VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:oo p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5, 1980 NO. 4

March 5,1980 The House met at 3.00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms}: ·rape No. 104 AH-1 Order, please! I am sure han. members would like to welcome to the galleries today several groups of students and teachers from the district of Fortune­ Hermitage, from the Victoria High School in Gaultois, the Seal Cove Intergrated School in Seal Cove and the John Watkins Central High School in Hermitage. welcome! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! sTATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: ?REMIER PECKFORD: The han. the Premier . Mr.

Speaker, I have distributed - I think it is distributed-a statement that I want to give now and I want to apologize. When the copies were being taken off some of the back-up information was not copied to go with each statement so it will be copied momentarily so that some of the back-up information will be a part of it. Mr. Speaker, I wish to respond to statements ~ade by the Auditor General in his report fer the financial year ending the 31st of March 1979. Various ministers will over the next number of days be dealing with the matters which are relevant to their departments raised by the Auditor General.

Today, tomorrow,Thursday, and hopefully by Friday we can have the responses to all the comments made by the Auditor General on the various departments clearly on the table of the House. Today I want to deal specifically with items number 27 and 28 an page 21 entitled Executive Council. First, Mr. Speaker, let me say I was aware that both items mentioned were under close examination by the Auditor General. Obviously I could not take any action until his report was 291

March 5,1980 Tape No. 104 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD : tabled in this House,although on a number of occasions I could add that I thought perhaps I should but then 1 on reflection,I did not know what the final version of the Auditor General's Report would be 1 so then I thought it better to wait until the report became public and then to take what action I could after that. 292

:-larch 5, 1980 Tape lOS EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, I could not take any action until his report was tabled in this House. Now, however, action can be taken. Second, let !lie say I believe th.e Auditor General is correct in his judgement on both expenditures: Public funds were used to pay for activities which turned out to be political rather than governmental.

Item 27 - this expenditure of $56,000 '"'as paid to Devine Advertising Systems Limited after approval had been given by Cabinet and Treasury Board 1and I shall very soon have copies of the Treasury Board and the Cabinet Minute L"'l Council and the contract and the presentation of a memorandum to Executive Council which will sort of clear up the legitimacy or otherwise of the approvals when ~~ey were given. Fifty-six ~~ousand dollars was paid to Devine Advertising Systems Limi~ed after approval had been given by Cabinet and Treasury Board.

In addition 1the contract was signed between Devine Advertising Systems ~imited and the government. However, what was approved as a legitimate government expense consistent wi~~ approval given by Treasury Board and Cabinet 1 proved not to be what was received. In fact, the work performed waS political, not governmental. It can be argued, I guess, that parts of the work done by this company was in 'the gray area' and ~~at parts of the work therefore was more governmental than political.

However, overall, my judgement - and I do not have all the reports that were submitted by that company - is that the work was political. There is no question about ~~at. There are a nUirber of parts of the overall that might be in the gray area, but overall there is no question that it was political. Consequently I intend to do all in my power to have this expenditure recovered. And we can later, Mr. Speaker, get on to the various alternatives t.'lat are open to government so to do. Item 28 - once again, this expenditure was political and improper.

McConnell Advertising was paid for work at a P.C. convention. one of my first acts on assuming t.-_,e Premiership was to examine ~~e payments to McConnell Advertising. !'.s a result, a freeze was 293

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 106 so - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: placed on further payments that the company said the government owed until additional justification was supplied,and there are still outstanding claims that have not been paid. At the present moment McConnell. Advertising has claims outstanding whiCh government has not paid. It is my intention to have government recover the $20,885 paid to McConnell on this item. This perhaps can be done through monies now owing to the company. In any case , everything will be done to ensure that the Public Treasury and the people of Newfoundland recover this loss.

In addition to these actions, Mr. Speaker, I hll'll'e today written the Chairman.. and I would imagine the Chairman has the letter now and members of the Public Accounts Committee I have written the Chairman and the melllhers of the Public Acanmts Co11111ittee requesting that the Committee give the highest priority to these items when the Committee meets on this Report. Mr. Speaker, I want to assure this bon. House, as I did last session, that this administration is committed to open and honest government.

Now I regret, even thought it is not part of the statement, that I had to make this statement today obviously because it affects a previous time and perhaps other individuals 1 but since I have taken over I have tried 1and all of the ministers have , and I think we can be proven to be right on that, that this administration is committed to open and honest government, . ;.o this end I am totally and absolutely committed,and I table copies of the Order in Council issued and I am sorry that the copies were not given out ; it was my fault because I had it put on another part of my desk and when the copies were done during dinner they did not realize that this was suppose to be part of it - it is 1·ti.mite in Council 791-' 78 1 which you can get a copy of h'""" the Table. 294

~ch 5, 1980 Tape No. 106 SD - 2 PREMn:R PECKFORD: Memorandum to Executive Council by the then President of Treasury Boa%d requestinq the contract but in terms and conditions that were leqitimate and qovernmental that the reports that came in were not - and a copy of the contract as a part of the CC~U~pany. I do not know if there is any other information riqht now that I can provide but I will provide any and all information that I can scrounqe to the Public Accounts Co-ittee and to anybody else who wants to see it. SOME HON. MEMBEl!S : MR. SPE,UER (Siulms): MR. Il. JAMIESON: '!'hank you ,Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I want: to borrow a phrase from the President of the Privy Council~ 'This is a sad day for Newfaundland.' He::e we have a sitnation where we ~ve a government whic::h bas repeatedly said that it is, and aqain it is said in the statement today, CCIIIIIIittep to o.pen and honest qqvernment. I do not wish to c::ast any aspersions upon the honesty and the inteqrity of the Pruder and his 295

:.larch 5, 1980 Tape No. 107 EL - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: colleagues in making such a state- ment, but, Mr. Speaker, this is a very deplorable revelation and one cannot help but ask whether it would have seen the light of day un­ der the committment to open an honest government, if in fact it had not been disclosed in the Auditor General's Report. That, I think, is one of the fund~_ental questions which really has to be answered.

