VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 18, 1981 ·- NO. 6.:3

June 18,1981 Tape No. 2601 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please: ah-1 I would like hon. members to join me in welcoming to the gallery today, the Speaker's gallery the Hon.Hugh Planche, who is the Minister of Economic Development for the province of Alberta. Welcome. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ OPAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I yield to my colleague. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier in the absence of the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). Mr. Speaker, according to the Indian Band Council of Davis Inlet a near crisis has developed in that small town. Could the Premier advise the hon. House if it is true what the Chief of the Indian Band Council has said in a telegram that was sent iP to him and an official of his government this morning? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am aware that there is a problem right there now and we are looking into it as a result of the telegram.

The Minister of Rural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) mentioned it to me a couple of days ago that there seems to be a oroblem. Is tie bon. member talking about the Davis Inlet situation? Because there are a number of situations ongoing. MR. WARREN: Yes. PREMIER PFCKFORD: If you are talking about the 6978 ~

- -·- ·'- June 18,1981 Tape No. 2601 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Davis Inlet situation, I think, it is over funding and it is over the use of funding. Apparently the Band Council has somebody hired up there suppose to be looking after their funds. I do not know who the person is, but I think they have somebody hired. I heard - I do not know, this might be just a rumour - I heard that the perpon is getting paid $40,000 or some strange figure to look after funds for the Davis Inlet council or Band Council. We have had some problems. in the administration of that fund and I think that is the reason for it.

Now the exact, specific details will have to wait until I check with the minister,but in pursuing it in the last couple of days 1arnongst other things that I pursued I did find out that there were some problems there with the administration of the funding and that the department was in fact in consultation with the Band Council to try to resolve the problem that they have. So hopefully over the next day or two, Mr. Speaker, we will be able to resolve the problem that has arisen there over funding to the Band Council and the administration of that fund so that ongoing work can be completed in that community. MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker. 6979

~ -.. -·- -- June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Tape 2602 EC - 1 The hon. the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My supplementary - probably I will paraphrase a telegram that was sent to the Premier and myself and other members yesterday. It says, 'situation now grave in Davis Inlet. Fourth week, no pay for village workers. They will have to go on welfare. Bath house closed two weeks. Cut off from Hydro. Rural Development withholding $100,000.' Mr.

Speaker, if this be the case, as corning from the Chief of the Indian Band Council in Davis Inlet, would the Premier authorize - maybe the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) can answer now. Could the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development have an i~ediate investigation into the spending of those funds so that the Indians in Davis Inlet - SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: - will not be deprived of a reasonable and decent living? SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PEC~FORD: Well, the minister is here now and he can answer, but that is not the full story. I do not know, perhaps the hon. the member does not know the full story about the situation down thereiand if he does,then he is only telling part of the story by reading out the telegram. So he should tell the whole story when he asks that kind of question because he can leave the wrong impression. But I think the department-and the minister can answer the question now- was waiting for some justification for funds already spent. But the minister is better able to answer it than I am. 6980

- .... -'",...... ·- June 18, 1981 Tape 2602 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, there has been some confusion, controversy, discussion about funding being provided to the community of Davis Inlet for a couple of weeks now and I have a list here - it is much too long to read - having to do with the amount of funds expended this year past.

The year before - or provided to the community - a list of funding which is presently being held in the division of Northern Development out of the Goose Bay office 7 held in trust for valid reasons, as far as I can determine. The bath house has presented a problem. One of the problems associated with the lack of operation of the bath house in the last nurober of days was that two days ago we were informed as a division . that the community had run out of the supply of propane gas to heat the water.

We have made arrangements, and propane gas will be in there by Saturday, but I hasten to add that we were only notified of this two days ago. In any event, that is being taken care of. But no address the whole'general problem itself, or the general controversy of funding, how it is used and how it should have been used - because that is a very moot point - some of the funds that had been provided to the community over the last year were not used for the_purposes for which they have been intended; therefore, other programme areas have fallen short because of that.

But in any event, I directed my deputy minister and assistant deputy minister yesterday to get into the community of Davis Inlet as quickly as possible and try to resolve the situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. 6981

~ _, .... c;; ~- - June 18, 1981 Tape 2602 EC - 3 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary to the minister is in view of the fact that his deputy and his assistant deputy are going into Davis Inlet at the nearest opportunity, could the minister also take immediate steps to have an audit completed into the whole affair of the funding that has been allotted to the Band Co~oil, as presently many services have been curtailed? So could the mini .ster 6982

.- ~-=~~ ···- ---. ·~--- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2603 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: immediately take steps that an audit will be done and if there are problems with the Band Council or with this department at least let us solve thematter and make sure that this population of Indians who are in Davis Inlet will be treated fairly1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the hon. gentleman for his question.

An audit will be done within the next couple of weeks ; that is the timeframe in w·hich we are talking because , again , the audit itself is not a particular issue,but the issue under discussion here at this point in time is whether or not the community of Davis Inlet will eventually have control of monies allocated them on a yearly basis especially when the new native people's agreement is signed, hopefully before this month expires.

The intent of the audit is not only to indicate how money has been spent and how perhaps it should have been spent in the last year 1 but to indicate to the division whether or not the measures taken by the community of Davis Inlet are in such a manher as to indicate to government that they can indeed handle their financial affairs responsibly. The audit will determine that.And if that is the determination,that they can responsibly handle their financial matters,then they will obviously then gain control of the funds allocated to them on a yearly basis. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to raise some questions about a matter thati am sure they do not have a problem with out in Alberta and that is basking sharks. I had a number of calls from fishermen on the Southwest Coast today 1 esoecially in my own dis­ trict, and they tell me they never saw sharks as plentiful, they are getting entangled in the nets, destroying the salmon 69d3

- • ~ I' - - ~ ~ ,----;" ' -~-~, .... .-- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2603 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: nets and the fixed gear of the fishermen in that part of Newfoundland. Would the minister tell the House if it is legal for a fisherman to catch basking sharks in Newfoundland waters? MR. POWER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms!: MR. MORGAN: Not while they are basking. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, it is obvious, I guess, that the hon.gentleman, ~lthough the federal Minister of Fisheries is now in the Province, that he cannot contact him to ask him that question b~cause it is a federal matter.

The federal minister is now in the hon. gentleman's riding on the Western part of the Province. I sincerely hope, Mr. Speaker, that the sharks are not going to cause similiar problems to the problems caused by whales in the last couple or three years - MR. BARRY: Or federal politicians. MR. MORGAN: • - whereby fishermen are having thousands of dollars worth of damage to their fishing gear caused by whales. And now in some areas of the Provine there is some damage being caused by sharks. And in both cases these nuisances are federal jurisdiction. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: And, Mr.

Speaker, they are nuisances to the fishermen and they are a real problem to the fishermen because of the fact they are causing so much damage - 6984

June 18,1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MORGAN: to the fishing gear. MR. BARRY: federal policies? MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 2604 EL-l Oh, oh! - they are causing so much damage Are they doing more harm than the They are doing almost as much harm as the federal government policies, almost. But, Mr. Speaker, to answer the question in a more serious way, there are fishermen this year hoping to get involved - the university is doing some studies with them - and they are hoping to find a market for the shark meat, and the university thinks it is a possibility. I have my doubts about it, but the university - MR. WHITE: audible).

MR. MORGAN: The ~inister of Fisheries (in- Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Lewisporte (F. White) is always yapping when he is not supp­ osed to be yapping. MR. CALLAN: You tell him,'Jaws'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the fact is there could be some potential for sharks, maybe there is. I know there is not much potential for whales these days only to cause damage a~d to hurt the fishermen, but if there is a potential there we will pursue it vigorously. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the·hon. member Mr.

Speaker, it is so obvious, Mr. ·speaker -no wonder my colleagues would laugh! - it is so obvious that the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) has not got the foggiest notion what he is talking about. 6985 ~

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2604 EL-2 MR. MORGAN: The hen. gentleman should know all about sharks - he is a shark! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: The hen. gentleman is not up on what is happening regarding sharks in this Province. Well, let me ask the hen. gentleman - I might say, by the way, for the benefit of the hen. gentleman, in case he does not know, there is no restrictions on sharks in Newfoundland. MR. MORGAN: I did not say there were. MR. NEARY: No, but the hen. gentleman again said it is a federal matter. Well, let us talk about processing. That is a provincial matter.

Would the hen. gentleman tell us if there are any plants processing sharks in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hen. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, we will be glad to pursue the idea of putting a manufacturing plant in LaPoile to manufacture sharks any day of the week. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Again, Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentle- man has shown his ignorance to this subject.

Would the hen. gentleman tell the House if it is possible today for fishermen who capture these sharks, if it is possible for them to market any parts of the sharks? For instance, is there a market for tne fins, is there a market for the liver or is there a market for the flesh - could the hon. gentleman give the House that information? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. tne I•linister of Fisheries. IviR. IviORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle~~~ should be aware by now that the species commonly know to fishermen in our Province as dogfish is also a shar:V: s~ecie8 and that species has been somewhat utilize1, in fact - MR.

NEARY: Oh, oh, oh! 6986

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2604 EL-3 MR. MORGAN: - the hon. gentleman may laugh, but dogfish is now a very important species to the f-ishermen of our Province because of the initiatives taken by this adminis­ tration. SOME .BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR •. MORGAN: And as a result of tll .e success -of that initiative, we will embark on any initiative tllat will help further Sllark species become an asset for fishermen. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 6987

June 18th., 1981 MR. S. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for LaPoile. ---------- - - - ----: ,.-- _ .. .. : - ·- Tape No. 2605 DW - 1 A final supplementary, Mr. A final supplementary, the hon. MR. s. NEARY: This gets more amazing all the time, Mr. Speaker. It is absolutely incredible, the answe+s we are getting from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who should know everything about the fishery of this Province. Well, would the hon. gentle­ man tell us if there is anybody in Newfoundland at the present time, if he knows of any firm in Newfoundland at the present time that is processing shark liver?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Any further questions? . MR. S. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle- man does not know the answer! MR. SPEAKER:' member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: how much - MR. J. MORGAN: MR. S. NEARY: Another supplementary, the hon. Can the hon. gentleman tell me I do not know yet. Well, I know the answer or I would not have asked the question. SOME HON. JYEMBERS: Oh, oh!. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. S. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman tell the House what price Newfoundland fishermen can get for shark liver? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S.

NEARY: time - SOME HON. JYEMBERS: Oh, oh! Any further questions? Mr. Speaker, this is the first Oh, oh! 6988

, ...... ~.- - June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2605 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! A final supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: It is the only time in his life, Mr. Speaker, that he has not been vocal in this House hecause he does not know l'lhat is going on in the fisherv. Well, let me ask a final supplementary. - MR. SPEAKER: A final supFlementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: I have no choice, Mr. Speaker, but to put this on the Late Show. It is absolutely incredible!

And I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if there is any assistance or will there be any assistance available from the hon. gentleman's department to help fishermen get the required equipment to prosecute the shark industry in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if we had the juris- diction right now we would have assistance for the fisher- men on the Southwest Coast who are denied assistance from the federal government for a drift net salmon fishery, refused compensation by the federal government the last two weeks. Refused!

