British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, April 16, 2008

H0416pm-01

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, April 16, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 31, Number 1 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon.

Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon.

Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon.

George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General and Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations............... Hon. John van Dongen Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L)........................................................................ Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas............................................................................... John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Wednesday, April 16, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Statements..................................................................................................................... .......................................................... 11439 Shooting at Virginia Tech Hon. M.

Coell Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11439 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 11440 Penticton ValleyFirst Vees Hon. R. Thorpe L.

Krog Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 11440 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 11440 Penticton ValleyFirst Vees R.

Cantelon Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 11440 Resource Road Act (Bill 30) Hon. R. Coleman Environmental (Species and Public Protection) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 29) Hon. B. Penner Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 11441 Cythera Transition House Society M. Sather Port Moody Festival of the Arts I. Black Len Shepherd H.

Bains Women of Excellence award recipients M. Polak Burnaby Children's Centres Society R. Chouhan Tai chi R. Lee Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 11443 Funding for child protection services C. James Hon. T. Christensen L. Krog N. Simons Victim services in domestic violence cases C. Trevena Hon. J. van Dongen D. Thorne Hon. W. Oppal Handling of domestic violence cases in justice system M. Farnworth Hon. W. Oppal Bountiful and polygamy issue C. Evans Hon. W. Oppal

Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 11447 Chair of the board of directors of ICBC, letter Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................. 11447 R. Chouhan N.

Simons Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 11448 Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 17) G. Gentner Hon. J. van Dongen M. Farnworth L. Krog M. Karagianis H.

Bains Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 11464 Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 17) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................. 11464 Transportation Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 14) Hon. K.

Falcon Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 11466 Estimates: Ministry of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy (continued) D. Cubberley Hon. S. Bond S. Simpson J. Brar D. Chudnovsky

11439 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 The House met at 1:32 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Statements SHOOTING AT VIRGINIA TECH Hon. M. Coell: One year ago today 27 students and five faculty members lost their lives on a campus at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, Virginia. Campuses across Canada and the United States and around the world are today mourning the terrible and tragic loss of life on April 16, 2007. Stu- dents, faculty, university administrators and all citizens mourn this senseless incident of violence on a campus.

We have com e to k now campu ses of hig her learn- ing as safe havens against threats from the outside. We know that in this day and ag e, that is not necessarily true. We as communities must do everything in our power to keep our campuses safe. I ask all members of the House to join me in refl ecting upon those lives lost and to commit to maintain our efforts to ensure a safe education system for all our citizens. Introductions by Members H.

Bains: From the best constituency in the province, Surrey-Newton, there are 31 students from Cornerstone Montessori joined by their teachers Jenny Petropoulos and Catherine Mahoney. They are visiting this hall here to watch us and see how we do our business. I ask this House to please extend our warmest welcome to them all. M. Polak: Today in the gallery we are joined by my constituency assistant from Langley, Cathy Gibbs, and her parents Roy and Doreen Purssell. Would the House please make them welcome. [1335] H. Bloy: It's my pleasure to make an announcement to the House today.

My wife and I became grandpar- ents for the first time earlier this morning. I do know my wife's name is Anita, but they haven't named the baby boy yet. He weighed in at 10 pounds, 7 ounces. Hon. G. Campbell: It gives me great pleasure to introduce Roy and Doreen Purssell of Hope, who are visiting the Legislature today. It's a very auspicious day for them, and their beha viour is exemplary. They are celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary. I'm sure today they will be reflecting on 60 years of experi- ences with their family.

Th ey'll be sharing stories — most of them they won't share with us in the Legisla- ture — but we hope they have a great day and have many, many more days of celebration like this. Congratulations. Hon. C. Hansen: I had the pleasure this morning of meeting with 26 students from the Anchor Point Montessori School on the front steps. They had some great questions and some great ideas. They are joined by several of their parents and also two of their teach- ers, Victoria Lowry and Heidi Wilson. Will the House please make them welcome. J.

Yap: It's a real pleasure to introduce a wonderful group of British Columbians who are visiting Victoria from various parts of Metro Vancouver. Many of these f i n e p e o p l e w e r e c l o s e c o l l e a g u e s o f m i n e i n m y p a s t business career. Today in the gallery are members of the TD Bank re- tirees association. They are in Victoria for their regular retirees luncheon meeting.

With us today are Jack and Donna Savenye, Bill and Marnie Hennan, Joan and Richard Whitman, John and Yolande Fulton, Sheldon and Diane Johnson, Duncan and Lorraine Humphries, Lee and Anne Atwater, Les and Beatrice Starheim, Ward and Norma Redditt, Dan and Marion Gallant, Gloria Sweeder, Judy Smith, Dave Ballentine and Herta Krause. Would all members extend a warm welcome to all of them. Hon. B. Penner: It's my pleasure today to introduce Craig Daniell, Laurie Chortyk and Sara Dubois from the BCSPCA.

They're joined in the gallery, I'm told, by Chris Hamilton and Scott Black of the Ministry of Environment, who collectively have provided valuable input as we've worked to update the Wildlife Act over the last year. I will have more to say about that in a few moments. Would the House please make them very welcome. J. McIntyre: I also enjoyed a school visit today with the students from Myrtle Philip Community School in Whistler. They've actually been here since Monday, having a wonderful tour of Victoria. They had a great tour this morning of the build ing.

Same as the Minister of Economic Development, I had excellent questions, including questions about my earrings. It's always a great, great privilege to have the students here to learn more about the history and what we do as MLAs. I hope the House will make them welcome too. R. Lee: In the gallery today we have five visitors from the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada. They are the director of Pacific region, Rod Edwards, and also the director of the Victoria branch, Lesley Davies, and members Miles Ostler, Arthur Bates and Grace Bates. Will the House please join me to give them a very warm welcome. K.

Whittred: Mr. Speaker, on your behalf, I am pleased to welcome and introduce 17 teachers from across British Columbia who have been selected to participate in the sixth B.C. Teachers Institute on Par- liamentary Democracy. They are with us today in the gallery. They will be with us for the remainder of this week, expanding their knowledge of our parliamentary and political systems. They ar e joined by three of their peers who are acting as facilitators: Ms. Beverley McEwan, Mr. Kirk Longpre and Ms. Erika Moser.

11440 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 I trust that many of you will have the opportunity to meet with them during the institute, specifically at a luncheon hosted tomorrow by the Minister of Educa- tion. Would you all please join me in making them feel very welcome. Hon. L. Reid: We're joined in the gallery today by Jennifer Burnett, who is the CEO and registrar of the College of Dental Hygienists. I would ask the House to please make her welcome. [1340] B.

Bennett: I'd like to introduce to the House two gentlemen who are here from the Interior Lumber Manufacturers Association: Jim Hackett, who is the executive director, and Mark Semeniuk, who oper- ates in the West Kootenay. I don't know if Mark is the president or not. If he's not, he should be. This is an industry association made up of the little guys, mostly value-added operators from the southern interior of the province. They're great people, and we're glad that they come and vi sit us every now and again. So please help me make them feel welcome. Tributes PENTICTON VALLEYFIRST VEES Hon. R.

Thorpe: I'm pleased to rise in the House to- day, on behalf of the Speaker and myself, to acknowledge the rich hockey history in Penticton. Penticton is the home of the B.C. Hockey Hall of Fame and is well known for its 1955 world hockey champions, the Penticton Vees. Adding to this rich history is their recent victory over the Nanaimo Clippers. The Penticton ValleyFirst Vees Junior A hockey club is now the Junior A British Columbia champions. This week they will be facing the winners of the Alberta Junior Hockey League.

I would ask all mem- bers of this House, including the members from Nanaimo, to join with the Speaker and myself in wish- ing Penticton ValleyFirst Vees the best of luck in their quest for victory at the Doyle Cup. Mr. Speaker: Would the member for Nanaimo like to comment? L. Krog: In the spirit of great sportsmanship that characterizes the Nanaimo Clippers and on behalf of the member for Nanaimo-Parksville, we congratulate the Penticton team and wish them well. Introductions by Members L.

Mayencourt: I, too, would like to welcome the 30 students and six adults that are here from Anchor Point Montessori under the direction of Miss Aubrey. This is a very wonderful Montessori in my riding, and I'm very glad that they could join us today. I look forward to meeting with you folks a little bit later today. Tributes PENTICTON VALLEYFIRST VEES R. Cantelon: I, too, would like to congratulate the team from Penticton. They wrested the championship from the Nanaimo Clippers, and as the famous sports words say: wait until next year. Introduction and First Reading of Bills RESOURCE ROAD ACT Hon. R.

Coleman presented a message from His Hon- our the Administrator: a bill intituled Resource Road Act. Hon. R. Coleman: I move that Bill 30 be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. R. Coleman: I'm pleased to introduce the Re- source Road Act today. This act will enhance the safe use of resource roads for workers in all industrial sectors by developing common standards for road construction, maintenance and deactivation . The act will encourage resource road permit holders to communicate with each other about their use of resource roads and will enable restrictions on high-traffic roads.

