LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 19 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips : Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions .. Presenting Reports by Stand ing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Madam Speaker, I beg leave to table and distribute to the House, Supplementary Information for the Legislative Review of the 1987-88 Estimates, for the Department of the Attorney-General. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education.

HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health, I'd like to table the Supplementary Estimates Review Informa tion for the year 1987-88. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I beg leave to distribute the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 1987-88 Estimates , for the Department of Municipal Affairs. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 36,

An Act to amend The Religious Societies' Lands Act; Loi modi fi ant la

Loi sur Jes biens-fonds des communautes religieuses. HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 37,

An Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la reglementation des alcools . ORAL QUESTIONS Meech Lake - tabling of legal documents MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the First Minister . On Wednesday, the officials of the 10 provinces and the Federal Government will be meeting to put together the legal form of the agreement in principle on the Constitution that was arrived at at Meech Lake. I wonder if the Premier would agree to table the legal documents, the draft legal documents, that are presented to that meeting after they are received by the province.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I would not be in a position to do that unless there was a withdrawal of any caveat on the part of the Federal Government in regard to the proposal that they had presented to the 10 provinces. So I'd have to accept that question as one of notice , because I believe the re is a caveat. Meech Lake - raise matter of caveat MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder, Madam Speaker , if the Premier would agree to raise the matter of the caveat at the meeting, have it raised so that after the meeting whatever is agreed to by the participants could be released publicly . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I'll take that under consideration. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier then indicating , as a result of this caveat, that nothing will be allowed to be made public until such a time as the legal agreements have been agreed upon by the various provinces and the Federal Government; that, in fact, we'll know nothing publicly until everything has been agreed to by the 1 O provinces and the Federal Government? HON. H. PAWLEY: I want to relieve any reservation that the Leader of the Opposition might have insofar as positions being made public.

From my point of view , I believe that positions should be made public, including the federal proposals, so that there can be full and proper discussion . I believe our Legislature may be the only one, outside of the Quebec, which will have indeed public input at some point in regard to the constitutional changes. But, yes, I believe that the proposal should be made public . Public Trustee - taxing estates of mentally incompetent and elderly MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Last week, the Attorney-General tabled the Report of the Public Trustee , which shows revenue of almost $2.3 million and expenditures of $1.69 million, showing a profit of some $600,000.00. Inasmuch as the Public Trustee looks after the estates of mentally incompetent and elderly people, would the Attorney-General explain to the House the reason for this policy of taxing the estates of mentally incompetent and elderly people by some $600,000.00? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. 2099

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 HON . R. PENNER: Yes, Madam Speaker, that certainly is not our policy. The posit ion taken by the Public Trustee - and one which we support - is that he seeks to assess the minimum charges necessary to maintain the operation . It may be that in any given year there might be a slight surplus and in the following year there might be a slight deficit, but when we're looking at the management of an estate portfolio of $70 million and growing, it's not always possible to fine-tune it to that extent.

But I can assure the member and the House that it is not our policy to atte mpt to make, as he put it, a profit on the management of those estates - not at all. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, inasmuch as it was not unti l this government assumed office, and in 1984-85 the Public Trustee 's Office showed a profit of $250,000; and in'85-86 , $600,000; and in this year's Estimates they show expenditures of $1.9 million, with revenue of $2.5 million, I'd like some clarification of the Minister's statement that these figures are up and down.

Revenues were always lower than expenditures, up until two or three years ago under this government. They're now showing, for the second year in a row, a profit of $600 ,000.00. How does the Minister and the government justify taxing the estates of mentally incompetent people and elderly people by this amount? HON. R. PENNER: I've already said but I have no hesitation in repeating it, it is not our policy to seek to make a profit or to get into a surplus position, to be more accurate, in the management of these estates .

I want to say, again for the record, that it is the Public Trustee who sets the amount that is charged for the services. We do not, either by legislation or by Order­ in-Council or by direction from this Minister, tell the Public Trustee what should be charged. The fact that for two years in a row there's been a relat ively small - and in the government scale of things it is relatively small - surplus position, does not in itself argue that is the policy. I simply say again, that is not the policy.

Further to that, the member of course is free to, and no doubt will, raise these questions during Estimates and , if required, I can make sure that the Public Trustee is available for any further questions. Public Trustee - request to lower fees on estates of mentally incompetent and elderly MR. G.

MERCIER: In view of the fact that the Public Trustee's Office under this government made a profit of $250,000 on the estates of mentally incompetent and elderly people in 1984-85 , $600 ,000 last year, and their Estimates of Expenditures and Revenue show another $600,000 profit this year, will the Attorney­ General direct the trustee to lower his fees so that the estates of mentally incompetent and elderly people are not taxed at such a large amount, Madam Speaker? HON. R.

PENNER: The member's concerns will be certainly discussed with the Public Trustee and , I reiterate, any further detailed examination of the Public Trustee 's estimates can be made during Estimates , which may begin as ear ly as Wednesday of this week. When we get to that p oin t in the Estimates , eith er toward s the end of th is week or the beginning of next week, the Public Trustee can be made avail able. Sugar beet industry - compliance with Clean Environment Commission MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Memb er for Fort Garry . MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speake r.

My question is directed to the Acting Minis ter responsib le for the Environment. Severa l weeks ago I spoke to the Minister of the Environment about the odours emanating from the sugar plant in Fort Garry . He had indicated at that time that there was going to be a review as to whether or not the sugar plant was in compliance with its licence . Could the Minister in question determine whether or not there has been, in fact, compliance with the order issued by the Clean Environment Commission? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Co­ op Development. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you , Madam Speaker .

I would be pleased to take that question as notice and have the Minister answer the question upon his return to the House or shortly thereafter. Sugar beet industry - reconsideration of Clean Environment Comm. standard MR. C. BIRT: Then perhaps the Minister could also take this question as notice: If the plant is in compliance w ith the order iss ued by the Clean Environment Commission , would the Minister then consider having the Clean Environment Commission review its order , in light of the recent odo urs emanating from the plant and being complained of by the residents in the area? HON. J.

COWAN: The re are certainly procedur es available to the Minister , as well as to the general public , in respect to initiating reviews and bringing concerns forward of that matter, and I'm certain that, when the Minister returns to the House, he'll be pleased to answer that question and provide further advice as to what might be undertaken in respect to the concerns that are being expressed. Water Services Board - conclusion of agreement MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker , I direct a question to the First Min ister in his capacity as the Minister responsible for fed eral-provincial relations . Madam Speake r, h is Minister of Agriculture and the Water Services Board has some $60 million worth of applications from various communities across Manitoba 2100

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 for improvements to their sewer and water projects in their communities. In private discussion with the Minister he indicates that , if a successful conclusion of a dev elopmental agreement with Ottawa can ~e completed, that would assist considerably in the movin·g forward of these projects . My question to the First Minister: Are there any difficulties or reasons that he is aware of that this agreement cannot be concluded with Ottawa?

My understanding is that Saskatchewan has successfully concluded just this kind of an agreement and is proceedin g, you know, at a considerably more rapid pac e with these kind of projects . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that is indeed one of the items that have been under active discussion with the Federal Government, is Community Water Agreement. In fact, during the Prime Minister's visit, one of the items that we discussed briefly was such an agreement.

The Minister is continuing his work in order to attempt to bring about a successful completion of discussions relating to a province-wide Community Water Agreement. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , I thank the First Minister for that response. I know that I can offer the assistance of my leader, indeed our whole group, in expediting those negotiations if that help is asked for, Madam Speaker. But can the Minister give me some indication? Is a conclusion of that agreement imminent or is there a difficulty in coming to a conclusion of that agreement?

Many communities in Manitoba are awaiting some speed-up of their work that they have applied for, in some case s for several years now. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, all that I think would be appropriate for me to indicate at this time is that two parties are discussing such an agreement. I would be hesitant to say it's imminent or soon, until we ensure that we can say that with some sense of certainty, that one is going to be completed , except to say that certainly the Province of Manitoba is committed to further those discussions.

Provincial parks - situations on long weekend MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: This is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Based on the activities, unfortunate situations , that developed on the long weekend in some of our provincial parks, which included drunkeness, fighting, rowdyism, with as many as 100 people having to be evicted from one of the parks , can the Minister indicate whether the reason for the activities is lack of staffing, or is it lack of regulations that is creating this kind of a situation?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. 2101 HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would want to point out, at the outset, that what happened at Falcon Lake was not typical of what was going on in our parks over the weekend. We have indication that there was very little in the way of difficulty in all of our other parks . In this one location, there was a problem . Now the member asks whether it was due to a shortage in staffing or some other matters. Indications to us are that it was not any of those matters related to the operation of the department.

It appears it was excessi ve use of alcohol in a group of young adults who chose, in this case, to gather as a group at Falcon Lake . Provincial parks - action re rowdiness MR. A. DRIEDGER: Another question to the same Minister , Madam Speaker . Can the Minister indicate what kind of action he is contemplating for the future, so that families with children, when they get out to provincial parks , can enjoy them without this kind of a situation developing? HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Again , Madam Speaker , I would want to point out that every communication that has emanated from the Department of Natural Resources indicates clearly that we want in our parks to have an atmosphere wherein families can find enjoyment, individuals can find enjoyment. We do not seek to have an atmosphere in which any particular group would impose themselves on visitors to the parks . I've asked for a review of the situation , Madam Speaker, to see what can indeed be done to minimize the incidents of this nature.

We are concerned, we want to have, as has been indicated, an atmosphere in the parks wherein all people will find it comfortable and enjoyable. Core Area Initiative Program - training programs to involve core area unemployed MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs. As a partner in the Core Area Initiative Program, we know that part of that initiative is to involve those in the core who have, for long periods of time , been unemployed .

Can the Minister inform the House if any follow-up and evaluations are done on the training programs by his department or if they're made available by the overall initiative to his department? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Thank you , Madam Speaker . The Core Area office has evaluated the training program in the first five-year or first-core program, and that is a public document that I could make available to the honourable member .

Tuesday, 19 t-.,ay, 1987 Geronto logy Community Worker Program - wasted due to lack of employment MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister . Can the Minister tell the House today if much of the training program has been wasted in that, for example , in the Gerontology Community Worker Program, 17 were trained at a cost of thousands and thousands of dollars, and only three have in fact found employment in that area? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, the member is correct in terms of the Gerontology Program, and that's been made public.

In fact , I met with a number of the gerontology students a period of time ago and I was also at the graduation. Madam Speaker, there were about 150 graduates at the Core Area Training Program just recently, and the majority of them, a great number of them, had jobs already in place before they had completed the training program. Horticulture graduates , graduates in the criminal law enforcement program had jobs . There are students now working in bank training programs that have jobs.