The Premier has indicated, and I think with some justice, that he was awaiting the ac~ual wording,but I believe there will be other statements this day which will indicate that on other mat~ers, which the Auditor General reported upon yester­ day and which under normal and approved practice he had already con­ vey~d to the ~apartment's concerned actions were, in fact, initiated before the report came out. I am anticipating what I expect will be a statement and the hon.

Premier has said that over the next days there will be indications as to what actions have been started or are being contemplated with regard to various comments of the Auditor General. But, Mr. Speaker, I do not be­ lieve that that is the important issue here.

It seems to me that we have, in this statement by the Premier, another indication of the de­ termination of this administration to put as much distance as it poss­ ibly can from its predecessor,and to suggest that in some way or other a curtain rang down following thai~ leadership convention and that all previous actions and•all previous conduct were separate from and dis­ tinct from what has started with the assumption of leadership by the hon. the P~emier. Mr.

Speaker, one can at least admire the Premier's candor in indicating that this whole issue was one which was, in fact, approved by the Cabinet of ~hich, in fact, he was a mem­ ber. I am not privy to whether he was a member of Treasury Board at the time or not - PREMIER PECKFORD: Remembering always that when the accomp~ying documentation is copied- now you are misleading- because the accompanying documentation bears no relevance to the subsequent re- ports that came in under that au~,orization. ~- D. JAMIESON: Then I will reserve any such criti- cism until such time as we have seen the documentation.

In fairness to me, Mr. Speaker, I think it ought to be pointed out that I am opera- ting on the basis of the statement which the Premier himself made in the House and which we have all heard him speak. Ana the truth of the matter 296

March 5, 1~80 Tape No. 107 EL - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: is that indeed it was a governmental decision and therefore no matter how much it may now be a question of saying we are going to recover the funds or it was inappropriate or it was an improper kind of·action 1 297

1-1arch 15, 1980 Tape No. 108 NM - 1 MR. JAMIESON: the truth of the matter is that it did in fact take place not once but twice. Now, Mr. Speaker, one thing which is clear,apart from the now getting to be quite desperate efforts by the government to separate itself from the predecessor administration,is the fact also that the government is seeking,as it were, to cut these things off at the pass by making open declarations as soon as the Auditor General's Report is presented and then gratuitously saying that we are asking the Public Accounts Committee to investigate.

What else is the Public Accounts Committee set up for? And has anybody got any reasonable expectation that they would not in fact automatically put this kind of issue at the very top of their examination?

I repeat therefore, ~- Speaker, first of all that the Public Accounts Committee will,I have no doubt, members on both sides will want to deal with this issue, but I also want to make it perfectly clear that this party, the Opposition, feels no constraint as a result of this statement today from pursuin~ this matter in the normal way through Question Period and in any other appropriate manner that is open to us, and that if in any sense it is anticipated that this will put it on the shelf,as it were,until such time as the Public Accounts Committee gets to deal with it,then that is a false assumption and we intend to pursue this matter very vigorously.

I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that it is a sad day because once again we have evidence of why it is that the public of this Province has,apparently,a reasonable and legitimate concern for having a kind of disregard and disrespect for all politicians and this is the very kind of thing which the Premier has on repeated occasions said he wants to avoid. It is the very thing which we on this side have been seeking,through our co-operation,to bring about.

But it is a most blatant form on the surface at least-~nd when I get the other documentation if there is anything to the contrary I will be more than happy to say so - but it is the most blatant form of 298

~!arch 15, 1980 Tape No. lOS NM- 2 MR. JAMIESON: political patrol}age and political manoeuvering and the utilization 1by the Premier's own admission, of public funds for political purposes. And this t think is something which the Public Accounts Committee will certainly wish to examine, but I also emphasize again that we will wish on this side to pursue through the various avenues that are open to us. SO~!E BON. )!EMBE.!lS: s:ear, hear! 299 -t

March 5,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 109 AH-1 The hon. ~inister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I have,I must sa~ a somewhat dull and technical-because it deals largely with accounting procedures but, be that as it may - statement with respect to the Auditor General's criticism of certain practices within the area of responsibility of the Department of Justice. The first heading deals with the Auditor General's Report under the heading of Assets and Liabilities,pages 7 and 8 in his report, notes 13 and 14.

A recent meeting between senior officials of this department and senior officials of the department of the Auditor General discussed the weaknesses now identified in the report . The Auditor General's staff advised of a number of measures that have already been taken to remedy the deficiencies and the accounting practices and it was acknowledged that substantial progress ~ad been made in recent years.

It was iecognized that a substantial revision of court accounting and administrative procedures ' was required because of the tremendous increase over the years in court activity and this had not been accompanied by corresponding increase in human and physical resources. Consequently many current systems are outdated and are presently under review. Two positive measures have been taken to correct the deficiencies in the existing system.

A new accounting system for the provincial court has ~een designed in collaboration with the Auditor General and the Internal Audit Division of the Department of Finance , and 1 secondly, a pilot project at one provincial court 1 and that is at Holyrood,shows the system to be practical and one that embraces acceptable accounting practices. The operation of the Traffic Court in St. John's has been changed ~rom a manual to an automated operation which it is hoped will greatly 300

:-larch 5,1980 Tape No. 109 AH-2 ~R. OT TENHEHIER: improve efficiency and capacity and,it is hoped 1will satisfy the concerns of both the Department of Justice and of the Audi:or General. The Auditor General has comments also under the heading current account revenue, page ~8 in his report, noee 24.

