May 19, 2004 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin O'Brien, MHA for

Gander, replaces Kathy Goudie, MHA for Humber Valley.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Gerry Reid, MHA for Twillingate & Fogo,

replaces Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Wallace Young, MHA for St. Barbe, replaces

Clyde Jackman, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Wiseman): Order, please!

(Inaudible) for the Department of Education. For members of the Committee,

you have just been handed the minutes of the meeting of the Department of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs, held this morning.

Can I have someone move that those minutes be accepted?

MR. O'BRIEN: So moved.

MR. YOUNG: Seconded.

CHAIR: Moved and seconded. Accepted as circulated.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I thank you for that.

Minister, I welcome you and your staff. Just to talk about some of the

process we go through, we have allowed three hours for this evening. I heard the

Member for Twillingate & Fogo talking about a record he had to break. I do

not know if that means he wants to get out early or if he wants to get out late.

What we have normally done is allocate about three hours, set aside about a

three-hour period. About halfway through, in an hour-and-a-half, we will take a

little break, a stand-up break for about ten minutes.

The process historically has been that we will provide you with an

opportunity, Minister, to make some introductory comments. As a part of that

process, I would ask you to introduce your staff. Then we open it up for some

questions and an exchange between the members of the Committee and yourself.

First, before we proceed, I would ask that the Committee members introduce

themselves. I will start with our colleague, whom I forgot earlier today, the

Member for Labrador West. You can be first tonight.

MR. COLLINS: Randy Collins, MHA for the District of Labrador West.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, MHA for the District of Twillingate & Fogo.

CHAIR: We can hear each other in the room just by talking, but for the

benefit of Hansard - I apologize for that, Kevin - on your base here there is a

place called talk. If you just hit that, the microphone, the little red light,

will come on here. In order to be recorded in Hansard, you need to do that. It

is for the benefit of Hansard that we need to have that depressed so they can

hear you.

MR. WISEMAN: Ross Wiseman, MHA for the District of Trinity North.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South.

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, MHA for the District of Gander.

MR. YOUNG: Wallace Young, MHA for the District of St. Barbe.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Minister, with those introductions of the Committee, I turn it over to you

and open the floor for your comments and introductions.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank the Committee. We

are pleased to be here this evening to discuss the Budget Estimates for this

coming year for the Department of Education.

Joining me this evening - I will just introduce our officials here this

evening. Of course, you know Tom Hedderson, the MHA for Harbour Main-Whitbourne

and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Department of Education. To my left is

Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister. To my right is Gerald Galway, ADM, Primary,

Elementary and Secondary. Rachelle Cochrane is our Assistant Deputy Minister for

Post-Secondary. Next to Bruce is Rick Hayward, Assistant Deputy Minister,

Corporate Services. Joining us as well is Lynn Salter, our Director of

Communications. I think we have everyone.

Obviously, they are here to assist me in providing any clarification you may

require as we go through our submission. I have indicated to them that they

should feel free to join in, in response to questions that are asked.

You will note that there are reductions from last year's Budget Estimates

in certain areas, and increases in others. The reductions are a direct result of

both a contracting education system and our government's commitment to

addressing our Province's deficit. In the past months we have looked very hard

at where we can streamline the system without compromising educational quality.

The result to date has been - and, of course, we are all familiar with this -

the merger of the Department of Education and the former Department of Youth

Services and Post-Secondary Education; some reductions to both the K to12 and

post-secondary budget lines; a two-year transition towards implementing the

recommended teacher allocation formula; and, a consolidation of K to12 school

boards in the Province from eleven to five.

While there have been some concerns expressed about board consolidation, most

people accept that reducing the number of school boards is a concrete step that

we can all take to help us reduce administrative costs while maintaining

educational programs and services. In fact, the Ministerial Panel report

considered recommending further school board consolidation back in 2000, and

stated at that time efforts to achieve efficiencies through future board

consolidation would seem achievable and necessary within the next several years.

It will come as no surprise to anyone here that the issue which is forcing us

to look at the structure of our K to 12 education system is our rapidly

declining student population. Since our Province underwent major education

reform in 1996 and 1997, enrolment has declined by 23 per cent, the number of

schools has declined by 29 per cent, the number of teachers has declined by 17

per cent, but the number of school districts, district administrators and

district program staff have remained constant or, in fact, increased. Clearly,

the time is right to address this issue.

It is important to note, however, that this reorganization is at the

governance and administrative level. It will result in fewer board members and

executive positions and a reduced administrative structure. It will not,

however, unduly affect the school level operations.

The merger of school boards will take effect this coming September 1. I am

therefore pleased to report that existing boards are working co-operatively with

our transitional committees towards making this transition seamless for students

in the classroom.

The reason we spend so much time, effort and money on the K to 12 education

system is that we have a commitment to prepare our young people to handle the

challenges of post-secondary education. Today's employers are looking for a

specific knowledge and skill sets. They demand their employees have more than a

high school diploma. We must therefore continue to encourage young people to

pursue post-secondary studies and we must remain committed, as a government and

as a society, to a vibrant, comprehensive, post-secondary system that delivers

high quality education.

We have a world-class university and a college system with campuses across

the Province. Our institutions, their faculty and graduates, have an excellent

reputation nationally and internationally. We have every right to be proud.

Government recognizes that knowledge is the fuel of the new economy and has

set a course to examine post-secondary concerns, affordability and accessability,

and to identify initiatives that will enhance the employment prospects of

graduates through the allocation of $250,000 for the commission of a White Paper

on post-secondary education. The White Paper will also examine whether our

university and public college are meeting their potential to attract investment

and generate economic development opportunities in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Meanwhile, although funding has been provided to renew infrastructure at both

Memorial University and the College of the North Atlantic, we have asked each

institution to identify measures to achieve efficiencies of $2 million this

fiscal year. The 2004 savings requested represent a very small share of their

operating budgets; Memorial approximately 1 per cent and the College of the

North Atlantic approximately 4 per cent.

Recent investment initiatives, such as major renovations to the College of

the North Atlantic to house the health programs at the Prince Philip Drive

campus, government's continued contribution to Memorial University's

Opportunity Fund and the continuation of the tuition freeze for public

post-secondary institutions are clear indications of our commitment to higher

education.

You are, no doubt, aware that 20 per cent of the provincial Budget is spent

on education, second only to health, which comprises 30 per cent. That is 50 per

cent of the Province's entire annual expenditures. We consider the high

percentage of taxpayers' money that goes to education as an investment that

will enable us to capitalize on the limitless opportunities our natural

resources and other assets provide. However, as with any investment, we must

spend wisely. Our education dollars must be spent in a way that will most

benefit our students and our Province and we have every intention of ensuring

that this will be achieved.

Mr. Chairman, with those few introductory comments, I welcome any questions

or commentary from Committee members and my officials are here to join with me

in helping with the responses.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

We will start with the Opposition critic for Education, the Member for

Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your introduction. I will try not to keep you

too long tonight but I have some comments that I would like to make first. You

are taking 475 teachers out this year and next year, is my understanding.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: As you know, 256 have been identified for this year and

the balance for next year will be - probably I should just share with you where

the 256 comes from. In terms of a reduced student enrollment this year, just

looking at that raw figure, we were looking at 147. As you may recall, I think

it was in 2001, the government of the day kept in 218 teachers in the system. So

it was decided this year to address that issue, but only one-half. So, the 147

plus the 109 - 109 representing one-half of the 218 who were kept in the system

a few years ago - gives us the total of 256, which is the amount for the

academic year 2004-2005.

It was announced in the Budget, and you are quite right, that there will be

further teaching positions which will be affected next year. The exact number we

do not know. What we do know is the one-half of the 218. So in order to

recapture the 218 that were left in the system two years ago, we do have that

figure of 109 that we do know, plus another number. At this stage it is

difficult to tell.

MR. REID: Why would it be difficult? We know what the projections are for

enrollment two years out, don't we?

OFFICIAL: We have some projections in terms of enrollments.

MR. REID: Because the day that we did the lockup for the Budget I asked

an official in the department of Treasury Board how many teachers were going in

the two years and he called your department or Treasury Board and the number

that he was given, and came back to me, was 475.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is difficult to say, with certainty, what the precise

number would be. Again, we know of the 109 but that clearly would be a decision

that would be made next year. From the Budget announcement this year, it

indicated that one-half of the 218 would be impacted this year, or 2004-2005,

and the other half next year. To be precise and to give an exact figure at this

stage would be premature in my view because the second part of that puzzle has

not been completed.

MR. REID: Personally, this is an opinion, I think you did the wrong thing

there. It is probably not your fault because I think you feel the same way, in

light of the questions that you asked me last year. We kept 218 in last year as

well. Is that right, John?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No. As I understand it, in 2003 there were 165 teachers,

or teaching positions, and the year prior to that the government of the day

removed 208 teaching positions. It was the year prior to that, that the 218

positions were kept in the system.

MR. REID: Okay, yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: But the last two years, prior to this year, there were

teachers removed or teaching positions removed, 165 and 208.

