Manitoba Hansard — 7 September 1988 (Sitting 31, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOl. XXXVII No. 31 - 1: 30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCOCK,Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Sieve BURRELL, Parker CARR,Jamea CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN,Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER,Gary DOWNEY, Jamea Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clay ton, Hon. McCRAE, Jamea Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITU ENCY Os borne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin -Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Vir den St.

Boniface Minn edosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnkster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATT ERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denia, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gillea Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WAS YLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, September 7, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAY ERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES Mr. Ed Helwer (Gimli): I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Privileges and Elections. Mr.

Cl erk, William Remnant: Your Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections presents the following as their First Report: Your Committee met on Tuesday, September 6, 1988, in Committee Room 255 of the Legisla tive Building, a portion of which was held in camera, to consider persons suitable to be appointed as Ombuds man for the Province of Manitoba, as referred to in subsections 2( 1) and 4(1) of The Ombuds man's Act. Your Committee has agreed to make its report to the Lieutenant Govern or-i n-Council with the unanimo us recommendation that Mr.

Gordon Earle be re-appointed for a second term as Ombudsman for the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr . Roch), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Pursuant to The Regulations Act, I am tabling a copy of each regulation filed with the Registrar of Regulations since the Regulations were last tabled in March. They are containe d in the two la rge bi nder s which, by arrangement with the Clerk, are already on the Table.

Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Spea ker, I would like to table the Suppleme ntary Estimates for the Department of Agricultur e for 1988- 89. • (13 35) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Day Care Subsidy Grants Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Minis ter of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson). Yesterday in this House the Community Services Mini ster announced the creation of 800 new child care spaces. However, there are serious questions as to whether, indeed, a single new physical space will be provided in this fiscal year.

We, on this side of the House, support the concept of a subsidy going with the child, but only in circumstances where public space is not available. The Min ister's announcement goes much further than that and may well create a situation in which public spaces lie vacant while private spaces are filled. Will the Mi nister tell the House whether private day care will receive the subsidy grant of $1 3.20 a day, or whether it is intended that additional monies will be given to them above and beyond the subsidy grant? Hon.

Ch arloUe Oleson (Mi nister of Commu nity Services): The children attending private day cares will be subsidized the same as children going to the public day care centres. Private Subsidies Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I am sure the Min ister is aware that in addition to this subsidy is it this Government's intention to provide maintenance grants and salary enhancement grants to private day centres? Hon. Ch arlo tte Oleson (Min ister of Communi ty Services): The payment of subsidies will be the only payment into private.

The maintenance grants, by legislation, are not allowed to go to private centres. The enhancement grants will not at this time go to private child care centres, but that subject will be taken up by the task force. Salary Enhancement Grants Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Will the Mi ni ster tell the Hous e toda y why this Government has decided not to provide any increase in maintenance or salary en hancement grants to public day cares in this fiscal year? Hon.

Char lotte Oleson {Min ister of Communit y Services): The enhancement grants will be flowing to the public centres at the rate of $2,800 per qualified emplo yee, as before. Mrs. Carstairs: But surely the Minister of Community Services is aware that the salary enhancement grants have been given in order to ensure decent salaries for those working in day care. Un less those grants are increased at least to the rate of inflation, it will mean the actual salaries of employees will decrease. Is this Government policy that day care workers should be paid less than they were paid last year in real dollars? Mrs.

Oleson: These are enha ncement grants which are given. The centre itself pays salaries as well. This whole matter, I know, is thorn y. lt is a problem, the 1059

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 salaries of child care workers. That is something which the task force will review as well. Allocation Priorities Mrs. Sharo:m Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Will the Mini ster of Community Services tell the House whether the workplace centres forecast by the Mini ster will be public or private? Will public funds, for example, tax dollars, be used to build private work place spaces? Hon. Cha rlotte Ole son (M inister of Co mmu nity Services): That whole issue and the funds allocated for it will be dealt with at a later time. We will look at proposals by centres.

Hopeful ly, the pr ivate compani es would build the spaces and make them available to their staff. Mrs. Carstairs: Finally, the Mini ster has established two advisory boards. She is not willing to listen to their reports but she has created them: one of day care providers and one of parents. Can the Mi nister explain to the House why she has not allowed these two groups to discuss their problems together , or is this just one other example of the divide and conquer mentality of this Government? * (1 340) Mrs. Oleson: I will igno re the last part of that statement. The advisory groups are to advise the task force.

They are part of the task force process. They will advise and monitor the task force to be sure that there is input from parents and from people in the child care field. This is a short-term endeavour, the same as the task force. lt is not an advisory committee ad infinitum to advise the Minis ter, they advise the task force on their feelings toward day care. Wife Abuse Program Funding Reductions Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Indeed, we are celebrating the private child care centres with some of the celebrations yesterday in Alabama with some of the companies that own pr ivate child care centres in Manitoba. lt is a very serious issue, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mini ster of Community Services and Corrections (Mr s. Oleson). The Mi nister of Finance (Mr.

Manne ss) in this House, during Estimates of Interim Suppl y, stated, "There is a commitment that none of the reductions will be made other than those that were announced last week by the Mi nister in charge of Community Services dealing with the Committee on Wife Abuse." Is the decision to reduce by $1 57,000 the amount of money the Child and Family Services agencies receive, is tha t in contradiction to the commitment made by the Mini ster of Finance in this Ho use during the In terim Suppl y and Spend ing Estimates that we were dealing with? Hon.

Charlotte Ole son {Minis ter of Community Services): No, it is not a contrad iction. The Community Outreach grants which the agencies had received only went to six Winnipeg agencies, so it was an inequitable system. lt did not go to everyone in the province equally. We felt that we would like to change the focus of those grants so that they could be focused on specific programs. The money will still be available. The agencies will apply with specific programs so we know exactly where the money will be going. Child and family Services Centralization Effects Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Again, we were told by the First Mini ster two weeks ago that there would not be centralization of the Child and Family Services. Here we see the slippery slope of centralization under this leadersh ip of this Min ister. Does this move not take away from the creativity and the community-based activity that has been going on with the Child and Family Services Divisions working with their communities-communiti es, I should say to the Min ister, which are as large as any community in all of the child welfare services outside of the City of Winnipeg?

Indeed, some of those community-based groups are serving populations of over 100,000 people with the six Child and Family Services. Does the Mini ster not feel that this will take away from the Child and Family Services' abil ity to work with communities and families for the betterment of all of our children under the leadership of the Child and Family Services division? Hon. Ch arlotte Ole son (Mi nister of Comm unity Services): No, it will not take away creativity. lt will not take away the funding of the special project.

The people in the agencies could still be just as creative, only now they will have to apply to the department to have their projects approved. I must tell the Honourable Member that over the years there has been an accumulation of funds tucked away in bank accounts. They were not all used. Now, we want to know that the money we are going to put in focus on the prevention of taking children into care, we want to know that money is used and used to good advantage. * (13 45) Staff Reductions Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Spe aker, when you take the money and put it back with the cent ral bur eaucrac y, the hundr eds of volunteers, the community workers that have been established working in the community will not have the creativity, they will not have the resources available to help children. My question to the Mi nister is will there be any directions in Government measures that she will initiate, as Mini ster of this department, that will reduce the number of staff working with children under the Child and Family Services six agencies in the City of Winnipeg? 10 60

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 Hon. Ch arlotte Oleson (Minister of Commu nity Services): No, there have been no reductions in staff. In fact, there have been increases. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, my question is a very serious one to the Min ister. Are there any measures that the Government is taking with the Child and Family Services six agencies that will result in a reduction in the number of Child and Family Services staff working with children? Mrs. Oleson: In fact, just yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I informed one of the agencies they would be getting three extra staff. Day Care Task Force Representation Ms.

Avis Gray (EIIice): Mr. Speaker , this Go vernment has attempted to lead the people of Manitoba into believing that they are an open Government and that open ness and consultation is the order of the day. � Well, Mr. Spe aker, actions speak louder than words. , Yesterday the Mini ster of Community Services made an announcement on the department's day care thrust. The Manitoba Child Care Association have always been consulted in major issues dealing with funding and they were not consulted in this case.

In fact, private day care operators were aware of the annou ncement of this department before they actually occurred. We, on this side of the House, are very, very concerned that the Mi ni ster of Communi ty Services and her Go vernment are anti public day care. Could the Mini ster of Community Services confirm for this House that the Manitoba Child Care Association will be represented on the seven-member child care task force? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Commu nity Services): Yes, that organization will be represented. Ms.

Gray: We are pleased to hear that, and we hope that the Ma ni toba Child Care Association will be notified; they have not been to this point. � A supplem entar y ques tion, Nobody . , Mr . Speaker. Regular meetings, monthly meetings and quarterly meetings were always held with the Manitoba Child Care Association and the day care office. Could the Minis ter tell this House why these meetings have been suspended? Mrs. Oleson: I have met with the Manitoba Association of Child Care in my office not too long ago. Advisory Groups Privileges Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): A supplementary to the Mi nister of Community Services.

She has indicated that she had met with people in her office; I would hope that they were more productive meetings than we have had in the past with other associations, such as the foster parents. Would the Minister tell this House-she has indicated that the advisory boards will advise and monitor the 1061 main task force. Will these advisory groups that have been established, or that will be established, have the authority to ma ke change s on any of the recommendations of the main task force? Hon. Charlott e Oleson (M inister of Commu nity Services): Mr. Spea ker, they will be in an advisory capaci ty.

Subsidy Shortfall * (13 50) Ms. Judy Wasylycia-leis (St. Johns): Mr. Spea ker, yesterday in both the House and in Estimates, the Mini ster in response to questions put to her about evidence that this new concept of the subsidy going with the child or the parent would result in new spaces or improved quality in our child care system could point to absolutely no studies and no examples of how it would actually work. There are many concerns with the proposal announc ed by the Mini ster yesterday.

Although the Mini ster could prove and demonstrate that there were no additional spaces to be gained by going this route, I would like to ask the Mini ster of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) if in fact it was possi ble for new spaces to be created by this subsidy, travelling with the child or the parent, given the fact that the average rate, the average fee charged in a profit private day care centre, is in the neighbo urhood of $17 to $20 per child; and given the fact that her subsidy, going with the child or the parent, amounts to $12 , and I believe she said, 80 cents.

Could the Mini ster explain to this House who would make up the difference between the average of $12 going with the parent and the average of $17 to $20 being paid by a parent in a child care centre? Could she please explain to the House that situation? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (Minister of Commun ity Services): Mr. Speaker, the Member's question points to one thing. The parents will have a choice. If they wish to go to a private day care centre and pay extra, that is their choice. If the day care centre wishes to forego that extra, that would be their choice. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Mr.

