1975 Legislative Session: 5th Session, 30th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

TUESDAY, APRIL 29, 1975

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page

1807 ]

CONTENTS

Oral questions Beacon auto body shop purchase. Mr. Bennett — 1807

Alcohol and drug information guide. Mr. L.A. Williams — 1807

Late ferry sailings. Mr. Wallace — 1807

Transfer of young offender between jails. Mr. Curtis — 1808

Refurnishing of judge's office. Mr. Fraser — 1808

Empty government buildings. Mr. Gibson — 1808

Purchase of Blue Gables Motel for minimum security institution. Mr. Smith —

Transfer of Haney inmates. Mr. McClelland — 1809

Farm income assurance plan for greenhouse growers. '. Curtis — 1809

Review of ICBC payments to retired persons. Hon. Mr. Strachan answers —

Regular review of sentences for violent crimes. Mr. LA Williams —

Air-sea rescue and medical services for herring fleet. Mr. Wallace —

Committee of Supply: Department of Minister Without Portfolio estimates On

vote 269. Hon. Mr. Nunweiler — 1810

Division on vote 269 — 1831

Department of Education estimates. On the amendment to vote 38. Mr. Schroeder

— 1832

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I'd like the House to welcome two

distinguished gentlemen who are present on the floor of the

House today, Dr. Leon Bagramov of the Soviet Academy of

Science, accompanied by his Canadian guide, Dr. J. Rae.

MR. D. F. LOCKSTEAD (Mackenzie): Mr. Speaker, we have in the

gallery five grade 12 students from Bella Coola, accompanied by

their teacher, Mr. Ed Nash. I ask the House to join me in

welcoming them.

MS. K. SANFORD (Comox): Mr. Speaker, seated in the gallery

today are high school students from around the province who are

participating in a UN seminar. The students are here today to

find out how a provincial assembly works. Some of them will

then go on to watch the federal House of Commons in operation.

From there, a few of them will go down to see the world

assembly at work in New York. They are accompanied today by the

executive secretary to the United Nations here in British

Columbia, Lydia Sayle. I wish the House would make them welcome

this afternoon.

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): Mr. Speaker, there is a group

of students from Parkland Secondary School in North Saanich in the gallery today

accompanied by Mrs. Isobel Inglis. This isn't the usual school tour. These students

are embarked on a rather detailed study of the legislative process. They are

Gary Bland, Mike Bushby, Tevis DeLarge, Louise Herlinveaux, Maureen Love, June

Maffoot, Debbie Harris and Sheila McKinnon. Perhaps the House would welcome

them

HON. A.B. MACDONALD (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to bring

to the attention of the House that one of the members of our press gallery,

Candide Temple, has won the Louis St. Laurent fellowship in legal journalism.

She will be able to take a course at either Queen's or Laval University, with

a little stipend attached to it. I think it attests to her ability and to the

quality and depth of the whole press gallery. (Laughter.)

MR. E.O. BARNES (Vancouver Centre): Mr. Speaker, I'd like

the House to welcome three members of Vancouver Centre, Marilyn

Sarti, Margaret Birrell and Sharon Johnston.

Oral questions.

BEACON AUTO BODY SHOP PURCHASE

MR. W.R. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, to

the Minister of Transport and Communications. Could the

Minister advise if the purchase price of $422,000 that he

announced yesterday that ICBC paid for Beacon auto body in

Surrey was for the shares only?

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Transport and Communications): We didn't

purchase shares; we purchased the total assets, That's my information.

MR. BENNETT: Supplementary, then. Did ICBC assume any first

mortgages, second mortgages and chattel mortgages that were on

the equipment or the buildings or the property, in addition to

the $422,000?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: My understanding is that the total cost

to ICBC is and will be $422,000.

MR. BENNETT: A further supplementary. Will the Minister advise the

name of the outside appraisal firm that did the appraisal for ICBC to establish

the price?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: You check on it and get the

information.

ALCOHOL AND DRUG

INFORMATION GUIDE

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Mr. Speaker,

a question to the Hon. Minister of Education. Yesterday Members

had available to them a professional guide to alcohol and drug

information, produced by the education department of the

Alcohol and Drug Commission. I wonder if the Minister could

advise whether the curriculum branch or any other

section of

her department has vetted this professional guide.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): No, I can't. I'll

have to take that question as notice.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: Supplemental, then. Perhaps the Minister

could also, when responding to that question, advise the House

whether or not this professional guide has been distributed to

the school teachers of the province and, if so, what extent the

distribution has taken.

LATE FERRY SAILINGS

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of

Transport and Communications. With regard to Sunday's

interrupted ferry

schedule and the

[ Page 1808 ]

late sailings that were put on as late as 1:30 in the

morning, does this represent a change in basic policy by the

department to the effect that late ferries will always be put

on in such circumstances?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, I wouldn't say that it was a change

of policy. We look at the situation as it exists.

MR. WALLACE: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the department

made any decision regarding late night ferries on a regular

basis, particularly during the holiday season?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: We've been looking at it carefully for a

considerable length of time, as you know. I've never ruled the

possibility out in my own mind. That, I think, will have to

wait until the restructuring and rescheduling of all routes

after we get the three new ships which are due off line a

little more than a year from now.

MR. WALLACE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. In other

words, there can be little chance of extended ferry service for

the summer months this year. The chances of that being

available are unlikely, I take it.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes.

TRANSFER OF YOUNG

OFFENDER BETWEEN JAILS

MR. CURTIS: To the Hon. Attorney-General. Several days ago I

gave the Minister written information concerning an 18-year-old

youth who has been bounced around a variety of jails and

correctional centres in recent weeks. My latest information,

incidentally, Mr. Speaker, is that this person is now in

Oakalla. Has the Minister requested and received a report on

this case?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Requested but not received. I'll look

into it right away.

MR. CURTIS: I wonder if the Minister would indicate if he

will direct that arrangements be made to put this 18-year-old

in a facility more suitable than Oakalla, which is where he is,

as I say, at the present time.

REFURNISHING OF JUDGE'S OFFICE

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): A question to the Attorney-General. Will

the Attorney-General advise the House if his department had difficulty with

the purchasing commission with respect to furniture provided to the office of

Provincial Judge Stewart McMorran at Prince George in the amount of $34,421?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Mr. Speaker, some of the purchases of

necessary courthouse equipment sometimes originate from sources

outside of the — let's face it — regular channels. In this case

it was at the instance of the judge that certain things were

felt necessary, but the matter is now settled satisfactorily

and it was necessary equipment.

MR. FRASER: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister

investigate and report to the House whether or not this

furniture has been on rental from Van Hoy Stationers Ltd. of

Williams Lake at a monthly rental of $4,029, and could the

Minister at the same time advise the House whether or not the

rental for a period of six months will be credited to the full

purchase price?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: I'll look that up, Mr. Speaker.

EMPTY GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS

MR. G.F. GIBSON (North Vancouver-Capilano): Mr. Speaker, a

question to the Minister of Public Works, who just arrived.

With respect to the provincial government leased building which

has been standing empty on 137 A Street in Surrey, Mr. Speaker,

I would ask the Minister if he or his department was approached

by the municipality of Surrey last fall for the use of those

premises in welfare administration.

HON. W.L. HARTLEY (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker,

I'm not aware that we were, but I would be more than pleased to

take that as notice and check it out and report back to

you.

MR. GIBSON: On a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, perhaps he

could also inquire whether his department was aware that as a

result of their actions the taxpayers of Surrey and British

Columbia are paying $3,000 a month more than they should be in

having to rent alternate space.

MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Public Works.

Can the Minister confirm that his department leased, effective

April 1, 1974, 10,000 square feet at $3.25 a square foot

located in the 4400 block of Juneau Street in Burnaby?

HON. MR. HARTLEY: If we were able to get space at $3 a

foot, that's certainly a very good rate and certainly indicated

that our property division is doing a first-class job. You've

made mistakes in getting addresses before and tried to have us

leasing

[ Page 1809 ]

fried chicken joints, so we'll check this out. I'll take it

as notice, Mr. Speaker.

MR. BENNETT: While the Minister, who has been hiding from

the House lately, is back and while he is taking that as

notice, would he check why this building is still standing

empty a year later for an approximate waste of $34,000 spent on

rent while it sat empty during this last year?

HON. MR. HARTLEY: As always, I'd be pleased to give this

Legislature a full report.

MR. BENNETT: We're still waiting.

PURCHASE OF BLUE GABLES MOTEL

FOR MINIMUM SECURITY INSTITUTION

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): My question is to the Attorney-General.

Would the Attorney-General inform the House if the purchase of the

Blue Gables Motel in Terrace, at a purchase price of $ 195,000, was for

the benefit of his department to be used as a minimum security

institution in that location?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: We're interested in the area, but whether that has been completed is something I will have to take on notice.

MR. SMITH: Supplemental question. Is it the intention of your

department to use the Blue Gables Motel, when the transaction is

completed, as a minimum security institution?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Well, as I recollect — and I'll take it basically

on notice — we are looking for community correctional centres and that is the

object of the exercise of exploring possibilities in Terrace.

TRANSFER OF HANEY INMATES

R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): Supplemental to the Attorney-General, related

to the same idea. With the announcement that some of the inmates at the Haney

Correctional Centre will be sent to Oakalla — and one, as has been related earlier,

is already there — can the Attorney-General explain to the House how that relates

to the stated intention of the government to rehabilitate offenders? That would

seem to be a backward step rather than a forward step.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Yes, I entirely agree that the presence of young

people in Oakalla is to be avoided at all costs. We do have, of course, very

successful operating forestry camps. The bulk of the people, in Haney Correctional

will be able to be moved a very short distance. There's Pine Ridge with an operating

sawmill, Boulder Bay back on the lake, Stave Lake camp back on the lake, and

other facilities. This is basically the move we're making. I agree with you

about young people in Oakalla.

MR. McCLELLAND: Could the Attorney-General tell us the

urgency? What caused the urgency to close down Haney

Correctional until subsequent facilities are available?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: The facilities are available; we'll have

the placements by July 1. I have no reason to believe the

statement of intention we have made with respect to Haney

cannot be successfully completed with successful placement by

July 1.

MR. McCLELLAND: But some in Oakalla?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Yes. I mentioned older people.

FARM INCOME ASSURANCE PLAN

FOR GREENHOUSE GROWERS

MR. CURTIS: To the Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if the

Minister is in a position now to report any resolution to the

problem relating to approximately 130 greenhouse growers on the

lower mainland and southern Vancouver Island who thought they

had a firm farm income assurance plan. This has been the

subject of considerable concern in recent days. Is the Minister

working on it? Is it solved?

HON. D.D. STUPICH (Minister of Agriculture): I'm trying to

decide which of the questions to answer. I think I'll try the

one: "Is the Minister working on it?" Yes, the Minister is

working on it and hopes to be able to announce an agreement

very soon.

MR. CURTIS: Is this likely to be within a matter of

days?

HON. MR. STUPICH: I hope by the end of this week.

REVIEW OF ICBC

PAYMENTS TO RETIRED PERSONS

HON. MR. STRACHAN: In reply to a question asked of me by the

Member for North Okanagan (Mrs. Jordan) a week or so ago

regarding a letter I received April 12 from the Federated

Council of Elder Citizens of British Columbia regarding ICBC

payments to retired persons, I want to assure that Member that

the matter is being given very serious

[ Page 1810 ]

review with the objective mind of correcting that

situation.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): Would the Minister give

assurance to the House that, while this matter is under review

for senior citizens, the review will also include widows and

others receiving pensions from government sources for physical

reasons?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: We'll take a look at it.

