Manitoba Hansard — 14 March 1968 (Sitting 6, 28th Legislature, 2nd Session)

28-2-6

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, March 14, 1968 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees 137 MR. JAMES COWAN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the first report of the Special Committee appointed to review automobile insurance. MR .

CLERK: Your Special Committee appointed to review the variations in automobile insurance rates beg leave to present the following as their first report: On Friday, April 21, 1967, the House resolved that a Special Committee be appo·inted to review the variations in automobile insurance rates as well as increases, without restricting the generality of the fore going, to investigate all aspects of automobile insurance and to make recommendations ... MR, COWAN: _Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Souris Lansdowne that the report of the Committee be received. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I presume it's the intention, although the report wasn't read in full, that it will be a part of the Votes and Proceedings as in the case of the past reports -- however, the other reports in committees were handled, I trust this will be the same thing. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Might I ask, Mr. Speaker, if it is the intention of the government to move a separate motion of concurrence in respect of this matter. MR. COWAN: The answer is "no". MR. PAULLEY: Then, Mr.

Speaker, before the question is put I would like to make a comment or two in respect of the report from the committee, and I appreciate very much the fact that the members· of the House are not in possession of the report and will have to be guided I presume to some degree by my remarks on the matter which I wish to raise at the present time. I think it's unfortunate, may I say, that there will not be a separate motion for concur rence because I think of all of the problems among the many problems that we are facing in Manitoba the question of automobile insurance is one of the major ones.

This matter has been before this House on numerous occasions and has been referred from time to time to different committees of the House and as the report of the committee indicates, the committee of auto mobile insurance which was established at the last session did meet some seven or eight or more times during the recess to consider the problems of automobile insurance. We were privileged to hear during the sittings of the committee from representatives of the automobile insurance industry from across Canada.

We were also privileged to hear from other organiza tions locally respecting this very important subject. But I regret very much, Mr.

Speaker, that there wasn't sufficient consideration given on the committee, or by the committee, to the consideration of the problem of automobile insurance pertaining particularly to the Province of Manitoba, because the committee was awaiting the report of the Royal Commission investigat ing into automobile insurance in the Province of British Columbia, and as a member of that committee I had suggested on a number of occasions that notwithstanding the fact of a Royal Commission sitting in British Columbia, it didn't necessarily mean that the committee could not consider and bring in some recommendations pertaining to the Province of Manitoba.

This was my understanding as a member of that committee, that at our last meeting, I believe, or our second last meeting, I believe some time in the month of December, the committee left in the hands of the chairman of the committee the authority to call another meeting of the commit tee prior to the start of this session. And I say to my honourable friend, the Member for Winnipeg Centre, he did call a meeting of the committee prior to the start of this session -- 10:00 o'clock on the morning of the start of the Session. And I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we should have been called before because the committee secretary had attempted to obtain from British Columbia information as to whether or not that commission was prepared to re port and the answer was "no", and this was some month or so prior to the 7th day of March when we started. I regret and I resent very much and stated so at our final committee meet ing, that the committee on automobile insurance had not been called as soon as information

138 March 14, 1968 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd.) was revealed and relayed to us that there was a likelihood that the commission report from British Columbia would not be before the committee. To be fair to the chairman of the committee, Mr. Speaker, I must say he did say to me, was there not some responsibility on my part to insist on calling the meeting or suggest the calling of the meeting. And I may be criticized for it, but I suggest that it wasn't my responsibility because that had been left in the hands of others to call a meeting together. I want to protest, Mr.

Speaker, that here once again on a very important matter concern ing the affairs of our province that there's no action, no action. Oh yes, we can have the com mittee re-established, almost immediately, to go to work. Now we're in the throes of a busy session; we can be given the authority to meet again after the House rises to consider the prob lem of automobile insurance in our province, but what is the result in the meantime?

That those who own automobiles, those who have automobile insurance in the Province of Manitoba still have to carry on in the unsatisfactory atomosphere that we have at the present time in Manitoba in respect of automobile insurance. So, Mr. Speaker, I thought that it would be advisable for me as a member of the commit tee to register the same objections as I did at the final meeting of the committee and to say how much I regret and I resent that once again there has been undue delay in facing up to one of the major problems we have in Manitoba at the present time. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Speaker, I, as you probably know, was a � member of the committee, and I would like to know whether or not the government does intend � to implement some of the recommendations that were made to the committee on several occa- sions on which we met.

One of the things that disturbed me very greatly occurred I believe at the first or the second meeting of the committee, in which it was reported by one of the larger insurance companies that a former registrar of motor vehicles of this province had made the statement that: "He could tell well in advance the five percent of the drivers that were causing 50 per cent of the accidents in the province. 11 And following that presentation I asked the chairman of the committee whether or not it was the intention of the government, and in light of that state ment, to make a presentation to the committee, because if the statement of the former regis trar is correct and if it is a fact that he could tell well in advance the five percent of the drivers who are causing 50 percent of the accidents, then all you have to do to reduce insur ance premiums in two is to deal effectively with these five percent of the offenders.

It would be as simple as that. And yet I was told that the province did not intend to make a presentation or recommendations as to how we should effectively deal with this five percent group. Now I would like to know whether or not we can implement some of the recommendations that have been made to us. For instance, I'm completely satisfied that if we could implement some of the very worthwhile recommendations of the various presentations that we could great ly reduce the number of accidents in the province, particularly the fatal accidents -- and those are the important ones.

I'm a strong believer in this breathalizer machine; I think it f should be implemented and should be implemented now, or at least let's give it a try. What's wrong with giving it a try? Maybe you'd have to adjust the alcohol factor in a few things but you'll never find out its effectiveness until you put it into practice. There are many other recommendations that are contained in the 50 pounds I believe we have now of material that was presented to us.

I have a bushel basket full I'm sure, and in that bushel basket there's some very worthwhile recommendations and I hope that we will be able to implement some of them before the final report is tabled in this House. Let it not suffer the same fate as the dental services committee report which we were told earlier this week was dead and buried. Let's keep this one alive and let's implement some of the better recommendations now. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR . T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I feel it incumbent upon me to say a few words; I was a member of this committee.

One of the main objections that I can make to the delay of the government was the fact that they did not call this committee together for its first meeting until December 4th; but in the month of December we did hold five meetings. Now prior to December 4th, there was an event of great historical importance took

part in this province, and that may have been one of the reasons why there was this delay. We're having a similar situation at Ottawa today and I can't say too much about that today. I do believe this though, Mr. Speaker, that I as a member of this committee am not yet

March 14, 1968 139 (MR. HILLHOUSE cont' d.) in a position to give an honest and sincere appraisal of all the material that was submitted to me as a member of such committee. This is a very im portant committee and the decisions of this committee are going to be of great importance to, not only the motoring public of Manitoba but to all of the public of Manitoba, and I would much prefer a delay in submitting a report to this Legislature than to have some half-baked legisla tion introduced at this particular session.

I don't think any member of this committee is in a position today to categorically take stands on any particular matters unless they do so from an emotional standpoint alone. Many briefs were submitted to us; briefs in respect of which there's a great deal of time and research work done in their presentation and preparation.

All I urge the government to do is to reconstitute this committee immediately, have this commit tee hold some meetings during the present session of the Legislature and let's get on with our work and see if we can't come down with recommendations which will be to the general benefit of the people of Manitoba as well as the motoring public. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Prov.incial Treasurer. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Provincial Treasurer) (Fort Rouge): The subject matter comes in my department and as the committee was originally established on my motion, I think I should say one or two things.

In the first place, it will be the intention of the government to introduce a resolution reconstituting this committee as soon as the members have been allo cated or established and there'll be no delay in bringing forward that resolution. The report that was laid before us really does one thing, the committee hasn't finished its work and it asks in the text of that report to continue and that will be our intention. I think it's only partly true that the work was delayed in waiting for the British Columbia findings.

If newspaper reports are correct that would be a sufficient reason in itself, because something in the order of a million dollars has been spent to delve into this question in another province and I think it would be wrong of us to complete a report or to begin action or to bring in legis lation until we'd had the benefit of those considerations in British Columbia. It's only prudent to wait that long - it won't be long.

I would think it should be open to any member of any com mittee, if they know a reason why the committee should meet again in the public interest that they at least communicate with the chairman or with the Minister answering for the subject in the government, and neither my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party nor the Member for Neepawa-·Gladstone showed the slightest interest in the subject until there was some opportunity to try to blame the government for not calling it, and my honourable friend said himself that he did not take any steps to get in touch with the chairman in the inter val about which he complains; nor did he give us any reason today or any description of the subject matter that he wanted considered between the last meeting in December and the meet ing just before the session opened.

He might at least have offered that much courtesy to the chairman of the committee to explain that he wanted another meeting called and to explain some reasons for the urgency thereof, whereupon I'm quite sure that the most active consider ation would have been given to calling a meeting to deal with any urgent matter that he had in mind. The same general remarks can be made about the Member for Neepawa-Gladstone.

He loves to get up and slash about and blame somebody for something that he himself doesn't understand, but in this particular case, neither he nor the other member suggested to anyone the calling of a meeting between the meeting in December and the meeting just before the ses sion was called. I think it would be quite wrong for the government to bring in legislation as my honour able friend from Selkirk has pointed out before the committee has had the chance to consider the matter. It may well be that individual members have fixed ideas about steps that should be taken or legislation brought in.

They will have a full opportunity to try to persuade the other members of the committee that their point of view is right, but until it has received the con sideration of the committee I think it would be wrong to bring in changes of any substance to the legislation when we are proposing to reconstitute the committee immediate ly. Well with those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I simply wanted to advise the House that at the earliest opportunity a resolution will be introduced into the House that the committee be reconstituted and I would expe,ct the House would pass it without opposition. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of privilege. The Honourable Provincial Treasurer inferred that I didn't know anything about the insurance industry. I have only been in it about 35 years and do a fairly big business. Is he insinuating that I don't know anything at all about the insurance business ? I asked some questions.

140 March 14, 1968 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN (lnkster): Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to participate in the discussion. I guess that I in standing here and according to the Provincial Treasurer, I am supposed to accept the responsibility because I was a member of that committee, for that com mittee not having done its job.

I think that this is a most unusual suggestion that the Minister is making that the blame lies for the committee not proceeding, for the committee not doing what the Legislature constituted it to do, upon those members of the committee who did not phone the chairman and say when are we going to have a meeting, which appears to me, Mr. Chairman, to be a very strange way of placing blame. I wish to say immediately, Mr.

Chair man, so there will be no doubt about this in the future, that I from my point of view at any rate, do not feel that I am charged with the responsibility of a committee not proceeding if the chair man refuses to call meetings. I wish to also point out, Mr. Speaker, that at the last meeting where we did have discus sions, that is the meeting prior to the meeting that was held last Thursday, there was a report that was going to be presented to the co=ittee by Mr.