This act will also provide a standardized, consistent approach to regulating resource roads across the province using results-based regulations. Right now operators in different industrial sectors such as forestry, oil and gas, and mining comply with five different acts and regula- tions. Given that these industries often use the same roads, there has sometimes been conflict and confusion. To address this, the Resource Road Act consolidates road-related provisions into a single statute and will result in a single permit system for industrial users.

This act will also support our industries with a predict- able, fair and cost-effective framework. Finally, the act will preserve the public's right to use resource roads on Crown lands. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 30, Resource Road Act, introduced, read a first t i m e a n d o r d e r e d t o b e p l a c e d o n o r d e r s o f t h e d a y f o r second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. ENVIRONMENTAL (SPECIES AND PUBLIC PROTECTION) STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 Hon. B.

Penner presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Environmental (Species and Public Protec tion) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008. [1345]

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11441 Hon. B. Penner: I move that Bill 29 be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. B. Penner: I'm pleased to introduce the Environ- mental (Species and Public Protection) Statutes Amend- ment Act, 2008. This bill contains amendments to the Environmental Management Act and to the Wild- life Act. I'll begin by noting a few of the amendments to the Wildlife Act.

Amendments to that act will provide the government for the very firs t time with new authority to regulate the possession of alien species such as large carnivores, venomous snakes, primates and other ani- mals and fish that can harm British Columbians and our native wildlife and wildlife habitat. In addition, authorities in the Wildlife Act are amended, along with consequential amendments to the Park Act, to increase the number of wildlife officers protecting wildlife and wildlife habitat in British Columbia.

Park rangers will be given new authority to authorize and monitor hunting and fishing activities to ensure those activities are being done in compliance with the act. Other amendments will provide improved authorities concerning the feeding and attracting of wildlife, doubling the fines for most offences — in fact, raising the maximum penalty up to $250,000 for a fine and two years in jail on first convictions and up to $500,000 and three years in jail for subsequent convictions for illegal activities such as poaching.

There will be additional changes to regulations in terms of authority for the guide-outfitter industry and changes to hunting rules and regulation-making authority for limited-entry hunting and other issues. This bill also contains amendments to the Environ- mental Management Act. These amendments include confirming the government's authority to respond to spills that can affect wildlife and wildlife habitat in the short or long term and recovering costs associated from the party or parties respon sible for the spill.

Other amendments to the act concern improvements to regulation- making authorities to enable comprehensive codes of practice and other results-based regulatory regimes under the legislation. Mr. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 29, Environmental (Species and Public Protection) Statutes Amendment Act, 2008, introduced, read a first t i m e a n d o r d e r e d t o b e p l a c e d o n o r d e r s o f t h e d a y f o r second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) CYTHERA TRANSITION HOUSE SOCIETY M. Sather: Abuse is not simply physical violence, and it is not just a conflict between two people. It is a systemic pattern of behaviour used to establish power and control over another person. Many women and children are not abused in just one way. They are physically, emotional, sexually and economically abused over and over again in many different forms. Cythera Transition House Society is a non-profit organization providing services to abused women and children in Maple Ridge an d the surrounding area.

Established in 1983, Cythera House provides the basic necessities for up to 30 days, with staffing 24 hours a day, and provides emotional support in a safe, secure and non-judgmental environment. Residents of Cythera House are provided with practi- cal help and information, linking them up with services such as housing, legal rights, income assistance, child care and other community resources. In addition, a children's support worker is available to assist children in dealing with the very traumatic changes in their lives.

Cythera House also offers an off-site counselling centre, second- stage-housing program and thrift store. Women who seek out the services of Cythera House are survivors of trauma, sometimes with a lifetime of abuse issues. Very early in life they have learned that it is not okay to have needs and feelings and end up fo- cusing on the needs of thei r abuser at the expense of their own identity. Funding for programs and places of refuge is im- perative for women and childr en to transition out of the cycle of abuse. With support, women and children will have a place to go to heal like Cythera House.

PORT MOODY FESTIVAL OF THE ARTS I. Black: One of the four municipalities that I so proudly represent is Port Moody, which prides itself as City of the Arts. Today I congratulate the work of the Port Moody Arts Centre Society, specifically for last week's 11th annual festival of the arts. Led by society president Lynne Murray, executive director Brenda Finlayson and festival chairman Darryl Tolentino, the festival offers a spectrum of visual, media and performing arts and a variety of forums for participa- tion.

The festival allows Port Moody to proudly showcase its belief that arts, culture an d recreation are integral to creating healthy communities. [1350] I've received a lot of letters from artists across B.C. since our government announced the $150 million arts endowment fund, which stands to take the B.C. Arts Council up over 50 percent. We celebrated this yet again last Friday, when I he lped open the festival, and the Tri-Cities arts community is thrilled.

Moreover, one of the e-mails I received, thanking us from the bottom of her heart, was from a terrific young Canadian singer–guitar player, Nelson's Aspen Switzer, who also performed at the festival. The festival also allowed the community to tour studios of 33 artists and experience music ranging from Canadian soul singing sensat ion Divine Brown to Will Millar, founder and lead of the legendary Irish Rovers. I attended the sold-out Will Millar show. He has not lost any of his charm, wit or showmanship. When

11442 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 y o u r e f l e c t , a s m a n y o f u s h e r e c a n , o n t h e m a g i c o f Will and The Irish Rovers, their top CBC television program and their famous unicorn song that we still sing to our children and grandchildren, you can appre- ciate the depth and diversity of the talent that the festi- val attracts.

Thanks to Port Moody fo r once again playing host to emerging and established talents alike and for re- minding us of the timeless lessons of our youth: "There were green alligators and long-necked geese, some humpty-back camels and some chimpanzees, some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born, the loveliest of all was the unicorn." Thanks, Will. LEN SHEPHERD H. Bains: For me, every trip to the Newton Seniors Centre is a learning experience. My last trip was no exception. I've had many conversations with Connie Cleaver and her husband Al over the years.

The other day in conversation, I was absolutely astonished to hear that Connie's father was Leonard Alec Shepherd. Len Shepherd was a Surrey municipal council member from 1932 until 1937. In 1937 he was elected as a Member of the Legislative Assembly serving the Delta riding, covering the area of Richmond, Delta, Surrey and Langley. In his very first term as MLA, Len Shepherd presented a petition to this very House with over 3,100 names from the people of the Fraser Valley, asking that the new Pattullo Bridge be free of tolls.

V e r y q u i c k l y , h e b e c a m e a n a v i d a d v o c a t e f o r t h e working people. I'll read some quotes from the daily press of the day. The Province read: "This government's budget may be good for the bond holders but is billed largely at the expense of the municipalities and the misery of people." The Times reported: "Shepherd wants aid for munici- palities and said the Fraser Valley farmers are working themselves to death trying to pay their taxes." Watching this House operate for the last three years reminds me of the French proverb: the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Len Shepherd was awarded Surrey's first Good Citizens Award. Len Shepherd Secondary School and Len Shepherd Lions Manor were named in his memory. I t i s a n a b s o l u t e p l e a s u r e f o r m e t o r e m e m b e r L e n Shepherd's contribution to our province and to the cities of Surrey and Delta and pay tribute to a local son who played his part to make this province a better place to live and work. I would like to thank Connie and Al Cleaver for the informative conversation we had a couple of weeks ago. WOMEN OF EXCELLENCE AWARD RECIPIENTS M.

Polak: Last Wednesday the 11th annual Women of Excellence Awards were held in at Newlands Golf and Country Club in Langley.

Organized and spon- sored by the Valley Women's Network, the awards recognize outstanding women in a variety of catego- ries: in the arts and cultur e category, Marika Siewart, CEO of Emerton Records; in the sports and recreation category, Sheryl McIntosh, fo under of the Fort Langley Canoe Club; in the community and humanitarian service category, Marilyn Piticco, coordinator of the Stroke Recovery Association; in the women of vision category, Rachel Cram, dire ctor of Wind and Tide Preschool. Woman of the Year 2008 was awarded to Dr. Karen Parmar.

Karen, along with her husband Gurdev, is a co-founder of the Integrated Health Clinic in Fort Langley. Karen was recognized for her tremendous commitment to her practice as well as her volunteer work in Thailand. Together the Parmars have established a foundation in support of a health clinic in Thailand, where she travels annually to volunteer. But the most important winner is a person who is close to my heart and well regarded throughout Langley.

She is known for her office skills and her sense of humour, her strength of character and her easygoing manner, her ability to speak in public and her unflappable nature in the face of sometimes troubled constituents. [1355] Cathy Gibbs is the Women of Excellence Employee of the Year. The fact that she is also my constituency assistant makes me one of the world's luckiest employers. I'd ask this House to please join me in acknowledging these incredible women of excellence. BURNABY CHILDREN'S CENTRES SOCIETY R.

Chouhan: On Thursday, April 10, I had the pleas- ure of accompanying my colleague the member for North Island on a tour of child care centres in Burnaby as part of her Raising B.C. child care tour. Included in the tour were the two centres run by the Burnaby Children's Centres Society. BCCS was created in 1995 in partnership with the city of Burnaby to provide child care in two facilities. The Hanna Court facility was built by density bonus funds, an initiative that was pioneered by the city of Burnaby, while the Taylor Park centre was built by B.C. Hydro, which gave it to the city of Burnaby in 2003.

