May 1, 2007 RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Percy Barrett, MHA for

Bellevue, replaces Yvonne Jones, MHA for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Harding): Order, please!

I would like to welcome you all this evening as we debate the Estimates of

the Department of Environment and Conservation.

After the Clerk calls the first subhead, the minister may begin speaking. He

has up to fifteen minutes. He will introduce the people from his department and

give an overview of his department's estimates for this coming year. After

that, then, the Committee members may begin asking questions.

I would like to remind the departmental officials, before you speak, if you

could identify yourself so that the people in Hansard will be able to know who

is answering or commenting.

I guess we are all ready now and I would ask the Clerk to call the first

subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 1.1.01. carry?

Minister Jackman.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to

discuss the department's estimates for the fiscal year 2007-2008.

Joining me today are my officials: Mr. Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister; Mr.

Bas Cleary, Assistant Deputy Minister for Environment; Mr. Allister Taylor,

Assistant Deputy Minister for Lands. Unfortunately, the Director for Policy and

Planning could not make it. He has been on a flight and delayed for the last two

days due to fog and everything else. He didn't get in until some time this

evening, so he spent the last two days, like I said, pounding around the

airports. Also, we have Mr. Gerry Crocker behind me here, the Director of

Financial and General Operations, and Ms Diane Hart, Director of Communications.

For the 2007-2008 fiscal year, a gross budget in the amount of $42,730,000 is

reflected in the Estimates to cover departmental costs for the protection and

the enhancement of the environment, and the management and regulatory protection

of the Province's provincial parks, ecological reserves, natural areas,

wildlife, inland fish, water, and Crown land resources. To offset a portion of

the cost related to the revenue, $18,214,000 is budgeted, which results in an

estimated net total expenditure of $24,516,000.

The gross budget for the department's four main programs is as follows:

Executive and Support Services, $13,415,100; Environmental Management and

Control, $8,719,700; Lands, $5,532,000; Wildlife Parks and Natural Heritage,

$15,063,200.

The Department of Environment and Conservation is responsible for the

Environment Branch, which includes pollution prevention, water resources and

environmental assessment. Mr. Bas Cleary is the ADM responsible. In addition to

the head office, we have offices in Corner Brook and Grand Falls-Windsor.

The Lands Branch includes Crown lands, surveys, mapping and land management.

Mr. Allister Taylor is the ADM responsible. Our Lands Division has satellite

offices in Corner Brook, Gander, Clarenville and Labrador.

The Natural Heritage Branch includes parks, protected areas and wildlife. The

ADM position is currently vacant; however, we are actively looking to fill this

position.

The Parks Division is located in Deer Lake, and the Wildlife Division is

located in Corner Brook with a satellite office in Labrador.

Sustainable development and strategic science manages the sustainable

development issues and the Institute for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Science,

known as IBES, in Corner Brook. Shane Mahoney is the Executive Director of this

branch.

I am pleased to report that we have several significant initiatives funded

this year. Probably the most important is the funding to ensure appropriate

management measures are in place to mitigate the declining caribou population.

In addition to the remaining $1.4 million of the two-year $3 million strategy

announced last year to be used to study the Northern Peninsula caribou herds,

there is $650,000 in new funding to test management plans related to a pilot

predator strategy, and another $330,000 to carry out ongoing long-term caribou

data synthesis, herd composition surveys and calf mortality studies.

Also, we have increased our investment in the provincial park system by $1

million and we have expanded the parks renewal strategy from a three-year

commitment to a four-year $4 million initiative. This will mean service

improvements to make our parks more attractive and to provide a range of

services and amenities demanded by park users.

Funding is being provided to support government's commitment to sustainable

development programs, including a round table and strategic management plan. As

well, there is funding to promote co-operative wildlife projects, to strengthen

the environmental process and to ensure projects are in compliance with

environmental standards, and to promote and enhance research initiatives through

IBES.

The department has also received $23 million from the federal government that

will be used to move forward on clean energy related projects like energy

efficiency of public buildings, greenhouse gas reductions through enhanced waste

management techniques, including methane gas recovery and utilization, and a

climate change innovation fund.

I appreciate the consideration that you will give our budget today, and my

officials and I will do our best to answer your questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Who is going to begin now, Mr. Joyce or...?

MR. JOYCE: I will start quick.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister.

I will just go through some of the line items first, and I have a few general

questions after.

In 1.2.01., Executive Support, the budget Salaries last year was over a fair

bit. From last year, it is over about $250,000. Can you just explain?

MR. JACKMAN: We had two individuals who finished up with the department.

These are payments that were paid out as per their termination benefits. One was

an ADM who retired. That is what those fund were, additional funds to offset

that.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The Transportation and Communications line under Executive Support is over

budget again this year, but your office appears to be under budget. Is this a

separate line item?

MR. JACKMAN: No. As I indicated in my

preamble, there was no ADM

stationed out in Corner Brook. We are actively trying to recruit one there, but,

on a temporary basis, to deal with some issues related to wildlife and trying to

get someone right there in the field, we temporarily placed an individual there.

Those expenses are related to travel back and forth to Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: The ADM in Corner Brook has not been filled yet?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we were very close. We had advertised for it and we had

an individual who was all lined up. We were very confident that individual was

going to start, but, at the very last minute, due to, my understanding, personal

issues and so on and so forth, he had to withdraw, so we are actively pursuing

that again now.

MR. JOYCE: Is that the ADM who was terminated? Because the termination

benefits are -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is one of the positions that was mentioned

earlier, but, like I said, we have not been able to fill that yet.

MR. JOYCE: He should have never released that information beforehand,

should he?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Under Supplies, Purchased Services, and Property, Furnishings

and Equipment, it is all over budget.

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at 07?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, that is related to the purchase of some routine

furniture. If I can just give you an example, in one of our boardrooms we

replaced the chairs and that there. When you go into a meeting and there are

three or four of them squeaking, and you grease them up with oil and is still

doesn't work, it is time to replace them.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Under 1.2.02., since 2004-2005 most of the Employee Benefits have been over

budget. Again, you are budgeting - you stay around $55,000, but every year -

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at the $55,000 there gone to $105,000?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and that has been two or three years in a row.

MR. JACKMAN: You are right on that one. As a matter of fact, it seems to

be an ongoing issue. Like you say, it seems to show up every year.

We have put forward to have that increased because, like you say, it is

anticipated every year, but it did not get approved. So we will go through the

process again, and I will imagine in the following year that will go up. Those

things are related specifically to Workers' Compensation issues.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, so it is all benefits in the -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Last year in 1.2.03., Salaries - I guess this is why this

sticks out. The budgeted Salaries was $688,000 but there was only $572,000

spent.