So I'm surprised the Member for River Heights would pick the one negative one - and we had publicly admitted it - to highlight the Core Area Training Program. The Core Area Training Program is a very, very successful part of the Core Area Agreement, and no other urban renewal program deals with both the social priorities of retraining and the physical priorit ies of retraining as this core area program has dealt with. Evaluation programs - consideration of long-term jobs MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary to the same Minister .

In the evaluation programs that follow the training period, does the evaluation consider long-term jobs as well as those jobs funded by Jobs Fund and other government agencies? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, it's a little difficult to consider long-term jobs if a training program is only three to four years old, with the greatest of respect. It's obviously the goal to give people skills and abilities to carry on in careers that weren't formerly available to them. I could provide the evaluation program, Madam Speaker, but we are committed.

In fact, we had to fight other representatives from other governments to keep the training program up to $12 million in the second core program, in fact, higher than the first core program . We'll continue that priority , Madam Speaker, because we believe it's sound for the core area to have physical renewal and also the training and social renewal that's so necessary in that area. Manitoba School Tax Assistance Program - details of program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs .

Madam Spea ker, it is now two months since the Budget was introduced for 1987 , wherein the Manitoba School Tax Assistance Program was announced for farmers. I'd like to ask the Minister if he's now prepared to announce the details of that program? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you , Madam Speaker . Discussions have been under way for some time betwee n the Departments of Agricu lture and Municipal Affairs , a nd the Union of Manitoba Municipalities .

Agreement has been reached as to how the monies will be paid out, and I'm sure that my colleague, the Ministe r of Agriculture, who's the lead Minister on this, will be making an announcement in due course. Manitoba School Tax Assistance Program - R.M. councils to administe r MR. G. FINDLAY: I'd like t o ask the Minister if the R.M . councils are being charged the responsibility of administering this program? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK : As I indicated, Madam Speaker, discussions have been held between governmen t departments and the Union of Manitob a Municipalities.

The involvement of the individual municipalities , as far as the delivery of the benefits, will be part of the Minister 's announcement over the delivery of the program . MR. G. FINDLAY: I'm glad that the Minister is now prepared to make that announcement in due course , but will it be in place in time for when farmers pay their 1987 land taxes? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The answer simp ly put is, yes, and probably before that. Consolidated Professor Mines - contamination to Winnipeg water MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of the Environment. I note that a mining company, Consolidated Professo r Mines , is planning to set up a gold mining operation on Stephens and Cameron Island in Shoal Lake, the source of the City of Winnipeg 's water supply. My question to the Minister is: Has his department investigated the proposals to see whether or not there will be any contamination to Winnipeg's water supp ly as a result of this proposed gold mining operat ion? MADAM SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of the Environment . HON. G. LECUYER : Thank you, Madam Speaker. 2102

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 This particular mining operation isn't a mining operation at this point, yet, and I don't know if it will ever be. There is exploratory work that is going on, on one of the islands in that area . It's been part of the discussions, when I referred earlier on a question dealing with the issue of Shoal Lake. It was part of the answer when I said that there are ongoing discussions annually between my department and the equivalent department of Ontario , and there is a Memorandum of Understanding whereby we will meet to discuss issues of mutual concerns that are transboundary of nature .

That is one of the issues that we've discussed with Ontario in past years , includ ing the last time last fall. And, at this point in time, I cannot say, Madam Speaker, whether there will eventually be mining operations and, if there are, they will be as a result of discussions that will have to take place with Manitoba. At this point in time, there's no min ing operation even contemplated or proposed at this point. Exploratory work of course, if it proves successful , will eventually lead to that kind of proposal. Mining operation - contaminants to water supply MR. G.

FILMON: Well, Madam Speaker , given that the company has apparently already invested $12 million in exploration on those islands, there is evidence that they're serious about developing a mining operation . In view of the fact that the by-products of a gold mining operation , and indeed the heavy-industrial activities that would occur as a result of setting up a fullfledged mine, would have the potential to introduce a great many contaminants into the Shoal Lake water supply, what assurances do we have that there is no danger to Winnipeg's water supply as a result of the setting up of a mining operation? HON. G.

LECUYER: Well, Madam Speaker , should there be - and we're talking about Consolidated, I presume , Professor Mines operation. Should there be eventuall y a considerati on of developing a mine there, that then would have to be a proposal, which would have to be studied in terms of the impact. It's not at this stage yet, and perhaps this is one of the issues that may be on the table for consideration the next time we meet with our counterparts in Ontario.

Should that ever be a proposal which is under active consideration, in terms of environmental impact, we would want also the Federal Government to be part of that impact study , as we are talking about transboundary water issues . Consolidated Professor Mines - environmental impact study MR. G. FILMON: Well, Madam Speaker , will the Minister assure that there will be an environmental impact study prior to the approval of any mining operation on these islands by Consolidated Professor in this particular instance? HON. G.

LECUYER: Madam Speaker, it certainly would be our wish that such a study be undertaken, and certainly we would hope that the Province of Ontario would also comply with that wish , and so would the Federal Government. Because, as I said, Madam Speaker , we are talking about a transboundary water issue which does come under the purview of the Federal Government and should be under their responsibility in terms of assessment, with of course our participat ion and that of Ontario. And I hope, Madam Speaker, that if it leads to potential development considerations, indeed there would be that type of assessment. MR. G.

FILMON: The Minister is indicating his hope. Can he give assurances to the people of Winnipeg that there will be an environmental impact assessmen t before any mining operation is allowed to proceed? HON. G. LECUYER: Madam Speake r, all I can say at this poin t in time, even the Province of Ontario, wherein this is taking place, has received no application for start-up operations. They have indicated that they will be prepared to hold hearings .

Of course , that is not the assessment process per se but, should there be a proposal to start up, what I have said is it would be ours to see environmental impact assessment take place . The responsibility for ensuring that it does take place will be the Federal Government's, and that 's where we'll have to make our pressures felt, unless we go into Ontario , carry out our own impact asses sment, which is not the process generally used, Madam Speaker, when it is not our jurisdict ion. Delta Beach - debris from diversion, prevention of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E.

CONNERY: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of National Resources . First of all , Madam Speaker, I must say the Department of Water Resources were very quick and efficient in cleaning up the mess at Delta Beach . But since the diversion has been in place , it's been almost an annual event that there's debris comes down the diversion and the beach at Delta is innundated with debr is, logs and everything else . What is the Minister planning on doing in the future to prevent this sort of recurrence? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , despite our best intentions , I don't know that we in the Department of Natural Resources could ever ensure that debris would not flow to Delta Beach. We will certainly be looking at what the causes are. There's some ind ication from some of the members opposite that perhaps some of the activ ity along the waterways has contributed to that . We will investigate those matters. We did move, as the Member for Portage said, very quickly to clean up the debris , but we cannot ensure that in the future debris will not flow on the waters of that particular waterway. MR. E.

CONNERY: To the same Minister , it's been admitted by an employee of the department that the 2103

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 boom that prevents a lot of debr is going down the diversion is one that breaks , and breaks continuous ly. Can the Minister not ensure us that they can put up some sort of a boom structure that this won 't be recurring every year? HON. L. HARAPIAK: If the member is prepared to give the specific information that he has and if there's some technical shortcoming in the structure that is in place, we'd be quite prepared to review it. Salary of Deputy Attorney-General MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I had taken, along with the Attorney-General, some questions as notice on May 7 with regard to Deputy Ministers' salaries, and I have that information to report to the House . There are three pay levels for Deputy Ministers. Each contain six pay points at each level. A Senior Officer 5, which is $59 ,632 - $71,585; Level 6, which is $61,883 - $74 ,309 , and Level 7 which is $66 ,479 - $80 ,120.00. The last time there was a change in the scale was when there was a general salary increase in October 1986.

The same formula was put in place to those salaries as was the case for the general Civil Service group, which the general increase was on average 4.5 percent. However, the yield for the Senior Officer level was considerably less than that at about the 3 percent range. There was a further question asking for the salary level of the Deputy Attorney-General. That individual is at the maximum rate of the Senior Officer 7, which I already indicated was the scale of $66,479 to $80,210.00. The last change in that salary was the general increase that was given to all within those categories .

Landlord and Tenant Review Report - duties of Tenant and Landlord Adviser MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR. R. NORDMAN: Madam Speaker, through you to the Minister of Housing. Dealing with the Landlord and Tenant Review Report which the Minister advised that we'll be implementing in the near future, Madam Speaker, can the Minister explain what the duties or functions of the Tenant and Landlord Adviser will be? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, in terms of the recommendations from the committee, I believe there are something in the order of 139 recommendat ions that are presently being studied. It's going to take us some time over the summer to look at those recommendations and decide what will, and when they will, be implemented in legislation that we're expecting to take place in the next Session. So it's very difficul t at this poin t to go into details of any one of the recommendations , until we've had a chance to fully consider them . MR. R.

NORDMAN: Madam Speaker, this individual that we're looking at , from what I can understand , probably will act as an advocate. I mean , along with the Minister, we're studying it too , and this is the first opportunity that I've had to ask any questions on it. We just want to know if this person is going to be a lobbyist for the public assuring fairness to both tenant and landlord. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, one of the principles, one of the main principles that was undertaken with the review was to make sure that a system that we had in place, the landlord and tenant existing regulations, which we felt was already a fair process for landlords and tenants, was made even fairer for both sides . In other words, what we were trying to accomplish is that any problems related to either landlords, abuses with landlords, abuses with tenants, were corrected because we want to make sure that those don 't exist and tha t the system is fair to both sides .

So that all of the recommendations that are in place , and a large number of them have consensus by the representatives of the landlords and the representatives of the tenants, the basic principle thereafter is a fair system for both parties , both sides . MR. R. NORDMAN: Madam Speaker, is the Minister indicating at all that the agency is not presently providing proper advice to the public, or is there an indication that there is a lack of faith in any of our employees? HON. M. HEMPHILL: No, Madam Speaker, I don't think it's indicating that at all.

What we do know though is that this is one of the most complex areas where there is a great amount of information that has to be given out , and we want to make sure that the information doesn 't just come to those people who know where to go to get it. There are large numbers of people in our city and in our province who don't know what their rights are, in fact, what their responsibilit ies are, and they don 't know where to go to receive that information.

So we have been examining the system to see where those deficiencies may lie, and what we want to do is improve our ability to get information out to those target groups that we feel presently don 't have access. Highway 352 - maintenance of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker , my quest ion is for the Minister of Highways.