For the past 13 years, the BCCS has maintained a high level of child care services, having serviced up- wards of 800 families. Currently, the BCCS services 94 infants, toddlers and three-to-five-year-olds. However, despite maximum capacity at the two current facilities, the ongoing wait-list between the two facilities is over 400 children. Another issue facing the BCCS is a space issue in regards to transitioning ch ildren. Currently, children turning three and moving from the toddler room to the three-to-five rooms are unable to be accommodated.

This problem may directly affect 25 families and may result in families losing their child care. This situation could become critical as soon as September of this year. The BCCS is looking towards the future and their role in providing child care services to Burnaby fami-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11443 lies. Currently, the board is pursuing the building of the third facility to address the three-to-five space issue while addressing wider child care. This proactive planning will alleviate current wait-list needs as well as expected community needs due to the increased population in the area. The BCCS is excited about this prospect and welcomes any new partnerships. TAI CHI R. Lee: Last Saturday I attended the Festival of Health and Longevity organized by the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada, Pacific region.

In attendance were representatives of other levels of government, including Secretary of State Jason Kenney, Vancouver city councillor Suzanne Anton and Prof. Jean-Paul Collet of the depart- ment of pediatrics at UBC and the director of clinical research at B.C. Children's Hospital. Attendees of the festival were treated to a vegetarian meal, tai chi dem- onstrations and a free lesson in tai chi. Tai chi as a form of soft martial art has a long history in China. The ancient Taoists were renowned for their study of the arts of health and longevity.

The founder of the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada, Master Moy Lin-shin, introduced tai chi to Canadians in 1970. This society has since developed into an international organization with member associations in 25 countries. People of all ages can learn and benefit from the gentle turning and stretching moveme nts of this art, and the form can be adapted to match any level of ability. It's a self-regulated form of exercise that lends itself to the needs of all participants.

Tai chi is becoming recog- nized in the medical community as an important com- plementary therapy for people with multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, head injuries, strokes as well as other chronic illnesses. Events like the Festival of Health and Longevity pro- vide valuable outreach to the community to make tai chi available to all and to spread the knowledge of the many associated health benefits.

Would the House please join me in acknowledging the efforts of the Taoist Tai Chi So- ciety in promoting health and well-being through tai chi. [1400] Oral Questions FUNDING FOR CHILD PROTECTION SERVICES C. James: Today B.C.'s Representative for Children and Youth released a devastating report into the gov- ernment's progress to protec t vulnerable children. The report comes after the representative reviewed the tragic deaths of four very young children in northern British Columbia.

This report is about seven years lost — seven years of lessons lost, seven years of children at risk being put more at risk, seven years of front-line workers having to face constant reorganization while dealing with cuts to services, seven years where ser- vices could have been improved and weren't because this government failed. My question is to the Premier. Will he commit after seven years of neglect to actually provide the re- sources, the supports and the leadership to help front- line workers do their job that they want to do? Hon. T. Christensen: I appreciate the Leader of the Opposition's question.

Government welcomes this re- port from the child and yo uth representative. I think it's important that we have critical analysis of the child welfare system in the provin ce and that we learn from reports such as this. This report did review four historical deaths in June of 2005, August of 2002, January of 2001 and November of 1999. I think we need to remember that in each of those cases, a family lost a very young child, and that this report will bring back a good deal of the emotion and, hopefully, will help to answer some questions for those families.

Our thoughts and prayers need to be with those families today. As I said, government looks at this as a learning opportunity. We welcome the report, and I would re- mind members that in the province we have thousands of employees in the Ministry of Children and Family Development. They have committed their professional lives to helping children and families, and they, too, very much look forward to how this report will help us to improve the system. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: The minister talked about learning lessons.

Sadly, this government ha s had many opportunities to learn lessons. They've had many opportunities to improve services for children and youth in this prov- ince. The Hughes report was the most recent report, and this report today says that the government has made very little progress in supporting child protection workers who work on the front line. It was the Premier who called for transformational change. That was his big idea, and it's very clear from this report that it has failed. The result is a troubled disconnect between the ministry and front-line workers.

The system is plagued by high levels of secrecy, a lack of training and a lack of support for front-line workers. Those very workers who are doing an extraordinary job aren't getting the leadership that they need. My question, again, is to the Premier. When is he going to get the social workers the real resources and the real supports they need to do this very difficult job? Hon. T. Christensen: I think it is important that we learn from history.

I think if we look at what has changed in the north, in particular, over the course of the last number of years since 1999, we see significant additional resources and significant improvements. In 1999 only 59 percent of the ministry employee positions in the north were full; 40 percent were vacant. Today we're at a 98 percent complement. We have in- creased from 187 social workers in 1999 to 243 today. We have increased from 43 supervisors in 1999 to 53

11444 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 today. We have three newly developed clinical super- vision positions to provide additional support to team leaders across the region. Those are all steps forward. That is not to say there is not more that can be done. We look at the representative's report as a basis for additional learning. We welcome the recommenda- tions, and we look forward to working with the repre- sentative and the select standing committee on how it is that we can continue to improve child protection practice in the province. [1405] Mr.

Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C. James: The minister said we need to look at his- tory. This report is a very important piece of history — history around how child protection has been dealt with. We mu st remem ber that this is the first report on child deaths since the Liberals shut down the Children's Commission in 2001. It's the first comprehensive child death report that we've had in this province since 2002 — seven years lost of lessons we could have learned, of history that we should have learned from to protect children at risk. The government threw all of that away.

They had to be dragged back to this po int to actually put back an independent voice for children once again in this prov- ince — all those years wasted. Again to the Premier: will he admit that his cuts, his decision to shut down the Children's Commission and to shut down the child death reviews, are a wasted opportunity to improve lives for children at risk? Hon. T. Christensen: I know that the opposition leader wants to characterize everything as cuts. The budget for the Ministry of Children and Family Develop- ment today is 30 percent higher than it was in 2000-2001.

The number of staff in the north is dramatically higher. We know that you actually have to have staff on the ground in communities if you're going to make a differ- ence for children and families. We have focused our efforts on ensuring that we get a full staff complement. We have heard, through a series of reports, that information-sharing is a critic al issue.

We are investing $107 million over the next number of years in a fully integrated case management system so that information- sharing is as active and robust as possible, so that our front-line social workers have the tools they require — information being the first one — to do the best possi- ble job. We have appointed a new assistant deputy minister for quality assurance, in March, to focus on the types of issues that are raised by th e representative in this re- port, so that we can all be confident that we have the most robust and rigorous child protection system available. L.

Krog: I want to remind the minister that he can brag about an increase, but this government started its term with a 23 percent cu t to the ministry. They introduced significant polic ies and shut down the Children's Commission. The report points out what the Liberals were told for years. You cannot cut services to children and ex- pect improvements. Government cannot bring forward massive change without providing new resources, but that's exactly what this government did. My question to the Minist er of Children and Family Development is simply this. What did this government think would happen?

Did they think they could actu- ally slash programs and maintain adequate service levels for children? Hon. T. Christensen: Actually, the member should read the report, because it makes no mention of re- sources. The report is focused on the events in terms of these four deaths and what we can learn from those. What the ministry has focused on, I would say to the member, is actually fillin g the staff positions in the north so that we have people on the ground that can do the work.

We have focused on a very significant dis- cussion with staff within the ministry about how we can improve practice and how the ministry can better support them. There's more to be done there. I will be the first to admit that, but we see this report as a tool that will assist us in that work. We welcome the recommendations. We look forward to working with the select standing committee so that we see these recommendations actually make a difference in improving services to children and families across our province. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. L.

Krog: Changes this government, this Premier, brought forward drained resources from the front line, from the social workers and communities who were try- ing to protect children. The Premier pushed massive change. He called it transformative change, but he didn't provide the resources to get the job done. It was another failed attempt at sloganeering and no resources — in fact, and indeed the minister knows this, fewer resources. [1410] Will the Premier admit that it 's time to put the slogans away, get the front-line workers the resources they need to do their important work, and protect children? Hon. T.

Christensen: I would remind the member that he was a member of a government that thought that a 59 percent staffing level seemed to be appropri- ate. We have addressed that most fundamental of needs. The most fundamental thing that any vulnerable child or struggling family needs is the ability to have a social worker available to meet with them. You do that by ensuring that you have full staffing. That doesn't mean there won't be recurring challenges in the north. I think all members of this House, particu- larly those from the north, are aware of the challenge of recruiting and retaining staff.

I believe that the representative has made some helpful recommendations about how we can focus

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11445 some of our human resources planning on ensuring that we are retaining the people we have and recruiting more, particularly more aboriginal social workers, to be working in the north. We're committed to following that path. I would hope that the members opposite would join us in that commitment. N.