Spe aker, I am afraid the Min ister has not answered the question. She has given us some very loose answers to questions around this very serious matter. Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please; order, please. Would the Hono urable Me mber for St. Johns kindly put her question. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: 1t is a fact, Mr. Speaker , that this proposal is supposed to create flexibility. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Would the Honourable Mem ber kindly put her question? Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Could the Mini ster explain to this House whether the difference between the $12 and the $17 to $20 will come from the parent who cannot afford

Wednesday, September 1, 1988 it to begin with, will come from the salaries of day care workers that are much below the average of day care workers in the public sector, or will come from the parents who are paying the full rates? Could the Minister explain where the money will be coming from? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I believe I an swered that question for the Mem ber. The subsidy goes with the child to the centre. The parent will make the choice. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Mr.

Speak er, given the fact that we still have not received an an swer to that question, could the Minister explain to this House and give some information to this House- Mr. Speaker, it is very hard to ask a question in this House when Mem bers of the Cons ervative Government are so defensive about this policy and obviously revealin g- Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Member kindly place her question? Ms.

Wasylycia-leis: Given the fact that the Mi nister has explained that she is very concerned about care for children and about accessibility for parents, could the Mini ster explain if there is absolutely no increase in maintenance grants going to non-profit public centres and no increase in salary en hancement grants going to non-p rofit public centres, who will pay? Will the parents pay for the increase in cost of living, the increase in maintenance cost, the demands placed on any system in our non-profit public sector?

Who will bear the burden and why cannot one penny of the $7 million in this Budget go toward current centres, enha ncement of our centres, enhancement of the qual ity of our centres? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, the salary enhancement grants are still going to the centres. As I said before, when I answered the question before, it will be the parents' choice what day care centre they take their child to. They may pay the extra to have it in that centre. The centre may forego it. * (1 355) Road Impr ovements Capital Projects Mr.

Harry Enns (lakeside): I direct a question to the Mini ster responsible for Urban Affairs (Mr . Ducharme). I kn ow th at from the hig hways pr oject that was annou nced earlier and from discussions with the Mini ster of Hig hways, that the province is undertaking a multi-million dollar improvement at the interchange of the No. 6 or No. 7 Highway and the North Perimeter Highw ay.

My concern is and that of thousands of motorists who travel that area from the constituency of Gimli and my own Stonewall, Teulon every morning and evening to and from work funnel on to that one narrow stretch of seven or eight miles of city streets known as Brookside Boulevard.

I am asking has the Mini ster of Urban Affairs, in his capacity in de aling with ur ban matters, had any discussions with the city in the hopes that they could coordinate the construction programs of both the province and the city and alleviate this really very serious bottleneck that develops every morning and every evening in the northern extremity of the city? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): I have met with the Chairman of Works and Ops just last Friday, to discuss many of our highway projects, and we are looking at all those.

As you probably appreciate, their capital projects on review will be coming forward. They will start to approach us in December and January. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lakeside, with a supplementary question. Mr. Enns: Mr. Spe aker, always wishing to follow the admonitions of the Spea ker, I will ask a simple direct question to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Has he been able to determine whether or not the city will undertake that particular stretch of road improvement in the coming capital construction year? Mr.

Ducharme: There is no commitment from the city at this time on either capital works in the new five as you probably app reciate, they have a five-year program and there is nothing right now. I can honestly say to the Member that we will be pushing forward for the satisfaction of all the people in that particular part of the area, as well as the other routes that will be taking place. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr . Enns), with a final supplementary question. Brookside Boulevard Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr.

Speak er, I urgently request the Mini ster of Urban Affairs to use his own immediate past experience on City Council, that of the Premier's past experience on City Council, that of the Mini ster of Tourism and Small Business Development on City Council, and the former Deputy Mayor of the City of Winnipeg, collectively use all that former of City of Winnipeg Council experience to bring about the improvement of the road now known as Brookside Boulevard. Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): I am happy to recognize the fact that our Member has recognized that there are a lot of attributes to this side of the House. We have experience in dealing with city matters. I can assure you that the councillors that I have spoken to in the last week alone-there were five committee members, and I can assure you, we have a good relationship. We will not probably demand that monies be put forward like they did on one particular project for the sake of $10 million by the previous Government. We will not make those kind of demands. lt will be a good relations hip.

I am sure the Member for Lakeside (Mr . Enns) will ap preciate and I am sure he will like the projects that we will be bringing forward. Mr. Speaker: You really know how to make my day. • (14 00) 1062

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 Day Care Training Facilities Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Cre ek): Manitoban s are confused, Mr. Speak er. My question is to the Mini ster of Education (Mr . Derkach). Yesterday the Mini ster of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson), in presenting her change of policy with regard to subsidies for private day care, was uncertain whether or not new spaces would be available for children. What is the Mini ster of Education implementing for new education seats in facilities that train child care workers? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): At the present time, the situation is such that we have a waiting list of about 190 students waiting to take child care training. We are going to be undertaking a task force review of day care in the training centres and the programs that are being offered at the present time. I had indicated to the Member before that there was some problem in having the universities recogn ize some of the programs tha t were being offered by the community colleges.

All of this will take a little bit of time to sort out and to implement a program which is going to be effective and is going to provide more trained child care workers in this province in the future. RRCC Program Availability Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): To the same Min ister, was there an increase in spaces at Red River Community College in the course that began yesterday, or were the numbers admitted left at 60 seats as in the past? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I am not quite certain as to the specific numbers, but I will take that question as notice and get back to the Member reg arding that information. Task Force Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): What is the Mini ster of Education planning immediately in light of the fact that there is a shortfall currently of 200 trained child care workers in the Province of Manitoba? Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I think I gave the answer to the Member in my first response to her question, in that we do have a task force on day care which is going to be undertaking a study, not only of day care but also of the training programs. I think it will be premature to embark on any kind of programs before that task force report is handed down to us as Government. Foster Care Telephone Survey Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Commu nity Services): I would like to add ress a question raised in this Ho use last week regarding foster parents. lt is my pleasure to table in the House today a letter from the Ma nitoba Foster Parents' Assoc iation, Inc. confirming their acceptance of the agreement reached on foster parent rates last week. The association has accepted a 12.4 percent increase rate in this fiscal year, as well as an additional three year plan to reach the level set by the agreement between the foster parents, the agencies and the department last year in that committee.

The agreement recogn izes the association as the official voice of Manitoba's foster parents, as well as addressing other issues of concern. Now that the agreement is confirmed, I would also like to table the questionnaire used in the survey conducted by Western Opinion Research, Inc. on behalf of the Government on Saturd ay, August 27, and as well the letter of agreement between Western Opinion Research and the Government of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the results speak for themselves. We have reached an agreem ent, a fair agreement, a res ponsi ble agr eement.

We have corrected an unfortunate record of neglect towards the foster parents of Manitoba and, most importantly, toward the foster children in their care. We have acted in a financially respo nsible manner. The Opposition may deba te the process, but Manitobans will judge us by our results. I am proud that we have reacted responsibly and I am pleased that we fulfilled our obligation to act in the best interests of the children of Manitoba and their foster parents. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker , I did say last week in this House that I would be first on my feet to congratulate the Mini ster when this agreement was finalized. I would like to ask in future though, if the Minister plans to make a ministerial statement, that we be given an opportunity and that take place outside the Question Period. I would also like to suggest that in future if they are going to negotiate with outside groups, and I would include the child care association in this, that they choose a different method than they have in the past. Community Progra ms Funding Cuts Mr.

Reg Alcock (Osborne): I do have a question for the Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Man ness). In light of his statements during Interim Supply that there would be no further cuts in Community Services, that they had all been annou nced to that point, how does he explain the $1 57,000 cut in the prevention grants and a further $15 3,000 cut in child maintenance to Winnipeg South and $1 45,000 cut overall in child maintenance? Hon. Clayton Manness (Mi nister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will allow the Minister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) to give the detailed response to it.

In the time of Interim Supp ly, my answer was very much directed towards specific outside agencies. lt was 1063

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 given in the terms by the leader of the third Party, deal ing specifically with the Main Street Project. Second ly, the other group was another specific outside group, and the general statement made was to specific groupings such as that. As far as agencies, I never ma de a claim specifical ly across the board of Community Services. Mr. Alcock: To the Mini ster of Finance, one more time before I go to the Mini ster of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson), I am afraid that his statements in the House differ with the record.

I would ask the Minister to explain why we now have cuts when he stated very clearly in this House that there would be no further cuts in child welfare funding, Community Services funding. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker , I indicated that most of the agencies were receiving a 3 percent increase, and that is the policy of the Government. I am led to bel ieve that is specifically what the Government has provided to all of the outside agencies, other than the ones that I have mentioned for two weeks, the announcement made by the Min ister of Community Services (Mr s. Oleson) dealing with a specific outside agen cy.

My other comments were dealing specifically with the question posed by the leader of the NDP (Mr . Doer) dealing with the Main Street project, and I cannot quite remember the other one. Child Welfare Agencies Staff Reductions Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker , the Mini ster of Finance (Mr . Mann ess) should speak to his colleague in Community Services because we are approa ching .5 million in cuts in that department, and some very important community programs are being destroyed as a result of the actions of this Government. However, I do have a question for the Mini ster of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson).

I was pleased to note her statement that there would be no staff red uctions in child welfare, and she announc ed the increase in three staff in the northwest Child and Family Services Agency. I trust, given her statement in this House, that means that there will not be three staff cut from central Manitoba. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Min ister of Commu nity Services): No, I am not aware of any staff cuts in central Manitoba. Port of Churchill Shipping Season Mr. Jay Cowan {Churchill): My que stion is to the Minister of Hig hways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger). Mr.

Speaker , I have been contacted within the last day or so by a number of constituents from Churchill where there are very strong rumours that a ship has been scheduled for commencement of the shipping season out of Churchill in early Octo ber. Given the serious social problems that have resulted from the ongoing uncertainty as to whether or not there would be a shipping season in Churchill this year, would the Minister of Hig hways and Transportation provide to the House any information that he has with respect to this long awaited start of the shipping season at the Port of Churchill this year. Hon.

Albert Driedger (M inister of Highways and Transportation): First of all, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the all-Party committee that has been meeting on a regular basis with the various components that are involved in trying to get grain moving through the Port of Churchill. I think the committee has met with all the players in the game. We met on 4hree different occa sions, I believe, with the chairman of the Wheat Board and we have lobbied extensively.