In an ongoing attempt to help him improve the maintenance of the P.R. roads in this province, I would like to ask if he is prepared to personally interv ene in the maintenance on Highway 352, which has three narrow and unsafe crossings on it at this point? 2104

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I'll be pleased to check into that situation . Railings on narrow approaches MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker , I wonder also if the Minister would review the reason why railings were put on very narrow approaches that do not have enough width for gravel trucks and vehicles to pass, rather than spending the same amount of money and replaci ng the structures with large culverts. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker , I can take that as notice , as well.

As I explained during the Estimates, there are certain criteria that are applied when these concrete culverts are used, as opposed to structures, and it may be that in this situation they weren't warranted, but I will check into that. MR. G. CUMMINGS: To the same Minister, culverts were used to replace a fourth structure on this same road.

I would like to ask if the Minister would also review the fact that at least one of these structures is on a nearly bli nd curve which has caused several near accidents, and there is by no means adequate maintenance on this road to service the volume of commercial traffic and the domestic traffic, including many school buses that travel this road? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again , I'll have to take that quest ion as notice . Deputy Attorney-General - last salary increase MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance , and it follows from the answers given a few moments ago, for which I thank him, respecting Deputy Ministers ' salaries in the public service. The Minister did answer several of the questions raised, but I believe there was one that he did not. I would ask him, if he has the information before him, could he tell us when was the last increase in the salary of the Deputy Attorney-General? If it was October of 1986, that's fine, but could he tell us from what figure to the top figure of $80 , 120 that salary increased?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fina nce . HON. E. KOSTYRA: I had already answered that question . The last increase was the general one that went in place for all staff at October 1986 . I don't have the specific figures , but the member can work it out . The increase at that level was part of the overall 4.5 percent increase for all staff , but because of the split manner in which it was put in place , the increase for that level, for that individual, would be 2.94 percent. Deputy Attorney-General - governed by contract between Attorney-General and gov't MR. J.

McCRAE: Is the employment of the Deputy Attorney-General with the Attorney-General 's Department governed by a contract between the Deputy Attorney-General and the government? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -General. HON. R. PENNER: No, Madam Speaker. These of course are questions more appropriate for Estimates but, since they're asked , we'll answer them.

The member may recall and, if not, he might have consulted with the Attorney-General critic sitting just in front of him, that the Deputy Attorney-General came here originally on an executive interchange from Ottawa , which was for a period of two years, prior to that period of time coming, then he opted to stay here and became a regular member of the Civil Service. The Labour Relations Act - opinion from law officers MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, a new question for the Attorney-General.

I would hate to see the Attorney-General taken out of context once more, so I'll ask him another time , and perhaps he can give us a very clear answer about the review of The Manitoba Labour Relations Act. The last time he spoke during this period on this subject, he clarified his previous comments to the effect that an opinion would be made available to honourable members of this House respecting a court challenge to The Manitoba Labour Relations Act with respect to Metropolitan Stores ,

whereas previously he had told us that the whole act was the subject of Charter of Rights scrutiny. Will the Minister please clarify today what he means when he talks about Charter of Rights scrutiny? Is the whole act under scrutiny by the law officers of the Crown? If so, will he please make available to members of this House the legal opinion of the law officers of the Crown respecting the entire Manitoba Labour Relations Act, not just those parts that are the subject of court action.

MADAM SPEAKER: The last part of the honourable member's question referring to advice given to the Crown by law officers, etc ., is not in order. Did the Honourable Member for Brandon West wish to rephrase his question? The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . In fact, it was my intention to indicate to the Member for Brandon West and to all members of the House exactly what happens . All of the statutes of the Province of Manitoba , the public statutes of the Province of Manitoba , are the subject of review for their compliance with the Charter .

Having said that, it is clear that is a monumental task. So, year by year, the law officers of the Crown take 2105

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 certain sections of the Charter , e.g.,

section 8, dealing with search and seizure , and take a group of sta tute s and subject them to an inquiry to make sure that they meet the provision of

section 8 of the Charter with respect to reasonable search and seizure. The members may recall that Manitoba was in the forefront in introducing amendments to our taxation statutes to make sure that Draconian features which were there were rooted out. Then we had a subsequent application of

section 8 to another group of statutes . So in each year we try, either through

section 8 or

section 15, to subject as much as we can, given the resources we have , to scrutiny. We don't take each statute and see whether or not it's in conformity with the Charter . We start with the presumption in law that all our legislation is constitutionally valid; we start with that assumption. It would help the member opposite if he started with that assumption. We don't start with the assumption that it's invalid. We take the resources that we have - here again leading the country in Charter compliance - and w~ do that.

We also had an outside person, Professor Gibson, University of Manitoba, give an initial analysis in 1982, which is available to the member if he cares to look at it. If the member wants to carry out his particular vendetta against Manitoba 's labour laws , let him do it on his own time. MR. J. McCRAE: Before I can assume there was an answer there, Madam Speaker, I'll have to read Hansard .

The other assumption that the Minister asks me to make, I refuse to do, in view of the things that we've been seeing in this province, and the way we've been seeing workers' rights trampled on as a result of the legislation of this government. The Labour Relations Act -

Sec. 6(2) deprives the right of free speech MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. J. McCRAE: I do have a question , Madam Speaker . Will the Minister ask the law officers of the Crown to look specifically at

section 6(2), of The Manitoba Labour Relat ions Act , which deprives the right of free speech to Manitobans? Will he also direct the law officers to review the unfair labour practices penalties

section to discover whether a $3.2 million penalty to an 18-year-old woman is constitutional, No. 1, and moral, No. 2? HON. R. PENNER: The Member for Brandon West is making an assumption as to the outcome of a case which is before the Labour Board, which is an assumption which I would not make and, with respect, he's not entitled to make. If indeed that kind of a judgment were rendered by the Manitoba Labour Board, then it would be subject to the normal processes of judicial review .

No. 1, indeed it's entirely unlikely that the Manitoba Labour Board would give a judgment of that kind because, among other things, there's been assurances from the union in question they're not really looking for that type of penalty. But , you know, this is not the body before which to debate a case which is before a judicial or a quasi-judicial tribunal. This is not the body before which to do that; that is to distort the relationship between the legislative and the judicial arms of government, and it should not be done . No. 2, as the member knows, because he was referred to that

section in an earlier answer, there is a specific

section within The Labour Relations Act guaranteeing freedom of speech. No. 3, our labour laws are the best in the country, bar none , in terms of a fair balance between employers and employees.- (Inter jection)- I'll tell you whose side we're on. We're on the side of the people of Manitoba who , because of our labour laws -(Interjection)- Quiet for a moment - because of our labour laws have had a period of industrial peace , equal to none , and th at is in the best interests of the people of Manitoba , not coming in here with your special brief for the Chamber of Commerce and union-busting employers.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: I'd just like to ask leave to make a non-political statement, Madam Spea ker. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Thompson have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson . MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. This past weekend , Thompson held its first homecoming to mark the 25th Anniversary of R.D. Parker Collegiate . Over the weekend, past and present staff, students, parents and friends of A.O.

Parker attended a number of events to mark the significant anniversary. The weekend provided an excellent opportunity for many of us to renew friendships with former classmates who came to the homecoming from literally across the country. It was also an excellent opportunity, Madam Speaker , to reflect on the significant contribution R.D. Parker Collegiate has made over the past 25 years . I am sure I speak for all members of the Legislature in congratulating the organizers of the homecoming weekend, and wishing A.O. Parker Collegiate all the best on the occasion of its 25th Anniversary .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I'd like to ask leave of the House to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister. 2106

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Last week, Madam Speaker , the Opposition House Leader announced that there was a championship, Canadian National Gymnastic and Trampoline Championship here in Winnipeg and , because of the role that he played, an important role in organizing this and the many volunteers whom I'd like to congratulate, the champ ionship event that terminated last Sunday was very successful.

The Manitoba athletes performed at an exc epti onally high level of achievement throughout the four days, and they certainly deserve the congratulations for the long hours that they spent preparing for this event. I would like to announce some of the winners .

They all did well, but some of those who won medals: Suzanne Villeneuve, winner of two Silver Medals and one Bronze Medal in the Women's Open Category; Lynette Wittme ier, winner of a Bronze Medal in the Women's High Performance Category ; Tom Seniuk, winner of one Gold Medal, one Silve r Medal and two Bronze Medals in the Men 's Tyro Category; Dave Reed , winner of a Gold Medal in the Men 's Novice Trampoline Category; and finally, Bob Bonnefoy, winner of a Silver Meda l and a Bronze Medal in the Men's Junior category.

In addition, the Manitoba Women's Open Team won third place in the nation and they were awarded a Bronze Medal. Madam Speaker, we are very proud of all our athletes . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I also would like leave to make a non-political statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker . In the vein established by my colleague , the Member for Thompson, in congratulating A.O.

Parker on their 25th Anniversary, I would like to announce to the House and to congratulate publicly - and I know that all members will want to join me in congratulating the many parti cipants from Manitoba in the Canada Music competitions which were held recently . This competition is for both stage and concert bands from across Canada , and I am particularly pleased to make known to the House that a tremendous number of participants from Manitoba were successful in this competition . I would like to just outline for the House the highlights in terms of accomplishments.

In the Senior High Stage Band Class , Madam Speaker, Fort Richmond Collegiate won a Gold Medal ; Silver Heights won a Gold; Tech Voe won a Gold , and Tech Voe also received the most outstand ing stage per formance of the festival; Steinbach School Band received a Bronze Medal. The Junior High Stage Band Class, Westdale School received a Gold; Minnetonka, the Silver ; Steinbech, Silver; Warren, Silver. In the Junior High Concert Band class, Isaac Newton received a Gold Medal.

Madam Speaker, I understand that every band that attended the competition was recognized for some special achievement, a phenomenal accomplishment , and I would like to extend congratulations and commendations to the band directors, to the teachers, to the students, to the parents involved in the Schoo l Band Pro gram across Manitob a.

I think the success of our students in this national competition reflects the wide array of programs and experiences that we offer to young people in Manitoba, and thanks to everyone who has made a special effort to make this kind of experience available to young people in Manitoba. Than k you, Madam Speaker . COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN : I'd like to make a political state ment , committee changes, Madam Speaker .

I move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood , that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows : H. Smith for the Honourable W. Parasiuk; the Honourable G. Doer for C. Baker . ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN - NO. 11 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Would you please call the Order for Return , Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson . MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Gladstone THAT an Order of the House do issue for return of the following information: 1.