MR. JACKMAN: There was $572,000 and we are budgeting for $688,000. I will

tell you, that one in particular - the 3 per cent increase is one of the things

that is taken out of that and, secondly, we are going to put in place this year

a mobile environmental education team. What we are basically looking at is

putting in place a vehicle that we will take out to the Province and get out the

message about climate change, waste management, all these types of issues

related to the environment, and we are looking at a $30,000 allocation there.

When you take that into consideration, the $30,000 and a 3 per cent increase,

that is where those things are coming from.

MR. JOYCE: In the same line item, there was budgeted $400,700 for

Purchased Services but only $70,000 was spent.

MR. JACKMAN: This one here is - climate change is central. This was not

an initiative that we had budgeted for, we put it forward to the federal

government. We were anticipating that, through climate change initiatives - and

this started under the former Liberal federal administration - that we were

going to get $1 million through climate change. That did not result, but we had

budgeted that we would put $400,000 there. When that did not happen, just from

our regular funds then, we allocated $70,000 there. As you can see, that is down

to $10,000 budgeted for this year. So that initiative is no longer going to be

into effect. We will probably get into it a little bit later, funding that the

federal government have brought forward in terms of the equal trust.

This entire segment, if you are looking under Policy Development Planning,

what was budgeted for 2006-2007, you see that a lot of these funds - the second

one is $15,000 down to $2,000; $131,000 down to $65,000, because we had budgeted

for climate change initiatives but that did not come about.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In the same subhead, there was approximately $800,000 in Grants and Subsidies

that was supposed to go towards some cleanups of some contaminated sites.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay. Where are you right now?

MR. JOYCE: In the same subhead, 1.2.03., but there was only about

$100,000 spent.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, I am missing you. This one right here, $810,000 under

Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: That, again, is just what I have spoken about. That was not

specific to cleanups or anything of that nature. That was money that we had

anticipated getting from the climate change sensor, which would have been $1

million. That did not get realized. As a result, you see where it is, it is down

to $100,000.

If you go to the next

section there, the Grants and Subsidies - in our

present allocation we have placed in there a portion of the equal trust fund,

that we are going to be getting $23 million over the next three years. What we

have budgeted in there this year is the one-year portion of that $23 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

This Grants and Subsidies, $810,000 was mainly some kind of federal

contribution that did not come through?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We had a number of projects that we had put forward to

the federal government under climate change initiatives which did not get

realized. Like I said, it was under the previous federal government and then

when the government changed, as you know, the present Conservative government

are going with their own green plan initiative, which is different, but we have

acquired the monies under the equal trust, a total of $23 million over the

course of three years.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Section 1.2.05., Administrative Support capital. It says that there was $1.1

million for provincial parks last year but there was only about $900,000 spent,

it looks like.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it was.

MR. JOYCE: How come the other -

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at - there is a $90,000 variance?

MR. JOYCE: Two hundred thousand, pretty close.

MR. JACKMAN: The consultant's work for assessment and design, in

connection to the park revitalization, did not come up to the full amount that

we had anticipated.

MR. JOYCE: Is that study done now?

MR. JACKMAN: The work completed in terms of park renewal?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is ongoing. This year we have committed an extra

million. We had a $3 million fund put into it over the course of three years. We

have expanded that now. We have put another $1 million into it, so we are going

to make it a four-year program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Park improvements was supposed to be done to four or

five parks around. Was that work done?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it was.

MR. JOYCE: I will just ask the officials or yourself, and this is just

from my point of view in the Bay of Islands: Was there anything done for Blow Me

Down Provincial Park? I do not think there was, but is there anything slated? It

has been a while since there has been any capital investment out in that park.

MR. JACKMAN: Gerry, do you have that list there that we were talking

about, to see if Blow Me Down is on there?

I will say one thing, this past summer I went around and visited eight of our

parks and if there is one thing I can say, is that certainly the staff is a

committed group to the parks.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Secondly, our parks, I think, are comparable to anything in

this nation, and I think we recognize that, and those are identified.

Do you have that list? Yes.

In Blow Me Down, it says year two there is going to be some $25,000 spent

there on trails and signage. In year three we are looking at electrical hookups.

MR. JOYCE: Is this year two, this year?

MR. JACKMAN: This is year two, this year. There is $25,000 for that one

this year and in year three, like I said, there is going to be electrical

hookups and a kitchen shelter is going to be developed as well.

As result of my travels around, I am going to be sitting down with staff and

taking a look at trying to advance some of those projects. What I heard this

past summer is that we are losing some clientele, because we have tourists, for

example, who are travelling and expecting to find a particular service in a

particular park and when it is not there they are passing by. It is something

that we have to take a look at.

Secondly, I think clientele in our parks are changing. In the last couple of

years attendance at the parks have picked up. I think it may have been down

before that and I attributed it to this very simple fact. Ten or fifteen years

ago those of us who were willing to sleep on the ground in a sleeping bag kind

of want memory foam under us right now, and we travel around with bigger rigs

and we want more comfort. This plan here is something that is going to cater to

that type of individual.

MR. JOYCE: This $25,000 for trails, will that be spent within the parks

or in the surrounding area to help complement the parks?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot speak for certain on that. That is something we

would have to check with the -

MR. JOYCE: Would you mind?

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, can you -

MR. JOYCE: And I will explain why. Out in Lark Harbour where the park is,

there are two or three trails and we get a lot of tourists. With a bit of

upgrade it would keep a lot of tourists in the area itself. There is a big

development going out there, a $1.5 million development with ten or twelve new

self-efficiency units out in that area.

MR. JACKMAN: So you are talking about where local people would stay?

MR. JOYCE: No, tourists would stay.

MR. JACKMAN: Tourists would stay.

MR. JOYCE: When they come out, yes. (Inaudible) now with the upgraded

trails done. I am trying to get money for the other trails, but in the park

itself there are some nice trails there, that if they were upgraded people would

stay.

Plus, out there with the new development, with the self-efficiency units, it

would be a great complement if the trails in the park and the surrounding area

were upgraded. So, that is a good move to keep people in the area.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if you heard, but today we launched our

official Web site for making reservations on-line. I will put a little plug in

for that now.

Up until this year, eight of our parks could only be used to make a

reservation through a toll-free number. As of today, we have launched www.nlcamping.ca .

You can go on now and book your campsite on-line. So, on May 24 when you see

people lining up outside of our parks trying to get their place in line for

their spot, well, as of today you can go on-line and book your site and just

arrive at the park with your confirmation number and you are there. So, it is a

new system, something that people asked for, something that we have done. I

think it is going to prove very positive for the entire parking experience, not

only for people in the Province but for tourists outside.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do they have to put a deposit?