And there I wish eo inform bon. memb ers that the Oepart~ent of ?inance, Central Cashier's Office are presently installing what is descriped here as a sophisticated cash register - so I am glad to see my colleague has sophiseicated cash registers -for the joi nt use of the ~egistry of Deeds, Companies and Secuzities and the Vit:al Staeistics Division of t:he Department of aealth. The Registry of Deeds, Companies and Securities has been instructed to prepare written procedures for the receipt and deposit of revenue and to devise a syst:em for the joint use of the cash register.

There is every ~ndication and hope t:hat the system can be developed an~ will remove the obJections raised by the Audit:or General. The Aud~tor General also has commenes an page 33, note 45 . In this respect the accounting deficiencies in the Registry of Sup=P.me Coart Accounts result:s from a substantial increase ~n t:he number and value of estates admin~s~ered by the registrar, an increase not matched by a corresponding increase in human and physical resources. Positive s~eps have been taken to bring t~e accounts co a currenc cond~t:ion by the appointment of an accountant.

The Auditor General will be asked to resume his audit at the earliest opportunicy. And finally,on page 34 the Auditor General has comments under note 46 301

March 5, 1980 Tape llO EC - l MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: pertaining to the department and there many of the deficiencies identified by the Auditor General in the provincial. court accounting system have, in our opinion, been remedied by the introduction of an interim accounting system which will remain in effect until a completely new system which is currently being tested as a pilot project at Holyrood provincial court has been introduced to all provincial courts. The new system is expected to be acceptable to the Auditor General. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. L. THOMS: 'lhe hen. the member for Grand Bank. Mr.

Speaker, I am quite sure this is an oversight on the part of the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer). Usually, especially in ones as technical as this - I notice the Premier passed one out, but - MR. G. QTTENHEIMER: I sent the non. gentleman a copy.ln l:'"c"'' Q,..,. for the Leader of the Opposition and one for the hen. member. MR. L. THOMS: Well~Sir, it is not here.You did not bring one to me personal.ly and it is not on my desk. MR. G. OTTENBEIMER: It was placed on the hen. gentle- man's desk. MR. L. THOMS: Well, then, somebody took it. It is not on my desk. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. L. THOMS: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, it is a fairly technical report. The Report of the Auditor General was passed out, I believe, yesterday afternoon. I have had an opportunity to look through it briefly. I must say that some of the things contained in there 1 particularly in connection with the Registry of the Suprene Court and with the Registry of Deeds - there is something like $2 million, I believe, in fees going through the Registry of Deeds.

And, you know, the thing that scares me is t.'1.e opportunity that is there because of an inadequate system of accounting, well, for somebody to dip into the till. I mean, there is that - because there are no proper provisions for giving receipts. And receipts t.~at 302

March 5 , l9SO Tape ll O EC - 2 ~. L. THOMS~ ~hould be voided, I think, was mentioned in there, instead of just rubbing ot:t and using the ~ receipts. All t;.hese things lead to a situation where things that should not h~pen can happen. I believe , if I reJ!Ielllbe~ correctly , under the ~qis'l;%y of the Supreme Court, there haS llQt been an audit done for sor.1ethinq like - well, since 1975, which is a long tilDe. I can recal.l rsty days with the Board of Regents of the University. I do llQt know if · it still comes under the Auditor General or not, I know it 303

~arch 5, 1980 Tape No. lll NM - l ~. THOMS: did, but they were running some three years behind all the time, and the Auditor General just does not have the staff to keep up with it. And I think this is one of the problems we see in this report and why we get such a report as this. In the final analysis,of course, the university went out and got permission to hire their own accountants, their own auditors so that they could have up-to-date accounts.

When I get the statement made by the minister I will certainly peruse it more carefully and I could probably have a private word on any of the matters contained therein. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : DR. J. COLLINS: me. MR. SPEAKER: DR. J. COLLINS: The hen. Minister of Finance. Confession is good for the soul. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I think you have recognized The hen. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a brief statement concerning certain paragraphs ~elating directly to my department which were included in the report the Auditor General tabled yesterday.

I do this knowing that the House would want to have as rapid a response as possible to the Auditor General's Re~ort and the people of this Province also. I do regret that I do not at this moment have copies to give the hen. members opposite. I just had an opportunity to read this and review it immediately before coming to the House 1and indeed I was a moment or so late, but as soon as I have read the report I will have copies made and circulated. Paragraph 20, Mining and Mineral Rights Tax With respect to the non-payment of royalties,based on the escalation

section of the statute,the Departments of Finance and Justice are and have been taking appropriate action through the courts to recover these amounts. I understand that letigation is still in progress. The matter of establishing the legal liability of the company for tax has been 304

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 111 NH - 2 DR. 3. COLLINS: the subject of protracted correspondence and discussion amongst officials of the Department of Finance, Justice and Mines and Energy. s-everal submissions by the colliPany • s legal representatives were considered and referred to our legal advis=s in Justice for comment. While the Department of Finance was eventually advised that the tax was payable ,it was acknowledged by Justice officials that it "WOuld be exceedingly difficult to determine the amount of such tax. ':'o date we have not been able to determine the amount,if any 1 of tax collectable.

The examination of the records of the company concerned is continuing. Paragraph 21, Forest Management Tax. The Department of Finance, based on the information available to it, has issued assessments in all cases where the holders of parcels of forest lands or cutting rights 305

March 5, 1980 Tape No.ll2 EL - 1 DR. J. COLLINS : thereon have been identified. If the assessments are not paid in the prescribed time limit, the enforcement provisions of the act will be invoked and the lands in question will be subject to seizure. The abscence of a compulsory land registry system has seriously impeded the progress and identification of land holders. The Department of Finance has taken all actions open to it to collect the taxes due. Paragraph 22 - Retail Sales Tax - the last of the 17 new positions in the taxation division was filled in mid-February 1980.

The effects of the addition of these new en­ forcement posts on the arrears situation has not yet been fully appar­ ent,but the statistics received from the taxation division covering the month of December 1979 indicated a net decline in arrears of approx­ imately two hundred thousand dollars. The total retail sales tax arrears at January 30, 1980, including interests and penalties, amounted to some $11.2 million~ It should be noted that we have request­ ed Treasury Board for authority to write off some $2.2 million of arrears on retail sales tax which are considered to be un-collectable.