The date and times that the "Wallace Lake" and "Woodridge" forest fires were detected . 2. The "fire hazard " ratings in those areas on those dates . 3. The number, dates and times of airborne fire detection flights in the Wallace Lake and Woodridge areas since April 1, 1987 . 4. The method by which the fires were detected. 5. Records of lightning strikes in the five-day period immediately prior to detection of these fires. 6. The number of Natural Resources officers (NRO'

s) currently engaged in fire fighting activities at Wallace Lake and Woodridge by region of origin. 7. The number of NRO's currently engaged in firefighting activities in the province . 8. The number of NAO staff days being expended in investigation of the causes of forest fires in Manitoba. 9. The number, date and times of the waterbomber flights for the Wallace Lake and Woodridge fires . 2107

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, we're prepared to accept the Order for Return with the proviso that, right now, the first priority of the department has to be fighting these fires and other fires that are now presently burning in the province, and that they will be working on this as time permits and providing the information to the Member for Emerson when they are able to complete their review of the questions and the answers, after they've dealt with the first priority which is fire fighting .

As well, there are a couple of matters of clarification which are required, and I would suggest that perhaps the Member for Emerson speak to the Minister of Natural Resources to define, particularly, when he suggests that "currently engaged in fire fighting," wha t specific dates he would require in the answer for the Order for Return, but that can be done between the two members. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, on a matter of House Business , just to remind members that today we will be using Monday sitting hours, as was determined last week . There will be Private Members' Hour from five o'clock to six o'clock today. I move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - INDUSTRY, TRADE AND TECHNOLOGY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: The committee will please come to order. The Honourable Minister of Industry , Trade and Technology. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: In the Throne Speech , His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba , pointed out that Manitobans are justly proud of their province 's achievements in job creation and economic development. A favourable business climate in Manitoba is reflected in the fact that our net business form ation rate has been higher than the national average every year since the current government took office in 1981. As well, from the elect ion in November 1981 until January of '87, total employment increased by 8.9 percent as compared to 6.9 percent for all of Canada.

The Conference Board has forecast that Manitoba will have the fastest-growing provincial economy with a 3.5 percent increase in real gross domestic product in 1987. I am pleased that my department has played an important

part in bringing these achievements about. The 1987-88 Estimates allocation of $8,935 ,900 is little changed in amount from the previous year. Once again, we have held the line on spending in keeping with this administration's commitment to responsible and balanced fiscal policy. The allocation will continue to allow a flexible and diversified range of economic development programming. As in years past, the department's overall mission will be to foster steady, stable growth and a diversified economic structure in keeping with the employment, income and human development aspirations of Manitobans.

Members have been supplied with a document containing supplementary information concerning the department and its 1987-88 Estimates. I hope that you will find the document useful. It should relieve me of the necessity to provide ex tensive background information in my remarks and leave more time to focus on the points which may be of the greatest interest to all of us.

In introducing the Estimates for IT and T this year, I would like to take the opportunity to outline some matters which are not readily evident in the material before you, but which are in many ways central to the achievements of this government and my ministry. My ministry is the one principally responsible for regional economic development. This responsibility is not separately identified in the Estimates or on an organizational chart. It is a responsibility which transcends all divisions . In full perspective, it is a responsibility which transcends most of the departments and agencies of government .

Perhaps because of the diffuse and unstructured nature of the responsibility, little has been said in public statements concerning it. This is unfortunate because, when we reflect on what has been done and accomplished, our government is seen to have much to its credit. It has demonstrated considerable leadership and has been decisively constructive in its approach to intergovernmental affairs. I think it's time we said our piece. Now while the notion of regional development seems simple enough, it has in fact proven to be a difficult concept for many in Canada to understand .

Part of the difficulty has to do with semantics. For example, some feel that regional development is the development of resources or the physical and locational attributes of a region. Others feel that it is the income support through transfer payments and the like given to people in various regions to maintain a standard level of purchasing power. Still others feel that regiona l development has to do with the distribution of footloose oppo rtunities in such a way that all Canadians have equa l employment opportunities . Regional development can mean all of these things .

The essence , however , rests in the nature of Canada 2108

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 and the fact that Canada is a federal state. Canada is not a unitary state as is England. The reality of Canada is that it is a country made up of regions. Two governing principles of federalism are: No. 1, that regional differences are to be respected; and No. 2, that regions share in both the gathering and the distribution of national wealth so as to promote the highest possible quality of life - for all. Basic to these principles and the workings of federalism is the concept of fairness. Premier Pawley and my other colleagues have been raising the issue of fairne ss in many forums.

Fairness isn't a notion that we invented. Fairness is an obligat ion of the body politic in Canada. It is manifest in federalism; it is explicit in the Constitution which says that governments must work to reduce regional disparity . When we raise the issue of fairness , we remind others of the condition which must prevail if this country is to work well. Paradoxically , it has been argued by a few that our insistence on fairness has slowed progress or somehow has worked against federalism. I hope to demonstrate in my remarks to follow that the opposite is the case.

I will illustrate as clearly as I can the positive and constructive role which our government and ministry has played in defining the issues, and in support of the two principles of federalism - respect for differences and sharing. Manitobans can take considerable satisfaction in knowing that their province, which is at the centre of Canada , is also central to the development and resolution of major, new Canadian policy initiatives. To provide some recent context , let me take you back to the early part of 1985.

The Federal Government, to its credit , had initiated an intergovernmental consultative process involving Ministers responsible for regional development from all of the Governments of Canada. At this time , Canada did not have a coherent regional development policy . Manitoba conceived a number of principles for guiding regional development and advanced them for consideration at the first meeting of regional Ministers. This formed the basis for agreement amongst all governments on nine principles for guiding regional development.

Manitoba then joined with the Federal Government and two othe r provinces to elaborate on the nine princ iples in a joint intergovernmental position paper which, after many drafting sessions , was subsequently signed by all governments . This was a unique and hist oric happening. For the first time, all governments had before them mutually agreed-on principles for guiding regional development efforts in Canada . Again, it comes as no surprise that fundamental features of the nine principles dealt with respect for regional differences, sharing and fairness.

The major thrust of the regional development activity of this government and my ministry has been to further the constructive and positive application of the nine principles which we worked so hard to develop. Let me turn by way of example to just one of the nine, No. 5, whi ch reads: "All major national policies should be judged , in part, in terms of their regional impact.

And, so far as is possible, those policies should reinforce the goal of fair and balanced regional development." The inte rgovernmental position paper elaborates, in part, on this principle, as follows: "Regional deve lopment must be the concern of every department and agency within both orders of government. When 2109 a department within the Federal Government is developing a national policy, or when a specific program is being proposed to deal with a specific problem in a region of a country, the impact of that policy on all regions should be taken into account.

By considering such impact , national programs can be modified to take into account differing economic circumstances in each province." Regional Development in Action . An outstanding example of how Manitoba was able to have Principle 5 applied is afforded by the recen t development of a nat ional science and technology policy. It is difficult to overestimate the importance of science and technology for regional development. The first draft of the national policy which the provinces saw was completed by the staff of the Ministry of Science and Technology .

To our surprise, the draft policy - almost in defiance of Principle 5 - was devoid of any reference to the regions . Manitoba intervened, and I am pleased to say that Manitoba has had an important impact on the subsequent evolution of this national policy. I think we have been very effective in ensuring that the concerns of Manitobans and the best interests of our province can be served by the policy.

The approaches to science and technology development which have guided the Manitoba Government, which are evident in our policies and are demonstrated by our actions, have been incorporated into the basic principles which are at the heart of the new national policy . Now the national pol icy makes a clear commitment to the equitable sharing in the benefits and opportunities of science and technology among all Canadians . The policy is clear with respect to the commitment to regional, economic and social development for all Canadians.

It is firm in its commitment to adequate measures for adjustment to technological change. I would make the point that, through our efforts, we have not only advanced the interests of Manitoba . We have contributed in a major way to an amended policy which will be good for Canada at large, and for each of our regions . The Two Sides of Regionalism. Let me make it clear that our concern for regionalism is not one-sided . On the one hand, we are insisting that the principles of federalism be observed, that national policies be sensitive to the regions, and that there must be equality of opportunity between regions.

When our Minister of Finance stands up so forcefully on the subject of equalization, he is dealing with an issue which is fundamental to federalism, to regional development and to historic understandings as to how the regions and people of this country should live together. Similarly, when our Minister of Highways goes to such great lengths to ensure that national transportation policy takes due account of regional considerations, he is dealing with an issue that is absolutely vital to regional development.

On the other hand , our vision of Canada tells us that the regions must individually contribute in all ways possible to the national purpose, to the economic and political union of Canada and to the betterment of others . In this way, the quality of life in all regions is enhanced , and Canada becomes considerably greater than the sum of its parts. And we've done this. My colleague , the Minister of Business Development and Tourism, well knows that entrepreneurship and

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 small business is now considered by many to be of fundamental importance, if not of prime importance , to regional economic development. Manitoba was one of the first governments in Canada - if not the first - to develop small business programming in a major way. We led the way, yet we've been generous in sharing our knowledge of this sector and our experience concerning small business initiatives with the other provinces. Similarly , little could concern the regions more than issues affecting the environment.

These issues have enormous yet sometimes unrecognized economic development implications. My colleague , the Minister of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health is exercising a leadership role in Canada in the development of national policies concerning the environment. The benefits of this contribution to national affairs will accrue importantly to all regions, now and in the distant future.

I've given a few of many examples which make the point, often unheard , that Manitoba is contributing substantially to the interest of Canadians in all parts of Canada, at the same time that it serves the interests of its own citizens. I will occasionally return to this theme as I review specific appropriations and sub­ appropriations. First, the Technology Division. The Technology Division in my department provides science and technology advice and carries responsibilities for the delivery of technology-related programs .

In addition to the negotiations that have led to the national science and technology policy which I've just referred to, they have been deeply involved in the development of our own strategy for technological development. As we move into the new fiscal year, our plans are to focus our resources for technical support into areas that will produce tangible results most directly. It will have maximum, immediate impact on technology-based economic development in the province. One of our more challenging undertakings will be to obtain significant benefits for Manitoba from the national space program.

Departmental efforts, through the Technology Division , will emphasize the commercialization of research results and the transfer of technology. We will be building upon the very positive successes that the Technology Division has demonstrated in the operation of the Technology Commercialization Program, known as TCP. TCP, a Jobs Fund initiative, has been very successful since its inception approximately two years ago. The program provides assistance for the start-up of innovative, new firms and for the adaptation and transfer of new technologies to established firms in the province.