Simons: There are social workers across this province today that are hoping — they are hoping against hope — to finally hear a commitment from this government that they will resource the ministry prop- erly so that children across this province get the ser- vices they need when they ar e in vulnerable situations. All we hear are numbers that are picked out of thin air. Talking about positions in the ministry is not talking about child protection social workers in the ministry, and this minister needs to make that distinction.

There are social workers in this province right now who are concerned because they are not even getting to the in- vestigations within two weeks. They're being referred to a caseload called triple-zero — no social worker available. What's the minister going to do today to put exactly the right number of social workers in every office so that children and families are properly served? Hon. T. Christensen: I don't doubt the member's passion about these issues, but passion alone doesn't get the job done. We have added 315 FTEs over the last two years to child and family services.

Those are posi- tions that are being filled ar ound the province so that we are increasing the human resources available to children and families. We've seen a 30 percent increase in the ministry's budget since the year 2000-2001 so that resources have increased and are available to serve children and families around the province. We're going to work hard to keep children with their families and to address those vulnerabilities early. We're going to provide the resources necessary. We're going to ensure that we're improvin g in sharing information.

We're going to ensure that we are adding staff, as we have over the course of the last two years in particular. We're going to support children and families to build on their strengths and e n s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t h e most robust and effective system possible. Is it going to be there next week? No. It's going to be a continuous process of improvement that engages communities and that engages our service providers. We have set forth a framework to do exactly that. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. N.

Simons: The reason that it's not going to be there next week is because the ministry has wasted seven years. Seven years — and this minister knows very well that the needs in that ministry have been outstanding for those seven ye ars. It's about time they quit blaming situations beyond their control. This is about social work ers, and it's about children they serve. Their social workers go home late at night; they get to work early. Many of them can't sleep be- cause of the workload that this government is impos- ing on them.

On behalf of those families, of those children — on behalf of all the childre n who've suffered in this province because of this government's irresponsible and ill-conceived cuts — will the minister commit to the social workers in this province today that he will fund and adequately resource their offices? [1415] Hon. T. Christensen: I do wish that the members opposite would actually listen to the answer. We have, in a very concerted way, been adding FTEs to the over- all numbers that the ministry employs.

We have been working hard to fill vacancies to ensure that there are people on the front lines to do that work. That will be a continuing effort. We have hired more, and we have added resources. A s I s a i d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h i s l i n e o f q u e s t i o n - ing, we welcome the representative's report and look forward to working with her and with the select stand- ing committee to ensure that the recommendations she has made assist the ministry in improving services to children and families across our province. VICTIM SERVICES IN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CASES C.

Trevena: Another report was issued today. The critical components projec t advised by Judge Josiah Wood issued a report on the toll of domestic violence. It's sadly timely, after the killings in Oak Bay and Merritt. The report has more than 60 recommendations but one simple message. The cuts and attacks on women's services and the community-based victim assistance by this government are hurting women and are dangerous for families. I'd like to quote from the report. It says: "Closely related to lack of coordination is a lack of government leadership.

There is no lead ministry at the provincial level and no government coor dinating body to ensure provincial leadership." This is dangerous. I would like to ask the Solicitor General when he will reverse his government's decisions to cut back on community-based victim services to ensure there is protection for women and all victims of domestic violence. Hon. J. van Dongen: I thank the member for the question. I confirm that we did receive the report to- day. In fact, my ministry funded — substantially — the report, and we welcome the recommendations. The recommendations are detailed and comprehensive.

We will be reviewing the report, working with all of the stakeholders in the justice system — the police, Crown counsel, judges and community organizations. I confirm to the member that we will take all of this un- der advisement and work together to build a better system to protect victims of domestic violence. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

11446 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 C. Trevena: There was a system in place that tried to protect women from domestic violence and tried to protect families in situations of domestic violence. Sadly, that system was cut to the bone in 2002 by this government — as it cut victim services, as it cut women's centres, as it cut all the aspects that women could go to. There are just 62 community-based victim assis- tance programs for the whole of the province. These are the programs that have a special mandate to deal with violence and sexual ab use.

There are only 62 of them, but the victims of crime surcharge fund has approximately $35 million in it. I will ask the Solicitor General: why will he not prevent more abuse now, prevent the dangers now, and put some of that $35 million into the system that so sorely needs it? Hon. J. van Dongen: I confirm that this issue is a serious issue for our government. I don't accept the characterization by the member opposite of the changes that were made in 2002.

There were a number of changes made that integrated the work of the various victim services organizations, and we continue to put more money into supporting victims of domestic violence. Just recently we announced and confirmed $17 mil- lion in additional dollars over the next three years, and the Attorney General and I announced $1½ million targeted specifically to the victims of domestic violence. [1420] D. Thorne: My question is for the Attorney General.

Today's report from the critical components project team on domestic violence has reported that incidents of spousal assault have risen 9 percent between 2004 and '05. Spousal assault has accounted for more requests for victim services than any other offence in British Co- lumbia, and domestic violence accounted for one in eight prosecutions in B.C. This government has dealt with this growing prob- lem by cutting services and programs that deal with domestic violence. Most dangerously, the government has abandoned the previous mandatory zero-tolerance approach to domestic violence.

I ask the Attorney General today: when will he take this problem seriously and provide the proper funding and top priority for domestic violence, as called for in today's report? Hon. W. Oppal: I thank the member for raising that question. I don't think th ere's any more compelling issue in the criminal justice system than the issue con- cerning violence against women. I know that because I've been there. I was on the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal for 23 years. I dealt with these cases. I dealt with the cases as a Crown prosecutor. I witnessed evidence concerning acts of violence against women.

I know how serious this issue is. This is not a new issue. It 's been with us, regrettably and tragically, for many, many generations. It's a socie- tal issue that we all have to deal with. Regrettably, there are no easy answers, bu t I think that we as a soci- ety have to take these issues seriously. I can tell you that one reason I came here is to work on these issues, and I can tell you that we as a govern- ment are committed to working on these issues, because they mean a lot to us. Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. D.

Thorne: I thank the Attorney General for the work he has done in the past around domestic violence as a Crown prosecutor, and I take very seriously his promise to do the same kind of good work in his current job as Attorney General of the province of British Colum- bia. But I would just like to read a couple of the serious omissions in the Attorney General and the justice depart- ment that were mentioned in the report today.

The report is recommending that the government must enhance their efforts to address systemic factors that affect victim safety, and these kinds of factors in- clude the lack of timely justice system responses, the lack of interpreters and services in immigrant women's own language — and this includes police services — the lack of resources and training that we have for people who are dealing with victims and offenders with mental health issues, and the total lack of enforcement of pro- tection order breaches. The Attorney General obviously knows what I'm talk- ing about. We definitely need a whole new approach.

We need a major change in policy. Little one-time grants and funding $1.5 million into Lower Mainland services… Mr. Speaker: Can the member pose the question, please. D. Thorne: …will not help British Columbia. When will the Attorney General take a major move to help the victims of domestic violence? Hon. W. Oppal: Well, we commissioned this report. We commissioned this repo rt because we care about what's happening to victims.

I can tell you that the crimi- nal justice branch is now involved in a creative, innovative approach wherein Crown prosecutors are working with the police, with social workers, with community outreach workers, with corrections officers and with judges so that we can have a coordinated approach. [1425] You see, historically, the criminal justice system has worked in silos. That's regrettable. But I can tell you that we as a government are taking this issue very, very seriously.

The criminal justice branch, with its coordinated approach of sharing information so that victims can be assisted, is a route that we're taking now. HANDLING OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CASES IN JUSTICE SYSTEM M. Farnworth: The Attorney General says that he attaches great importance to this issue and that every-

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11447 one must do their part. Well, government must do their part. My question to the Attorney General is this. Does he not now recognize that there is an opportunity here, t o d a y , f o r h i m t o r e c o m m e n d t h a t i t ' s t i m e w e h a v e a full review of how the justice system deals with issues of domestic violence in the province of British Columbia? Hon. W. Oppal: Well, I appreciate the interest of the Opposition House Leader on this issue. It's an im- portant issue, but it's somewhat regrettable that he's politicizing this.

It doesn't need to be politicized. I think we need to deal with this matter on a particularly higher level than he suggests. I can assure the member that we are reviewing these matters. We're reviewing them on an ongoing basis. We continue to do that. This issue is important to us. You know, it might interest the member to know that spousal violence was with us in the '90s as well. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: I didn't realize that asking a ques- tion around a serious generational problem was politi- cizing an issue. I'll ask again to the Attorney General….

He said that he believes very strongly in this issue. One of the things we need to recognize is that there are times to look at an issue on a broad basis, in depth, and that now is one of those times. So will he commit to this House that now is the time to undertake a broad review of the justice system and how it deals with issues of do- mestic violence in the province of British Columbia? Hon. W. Oppal: Well, I think that's what this report does. We commissioned the report; we wanted the report. The report does deal with these issues on a systemwide basis. That's the advice that the report gives to us.