No compensation because they cannot fish for salmon on the Southwest coast of the Province. We would put in place a compensation programme for the fishermen who had their fishing gear damaged by whales within our waters. These two major programmes right now ~ i£ "" wPtPt under federal jurisidiction;we would compensate if we had jurisdiction and help the fishermen. Rightly so, also, if we had jurisidiction we would get involved in providing all the necessary incentives and assistance to make sure the fishermen who want to get involved in 6989

-- ------------ --- -- -.., ~.--... .~.~""- :;;. ·.,_.; - June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2605 ow - 3 MR. J. MO.RGAN: the shark fishery, who want to get involved,we will help them get involved. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP~ER (Simms): MR . S. NEARY: absolutely increciib.le! The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, the answer is Incredible! It is incredible the fool the hon. gentleman has mad .e of hir(tself! And I give notice that I would like to debate the matter during the Late Show this afternoon. "MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAXER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for th "e Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) • I am tempted to ask the minister how he plans to transport the money to the Terra Nova district for roads this year but I will ~eave that for a later time. ?<ffi • F • ROW E: SOME HON. MEMEERS: MR. T. LUSH: Pigg y- ba ck. Hear, hear! I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the minister can inform bon. members whether or not he has received the report from the CN Committee on intra-pro­ vincial ferry service within the Province and,if so, wh1;m he plans to make that report public? 699 0

June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. DAWE: ~ - - . . . ., Tape No. 2606 NM - 1 The han. Minister of Transportation. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the report has been received. The report was initiated by an inter­ departmental committee that was put up some time ago and subsequently employed CN to do a study on the intra-provincial ferries. That report has been completed.

It is now back in the hands of that inter-departmental committee for assessment and as soon _ as that process has been completed, I have indicated to the ferry operators some time ago that I would be sitting down with them and discussing the recommendations from that report and when we have decided as a department to go ahead with, and what recommendations we may be going ahead with, the report will be made public. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, no doubt the minister is aware that it has been two years now since there has been any substantial money spent on the improvement of these intra­ provincial ferries throughout the Province. Last year the department set up its own in-house committee. That in- house committee recommended the setting up of this CN committee. Now we have their report in, so can the minister indicate in any way whether or not he anticipates any expenditures for the improvement and upgrading of these ferry services in this fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DAWE: The han. Minister of Transportation. Mr.

Speaker, prior to that agreement a number of years ago when the Province was in the process of taking over the operation of the intra-provincial ferries,one of the processes that were agreed upon was that the federal government would become involved with the Province in the 6991 ·-

-." . " - . ,., '- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2606 NM - 2 MR. DAWE: completion of a number of terminals as it related to the ferry services. we had hoped that this agreement and the financial arrangements could have been made with the federal government by this time so that the construction of these ferries could have been ongoing at the present time. To date that agreement has not been signed. The Province has its money in place and it is just waiting for the federal government to come across with thei~ money.

As soon as that happens, hopefully this year, we will be able to go ahead with improvements to the ferry services. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, that being the case, it is my understanding that the terminals at St. Brendan's in particular, these · have been completed, and have been completed a year ago. So does that mean now that the Province will put money into a new ferry service there, upgrading and moderninzing the ferry itself? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I have already indicated that when the report is assessed fully by my department and by the various officials that are going throuqh it now, a decision will be made as to our approach to any improvements that may be necessary in the ferry system. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, I gathered from the minister in the previous answer that he was saying that he was waiting for some agreement from the federal governmen .t with respect to the completion of terminals. 6992

. ~ . June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2607 ah-1 MR. LUSH: I have indicated that with respect to the ferry service at St. Brendan's in particular that the terminals are completed, so" does that mean now, that in this fiscal year the minister will be looking at putting monies into improving the ferry itself, modernizing, upgrading that ferry itself? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. DAWE: The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, there are two things in question here.

One is the terminals associated with the ferry services around the Province, which is an integral part of providing an adequate ferry service, and the other is the necessary improvements that may be necessary to existing ferry services or new services as the case may be. As it relates to St. Brendan's or any other ferry service around the Province, the report, once it is assessed, some of the implications, administratively and financially may be able to be . implemented this year and others may not.

But at this time, until the complete report is assessed, I cannot say whether any specific expenditures will be spent on St. Brendan' s or Ga.ultois or any other area. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member ·for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Can the minister then verify again, because the minister seems to be confusing me, Mr. Speaker ·- MR. MORGAN: It must be easy. MR. LUSH: Not nearly as easy as it is to confuse the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) • Now if the Minister of Fisher- ies (Mr. ~rgan) w::>illd just answer the questions that he is asked, that w::>uld be fine. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: I am not asking the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) the question. He cannot answer those asked him, Mr. Speaker. 6993

June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. LUSH: -- -~~-:- ...... "' .... Tape No. 2607 ah-2 Order, please! A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I find that the minister's answer is a little baffling. The minister on the one hand has said that whether or not any money will be spent on the upgrading and the improving of ferry services is contingent upon certain agreements with the federal government, re: the construction of terminals. I have indicated where terminals are completed; and now he is saying - he is skating around the issue again - saying no monies will be spent until the report has been studied.

So which is which? Are we waiting for the report? Are we waiting for the federal government? Where are we? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, the answer to both is, yes. MR. LUSH: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULI<: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe}. It concerns the ferry terminals that he is relocating on Fogo Island, eventually, I hope.

As the minister knows when that happens the people of Fogo Island, if the roads are left in the same condition they are now from Rogers Cove to Farewell Head and from Stagg Harbour to Seldom, they will have to trav~l over gravel roads, which is not the case now. My question to him then is will he now give a commitment to the people of Fogo Island, the 5,000 residents there, that when the ferry terminal is completed the road will be paved and that they will not have to revert from travelling over paved roads, as they do now, to gravel roads? 6984 ·-

June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Transportation. MR. DAWE: -~· ····- Tape 2608 EC - 1 The hen. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, as it relates to water transportation , theferry service in this Province, as it relates to land transportation and to other forms of transportation as the case may be, this government is committed to provide the best services possible to the residents of this Province and will continue to do so. The people of Fogo, the people of St. George's district, even the people of LaPoile, will be subject to the benevolence of this government as funds become available. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR.

TULK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Fogo. SOME HON. MFMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! I have a supplementary for the minister. It concerns the same road, Mr. Speaker. I am under the impression that the Premier gave a commit­ ment to the Gander Bay - Hamilton Sound Development Association that the road from Rogers Cove to Fogo or across to Boyd's Cove would be completed within the span of the Five Year programme and we now have at least one year gone in that Five Year programme.

Could he tell us in what particular year he intends to see that that road is paved? MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated and I will reiterate again that this government is committed to provide the best service possible for 6985

..... Jupe 18, 1981 Tape .2608 EC - 2 MR. DAWE: the residents of this Province and we wil~ continue to do so. As funds become available and as projects are warranted, we will continue to provide services and transportation needs of the people of this Province. MR. TULK: MR . SPEAKER (Simms ): the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary; the han. Mr.

Speaker, the question that I asked the minister, in case he did not understand me, was what year of the Five Year programme that the government now has in place can the people of Gander Bay and Fogo Island hope to see that road paved? The Premier made the commitment, I did not. MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. WHITE: MR. SPEAKER: a supplementary. MR. WHITE: The hon. the Minister of At the earliest opportunity, A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Lewisporte, Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is for the Minister of Transportation.

And I am sure he will recall that a delegation accompanied by me from the Stoneville area appeared before the Cabinet in Grand Falls when they met there, and subsequently a commitment was given by the Premier to those people that the road would be done next year. So I am wondering if that is still the case, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Transportation. MR. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, to my recollection, that indeed was not the case at that meeting. 6986

June 18, 1981 AN HON. MEI-ffiER: MR . \'lHITE : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Lewisporte. MR. WRITE : .-...· .. -"<" or" •- Tape 2608 EC - 3 ·Hear, hear ! A supplementary, Mr. ·speaker . A supplementary, the hon . the I did not say, Mr . Speaker, that the commitment was given at that meeting. The commitment was given in writing subsequent to that. I do not have the letter, but I can get it from the people concerned . Now, I just wonder i£ that commitment remains in effect? 6997

June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. DAWE: - ;...~-,. "7' -.~- : -:-~._---.. ,,:.-.,: :- \~ Tape No. 2609 SD -1 The hon. Minister of Transportation. Mr. Speaker, I cannot really comment on that. I am not aware of any such letter so it would not be responsible of me to comment on it. MR. WHITE: I will get it for you, 'boy'. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the minister and it concerns the roads in the Province again, particularly in my district. When the present Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) was the Minister of Transportation, he guaranteed the people of the communities of Ladle Cove and Aspen Cove that their roads would be paved before the Bonavista North loop road was completed. MR. MORGAN: I guaranteed it be paved sometime. MR. TULK: He guaranteed them that it would be finished before the Bonavista North loop road was completed. That road has now been completed. When can those people expect to have their roads paved? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: At the earliest possible opportunity, The hon. member for Lapoile. Mr. Speaker, my - (Inaudible). Order, please! - question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook). MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. NEARY: The Minister of Fisheries, all of a sudden he becomes lippy, he could not answer my questions a fe'\'AT T'n(""'T11pnts aqo. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 6998

June 18, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: information. Tape No. 2609 SD - 2 Order, please! Wait until 5:30 and the Late Show. Order, please. Then go out now and try to get the Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Would the minister inform the House if she has received a letter or telegram of resignation from the Town Council of Burnt Islands in protest over the government carrying out a commitment made by the Premier in 1979 to install water and sewerage in the community of Burnt Islands? MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs. Oh, oh. Order, please! MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received a message. I think it came in this morning or late yesterday evening 1 but it is on my desk right now. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, the hon, member for Would the hon, minister tell the House how many letters or telegrams of resignation the minister now has on her desk as a result of the government playing politics"with the road programme and w:i:th the water and sewer programme ~n this Province this year? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MRS. NEWHOOK: MR.

NEARY: None, none. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. I did not quite get th.at. How many more telegrams from councils resigning or mayors resigning as a result of the government playing politics with the water and sewer programme this year? MRS . NEWHOOK: Well 1 we do not have any with regard to playing politics. 6999

. .. .... . . - . .., - . .... .. ..... .. .,.~ June 18, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2609 Hear, · hear! Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. member for LaPoile . so - 3 MR. NEARY: Certainly the one from Burnt Isl.ands is as a result of the government playing politics with the water and sewerage. The hon. minister should read the telegram in the House . Now will the hon . minister tell the House how many telegrams of protest or letters of protest she has from town councils because they were left off the list? 7000

---"!"'-"!7""'~""'! -~-------.:::- ~~ ,- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2610 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do have a telegram from the Council of Surnmerside because they did not get their approval for funding for their project, their water and sewer this year. And I am __ s_ure that the hon. member cannot say that that was playing politics. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. minister now inform the House what she intends to do about the Burnt Island situation where the community is now left without a mayor and council? What does the hon. minister intend to do about this situation? Is the hon. minister - MR. MORGAN: Who led them to resign? MR. NEARY: · Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is breaking the rules of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear 1: hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has about twenty seconds to complete his question. MR.

