May 25, 1993

RESOURCE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

MR. PENNEY: I call this meeting to order and I

welcome you to the first meeting of the Resource Estimates Committee to approve

the budget estimates for the Departments of Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture,

Mines and Energy, Tourism and Culture and Industry, Trade and Technology.

The first order of business I understand is to

elect a chairman of this Committee.

On motion of Dr. Hulan, seconded by Mr. Tulk, Mr.

Penney was elected chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN (PENNEY): I would now entertain a

motion to elect a vice-chairman for this Committee.

On motion of Mr. Tulk, seconded by Dr. Hulan, Mr.

Rick Woodford was elected vice-chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: As the chairman of your Committee

I would like to explain to you, particularly those of you who are here for the

first time with those kinds of proceedings, that the role of the chairman is

very similar to the role of the Speaker in the House of Assembly. It is to

maintain order and decorum but we have a much more informal atmosphere here than

we would have in the House of Assembly. The dress code is much more relaxed. It

is not necessary that you keep your jackets on during the proceedings. If you

wish you can bring your cup of coffee in here into the Chamber. As well, members

will not be required to be introduced by the district that they represent but

can be introduced by name.

The procedures that we will be following here

tonight, and I have discussed this with the vice-chairman, we will allow the

minister fifteen minutes to make his opening remarks. Now, if he strays beyond

that for a minute or so we will be lenient enough to accept that. We will allow

equal amount of time for the first member representing the Official Opposition

to respond. Now, I am assuming that would be Mr. Woodford, if need not be. Mr.

Woodford acknowledges that it will be him. We will allow him equal opportunity.

Then what we will do is allow members ten minutes each and we have agreed as

well, rather than allow this to become a ten minute speech by the member, than a

ten minute speech back by the minister, we would prefer to do it in a manner

that we have done it at some previous sittings of these committees. We do it

very similar to the way it is done in Question Period in the House of Assembly.

We will ask the member to keep his comments brief and to ask a single question,

allow the minister to reply to that question and when the ten minutes are up we

will go on to another member but we will allow you as much opportunity as you

need. So, the fact that your ten minutes are up does not mean that you will not

get another opportunity. We will continue on as long as we need to. I will ask

the cooperation of all members in assuring that that procedure is followed.

Tonight we will be dealing with the estimates of

the Department of Tourism and Culture and it is my pleasure to welcome to this

gathering the minister responsible for that department, the hon. James Walsh.

I would now like to introduce to you the members of

our Committee, my name is Melvin Penney, I will be chairing the Committee and I

represent the District of Lewisporte; on my left is Rick Woodford, the Member

for Humber Valley and our Vice-Chairman; Dr. Bud Hulan the Liberal Member for

St. George's; Mr. Paul Shelley, the Progressive Conservative Member for Baie

Verte - White Bay; Mr. Beaton Tulk the Liberal Member for Fogo; Mr. Don Whelan

the Liberal Member for Harbour Main. There is another member of the Committee

who is not yet here. I expect Mr. Ed Byrne the PC Member for Kilbride will be

joining us shortly.

I would also at this time like to introduce to you

the table officer for this evening, Elizabeth Murphy.

I will ask the minister now to introduce his

officials, to introduce them by name and by the title that they hold within his

department.

MR. WALSH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It is indeed a pleasure for me to be here tonight

to deal with the estimates of our department and by way of introduction, to my

left is Bob Jenkins, deputy minister of our department; Rick, you can go ahead

and introduce yourself and then we will go to the back row and let people do

their own.

Rick Hayward, Director of Finance and General

Operations.

Don Hustins, Director of Provincial Parks.

Jim Hancock, Director of Wildlife.

Kay Mullins, Director Human Resources.

Sid Blundon, assistant deputy minister of Tourism

and Craft Development.

Bill Frost, assistant deputy minister of Cultural

Affairs, Historic Resources and Provincial Archives.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

I would like to remind everybody here tonight that

the proceedings for this evening are being recorded by Hansard, and I would ask

everybody to speak directly into the microphone and I would also ask the

ministers' officials if they would introduce themselves each time that they

speak.

It is a little bit different from normal

proceedings of the House of Assembly where everybody is assigned a particular

seat, and the Hansard officers would know exactly who is in which seat, so

before we speak I would ask that you introduce yourself for convenience, and

also would remind the members of the Committee that questions can be addressed

only to the minister. The minister's officials can respond to the question only

if requested by the minister to do so, and remind them as well that they cannot

speak to any area of policy. It must be just the questions or answers dealing

with fact.

Having said all of that I will now ask the minister

to make his opening remarks.

MR. WALSH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want first off to say that it is a pleasure for

me to be here this evening on behalf of the Department of Tourism and Culture, a

new department which was formed in July of last year, and of which for the last

nine months I have had the privilege and pleasure of being the minister.

You have already met the officials and I want to

thank all of them for being here with me this evening, but also the two

directors who are here tonight, Bob Winsor was going through my mind, and who is

the assistant deputy minister, but he is out of the Province on behalf of the

department so directors Jim and Don agreed to come along this evening as well.

I think, just for a basic background we should look

at government's purpose in forming this new department, which was really to give

the emphasis for which we have been looking for a long time in this Province, in

terms of promoting the richness of our Province, both in its scenic values, our

historical resources, but also in terms of the cultural background of our

Province as well, and I think that the new department is without a doubt, an

opportunity to cover off those things.

The estimates of course, this evening with which we

will be dealing, will be covering the department in its entirety and I thought

just for a brief moment I might touch on what the department itself consists of.

Every department has its own breakout I suppose, but ours being a new one, I

just thought I would touch on some of the aspects for which the Department of

Tourism and Culture is responsible, in particular, there are a number of items

that include tourism in general, also responsible for the crafts or the cottage

industries in our Province, and on the cultural side of course, there are

historic resources, museums and archives, and we have the parks and wildlife and

a number of other divisions that break out from there.

Sid Blundon has already introduced himself and, of

course, he is assistant deputy minister and is responsible for tourism and craft

development. Bob Winsor, as I said, who is out of the Province is responsible

for parks and wildlife. Bill Frost who most of you know from his past

involvement with culture and historic resources retains that position with us.

These are the three positions really that are the breakout of what our

department consists of. Of course we also have, as most departments would, a

director of human resources and financial administration, and we have a director

of public relations, and all of those individuals report directly to the deputy

minister, Bob Jenkins.

As opposed to going through what the department

consists of in terms of a break out of each of the divisions I think most of

you, having been familiar with the House and also familiar with the activities

of the various branches over the past number of years, will have a fairly

concise background as to what it is we are looking to do in the Province within

the department. Like I said it has only been nine months but it has been nine

months of a tremendous amount of activity in terms of formulating and pulling

together this new department. Also, over the last nine months we have really set

out to put a mark on the Province for the department and we have done that in as

positive a way as we possibly can. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to utilize the

time for the sake of using the time. That is just an overview of what the

department is and I will endeavour to answer whatever questions are put forward

tonight. I will say immediately that should there be something that technically

we do not have the information in front of us, rather than pretend that we know,

I will not play with the numbers. If there is something you are looking for that

we do not have the full background on I make a commitment that we will get that

information for you. I will on occasion turn to my officials and ask for their

guidance in some of the things you may wish to discuss tonight.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity for the

opening remarks and I will go back to you for your decision as to where to go

from here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Before turning it over to Mr. Woodford for his

fifteen minutes I would like to invite the members of the media to join us here

on the Chamber floor. If it would be more convenient for them they are more than

welcome to come down and sit in one of the member's chairs.

I now turn it over to Rick Woodford for his fifteen

minute statement, if he wishes to use that length of time.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. WOODFORD: I can remember a time when the

hon. member did not mind taking up three hours of the estimates, I can assure

him.

Mr. Minister, going back to the Budget 1993 I would

like to touch on three issues pertaining to tourism and culture, albeit

different headings in your department. First, as announced in the March 18

Budget the net operating cost of the Province's Arts and Cultures Centres would

be reduced. I just forget the exact figure of the reduction on that now, if any,

in the actual expenditure, the actual heading, or the vote. Without getting into

specific figures could you give me some information as to what has been done

with regard to Arts and Culture Centres, and if not what are you going to do?

I will just go back and forth like that and you can

answer now.

MR. WALSH: I guess in basic theory what we've

looked at doing in terms of the Arts and Culture Centres is first and foremost

we've tried to rationalize them as much as we possibly can in terms of once and

for all identifying not just the role of the Arts and Culture Centres in our

Province, because the government feels very strongly and is very much committed

to the development of culture in our Province for its own sake. Sometimes when

you try to rationalize, or when you use the term rationalizing what the Arts and

Culture Centres are all about, the first thought that comes is: oh, look out,

here comes change.

In some cases that may be true. But after

twenty-five years of following a very basic pattern that former premier Joseph

R. Smallwood laid out for the Centres, we felt it was time for us to stand back

and take a good hard look at where we are and where we're going. That's exactly

what we want to do. Some of the areas for example that we have held the line on

for over four years now are the rentals themselves. When you look at the rentals

for the Arts and Culture Centres they have not been that high. We're getting

somewhere in the neighbourhood of $250,000 a year in terms of rentals.

We're also looking at the kinds of activities that

we're involved in in terms of the promotion of culture. I think in our attempt

to rationalize that we're also trying to look at ways that we can fill the

stages more often, and in particular fill those stages more often with our own

local grown talent. In doing that we've been able to, for example, with various

productions that come in from the mainland, to perform on our stages, we have

reduced in terms of the cost of some of the productions that are coming in by

ensuring that local Newfoundland performers can participate with whatever

production is coming to town.

That doesn't mean when the Royal Winnipeg Ballet

comes that we can inject someone into that production. That's not possible. What

we can do is to take someone who has an expertise, or trying to develop an

expertise in stage production, that we can take those people and make them a

part of what's happening there as a learning experience. So we've been doing

some of those things as well.

The other thing that we have to do is that we also

have to look at the kinds of productions that are coming into the Province. If

there's anywhere that we have affected our costing this year it probably will be

on imported productions, and that's where you'll see some of our cutbacks. We're

looking to promote more of our home grown talent on the stages of our Arts and

Culture Centres, and that's what we're attempting to do.

MR. WOODFORD: So your cutbacks this year - I

notice in Grants and Subsidies under Culture your 3.1.01.10, on page 195. Grants

and Subsidies are cut back $96,600 in the estimates for 1993-1994. Is that money

directed to Arts and Culture Centres in the Province?

MR. WALSH: No. That really covers the various

groups and organizations in the Province that the department has supported over

a number of years. Although administered through the cultural affairs division,

that is in actual fact the funds that we would give to various groups across

Newfoundland in order for them to carry out their own activities.

MR. WOODFORD: But yet the heading says:

"...administrative and technical support for the programming activities of the

Province's Arts and Culture Centres."

MR. WALSH: Let me just -

MR. WOODFORD: Why would they differ?