REGULAR REVIEW OF

SENTENCES FOR VIOLENT CRIMES

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: A question to the Attorney-General. With

respect to appeals from sentences for murder and other violent

crimes, does the Attorney-General have a

section of his

department which reviews the sentences on a regular basis and

makes decisions with regard to whether an appeal should be

taken or not?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Yes, of course. In the case of capital

murder, the appeal is automatic. In the case of other appeals,

it would be the criminal officers in my department.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: Do I understand that on a regular basis

sentences are reviewed and the question of Crown appeals are

considered?

HON. MR. MACDONALD: Yes, I think the director of criminal

law would have that as part of his duties. To give the Hon.

Member in more depth as to the procedure — how they find about

what's current, when they have decisions, when they rely on the

local prosecutor and when they make the decision here in

Victoria — I'll be glad to make further enquiries.

AIR-SEA RESCUE

AND MEDICAL SERVICES FOR HERRING FLEET

MR. WALLACE: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the recent sinkings

of herring fish boats and the resolution which he received from

the United Fishermen and Allied Workers Union regarding

improved air-sea rescue services, I understand the Minister of

Health wrote to the federal Minister of National Health and

Welfare, Marc Lalonde. I wonder if there has been any

productive response from that letter?

HON. D.G. COCKE (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, we have

an agreement with the Department of National Defence and there

is a rescue co-ordination service in the area. It's not as

adequate as we would like to see it.

However, this year I'd like to say again that we will be having medical care

to the fishing fleet beginning, I believe, within the next month and during

the course of the heavy, heavy fishing period along the west coast.

MR. WALLACE: I take it, then, there has been no suggestion

from the federal authorities for any increased facilities or

personnel to deal with the increasing number of boats during

the tourist season and the summer months.

HON. MR. COCKE: I'm not aware of that, Mr. Member. I am

aware, however, that the Department of National Defence is now

beginning to bill us for our air-sea rescues and our emergency

service calls that they are making. We have had a rather large

bill recently.

Orders of the day.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

ESTIMATES: DEPARTMENT OF

MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO

On vote 269: Minister Without Portfolio, $402,657.

HON. A.A. NUNWEILER (Minister Without Portfolio): It is

indeed an honour and a privilege to be able to debate my

estimates for the forthcoming year. I want to congratulate our

government for the recognition they have given to the special

needs of the people in northern British Columbia whom I've had

the honour of representing since my appointment last July. In

addition, of course, I'm also a member of the Environment and

Land Use Committee and a director of our provincial British

Columbia Railway.

As a point of information, Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to

mention that the region of concern I am involved in is from the

Queen Charlotte Islands through to the Alberta border up near

Jasper, and also from the Cariboo through to the Yukon and

North West Territories boundary — a population of 200,000 and

approximately 500,000 square miles. It's an area that is unique

in this province, both geographically and climatically. The

people in the region, including the native people who live

there, have a deep affection for their area and do enjoy their

way of life.

But in spite of this, Mr. Chairman, recognition of northern

British Columbia and its unique features has often been very

slow in coming along. Although the former government made many

great statements and plans for developing the north with its

railway and with its hydro-electric dam project, the

unfortunate fact has been that this project merely served

[ Page 1811 ]

increase rather than to reduce the amount of dependency

northern people had on business and government agencies located

hundreds of miles to the south. Too often, it seems, the result

of industrial developments that went ahead with the....

MR. W.R. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): On a point of

order. Mr. Chairman, the other day you made a ruling where you

said Ministers were allowed to quote from a prepared text for

accuracy but were not allowed to read speeches in Committee of

Supply. This Minister, of course, appears to be reading a

prepared text which has already been distributed to the press

gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Already.

MR. BENNETT: Now, I would also like to find out the....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I think I get the Hon....

MR. BENNETT: I have a further point of order relating to the

parameters of the discussion of this portfolio. It says:

"Minister Without Portfolio." I would like to know, when

there's a Minister of nothing, if that means we have to

question him on nothing? The Minister has ascribed duties to a

portfolio that have never been authorized by this House. He has

ascribed duties that have something to do with an area he has

defined that have never been authorized by this House in a

portfolio of the central interior or the south or....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Rather than making a point of order, the Hon.

Leader of the Opposition should ask a question of the Minister

as to what his duties are.

MR. BENNETT: Well, I'm questioning two things: the reading

of his speech and the parameters of the discussion in

estimates.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The point of order in regard to the reading of

the speech: that point is well taken in the respect that no

Member should read his speech but rather should simply refer to

any written notes and speak extemporaneously, so far as this is

possible.

On the second point of order that was made: I think that the

Minister is indicating what his assignment is in the Cabinet or

what his responsibilities are; or he may do this. Therefore I

think we should listen to find out what he indicates his

responsibilities are.

MR. BENNETT: Well, a further point about the distribution to

the press.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I have no control over any

Member distributing any comments to the press. This is not a

matter for the committee.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Mr. Chairman,

on the same point of order. Perhaps it would be appropriate if

you could direct the Minister to distribute the speech so that

we could tell if he is reading it accurately. (Laughter.)

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): On the same point

of order. I think the committee has been offended this

afternoon with a speech which has been, as others indicate,

distributed outside this House. I sit here and nothing has come

to my desk from the Minister Without Portfolio. Surely the

Chair has an opinion on that and not just what takes place

outside the House. I speak, Mr. Chairman, of what takes place

inside the House. We have nothing in front of us — which

apparently has been distributed widely elsewhere.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. On the point of order, there is

no point of order. The Chair has no control over what any

Member may distribute outside this chamber. This is not

necessarily any connection between what he has distributed and

what he is going to say now. Perhaps we can hear the Minister

of Northern Affairs and find out what he is going to say.

MR. BENNETT: Well, Mr. Chairman, you just made the same

mistake of referring to the Minister Without Portfolio as the

Minister of Northern Affairs. I know of no such portfolio.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Thank you for drawing that to

my attention. The Minister Without Portfolio will continue his

remarks.

Interjections.

HON. D.G. COCKE (Minister of Health): Mr. Chairman, on a

point of order. The point of order is that the opposition are

trying their normal delaying tactics. They are forgetting the

fact that they had four Ministers Without Portfolio in the

former government. Now they are just trying to insult this new

Minister. Mr. Chairman, I would hope that they will just

contain themselves until the end of his speech. And as far as

delivering what he has to say to the press, that's his perfect

right, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I believe, on the Hon.

Minister's point of order, that there is no point of order.

Would the Hon. Minister Without Portfolio continue his

remarks about the wonderful north?

[ Page 1812 ]

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I must say I do

enjoy every minute of this, but I am rather concerned about the

objections raised against my trying to give the emphasis to the

people of northern British Columbia. Really, I do feel that

this is rather unfortunate. I would hope that the whole House

would also share that concern. I am sure that most of them do.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Interjections.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: He's a good friend of mine, too, as a

matter of fact.

Interjections.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: That's true.

I should also mention that I did not take the opportunity to

interject yesterday when I saw one of my neighbours, the Member

for South Peace River (Mr. Phillips), reading his speech. I

wouldn't care to do that. However, let us deal with my

estimates. I would appreciate it if you could give me the

opportunity to try and present some comments here, and I would

be very happy to respond to your questions later. I think that

this should be the procedure today as it has been in the

past.

Mr. Chairman, there are many people in government and

business who looked only at the final figure at the bottom of

the right-hand column in development — the balance sheet, the

black ink that was at the bottom of the right-hand column — assuming that everything was okay.

Really, Mr. Chairman, everything wasn't okay. The people who

live in the north resented the traditional way of handling the

development in their community. The election of this government

some three years ago was partly due to that resentment.

Therefore it has been a basic policy of this government to

provide meaningful recognition of the right of the people

living outside the population centres of this province to

determine their own needs and to be a part of the development

of their area.

You know, last week I was really quite proud to attend a

function in the community of Burns Lake to witness the first

100 graduates of the Andrews Bay logging school accept their

diplomas. Some of my colleagues were there, too. That was

really a remarkable difference that has been brought about, Mr.

Chairman. It is undeniably due to the faith this government has

in the people in the north and the native people in our

communities in the north being able to develop their own

future. I predict that we're going to see similar situations

throughout the region. I also predict: that in Babine Forest

Products, when it goes into operation, the local people of

Burns Lake for the first time will be sharing an experience to

run their own industry in their own community.

Clinton is another area where the people asked us to come in

and take a look at their situation, their difficulties, because

they believed there were enough resources in their area to

expand their industry to deal with their unemployment problem.

But they couldn't get the industry off the ground. With some

fine cooperation from the Minister of Economic Development

(Hon. Mr. Lauk) and his department, and the Minister of Lands

and Forests (Hon. R.A. Williams) and his department, Ainsworth

Lumber at Clinton is now under construction. We're looking

forward to its opening and operation in the near future.

Since then, Mr. Chairman, my small staff and I have been

involved.... (Laughter.)

Interjections.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: Very few. We've been involved in trying

to identify and to document the many, many needs that exist out

there, many needs that have built up in the north because of

past neglect, past problems, and to try and come up with

possible solutions to some of them.

We found in many instances a complete lack of background in

the way of information, information that this government was

not able to acquire when it came to office because it just

wasn't there. We as a government have been really and sincerely

committed to the principle of involving local people in making

a decision in their own community in going through this

process.

The second point has meant that we have spent more time

talking to local people than talking to the so-called experts

from the south. Of course, this means that we have to get

ourselves out of our offices and out into the communities to

talk to the people themselves. The format we have used, which

we call "community workshops," has proven to be a model

for any government. It truly means what it says; it says it

wants to consult the local people.

We're here to examine and report on the level of all

services to people in the community and direct possible changes

to policy and to put programmes into operation to make them

more responsive to the needs of the people of the north. To

date we have met with some 125 groups and probably three times

that many people in many communities throughout the whole

region since we started this community workshop programme in

December of last year.

We've met with municipal councils, school boards, resource

boards, teachers' groups, labour groups, business groups,

chambers of commerce, resource and recreation groups, native

people, industrial representatives, sportsmen, the general

public, and we have plans to visit almost every northern

community throughout the forthcoming year. We plan tentatively

to appear in the Peace River region next.

[ Page 1813 ]

These demands fall basically in various categories. Each

community is quite different. Some have severe unemployment

problems, some have severe housing problems, some need a thrust

in economic development — it goes on and on and on. Many

communities have a combination of all, particularly in those

communities that have a high degree of native people.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Who wrote that for

you — a social planner?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: We've talked to many people who have

pointed out to us that it was the first time anyone in any

government had actually come out and asked them for an opinion

about anything except at election time.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: They were truly amazed that this was

even possible, that it could even be considered by a

government. When this government promised to consult the people

of the north....

MR. PHILLIPS: Next election we're going to make you a

one-timer.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: The real intent is that this government

has gone out to consult the people of the north before making

decisions on alternatives on their behalf. You can imagine, Mr.

Chairman, that this has had a positive effect on these

communities. There is discussion, there is controversy and

there are some plain and simple demands. Those demands fall

basically into two categories: first, that the government do

something to solve the problem of northern people being

isolated from essential services, from health services,

schooling, housing, dental care — it goes on and on. Do you

realize, for instance, that even in my own riding, which is

more or less considered the Vancouver of the north, you need to

wait about six months before you can get an appointment for

non-emergency dental care.