MR. JACKMAN: You just go in and you make a reservation. It will cost you

$10 plus GST. So, it is a total of $10.60.

AN HON. MEMBER: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: This provincial park recapitalization strategy, is that a

public document or is that a departmental document?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, I cannot say for sure. Do we have that as a public

document?

MR. HOLLETT: No, to my knowledge, there is not a public document out that

details all of the plans. The plans are sort of evolving based on the total

funds that are there. As we get planning work done -

MR. JOYCE: The document itself is an internal document, it is not a

public document itself?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Like, I cannot get my hands on that document to see what the

strategy is for the parks in the Province?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. JACKMAN: If you want to sit down and have a discussion about it, we

might find the time in the House one day -

MR. JOYCE: The reason why I asked is because I know the potential out in

Blow Me Down, mainly. I would just like to sit down with somebody, because I

live out there a lot in the summertime.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the issue with it is that we have allocated, for

example, in year one $1 million. When we got into starting the work we were

finding that in order to get this segment of the park completed you may run

over. So, you have to adjust your project accordingly. First and foremost, we

have it as a three-year plan, extended to a four-year plan. All of the parks in

there, including Blow Me Down, have been slated to have some work done with

them.

Having said that, there are also priorities, like the J.T. Cheesman Park, for

example. We have a bridge that needs to be done. We did not have that slated to

be done until, say, year three, but we have had to readjust our

schedule because

there is a liability involved there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Another thing that I always bring up every year, even

when we were in government in this Administration, is the extension of the

season for out in Blow Me Down, out in Lark Harbour. You will find more and more

tourists are coming now later in the season, in September. Last year I brought

it up, the year before I brought it up, the year before. I do not know if there

is anyway to extend it by three or four weeks, or four or five weeks, because

there are a lot of people who drive out and just have to turn around and come

in.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we will take note of that. You brought it up last year

MR. JOYCE: I brought it up last year. I have been bringing it up now for

six or seven years. It is almost like somewhere in the department there is a

discussion on the number of people who go through, and if it does not warrant it

- I just feel a lot of times - out our way, on the West Coast, we get a lot more

tourists in the fall of the year than you do in the - now not more than the

summer but there is enough to warrant it in the fall.

MR. JACKMAN: I think your statement is valid in that we have seen weather

conditions change a lot over the last three years. Our September and October now

are as good as our July and August were a number of years ago.

Yes, okay, we will check into that.

MR. JOYCE: It is just a suggestion. If there is any way to extend it by

three or four weeks, it would be great for the area, great for the park staff, a

great morale boost.

MR. JACKMAN: You would get away from the snow on May 24, too.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, we have lots of (inaudible).

I am not sure, Minister, if this is information that you guys would have.

When they had the play out there, probably about six or seven months ago, they

left a ship out there. Did they put that in the park? They made a boat of the

Vikings and they were putting it up as a tourism site. I am not sure if they put

it in the park or not.

MR. JACKMAN: I can't recall that.

MR. JOYCE: I know the request was coming in.

Under 2.1.01., Pollution Prevention, last year you were going to create some

new positions and fill some vacancies. Was that carried out?

MR. JACKMAN: What we have is that there were some vacancies that we did

not get filled, but one of the things is that we have added three new positions

this year. We have a position for industrial and commercial environmental

issues, we are going to address spills and leaks as it relates to oil tanks, and

we have revised pesticide regulations now so we have another individual around

enforcement for that.

The industrial and commercial environmental issues, there is going to be a

position that specifically will take a look at the traffic in Placentia Bay, for

example. We need to develop a plan in the event that something should happen.

The federal government are active on it right now through the SmartBay

project. We have individuals on that. Now we are taking the component as to, we

need to do something from a provincial perspective, so a position is there for

that.

MR. JOYCE: Was there any position created for the Waste Management

Strategy?

MR. JACKMAN: The Waste Management Strategy? Well, the positions that were

there under -

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you looking particularly now at 2.1.02?

MR. JOYCE: No, 2.1.01., Waste Management Strategy.

There is going to be a plan developed. I was assuming that there was going to

be a position just for that, the Waste Management Strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: There will be.

MR. JOYCE: There is not yet, though, is there?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we do not have a position there yet.

MR. HOLLETT: Those positions were going to be funded by the

Multi-Materials Stewardship Board, so the funding for three positions for the

Waste Management Strategy would be down in the Revenue - Provincial line. They

would not show up in the Salaries line.

MR. JOYCE: Is there a Waste Management Strategy plan done yet,

implementation of the plan or the strategy done?

MR. JACKMAN: That is a policy thing, working with Municipal Affairs. That

is close at hand. You are talking about the overall provincial strategy?

MR. JOYCE: The provincial strategy, yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is close at hand.

MR. JOYCE: The cleanup site up in St. Anthony, I know a few years ago

when I was sitting here they were going to hire a consultant - and it was almost

done.

MR. JACKMAN: All done.

MR. JOYCE: All done? All cleaned up?

MR. JACKMAN: All done.

MR. JOYCE: Done, perfect.

Subhead 2.2.01., Water Resources Management, Salaries, Transportation and

Communications and Professional Services increased by approximately $500,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

These projects, again, are joint projects with the federal government. These

are matching funds. Under Salaries, you are looking at it gone from $1,420,000

up to $1,697,000?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: The additional funding is provided to cover issues as they

relate to municipal waste water effluent, a Waste Water Technician II, a water

use analysis study, and we have pilot studies of performance indicators and the

national water supply expansion programs. That increase is basically salaried

positions on partnerships with the federal government.

MR. JOYCE: Minister - and I don't know if this is appropriate for the

department - is there any chance to get a breakdown of what programs the

Department of Environment are partaking that are cost shared, and the amount,

with the provincial and federal government?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: That wouldn't be a problem to get, would it?

MR. JACKMAN: No. As a matter of fact, if you are looking at this one,

Water Resources Management, continued again as 2.2.02., we can get you that. I

will wait until you get to the wildlife. It is the same thing.

MR. JOYCE: It is the same thing. Well, a lot of it, even if you could

send me over all of the agreements that you have, that you can release, that are

provincial-federal cost shared.

MR. JACKMAN: In the department of wildlife it is the same thing; we have

those projects. The thing about it is - and I will just use this as an off the

top of my head number - by putting in, I don't know, $700,000, we can leverage

$2.5 million from the federal government. We can provide those to you.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Section 2.3.01., again I will not get into Salaries because I would say that

is cost shared also. In 2005-2006 there is about $30,000 in for revenues, and

this year the revenues are expected to be over $200,000.