MR. WALSH: Somewhere we had to put the grants

and subsidies for the various groups that we're trying to support and help

throughout the Province. I guess from a departmental position that's pretty well

where it ended up, being administered by the assistant deputy minister and also

by the director of cultural affairs, who would be very much involved in it as

well. Because of that I guess somewhere we had to do the grouping and for

departmental purposes that's where the grouping fit.

MR. WOODFORD: I don't mean to be obnoxious or

to try to be... but usually the headings under your votes are different when it

comes to grants and subsidies, as is indicative under Newfoundland and Labrador

Arts Council, under the Craft Council, under the Travel Generators, and so on.

Yet under the heading of Arts and Culture Centres, the $96,600 I don't think

includes grants and subsidies for all the groups in the Province. My reading of

the estimates would read that that's primarily a cut for Arts and Culture

Centres alone. If not, then the grants and subsidies under the Public Libraries

Board, under the Travel Generators for Marble Mountain, under Tourist

Facilities, under the Arts Council, why would they be separated?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: That's right.

MR. WALSH: These are more general grants. A lot

of them are also grants that are directly, in some cases, tied to funding

mechanisms from the federal government. Not all of them, but some of them are.

They're tied to interprovincial and some other national agencies that are

involved in some way, shape or form.

I tend to agree with you that maybe they should

have all been lumped in one particular heading. But under the Arts and Culture

Centres heading, if you look at it, it says: "Appropriations provide for the

development and organization of cultural programs, administrative and technical

support for the programming activities of the Province's Arts and Culture

Centres." In most cases, those that we believe are directly related to or tied

to those. In those areas, as you said, there are the publishers grants, and the

LSPU Hall, for example, and Them Days magazine. Those are the ones that are

grouped in that particular category.

MR. WOODFORD: That's what I'm getting at. It

has nothing to do with the other headings in this particular estimate. That's

what I'm getting at with regards to Arts and Culture. So there is another part

of the Culture grants and subsidies included in that particular heading other

than Arts and Culture Centres.

MR. WALSH: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: But a part of that is what you're

talking about.

MR. WALSH: This is pretty well the cultural

side of the Arts Centres.

MR. WOODFORD: Do you have a breakdown of the

actual cut to the Arts and Culture Centres themselves?

MR. WALSH: The Centres themselves?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. Or does that include any of

it?

MR. WALSH: When you say a breakdown, what in

particular?

MR. WOODFORD: Anything that's going to the

Centre itself. Say for instance - or would it come under Purchased Services, or

something like that? I guess it probably could come under that.

MR. WALSH: Under 3.1.01, that's pretty well the

breakout for the Centres themselves and their operations.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: That would be the heading for that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: We haven't broken them out into six

different Centres. They're brought together under a single administration.

MR. WOODFORD: Under your Strategic Economic

Plan you say, and I quote: transfer administration and control of Arts and

Culture Centres to appropriate regional or community organizations. What steps

have been taken for the transfer of those properties, and if not, when will you

be taking some steps to do so?

MR. WALSH: In actual fact, in terms of the

direction we have taken, what we've been able to do to date is spend some

preliminary time with various communities in the Province that themselves have

expressed an interest. What we have done is we've held preliminary meetings with

a number of mayors of a couple of towns that are interested. We've also met with

one group who have a specific interest in one of the Centres for their own

purposes, in terms of how they see their own future. We probably would have been

a little further along but we got interrupted there in April with some other

activities that we were all involved in.

We will now go back to beginning a discussion

period with the various groups that are interested. We are beginning in, I

guess, two particular areas of the Province where an interest has been expressed

to us. That will be the beginning of the process of the devolution of the Arts

and Culture Centres to community based. Particularly, broad based organizations

not any one organization will have an opportunity to control an Arts and

Cultural Centre. We are looking for people who are made up of the towns

themselves and the neighbouring towns in some cases but also we are looking to

involve various groups who have a vested interest across the Province. It could

be the Rotary Club because of the Rotary Music Festival that takes place in

various centres or groups like that. We want to build on that with them.

I believe that as a department we should not be

involved in the physical operation of the properties rather we should be

involved in guaranteeing that we are one of the major tenants of those

properties. It is not our intention to reduce the number of performances that

would be shown on these stages, just the opposite. We believe that by

redirecting our energies we can fill the stages that much more but more

importantly the Centres themselves have an opportunity to be utilized at a much

greater level, at a community level. In particular, I refer to some very good

high school groups that are not only performing their normal concerts but some

very good drama groups that are not able to access the Centres the way they

would like. Instead they have to perform their various works in a school

auditorium. We think that we can get greater utilization of the properties in

this way than under the current system.

MR. WOODFORD: So, what you are saying then

basically is that, in a short while Arts and Culture Centres across the Province

will be divested by the provincial government one way or the other.

MR. WALSH: Where it is practical and where it

is feasible, yes, that is the intention. The strategic economic plan is very

forthright, it says the devolution of the Arts and Culture Centres but we want

to ensure that the Centres themselves are going to be able to survive

afterwards. We want to ensure also that the facilities are going to receive the

maximum use and that is not what they are doing now. What we are finding now is

just the opposite. We are finding that the season is getting shorter every year

and that people we wish to access the stage are finding it more difficult to do

so. I think if the Centres themselves were community based and community - they

are community based mind you, if they are community driven they have a much

greater opportunity of seeing maximum utilization which is really what they were

designed for in the first place.

MR. WOODFORD: My fifteen minutes is up there

now.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford has used his fifteen

minutes. I appreciate the fact that he was willing to relinquish without any

admonition from the Chair. The first member of our Committee that has shown an

indication that he wishes to jump right into the questioning or to the debate is

Mr. Tulk. So, I now turn it over to Mr. Tulk for the next ten minutes.

MR. TULK: I will not need ten minutes, Mr.

Chairman. I just want to, first of all, congratulate the minister and the

government on establishing the new Department of Tourism and Culture. I think it

was one of the things that was laid out in the strategic economic plan for the

Province. I believe that was in July 1992 and I think it was practically done

immediately -

MR. WALSH: - within thirty days.

MR. TULK: - within thirty days. So, it shows

the kind of interest that the government does have, the Cabinet and the

government as a whole, does have in the tourism industry in the Province and I

think they are to be commended for that. I noticed too that if you read through

the recommendations that are put in place and if you follow public

pronouncements in the Province, you will see that most of the recommendations in

some way or other that is in the strategic economic plan are being acted upon in

some fashion. Again, the minister is to be commended for that and obviously he

is earning the somewhat modest salary he is being paid. I would like to, as I

said, congratulate him on the effort he has put in, and that his officials have

put into bringing about many of those recommendations or at least getting a

start on them.

There are a couple I am not familiar with and one

is of particular interest. It is of particular interest from my own district's

point of view, and that is the use of our salmon rivers as a recreational

facility and the advantages of employment that can bring to us. I would like the

minister to comment upon that aspect of tourism in the Province, just what

benefit he sees in the future and not what it is now. I do not think many people

in this Province are sure at this point exactly what is going to happen to the

salmon rivers in the Province as a source of recreational facilities, and indeed

as a source of revenue for the Province. I would like for him to comment on

where he sees that going. The other thing is to perhaps give us some update on

what is happening with the John Cabot 500th Anniversary Corporation.

MR. WALSH: First of all I want to thank the

Member for Fogo for his kind words.

MR. TULK: The truest words that ever came out

of my mouth.

MR. WALSH: I appreciate they were for me.

When you look at the strategic economic plan as was

announced by the Premier in June of last year and less than thirty days after

the setting forth of the document, which is a living document, because as the

Member for Fogo said virtually every item in that document is being worked on in

some shape or form. Twenty-two of the 134 items in the strategic economic plan

are very specific to the Department of Tourism and Culture, in particular when

he mentioned the salmonoid enhancement program that is taking place.

Our department is responsible for approximately $1

million of the $21 million that has been announced and it is our intention to

work very closely with the Department of Fisheries, locally and the federal

government as well, to ensure that our rivers are brought back to life and that

is the intention. We are working very closely with other groups in the Province

as well who have a special interest in ensuring that the salmon stocks are

brought back, and also in some cases that the trout stocks themselves are

brought back as well.

In terms of what it is that our department is

doing, well the first thing we have to do for the first two years - and we pick

two years not as an arbitrary number but as a realistic date in order to give us

a true assessment of what it is and what kind of condition the rivers are in. I

must say when I look at the buy-back program by the federal government,

virtually 80 per cent of people on the island portion have sold their licenses

back to the federal government, and very unique, in Labrador where the pressure

to resell your license back to the federal government was somewhat limited, some

40 per cent of the people there have taken advantage of it, and we are above

that now. What we are finding is that already the rivers are starting to come

back to life.

AN HON. MEMBER: Gander River, for example.

(Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: There was somewhere around 22,000

last year and what we are seeing there more than anything will be that five

years from now virtually all of our rivers should be back to being very strong,

but that is part of the assessment that we have to do. When we find a river like

the Gander River that is doing exceptionally well we feel real good about that

because we know that the direction we are taking is a good, solid, and strong

one. Then there are other rivers that are not coming back as well as they should

and those are the rivers that over the two year study period and assessment

period will give us an opportunity to find out what we will have to do in terms

of making sure that those rivers are brought back to life. That is where the

enhancement program will come into its own, in the latter years of the

agreement, so the $21.4 million that has come to us via a federal/provincial

agreement, and I have to give full credit to the federal government for their

contribution to this program. It is extremely important to us as a Province, and

extremely important to us in terms of developing our tourism industry. I don't

just mean those who are coming from outside the Province. I mean those in the

Province who are moving either from St. John's out to Gander to fish for a

weekend or -

MR. TULK: Gander Bay. Not Gander.

MR. WALSH: - or Gander Bay, or going on to

other places, and staying in the 'bed and breakfasts' and enjoying the

hospitality that they would receive there. It's very important to us, and I must

say I'm really pleased with what we're seeing to date.

I also want to give to our people in our Wildlife

branch, I really have to sing their praises here. Because they've been very much

involved in what we're attempting to do and they themselves have come forward

with ideas that we think will even protect the salmon in years to come. Our

conservation program is one that we're very proud of. For the first time ever we

find that our officials are working very closely with federal officials, and

able to break down barriers for cross jurisdiction. Those are the kinds of

things that are unfolding very nicely in this Province. I think we're going to

be very proud of what we can see.

It'll all fit very comfortably of course in a full

recreational fishery strategy that we'll see unfolding in the coming months as

well. I guess we're almost back from extinction, if that's the kind of word to

use. But the numbers that you quoted yourself, going from 8,000 up to 22,000 in

little better than a year, is something that we now know we're going in the

right direction. Five years from now we'll have a tremendous recreational

fishery that we can draw upon. Not only for people who live in this Province,

but as a tremendous source of revenue generating, in terms of bringing funds in

from around the world. I think that the Atlantic Salmon is probably the one that

people would want to participate in terms of a trophy fish. We used to have

them, and I think this salmon enhancement program will bring them back to us.