The program has attracted attention from a variety of places, both in Canada and abroad, and is becoming well known for its innovative and practical support for new technology-based firms and entrepreneurs. To date, TCP has provided assistance to a total of 49 companies, and has been instrumental in creating or retaining several hundred jobs in Manitoba. Its economic and technological benefits are profound. Recently , in response to increasing interest in the initiative, we've increased staff support for the program. Manitoba Research Council.

MRC is an agency of my department, and is comprised of Manitobans represent ing the indust ry, university, labour and government sectors. Over the years, it has consistently provided sound advice to the Manitoba Government on science and technology matters . It played an important role in developing the province's position on the national science and technology policy referred to earlier. My department provides grant support to MRC through the Technology Division.

This support, $2,917,900 in 1987-88, contributes substantially to the costs of operating two technical centres: the ITC in Winnipeg and the Canadian Food Products Development Centre in Portage la Prairie. In addition, MRC plans to generate $2 . 7 million in contract­ consulting revenue, up from the '86-87 level of $2.5 million. It is expected that contract-consul ting revenues from Manitoba indust ry will increase 40 percent.

Other goals and objectives include developing more effective technology transfer programs for Manitoba industry, increasing cooperation and networking with other research organizations, and developing and implementing an effective industry-driven marketing program. One of the Research Council's principle roles is technology transfer to local industry. During '86-87, the technical centres will respond to about 7,000 inquiries from local industry for technical assistance, ranging from better ways of doing things to the adaptation of advanced manufacturing technologies.

About 25 percent of inquiries come from rural Manitoba. Both ITC and CFDC will be targeting their marketing efforts at specific market segments. lnfoTech. The Information Technology Program has completed its first full year of operation. This industry­ government initiative has received, in its short life , positive reviews , locally and int ernationally, as an effective vehicle to advance the understand ing and use of information technology.

It has two main objectives: to promote the development of an information technology industry; and to promote the understanding of infor mation technologies by business and education sectors. Over the past year, the program was instrumental in establishing the Information Technology Industry Association. It completed business development projects leading to the establishment of 32 high-tech jobs . Over 40 software companies have been provided with marketing support which helped realize over $1.2 million in export sales.

In 1987-88, lnfoTech is expected to imp lement a cost­ recovery program to offset a significant part of its operational costs. lnfoTech has had an impact that goes beyond the borders of Manitoba and which reinforces Mani toba's role as a constructive contributor to the national scene. In our efforts to respond to change s in the structure of the provincial economy and to meet new needs, we are endeavouring to be "good economic citizens" of Canada . The Health Industry Development Initiative , or HIDI. Another good example of this approach is our strategy as contained in HIDI.

During the Throne Speech Debate, I told the House about the solid success we are having in developing jobs for Manitobans in the health sector. The way we are approaching this strategic initiative is not just to meet Manitoba's own parochial interests, 2110

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 but to contribute as well to the state of the health service system in Canada. To this end , we are seeking to do things here that will not take away from other activities in other regions in Canada. We are seeking to do things that will displace imports and build exportable Canadian capabilities and products . There is no way that a modern industrial nation like Canada should be importing 90 percent of the health products that it consumes. We are seeking selectively to do things tha t build on our own special strengths .

In particular , we want to build on our unique technological capabilities and potential. We are seeking to provide products and services that contribute to emerging Canadian health needs with plenty of growth ahead. We are seeking to do things that get "more mileage" out of the high levels of public spending in health care . We are seeking maximum cooperation with the Federal Government and have been working positively and constructively with Federal Ministers and officials over the past two years .

Sometimes, the impression is created that the Federal and Provincial Governments are opponents rather than partners. This is sad in that both levels of government serve the same people . Citizens of Canada , in every region, want to build and improve the human condition in this great country of ours. It is the responsibility of both levels of government to work together to help in achieving these aspirations. This is what we 're attempting wi t h the Health Industry Development Initiative . We're trying to enable Manitobans to make a greater contribution to the national economy and the national well-being.

To this end , we are actively discussing with the Canadian Government ways to implement exciting new init iatives to build in Manitoba a new and vital part of Canada 's health industry . To the extent that we are successful, each level of government and Canadians across Canada will benefit. Industr ial Development . In addition to developing the new, we are continuing with the old , those initiatives which have been working well and providing results which are both substantial and cost effective . Four development agreements were negotiated by the Industry Branch, and financed through the Jobs Fund in '86-87.

This generated $85 million in investment, and created or preserved over 1,000 jobs in Manitoba . Sin ce the inception of the Development Agreement Prog ram, 12 development agreements have been negotiated, generating $122 million in investment and close to 2,000 jobs . The provincial cost is equivalent to $ 4,230 per job . This compares favourably with a similar type of program in Saskatchewan where the cost per job was calculated to be about $7,500.00.

The department's Hong Kong office has produced posit ive results and, as a resul t, the Estimates reflec t a new commitment for three years in expanded space leased from Richardson-Greenshields. Investment from Hong Kong last year totalled $4.5 million and resulted in 100 new jobs from business immigration. The Hong Kong office is currently working on projects entailing $9.4 million in investment and approximately 200 jobs. We are continuing the special initiatives mentioned last year to attract U.S. investment to Manitoba.

The priority areas for industrial development activities are the Cities of Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver and the State of California in general. Special attention is being paid to high-technology and to the health care, transportation, machinery and food-processing sectors. The branch has an important role with respect to existing industry in the province which, in fact, accounts for the largest part of its effort. Considerable attention is given to both the continued well-being and expansion of existing firms.

This often involves the branch in a wide range of issues and opportunities, many of which are difficult to anticipate. In total, including development agreements, the Industry Branch directly assisted in the creation or preservation of over 2,900 jobs and $100 million in capital investment in '86-87 . It expects to surpass this performance in '87-88. Trade . Support for export development continues to be a priority for the department. The Manitoba economy is characterized by a large number of small businesses.

Its immediate market is characterized as a small regional one, remotely located to major markets in Eastern Canada and the Midwest U.S. Exporting is essential to the continued survival and growth of business in this province. The objective of the Trade Branch is the delivery of a cost-effective Export Development Program, comprising group trade show exhibits , missions , seminars and cost-shared assistance to Manitoba exporters . It seeks to motivate and assist companies to secure and expand their markets outside Manitoba.

Plans for '87-88 are to maintain the previous level of promotion activity with some shift in efforts. The agricultural equipment and components sector will continue to play a prominent role in Trade Branch programming. However, recognition has been given to other sectors that have emerged with increasing interest and capabilities to pursue new expanded market horizons in Eastern Canada and the Midwest U.S., for example, building materials, hardware and food products.

Increased emphasis will be given to the promotion of our specialized engineering services and technology capabilities via international development agencies. Canada, the U.S., Europe and Asia are markets where we will continue to be active in support of our diverse manufacturing and service sectors. Efforts will continue to be made to maximize federal trade program support to Manitoba exporters. The Strategic Planning Division in the department has been assigned lead responsibility for coordinating and developing international trade policy within the Manitoba Government.

A key part of this mandate involves research and policy development relating to the current Canada/U.S. bilateral trade negotiations, but this responsibility also includes coordination of issues related to the multilateral trade negotiations and trade irritants between Canada and the U.S. The Strategic Planning Division works in close cooperation with others in pursuing this mandate. The division is also responsible for representing the Government of Manitoba on the Federal-Provincial Continuing Committee on Trade Negotiations.

Our contribution to national as well as regional purpose is evident once again in this forum. Working with other departments , three discussion papers on the Canada-U.S. bilateral negotiations have been prepared and released . These have provided a base for extensive consultations on the trade issue with 2111

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 Manitobans and with many non-governmental groups throughout the province. Over the forthcoming months, especially as more detail on various components of the proposed Canada­ U.S. Trade Agreement come available, we will be continuing this series of consultations.

When and if the current Canada-U .S. trade negot iations draw to a conclusion, and at such time as a draft agreement is produced , we want to ensure that there will be adequate time in the process to allow Manitobans and Canadians the opportunity to understand and fully debate the proposed agreement before the agreement is signed and before Parliament and the provinces are asked to approve its implementation . We will be continuing to press the Federal Government for adequate assurances on this matter .

Our government is firmly of the view that current attempts to secure a trade agreement with the U.S. should not detrac t from our efforts to enhance our economic union within Canada. One absolutely crucial component in sustaining and enhancing that economic union is our constitutional commitment in Canada to balanced regi onal economic development. The Strategic Planning Division has the lead responsibility for working with other provinces on this important area.

Through the Strategic Planning Division, Manitoba has also assumed a leading role in intergovernmental efforts to review and ratio nalize interprovincial trade barriers . Both of these initiatives on regional development programming in Canada and on interprovincial trade barriers are being undertaken as follow-up to the nine regional development principles previously referred to.

I am hopeful that intergovernmental efforts on these two fronts will come to fruition within the next several months and that I will be able to participate with my colleagues in announcing some significant progress to promote regional development and reduce barriers within the Canadian economic union . Overall, the Strategic Planning Division has the challenge of monitoring and stimulating the effective and efficient use of human and financial resources for the purposes of fostering economic development and employment creation in the province.

This includes ongoing efforts to improve project appraisal and program evaluation methods, as well as a review of different economic development instruments and different approaches to economic development. With fiscal constraints expected to continue for the foreseeable future, efforts to increase the cost­ effectiveness of economic development measures will assume even more importance than they have in the past.

In my opening remarks, I sought to inform you as to the constructive relationships which we have forged with other governments across Canada and the contributions we have made to the development of national policy in key areas of economic importance to all Canadians, to all regions. These are undertakings which transcend departments and often escape notice during Estimates review. These are unsettled times. The challenges ahead are great. The resources to meet them with are limited as indicated by this year's Estimates . If we are to do more, we must learn cooperation.

We must learn to do new things and to do the old things better . I trust that you will agree with me that the department's activities and its Estimates for the 1987-88 period appropriately reflect these circumstances. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I could almost read the remarks I made at the opening of these Estimates last year, and following the remarks of the Minister's opening statement, I would suggest that his remarks basically show an indication that he is either trying to cover up or he is trying to detract from the fact that the department that he represents has not been doing the job that they're supposed to do in the Province of Manitoba.

When I use the word "cover-up," I refer to his continued remarks about regional opportunities , regional fairness, what the Federal Government should do , what reports they have presented to other governments to make things happen within Canada. Those are the parts of the department or jobs of the department that have been going on continually for many, many years.

It hasn't really changed all that much and, quite frankly, the attitude of the government that says that we don't seem to be able to do anything in Manitoba on our own unless we have the agreement of the Federal Government and all the other provinces on regional development is, in my mind, an admission of defeat as far as your job is concerned in this province.