These arrears were owed, in most cases, by companies which had become bankrupt and had no residual assets. We have halted the escalation of re­ tail sales tax arrears and have, as I indicated earlier, acheived a modest reduction in the last month. In order that the arrears are reviewed in a better perspective, I would like to inform the House that the revenues from retail sales taxes for the eleven months ending on 29th of February, 1980 totalled $202,300,000.00.

Our collection off­ icers collected a total of $6,017,000.00 of retail sales tax arrears foi the ten months to 31st of January, 1980 and for the same period our tax auditors raised assessments of some $9,850,000.00. 306

March 5, 1980 Tape no. 112 EL - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: Paragraph 29 - Audit of the General Service Payroll System - In late 1977 the Department of Finance instruct­ ed two professional accountants on its staff to investigate payroll procedures. Their report was submitted early in 1978 and a copy was forwarded to the Auditor General. Based on that report, the Department of Finance follllUlated certain procedures to correct some of its inter­ nal control. weaknesses which the team had discovered and at the same time to Provide gove:rnment with a standardized payroll system • 307

March 5, 1980 Tape 113 EC - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: At about the same time, the Auditor General informed us that it was his intention to complete a full review of the pay system of government and had engaged a consultant to participate in the review. Because of the Auditor General's announced intention to review the payroll system, the department decided to postpone the implementation of the procedures recommended by its staff accountants pending the receipt of the findings of the Auditor General's review.

When these findings were communicated to us, we again reviewed our own staff recommendations and concluded that if we proceeded to implement ~~em, most of the weaknesses indicated in the Auditor General's review would be eliminated. TO put into place the recommended new procedures required,amongst other things, that new posts had to be created and the payroll division reorganized. The new positions must then be classified and finally fille~ through the Public Service Commission. · dll these things take considerable time to process and we nave reached the stage when recruitment is about to commence.

We hope to be able to implement the proposed changes in procedures earl7 in the fiscal year 1980 - 1981. I now table this report. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! If I might, before I recognize the hen. the Leader of ::he Opposition, I think I should point out to hon. members that the Standing Orders, 53.1(4) states that on Wednesdays the question period shall commence not later than 3:30 p.m. Is there leave to proceed? SOME RON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. JAMIESON: By leave. By leave. The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, we can begin the Question Period because in view of the absence of any copies for us over here, it is impossible to comment upon such a complex statement. SOME HON. !1EMBERS: Hear, hear! 308

:~arc h ~ 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) ~IR. D. JA.lo!IESON: the hon. the Premier. Tape 113 EC- - 2 ORAL QU i:..ST ION S The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House when the report of the Publi~ Otilities C6mmission with regard to the proposed rate increase .s as recommended by them as, I believe, som .ething of the order of 6 per cent is going to be considered, as I believe it must be, by Cabinet, and will he, in ligh -t of the almost unanimous desire on the part of consumers to forego or not to have to undertake this, another increase in the cost of living, will the government reject the recommendation of the Public Utilities Board? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, I cannot respond one way·or the other definitively on whether the government will reject or approve the increas~ sought "that is a matter which w.ill take discussion by Cabinet. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) ju~t informed me that there is a submission from~ the power corporation and from the Department of Energy on its way to me now and within the next seven days we will,of course,discuss and d-ebate the pro • s and con • s of the recommendations that the Public Util~ties Board have made, and then obviously inform this bon. House of our decision.

So 1 number one 1 within a week to ten days we will have that report before Cabinet and the decision made. Secondly, whether we will reject or approve 309

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 114 so - 1 PREMIER PECKFORO: that recommendation will remain unknown to any of us until such time as Cabinet has fully dealt with the recommendations and the repercussions that flow therefrom. MR. D; .JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER· (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON : In view of the Premier's answer, for which I thank him, wauld he also, however 1 indicate 1 if he is in possession of the information-and perhaps the Minister of }fines and Energy (Mr. L.

Barry) might be the more appropriate one; I have not: particular preference -what the deadline is, given the fact the bills must be made out and the process of assessing literally, I suppose, more than 100,000 households must bedone?What is the point at which the word must come down from on high as to whether this government is going to be concerned for the consumess or whether it is going to allow the increase to go through! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. lm. L. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, under the Electrical Power Control Act 1 Cabinet's decision must be made within fifteen days or else the report of the Public Utilities Board applies. ."!R. 0. JAMIESON : ."!R. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. io!R. D. JAMIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker • A supplementary, the hon. the Fifteen days of its receipt by, presumably 1the appropriate minister, in this case the Minister of Mines and Energy? ;m. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and 3nergy. 31 0

:-!arch 5, 1980 Tape No. 114 SD - 2 MR. L. BARRY: There is some ambiguity in the legislation as to whether it is receipt by the minister or actual receipt by Cabinet. My objective is to have it within fifteen days of its receipt by me. I!!R. D. JAMIESON : !!R· SPEAKER (Simms): the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon: I am sure that the hon. minister must know the timetable, Given the fact that the billing procedures have to start 1 and presumably this too is one of his new sophisticated calculators or whatever it was the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) referred to, so there must be a deadline apart altogether from the legal one,so that coes the minister know at what point-if the bills are to go cut under their old form or their new form, what is the deadline under which he is functioning? MR. SPUKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I have had ~o indication from the Hydro Corporation that if the decision of Cabinet is made within the fifteen days set out in the Act that there will be any problem from their point of view. MR. SPEAKER: ~. S. NEARY : The hen. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer), Sir.