You also mentioned the Cabot 500. Cabot 500, of

course, is going to be - the John Cabot 500 Corporation is in place. We've just

rounded out the entire board of directors -

MR. TULK: So that's done already.

MR. WALSH: Yes. The Corporation is in place,

the board of directors is in place. We've even stretched outside the board to

involve what one might think are remote communities, but people who are knocking

at our door wanting to be involved. When I say communities I'm talking about

places like Venice, Italy. The Columbo Caboto 500 Committee. We tend to forget

that John Cabot is really Giovanni Caboto, a merchant of Venice. We tend to

think of our connection with Bristol and where our forefathers came from in

terms of England, Ireland and Scotland. Yet the people of Venice and the people

of Italy want very much to be a part of what we're doing as well. So we've even

gone that far. We have an ex officio member who's been appointed from the

Canadian Columbo Caboto 500 Committee. But where are we with it?

The Corporation is up and running. They have a

phone number, I believe it's 754-1997. They have a staff in place. We've just,

in association with the federal government, had a $200,000 consultant's study

started, so that we can look at the kinds of activities that we could be

involved in over the coming years to prepare for it. We also look at the fact

that our own department put in $100,000 this year, separate from the funds for

the study, and that was matched by ACOA, so that they now have some operating

money so that the committee can carry out their duties. We're feeling very

comfortable with the kinds of activities that they're involved in.

The first thing they have to do, of course, is to

identify the kinds of things that we want to do in the Province. We're not

looking for it to be another Soiree '88 where we're going to have little

festivals and things all over. This is much larger than that. There's a

corporation in Bristol, the honorary chairman being Prince Philip. Prince Philip

is I think the honorary chairman, and Bill Frost might correct me if I'm wrong

there -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: He is - and the intention is to

build a Matthew and sail it from Bristol to here, and they intend to be very

involved in that and are working very closely with us. Our officials have been

back and forth to Bristol to prepare with them the kinds of activities in which

we can be involved. This is, without a doubt, going to be an international event

and we intend to build it that way. We have been moving cautiously but surely in

the kinds of activities that we are carrying out and I can say that 1997,

without a doubt will be in the John Cabot Corporation and the plans will be a

pinnacle for what is going to happen in this Province.

We are very excited about it; 1997 is not that far

away, but I think when the study is finished -

MR. TULK: We will be just starting our next

term of office?

MR. WALSH: In actual fact, we will, and with

any luck I may even still be the minister. As I was saying, that is where we are

with it and we are very, very pleased with it and the tourism impact in itself

will be international in scope.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I just have one more

question -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am going to have to turn it

over to one of the other members of the Committee, but we will get back to you.

MR. TULK: Okay, fantastic!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, I want to say how

glad I am to be on this particular Committee because being a newly elected

member, tourism just happens to be one of the ones that I believe is the

untapped resource in Newfoundland. I do not thing we are even close to where we

should be when it comes to tourism, but having said that, I am just going to

bring in one specific thing now to light I guess, and that is the provincial

parks.

Now I know recently there has been some private

investment into provincial parks and I guess the whole reason being to make them

more attractive to people. For example, a couple of local parks I know of, some

private people who are moving in there to set up concession stands, pedal boats,

this type of thing. I want to know where you see provincial parks in the future

as it relates to making them more attractive to people so that Newfoundlanders

stay home and stay in their own parks as opposed to going outside.

For example, the hook-ups for big trailers, for the

larger machines, this type of thing and the concessions that attract kids going

into parks and that type of thing, as opposed to going into a gravel pit, going

into our provincial parks, so I want to see where it is heading in that

direction because I am for that. As a matter of fact, I have talked to some

people who are interested in doing that type of thing and I think it is a good

idea and I want to know how far it is going to expand and what you see in the

future for it?

MR. WALSH: Well first of all, allow me to thank

the member for his question but also to agree with him that if there is any

resource in this Province that has been untapped and now has an opportunity,

because of the focus of a new department, to really tap into and develop a

strong base for industry and for people in our Province.

A lot of people tend to forget and probably do not

realize, so maybe forget is not the word, but some 12,000 people are involved in

the tourism hospitality industry in this Province, and generated some $440

million for our Province last year, so there is a very strong base there for us

to build on and that is what the intention of this department is. If we can

build on that even by $20 million a year or $25 million a year, and I think we

can, you know, that puts us at about a $700 million industry in about ten years

and that is what we want to do, and so I share your optimism in terms of what

tourism can do for this Province, and it is our intention to make sure that we

can bring that about by working on so many fronts and so many directions.

I think particularly you mentioned the parks. There

is a task force in place at the present time that is doing a full review of the

parks in the Province so that we can see exactly where we are, and again to look

at where we can go with the parks, and I do not want to try to assume what that

task force is going to say to us, but once the report is released, it will be

available automatically to all members of the House of Assembly and we will take

our direction from there and go on.

I will say to you that you're absolutely right. For

many years the excuse was that we wanted to maintain the parks in our Province

in I guess a pristine or natural state. I believe for a long time that was

probably a good excuse, because we never had the money to do anything, so when

you don't have the money to do it, give a reason why they should stay the same.

We now have some, I thought five, but we now have six parks in our Province that

have what we call full comfort stations. That's the beginning of what we want to

do. We've tried to pick parks in terms of the basic development, in terms of the

ones that strategically can relate to the tourists as they travel through the

Province, coming in from outside, and our own demographics internally. Barachois

Park, Dildo, Notre Dame, Butterpot, Grand Codroy and Pistolet Bay all now have

comfort stations in place. We've got an additional, some $200,000 allocated for

further park rehabilitation this year and trying to bring them up to that

standard.

We may see more involvement by the private sector

in the parks with the kinds of activities that you're talking about. I don't

believe we're going to see that in all parks. There are some parks I think that

we will want to maintain and to isolate from that kind of activity, but for

their own reasons. Sand Banks is the one that comes to mind. It's a very natural

area mostly made up of sand dunes. I think it's also the home of our piping

plover as well, and for those kinds of reasons we're not interested in seeing

that kind of development in a park like that.

I say to you that although there are many parks

that we will see, I guess for want of another term, free enterprise moving into

more and more, there are some that we will want to maintain as they are today.

I'm not sure of the exact number of parks. Don, how many do we have in total?

MR. HUSTINS: The number of provincial parks we

have is seventy-five and we have another twenty or thereabouts wilderness and

ecological reserves.

MR. WALSH: There are some seventy-five parks

altogether.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Can I go again?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: Like you say, as far as $200,000

is it, you have for this year, to basically upgrade parks? I think the private

sector investment would be a good idea. Of course, with rules in place to make

sure it does not turn it into a commercial state but is still kept in its

natural state.

Having said that, just commenting on that, I wanted

to comment on one other thing with that. I have to use my own district for an

example, okay, but I'm sure it relates to other districts, where you have parks

off the Trans-Canada. We have a beautiful park on the Baie Verte Peninsula.

During my election speech, actually, I even made a note of tourism. Because I

said the same thing. I really believe that it's the untapped resource in our

Province, especially on my peninsula, because it's beautiful down there, with

lots of good fishing, there's good hunting, these types of things.

Tourism on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I summed it up

by saying that at the Trans-Canada there's a sign that says: Baie Verte, 63

kilometres. That's all. Who's going to go down into that area? So the signage on

the highways as relating to parks and promoting things, I mean, somebody's just

not going to drive down sixty-three kilometres because they see a sign that

says: provincial park. They'll know what's in it. I know some of these brochures

and that are at different places, but I'm talking about things that you see. A

lot of people don't go and look through these brochures and look up things.

They're travelling along in their big machines on a nice sunny day and they

decide they're going to break into a part of the Province.

I just think it would more promotional to have

things on the highway that are going to attract people. I really think that's

important, I know it is for me. When I go travelling - by the way I'm one of

those people, I do take the odd trip out of the Province. But I vacation - I'm a

believer in a nice stream, a fly rod, and this type of thing. That's paradise to

me. I'm sure it is to a lot of people. That promotion, I think we're really

missing out along the Trans-Canada in promoting our places that are off the

Trans-Canada.

MR. WALSH: You're absolutely right. I have to

say to you that I had the privilege two years ago of chairing a committee that

toured the Province to review the state of - not only highway signage in terms

of directional but also in terms of being able to identify specific areas and

specific routes across the Province. Ironically, some twelve months later I had

the privilege of bringing that same paper to government for them to implement

and a brand new highway signage policy has now been accepted and adopted by the

Province. That was another item under the strategic economic plan that we were

to implement and to make sure that we did that. The new highway signage policy

will allow a couple of things; one it will allow the accommodations industry to

promote themselves on a highway. It will also allow specific attractions to do

the same thing. Now, it will not and it has no intention of allowing every car

dealer in North America to advertise or every beverage company to do it, that is

not the intention. It is simply for directional purposes.

The other thing that we are doing in terms of our

marketing strategy for the Province is that we are working out and working on

themed touring routes. These are the kinds of things that we are looking to do.

Based around those themed touring routes, which will be promoted on the

highways, there will be reasons for you to leave the highway to go to specific

destinations that we will allow now to be promoted on the Trans-Canada Highway

to say to you there is a reason if you are travelling west, to turn left and go

down the Baie Verte. There is a reason to go there and you are absolutely right,

there is a tremendous country down there that we should be opening up. I think

in terms of the kinds of changes that we made in the highway signage policy and

a constituent of yours by the name of Bart Philpott, has worked ten years or

more to try to make some changes in terms of what was needed, in terms of

highway signage for directional purposes but also to attract people to get off

that main route. We will see, I think, if not this year we will in the next two

years, you will see a tremendous change in what we are doing on the highways and

themed touring routes is going to be one of the most important things that we

do.

MR. SHELLEY: When is that policy supposed to

come into -

MR. WALSH: The policy has been accepted by

government in terms of highway signage and the regulations are now being

drafted. There are three departments involved. The Department of Tourism and

Culture was the lead department in terms of pulling it all together. We now have

to deal of course with Work, Services and Transportation in terms of highways

and also Municipal and Provincial Affairs because in a lot of cases the highway

signage affects municipalities as well. So, collectively the three of us have

been now putting the finishing touches to regulations. I would anticipate that

albeit not for this particular Summer but by next Fall we will have a good

highway signage policy with all the regulations in place for the following year.

That is very important. But even more important than that, exactly as you said

yourself, is that we need to give people reasons to get off the highway and that

is what we are doing now with themed touring routes for the various peninsulas

that exist in our Province and your area will not be overlooked. It is one of

the ones that we have -

MR. SHELLEY: I brought it up as my area but I

would also like for Bonavista and -

MR. WALSH: Oh, I realize that but I am saying

your area when I mention peninsula's, the Bonavista Peninsula, the Burin

Peninsula, the Southern Shore here, those are the ones that we want to get

people into. The longer they stay with us and the further we get them off the

highway, the more money they will actually leave in our Province and that is

very important to us. They miss so much, as you would anywhere, by just

travelling down that highway, you miss so much. We want to get them off the

highways and the themed touring routes are going to do that for us.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, I will be watching for

that.