Recreation is another factor. You can't go for a comfortable

walk in the park at 20 below zero Fahrenheit. With television

reception not being what it is down here, Mr. Chairman, there

is a greater need for community recreational facilities in the

north. I am pleased that, among other things, our work has

achieved to date the recognition of the fact by the Minister of

Recreation and Conservation (Hon. Mr. Radford). I wish to thank

him for that right here today. Because of the recognition of

the special needs of the north have begun to feel a little less

isolated now from the good things of life that many other

people in British Columbia take as a matter of course.

Mr. Minister of Recreation and Conservation, the people of

the north also thank you for it and they will continue to.

There is still a serious lack of communication, however,

among various government agencies, not just among provincial

agencies but also between the province and the federal

government and the various Crown corporations as well.

MR. PHILLIPS: What have you done for them?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: I haven't been here for 20 years, sir,

yet.

MR. PHILLIPS: You never will be either. Have you ever

thought of that?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: I'm not here to point accusing fingers

at anyone nor to dish out blame for that situation. I just want

to state that it is a fact of life in that region that

something about the distance and climate seems to work against

effective communication over such a large area. It is creating

a hardship — in some cases, a serious hardship — for the people

throughout the north. They would like to see some of that

changed. They recognize that only local contact with an agency

that is both responsible for and based in the north can do a

job like that.

As I have seen described in an

article in a northern

newspaper recently...

MR. PHILLIPS: Which one?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: ..."If someone is required to work in a

cold office, he is more likely to fix the furnace." That was in

the Queen Charlotte Islands Observer.

On the question of future development of the north, we have

found through our community workshops that there is a wide

diversity of opinion on the direction development should take.

There are those who want a full-speed-ahead approach to

industrial development with an after-the-fact consideration of

social planning and environmental impact. There are those who

don't want to see any kind of development at all. We have both

extremes.

Obviously, though, most people are somewhere in between

those two approaches. Almost everyone has told us that they

want more information and consultation before seeing anything

go ahead, before being asked to make a clear decision on

specific alternatives throughout their communities. They do not

want instant solutions cooked up in their absence by people

who, however well-meaning, are not acquainted with the local

conditions. We have seen too many examples of that in the past,

Mr. Chairman; too many examples of the equation that goes like

this: instant town + instant industry = instant

[ Page 1814 ]

disaster. It is only the disaster that has a tendency to

stick around a long time after the planners have gone off back

to Vancouver.

On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, everyone in the north

recognizes that you will only obtain better social services by

creating an increase in the industrial base. This is a common

thing in most communities: development of one sort or another

is inevitable. But it is this one sort or another that causes a

lot of controversy. People want to know what the alternatives

are and they want to be able to have their views known and

considered. I think they should. We accept that principle whole

heartedly. We are committed to the goal of trying to ensure

that social and industrial programmes for the north do in fact

work and are providing the people there with the necessary

tools to establish permanent communities with proper

services.

We are absolutely opposed to the return of the old

philosophy of just building industry and letting the community

look after itself. It just doesn't work to decide where

railroads and pulp mills will go by putting dots on the map and

letting the people just live under those dots without asking

those who will live under those dots whether they will like it

or not.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I point out that we have been getting

a fair amount of criticism, but we do welcome this kind of

criticism. No one from whom we have heard who doesn't know

anything about the north has understood. No one from whom we

have heard who knows anything about the north really disagrees

with either the concept or the need for an emphasis on the

north through a ministry.

The criticism we have received, Mr. Chairman, even from

those opposition Members for the north, is not that the job is

unnecessary, but that we have to do more to perform it

properly. My response to that is that considering the job that

needs to be done and the very short length of time my office

has existed — less than a year, of course — we've accomplished

far more than anyone believed possible. We've made more

progress in that time than was ever made before towards

righting some of the wrongs that were done by shortsighted

policies of the past.

I would like to hasten to add that I would agree with other

critics that there is still a long way to go, and I would ask

them to bear in mind that British Columbia has been very slow

in recognizing the needs of the people in the north. Other

western provinces are far ahead of us in terms of northern

affairs, and spend far more of their annual budget on the north

than we do — or will do if these estimates get passed. In fact,

I would challenge anyone who believes that northern affairs are

an unnecessary expense to the taxpayer to come up north with me

and try and sell that notion to the people who actually live

there.

Try and sell it to the rod and gun club in Terrace, which I talked to recently.

They told me that they were getting pretty annoyed at the way the hunting and

fishing regulations kept coming out after the season had already started. Things

really reached rock bottom once last year when they got a set of regulations

that restricted fishing in their most favoured stream. The regulations, actually,

had come out retroactively. You can imagine the fish they caught six weeks ago

all of a sudden finding out that it wasn't supposed to be caught retroactively.

He'd certainly be grateful to hear that.

Or sell it to the people in other areas of the north who sat

at home at night wishing that there was some better television.

I know some people might consider that a minor point or a funny

point, but I'd like to assure you there are hundreds of former

northern residents crowding the lower mainland who left the

north for just the simple reason of poor television reception.

Long winters can do that to you, Mr. Chairman.

You could ask the community of Terrace, as well, Mr.

Chairman, which is sitting there today watching its lumber

industry get more and more hard pressed for logs while less

than 20 miles away, in the valley towards Kitimat, prime timber

is being stripped bare by the huge southern forest companies,

taken out and dropped into the salt chuck and moved down to the

south, when at the same time the industry in the community is

starving for timber. This has been going on for years. A real

resource disaster committed against Terrace by an agreement

which we have inherited.

Terrace is actually now within five to 10 years of running

out of timber because the former government decided to over-log

the area rather than force the timber companies to build a new

road. They doubled the annual allowable cut being taken out of

what was supposed to have been a sustained-yield area.

Rather than face and resolve the Nishga land claim, they

combined this area with the existing area and doubled the cut

on the adjacent area to Terrace just to prevent that type of

problem and also to prevent having logging companies build

roads into the distant area. Consequently Terrace is

practically running out of timber. I would like to assure you,

Mr. Chairman, we are at work now to make sure that they are not

going to run out of timber, and I believe that is in your

riding, Mr. Chairman.

Speaking of resources, our government has adopted the

principle of integrated resource management as a basic formula

throughout the north. Through close cooperation with the

Environment and Land Use Committee, of which I am a member, we

are currently conducting a full examination of resource

potential in the north, including recreational, park, fish and

wildlife values. This is something that has never been done

before, and it is absolutely vital. If we are to proceed

rationally with any kind of programme of development of

resources

[ Page 1815 ]

in the area, we must take these values into careful

consideration.

By the end of this year we will already have begun to

receive the first returns from these examinations, and we will

be talking to people in various communities to discuss the

direction we should proceed from there.

We have been working on the problem of upgrading facilities

and services on the British Columbia Railway in northern areas,

where so often our former government tried to get away with the

cheapest solution possible — a policy, I might add, that we are

now finding is resulting in three times the cost to try and

upgrade them. Everything now seems to cost three times as much

as it would have if it had been right in the first place.

Another example. I am involved in a negotiation with the

Stuart-Trembleur native band to try and reach a just settlement

of their claim on the British Columbia Railway right-of-way

that cuts through 13 reserves near Fort St. James. This is a

prime example of the slap-dash, after-the-fact methods that

were applied by the former government in dealing with northern

people, particularly native people. There was the attitude that

goes: "Industry comes first; people can fend for themselves."

They put the railway through all 13 reserves with no fixed

agreement for compensation to the native bands, almost ruined

the local environment in the construction process and caused

terrible difficulties among those natives who are trying to

maintain their traditional way of life. We have now inherited

the responsibility, although I want to say that I welcome that

opportunity, and also the responsibility. We've already made

some initial progress and hopefully we can reach a satisfactory

solution to such a disgraceful injustice.

This is not to say that everything in the north is either frozen

solid or bad. There are many wonderful things in the north. There's a

wonderful environment.

There are many things that people there are proud of and enjoy very

much. Our fishing and our hunting, our winter sports, the high spirits

of our people and their willingness to share with others are very

precious things. But we want to make sure that our natural resources

will work to our benefit up there as well as benefit people from

elsewhere. We are determined not to return to the careless

laissez-faire attitude that wasted so much of our precious north

country in a blind pursuit of riches, riches that too often turned out

to be imaginary.

With this budget we intend to take another step toward

ensuring that the people of the north are more real partners in

the wealth and enjoyment this province is giving to so many

citizens who live elsewhere. I look at it as an investment in

the future of this province, a future that we in the north

intend to share in both a meaningful and a lasting way.

MR. W.R. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Once again we

have the Minister Without Portfolio trying, with his illusions

of grandeur, to masquerade as the Minister from the north. Now

I've been to the north, and nobody up there considers that he

represents their concerns. The strong case he made for calling

himself the Minister for northern affairs was that they had a

weak MLA in Skeena and the Skeena Rod and Gun Club were

concerned because the local MLA wasn't representing them, that

the MLA from Prince Rupert was incompetent and that the MLA

from Omineca wasn't representing his area. And I agree. I've

just visited those areas, and he's right.

MR. D.E. LEWIS (Shuswap): You should hear what they're

saying about you.

Interjections.

MR. BENNETT: Now here we have a very good reason put forth

by the Minister Without Portfolio for a Minister from the

north, someone who could cover up for weak MLAs. But the people

in those constituencies, really, are making their own decisions

on how to make up for the inadequacies of their local

representatives, and they're going to replace them at the next

election. That's what they're going to do. They don't need the

Minister Without Portfolio from Fort George, and a $400,000

budget, whose sole function is to be the NDP public relations

man for the weak northern seats because the local Members

haven't been able to solve the problems or overcome the

programmes and the initiatives that have hurt the north by this

present government.

The Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources (Hon. Mr.

Nimsick), and his Bill 31, has hurt the north. The people in

Stewart and the people in Smithers will remember this Minister

and this government, and they're not going to be swayed by the

fact that the government has made a Minister Without Portfolio

from Fort George. They resent the fact that $400,000 of the

taxpayers' money is used for the simple expediency of being a

public relations effort for a crumbling government that hasn't

solved the problems. We have mounting unemployment.

I was in Terrace two weeks ago: empty houses; houses they

can't build; people complaining about being laid off; no

jobs.

MR. PHILLIPS: Empty office space.

MR. BENNETT: People with families wondering how they're

going to educate their families, or clothe them, or feed them,

and they're not going to be satisfied with the type of

presentation made by that Minister Without Portfolio in this

Legislature today, trying to justify this further waste of

public money.

[ Page 1816 ]

This government will do anything, and spend any amount, to

try and get re-elected. It's a disgrace and it's a misuse of

public funds, and that Minister in identifying the problem is

saying that the Member for Skeena (Mr. Dent), who gets $24,000

a year, and the Member for Omineca (Mr. Kelly) and the Member

for Prince Rupert (Hon. Mr. Lea), who's also a cabinet

Minister, don't have the ability to represent the area.

Now we have a cabinet Minister from Prince Rupert. This

Minister Without Portfolio has suggested that they can't

represent their area. I agree — they don't represent the area,

and the further spending of $400,000 on the Minister of nothing

is not doing anything for the taxpayers.

MR. PHILLIPS: He doesn't represent our area.

MR. BENNETT: Mr. Chairman, I was hoping that this Minister

would be able to identify something that this portfolio

does.