We'll seriously consider those recommendations and all the advice that the authors of the report have given to us. BOUNTIFUL AND POLYGAMY ISSUE C. Evans: My question is also for the Attorney General. This theme today of accusation and blame and going back to history seems to be endemic here. I've been reviewing the qu estions last week about Bountiful, and it seems that the opposition says: "Can we now do something about Bountiful?" The Attorney General has a report asking for a referral.

The Attor- ney General says: "Well, th ese problems were made worse in the '90s." I understand the principle of political accountabil- ity that works here. I was the MLA in Creston in the 1990s — and in 1993 when the RCMP asked for a refer- ral, and the government's lawyers said that was the wrong thing to do. Let me say here that I accept responsibility for everything that's gone wrong in the past. It's a brand-new slate. There is now someone who is responsible. Could we start from today and actually ask for the referral of the legality of polygamy in Bountiful?

I've read the Attorney General saying: "I would rather do something tougher and have a criminal charge." That's fine, but in the absence of a complainant willing to testify, a criminal charge has been unable to go forward for 20 years. We now have a report asking for a referral to a court to find out if what's going on in my constituency is legal. I beg the Attorney General: start from today and ask for the referral. [1430] Hon. W. Oppal: Well, I think we've made it clear that this matter is of considerable importance to us.

The issue regarding the abuses that are alleged to be taking place in Bountiful is something that should concern all British Columbians. That's why we sought the advice of two dif- ferent lawyers, Mr. Peck and Mr. Doust. I have a meeting scheduled with Mr. Doust at the end of next week. I want to assure the member that we will do something, but I need to talk to Mr. Doust one more time. [End of question period.] Hon. J. van Dongen: I seek leave to table a docu- ment. Leave granted. Tabling Documents Hon.

J. van Dongen: I rise to table a letter from the chair of the board of directors of ICBC, which I received earlier today. This letter is in response to a request that I made to the board for a

summary of the investigation into the operations of ICBC's research and training facil- ity. The letter reaffirms my belief that the board and the executive of ICBC take this matter seriously and acted expeditiously to deal with the unacceptable situation at the facility. I know that the public continues to have questions, as do members of this House, on this matter. Accordingly, I am tabling this letter so that this information is available to the public and all members of this Legislature. R. Chouhan: Mr. Speaker, seeking leave to table a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions R.

Chouhan: Nine hundred seniors in Burnaby have signed this petition to restore the funding for Burnaby Partners in Seniors Wellness now. N. Simons: I'd like to present a petition on behalf of residents of the Gibsons area who are concerned about the misguided policies with respect to B.C. Ferries.

11448 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate in this chamber on Bill 17, Public Safety and Solicitor General (Gift Card Certainty) Statutes Amendment Act. In

Section A, Committee of Supply, for the infor- mation of members, we will be continuing with the debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Education. Committee of the Whole House PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOLICITOR GENERAL (GIFT CARD CERTAINTY) STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 17; K. Whittred in the chair. The committee met at 2:35 p.m. On

section 1. G. Gentner: Just very quickly, under

section 1, rela- tive to "prepaid purchase card" and its meaning, defini- tions, etc. To the minister: can he explain to the House the consultative process to arrive at this? Was it through the B.C. retail association? Or was it through the B.C. Business Practices and Consumer Protection Authority? Hon. J. van Dongen: In response to the member's question, the consultation was done by the ministry. There were responses from approximately 30 consumers, and consumer organizations included the Consumers Council of Canada.

Business organizations that responded included the Retail Counci l of Canada, the Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors, British Columbia and Yukon Hotels Association, Re tail B.C., Better Business Bureau of Mainland B.C., Telus and the Multi-store Gift Card Coalition. G. Gentner: I understand that there was a survey conducted up until the early part of last summer and that that survey was on line. How many actual con- sumers were consulted — not just retailers, etc., but the public? And did the public engage in this process? Hon.

J. van Dongen: The 30 consumers that I men- tioned have responded to the on-line survey. Then there were approximately ten further consumers that con- tacted the ministry to make their views known about the issue of gift cards.

Section 1 approved. On

section 2. M. Farnworth: I wonder if the minister could comment as to why funera l contracts and interment right contracts or preneed cemetery or funeral ser- vices contracts were not included in the changes there. [1440] Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm advised, in response to the member's question, that funeral contracts, interment right contracts or preneed cemetery funeral services contracts are dealt with in another part of the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Act. They're dealt with specifically in another section. So it was felt that to avoid confusion, it not be included in these amend- ments.

Section 2 approved. On

section 3. G. Gentner: O n s u b s e c t i o n 3 , s u b s e c t i o n 5 6 . 1 , j u s t on the definition "prepaid purchase card." This is all- encompassing, I'm assuming ? This includes phone cards and gas cards? Hon. J. van Dongen: I'm advised that the telephone cards are under fede ral jurisdiction — telecommunica- tions is federal jurisdiction — and that these amendments do include gas cards that are being given as gifts. G. Gentner: What other cards are under federal jurisdiction that will be exempted from the ministry's definition of prepaid purchase cards? [1445] Hon.

J. van Dongen: The main other area that is not within the jurisdiction of this legislation…. They are things like preloaded credit cards issued by the financial services sector, most of which are under federal legisla- tion as well. G. Gentner: So all telephone cards are exempt, and of course, what the credit card companies do…. I'm assuming we'll maybe reach that in a subsection rela- tive to the user fees, etc. — service fees. What about gift cards that have been purchased out of province? There are expiry dates there, but someone wants to redeem. This could be a franchise in the prov- ince.

How will that system work? Will the retailer of that chain have to honour the fact that, even though there is an expiry date on the card, that gift or that pur- chase will be honoured? Hon. J. van Dongen: The law in the province where a gift card is issued would apply to that par- ticular card because the jurisdiction would be the province of issue. I can say to the member that there are a number of provinces that have already implemented gift card legislation and made expiry dates illegal, Ontario and Manitoba in particular. Also, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are working on legis- lation.

The Retail Council of Canada has worked ac- tively with its members to seek a harmonized approach across Canada on this. So I think that the prospects are good, through the consultations that have taken place between provinces and through organizations like the Retail Council, that

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11449 we will be moving towards a harmonized system across Canada on this legislation. G. Gentner: I t b r i n g s t o m i n d … . W e ' r e n o w w e l l into the Internet on-line purchasing, and a consumer may believe that he or she is buying a prepaid pur- chase card with no expiry date, but of course, the head office at the other end could be somewhere else. I was just curious as to what the answer would be here.

In particular, I am somewhat buoyed by the fact that the minister is looking at encouraging a harmonized ap- proach throughout the country on this issue. Under the provision 56.2, "issued or sold with an expiry date in contravention of subsection (1) is re- deemable as if it had no expiry date." I just don't know when or how to introduce this. I know that the minister has made mention through the press that this would come into effect probably at the end of this year. Could he explain when that is and why that is? [1450] Hon.

J. van Dongen: The answer to the member's question is that, subject to passage of this legislation through this House, the mi nistry would embark on further consultation with all interested parties and draft the regulations that are enabled by these proposed amendments. As a ministry, we're targeting the fall of 2008 as a target implementation time. G. Gentner: I'm a little confused by that. Last year at this time we — this side — proposed a private member's bill. We're happy that the side opposite picked up our good intentions and came forward with a bill similar to ours.

However, a year has transpired since then. I believe that probably the fourth-busiest retailing season is Father's Day, believe it or not. I hate to tell you that it takes precedence over Mother's Day, but flowers don't seem to be as expensive as drills and tools and everything else that dad needs. It would have been a wonderful opportunity to have had this ready at least by Father's Day — all due respect to moms. I just don't understand how it is that there has to be further consultation. The bill is coming forward here today.

It should be ready and up and running very shortly, yet we're going to wait until before Christmas. There will be some hope for consumers then, but some people do their Christmas shopping well into fall. I don't understand it. This is free money. Gift cards with expiry dates were really gift cards for re- tailers. It's now part of their bottom line. There are accounts set aside, either in reserves for that retailer to come forward and spend it…. That money is al- ready sitting aside. I don't know why the ministry….

Could the minister adjust his time line, streamline it somewhat, so that this legislation could be effective immediately — if not, let's say, with a time frame of this summer? Hon. J. van Dongen: I appreciate the member's enthusiasm and share his en thusiasm for getting this legislation implemented as soon as possible in the interests of consumers. A couple of comments. It is important that regula- tions be drafted appropriately and correctly and in consultation with stakeholders. I think that's an impor- tant principle.

I can confirm that a number of retailers have started to move forward and are going through the necessary changes to remove expiry dates. At the same time, there is a need for government, in a timely way, to provide appropriate notice to all of the retail sector as to the implementation date for this legislation and to allow sufficient time for conversion of, possibly, programming and cards, equipment, etc.

My commitment to the member in this House is to implement expeditiously but in a way that gives ap- propriate consideration to the matters of consultation and notice to the sector and those sorts of things. [1455] G. Gentner: Well, I appreciate the minister's re- sponse. I suppose that at this time half a loaf is better than no loaf, so to speak. I'm also interested to know what notice to consumers there will be. Many consumers have heard this infor- mation.