MR. REID: Anyway, you are taking out what remained in there over the next

two years.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. REID: I think that is a mistake and I argued for it last year. I was

successful in getting the Cabinet - of which I was a part - to leave those

teachers in there. I think you agreed last year that even with the numbers we

took out there were far too many. I think, like the boards, that we have reached

a point where we really need to review the formula we are using because of

declining enrollments, especially in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and with

somewhat of a difference in the St. John's area - even though you are losing

students in St. John's, they still have the capacity to deal with the loss far

easier than they do in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I think you would hear

more from the boards on the need to look at a different formula or another way

of providing teachers to schools if they were not so busy trying to keep their

jobs right now.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do not mind saying to you, we have met (inaudible) the

boards on a fairly regular basis. There are representatives of some of the

boards who make that same claim that you just made and support the idea of any

government looking at a change in the way the formula works and how it is

applied to teacher allocation.

MR. REID: Yes, I think we are going to have a declining enrollment in

rural, rural Newfoundland for the next ten or fifteen years. If we continue to

take teachers out, based on that formula, these children in those areas are

certainly not going to get the education - and they are not now - that they get

in large urban areas.

My argument when I was in the department was not that public but you have

courses being offered in St. John's that they could never even dream about in

rural Newfoundland. For example, there are schools in this city that are

offering German, Russian, Spanish and French,

whereas I think in your district,

Randy, they cannot even offer French, or they are talking about cutting our

French Immersion this year. I think it is an unjust system and is one that needs

to be looked at very carefully, because everyone outside of the Avalon, or at

least the Northeast Avalon from Holyrood West, is certainly going to be impacted

in the next few years, especially up your way, Wally, and down my way, and areas

like that.

There has to be a better way because, even though the distance education

program is a good one, it certainly does not replace a teacher in the classroom.

It is a good tool but it does not replace the teacher. Anyway, I hope that next

year you can convince your colleagues of the need for leaving those teachers in

there.

With regard to the school boards, I think you moved too fast, and I cannot

see the savings. You are saying you are going to reduce administrative positions

and you are doing it for efficiencies and stuff. Efficiencies, we all know, is

just another bureaucratic word for cutting the budget. I cannot see how you are

going to save the money, this year or next, in the school boards, because you

are cutting from ten to six, the major boards, and you are going to keep the

offices opened. That is my understanding; is that correct?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Do you want me to speak to that, just for a moment?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We are reducing the total number of boards, counting the

Francophone, putting that in the mix, from eleven to five. Of course, the

Labrador Board and the Francophone Board are not affected by this, so

essentially we are talking about the nine Island boards; however, when I say

that, I have to be mindful of the fact that the Great Northern Peninsula Board

includes a portion of the South Coast of Labrador. So we have nine boards that

are essentially becoming three.

We have identified the headquarters and we have regional educational centres

that will be open for each particular new district. Going west to east, the

Western Board headquarters will be in Gander but we will retain regional

education centres essentially in the locations where the school board offices

already exist. Therefore, with the headquarters in Corner Brook, we will have a

regional education centre in Stephenville and another one in Lower Cove on the

Great Northern Peninsula.

The Central Board headquarters has been identified as Gander, and the

regional education centre for that board will be in Grand Falls-Windsor. The

Eastern Board, which is a consolidation of four, the headquarters will be in St.

John's with regional education centres in Spaniard's Bay, Clarenville and

Burin. Obviously, the director and the assistant directors will be housed in the

headquarters, with a flexibility and an understanding that people are free to

move as they see fit, but their office, I guess, will be located in the

headquarters, with the exception of the Eastern Board. Because of the

distinction or the dichotomy in the rural-urban split, such an obvious one in

the Eastern Board, it was felt that we would include in the distribution the

role of an additional assistant director to be housed in Clarenville to deal

primarily with rural school issues.

Other regional educational centres that I have identified will maintain a

variety of functions and features throughout the Province; because the bottom

line is, and perhaps in some respects you are alluding to this, educational

service and the providing of educational service has to continue. Therefore,

although our directors and assistant directors will be in the headquarters, our

regional education centres will house an administrator or manager. There will be

some consultants. There will be some student support services. There will be

itinerant teachers, and there will obviously be the need for transportation

services and maintenance services, and that will continue in our regional

education centres; but, again, as I mentioned, the director, the executive

staff, will be work out of the headquarters.

Referring briefly to your point on savings, there will be significant savings

from the point of view of the direct reduction of executive positions and other

senior managerial positions in the school boards. I understand that, with the

consolidation that we have announced, we are looking at, I believe, some

thirty-three positions in total, and that, in and of itself, will realize in the

range of perhaps some $3 million in savings, just from those executive

positions, because the vast majority of these are senior executive positions.

From a salary point of view they vary, but they are easily one hundred, one

hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible) average.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Okay, an average of one hundred and five; so, one

hundred, one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty range.

MR. REID: Too much for them.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Pardon me?

MR. REID: Too much for them.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, that was a part of the thinking.

In addition to that, in terms of travel, travel time, cost of travel, we have

a significantly lower number of school board trustees, obviously, because we

only have five boards instead of eleven. That has travel implications and cost

savings and other efficiencies that we will be asking our boards to obviously

identify.

MR. REID: But on the elected school boards, you are not going to save a

lot of money on those, on the actual members travelling. I know if they are like

the board in my district, in the Gander district, they may meet once a month,

and all they get is their travel cost. They are not -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Gerry, there is travel, I agree, and they are coming

from all different parts of the Province, but the number is significantly

reduced. You take, under the act, we are allowed fifteen members per board, so

that is less than 165 members if we go with the eleven. Now we have five, so we

have ninety less. There are ninety less individuals doing any travel; but,

granted, those who are -

MR. REID: (Inaudible) travel are going to have to travel now, spend the

night and pay for hotel rooms.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Again, that very issue came up. It was only the last two

or three days we met with the - in fact, Tuesday night I met with the Western

Board in Corner Brook , or the transitional committee rather, in Corner Brook -

no, that was Monday night. Last night we met with the transitional committee for

the Eastern Board. These members talked about, for example, a flexibility within

that structure that will allow them to do different things in terms of travel.

We have regional education centres. There is no reason - for example, the

Eastern Board, although the headquarters might be in St. John's, their second

meeting might be in Clarenville, or their third meeting may be in Spaniard's

Bay. The Central Board - from a travel point of view - is a non-issue in terms

of where the two offices are, but I realize that the members have to travel

significant distances.

I guess what I am saying is: the travel is an issue, there is no question,

but with so many less individuals, and so many less individuals travelling, and

with the flexibility within the new transitional committees - who will become

school boards, actually, on September 1 - with that flexibility built in, I am

sure there are ways that can be found to economize and try to limit expenses.

Ultimately, obviously, that is a part of this exercise.

MR. REID: Why did you pick St. John's over Spaniard's Bay, when we

own the building in Spaniard's Bay? From what I can understand, it is quite a

palatial building.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, I have been there and it is quite a building. It

will be a regional education centre.

The St. John's office is leased. The lease expires, I believe, in 2007;

however, the board, or the transitional committee - again, to become the board -

may very well look at ways whereby the existing premises can be sublet. If there

are ways that they can back out of that lease, that will be explored.

Another factor that we took into account was this: There are many board-owned

properties within the St. John's area. In fact, one of them, Brinton Memorial,

is just down here by the Arts and Culture Centre and it is used now by the

Avalon East Board to conduct a variety of activities and provide some services

to students and teachers. That is the kind of thing that, once the lease

expires, or if the present property in Atlantic Place can be sublet, a property

such as Brinton - and, in fact, it might be Brinton - it is a board-owned

property, it is now vacant in the sense that it is not used as a school, and it

may very well be identified as a headquarters.

MR. REID: The reason I argue, besides the rent, you are keeping the

building open in Spaniard's Bay and if you were to close it, obviously the

return to government or to the board would not be as great if you were building

in Spaniard's Bay as if they were to take a school in St. John's and convert

it into an office, because the resale value on a piece of property here is far

greater. I think you should have looked at that; but, in terms of overall

savings, have you done any calculation on what it cost board members to travel

to board meetings in the various boards last year? I would assume the most

expensive one was Labrador. We are not going to save any money there because we

are not doing anything with the board; because, when they came to board meetings

in Goose Bay, they were flying in from all over Labrador - well, at least from

Labrador City and places like that - and I do not think the savings are there.

What are these new senior management positions that you have in the board,

that you did not have before?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In the regional educational centres?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It was felt, where the director and the assistant

directors would be in the headquarters, that it would be necessary to have a

senior education officer or manager, whatever the terminology ultimately may be,

to essentially act as a co-ordinator for that particular office. It is somebody

who will oversee the activities of that office and ensure that there is some

organization to the regional education centre and again to allow those

individuals - because, keep in mind, the regional education centres will be

prominent centres of education in these communities. I think it is important

that we remember that, because there will be consultants, there will be student

support services, there will be itinerant teachers, and there will be the

ongoing day-to-day maintenance and bus transportation issues that will arise. It

was felt that a person, whether we call him or her a manager or a senior

education officer or co-ordinator or whatever, not an executive position but a

managerial position for these offices - it was to help co-ordinate.