NEARY: So would the minister tell the House in twenty seconds what she intends to do about the crisis in Burnt Islands? MR. SPEAKER: MRS . NEWHOOK: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, I regret very much the decision of council to resign. I think in these circumstances it is very important for the council to continue its responsibilities and to look after the concerns of the people who elected them, and to ensure that the present services continue and to stay on in office and to keep on pushing for the additional services that they are requiring. 7001

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2610 NM - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: And I regret that Burnt Islands is not in a unique position. We have seventy-five other municipalities that are just as disappointed as Burnt Islands, And if they chose to resiqn.well' regret it very much, I am sorry to hear it , but I cannot prevent them from resigning. I will be in touch with Burnt Islands and as a matter of fact there is a teleqram on the way to them riqht now. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The time for Oral Questions has expired. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. HOLLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I rise on behalf of ninety-five voters who are property owners on the Salt Pond- Winterland Road. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOLLETT: of Burin-Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: UR. SPEAKER: MR. HOLLETT: petition is as follows: Oh, oh! Order! This road is located in the district Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the "We, the undersigned, are very concerned over the deplorable condition of the road from Salt Pond to Winterland.

The blind turns, narrow points, sight limiting underbrush, excessive speed limits near residential areas, careless and speeding drivers, heavy trucks 7002 ·-

~ · •.: ..... r ., • ... .,. ,.- June 18, 1981 TApe No. 2611 EL - 1 MR. HOLLETT: and above all the blinding, chok- ing clouds of dust combine to keep all of us constantly worried about the health and safety of our families, £rustrated in our attempts to repair and maintain our properties,and gen­ era :lly wishing that we could someway haul our homes else­ where. "How much longer must we wait for pavement?

This route along which we live is one of the busiest on the Peninsula or most parts of rural Newfoundland,especially during the Summer months when tourists have to travel on the Winterland Road to reach the Golden Sands. The route needs to be paved not only for us but also for the benefit of the hundreds of motorists who use it daily. ·~e do not ,understand the type of neglect which forces to live under such conditions. If we cannot have pavement right away,then certainly ~omething can be done to alleviate the situation.

"We propose the following temporary measures~ ~ne, upgrade the road by straightening the blind turns, widening the narrow points and removing the underbrush which limits the view of oncoming traffic, children at play, etc. Two, lower the speed limit near the residential areas to 30 kilometers and enforce them with frequent RCMP patrols and speed checks. Three, reroute heavy trucks around the area. Four, post signs near residential areas denoting children at play. Post signs at each end of the routs denoting rough,dusty roads.

Five, dust inhibitors, suitable for use near residential areas,should be spread at the beginning of May, mid-June and again in August. "we believe that the five proposals we have put forward should be put into effect without delay. They have all been requested or suggested by some of us to the Department of Highways, the Town Council, our local member, etc., but it seems that the voice of the individual, ordinary 7003

·- -----~:-:----;~- ......... :~-,. \~ June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2611 EL - 2 MR. HOLLETT: citizen has little effect and we can only hope that this more formal request will bring our ?light to the attention of those responsible for the imp£ove­ ments we are requesting!' Mr. Speaker, just briefly speaking to the prayer of the petition, I would like to point out that this particular road links Fortune Bay, Winterland, Grand Bank, Marystown Highway to the Burin region.

And literally tpere are hundreds of people daily commute to work in the Burin region from ~renchmen's Cove, Garnish and this area, plus the fact that we have the Golden Sands on one end,which the total population utilize at some time or another during Summer months, from the Burin- Marystown region. And conversely, of course,the residents of Grand Bank, Fortune, Garnish, the Western side of the peninsula,use our great provincial park at Fresh Pond which is on the opposite end of this road. And those residents - they have built lovely homes there in good faith.

The intent was to upgrade and pave this road some years ago. Most of them have municipal service in relation to water and that and they are very very disturbed this year be­ cause there is not even any calcium chloride spread there yet - 7004

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2612 DW-1 MR. HOLLETT: I am not sure, I understand there is not any in the Province yet even. I certainly support this petition fully. Mr. Speaker, as I have already said I support this petition fully and ask that it be laid on the table of this hon. House and that it will be referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. To the petition, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I would like- to rise ..... ,_..,.. and support the petition so ably presented by my colleague and friend for the district of Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) • The particular stretch of road that my hon. friend refers to, I believe, is travelled and used probably as extensively by the people living in the district of Grand Bank as in the district from which the petition originates. There is a great deal of traffic over this road and not only tourists in the Summer and the people who come form the St. Lawrence, Little St. Lawrenc-, Lawn area, Garnish, which use this particular road.

School buses travel over the road, it has been in the works now I believe, for paving for quite some time - oh, a number of years. I do not know. How many years? MR. HOLLETT: Ten years. MR. THOMS: Ten years ago. It has been talked about , it is an extremely important

section of road on the Burin Peninsula that has not yet had a coat of paving. 7005

·. June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2612 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: There are a lot of people, a lot of Newfoundlanders particularly who use this area,as my friend pointed out, in the Golden Sands area, it is used by a lot of people from my own district, and I think it is about time that some thought was given to paving this particular

section of road. I cer~ainly hope that my friend for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) has more luck than I am having with the Loop Road 1 but I think it is about the same distance really, It is what? An eight or nine mile stretch of road there. I fully support the petition and I hope that this administration finds time to keep off the talking about oil and gas and try to do something for the people of this Province. They deserve, after waiting for ten years, they deserve that this particular

section of road be upgraded and paved. Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. 000 MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): To the petition, the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker,I would like to just say a few words about the Winterland Road. I have travelled over it many times. I have gone down to Gold~n Sands. And the road,as a gravel road,is a good gravel road; it is a sandy road and I am sure if the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) were here he would have a few words to say about it so that we could get some grading on that road.

The road is not really a bad road, it is a pretty fair gravel road in the Province. I am sure that the minister has some calcium chloride to control the dust-because lots of people use both parks. I know I have often used the Golden Sands facilities down there 7006

·. June 18th., 1981 Tape No . 2612 01•1 - 3 MR. J. DINN: a.nd thousands of people go down and visit that area. So, if the rtinister of Transporta­ tion (Mr . Dawe) were here,I am sure he would stand up and support this. I cannot say whether it is in the programme or not but certainly it is a petition well presented by the hon. member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Hollett) and supported 7007

".,. ~-- -:-: -:--.;:~ .. -,~ June 18, 1981 Tape 2613 EC - 1 MR. DINN: by the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns), and I am sure that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) will seriously look at that petition. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 3, Bill No. 31. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Establish The Newfoundland And Labrador Youth Advisory Council," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 31). MR. MARSHALL: Order 4, Bill No. 35.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Libraries Act, 1975," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on_the Order Paper. (Bill No. 35). MR. MARSHALL: Order 5, Bill No. 10. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mining And Mineral Rights Tax Act, 1975," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL : Or~er 6, Bill No. 9. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Garnishment Against The Remuneration Of Public Officials," read a third time; ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 7, Bill No. 7.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local School Tax Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR .' MARSHALL: Order 8, Bill No. 8. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teachers' Association Act, 1974," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. 7008

·--·-··.;..---r ·-·· .:;-:-- -,- June 18, 1981 Tape 2613 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Order 9, Bill No. 16. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Judgment Recovery (Nfld.) Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 10, Bill No. 53. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 11, Bill No. 51.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Enable Insurance Corporation Of Newfoundland Limited To Become A Federal Corporation," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 12, Bill No. 27. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Income Tax Discounters Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 13, Bill No. 26. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Change Of Name Act, 1978," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 14, Bill No. 23.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Human Rights Code," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. MARSHALL: Order 15, Bill No. 22. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting Private Investigation And Security Services," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. 7009

• • •• • •• c •. ~-- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2614 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Motion one. The Committee of Ways and Means, the Budget Debate. The last day we were debating the amendment which was proposed by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), and debate was adjourned by the hon. member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) , who had one minute remaining. He is not here. The hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshalll· MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is the adjourned Budget Debate, and '''e a:re now aiscussinq an 21"'""nn:ment to The Address in Reply, an amendment proposed by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) which proposes that the Address in Reply be amended by striking out all words after "that", and substitutinq what amounts to a·non-confidence motion regretting that- so that the House can pass that there is regret, and express its regret, of the Province not having control of its public debt, the public debt - given that the debthas tripled over ten years. And of course we ~ave heard the member for LaPoile on this and we have heard members with respect to it. I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that perhaps this motion may come to a vote today but if it does not I think it is a - a non-confidence motion is just as easy a way to debate the Budget Debate as the Address in Reply itself is. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the budget generally and with respect to this budget that is brought in,I think it is worthwhile to note at this particular time that putting together a budget in this Province becomes more and more difficult as the years go by.

And as a result of having to cut in areas where no government wishes to cut, there is a certain amount of groaning that you hear, and legitimate groaning,frorn various sectors of the public when services are either not increased at the rate that they think they should be increased, or 1 as in some cases, certain services perhaps have to be curtailed. 7010

r •• - • • • '"'~- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2614 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Although we have managed, Mr. Speaker, we have managed in this adrninistration,and it has been extremely difficult, it has been a real tussle,not to cut services to any great and measurable degree. But, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt about the fact that as the years go by, unless this Province can increase its revenue base, and unless it can increase its revenue potential, that this groaning is going to become more pronounced and the Province is going to go through much greater agony than it has at any time certainly in contemporary times.

We already, as we know, have the highest retail sales tax in this . Province. We have the highest personal income tax in this Province. When this adfuinis~ration, that is the Peckford Adrninistration.was elected one of its many promises were- one of the many promises,all of which it has kept, but one promise that - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: - one of the many promises that it made was that there would be no increase in retail sales tax. And there would be no increase in personal income tax. MR. TULK: (Inaudible) • MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not propose to try to talk over the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). All he can seem to do is make little grunts and laughs from time to time,but he can have his opportunity to partake in the debate. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, that was an undertaking, and that undertaking 7 0 11

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2615 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: has and will be kept. That particular undertakinr· of not increasing taxes has made it very difficult - the budgetary process is extremely difficult. So there is no doubt, Mr. Speaker, that in the future in this Province there has to be an increase in revenue and that increase in revenue cannot come from increase in taxe~ either retail sales tax, personal tax or any other type of tax 1because our people are already overburdened with tax and taxed more than the rest of Canada. I do not propose to get into the standard items as to where we can get our taxes.

They are quite evident,particularly to jurisdiction in the offshore and particularly through the transmission of our hydro power. That has been debated and debated quite extensively in this session and in other sessions 1 but it certainly needs to be mentioned that these are the areas and unless we get increase in revenues from these sources, Mr. Speaker, there are going to be extremely and increased difficult times ahead for this Province.

This is why - and I have to point it out - I just cannot understand how Newfoundlanders, no matter what their political stike may be,and I deplore the lack of support that comes from certain quarters in this Province, particularly from the hon. gentlemen there opposite,with respect to the urgency of the need to establish the jurisdiction in our offshore and the absolute urgency of having the right to be able to transmit hydro power and thus gain our rightful revenue from our resources. By the same token, I would also like to underscore again how much I deplore statements made by people in this Province.