They're quite exci ted about it, and maybe they're not able to read the fine line or understand that full implementation of this won't happen until maybe Christmas. What is the ministry doing to let consumers know that there's still an expiry date in effect until maybe Christmas? Hon. J. van Dongen: The Business Practices and Consumer Protection Authority will be administering this act. This is an indepe ndent authority charged with responsibility for these types of consumer protection initiatives, and they will be providing information and notice on their website for both consumers and the business sector.

They will also have additional infor- mation explaining example questions and answers and explaining some of the details of these changes. G. Gentner: I'm wondering exactly how the retro- activeness, if you will, of this card is going to work. For example, let's suppose that a person bought a card on January 1, 2008, and doesn't want to redeem it until January 1, 2009. The bill is totally in effect as of December '08, yet there's still an expiry date. Will the merchant or retailer have to honour that card? [1500] Hon.

J. van Dongen: In response to the member's question, the critical date will be the day that this legis- lation is enacted. Again, su bject to approval by this House, it would be enacted once the regulations are drafted and enacted by order-in-council. Further, any cards issued after that effective date will have to be in compliance with the new law. Any cards issued prior to that, as part of the transition pro- visions of these amen dments to the act, will be subject

11450 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 to the requirement, the law, that the issuers of those cards cannot change the provisions of those cards. So in other words, if a retailer issued a card before the effective date of this legislation, once this legislation is enacted, the retailer could not change the provisions of that card. That would be part of the transition provi- sions. M. Farnworth: I j u s t w a n t t o f o l l o w u p o n t h i s . I just want to make sure we're clear.

So what I heard the minister say was that once this act and the regulations are enacted by order-in-council, it then comes into full force. So any gift card afte r that date is governed by this act, and there's no expiry date on it. But prior to that, like today, what I hear the minis- ter saying is that if a gift card does not have an expiry date on it, you could not put one on. You could not change those conditions of it not having the expiry date. You couldn't put one on .

If that's correct, then, what I'm hearing is that the converse of that is true — that is, if there is an expiry date on today, then that expiry date continues to stay in place. Is that what I'm hearing? Hon. J. van Dongen: I just want to quote from

section 4 in response to the member's question, which is a g o o d q u e s t i o n . I f a c a r d h a s n o e x p i r y d a t e , i t m u s t remain valid until it is "…fully redeemed or replaced." So if it has no expiry date, it can't be changed. After the effective date of this legislation, a retailer, an issuer, can't change the provisions. The question he asked is: if a card issued prior to the effective date of this legislation has an expiry date, can the retailer remove the expiry date? The answer is yes, they can. So they can voluntarily choose to remove the expiry date.

They can ch ange that condition, but they can't do it the reverse way. M. Farnworth: But the other question, then, that comes in is that again…. Af ter the regulations and the order-in-council are passed is one thing. But prior to that, then, if a gift card has an expiry date on it today, that expiry date remains in force even after the new regulations are brought into effect by the order-in- council. Is that correct? Hon. J. van Dongen: I can confirm that the member is correct in that scenario. G. Gentner: Regarding 56.4, what must be on the card itself.

"All restrictions, limitations, terms and conditions imposed in respect of use, redemption or replacement of the prepaid purchase card, including, without limi- tation, any permitted fee or expiry date." I'm wondering at this time: what has to be on the card that you purchase? What are its limitations? What is the retailers' responsibility here? [1505] Hon.

J. van Dongen: In response to the member's question, I want to confirm th at everything is set out in 56.4(1)(a) — that the terms and conditions, any restric- tions or limitations have to be shown either on the card or the packaging material that the card is attached to at the point of sale. So any conditions, any fees as set out in the

section have to be di sclosed there, and they can be on either the card or the packaging material. G. Gentner: Well, I asked the question because there's a standard practice now in British Columbia where the restrictions and limitations of a card are provided on the website of the retailer. So the minister is assuring us that the details of the card you're purchasing will, hopefully, be just strictly on the card itself and/or the packaging, and that does not include the website. I see a yes-and-no head nod that that's correct. Okay.

What also concerns me is that we're providing this provision here, which is a good thing, but it also again mentions any permitted fee or expiry dates. Well, we're getting rid of expiry dates, so why are we suggesting we're going to put that on the card? [1510] Hon. J. van Dongen: The issue of a possible permit- ted fee or expiry date…. I'll deal with the issue of expiry date first. The regulations may allow the expiry dates on promotional cards. For example, cards that are issued a s par t of a pro m o t io n wo u l d b e i s su e d fr ee t o th e c on - sumer.

So the legislation contemplates the possibility of allowing cards issued in that way or for charitable pur- poses to have an expiry da te, the principle being that the consumer did not lay out any dollars of any kind for that card. Similarly, the legislation enables the possibility of consideration under the regulations for a small fee for something like providing a customized card that may have the picture of the holder of the card on it — that would be one example that is being contemplated — or the possibility of a small fee to replace a card, for example, that has been lost by the co nsumer.

So if the consumer has a gift card and they've lo st it and they're seeking a replacement from the retaile r, the legislation would allow us, in designing the regulations, to contemplate the possibility of a small fee in a situation like that. G. Gentner: I ask the question again, because under the

definitions…. Maybe the minister could shepherd me along here.

Section 56.4 specifically talks about prepaid purchase cards, and sub-subsection (

a) refers to prepaid purchase cards. Does that also mean a pro- motional card that isn't paid? Hon. J. van Dongen: I would refer the member to the definition under

section 56.1, where it gives a spe- cific definition of a prepaid purchase card. I think the operative word there, which is also repeated in

section 56.4, is the word "issued" followed by "or sold." I can appreciate the member's question because of the use of the word "prepaid," but that is intended to denote the fact that a card is being issued in a promo- tional situation to a consum er with a prepaid value of, let's say, $10. That card will have been issued at no cost

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11451 to the consumer. So the definition here does include both cards — promotional ones and ones that the con- sumer actually laid out their own money for. M. Farnworth: Can the minister tell me how the legislation deals with the issue of fees and fees being charged on gift cards? Hon. J. van Dongen: I would refer the member asking the question to subsec tion 56.3(1), which is enti- tled "Fees prohibited except as permitted by regula- tion." This

section sets ou t that: "A supplier must not charge a fee to a consumer for anything in relation to a prepaid purchase card, except as may be permitted by the regulations under

section 56.5…."

Section 56.5 is the one that sets up the authority to provide the exemption for a fee. [1515] M. Farnworth: I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e i t c l e a r . T h a t ' s important, because one of the things that can happen is that you could do away with an expiry date. Let's say you bought a $100 gift card at, I don't know, one of my favourite stores, Holt Renfrew — not that I get to go there that often. A hundred bucks probably wouldn't get me that much, in fact. Okay, let's make it $500, be- cause we're talking about Holt Renfrew. You could have a series of fees that would come in.

Let's say that after a year it might lose half its value. In a subsequent year it loses half its value. I want to make sure that what we're not going to allow is a sort of backdoor expiry date by a sliding scale of fees coming in that would render a gift card useless. Hon. J. van Dongen: I can assure the member that if he wants to offer me a $500 gift card to Holt Renfrew, I would be happy about that.

The issue that he raises is one that is being directly addressed in this legislation, and the technical term for it is "dormancy fees." It is certainly our full intent through this legislation to ensure that those cannot be applied. I think his question strikes at the heart of the intent of this legislation — that that kind of backdoor erosion of the value that the consum er put up in terms of buy- ing the card will not be able to happen. That will be illegal under this legislation. G. Gentner: In the same vein, where does that put us with credit cards like Visa, which are regulated fed- erally?

They tack service charges on buying purchase cards. Or it could be TicketMaster. What happens then? Hon. J. van Dongen: If I understand the member's question correctly, I think we have dealt with that in the answer that I gave — that Visa cards and bank cards are generally all federally regulated, and they would not be captured by this legislation. G. Gentner: Well, I raise it because I think we have this sort of counterculture when every time we go to an ATM machine, we pay $1.50. You're going to buy a purchase card, a gift card, which is for a friend, and here we're going to go again.

I had to raise it for the record. The minister mentioned earlier about how we're going to regulate this. We're going to regulate it through the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Authority, which I think now is a little more arm's-length than it used to be, when it used to be called…. It was changed under this government. Can the minister explain to me how this will be enforced? [1520] Hon. J. van Dongen: In response to the member's question, the compliance an d enforcement provisions are already built into the exis ting act.

It does involve a progressive approach to ac hieving the proper outcome for consumers under the act. If consumers can't resolve complaints directly with the businesses themselves, they can contact the Business Practices and Consumer Prot ection Authority. The au- thority will, in the first instance, assist them with media- tion and referrals. They will investigate the consumers' complaints. They will seek redress for consumers who have been treated improperly by a business, and they will work to ensure that bu sinesses are complying with the consumer protection legislation.