Dygala, if my memory serves me cor rectly, or if rm wrong about the name, then at least by one of the officials of either the Department of Insurance or the Department of the Motor Vehicle Branch, and because of the lateness of the hour it was suggested that that report would be heard at the next meeting. The report was written, prepared and ready to be presented and I think all of the members of the co=ittee had the right to assume that the chairman would call that meeting and I think it's wrong for the Provincial Treasurer to suggest that we were the ones who had to initiate the meeting.

When we are in the role of the government and when we occupy the seats of those who must accept this responsibility I trust that we will do a better job of it, but in the mean time it's their responsibility and if there is blame to be placed the blame has to be placed on those people.

What we do know is that the co=ittee that was set up at the last Legislature has failed to bring in a report to this Legislature which in any way improves the situation of the people of Manitoba with respect to the automobile insurance premiums and the problems that have arisen with regard thereto, and which by the way the problem that the Legislature, I think by unani mous vote, charged this co=ittee and asked them to look into it.

Now the chairman appears to give as a reason that something is happening in British Columbia that may help us and I think that the members of the committee at the very first meeting said that if that report comes back in time for us to be able to use it by all means we'll look into it, but that the people of the Province of Manitoba should not have to wait.

They should be able to rely on their own administration, on their own committee, on their o>vn people to suggest to them a manner in which this problem could be solved and I don't think that it's incumbent upon the chairman to blame the members of the committee for the meeting not having been called. MR. EVANS: May I ask the last speaker a question ? MR. GREEN: Certainly, Mr>f>Peaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer. MR.

EVANS: Is the honourable memb er aware that he misstated the situation entirely when he stated that the chairman refused to call the meeting because you cannot refuse some thing until something is asked. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that I have not misstated the situation entirely, nor in part. The chairman by not calling a meeting refused, neglected or omitted to call a meeting; I'll use all those three terms, and I don't think it's a misstatement. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to try to put ... MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I would like it to be distinctly understood I have no objection the the Honourable the Member for Winnipeg Centre speaking if it's the wish of the House, but I raise the point of order that he can't speak a second time on this motion without unanimous consent of the House. MR. COWAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I didn't speak excepting for answering a question from Mr. Paulley whether the government intended to .•. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. COWAN: ••. and I said the word "no". MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I wonder if the HolLse would agree with me that possibly all angles of the subject have probably been discussed and explained from both sides of the

March 14, 1968 141 (MR. SPEAKER cont'd.) House and the statements given possibly be accepted for the time being. MR. CAMPBELL: .•• wouldn't dispose of my point of order even if that agreement were reached and the fact that some other people are wishing to speak maybe indicates that that's not the fact. As I said before I have no objection whatever to the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre speaking but I just v,;ant to suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, for your considera tion that he does not have the opportunity of a reply on this motion and that even though he did not speak in moving the motion the very fact that he moved a motion constitutes speaking. MR. SPEAKER: I had a feeling when he rose that he intended to possibly ask a question. However, if the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre wishes to speak I will be only too pleased to ask leave of the House if that is his desire. MR. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak. I wish to -- I moved a motion; don't I have the opportunity to close the debate? MR.

SPEAKER: If the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre would resume his seat I will ask leave of the House for the honourable member to speak. Does the honourable member have leave to speak? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Is he closing debate? If he is then I want to speak first. MR, SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Rhineland wish to speak? MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): I want to adjourn debate. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Rhineland ·wish to adjourn debate? MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster, that debate be adjourned.

MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills Before we proceed I would like to introduce to the honourable members our guests today. We have 31 honour students of Grade 10 standing from the Lakewood School, Kenora, Ontario. These students are under the direction of Mr. Schmidyke. The school is located in the con stituency of the Honourable the Minister of Education. On behalf of all the Legislative Assembly I welcome you all here today.

It is with some feeling of considerable pride that I introduce to you in my gallery 60 students of Grade 12 standing :from the Swan River School. These students are under the di rection of Mr. Neumar and Mrs. Stirling and Mrs. Baker. On behalf of all the members of the Legislative Assembly here I v.'ish you welcome and trust you have a safe journey home. I should in following the usual custom indicate to the honourable members that those students are from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Swan River. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Tuerville): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, if I may, I would like to take this opportunity to table the following annual reports: The Annual Report for the Manitoba Crop Insurance Cor poration year ending March 1967; and the Annual Report of the Manitoba Water Supply, year ending March 31, 1967; the Annual Report of the Department of Highways; the Annual Report of the Water Rights Act, year ending December 3lst, 1967. I should mention I believe the Annual Report of the Highway Department has been circulated to the members, it is my under standing.

The Annual Land Drainage Arrangement Act Report, also for the year ending De cember 31, 1967; the Watershed Conservation Districts Act, also for the year ending December 31, 1967; the Water Power Act. And that's it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for your indulgence. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. WALTER WEIR (Premier) (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, each year it is a custom early in the proceedings of the session of our legislature to pause for a moment and remember those who have been members of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba who have passed on in the period between sessions of the Legislature.

On this occasion it is my privilege to mention the name of Mr. Joseph Peter Lusignan who v,;as the Member of Manitou Constituency during the period 1927 to 1932. I presume that we just have one honourable member sitting in the House who was privileged to sit in the House with the late Mr. Lusignan. He v;as a man who I came to know a little bit, because he was one who appeared to maintain his interest in the activities of this Chamber and on usually

1-12 March 14, 1968 (MR. WEIR cont'd.) . . . . . more than one occasion a year he was here to sit in his place in the House that he was privileged to sit and take the part that he was still able to do within this sphere of the Chamber. It was my privilege and I'm sure the privilege of many of the other members of the House to meet Mr. Lusignan and come to respect the attitude that he had for public life.

I note that while he was elected in the general election of June 28, 1927, he left public life in the same way as many of the rest of us can likely expect to leave public life and this is with the general agreement of those who he represented and he was still able to maintain this. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is my privilege to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina, that this House convey to the family of the late Joseph Prospere Lusignan who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and it's appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active co= unity and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MRS . CAROLYNE MORRISON (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I consider it an honour to be permitted to associate myself v.ith this motion of condolence to the family of the late Peter Lusignan. During the years that Mr. Lusignan carried on his farming operations in the Somerset area, a very real bond of friendship developed between the Lusignan family and my late husband and in the years that followed I too had the privilege of sharing in that friendship.

As the First Minister has stated, the late Joseph Peter Lusignan was a member of this Legis lature from 19 27 until 19 32 representing the constituency which at that time was called Manitou but which would now be included in the present constituency of Pembina. When Peter Lusignan retired from farming operations and took up residence in Winnipeg as the Frist Minister has remarked he continued to have a keen interest in the field of politics even in his advanced years and I think it is of special significance that when we were here in session a year ago even although he had reached his 93rd year, Mr.

Lusignan on at least one or two occasions entered this Chamber quietly taking his place in the distinguished visitors gallery to sit awhile and enjoy the proceedings of this Chamber and then he would quietly leave the Chamber and wend his way to other places of interest. Besides serving in this Legislature, Mr. Lusignan also served on the Council and served for a number of years as Bailiff. The name of J. P. Lusignan will hold a distinguished place in the history of our province and I am honoured to second the motion of condolence to his six sons, his six daughters and all family members who survive him. MR.

MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, as the First Minister has indicated there are ,·ery few of us in the Chamber who can claim to have sat here with Mr. Lusignan but I nevertheless want to associate my group in this motion of condolence. My colleague, the Member for Lakeside did spend some time here in the Legislature at the same time as Mr. Lusignan and is in a better position than I to speak of the work that was done here in the Legislature. But it's certainly correct that Mr.

Lusignan did keep up his interest in the work of the House because I think virtually every member of the House will recall seeing him here quite frequently, not only in the Chair reserved here for past members but also in. our common rooms or in our coffee shop, if we may, where he frequently came and sat and chatted with various members of the House and kept up that interest in political affairs.

It is with regret that we see the passing of these pioneers who sat here many years ago and devoted time and effort to the welfare of Manitoba, and on this occasion I want to express my condolences to the Lusignan family. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate the New Democratic Party with this motion of condolence to our late friend. I enjoyed a few cups of coffee with the late gentle man in his trips into the Legislature and found him to be a man of high calibre.

It is a fact that every year practically some former member of the Assembly passes to the Great Beyond and it's really a tribute I think that we in this House are able to pay to men and women who have served their co=unity and their province. We regret their passing of course, but it is a fact of life.

I think that it is well and honourable for this Assembly to pass resolutions such as we have before us today to let the descendants of those who have gone to their reward know that they are still with us v.ithin this Chamber in thought if not in actuality, and I associate the New Democrats with this motion of condolence. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, as has been mentioned, I had the pleasure of sitting with Mr. Peter Lusignan during his years in this House and even though he and I sat on opposite

March 14, 1968 143 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd.) . . . • . sides of the House, we were good friends at that time and we remained good friends for the ensuing period.

As has been mentioned earlier, it is usual at approximately this time of the meeting of the new House, to have the votes of condolences for those who have passed away, and just to once more put on record the procedure which I think is a standard tradition in the Province of Manitoba, and a proper one, so that there can be no question of any partisanship in these mat ters, it has become traditional in this House - it's not followed the same way in some other Houses - but in this House it is the tradition that the motion of condolence is alv.'3.ys moved by the First Minister and alv.'3.ys seconded by the present incumbent of the constituency that was occupied by the late member.

This I think is a proper tradition and one that we do well to follow here. On this occasion it see1ns that providence has dealt more kindly with our former members than usual because I remember few, if any, occasions before, where only one motion of condolence has been presented and I understand that that is the situation today. It has already been mentioned Peter Lusignan was a pioneer and successful farmer. He farmed in that splendid district that the honourable member has already mentioned who now represents the area - one of the excellent farming districts of the province.

Peter farmed successfully, not only farmed successfully in his own right but he served in the municipal field as well as the provincial and I think that all of the old-timers in that area, certainly the old timers in this House, would v.'3.nt to record that although Peter was not as voluble in the Chamber as some of his successors - and I don't mean by that the present successor in his constituency, but some of the ones of us who now occupy the seats here - his contribution was alvrnys worthwhile and he certainly was a very popular figure.

I'm glad as one of his old- time associates to couple my name with those who have already spoken in paying tribute to Peter' s contribution in this House, in the community in general, to the church and the district which he served and to join in extending condolences to the large family which he leaves to mourn his loss. lVffi. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Orders of the Day. MR. WEffi: Mr. Speak,er, I wonder if I might just take a moment of the House's time before the Orders of the Day.