Unfortuna tely, I cannot make a definitive statement as to the fact that grain will be moving through the Port of Churchill, but I am very hopeful that there probably will be some kind of indication being given in the next couple of days. * (1 41 0) Safe Passage Guarantees Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): My supplementary to the Mini ster then involves the lateness of the season if it were to start in early October and then announcements were to be made in the next couple of days.

Given the desire on the part of all Members of this House to turn this crisis into an opportuni ty, I would ask the Mini ster if he is prepared to both formally and forcibly call upon the federal Government to put into position in the Hudson Bay ice breakers that will gu arantee safe passage for grain ships so that the season this year, if it does start in early October , can be extended as long as is possible. Perhaps we can use this potential crisis as an opportunity to prove that the Port of Churchill does have a shipping season that can extend beyond mid-No vember. Hon.

Albert Driedger (M inister of Highways and Transportation): Last Friday, the committee met with various federal members including the federal Min ister of Health, the Honourable Jake Epp, the Honourable Charlie Mayer, and at that time the committee raised the concerns with our federal counterparts about the possibility of having icebreakers available, if a shipping season did develop and if it happened to be later on, to assure the safety of grain movement out of the Port of Churchill. So, Mr. Spea ker, the concern has been raised with them.

I will follow the advice or suggestion made and will try and confirm that with our federal counterparts to assure that, if we do have an announcement and the grain is going to start moving through the Port of Churchill, we can assure the safety of the ships taking it out. Mr. Cowan: In keeping with the desire in all persons to build upon any momentum that may be genera ted by a ship coming to Churchill in early Octo ber, I would hope that the Min ister would forcefully call upon the federal Government to formally indicate that they will have those icebreakers in place. 1064

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 The committee has met and , Mr. Speaker , as you are probably aware, tomorrow evening there will be a meeting of the all- Party delegation to lobby on behalf of Chur chill in thi s building, which will in clude representatives of organ izat ions from across this province and indeed other provinces. I would ask the Min ister of Hi g hways and Transportation (Mr .

Driedger) if he can indicate what federal officials will be available to meet with that committee tomorrow evening, so that the people of Man itoba who are represented through those different organizations can put forward very forcefully their concerns and their encou ragement to the federal Government to ensure that the icebreakers are in place, that the season does start in early Octob er at the very latest, and that it is extended for as long as possible. Mr.

Albert Driedger: I would like to confirm the fact there is a meeting that has been arranged for tomorrow night. � Inciden tally, it happens to be the 31s t ann iversary ' of my wife and myself and- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Business before pleasure, I will sacrifice that evening. As the chairman of that committee, I want to indicate that we have extended 28 invitations. All the federal Members for Manitob a have been invited to particip ate in that meeting, as well as various organizations.

I cannot give an indication how many will be attend ing, but I would hope that there is going to be good representat ion. Hop efully, at that time, we can maybe even make a definitive statement in terms of moving out grain through the Port of Churchill. Corre ction Facility Headingley Violence Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae).

Head ing ley Correctional In stitution has had some security problems over these last few months, and I am sorry to report to this House that it appears that there have been some serious administrative errors as well, at least one it appears.

Earlier this year, a guard at Headingley suffered a broken nose and a serious cut requiring 26 stitches at the hands of an inmate who was housed at that time in low security. 1t appears now that the assessment officer who assessed this in mate assessed him as extremely violent and reco mmended high security. lt appears, ther efore, that th ere was a very serious administrative error, resulting in this injury to this inmate (sic). My question to the Attorney-General is this: is he aware of this apparent error and , if so, what, if anything, has been done about it? Hon.

James McCrae (Attorney-General): As the Hono urab le Memb er will re cogn ize, correct iona l facilities do seem to lend thems elves to incidents from time to time. I can assure the Honou rable Member that I ge t occurrence reports every time th ere is an occurrence of any of the type of thin g th at the Hono urab le Mem ber is talk ing abou t. So if the Honou rable Member can give me the date of that occurrence, I will get back to him. Mr. Edwards: I will be happy to furnish that to the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae).

Further for him, a supplement ary question, the guard who was seriously injured in this case would certainly appreciate an investigation. If the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) has received the documents and the notice that he says he does, I am sure he is aware of this very serious incident at Heading ley. Will the Attorney -Gener al unde rtake to do an investigation and make an apology to the inmate and his family, if in fact -(Interjection)- the guard, if in fact ther e has been a serious admin istrative error at Headingley institution, and the assessment officer's report not followed? Mr. McCrae: As I say, Mr.

Sp eaker, I am given incident reports and there have been occasions where staff at Head ingle y ha ve res ponde d very well in de ed to incidents that have come along. I have made it my practice to try to be in touch with those staff to commend them or to congratula te them for the quick action and the presence of mind that they display in certain incidents. I would like to get together with the Hon ourable Member and we can discuss the details of this particular case. Victim Impact Report Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): A final supplementary, and if Mr.

Speaker will allow, slightly off the subject of the first two, the Victim Impact Statement Project stopped operating in October of '87, and an evaluation report apparently has been completed as at June of this year. My question to the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae) is this: has he studied this report and is he prepared to table it at this time, and what are his intentions with respect to the reinstatement of this very important and, I think, very successful project? Hon.

James McCrae (At torney-G eneral ): As a Government, the new Government of Man itoba is very pleased to be able to put forward and to express a commitm ent toward the pli ght tha t victi ms find themselves in and to assist victims. Indeed we have a Victims' Assistance Committee which is doing some very good work in funding various groups which are doing valuable work on behalf of victims. I will review the report. I have seen reports of the type the Honou rable Member is talking about, and I ha ve had discussions with my deputy and others in the department.

There have been concerns expressed by members of the judiciary, certainly one that I know of, and the issue is very much part of the considerations in my department. 1065

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 Day Care Remote Training facilities Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) has time for one final question . Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): My one care fully constructed question is to the Min ister of Education (Mr . Derkach).

Some week-and-a-half ago, I had the cha nce to meet with the Man itoba Child Car e Association who indicated their gra ve concern about the situation with respect to the trai ning of both directors and day care staff personnel, and indicated that there was a signi ficant shortfall in terms of the trained personnel available for our day cares.

Given that The Community Day Care Standards Act requires that there be a certain percentage of trained personnel and all directors be trained, I find it astounding that the Mi nister of Education has not, in consultation with his colleague, done any preparation for the training of these people. My question is to the Min ister of Education. He indicated that some 60 spaces may be available for students wishing to enter day care training in Winnipeg. Could the Mini ster indicate what is available to support the day care activities and the aspirations of day care workers in northern Manitoba, in rural Man itoba?

Could he indicate whether there in fact are any training places available in the North? Hon. leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): That is quite an interesting question because, after four months in Government, the Member who was formerly the Min ister of Education expects that we will have corrected all the mistakes and all the shortfalls that they had created while they were Government. That is not possible. I have to tell you that this Government is going to address that issue.

Because we took Government in May, at a time when it was impossible to change a lot of the programs that they had implemented, I have to say that the courses will continue as they had started. But there will be an add ress of that issue, and we will not do it in the way that former Government had done in neglecting their responsibility with regard to providing programs in northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. * (14 20) ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING Hon. James McCrae (Government House leader): Mr.

Speak er, would you be so kind as to call the Bills as listed on today's Order Paper , not including Bill No. 21. Mr. Speaker: Debate on second reading, Bill No. 4, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney General (Mr . McCrae), The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1988, Act;

Loi sur les Lois readoptees du Mani toba de 19 88, st anding in the na me of the Honourable Member for the lnterlake (Mr . Uruski). Mr. Bill Uruski (lnterlake): I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand for today and we will be ready to proceed with it the next time it is called. (Agreed) Mr. Speaker: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 5, The Statute Re-enactment Act, 19 88; Loi de 1988 sur la readoption de lois, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie). (Stand) BILL NO. 6-THE FIRES PREVENTION AMENDME NT ACT Mr.

Speaker: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Mini ster of the Environment (Mr . Cannery), Bill No. 6, The Fires Prevention Amendment Act; Loi modif iant la

Loi sur la prevention des in cendies, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton). The Honour able Mem ber for Thomp son has 22 minutes remaining. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thom pson): I welcome the opportunity to once again debate this Bill.

I know many Members of the House were in attendance when I first began my speech on this item of legislation and some of my comments will be summarizing some of the positions that I discussed at that time, so what I am talking about may be somewhat familiar to them; but I notice there are other Members who did not have the benefit of my particular comments when this Bill was being debated, or the comments of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie).

I think it is important that all Mem bers of the House do look at this Bill in terms of his promise and some of the comments and concerns that the New Democratic Party has about this particular item of legislation. When I spoke last time, Mr . Speaker , I said that this particular Bill would probably be categorized by some people as being a minor Bill. I have heard other terms used for Bills of this nature. "Ho usekeeping" is the one term that I have heard used. The Member for Elmwood (Mr . Malo way) has heard that term used as well.

The problem, though, I have found in the time I have been in the Legislature-nearly seven years now, I guess-is that sometimes the more simple Bills are the Bill s that can have the most un expected ramifications. If I have the time, I could run through a number of those that I remember that I was assured , as a Member of the Government caucus at the time, they were minor.

I can remember other Members of caucus being assured that those Bills were minor, and I can remember finding that after the Second Reading at committee that other Members of the Legislature or outside organizations identified some very serious problems with those Bills. That is why we do have the process that we do have in the parliamentary system of the three readings, and 1066

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 I believe probably the most important stage actually in Manitoba is at the committee stage. Fairly soon, following the deba te on this particular Bill, probably over the next couple of months, as we deal with this and other items, this Bill will be going to a committee. lt is at that particular stage that we do have to look very carefully at the ramifications of this particular item of legislation. This is exactly in the spirit that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) spoke when this matter was last before the House.

He pointed out that there may be unexpected compl ications in this particular Bill that the Minister responsible for the Bill, the Minister of Labour (Mr . Connery), did not realize could be the case. I am sure, when the Minister was given this possibility of bringing in this legislation by his department, that he probably asked a few questions and basically assumed that it was a minor item that was there for clarification of the existing Bill-and yes, it is.