MR. WALSH: Okay. If you want some further

information on it, I am sure that Sid Blundon might be able to pull some more

details on the themed touring routes for you and we can certainly make that

available to you.

I have just been told Paul, that the study is being

called for within a month, on the themed touring routes. So, we will certainly

keep you advised on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bud Hulan.

DR. HULAN: Mr. Chairman, like my hon. colleague

to my left, I would like to say that I am very pleased to be on this Committee

because, as most, if not all of you in the room know, I have a keen interest in

a number of resource areas.

Before I present my question to the minister I

would also be remiss if I did not pass on my feelings that I thought the

government had to be applauded in recognizing the importance of culture and

tourism in this Province by giving it a separate portfolio. I think that was a

very important move and a move probably that was long overdue. I also, Mr.

Minister, would like to congratulate you on how you have handled and nurtured

this new department over the last nine months. From what I see it's going well

and I certainly commend you on that.

I have a couple of questions, Mr. Minister. Unlike

my hon. colleague to my left I won't be quite as modest. I'll simply tell you

that some of them are coming from my interest in my own district, because they

directly impact on the beautiful district of St. George's.

The first one is, having spent some time away from

this Province, quite a number of years, I have had the criticism, and it is

still rightly offered, by tourists coming to this Province, that they can't find

a place to stay. In fact, I can remind the Committee that if you get off the

ferry in Port aux Basques, with the exception of one bed and breakfast place on

the highway at Coal Brook, just outside of South Branch, you will then travel to

Corner Brook, a total of about, from that point, 110 miles before you find

another place to stay.

I was going through the line items in the estimates

here and I'm just trying to find where the line item is that covers bed and

breakfast establishments. The reason I ask this is I have a number of

constituents that have been told by members of your department, sir, that there

will be and there is no additional money for bed and breakfast operations this

coming year. Even expansion, let alone putting into new operations. I would like

a comment on that, sir.

MR. WALSH: First off, thank you for your kind

words with respect to the department and what we've been able to accomplish over

the last nine months. I have to say that I believe it's been ten years and nine

months in my own particular case, not in terms of the department. But I've had a

wonderful opportunity of having been so much a part of the tourism and

hospitality industry in Newfoundland for the last fifteen years that these last

nine months almost seem - well, I spent the first three months of the last nine

months buying up old speeches I made of what government should do and trying to

pull them back, so my friends wouldn't remember them. But they did and

collectively we've been able to work on a lot of things.

When you talk in terms of your own district, we

tend to forget that the capital of the West Coast was actually Sandy Point at

one time. I mean, the Bishop of St. George's lived there before he found reason

to move into the City of Corner Brook. But that was the capital of the West

Coast, and we should not forget that. That's why it's still known as the

Archdiocese of St. George's. I don't think they've changed that, and that's

where it emanates from.

In terms of the bed and breakfast, in terms of what

our department could do in the way of funding and grants, in actual fact the

most that we have ever done in terms of funding was, one, to be available to

help people in terms of the directions that they could go. I'm not aware of any

funds ever being available in the department specifically for.... Now, where the

confusion comes in a little bit is, in the old Department of Development, which

Tourism was a component of, there was also a branch called Enterprise

Newfoundland and Labrador. When someone would go to the Department of

Development, the Tourism branch, looking for information, a lot of cases that

may have been transferred over to the Development side, and then on to their

other branch, known as Enterprise Newfoundland.

A different case in terms of ourselves. What we're

doing is we don't have the funds available. Sometimes the question causes an

improper answer. The question sometimes is: Look, I am looking to open up

something and I understand you fellows used to give out money for it and I want

money for this. We say: well, we are not involved in that anymore. We never were

directly involved in the funding. What we have done is set up regional offices

across Newfoundland that have our tourism people living right in the regions so

that they can make the physical visits to sites and operations. I think of one

in your district of Stephenville Crossing that our officials have been working

with for the past number of months. An operation there who are looking to

upgrade their facilities and we have been working very closely with them, with

ACOA, with ENL and others, helping to pull the package together. That is what we

do most. We tend to operate as the catalyst to help direct people where they can

find the kind of funds that they are looking for. In most cases ACOA and others

have not been looking, I will not say favourably upon bed and breakfasts, they

intend to weigh each proposal on its own merits. Some people are looking just

simply to upgrade their own properties, probably more for their private use than

they are for the commercial use but I have found that there is a richness of

heritage in properties in so many places across the Province that very little

has to be done with them financially, to bring them up to scratch for two or

three rooms service.

In terms of funding, as I said to you, the most we

have been able to do with funding is to direct people as to where they could go.

We provide the professional advice and the analysis, we provide the support that

they would need in preparing their applications to make sure that they do not

have to be chasing red tape all over the place. We have been trying to cut

through that for them and always we are there in terms of the marketing, the

advertising and the actual promotion for those facilities. So if you know of a

particular case where the translation or the question or the answer may have

been a little different, I am sure that we would be more than interested in

hearing from them and working with them.

I will say to you that in my previous life, some

six years ago or seven years ago, I was extremely active in bringing about an

actual bed and breakfast industry in our Province and the formation of the Bed

and Breakfast Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. I understand there are

some 250 members in that organization now and still growing. We went out and

actively pursued people and wanted to bring them together because we knew that,

not only were the numbers important but the fact that they would be working

together was important. It allowed them to get greater discounts when they

wanted to purchase things, it allowed them to have a stronger voice when they

were trying to make representations either to municipalities, provincial or

federal governments and I am very proud to say that there are some 250 plus

members in that association right now and they still grow. So if we can help and

if you know of someone that we may have crossed wires on, let us know.

DR. HULAN: My comments of course are relating,

as a specific example, my own District of St. George's but I am sure they are

applicable Province-wide.

Another question I have for you, sir, is on the

salmon enhancement program. As you know that has a direct impact on the district

of St. George's and it's many, many beautiful salmon fishing rivers. With regard

to the custodian and the duration that these people are hired for the year, is

that going to be changed this coming year? Maybe one of your officials - because

certainly last year it was - the salmon are going into the pool's now - they are

in the pool's now and they should be cared for right up into November on the

Southwest Coast of the Island because the water is still warm and the fish are

still around. I know that was a concern by many in the district last year and I

would like to raise the issue here because it means dollars of course, if you

are going to keep the custodians on longer, and that is what we are talking

about here right now, the dollars for the operation of the department.

Before you answer that question I want to make one

other comment on this salmon enhancement program. There is a problem starting on

the West Coast of Newfoundland, I viewed it this past weekend, seals. There are

so many along the coast here now swimming up the rivers as far as eighteen miles

upstream and going into the salmon pools and they are really, really having a

feast. It is something that your officials should be aware of. In South Branch

last weekend, which is roughly seventeen miles from the mouth of the Codroy

River, I saw seals in a salmon pool.

MR. WALSH: That is the poacher that we were not

expecting.

DR. HULAN: That is right.

MR. WALSH: To answer your first question I can

say to you that the department is looking very strongly at an expanded year this

year and, I think, some ten officials who would normally come back in the Fall

of the year we are hoping to bring them back earlier this year. We are hoping to

do that in order to again protect the stocks, so in terms of people working in

the area we are looking for the fact that we think there will be a longer period

of time and we will be working much closer with DFO in terms of cross

jurisdictions to make sure that we are not at odds with each other trying to

enforce particular rules on a federal or provincial level, but we are actually

working together to enforce rules on both levels. We are finding that is going

to work very well for us so for that reason we think our rivers this year will

be protected better than they have ever been.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Hulan, I am going to have to

turn it over to another member of the Committee but we will get back to you.

Because the Committee has been somewhat out of balance since Mr. Byrne did not

arrive I am going to turn it over to Mr. Woodford for the next ten minute

segment so that we can establish a government/opposition balance, and in the

interest of being fair.

Mr. Woodford.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

If people from the other side do not want to attend

that is not my problem, that is theirs. I will do it for Mr. Woodford but I am

not willing for us to give up time for people who are not in attendance, unless

they have some valid reason for not being here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have recognized Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The

minister, I am sure, is cognizant of the fact that library boards in the

Province have been told they have a $900,000 deficit which government has to

recover over the next three years. Is the minister aware of this and what are

his plans, or is his department doing anything about it?

MR. WALSH: First, I have to say to you that we

have not told the public libraries that they have a $900,000 deficit. An audit

of that organization tells us that they have approximately a $900,000 deficit.

We did not inform them they had a problem. They created a deficit over a long

period of time, over a number of years. They have created the deficit. We did

not tell them they had it but when an audit was done we were informed that they

had a deficit of that amount of money.

Upon assuming responsibility for the department

last July we went through the first one week of layoff that the Libraries Board

felt they had to do in order to try to achieve some balancing of their budget

this year. I was somewhat concerned about where they were, what they were doing,

and where they were going, and subsequently we appointed an independent chairman

to chair a committee made up of members of the Libraries Board and

representatives of my own department to take a real hard look at where the

Libraries Board was and how they got there. We did that mainly because of the

Auditor General's Report, more than anything, who the year before had pretty

well, I guess, made a scathing attack on that particular group, would be the

only thing I could say the Auditor General did. They were very concerned about

purchasing practices and a number of other things, so we put an independent

committee in place - I should say a committee with an independent chairman in

place to do a revision, and we are only now starting to get some of the results

back from that. We have also in the interim asked a representative from the

internal audit of Finance to go over and to see where we are in terms of that

particular group. We've also got a representative from Treasury Board over there

now, I guess, in an administrative capacity to see where we are.

But you're correct. There's some $900,000. The only

point I'm not sure that you made, and I may have to get you to repeat it for me,

I'm not sure if you said that government has told them that they've got to repay

that in three years or something. If that was the statement, I have to say to

you I'm not aware of government telling them anything of that sort. That

decision has not been made.

I understand that the Libraries Board itself is

interested in making a proposal to government about how they could repay those

funds over some four or five years. But government has not at this point in time

dealt with it in the sense of saying: Libraries Board, here's what you do. It's

not that they owe the government, they're actually indebted to banks in this

city to the tune of $900,000. It's not that they have indebted themselves to

this government, but there's actually a chartered bank in the City of St. John's

which is on the hook, right now, today, for approximately $900,000.

I'm not sure if that's what you meant, Rick.

MR. WOODFORD: That's the understanding given to

the Libraries Board, that they have to make sure that that deficit is wiped out

in three years.

MR. WALSH: No, I have the -

MR. TULK: If I could, it seems to me that would

be the bank that would be saying to them: you've got to pay it back in three

years. If they owe the bank.

MR. WALSH: I guess what I have to say is that

at this point in time government has not directed them to pay back the $900,000

in any period of time. It is something that we're waiting for recommendations

from the committee, and we're waiting for them to tell us how they want to

approach it. I understand that the Libraries Board themselves want to make a

recommendation of how they believe they could pay back those funds. But I have

to say to you today that government has not directed them that they must pay it

back. That's something that we want to see when they come forward with a final

report as to where they are and what should be done in terms of the Libraries

Board and the libraries in our Province.