I've been heard to say many times that you know we're in Manitoba, we 're not in Ontario or Saskatchewan or any other province - I guess I have to admit that I go overboard on that - and we do know that we have to work with other provinces and we work within Canada. But I can tell you that, if we don't work within ourselves to do the best for Manitoba without having to rely or bank or use as an excuse that the regional development policy of the Federal Government isn't right and the regional development policies of all the other provinces aren't right, is something that is not a good situation for this province.

I take a look at this piece of paper that dates back a long time. It says we're interest ed in the electronics industry; we drew little circles as a matter of fact. It was regarded as a program that the province would be involved in: food products, health care products , machinery, aerospace, transportat ion. Those policies obviously haven 't changed, but the the thing that has changed is that we are going backwards in Manitoba as far as manufacturing investment is concerned and manufacturing jobs are concerned.

As I said last year, and I have it in front of me, and I've said it in previous years, the basis of the economy of the province is to have the resource jobs that the Minister refers to in his statement, and he says some believe it should be accepted . It also means that we have to find the places that the industries are suitably located for Manitoba.

I refer to the Minister of Finance's statement last year in these Estimates, when we were discussing them, and he said, "The view expressed to me was that we'd probably get the bigger bang out of our buck working on geographical basis and looking not on the basis 2112

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 necessarily of individual sectors, or industrial sectors, but looking at any industry that migh t be of significant benefit to itself of settling here, which could, at the same time, pro vid e us with the benefits that we are looking for." I kind of like that statement when we take a look at the fact that we are looking for any industry that will come here. We cer tai nly hope that they will be geographically beneficial to them. Well , that's really motherhood. They won 't come if it's not.

We do have a situation where we are in the centre of the country and we have to ship long distance s to our markets, and those things have to be considered; but the manufacturing sector of this province, the jobs of manufacturing have declined steadily since 1981, fluctuated, but declined. In May of 1982, we had 66,000 people working in the manufacturing industry in the Province of Manitoba, and today we have 55,000 people working in the manufacturing industry as of the end of March 1987 - pardon me, March 1986 . Those are Statistics Canada - oh, pardon me again , Mr. Chairman, it is March 1987.

So we have a steady decline in the manufacturing industry, and it's right here again - I'm repeating myself again - this is the job of th is department, and all I hear is that we are doing studies. We are working with the strategy of the regio ns, with regions and other provinces in Canada, which has been going on for many years , but at the sam e time I see a decrease in the manufacturing jobs in the Province of Manitoba. I have a list of the companies that have either closed in Manitoba or laid off many many people and it's rather depressing in the particu lar industries that are of benefit to this provin ce.

You know, Mr. Chairman , if you don 't have your manufacturing base, which is the support of your small business whi ch is the reason for insurance agents and grocery stores and what-have-you that is the base of you r economy, you will only have an economy which this governm ent has created. They are the manufacturer ; the y are the public money which is in Limestone , Jobs Fund, Core Area. The investment in this province as far as housing is concerned is strictly related to the interest rates that the Federal Government have been providing.

So this governme nt becomes the manufacturer or the spender of the money and manufactures the money by taxing the people of this province and taxing the industry of this province, and they expect to have people come here and invest. The Minister said, well, the 3 percent does not have any effect in Quebec, their payroll tax . You want to compare us with Quebec , that 's on a seaboard, with their population, etc.? You want to compare us to Quebec when Man itoba has to bring its resources from the north down south and ship them both ways?

You see, the comparisons that the Minister conveniently uses and his colleagues conven iently use are ones that they seem to think people will buy, but anybody with any common sense realizes that they're not valid for this province. So we end up with a socialist state, close to a lot of other things that I could mention, that is without any doubt the government providing the manufacturing base by taxing the people . And you know , I once had a member of the government say to me: What are you bawling me out for? That's what we want to do; that's our policy ; that's the socialist way of doing things .

We don 't necessarily want the great big industries that will create problems for us; we'll be the big industry. And that's what's happening in th is province. The Min ister of Industry and, I know, the Minister of Finance was quite happy with the Royal Bank report. He shouldn't be . He thought there was something good in the Investment Dealers' Report . There wasn 't. He mentions the Conference Board results, but certainly this was written before the Conference Board came out last week: " Growth predicted for Manitoba has dro pped drastically ," by the Conference Board.

This must have been written before that reassessment of Manitoba was done. We have the Royal Bank saying, in my opinion, you're going to hit a brick wall. Tell me what is being done in this province to make sure that , when the public money is all spent or starts to go down, what is going to happen in this province? Are you going to replace it with public money that you haven 't got? The debt of the province is so high righ t now it's unreasonable . Are you going to build more power stations with no place to sell power? It probably won 't happen or can't happen or shouldn't happen .

So where are we going when we hit the brick wall? When the investment dealers say that the economy is strictly buoyant because of government spending - which is the government taxing people to get the money to do so - and borrowing money and putting our young people in debt and having every baby who's born in this province, either now or one minute fro m now or one year from now , $9,000 or better in debt when they're born. Is that the way we're going to operate this province? That's the way we're operating it. Where are we going to go when the public spending is no longer there?

And that 's what your investment dealers are saying to you ; that's what they 're saying, your debt is too high, get it down . You had the biggest tax grab in history and you 've only lowered the debt by about $70 million. Does that really attract business when they say we're coming to Manitoba to pay off this big debt? Does anybody in their right mind believe that business says that I'm going to invest large amounts - and I repeat , large amounts because that's where the payroll tax really hits - a large amount in a province that has a 2.25 payroll tax and the one next door doesn't? That's on the west side.

On the east side, they have the other taxes but they have also a booming economy where they can have a return . What's Manitoba 's booming economy? Government spending, and that is all that we have . The Minister , and the Minister of Finance is here at the present time , just sit casually by saying, everything is wonderful. I think there's a song, "Everything is Beautiful." They must be walking down some melody lane, thinking that everything will come together while they sit and do nothing with their philosophy.

I haven't seen anything come out of the Strategic Planning Department in this government for three years, and I don 't see it coming much further. As a matter of fact, I can refer backwards and forwards as to what the Strategic Plann ing Department does versus the department that goes out and tries to get business . I wonder why the Strategic Planning Department is there when the attitude is, we'll take whatever we can get, which I quoted from in the previous Estimates. 2113

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 We have the technology-transfer business. Where is it? I don't see an awful lot of it. Of course we just have the Minister of Finance, I believe - maybe they've got a joke among themselves, but it's no joke out there with the people of Manitoba. It's no joke that they're getting taxed the way they are to pay for the government to go into spending to create jobs . We have some commitments here on jobs. There' s one here especially . I hope I can find it, $100 million worth of investment, I believe it said. I will tell you, I want to know how much of that is federal money. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: You caught us red-handed. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, maybe I have and maybe I haven't - and the Minister is now being a smart alee again - but I could really ask that question . But the thing is that most of the incentives that are being done and, I might say, will be done in the next six months, will probably have been initiated by the Federal Government and you'd be requested to work on it. I'll be quite glad to sit around six months from now and have that discussion with you , and I think you'll find that I'm probably right.

Technology, the Research Centre that we have spoken of before, I know there are five in the re now, possibly six. I believe that it will be full by the end of the year, or there'll be 20 or so that will be there. Strangely enough, the Minister last year or the previous Minister said the Technology Centre that's over on Lagimodiere Boulevard was going to move in. I wonder if that's happened , or is it going to happen?

Are we going to have a very fine technology centre in the Province of Manitoba with the Canadian National Research Group and we are not going to be involved with them, especially if we've been invited to be? Here again, we have this government talking about cooperation all the time but, unless it's their way - or let me say this. If the Federal Government policies happen to change slightly, there is no ability whatsoever of this government to be able to adjust to work with anybody .

Their favourite saying is, well back 15 years ago , so and so wrote this agreement or somebody said this five years ago or somebody sent a telegram , which means they haven 't got the ability to adjust. They haven't got the ability to put Manitoba into the mainstream with the rest of the country, because they don't know how to adjust with the rest of the country. They just sit and complain all the time that something has changed . So, Mr. Chairman, these Estimates are there. As I said last year, it's a very small department now.

The department being this small, you would think the Minister would have policies coming out our ears to advance this province to where it should be. Instead, we have high taxes, which are agreed to by this Minister without any complaint. We have labour legislation that he thinks is marvellous that is causing problems in the province . We have a Minister who put the first

section of the payroll tax in, 1.5, and defends greatly the increase in it. Really, I don't know we can go forward but I can understand how, because of this, manufacturing goes down, employment goes down. I can understand how investment in this province has started to drop , and I can understand how the Investment Dealers ' Association says that , because of the attitude of this government, we 're running into trouble. I can understand why the Royal Bank says that , because of the attitude of this government and the policies of the government, in the future it will run into trouble.

I can understand why the Conference Board has revised their estimates of the Province of Manitoba because of the policies of this government. The people of Manitoba are the only ones who are going to suffer because, as I said , this government does the manufacturing, is the big one in the province , is the big investor, and where do they get their money? By taxing the people of Manitoba. Isn't that marvellous? You don't have to go out and compete . You don't have to say, I'm going to be the same price, which you're always proud to say that you're better than anybody else.

You don't have to show that you can do a good job in order to get money. You just sit on your thrones because you're the government, and pass legislation to get your money from the people of Manitoba, continually putting them in debt and continually having policies that are such that will not advance this proud province. Isn't that sweet that you can sit there and do that without going into a market to compete with anybody or anything? You just sit there and tax the people . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, I had hoped we would be able to stay in the realm of fact rather than fantasy with these Estimates. I started off with an overview that was kind and gentle and based on an overview of what the department is doing, but clearly the critic insists on going back and into his gloom and doom mode, into the notion that somehow everything is wrong in this province and in this economy, that we're doing nothing, that we're sitt ing back, we're waiting for somebody to do things for us, when in fact all of the evidence is that it was his government , when he was in office, that things didn 't work.

It was when he was in office that we had just a mass exodus of Manitobans, people voting with their feet . It was when he was in office that we had fewer people left after his term than before they started. That's not the case now. We have an increase in population, a healthy increase of somewhere in the range of 50,000 people in Manitoba since we took office, as opposed to a decrease during the period when they were in office . We have an increase in employment. One looks around - and he's been mentioning other provinces . British Columbia in 1981 had a workforce of 1.27 million .