MR. PHILLIPS: I'll tell you, he doesn't represent your area

either.

HON. MR. COCKE: Tell us about your $4 million, Bill.

MR. BENNETT: Mr. Chairman, I was hoping this Minister would

say that as Minister Without Portfolio he fulfils a function,

even if it's building no houses such as the Minister of no

housing doesn't, or if it's messing up the education system,

like the Minister of Education. But he didn't identify any

single series of programmes except that he wants to travel, he

wants to spend money, he wants to act as an alternative to the

local MLAs who are not doing their job in the areas of Skeena

and Omineca and Prince Rupert, and I think the public, who have

identified this as just another waste of public funds in the

north, are correct when they say that not only those MLAs but

also the Minister for Fort George (Hon. Mr. Nunweiler) and

every Minister and every Member of the NDP from the interior of

this province will disappear after the next election.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): Mr. Chairman, we listened with

great interest to that prepared text circulated to the press,

the title on it being, of course, "Notes for the Estimates

Speech." It was indeed that — nothing to do really with

estimates, but it was a speech.

I'd like to ask the Minister a few questions. He has an

enormous staff at the present time, some $400,000 worth of

staff. He made this speech, which was prepared carefully, and

he was quite unable to indicate what all these people really

were doing. In fact, he just simply didn't do it.

I've checked through some of the press releases that have been handed out

by this Minister and I can tell you what one person happens to be doing — the

public liaison officer — just by quoting from the press releases. This one is

dated April 14; it is un-numbered, but that's the date. It talks almost exclusively

about the previous government and it runs down the previous government. Let

me quote just a few of the things: "Former resource Minister Ray Williston decided

instead to combine two TFLs into one unit, et cetera, and wrecked the principle

of sustained yield over an entire area." It goes on to talk about "the previous

government's shortsighted policy in the region" and it talks about "the policy

of expediency followed by the previous government" in allocating timber rights.

I could read the whole thing — it's all along that line — but this adds in how

this government is determined to protect the economy, et cetera.

I'd like to know what a public servant, paid for with public

money, is doing writing political press releases. That is

nothing but a political press release and when they put at the

bottom of it the standard line, which is, "for further

information, please contact Derry McDonell, Public Liaison

Officer, 562-8131, Local 350," 1 wonder what this

Minister's office is being financed for. Straight propaganda

coming out at public expense.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: Dunsky could do it cheaper.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, Dunsky could probably do the whole

business cheaper. I know Mr. McDonell is obviously working

under instructions. It's not his fault; it's the direct fault

of this Minister for having an office set up with public money

simply for propaganda purposes.

I'd like to just quote another choice little item that

attracted my eye. This is another news release, April 3. And

here's our friend, the Minister of northern affairs — or the

Minister Without Portfolio responsible for northern affairs —

saying what a great thing it would be if Prince George got a

steel mill. The title of it is: "Prince George Considered for

Steel Mill." I'd just like to quote one paragraph for you to

indicate the depth that this matter is dealt with in this press

release. I'm quoting the centre of page 2: "'It appears likely

that the major portion of the international market will have to

be reached by ship,' said Nunweiler, 'and this puts Prince

George in an awkward position."'

Now I don't know what they're going to do, whether or not

they're going to put a canal along the railway line in from

Prince Rupert and wipe out Prince Rupert as a port. But I would

like to agree with our friend from Prince George. Indeed, if a

tunnel won't do it, a canal might, and if he's going to try and

overcome this awkward position that Prince

[ Page 1817 ]

George finds itself in, he's going to have to spend a great

deal more money.

That's just an example of just how great these press

releases are that are coming out at public expense. They really

are, Mr. Chairman, an absolute disgrace. We are spending

$400,000 plus — I think it's $402,000-odd — and we are getting

that type of statement, namely that Prince George is in an

awkward position for shipping facilities. I don't think we're

getting our money's worth when that's the type of result from

this vast empire which is being established under the heading

of this Minister.

Now I'd like to say a word or two, Mr. Chairman, about the

B.C. Rail contracts and the B.C. Rail extensions that were

talked about by this Minister.

The fact is that much of the construction has been done

since this government came to power. It's not all something

that you can hand over to the previous government, as he

attempted to do in his speech. The previous government left

office getting on to three years ago; much of this construction

has taken place since then. If this Minister knew his stuff as

a railroad man and as a politician, surely it would have been

possible to make some variation in those plans so that we would

not have had the continuation of construction in areas which

this Minister indicates it should not have gone into.

I'd like to refer to an

article from September 26, 1974,

The Vancouver Sun , page 95, by Moira Farrow. She was in

Smithers at the time. It says: "Dateline: Smithers." She is

interviewing a guide by the name of Tommy Walker. Here's a

quotation from what the man said:

"'I think the public should be made aware of the ruthless destruction of the natural environment and

especially some of our most beautiful wilderness timber land,'

said Walker.

"Walker, 70 years old, said that he is astonished that the railway extension runs through the very

deep snow country where the snow often lingers on until June.

'The railway seems to go nowhere. It feeds nothing,' he stated.

'They have wrecked the country with no justification, but

people don't seem to realize that."'

That is a quote, as I mentioned, from this

article by Moira

Farrow in September, 1974, more than two years after the

election that defeated the previous government. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to inform the Minister that we were

very unimpressed by his statements regarding the faults and

problems of the north being simply those of the previous

administration.

Let me state that the previous government did not live up to

its commitments to the north. That is, I think, why their

Members were defeated.

Bob McConnell, the editor of The Province, in May 25,

1974, had an

article entitled: "NDP Northern Vision Faces Moment of Truth." He pointed out that the

previous government's Members were lost up there because they

had not lived up to their promises. He goes on to point out

that the idea that the north, and the northwest in particular,

is to become the focus of B.C.'s economic growth simply isn't a

likely thing. He quotes Alastair Crerar, the director of the

government's Environment and Land Use Committee secretariat,

who told a group of economists: "Northwestern B.C. really

hasn't the answer to any economic problems but its own." Mr.

Crerar mentioned that the growth in the area, mainly in primary

industries, "won't do anything more than keep pace with the

natural increase of the present population."

The

article in turn talks of Alcan, which we know has one of

the more developed communities in that area. The labour

turnover there is 70 per cent and rising. Clearly the

government has no solution even in a town which has been

planned very carefully and with plenty of social services.

Clearly the government has had no solution to the problem of

people leaving and moving to other communities. It's not just a

question, Mr. Minister, as you seem to indicate, of the

faint-hearted wanting to get better television reception and a

slightly easier winter.

We haven't heard much from you on this. In your speech you

simply didn't give any details of what bold new steps you are

able to take to make sure there isn't this enormous labour

turnover. Surely if this happens at Kitimat, the problem is

infinitely worse in smaller communities, in particular, mining

communities — what mining communities there are left in the

north.

One other point I would like to mention is that alluded to

by the Minister when he talked about the protection of the

environment in the north. I've mentioned the railway. I'd like

to point out that the government's own people, the Recreation

and Conservation people of the government in the north, feel

that things are moving at the present time and last year so

fast that they can't really keep up with what's going on

despite the increases in manpower which the Minister of

Recreation and Conservation (Hon. Mr. Radford) boasted about in

the House a short time ago.

Again, a quotation from Moira Farrow, a day before the

article I mentioned a moment ago. She was interviewing members

of the Department of Recreation and Conservation. On page 6 we

find this quotation.

"'For instance, we have had one man working almost entirely

on the BCR construction but he can't be in more than one place at a time, Hatler

said. 'The BCR is a sore point with us because it's going through some of the

finest game country in the province without adequate information about the

[ Page 1818 ]

wildlife that is being affected. I believe the railway could

have been better routed, but the government just tells us it has to go along

the originally planned route because so much money has already been spent on

planning. There are ill-placed culverts, slides in the rivers, all kinds of

things like that. It isn't a very nice operation. You can go to the railway

and slap the wrists of the contractor or subcontractor, but the point is, we

shouldn't have to slap wrists in the first place'."

That, I think, puts paid to the idea that somehow or another

all of these problems are those of the previous administration.

Sure money was spent on planning, but this government and the

Members of this government from the north came down here and we

heard them, particularly in the first budgets and throne

speeches, talking about how much they knew about the north.

Surely if they knew anything about the problems of the area

they could have diverted the construction or changed the plans

or ameliorated the problem that has been discussed in the

articles that I have quoted. The fact is that the government

proceeded just as blindly in implementing these plans as the

previous government did in drawing up those plans. In fact, I

think that the previous Minister of Lands, Forests and Water

Resources, Mr. Williston, probably would have been able to

implement the existing plans as of 1972 a great deal better and

with a great deal less environmental damage than the present

Member for Fort George.

Mr. Chairman, the other question is the Indian lands

question in northern B.C. Today's newspaper, The

Province, the 29th of this month, has this little item:

"Indians Blockade BCR Line."

"Stewart Lake — Indian unrest over the white man's government..."

That's the way they describe the NDP: white man's

government.

"...broke out anew Monday when natives blockaded the

British Columbia Railway line from Fort St. James north to the

end of steel.

"Members of the Stewart-Trembleur band said the blockade

would stay until the provincial government is ready to talk

with band members over land settlement claims.

"Edward John, district councillor for the band at Tache

Village on the shores of Stewart Lake, 100 miles north of

Prince George, said that seven years ago the government said it

would negotiate a three-for-one land swap for right-of-way

through band lands and a $6 million cash settlement.

"Since then, John said in a telephone interview Monday

night, the government has broken its promises and has failed to send representatives

to talk with the Indians.

"Nunweiler (Minister Without Portfolio) in charge

of northern affairs for the B.C. Government) was supposed to be here today,'

John said. 'He didn't show up but sent two of his flunkeys. We don't want to

talk to flunkeys. We want to talk to someone with some authority,' John said.

'Until we get some, satisfaction the blockade will stay.'"

He didn't realize, of course, that this Minister has no

authority, but he will find that out once he starts dealing

with this Minister.

The

article goes on to say:

"When asked how many trains pass over this

section of the

BCR, John said: 'Too damned many, but usually two a week each

way.'"

A final line:

"Officials of BCR in Vancouver would not comment Monday

night."

Well, you bet they won't comment They know this is a policy

decision of the government to proceed, regardless, on Indian

land claims. They know this government has had virtually three

years to make some changes and hasn't done it.

So the Stewart-Trembleur band has no option but to blockade

the BCR to try and bring this problem to the attention of a

government which seems to believe that if it doesn't

acknowledge a problem exists then the problem doesn't

exist.

[Mr. Lockstead in the chair.]

This Minister was set up — or his department — or I

shouldn't say department — this northern affairs group that

he's got going, which he hopes will be a department, was set up

precisely to deal with problems of that nature. If it was set

up for any purpose whatsoever except the glorification of the

Minister and the attempt to win one seat in northern B.C., it

was set up precisely to cut across jurisdictional boundaries of

different Ministries and go right to the heart of the problem.

Here in today's paper we have classic proof that at least as

far as the Indians are concerned, at least as far as the B.C.

Rail is concerned, the department is doing nothing whatsoever.

The only thing we're getting out of it are press releases

giving us such factual information as the fact that Prince

George is not on tidewater. I think that if we're going to

spend $402,000 we should do a great deal more.