MR. WOODFORD: The Libraries Board has no choice

right now. Has the department looked at the argument that the Libraries Board

are using, not only around the Province but the provincial Library Board itself,

in saying that some of this debt was because of salary scale and step

progressions that were instituted and approved by government itself?

MR. WALSH: One of the problems we have is that

the step progression and other items that are being talked about have been there

for I guess seven or eight years. Sometimes they keep creeping up. It's hard for

me to try to interpret what they may or may not be saying in light of the fact

that as minister I've asked a committee to do a thorough review of the library

system in our Province, and in particular the Public Libraries Board, that is

chaired by an independent individual, virtually co-chaired by the chairman of

the Public Libraries Board itself.

They've worked very well together and they've been

very concerned about the situation. We've not put any real undue pressure on

them. All I've asked for as minister is: if this committee could simply tell us

where they are in actual fact. Then, from that position, we can at least begin

to review what it is we can do to help. Government has not directed them to do

anything at this point in time other than to participate with the study that

we're carrying out under the chairmanship of Mr. Phil Saunders, who is a retired

vice-president, I think, of the RoyNat Bank in Newfoundland, and a former branch

manager with I think one of the other major banks in the city prior to that. So

he's got a long involvement from a banking perspective.

The other reason that he was an ideal choice for

this particular chairmanship is the fact of his community involvement; he is

very much involved in the community and has given unselfishly of his time to so

many projects in this city that I felt that he would also look at it from the

perspective of someone who has been very civic minded and would be able to

understand how they may have reached that point in time or how they reached

where they are at this point in time, but for me to sit here and say that we

have told them they must pay back those funds, I have to say that that direction

has not come from government at this point in time.

MR. WOODFORD: But government appointed this

Donna Brewer to serve on a review committee which is set up by government. She

is directly responsible to Treasury Board and anybody who comes under Treasury

Board, as far as I am concerned, are number crunchers; and they were put in that

department and put in the library board, really that is who is acting as -

MR. WALSH: If my memory is correct, she does

not serve on the committee. She is an adviser to the committee and to the board,

but she is not a part of the committee that I put together to do a review of the

public libraries; she is an adviser. You also have to remember that the

executive director of the Public Libraries Board has retired and we felt that

someone should go in in the interim until we ascertain where we are and what

direction we are taking and that is where Miss Brewer came in and that is her

capacity. But I do not view her as a member of that task force that we put in

place. She is definitely an adviser to it and an adviser to the Libraries Board

of their current situation, but she is a part of Treasury Board, you are right.

MR. WOODFORD: But that is where the directions

are coming from now, to the library boards. The Western Regional Library Board

was told in no uncertain terms now, for instance: The cancellation of all

magazines in twenty-one branches in the Western Regional System is a decision

taken by the regional board as a result of the loss of a staff member

responsible for magazines and a $17,000 reduction in the library materials

budget alone, and I can go on and on with other examples, but that is one part

of the budget alone. That decision has been taken already.

MR. WALSH: But that decision will be a decision

of the Provincial Libraries Board, not of someone who is acting in an advisory

capacity to that board. That decision to date could only be made by the Public

Libraries Board itself, not by someone who is offering them advice about their

current situation.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, but they have been told in

no uncertain terms that those cuts had to come and that is -

MR. WALSH: Well, I am not sure of any exact

point, but I -

MR. WOODFORD: - that is not right. Okay, that

appointment is in there. The people on the West Coast of the Province, and I can

only speak for the western region, all twenty-one on the West Coast, I talked to

them on the weekend as I had meetings with them on the weekend, and they, in no

uncertain terms have been told those particular things had to be done.

MR. TULK: By whom?

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I will allow members of the Committee to question

the minister but not to question other members of the committee.

MR. WOODFORD: - and also they have been -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, Mr. Tulk?

MR. TULK: Yes, on a point of order.

If the gentleman is going to sit there and say that

it was given the orders, then do not beat around the bush and blame it on

somebody from Treasury Board, because the Provincial Library Board did not say

so, or say who it is.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, they have also been

given the impression, and I suppose they will know within a couple of months,

that the provincial board plans to axe all small libraries in the Province.

MR. WALSH: I guess I can sit here and try to

speculate on what it is that the Libraries Board is going to do, but I had to

say to you that one of the decisions that the Libraries Board has made and that

they have informed me of, is that they intend to absolutely live within the

budget that has been laid out for them this year, and if in their decision to

live within their budget they find that there are some things they may have to

eliminate, and that may be twenty-one magazine subscriptions or something, that

is their decision.

They have been given an allocation of funds of $5.9

million and they have been asked to live within that amount. Last year they

received $6,007,000 so there is not much difference between this year and last

year's Budget. The difference is that they do not intend to add to that $900,000

deficit that you referred to, this year. They intend to live within their budget

and if there are frills in terms of magazine subscriptions or some other things

that they have to deal with they will. With respect to their decision to close

libraries, you know that is something I am sure that they would want to discuss

with me, as minister, at some point in time, but I will wait the final report of

the committee that we have in place before those kinds of decisions are taken by

the libraries board.

I am sure that when that final report is complete

they will want to sit with us and then make their decisions from there. You have

to remember that even though there are some 106 libraries in the Province that

come under the Libraries Board, a number of those libraries are actually

community operated with volunteers and receive very little funds from the

Libraries Board itself. So, to say that a library may close, one has to

interpret what it is that - and I am not sure what they have been told, I am

just trying to repeat what you were saying, that if they were told that some may

close - what they may also be saying is that the mode of operation may be

different but that is why I am waiting for a final report to come. So, I cannot

answer it. It is very difficult I guess - the hon. Member for Humber Valley -

and I want to slip in and say Rick, it is very difficult, I am not sure what

they were told in Western and as minister I am waiting for a final report to

come from this committee about the plan that the Libraries Board themselves

believe that they have to implement and I am waiting to see that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: For the next ten minutes I will

turn it over to Mr. Whelan. That will bring us up to approximately 8:30 p.m. at

which time we will take a five minute recess for refreshments, then we will get

back again. Our refreshments are limited to coffee, tea and water. Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am going to get away from libraries for a minute

and get back into the wilderness which I am sure is a place where a lot of us

would like to be right now.

First of all I want to say how delighted I am to be

here and certainly honoured to be here. Also I wanted to congratulate the

Minister of Tourism and Culture for a tremendous job and as well, his team of

workers. It is certainly a challenge to start a new department. I suppose it is

a big challenge and a very rewarding one, but anyway, getting on to the concerns

that I have, I was wondering if there is any consideration given to addressing

the problem stemming from the recreational vehicles and their indiscriminate use

with regard to the wilderness areas and the areas surrounding the wilderness

areas as well. You drive along the Trans-Canada or you go off the Trans-Canada

and you just see black ribbons going through marsh lands, and I am sure it is

devastating the delicate ecology of the wilderness area, and I was wondering if

there is any consideration given to addressing that problem.

MR. WALSH: First off, allow me Don to thank you

for your question. I have not had the opportunity to say this publicly, but

allow me to do it now, that it must be quite an honour for you to have been

elected to represent a district that I understand your father represented as

well. I understand there has been only one other father and son team in

Newfoundland who has done that and I think that was Senator Fred and probably

Bill -

MR. TULK: But never from the same district.

MR. WALSH: - but never from the same district

no, and I want to say that is quite an achievement to represent a district that

your father represented and you must feel very proud about that.

Let me say to you that in terms of the

indiscriminate use of our wilderness by ATVs and so on, I will say to you

without getting into great depth on it, that the Minister of Environment and

Lands, I understand is about to present the government a paper with respect to

the use of those vehicles in our countryside. As you are probably aware, they

are already banned, no matter what season, from our ecological reserves and that

is enforced very stringently and will continue to be done, but Minister Cowan

may very well, if not in this session of the Legislature, probably in the Fall

session, will be introducing some very stringent regulations and my

understanding is some very stringent regulations with respect to the use of

vehicles in the wilderness.

Now I say that only because the Minister of

Environment and Lands will be the lead ministry. The Department of Tourism and

Culture has been very active with her officials in ensuring that what we are

trying to protect will be in that but we are trying to promote in terms of the

advantage of our wilderness in terms of our future adventure tourism programs

and of the like, that the wilderness will be there for us to be able to utilize

and promote without being scarred as it is currently being done and I think it

is just a matter of months before you will see appropriate legislation brought

forward by government under the lead of the Minister of Environment and Lands,

with our department offering total support in being a part of exactly the

legislation being prepared.

I think it is just a matter of months before you

will see that, and you are right when you say it is needed, and if we soon do

not do something, a lot of the countryside that we want to promote, which is in

a ten or fifteen or twenty-mile radius of a community, we are not going to be

able to promote and we have to be very cautious of protecting the wilderness and

that is something that we are determined to do.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you. I do not have any

further questions right now, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In that case we will take a brief

recess; you are welcome back out to the government common room for about a

five-minute recess and we will reconvene at approximately 8:30.

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: The clock is now reading 8.39, I

will turn the meeting over to Dr. Hulan for questioning.

DR. HULAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am at it again, Mr. Minister, without sounding too

much like the opposition colleague of ours, Mr. Woodford, I have to raise the

issue of the libraries in the Province. I too have been told by a - in fact, I

met Sunday afternoon with a library in Western Newfoundland. Their order has

been or what has been suggested to them is that the Provincial Library Board has

indicated that they have to recover $900,000 over, I think it is three or five

years, I am not sure, they have to recover that. This particular library that I

sat in Sunday afternoon for about three hours is owned by - the building itself

is owned by the town. The electricity for the library is provided by the town,

the assistant in the library is a town paid person, the telephone, hydro and

everything is provided by the town. The only contribution coming through the

provincial system is about a $7800 grant to look after a part-time librarian.

They have, not in writing so much, but have the clear

indication that they will probably be one of the ones that will lose their

library privileges and if that were to happen it will be very, very unfortunate,

in the fact that the library plays such a vital role in this particular town.

For instance, there are children in the town near the library who do not have a

place to do their homework so they go to the library to do their homework in the

evenings after school. In addition to the regular educational aspects that the

library provides the town and considering the District of St. George's with its

high illiteracy rate, we must be concerned and I am indeed concerned, over what

might happen to that little library. So, I raise it in this committee, Mr.

Minister, I will be raising it again, as you can imagine elsewhere but what is

going to happen in cases like this?

MR. WALSH: Thank you for your question and concern

Bud but let me say to you that I cannot rationalize in my mind what the public

libraries board may be anticipating or may believe is coming about or may think

what they have to do but I happen to be the minister responsible for public

libraries as you can see in terms of the estimates here tonight and I can say to

you that no such instruction from my department has been given to the Public

Libraries Board to repay, to whoever the funds are owed to, the $900,000 in

question. That is why we put a task force in place to review where they are, nor

has any instructions been given by my department to the Public Libraries Board

to begin a plan to phase out or close libraries in this Province. That has not

been done by this department.