Th.ere was one I heard today from a person, who was a former member of this House for a long period of time 1 deploring what amounts to be the. local preference policy of this government which has caused there to be a lot of jobs 7 01 ·2

~ ~- ___...,..,..-- -.~- :- -o- -~ - -, - June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2615 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: provided for young Newfoundlanders who would not otherwise be available. And the way in which that particular policy has been distorted by those who wish to distort it for their own purposes is regretable indeed because, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter remains it is only through that policy that a lot of our young people are ever going to be able to get the opportunity to be able to get those jobs.

And this business of trying to equate it with anti-Canadianis~ and what have you is rather sad indeed and it points , as far as I am concerned, to a complete lack qf understanding on the people who p~t forth these positions of the way in which Confederation works, the way in which federal/provincial relationships work. It is a product, Mr. Speaker, of the outlook that Newfoundland's position in Confederation,when it joined Confederation, that we should be grateful for everything we get from Ottawa, that we are getting more from Ottawa then we put out,and that is not the way in which we have to look at it, Mr.

Speaker. We are obviously grateful for the equalization payments and the social security benefits and the security which has come to our people as a result of our joining Canad~, but it has not been a one-way street,as has been amply indicated by the statement that was given by the Premier the other day in this House as to the comparative benefits between Ottawa and St. John's , that they flow from Newfoundland - the benefits that the rest of Canada get from Newfoundland exceed what we get from Ottawa. So it is rather deplorable, Mr.

Speaker, that the Uncle Toms of this world in this Province will do what they are doing, make the statements that they are making and derrogate positive policies that have been 7Ll13

, .. -- -· -- ~ June 18, 1981 Tape No,2616 EL - 1 MR. MARHSALL: made by this government for the employment of younger people. I also, Mr. Speaker, in conncection with this and in connection with this ~hole need for revenues and our jurisd~ction on the offshore, I also put a little caution in the way of our businessmen in this Province.

Traditionally, many of our businessmen have been only really concerned,because of the depressed economy in which we live,in the short-term dollar, and they would like to see,andunderstandably,construction jobs begin so that it will be a sh~-term impetus to the economy such as we saw with respect to the Upper Churchill develop­ ment. At that particular time there was much stimulus to the economy through construction jobs and what have you,but we have seen what remained afterwards.

What remained after­ wards has been this scandalous $600 million a year which is flowing westward fr?m our Province and there has been no lasting benefits. And this is why,as far as I am concerned,the business community, some of whom, not all, but some of whom like to put pressure on one way or the other to get this jurisdictional battle, as they call it, resolved so that we can get on with it. It is an understanding sentiment, Mr.

Speaker, but it can lead to g~eat danger to the future of this Province to jump in immediately, just for the short­ term advantage,and thereby deprive the people of Newfoundland of their legitimate rights in the long-term. Now, back again, Mr. Speaker, to the non-confidence motion, for just a moment. I find this rather ludicrous that this non-confidence motion would be brought in. First of all, by the hon. gentleman there opposite decrying the amount of the debt, the indebtedness of this Province, it is true that this Province has to borrow each year in order to 7014

, - - · ·- ~ ; ~ .. -,.. : ""- ·, ·, . ., ..--: June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2616 EL ~ 2 MR. MARSHALL: keep afloat:, much more than it should have to borrow, much more than the government would like to borrow,but it is a fact of life in order to keep the bare minimum of services at the present time that bOrrowings have to be . we hope in the future, thro .ugh our policies, through the policies of this admin~stration - there are already indications that these policies are work­ ing,because the economy is getting healthier -but the fact of the matter is we are stil.l now 7015

-. - ..... - ~-"" June 18,1981 Tape No. 2617 ah-1 HR. MARSHALL: having to borrow more than we should and we will for a long period of time. But it seems to me a little bit ludicr .ous that a resolution like this would be brought in by the Liberal opposition. The start of the borrowings - the borrowings started, Mr.Speaker, by the administration that took over here in 1949 and was here until 1971.

We all know what bill-payer loans are and really what in effect this administration and the previous PC administration have ~ad to do is really get bill-payer loans every year in effect to pay the interest because when we took over in 1971 there was approximately $1 billion in direct debt alone in this Province and we all know what 10 per cent,or in those days even 8 per cent interest was applied to that every year. So every year from 1971 you had to borrow $80 million,and the next year when the interest went up $90 million and $100 million a year just to pay the interest on their debt.

The hon. gentlemen there opposite would like it to appear that when they stopped 1the interest on the debt which they strangled this Province with stopped 1but unfortunately that is not so. Mr. Speaker, just for the record I happened to come across in my records - unfortunately there are some people there opposite who would like to destroy records of things,but it was sort of whimsical really in a way that when the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Nearv), who was a member of that administration,brought in his non-confidence motion that I came across in a few recrods that I keep this little booklet which was delivered in the House of Assembly - and what it was, it was Premier Smallwood's speech delivered in the House of Assembly on June 1,1964. I know the hon. member for St. John's North 7 0 1 6

··- · -- - --~ ·- June 18,1981 Tape No. 2617 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: (Mr. Carter) has it written in his heart. Anyway what was it on, Mr.Speaker? What was this on? It was on the subject of the Budget Speech at the time and especially on the subject of the public debt. And it constituted an apologia,Mr. Speaker, for the public debt at the time and a rationalization of the public debt which had th.en comparati vely speaking grown to enormous proportions. It incidentially was published by the Liberal Party of Labrador and Labrador and sent out to their supporters around.

This docum·ent ·itself indicates where the pebt came from, so it is rather - AN HON. MEMBER: Read out some. MR. MARSHALL: AN HON.MEMBER: MR. MARSHALL: No, I would not,really . Just read a little bit. No, I would not 1 real:ly. 7017

.,. ... ~ ........ -:-;:-""':.-- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2618 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Well, there was one humourous one here and I do not want to get on to that, I really do not. There was one here about the style of the hon. gentle­ man, which was a very engaging style, I must say, about, you know, -asking questions, what would we do, etc., etc. And he started talking AN HON. MEMBER: Table it. MR. MARSHALL: I do not need to table it because it is part of Hansard. Actually it is part of the Hansard - MR. THOMS: You are reading it in to the Hansard. MR. MARSHALL: No, no. It is part of the Hansard.

It was the speech given at the time in the House. And that is rather interesting because that Hansard, by the way, has not been published Hansard was suspended somewhere in - MR. THOMS: He is trying to (inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: - in 1957 when somebody got up on a point of order in the House type of thing, or somebody in the government did something - we cannot find out the reason why. But the hon. gentleman wanted an example. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) wrong. MR. MARSHALL: Just a second now.

In his own rhetorical fashion, when he is talking about who owns the schools and we have to have money fo·r the schools, he said- MR. LUSH: Look to the future. MR. MARSHALL: - "So Newfoundland does not need ever again to borrow a single dollar. We could turn a­ round and say to the churches, 'My dear Christian friends, you go out and borrow money and you build your own schools"'. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: So what the nature of the document was that the hon. gentleman was protecting his deal Christ­ ian friends. So, the poor Christian souls, Mr. Speaker, in 7018

··- ·-· _ .... :~: . ...-·,- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2618 EL - 2 MR. MARSHALL: this Province, this is the point I am making today, have to pay for that with interest, that the debt in ~his Province has accelerated to $2 billion as ~ a relult of the administration of which the hon. member, who now proposes the non~confidence motion, was a member. He himself is partly responsible for $2 pillion plus of the debt and he blames us for the debt. So this is why it is nonsense. I was also interested, Mr.

Speaker, in seeinq this - now, if this non-confidence motion is passed, if it is passed, if the House in its wisdom decides to pass it, this Budget which is being passed will not pass, Mr. Speaker, and the expenditures which are made in this budget will not be made. MR. BARRY: The LaPoile Hospital. MR. MARSHALL: Now that is the first thing I was going to take. The han. gentleman there opposite, in this budget there has been provided $1,065,000 for a start of a hospital. Where? In a Tory district in St. John's, Mr. Speaker? No. In a Tory district outside? No. In the dis- trict of the han. member for LaPoile, Mr.

Speaker. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, this $1 million, when that is spent, as it will be spent this year, will result in another four or five million dollars next year until this hospital is built. Now, the hon. gentleman by proposing a non-confidence motion is in fact, and let there be no doubt about it, in fact, turning down and saying to this government that the people of LaPoile whom I represent do not want that hospital. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: The same way, Mr.

Speaker, with the hospital the hon. gentleman there opposite, the health clinics in Forteau and Petit Forte that are provided. If they are going to vote against that - and what is the member for 7019

~ ·- -.... ~ ..;.... .... June 18 , 1981 Tape No . 2618 EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL : Lewisporte (~rr .White) go ing to do? Let us see ; we hear an awful lot of moaning and groaning about this government not doing anything except for Tory districts - MR . WHITE: ~1R. MARSHALL: colleagues do. MR. NEARY: MR . ~1ARSHALL : after . I did not say that. I know , 'but the hon . gentleman's I think (inaudible). I will get to the hon. gentleman 7020

• - - - • .-¥ .-.. June 18, 1981 Tape 2619 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: What the hon. gentleman from Lewisporte (Mr. Nhite) says he does not no, he does not, Mr. Speaker, and he does not for a good reason. In the Municipal Grants Act - municipal grants tabled by the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) for Campbellton - I believe it is the hon. gentleman's district, water and sewerage, there is $500,000 there; that was in Municipal Affairs. Then we look over at Project Designations, 1981 - 1982; Municipal Capital Works programme, again for Lewisporte, for roads $200,000. MR. WHITE: (Inaudible). MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman says, no, he does not say it. No·, he does not say it, but I am going to challenge the hon. gentleman now: Is he going to vote for this non-confidence motion? Because if he votes for it, what he is going to do-is vote against these provisions that have been provided for his constituents. MR. AYLWARD: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: If they do, Mr. Speaker, they will be voting against an amount of $110,000 i~ Badger's Quay in the Leader of the Opposition's district. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: In Garnbo, $700,000 for municipal capital works programmes, in the hon. the member for Grand Bank's (Mr. Thorns) -not his horne town but one of the towns that he has lived in for a long period of time. He is going to vote against $700,000 for Garnbo. And on and on, Mr. Speaker, you can see here, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition's district, in T'lesleyville-there is an amount here for water out in Wesleyville. So let us be clear, Mr. Speaker, on this. This budget provides for th.ese expenditures and anyone voting against this budget is voting against making these particular expenditures. 7021

~ : -- - - ---::- ......... June 18, 1981 Tape 2619 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: This is what they are doing. They will also be voting against the 10 per cent increase for social assistance recipients; they will also be voting against the increase in pensions for pensioners - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - and on and on, Mr. Speaker, ad infinitum. And that is a reason to support the budget. I know the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) is not going to vote against it. He is not going to vote against these expenditures for these people.