Mr. Chairman, I'm sure this Minister is very busy. I'm sure that with this

extensive staff of his, these many people, he's having a lot of trouble keeping

them all busy and running after them and attempting to do things to try and

keep them all going. I'm sure they're working. But we're in the old situation,

Mr. Chairman, where the less there is to do the harder they are trying to find

work to justify their existence. And that's precisely what is happening now.

That's

[ Page

1819 ]

why we're inundated with press releases; that's why

the staff has all the time in the world to prepare, word for word, the

estimates speech of this particular Minister, which I don't believe

even anybody else has come forward with in such detail.

They're keeping themselves busy, they're trying to earn their pay,

but the fact is they aren't doing it because they do not know what

their objectives are and because the amount of authority given this

Minister is close to zero. We have absolutely nothing for last year,

and yet this year we've got $247,657 worth of salary — straight hiring

of approximately one dozen people to churn out press releases as absurd

as the one that I read out to you, Mr. Chairman.

In addition they've got office expenses of $25,000, travel expenses of $40,000,

printing and publications of $25,000, an advertising budge t of $5,000 and consulting

fees and expenses of $50,000.

Well, Mr. Chairman, if we judge by the press releases that have come

out, if we judge by the Minister's statement to this House, this money

is totally wasted and we certainly should not grant this Minister this

vote.

MR. H.D. DENT (Skeena): Mr. Chairman, I wasn't sure whether I was going to speak or not until I heard the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bennett).

However, after I heard that line of drivel from the Leader of the

Opposition, I just had to get up and say a few words. I also noticed

the somewhat nervous laugh of the Hon. Member for South Peace River

(Mr. Phillips) — that was unmistakable. He lives up there and he has

been around a bit and he appreciates a little bit of the impact the

Minister Without Portfolio responsible for northern affairs is having.

I have to laugh...the Socreds have really been setting the

country on fire up there. At a meeting in Smithers the other

day, I think about 30-odd people turned out to hear the Hon.

Member for South Peace River. Some of our NDP members went

along to heckle him, but they felt so sorry for him that they

decided to applaud him politely to show the Smithers

hospitality.

Also, the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition was in Terrace.

Yes, he was. I think he had almost 150 people out. Almost 150

in Terrace — drawing from Terrace and Kitimat. The Premier was

there some time ago, and he invariably draws upward of 500.

Again, some of our Members left our own party that we were

having and decided to go over and listen for a while. They sat

in on the meeting and they were not impressed. They were a

little worried before they went. They thought, "Well, you know,

maybe the Socreds are really coming to life," et cetera,

et cetera. But when they got there, they realized that there

wasn't too much to worry about.

MR. PHILLIPS: We've got you worried.

MR. DENT: I wanted to talk a little bit about the record in Skeena,

just in passing. The Socreds, for the 20 years they were in power, were great

ones for promises. They promised many things in Skeena. They promised a bridge

across the river in Terrace. They promised that bridge every election for 20

years. I think they promised a few other things, like a new

hospital in Hazelton. They promised maybe a new secondary

school for Thornhill. They had a few things they promised, but

they never delivered. There were very, very few things

delivered.

I just want to give a very brief list of the things that have been delivered by this government since 1972.

There was $20 million of highway construction.

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): How are you coming with the tunnel?

MR. DENT: Every bridge west of Terrace has been replaced by concrete-and-steel bridges; every single bridge

has been replaced, not just before an election but as a matter

of an ongoing highway construction programme.

MR. FRASER: Get back in the chair.

MR. DENT: That is just one item. There was $4.5 million for

one bridge alone in Terrace. I noticed Scotty Wallace noticed

that bridge under construction. It is not an election-promise

bridge. It is being built. It is actually being built.

Interjections.

MR. DENT: It will be finished, Mr. Member for Oak Bay (Mr.

Wallace), by Christmas. You come up at Christmas and you can

drive across that new bridge costing $4.5 million, built by

this government. Yet the Hon. Leader of the Opposition said

that this MLA and this government have not done anything for

Skeena.

We've replaced every single one of the bridges. There is a

bridge at Kitwanga, another $3 million structure that is

scheduled to be finished this fall.

Now we can just move to hospitals. There is not a single

hospital in Skeena constituency that hasn't either been rebuilt

or is in the process of being rebuilt or greatly improved. A

new hospital in Smithers is now completed. I have the honour of

opening that bridge on May 10.

MR. FRASER: Bridge?

MR. DENT: Oh, pardon me, hospital — a $2.5 million or $3

million hospital, a new one for

[ Page 1820 ]

Smithers. And a new hospital in Hazelton is now under

construction, just started. A $1 million addition was made to

the Kitimat hospital. An entire floor that was a shell has now

been completely refurbished. We expect that the hospital in

Terrace will soon be under construction. Skeena View Hospital

is now scheduled to be replaced with a new 150-bed unit. The

thing is now in the works. All the hospitals, every single

hospital in Skeena, is either now being rebuilt, about to be

rebuilt or in the works. Yet they say that this government is

not doing anything. The Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Cocke) has

done more for that riding of Skeena than any previous Minister

of Health ever dreamed of.

MR. FRASER: Order! You're out of order.

Interjection.

MR. DENT: I am coming to the Minister Without Portfolio in a

minute, and you will see what he has done.

Under the Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly), a brand

new auditorium was used for the first time for the music

festival last week, a beautiful auditorium costing nearly $1

million. All of the big shots in Terrace were out. I did get an

invitation to attend, but unfortunately, we didn't have too

much control over that. That is okay. I sat in the back row in

my little corner seat, happy as can be that the people of

Terrace have this beautiful auditorium now that they can use

for fine arts and other purposes in conjunction with the senior

secondary school.

A new secondary school has been built in Thornhill and is

now in use, having the biggest gymnasium now in the north. This

is for the kids. Some of the kids in Thornhill aren't too well

off. They really feel proud of that new school.

A new secondary school is scheduled for Hazelton this summer

and an addition to a new secondary school in Smithers. The

former government only said: "We don't have the money, we've

got to cut back, we can't do this, we can't do that." The

result was that there was a tremendous shortage of school

construction. This Minister of Education has made up that lack,

and it has been done very adequately for Skeena.

Let's move on to the Minister of Lands, Forests and Water

Resources (Hon. R.A. Williams).

MR. FRASER: You're out of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, we should be discussing the

administrative responsibilities of the Minister.

MR. DENT: The point is well taken. I was only using this as

a prelude to the work done by this Minister. However, the point is well taken. I could go on

for hours bragging out of order, but everything has been done

in Skeena. I resent the words of the Hon. Leader of the

Opposition in this respect.

The Minister of Northern Affairs....

MR. FRASER: He's not the Minister of Northern Affairs!

MR. DENT: The Minister Without Portfolio responsible for

northern affairs. I thank the Hon. Member for Cariboo for

making this very important distinction.

This Minister has been working very, very effectively, and

very quietly, right through the north, and certainly in my

constituency. I will just give you one example of the kind of

work he has done.

We have in our part of the country, in the Kispiox Valley,

probably an example of what we face in the whole province.

There are the old-timers living in the Kispiox Valley, there

are two Indian reserves, there are the newcomers — you might

say the young generation trying to get away from the big cities

in the United States and coming up to settle. Some people call

them hippies; I say they are just new settlers. They are really

no different from the old settlers except they have just

arrived. They are in a group, more or less — not by themselves,

but they came together as a group. Then there are the

industries in Hazelton which depend on the valley to some

extent for their source of raw material for the mill and so

on.

So we have a fairly typical situation there. You have the

developmentalists versus the anti-developmentalists, and a

confrontation type of situation where there is no quarter

taken. Some are full-steam ahead, and the others are full-steam

stop.

The Minister of northern affairs came into this situation,

and there was a meeting held in the Kispiox Hall, and he had

some members of the staff with him. Very quietly and very

calmly he allowed everybody to say their piece. They tried to

explain things that the government was doing. The result was

that by the end of the meeting people were actually talking to

each other. They were actually beginning to talk over ideas on

their merits rather than on a confrontation approach. Instead

of saying: "I'm for development," or "I'm against

development," they were beginning to say: "Let's talk

about it in terms of the best interests of this community, and

of the whole province." They were not only thinking of their

own valley; they were thinking of the needs of the province as

a whole and the north as a whole.

That's what that Minister did. That's the kind of thing he

inspired, with this group: a realistic discussion about what

should be done, rather than a confrontation. The old government

thrived on confrontations; they promoted confrontations.

Every

[ Page 1821 ]

time they could set up something to attack, they

would do it. They set up the working man as a target and blamed

everything on the trade unionists, blamed everything on the protesters,

blamed everything on this, set up confrontations.

This government, through this Minister, is attempting to undo that

sort of thing in the north and create a new atmosphere of consultation,

ensuring that everyone gets adequate information, that they pull

together in the north and that they realize the responsibilities to the

rest of the

province, but the south also has to realize its responsibility to the

north.

I think the job this Minister has done is excellent along that line.

MR. FRASER: Mr. Chairman, that was quite a discourse we just

got from the Member for Skeena about all the wonderful things this

Minister has done.

I don't happen to share his views.

One thing he didn't say anything about was the tunnel he's building

from Vancouver to Terrace, or Prince Rupert. He should have got that in

there as well.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, the people of the province are certainly

concerned about this Minister Without having a budget of $402,657 to do

nothing, as he has no specific duties. The salary is $45,000, and the

travelling expense, Mr. Chairman, is $40,000 for this Minister. Believe

me, they are concerned.

Dealing with the other appointments he has, he announced today that

he is chairman of the Environment and Land Use Committee, and then took

that back and said he is going to be the chairman, but right now he's

just an ordinary member of it, but he is also a director of the British

Columbia Railroad.

The reason I don't think he is very effective, just mentioning the

British Columbia Railroad while we are on the subject, is that we had a

serious work stoppage on that railroad from November 26, 1974, until

January 7, 1975. The whole central-northern interior was upset and

concerned, and a lot of the mayors of the communities involved and hit

by this work stoppage came to Victoria to meet, but you couldn't find

the Minister Without — you couldn't find him anywhere. He wasn't

available. He was here the day before and left. If you think that is

doing his duty as a BCR director, I certainly don't. I was here. We had

to end up seeing the Minister of Labour (Hon. Mr. King), who got fired

for the way he handled the work stoppage. So I would like to hear from

the Minister Without on what he has to say about that. There was

certainly no activity from his point where there should have been in

that serious stoppage that affected his riding and a lot of other

ridings in the central interior, and still is.

I want to ask this Minister a question or two. We've made it quite clear in this House that he is the

Minister Without Portfolio. Mr. Chairman, I've got a letter

here on his stationery that says on the heading of the letter:

"Minister Without Portfolio, Northern Affairs." That's on the

mast of the letterhead. But on the back in the signing of the

letter appears the signature of the Minister, "Mr. A.A.

Nunweiler" and typed below that, "Minister for Northern

Affairs". I think this Minister owes this House an apology, and

also for any letters that have gone out under that signature,

because he is definitely deceiving the people he is writing to. And he writes hundreds and hundreds

of letters, believe me. None of the letters have any content in

them except the fact to distort the portfolio. He should

apologize to this House. We've never voted money for the

Minister of northern affairs and he's signing himself the

"Minister for Northern Affairs." I take strong exception to

that. I would like him to apologize and tell this House that

he's going to desist from signing his letters in that way.

He mentioned the boundaries of his jurisdiction. I think he

mentioned the boundary of Cariboo. Well, Mr. Chairman, Cariboo

is quite happy with their presentation. We don't particularly need any of our

consulting staff and so on, so just move your boundary up to

your own riding. You can deal with the rest of them, but stay

out of Cariboo.