MR. REID: Did you look at reducing the number of employees at the board

before you said you were doing away with the boards? Because I think you could

have gotten your savings of your thirty-four individuals over eleven boards

easier than what you are doing.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Obviously, you know, it was -

MR. REID: You could have had eleven, for example, by reducing the number

of assistant directors by one in each of the eleven boards.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: As a department, we looked at a variety of options that

would be brought to government, to allow government to make a decision, but

because of the very weighed sort of (inaudible) of executive positions that

existed with our eleven boards, with their salaries, with their associated

expenses, and even in their cases travel costs and other administrative expenses

associated with their positions, it was felt that the greatest savings would be

as a result of an amalgamation and consolidation of boards, therefore

eliminating, as I say, thirty-three relatively senior and well-paid executive

positions throughout the Province.

MR. REID: John, I have one fear for all of this, in trying to close five

or six boards, is that you have left the regional offices open. I think, for

anyone who does not know, let me tell you how a school board operates. We told

these school boards they were allowed, back in 1997, one director, three

assistant directors, and six program co-ordinators. I bet if you went down to

the Avalon East School Board tonight and looked at the number of employees - how

many employees were there, Gerald, last year - actual professional teachers or

the like - in that board at the end of this year?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: At the Avalon East Board?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In terms of consultants and co-ordinators?

MR. REID: Yes, because they were allowed, what was it? One and three is

four, and six are nine. I happen to think or know that they created a new class

here in St. John's called associate assistant directors.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: They did.

MR. REID: Not in the legislation. They were not allowed to have them.

What they did with them is, they pulled them out of the classrooms. Because the

minister assigns teachers to a board, they took them out of the classrooms and

put them in the board office. Not only did they do that, but they took money

from operating funds to top up their salaries, which is criminal as far as I am

concerned. My fear is that they are going to do the same thing in these regional

boards.

Very soon, when whoever gets the job down here in St. John's looks at the

board that he has now compared to what he had last year, four times larger -

well, you have four boards put in one; it is not four times larger but it is at

least twice - and he is looking at half the staff that he had for one board, I

know exactly what he is going to do. What are you going to do to prevent that?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, one thing, there is going to be an accountability.

MR. REID: There had better be something more than accountability, John,

because they do listen. Believe me, I was there.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, this is a new regime. This is a new structure that

is being put in place, and there will be an accountability mechanism as part and

parcel of it, particularly when it is fundamentally the reason that we are doing

this. It is addressing ways to achieve savings - the government - but at the

same time recognizing a drastic reduction in our student enrollment.

We have made it clear, in discussions with our transitional committees, that

there will be a requirement that there be total and absolute accountability to

the new directors who are to be hired to become the directors of the new school

boards after September. We will, and it is certainly a part of our plan to issue

ministerial directives along those lines to ensure that the staffing model that

we propose is implemented and adhered to.

It is much easier, I think, Gerry, when introducing a new structure and when

beginning a new administrative regime, to set the rules to ensure that they are

adhered to. It is much more difficult - and, again, I think this is what you are

referring to - in an existing regime where the rules have not been followed and

where boards have, for whatever reason, felt that they had the freedom to do as

they pleased. It is much easier to change a system that is, but when we commence

a new structural regime we set the rules, we issue ministerial directives, we

impose upon the boards the absolute requirement of strict accountability. In

approaching that way, I feel that the issue that you are talking about can

hopefully be avoided.

MR. REID: If it is not, what you will see, instead of 475 teachers going

out of classrooms in the Province, you are going to have 675.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, and that is the fear.

MR. REID: It is not a fear; it is a reality, if you do not stop them.

John, I am serious. This is not a criticism; it is something that I certainly

felt strongly about, and I was only in the position for seven or eight months.

How many, Gerald, were in St. John's, on the Avalon East?

MR. GALWAY: In terms of -

MR. REID: Program co-ordinators, associate assistant directors,

directors, and everyone else.

MR. GALWAY: Mr. Reid, there were three assistant directors, there were

six program specialists; but, you are right, there are a number of other program

specialists that have been assigned out of the teaching allocation. That number

varies from year to year, but it is -

MR. REID: How many? Give us a rough estimate.

MR. GALWAY: Certainly in the range of twelve.

MR. REID: Additional ones?

MR. GALWAY: No, probably twelve to fifteen in total.

MR. REID: The associate assistant director is a class that is not even

recognized.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Not even identified or recognized in the act.

MR. REID: No.

MR. GALWAY: My understanding also is that there are approximately three

associate assistants in this particular board.

MR. REID: If you really wanted to save money, you could have done away

with all of that stuff, still left the boards in tact, and taking some control

over something that certainly was getting out of control. I am not blaming it on

you; you inherited it.

You are talking about a new system now, Minister, and that system was only

put in place in 1997. You are right, the boards - or, more importantly, the

director of the board - knew that he was responsible to an elected body which

was not government, and they set their own salaries for the most part.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You know, we are mindful of that. In fact, there was an

issue in Labrador that went very public recently.

MR. REID: Not just in Labrador. My understanding is, it is just not in

Labrador.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, on that very point, it was obviously a problem

that government has identified because the Auditor General is presently

conducting a fairly thorough audit and investigation on that issue -

MR. REID: So he should.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - on executive salaries.

MR. REID: We should have done it, because they were taking their

additional salaries from the classrooms of this Province, from the students,

because we were giving them the money either for operating capital, to keep the

heat and light on in the schools, or for salaries, which they chose not to do.

That is my fear, that when we get a board in Spaniard's Bay with half a dozen

people you are going to send out there, that in five or six years that might be

fifty, if left unchecked. It is a serious matter.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I think your point, again, is a valid one in the sense

that there is a requirement. If this is being done for the reasons that I have

outlined, if it is to be meaningful to the system in this Province, there has to

be an accountability and a supervision and a scrutiny to ensure that what is set

out here is followed and abided by; otherwise, we run into the very problem that

you have identified.

MR. REID: I will move off that one; we have beaten that one to death.

In school construction, how much money are you spending this year in school

construction? I think the minister mentioned, in the Budget, $22 million?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, $22.3 million or something, I believe.

MR. REID: How much did you cancel or defer?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Let's see. The full amount here, what we have - I will

just go on memory now in terms of the Budget Debate. Cancelled was a school in L'Anse-au-Loup,

in Southern Labrador; deferred was redevelopment of work at Herdman Collegiate

in Corner Brook, Mobile Central High School in Mobile on the Southern Shore -

MR. REID: Leary's Brook.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Leary's Brook in the north end of St. John's, and

also the Mealy Mountains Auditorium in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, which is not

limited to the Department of Education because it ties in an involvement with

the Department of Municipal Affairs and, I believe, the Department of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation. What is going ahead is, there has been allocated $1.5

million for the refurbishing of St. Bernard's school, and -

MR. REID: A top priority for the board.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: All other projects are deferred, with the exception of

the cancellation of L'Anse-au-Loup.

What is continuing are two projects: one in the Bay of Islands area, a school

that was started some months ago -

MR. REID: Meadows.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In Meadows, and also the provincial component of the

continuation and completion of the Francophone school here in St. John's.

MR. REID: Where is the $22 million? These are projects like New World

Island that have not been completed funded yet, are they?

OFFICIAL: Cash flow on projects that are not yet complete, that is

correct.

MR. REID: The school is complete but you have not paid for it.

OFFICIAL: Or construction that has already started and is underway. In

other words, schools that are not yet complete, or other projects that are not

yet complete.

MR. REID: Is the entire Francophone school on the hill included in that,

and we get the money back later? How much of that do we get back?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Is that 60-40 or 70-30, the Francophone? You are talking

about the new Francophone school?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. HAYWARD: I think the federal government are making a contribution of

around $3 million to a $5.5 million project, if my memory serves me right.

MR. REID: So it is not really $22 million out there in new school

construction.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, it is a combination of ongoing, completed, new, and

work to be completed.

MR. REID: That Meadows thing, that is under construction is it?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. REID: And Coaker Academy is finished on New World Island.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In fact, I am advised that classes should be open in

September, and I want an invitation to your district for the official opening.

MR. REID: I hope the Minister of Health accompanies me to Fogo Island for

the opening of half of our hospital as well.

I am sure you can get an invitation out of the board, John. I would love to

have you there, seriously, because it is a nice building and it is long overdue.

On the Leary's Brook school, maybe you should inform your Member for St.

John's North that it was not the previous government that cancelled or

postponed that; because he took a jab at me in the House late the other night

and criticized me for cancelling the Leary's Brook school. I think your

Minister of Finance did that - not me - your Minister of Finance.

CHAIR: Excuse me for a second, Gerry. If you are through the capital

piece - I will let you continue with your train of thought on the capital

funding - Randy indicated that he had some limited time, so I will just pass it

over to the Member for Labrador West and he can pick up questioning and we can

come back to you later, Gerry.

MR. REID: Yes, no problem.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you.