Now, I cannot speak for what the Public Libraries

Board may be anticipating, I cannot speak for what they believe they should do

legally or morally to repay the $900,000 debt load that they have incurred with

some of the banks in this Province, I cannot speak for that. I can only speak

for the fact that, as minister, I have given no indication on behalf of this

government that they must do one, two, three, four, five or any number of items

in order to deal with the $900,000. We have not said to them: here is a

repayment plan, begin it. We have not done that. We have not said to them save

money where you can, if you have to close libraries, do so. We have not done

that. We have done just the opposite in that particular case. When they said to

us, look, we owe this money and we may have to close libraries the first words

from me to the board representatives were, before you take action that says that

libraries themselves must close in this Province I think we should wait for the

report from the committee itself, and that is very important. That is why this

task force or this review committee was put in place with an independent

chairman from outside government to look at it, and that is why we asked them to

do that. I just had to say to you that there have been no instructions from this

department and I cannot believe that any other department would issue

instructions without notifying this department that that action must be taken. I

can only say to you, no, no, no, we have not done that.

DR. HULAN: It is unfortunate because the

indication that the libraries are being given is that indeed government has said

it. That is what they are going on and they are saying it is coming from

government. It is unfortunate for government that that is the message that is

out there, and it is spreading in the community.

I have one other question concerning ferry costs, the

ferry costs to get to our fair island, and the impact that has on

Newfoundlanders who are away from this Province. Having travelled the ferry for

thirty years to come back each summertime when I was away for thirty short years

I also was required to dig deep in my pocket more and more each year. That is

one aspect of it, of bringing our own people home to see their families which is

very, very important to Newfoundland people as we all know in this Chamber. Also

there is the negative impact it has on tourism. I have heard you speak before of

other concerns but I would just like to have some reassurance here as to what is

the plan of attack on that problem?

MR. WALSH: The plan of attach is not much

different than it was some months ago when we were advised that Transport Canada

had given Marine Atlantic permission to increase ferry rates to this Province

while at the same time reducing them from Nova Scotia into Bar Harbour, Main. We

are very concerned about that for a number of reasons. When we analyzed the

amount by which they were increasing in Newfoundland the cost to come here they

would probably collect based on last year's numbers another $400,000, but we

found when we took the numbers in Nova Scotia to the United States and looked at

the discounts they were offering it pretty well equalled the same amount they

are now looking to take out of people coming to this Province.

Our plan has been very basic. We have tried to deal

with Marine Atlantic direct. By the way, I have to give Marine Atlantic full

marks because they have done an awful lot of things right in terms of upgrading

the service, the new Joseph and Clara, and a number of other things they have

done which have been very positive, yet the continuing desire to increase the

rates into this Province has a negative impact on all the things they have done

right. We are going to continue our campaign to bring down the ferry rates and

see them go in that other direction. We are going to do it when it is probably

the most opportune time for us and I intend to make it a major issue through our

department and also through intergovernmental affairs, a major issue in the

upcoming federal election. I intend to elicit and solicit from the Leader of the

Opposition a very strong commitment that he will commit himself to reducing

ferry rates into this Province, and I intend to do the same thing with whoever

the future Prime Minster of this country would be. I have had discussions with

the federal members in opposition, in the House of Commons, and also with

federal members on the government side and I intend to continue that drive.

One of the things we have found that is so upsetting

to us is the fact that we deliberately as a government set out three years ago

to lower the ferry rates in this Province because we looked at them as an

extension of our own highway. For years we have been saying this to the federal

government, that the entry into Newfoundland was an extension of our highway

network. We felt that the best approach was not to say to the federal

government, here is what you must do, we wanted to set the example and we have

done that. For three years now we have brought the rates down, in my own

district, back and forth to Bell Island, the rates are lower today than they

were ten years ago and I am sure the same thing in Fogo and other areas.

In actual fact we said to the federal government: do

as we do, not as we say. They have done just the opposite, they have continued

to increase it. I say to you that even last year when the other maritime

provinces were seeing decreases in their tourism dollars and in the tourists

visiting their areas, Newfoundland actually saw a slight, ever so slight,

increase. I say to you that if you want to make tourism the industry that it can

become in Newfoundland, the key to it is the lower rates and I do not intend to

let it go. I intend to maintain the battle, we have drawn the lines, I am going

to work as much as I can in cooperation with the official's at Marine Atlantic

but if I cannot get the results there then I intend to do it on the federal

level. I intend too, if there is nothing else I accomplish in my tenure in

politics in this Province it will be to make sure that the rates coming into

this Province reflect what they would be if it was our Trans-Canada Highway and

I do not intend to let that go. I have to say that it is one of the few items

that both sides of this legislature have endorsed totally. I must say, I want to

compliment both sides of the House because both sides have said this has to be

done in order for us to see the economic growth that we can attain from tourism.

DR. HULAN: Well, Sir, you are preaching to the

converted and you will have my full support I can assure you. I have one final

little comment and it is made in a little lighter moment but I lived in Nova

Scotia for many years and they too claimed John Cabot and how are Nova Scotian's

feeling about the great celebration that our fair Province is planning in 1997?

I am saying that with a little tongue in cheek, Sir.

MR. WALSH: Well, let me say without tongue in

cheek that I am sure they are wishing us very well because when you have a $1

million vessel being built in Bristol which intends to - a little more, probably

more than a $1 million - that intends to sail to Bonavista, I am sure that Nova

Scotian's will wish us well because that is where they are coming. The people of

Italy have fully endorsed Newfoundland as the area that Cabot saw his landfall

and I can absolutely assure you that 1997 belongs to the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador and to no one else. We are willing to share as an

international event taking place in this Province but it belongs to our Province

and there is no one who will question that. I have a feeling that the

Premier-elect Savage in Nova Scotia will probably agree with us because I have

been informed that CBC has declared a Liberal government in Nova Scotia. I am

sure John Savage will agree with our philosophy and the historical information

available, that this is where Cabot came first.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am going to try to keep my

answers brief.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I must for the record remind you and

the members of our Committee of a comment that I was asked to officially make as

chairman of this Committee we were on recess, that the hockey game begins at

9:30 p.m. So, if you could keep your answers brief and the members of the

Committee would keep their questions brief, I do not think that we will have any

problems with that.

Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Well first of all, on the last

comments here good luck in the pursuit of that ferry because I am sure, like you

said, that the opposition has also agreed with that part of it. I have always

thought that too and I wish you good luck with that. I will be supporting you in

any way I can with that part.

MR. WALSH: Thank you.

MR. SHELLEY: I just want to bring up this question

very quickly on the outfitters camps. As I am sure you will agree, I believe

Newfoundland and Labrador, especially Labrador, about which we do not talk a

lot, to be the wildlife paradise, that it is. It certainly is in my area, from

rabbits to good trouting, to salmon, to moose and caribou and everything else,

so this question about outfitters camps, which I do not know a lot about, I must

admit, and I am just wondering what the future holds as far as regulations and

licensing these camps.

I know there are some people now in pursuit of

licenses and for a lot of strange reasons, or, things are not quite clear - I am

going to be investigating them of course, but on behalf of some constituents,

and for example, in the whole area of my district there is not one and I can

name some other places I think on the West Coast and up along the Northern

Peninsula. I just want to see an outfitters camp for licensing -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, for moose and that type of thing

AN HON. MEMBER: But not for salmon?

MR. SHELLEY: No, for moose, caribou and hunting

different things like that but basically licences for wildlife and setting up

these camps, so I am wondering what the future holds as far as regulations for

these types of licenses and, where do we see it going in the near future?

MR. WALSH: Very basic, let me say first and

foremost that the outfitters industry in this Province to date, is worth $11

million a year to us. We believe that managed properly, over the next five years

we can move that into the $17 million, $18 million range very comfortably and

very easily, by working closely with the outfitters association and others, but

in terms of what we are doing in terms of licensing for those particular groups,

we have a couple of problems.

One, back in '87 and '88, - and I might be wrong on

the numbers - a number of people who wanted to get into the big game outfitting

industry were unable to because the allocations for big game just were not

there, and so they are allowed into the industry with bear licences. What the

department has tried to do, probably since '88, is to address those who were

permitted to come into the industry with bear licences, allowing them to upgrade

themselves, while at the same time trying to deal with the big game hunters who

are already in the industry, an opportunity to upgrade themselves; so what you

have had is: we have had new entrances I guess, really through the back door,

they could not get the licences one way, they went out and made large

investments with respect to trying to make it on bear licences alone, have not

been able to, and so we have been trying to integrate them over the last number

of years. I think this past year we may have brought in one of the last fellows

who started off with a bear licence in the mid-80s and we have been able to move

them forward.

The other things that we are trying to do, is that we

want to be sure that of the 10 per cent allocation that is available to

non-residents, we want to be sure that the camps involved are actually meeting

their own quotas. It is no good to have licences if you cannot sell them, and I

am really proud to say that we virtually sold out this year in this Province

with the licences that we had available. We had yet another problem this year

that outfitters themselves are finding it somewhat difficult to deal with, and

that is, that based on the best information that the wildlife department could

give government, and I want to say again that I respect the wildlife branch

because if they are going to err, they always err on the side of management, on

the side of the conservation, and I think that is very important rather than err

the other way.

This year, I think we had to eliminate some 600

licences out of the total available and that automatically meant that sixty-odd

licences had to come out of the big game allocation for non-residents; we have

had to do that this year and so it has made it a little more difficult, one, for

people to expand their existing camps and two, it has made it virtually

impossible for someone new, trying to get into the business. When we have had to

lift out licences, it is very difficult then to turn around and say to a new

operator, come on in; it is very unfair to them, because in some cases they will

have to invest a couple hundred thousand dollars or more, and five years from

now they may lose everything they own or two years from now they may lose

everything they own because we do not have the licences to give to them, so we

are trying to, one, strengthen the industry that we have and at the same time

allow it to expand with existing operators.

MR. SHELLEY: Do you allocate licenses with respect

to regions, is that one of the criteria?

MR. WALSH: As much as possible, based on the

information that we have available. We have some areas where we have more game

that we know literally what to do with. We have other areas where, based on the

information that's come back at the end of the season, we've had even greater

difficulties.

MR. SHELLEY: So is that the basis for allocating

these licences, the game in the area? Am I correct in saying that?

MR. WALSH: Population counts based on the

statistics. You see, every big game hunter, or every camp, has to report its

success ratios for last year back to the department. If you had twenty licences

last year and you sold twenty licences, but you only had a kill of ten, that

tells us that something was either wrong for you as a camp operator, but then we

may have had out 100 or more resident licences and we found that their kill

ratio was very low. So we've got to make judgement calls based on the results

that are coming back to us.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. I'm not sure about the details.

Maybe I'll try to use a specific example. Again I have to use my own district,

but I'm not trying to do this as a district thing but just relative to the

Province, okay? In my district out there there's not one outfitters camp. I

think two people have applied for them, or three maybe, I'm not sure. The moose

population on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I don't think there's any problem with

moose, as far as I can tell. I'm new at this moose licence thing, by the way. I

haven't had one yet, but I have applied.