Because of the interest that has been shown and the confusion that there appears to be on a policy of the Government of Canada, I thought I might tell the House and a few of the press, of a telegram I sent to the Prime Min ister today. It relates to something that I think all Manitobans feel fairly strongly about and it's a constitutional matter in connection with the Indian people. I think it's always been felt here and certainly it is by the Government of Manitoba, that the welfare of the Indian people has been constitutionally a responsibility of the Government of Canada.

We have had some information from the Govern ment of Canada indicating a change in certain areas of this responsibility which were denied last night on television by the Honourable Arthur Lang. In view of the fact that we had the one statement in v.Titing at the Civil Service level rather than at Ministerial level, in view of the fact that the verbal statement of the Minister was made last night, I sent a telegram to the Prime Minister this morning which reads as follows: "We were informed yesterday by letter from your Zone Director of Medical Services that medical services for Indian people will be reduced.

The Honourable Athur Lang categorically denied these statements last night. We demand immediate clarification of these conflicting statements. This newly announced policy would be an evasion of your constitutional responsibility and would cause grievous hardship to Indian people. " So we would hope that we will get a reply in due course letting us know exactly what the policy of the Government of Canada is, whether it's that contained within the letter, because if it is why, the Government of Manitoba will take very strong exception to it. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Education. I think it's urgent at this time. The Teachers Association seems to be deadlocked with the School Division No. 1 in their salary negotiations and the urgency is that the budget deadline is tomorrow. What is the Department of Education doing about it? HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, on late Tuesday or - I believe it was - a letter was sent, or Wednesday, I received a letter from the Winnipeg School Division requesting a conciliation officer be appointed in respect of the negotiations that are going on under the collective bargaining between the Winnipeg Teachers Society - or

1-M March 14, 1968 (MR. JOHNSON cont'd.) .. .'.. the officers of the Teachers Society in Winnipeg and the School Board. It has been the custom and the practice ever since 1956, I believe, when these re quests by one party are received for conciliation to refer them or notify the other party. This was done on Wednesday. We then received a letter in return from the Winnipeg Teachers' negotiators registering a complaint and under

Section 460 of the Act, 430 of the Public School Act, the Minister is directed to send this to the Collective Agreement Board. Section, I think it's 39 7 of the Act, states that the Minister may refer this to the Board. The legal advice I have received indicates and the practice and experience in the Department in the former ••. Collective Agreement, everything points that the

Section 430 is specific and overrules the general, and when a complaint is raised by one of the parties in the bargaining process then the matter must be referred to the Collective Agreement Board under that section. Last even ing the letters were sent to the both parties informing them that the Collective Agreement Board would hear this on Monday next. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to address a question to the Honourable the First Minister in view of the statement he has just read to us of the areas of conflict insofar as the Indian may be concerned.

May I have the assurance of the Honourable the First Minister that notwithstanding any constitutional diff iculty or arguments between the Province of Manitoba in respect of the medical care of Indians that the humanitari an factor of the provision of adequate services - medical services - to the Indian will be taken care of irrespective of whether the province has to pick up the tab temporarily or it will be taken care of by the federal authority. I think in this particular regard, Mr.

Ch airman, the first consideration should be one of humanity first rather than constitutional diff iculties be tween the federal and provincial authority. MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, my answer to that question is I am assuming that there is no change until I hear definitely otherwise.

I'm accepting the statement of the Minister at the moment rather than the statement even though it's written, from a member of the staff and until I hear differently I don't propose to make any strong statements about it except to continue to insist that this is a role that Canada accepted and they do have financial responsibility in this area; whether or not the service is provided by the Province of Manitoba or who it is, the fi nancial responsibility is theirs. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplemental direct question?

Will the medical needs of the Indian people be taken care of notwithstanding these areas of conflict. MR. RODNEY S. CLEMENT (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day might I direct a question to the Attorney-General. Turning on my car radio this morning I heard what seemed to me to be a rather surprisin g statement by what appeared to be a well informed gentleman that 75 percent of the inmates in Headingley Jail were of Indian blood. Is this right or would you know? HON. STERLING R. LYON, Q.

C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): ... couldn't con firm out of hand the actual number of persons of Indian descent who are in Headingley Jail. There will be shortly coming down and being tabled before the House the report of that institu tion which shows the incidence of admissions to the jail. I couldn't confirm or deny the figure but the hard figure will be available for us as soon as that report is tabled. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable the Minister of Education.

Has the Minister now received a letter dated March 6th from the Ma nitoba Association of School Trustees dealing with the matter of some groups of school employees having the right to strike and others not having such a right? MR. JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker·, I've received a letter dated March 6th from the School Trustees Association asking about this matter. I've taken it under consideration and will examine the question. MR . SPEAKER: Did you have a supplementary question? MR.

HANUSCHAK: Is it the intention of the Minister to introduce legislation dealing with this matter, to introduce legislation related to the problem complained of by the School Trustees? MR . JOHNSON: Quite honestly, not at the moment but I like to give thoughtful consider ation to requests of this nature. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I was just going to ask the Honourable the Attorney General in the answer that he gave a moment ago did he say that statistics were available from the Jail as to the racial extraction of the inmates there ?

March 14, 1968 145 MR . LYON: My recollection, Mr. Speaker, is that it has been the practice in the annual reports that are laid on the table of this House, reference to which can be quickly made by going to the Clerk's office, that there has been indicated in each of those reports, if my recol lection is correct, the racial extraction of inmates in that institution, yes. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question. Is that not racial dis crimination? Is that not racial discrimination? MR . RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education.

In view of a great deal of public interest, the establishment of two Montessori schools and the likelihood of three or four more, has the Department of Education been observing or studying their operations for future use or information? MR . JOHNSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, all these methods are always under consideration by probably as knowledgeable people in the field of reading and education as Canada can enjoy. the Province of Manitoba's top people in teaching. MR . DOERN: A supplementary question.

Do I understand the Minister to say then that he has official representatives of the Department of Education looking into this? MR . JOHNSON: They're always looking at new methods. I have nothing specific to re port on Montessori at this time. It's in some of the nursery schools around Winnipeg but it isn't in our program of studies that I know of. MR . MOL GAT: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the First Minister. We were handed yesterday reports of the Royal Commission on Coraumer Problems and Inflation as established by the three prairie provinces.

Could the First Minister indicate what action has been taken to date by the Manitoba Government with regard to this report and its recom mendations ? MR . WEffi: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the report has been referred to the various departments for study and we'll be getting reports in due course. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Speaker, is it not a fact though that a number of the recommenda tions here would indicate the necessity of an immediate meeting of the three prairie .provinces and then a recommendation to Otta wa, because when you read the recommendations, a large number of them state "recommends that the governments of the three prairie governments urge the Federal Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs" - this is the first one, for example, on Page 427. The same applies to a number of the recommendations. It is my understanding that the Federal Government have already asked Mrs.

Batten or Judge Batten to go to Ottawa, and she was there yesterday, met with the Federal Minister, some people in that Department but that they cannot act until they get a request from the provinces, insofar as these specific matters. MR . WEm: Well, Mr. Speaker, the same action is being taken by all three governments and I presume as soon as we're in a position to logically discuss it that this is the course that will probably be followed. But in the meantime, it's a very large report and it does require some consideration before any serious discussions take place. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question either to the Minister of Industry and Commerce or to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I don't know which has the responsibility in this area. I refer to the Manitoba Business Journal, February-March edition which has just become available. It's dealing with the proposition of a proposed underground mall at the corner of Portage and Main, and the

article states that the last hurdle in the way of final plans is provincial government approval. The

article then goes on further to say that if Metro can excite the Provincial Government with the plan, construction of the mall could start in 1969. My question would be, to what degree does the provincial authority enter into this matter, whether it requires legislation or is the matter of concern a question of financial con tribution? HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs) (CYPRESS): Mr. Speaker, so far they have not presented me with any information or any plan, so I do not know in which way they might be asking for assistance. MR . PAULLEY: A supplemental then, Mr.

Speaker, if I may. The Honourable Minister indicates they have not asked of her any questions of the nature referred to in this article. I wonder if the First Minister, the House Leader could indicate as to whether or not any other Minister of the Crown has received any communication or request from Metro Corporation or the City of Winnipeg in respect of this matter.

146 March 14, 1968 MR . WEIR: Mr. Speaker, I think there has been some discussions, probably between the Minister of Highways and Metro. I think there's two or three things required, some of which is legislative and who has responsibility underground in certain areas; another one is financial. I am sure that the legal people are probably looking at the legislative one, either collectively in the A.G. 's department and the Department of Urban Development, the other A.G. 's and Municipal Affairs.

The financial aspects are related to the other contributions that are made for Metro and will be handled in light of priorities in that way. When there's an an nouncement to be made, it will be made. HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the other day I was asked a question by the Honourable Member for Elmwood about Concordia.

The Concordia Hospital, the functional planning has been done by the hospital and a meeting be tween the hospital and the co=ission is being called within the next few days and after those discussions are held they will proceed into the detailed schematic drawing. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with I would like to direct a question to my honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture.

Has the province ceased to accept applications for loans under the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Act or Corporation; and if the answer to the above is in the negative, why then were instructions sent out about a week ago to all of the provincial offices of the corporation to cease accepting ap plications for loans under the Act. MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is "no". Any instructions that may or may not have been sent out were sent out in error, if they were in fact sent out to all offices.

There have been some discussions and we are considering some changes as referred to in the Throne Speech within the credit corporations, but that's a matter of government policy yet to be announced. MR . HILLHOUSE: Could the Honourable Minister advise the House who made the error? MR . DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Health. Has the Department of Health done anything to establish a centre, a medical centre that would pro vide information or treatment for drug abuse or narcotics in the province? MR . WITNEY: No, Mr. Speaker.

The public health units though are available to give information to anybody who wishes to have it and of course there is available to all people out patients' departments and the physicians' offices. MR . GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to both the Honourable Minister of Health and the Honourable Minister of Education and to save time I would just put the one question. Does the Department of Health or the De partment of Education have educational films or pamphlets regarding the dangers of the uses of certain drugs to distribute to the public and the schools?

MR . WITNEY: Mr. Speaker, as far as the Department of Health is concerned I can't answer specifically whether we have films on the use of drugs. I can locate that information and give it to the honourable member. There has been though, Mr.

Speaker, just delving into this subject for a moment, a very interesting paper that has been prepared by the professional people of the Department of National Health and Welfare at Ottawa and we are now seeking a large number of copies from them, or permission to produce a large number of copies - this is with respect to LSD so that they may be distributed to all doctors and to all school teachers and we'll distribute them to the MLA's here within this province.