I do not have a lot of questions, Minister, but I would like to get your

thoughts on whether or not your government intends to expand on the private

schools that are operating in the Province.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Private schools? The trend is certainly the other

direction. There was a time in the Province when we had approximately 120

private schools and now our number is closer to thirty, so the trend is to

recognize that the private schools that we had in our jurisdiction are those

that, number one, are credible and they provide the choice and the option that a

certain number of our students wish to have.

We have certainly maintained the position in the department that, with the

proper monitoring and the proper supervision of what takes place in the private

school industry, it may very well be a legitimate entity from the point of view

of choice and selection that some students may require and may need at a certain

particular time.

To answer your question, we certainly do not plan to abolish the private

school system in any way, but it is fair to say that the numbers now appear to

be manageable in terms of institutions. There appears to be much more

accountability to the public at large, and we will continue our role in the

department to ensure that adequate monitoring takes place.

MR. COLLINS: Do you have any concerns about the fact that students who

are going to private colleges end up generally spending a tremendous amount of

more money than through the public system, and sometimes is not because they are

offered a choice. It is one of two things: either they cannot get into the

public college for what they want, or the public college is not offering the

courses that are being sponsored by the private colleges.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We do a fairly regular check on what courses are being

provided and what programs are being provided at the private college system. If

it is seen by government that there is a demand for a particular area, we may

very well take that into account in providing programming or course offering in

the public college system.

In terms of what a student spends, it seems to me that may be difficult,

Randy, to really get a full grasp on, and I will tell you why. There are many

students in the private college system who once were perhaps in the university

or in the public college system. What happens very often is, when that student

may graduate from a private college, yes, there is student debt and there is

student liability but it may not be solely a product of the fact that he or she

was in a private school. They may have been in a public institution for a year

or two, and sometimes it seems to me - I know in our analysis of this very issue

- that very fact seems to get overlooked sometimes. Yes, there is debt. There is

debt, whether it is public or private, but often a private college graduate -

or, for that matter, a private college dropout - may incur debt, but debt from

both systems.

MR. COLLINS: Going back to the one we spoke about earlier with the French

Immersion program under the Labrador School Board, where the percentage of

kindergarten students beginning kindergarten this year, 54 per cent have signed

up for French Immersion. Have you had any recent conversations with the school

board on that issue?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I am concerned about that issue. I have spoken with some

parents in Lab West, and the Canadian Parents for French.

MR. HEDDERSON: I have had some conversations with (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, you may want to speak to that after. Tom, met with

some parents just last Friday, wasn't it?

MR. HEDDERSON: Friday (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I know recently the school board met with some of the

parents as well. My impression is that there was a loosening of the position.

Now, that is not an indication to me that there is a change of position, but it

does not seem to be as firm and as definite as what Jeff Thompson, the director,

was saying publicly a month-and-a-half ago.

As you know - because you asked me the question in the House one time - we

have made an application to the Department of Canadian Heritage to seek some

funding, extra funding, for French services, French teaching, and French

instruction materials. We are still awaiting a response, but, if it is positive

at all, then certainly my first phone call will be to the Labrador School Board

to provide that assistance to them so that this issue may be addressed.

MR. COLLINS: That goes back to something that Gerry mentioned there a few

minutes ago, the priorities of spending money. In the Labrador School Board, we

have people making $149,000 a year, or $138,000 a year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The auditors were there about two months ago dealing

with that.

MR. COLLINS: The Auditor's report, do you have any idea when that will

be -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I believe the Auditor General's report is filed in

November of each year - late fall, I believe.

MR. COLLINS: We won't get anything on that until November?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It will be this fall, I would think, before the report

is filed.

MR. COLLINS: Have you had any discussions with the Labrador Board in

terms of the funding cuts by the mining companies, and the effect that may have

on them?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Not directly. That was announced last week. I certainly

paid attention to the media reports on it. I understand that the IOC grant was

reduced from $1 million to $300,000.

MR. COLLINS: Nine hundred thousand, three hundred.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: So, it is a $600,000 reduction.

My guess is - and this is only my own suspicion, perhaps, more than anything

- the reason it was cut was because it was uncertain to the company as to

exactly where the funds were being used and allocated. I guess IOC made a

corporate decision that it had to make in light of that uncertainty. What it

means, of course, is that when any school board receives in excess of

half-a-million dollars less than it was accustomed to receiving, it raises the

issues in terms of what the impact may be, but it is an issue.

MR. COLLINS: It is going to be a negative impact upon the education

system there because the top-up step that teachers receive may not be possible

to continue under the limited amount of funding that is going to be provided in

the future. As minister, you have not had any discussions with the -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I haven't, not on that issue.

MR. COLLINS: - mining companies?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, not since last week. I do not know, unless maybe my

officials have?

OFFICIAL: No, they haven't that I know of, minister.

MR. COLLINS: You were saying, it is time you had some meetings?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Do you want to speak on the French Immersion -

OFFICIAL: The Canadian Parents for French had a meeting in St. John's,

or a conference, and they were in. I was just having a conversation with them

about the situation and, I guess, it goes back to the parents of the board,

Randy. It seems to me that right now there does not seem to be a great

relationship between the two of them.

MR. COLLINS: Well, you have a board that is ruling with an iron fist that

does not display any flexibility on any issue.

OFFICIAL: No, and my advice to them was, again, to continue to lobby the

board. I think what they are looking for is a working relationship to deal with

this situation. As the minister has indicated, that heritage fund is there and

it has been applied for but everyone needs to come together on this as a

concerted effort. I think that is where they would like to go with it and,

hopefully, that is where it will go.

MR. COLLINS: But for French Immersion now in the Province, you receive 50

per cent funding from the federal government?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We receive funding from the federal government for

French services, that is right, and French instruction materials and related

costs.

MR. COLLINS: How much of that money would have went to the Labrador

School Board?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We probably have the exact figure there, do we, on that?

MR. GALWAY: I do not have the exact figure.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We can give you the figure of the allocated funding for

the board, but you want the breakdown for French?

MR. COLLINS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We do not have it. We can provide that.

MR. COLLINS: Okay.

The next issue, from my district perspective, is: Do you have any plans in

the near future of - I do not know how to put it - either building the college

in Labrador West, your own facility, or continue paying highway robbery prices

at the tune of $1.2 million a year to the existing facility?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You are talking about the Notre Dame Academy?

MR. COLLINS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Clearly, that is a situation that has to be addressed

and we are addressing it. In fact, my guess is - Gerry, when you were in the

department you perhaps addressed the situation as well.

There was a requirement to settle the issue of ownership and property

dispute, and that was conducted several years ago. That went to the Department

of Justice. That issue was settled, in terms of who has the property rights and

MR. COLLINS: The diocese of Schefferville.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Exactly.

The R.C. Episcopal Corporation, through the Schefferville Diocese, is the

determined property owner. They then went ahead and, on a monthly basis, started

charging the College of the North Atlantic - and has been doing so, I think,

since 1992, if I remember correctly - an exorbitant monthly rent. There were two

separate figures and there was a lease, I believe, that was signed originally,

whereby the college would pay $50,000 a month. Subsequent to that, I am not sure

if it was a written document or an understanding or whatever, but the rent was

increased to approximately $80,000 a month to the tune of approximately $1

million a year.

We have requested of the Department of Justice to give us a legal opinion to:

A, the validity of lease one; B, the validity of whatever the arrangement is

with regard to the $80,000 a month, whether it is a lease, an agreement, or a

memorandum of understanding. Because there is some confusion, as I understand

it, between lease A and agreement B, and we are awaiting an opinion from the

Department of Justice on that issue. Upon receipt of an opinion from the

Department of Justice and in consultation, obviously, with the Board of

Governors of the College of the North Atlantic, a decision has to be made.

MR. COLLINS: Is there a lease in place now, like a fixed duration?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It affects duration?

MR. COLLINS: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The original document was a lease and it referenced the

monthly rent of $50,000. Does the lease refer to duration? Are you aware of

that, Bruce?

MR. HOLLETT: No, I am not sure if it is an open-ended lease or if it is a

fixed duration.

MS COCHRANE : The second lease is due to expire around 2012, so our

question to Justice is: If the first lease holds, we can get out on a

month-to-month lease. If the second lease holds, we may be locked in for quite a

while.

MR. COLLINS: Oh, my God, 2012.

MS COCHRANE: (Inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: If Justice determines the second arrangement to be valid

and binding.

MR. COLLINS: Wow.

Okay, I think that is -

AN HON. MEMBER: That is enough of that.

CHAIR: Are you sure you do not want to end on a more positive note?

MR. COLLINS: I do not have the stomach for much more of this.

CHAIR: Thank you to the Member for Labrador West.

The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: Probably I will pass it over to Gerry again, because I am

going outside, so this will not cut in with our meeting. I have a few more

minutes to go, and, rather than interrupt the meeting (inaudible)

CHAIR: By all means, it is your call, whatever you want to do.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you coming back, then?

MR. BUTLER: I am coming back, yes.

MR. REID: I am not going to be too much longer.

MR. COLLINS: I will follow you out, in case I have to pick you up.

Thank you, everyone.

CHAIR: Thanks, Randy.