Anyway, I just find it very strange that on a

peninsula like that, I'm just wondering if there are other places around, why

these people who have applied for outfitters' licences are not getting them. I'm

really curious about that. Of course I'm going to try to find out because I

don't know the details. I'm ignorant about how outfitters camps work. I'm really

going to be pursuing that. I'm wondering where else in the Province is it

happening, and why these allocations are - it seems like in one region there's

two or three, and in a region like mine there are none.

MR. WALSH: I'll touch on the answer a little bit

and I'll defer to Jim to help me out with it. One of the biggest problems we

have is that if there's a high resident demand in a given area we always try to

ensure that camps themselves are not operating where residents tend to hunt,

side by side. We tend to try to isolate one from the other. In an area where

from around the Province in a lot of cases, we try to eliminate that in terms of

suggesting to someone to put a camp in there. Because we have found

historically, and people in the industry will tell you, that it's very difficult

to operate a camp when there is a high resident demand for a given area. In case

I'm a little off track, Jim Hancock might explain this.

MR. HANCOCK: No, I really can't elaborate too much

on what the minister said, but these are the main factors. It's the

and also of course the quality of the camp, are some of the primary factors that

are taken into consideration during the allocation. We are now at a stage too

where there just are only enough licences to give to the camps that are

currently in existence.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Jim. Basically, I guess,

what I'm saying is that the high resident demand in your own area pretty well

precludes an opportunity for a camp to operate in that area. That's a dilemma

that we're facing.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, first of all, let me say

to the minister that the Members for St. George's and Baie Verte - White Bay

anticipated the question that I was about to ask him, that is, on the

transportation issue across the Gulf. Let me say to him again that the amount of

progress that seems to have been made on this in the last four years since I

took an involuntary leave of absence from the Legislature is amazing. I can

remember from 1982 to 1987, 1988, when the then-Member for LaPoile, Mr. Neary,

and myself, and a number of other people in the Liberal Party, if I can use that

word, were pushing for this concept that wherever you live in this country it

should cost you no more to travel by water than it should by the same distance

by highway.

It's amazing to see the amount of progress that has

been made. It is obviously the kind of Liberal move that will, I think, and as I

have said for years, you can spend all the money you want on facilities in this

Province but unless you get that transportation concept in place you are talking

about, then you will never have the type of tourist industry in the Province

that you should have. I believe that is correct, but I also believe it is

correct with regard to the cost of living as well, and certainly in the area of

tourism. I want to congratulate the minister on pushing for that. Let me say

that in 1982 the leader of the Liberal Party in New Brunswick at the time one

Ray Frenette, the leader of the Liberal Party in Nova Scotia was Sandy Cameron,

and the leader of the Liberal Party in Prince Edward Island was Joe Ghiz, and

the leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland was an interim leader at that

time by the name of Steve Neary, and we came to a consensus in Atlantic Canada

as a Liberal Party at that time that indeed that would be a concept that we

would push the federal government for, so it is not something that is new.

Now, as he says, with the practical annihilation of

the other crowd this evening there is now a new Liberal government in Nova

Scotia so there should be no reason, because remember most of those people have

some interest in this concept as well, but there should be no reason why you

cannot put a great amount of pressure on the federal government, which will also

probably be Liberal in another little while, there should be no reason why we

should not get this concept in place.

I want to congratulate him on his commitment to it and

I say to him, yes, the Opposition in this Province should obviously jump on his

bandwagon, as I understand they have, and see that they, too, get onside with

this concept. It can do probably more for Newfoundland than the Hibernia project

itself. I believe that is possible. I want to ask him if there have been any

studies done at all to show what the effect of that type of concept would have

on Newfoundland, on the economic well being of Newfoundland? I will leave that

question and try to get another couple of small questions I have here in as

well. I want also to ask him, I suppose on behalf of the Chairman, as we happen

to reside in neighbouring districts and where tonight he is probably not in a

position to ask a question of the minister, I ask the minister if he or one of

his officials could give us the status of the jointly funded Beothuck

Interpretation Centre at Boyd's Cove? Those are the two questions, and I would

like for him to comment on whether there have been any studies done to show what

the effects would be, and to tell him that we are all onside on the

transportation issue.

MR. WALSH: You are absolutely right, that the

concept is not new. The determination is no different than it was years ago but

the thrust is a little different simply because we are coming at it from a

government policy point of view and it is high on our priority list. I will say

to you that it is the major stumbling block in what we call the rubber tire

traffic in this Province. When I mentioned earlier that we were a $440 million

industry I say to you if you want to see us double that and double it very

quickly as opposed to over the next ten years you cut those rates in half and I

tell you we will fill this Province with tourists because they want to come and

we will probably need another brand new Joseph and Clara to meet the needs. The

irony in this whole concept of lowering the rates and trying to get them down to

a point where we can bring people to this Province comes from the fact that

Marine Atlantic actually gave back to the federal government about $7 million in

subsidies that were allocated to them. They said, take them back, but if they

had kept even $2 million of that we probably could have taken one third, or at

least 20 per cent, off the cost of a ticket to come to this Province.

MR. TULK: I understand that to be the case.

MR. WALSH: And if they had to keep $4 million of

it we probably could have came God awful close to cutting the cost of getting to

this Province in half. Instead of doing that, we saw them increasing the rates

in Newfoundland while at the same time decreasing the rates, because they wanted

to increase their market share from Nova Scotia to the United States. That was

absolutely wrong, it was unforgivable, and it was really saying that -

MR. TULK: It's economically stupid too.

MR. WALSH: - it was also saying that: we should

not be promoting ourselves as Canada, as Canadians. We should make it easier for

Americans, who had an alternate way of getting to Nova Scotia. They can come by

road. This is the Province they should have offered the discounts in, and they

probably would have made enough money still to offset the Nova Scotia losses

that they had. But to have given back $7 million when they could have probably

doubled the amount of people coming into our Province to me is unforgivable.

MR. TULK: Economically stupid.

MR. WALSH: Now, Boyd's Cove. Boyd's Cove is a

program and a project that we are working very closely with our federal

counterparts on. At this point in time both parties in the federal-provincial

agreement are very committed to Boyd's Cove. In terms of how far we've come,

we're certainly well into the planning, in terms of our discussions with our

counterparts, the federal government, and I'm confident that the federal

government and ourselves will be in a position to make some announcements with

respect to Boyd's Cove in the very near future.

MR. TULK: That makes the chairman smile.

MR. WALSH: It is something that we believe in

jointly. Not just us, but the federal government. Now the logistics have to be

worked out, the amount of funds - whether it's $1 million, or $1.1 million, $1.2

million, that we may have to identify for this project. We believe that's the

amount of money we'll probably need for the project. That part has been

identified. We now have to work with our federal counterparts to finalize an

agreement that hopefully will be announced... well, I suppose as soon as we're

able to put the finishing touches to it. We're not to that stage yet, but we're

getting closer every day. I have tremendous faith that the federal government

will continue to see the significance in Boyd's Cove as we do as a province and

as we do in this department.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: I'd like to think that they will stay

on side with us and we'll be able to see that project come to fruition.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Mr. Minister, I wanted to go to the

other extreme, I suppose. I was wondering if indeed your department has any

input with regard to theatrical groups in the Province. If so, I was wondering

what the status of these groups are. Whether they're buoyant, or whether they're

stable, or having a hard time, floundering, and if so -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WHELAN: - what's being done with regard to

funding.

MR. WALSH: Let me say first and foremost that with

respect to theatrical groups we're very much involved in trying to sustain them

and also to maintain their economic viability. All across Canada, and also in

the United States itself, if there's anything that has been affected most it is

the theatre, simply because of the economic downturn. The disposable income is

just not there for that extra special night out or to be able to do it. Also,

the costs of mounting productions have gone up dramatically and one has not

caught up with the other yet. So the cost of the tickets are still up here while

the economy has taken a downturn.

So the theatre is being affected all throughout North

America. There are winners such as The Phantom and Les Misrables and Miss

Saigon. They're the ones that we hear most about because they're the winners

today. But the Off-Broadway, or the smaller productions, are being affected

dramatically.

Here in this Province last September we signed a $5

million cultural industries agreement - I did, with Mr. Crosbie on behalf of the

federal government - and that has been put in place to help theatrical groups,

and others, with their marketing and development of their discipline and what

they are trying to do. To promote themselves, to in some cases purchase

equipment that's needed in order for them to sustain themselves and to allow

their particular areas to grow. So, those are the kinds of things that we are

doing. We are very cognizant of the problems that they are having and we realize

that.

In these tough Budget times or these tough economic

times, we have done everything in our power to make sure that those who

desperately needed the help were able to get the help required. We are there

backing them every step of the way in everything that we can do. Some of the

major productions of the Arts and Culture Centres last year - one production

cost us in excess of $100,000 to mount and I believe our revenues may have been

around $40,000, somewhere in that neighbourhood, it may have been around $40,000

generated through ticket sales. That is the kind of commitment that we have

shown, as a Province, to various productions that we have seen on our own

stages. So, yes, we are there to support wherever we can, bearing in mind that

we are in some tough economic times ourselves.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the subject of tourist chalet's, could the minister

or someone on his staff, give me a status report on what new is going to happen

with the tourist chalet in Deer Lake and if there is anything new pertaining to

a tourist chalet for the Hampden intersection with White Bay?

MR. WALSH: With respect to Deer Lake, we have

carried over a commitment from last year to complete a display and exhibit at

Deer Lake that will, in particular, promote the region and the Northern

Peninsula as well. I think total cost is around $160,000. Now, that project

probably could have gone ahead last year but the proposals that came forward we

felt did not really depict what we are trying to do in the Deer Lake chalet. So,

for that reason that work is going ahead now. So, we are very committed to

finishing the job that we started at the Deer Lake chalet and we intend to see

that work carried out to promote that region and promote the Viking Trail in

particular. So, we are absolutely going to do that.

Now, with respect to the one at Hampden, I have to say

to you I am just - is that one of ours or is that -

MR. WOODFORD: No, there is neither one there but

there is some talk of whether it is going to go through the provincial

department or through Community Futures or some other organization. I think the

liberal candidate there had a lot to say about it in the election. So, I am just

wondering if there is any truth to it or not?

MR. WALSH: - and he did and I am sure that

whatever he said was absolutely accurate except for one thing that -

MR. WOODFORD: - except there was no money.

MR. WALSH: - that in our belief of the need, it is

certainly there but I tend to think that you are correct, that the Community

Futures people in that area are looking to do some work with respect to that. As

a matter of fact, this Friday night I am meeting with the Humber Valley Regional

Tourism or Bay of Islands or Humber Valley Regional Tourism Association -

MR. WOODFORD: This Friday night you have an

opening there in Corner Brook at The Mamateek Inn.

MR. WALSH: Yes and I am going over to participate

in that and take advantage of that opening to meet with them to talk about their

concerns and their needs that were brought to my attention over the last couple

of months. I am hoping to do that Friday night with them but in terms of can we

do it this year? I have to say to you, no, it is not on our priority list for

this year. We are more concerned with upgrading and meeting the needs that we

have in existing chalets. Is it there for future years? I would like to see it

there myself.