In view of the startling revelations in the Auditor General's R!!port just tabled in the House yesterday, and in view of the fllc:t that that is not the first time that these matters were raised in this Rouse by members on the Opposition benches, a::1d in view of the fact that the government set up smoke screens and diversionary tactics t0 distract from these matters when they were raised in this House last session and the session before, would the Minister of Justice indicate to the House what advL::e ,if any, he has given his colleagues in 311

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 114 SD - 3 MR. S. NEARY: connection with the matter that was the subject of a Ministerial Statement by the Premier in the House today? . Jof.R. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. G. O'l"l'ENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice • Mr. Speaker, bearing in mind obviously that this material came officially to attention yesterday afternoon, I have instructed officials of the Department of Justice to consult with appropriate officials in the Department of Finance and to advise upon what means, what legal means there are to recuperate the money in question.

Now, the outcome of that obviously I do not know; that is being looked into. MR. S. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker , as the hon. gentlell)an knows and anybody with an ounce of common sense in this House knows 1 there is a possibility of criminal charges being laid in this particular case.~ :'If it was done in private business or industry or outside of this House,or even inside of the House 1 it would be considered to be fraudulent.

I have here in front of me the memorandum that was made to Cabinet and,as the Premier indicated in his Ministerial Statement,the money was not used for the purpose for which it was asked for and approved for by Cabinet and that, in my opinion, Mr. Speaker.- MR. SPEA!tER: Order, please! 'rhe hon. member has a question? I direct him to ask it. MR. S. NEARY: - is fraudulent and I ask ~~e hon. Minister of Justice if he will ask either his officials in the Department of Justice or the RCMP Commercial Crime and Fraud Squad to - and this is not over-reacting; this has 31 2

March 5, 1980 Tape No.ll4 so - 4 MR. S. NEARY : been goinq on too lonq and has been qotten away with too lonq, - would he ask to ~ve a police investigation or set up a eo-ission of Inquiry under the Public Inquiri~ ~ to have this whole lllilt1:er investigated? MR. SPElUCER (Si.mms): The hon. Minister of Justice. 313

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 115 NM - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated 1 to put the matters into perspective,that this material came to the attention of the House and myself yesteday and since then I have instructed officials of the Department of Justice to discuss with, and to consult with officials of the Department of Finance to recommend and to identify what measures are available with respect to recouperating the money.

The information now available, that is, the information available to me1 is the same as the information available to all hon. members and that is on page twenty-one in the Report of the Auditor General. That information-one does not know what if any additional information may become available - but on that information I am not aware that there are any grounds for criminal prosecution or police investigation. I am not and nobody can 1 because nobody knows what additional information may or may not become available.

The information as it is now suggests the possibility - I cer~ainly do not wish to prejudge, it would ~e quite improper, you know -the possibility that there is a breach of the Finance Administration Act, which is quite separate. But the information I now have suggests that that may or may not be the case. But there is no - the information available to me at this time does not suggest reasonable, probable grounds for action within the criminal area. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we cannot have two sets of standards in this Province. People have been charged with fraud for less than we see here before us, much less. And what I am asking the minister - I accept the Premier's ministerial statement, it was very good.

It is a good political manoeuver and a good political tactic, but in my opinion this whole matter should be investigated to see if criminal charges should be laid and I am asking the Minister of Justice in all fairness to the people of this Province, and for the protection of the public treasury, that he ask -maybe no charges will be laid bu~ that he ask for an investigation to look into the possibility, to see if criminal charges should 31 4

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 11 5 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: be laid in this particular matter and if not we will just let the matter rest. But I do not think it should just be stopped at the Premier handing it over to the Public Accounts Committee. They are going to do their job anyway. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. member ,I believe,has a question'? I would direct him to ask the question. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, you are allowed a

preamble, are you not? MR. SPEAKER: You are not allowed to express opinions according to the Standing Orders. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, I am asking the han.

Minister of Justice, in all fairness to the people of this Province an~ as Attorney General, not as Minister of Justice, as Attorney General and Mini .ster of Justi .ce- or Minister of Justice rather, not as Attorney General; because it is as Attorney General!I think 1the minister gives advice to the Cabinet; as Minister of Justice he enforces the adtninistration of ju::;tice in this Province - in all fairnes::; to the people of this Province and for the protection of the public treasury, will the hen. gentleman undertake to launch an investigation, a police investigation into this whole sad affair to see if criminal charges should be laid?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, there may be a matt~ of semantics or a difference of language, I am not sure. What I did say was that the information I now have does not give me reasonable and probable grounds to order a police investigation. I am aware of the fact that there may well be other information, or there may not be other information, but the police investigation comes when there is reasonable, probable grounds to suspect a breach of the Criminal Code, not of any law. There are other remedies for other things. MR. NEARY: What is fraud? 31 5

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 115 N~1 - 3 MR. ~L'IER : It is the Department of Finance and the Comptroller General who is responsible for actions under breach of the .Financial Administration Act. I am not saying there will not be a police investigation, I am not saying there will be a police in­ vestigation, what I am saying is that thes e decisions have to be - MR. NEARY: You have to order it. :'!R. OTTENHE~ Now please, the hon . gentleman MR. SPSA.'<ER (Simms) : Order, please! ~. O'!"!'ENHEIMER: It is a fairly complex matter 316

--------- --- .. March 5, 1980, Tape 116, Page 1 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: and it is easy to be misunderstood in it. A judgement one makes in that respect is based on the knowledge one has. The knowledge that I have now, as of this moment, does not suggest a police investigation. The knowledge I may have at a different time, I will have to act within that context. I can only speak with respect to the knowledge that I have now. It would be quite wrong to make a judgement anticipated on know1edge which might or might not become available, which might or might not exist. But the knowledge I have now - MR.