The information that is con tained in this paper is perhaps the best that has been obtained for some period of time and we will circulate it widely as soon as it is obtained. MR . JOHNSON: Mr. Speaker, we have ..• on that universal drug, alcohol, and we will be doing more - I should inform members the Grade 9 health program is being revised with respect to drugs, alcohol - not just alcohol but other drugs. The Advisory Board have referred it to the Health Co=ittee to see what would be the best approach in the classroom at that grade level.

I just notice someone has handed me our departmental bulletin which talks of a new film "LSD, Incite or Insanity". I'd have to check into it further, but it just goes to prove that things are happening so fast in education today that sometimes not even the Minister knows the latest films. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Agricul ture. Who was responsible for the error in advising the agents of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation that no applications for loans would be received and under what circum stances was that error made.

March 14, 1968 147 MR . ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I assume of course that theoretically the Minister is re sponsible for all actions that are taken in respect to the department but this particular one happened somewhere within the civil service. MR . HILLHOUSE: Under what circumstances did it happen? MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that perhaps we are getting into an area of questioning that is not suitable for Orders of the Day.

I think questions on Orders of the Day are intended to be matters of some urgency; matters that can be discussed during the course of estimates then of course can be discussed ·at that time. MR . JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order to my honourable friend. When we have reports of farmers going in to a credit office to seek a loan and they're told by the man ager that he is no longer authorized to give the loan, certainly members can raise this question before the Orders of the Day for clarification. MR . LYON: Mr.

Speaker, if my honourable friend had been listening to me when I spoke on a point of order, I wasn't objecting to the first question, it was to the second one. MR . SPEAKER: I wonder if the business of the House may proceed. Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY Address for Papers. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. John's that an humble address be voted His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for a Return showing copies of agreement or agreements in principle reached between: 1.

Manitoba and any United States power utility. 2. Manitoba and Ontario. respecting the transmission and supplying of power from the Nelson River Project to the above mentioned areas. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . STEWART E. McLEAN (Minister of Public Utilities) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in expressing our agreement to this, I would just point out that there is a memorandum of under standing which I take comes under the classification of agreement in principle and we'll be glad to buy that. MR . SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party. The Honourable the Member of St. Boniface.· MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Industry and Commerce was quite indignant when it was suggested that his department as well as all the other departments in the province had a propaganda sheet, or maybe I should say that he pretended to be indignant, because surely he knows that we are right.

I think the Member from Portage yesterday made his point clear to show that the government was screen ing the inforrm tion and was sending only the information that it wanted the people of Manitoba to see. And I think that my honourable friend the Member from Neepawa also made his point quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that some of the material that we get belongs in the nursery rhymes or in the kindergarten or in some of these places. I won't prolong this debate any longer, I'd like to just bring out a few of the sheets that I happened to see this morning and give you another example, Mr. Speaker.

For instance, on February 15th, there's some information here telling the people of Manitoba that "Labour_ faces bright future in Manitoba. Average weekly wages of at least eight percent, " this is very good. Well, I've looked all morning, Mr. Speaker, to see one that was telling us that Manitoba tops the prairies in unemployment and I couldn't find it. Why is it that - the honour able - what was that, Mr. Speaker? HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne): ... MR . DESJARDINS: My friend - you mean the Tribune?

Yes, the Tribune had it, but it certainly didn't come out from your department, it certainly didn't come out from your de partment, you were very careful -- Mr. Speaker, I will address my remarks to the Chair. I think that it was very obvious that my friend wants to do a little bit of bragging and exaggerat ing, but if he wants to educate the people of Manitoba why doesn't he tell all the truth, or does he deny that this is right? Does he deny that we are going through unemployment here in Manitoba, that we're leading the provinces.

There's another one here: "Province gets teeth into health education." I read the whole

148 March 14, 1�68 (MR. DESJARDINS cont' d. ) thing three times; I didn't see anything about any report from the Minister of Health that the Commi ttee of Denturists that spent thousands of dollars of the money of the people of Manitoba was all of a sudden dead, and somebody said buried. I think the people of Manitoba have been trying to find out something about these denturists for a long time. There is nothing on the propaganda sheet about this, or I haven't seen it. There's even editorials on this.

We've got a new government program cited, a series of government pro grams covering nearly every phase of provincial activity. They're talking about the Thron e Speech. Do you recognize this editorial on the Thron e Speech; a nothing speech again. This is the kind of information - and my friend is indignant - oh, how dare we say that this is propa ganda, how dare we. We talk about the Minister of Agriculture here. Mr.

Enns said co operative effort between farm ers, farm supply, marketing agencies and government has al ready produced dramatic achievements. rd like to ask the people, the farm, about this co operation - (Interjection) - We might come to you later -- about this co-operation between the Minister, the government and the people that are interested in far ms. Now this is really a good one, this is one that is very educational. It starts: "Province of Manitoba foster mother to fish. " No one can lay fish eggs except the mother fish. Did you know that, Mr. Speaker ?

No one can lay fish eggs except the mother fish. rm sure you didn't know that. If you want any more of these, if you would like your name on the monthly mailing list of the Conservative Newsletter, I mean Conservation Newsletter, please write the Con servation Newsletter and so on, you can get all the copies you want. It goes on to say that people are sometimes better than fish at raising eggs and getting the fish up to a catchable size; this is why w� have a fish culture program in our Fisheries Branch. We start in the fish rearing business, stripping or milking the female fish of their eggs.

I thought this was a picture, I think Salvador Dali must have prepared this picture, but it's not the Minister milk ing a fish, I can't recognize this. We can't make more fish than there are eggs, but we can reduce the hazards of these eggs once they are laid. I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if you want this Conservation Newsletter that you can wr ite to Room 100'0, Norquay Building and get as many copies as you want. - (Interjection) -- Yes, that's right, it's got ... -- (Interjection) - Some fish need cold water, others warm water - well there's a bunch of poor fish in Manitoba - some fast moving water, others slow moving water, others with water that doesn't move. Some fish eat only certain kinds of food while others eat something else. Therefore, any stock must be done within the limits imposed by nature.

We can't put a cold fish in warm water - it comes to something like that anyway. A MEMBER: ••• in the Book of Revelations. MR. DESJARDINS: Now there 's another one, this is really -- in closing rd like to bring this - it's really information that the people want. This one here, nothing to do with politics at all. The people of Manitoba are entitled to know that the Honourable D. Craik, Minister of Mines and Natural Resources at 6:30 p. m. will bring greetings from the province to the St.

Vital Junior Chamber of Co mmerce; and at 6:00 o' clock the Honourable George Johnson, Minister of Education, will bring greetings from the province to the Canadian Association of Adult Education; and then at 2:00 o' clock that the Minister of Agriculture will make the opening remarks at Stony Mountain, St. Joseph's Catholic Church Annual Tea. That's not politics at all.

I can't find my Leader opening a tea in I think it was La Broquerie or somewhere on that day, and I think the Honourable Member from Selkirk was opening a tea - there's nothing in there at all - but this is the kind of information that the people of Manitoba want, this is the government of priorities, saving money, with this kind of stuff.

Now I wonder if the Minister is still ready to stand up and say that we need this kind of thing in Manitoba and this is for the people of Manitoba, nothing else; that it was just a co incidence that they changed this from red to blue, didn't mean anything else, this is not a propaganda sheet for the Conservatives here in Manitoba. I'm very anxious to know the cost of all this, Mr. Speaker, and so are the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honoura ble Member for Kildonan, that debate be adj ourned. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and afte r a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: Coroner's report

March 14, 1968 J-\9 (:MR. HAJ\LJSCHAK cont'd. ) pursuant to an inquest into the death of a female patient at the Manitoba School for Retardates at Po rtage la Prairie sometime betv..-een January 1, 1968 and January 22, 1968 as a result of injuries suffered in a fall from a water tower located on the grounds or in the vicinity of the said school. :\IR. SPEAKER presented the motion. :\IR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I'd be happy to accept this Order.

As I understand it the final portion of the inquest proceedings are still pending but as soon as they are completed we'll answer the Order by pro viding the result of that inquest as it is transmitted to us on the regular coroner's report form. :\IR . SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. :\IR. PE TER FOX (Kildonan): :\Ir.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Burrows , that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: Copies of all correspondence between the Manitoba Labour Management Review Co =ittee and the Govern ment and all correspondence between the Chairman, Professor Woods and the Manitoba Gov ernment concerning matters referred to the above Committee and the Chairman. :\·IR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. l\IR. HANUS CHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: (a) ::\umber of secondary teaching permits issued as of September 1, 1967. (

b) Number of elementary teaching permits issued as of September 1, 1967. (

c) Number of sec ondary classrooms scheduled for operation but \\ithout teachers, certified or permit, as of September 1, 1967. (

d) Xum ber of elementary classrooms scheduled for operation but \\oithout teachers, certified or permit, as of September 1, 1967. (

e) Number of secondary teaching permits issued between September 2, 1967 and :\:larch 1, 1968. (

f) Number of elementary teaching permits issued between September 2, 1967 and March 1, 1968. l\IR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. -:\ill •. LE l\IUEL HARRIS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, sec onded by the Honour able Member for Wellington, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. Number of newspa pers, magazines, trade jo urnals published outside of Canada in which advertisements were placed seeking i=igrants and workers for Manitoba. 2. Names of such publications and countries in which such advertisements were carried. 3.

Copies of each different advertisement carried. 4. Xumber of persons who came to Manitoba as a result of such advertisements. 5. :\umber of persons who came as a result of such advertisements that have since left Manitoba. :.\IR. SPEAKER presented the motion. HOX. SllJt-,"EY SPIVAK, Q. C. (I\·Iinister of Industry and Co=erce) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, in accepting it, I would just like to tell the honourable member we ·will furnish him with wha tever information we have. :MR. MOLGA T: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, I think the Minister should maybe clarify what he means by "whatever information we have. 11 Presumably from what I have understood, the branch or the department have been carrying on an extens ive advertising campaign in Great Britain for example and I assume that they have either done this directly by contacting news papers or they have asked an advertising agency to do it.