If he does, and if the Opposition vote against it, well, they are telling us that their constituents do not want it. The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is telling us that the people of Channel do not want the hospital. And we are under great constraints. We shall probably provide the hospital in spite of the member for LaPoile. Perhaps we will have to look at it if the elected representative of LaPoile turns around and tells us that the people whom he represents do not want us to make the expenditure and introduces a motion to try to bring down the government and defeat the budget: Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, you are going to have to look a little bit harder at things. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that this non-confidence motion indicates what games the Opposition are play~ng, have been playing and continue to play in this House. We saw it on Monday, Mr. Speaker, when for one-half hour the business of this House was suspended whilst members on the opposite side got up on points of order, challenged elemental rules that were provided under the Standing Orders and even went so far as to do what should be unprecedented in any democratic House, appealed the ruling of Mr. Speaker, 7022

~.-- .., _.._ ...... ·•· L•.r --v·· June 18, '1981 Tape 2619 EC - 3 MR ·. MARSHALL: who was in the Chair at the time. And what happened to it? SO.ME HON • !'1E."1BERS : Oh, oh ! MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman would know. This is the problem with the hon. gentlemen. If they would only read the rules they would find that this type of action 7023

~ ·~,~---.·-- June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2620 DW - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: is pretty well unprecedented.' It is extremely unusual. If they consult their friends in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, they will find it is rarely done in the House of Parliament in Ottawa. It is rarely done in other provincial Legislatures. But the hon. gentlemen there did it. And what was the substance of their bleat, Mr. Speaker? The next day they came into the House and the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Near~) who was the architect of it all got up in the House and said, 'We are not re-. searching what we did yesterday to see if we had a point first of all'. That is what he did. On that basis, Mr. Speaker, they were prepared to challenge the authority of the Speaker. So who is playing games in this House?

The hon. gentlemen there opposite are playing games in this House and as I said yesterday or the day before when I was speaking- I made a brief illusion to this-what happened, ~- Speaker, is we have had shot across this House from time to time, 'Oh, we are not going to get out of here until the end of the Summer. We are not going to get out of here until Christmas~ etcetera. And at each and every time I say, 'I could care, you know, I could care less. As far as we are concerned, we are going to do the business of this House for as long as it takes.And this is the government's position.

So the hon. gentlemen there opposite . though,many of them have come to me and they Privately said - which is understandable come the Summer - You know, 'When are we going to get out?' They want to get out. I know there are perhaps other members in the House who want to get out as well. ~~t they want to get out. So what they were trying to engineer, Mr. Speake~ and they were prepared to go aqainst all rules of authority and try to take the House on their backs - and this is what I object to - what they were 7024

.,..-._ 7,~· ._o;-- .- ::"-' -~-" ,~ June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2620 DW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: really trying to engineer - because there were ample reasons why 1 if we wanted to, there were ample serious transgressions of the rules for members to be ejected. We have seen that happen in time past and I say that that is what the hon. gentlemen there opposite were trying to engineer. And in doing it they were prepared to turn a blind eye at accepted parliamentary practices. The next day, as I say, they come back in this House and they have the audacity without even - I am waiting, Mr.

Speaker, to hear a public apology from certain members opposite not to the government but to the Speaker and to the authority that the Speaker represen~s4 Because the next day they had the gall, the consummate gall to get up in this House and say, 'We are now researching the raucous and the ruckus that "'e kicked up yesterday to see whether we are right. I am still waiting to here abqut the point of order, still waiting to hear the point of order being researched and what have you and brought before the House. And when it is, I would hope, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), and the people that he so obviously leads ,~ill;et up in this House and convey their apologies to the Speaker and to the Chair for the derogation of the rules and authority of this House which was done in probably the basest way that has ever been witnessed in this House before. Now, Mr; Speaker, back to the budget. As I say, this non-confidence motion is another example, is a patent example of the type of games that the hon. gentlemen are trying to play. In effect, when they are voting against it they are voting against not just one or two items but every item in it.

They are voting against the expenditures that government have made in their own districts. And despite what the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) may say, or the hon. 7025

- .·c :C:;:-'".- June 18th., 1981 Tape No. 2620 DW - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) may say, as far as this government is concerned there are am~le monies given out. Not enough - ample means enough - I do not mean that. There is as much money given out as can be and it is fairly distributed. Over the ten year history you will see that all districts in this Pro- vince have been treated reasonably. I happened to be down yesterday, Mr. Speaker, in St. John's East Extern and if they ever wanted to see an example - if they could look back as to the way St.

John's East Extern was between 1949 and 1970 and what it is now. Between 1949 and 1970 there were dirt roads, there were country paths in the area, there was not an ounce of pavement! And why? Because St. John's East Extern had the audacity to return a ?regressive Con- servative member ever since Confederation. And when we formed the government,under the able direction of the present member for St. John's East Extern, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), that wrong was righted. But, Mr. Speaker, when we did that, when we were doing that we expended monies in all districts in this Province.

Not as much, Mr. Speaker, as we would have liked to. We would like to be able to spend a lot more money in this Province . Andin order to spend more money in this Province,what we have to do is we have to increase our revenues. 7026

'. .::- .- June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2621 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: We cannot increase our revenues on the backs of the people of this Province through taxes. The people of this Province are taxed beyond endurance. They are taxed as much as they possibly can be. We can only then increase our revenues in this Province through our rightful ownership of our resources and the development of our own resources, our offshore resources, through the development and sale of power in our rivers, and through control of our fisheries in an effective manner. Now, that is the only way, Mr.

Speaker, that this Province is going to be able to get up off the ground. This is the only way, as I said when I spoke, that the groans which you hear from time to time from leaders in society are not going to turn to real agony. And it is agony, believe you me, that this government can share in. And anyone who has had the responsibility of putting together a budget in this Province and sees how increasingly difficult it becomes year after year after year, can fully appreciate it. But it is time, Mr. Speaker, that others appreciate it.

It is time that leaders in our community appreciate it, Be it the univeristies or be it the hospitals, or be it the school boards, be it whatever. :i:t is all very well to talk about the needs - this government knows the needs of the univeristy. It knows the need? of hospitals, etc., and it knows that there has to be much more provision for roads and other services. But we also know it is not just enough to state the needs, ·you have to see the broad as well, Mr. Speaker, as well as the individual. You have to see the provision of clothes 1 for instance , for foster children. You have to see social services.

You have to see the monies that are necessarily spent on vocational education. And on and on and on ad infinitum. That is the first thing you have to see. And 7027

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2621 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: then when you see that you see how impossible it is to meet these needs with the revenue we have available. So the only answer, Mr. Speaker, is to increase the revenue. The only way the revenue can be increased is through the development of the offshore. The only way that offshore can be developed is through us obtaining our rightful ownership. The only way that we can get our own resources in this Province is through development of our hydro power and the right to transmit it. Now what in God's name is wrong with that?

What Newfoundlander worth his salt is going to get up and challenge that? But yet, Mr. Speaker, time after time after time I see the hon. gentlemen there opposite, and their party, taking up the cause of those people who would continue to deny us our rightful place in Confederation. AN HON. MEMBEF : Lies. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please~ MR. MARSHALL: They, Mr. Speaker, are the Uncle Toms, they are the Uncle Toms of this world. We need, Mr. Speaker, a few more people around,I think,in this Province, like the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) who had the courage and the gumption to take a stand which he took for the people of Newfoundland and a lot less than we have from the other hon. gentlemen there opposite, decrying, decrying our rights to ownership of the offshore, decrying our rights for transmission. Why are they not sending off as a caucus - why do they not send off a letter of violent objection to the Prime Minister of Canada of us being denied our rights for so many years to transmit our powers? If they want to do that they - you know that is something constructive the hon. gentleman can do.

Why do they decry the local preference policy of this Province, Mr. Speaker, which has provided hundreds of jobs for young Newfoundlanders that would be denied them? Why do they do that? Why, Mr. Speaker, are they 7028

., . ..., ..... ~ June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2621 NM- 3 MR . MARSHALL: on the side of Ottawa which is trying to wrestle away from us our rightful ownership of our resources? And why ,most of all, Mr. Speaker, play games in this House and lead forth asinine resolutions such as this , 7029

June 18, 1981, Tape 2622, Page 1 ~~ aph MR. MARSHALL: to vote against a budget which provides as much as- this- Province can afford at the present time and amply and in equal snaring with the hon. gentlemen•s districts there opposite? Now, how come, Mr. Speaker, a member can introduce a resolution like this when in effect the hon. gentleman, as I say, tells us when he introduces this that the people of Port aux Basques and the people in Channel do not want that hospital you are providing? What we preLer, Mr.

Speaker, is for you not to provide that hospital so we can carp and criticize again and say that this government is only spending money in districts of Tory members. That is what they want, Mr. Speaker. But we have a greater interest than this. We just do · not have interest in the people of Newfoundland in our own districts, we have interest in the people of all of Newfoundland and Labrador. And while I was speaking, Mr. Speaker, I tore up this asinine resolution led in by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) ..

While the hon. gentlemen there opposite,in the course of playing their games that they are so famous for- and I have no doubt that when we vote on it,we will dispose of that resolution in the same manner and give it the treatment it deserves. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER(Butt): question on the resolution? MR. THOMS: question, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAXER: Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! Order, please! Is the House ready for the Is the House ready for the The hon. the member for The House is certainly not ready for the question. Mr.

Speaker, what garbage , what unadulterated rubbish spews forth from the President of the 7iJ30 ·-

' ~ ..... ... June 18, l98l, Tape 2622, Page 2 -- apb MR. THOMS: Council(Mr. Marshall) every time he gets on his feet. And now we nave heard the ultimate. We have heard tne ultimate now from the President of the Council, the one with the nasty, nasty bile that must be in his mouth all the time. We have now heard him bring in the Benedict Arnold of Newfoundland politics as the shining light, the one that we should all follow, the one whose example we should follow, the shining light, the man who crossed from this side of the House to the other side of the House.

Now here is the true Newfoundlander, here he is for all to see. On a phoney, phoney issue he crossed the floor of this House and now we are asked by the President of the Council, probably the most powerful individual in the Peckford Administration today, to follow his example, the shining example of the traitor and the Benedict Arnold of Newfoundland politics. Well, it will be a frosty Friday in this Province when I would even consider following the example of a man with less than what I would consider intestinal fortitude. MR. BAIRD: (Inaudible). MR.

THOMS: So do not worry about it, the member for Hi.llnber West (Mr. Baird) , your back-bench seat is safe. The member for Kilbride(Mr. Aylward), your back-bench seat is safe. It is safe on that account. It is also safe on another account, because you do not have a Premier of this Province with the intestinal fortitude to do what should be done either. Every day when I pick up the paper and I read about now the Premier of this Province defends the Minister of Labour and Manpower(Mr.

Dinn ), then the people of this Province realize what integrity and honesty that we are supposed to get in this Provincer when the knight in shining 7031

June 18,1981 Tape No. 2623 ah-1 MR. THOMS: armour rode out on St. Patrick's Day- we are getting it alright, we are seeing what it is like. This non-confidence vote - I have never stood in the House and been prouder, Mr. Speaker, to indicate to this House that I will be voting in favour of this amendment. I will be voting non-confidence in this government. How often have I heard the President of the Council talk about the Liberal days from 1949 up to 1971 or 1972? How often have I heard the accusation of pork barreling in Liberal districts?

