affected by this particular piece of legislation and it does, in that sense,appear to be good legislation-if it is going to help Newfoundlanders. And for tha.t we are pleased.

But we want to again reiterate the vast number of recommendations here that have not been acted upon and I would like to see - this is the legislation I would like to have seen today. And the other aspect, of course, of setting up a structure to bring increases to workers; well,, then we are certainly in agreement with that. As I said before, any structure that will expedite, any structure that will make easier, giving payment to or increasing the amount of money that workers in this Province will get as a result of injury or whatever, then we are all for that. So,· Mr. Speaker, we support the bill. MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, further to what my hon. colleague has said there is a

section of this bill that is a major departure from ~adition,as my hon. friend who likes to be so nasty once in a while knows, that heretofore, Mr. Speaker, matters involving the amendments to the Workmen's Compensation Act had to be brought before this legislature. And what the minister is asking for here 4695

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1867 IB-3 MR. NEARY: is to place in the hands of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council which is the Cabinet,the right to make decisions on whether or not there should be increases in the Workmen's Compensation benefits. Now, Mr. Speaker, 4696

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1868 GH-1 MR. NEARY: here we are, a week or ten days before Christmas, into the House putting legislation through as fast as time, like clockwork it is going through, being asked to rubberstamp legislation. Here is a major departure from tradition the minister made very little reference to when the hon. gentleman stood in his place. He spent more time emphasizing the fact that workers who go putside the Province for eight months or more will receive their compensation. Now I, too, Sir, would like to welcome Dr.

May to the gallery, and I must say that I was tremendously impressed recently to be invited and to be taken on a guided tour of the new Workmen's Compensation Building down here behind the old General Hospital, that I would consider to be the godchild of Dr. May. It is a magnificent building, a beautiful building. I understand that the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Culture will rent space on the second or third floor of that building. It is too bad, Mr .

Speaker, that the Workmen's Compensation Board did not put up a building adjacent to Confederation Building and rent office space to the Newfoundland Government instead of the Newfoundland Government going downtown and being ripped off by some of these downtown merchants. Mr. Speaker, as I say, this is a major departure from tradition, and I am not sure if I go along with this or not because, Mr.

Speaker, before this bill - and ~~is is getting the thin end of the wedge in - before this bill was brought before this House, every item, every matter in connection with Workmen's Compensation, including increasing the assistance which could be a nonpolitical thing - they can be construed now as being political - the government can play politics if, once we approve this amendment - the government can play politics the same as they do with people on social assistance - before an election they can fling out an increase. The Lieutenant-Governo~ . ~. Cvuncil can do it by Order in Council.

It does not have to be brought before this House, so we have to watch what we are doing here, Mr. - AN HON. ME1'1BER: Have to send them a little note. MR. NEARY: Pardon? 4697

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1868 GH-2 AN HON. MEMBER: Send them a little note. MR. NEARY: And send a little note in the cheque saying the government have decided, not the House of Assembly, the government have - AN HON. MEMBER: Signed by the minister. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I never did it in my life, no, I certainly did not. They could put a little note in on the eve of an election and tell the people that the government have decided, the Cabinet has decided to increase Workmen's Compensation. Now, I do not know if members are aware of the structure of the Workmen's Compensation Board or not.

The Workmen's Compensation Board does not answer to the government or to the minister, for that 11U3.tter1 the Workmen's Compensation Board answers to this House. The Workmen's Compensation Board, Mr. Speaker I do not know if Your Honour is aware of it - is a creature of this House. Decisions involving the Workmen's Compensation Board are brought before this House by the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn). He is only a tool whereby the Workmen's - AN HON. MEL'IBER: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: No, that is not in an uncomplimentary way that I am saying that, Sir.

The minister is only the machinery, whereby the Workmen's Compensation Board co~~unicates its information, its requests, its recommendations to this House. The minister has no jurisdiction over the Workmen's Compensation Board, other than to report on the activities of the Board to this House. The Chairman of the Workmen's Compensation Board could kick the minister out of his office if he wanted to, but he would not. He would probably be more courteous. AN HON. MEMBER: Especially (inaudible). MR. NEARY: That is right.