NEARY: knowledge? How do you get the MR. OTTENHEIMER: - does not provide reasonable and probably grounds for a police enquiry. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. I inidcated a final supplementary - unless the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) wishes to yield to a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer given by the hon. gentleman and I wish to debate .the matter tomorrow afternoon during the late show. MR. SPEAKER: Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: The hon. the member for Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Lands and Forests and it arises from the Report of the Auditor General with regard to the non­ collection of the forest management tax. My first question, Mr. Speaker; the Forest Land Management Tax was proclaimed in 1974 and it goes, I think, from the sublime to the ridiculous, or vice versa. The Auditor General has to report to this 31 7

March 5, 1980, Tape 116, Page 2 -- apb ~.R. FLIGHT: House that in 1979 certain companies, certain holders of land exceeding 300 acres were not identified. Some were identified in 1979. In the previous five years, afte·r the proclaiming of the legislation, there were still unidentified owners. So would the minister indicate to the House whether or not all the holders of land in excess of 300 acres have now been identified? MR. SPEAKER(Simrns): The hon. the Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I will be making a full ministerial statement tomorrow on the contents of the Auditor General's Report. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question. The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in the Auditor General's Report it is also indicated that df the at least eleven holders of these in excess of 300 acre lots, four or five have specifically ignored any request from the Department of Finance, or Forestry or whatever department is responsible, to pay the assessments that were applied against them under this legislation.

Now the Minister of Finance (Dr. collins), in his ministerial statement, said that if the assessments are not paid within a prescribed period of time certain action - enforcement provisions of the Act - will be taken. Would the minister indicate what the prescribed period of time is since this legislation has been in effect for five years? The prescribed limit of .time, is it in ~xcess of five years or what is, indeed, the prescribed limit of time? And will the minister indicate to the House now what he intends to do ahout the companies which are ignoring the legislation. these holders of excess property over 318

March 5, 1980, Tape 116, Page 3 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: 300 acres - what is the prescribed length of time, and what does the minister intend to do about collecting the arrears accrued to this Province in the past five years? MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): The hon. the Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the original question, we will have a full ministerial statement tomorrow answering those questions which the member has just asked. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary.

The han. the member for Windsor- Buchans,followed by the hon. the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White). MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, as the minister knows, that Land Management Act was enacted in this Province more to guarantee good forest management of the lands held by the major paper companies and other holders than it was for the purpose of producing revenue for the Province.

I want to ask the minister if,in his opinion, the two paper companies in particular, where it is a known fact they are holding land, sitting on lands that have been exempt, that the Province has exempted from tax under that Land Management Act- and that would indicate that the Department of Forestry believes that the land management, and forest management, as practiced by those paper companies is, indeed, perfect, since if it were not there would have to be tax paid- isthe minister satisfied that the Land Management Tax, as practiced by these various paper companies in this Province, or other holders of large tracts of land, is indeed perfect to a point that no Land Management Taxes should be paid on those holdings? 319

March 5 , 19 SO Tape 117 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the ~tinister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POv<ER: Mr. Speaker, again, as I indicated in response to the first and second questions, tomorrow there will be a full Ministerial Statement discussing all aspects of collection of and non-collection of taxes as it relates to the Land Management Act and Tax Act , , MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. WHITE : Thac will be made tom:>rrow. The han. the member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, my question is for t.';e Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry).

I wonder if the minister could tell the House what security arrangements or other arrangements are made with oil drilling companies to ensure that details of findings or discoveries are kept as close to the gove~~ent as possible and that the results are not made known outside of Newfoundland before ~~ey are made known here? MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. L. BARIU': The situation. The hon. the Minister of Mines and That is a good question, Mr.

Speaker. not just with respect to oil companies but with respect to mining companies or any resource company that spends considerable amounts of'money on obtaining information about provincial resources, is ~~at this information becomes proprietary information,or property of ~~e companies involved,subject to the laws of this Province, which means that we cannot, for example, distribute the information freely to others without following our regulations and our laws or wi~~out the agreement of the companies concerned.

Any release of information, therefore, is usually co-ordinated and released at the same time by ~s, as by the oil companies - or for mining companies, the same procedure would apply. However, Mr. Speaker, these are large organizations. There are a considerable number of individuals within those organizations who end up with information the same as government ends ~p with information concernin~ ~~e exploration that is going on offshore. 320

March 5 , 19 80 Tape 117 EC - 2 MR. L. BAruc!: Quite frankly, I have been concerned that there have been leaks of infonnation, and this, Mr. Speaker, I can see - my concern is caused by the fact that before we are authorized or have reached agreement with the companies to have information released to the general public, you can see a day or two days before the announcement the stock market beginning to react or beginning to move. So, Mr.

Speaker, we believe we have succeeded in keeping a very tight and confidential control of information within the government, and we have very few people who have access to the information. I do not believe that there have been leaks from government employees or anybody within the provincial government, but I have had concerns that there have been leaks from areas where the information has gone. And the information does not just go to one company; there is a consortium of companies, as you know, operating out there. It is unfortunate, Mr. Sp~aker.

It, I think, justifies the earlier statement I made that anybody who is not familiar . with the stock market should be very cautious in getting involved 1 because the ordinary individual does not always know what is going on behind the scenes.

If I can get any evidence that there is direct, deliberate or even negligent release of information in an improper manner, I will be making that information known to the regulatory agencies such as those regulating the Toronto Stock Exchange, the Vancouver Stock Exchange, the Montreal Stock Exchange, the New York Stock Exchange 1 and it is from those bodies that then the penal ties will flow and the practices and 321

March 5,1980 Tape No. 118 AK-1 MR. BARRY: procedures will be brought into effect to see that that type of thing does not happen in the future. But if the han. member can give me any evidence that there is any such deliberate or negligent precipitous release of information I will act on it immediately. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, the reason I asked the question was because it has become obvious to a lot of investors in Newfoundland who have told me that the stack market starts to go, futures are being bought up days and days before the government makes it announcement here in Newfoundland,which leaves the Newfoundland investor again on the tail end of the stick. We do not even have the oil yet and yet Newfoundland is already loosing out because of this situation.