MR. JACKMAN: In provincial revenues?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: As you are probably aware, we have the megaprojects that are

on the go, and these are fees related to such things as registration of the EA

processes.

MR. JOYCE: So they are mainly just fees that have to be paid to the

department or to the government itself to clean up sites?

MR. JACKMAN: It is part of registration processes. We have LNG that are

looking at environmental assessments. These types of projects, megaprojects, are

just the normal run of the fees that come in. These are cost recovery items.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Crown Land, 3.1.01., the Transportation and Communications budget goes up by

$40,000 this year. Is that a - Transportation and Communications.

MR. JACKMAN: More communications than anything else. It has gone up by

$40,000 and it is related to Crown titled mapping.

MR. JOYCE: Under 3.1.02., Minister - I am almost finished - I think there

was a commitment last year to hire additional staff to collect some overdue

accounts on land.

MR. JACKMAN: Since we have Allister Taylor we don't need additional

staff; he is doing quite well collecting.

[Laughter]

MR. JOYCE: There was an increase there of about $590,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Which line are you looking at right now?

MR. JOYCE: Under 3.1.02.

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of Salaries?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: We have gone from $590,000 budgeted to $596,000, so that is

a $6,000 increase.

MR. JOYCE : Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Those are basically for minor variances, and we had hoped

that we were going to move on the Salmonier project with recruitment and 3 per

cent collections.

Do you want to comment on it? Bruce will comment.

MR. HOLLETT: In part, that is a very small increase. Some of it is the 3

per cent wage increase for staff.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The next one, Professional Services, it was budgeted for $100,000 and it went

up to $170,000, and last year I think there was only about $64,000 spent, in

2005-2006. Am I correct, in that last year it was $64,000 spent on Professional

Services under Land Management?

MR. JACKMAN: Under Land Management right now under Professional Services

we have $170,000 there.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and last year I think there was only about $64,000 spent.

MR. JACKMAN: No, we had $160,000 spent, a $10,000 difference.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: We budgeted $170,000, we got $160,000, and this coming year

we are budgeting $120,000.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Was it budgeted at $100,000 last year and it went up to $170,000?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we budgeted $170,000.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Wait now; he is right on that, isn't he? Because there was

a one-time $100,000 - is that right, Gerry?

MR. CROCKER: There was a revised variance there of $10,000 as a reduction

of contractual services required last year, and in 2006-2007 there was an

additional $50,000 provided for cottage lot development.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. CROCKER: There was $100,000 taken off the base, so it went down to

$70,000.

MR. JOYCE: It did, yes.

MR. CROCKER: There was an additional $50,000 put in to cover cottage lot

development.

MR. JACKMAN: That would have been the $70,000; and this year what we have

done is, we have put in an additional $50,000 for the cottage development.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, can I ask you a question? I don't even know if it

is the right department or not. What is going on with the Kruger land out around

the West Coast? They can't get a piece of land approved. I think it is

Government Services, but I am sure your department is involved in it. Kruger, I

guess, is into a dispute with Crown Lands and they will not recommend anybody

get a Crown land permit.

MR. JACKMAN: I will let Allister speak to it, but there is the ongoing

issue as viewscapes versus Kruger's land, and so on and so forth.

Allister, do you want to comment on it?

MR. TAYLOR: What has happened on the West Coast is that Kruger has

decided that its forest space is being eroded and what they want, more or less,

and what they have been doing, is refusing certain applications. Cottage areas

they have refused; some agriculture leases they have refused. It all has to do

with - they are sitting down with government and we are trying to work out some

kind of compromise which will meet their requirements for future fibre resource

as well as our requirements for cottage development, and they are able to do it

under their legislation.

MR. JOYCE: There are some disputes on the go, I can assure you. I think

there are well over 150 or 175 cabin applications. People just cannot get any

headway because of Kruger; they just refuse to - I don't know if this is the

right place to ask it, but can the department go ahead and issue it without...?

MR. TAYLOR: No, we cannot.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: That right gives them also the right to refuse other uses of

that land.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I am going to ask a few general questions, if you do not mind.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The oil tank, it is my understanding your department - was it

your department that gave an extension for two years?

MR. JACKMAN: Extended it for two years.

MR. JOYCE: I was asked to bring up something by Wally Andersen for

Torngat Mountains. Part of the concern they have up there is - the extension is

great, but for the people who have to fly in, whoever gets their oil tanks

inspected got to pay for the cost to have the person fly in to actually do the

inspection. So, it does not matter if it is five or ten years, the cost is just

extremely high. Are there any allowances made by the department for that?

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Andersen has mentioned that to me as well. If we were to

look at the Island of Newfoundland, for example, I can get my tank done. I would

call the inspector to come in.

I think what we are going to have to take a look at is, rather than having

individuals pay for it, we are going to have to look at, possibly, a couple of

trips a year in there. Say to people that: Okay, we are coming in December and

we may be coming again in April or whatever; whatever is the best month to do

that. An inspector then can go in and inspect a number, as opposed to having one

done here sporadically. So we will have to work out something like that.

I will get you just to jot that down. We will follow up on that. It is

something that we definitely have to address and if we have to address it

through the Combined Councils or something of that nature, it is a topic that we

need to deal with. Maybe that is the route to go. We will sit down and have a

meeting with the Combined Councils and come up with a practical way. I think

that is what we will do.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Another thing is, just from my own - is there any way to

get a list of approved companies that can actually approve the oil tanks?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, any of your oil providers can.

MR. JOYCE: Some say they cannot. There are a few of them - I do not know

if there is a standard list because some of them who are just burner mechanics,

they are not certified to do it. I know two or three of them with Ultramar, they

cannot and some more can. I do not know if there is a list because we get a lot

of calls at the office looking for people who can do it and sometimes if you

have to go through a private company, it costs a lot more than if you get

somebody who is out on their own or who has a smaller company. I do not know if

there is a list or not.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, what we will do is we will check into that and just -

MR. JOYCE: And just forward me a list so I could give it to people who

call.

MR. JACKMAN: So, you are looking into your particular district?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, Bay of Islands and -

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: - it would be the Cormack area because we deal with them.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Then you can give them the list of suppliers and let them

contact them and get the best price they can, because some of them feel -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but generally your provider are the ones who would

inspect.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Bay Verte Mines, where is that at now, Minister? I know it was just announced

for the cleanups of the mines there.

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to ask Mr. Cleary to answer that one.

MR. CLEARY: The responsibility for clean up of that site rests with the

Department of Natural Resources since they are the owners of the property. What

our role would be in the department is to ensure that it is cleaned up to the

proper environmental standards.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, there are a lot of comments on just what the department is feeling

on it. I am getting, not a lot of calls, but there are a few people who have

outfitters lodges and live in the Bay of Islands, about the caribou herd,

especially with the coyotes and -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and I am trying to get the point out there as much as I

possibly can, that as much as we look at the coyote as a predator, research is

indicating that the black bear is equally the predator that the coyote is. Of

course, this past year we put in $3 million to do some research on it.