Now,I am not afraid to stand up here and talk about what this administration is doing to the district of Grand Bank. _ The district of Grand Bank is filled with intelligent human Newfoundlanders. MR. NEARY: Right on. - MR. THOMS: It is filled with intelligent Canadians. I do not have to tell them, I do not have to tell them what is going on. The President of the Council gets up and he reads of from the Minister of Municipal Affairs . (Mrs Newhook) her list of capital works programmes for this year.

Did he mention anything, did he mention one single, solitary community in the district of Grand Bank that got any money? Not one, single, solitary penny. The other day in the estimates debate the President of the Council stood up and he read of a list of what Grand Bank had received from 1971 up until 1979. The district of Grand Bank i~ that period of time was represented by a Tory minister. It was represented by a Tory minister. Since the people of Grand Bank have shown the good sense to return a Liberal to this House,they have got nothing.

So what did the President of the Council do when he stood up and read about what Grand Bank got when it was represented by a Tory minister? He proved the very point I was making, that this administration has deliberately cut off the districts in this Province - they deliberately cut off the districts 7032 .·

'.<r:.. June 18,1981 Tape No. 2623 ah-2 MR. THOMS: in this Province that they consider they have no chance of winning in the next election. And this is the honesty, this is the integrity, these are the ministers who stand up in this House spewing forth their love for all Newfoundland and all Newfoundlanders? It is a callous attempt to punish the people of this Province who fail to vote Tory. It is a callous attempt to punish districts in this Province where this administration feel they have no chance of winning in the next election.

I am not saying anything new, I am not saying anything that the people of Grand Bank do not know. They realize what is happening. I get a letter today from the Town Council of Grand Bank saying how disappointed they were. They were promised a bridge eight years ago which they are still waiting for. The President of the Council stands on his feet here and has the audacity to talk about the hospital in Port aux Basques. MR. NEARY: pay their taxes. MR. THOHS: They are entitled to it. They I hope my friend and colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) gets this hospital. MR. NEARY: They have a firetrap out there now. MR.

THOMS: I will give my friend from La Poile (Mr. Neary) one little bit of advice. He had better not count his chickens ~ill they are hatched. MR. NEARY: No, well, they are - MR. THOMS: I can take any member from this side of the House or I can take any member from the other side of the House and I can take you to Salt Pond, Burin on the Burin Peninsula 1 and I can show you a lovely piece of land 7033

., .. . ' ~~ -- June 18, l98l Tape _ No. 2624 SD - l MR. THOMS: a lovely piece of-ground_ I can show you where the DC-6s or the DC-7s or lOs, whatever it was, went in and dug out a hole back in 1975. MR. NEARY: minister to - ME. THOMS: Built a grandstand for the I can also show you.a nice big sign which has been erected at the site of the Burin Peninsula Hospital. And I can tell you this much, I can show you one other thing that is on that sign and it is there in great biq red letters, it is 'April Fool' . DR. COLLINS: Who put it there. MR. NEARY: The Tory government put it there. MR.

THOMS: The Tory government put it there. DR. COLLINS: No, who painted it (inaudible). MR. THOMS: No, no. The people who were fooled put 'April Fool' there, the people who were fooled by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) who was in that administration, by the President of the Council who was a member of that government, by every minister here who was a member of that government -the callous treatment that the Burin Peninsula has received from this administration.

So do not talk to me, do not the President of the Council get on his feet in this House and talk to me about the honesty and the integrity of this administration. It is as crooked as any administration anywhere in the free world and it is getting worse day by day. All this administration can do, all the ministers can do, all the President of the Council can do is stand on their feet day after day and try to convince the good people of this Province that those of us who sit on this side of the House are something less than Newfoundlanders. They are Tory lies and they are big Tory lies.

In 1979, during the 1979 election, the Premier of this Province hopped from place to place. He 7tJ34

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2624 SD - 2 MR. THOMS: did not do .rnuch hopping in Grand Bank, that was written off. He arrived there one time and about thirty-five people carne out to say hello and that was it, that was the ~nd of it, no more little Alfie in the district of Grand Bank and they have not seen him or anybody else since. But he was hopping all across this Province telling the people, making a commitment, making a solemn promise a sacred promise - he likes to use the word 'sacred' - that there would be no tax increases in this Province for the first three years of his dictatorship. So what do we see?

Since I have been a member of this House all I have seen are taxes being raised, Prior to 1979, prior to just a little while ago, -a person with an application fee of $10 could make an application for a piece of Crown land in this Province.And what we we have now? They have to pay $100 MR. TULK: One dollar, i~. i .t p.ot? MR. THOMS: - $100 to file an application for a piece of Crown land. We in this Province, Mr. Speaker, have the highest conveyancing fees anywhere in Canada, bar none. What is on my desk right now? "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act".

And the lower and middle income people in this Province are getting hit again in the wallet,right where it hurts. We already have the highest conveyancing fees in Canada and this administration, which was not going to raise taxes during their first three years in office !VI..R. TULK: MR. THOMS: house, if They will tax everything later on, 'boy'. - are now taxing deeds. A deed to your you want to register it now, it is going to cost you more. And prior to this we ha_d the highest registration fees in Canada. The retail sales tax in this Province was not going to be raised.

It is already at 11 per cent, the highest in Canada. What did the Minister of 7035

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2625 NM- 1 MR. THOMS: Finance do;' What did he turn. around and do? He stuck 22 per cent on-retail sales tax is what it is, MR. TULK: MR. THOMS.: in this Province. You are right. - is what it is "ga "olin.e consumption The - I cannot call them a coward, but it was a cowardly act of this administration because now as the price of ga~oline goes up the more retail sales tax this government is going to collect on the sale of gasolin.e. That is why the other retail sales - we are the only province in Canada probably that got two retail sales taxes.

But the other retail sales tax, the 11 per cent one, the income from that increases with the increase in products in this Province. And it is getting so bad, Mr. Speaker, in this Province today-­ conditions are bad. When my friend from ~aPoile (Mr. Neary} talks about the dire conditions in this Province,he is right. He is right. It is desperate in the city of St. John's today. MR. TULK: It could cause riots. MR. THOMS: There are more bankruptcies now, Mr. Speaker, than there has ever been. And they are growing day by day. The ordinary, every-day person in this Province cannot live.

They can hardly exist with the way that prices are going. If things are so rosy, Mr. Speaker, if the future of this Province is so great, then why do we not 1 why do we not give some of the amenities to the Province? The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) talked about the debt. that was incurred between 1949 and 1971. MR. WHITE: Twenty years. MR. THOMS: ~ow he said $1 billion, but that Mr. Speaker, is wrong. But,then,this Tory Administration does not mind dabbling with the truth either. 7036

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2625 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: The provincial debt, when the Tory Administration took over,was $750 million. The provincial debt as of today is $3.2 billion, three times what it was when the Liberals left office in 1971, in half the length of time. MR. WHITE: MR. THOMS: six times. MR. TULK: MR. WHITE: MR. THOMS: MR. TULK: done 'Bill' . MR. THOMS: Six times. That is right. That is really Show us something you have done. Show us something you have done. It is gone ·up six times. Show us something you have But why does it?

Conditions in this Province and,you know,the general feeling, the morale of the Province, Mr. Speaker, is down because we have the highest cost of living, we have the highest taxes. A man can no longer afford to own a home. It is something that at one time a person could save up for. He could save up $2,000 or $3,000 or $4,000 or $5,000 and make a downpayment on a house. Today what can you buy with a downpayment of $5,000. The average home in St. John's, a three bedroom 1,000 square foot home, has got an average cost of about $60,000 or $70,000. That same home is se~ling down in Grand Bank for $45,000 or $50,000.

I mean,where is this going to end? Where is it going to end? Now,the problem,as I see it ,isthat this administration are so busy and so caught up with a hatred towards Ottawa - AN HON. MEMBER: And oil and gas. MR. THOMS: -they are so caught up with the oil and gas that 7037

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2626 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: they refuse to do anything about it. They are waiting for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But that is not helping the people of this Province tod~y. That is not helping the people of this Province today. DR. COLLINS: What was John Crosbie ever (inaudible)? MR. THOMS: Look, I will not talk - I have so little respect for John Crosbie that I - I have as much res­ pect for John Crosbie as I have for the Minister of Labour (J.

Dinn) who, if he had any integrity about him at all, he would be sitting where the member of ·Kilbride (R.Aylward) is and the member for Kilbride would be sitting in the front bench. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, let this administratio~ get a feel ~or the people of this Province and the needs of the people of this Province. If that means going out and borrowing a couple of hundred of million dollars to do it - if it is the only way that the bit of road between Lawn and Lord's Cove can be upgraded and a culvert put across, then do it. Do it! I mean, the future is good.

Ten years down the road we should be well away with the oil and gas - MR. NEARY: They have no faith in themselves. MR. THOMS: - which is a question, I have been asking here, Mr. Speaker, a question about oil and gas 1 in this House now for this last two or three weeks. Nobody - the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry) will not put his mind to it. The President of the Council (W.Marshall) will not have anything to say about it, 'rhe Premier will not have anythinq to say about it. But we have an offer from Ottawa. MR. WHITE: A good offer. MR. THOMS: It is a good offer from Ottawa. 7038

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2626 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: ·Ottawa has said, 'Newfoundland, we do not know who owns the offshore oil and gas but in any event:ottawa says, 'Newfoundland, you can have it all, just like Alberta is getting it, the same deal. You will get the same deal as Alberta got. And we will have joint management and development of the offshore oil and gas~ Can you have more than all of it? I mean, can you have more than all of it? MR. HOLLETT: MR.

THOMS: 'Until you are a have province.' I do not know - however long it lasts out there, for however long it lasts, You will not believe anything he says, you will not believe anything be­ cause you do not want to believe. MR. NEARY: They are hoping to get another election out of the offshore. MR. THOMS: Because the Premier of this Prov- ince does not want to believe it. He is sitting there hoping, and I have a feeling that he is going to be wrong - that he can get another election out of the offshore oil and gas. MR. NEARY: Oh, he is going to try another election. MR.

THOMS: I J:elieve if the Premier of this Prov- ince had the courage to go to the people of this Province at this minute, this day - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: Two years today. Okay, two years today. ~. ~~ Well, the people of this Province - Listento the Premier over there now. 7039

June 18, 1981 MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: Tape No. 2626 I have not heard - Freddie the freeloader - Mr. Speaker, I have not heard of any celebrations going on across this Province tonight. I doubt very much if in any district tonight you are going to see bonfires - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! EL - 3 MR. THOMS: - celebrating two years of Peckford rule in this Province. MR. TULK: effigy. MR. THOMS: If they do, they will be burnt in I would not_be surprised though- I would not be surprised if they are hol1ing some kind of a ceremony. MR. TULK: To burn effigies. MR. THOMS: That is rig~t.

To burn the Premier and to burn some of his colleagues in effigy. That could be happening across this Province tonight. But as far as I know, I have not been,i~ can honestly say, Mr. Speaker, I have not been invited to any celebration in the district of Grand Bank tonight to celebrate the coming to power of little Alfie. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: Hea:r, hear~ I have not. I am not saying there is not a celebration, but I am saying that I have not been invited to one. MR. NEARY: There is none in Island Cove, I can tell you that. They are all unemployed over there. MR. THOMS: 7040

J-une 18, 1981 AN HON. MEMBER: over there. ,. ·-- . - .. Tap~ 2627 EC - 1 (Inaudible) have a lot of (inaudible) MR. NEARY: Yes, I guarantee ~ou. MR. THOMS: I tell you there is none in Bonavista tonight. There is no celebration ~n Bonavista tonight, Mr. Speaker. They are not celebrating two years of Pt:~kford administration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.· THOMS: Mr. Speaker, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) talked about the local preference policy. I have never shied away from this particular policy.