But did he consider the comments made by the Member for Flin Flon-the possibility that at some time in the future the tuition and charges that are being talked about in this Bill could be applied not just to out-of-province participants at the fire training colleges that we have in Manitoba, but to Manitobans? Did the Minister consider that? Mr. Jim Maloway (Eimwood): Probably not. Mr. Ashton: The Member for Elmwood says, "Probably not." Whether he considered it or not, we are faced with a situation now that that could be the possibility in this particular Bill-the possible

interpretation of the amendment that is being proposed by Bill No. 6. Let us remember, Mr. Speak er, that we have many court cases involving Bills that have been passed by Legislatures in this country, by the House of Commons and, more importantly, by this particular Legislature. What have the judicial rulings been in regard to Bills that have been passed? The rulings, basically , have been clear. If you want something to occur as a result of a Bill, you have to state it specifically. lt is not sufficient to not mean any negative consequences, to mean other consequences.

The intent of the Bill is not something that is taken into acc ount. Judges will not look at the speech that the Minister who introd uced this Bill made when he brought in the Bill. Judges will not look at my comments or the comments of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie). They will look at what this Legislature passes through third reading, what is approved by the Lieutenant-Governor and what actually appears as statute law for the Province of Manitoba. That is why we have the process that we do. That is why the Member for Flin Flon has made some particular concerns aware to Members of this House.

Tha t is why, I think, when we get to com mittee, we are going to have to look at a subamendment, because this is actually a Bill that brings in an amendment to the Act, that will make sure that the people that the Member for Flin Flon is talking about are not charged tuitions.

He talked in his speech, for example, about the northern communities in our province and how, I am sure, that no one would intend that the people from northern communities attending the fire college in Thompson or in Winnipeg or in Brandon will be charged 1067 tuition fees to attend those particular courses, because let us not forget that the courses that are being offered are being offered as part of the educational component, the fire prevention component of this Act.

This Act empowers the department for which the Mini ster is responsible to do a number of things: to establish standards; it empowers ins pectors to check in terms of fire safety; to carry out inspections; but it also includes, as a major component, sections that deal with education both of firefighters and also of the general public of this province. That was a particular concern that the Member for Flin Flon add ressed; and that is that this may be intended to ensure that tuitions are charged to out-of province residents so that revenue can be put towards impro vements in fire safety here in Manitoba.

That is fair enough. If we can use revenue from out-of-province participants to provide more training for the kind of people that the Member for Flin Flon was talking about in northern com munities, in rural communi ties, in Winnipeg, I have no disagreement with that. But if we apply that here in Manitoba, that will be to the detriment of providing that training, because many communities cannot afford to provide the type of tuition that would be necessary to cover even a small percentage of the costs of fire prevention in this province. * (14 30) I am particularly concerned about the Northern Affairs communities.

These are communities that have very little, if any, tax base, and the Minister responsible for Northern Affairs (M r. Downey), I am sure, must be aware of their situation. I look forward to his support at committee stage for the type of amendment that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) has pointed to, because the intention is not to apply tuitions to Northern Affairs communities. As much as I sometimes question the intentions of the current Government, I am sure in this particular case there was no ulterior motive, no hidden agenda. I will give them that on this particular issue.

On some other iss·ues I might question their agenda, but on this issue I am sure that what has happened is that the Min ister has taken the word of his department, has not really asked the kind of questions that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) has asked in this Legislature and has brought forward a Bill that, while minor at first appearance, has ramifications that could be far more serious.

We will be talking to the Mi nister, we will be raising this issue at the committee stage, and we will also be talking about what I mentioned in my comments when I first started the speech last week, and that is the overall Fires Prevention Act itself. I mean, let us not forget that wha t we are dealing with here is an amend ment to an existing Act, a fairly comprehens ive Act that deals with fire prevention in Manitoba. In my speech last time I spoke, in the first part of my comments, I pointed to what I see as some of the needs in the area of fire prevention.

I mentioned some specific items, and then I encouraged Members of the Legislature at that particular time to go and talk to

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 their constituents about fire prevention, about whether they feel that their local municipality and the provincial Government and the federal Government, with their various confusing jurisdictions, whether they are doing the job, whether , because perhaps of conf used jurisdictions, we are finding a patchwork of standards in this province and other provinces, whereby some residents of some communitie s ha ve better fir e protection available to them, have better fire protection standards than in other areas of the province and other areas of the country.

I mentioned in my speech last time about how I attended, along with the then Mi nister responsible for this department, the late Mary Beth Dolin, the first meeting of the Min isters responsible for fire prevention in Canada, and how one of the concerns that came across from Cons ervative Mini sters-! do not believe there were any Liberal Mini sters at the time-but from the New Democratic Party Min isters and from the P.Q. at the time-1 guess they represented Quebec-a nd the Socreds in British Columbia, the concern was similar, regardle ss of political stripe, and the concern was the confused jurisdictions and the balk anized standards that we find existing in Canada.

I used one example to indicate my particular concern about that, and that is the appli cation of some of the newer technology that is available, and I hate to even call it technology , it was such a simple concept, such a simple mechanism that it really is not even a new technology . lt has been around for a number of years. What I said at the time was basically that it is important for all Members of the Legislature to addr ess these sorts of issues, and I am going to do it. In fact, in the remaining few minutes-Mr .

Speaker , I was wondering if you could indicate how many minutes I have left, so I do not neglect to mention any of my comments. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member will have 11 minutes remaining. Mr. Ashton: Eleven minutes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. What I suggested to Members at that particular time was the y look at what ha pp ens, because of the Byzantine regulations that we have and the different jurisdictions, in regard to one small item that could save, I believe, many lives in Manitoba, one small item, not a costly item, but that is the case of smoke detectors.

I think probably most Mem bers of the House have those smoke detectors in their homes at the present. I certainly do. lt is certainly something that more and more people are being required to do, actually, as part of their insurance requirement. Many older apartment blocks do not have those sorts of detectors, not only in the suites, but also in the apartments themselves. I have been concerned when I have looked at the situation that I have seen in my own constituency, where I have seen apartment fires that have taken place that I feel could have been prevented if smoke detectors had been in place.

Now I know what the objection would be. The objection would be that landlords would have 1068 to add these after the time of construction, there would be a cost element involved to that addition. I have heard the concern that there might be vandalism, that those smoke detectors might be removed, but my response to that is, yes, some of them would be vandalized, some of them would be removed. Yes, there would be a cost to the landlord, but what would the cost be in comparison to the benefit of preventing fires from killing people, from causing all sorts of property damage? What is the cost and what is the benefit?

To society, I would say that the cost is minor compa red to the benefit. But what takes place is, because of this concern that exists from landlords I know, they are just not in place in all the buildings. They are not required and they are not put in place. I have had people in my area, my constitue ncy, who have said that they would be willing to pay the extra amount to have those smoke detectors put in the apartments if it was only possible to do so.

I was talking to a constituent about a year-an d-a-half ago, was going through his apartment block, checking with people if they had concerns, and this is what he said. He said, I do not mind paying $1 or $5 or $10 for the smoke detectors, but I think that there should be a requirement that is in place to require the landlords to do it, and people like myself, we will pay that additional cost.

I mention this as an example, and it is an important one, but an example of the type of thing that I think exists in that we have a problem with the fire prevention system that we have in place, one that I think leads me to question whether we do not need a comp lete overh aul of the entire fir e pr evention system in Manitoba. That is why I am making those comments in addressing this speech.

We have a minor amendment that may have some unexpected complications in terms of the impact on fire prevention, the impact on the fire colleges in Manitoba, but perhaps instead of looking strictly at that sort of amendment, perhaps we should be looking at a complete review of The Fires Prevention Act. Let us go through it clause by clause. Let us look at what is in place now in terms of stan dards, in terms of enforcement of those standards.

Let us look at what is in place right now in terms of fire prevention and protection, both in terms of educating firefignters, providing support services to fire departments. Let us look at what is in place in terms of public education, in terms of preventing fires because certainly that is what it is all about. That is the name of this particular Act, fire prevention.

Let us look at the bottom line of trying to come up with a better system, one that does no t have respo nsi bil ity split across the various jurisdictions, as is the case at the present time, one that basically has a more codified approach to fire prevention, one that does not end up as you well know, Mr. Speaker, with the current situation being the case. I know many people who are confused as to where they should turn.

I have had people contact me and ask whether they should con tact the local fir e department, or the provincial fire commissioner's office in regard to matters related to fire safety. it is difficult to respond because there are overlapping jurisdictions, overlapping jurisdictions that are partly constitutionally

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 based, but also result from, I think, some confusion that exists because of this particular Act. So I am suggesting we look at that confusion , perhaps we can even redraft the entire Act , and I hope in fact the Minister has the opportunity to go through my comments and the comments of the many other people I know will be speaking on this issue, because I am sure the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), the Member for Rupert slan d (Mr. Harper) will be talking in terms of the northern situation. I know the Member for Logan (Ms.

Hemphill) will probably have comments in terms for the City of Winnipeg, and I think really if the Minister looks at this, this may be a golden opportunity . They may have brought in what he thinks is a minor Act ,

an Act that is not as minor as he thought initially, but now that he has opened the box on this , the Pandora's box of fire prevention , now that he was perhaps willing to listen to the concerns that were exp ressed and willing to look at the entire Act, perhaps this mistake on the part of the Minister will turn out to be an opportunity for all of us. , *

(1440) I look forward , as a Member of the Legislature, to listening to the comments from other Members on fire safety , fire protection ; listening to the comments for example of the Liberal critic in this particular area . I am afraid I am not sure exactly who the critic is, but I am sure - ok , the Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson) will be addressing those concerns , I guess in his role as the parallel critic in terms of labour and the Fire Commissioner 's office .

I hope the Minister in his closing comments-because let us not for get that the Minister may make comments to close debate on second reading when we do conclude debate on this Bill, probably over the next two , three or four months that we are here- I hope that when he does make-okay I am sorry, Mr.

Speaker , five or six months for the Members opposite-whenever we do reach the finalization of second reading on this particular Bill I would hope that the Minister would take the opportunity at that particular time to address not only the concerns myself and the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. / Storie) have spoken already, not only the concerns I know of the Membe r for Radisson (Mr. Patterson ) who I am sure will be speaking for his particular Party 's concerns , but the concerns of many other Members of the Legislature who I hope will be participating in this debate .

I know certainly our caucus will be quite active in talking on this and many other Bills because it is through this process of discussion and debate that we can achieve improvements to Acts such as this particular one, even if there has been an error on the part of the Minister . As I said , that error may become an opportunity . In closing , I would be very pleased to add some very brief remarks on a very important area . I would urge Members of the Legislature to look at this Bill , look at the comments of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) in terms of the specific problems this Bill might create .