Well if they have done it directly, obviously the Miilister \\ill have the information; but if he has used an advertising agency, then he could tell the House, well we don't have the information, the advertising agency has. I would hope that he will go beyond what appears to be a very simple answer and give us the in formation as he can obtain it from other sources. :\IR. SPIVAK: :\Ir. Speaker, I assume that's a question directed to me and I can answe r. There is a misunderstanding. The information I' m referring to is

section 4 and 5. There is no thought of not furnishing you with what ever information, advertising agency or through the government offices. :\IR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. l\IR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing :

15 0 March 14, 1968 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd. ) Detailed breakdown of monies expended for Industry and Commerce item 2 (

c) shown on page 135, Public Acco unts 1966-67 for the following: 1. Advertising and Exhibits $140, 953. 21 2. Fees $193, 907. 15 3. Grants $121, 750. 00 4. Other $487, 053. 49 5. Printing, Stationery, etc. $131, 87 2. 29 6. Wages and other assistance $ 68, 832. 50 (

a) Showing in each case persons or firms to whom payment, fee s, grants or wages paid (not including Manitoba Civil Service personnel). (

b) Where expenditures made in each case (

a) Manitoba (

b) Other Canadian provinces (

c) Other countries (

c) Amount of expenditure refe rred to above for each area (

d) Purpose of expenditure (

e) Were expenditures for advertising, printing, stationery made: ( 1) by public tender ( 2) by contract ( 3) other. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1. The number of new industries established in Manitoba in 1967. 2. The location of each such industry. 3. The number of employees employed by each such industry. 4. The original capital invested in each industry. 5.

The number of business fai lures in Manitoba in 1967. 6. The total liabilities involved in such failure s. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, in accepting it, we will furnish the House with all the in formation we have subject to questions of confidenti ality, if they've been requested. MR. PAULLEY: .•• question to my honourable friend. I wonder if he would mind ex plaining what he means by "questions of confidentiality. " MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm assuming a question has been asked of rre and I can an swer. -- (Interjection) -- Well I'll answer the question.

Part of the information that the De partment Vlill be able to bring to the attention of the House is information that's gained from a survey of new industry or new proposed industry for Manitoba; part of this information is furn ished to us by way of confidentiality. We are going to be able to give you I think the aggregate figure s here; it's possibly going to be diff icult for us to give you the breakdown because it' s been specifically requested that this not be given and furnished as specific information.

We can use it in terms of an aggregate amount as far as industry but not for a particular industrial development. MR. PAULLEY: ... Mr. Speaker, now I must make a speech. I am sure that the Hon ourable Minister of Industry and Commerce is in error, because I' m not asking information for the future -- we're not asking information of the future but of the past, and surely, surely Mr. Speaker, the Department has got the information as to the number of new industries eat ablished in Manitoba in 1967. Certainly I'm not asking for what might be.

I might ask how many were not established in 1967 that were indicated that would be established the year before, but that's not the Order for Return. So I don't see any areas of confidentiality in the Order for Return being sought by my colleague the Member for Logan, that rather it's all in the past not for the fut ure.

So I can't see any area in which the Minister cannot supply the information unless some of the items may be not completely available insofar as business failures are con cerned, may not have been wound up, I can appreciate that as far as the rest of the information is concerned - and even that is in the past tense and not the future. So I direct that question to you. MR. SPIVAK: I'll answer the questio,n. The business failures come from the Dominion

March 14, 1968 151 ( :\IB. SPIVAK cont' d. ) .•••. Bureau of Statistics and they are available to Members of the House even outside the House, but we will furnish them to you. Some of the information that we obtained is confidential information that is given to us by industry to the Department. This is confidential information ci the industry not of the Department. We will furnish you with what ever information we can. M:R. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. . . . . . . . . . . . . . • continued on next page

15� March 14, 1968 MR, PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, That an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: Detailed breakdown of payment of $207, 316, d9 to Ca mp and Associa tes as shown on page 205 Public Accounts 1966-67 showing: (

a) purpose and amount of each sepa rate payment made. (

b) by whom each expenditure authorized. (

c) was expenditure for fees, services or goods. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make a brief comment as to the reasons for asking this return. It seems to me that this is a very huge expenditure of money going to a firm that is outside, basically outside of the province of Manitoba. It seems to me that the Minister of Industry and Commerce, the Minister of Labour, the Minister of Edua.. ation and others are all vitally concerned with the creation of employment in Manitoba with the retention within Manitoba of our trained educated personnel in many fields .

It seems to me that we have very qualified personnel in the province who could well possibly do the work for which this expenditure is made outside of the province. And of course there is the other factor, Mr. Speaker, that rumor had it, or press reports had it, that this same firm of Donald Camp and Compa ny either have received or are on the brink of receiving an additional $700, OOO of Manitoba money for services in the advertising field.

Now, I appreciate the fact that there was a denial made in the media of the press - I believe it was by the Minister of Industry & Commerce - that such was not so, and this was accompanied in another

section with somewhat of a qualification, the qualification being that we haven't got our budget approved as yet by the legislature and of course we can't spend any money until we get it - I don't know if that's true or not. But my whole point, my whole point in asking for this return is to try to indicate another field of governmental activity where Manitoba dollars are apparently going outside of the confines of the province to the detriment of progress within the province.

It's my understanding that there are a number of locally established adve rtising agencies, trained personnel, that can handle the job here in Manitoba, and I want to say to the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and to the govern ment through him, that we were watching very, very closely all of the expenditures in this field, not because of the fact that we don't think that it is necessary to advertise Manitoba but we think that the place to start advertising Manitoba is within Manitoba itself first. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return.

The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Burrows, that an CXder of the House do issue for a Return showing: Breakdown expenditure of $280, 522, 50 to Liquor Control Commission, Winnipeg, as shown on page 229, Public Accounts 1966-67. MR . SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. The Honourable leader of the Opposition. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St.

George Constituency that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the amount received by the Manitoba Government from the 5% sales tax in each month since its inc�tion. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, before the question is put, I wonder if I just might say a word. I'v e made the Order specifically very simple so that the Minister would have no difficulty getting the information.

I would assume that the information is kept in the Department in that form in any case, becaus e in their budgetting prior to establishing the 5% sales tax there had to be some calculations rmde as to what the tax would produce. This was obviously done by the Governm ent then. Then subsequently, as the taxes came in - the returns come in on a monthly basis from the collectors, so I assun;e that the information is kept in the same form in the Department. I would hope, therefore, that we might have the information say as soon as next week on this Order. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate, the fact that this is phrased in a way that I can answer it. We 're not able to say what the accrued tax is, of course, because that is

March 14, 1968 15 3 (MR. EVANS cont'd. ) only revealed when the return does come in and so the question is in a form that makes it as easy as possible for us to answer. I'l l do so as soon as I can. MR. SIBAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bills . HON. GURNEY EVANS presented Bill No . 2,

an Act to amend The Insurance Act (1) , for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, there is an organization known as the Assoca tion of Super intendents of Insurance, and the Superintendent of Insurance of Manitoba belongs to this Assoc iation. Once every 10 years they put forward, they revise, or examine and revise the Insur ance Act and put forward amendments in a uniform way across the country in the various provinces, and one such recommendation is contained in this bi ll.

The change proposed in this regard on the recommendation of the Superintendents of Insurance is that the necessity to request the cancellation of an insurance policy in writing be removed. Until now it has been necessary for the insured person to request in writing the cancellation of his insurance policy. By this means, the insured person will be able to effect the cancellation of his policy by telephone and have that telephone messa ge confirmed at a later date, in writing and by the surrender of the policy.

This , I think, is an advantage to the insured and enables in many cases the cancellation to be made perhaps one, two or three days earlier, possibly with some saving in the premium in that way . This bill will also repeal the provisions which allowed for the assigned risk plan in Manitoba. The assigned risk plan has been discontinued.

The insurance for people who nor mally were in the assigned risk plan class is now being carried out in a different way and a way that's more satisfactory, I understand, to the insured, less embarrassing for those who are risky cases; it enables those cases to choose their agent, choose the company that they �ish to be insured in, and to receive the insurance by dealing with that agent. So, because the assigned risk plan has in fact been discontinued, the provisions in the Insurance Act which enabled the assigned risk plan to continue, are being cancelled.

It also provided that insurance companies under the jurisdiction of this province be enabled to make investments in the same ciass of securities that companies under the Federal Act can make. In other words, when a provinci al company has funds to invest, it may invest in the same securities that a federally incorporated company may invest in. There is the repeal of an obsolete provision concerning certain fraternal asso ciations, the necessity of which no longer exists .

There is a procedural change under which the renewal date for half of the adjusters' licences be made the end of June instead of the 3lst of May. Up to now they have all fallen due on the 3lst of May. We are now making provision for half of them to fall due to be re newed in the month of June, merely to level out the work ove r two months . There is also a provision under which it will make it possible for a man to act as an assistant adjuster in the insurance business for a period longer than one year.

Up to now he has been allowed to act as an insurance adjuster only during the period of one year but there seems to be no reason to prevent him doing so. If someone wants to employ him in that cap acity and he wants to continue to work as an assi stant adjuster, there seems no reason that he shouldn't be allowed to continue to do so, and this change in the Act will make that possi- b�. . There is also a provision in a new subsection requiring that a person may be licensed as an insurance adjuster only after he has had not less than one year's experience working as an assistant adjuster.

My understanding is that the Superintendents of Insurance are work on a rather more elaborate set of qualifications for adjusters, but in the meantime, it seems right to say that anyone who ho-lds himself out as a qualified adjuster should have had exper ience of at least one year in that kind of work . Those are the main principles of the bill. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his explanation. I gather that these same changes then are being made in other provinces as well, that this will move us along the line of comparable legislation in other areas . MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to make one or two obs ervations of the bill. I'm not going to oppose the bill going to second reading but I think there are one or two im portant parts of the bill that should be commented upon. Just a little earlier in this after noon's sitting while we were dealing with the question of the report on the committee on

154 Ma rch 14, 1968 (MR . PAULLEY cont' d. ) ..... automobile insura nce, the Honourable Provincial Treasurer in dicated to me, unless I got him wrong, that the committee that was considering the matter hadn't brought forth any recommendations of any material nature , due to the fact that we hadn't reached any conclusions within the committee itself and we were awaiting the information still coming back from British Col umbia. I want to draw the attention of the Hous e, Mr.

Speaker, to a clause that I don't think the Minister referred to at all on pres entation of the second rea ding of this insurance bill, namely the statutory provision in respect of cancell ation of automobile insurance policies either by the insured or the insur er. I think this is an important subject that we should give more detailed consideration to . I think the Minister will agree that I raised this question on a number of times during our delibera tions in the committee on automboile insuranc e. I raised it for two or three reaso ns .

Usua lly one of the principal reasons is that the statutory conditions of insur ance are usua lly on the back page of the automobile insurance policy, in very small print that nobody pays much attention to. I've made the suggestion that it should be required that the printing on automobile insurance premiums and contracts should be of such a si ze, or contain such directives , that there be no question of doubt that the insurer has the right to mid-term cancella tion under the statutory provi sion.

I appreci ate that after a good number of speeches in this House and the assistance of the former Provincial Treasurer, that most of the particu larly Manitoba- based automobile insurance companies have now adopted a policy of no mid term canc ellation other than for non-payment of fees . I apprecia te this very much but still, Mr. Speaker, it is going on "1'.ith some of the other insurance companies. \Vhile I frankly ad mit that the number isn't great, in my opinion it's still an area that we should take more cog nizance of in our legisla tion here in Manitoba. I think, Mr.