In 1986, they 're up to 1.274 million , 4,000 more people on 1.2 million. How about Manitoba? From 461,000, we've moved to 493,000 for 1986 full year, tremendous difference between us and B.C. or Alberta. Take us from when the Saskatch ewan Government changed in 1982. They had 426,000 people; they're up to 457,000 . We were at 454,000, moved to 493,000, again a much larger increase in people , in the workforce , in people employed and so on . And yet, if one were to listen to this Opposition critic, it sounds as though nothing has happened here.

It sounds as though everything is wonderful elsewhere, and he refers to Saskatchewan as a province without 2114

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 tax , without the health and education levy and then he talks about us increasing debt, when he knows full well that the deficit for last year in Saskatchewan on a per capita basis was more than three times the deficit in Manitoba . He makes no reference to that fact, makes no reference to the fact that somehow that is going to have to be put back into perspective in Saskatchewan, doesn't want to talk about that.

He and others in his party suggest that every set of Estimates including this one , although he didn't say so directly, somehow we're not spending enough on this particular department . There should be more here. There should be more for social services , more for health, more for highways , more for agriculture. Every depa rtment should have more money , but we should eliminate the health and education levy. Are they saying tax alcohol more? No. This member has been saying we're taxing it too much . Tobacco? Well, he hasn't said one way or another. Income tax? I think he's been saying that maybe we're too high.

It seems to me that it is time that the Opposition would show the people of Manitoba an alternative Budget, complete, so we know what kind of a deficit they would have, so we know where they would put their money , so we would know where the taxes are, where the economic development money is and so on , instead of at every instance being the party party , the party that just has a wonderful time saying , we'll spend more and we'll tax less and we'll have a lower deficit .

Every single set of Estimates we go through, we hear the same song and dance , the same ignoring of what's happening in the province, the same always looking for a particular statistic that may be down at a particular time . It's true that investment and manu fact uring , we're hoping to strengthen that but it is also true that, as I pointed out, total employment in the province is stronger than it is in most other provinces.

It is also true that the - and the member is co rrect when he says that I was referri ng to a previous Confe rence Board Report and should have had my remarks updated, and I apologize for that. But on the other hand, having said that, that same forecasting body is saying we're going to do better than anybody except for Quebec and Ontario, except for the two provinces that are getting the money, getting the investment from the Federal Government which he so conveniently ignores, getting a complete change , and we're hoping to change that. I believe that we will change that.

Over the next year, I believe that we will see more regional development expenditures in Manitoba, but we haven 't had our fair shares in the recent past. Under the Libe rals, we were told it was bad and, under the Conservatives, procurement dropped even more in the province as a proportion of national procurement. It's not because we weren 't competitive . It's not because of some tax or other. It's because sometimes we were ignored because of political considerations, and the membe r well knows that.

He well knows that the Conservatives - and he makes reference to we're not supposed to talk about the Federal Governmen t. Yet, when the Conservatives were in Oppos iti on in Ottawa, they were onside with us when it came to a cut in equalization, when it came to a cut in the program for health and education. And yet , we're not supposed to talk about those kinds of things. He says, somehow our labour legislation is bad.

Well, quite frankly, I'm quite proud of our labour legislation 2115 which ·has provided us with the best labour-rela tio ns record in this country of any really in dustrialized province, the best bar none over the period of our term in office. Wh at is there to be ashamed of with that kind of a record? So, Mr. Chairman, one would hope that we could start talking about the strong future Manitoba will have instead of niggling over minor areas whe re they can possibly find something wrong. The member refers to a list he has of closings.

Maybe he should start referring to a list of openings , and he should start thinking about all those companies that have opened . They don't get the same kind of press as a closing. We had two or three weeks of report ing on what would have affe cted 75 workers at the sugar plant and would have affected a part of the incomes of a number of farmers who could have gone to other crops with some of the best agricultural land in the province , week after week of reporting on that. We had one story in the business

section of the Free Press - and at least we appreciate they had that one sto ry - on an announcement of a new operation which hopes to have up to 300 people work ing there in a high-technology, health-related area by 1990, 300 people and basically nothing in terms of press in this province and nothing in terms of Opposition questions in the Legislature following that kind of an announcement. But there are all kinds of those kinds of positive things that the member totally ignores, and he knows they're there because he knows employment growth is there. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Minister, do you have some staff that you want to introduce and bring up? We'll be starting with Administration and Finance, Executive Support: l.(a)

(1) Salaries - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. 1.(a)(2), I guess, as the Minister 's Salary should be included in the first bunch, 1.(b)(I). MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman , on the Supplementary Information that was so kindly provided to us, it says it ". . . provides planning support, policy development, project appraisal and related economic services to the department . . . provides professional support to ensure that departmental policies and programs are made known to investors and clients ." Mr.

Chairman , on that particular basis , although I can't answer the Minister after the ministerial statements , under this particular section, it obviously is the executive it says right here that is involved with the policies and the direction of the department generally . The Minister carries on about the fact that he never gets any compliments about the numbers of places that have opened up. I was rather proud to continually publish publicly the lists of places that were opened up during our term of office. He talks about how the people left this province during our term of office .

Well, maybe , I should read this just briefly into the record . It's from Don Vernon , who was the Deputy to Mr. Leonard Evans in 1977. He said : " Please find attached two Task Force reports prepared at my request by the staff of the department . The first report entitled 'Manitoba's Manufacturing Sector, Past , Present, Future Trends' ,

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 indicating the following" - I read this into the record, Mr. Chairman, because I'm talking about manufacturi ng a lot of the time . "The rate of growth and manufacturing employment over the 15 years has been approximately 1.8 percent annually . Increased employment in manufacturing during 1970 through 1974 averaged 1,400 additiona l jobs per year. During 1975, there was no increase and, during 1976 there was a decrease of 1,300 jobs in the manufacturing sector.

Had the 1970-74 trend continued, the number of jobs in the manufacturing sector would have increased by 2,800 during 1975 and '76, instead because of no growth in '75 and a decline of 1,300 job s in '76, the manufacturing sector theoretically lost 4,10 0 jobs. "A recent study which is presently in the hands of the Red Secretariat" - can you imagine that? - "established that a job in manufacturing was worth $27,000 per year to the provincial economy, hence a decline of 4,100 jobs as a cost to the economy of $110 million per year over 1.5 GPP.

The rate of growth in manufacturing investment dur ing the period of '52 to '72 has been approximately 4.3; the rate of capital investment fell by 25 percent between '75 and '76. Following a 27 percent decline between 1974 and '75 the annual investment needs of 1976 amounted to $180 million. The actual investment intentions for '76 amounted to $61 million, hence a shortfall of $119 million existed in '76. Prospects for '77 are not any better than the past three years ." Yes, we took over from a mess and we started to move it upwards .

I know all the statistics that were brought forward said that Manitoba was behind the rest or running last. But you know, when we were running last, we were moving up from this mess we were in. So, Mr. Chairman, I'll be very happy if the Minister would be glad to publish a little brochure like that telling us what's happened and how many investments we have . We'll see if it comes up to what's in this brochure here. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, I think to be fair the member ought to consider the considerable changes that have taken place in our manufacturing sector, not only in Manitoba but across the Western World over the last decade. As we increase employment, very often those increases don't show up in the traditional manufacturing sector . Just a couple of examples that would come to mind is our, say, ABI technology. That doesn't show up in manufacturing, or Comcheq, software services , it doesn't show up in manufacturing - very important jobs - exporting services outside of the province.

Great-West Life had some significant increases in employment since 1981. It doesn't show up either in manufacturing or in our export numbers. So that sometimes some of those things, in terms of what we export , they simply don't show up. Those are just a few small examples of what's been taking place, and forget about even talking about the overall change in the structure with services increasing in emphas is and so on. There's just a whole host of jobs that are out there, that are just not seen as part of manufacturing, are not counted as part of manufacturing for the purpose of the numbers .

That's why I emphasize that you 're probably far better off looking at the overall numbers, as opposed to picking one particular area and saying, well because this area, the traditional smokestacks aren't doing as well - as the member knows, they 're not doing as well in any part of Western Canada. They've been down , and one of the reasons that we all know about is the fact that our largest manufacturing sector was agricultural machinery.

If there's one area where we have an awful problem - we had , what, 1,700 people working at Versatile a few years ago , at the top of the cycle; we've got maybe 100 or 200 people back there now. That's not because of Manitoba. Nobody else is producing more tractors. What we're having is simply a problem in that indust ry. You can go through one after another of the farm implement operations, and we're down . We're down considerably in what we're producing, not because Manitoba farmers aren't buying because they're a very, very small portion of the market, but because North American farmers aren't buying. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, let's take the numbers out of one and put them in other, and maybe when we take them out it will go down. He wants to take a look at the overall figures, that's all very fine. He mentions the manufacturing, he mentions the farm machinery. The Investment Dealers ' Report, strangely enough or not strangely enough, said the exporting in farm machinery will be up in Manitoba in the next year, and the employment will certainly be up in it, but for only one reason , because the Federal Government saved Versatile, not the Provincial Government.

That's why you will have a favourable situation there. We talked about the taxing and the costs of operation when people have to come to Manitoba, or companies come to Manitoba. The Minister makes a big thing about the fact that we don't talk, and that we're always saying increase spending. But if he reads Hansard closer, he knows that's wrong and that's one of the government's little games that they're playing . Every time somebody mentions something, they say, well ii you want more, where will the money come from and this type of thing.

What does an investor say when he looks at a province that had a Civi l Service employment, according to Stats Canada, of 14,371 in December of'81 and, in June '86 - Heavens knows what it could be now! - it's 20,558. He has to pay taxes to support an increase of civil servants by 2,000 per year, in this economy in a province of a million? Mr. Chairman, the Minister wants to dwell on figures and what-have-you. We have many figures available to us, too.

But the point is that the large investor coming to the Province of Manitoba is now in the posit ion of having a cost that you can't justify compared to other provinces . If you want to compare to other provinces, go ahead. But he can't justify compared to other provinces because they 're going to other provinces.

The one that's associated with the aerospace parts, they're going probably to Nova Scotia where Pratt­ Whitney went, I think they're associated - the companies - United or something , will not be coming here, and we need some very large investors to replace the only large investor there is in this province at the present time, and that's the government. 2116

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 Have you really thought about when $70 million a month in this province dries up? You're at the top of your spending on the Hydro right now at approximately $70 million a month. Do any of you realize whaf $70 million a month means to this province and what you will do when it's gone? I really have trouble with the policy makers of this , and the Minister can say that I'm not going about these Estimates in a nice way, if he wants to infer that.

If he wants to infer and he says we are trying to present to you and working very hard, that there is something beneficial coming to the province, or we ' re going to be doing something beneficial for the province. I think that we would have been presented in this presentation - a real glowing presentation - of saying this is what's happening, this is what's coming, this is what we're negotiating, look what we've done , and you'd be putting your hands up and bragging about it, but you don 't have anything to present to us. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Now, Mr.