MR. REID: The last few years, government put $1 million into public

libraries, books in the Province. Is that in there this year as well?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, it is. I think our amount is relatively consistent

with last year.

MR. REID: Was it always included in the Budget like that? I thought we

made special (inaudible) after, a donation to them each year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is there on page 182, Gerry, Public Libraries And

Information Services. In fact, the amount is almost identical; in fact, it is

slightly higher than the Revised figure from last year. It is essentially

equivalent to last year.

MR. REID: Before I just ask you a few things about the Estimates

themselves, do you think that we could have a list of all the employees with the

department, as well as any boards that you control, the number of employees that

you have now? I think they are probably -

AN HON. MEMBER: They are all listed there.

MR. REID: They are listed in -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Salary Details.

MR. REID: Salary Details.

How many of these are going? How many are not filled? How many will you be

filling? Things like that.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Sure.

MR. REID: I think the other ministers that the Chair of this Committee

has asked, they told him that it would be provided to them by the end of the

month, I think.

AN HON. MEMBER: Before the (inaudible).

MR. REID: Yes. Is that possible?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I would not think that would be a problem. It is a list

of positions: positions that are filled, and positions that are vacant.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: He wants me to keep you going for at least five more minutes.

Let's go back to page 172 and we will go down through some of the headings.

I will not do what I did the other night, because I do not need to. I know what

a lot of these are.

Under subhead 2.1.01.05. Professional Services, $275,000 up from $30,000 last

year, what Professional Services would you be purchasing for that?

MR. HOLLETT: That is $250,000 additional for the White Paper on

Post-Secondary Education.

MR. REID: On page 173, Administrative Support, Information Technology,

$30,000, it is new; it was not there last year.

MR. HAYWARD: That is really a reallocation of our Information Technology

budget to deal with the tangible capital assets that the Minister of Finance has

been dealing with, our move from the cash accounting to accrual accounting.

MR. REID: Okay, (inaudible) economics.

On page 174, Grants and Subsidies, under the Community Access Program, we

have dropped $100,000 in that. It has gone down, the Grants and Subsidies

portion, by $100,000, subhead 2.2.01.10.

MR. OTTENHEIMER : It went from $1,156,000 to $1,055,000.

MR. HAYWARD: That is a cost-shared program, as you are aware. We are

budgeting in 2004-2005 for a cost-shared program, and that just reflects the

different cash flows that the federal government are participating with us.

MR. REID: Under the School Board Operations, subhead 3.1.02, page 175,

that $141 million is for the operation, for the most part, of the schools around

the Province, is it?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You mean under the total?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. REID: Under that, Minister, if you do not mind a suggestion .

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Please, go ahead.

MR. REID: I had the opportunity to visit a number of schools in the few

months that I was minister and I have to say, outside of the one that we were

replacing in Burgeo with a brand new school, a beautiful school, state of the

art, outside of that old one that I went into that was still in operation - I

guess the new one will be open in the fall, will it?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The new one is open.

MR. REID: The new one is open? Outside of that school, I think the worst

school that I went into was the one on the hill here, Bishops, is it? Not

Bishops, but Prince of Wales. Not Prince of Wales, Bishops College.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Do you mean Bishops or Booth?

MR. REID: No, Booth. No, Bishops. That is atrocious.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There are problems with windows.

MR. REID: Well, you could put your hand out around the windows and knock

on them from the outside from inside.

What I suggested to Brian Shortall, just in passing one day, maybe an idea -

because the three of the schools on the hill are the same age and they are all

in similar states of disrepair - why not go for one school?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You mean for that area there?

MR. REID: Yes, a super school. They have done it in other provinces. I

think you might save enough money over twenty years by closing the three of them

to pay for it.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: As you probably remember, the Avalon East Board, before

the St. Mary's issue, went as public as it did. A part of its closeout plan

was to close out Booth Memorial, which is the school right next to Bishops.

After one or two public meetings, and further meetings with the board, that

particular decision was reversed. So the board at least did contemplate this

year doing in part what you are suggesting.

MR. REID: Yes, because I cannot see replacing three schools, or even two

new ones up there, but you are going to need it. I think that to continue to put

large sums of money - and they are not getting that now and have not been - into

those two schools upon the hill is a waste of money. They are fifty years old. I

think three of them are roughly the same age, aren't they?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: They were built in the 1950s, yes.

MR. REID: I am not so familiar with Holy Heart, but I understand that is

not in great shape either.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It was built in 1959, I believe, 1957.

MR. REID: You would only be talking a couple of thousand students, I

think. When it was probably in its peak, some of those schools down there

probably had that many (inaudible).

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I taught at Holy Heart, actually. I taught there in my

first year of teaching in 1974 and there were 1,500 students at Holy Heart. Now

the student population at that school - and it is still probably the largest

high school in the Province, that or Ascension; Ascension is fairly large as

well - is about 900?

OFFICIAL: Almost 1,000.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Almost 1,000, so it is between 900 and 1,000. So, what

was a population for a large high school in St. John's twenty-seven or

twenty-eight years ago is now equivalent to a population of two of our schools.

MR. REID: I think you are always going to have a need for a school in

that area, it is in the centre of the city, and I think it would be a good idea

to build one. I know you would get some flak from parents, because I think maybe

the school is too large, but I think it would probably solve a number of

problems.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: My sense is that one of those schools, not necessarily

next year or the year after but in due course -

MR. REID: Will close.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: For two reasons; again, the drastically declining

enrollment and the condition of the school resulting from that.

MR. REID: Anyway, it is something to look at. I think you could sell it

to pretty well anyone in the Province, the need for the building of that.

Under Special Measures, on page 176, 3.1.06, Appropriates for French First

Language, you have gone from $750,000 to $2.5 million, in terms of Grants and

Subsidies. What does that deal with? That is not construction of the school, is

it?

MR. GALWAY: That relates, Mr. Reid, to an anticipated increase in the

official languages agreement in response to the Stephan Dion plan, where they

are making substantial investments, I think $137 million across the country, to

increase second language education and bilingual fluency among school graduates.

We are anticipating receiving that amount in an additional grant.

MR. REID: None of that can go into Lab West where they are having a

problem, can it?

MR. GALWAY: We have actually identified seven or eight areas which will

require approval from the federal government. One of the areas we have

identified is financial assistance to school districts to hire teachers for

rural schools, but we, again, do not have the approval of that. If we were to

get the approval, then we would have to engage with the school boards to look at

how those units might be deployed.

MR. REID: Thank you.

On page 178, 3.2.01, Salaries has dropped by $150,000 over last year. Who got

axed?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is what it is, the elimination of a consultant

position.

MR. REID: Who was that, or is it more than one?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Do you mean the name of the person?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. GALWAY: It was actually only one position, although it reflects two

there. There was only one position being eliminated and I guess there will be

some reallocation of funding within the department. That was the art consultant,

with the art and music being put together.

MR. REID: And the same with Student Support Services, it looks like there

is a job or two gone there on 3.3.01.

MR. GALWAY: That actually reflects three autism consultants that are

being - the source of the funding for those consultants is being transferred to

Teaching Services. The reason for that is that these consultants are spending 80

per cent to 90 per cent of their time on the road working in classrooms actually

with teachers and students. So, it was appropriate to charge those units off to

Teaching Services.

MR. REID: Under School for the Deaf, how many teachers did you take out

of there this year?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: This year, under the School for the Deaf, I believe

there were three. Only one actual displacement but three teaching positions. The

actual numbers - in fact, I have the exact numbers right here of the reduction.

Here it is.

MR. REID: What is it, eleven (inaudible) or something?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I will just give you a little bit of background here. I

will not be long. Last year, enrollment at the School for the Deaf was seventy,

with twenty-five students in residence. This year, fifty-two students, with

nineteen in residence. The projection for this coming September is forty-six

students, with sixteen students in residence. Again, a significant drop in just

a two-year period.

To answer your question, there are three teaching positions that were

impacted.

MR. REID: What about the Whitbourne facility out there, does that come

under that budget? Did you lose any units out there?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, there was a unit. Again, as you know, the facility

itself comes under the Department of Justice. There is a full unit that has been

shut down, and has been shut down for awhile. In terms of actual teaching

numbers, again, the number was three?

MR. GALWAY: The positions went from eleven to seven, which is a reduction

of four, but the Whitbourne school has a reserve of one unit should the

enrollment increase. The enrollment dropped from fifty-two - the students in

that facility - down to twenty-eight. So, it was a fairly significant reduction.

Should the enrollment increase in September, there is another unit in reserve

that the Whitbourne centre can have access to should it be required.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Youth incarceration is something that has significantly

changed under new federal legislation dealing with youth criminal justice.

Sentencing options have changed significantly and closed custody, which would

have been the option obviously for the Whitbourne facility, is used sparingly;

whereas five years ago it was quite common. That is why we see a significant

number of actual young offenders in Whitbourne, because judges are not giving

sentences with respect to closed-custody warrants. Therefore, that again impacts

everything, as can be seen from the number that Gerald just gave.

MR. REID: It is quite the facility; a beautiful facility.