Speaker , that the Mini ster and the committee that will be conside ring this bill should also consider putting into the Act itself, some provision for appeal by the person whose insurance is cancelled. I think there should be some appeal factor, say, to the Super intendent of Insurance or some other body, because I'v e found on a number of occasions peoP,e have had their insu ranc e cancelled for no other reason than they may have been going around v.ith somebody els e's wife or vice versa, and I, on a number of occa sions , Mr.

Speaker, quite frankly , have pursued reasons for cancel lation and in the final analy sis information see ps through that this is because of this moral factor. Well, who is to be the judge ? Who is to be the judge as to morals insofar as automobile insurance is concern ed ? I think the onus should not be on that basis at all; it should be on the question of ability to drive the vehicle properly and other factors . So I want to suggest to the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer, who is in charge of this department, to give considera tion to some appeal. It's not only bad enough , Mr.

Speaker, that a person is su bjected at any time on 15 days' notice to hav e their insurance cancelled, but when they make application to another company for a new policy, one of the first questions asked of the particular party is as to whether or not their policies have been cancelled prev iousl y, and if the answer is in the affirmative it mea ns an increase in the cost of the premium to the insured if the insured in effect is enjoying the benefit - they ca ll it a benefit for the want of another word at the pres ent time - the benefit of having, say, a three year period of no cla ims; they lose all of that.

So I suggest, Mr. Speaker, while I say I'm not opposing the bill - I think that what is happening insofar as the

section in the pres ent bill, proposed bill, is better or clearer than it is under the statutory provisions that we have at the pres ent time and is an improvement - I would like to suggest to the Minister these two points: First of all, make it necess ary that the statutory conditions on insurance policies - and I guess the others as well - should be out in more clear print than there is at the pres ent time, or a warning or some darn thing on the face of the policy directed to this particular statutory provision, and, then, I would suggest to him, plead that there may be conside ration given to some area of appeal.

It's most embarr assing to people to be just told that their automobile insurance is cancelled; we won't give you any reason. It happened to me - al most. Just as I mentioned in the House some few years ago , in 1962 , my nei ghbour had phone calls wondering whether I was a responsible individual or not . Well, I don't think there's any question in some of the members• minds in this regard, but this is the same thing, Mr. Speaker, that has gone on and I suggest for the conside ration of the Minister the points that I raise in this regard.

March 14 , 1968 155 MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I share the concern of the Honourable Leader of the NDP in connection with this arbitrary power possessed by an insurer to cancel policies . I have had se veral instances of people coming to my office with a registered letter informing them that their policy had been cancelled, and I have tried to obtain from the insurer the reasons for that cancellation, without succe ss.

Now, in one or two instances I have come to the conclusion that an error was made in the identity of the individual in quest ion, and although I will vote for the second reading of this bill, I do believe though that the insurance companies should be advised that when this matter comes into Law Amendments Committee that they should be present so as to give the committee whatever information is required as to why this statutory condition should be retained, because I feel as the Honourable Leader of the NDP does, notwithstanding the fact that some insurance companies do not cancel during term ex cepting for non-payment of premium or excepting for fraud, I do feel that this statutory con dition should be changed so that an individual who has his policy cancelled should have some right of appeal to some body to ascertain whether or no the insurer is justified in the cancell ation.

MR . SIBA KER: Are you ready for the question? MR . EVANS : Mr. Speaker, I would like to make one comment with respect to the re marks of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition and perhaps someone whould be good enough to convey it to him, that I hadn't intended to say that all of the provisions that I ran over were those recommended by the Association of Insurance Superintendents for uniform application across the country. The only one I wanted to designate in that way was the first of those items and only that one.

I take it from my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party and the Member for Selkirk I have not been opposing those provisions that are put forward in the bill but I was suggesting further matters that should be considered. I welcome the suggestion that this should be taken up at committee. Certainly I will undertake to have the Superintendent of Insurance there and will convey to him the suggestion that perhaps the companies them - selves would wish to appear.

I don't know that it's usual to summon people in that way, but perhaps they would like to come, perhaps they would like to come and discuss the matter and give us the reasons. I'm sure they would be able to do it from their point of view far better than I could in the House here or in committee and so I will take up the suggestion made by my honourable friends that at least the Superintendent be there and I can assure that will be the case, and that the companies be invited to attend and discuss the matter with the committee. MR . SIBAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

MC LEAN presented Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend The Coat of Arms, Floral Emblem and Tartan Act, for second reading. MR . SIBAKER presented the motion. MR . MCLEAN: I think, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the members are entitled to a short ex planation of the bill. We have now

an Act that relates to the Coat of Arms, Floral Emblem and Tartan Act, and the revising officer has suggested and recommended to us that we present this short bill, the purport of which is to prohibit the use of imitations in respect of each one of these items. MR . SIBAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . LYON presented Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend The Unsatisfied Judgement Fund Act, for second reading. MR . SIBAKER presented the motion. MR . LYON: Mr. Speaker, a brief explanation. These amendments merely change the

definitions of "motor vehicle" and ''owner" for the purposes of the Act. Presently the Act provides that a motor vehicle means a vehicle that is required to be registered under the High way Traffic Act.

Motor vehicles that are owned by persons who reside outside of Manitoba are of course not required to be registered under the Highway Traffic Act until the owner has changed his residence to Manitoba and been in this province for some three months, so this ' meant under the old form that if a person was injured in Manitoba by a motor vehicle owned by a tourist or a person travelling through from outside of Manitoba, that the injured person could not make a claim against the Unsatisfied Judgement Fund if the tourist couldn't pay the judgement, and this was never intended to be the case.

As a matter of fact in 1965, when this Act was repealed and substituted, prior to that time this situation had been looked after in the old Act, so these

definitions are inserted to

15 6 March 14, 1968 (MR. LYON: cont'd. ) .. .... change that situation and to bring the Act up-to- date with respect to that definition of owner and with respect to the definition of motor vehicle. The new

definitions mak e it clear that "motor vehicle" under the Act includes a motor vehicle of the type that would be required to be registered if it were owned by a person re siding in Manitoba, and 'ovmer" mea ns any person who is the registered mvner or who would be required to be registered as the owner of the vehicle if he did reside in l\fanitoba. I point out that the Act is retroactive and is deemed to have been in force and effect from the lst day of July 1965, which was the date on which the Unsatisfied Judgement Fund Act came into effect after it was separated from the Highway Traffic Act. MR.

SIB AKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. HILLHOVSE: .... one question concerning the retroactivity of this Act. Are there any cases pending before the Courts just now that this subsection (2) would cover ? MR. LYON: My information is that there is one case pending in which othen\ise the plaintiff would not be able to receive benefit unless this amendment goes through. MR. SIBA KER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON prese nted Bill No. 8,

an Act to Am end The Jury Act, for second reading. MR . SIBAKER pres ented the motion. l.VIR. LYON: This is a brief amendment, Mr. Speaker, increasing the number of perso ns required to be ca lled for ju ry senice from 400 to 600 in the Ea stern Judicial District.

This was requested by the Office of the High Sheriff because rec ently they have found that with the limited number of 400 people some people have been called a se cond time for jur y duty in the same year, and by increasing the pool from which the jury panel can be selec ted , they hope to obviate this kind of difficulty which works a bit of a hardship on a citizen if he is called twice in one year. We are hopeful that this will do it. MR . SIBAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carr ied. :MR.

SPEAKER: The adjourned debate of the proposed motion of the Honourable Me mber for Virden, and the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the Honourable the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party in further amendm ent thereto . The Honourable Member for Lansdowne. 1\IR. M. E. :MCKE LLAR (Souris- Lansdowne): 1Ir . Speaker, I Rm very happy to se e you back in your Chair and in good hea l.th, and I wish to congratulate you again on the fine way you are conducting the business of this House.

I know in many cases you have your trials but you always rise to the occasion. Before I go on further, I wish to congratulate the mover of the motion, the Honourable Member from Yirden, and the se conder the Honourable Member for St. Matt hews, on the fine way they gave their add resses and also for what they told us v.ithin their add resses .

The me mber for Virden I think brought out one of the most important indus tries we have in Manitoba, the oil industry, and it's only unfortunate that when the good Lord ma de this world that Manitoba wasn't a little farther west so we could have taken advantage of a little more of the oil also a little of the potash, but we were very happy to have that amount of oil and as the me mber said, we are past our I think around 65th million barrel and it's still producing in large quantities . This has been a most unusual sess ion so far .

We have heard the philosophy, I think, of all our parties now, and especially yesterday I enjoyed the speech from our member for Rhineland and I thought once or tv.ice there he was getting just a little off the base on Social Cre dit against Medicare, then he got back on the side again but we are very glad to hear every thing is going well in British Columbia. I had hoped that he would have mentioned the province of Alberta because I think that is where the Social Cr edit philosophy is really prese nted to the people, a true conservative government in every respect, and I wished he had spoken more.

Mayb e he v.ill later in the ses sion, because I think that Mr. 11anning did a very fine job in that pro;,ince and everybody looks up to him. In the prmince of British Columbia they do pre sent a differ ent viewpoint, and at times you would wonder whether they' re both of the same political faith, but in both cases they are doing a very fine job governing their particular province.

Speaking on this amendm ent to the amendment of the motion, the Leader of our New Democ ratic Pa rty - I don't know whether he is in the Chamber at the prese nt time or not, or whether he has gone out - he was re ally up to true form in that particular speech. I thought he did a wonderful job. In fact I think he spoke the longest I have ever heard him in my ten years here in this Cham ber . He was really - he had his homework done and he seemed to

March 14, 1968 157 (MR. MCKELLAR cont'd. ) .. ... have the topics right there made to measure for him and he really went to town. In fact, I thought that he was going to play out near the end of the speech but he still seemed to have enough air in his lungs to continue on, and I'm sure that many of us enjoyed listening to his fine oratory on that particular afternoon. While many of us don't really agree with everything he said, I think that many of us realize his objectives - that he would like to be sitting over here in the fourth seat there, leading the province on in the ma n ner in which he thought.

There is only one thing I am sorry for on account of that, because I think that it will take many years for that to happen. I'm afraid he'l l be something like mysEif - he'll be gone out to pasture by that time and maybe some other young gentleman will have to take his place ---(interjection) - yes, that's quite true; he might. We heard a lot about Medicare in that particular speech. We heard a lot about the poor people getting downtrodden.

We heard a lot about I guess everything under the sun, that everything wasn't right, but all in all I guess you would take it that while things are bad, they could be worse, so I guess -- this is what I took from the speech after reading it.