He mentioned, apparently when I was out of the house, that this government saw that Ainsworth sawmills

established in or near Clinton. Let's get the record straight here. It just happens that Ainsworth sawmills

are one of the best independent operators in the northern or

central interior, and Ainsworth sawmills are the ones who went

in there and invested all the money. There's no government money or anything else

involved in it, if that's the message he as trying to put over.

The other thing this Minister is noted for: he's the man who has instituted task force-it is in the central and

northern interior. You, Mr. Chairman, when you were there

speaking on behalf of this Minister, certainly pointed that

out. There are meetings after meetings but nothing is ever

resolved; you can go to meetings but nothing ever gets

resolved.

Something else this Minister hasn't been doing — I take exception to

that — his attendance in this House is about 30 per cent of sitting

time. I have to assume that he's up in his Prince George office, but I

ponder whether he is. Maybe he would have something to say about that.

His attendance is not better, I would guess, than 35 per cent of the

sittings that we've had.

He gets up there to put over the impression that everything was

terrible under the 20 years of the prior government. You know, the

Prince George citizens that he represents will be sure happy to hear

that. I would just like to show you the other side of

[ Page 1822 ]

the coin. In 1952 the great big city of Prince George in his

Fort George riding had a population of 10,000 people. It's a

thriving community, and it's done exceptionally well. The

former MLA was the man who made sure that happened. Don't ever

forget it for one minute. Don't give us your old socialist bunk

about all the failures.... There are lots of failures in this

outfit. This administration has had more failures in government

policy in two and a half years than the prior 10

administrations in British Columbia.

MR. LEWIS: Oh, you're kidding. You're kidding.

[Mr. Dent in the chair.]

MR. FRASER: The Member for Omineca (Mr. Kelly) — I want to have a word

or two with him. He's so happy with this Minister. They're so upset with this

Member for Omineca that they had an indignation meeting up there. The Member

showed up — I'll give him credit for that — but his response was: "If you're

so upset with me, get up a petition and I'll resign." Do you know what happened?

They got a petition up. In the last election he got 2,600 votes to win that

riding. Do you know how many signed the petitions? There were 3,200. Nobody

knows what happened to the Member for Omineca and his petition, but he got more

names on the petition asking him to get out than he got votes in the 1972 election.

This Member....

Interjections.

MR. FRASER: He should have quit and gone back to Fraser

Lake.

Interjection.

MR. FRASER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is just a waste of public funds

— the $402,000. He has no authority, he can't achieve anything, and I certainly

won't be voting for this salary vote.

HON. G.R. LEA (Minister of Highways): Mr. Chairman, first of

all, I'd like to ask a question. Is it permissible to talk

about the Minister of northern affairs or the department of

northern affairs now? I was wondering, because I know that for

the last two years the Hon. Member for South Peace River (Mr.

Phillips) had a bill presented in this House asking for us to

do that. It's not on this year, eh?

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): You wouldn't accept

it.

HON. MR. LEA: I just wondered. Have you changed your policies — the

Social Credit, Mr. Chairman — of whether or not we should have the north represented

by a Minister? When they didn't think we were going to do it, Mr. Chairman,

they were sure calling for us to do it; now we've done it, they say: "We don't

like it. We don't like it anymore." You can't have it both ways.

Interjections.

HON. MR. LEA: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bennett)

mentioned that the people in the north are dissatisfied with

the MLAs who represent them. Well, in the north we ran as a

group, a group of NDPers in the last election, saying that the

north had been neglected for 20 years, that we should vote them

out and put someone in who will pay some attention to them. And

guess what? The people in the north felt that they were

neglected. Otherwise, they wouldn't have voted us in and the

Social Credit out. But they did do that. They were not

satisfied with what was happening — or, rather, satisfied with

what wasn't happening.

MR. FRASER: They'll never repeat that mistake, I'll tell you

that.

HON. MR. LEA: No, they probably won't. They'll keep

government in.

What has been happening in the north? Through the Minister

of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Lorimer).... I'd like to

mention that all of these programmes that are going on in the

north now under the Minister of Lands, Forest and Water

Resources (Hon. R.A. Williams), under Highways, under Economic

Development, and under Municipal Affairs are all being

co-ordinated by the Minister Without Portfolio, every one of

them. Other provinces did that prior to 1972, but we only had a

chance to do it once we were elected government, which we did

do. The north does have special problems, does need special

co-ordination, and that's exactly the kind of leadership that

the Minister is giving. They know it, too, or they wouldn't be

so worried. They know.

MR. PHILLIPS: You're the biggest problem.

HON. MR; LEA: Now I'd like to go into some specifics,

especially for my riding. Is the north getting a better break

under this government with a Minister Without Portfolio, who is

nevertheless responsible for co-ordinating the affairs of the

north and has had a great input into cabinet and to caucus on

some of the problems that are facing specifically the people of

the north?

Now we've know that for some time there have been inequities

between the southern parts of this province and the northern

part, and I think that other Members of other parties who have

come from the north will go along with me and say that that's

true.

[ Page 1823 ]

You can't even belong to a fraternal lodge in the north

without knowing that people in the south are getting a better

break than those in the north. It happens in every part of

living in the north. They haven't had a break up there. They're

getting it now.

Just to give you an example, one of the areas of criticism

the official opposition was talking about was that the north,

or generally the municipalities and the smaller areas — which

basically is the north — were not getting an even break in

terms of the taxpayers' money that's being spent by this

government for those small municipalities in the north. Well, I

have some figures here of bills that have been passed to aid

smaller communities in the north, and also policies of this

government that have been so designed to aid northern

communities and, consequently, people in the north. I'd like to

speak about areas I'm closest to. So I'll speak about my own

riding and the three municipalities in my own riding, and the

kind of breaks they've had because this government, through

that Minister, has taken pride in the north and been concerned

with the north.

Masset is the only municipality that is incorporated on the

Queen Charlotte Islands. Over and above the $34 per capita

grant, because this government is here, they are receiving a

per capita amount of money of $80.70. That's over and above the

$34 per capita grant. You can't sneeze at that, can you, Mr.

Member for Cariboo (Mr. Fraser)?

MR. FRASER: Yes, but how many figures did you use twice?

HON. MR. LEA: No figures used twice. I'll send it over.

MR. FRASER: I'd like to see it.

HON. MR. LEA: I'll give it to you.

Now Port Edwards, another municipality that's incorporated,

with a population of 1,000, is receiving over and above the per

capita grant of $34 another per capita amount of $67.50. You'll

notice that as the communities get larger, the amount of aid

goes down. That's probably only just, because those other

smaller communities have to catch up.

Prince Rupert, with a population of 17,500, over and above

the per capita grant of $34 now receive a per capita amount of

$24.16.

Now if you'd like to add on the amounts of $34 to each one

of these amounts, in the case of Masset you get $114.70 per

capita going to that community; to Port Edward, $101.50; and to

Prince Rupert, $58.16.

Now is that the kind of aid you people want to stop to the small communities

in the north? Are those the kind of programmes that your government, when you

were government, brought in? They certainly aren't. If you believe that you

can go through the north in your southern way — and I'm not talking about the

northern Members but the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bennett) — and talk that

kind of hooey to those down-to-earth kind of people and have them believe it,

well then, you've got another think coming.

The people in the north know where it's at. When they start

looking at the kind of benefits they're getting by having that

Minister and by having this government, your 20 years of

neglect look pretty glaring in the eyes of those people in the

north.

You can use all the rhetoric you want, when they go down to

a style of living which is a lot better than was provided by

you people, they're going to remember who did it for them and

they're going to remember who didn't do it for them.

You know those "seven safe seats," as you used to

call them? That's what the former Premier used to say: "The

seven safe seats in the north." Well, in 1972 he lost the lot

of them. Do you think those people are going to go back to the

Social Credit government, Mr. Chairman? Well, let's look at all

those new faces that are creeping up in the Social Credit

Party: Grace McCarthy, Robert Bonner — a long list of new

faces.

Those people in the north know very well that there's a

brand new policy in the Social Credit government. All of a

sudden they're progressive; all of a sudden they're concerned

about people; all of a sudden they're concerned about

municipalities; all of a sudden they're concerned about the

north. But the big shadow from Kelowna still floats over that

party, and you're not going to live that down because, in fact,

you haven't changed. Look at you. You haven't changed and the

people in the north know it.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): Speaking of shadows

floating over the province, I think we've just seen the biggest

and windiest shadow. It talks about the voice from the south. I

think he said: "The voice from the south speaking in the

north." I would suggest that the Member for South Okanagan (Mr.

Bennett) is more in contact with the people of the north than

the Member who has just spoken, who tends to make his travel

through the north in helicopters rather than in a

people-oriented manner such as car or walking or even talking.

The people of the north know the cost of that helicopter and

they know that this Minister has become infatuated with the

fattest government. He has put in the place of people and

concerns of people a strong tendency to enjoy the benefits of

his office and entertain this House with rhetoric rather than

with fact.

We just have to look at the administration of his portfolio

to see the potholes in this province, to see the neglect of the

highways in this province and to see that, in fact, the

highways in this province, which were once of the safest and

highest quality of any

[ Page 1824 ]

province of this type of difficult terrain and jurisdiction,

are now in a state of unsafe conditions. In fact, the truck

drivers of this province....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Will the Hon. Member talk about

the roads in the north, or at least talk about the north?

MRS. JORDAN: I find it amazing, Mr. Chairman, that this

Minister Without Portfolio, who is in charge of $402,657 for

the taxpayers of this province, has under these estimates made

one prepared statement and has made no other effort to make any

presentation to this House. He is so confident in his own

portfolio that he's had to have three Members of the government

speak for him.

I should correct myself; he hasn't got a portfolio. Of

course, this is one of the core problems of the debate:

$402,657 for a non-portfolio's inactivity.

Mr. Chairman, we heard from the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr.

Cocke) who gave a very flimsy defence of this Minister. He

tried to defend the Minister by attacking the former

administration. I have no intention of defending the former

administration, but I would suggest that those who stand up in

this House with a record of inactivity on their part must have

all the gall in the world to suggest that in 20 years nothing

was done in British Columbia. If it hadn't been for the

strength and the administration and the capabilities of the

former administration, these Members wouldn't even be sitting

in this House today because British Columbia wouldn't have

grown. As a large membership within that party are recent

immigrants to Canada and to British Columbia — and very

welcome, I might say, but certainly they came here within the

last 20 years — they wouldn't have been attracted to British

Columbia if it hadn't been a province of prosperity. If it

hadn't been a province of progress and if it hadn't been a

province oriented to people, they certainly couldn't afford

their fat salaries that they're getting today. This MLA, this

excessive MLA, wouldn't be able to receive his $45,000 a year

plus travelling expenses that he's getting.

The Minister of Health mentioned the three former Ministers

Without Portfolio. I'm glad he brought up the subject. Just for

the record, I'd like to read in what they cost the taxpayers of

British Columbia. In 1970-71 the total vote was $46,079; in

1971-72, $47,121; and in 1972-73, $61,790. I don't propose to

defend their contribution to British Columbia, but there are

many people in this province who will. There are many people in

services to people in this province who will stand up and

defend the actions of those former Ministers and their

efforts.