He would probably be more courteous to the minister because he knows that,if the minister wanted to, he could bring in amendments to the Workmen's Compensation Act, and the government with the majority could put them through the House. So, in the final analysis, the Workmen's Compensation Board, if they were not kind to the minister and courteous to the minister, could do 4698

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1868 GH-3 MR. NEARY: themselves an awful lot of harm in the long run. Let us face up to one thing, Mr. Speaker, that the Workmen's Compensation Board answers only to this House. What we are being asked to do now is to remove a major decision from the floor of this House and put it in the hands of the Cabinet, that is what we are being 4699 .·

December 13, 1979 Tape No. 1869 IB-1 MR. NEARY: asked to do and I would not be so quick, Mr. Speaker, to say whether or not I support that kind of legislation. I am not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing. With the track record of this government it is probably a bad thing. It could be abused and misused. It could become the subject of political overtones in the future. I think everything in connection with the Workmen's Compensation Board should be kept on the floor of this House, should be kept in this House. The government since 1972 itave been chipping away, Mr.

Speaker, at the decision making process of this House and have been moving things ou~off the floor of the House. We saw in the last session of the House, we saw the estimates put out in the dungeons and dark rooms of Confederation Building. We saw all kinds of other decisions made recently where the authority of this Legislature is being removed and now here is another example of where an amendment is being made to

an act to put the authority in the hands of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to make decisions in connection with increases in Workmen's Compensation benefits. And I believe, my own personal feeling about this bill - and there is no dissension in the ranks about this part of the bill anyway - is that I do not agree with it. It is not going to expedite matters, not one bit. There was never any problem getting agreement in this House on increasing workmen's Compensation benefits whenever there was a bill brought before the House.

And if the cost of living did rise it is only a matter of bringing in the bill and making it retroactive. No problem at all. Why must we now decide, Mr. Speaker, to remove this authority from the House of Assembly? And it comes in in the form of a little innocent piece of legislation, a week or ten days before Christmas. As I said, Sir, I am rather reluctant to put anything in the hands of this government with their tracK·record and the way they play around and fool around with people's feelings and with the way they play tneir politics. Nothing is beyond this crowd, Sir.

We saw that recently when they put an illegal candidate in a by-election. So why would they not before the next electior_ send out the envelopes, put the note in saying the 47CO

December 13, 1979 Tape No . 1869 IB-2 MR . NEARY: Premier .and the Cabinet have approved an increase in workmen 1 s Compensation benefits without any reference to the Legislature of this ;;>rovince . The workmen 1 s Compensation Board answers to this Province and not to the Cabinet and not to the minister and it is about time that we .realized that and not take these matter 's and treat them so lightly . This is a major change and members should lock at it: in that wa.y and not: just: brush over it as if it was nothing. ~ffi. SPEAKER (BUTT) : ll the h'l:: .

J.li.nister of Labour and Manpower speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. HR. OUIN : Hr. Speaker, I will onl y ta·ke a minut e or so. The fact of the matter is,to ans• .... er the bon. member for Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) 1 that many of the recommendations that were made in the l977 ~eport have been alread y approved and have been established. The han . member f or La.Poile (Mr . Neary) , the fact of the matter is, on the Order Paper earlier this Summer we had a pie c e of legislation with re·spect to the items that we are talking about now.

The only i tem that we addressed at that til'ne was inc r easing compens at ion ar.d assessments from $14,000 to \>16, 000 . At that point in time t.he HQuse closed , we did not get the amendments throu gh and people are stil.l waiting and wonde.ri ng. That is just on the compensation assessments . Now1 the hon. member for LaPoile i s 100 p-er cen t correct when he says 4701 .:.

December 13, 1979 Tape 1870 MB - l MR. DINN: that we can pass them now and we can make them retroactive. But some people have been out tl1.ere for the past year not knowing whether it is going to be passed or not, not knowing whether they can, for example, have the money or whether they have to go out and borrow on the money ~~ey would have gotten, and I think that that kind of a delay,really,is not necessary. Now I understand - ;1R. NEARY: He called the election C:ate. MR.

DINN: Well, I understand the hon. member would not have wanted us to c~l the election when we did, and the outcooe was not pleasing to him, MR. NEA.«Y: 'ilell to me it was very pleasing. H.R. DINN: To me, what we are talking about now are ite~s that are presently before us and will be coming before us in the next months and years. And I think it is a very-- For example, in this particular situation it has taken from last February to now to get this piece of legislation ~.rough, and I do not think we need to have that delay. MR. NEARY: That is the government's fault, not .· our fault. MR.

DINN: I think, whoever is at fault the fact of the matter is we have lots of things on the ?rder Paper now, and we need not have the delays for the things that we are attempting to do here. So I appreciate the hon. member for LaPoile, I appreiciate his ·-- _,_ .. ---1. comments, I think his fears can be rested,and will be, as a result of passing this piece of legislation. And I think the proof will be in the puddi~g the first of January 1980