I noticed today, the Member for Humber Valley mentioned that we need to take

action now. So, this year we put $650,000 into a pilot predator program. What

that is basically going to do is - and this was at the request of outfitters and

some resident hunters - we are going to seek the assistance of the outfitters

and local hunters and trappers to enter into a predation program. Then, based on

that - this is our first investment. As a result, then we will see what goes

from that and then if we feel we need to have a follow up in subsequent years,

we will. The studies are showing us that calves who make it past six months,

their survival rate is a lot higher, but the survival rate of calves from zero

to six months is very low.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the issue of caribou licences - I am not sure if

that is under your department for outfitters.

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is under Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. JOYCE: It is an issue that a lot of people have where -

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of issuing to -

MR. JOYCE: The outfitters themselves.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is under Tourism.

MR. JOYCE: The Centre of Excellence for Biodiversity. I think it is

4.2.02. Can you tell me the status on that?

MR. JACKMAN: Subhead 4.2.02?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Biodiversity, please.

MR. JACKMAN: Subhead 4.2.02. I think you are referring to 4.2.07.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 4.2.07, yes. Sorry, you are right.

MR. JACKMAN: The Centre for Environmental Excellence is quite different

from what we have here. That does not fall under our department. This one does,

the Institute for Biodiversity.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: What we have done this year is increased support for that.

As a matter of fact, there are two positions there right now. We are increasing

that to five. We are putting in a director, a research manager and a funding

officer, in addition to the two people who are there. My argument to this was,

as a government department, likewise any other government department, if we are

looking for information on a particular matter we really do not have an arm of

government that we can look to, to get that. I think this - an institute such as

we have here allows us to do that.

Just a simple fact, it is going to be operating out of Corner Brook. If I

want some research done on turrs out in Placentia Bay, we do not have a body

that we can go to. I see something of this nature getting into that, plus things

around climate change and environmental issues. I think it fits the West Coast

quite well. When you look at the tourism that we have over there, on a seasonal

basis, how the forest industry, tourism and so on also intertwine, I think it is

key to that particular area. So, we are supporting that more.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I am finished with the questions, but before I go, minister, I just want to

thank you and the staff. I deal with the staff out in Corner Brook on a regular

basis. They are always there to be helpful and very cordial, very supportive and

hardworking individuals. The dealings I had with you personally, just thank you

very much for the assistance that you have given me personally on some of the

matters that I brought forward to your attention.

MR. JACKMAN: No problem. This crowd here is not bad either.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Any further questions?

Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I brought this issue up with the previous minister on

many occasions, the whole issue of Agent Orange and the use in the Province. I

asked the minister, at the time, to conduct a study in terms of how it was used,

but I also have some concerns in terms of a lot of Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians - of course, former Armed Forces people and what have you, were

involved in New Brunswick. We all know that there are serious implications in

New Brunswick at the base there. Has the department taken any leadership role in

terms of trying to identify these people? I know that I did have one in my

district who has since died with cancer.

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking specifically about people who worked out of

New Brunswick and are residents of the Province?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Now, I would have to check on that, but I am not aware that

we have investigated anything as related to that particular situation, people

who were away, because at Gagetown they did, but I am not aware.

MR. CLEARY: We have done some preliminary work in just trying to contact

some of the industries in the Province, like the pulp and paper industries and

the utilities, in terms of their use of this product. We have not found very

widespread use of Agent Orange in this Province to this date, based on what we

have received back from industry and others who may have used these types of

sprays.

MR. JACKMAN: I know of one (inaudible) they have identified that Agent

Orange, as the chemical that you know it, was never used in this Province. There

was a compound of it, 245T, which was used but investigation seem to tell us

that there has not been anything identified in regard to that.

MR. BARRETT: I am just wondering in terms of, have we identified the

number of people, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, for example, who were

involved in New Brunswick? Are we doing anything for them or are we just leaving

it to the federal government to investigate and to follow up on what happened to

these people? Some Newfoundlanders and Labradorians might not even be aware that

- I think there is a compensation package that is going to be given out to these

people. I am just wondering, what are we doing to assist these people?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, the first thing we have to do is to check and see if

there is an investigation to identify people in the Province who are there. So

that is something - I will check on that.

MR. BARRETT: I think a letter, for example, to authorities that are

handling this in terms of what is happening and what is going on with it, then

we would be able to communicate that to the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who

had served time at Camp Gagetown.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: I mean, I could write a letter but it not going to have the

same impact as coming from the Minister of Environment and Conservation of

Newfoundland and Labrador or from the department. I think we would provide a

valuable service because I know some of these people are asking me these

questions and I cannot answer their questions in terms of: What is the update in

terms of what is happening? Probably you could do it as a ministerial statement

tomorrow.

MR. JACKMAN: Pardon?

MR. BARRETT: Do it as a ministerial statement tomorrow?

MR. JACKMAN: I think probably -

MR. BARRETT: - and start off by giving the Member for Bellevue credit for

it, right?

MR. JACKMAN: We always give credit where credit is due.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: I think we will check with Intergovernmental Affairs on that

as well.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, I think it is important that we be seen as supporting

them in terms of - they might even need some legal advice.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

MR. BARRETT: The other issue that I directed many times to the other

minister was: Have you still said no to putting independent monitors on our oil

rigs, our offshore platforms? Is that still the answer of government? Are we

waiting for an oil spill out there to happen?

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking specifically on the actual rig?

MR. BARRETT: On the Terra Nova, on the White Rose and all the other ones.

Right now, we do not have independent monitors, environmental monitors. We saw a

few cases that happened. Thank God, we have not had any lately, but I think

there should be someone from the department, independent of everybody else, to

monitor what is going on out there.

MR. JACKMAN: It is something that I will follow up on but I will say

this, I would hope that oil companies now are environmentally aware enough that

they would do everything in their power to avoid such incidents.

I will be very honest and up front with you, my biggest concern will be with

traffic as it relates to Placentia Bay. If we see the development of these mega

projects, we are going to see a huge increase in the number of oil tankers that

come into our bay. You and I both have a lot at stake in that particular bay.

Therefore, as I said to Mr. Joyce, we have recognized that and we are putting

staff in to start to develop a plan specifically around that.

MR. BARRETT: I hope they do not hit the sandpiper.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BARRETT: You know the sandpiper, do you?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. I will tell you after what the sandpiper is.

MR. JACKMAN: You can tell us all now. You cannot go just telling me.