In 1973-74, under the NDP administration, the cost of Ministers Without Portfolio

— then only one — went to $118,672. Today we see a Minister Without Portfolio

doing nothing and saying nothing for $402,657. No wonder the Ministers in this

House have to get up and try and defend him.

Isn't it interesting that the confidence of this government

in this MLA was reflected only yesterday when there was an

emergency situation in the northern part of the province where

there's been a tidal wave or flood.

This government dispatched a Member of this House to observe

this emergency situation and to make recommendations to the

cabinet. Was it the Minister Without Portfolio from Fort

George, the man who is receiving this large sum of money we are

discussing now? No, indeed not. The government didn't have the

confidence they should have had in him. They sent the Member

for Skeena (Mr. Dent).

You can't suggest there was a matter of his possible

estimates coming on because everyone knows the

schedule of

estimates in this House at this time of selective closure.

Besides, this matter was attended to yesterday and the

government has 10 planes at its disposal, including three

jets.

I might suggest that if they had the confidence in him that

these Ministers of defence are trying to imply, it would have

been this person's responsibility to make that recommendation

to cabinet.

One wonders why, at this time when these estimates are

considered so important, the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr.

Stupich) is doing his income tax. Surely, if the government's

concern was as these speakers are trying to outline, then

indeed he would be more interested, and other Ministers would

be more interested.

With all due respect, this person is a nice person, but I

suggest that he has become the pretty boy of the NDP package

and that he is dressed in expensive frills of $400,000-odd, and

that this is a luxury the people of British Columbia cannot

afford. It is a luxury the people of the north cannot

afford.

They want action, not image. This is a Member with no

official title. This is a Member with no official capacity in

terms of what he is claiming on his letterhead and in his

presentation to people in this province. This is a Member who

is without the confidence of his colleagues, as witnessed by

their actions in relation to his responsibilities. He is a poor

excuse for the government's concerns for the north, a

non-Minister with a non-title and with no confidence.

As I mentioned, this is a party package, an expensive party

package of the NDP which the people of British Columbia cannot

afford and are concerned about. It is the people of the north

who are the most concerned and who say: "Don't give us

expensive image; don't give us expensive propaganda. Give us

interest, give us concern and give us action."

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): I agree that this is a somewhat

difficult vote to debate, because it is

[ Page

1825 ]

the Minister Without Portfolio. If we have to discuss

northern development, it seems to have such an overlap from the

responsibilities of many other Ministers. I presume we have a

fair amount of latitude, Mr. Chairman, to touch on a variety of

subjects.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Chair is simply ruling that

you must relate it in some way to his administrative

responsibilities within the cabinet. So use your judgment and

discretion in this matter.

MR. WALLACE: I always use my good judgment in this House,

Mr. Chairman. Everybody doesn't agree that it is good

judgment.

The Minister of Labour (Hon. Mr. King) is acting as the

cabinet support for the Minister Without Portfolio.

In thinking about northern development, I have to say that

whether the rules of the House are suitable for the debate or

not, inevitably it is a subject that involves everything from

roads to resources to housing to schools to health to human

resources. When we talk about northern development, the image

that is conjured up in the minds of most people is the opening

up of new areas and the development of new town sites and the

moving of substantial numbers of people into an area previously

at least underdeveloped, if not undeveloped. I feel, first of

all, that we should perhaps realize or ask the Minister to what

extent and within what time frame this kind of general, rather

simple picture of northern development I have tried to define

is going to come about.

I was very interested in a speech given last year in May by

one of the government's senior civil servants, Mr. Crerar, the

provincial director of the environment and land use

secretariat. He was addressing a meeting of the Association of

Professional Economists. I think it is interesting to put into

the record on this debate what this very highly skilled and

experienced adviser to this government said about northern

development. He said: "Let's look at its economic history" — talking about the northern part of the province — "which shows

that it has always been a marginal area at the best. It is on

the fringe of the market area, has a poor climate and has

always been classified as a high-cost area."

He told the meeting: "The area now has enough work for 4,500

people, mostly connected with the forest industry." He forecast

that during the next 20 years, there may be about 1,000 new job

opportunities.

That very mild and limited outline of the potential for development as Mr.

Crerar saw it is something which I think is very much at variance with the general

image which this government has promoted and, indeed, must be at variance with

the fact that the government has appointed a Minister Without Portfolio and

gone on to state that his specific area of particular concern should be northern

development. When one looks back to the moment when the Minister was appointed,

the report of that occasion makes it quite plain that the Minister himself was

not quite clear exactly what his responsibilities would be, although I think

he put one point clearly in context when he is quoted as saying that: "The northern

regions just haven't had a squeaky wheel in Victoria." That's a quote from the

Minister from The Vancouver Sun of that date.

What I would like to ask the Minister, first of all in

general terms, is whether the government does have some kind of

long-range, overall game plan, if that is not too loose a use

of the phrase "game plan." In other words, is there some

overall plan or is the government just deciding that there is

potential for northern development and that it will go ahead in

some kind of piecemeal fashion, a bit here and a bit there,

depending on how hard the residents scream and shout either for

or against government proposals? That would be my first

question.

My second question would be related to the fact that while

the Minister has held meetings in the north, and has listened,

my information from people in places like Terrace and Dawson

Creek is that they really are no further forward in knowing

what, if any, specific plans the government has up to this

point in time and the degree to which they are in a position to

modify or alter these plans. There is certainly a feeling that

any development that does take place should certainly take

recognition — and perhaps it has not been recognized in the

past — of the essential human factor and the fact that it isn't

just a question of a job or a new industry or a new mill

without all the attendant social and health and environmental

requirements to justify making such a new project in any one of

these areas.

The third question I would like to ask is the degree to

which there is some well-defined plan for transportation

programmes in the northern part of the province. We hear a

great deal about cooperation with the federal government in

the development of railways, and we hear about very large sums

of money being committed over the next five or 10 years

particularly designed to establish better transportation of

resources, particularly to Prince Rupert, which is destined to

become a larger port than at present. It seems to me, the few

years I've been in this House, we've heard that talk all the

time I've been here. It is always promises or grandiose

outlines of plans as to what is going to happen. But, as far as

I am aware, there has been no very fundamental improvement or

enhancement of railway transportation facilities.

To take another specific example, the people in Dawson

Creek, I gather, are not very much impressed

[ Page 1826 ]

by the suggestion that there is to be a lot of northern

development. It certainly does not seem to have involved them

in any great amount of discussion. When we talk about

transportation, the question is asked: what, if anything, is

this government doing in cooperation with the federal

government on paving the remainder of the Alaska Highway? With

all the exploratory developments going on for oil and natural

gas and minerals in the Yukon and North West Territories, I

understand there is a constant increase in the use of the

Alaska Highway. Certainly the feeling of many people in the

Dawson Creek area is that the government could enhance and

improve not only the highway, but also provide the kind of

stimulus to the economy that a greater use of the highway would

result in.

The whole question of secondary industry in the Dawson Creek

area is another subject about which I would like to ask the

Minister. This government at least did go ahead with the

alfalfa cubing plant which was turned down by the former

administration. So I give recognition to the cooperation of

people like the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich) and

others in developing that plant in Dawson Creek. But the

feeling of many people there is that that is just an example of

many other types of clean secondary industry that could be

developed.

My next question to the Minister would be: is his main

interest in northwest B.C. or does he have some real desire to

help the people in the northeastern part of the province? I can

tell you they feel that they are pretty well being neglected at

this present time.

The other general impression that I get from that area is

the overlooking of the tremendous tourist potential that there

is in the various parts of the province. As the Minister

mentioned earlier on this afternoon, when governments talk

about development, so many of the people in the area only think

in terms of industrial development, pollution, and undesirable

consequences. But on the other hand, many of these people in

the northern areas, as one of them said to me, if they want to

travel for recreation or even in the summertime, they have

considerable distances to travel.

Some areas, such as the Monkman area with its alpine areas,

have been looked upon by visitors from other countries, such as

Austria and Switzerland, as having just fantastic potential for

development. It has already been visited, I gather, by mountain

climbers of some world renown who claim that it has the kind of

attraction to them that is equal to almost any other part of

the world, both in terms of its interest as a climbing area and

its natural beauty.

What is being done in terms of development of our tourist

and recreational industry in these areas?

The main general complaint, of course, which we find when you travel in the

north country, almost unanimously, is that the people living in these areas

are sitting on valuable resources which are cut or mined or

shipped from their area. They have the distinct impression that

they never get back, in terms of government-funded services,

the kind of value which was taken out of their area in the

first place.

They feel that some of the difficulties of northern living

are certainly not recognized by we southerners, that the whole

problem of cost of transportation, for example, to get to a

metropolitan centre or to get to some of the areas of culture

and recreation and entertainment, are not appreciated, and that

there has to be some greater effort by government in the

northern areas to recycle some of that very substantial revenue

that comes from resources in the north country.

I think, Mr. Chairman, that the last question I would ask is

on the whole transportation problem involving development in

northern B.C., and the degree to which this government is

presently in communication or in discussion with the federal

government and the American government regarding the Alaska

Highway. What was the latest discussion on that subject, and

where is it at the present time? Or is it, in fact, a dead

issue — that there is no plan whatever to tackle the road part

of the transportation problem? I had asked about the railways,

for which we have had numerous announcements, off and on, and I

am still unable to see any tangible evidence of what has always

been promised. What is the position with the Alaska

Highway?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: I would like to make one or two comments

here with respect to some of the questions that were raised. I

might mention that the area itself, as I had mentioned

initially, covers northern British Columbia as a whole, and not

just one particular sector of it, like the Member had wondered

about.

In Dawson Creek...we are going to be in the Peace River

sometime in the near future and will be determining some of the

local concerns on these subjects that you have been raising.

There is some potential with respect to Sukunka coal, which we

are going to take a look at, and there is not anything specific

I can mention at this time. That will be of interest to the

Peace River region, particularly, I suspect, Chetwynd and

Dawson Creek.

I might mention, on your questions on transportation itself,

that the very nature of that region is primarily to a large

degree a resource- and transportation-oriented region

throughout the entire north. Natural resources, particularly

timber that is, are the lifeblood of the economy throughout,

pretty well. In order to be able to get the value out of that

resource and to have the industrial activity economic, it

requires transportation corridors to be able to achieve that.

That requires roads and railways, of course.

[ Page 1827 ]

We have got a main railway, We've got a potential for a

major port in Prince Rupert, which is also part of the

transportation system. But without going into the detail, let's

start out with the general picture on transportation.

We have got a railway going from eastern Canada right

through to the west coast. It's got a junction at Jasper.

Jasper to Vancouver is the south line and that is the one that

has very intensive traffic flows at this time, almost operating

to capacity. The projection down that route is approximately 10

per cent increase per year. With that railway operating at

capacity, it would be necessary to double that track. When we

think in terms of 10 per cent a year, that's 100 per cent in 10

years. That volume would require double-tracking to be able to

handle future potential traffic volume. It's almost impossible,

economically and otherwise, to double-track the Fraser

Canyon.

At the same time, we have found that there are bottlenecks

in Vancouver harbour — Vancouver terminals. We have been

advised from time to time that it takes, for example, up to two

weeks to load one ship in Vancouver harbour compared to two

days in Seattle. So there are major problems in that respect on

occasion.

The only real conclusion we can come to is that there is

going to be a major spillover of tonnage from eastern Canada

through to the Prince Rupert-Kitimat area because of that

situation. Knowing that this is going to occur on a more

increasing basis as we go along over the forthcoming years, we

need to get prepared and adapt facilities to be able to handle

that.