Chairman , I'm not going to respond to all of it, but you mention Versatile, and you mentioned the fact that we're going to have an increase in sales of agricultural implements - exports, yes - and you , of course, conveniently forget the background to the Versatile sale, which is that the U.S.

Government, that wonderful free-enterprise group that says so much about free trade and free investment , stopped the sale of Versatile in June of 1986 from Versatile to John Deere, stopped it dead cold , just like they did a few months ago with Fairchild Computer to a Japanese company , dead cold, because of their own interests. And. of course , when things come the other way, we're supposed to be completely open and let anything happen , anything whatsoever.

Of course, we weren 't able, as a Federal Government, as a country to counter that , and the Federal Government came along and assisted another company, who I think will be good corporate citizens. Staff has met on a number of occasions with them during negotiations , and I've met with them after . There will be continuing meetings with Ford-New Holland. We expect that their procurement policies will be such as to be basically quite pleasing for Manitoba and so on.

But the member refers to some notion - I keep hear ing this from the Opposition - that somehow we should have put a pile of money up for this particula r set of negotiations . Somehow they're preening themselves and they 're saying this is so wonderful and it has nothing to do with the Government of Manitoba and it was only because of the Government of Canada that Ford-New Holland is in Manitoba. Now you know that's not accurate . If you followed those negotiations at all you 'd know , first of all, tha t my department was involved intimately until the last several weeks of that negotiation .

If you got any information on it at all, you know as well that we had previously offered, if it was nece ssary, some funds for that purchase , or for the purchase of Versatile, if we could be assured that was what was the difference between having a deal and not having a deal. Why else would you put up money? I ask why else would you put up money? Because after the deal was consummat ed - and this is in no way a criticism of Ford-New Holland - they pointed out that they probably 2117 would have bought the place whether the Federal Government was in or not. But they 're not stupid.

They're a good corporation , and they 've been offered some money and they took it. But that wasn ' t necessarily what made that deal tick. Now the Federal Government, I think far more importantly, was involved in encouraging them to come here, and the Provincial Government was involved with that as well. I don't believe, personally, that it was so much the money as the fact that they were out there working very hard to bring them in, and that's exactly what the president of Ford-New Holland said after the deal was closed. So I don't think that's a terribly strong point for the members of the Opposition.

But if you want some specific new investments , SherrGold , as an example, at Fox Lake, a new gold mine, $30 million investment , 160 jobs; Behlen Industries over in Brandon , an expansion and modernization of a polyethylene pipe operation for 20 jobs; Portage Place in Winnipeg, a retail shopping mall, $72 million. Of course , as the member knows there's federal-provincial-municipal money in getting the thing going .

North American Lumber in Selkirk have a new office buildin g; ABI Bio- Technology in Winnipeg here, genet ic-engineered products, $3 million, 20 jobs; the Bucyrus Blades of Canada in Steinbach, a new operation, scrap er blades and parts for 17 jobs and $1 million; Span Cable Products, hospital-patient monitoring, $180,000 and four jobs in that. I believe that's the company that was involved with Chemfets. No, I'm sorry, it wasn't. That's an individual one .

Carte Electric, Winnipeg , an expansion, 20 jobs, over $5 million expansion; the New Flyer Industries which saved 250 jobs ; Bonar Rosedale Western, Winnipeg, plastic products , an expansion, 23 new jobs; Burroughs Canada, the modernization and the hospital information systems in the range of 400 jobs plus the 50 jobs , which will be coming to Winnipeg with their centre for software development for the health care systems; Westfield Industries in Rosenort, not many jobs, but 10 for that place is a nice one, grain augers; Western Glove Works in Winnipeg , garments, over $7 million, 226 jobs; Manitoba Rolling Mills in Selkirk , 125 jobs, an $18-million expansion; Simon-Day, an expansion, grain cleaning equipment , over $5 million, 45 jobs; Daco Labs in Portage, feed pre-mix for seven jobs; Palliser Furniture , an expansion on their furniture operations, over $14 million, about 400 jobs ; Ecolaire Canada at The Pas, custom-engineered products, $2 million and 80 jobs; the I.D.

Group in Winn ipeg with their new head office and 20 jobs; Westman Steel Industries in Winnipeg, an expansion of steel-building components, $2 million , 20 jobs; Melrose Coffee, 30 jobs, $3-million head office, plant and distribution centre; Pioneer Metals, another gold mine, $30 million, 113 jobs; Guertin Brothers in Winnipeg, an expansion of coatings and sealants, over $3 million, 71 jobs; Park City Products Ltd., a smaller expansion for their pet foods , $133,000 and four jobs; Triman Industries out at Morden, cabinets for $1 million and some six jobs; Prosperity Knitwear, an expansion on a plant that we brought here from Hong Kong - they produce sweaters - a $3 million expansion, 20 new jobs, in addition to the jobs that were already there.

One can go on; there are a number of other examples . The example of Chemfet on Friday is one, again a very

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 encouraging new res ponse to our Health Industr y Development Initiative . Also, as they said at the opening , they were very encouraged by the words of the Federal Minister of Health who had suggested that he was going to do whatever he could to ensure that the Centre for Disease Control for Canada comes to Winnipeg . And on that , the American centre is not sort of in the heart of all the population . It was centred out at Atlanta, Georgia. There's no good reason why it couldn't be in Winnipeg .

There have been a lot of discussions ind icating that we don't need a lot of expansion in the capital area of the country. It's time that we put action to our words with respect to regional economic development. We are moving ahead with that health industry thrust , and this is certainly an area where the Federal Government , without a cost to them because they 've already budgeted the $93 million for that new operation, could greatly enhance our Health Industry Initiative. Certainly , we're encouraging Mr. Epp and members of the Federal Government to go ahead with that and make the announcement soon . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY: Once again , in the Auditor 's Report, Mr. Chairman , he says: " ... but little progress was achieved with the department in their joint administration with Business Development and Tourism ." There was supposed to be a plan of action imp lemented by April 1986, but it wasn 't again. What has been achieved for 1987? Are we going to see the same thing in the Auditor's Report in 1987? HON. V. SCHROEDER: That's a good question. I guess it's true to say that we were having problems last year.

There have been several changes which have taken place within the branch . It had become apparent that there was no dist inct delegation of duties with respect to the branch's unique situation in reporting to the two line departments being , as the member knows, IT and T, and BD and T. Second, voucher processing seemed to be a problem which made it impossible to clear the branch of a backlog of vouchers in process . Thirdly , the financial reporting system to the Department of Finance with respect to cash flow statements, estimates and final estimates was less than adequate .

Fourth, the personnel function was essentially being ignored. The only areas being addressed were situations of crisis , and so there were several full-branch meetings and a number of smaller ones , and there were discussions with the Department of Finance and with the Provincial Auditor's Office , and a new branch organizational chart was drawn up. Some areas are now working well; some will need some additional fine tuning in the new year in order to facilitate a better flow of information.

We had an individual become responsible for all IT and T reporting to the Department of Finance, and we had another person become responsible for the reporting from Business Development and Tourism to the Department of Finance. On the voucher issue, we added a second voucher­ processing person and we found we were catching up with the backlog . I n fact , we're now caught up and appear to be in control of that issue. Financial reporting, on that issue, we've had many discussions with Treasury Board staff - and when I say " we," I'm referring to the staff of our department with the staff of Department of Finance.

Slowly, it appears that the quality of the work submitted is rounding into shape and, in most cases , on time . We, in fact, have been receiving favourable comments with respect to submissions as of late . I'm told that this is the firs t year in sever al where final estimates were actually prepared .

As openings become available, we've been arranging for Finance and Administration superv isory staff to attend the orientation sessions of the Financial and Management Systems Branch , Department of Finance, relat ive to the publication, "Management Practices Guide ." The personnel function was addressed , and a secondment of a very senio r staff member of the Civil Service Commission was arranged to join our branch as Director of Personnel in February.

Unfortunately , just when this important function appeared to be in good hands and many old, outstanding issues resolved, our seconded Director of Personnel decided to retire early during May of 1987. This was a serious setback to our long-range plans but , nevertheless, we're looking at alternatives. We've requested a replacement secondment from the Civil Service Commission. At this time, it does not appear that they will be able to provide one . If they can't, we'll probably have to bulletin the position. Since October of '86, we've also had to replace both our payroll employees.

In discussions with the Department of Finance , we discovered that our new employees were still not performing at an acceptable level. That seems to be com ing along as well, and one can understand that these things take some time with new employment. We've still not engaged an internal auditor, although we've had discussions with the Provincial Auditor 's Office in connection with this subject. We believe we need some time to put the branch in shape before that is formally set up.

We anticipate expanding on several internal audit examinations in the future in conjunction with the Prov incial Auditor's office , and eventually we'll fill the position . In conclusion , it's the view of our department that we've gained some ground in some of the areas and believe , with a concentrated team approach, we'll be able to report that we've rectified many more problem areas. MR. E. CONNERY: The Minister mentioned earlier about the sugar beets and that they could grow some other crop . Obviously , the Minister doesn 't really understand agriculture too well but, Mr.

Chairman , you do, because there isn't any other crop that these people can grow at this point that is going to give them the income that they have. Because of this Minist er who influenced the Minister of Agriculture and the First Minister, the sugar beet growers are already three weeks late in planting and, with the dry weather, we don 't know how long it's going to take for them to germinate. The Minister should know that already the farmers have lost more this year than the total subsidy that 2118

Tuesday, 19 May, 1987 they're going to be putting out in the total of the extra, over and above the $300 ,000.00. So the Minister makes really irresponsible statements when he says that there 's an alternative for that productive land , 28,000 of some of the best land in Manitoba. But, Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister , he mentioned the number of people leaving Manitoba or coming into Manitoba . What were the figures for 1986 and '87, the net migration figures? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'll take that question as notice. I can probably do that in question period some day.

But I can clearly tell the member that, at the end of each of those years, there were more people in Manit oba than at the beginning of those years, not like under the Tory years when, in addition to migration, there were in total, after births, deaths and migration, fewer people in Manitoba under the Tory years . When he refers to the sugar beet farmers and any delays that were caused, let me say first of all that I proba bly know as much about sugar beets as the member does. I grew up on a sugar beet farm.

I know that on every acre on any sugar beet farm in this province, practically every crop could be grown that could be grown on any other farm in this province. To suggest that - and the Member for Sturgeon Creek first raised the issue obliquely when he referred to a telegram. That telegram was w