MR. BARRETT: It is a big concern, there is no doubt about it. I travel

that bay in a boat, on the sandpiper, from time to time and there is a lot -

MR. JACKMAN: Okay. Is it a tanker? You travel on the sandpiper. Is it a

tanker?

MR. BARRETT: I travel on the sandpiper and there is a lot of traffic in

Placentia Bay, there is no doubt about it.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, there is no doubt about it.

MR. BARRETT: When it is foggy it is pretty scary, actually.

MR. JACKMAN: You and I have both been out on that bay and you know the

number of tankers that are moored off out there now.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: The potential for increase is great there.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

I do have concerns on the rigs offshore in that I do not know how well it is

monitored in terms of - now that we have all of that money from the oil coming

in at least we should be able to hire some Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to

be offshore to monitor what is going on.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. I will just ask Mr. Hollett to speak on it.

MR. HOLLETT: One of the conditions of the environmental release for any

of those projects would have been proper emergency plans in case of an oil spill

and proper contingency plans in terms of how to deal with those situations.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but I am talking about preventing it, before it

happens, not what the response is going to be when there is a spill. Let's

face it, they are out there drilling and doing all of this activity and our

biggest resource is swimming around them, which is a renewable resource. What

they are pumping out is going to be gone in ten or fifteen years, but our whole

fishery resource and our whole ecology out there is probably just as important,

or more important in terms of our long-term sustainability and our future in

terms of our fishery. Sometimes we seem to get lost in the money coming from the

oil. I think we probably should be monitoring it more and more.

I hope I will never get to the point where I will say, I told you so. I would

feel more and more comfortable if there were independent monitors from the

Department of Environment and Conservation of this Province out there. I would.

MR. JACKMAN: It will be interesting that we have an individual who will

be in place this year to develop some policy around that and to see where this

might come into play.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Even if there was some spot monitoring or that sort of

stuff. Right now we seem to depend more or less on the petroleum board to

monitor everything. I know they have people there, but I do not feel comfortable

with it. I think that I would feel more comfortable if your department was

responsible for it.

The other pet peeve to me is the MMSB. How much has this board expanded in

the last two or three years? I hear that there are a lot of people coming on

staff, there are more and more people. What kind of funds are available? What

kind of revenues are coming in? What kind of pot do they have over there? Is

that in their annual report?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes and their annual report is available through -

MS HART: It is actually accessible under the Department of Finance

website as part of the public accounts. You should be able to get their

financial statements there.

MR. BARRETT: The public accounts?

MS HART: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Have they increased their staff very much over the last

number of years? Have they built up a big bureaucracy over there that we could

have them as independent monitors on the oil rigs instead?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I will tell you, my dealing with the MMSB is a very

positive one. I think they are very much a proactive arm's-length of

government and doing extremely well in the role that they are supposed to do. If

you look at probably four or five years ago, where would people have been with

composting, recycling, and so on and so forth. I think they have done an admiral

job in getting the message out there and I think more and more people are taking

part in it.

We had a celebration this year where Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have

recycled their 1 billionth beverage container. Now do not ask me how they keep

track of it, but they have a tracking system. We had an announcement around

that. I think schools and communities are taking part more and more. I think as

we come forward with the Waste Management Strategy, the MMSB has a larger role

to play in that.

I use my own area as an example, and part of your district. We have three

districts represented on the Burin Peninsula, twenty-eight dumps there. The MMSB

has funded a $50,000 position for a coordinator there who will now look at

rolling out the plan so that there is one waste management site on the

Peninsula. These are some of the roles sometimes that I do not think the MMSB

gets recognized for, and the funds that they collect, this is where they are

going.

MR. BARRETT: I would say, in terms of the beverage containers, that Paddy

Lambe in Clarenville has collected one-half of them. Are you familiar with Paddy

Lambe?

MR. JACKMAN: No, but I think a lot of our areas have similar people. They

may not be as active as Paddy Lambe, but I can name a couple of people down my

way who are regulars with picking up. They are providing a valuable role.

MR. BARRETT: How much their budget has increased, how much money they got

and all of that sort of thing is in their annual report?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, available through the Department of Finance website.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

We were on the subject of beverage containers and you said there were1

billion, was it?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Our goal was to reach 80 per cent. Have we come close to

reaching 80 per cent of the beverage containers?

MR. JACKMAN: I think right now - are we around -

MR HART: I will double check but it is in the 70 per cent range or a

little higher.

MR. BARRETT: It is up in the seventies, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: If I could make a statement, I think it is the younger

generation who are much into it. If you are finding people who might not be so

environmentally conscious they might be your age, a little bit younger than my

age.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I do not drink those soft drinks, therefore I do not

have to worry about that. I think we should have a refund on the Tim Horton's

coffee cups.

MR. JACKMAN: There is a component to that I think you will see will come

out in the Waste Management Strategy too. It is called the extended producer

responsibility. If you look at some of the things that we see on our side roads,

I do not want to use any brand names but there are two or three that are much

more prevalent than others. They have a role in this as well. That is something

that is being pursued, not only in this Province but nationally. They have a

responsibility whether it be one cent per cup, and I am just using that off the

top of my head. It is a way then of managing the amount of garbage that you see

in the ditches as related to those particular companies.

MR. BARRETT: I think there should be some kind of a deposit put on these

cups and the Paddy Lambes of the world would have a klondike in terms of - if

they just collected them so that they could be brought to a site where they

could be disposed of. I do not know if there is any recycling value in these

cups or not.

I was driving down the Burin Peninsula last weekend and I counted

twenty-eight cups between the Bay L'Argent intersection and just a little bit

past. I guess, by the time they left Marystown, the coffee was about to run out

by the time they got to the Bay L'Argent intersection. If there was somebody

there collecting them, even if there was four cents or something like that, that

people would get back, if they could take them somewhere where they could dump

them and dispose of them. I think it is becoming a real issue out around, these

particular cups.

The other issue that I would like to talk about: We have situations with a

lot of people in Newfoundland and Labrador where innocently their properties

were contaminated by oil spills. I know there was one particular person in

Gander where the department fell down on the job and did not take all the oil

out of the ground at that particular time, only took sixty litres out, and right

now he is in a house where it is of very little value.

Has anything been done by the department to follow up on some of these

situations that exist?

MR. JACKMAN: First and foremost, like you say, we have a number of them.

I guess some of the cases that you might allude to, at the time of clean up it

met the standard of the day. Now that standard has changed. Therefore, we have a

number of instances with neighbour A and neighbour B; neighbours A's leak

spilled onto neighbour B's. Some of these cases end up as legal battles and so

on so forth.