The act then further establishes a number of en- forcement mechanisms available to the authority, in- cluding some of the following. They may investigate complaints about violations, including enter a busi- ness, take copies of documents and hear witnesses. They may, under the act, request written undertakings to comply, to make compliance orders, leading in some cases to freezing property or injunctions. They may impose progressive administrative penalties up to $10,000 for an individual and larger penalties for business, and they may recommend charges in crimi- nal courts.

So there's a whole progre ssion of services and en- forcement that is available to consumers in the event that they feel there's non- compliance by an issuer of these gift cards. G. Gentner: So the short of it is that compliance is dealt with sort of on a complaint basis, I guess. My next question there is: who can issue a card? Do you need a business license? Are there going to be permits issued by the province? Is there going to be some type of inventory? How is this going to be regulated? Can I, tomorrow — I have a fruit stand — issue out certifi- cates and say there's no expiry date?

Can the minister explain how this is going to occur? Hon. J. van Dongen: I thank the member for his question. This is consumer protection legislation, so it is by nature consumer-driven. If consumers feel that they've been inappropriatel y treated under the law, then this provides the redress mechanism for them. [1525]

11452 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 These amendments do ca pture not only cards but also other documents. Whether it's a certificate or a letter — the common element being any document that promises a future good or a service to a consumer for dollars laid out by the consumer today — that would be captured by this legislation. If it's a paper certificate issued that promises some- thing in the future, a good to b e a v a i l a b l e , t h e n i t i s included in the legal scope of this legislation. G. Gentner: Well, it's a recent phenomenon in many ways.

I understand that the way to find your patronage and get people into your business was the reason why we had gift cards. But here we are today. These intricacies are certainly technical in nature, but they do have vast impli- cations, because again we're talking about a multitude of millions of dollars in unredeemed cards per annum. I just need a little furthe r explanation on renewal fees. You can join a membership for, say, Costco, and there could be a gift card attached. It's not promotional, but you can belong to clubs, etc.

Will this legislation deal with any type of renewal fee necessary to update your gift card? Hon. J. van Dongen: The legislation is enabling and will provide the authority to consider the kind of cir- cumstances that the member raises, where a consumer buys a membership in a buying organization such as Costco, for an example, where it may be time-limited. There may be a gift card issued with that membership, which may or may not be part of the fee. The legislation may be used — and I stress "could be used" — to allow a card that is deemed to have been issued free for promotional purposes….

It may allow a small fee. On the other hand, it allows government in drafting regulations to not allow a fee on that card. So there may be a range of circumstances that the regula- tions will attempt to deal with and ensure that the con- sumer gets a fair treatment from the issuing retailer. M. Farnworth: We're just about finished, I think, on the issue of gift cards. But I do have a question, and that is around certificates. If one were to attend, for example, a charity auction or a benefit auction…. Quite often in silent auctions you bid on an item. For example, it may be dinner at a restaurant.

It could be Ducks Unlimited. It could be any number of great events — right? I do it on a regular basis, and sometimes I take them home and I say: "Hey, why don't we go for dinner here?" And it's: "Nah, not tonight." Then it gets stuck in a drawer, and you forget about it. Then later on, you're going: "You know what? I'm going into Vancouver- Kingsway, and I should take my colleague the member for Vancouver-Kingsway out for lunch. This restaurant is near there." I go, and I find the…. A. Dix: I always pay. M. Farnworth: Okay, maybe that's the wrong member to use. That's right.

He always pays. [1530] You get the gift certificates . In the case of charitable, will it allow expiry dates, or does the legislation cover that? When you get something at a charity auction, and let's say it's a gift certificate at a restaurant, will it not have an expiry date into the future? Hon. J. van Dongen: The regulation-making au- thority, under the amendments being proposed, will allow consideration of a possible expiry date where something is issued by a charitable organization. So the scenario that the member me ntions can be dealt with under the authority of this act.

Again, he raises a good example of where due consid- e r a t i o n n e e d s t o b e m a d e a s t o w h a t i s t h e a p p r o p r i a t e action in the kind of scenario he mentions. We're certainly open to advice from the member on those types of situa- tions. I've had the same experience at fundraisers for charitable organizations. Whether or not it's appropriate to require them to not have an expiry date is a valid consideration to be made under the legislation. Sections 3 and 4 approved. On

section 5. [S. Hammell in the chair.] M. Farnworth: I had to ask that question. It is a reality of our occupation and many others. Interjection. M. Farnworth: There are days, hon. Member, where you may well think that. I wonder if the minister can outline exactly, in terms of

section 5, how that changes from the current d e f i n i t i o n a n d , i n p a r t i c u l a r , d e a l w i t h t h e i s s u e o f including property that is likely to cause serious bodily harm — how that has changed — and the issue of removing the element of intention. [1535] Hon. J. van Dongen: I f w e s t a r t i n r e s p o n d i n g t o the member's question with

section 5(a), the change is the addition of the words "or was likely to result in." This is really dealing with past behaviour that's already proven, but the intent of this amendment is to ensure that the act will apply to actions that have oc- curred — crimes that have been committed using these particular assets or property — where not only did it "result in," but it would also widen the scope to include "likely to result in" certain outcomes. Again, under

section 5(a)(ii) the addition was "or was likely to cause" serious bodily harm to a person. What it means is that in the new draft, the actual bodily harm would not have had to happen for the act to apply. It would apply even if it was only likely to apply. That amendment is being made so that — in the example of a street racer — the act would not only ap- ply if someone actually caused bodily harm, injury or death by street racing, but it would apply if the actions

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11453 of that individual in operating that vehicle were likely to cause serious injury or death. It clarifies and widens the legislation a little bit so that it still applies when there's dangerous behaviour that didn't necessarily, at that particular event or par- ticular incident, cause bodily harm. Then, in answering the member's question fully, under

section 1(

b) there's a slight change where we're removing the words "is intended to" and substituting the word "may." [1540] This is simply to ensure that we're not treading on a test that really involves criminal law, that it simply reflects a person's actions without trying to ascertain the intent — which is really one of the key elements of criminal law as opposed to civil law. M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that explana- tion. I would want to look at it from two perspectives, and I think the street-racin g analogy is a very good example of one. Is it the minister's intent that this

section is…? Is it a discretionary

section in the sense that if you are caught street racing and it's your first time, then your car automatically will be seized? Or is it the minister's in- tention that this is an option — to seize a vehicle? Hon. J. van Dongen: I want to respond to the mem- ber, first of all, by explaining the process. Under the act, the director of civil forfeiture, who is an individual with responsibility for this legislation in the ministry….

He or she would make a determination, first of all — under the specifics of the act and what the ministry has learned through previous cases and in consideration of the specific facts of any individual case — whether or not it's appropriate to make application to the court for a decision to seize the vehicl e and have that individual forfeit that vehicle under this legislation. What I want to stress is that in any decision around forfeiture, the actual decision i s t h e d e c i s i o n o f a n i n - dependent judge in our court system.

The decision to move a particular case forward would depend heavily on the facts of the case and on what we've learned through this legislation to date. [1545] It's possible, based on what we've learned, that on a first offence with a certain fact pattern, the director might decide it's inappropriate to forward a request to the court for consideration of forfeiture, simply because the experience has shown that that would be inappro- priate use of public resources.

Or it's possible that the actions of an individual, even in a first offence, are so horrendous and created such a risk for the public that the director may decide to put the case forward to a judge for consideration. It would be up to the director to act in a manner that he or she feels is in the public interest, with due consideration to all the issues that I've mentioned. M. Farnworth: S o w h a t I c a n t a k e f r o m t h e m i n i s - ter's explanation is that yes, that discretion or that ability is there.

Can he also confirm that one of the effects of this particular change — and I'll give you an example — is that if someone was street racing and killed someone, it would be easy under the old act to seize the vehicle — to forfeit the vehicle. If they were repeatedly caught street racing but did not injure anybody, it would be very difficult, or more difficult, to seize a vehicle. I'll let him answer that first. Hon.

J. van Dongen: I think the member raises a relevant question in that un der the old act, if there was no serious injury or death caused by the actions of that individual, then the director would not be able to make an application. But that's the heart of the amendment — if it's likely to cause. If in the director's judgment — based on the reports from the police and all the infor- mation from the police — the actions of the owner of the car were such that the public were at risk, then under this new act the director has full option, full scope, to take that forward for a court decision by an independent judge. M.

Farnworth: I think this is a really important point that I want to make sure is absolutely right, and I want the minister to know that I think this change is important. One of the things we're concerned about and one of the things wher e I think there has been a weakness in the past has been that inability to target a repeat offender who is engaged in dangerous behaviour that is likely to cause injury or death to other people, because of a narrowness of the act.

What I hear the minister saying is that if someone is a repeat offender when it comes to street racing, for example, and they've been caught a number of times but haven't done any death yet, this act will allow for a process for that vehicle to be seized and for it to be con- fiscated from that individual, who clearly has a reckless disregard for the rest of the general population. Hon. J. van Dongen: The member is absolutely cor- rect. That is the intent of the legislation — to provide the opportunity to present to a B.C.