I should say that our priority has changed somewhat in

terms of what we believe is the next important chalet to us and that is in

Labrador West. We see that as the last gateway into Newfoundland because of the

Trans-Labrador Highway. It is our belief that the number of tourists who will

now come out of Central Canada in particular and the Central United States will

come up through the Trans-Labrador Highway, make the loop around into Goose Bay

and then from there come across, be it to Lewisporte and then make the decision

on how to exit the Province, be it through Argentia or be it through Port aux

Basques, but we have identified Labrador West as the real key component in the

finishing the entrances into Newfoundland. We already have Argentia, Port aux

Basques, Labrador West is on the priority list as our next project.

MR. WOODFORD: Going back to the questions on

outfitters, Mr. Minister, can you clarify something for me? I have been

approached on several occasions about - whether there is any truth to it or not,

I do not know, maybe it is just hearsay or sour grapes, especially pertaining to

people trying to get into the industry - saying that some outfitters in the

Province do not take up their allocation, there are some grave discrepancies

there pertaining to outfitters not utilizing their allocations. Is that a fact

or not?

MR. WALSH: Absolutely. For the last number of

years, outfitters have not been utilizing their allocation and to that, two

years ago, the then minister responsible for tourism told the outfitters at

their annual convention, that in 1993, you either use them or lose them. This

was the year that if they did not use them, we served notice that they now have

the potential of losing them, and in some cases we actually cut back the

allocations that some of them had, but again, to try to maintain strength in the

industry, we have re-allocated some of those licences for this year only, to

existing operators who were already sold out, so if somebody had twenty licences

and only sold ten, we may have cut them back by five, to still allow them some

growth and we have taken that five and probably moved them over to someone who

had twenty, had twenty sold, and allowing them to sell five more this year, and

so we have managed ourselves the re-allocation.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, but you are still living within

the 10 per cent and the freeze is still on, on any new allocations?

MR. WALSH: Absolutely. We have no choice but to

live within the allocation, and I do not know if I have nerve enough to approach

government this year - I may want to ask for a larger allocation for

non-residents, but you know and I know what that will do within the Province,

and I do not know if we are ready at this point in time or if the industry is

solidified enough so that we really need to ask for a greater amount; but the

time is coming when some minister will have to approach his or her government to

say, we now need more, but I think we have an opportunity to see some flushing

out of those who have licences and have really given up on the industry and we

need to see those re-allocations first, but there is a time coming in the next

five or ten years, where, someone is going to have to ask for more licences for

non-residents and that would be an interesting debate when it comes.

MR. WOODFORD: There has been some talk and I think

your department is well aware of it, in fact, you can also answer this question

too. Is there a count being done on the caribou herd on the Hampden Downs area,

Birchy Lake area now, and moose population in that area, especially pertaining

to the - I suppose it is the possible location of a firing range in the upper

Indian River area?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: An area that - because, remember

that one was supposed to go into Sheffield Lake, a couple years ago.

MR. WALSH: It is a little more technical than I

can pull out of my own head. I will defer to our director, Jim Hancock, if it is

fine with you.

MR. WOODFORD: I understand, Jim, that they did a

winter count on the caribou, and found very few moose; they have just finished

another count now, especially on the moose and now they are going back to do

another one within a month in that particular area, mainly because of the

possible establishment of a firing range, some sort of a firing range in the

upper Indian River area.

MR. HANCOCK: There are some surveys ongoing in

that particular area as part of the proposal that you talked about. We do not

have all the results in as yet, but we have no reason to believe that there has

been any major changes in populations of moose or caribou in that particular

area.

MR. WOODFORD: You have no reason to think that

there's no major increase in caribou?

MR. HANCOCK: In the moose population, and in the

caribou, in that specific location. Overall, caribou have increased in some of

the herds, but in that particular location we haven't got all the surveys

finished yet.

MR. WOODFORD: Especially pertaining to the Hampden

Downs area.

MR. HANCOCK: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: I was told that - and not only that,

but I've seen it myself, that the Hampden Downs area over the last five years

have increased, as far as I'm concerned, looking at it visually, dramatically,

and the time is coming very soon for a possible allocation of licences for that

area.

MR. HANCOCK: You're right, they may indeed have

increased. As I say, caribou herds throughout the whole Island have increased

but in that particular area, specifically on the Hampden Downs, because that

particular herd, of course, interacts with a lot of the other herds from the

Topsails and from the Buchans herd and also from the Humber River herd, we call

it, up there at the base of the Northern Peninsula. So how discreet that

particular herd is, and whether that herd has increased in itself, or as a

function of some of the adjoining herds, these are the kinds of questions that

we really haven't completely answered as yet.

MR. WOODFORD: My question is: is that count being

done specifically to try to entertain this proposal? I've been told that this

proposal for the area, this range, that the count has been done specifically to

try to see what's going on in that area to see if that proposal can be

accommodated. Is that true?

MR. HANCOCK: I suspect that the proposal you're

talking about is probably being done as part of the assessment. It's certainly

not one that we are doing purely from a management perspective ourselves. It

would be done in relation to the assessment of the proposal, yes. Any of the

environmental assessments that require additional information gathered will be

done in exactly the same way. We act in an advisory role in those particular

ones.

MR. WOODFORD: No, because as you can recall there

was quite a bit of controversy. At that time they were going to put it in the

Sheffield Lake area, and because of all the cabin owners they sort of dropped

it. But now there's some speculation that it's going to move on the other side,

to the head of the Indian River system there, so....

MR. HANCOCK: Yes, there was tremendous opposition

I think from some of the cabin owners at the first site that was selected.

MR. WOODFORD: Okay. My time is up, is it? Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll go back to the members of our

Committee. We'll be back to Mr. Woodford in a minute. Any questions from any of

our Committee members?

Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: I thought the Member for Fogo wanted

something to say. No? Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair has recognized Mr.

Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Minister, in your budget report

too it also says that grant funding to third party organizations has been

reduced by $214,000. Could you give us some more specifics on that particular

amount?

MR. WALSH: We can give you the specifics, and I'll

certainly do that, but let me tell you how we tried to arrive at who we could

maintain funding for, who we could increase it for, and who in the end would

probably, I suppose for want of another term, receive less.

We were given a block of funds and told that this is

all that you have in order to allocate for that particular program. In meeting

with our officials the criteria that I laid out were very simple. One, those

that had absolutely nowhere else to go to find their funds should be protected

at all costs. Two, those that were in the 50 to 60 per cent range where they

couldn't find additional funds, we should look at doing what we can to protect

those as well. Those that had an opportunity to access other funds in order to

sustain themselves, they were the ones that we would probably look at and say:

that's where our cuts may come from.

To give you an example of that, I guess the best one

would be the annual contribution to the Atlantic Canada tourism program. It was

$35,000. There is nowhere else for those funds to come from. We had to sustain

that funding and we did. Another good example is the Art Procurement Program in

the Province, it is $100,000 that has been there for a long time - any amount of

those funds eliminated - there was nowhere else for them to go, so therefore we

look to protect that. The John Cabot Corporation, which we had set up, whatever

we put into it was met by ACOA. They needed $200,000 just to maintain their

basic operations, we made sure that they received that. Another good example is

the Signal Hill Tattoo, the $30,000 from us went directly into salaries for the

students for this year. There was no other source for the funds and they needed

our $30,000 in order to access other funds. So, we had to leave that there.

The local information chalet's throughout the island

for example, there are twelve of them who receive $5,000 a year annual grant

from us. We all know it is not enough but there is nowhere else for them to go,

so we maintain that one. Now, there were some that went the other way. I can

either deal with all of them or deal with the ones that we have had to see some

cuts to. For example, the Stephenville Festival, which is one that we have heard

most of in the last little while, it went from a little better than $35,000 to

$17,000 and change, we saw a cut there. Grants to festivals throughout

Newfoundland, normally there would have been $150,000 allocated for that, it is

down to $75,000. Yet, they can access other funds as well and that is one of the

reasons we saw a change there.

We looked at, in terms of reductions, the local

information chalet's, as I said, remain the same. The Signal Hill Tattoo remains

the same. The Marble Mountain Development Corporation were hoping to get

$175,000 from us this year, cut back to $135,000. We all know how important that

particular item is to the entire West Coast in trying to develop our Winter

tourism. We were fortunate when it came to the LSPU Hall, a very modest

increase. They received $10,000 the year before in direct grants and we managed

to get them up to $12,700. I will say to you that close to year end last year we

had a few dollars left in that pot and because they were getting ready to

literally shut down the building because they could not afford to maintain heat,

light and insurances, we managed to get them, I think it was some $5,000 close

to year end last year but in actual grants this year, they are up a little.

Newfoundland quarterly went from $17,000 - they were

looking for $20,000, they were maintained at the same level as the year before.

Them Day magazine, maintained at the same level. Tickle Ace magazine saw a

decrease from $10,000 down to $5,000. The Newfoundland and Labrador assistance

to artists representing the Province, outside the Province, we saw a complete

reduction in that particular year's budget, it went from $24,000 down to zero.

The Publisher's Assistance Program which enable people to - we paid that fund

out. That was cut in half from $120,000 down to $60,000. The local community

museums and the heritage foundations, we maintained their budget at the $93,000

level that they had the year before. We went on and we had another one that

covered qualified archaeologists, the budget request was $22,000 and that was

for archaeologists working on various sites which are protected under Historic

Resources Act, that was cut in half to $11,000. Other ones are much smaller

ones, less than $1,000 or $2,000 and there was another one there the Protected

Areas Association of Newfoundland received $22,000 the year before, but that was

part of an agreement that we had under a three year program, and that was the

last year of a three year program. That one was affected as well.

That pretty well covers the ones that were affected in

our department. There was another one, $6,000 reduced to $4,500, down by $1,500,

and that was the Cooperative Wildlife Health and Laboratory for Canada. That was

reduced somewhat, but again it was part of an ongoing program that we had. Those

were basically the ones that we saw cuts in, and also the ones that I'm very

pleased to say that during these tough economic times we were able to maintain.

We've maintained more than we affected, and I think that says and augurs well

for the officials in the department who put up some very strong arguments why we

should protect these people.

MR. WOODFORD: Your $200,000 that has been provided

for the rehabilitation of provincial parks. Where will that be spent and when?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WALSH: That's a good question. Those are brand

new funds and that's a brand new $200,000 that's gone in. I may have to turn to

Don Hustins for some specifics. We're expecting some pretty strong

recommendations to come from the task force on parks. We felt there was going to

be an allocation of funds required and so we've set aside $200,000. Don may be

able to help us a little more, if I could defer to him.

MR. HUSTINS: Yes, the minister has indicated we

haven't allocated those funds at this point in time. We're primarily looking at

the final results of the task force which we're hoping to have mid- or late-June

and allocate the funds accordingly afterwards, based on specific parks