I would urge Members of the Legislature to look at the Bill as a whole , the whole concept of fire prevention, and let us not see on this issue, which surely is the closest thing that we could ever get to a non-partisan issue. I mean what politics is there in fire prevention , in a partisan sense? Surely we can join together , put our 57 heads toget her and come up with an improved Bill , an improved system for fire prevent ion in the Provinc e of Manitoba. Let us use this opportunity now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker , I too would like to participate in the debate on this Bill and I do so recognizing that most rural municipalities in the province have a fire brigade of sorts made up of volunteer members throughout many of the small towns, villages and rural municipalities, and do have shared agreements between some of the villages and rural areas for the serv ices .

I also would like to address , as some of my colleagues have addressed, areas in the province which can be desc ribed as fledgling municipal areas and those are the Northern Affairs community committees where there are communities throughout this province who over the last, I would think , decade have just begun to exercise their desire s in providing local government for themselves and their people , but along with the res ponsibili ties of local government , the provision of services such as fire protection .

For example , in my own area the communities of Fisher Bay, Dallas , Red Rose, the Harwill community committee , the area dealing in the Gypsumville area of Peonan Point, Davis Point , all those areas are in fact newly-created municipal districts under The Northern Affairs Act , although their tax base, Mr. Speaker, is very marginal to say the least. They require the continued support of the people of this province to be able to have at least a segment or a portion, a small portion, of the services that many of us in rural and urban Manitoba enjoy and have enjoyed over the last 10 or 20 years .

I know, for example, in some of those communities that I have mentioned a number of years ago, the only type of fire protection that there was , was a hand pumper on a trailer . In fact , along with it there were some backpacks for fire protection. There is no way that a house fire could be even held or let alone put out with that kind of equipment. In fact , the moment that a trailer would be pulled out of the garage, you would drive down within a mile or two in 20-below weather, all the lines and the little pumping equipment that was there would be frozen solid.

I imagine there are stories as well in southern Manitoba that one could relate to where water pumps themselves on firetrucks have frozen before the fire engine has reached a rural fire or an alarm that was either a livestoc k facility or someone's residence . Mr. Speaker , the concern that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) raised on behalf of Members, I am sure even Members on the Government side , and I believe this, they may not have caught this what I would call a "nuance" in the legislation. It may have been an oversight on behalf of the department and the Minister .

That is the question of the tuition fees that can be 1069

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 prescribed. We do not argue at all of the rights and the need to charge fees for training that is provided for corporations and other agenc ies which want to train their employees.

However, it does not clearly indicate that fees for fledgling communities and many rural communities who are, in fact, facing declined revenues especially during this drought period, rural municpalities who wish to train their volunteers, would not have to, and we would not want to provide tuition to be paid or fees to be paid by the se commu nity-based institutions, which have a hard enough time maintaining some of the equipment that they do now have as a result of support from senior Governments, those of the federal Government and the province. So, Mr.

Speaker, the whole question of fire prevention is one that I think the Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton) said it very succinctly, one that is very, I am sure, non -partisan in nature, does deserve the full consideration and support of all Mem bers of this Assembly and recognizing that communities in many rural points and of cou rse the No rthern Affairs community, the reserve communities, who are now attempting to build up some fire protection.

Even as for some communities-! know in my own constituency right now there is a debate going on between some of the reserve communities where fire equipment is virtually non-existent- they have attempted to gain the support of services provided by the local government district, the neighbouring local government district, and of course funding in the Nati ve communities being squeezed nationally in the various programs. The resource base in those communities is, to put it quite bluntly, virtually non-existent.

Therefore, they are totally dependent on senior levels of government for the provision of funding to pay for any contract compliance in effect with their neighbouring municipal districts. For some communities, they have not been able to meet their obligations. As a result, they have been served notice that no longer will these services be provided. I think the Minister should be aware. I speak of the communities in the reserves of Lake St.

Martin, Little Saskatchewan and the neighbouring municipal district of the Local Government District of Grahamdale, which virtually, in terms of bound aries, surrounds the Native communities. I would hope that the passage of this legislation and the amendments that have been proposed will in fact be entertained by the Minister and the Government so that these communities can take part and not be subjected to fees in terms of trying to upgrade the volunteer support that they totally, virtually totally, depend upon in maintaining a firefig hting capability within their communities.

So I say to the Mini ster of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) and I ask him to make sure that he speaks with his colleague, the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Conner y), the sponsor of this legislation, to make sure that the communities in the Northern Affairs area, the reserve communities in the province-and some of the rural muni cipaliti es who are on a financial base -t hat whatever formula for funding and fees is established that it be clearly put into the Act that the communities who are less affluent in this province are not subjected to any fees, because they are just coming into their own in terms of upg rading in a modest sense of having some firefig hting capabi lity. So I ask the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr .

Downey) to make sure that he makes his views known to his col league and the amend ments sugges ted by my colleague, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie), be seriously considered when this Bill is in committee. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I, too, would like to take the opportunity to make a few comments in the House on Bill No. 6, The Fires Prevention Amendment Act.

I know, as a resident of northern Manitoba, the importance of having a good fire prevention group in pla ce, because of the fact that many of these pla ces are in real isolated areas where ther e is no t a neighbouring community to come to their rescue when they are faced with a crisis. I know that in some of the communities in The Pas that fall under the responsibilities of Northern Affairs, during my term as Mi nister responsible for Northern Affairs, there was an improvement in many of the facilities tha t the se communi ties have.

Un der the Northern Development Agreement and the Province of Manitoba, there were fire halls put in practically every larger community in northern Manitoba. I know that th ere are fire halls in Cormor ant, Mo ose Lake, Easterville, Pelican Rapids, and although the community of Wanless is not under the Northern Affairs, we, as a Government, under the Community Places project, gave that community an assistance to start to build a fire hall as well.

That community took the initiative and had many fund raising events to make sure that they had some capacity to stop the fires in the event that they were started in the community. They had many fund raising events and we felt, with the effort they were making, that there should certainly be some support from us as a Government when they were coming forward with a suggestion that they have their own fire hall. We felt that it was necessary so we gave them some assistance.

They went to the community of Churchill, who had a fire truck that was no longer needed in that area, and they were given the fire truck and some equipment which assisted volunteer firemen to start some tr aining and provide some of the protection that the people in that community required. * (14 50) lt is throughout those communities that the fire protection is provided by volunteers. There is no permanent firefighling force in those communities, so we are dependent on the volunteers to come forward and provide the protection that those communities require.

I was living in the community of The Pas when I attempted to become a member of the firefighting department, but unfortunately at that time my desire to become a member of the fire department, I was working in an occupation which took me out town on many occasions. I was working with the CNR in the Transportation Department so I was not available for 1070

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 duty often enough so it did not make sense for me to become a member of the firefighting department. I regret that because it is something that I had an ambition for, to become a member of the firefighting department for many years, but I did not have the opportun ity. I believe that the whole area of volunteer fire training is extremely critical because more and more we are faced with fires that are extremely complex in their make-up.

Now there are many chemical fires, many petroleum fires which the fire department members must have some knowledge of the possible fumes that are coming off these fires, that are being created by the fires, so that they are not injured on their own or asphyxia ted when they are in the process of protecting the pr operty of their community.

There are several Northern Affairs communities that take great pride in the firefighting department they have, and I know there is an annual event that is usually held in Waterhen tha t the membe rs of the firefig hting depar tme nts of all the norther n communit ies get together and have a competition, and the community of Nor way Ho use, which has ha d several female members, have won the competition over the last couple of years. I am pleased at the amount of profess ionalism that these volunteer fire departments have put in place over the last several years as the training has improved.

The Department of Northern Affa irs was very re sponsible in pro viding the resources that are necessary to coordinate some of the equipment that is necessary, and as some of the communities grew and became more proficient in their firefighting, the equipment that was there no longer was large enough to serve it, so they got some improved equipment so that as they did not need the equipment anymore, it was passed on to some smaller communities who did not have the same capacity or did not require the same capa city of fir efig hting equipm ent to serve their community.

I think there has been a real coordinating role played by the Department of Northern Affairs and they should be proud of the job that they did carry out. I know that because of the leadership provided by the Department of Northern Affairs, there are many communities now that are much safer than they were in previous years. I know that In my home community of The Pas, there is a volunteer fire department and they are a very efficient group.

This amendment that requires the members of the private sector to come and pay a tuition fee if they are taking training in fire prevention, that is the intent of the amendment, but I think if it goes that one step that it is much easier to take the next step and start charging the members of the Northern Affairs communities to also start charging a tuition fee to those communities.

I know that most of the funding for the Department of Northern Affairs communities is funded by the Government so they would just be taking money from one pocket and then shelling it out to the other pocket, so it really would not make much sense to go in that direction. I guess I have some of the same concerns 1071 that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) has when he put his comments on the record about his concerns about amendments in The Fires Prevention Act. The communi ty of The Pas has a tremendous firefighting department.

As I mentioned earlier, they are a volunteer department as well and they go out on many training sessions. As a matter of fact, they have worked in cooperation with the Emergency Measures Organiz ation to be prepared in the event of a major disaster occurring in that community, and there is potential for it because the community of The Pas is a major transportation centre where many dangerous commodities are moved by the railway and also by the highway transportation as well.

The way the hig hway is located in the town of The Pas, it goes right through the middle of the town, and in order for the communities of Flin Flon, Snow Lake and many communities along the North to get served, they must come through the town of The Pas.

So if there are some dangerous commodities that will be moved by truck or by train, there is always the possibility of a disaster oc curring, because when you are transporting dangerous commodities, I know there can be a simple accident, a vehicle accident or in the event of a railr oad ther e is always the pos sibil ity of a derailment being caused which would cause the cars handling the dangerous commodities to be derailed and cause a fire. I guess, as a member of the transportation union, I was present at one time when there was a fire at Turn berry.

We had left the town of Hudson Bay and were travelling to The Pas and there was a derailment of some propane cars. One of the propane cars ruptured and there was a tremendous fire and the heat that was gi ven off from those cars was just unbearable. There was no way that anybody could go very near the fire, so one of the trainman went back and made a cut as closely as he could to the fire. We took the remainder of the train into the Town of The Pas.

They tried several ways of stopping it and finally they had to call in Red Adair who is world renowned for his expertise in stopping fires, and he was able to stop that propane tank from going on. * (15 00) Mr.