The case that you are talking about in particular is an ongoing one and has

been ongoing for a number of years. It has not been resolved at this point, but

I would say to you that at that particular time, I think the standard as it was,

was met.

I do not know if you want to comment on it any further.

WITNESS: That is about it.

MR. BARRETT: The problem is that these people, innocently, are left with

a contaminated site which was not their fault because it was the neighbour and

all this sort of stuff, and right now they are occupying property that is of

little value. They cannot sell it, they cannot get rid of it.

Shouldn't government take some responsibility?

MR. JACKMAN: Right now there are legal battles, as I said, that are going

on in some of these cases which is something that we cannot interfere in. In the

other case that you mentioned, this individual made representation to the

department again. I am not certain if we have responded on this account right

now, but again I think I will go back to my previous point, that the standard

that was established, say, ten or fifteen years ago was met. This individual

went in and however the cleanup was carried out, it was carried out. An

assessment was done based on those standards. It met the standard, therefore you

moved on.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, which means that the department was probably somewhat

responsible. They met the standards but the standards were not the proper

standards and we still ended up with contaminated sites.

MR. JACKMAN: Right.

MR. BARRETT: Anyway the other one, which I mentioned in the media

recently, is the stockpile of cars.

MR. JACKMAN: I was really expecting you to ask me a question on that one.

MR. BARRETT: We have a government site out there that was paying a lot of

money and there is no activity going on out there except for storing tires. That

haunted me about four years ago. As a matter of fact, Joan Cleary used it quite

properly to try to defeat me; that we were storing tires at Bull Arm. Now, I

guess, you will have the answer for it. There does not seem to be any plan for

the tires.

MR. JACKMAN: There is.

MR. BARRETT: That was supposed to be implemented a year ago.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I know. Well, not quite a year ago, just a couple of

months ago we said we would come out with our backup plan.

MR. BARRETT: Back in December.

MR. JACKMAN: In December.

We had three stockpiles in the Province, in Stephenville, Bull Arm and

Argentia. The stockpile in Stephenville is gone. We took care of that.

Now, the second thing - and this is what I said publicly. We had two options.

There is a private company that is looking at a new technology. The issue with

them was finding the financial support to move ahead. Right now that seems to be

moving ahead. Well, as far as my understanding of it is, they have secured

funding. We will be acting on that very shortly. In the event they cannot meet

at this time, then our backup plan is TDA, Tire Derived Aggregate. That means

bringing in a piece of equipment, cutting up the tires to construction site

material size and then using it in some road infrastructure, insulation around

buildings and so on and so forth.

We were told by the Department of Transportation, for example, there is a

section on the Bonavista Highway that keeps just dropping all of the time and

they think it is because of the terrain that is there. If we can use that as a

tire derived aggregate, as a backup plan, those are the types of projects that

it would be used in.

The only thing is, from my perspective, I certainly would like to give this

private group the opportunity to prove it, because I think we would have an

innovative technology that would be ahead of anything else in this country, and

we would be the lead Province in (inaudible). In the event that does not come

true, then we have our backup plan.

MR. BARRETT: There must be a lot of money in that $3 right now, is it?

MR. JACKMAN: Again, I cannot tell you the exact figure, but -

MR. BARRETT: Gee whiz, I must have about $1,000 in that $3 recycling in

just tires alone, myself.

MR. JACKMAN: You know, us politicians, we wear out tires.

MR. BARRETT: There must be a lot of money lying around from that $3

somewhere.

The other issue that I don't know if you are monitoring or not, and I have

seen it quite often recently, is our own Department of Works, Services and

Transportation and the contractors recycling or grinding up the asphalt and

dumping it in the ditches along the side of the road. Are we monitoring that? Is

the department monitoring that?

Particularly around Thorburn Lake, last year, I observed them grinding up

this asphalt and dumping it out in the ditch. As you know, there is a brook that

runs down there; it runs into a salmon river next to Port Blandford. All of this

asphalt, the grains of asphalt, is being released into the stream. If a private

individual was doing that sort of stuff they would be crucified, and here we

have our own department, one of the departments of government, out there

grinding up this asphalt and throwing it out in the ditch. They did it all along

the Trans-Canada out here, but particularly what really hit me more, I guess,

was when I saw it there by Thorburn Lake. As you know, the ditch goes down, and

a brook or stream goes down, to the salmon river there in Southwest Port

Blandford. They were at that for about two or three weeks there. Someone from

the department must have passed by it at one particular time to observe what was

going on.

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to let Bas speak to that.

MR. CLEARY: That is not a permitted activity.

MR. BARRETT: It is not permitted?

MR. CLEARY: No, it is not permitted. We would not allow Works and

Services to grind up asphalt and throw it in the ditch. Just a little while ago,

when they were repairing the Outer Ring Road, they started to do that one

morning and we issued a stop order to them. That is not allowed, no matter where

you do it on the highway. I guess we may have to step up our monitoring or have

a discussion with Works and Services, but that is not a permissible activity.

MR. BARRETT: It is going on everywhere. I spend a lot of time on the

highway, and just about every road job out there now, that is what they are

doing. They are shooting it out on the shoulder of the road. I know, because I

got out of the car and I walked down in the ditches, and you could not walk in

the ditches because this mucky old asphalt was there in the ditches.

MR. JACKMAN: I think what we will do - I will just mention it to the

deputy here - we will send out a directive to the Department of Transportation

and contractors who are coming up in this season to just inform them that this

is not permitted and that we will be monitoring. I know that if there are

certain individuals who see it happening they will call into the department and

then we can act on that complaint, but to send out a specific directive related

to that would be something that we would do.

MR. BARRETT: It really needs to be addressed. Actually, I called the

Department of Transportation and Works at the time and complained about it, that

it should not be happening.

I don't think I have any other questions. Any other questions I have are

too juicy and more interesting for Question Period in the House. I will do a

follow-up question on the highways one. To me, it is disgusting.

In closing, I want to thank and identify - Eddie, the Member for Bay of

Islands, identified the staff within the department, but in my eighteen years in

politics there is one division out of all of government that I found to be very,

very efficient and co-operative and they worked well. They worked like they

should all get a raise, the whole works of them, and that is the crowd that

works in the Crown Lands Division of your department.

MR. JACKMAN: Allister agrees with that.

MR. BARRETT: I have to say, they are really, really committed and they

really do a fantastic job. They return all the calls and they really do the

follow-up work. They go out of their way to assist you in every way possible.

Today, I want you to convey back to them that I really appreciate it over the

years. In the eighteen years I have been around here, they have been one of the

best agencies and divisions of government that I have dealt with. I just want

you to take that message back to them.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Sir.