Under Centre for Distance Learning, it looks like you dropped some money

there, a small amount. Do you have any idea how many additional children will be

taught this year through Distance over last year?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Actually, we have increased the budget for CDLI. It has

gone up by, between $400,000 and $500,000.

MR. REID: That is something that is going to have to continue as you cut

teachers.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, of course, the thing is, it is a service, an

option and a providing of service to students; particularly in more remote

communities and in schools with very small high school populations.

We have 23.5 teaching units this year and we offer, I believe, this year some

twenty-five courses through CDLI. This year there are some 900 students in the

Province who avail of E-Learning through CDLI. We are anticipating, because of

the investment that we are making as a government this year, an extra three to

five teaching units next year, which will impact perhaps as many as another

couple of hundred students. So, it is conceivable next year we will have in

excess of 1,000 students doing maybe twenty-six, twenty-seven, twenty-eight

courses through CDLI.

The reality is, I guess, that if - I remember an example you gave me last

year actually, in your own district. The reality is that if a student is in Main

Brook or a high school student is in Lawn or a high school student is in Change

Islands, to use your example, and there are only two or three who are interested

in doing an advanced chemistry course or an advanced course in conversational

French, they should be provided that opportunity. It may be difficult to attract

a teacher in that situation, and from a fiscal point of view it may be even more

difficult perhaps, but at least there is an option that is being provided to

allow a smaller number of students to take advantage of a greater variety of

courses.

What is interesting about that - I was looking at some documentation on it

this morning - the performance outcomes, once the evaluation has been completed,

is almost identical to the normal, traditional teacher-student relationship in

the classroom. Now, that is not to say that it should ever replace that, and you

have made that statement often and I agree with you. It should never replace the

traditional classroom setting, but there is no reason why it cannot enhance

opportunities for young people in this Province who find themselves in very

small population settings but yet deserve an opportunity to take chemistry or to

take advanced math or to take science or conversational French the same as that

high school student does in that rickety old school here at Bishops or Booth. Do

you know what I mean? So, it is a bit of a balancing act but it is an investment

that I think is well worth the money.

MR. REID: Don't you think that some distance education, even though it

would not be distance, should be done in some of the high schools in St. John's,

whereby you could offer some advanced courses where you have large student

populations? Obviously, you have some kids who are extremely bright. Why not

stick them on distance education, free up a teacher? In so doing, you still

would have skilled teachers in the school that the students could go to.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Actually, some do. There are urban settings in this

Province where students, for example in Gander, which I think we would consider,

certainly by Newfoundland and Labrador standards, a large community, but there

are students at the high school in Gander who are engaged in E-Learning.

MR. REID: Yes, but here where they offer the courses, as I said earlier,

couldn't we do some of those through Distance Ed? At least they would have a

resource teacher in the school who is not teaching them full time but teaching

somebody else. At least they could converse with him or her from time to time

during the day if they were doing it through E-Learning rather than taking a

teacher from that particular class.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is happening. We have some examples at the lower

grades, in Elementary and in Junior High, where there is a setup whereby

students in smaller communities interact with students in larger centres. Again,

we have to remember what CDLI is. It is a response to a diminishing number of

students in schools where populations are low. That fact or that reality may not

exist in Carbonear or it may not exist in St. John's or it may not exist in

Stephenville, where if you offer a chemistry class there may well be twenty-two

students,

whereas in another community, on the Northern Peninsula, there may

only be three students n Level III who opt for chemistry and who may want to

take advantage of an opportunity if it were there. I think it is that reality

and it is that context in which CDLI has to be assessed. It is not to take away

from the validity of the fact that there may be E-Learning experiences that

students in larger centres may take advantage of, and sharing that with other

students in the schools.

MR. REID: Yes, and that way you could free up a teacher. Probably at Holy

Heart we have three chemistry classes going on at the same time,

whereas if you

had one doing it through E-Learning at least you would have two other teachers

who could help these kids at times, and free up a teacher to send up to Witless

Bay or somewhere. Under the formula that we have for allocating teachers you

would never be allowed to do that. Anyway, it is something to think about.

I am not going to get into this post-secondary stuff. We already gutted that,

sure. There is nothing left to talk about.

I had an interesting experience on Monday or Tuesday. I went to an appeal for

a student who had gone to a private college, like Randy said, and couldn't get

a job. In fact, of the twenty graduates who had gone there, she only knew of one

person who was working. Because she had run up a debt of $30,000, student aid

didn't want to give here a student loan. We went to the appeal and written

right in there in the appeal were the reasons she was denied. One was because of

the debt load that she had, and because she wanted to do Education, one of the

reasons they were giving was that the job prospects in the Province were not

very good, which was somewhat ironic, coming out of the Minister of Education's

Department, when they were telling her, basically, that they were not going to

fund her a student loan because prospects for that particular field were not

great.

I suggested that they might be getting you in trouble, John, so you should

get them to change that.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is worrisome.

MR. REID: Yes, but there are prospects elsewhere.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Also, there are prospects here. When we had that student

fair last week, the information that is coming back to us is that there are

literally hundreds of teachers who are being sought after this year. All we have

to do is look at the newspapers and the classified ads. There are hundreds of

positions that are being advertised.

MR. REID: There are two problems there, though. One, it is in fields that

we cannot get teachers for, and the other one is, it is in areas where a lot of

people do not want to go.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: My sense is, we are anticipating this year perhaps as

many as a couple of hundred teachers, recent graduates from Memorial, from the

Faculty of Education, who will be in the classrooms in this Province come

September.

MR. REID: Yes, but there will be others who will not be.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, we have 400 teachers retiring.

MR. REID: As well, there will be teachers who will actually lose their

job this year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There may be some; but, Gerry, I do not think it is

going to be a significant number, because when you look at the fact that 400

teachers are coming out of the system through retirement, and when you consider

the numbers that are being sought through classified advertising and the teacher's

fair, and just the direct information we are getting from school boards and the

directors, my sense is that the numbers of teachers who will not be able to find

work, who are seeking work in September, will not be as high as (inaudible).

MR. REID: Yes, but you are laying off 255. There are 400 retiring, so

that is 150 positions.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We are not laying off. There are 256 positions less, and

there are 400 teachers who are retiring, right?

MR. REID: So there are 150 vacancies, we would say, but they do not

always match up in areas, and they do not always match up in the course of

study, and that says nothing for - how many are graduating from MUN in this

convocation, a couple of hundred?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Probably a couple of hundred, 220 maybe, but that is not

unusual. That happens each and every year. It is not a perfect match every year,

that x number of teachers retire and the precise number to replace that number

is found in September. My comment, though, in response to the point, is that in

view of the reduction of teaching positions, which this year is higher than last

year and slightly higher than the year before, the impact on the number of new

entrants and the impact on the loss of jobs - it is our analysis - would be

minimal. There will be some; I am not saying there will be none. There will be

some, but that happens on an annual basis.

MR. REID: There will be at least 150.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Pardon?

MR. REID: There will be at least 150. What I am saying is, there are 150

positions out there in the Province today, that is if 400 retire and -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Just using those figures.

MR. REID: Yes. It cannot be any more, unless some of them quit.

Do something with sick leave on that particular issue, and I am not talking

about going out and forcing it down the union's throat, like you did with the

public service. Do something like -

OFFICIAL: An incentive.

MR. REID: Yes, exactly. Do an incentive for when they leave, but also do

it such that after a prescribed number of days somebody goes to see a doctor,

and not one of their choice. I happen to know an individual who was off all year

from teaching, from stress. His sick leave runs out two weeks before the end of

the school year, and he is going back.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: For the last two weeks?

MR. REID: Yes. The courses are finished. The last week there are no

exams, so he is going back to sit in the office while the kids are writing exams

for one week, and it is a pensionable year.

There are ways, and we were looking at one - they are doing it in other

businesses - where you go to a doctor. There was someone interested, actually,

in looking at that in the department as a pilot last year.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is an issue.

CHAIR: Thank you to the member.

The hon. the Member for Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: I would like to thank my hon. colleague, because I thought I

had a plan in place here. I asked him to take five minutes and he took

twenty-five, so anything could happen here at any minute. I apologize for that.

Just under some of the headings, Minister, under 3.1.01., before I get to the

few general questions I have here, Grants and Subsidies for teachers' salaries

is up by $13 million over last year's expenditure of $340 million. I was

wondering, how does this fit into the picture where there is elimination of

teachers, or cuts, or whatever you want to call them? I was wondering if you

could explain that, Sir.

MR. HOLLETT: The difference there is, there was an extra payday for

teachers in this fiscal year. While there was some reduction in salaries for

teachers because of the lower number of teachers, there was also an extra

payday.

MR. REID: What is the cost? Twenty-two million?

OFFICIAL: Thirteen one eight four.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading, Sir, 3.1.01., it says here the

Newfoundland School for the Deaf is down by $416,000 from last year's Budget.

I was wondering, is that due to declining enrolment or have services been cut

there along with that?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, there has been some reduction of service due to

declining enrolment. There were four support staff who were impacted, again due

to the enrolment, but keep in mind that there are forty-one full-time positions

at that school for the number of students that we referred to earlier, but there

is a reduction.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Under the same heading, Substitute Teachers is up by $1.5 million over last

year's Budget. I am wondering, where does this increase come from at this

point in time?