Medicare is getting an awful going over these days and I'm sure it will get an awful going over in the next few months to come, because in Ottawa we are going to have a very most important occa sion happening in the first part of April and I would imagine on that particular occasion that will be the most talked-of subject during that convention, because I think many of the people with their different philosophies, including the members here who each have a vote, will be deciding the man that they are going to choose whetther he is for Medicare or half between or far to the right, and I would only hope that the gentlemen of the Liberal Party in Manitoba here will give good judgment in their decisions when �-ey express themse lves behind that little curtain as we did last September.

That little curtain, it doesn't take long to perform a deci sion behind there but it's a most important decision when you stop and think - that of electing, in your case, not only the leader of your Party but electing the Prime Minister of Canadafor the next I wouldn't say how long, but in the meantime he will be the man who will guide us either to win or lose in the next Federal Elect ion, and I would imagine it by predicting a date in the month of October, about the second Monday in October right after harvest, I'm predict ing, this is the date of the next general election. MR .

CAMPBE LL: The y're not going to defeat him in the House? MR . MCKELLAR: Pardon Me ? No you won't get a chance I don't think. I don't think you'll get a chance. No. The House will open around August. The Speech from the Throne and out to the people. I don't know how close .... will be but time will only tell . Well Mr.

Speaker, I'm always amazed at the different ideas that are approached.in this Legislature because you sometimes get a different approach from the rural areas than you do from the City of Winnipeg, and I think one bill that will likely be coming up at this se ssion will be re-distribution, and as the honourable man ber for Virden mentioned, our population has slipped a lot in the last ten years.

In fact it has over, I would say, the last twenty, twen ty-five - since the Second World War, and many of our areas are finding it very difficult, many of the smaller towns are fading out, and many of the farms they are closing up; and the population, after the school children, the high school, once they reach their 18th birthday after they have high school, are going to the city for their university training or vocational training, and very seldom do we see them ever come back only on holidays.

What has happen ed here on the farms, that where our farmers -- I understand in North Dakota the average age is 56 years of age and I think it is close to that in Manitoba. There are two conclusions you can draw from that.

Eventually we are going to have to keep some of our younger people, try to convince them that agriculture means something to the nation, and we must influence them that by having a degree is one of the requirements to be a farmer in the future, and I would only hope that somewhere along the line that more agriculture can be taught in the high schools of our province, and I think this is where we have to start.

I remember when I was back in Grade 1 or 2, I can remember when it was taught in the Twenties, back in our elementary school, Grades 7 and 8, and I think it was a sorry day when that subject was taken out of our school curriculum because I think that that was the trend that developed there that we kind of thought that science was the here-all of everything in our world to come.

So I would only hope -- I haven't talked of this to the Minister of Education; I'l l do so some of these days before the sessi on ends, but I would like to see somebody come up with something that can be done about this in the near future, eh, otherwise we are all go ing to end up with very few farmers left to look after the food needs of the country in the late 1970's and then on. I think this is one of the things that I am greatly concerned about because,

158 March 14, 1968 (MR. MCKEL LAR cont'd. ) ...... after all, if you don't have a strong agricultural base your country will not stand up. This is one of the basic industries that I know of in all the world, and more especia lly with our population increase going on in our other nations such as Africa, Asia and all those other parts of the world where the food supply is practic ally nil, so maybe with a little training maybe in the general course or some of the other courses, we can try to influence some of these boys to try to keep them back on the farm .

This past year we experienced our school vote for the se cond time and it was very sat is factory in the western part of the province in the constituency of Souris Va lley where I live, and also Turtle Mountain south, various areas, and now they are having their headaches try ing to sort out the problems but I think it is working out very satisfactory. I think that things are going along fairly good, from what I can understand and that the plans for phasing out the sc hools are not going to be as drastic as maybe some of us thought at the time; I think they are doing it with a lot of caution.

And I hope that the boards in the future will give as good leadership in their various school divisions .

In the vocational field I find that in Brandon many instances have been brought where the Department of Manpower have created many problems both to the work ing force where they can pay more money to go to school than what you can get actually in your job, and I know of many men that were driving in from Wawanesa, left reas onably good jobs to go back to sc hool, and I guess it is only right that people should go back to sch ool in their late 50's and early 60's but it didn't really make that much sense to me to fill up a desk when people -- I thought that many of our younger people could be taking advantage, but the only way you could collect this money was you had to be out of high school for one year, so it meant that the boys and girls leaving high school and going to vocational school they had to pay their own way along with some help from the bursaries that they might get from the Dep artment of Educa tion.

I imagine the Honourable Member for Brandon here will mention the progress that is being made in the University of Brandon, of which we are all very proud of in western Manitoba this past year to witness changing over from Brandon College to Brandon University. I'm sure that Brandon University will play a major

part in the education of the many students in western Manitoba for many years to come when they get their building plans underway in the years to come, and I know that it will be a very important university for those who want to take music, and arts and sc ience. I was very interested this afternoon in the dis cuss ion here that got on, on automobile insurance, and I didn't want to get up on that debate beca use I was a member of that partic ular committee . I must say that I did enjoy the work and I had the pleasure of sitting along side the Honourable Leader of the New Democra tic Party.

I tried to influence him all I could any time that I could reach him , because I am sure that somewhere along the line we did gain a lot from those meetings, those five days , meeting with the members of the insur ance industry, automobile insurance industry. I think they gave us much literature, and in fact I haven't started to read mine, and I don't know how anybody could have any idea of what they should start to do at this particular time.

I am sure there must be at least two weeks ' solid reading and studying before you could ever begin to go into a committee, and I only hope that maybe during the estimates here I can get on with the job. I realize the members of the Opposition have a major part to play in the estimates and they are going to have all their hands full doing their homework, but I hope to, during the estim ates, have some time to do some of the reading on this brief that we received on automobile insurance.

This past year in the constituency which i repres ent, Souris- Lansdowne, we did have some celebrations that I think will be long remembered, Ce ntennial celebrations, and I think that the people there will be looking forward to 19 70 when we celebrate our Manitoba Centen nial and we will maybe not open as many buildings, and I would only hope we wouldn't. I would hope we would have more activities such as sports days or community get-togethers and get to know each other -- well, people that have left our communities in the years gone by.

We did have the pleasure of having our Minister of Industry and Commerce out one particular day this past summer in an area east of Brandon, the municipality of Cornwallis, and I have some -- if the page boys will come here I'l l just pass them around and show you. I don't suppose you ever knew that he was a cat man but he 's got his picture in here. I was glad when he pulled the right lever - I guess he isn't in his sea t - but we had the particular pleasure along with the member for Brandon and myself and the Minister of Industry and

March 14, 1968 15 9 (MR. MCKELLAR cont'd. ) .. ... Commerce, the Reeve of Cornwallis municipality and the mayor of the City of Brandon, and officials, Mr. Kerchar, and the present general manager of Dryden Chemical. To many of us who were not aware of that particular industry which is now under construction, the member for Roblin constituency had done a lot of work on that particular industry, I come to find out, previous to that. He keeps secrets pretty well to him self.

It so happened one day I got a phone call from the Minister of Industry and Commerce telling me there's a new industry going in my constituency. I wasn't aware of this, that the member for Roblin had gone to that much work, and I felt kind of silly after I heard because I hadn't done any work at all myself.

But this particular industry is one that I think is going to be one of the most important industries in all of Manitoba in the future, because it' s bound to expand being a chemical industry in this area east of Brandon, east of the city of Brandon, in Cornwallis municipality with the big Simplot plant which now exists on the boundary , just between Cornwallis and Brandon, employing 250, and this industry here, Dryden Chemical, is 3 1/2 miles east of Brandon just down the same road, it's something entirely different. They drilled this well 3, OOO feet deep. It' s drilling for salt water.

They had an overflowing well at 3, OOO feet and the particular day we were there turning the sod this well was running over and I understand they capped it very soon after. With using electricity they can manufa cture muriatic acid, liquid chlorine, caustic soda, soda ash, crystal sodium chlorate, and these in turn can be used for the particular purposes which is stated on this particular West Man cop ies here. This is the first one in western Canada; there' s another one at Dryden, Onta rio and this will supply the needs, I understanq for all of western Canada.

This company is a subsidiary of Anglo Canadian Tulp and Paper Mills and who I understood is supposed to be in production this coming summer in July with a staff of 50 people. You can read in there and get more out of it when you'r e reading this particular magazine, but we do welcome Dryden Chemicals into the province of Manitoba and wish them well in the years to come.

Along with this Simplot chemical plant, which is now working at full capacity and shipp ing fertilizer to all parts of northern United States and western Canada, these two chemical plants will be of great value to our western Canada, and we would welcome any other indus tries in that particular area. One of the reasons why they come into that particular area, I think, which many people don't really know of, is not for its salt water, it's for its fresh water; and in that Simplot they have two wells. They are pumping at a capacity of l, 500 gal lons per minute.

The same stream they pump, they have a pump there, well, I think its cap acity is over 3, OOO gallons per minute, there's an underground river, the old - many of you have very likely read of - running from Missouri River to Lake Winnipeg, or Lake Manitoba. They're trying to locate the course of this particular river now and when they do I think this will be the greatest resource that we in Manitoba have, because here we have fresh water in the neighborhood of 300 feet, and in these particular wells that Simplot have, the y'r e capable of handling the whole city of Brandon.

This is a tremendous thing in itself and I think that much of this water in the future in southwestern Manitoba, the Honourable Member for Art hur's constituency here, will be used for irrigation, and I know that in that particular area it can be used to advantage because it's already been tried, irrigation has been tried in many parts around Melita. So this is one of the greatest things I think that we in western Manitoba can look forward to in the future, is the tremendous supply of fresh water that we have at a depth around 300 feet.

You will also notice in that West Man Topics, and I would like to say in this West Man regional development, that this is a tremendous asset to our western Manitoba, because it is of tremendous interest among all our municipalities and they're doing a tremendous job under the guidance of Mr.

Chapman, the Presid ent, and also Mr, Rod Bailey, the General Manager, and if you read inside you will see two very important towns which are also in the constituency of Souris-La nsdowne - and I didn't have anything to do either with the printing of this - the town of Glenboro and the town of Wawanesa, and they give us various stories on both and pictures of these various towns. So we welcome you to Glenboro and Wawanesa in the summer, any time you want, particularly in the summer of 1970 when I hope you 're tour ing our provinc e.

And also to the Sprucewoods Park which is opening next summer, we hope that you will have a look at this particular park which will be available to everyone in Manit oba, a provincial park, seven miles north of Glenboro. This highway which the park is on is 258, and will be completed this summer; the last stretch between Glenboro and No. 23 will be completed this summer and it will be available from Ca rtwright right north to Neepawa and on to Dauphin, and I hope that many tourists will take advantage of this particular highway.