MR. BARRETT: When you get the monitors on the rigs, I will compliment the

other crowd - and stop the asphalt in the ditches - I will compliment the other

crowd, the other divisions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Just one last question that I missed, Minister - and I will

give you a bit of background - is the dump site over in Wild Cove in the Corner

Brook area. As you know, they are trying to get a regional disposal site

somewhere in the area. A lot of residents on the North and South Shore want the

dump site in Wild Cove closed down. The Mayor of Corner Brook has publicly

stated that it will cost about $50 million to $60 million to develop a new site,

which taxpayers will have to pay from the North or South Shore, whoever uses it,

and it will cost another $30 million to bring that site back to its normal

state.

After the comments that Minister Jack Byrne made in Corner Brook, that the

government would develop a new site - not the taxpayers themselves in Corner

Brook; it would be a government thing - and to reclaim the old site, he said,

most of the money would come from MMSB, or part of the funds would come.

Does your department, and would your department, fund such a project, or have

there been any negotiations?

MR. JACKMAN: Funding - you mean the close out of Wild Cove?

MR. JOYCE: I used Wild Cove. If it had to be somewhere (inaudible),

because they are going to do an evaluation, do an assessment, and pick a site,

but a lot of the residents and a lot of the town councils on the West Coast are

saying that you cannot have the City of Corner Brook pre-establish a site of

which they are going to have total control, total ownership, which is old, which

was supposed to close two years ago. The fearmongering that they are using is

that it is going to cost us $50 million or $60 million to develop a new site and

another $30 million to clean this up.

MR. JACKMAN: From our department, basically, we set the standard. Under

the entire Waste Management Strategy under Municipal Affairs, they are going to

have to put in place the committee to determine where the site is going to be.

MR. JOYCE: I agree.

MR. JACKMAN: They are going to come to our department and then say, if it

is Wild Cove, they will identify the site, and they agree with it as an entire

waste management committee in that particular area. Then we will go in and say:

Does it meet the particular standard?

We would not be involved in determining whether it is going to be site A, B,

or C. We are just regulators.

MR. JOYCE: This is just hypothetical - because there is going to

supposedly be a committee set up to do this - if Wild Cove has to be closed and

find another regional site, has your department and will your department fund to

help reclaim this Wild Cove site?

MR. JACKMAN: That is going to come under the entire Waste Management

Strategy.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Part of the Waste Management Strategy is going to be the

recovery of the lands that are there.

MR. JOYCE: That is what Minister Byrne was saying out in Corner Brook. I

just want to confirm with you because eventually it will become a public issue

and I will state that the funds to develop a waste management site will be

supplied by the Province and then to clean up the site, some of the funds will

come from the Province, from the MMSB, as the minister mentioned.

Out in Corner Brook now, the whole issue is that towns would have to set up

the site and raise their taxes by so many mills to pay for the new site. Then

the City of Corner Brook will have to raise their taxes in the city to reclaim

the rest that the -

MR. JACKMAN: I think that is taking us a ways down the road because first

and foremost, a site is going to have to be determined. Then we are going to

have to take a look at what the tipping fees are all going to be, but I think

there is a whole set of things that will have to happen beforehand; education

around the entire thing, then developing and determining, through the waste

management committee that is out there, how we are going to progress from that.

From this department, again, specifically standard setting as to how the site

meets environmental standards.

MR. JOYCE: So, if I said publicly, eventually - which I will say - that

there is money from your department and the MMSB to reclaim the Wild Cove site -

MR. JACKMAN: No, your statement should be that it is going to develop,

from my perspective, from the entire Waste Management Strategy. We have

allocated $26 million this year that is going to go towards waste management.

Therefore, those funds to do that, to reclaim sites, will come from that. Now,

can the MMSB play a role in it? Maybe so, but that is to be determined. If it

is, the MMSB then will be just a partner within the entire Waste Management

Strategy.

MR. JOYCE: I agree with the process. I have no problem with the process

whatsoever. My only concern is when you have a mayor out there in Corner Brook

and a council who are saying: Okay, you cannot do it because it is going to cost

us $80 million, the taxpayers of Corner Brook - which is not true. It is just

absolutely not true what he is saying. Somehow you have to - myself, because I

am representing a lot of the rural communities. We have to put it back, now

listen, those statements are not true. Go back and let your committee decide on

it. It might be the Wild Cove site. It might be the best place. I am not saying

it is or isn't, but at least they should get the opportunity to do a proper

evaluation and not fearmonger people that it is going to cost us a back load of

money to do this, when it is just not true.

Minister Byrne is out publicly saying that to develop a new site the

government will supply the funds. He is on record three or four times. At the

Great Humber Joint Council he said that three weeks ago out in Corner Brook.

MR. JACKMAN: From our department, we develop the standards as to what the

site should be, the regulations and requirements around that. We develop the

standards for decommissioning of sites. The only thing I can really say at this

particular point is we have to just wait and see how the strategy rolls out.

CHAIR: Any further questions from the Committee members? None at all.

Before we call the subheads, I should have done this earlier but for the

record and for the benefit of the departmental officials, if the Committee

members could introduce themselves.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MR. BARRETT: Percy Barrett, MHA for Bellevue.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. BAKER: Jim Baker, MHA for Labrador West.

MS JOHNSON: Charlene Johnson, MHA for Trinity-Bay de Verde.

CHAIR: Harry Harding, MHA for Bonavista North.

Thank you very much.

Now I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 4.2.07 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall the subheads 1.1.01 to 4.2.07 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.07 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Environment and Conservation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of 2007-2008 for the Department of

Environment and Conservation carried without amendment?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Carried.

You have the minutes circulated from this morning's meeting, so I guess we

will have a motion now to adopt these minutes.

Moved by Ms Johnson, seconded -

MS JOHNSON: Mr. Chair, I am not sure if this is relevant or not but for -

I see Judy Foote, it was noted there who substituted for her and on that list

Wally Young's name is there. I just want to point out, he did substitute for

me this morning. I am not sure if it is necessary to point that out but I just

thought I would.

CHAIR: We can record those changes.

Motion to adopt the minutes as circulated, with the changes as pointed out.

MS JOHNSON: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Ms Johnson.

Second?

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Seconded by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would like to remind the members of the Committee that our next

meeting will be - there is a little change in the time tomorrow afternoon. It

will be immediately following the closure of the House, a little bit after 5:00

p.m., and we will be doing the Estimates for the Department of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

Before we finish, I would like to thank Minister Jackman and his officials,

Committee members and the staff of the House of Assembly.

On saying that, I would like a motion to adjourn.

MR. JOYCE: Motion.

CHAIR: Motion moved by Mr. Joyce.

This meeting now stands adjourned.

Thank you very much.

On motion, Committee adjourned.