MR. HOLLETT: This year or last year?

MR. BUTLER: What it says here under 3.1.01., Substitute Teachers is up by

$1.5 million. I was wondering, has this been at the expense of permanent

teachers, the ones who are coming out of the system?

MR. HOLLETT: That was higher usage of the non-discretionary days, so sick

leave, basically, higher sick leave usage.

MR. BUTLER: The $1.5 million.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.02., School Board Operations, Transportation of

School Children has increased by $909,000. I am wondering, is this due to school

closures where they have to travel greater distances or...?

MR. HOLLETT: No, that is an increase in cost in contract busing. There

were some new contracts negotiated last year and the costs were up.

MR. REID: Can I ask a question on that?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, indeed you can.

MR. REID: There was some dispute over that last year and we were

threatening to go to court. Did we ever do that?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Over bidding in the St. John's area, Avalon East?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: You are right, there was some dispute in terms of the

bidding practice.

MR. REID: They rigged the books.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There was a concern there. We have discussed that issue

and -

MR. REID: Can I ask a question? Am I protected by the House here?

AN HON. MEMBER: You're on your own tonight.

MR. HOLLETT: We are seeking some advice on that particular issue, on what

some of the options on that one might be.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: We have directly asked the Department of Justice to get

involved and give us an opinion on that.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading, Minister, federal revenue is down by

a little over $1 million. Could you explain why that is, or why is this cut

expected? It shows there the Revised for last year was $2.449 million.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, I think that was just some late receipt of federal

revenue in 2003-2004.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

A lot of those I had to cover, someone else has asked questions on them.

Under 4.2.01. Memorial University, I was just wondering, where does - I remember

in the Budget, I think, Memorial was asked to cut back, I think, around $2

million or come up with $2 million, whatever terminology you want to use. I was

wondering how that is factored here in that particular page, on 185? Because, I

think it says here that the funding is up by $2 million, so I was wondering if

this had been reversed or what.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, it has not been reversed but there is an explanation

for the answer.

MR. HOLLETT: The total Grants and Subsidies for Memorial University is a

combination of an awful lot of things that we had to fund, including annualizing

salary increases, et cetera, pension costs, other benefits costs; so, while

there is a total increase, it should have been $2 million higher if not for the

$2 million that they were asked to save. That is, in essence, the answer.

MR. BUTLER: The next one, Minister, is subhead 4.4.03. Newfoundland and

Labrador Student Loans Program. I took notice that under 2003-2004, under the

Revised and the Budget, it was listed under Allowances and Assistance, and under

2004-2005 it is listed under Grants and Subsidies. I was wondering, is that just

a misprint, it was dropped from one line to the other, or is there a reason for

it?

MR. HAYWARD: That was basically a change in accounting policy dictated by

the Comptroller General because of the way we are funding the Student Aid

Program now versus in the past. You are aware of that issue.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Under the same heading, Revenue - Provincial, I notice there is nothing

listed but there was $360,000. Probably that is tied into the same reasoning, is

it?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HAYWARD: All revenues now are going to go into the corporation.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I think it was in the Budget with regard to $2 million that was to come

forward, or it was noted some time ago anyway, for new school buses, the school

bus fleet or what have you. I do not know if that was in the Budget now or in

your book previous to. I am wondering, if that is a fact, where would that be

listed in the headings here? Under what division is this being spent?

MR. HOLLETT: It is back under School Board Operations, subhead 3.1.02.,

Transportation of School Children. That is where school busing appears.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, it would be under there.

The next question, Minister, with regard to the school busing issue, how is

that being done? Will that go out on tender through the department? Is there

anyone on the outside of the department who is looking into this issue to size

up the school bus fleets around the Province?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There is a dedicated person at the department dealing

with student transportation issues, and deals directly with school boards. As

you are probably aware, some of our fleets are board owned, others are done

directly, but we do have a dedicated person to assess that and work with school

boards closely.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, but there is no one on the outside of your school board

in the department who would be looking into this issue on the outside through a

contractor or anything like that?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Some of the school boards have their own dedicated

personnel dealing with this as well. I know what you are saying, but no, just

the relationship between the department and school board personnel would be -

MR. BUTLER: Nobody outside of that.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

One of the questions I had here was the additional funding. I guess probably

you answered that just now, when I found out what funding was there. I was

wondering if the federal government - if the funding had been secured for the

Canada Student Loans. I guess that has been answered because you noted it over

here.

Just a quick question. What impact is the escalating insurance cost having on

schools and school property, and how is government handling this? Is there a

major increase or concern that way?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: One factor, and it is a significant factor, is the whole

potential cost of remediation of property because of buried oil tanks and that

sort of thing. That, of course, impacts on insurance policies and cost directly

to school boards and I guess indirectly to government.

It is an issue, and it is one that has escalated significantly in the past

number of years, and it is one that may well increase over the next few years as

schools close and as environmental regulations are brought to bear on what a

particular school or school board or government should or should not do as it

relates to these underground tanks. So it is an issue tied in with insurance

costs.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Public exams, will they be administered this year? I took notice there is a

lower funding for Student Testing and Evaluation. Will that have any impact on

it, if that should be proceeding?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, the public examination

schedule is set. Everything

is finalized. The timetables are set, exams are completed, and things are ready

to go.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the school board offices like in Spaniard's

Bay, for instance, and I can be corrected on this, my understanding was that all

staff who were there were laid off, I suppose, or - we heard the terminology -

they had their pink slips.

AN HON. MEMBER: They were.

MR. BUTLER: They were. So the positions that will be going back in those

particular offices around the Province, how will they be hired? Will it be

through the Public Service Commission? Will the general public, as well as

others, be applying for those position and so on?

MR. HOLLETT: The school board director and assistant director positions

are being advertised and recruited through the Public Service Commission. All of

the other positions in the school boards will be done by the new boards

themselves, by the new board of directors, but I think it is not true that most

of the staff in the school boards have been laid off. In fact, it is quite the

contrary. They have not been given pink slips. I know that rumour is out there,

but that is a rumour; it is not true.

MR. BUTLER: So they are not laid off; is that what you are saying?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The school board staff are not. Some may very well be

impacted, depending on the specific role of each individual regional education

centre; however, as of now, there have been no layoffs. I think some program co-ordinators

have been given notification and, in fact, some have been reassigned back to

schools for September and will be resuming their classroom teaching position,

almost getting back to your earlier point about excess numbers of program

consultants and co-ordinators at school board offices.

In terms of the staff, there may be. I am not aware, other than the co-ordinators

who have been impacted. Again - and I think this is an important point - it is

important to remember what the regional education centre is. Just because it is

not a headquarters, and just because the director and assistant directors are

not there, that does not mean they will not be busy and active centres of

education in these communities that will require a staff to carry out certain

functions.

MR. BUTLER: I guess where I was coming from, I know two or three top

positions there, more or less, that are going to be gone.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: They are going to be gone, no doubt about that.

MR. BUTLER: They are going to be gone, but all the other people who were

working there - I am not saying all because, like you said, some of them are

allocated back to the schools or whatever. The rest of the people, they are

there? They do not have to apply for the positions they are in now?

MR. HOLLETT: Some of the support staff positions in the new school boards

will not be necessary, but it is going to be up to the school boards to

determine what positions they will, on a go-forward basis, no longer require.

AN HON. MEMBER: They have bumping rights, too.

MR. HOLLETT: Certainly in a unionized position some of them would indeed

have bumping rights. The only ones who have actually received any notification

to date, that we are aware of, are those, as the minister mentioned, program

specialists who, under the NLTA collective agreement, have to be assigned for

September by May 7, so they were reassigned back to the school system before May

7 for September 1, but some of those may well end up being back in the board

offices as program co-ordinators in the new boards offices come September.

MR. REID: Did you say the directors were going to be selected by the

Public Service Commission?

MR. HOLLETT: The recruitment process is being run by the Public Service

Commission. In other words, the Public Service Commission is advertising, is

accepting the applications, is doing the screening, and is setting up the

interviews, the sort of Public Service Commission role that they normally

conduct.

MR. REID: But the minister picks them? Who will pick the director for the

Avalon -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: There is a selection committee. Right now the selection

committee involves the Public Service Commission, it involves the Deputy

Minister of Education, it involves the chair of the transitional school board,

and we have also invited the Dean of Education at the Faculty of Education, Dr.

Alice Collins, to sit in on the selection committee. It is a combination of

those four or five individuals.

MR. BUTLER: Which positions did you say they are going to be selecting?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The directors of education of the newly formed school

boards or transitional -

MR. REID: Then the new school board and the director will pick the rest

of the staff?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: The director will, obviously, under his leadership, be

responsible. Granted he or she may assign that responsibility to an assistant

director of human resources, for example, but ultimately would be responsible

for the other positions within the board office.

MR. REID: But there wouldn't be an assistant director of human

resources, someone would have to hire that individual.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, the director would be involved in that process.