It is an abhorrent policy to me. ·It is a policy that,if I had any influence on this administration, would change. But, Mr. Speaker, I do not think anybody has got any influence on this administration. How many times did I hear the former Premier, Joe Smallwood, called a dictator in this Province? Well, we have now the greatest dictator that was ever Premier of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. THOMS: No wonder, Mr. Speaker, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is not in the Cabinet. No wonder the member for Stephenville-will not get in the Cabinet.

He was the one, and I have to give him credit - it is not too often that I find something nice that I can say about the member for Stephenville - but I have to give him credit, he was the first one,as far as I know, to realize - MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: wall - MR. NEARY: That>the handwriting was on the wall. He saw the handwriting on the That is right. 7041

June 18, 1981 Tape 2627 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: - when at the Tory leadership convention the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) dubbed 'little Alfie' as 'J. R. Peckford'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. THOMS: He was the first one and I have to give the man credit. Now, it also means that he will never get into the present Cabinet. He is being punished. And this Premier believes in punishing people. I am disappointed to see, though, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) would permit him to do it. I thought she was her own woman until the capital works came out for this year in Municipal Affairs.

I thought she was, but she has proven too that she is under the thumb, as Ray Guy would say, of our 'little Alfie'. Mr. Speaker, in the two or three minutes left to me, I want to say one more thing, and it is one of those things, to me, that makes a Tory a Tory. Just a few days ago, the Tory Party of this country brought in a Resolution ,or a private members' bill or whatever,in the House of Commons in Ottawa to debate capital punishment, and this to me is Tory th~nking. This is the way Tories think. And it is a difference. Capital punishment has been abolished in this country now for the last five or ten years.

That is about the only thing that the Tories in this country can find to bring in the House of Commons and to debate for two or three days - a bill to reinstate capital punishment. Now, I personally will not support capital punishment. 7042

June 18, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: Tape No. 2628 SD - 1 Political execution. I personally will not support it. They should get the political guillotine. But, Mr. Speaker, with the highest interest rates in this country, with the fact that a young couple today can never expect to own a home, with the price of bologna gone from forty cents a pound to $1.80 a pound - MR. PATTERSON: It w~s ten cents in my time and you could not get it. MR. THOMS: In your time - you have never gotten beyond 1931 that is obvious from your statement SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: age. MR.

THOMS: You are still back in the Victorian Mr. Speaker, in spite of all the problems facing the people of this country and the governments of this country - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. THOMS: - all the Tories can think about, the only thing they can bring on and discuss in the House of Commons - MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: capital punishment. MR. LUSH: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: You still believe in cha,stity belts, - is whether or not to reinstate And holding onto the key. And keeping the key. Oh, oh! MR. THOMS: And that is what is wrong.

In spite of all the problems in Newfoundland, the only thing that you can talk about every time you get on your feet is oil and gas. You talk about us calling the Premier of this Province a separatist or the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) a separatist or the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter} a separatist - MR. WHITE: They have always been. 7u43

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2628 SD - 2 MR. THOMS: Who started it? Who got up time after time after time and looked and pointed a finger across and said, 'You are not Newfoundlanders', you are something less than Newfoundlanders'? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. LUSH: MR. THOMS: Oh, oh. Order, please! Another separatist speakina up. Well, I am no more but I am as much a Newfoundlander as anybody in this House of Assembly, bar none. M}{. WHI'l'E: Right on. MR. THOMS: ~~d, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure you of this- I know my time is up- I believe I am a better Canadian than anybody on the other side of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: on the amendment? MR. MOORES: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MOORES: Is the House ready for the question No, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Carbonear. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, very much. Again this afternoon I have the opportunity to convey a few words of wisdom to all hon. members of the House. And we are now on an amendment to the Budget Speech introduced by my hon. colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary).

And it has been so long ago since he introduced that amendment, through no fault of his own, of c9urse, through the fault of· the government of this Province; that I had completely forgotten what it was and had to refresh myself both from Hansard and from consultation with my colleagues to find out exactly what it was that we amended to begin with and then to find out what the amendment was. And that is typical, Mr. Speaker, of the government of this Province. We had a budget brought down in this House six or eight weeks ago and we have not been able to 7044

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2638 GS - 3 MR. MOORES: fuLly discuss it on a consistent and continued basis since then. Another major issue, conveniently rerouted past the forum, the public form of debate in this Province, deliberately manipulated under the Orders of the Day so that the Opposition - we cannot get our teeth in it for a continued period of time so that we can make our points and bring out the futility of government programming and government management in this Province. If that is what the hon. the President of the Council, the member for St. John~s East (Mr.

Marshall), means when he says that this Province is in good hands, if that is what he means when he says that we have a capable administration, the Peckford administration, running the programs and policies that are supposed to help people in this Province, then why does he not have the courage t9 bring them into this House and have them debated fully as any responsible administration would do with a budget debate? Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to get into two very important topics, important to me as the member for Carbonear and important to me as a legislator in this Province, two very important topics.

One of them is going to be local and related to my district in Carbonear and the other, I hope, will be of a more broad, philosophical 7045

June 18,1981 Tape No. 2629 ah-1 MR. MOORES: nature and it will have to do with the Premier's speech in this House yesterday afternoon on a private member's resolution, a speech in which he referred to a number of matters relating to constitutional debate in this country that has been going on for the last year. Let me take the first topic first and that is the very serious situation that exists right now, presently in the district of Carbonear,as it relates to the announcement a few days ago by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook)-and she is leaving the House conveniently and appropriately right now.

I want that in Hansard because this Hansard is going to the mayor of Carbonear and the council for distribution. I want to emphasize that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook), as soon as I brought up the topic,has now left the House conveniently. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) announced the capital g.rcmts funding for municipalities in this Province two days ago and the district of Carbonear - not the town of Carbonear,which is the fourth largest in the Province, but the entire district of Carbonear did not receive one single cent.

But more importantly than that, and it does not really bother me politically that it did not receive one cent of funding, but more importantly than that, Mr. Speaker, it was promised. There were very straightforward, clear commitments made to the Town Council of Carbonear, to the Town Council of Victoria, and to the Town Council of Salmon Cove that indeed funding would be forthcoming this year. In fact,almost the verbatim quotation of the Minister of ~1unicipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) and her crony, the Deputy Minister Mr. Randell,when they attended a meeting in Carbonear on 7046

June 18,1981 Tape No. 2629 ah-2 MR. MOORES: November 25,1980, was that they could not see how the Cabinet would refuse funding to the town of Carbonear in view of the fact that there had not been any capital funding given to that municipality in the last three years. They could not see it they said, cannot imagine that the town would be refused capital funding.

And in 1979 the Premier of this Province,when he was looking for a candidate for the Tory party to run against me in Carbonear, went to Victoria and told the present mayor of Victoria, 'you get me a candidate to run against ~cores in Carbonear and I will give you almost anything you want in the way of capital funding seeing you are the Mayor of Viqtoria'. AN HON •. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. MOORES: It was a private meeting held here at the Confederation Building in St. John's between the Mayor of Victoria, a coupl~ of Tory hacks and the Mayor of Carbonear, right here in this building in 1979.

The promise was made, the cornrni trnent was made. Now, history, I need not inform you, says that the Deputy Mayor of Victoria,who eventually ended up as a candidate against m~,just barely got his nomination fee back. He squeaked in under the line, I think, by five or ten votes, just barely. And in his own community the Deputy Mayor was the candidate, the Mayor of Victoria was his confidante, if you like the contact, the communication between the Premier and the candidate.In their own community they were defeated five to one. Five to one in Victoria, five to one,Liberal verus PC. And that, Mr.

Speaker, is more important to me than that there was no capital funding. The political shenanigans that have gone on, the empty promises, the intimidation, the political harassment-in 1977~when the present Premier was the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs, he went to Carbonear. I can see him now sitting at the town council 7047

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2629 MR. MOORES: meeting with his feet upon the desk and his arms folded saying to t~e town of Carbonear, 'Well, boy, look, 7tl4B IB-3

June 18,1981 Tape 2630 PK - 1 MR. MOORES: really you have no alternative,you either impose the water and sewerage taxation of $144 a year or we are not going to give you any capital funding~ Now,the converse of that implicity is that if you do impose that taxation we will give you capital funding. Neither has come true. The people of Carbonear have the taxes imposed, in some cases there was an -increase of 300 per cent at that time. They had the taxation imposed but there was never any capital funding given the community. district.

And that is true of all communities in my Now,the strategy of the government is clear. More importantly ,though,it is not the strategy of the government it is the strategy of the Premier. The Premier and I have known each other now for ten years­ eleven years. In 1969 when I worked for John Crosbie- touch wood- I worked for John Crosbie as one of his area managers when he ran for the leadership against former Premier Smallwood. Peckford, the Premier, the hon. Premier was also an area manager for Crosbie down around the Green Bay area, and we both knew each other fairly well. MR.

MOORES: We never did like each other. I considered him at that time to be an opportunist, lazy, not putting as much into Crosbie's campaign as I felt he could. He probably thought the same thing about me. Well, we never did have much respect for each other on that political level. Now,the strategy of the Premier is this,that Carbonear is written off. There is no way that this government can get to the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores). It is written off. We are not going to 7049

June 18, 1981 Tape 2630 PK - 2 MR. MOORES: win it. We do not intend to win it. And the strategy is we are going to make Moores,as the Liberal member for the district,look as bad as we can by not putting any funding or any money in there. Simple strategy. It has been used - well,I dare say it has been used since the late 1790s when Sir Robert Walpole was Prime Minister of England, the first Prime Minister in a democratically elected Parliament as we know it today.

He was the man who introduced roguery, pork-barrelling, and broken promises, and ripping the public off and that was an appropriate start,I suppose - AN HON •. MEMBER: (Inaudible) roguery. MR. MOORES: - that was an appropriate start to our democratic system as we know it today.

And it has been used,that strategy 1 to-when you cannot win a district, when the member of that district is so strong and so popular as to be almost unbeatable,then you make him look as bad a~ you can by punishing the people,by not putting any funding in there and by making it appear that there is no funding going in there because the people elected an Opposition member. Well,that strategy is fine if it is going to work. Andit is not going to work in the district of Carbonear because the people over there have done nothing to deserve this kind of treatment from the government. AN HON. MEMBER: Done nothing at all.

MR. MOORES: Done nothing at all. All they did was democratically elected a member in 1975 who subsequently served them well, 7050

June 18, 1981 Tape 2631 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: well enough that in 1979 they re-elected him when the rest of this Province was virtually going P.C., and it is ironical, Mr. Speaker, that this same district,in 1972,was instrumental in bringing the P.C. regime to power. And that is the thanks they get. MR. TULK: Who was there then? MR. MOORES: Dr. Gus Rowe, who subsequently became the Minister of Health. So I am a bit disappointed, Mr. Speaker.