16 0 March 14, 1968 (MR. MCKELLAR cont•d . ) ... . Now I was particularly concern ed about this big bible that we got pres.ented with us yes terday, the Report on the Royal Commission on Consumer Problems and Inflation, and I was hoping that they would say that the farmers are not getting enough for their grain and I looked through that 500 pages and I never found one, not one sc ratch. All they could say was that the mighty giants , the stores , were just robbing the people blind. Well, I don't know whether they are or not.

But I think that before the Honourable Minister - I don't know who's - is that the Honourable Provincial Secretary that authorized this report ? I think before he goes any fur ther, the next report he should take on is a Royal Commiss ion on Producer Problems. Pd be all in favor of that. And they don't hire any commissioners either. We in the Legislature, I think we got some real good citizens here that could do the job very well, and I know we could come out with a real good report. The amazing thing about these reports is that they give you lots of practice.

You've got to appoint another commission to go at the commission, so you end up you're back to where you started. I only hope that the Honourable Member for Glad stone and the Honoura ble Member for St. Boniface don't start reading all this to us asking for an Order for Return some day or we'l l never get out of this Hous e. But these are some of the problems with royal commissi ons, that you've got to set up another commission to study the first one, and , as I said before, what we need is a commission on producer problems such as wheat, livestock and other phases of agriculture.

Many of you know here that -- we hear about teachers' sa laries. That really burns me up. I don•t mind saying it either, because what does the government do in 1959 ? We brought out secondary education with new grants . Well, imm ediately that was scuttled and we were about $1, OOO over that just before the thing was printed. So they brought out another one last year, a brand new schedul e. Before that was printed they were about $1, 500 over top of that one.

They wanted 10 perc ent and I was figuring out in our sc hool division the other day, and I underst and we pay the highest sa laries from V ncouver to Winnipeg, higher than Winni� peg. If you have a Bachelor of Arts or a Bachelor of Science with Normal for teacher train ing, you start out at $6, 400. 00. The first two years you go up $400 . 00 each year, the last year you go up $500. 00 each year, which brings you $9, 700 after seven years of teaching. That means a man of 29 can be earning $9 , 700, but thatisn't good enough. That isn't good enough.

Each year after the first year you've got to ask for a 13 perc ent increase, so you end up -- and this is the

part I say is wrong, and I don't know, this is my personal thinking. I'm not repre senting anybody on this side. This is my personal thinking. I've come to the conclusion after listening this morning to some of the -- who is he now ? He's the union repres entative or what do they ca ll it for the Teachers Society. I don't know -- Busine ss Agent. Yes. Well, he was giving the pos ition of the Teachers Society this morning in their break down in their get together on the wage incre ases . Well, I don't mind se eing after their in crements are run out, after ten years or whenever .

I don't mind seeing them get a five or eight perc ent incre as e over top, but I hate to see them getting a $500 . 00 increment and then go up another 12 perc ent over top of that in one particular year . I talked with the trustees about it. They say they can't do anything about it because a contrac t' s a contract, but this is what' s bothering many people who are taxpayers, who are farmers and who are retired people, and other people whose incom es are static. In fact the farmers • aren't even static at times . Ours are a little irregular, I would put it.

So here you come where you're ..... . and it's quite true that if you can get a little more you ask for it, but at the same time let•s be fair with the people of Manitoba who are paying the shot, and I think we've got to look at these things both ways . I know that I won 't be the most welcome man in the Teachers Society when I say this, but I think that we each have a part to play in our economy, and each one of us repres ents a different phase of our economy . I happen to be in the production. I'm supply ing the food, try to supply the food to a few.

But if I was to go out and ask for $4 . 00 a bushd for wheat I know what they'd sa y; if I went out and asked for $3. 00 a bushel for wheat I know what they'd say. The y'd say you wouldn •t get it. And the same with $2. 50 the same with $2 . 00. You'd say you get what you're going to get, because the farmer has to pay what every body tells him that they 'll pay for it. He' s on a different -- he' s on the rec eiving end. So these are some of the things, but yet he tries to contribute his fai r share towards the econ omy by paying taxes in many ways.

I think one of the most unfortunate things as far as I can see, and people talk about inflation, and I think it was brought about by the government in power at Ottawa right now,

March 14, 1968 161 (MR, MCKELLAR cont'd . ) ..... and I think they will find out that this is partly the cause of it: when they brought out the Ca nada Pension Plan. I think that they'll find that this will be proven wrong, for many reas ons too; that you can't drain $40 million out of the people' s pockets in Man itoba, which it ends up it doesn't produce. The re' s no production of it. And I think that we'r e pension poor. There's many people that's gotten about three pension plans .

In fact this is not common, this is not common today, and I would only hope that whoever you folks elect over there, that you tell him the facts of life down there, that there' s only so much money in the people's pockets and I'm sure glad that I -- you can criticize my Leader all you want but he knows how many - at least I hope he knows - that there's so many dollars in the pot and it can only go so far. I imagine you'r e beginning thinking I'm sounding like one of those Social Cons ervatives you heard speak of in Alberta.

There' s so many political faiths, coming out right at this present time you never know wha t they mean but this new party that's being dev eloped now, Social Conservatives, I must do a little more research on that because thlt does not sound altogether what it might be although it might turn out to be the future too.

But these are some of the things that are bothering the people in the rural areas , and I'd like many of these things that they are having to provide, pay for, and their price and their products remain the same as they have for twenty years ago, and let's not forget the price of wheat is no different than it was in 1946, the same thing. In fact, if it hadn't been for John Diefenbaker's devaluation of the dollar it'd be a lot more, and I'm telling you, John Diefen baker made a lot of money for the farmers in western Canada due to that devaluation. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think I've carried on long enough.

The only thing that I'm partic ularly pleased about, because I imagine that while we had Centennial Year last year, we did have in the rural areas some heartbreaks too when the good Lord decided he wasn't going to give us any rain. Many of us after about the lst of July wondered whether we were going to . have a crop or not. I don't know what happened but anyway we didn't have very much rain but we had one of the finest quality wheats that we've ever grown, I think, in Western Canada. It turned out then, something like we were discussing this morning.

One member of our caucus who I met with the Manitoba Stock Growers, he said that if he has a thousand pound steer the packers don't want it, they want 1200; if he had a 120 0 pound steer they'd want a thousand. So this year -- every other year we've had No. 3 Northern Wheat, they alway s wanted No. l; this year we've got No. 1 Northern Wheat and they wanted No . 3. These are some of the problems that we have, but I must say we are very pleased at the way things turned out, and what we're quite concerned about now is the signing of the Inter national Wheat Agreement.

For those of you who are not acquainted with the wheat market, last lst of July we were sailing along real good. Grain was moving, box cars were heading to Fort William as fast as they could load them. All at once, over night, the countries never got together to sign an International Wheat Agreement. So here we were with all the wheat and other crops on our hands and no market. The United States immediately took advantage of this and started undercutting the price , which they' re still doing and causing great concern in the export market of our country.

At the present time, and I got something out of the paper yester day - it was March 13th - and it's one of those candidates in the Liberal Leaders hip Conven tion, the Honourable Mr. Winters, and maybe this is the last official statement he will make, I don't know, but it's a good one anyway and I appreciated it very much becaus e what it does tell us here is: . "A significant number of major wheat importers have pledged themselves to acc ept the higher wheat prices of the new International Wheat Agreement, Trade Minister Winters an nounced in the Co=ons .

He named Great Britain, Japan and members of the European Com mon Market. All countries who have signed the agreement . . . . convention last year are ex pected to complete formal acceptance by the July ls t deadline. The agreement embraces the price structure negotiated by the members of the general agreement on tariff and trade during the Kennedy Round tariff bargaining. After July lst member countries will pay or receive the equivalent of a minimum $1. 95 1/2 per bushel grade No . 1 Northern, wheat delivered to Lakehead or to or for Vancouver .

The maximum price was an additional 43 cents over the former agreement signed a number of years ago. It is understood that the major wheat expor ters, all of whom have ratified the convention, now are watching for a decision by Russia and members of the Soviet bloc. This group, important Canadian customers in the past, did not participate in the latest price negotiations but were members of the old International Wheat Agreement which lapsed in 1967 .11 And that's the end of the quote here, with the exception he

162 March 14, 196 8 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) ... went on to tell of the oats and barley payments which we' re all very happy about too, I must say, the prices that are now being paid. So I think this is a major breakthrough that at least we have a number of the major importing countries agreeing to the price structure along with the exporting countries, and I'm only looking forward to other countries falling in line so that we in Canada here will have a half a chance on the export markets of the world and will give some future to the wheat growing areas of western Canada. Now Mr.

Speaker, I think I'v e come to the end of my few words of what I want to say here, and I must say that I v.ill look forward to hearing the many speakers, and I know we 'r e going to hear some more philosophy on Medicare and so on, but I think we have to take a look at the hard facts of life from now on, tighten our belts good and hard, becaus e I tell you that no matter whether it' s Winters, Sharp, Trudeau or who it' s going to be, they only got so much money in that little old pot at Ottawa and our Provincial Treasurer has the same, and our municipal governments , and the sooner all those three get together and look things over and decide what comes first, I think, the better it will be for all of us, and I hope that this philosophy of mine meets with your approval.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, at the outse t I would like to congratulate you on resuming the office of the guardian of the conduct ()f this Chamber. I know that you have always done your work consci entiously and I confess that there have been opportunities when I have been the cause of your having to work perhaps a little harder than you should. I'l l certainly try to in the future make things as easy as pos sible for you. I'd also like to express my own satisfaction of being able to participate once again in the deliberations of this Chamber.

I hope that, as in the past, we can discus s things on a sound basis, on the basis of the issues before us, and with a minimum of friction as between pers onalities as such. It's always my feeling that the real value of this Chamber is the opportunity it enables for iss ues to grind against each other and for the democ ratic process to take the best of the wisdom of all of us to produce perhaps a wisd om which is greater than all of us . With regard to the Speech from the Throne, Mr. Speaker, I don't wish to make any general remarks .

I think that the general remarks themse lves have been very well made by the leaders of the parties who led off the debate insofar as the opposition is concerned. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would like to really deal with some specific issues that were raised in connection with the amendment tlnt was put by the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party. The first of these issues, Mr. Speaker, is one which this House spent a great deal of time on last year. It's one which never was satisfactorily resolved.

It's one which I feel will not be satisfactorily res olved until the government goes to the people again, which I hope will not be in the too distant future, and that is, Mr. Speaker, the iss ue of

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-2-6
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 2nd hansardpdf 6.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5a01e08b2ab36f4ec641c00aedc0f414a71e7400

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