Could the minister tell the Ho'use if there is any other way that he can make the announcement faster or leak it from his department or do something that would give Newfoundlanders a fair chance at this game? MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. BARRY: The han. Minister of Mines and Mr. Speaker, it has been put to me before that if this sort of thing is going to go on then the leaks should come from us so that people in this Province can take advantage of them before they can take advantage of leaks otherwise. MR. NEARY: Why do you not do like Frank use to do (inaudible) MR.

BARRY: I do not think that we can act in that type of irresponsible manner. We have to respect the confidentiality of information. I might say that from what I have been hearing the local investors have not been any slower to get access to some of these leaks than your non-local 322

~1 ar ch S ,1980 l1R . BARRY: MR . \~BITE : Newfoundland though. MR . BARRY: Tape No. 11 8 AH-2 invesc ors . They are not gettin g th em from They aze getting them from Calgary. That is right. As far as I know it is riot coming from Newfoundland. There are sources on the Mainland that they are plugged into. I regret it, but that is the situation. The stock market regulations are there. The use of insider information to promote your own stock or to m~ke mone ·y behind the scenes is illegal.

Any corporate official• caught engaging in such an activity are subject to severe penaltr and if we can find out that this is in fact happening we will take severe ~ction to stop it. MR. Sl'EAKER (Sill\mS): The han. member for Fogo. HR . '!OL:<: Mr. Spe aker, my quescion is for the l1inister of Social Services an d it concerns che Paddon Memorial eome in eappy Valley, Goo se Bay .

It is :ny un ders ca ndi ng thac a si~uacion has developed in Happy Valley whereby the !)irec to r of NUI$ing and che rest oj: the nurs ing staff have submicced their resignations due co a conflict between t~e administra cor and the nurs ing staff at Patton Memorial :!.orne. r am wonder ing if che :ninister could bring us up to date on that particular situation in Happy Va lley? :-!R. SPEAKER : The hon . Minister of Social Services. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Ob, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Orde r, ple<~se! The hon. Minister of Social Se rvices. MR. HICKEY: ~!z .

Speaker, I can co nfirm that there is a problem in flappy Valley Senior Citizens' Home . The Director of Nursing has res ig ned. The three staff nurses ! am not sure chac chey have resigned, they have i ndica~ed 323

~larch 5 , 1980 Tape No . 118 A.H - 3 MR. !HCKEY: a resignation in support of ~;h -e Director . Ther• are thirty-two residents in thac home, two receiving nursing care,and tho se two have already , as! understand i!: ,been moved to the hospital. Medica t ions are being dispensed by the public he al th nurse. The dispute is between the nursing sta ff and management. We do not have complete d.etails but it cente rs around the qu es tion of whether the institution should be run on a medical ~asis wholly and solely or whet~er it should be run on a basis of social need .

I just want to state that the position of this government with regard to senior citizens in such institutions is that the social needs should certainly be filled, the medical needs should be filled 1 but that people in such institutions should be allowed to li·v~ 324

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 119 NM - 1 MR. HICKEY: their lives to the fullest capacity that they can, to the fullest capability that they can, and any suggestion or any effort to make a kind of hospital out of a senior citizens•home is certainly rejected outright. It seems that this is the area of disagreement and,as I understand it in talking to the Administrator today,there is no reason or cause for concern on behalf of relatives who have people in that institution and it is hoped that the matter will be resolved shortly. MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister should be aware of the fact that I believe the nurses have submitted two weeks notice and they are working on that notice. I would also like to ask the minister if any of the other staff employed in that hospital, the non-medical staff perhaps, are in any way involved in the dispute and if they have submitted any grievances to the Board of Directors of that home, and,if so,what the reaction of the Board of Directors was? . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. !o!R. HICKEY: I qrn not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of the area now that the hon. gentleman is involved in in relation to his question. As he can appreciate,those institutions operate for the most part at arms length from government and government only becomes involved when it is absolutely essential. It is an inter-faith institution MR. NEARY: What about the licencing? MR. HICKEY: - run by a board of directors. Why do you not put a cover on it 1 'Steve'?

It is run by a board of directors and we only get involved really when a crisis situation, or when a situation bordering on a crisis situation develops where we are asked to, or where we have to get involved for the general well-being of the residents. Now I am not aware that there might have been grievances, I am not aware that there have been; I have certainly not been and my staff 325

~larch 5, 1980 Tape No. 119 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: have not been made aware of it. This is a matter that would be dealt with by the board of directors and/or the administrator. But I will undertake to find out. MR. SPEAKER (S;imms) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I thank the minister for his commitment to indeed look into the situation and see what the problem is between the administrator and the nursing staff and also to look in and see if the board of directors are paying any attention to the nurses' grievances there.

I just want to ask the minister one final supplentary and that is in his opinion has the situation reached crisis proportion in Happy Valley, in the Paddon Memorial Home? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker, As I have indicated already, our discussions with the people at the home indicate that everything is basically normal. The people who require nursing care have been transferred to the hospital. This is the latest information that I have.

The dispensing of drugs to residents who require them is being done by the public health nurses in the area and therefore those are the critical areas that are affected by the nursing staff at this particular time. So there is no crisis situation that I am aware of. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, just a quick question in view of the fact the time is almost up, a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower. I wonder if the minister can inform the House just what is happening to this committee that was supposed to look into minimum wages in the Province?

Have they submitted a report yet or when does he expect a report -this year, next year? Just what is the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the han. member for asking me the question. As a matter of fact 1yesterday afternoon the Labour Standards Board presented their report to me on 326

March 5, 1980 Tape 120 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: minimum wages in the Province. I will be reviewing that report along with the information that will be provided to me by the chairman of that board and when I do, of course, I will bring the report and make a submission to government and government will deal with it at that time. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired.