Speaker , I know that the amendment is meant to make the opportunity to charge a tuition to people, corporat ions like the CPR, who would be sending their people to the fire prevention centre, to make sure that their people are further educated in the possi bilities of handling fires of many different components that could be disastrous to members of the commun ity. lt is laudable that they would go in this direction. But I am concerned that if we do not move and start charging, the communities, to Northern Affairs because they are not in a position to pay for the training that may be required.

I guess the fire prevention is something that is very much in the minds of citizens of the country. I guess when you see a disaster, as occurred in Quebec, at the potential of a PCB fire starting up and causing such a gr eat disaster, I know that it can be caused in any larger community because there are PCBs stored

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 in many parts of Manitoba. I know there are some in Flin Flon, Thompson, ThB Pas, Brandon and certainly in major centres of Winnipeg in many areas. There was a disaster in Quebec, and ther e is always that opportunity for a disaster in this province as welL But I guess when people think of fire they always think of the major fires that are really the ones that we need to be concerned about. I think that there could be more education done on what to do in your home to prevent fires.

There should be some amendments put in here that would require all public buildings to have the tools to- I guess there are many homes that have these fire prevention kits in them which will alert someone if there is a fire starting. But I think it should be a requirement that every public building would have it. I think that there should be some greater education carried on in the public, that the homes would also have these fire alarms located in their homes. I know that I have fire alarms in my homes.

I was able to get some information on them, and I felt that for the safety of my family that it was a very small investment to make, to have more peace of mind by having fire alarms installed in my homes. I think that every home should be encouraged to have a fire alarm system in their home because I think it is always a danger that there could be a smoldering fire that we may not be aware of or until it is too late for the people to get out of the home.

So I would encourage that the government would take on some gre ater effort to educate, not only the people in their private homes, but I think it should be a requirement that every public building would have fire alarms located in their homes. Mr. Speaker , I know that there are many other points that should be put on the record.

I guess I have been the critic for the Environment, I have a concern for many of the forest fires that happ en throughout Northern Manitoba and anywhere there is any forest, and I guess the Department of Natural Resou rces have a fire attack unit which is extremely well trained and they are always in a position to get to a forest fire when it first starts out, and they are responsible for stopping many fires before they have an opportunity to become a size where they cannot- where they have to get the extra equipment in and water bombers, and it becomes a major fire.

So I know this fire attack unit has done a tremendous job in Northern Manitoba and I hope that they continue to get the high quality people that they have been able to attract to this occupation because I know that they do a very worthwhile service. Mr. Speaker , those are the comments that I wanted to make. So with those few comments I look forward to the Mini ster bringing in an amendment as our Member for Flin Flon has suggested, and I look forward to supporting the bill when he brings that amendment forward. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): I would like to put a few comments on this Fires Prevention Amendment Act. I would like to talk about the issue of tuition fees respecting the Northern communities, Northern Affairs communities including the reserves in the North. Many of the communities in the North are isolated, they are remote. They do not have access to roads as many of the rural communities in the south. And it is very difficult to, I guess, very difficult to have that kind of service made available to many of the communities.

Many of the forests, not forests, but many of the fires on reserves and Northern Affairs communities have taken many of the lives, and many of the lives were children. As a matter of fact, this winter, just before Christmas, we had a very tragic incident in Red Sucker Lake, where two of the child ren were burnt in a house fire and a loss of a human being, a child, is very tragic and it affects the whole community.

As a matter of fact, my son, Marcel, was almost caught in the house fire in that incident Because what he did was, he happened to be around the vicinity of the house when this house caught fire and there were two children screaming inside and he went in through the window into the house, and at that time the house was full of heat and smoke, and he was able to feel his way into the bedroom where he felt one of the children.

He just managed to throw the child out through the window and the next thing he knew, he said, it was as if he was being thrown out from the house. * (151 0) To me, that-you know, I could have lost a son. He managed to throw the small boy out but the boy did not survive as a result of the heat, smoke and inhalation. The boy did not survive. The other little girl did not survive that house fire.

If we had some proper training, some fire prevention, and also even a good quality house built on that reserve or any other community, none of them- maybe many of the lives of the children, even adults, maybe today these people might be still alive. So it is The Fires Prevention Amendment Act which causes concern in terms of tuition I guess, because people in those communities cannot afford to pay for the fees if the Government decides to charge the fees to those Northern Affairs communities. The fire colleges are funded by premiums and are able to train firemen from all over Manitoba.

Many of the communities have sent in people from the community to be trained. I know in the North there is some training that has been done, and also some fire prevention work, training is being done in the No rth through the No rthern Development Agreement I know that many of the homes were equipped with fire detectors or smoke alarms so that the homes would be protected, so that the people in those homes would be warned in advance if a fire was breaking out.

But I must say that many of the reserves do not have any kind of funding for fire protection or to purchase fire equipment because I know, I can speak from experience. When I was Chief of the Red Sucker Lake Band we did not have any funding for any kind of municipa l-type services. We were just given token 1072

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 amounts of money for road maintenance-not even any for sanitation collection. We did not have any money for sanitation collection. We were given-for policing, constable-type service for the band, but the funding was very inadequate. I at that time started doing some research and analyzi ng, trying to compare some of these municipal type services that are provided in the City of Winni peg versus my home reserve, Red Sucker Lake. The policing per capita costs of funding that was provided and policing services were maybe 10 times higher than what was gr anted to the Indian bands.

Many of the Indian bands do not even have a water and sewer system in the reserve. They do not even have fire trucks or any kind of equipment to fight housing fires or even forest fires in the area. As a matter of fact, many of the reserves which are situated along the side of a Northern Affairs community, I find that Northern Affairs communities are better equipped to fight fires in their communities.

Many times the Northern Affairs community assists the reserves in putting out these fires or responding to an emergen cy, because the bands do not have the equipment and the two communities are able to work togeth er. I know, last winter, too, when I was in Gods Narrows, one of the houses burned down and the community did not have proper equipment. They had sort of a tractor with a trailer, with a water tank on top of it, and then the tractor did not work at that particular time because of the wintertime. lt was slipping and did not actually provide the service that it was supposed to.

We need to look at the whole area of fire protection and fire prevention in many of those communities. I know that this amendment is not trying to restrict the access to fire training or anything, but rather I would ask the Government, through the Mini ster of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey), to ensure that at some point the tuition fees-comes the question that the Northern Affairs communities should not have to pay for the training that is required. Many of the services, the volunteer services, are done as a community-community involvement.

As a matter of fact, as mentioned previously by my colleagues, these people, Northern Affairs comm unities, usually get together and have these rodeos, contests, and have fun in the summertime to demo nstrate their techniques, you know, for putting out a fire or pulling out the hose and th ose kind of activities. lt pr ovides some encouragement and pride in many of these communities because of the volunteer work they have done, the skills that they have developed.

Also, many of the Northern Affairs, the reserve communities lack modern-day equipment to fight the house fires in many of the homes, and also they need to be trained in areas of the kind of fires that they will have to fight against, whether it be just an ordin ary fire or a chemical type fire, and they would have to be trained how to put it out. I know, in my reserve, Red Sucker Lake, we had a close call this summer, where we had the forest fires 1073 surrounding the community, and many of the residents felt insecure because they did not have any kind of protection or equipment to protect themselves.

There was some cause for concern- because some people ha d ail ments, had as thma and some breathing problems-w hether they should be evacuated. * (15 20) One weekend when I was home, I thought there was a fog in the community. lt was hard to see because of the forest fires that were burning around the community of Red Sucker Lake. I realize that this summer was a particularly hot summer and there were many forest fires that occurred throughout the entire Province of Manitoba.

One of the questions that was raised to me in terms of responsi bility about whose jurisdiction it is in respect to the Indian reserves, are forest fires that are really adjacent or close to the reserve, whether they should go out and put out the fire. Because a lot of times they do it on voluntary work, but yet they incur expenses to go out and put the forest fires out. This is one area that we need to clarify with the Government.

Who would be paying those expenses? lt costs a lot of money to go out, say, across the lake. lt might cost you maybe 10 bucks just to go across the lake and the time and equipment to go across. I know we had one incident at one point here, a member of the Indian Band Council asking for reimbursement for forest fires that were not necessarily being spent on reserves but outside. That area has to be clarified because they spent a considerable amount of money to put out the forest fire.

They cannot phone to a centre where the conservation head office might be because a lot of times communities that do not have conservation officers around, they would have to phone in sometimes. The conservation officer would have to check the situation out before he warrants any kind of expenditures or whether the forest fire should be left alone. Many of the reserves want to assure themselves of security and want to deal with the problem right away, and they go ahead and put the fire out. That is where the question of jurisdiction comes in. Who actually is responsi ble for the expenditures of the monies?

That is one area that I always get questioned on and ·1 would ask for clarification from I guess the Mini ster of Natural Resources who is responsible for protection of the resources, how that money should be spent or whether there are any monies available to assist many of the reserves who are firefig hting, protecting the resources in the province. In terms of the fires prevention Act, I just want to put a few things on record in regard to this amendment because it will cause some concern in many of the Northern Affairs communities.

Reserves, if they are to be charged tuition fees for access to training which is made available by the fire col leges at the present time. I would ask the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) to look into this matter and make sure that the interests of the northern communities are protected. With that, I would like to say thank you for granting me this opportun ity. Mr . Helmut Pankratz (la Verendrye): I move, seconded by the Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 Bill NO. 8-THE COURT OF QUEEN' S BENCH SMAll ClAIMS PRACTICES AMENDMEN T ACT Mr . Speaker: On the pr opo sed motion of the Honour able Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae), Bill No. 8, The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claim s Practices Amendment Act; Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine, stand ing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Transcona (Mr . Kozak). Mr . Richard Kozak (Transcona): The Official Opposition supports this Bill in principle, although we reserve the right to introduce amendment s during committee consideration. Having said that, I adjourned debate on this Bill on behalf of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr . Minenko). I ask that he now be recognized. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): I liked your speech far better than I am sure . . . . Mr.

Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): I appre ciate the confidence in my remarks expressed by the Honourable Mem ber for Arthur (Mr . Downey) I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Attorney-General (M r. McCrae) for introducing this matter before the House in this first Session of this Legislature, in that I cer tainly think this is a matter of grave importance to many Mem bers of all of the communities which we represent.

However, I would like to comment on some of his remarks, and certai nly his comments with respect to the expense of the whole legal procedure and process is in fact correct and true and accurate. He certainly seems to sugge st that perhaps lawyers are many of the reasons for this expense. Although many would agree that legal services are expensive, I believe that all lawyers do in fact work very hard at their profession and certainly provide assistance to many people across this province in dealing with problems and so on that they may not have otherwise considered or even dealt with.