With that being the national picture — that is, a national

consideration — this then will require further opportunities in

the communities along the way from Jasper through to Prince

Rupert for the local communities to be able to take advantage

of a potential major port to channel the resource products into

that port rather than having them carted the long route through

to the Vancouver terminals. This is going to create some major

opportunities for the communities along the way that are

depending upon a livelihood from natural resources, primarily

the timber and pulp.

In order to be able, in addition to that, to tie onto that

main trunk railway, we've got to put in place traffic corridors

into the resource areas which are predominant throughout the

north. This requires railway planning, so we do have the

British Columbia Railway in the area. The Canadian National

Railway is also planning a railway into that area to be able to

fit in with this whole general concept of transportation.

The government responsibility, of course, is resource planning, resource allocation

and to help get the transportation corridors into place — to get the wood flow

into the respective communities — the industries that are going to need it.

It requires a great deal of work and a great deal of co-ordination not only

on a local government level, but also with the provincial government, with the

federal government and the various departments that need to work in unison to

try and work together and achieve this. So we've got to improve our relationships

within departments and within the government so we can serve the public interests

in the best possible way.

We do have the Environment and Land Use Committee — the

secretariat staff — which has been doing an excellent job to

try and examine these situations and put proposals together in

order to lay the groundwork for the future of the region and of

the respective communities. This requires roads and

railways.

The impact on the communities: the Member had indicated that

there was an anticipation of 1,000 jobs per year over the next

20 years, which is approximately, I figure, about 21,000 jobs,

which is considered to be the natural increase of people, based

on children leaving school every year to get into the labour

market. This is what the projection is at this time.

These communities, along with the industrial planning, the

resource planning, the transportation planning communities that

do have an economic disparity want to have an additional

economic development, Also there are communities that have to

have more housing, more educational facilities, health care and

so on. This question of northern development ties in with the

general skeleton — the transportation corridors, the

tributaries that will fit into it, the wood flows, the resource

flows that will be planned for the communities to take

advantage of to improve their facilities and get more wealth

out of the natural resources of our northern part of the

province, not only for people outside of the north but also for

the people of the north to get a larger share of the wealth of

this great province that we have here.

My involvement, of course, is within this framework, and I

am involved with the Environment and Land Use Committee to do

this planning and this programming. It will take some qualified

staff to be able to help co-ordinate this and try and lay the

groundwork for so many of the things that the community

needs.

I might mention, getting away from that for a moment, that I have been hearing

comments about the Minister Without Portfolio. I'm really not concerned with

what you call me. I note the former administration had three Ministers Without

Portfolio, and I've been trying to find out what their responsibilities were

and nobody can, to this day, tell me what they were. They've been telling me

that it was nothing. Well, I don't care what you call me but I'm interested

in the job that I'm required to do. The

[ Page

1828 ]

Premier, when he appointed me and approached me on this — and I was very happy

to accept the challenge — made it clear at the time there was a job to be done

out in northern British Columbia for the people up there. Under no circumstances

am I going to accept a job that would do nothing. We've got a great job to do

for the people of the north and that's what I'm out here to do.

MR. G.F. GIBSON (North Vancouver-Capilano): Mr. Chairman,

whatever this Minister's called, I gather he has some

responsibility for the British Columbia Railway as a director;

and he was using a lot of the good phrases in his remarks just

concluded.

He was talking about "traffic corridors into resource areas," "railway planning," "getting people into the

labour market." I just want to ask this Minister a little bit

about his thoughts on the B.C. Rail extension up to Dease Lake

which is now going on. I want to ask him about the traffic

that's going to be going on that line. I want to ask him about

the policies of his government that has ended for the

foreseeable future any hope of the most significant traffic on

that line.

I want to ask the Minister if he's aware of the Stikine

copper deposit and the Liard Copper Mines Ltd., both in that

area? One a projected 30,000-ton-per-day mill; another one a

projected 50,000-ton-per-day mill; $450 million capital

investment. A couple of thousand jobs in the construction

process. Over 1,000 jobs in the operating process. Not

unimportant to the northern part of our province.

AN HON. MEMBER: What does he think of Bill 31?

MR. GIBSON: That's just what I'm going to ask him, Mr.

Member. What has been the impact of the outrageous Bill 31 on

the development of these mines, and on the traffic that would

justify the extension of that railroad?

AN HON. MEMBER: Have you joined the Liberals, Alex?

MR. GIBSON: Does the Minister have any idea, Mr. Chairman,

how much a ton-mile of copper concentrate generates? And just

how many tons per year of copper concentrate are being foregone

by that railway extension because of Bill 3 I ?

MR. FRASER: Did he vote for Bill 31?

MR. GIBSON: "Did he vote for Bill 31?" says the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

That's a good question. I'd like the Minister to stand up and advise this House.

We could look back in the Journals , but he could save us looking that up and

it would certainly help his constituents judge his performance a lot if they

knew how he voted for Bill 31. But they know how the government voted on Bill

31, so that's really immaterial.

The question is: does the Minister appreciate that that

legislation has cancelled the possibility of 900,000 tons per

year of copper concentrate coming down that line? And does he

appreciate that the published BCR tariffs for moving copper

concentrate down from Gibraltar, which is 345 miles, is around

$ 5.10 a ton, which works out at about 1.5 cents per ton

mile? This means that because of the direct actions of the

government in the mineral resource policy in this province that

rail line, costing the taxpayers of this province millions of

dollars, will be foregoing revenue of something in excess of $6

million per year because those mines won't be operating.

Would the Minister kindly tell us? They won't be operating,

Mr. Minister of Mines, and you should know that just better

than anyone else in this province. They won't be operating

because of your legislation. You can see the evidence all over

this province right now.

Interjections

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. GIBSON: I would have thought that you would surely

understand.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I would ask the Hon. Member for

North Vancouver-Capilano if he is offering arguments in support

of this bill — number 49 on the order paper?

MR. GIBSON: Goodness gracious no, Mr. Chairman! No, indeed.

No, indeed. I'm asking this Minister of northern affairs where

he is going to get the revenue. And there's the president of

the railroad; maybe he knows where they're going to get the

revenue.

MR. FRASER: He doesn't even know where the railroad

runs.

MR. GIBSON: Where are they going to get the revenue to

replace this over $6 million per year which has been put right

down the drain by the mineral policies of this government? And

over 1,000 jobs a year for northern British Columbia at a time

when this province has over 100,000 people unemployed; how is

he going to replace that?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: Mr. Chairman...

[ Page 1829 ]

AN HON. MEMBER: There's no Minister of Northern Affairs.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: ...with respect to the British Columbia

Railway question that the Member had raised: there is a bill on

the order paper and I c would expect that there will be a

report filed in this House before the end of the session to

answer a lot of the questions that the Member has raised with

respect to the British Columbia Railway — the situation, the

traffic projection, the economics and some of the other

background.

With respect to copper, I would like to mention that it

has not been very long ago that there was a statement made by a

major mining company and other sources that I've read. It

explained that the price on the international copper market is

down and the stockpile is up. It makes it difficult to sell

copper if there's already too much in the world stockpile at

this time. If there are 400,000 tons of copper on the

international stockpile, the price generally maintains a

natural, economic, fairly stable level. If it drops down to

about 200,000 ions, then the price escalates very rapidly and

skyrockets. But the international stockpile of copper today is

approximately 850,000 tons. As it has been explained, that is

the reason why the price has dropped to the degree that it

has.

In the future we're going to find the turnaround: the

stockpile will be eroded to a normal level and the demand is

going to increase. That copper sitting in the ground will serve

at least as one future copper source in this province. So that

is the picture behind the copper. The potential is there, and

when the market requires it it will fall into place.

Certainly, the railway is in the area. I might point out

that it's really not on the railway; it's quite a ways off. If

you're acquainted with the geography there, there's some tough

terrain to be able to get into that area. Nevertheless, that's

a problem that needs to be overcome in due course.

The matter with development generally. We take the position

of planning development in a gradual manner, not in a gigantic,

instant manner like some suggestions that have been made. This

has a lot better effect in the growth of community planning and

providing the social needs along with it, rather than dumping

an industrial complex in overnight and then hoping that the

social patterns will fall into place. You just can't build an

industry and plunk a beer parlour down on the corner and think

all the social problems will be solved. Generally it is the

position to plan not only industrial development but also the

social and community development to be able to accommodate

that.

MR. GIBSON: I have just one brief question. I was delighted that the

Minister saw fit to give this House a lecture on the economics of copper supply

and demand and how the prices go up and down, depending on the size of the inventory.

I'd just ask him to buttress his position with one further figure, and I'll

give him a gold star if he gets within 10 per cent of it: what's the annual

world consumption of copper?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: Well, it's on record; I'm sure it is,

Mr. Member. If you're a walking encyclopedia, I congratulate

you for it. I didn't hear you say what it is.

I would point out another factor. We're talking about

serving the people of the north. I hear some people are opposed

to that; they're opposed to this government giving special

emphasis to the needs of northern British Columbia. We've heard

the Leader of he Opposition coming up north and lecturing the

people: on why it's such a terrible thing to do. But I can

honestly say that the people up north just do not agree with

him. They need a special emphasis to deal with the backlog of

needs that have built up over the years.

I would perhaps point out how far behind we are with other

provinces in dealing with northern affairs. We can take, for

example, the Province of Manitoba which has a department of

northern affairs. The percentage of the northern affairs budget

is 1.2 per cent of the provincial budget. Saskatchewan is the

same; the northern affairs budget is about 3.5 per cent of the

provincial budget. For the Minister Without Portfolio in

Alberta, last year the record shows that the percentage of the

budget was 0.11 per cent of the Alberta budget.

In British Columbia, do you know what percentage our budget

is?

MR. FRASER: Whatever it is, it's too much!

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: 0.0013.

Interjections.

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: I can understand, Mr. Chairman, why so

many people are opposed to a Minister Without Portfolio being

placed in a position to serve the special needs of the north.

It has been taken for granted for years that a Minister Without

Portfolio — in fact, they used to have three of them — should do

nothing. But we have changed things. For the first time we have

a Minister Without Portfolio who is committed to do some work

and to do a job out there. People have even gotten used to

thinking they should do nothing. When we think in terms of what

some of the comments are that have been made, they seem to

think that we, the people up north, should be a colony of the

south down here. People up

[ Page 1830 ]

north are tired of being a colony up there.

MR. FRASER: Rubbish!

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: These people here who oppose the special

interests of the north are going to have to think about this.

We are just tired of being a colony of the lower mainland.

Vancouver is in British Columbia, but many people seem to

think that British Columbia is in Vancouver. It is the other

way around, Mr. Chairman.

MR. FRASER: Are you against Vancouver?

HON. MR. NUNWEILER: We are no longer a colony of British

Columbia. We want to share a little more of the good things

that this province has with the people in our region.

MR. FRASER: I believe this Minister has answered one

question. I want him to answer the question that I asked

earlier: is he going to desist from signing his letters as the

"Minister for Northern Affairs"? I think the House is entitled

to that answer because he is not the Minister of Northern

Affairs, he is the Minister Without!

MR. D.T. KELLY: Just a few words from the Member for

Omineca.

MR. FRASER: Where is that petition?

MR. KELLY: I have been listening to the discussion this

afternoon. I didn't expect much different. As far as we've

heard so far, there hasn't really been any real c