MR. REID: With the same group?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. There would be a support group for that particular

person, perhaps involving the senior executive of the department as well.

MR. BUTLER: That would be for the individual who would be, more or less,

the chief cook and bottle washer at the office in Spaniard's Bay or

Clarenville or wherever?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right.

MR. BUTLER: That is how they would be selected.

MR. REID: I don't think they wash many bottles.

MR. BUTLER: I think that is all. Are you finished on that one as well?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: The only other one I have is with regard to the

teacher-student ratio. I am just wondering if you can confirm or deny it for me.

I have been advised that this year coming and next year, over a two-year period,

Ascension Collegiate and Amalgamated Academy will be down by five teaching

units. I have also been advised that at Ascension Collegiate they cannot see the

size of the class going much lower than anywhere from forty to forty-five to

fifty students. Is that correct?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I cannot speak to the numbers of teachers because what

happens is, each board is generally aware of the numbers of teachers, or

teaching positions, that it will be reduced by in September. Then, the existing

school board directors, in consultation with the principals and the

administration of each school - there will be a decision made as to what the

exact numbers of teachers will be for a particular school. In fact, we have the

number for Avalon West which, of course, is where Ascension is, and the total

number is - in 1999, or is it 2000? - okay, that is the average class size. Do

we have the exact number for Avalon West? I had that here earlier.

MR. GALWAY: The pupil-teacher ratio?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: No, the exact number of teachers that the board loses. I

have that here as well. Maybe forty, if I remember correctly. Here we go: Avalon

West, thirty-six. The number of teachers in the Avalon West School District was

reduced by thirty-six teachers. It is then the director, in consultation with

the principal, who will determine how that will impact each individual school

within the Avalon West District.

The average class size, according to the information that Gerald just passed

to me, is approximately between twenty-one, twenty-two and twenty-three

students, in that range. The number that you gave me, forty-five students -

MR. BUTLER: Forty to forty-five.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: For the average class size at Ascension Collegiate next

year?

MR. BUTLER: No, over two years, when the five full units -

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Roland, I can say to you, that would astound me.

MR. BUTLER: You are telling me now that all of the classes at Ascension

now are around twenty-one or twenty-two?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. BUTLER: That is what I was just quoted.

OFFICIAL: What it is, and Gerry alluded to it, and I brought up the

same thing last year, the fact is that there some classes in that building that

are offering AP to probably fifteen or twenty students. That is what is perhaps

driving up the (inaudible).

MR. REID: Plus, you might have a principal (inaudible).

OFFICIAL: On the other hand, too, basically, to go back to the formula

that Gerry was talking about earlier, that the small and medium size did well in

the last round, it was the larger schools - Amalgamated, I know personally, I

think they lost three units as a result of that new formula coming in. That has

followed them through right to this day. (Inaudible) still talks about it.

MR. BUTLER: That is the other concern I have. I live in Shearstown, and

the Shearstown school was closed. Everybody fought to save their school, and

everybody will do that around this Province as long as there are going to be

school closures. Those people moved out to Bay Roberts, which is only about six

or seven minutes run on a bus. The level of education and what they have been

offered there as compared to just that short distance away is unbelievable, but

I have grave concerns, and a lot of people have grave concerns, that when five

teachers come out of that system over the next two years, if that is what is

what coming out, because I think Tom mentioned three or whatever, they cannot

get the same programming, the same education - probably the same education when

it comes to passing Grades 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10, yes, but something has to fall by

the wayside.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: They are difficult decisions that many schools are

forced to make in terms of what programming and what options will be offered to

students at a Level I, Level II and Level III area, and these are decisions that

school administrators have to make in terms of the numbers of teachers and the

programs that have to be offered in terms of the number of students who are

available in that school.

Keep in mind, though, that there may well be a class, and a student may be in

a class with thirty-two or thirty-three or thirty-four, but that very next

period, because of the course selection that student has opted for, it may be a

class of sixteen or eighteen.

This is not a consistent pattern of large class size for each individual

student. It does vary, but these are choices that are made and school

administrators have to grapple with that.

MR. BUTLER: But a lot of the programming they have now, I cannot see how

they can hang on to one. All those other schools, like when Shearstown school

closed down - and it was for a reason - a lot of those schools out there, they

said: Look, it is better to be in this other school. There are more teachers.

You have more programming. Now they are into those schools and there is more

programming, I believe, coming out of those as well. That is the concern I have,

and a lot of people have that concern.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: My sense is that at Ascension Collegiate today there is

perhaps a greater variety and option for high school students this year than any

previous year. That would be my guess.

MR. BUTLER: Can you say that over the next two years?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In terms of the different programs that are available.

MR. REID: I would say 1983 was the biggest course offering they ever had.

MR. BUTLER: I agree.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is an interesting point of discussion. Just out of

curiosity, I will see if I can get that information for you, okay?

MR. BUTLER: I would appreciate that.

Just one other little question, Minister. It has nothing to do, I guess, with

the Estimates, but it is a thing that concerns me and I am sure Tom is aware of

this one as well. I have been back and forth to the school board, to the

Department of Education, under different ministers, under different governments,

and still cannot get anywhere - so, Gerry, you don't mind me saying this, do

you?

AN HON. MEMBER: You want someone to sign off on that land.

MR. BUTLER: No, I am not even bringing that up here tonight. I will not

get into that one at all.

It is no large amount of money, and that is the parking lot at Coley's

Point Primary. I hear hon. members in the House talking about the birds, the

seagulls and ducks landing in the potholes in their roads. If anyone could only

drive in over that little parking lot - and it is impossible to get the few

dollars to assist them. Do you know what they are doing now? They are going to

have a ticket draw out there to try to raise enough money to pave their parking

lot. Seriously, it is unbelievable, and it is no bigger than this here, where

you drive in and come back out again. It is unreal, and the school boards says:

No, we do not have the money because of this. The Department of Education will

say: Well, we gave the school board the money to look after those things. I

mean, you are going in and down, it is unbelievable. There is not a road in the

Province like it. I know you do not have the money here tonight to give me, but

I am just wondering; there must be something in the system that something like

that can be looked after, with all the dollars that flow back and forth. I think

for around $15,000 they can have it all paved and will not have the problem any

more. Now they are grading it every year and in three years they will cover the

cost of the pavement in grading and filling in the holes.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Was it ever paved?

MR. BUTLER: No, it was never paved, not to my knowledge anyway.

That is the only comment I want to make on that.

AN HON. MEMBER: It took Roncalli, I think, thirty-two years to get theirs

paved.

MR. BUTLER: I will not go into how many years this has been there, but I

took Grade 10 and Grade 11 there.

AN HON. MEMBER: A long time ago.

MR. BUTLER: That is the only thing (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: The road has held up well.

MR. REID: To be fair to the minister, if he gave that board $1 million

tonight, he could not guarantee they would pave the parking lot.

MR. BUTLER: I know that.

MR. REID: A couple of questions. I would assume that you are not going to

have to put any money in to honour your commitment on no class larger than

twenty-five in kindergarten.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is phased in, as you know, over the mandate.

MR. REID: Yes, I know, but I don't imagine there was ever a class of

twenty-five in the Province in kindergarten, was there?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Very few. There might have been in urban centres, but

the plan there is to phase that in to all primary grades by the end of this

present mandate.

MR. REID: No, that is not what it said. Over three years, starting in

kindergarten.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

CHAIR: That is the first edition that you had there, Gerry.

MR. REID: There are four of them, right?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. REID: I would say, by the time you have to honour that one, there

will be fewer than twenty-five, for sure, in those couple of classes that you

got there.

The other one is just a question on the boards. The assistant superintendents

and the associate assistant directors - I call them superintendents - they are

not unionized positions, are they? They are not NLTA? They cannot bump back into

the classroom?

MR. GALWAY: Yes, the associate assistants are generally bargaining unit

positions that have been reassigned, but the assistant directors and the

directors are not bargaining unit positions.

MR. REID: Depending on the contracts they signed, I guess?

MR. GALWAY: No, I do not think they are -

MR. REID: All associate assistant directors are members of the NLTA?

MR. GALWAY: That is correct.

MR. REID: So, their positions would have remained in the school?

MR. GALWAY: Either their positions would have been held or they would

have been reassigned in accordance with the collective agreement.

MR. REID: So, if I were to fill the position vacated by an associate

assistant director, would I be losing my job this year?

MR. GALWAY: If the position itself was held, there would have been a

cascade effect and, depending on the seniority, there probably would be some

shifting. If there wasn't a specific position held, then there would be a

position found, an equivalent position, somewhere in the system for those

individuals.

MR. REID: On the $2 million over four years for busing, I guess that is

coming in future years?

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

MR. REID: All right.

CHAIR: I thank you very much, Minister. There being no further questions,

I ask the Clerk to call the heads please.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 through 4.5.02 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 through 4.5.02 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.5.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Department of Education carried without

amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you all.

First of all, Minister, I thank you and your staff for the enlightening

answers, and I thank my colleagues for their questions and input.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you.

CHAIR: To the Committee members, I thank you for the past two or three

days. To the staff, thank you for your support.

On motion, the Committee adjourned sine die .