The real question is, lawyers work with the law and the regulations as provided and presented to them by the Legislatures and by the courts across this land. They do not make laws themselves. They do not make regulations themselves, which we are all governed by. As a result, the expense is directly resulting from the laws which we are here today considering.

As a result, I think it incumbent upon law legislators, not only in the Manitoba Legislature but in every House across this land, to consider this in their deliberations and our deliberations and to consider this factor when we make changes to laws, when we introd uce new laws and new regulations. Small Claims Court is used for many reasons and many different claims, claims dealing with matters of contra ct and also claims dealing with Autopac. As I am sure the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr.

Cummings) has considered, the fact that many of the claims appearing before the adjudicators and the clerks and mag istrates in the Small Claims Court arise out of disputes with respect to deductibles and who is at fault, in fact, in various accidents. * (1 530) I think the Government would do well to again consider some of the Official Oppositions' campaign promises and planks, specifically dealing with this aspect. The Liberal Party in this last election suggested that there be an impartial non-political appeal process built into the adjudic ation processes we presently see.

I and many other counsel across Manitoba and perhaps throughout Canada have represented clients dealing with a $50 deductible, stemming from what they conside red a fault of the adjuster in determining liabil ity. Now, although $50 in itself and, with the increases, $250 and so on, although the apparent amount is relatively small, I think what we have to consider is the fact that it certainly affects the possible surcharges that arise from accidents as they happen, especially with the changes to the regulations extending the period from 12 months to three years.

Now, the effect again is not that initial deductible, but the potential surcharges that will have to be applied to one's licence, as well as potential other surcharges to your insurance. So as a result, we see that, although the small claim starts initially as a small claim, it affects many different aspects of an individual's privileges and responsibil ities with his driving record.

Another matter to consider in this whole aspect in Small Claims Court is that, yes, it is indeed used as a forum for people with small claims to present their case in perhaps a less threatening environment than a more superior cou rt. As a resu lt, I think the atmosphere has to be created in the Small Claims Court to allow for these people to feel comfortable with the surroundings and proce edings.

I think one of the most important aspects of feeling comfortable about the proceedings of a court before which you appear is that the decision of that court is in fact a decision made in complia nce with the general laws of the province or of the land. This is where perhaps the amendments of this Government did not quite go far enough. For example, many lawyers across this province have represented clients in a small claims forum, have presented the evidence, have cross-examined any witnesses by the other side, and then they come to legal argument.

Legal argument is an opportunity for counsel and the judge or magi strate sitting in on any case to review the facts of that particular case within a legal context, within a body of law tha t ha s developed over time with foundations in England and throughout other Commonwealth countries, and specifically in Canada. One of the greatest difficulties encountered by many claimants, plaintiffs and defendants in our Small Claims Court is that decisions are oftentimes made, sometimes truly in a position different than what the accepted principles of the law set out.

For example, the whole aspect of corporate vail, that argument, even though when presented with decisions of the Manitoba Court of Appeal, the hig hest court in 10 74

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 this province, oftentimes magistrates have ruled against the particular individual before the court for whatever reason and saying that reasons do not have to be issued out of a Small Claims Court. There are no bases from which you can understand that particular decision. As a result, what is really only left to that particular individual and claimant is to appe al that decision, taking it out of the realm of the Small Claims Court and into the realm, a much more expen sive realm may I add, of the Queen's Bench.

As a result, the various court procedures, pre-court procedures and trial procedu res come into play with of course the resultant increase in costs. As a result, many provinces have identified this as a problem and ensured that the individuals hearing the case in Small Claims Court are legally trained, are either part-time judges, lawyers in the community who are appointed to sit on small claims matters, or in fact full-time judges, again legally trained.

I think this is the important aspect in this whole debate about Small Claims Court that. yes, people with claims that appear to be small, although I may add that these claims are in fact serious enough for each individual claimant, these Small Claims Courts then become simply a forum to review the facts from which you can then expect an appeal. That is the unfortunate aspect in this whole matter. This unfortunately has not been add ressed in the amendments as proposed in this Bill and I would hope that, after the debate on the second reading, perhaps the Attorney-General (Mr .

McCrae) and his department can review that, as well as again considering the reco mmendations as presented by the Law Reform Commission Report dated, I believe, 1983 in this matter, where again they support the assurance that these mag istrates are in fact legally trained, if not full-time judge s. The Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae) in his opening remarks with respect to this Bill cited that the Small Claims Court will be improved in three ways. The increase to the limit to $5,000 is in fact moving in the right direction.

An increase in this amount allows again individuals to perhaps by-pass some of the expenses involved in the Queen's Bench process for the claims. But, as pointed out very aptly by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr . Ernst), the whole problem in the whole court system is how they in fact collect. You may in fact get judgment against someone, but how do you collect? I am sure the Attorney-General (Mr.

McCrae) and his staff are reviewing this area and perhaps we will see some proposals because it is not enough. lt is all well and good that you may go to Small Claims Court and get your judgment, but as many people have said, it is only worth the value of the paper on which it is printed on. This is the other important aspect which I am sure the Attorney-General will be addressing in the future and certainly as emphasized by his colleague, the Mini ster of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr . Ernst). The other aspect that the Attorney-General (Mr .

McCrae) introduces in this Bill is to introduce the default judgm ent proce edings. 1t is in fact an in tere sting 1075 development in this area to introduce this default judg ment which is in fact truly an extraordinary provision in our law which certainly puts a greater onus upon the defendant to ap pear.

Very often def enda nts being sued for various amounts, at whatever level of court, often disregard the statements of claim, allow them to lapse and as a result perhaps show that they do not feel that they are touched by the authority of the court I certainly think this is perhaps an appropriate area to expand the Small Claims Court jurisdiction, but I think it should be weighed with the effect of having people who are indeed legally trained considering these cases. As my colleague, the Member for St. James (Mr.

Edwards), has pointed out in his earlier comments, I think an important aspect of default judgment that has been missed and perhaps can be add ressed by the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae) is the aspect of having to still prove your case, that perhaps it should not be good enough for a plai ntiff to simply prove to the court that in fact the documents have been served. I think, as again the Member from St. James has pointed out. that the plaint iff should go one step further and prove his case to show that in fact he does have a valid claim against that particular defendant.

I have simply proposed this not to increase any court cost, because if a particular defendant is not prepared to attend in court and if a particular plaintiff has chosen a particular methodology of introducing his claim into the court system, I do not think an extra few minutes of court time to show that he in fact is owed some money, to show that it in fact was not his fault, or to set out the circumstances, adding the appearance that justice was indeed done, not simply that this was a situation or circums tance where decisions were made in a dark room, I think that is an impo rtant aspect.

Again, perhaps, the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae) will gi ve this ma tter some serious thought and consideration and include it in some amendments to this particular Bill, because our objective here is to ensure that matters before any court in this province are done in a fashion that everyone can see as fair, as equitable, and justifiable in any situation. There is reference in the Attorn ey-General's opening remarks on this Bill with respect to what he referred to, and affectionatel y known in the legal community, as "bumping up" a particular claim through the present filing of a Notice of Objection.

If, for example, a defendant feels that he would prefer that a legally trained person should review the case, should hear the case, then that defendant has the right to file this Notice of Obj ection and the case would automatically be heard at the Superior Court. * (15 40) Again, as we have heard in this Chamber, on many opportuni ties this clause is used by many defendants to either prolong or to prevent a quick solution to a particular aspect or a particular claim against them.

However, I would suggest to this Chamber that one of the other principal reasons for defendants using this particular privilege, this particular rule, in our court

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 system is that they may well have serious doubts. They may well have considered what has happened before in a Small Claims Court and would prefer that a legally trained person review this. Again, Mr. Spe aker, we are going back to the initial suggestions from Mem bers from this side who have said that a legally trained person should, in fact, consider these matters.

The clerks and magistrates who have completed a laudable job to now, I do not believe should be placed in a position where they have to consider not only divergent views as to the facts but also perhaps many fine distinctions in law; and , as a result, I think we would be much better served if this be introduced into this Bill as well. Ma y I say in conclusion tha t-1 see tha t the Honourable Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey) has in fact enjoyed my comments this afternoon and perhaps I can continue on then if he has in fact enjoyed them. Perhaps Mr. Speaker could advise the House how much time I have remaining. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member has 20 minutes remaining. Mr. Minenko: In that case, Mr. Speaker- An Honourable Member: We are going to get him another pail of water. Mr. Minenko: That pail of water referred to may well be used to douse the Mem bers on the other side. Mr. Speaker , though, in conclusion, I would like to add my remarks to the previous Mem bers from this side in cong ratulat ing the Attorney-General (Mr .

McCrae) for introducing these amendments to the Small Claims Court because they are amendments that are geared towards expanding the use of our Small Claims Court system by many people across this province. I think it is important that the legal process be available to anyone who wants to use that and should not be simply set aside for those who are either in a position to afford the costs or those who fall within the Legal Aid system.

Here we have another example of the people in the middle who have been taxed by the previous Government, the people who are the first to suffer under all forms of taxation both at the federal and the provincial level, the people who cannot perhaps afford many of those things that people at either end of the scales can use. This certainly applie s in the legal system. lt would be indeed unfortunate if anything was done to take this process away from what is largely defined as the middle-income group.

I would hope that the Attorney-General through his deliberations with his staff, who have in fact gone through the processes instead of being an observer from the court reporter's position, will be able to advise him that it is important to include some of the provisions that I have recommended and that the Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr . Edwards) ha d recommended. Our objectives here are to ensure that the legal process is available and affordable to all. Thank you very much, Mr. Speak er. Mr. Bill llruski (lnterlake): Mr.

Speaker , on behalf of our Party, I wish to make a few comments dealing with the amendments to the Court of Queen's Bench, dealing with the small claims provisions of the legislation and the likelihood, unless there are other Members who wish to speak, it can proceed to committee. The proposals contained in the legislation are similar to those proposals that were brought forward by my colleague, the former Memb er for Rossmere, the Honourable Vie Sch roeder, who was Attorney-General prior to the election in April, and those amendments are very similar in nature.

Although we had discussions, and I should point out to you and Members of the House, Mr. Speak er, within caucus about this legislation, I want to indicate to all Members that there are a number of concerns and questions that I will be raising that I hope the Attorney-General (Mr . McCrae) will take into account when he closes debate or will bring the information to committee. I want to indicate, first of all, that this legislation, the Small Claims Court provisions, were brought in while I was a new Member in this Assembly approxima tely, if my memory serves me correct ly, 15 years ago or thereabouts.