I thought that this good, clean, honest government,led by a good, clean, honest Premier, would be a little more intellectually elite, a little more up on an intellectual plateau to see that no democratic society can survive for lcng if you continue to punish people for voting the way their consciences dictate. And, you know, my opinion as a political pundit in this Province, as someone involved in the system and someone who at the same time can just stand outside of it and look in -·my opinion is that it is one of the key reasons why this government will go dowq to defeat in the next election.

No one said it will be an easy fight, the next election. No one said that the Liberal Party in Newfoundland is going to waltz in and take forty seats. But what we are saying on this side of the House is that there have been enough people and groups of people and individuals in this Province mistreated by this government, enough of them ignored, enough of them bullied and trampled on, and enough of them forced into making decisions that they did not want to make, that this government's mandate is in serious jeopardy.

And if the Premier of this Province had any respect at all for government and the way government 7 0 5 ·1 ...

June 18, 1981 Tape 2631 EC - 2 MR. MOORES: operates -which he does not - but if he did he would seek another mandate now on this, his second year in office. Because things have gotten so bad economically, politically and socially in this Province,that this particular government needs a new I[tandate. MR. NEARY: MR. MOORES: very clear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MOORES: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! The question, 1-lr. Speaker, is Order, please! Oh, I am sorry. I thank the hon. member.

It being 5:00P.M., I can inform the House that I have received notice of two motions for debate at 5:30P.M., when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. First notice is given by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the subject matter is sharks. Second notice is given by the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the subject matter is the C.N.

Committee's report on interprovincial ferry services and specifically, what money is to be spent on the St. Brendan's ferry service. The hon. the member for Carbonear. MR. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in concluding my remarks on this particular topic, I would like to say that I hope the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) is kind enough and responsible enough and reasonable enough - 7052

~---= ::;,.;.~- -. ·~ . June 18, 1981 Tape 2631 EC - 3 MR. LOSH: (Inaudible) . MR . MOORES: Yes - to go to Carbonear on, I think it is next Tuesday or Wednesday that the meeting has been arranged for. Both she, meaning the minister, and the Premier have been invited by telegram to that meeting . I know the Premier will not go, I mean, it is only foolishness to think that he will. Any kind of atte .ndance at a meeting such as this is below him, beneath him. Be cannot see the need for attention to the ordinary people.

But I hope the minister - and I think the minister will go to Carbonear next week and will sit down with council and say, 'Well, look, you know, we did you in, no question about that. 7u53

June 18, .1981, Tape 26-32, Page 1 - aph MR. MOORES: We did you in and we are prepared now to confess our bad treatment of you, and we are prepared to reconsider funding the town of Carbonear at least to the tune of $90,000 - SOME _HON. MEMBERS: on., oft! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Order, please! The hon. the member for Carbonear(Mr. Moores)_ has the floor. MR. MOORES: - for road work this year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in the next ten or twelve minutes · I want to - I went over the Premier's speech yesterday in this House about the constitutional matters confronting this Province and confronting this nation - and I have it here in Hansard, yesterday's Hansard. Apart from a few typographical errors ~t is a verbatim report of what the Premier said. And I am going to tell you now, Mr. Speaker, if you have ever read and seen malicious half-truths, manipulated reasoning and logic as it relates to this very serious issue in this Province - no wonder The Evening Torygram did not cover this today.

No wonder they did not mention one single word of the Premier's speech yesterday in today's ~~~~· And I know the ~eason why. The reason is very clear, because you would have to be a complete stupid ignoramus to listen to what this man was s~ying about the constitutional i.ssues in this nation. If any member on the government side would tell the truth now and get up and answer this question; what one of you have read the Charter of Ri.ghts and the constitutional proposals?-not one of you.

Not one of you have taken the time to read it and you li.sten to the Premier parrotting off some old nonsense that he contrived for one and only one reason, to confront Ottawa. And the 7054

June 18, 1981, Tape 2632, Page 2 -- apb MR. MOORES: man lias no more -· the Premier has no more deep understanding of the makeup, the cultural and political makeup of this nation tharu a drunk down on Duckwortli Street. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! Riglit on~ MR.MOORES: Mr. Speaker, it is fri.< ing. I wish hon. members in this House would read th . Hansard, yesterda y , the Premier •·s speech. And I am s glad that I took the . time. Because of other comrni trn could not stay to listen but I made · a point today. It is frightening.

I will tell you Premier of this Province bas been getting away with. o issue. I will say this much though, that he has read constitutional proposals, he has read them and he has them so carefully as to be able to manipulate own advantage. And that is · the danger. That is the danger of the Premier~s arguments on the consti tution proposals in this country, he has read them too well has manipulated them to his own ends to deceive of this ~rovince. And I make no wonder and the Prime Minister 7055 the 1

June 1'8, 1981 Tape No. 2633 RA - 1 MR. R. MOORES: with the man and want to get rid of him as Premier of this· Province,because if they do not he will destroy the fabric of this nation, he will tear it apart. The Premier does not understand. Let me take the first part of his speech yester- day when he mentions the amending formula giving Quebec and Ontario because of twenty-five per cent of their population­ let me take that one single point and tell him that this country was founded because of two peoples, two cultures, two languages.

And as a Newfoundlander, as a Canadian, if I thought that anything would jeopardize the existence and the development of those two cultures by not having them retained and protected in our constitutional proposals,then I would be concerned. MR. HOUSE: two cultures? MR. TULK: MR. R. MOORES: What does that have to do with the That is an excellent point. Then I would be concerned. Let me explain to you. Let me explain to the Minister of Health (Mr. House). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. MOORES: What the Premier of this Province is saying- Are you ·listening?

You asked the question,I will tell you because you have never read the constitutional pro­ posal, okay?_ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. MOORES: The Premier of this Province, the Premier of this Province is arguing that neither Quebec nor Ontario,because they have twenty-five per cent of the pop­ ulation of Canada,should be given a veto right in the amend­ ing formula, that all provinces should be equa~. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right! Exactly! MR. R. MOORES: Okay, Newfoundland and Alberta get 7056

June lll, 1981 Tape ~o. 2633 RA - 2 MR. R. MOORES: together. They make up five or eight per cent of the population of this country. Do not talk about Newfoundland at all because a half a million people is almost irrelevant. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. R. MOORES: federal district. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Simms): the floor. MR. R. MOORES: Oh, I do not know about that. It is only a small town. It is only a Oh, oh~ Order ·, please! Order. The hon. member for Carbonear has Now, is the Minister of Health (Mr. House) still listening? MR. HOUSE: Yes I Flrrt. MR. R. MOORES: Okay.

Now, supposing one of the great principles of Canadian nationhood like language rights comes before the Constitutional Conference - okay? - a very sound, ve~x basic right of the two cultures of this nation, and Alberta and Newfoundland decide -if they have equal vetoing rights - that they are going to get together and because Trudeau or Levesque or Davis did not go along with an energy policy they would veto one of the basic principles and rights of the two cultures in this country. What do you think would happen to the fabric of Canada? MR. HOUSE: anything. MR. R. MOORES: see. MR. HOUSE: (inaudible) MR. R.

MOORES: (Inaudible) they could veto Look, see that is how much you know, You are not going to have these provinces I am saying that when it comes to basic fundamental rights such as language and culture and peoples 7057

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2633 RA - 3 MR. R. MOORES: peoples, how can you say that 4 million French speaking Canadians do not have the right to protect their language and their culture against 500,000 Newfoundlanders? MR. HOUSE: · (Inaudible) fault. MR. R. MOORES: Has o~ culture ever been - 7058

June 18, 1981 '!'ape 2634 PK ..:. 1 MR. MOORES: - there is another one of your red herring, your stupid, unintellectual red herring. When has Newf~d's culture ever - the only time that Newfoundland's culture has been in jeopardy was when the Tor~ Alderdice, was Premier of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. TULK: MR. MOORES: Away you go! Hear, hear! (Inaudible) • Yes. I was going to say to the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) you might want,in addition to reading theconstitutional proposals,you might also want to check up on some Newfoundland history to see what governments and their political colour did the most damage to the fabric of this Province. And then the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, in the few minutes that I have , the Premier goes without being specific, without relating to one specific point 1 the Premier of this Province says that the federal government in the paranoiac way that he has been going on for the last year, the Premier of this Province says that the federal government is out to get us economically, is out to change the energy policy so that the provinces ·will have no money, that we will have to go grovelling to Ottawa for rroney for programmes and services.

And in the same breath, the same breath I tell you,I look at the Province of Alberta with a heritage fund of $7 billion while the Province of Newfoundland - MR. LUSH: It is $11 million now. MR. 'MOORES: - while the district of Carbonear and the Province of Newfoundland,we are down here wallowing in potholes - MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. MOORES: - and without hospitals and schools and institutions of higher learning 7059

June 18, 1981 Tape 2634 PK ~ 2 MR. WHITE: It should not be allowed . MR. MOORES: -and 'the Province of Alberta, that Arab's camel over in Alberta, the Premier of the Province hoarding up $7 billion in a heritage fund, and we go to Edmonton grovelling every year. Well, if it comes between grovelling to Edmonton and Lougheed and going to Ottawa and getting our fair share as Canadian citizens,do not question where I stand.

And for the Premier of this Province to get up yesterday and to use that as one of the foundation points in his arguments against constitutional amendment and proposal, I mean, not only is it ludicrous but it is criminal,that his understanding of the constitutional programme has been manipulated to that degree ~here he can get away with it. And I watched his colleagues on both sides of the House who sat and listened to that trash yesterday without interrupting. We should have taken him and fired him right out of the House, instead of sitting and listening in silence. MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible ) buttoned-down mind, the narrow-mindedness of the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the influence on him, the buttoned-down, narrow-minded bigot, the real red-roaring Tory. MR. MOORES: a minute left, I think. Premier of this Province - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOORES: you, Mr. Speaker, - Now, Mr.Speaker, I have about I want to point out to you how the Oh, oh~ Order,please~ Oh, oh! - I want to point out to 7060

.... . ···- June 18, 1981 Tape 2634 PK - 3 MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! Order. please! The hon. member only has a couple of moments left and I think he should be heard. MR. MOORES: I want to point out to you another example of how the Premier manipulates, how he gives 7061

June 18, 1981 Tape No. 2635 IB-1 MR. MOORES: uninformed members of· this House - and I do not care what side they are on - little tidbits of information to make it appear that he knows what he is talking about. He referred yesterday to the image of Canada as presented by the Prime Minister, Trudeau, in Federalism And The French Canadian. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I went horne last night, I went down to the library at the University and I got that book and I read it and it is one of the most eloquent, most ~refound understanding of Canada and the two cultures, particularly the French culture in this nation,that you would ever want to read. And it was presented in this House yesterday by the Premier of this Province as if it was some kind of coup, some kind of fabrication by the Prime Minister when he was a private citizen to overthrow Canada, to change the nation and take away rights from people.

I say to the Premier of Newfoundland that it is a sorrowful thing when you take a fine piece of literature like that, a fine understandingofCanada,and you twist . it and warp it because the person who wrote