Supreme Court judge a situation where, in a repeat offender situation, the actual serious injury or death hasn't occurred. I'm advised that this legi slation, this amendment, was developed in consultation with the superintendent of motor vehicles. It is clearly the intention of the gov- ernment to be in a position to allow the director of civil forfeiture to use this

section more aggressively to deal with the kind of conduct he describes by an owner of a motor vehicle. This will be part of our overall street safety program. [1550] M. Farnworth: Hon. Chair, I'll take this opportunity to raise one of the questions that I asked in the second reading debate. If this is not quite the right section, you can tell me what the appropriate

section is. But I think this is the appropriate place to raise the issue, which is: if a vehicle is seized, then how is it disposed of? Is it sold at auction, or is it destroyed?

11454 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 This is one of the questions I had or one of the issues that I want to flag for the minister. I think it's important. How does the minister intend to deal with…? A vehicle is used in street racing, and then it's sold. I mean, it may be one thing for a standard, regular vehicle that has been driven at a high speed and ends up being confiscated. Then it could be sold to a respon- sible driver. It's quite another if the vehicle that has been seized has been modified specifically for street racing.

Really, the only person who would buy that would not be a regular driver but rather someone who would be using it for street racing themselves. Hon. J. van Dongen: In the example that the mem- ber has given of a vehicle that was seized under the Civil Forfeiture Act on an order by a judge, our branch would sell that vehicle. But any vehicles that are sold can only be sold lawfully in the prov ince of British Columbia if they are in compliance with the Motor Vehicle Act.

Where a vehicle has been modified to such an extent that it is not in compliance with the Motor Vehicle Act at the time of seizure, then it would be…. The consideration or the duty of our ministry would be to decide whether that vehicle can be economically reinstated to a legal condition under the act. Where that cannot be done at a cost that is recoverable through the ultimate sale of that vehicle, then that illegal vehicle would be crushed. That vehicle would go to scrap. I think the member raises a very valid question, and there are provisions under the law to deal with that situation.

If it can be modified appropriately and economically, then it would be the decision of the di- rector to make those modifications and sell that vehicle to recover the cost and for some additional dollars that would go into the fund. [1555] M. Farnworth: I appreciate the response of the min- ister. I understand what the minister is saying about modifications and the vehicles that are modified outside of what the act allows, but there are modifications that are allowed within

an act. They're legal, but they clearly take a vehicle from what may be just driving to and from work or for pleasure to where the primary focus of the vehicle is a different use. You know, it's designed for speed. There's nothing wrong with that if it's used in the legal way. But what about those vehicles that are within the law and…? In essence, what you're doing by putting them up for sale is basically inviting somebody else who wants to use them for a street-racing purpose. How do you deal with that situation, or do you? Hon.

J. van Dongen: I think the member, in raising the question, may be getting a little bit beyond the scope of the Civil Forfeiture Act. I will confirm to him that the legal test for the director is that if he or she decides to put up that vehicle for sale, it has to be in compliance with the Motor Vehicle Act. Having said that, the director has discretion, if they feel it's in the public interest and appropriate, to make any other changes to the vehicle that they think may be appropriate and that may in fact contribute to the ulti- mate proceeds from the sale of that vehicle.

So there is discretion that the director could apply in other changes they may make to the vehicle, beyond what is legally required in the Motor Vehicle Act, for it to be in full compliance. M. Farnworth: The question may be beyond the scope of the act, but I ask it for a specific reason. That is, we're widening the scope of civil forfeiture. We support that, and we think that's a good thing, particularly when it comes to dealing with issues such as street racing.

Also, I think it can apply to other types of vehicles that may be captured by this legislation — for example, vehicles used in gang violence or by criminal gangs. A lot of those vehicles tend to be high-end vehicles, so there is a real incentive to look at being able to buy those vehicles when they come up for sale. The point I'm trying to make here is that we need to recognize that this will be one of the consequences of expanding that, and it's something we need to pay at- tention to.

I don't want to see us in a situation where we are either putting vehicles back on the street to be bought by people engaging in illegal street racing or where high-end vehicles can be seized and then sold and put out on the street for people engaged in crimi- nal activity to pick up at a lower price and be able to continue their illegal activity. [1600] One of the questions I ha ve is: when property is disposed of, has the minister looked at…? Do we, for example, do background checks on individuals? A vehicle that has been used in street racing may be legal. It has been modified legally.

It could still engage in that activity. D o w e d o a n y t h i n g t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e p r o s p e c t i v e owner…? Do we check their background to ensure, for example, that they have not been charged nor have a record of street racing — o r w i t h v e h i c l e s t h a t h a v e been seized in relation to the illegal drug trade, that we're not, given the nature of those vehicles, selling them to people who have a criminal record engaged in, for example, illegal drug activity or gang activity? [1605] Hon.

J. van Dongen: I think I understand the mem- ber's concern in raising the question, where he's suggesting the possibility of a vehicle that has been modified for a specific purpose may be legal under the Motor Vehicle Act but may be modified in such a way that would predispose the use of that vehicle to commit another crime. I think that's the scenario that he is speaking to. In answer to that, the director of civil forfeiture has full discretion to make a determination, if a vehicle is legal under the act, whether or not it is in the public interest to sell a vehicle with certain modifications.

It is certainly my view that he would make that considera- tion if that possibility existed. The disposal of assets that are seized under court order through the Civil Forfei ture Act is done through the asset investment recovery branch of the provincial

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 16, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 11455 government. This is an on-l ine auction to sell to the public surplus government assets, and all of the normal rules would apply there. I think the member was asking whether or not un- der the system we have we could do background checks on people bidding th rough that system. I think that all of the normal legal constraints we operate un- der through that system woul d be applicable for assets seized under the Civil Forfeiture Act, in selling through that asset investment recovery auction.

Section 5 approved. On

section 6. M. Farnworth: I'd just like to ask the minister for the specific reasons for changi ng this. Is it on the basis of court decisions that have already come down, or is it some concern on the part of the ministry that there is an area of the legislation that needs to be strengthened? If he wishes to take his time in consultation on this particular question, I'm more than happy. If he were to take two or three or four minutes, I think it would be most appropriate. The Chair: We'll declare a five-minute recess. The committee recessed from 4:08 p.m. to 4:12 p.m. [S. Hammell in the chair.] Hon.

J. van Dongen: The answer to the member's question is that the basis for these changes comes from comments made by judges and legal advice from our own legal counsel. I want to be clear that the basis for these changes did not come from legal decisions of the courts. L. Krog: I just want to confirm the response of the minister. There have been no court decisions that have impacted on

section 8(5) as it exists that has led the government to bring forward

section 6, which will have the effect of repealing

section 8(5) as it exists? Is that clear — that no judge has said: "This is what I think. This is a case I've heard. These are the facts"? Hon. J. van Dongen: I can confirm for the member that there have not been deci sions by judges that have caused us to make these changes, but there have been comments in the courts by the judges about this section. These changes are simply intended to clarify

section 8(5) to ensure that the original intent of a civil test is met for this legislation. L. Krog: If I can remember, I think, what I learned in law school, this is what we call obiter dictum as op- posed to ratio decidendi, o r w h a t e v e r i t i s . I ' m s u r e t h e Attorney General remembers his Latin better than I do. He was in court more often. Is that what we're talking about? In other words, the comments that are not central to the decision of the court in a particular case? Hon. J. van Dongen: I didn't even go to law school, but I'm advised that the answer to the question is yes. L.

Krog: I want to congratulate the minister, be- cause I understand tuition is up to about eight or nine grand a year, so he saved himself considerable expense and trouble by coming to th at conclusion without the necessity of law school. [1615] With respect to this section, I'm very curious to know…. As the minister well knows, the Hell's Angels clubhouse in Nanaimo was seized, so to speak, and is the subject of an ongoing action. I'm not asking the minister to comment on that case.

I appreciate that this is before the courts, which I will cheekily say is an an- swer we've heard many times from the government benches in the last year or two. What I'm getting at is: are the comments of the judges such that they don't believe the

section will be effective or that they can enforce it? Is it lacking in clarity, per se? Exactly what is the problem that has been iden- tified by judges speaking about this section? Hon. J. van Dongen: The comments by judges that we considered are not considered huge issues but rele- vant to the legislation. It's our judgment that we wanted to make these relatively minor changes to clarify the original intent of the legislation. L. Krog: The phrase that commences both the existing subsection 8(5) and the new section, which is

section 6 of this bill, talks about: "Unless it is not in the interests of justice…." I'm just wondering. Has the court inter- preted what that phrase means within the context of this section? Hon. J. van Dongen: Could I just ask the Chair to confirm. Are we on

section 5 or

section 6? L. Krog: What I'm referring to is…. We are on

section 6 of Bill 17, which has the effect of repealing existing subsection 8(5). What I'm talking about is that subsection 8(5) as it exists now co mmences with the phrase: "Unless it is not in the interests of justice…." Likewise, the new proposed subsection 8(5), which replaces the old one…. I'm just asking: has the court provided any interpre- tation of what is a circums

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0416pm-01
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0416pm 01
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	59cceaa29a2ded83b6ec6523be0c13fdd35f935b

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).