That was an inno vative provision because anyone who did have claim against another party for debts owed, whether it be in an insurance liability claim for deductible or whether it be debts owed for a repair bill of sorts or whatever, a retail purchase or what ever the amount would be, it was deemed the provisions of the day were in fact cumbersome and, to say the least, costly. In many instances, I am sure there were thousands of cases at the time that went uncontested.

Basically, people said, look, I am not going to pay the costs of the litigation that is involved in this instance and basically wrote off the amount that was owed. Those were the situations that were faced by many creditors who were seeking reimbursement for monies owed by debtors who make purchases or whatever. * (1 550) We brought in the original Act in the early Seventies. I believe that the amount at that time, $200 or $300, was the initial ceiling by which claims over that amount have to be litigated.

Clearly, this legislation increases 1 the amount now up to $3,000, or claims of $3,000 or less, which do not have to be litigated, virtually a tenfold increase in about 15 years.- (Interjection)- The Mini ster of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey) indicates to me from his seat inflation has certainly taken its toll in the area of litigation. I believe that the increase should follow its course and with the cost of doing business and the like that changes on an annual basis or semi-annual basis should be made to the Claims Court provisions.

They have allowed greater and greater access to the courts by people who normally (

a) could not afford the services of legal counsel; or (

b) the amount that is owed would not warrant the expense of hiring legal counsel, and/ or the need to hire legal counsel in some cases. That access to a simplified procedure for a very nominal fee has allowed to have these cases proceeded very expeditiously over the years. 1076 There are some concerns, I believe, that should be raised. I believe that-the Attorney-General can correct

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 me if I am wrong-the greatest users of the system of the present provisions of this Small Claims Court provisions are, in fact, larger institutions, basically bill collecting firms, like utilities, retail stores and financial institutions who use the provisions of the Small Claims Court provisions the most frequently. I believe that these users and the use of the Small Claims Court provisions should be monito red in this sense, Mr .

Sp eak er, tha t if in fact there is an overzealousness of use of the Small Claims Court procedure in terms of the delinquency of payments and the institution, what I would call basically jumps the gun and right away starts going to Small Claims Court procedure, then there should be a monitoring of the use.

However, I want to as well say that for those who are involved on the other side in the Small Claims Court procedure and who just use that procedure to delay and delay payments that if they contest the judg ment that is being placed against them through the Small Claims Court procedure, there should not be any long term delays given those individuals to say, well, now I want to go to the higher court and have my case heard, so give me some more time.

There should be some fairly strict guideline s provided that basically that form of justice is carried on expeditiously or more expeditiously, since I believe that Small Claims Court procedure was set up to lessen the load on higher courts. In fact, by lessening that higher load, the conte sted cases should be able to be heard much more expeditiously. So I would suggest to the Attorney General that he consider looking at the procedures now, especially in the areas of contested cases. I know that this legislation in the amendments are basically housekeeping, but updating in nature.

I want to ask the Attorney-General, specifically, whether there may be some constitutional concerns or impediments as a result of these amendments that he is proposing. If he has sought legal opinion on this legislation, whether there may be some constitutional questions and to report back to the House on the advice that he has received from his department, if any, whether they have sought legal opinions.

If they have, I would like to be, and I think Mem bers of this House would like to be aware whether or not increasing of the amount and the procedures that are contained in this Bill whether there may be some constitutional problems. In allowing this Bill on behalf of Members of our caucus to proceed to committee, I am hopeful that the Attorney-General will in fact consider some of the sugge stions tha t I ha ve made. I under stan d, Mr .

Speaker , that there probably will be others who will wish to speak on these amendments, on this legislation, and indicate that while we have some questions, we are prepar ed to support this legislation and send it to committee and will await the comments of the Attorney General and his staff on constitutional matters and some of the suggestions that we have made. Mr. Jim Maloway (Eim wood): I move, seconded by the Member for The Pas (Mr . Harapiak), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO. 9-STA TUTE LAW AMENDMENT (RE-ENACTED STATUTES) ACT Mr.

Speaker: On the pr oposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 9, Statute Law Amendment (R e-enacted Statutes) Act; Loi modifiant diverses dispositions legis latives (Lois readoptees), standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). The Honourable Member for St. James. Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): This Government Bill, it is our understanding, is simply a continuation of the process started by Government Bills Nos. 4 and 5, in that it attempts to complete the process of re-enacting the statutes of Mani toba in accordance with the Supreme Court of Canada decision, all of which has to be done within a specified period of time and a very stringet set of time limitations.

I made fairly lengthy comments on Government Bill No. 4 -(Interjection)- Yes, and I hear the word "incredible." I thank the Honourable Member for that compliment. * (16 00) lt is my intention at this time to simply reiterate those comments and direct this Ho use to those comments in respect of this Bill as well, and to indicate that this side of the House is pleased to see that these re enactment statutes are early on the docket of the Government. We whole-heartedly support the moves to have our statutes put back into the form that, as we all know now, they should have been for nigh on 100 years. Thank you. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Spe aker, if no one else cares to speak, I would recommend that this Bill go to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The Honourable Member for the lnterlake. Mr. Bill Uruski (lnterlake): Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the Hono urable Member for The Pas (Mr . Harapiak), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. Mr . Speaker: On the pr oposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 11 , The Child Custody Enforcement Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'execution des ordonn an ces de garde, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). (Stand) On the propo sed motion of the Honourable Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 14, The Regulations Act;

Loi sur les textes reglementair es, standing in the name of the Honour able Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). (Stand) On the propo sed motion of the Honourable Attorney General (Mr . McCrae), Bill No. 15, The Cooperative Promotion Trust Act;

Loi sur le fonds en fiducie de promotion de la coopera tion, standing in the name of 1077

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 the Honourable Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans). (Stand) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): In view of the fact that we have proceeded through the Bills, I would like to move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Mini ster of Muni cipal Affairs (Mr . Cummings). MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Suppl y to be gr ante d to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Min nedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Community Services; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr . Mi nenko) in the Chair for the Department of Industr y, Trade and Tourism. * (16 10) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SU PPLY-C OMMUNI TY SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: We are in the Department of Community Services. We are on item 1.(c)( 1) Salaries, $752,000.00. Shall the item pass? The Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Yesterday we left off talking about the day care issue.

I would like to ask a few more questions on that very pressing, important matter. Pursuant to the questions I asked in the House and my opinion that the Mi nister did not answer those questions directly, could I ask the Min ister, in the event that a subsidy going with the parent, as outlined by the Min ister in her recent annou ncement of yesterday, was able to go the direction of- let me get it straight. If a parent meeting that particular program was able to find a space in a private profit centre, who would make up the difference? Mrs. Gerrie Hammond (Kirk field Park): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman: A point of order. Mrs. Hammond: Does this come under Research and Planning, or would this be better where it comes under Child Day Care, under the lines under day care? I would go along with what the Chairman says, but I do feel that there are a number of lines for Child Day Care, and we might be better served if we had the staff in who cover day care. Mr. Chairman: The Member does not have a point of order, but I would remind all Mem bers that speeches in the committee should be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I have no intentions of making any speeches.

I have been trying to get information on a number of issues. We have not had much success. They are issues that clearly fall in the purview of Research and Planning, and they relate to work that has been done by her department to back up decisions made to provide policy advice to determine directions that this Government will take us in.

Yesterday, I asked the question on what research this announcement was made, what planning was done, what compa rative analysis was done to give us some evidence that this system would actually work, and some reason for this major new direction being taken at this time while other issues are left to this task force. Now, I would hope and expect that this department has some backup for its policies. I would assume that some of that work, I would think some of that work is done by her Research and Planning Branch, and so I am going to ask those questions again.

We would like to know very much, since we are talking about a major use of public funds going in a particular direction that has been untried and untested with no verification from the Min ister, no proof, no analysis, no studies to indicate how it will work, and how it will transla te into what spaces, who will pay the difference between the subsidy and the rates being charged by private day care centre, how current centres, non-profit centres will manage without any increase in their maintenance and salary en hancement grants. The list goes on and on.

Let me start with those basic questions and that request for information, and if the Minister-all we can assume from this refusal by the Mini ster to answer the question is that decisions are being made outside of the department in some other part of the Government. Based on what has been forwarded to us today on the foster parents issue, we assume that the Premier's Office is making all the decisions, and the Mini ster is not at all informed about what policy directions she is taking, and receiving no statistical, empirical, theoretical backup to any of her policy decisions. Hon.

Char lotte Oleson (M inister of Communi ty Services): The Membe r can make all the assumptions she wants, but this Mini ster is in charge of the day care department in the Department of Community Services. There was no research done under Research and Planning with regard to day care. If the Member wishes to discuss day care, she should wait until the day care line of the Estimates. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could I ask then why the Suppl ementa ry Estimates refers to the Research and Planning Branch of her department as a branch that pr ovides ad vice and research and background information on all aspects of the department, on all policy matters? Related to that, what does this branch do, if it has not to date provided policy advice on any single issue that has come before the public, any serious policy issue that is being debated, that the Min ister keeps raising, by virtue of annou ncements and statements and new directions? Mrs.

Oleson: The Research and Planning Branch of this department is a small branch. They do assignments 1078

Wednesday, September 7, 1988 on research and planning, as they are assigned to do. They have not been assigned to do any in the day care area because we have a day care branch which looks after that. If the Mem ber wishes to have the information on what the Research and Planning Branch does, I could give that to her.

Their specific respon sibilities include: coordination of departmental and interdepartmental cos t-sharing negotiations with Canada; interdepartmental, intergovernmental liaison re program and policy devel opment; ad min istration of the department's contractual research with external agencie s; departmental coordination of Native policy development and tripartite negotiations; coordination of legislation development and amend ments; coordination of the Decade of the Disabled persons initiatives, which we discussed the other day; assessing and assisting with the development of policy and operational options on behalf of the department.

I repeat, we have a day care branch which does any policy and planning on day care, that branch is responsible for. * (16 20) Hon. James Downey (Mi nister of Northern Affairs): Just to try and be helpful to expedite the activities of the committee, probably the way it should be is for the committee to pass this issue so they can get to day care. That is really the way in which it normally would work, or else have the committee stick to the relevant items or questions dealing with the item that is there, rather t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5afdf3791ff0dbe4fa0ab80ba1522af3be9b4be1

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