I should bring to the attention of hon. members once again, Standing Orders 53.1(4) which further states that the ordinary daily routine of business shall end not later than 4:00 p.m. and at that time the Private Members motion shall be called by the Speaker. So unless there is agreement by the House to continue with the routine business , I will therefore have to call the Orders of the ~a! • By leave. SOME liON. MEMBERS: No, no~ MR. NEARY: We have already lost an hour. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion l. The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. G. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, I move on the resolution.

WHEREAS there is a lac.lt of specialized medical expertise in Labrador and on occasions patients are required to receive medical attention from Specialists on the Island portion of the Province which is only accessible by air and which is also extremely costly; BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador make available ambulance services for patients in Labrador comparable to services provided on the Island portion of the Province. Mr.

Speaker, I may go a little bit further and say in respect to students from Gaultois and other areas in Hermitage Bay that there are remote areas on the Island portion of the Province that have similar medical disadvantages as Labrador has. So although this resolution is particularly dealing with Labrador, I want to assure ~~is 327

March 5, 1980 Tape 120 EC - 2 MR. G. WARREN : hon. House that I am al.so including in my resolution any remote area in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, in 1949 Newfoundland became a. Province of the Dominion of Canada. At that time, Labraqor was included as a part of the Province of Newfoundland and at that time and up to today, Labrador is still a part of this Province, and under no circumstances should it be treated differently. Mr. Speaker, back in 1974, the hon. Dr. A. T. Rowe, Minister of Health, introduced an ambulance progrillllllle for t.'le Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The first paragraph in the introduction of this paper states: "The progress of the new programme is not only to JUake ambulance service 1110re readily available to our people but to remove any real financial hardship to users of ambulance services by Diaking them available at low cost." Now, Mr. Speaker, that was in 1974, nearly six years ago. Since that time we have had two or three provincial elections and we still have the Sallie government in poWer.

However, this same _government has not changed this paper, is still using a discriminatory attitud,e towards people who need medical. attention in Labrador and other remote areas of the Province. Mr. Speaker, when a patient in Grand Fal.ls has 328

March 5, 1960 Tape No. 121 EL - 1 ~R. G. WARREN: to come into the Janeway Hospital - I am talking, probably, about a ten-year old child now -is transferred into the Janeway Hospital in St. John's, that patient's parents, whether the child is escorted by a nurse or by the parents, that family has a burden of a maximum of fifty dollars. That is a maximum of fifty dollars. Probably it could be down so far as twenty, twenty-five, thirty or forty, but a maximum of fifty dollars.

If a patient in Black Tickle, Lab­ rador has to be referred into the Janeway Hospital, that patient,again if it is a ten-year old kid, that patient has to pay air transportation into Goose Bay. From Goose Bay, usually the patient will be taken to the Melville Hospital in Goose Bay by ambulance 1 which is forty dollars more by the ambulance in Goose Bay. The following day, if the patient needs to be referred to St. John's, the following day that patient will be transferred again by ambulance from the Melville Hospital to the air­ port at another forty dollars.

Then that _patient, depending-on the con­ dition of the patient, if it is a patient with broken legs or a stretch­ er case, it means four seats on EPA. It means a seat for the escort and three seats for the passenger, for the stretcher case. Now, I think we all know that the transportation from Goose Bay to St. John's by EPA per seat is some­ where in the vicinity of ~125.00; one way, ~,at is just one way. Now, the patient gets in there and the ambulance will come and pick the patient up at the St. John's airport and take the patient down to the Janeway Hospital. Another fee.

All in all, that patient from a little community on the Labrador eoast, probably the family only has an in­ come of eight or ten thousand dollars, will pay in the vicinity, one way, of approximately ~800.00 to ~l,ooo.oo, if it is an extreme case, a stretcher case. Now, Mr. Speaker, for a similar patient in Grand Falls, the family pays ~50.00 - a patient in Black Tickle, Lab- 329

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 121 EL - 2 HR. G. WARREN: rador, or for that example probably a patient in Gaul.tois in the middle of Winter would have to pay an extraordinary amount of money,anywhere from probably $800.00 to $1,000.00. Mr. Speaker, I have done a little bit of homework the last few days to get up as much infor~ation as possible that I could to support my argument that we should have an equal ambulance service for all parts of Newfoundland and Labrador, not just thecentralparts where an ambulance, a road ambulance can go in and come out. Mr.

Speaker, approximately there are 38,000·people in Labrador, roughly 38,000 and out of those people, now this is according to the Newfoundland Medical Association, the ratio of specialist doctors, that is including Newfoundland and Lab- rador, is one to three thousand and thirty. That is a ratio of a specialist to the population of ~ewfoundland and Labrador. Now, if we project the population of 38,000 out of one side, this ratio would drop tremendously on one hand 1 but in com­ paring specialists in Labrador to the population in Labrador, you have approximately one to eleven hundred.

So, you pretty well double it with only just one seventh of the population of the Island. Mr. Speaker, last year there were approxi~ately-I am not going to dwell too much on figures because I think the issue of the thing is that we need a service - butapproximat­ ely last year there were 1,000 people referred by doctors in Labrador to St. Anthony and other, larger hospitals on the Island. Now, at this time, I have to give 330

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 122 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: some congratulations to this government and in particular to the International Grenfell Association that on the coastal

section of Labrador the IGA does have an ambulance service going from the small nursing communities into a hospital for just minor surgery. Now this is in place, fine, but you only can get as far as Goose Bay or as far as St. Anthony,depending on which area on the Labrador Coast you live. However, out of these approximately 1,000 patients, 350 of those patients, give or take a few, are referred by doctors in Central Labrador. I am talking about Labrador City, Wabush, Churchill Falls and Goose - Happy Valley. Approximately 350 patients per year are referred to hospitals either in St. Anthony, st.

John's or Corner Brook, wherever else. Now, out of those 350 patients that are referred,one of out ever six to eight are stretcher cases. One out of every six or eight are stretcher cases,which mean this is where the crux of the burden ·is. The cost is for four seats on Eastern Provincial Airways. Mr. Speaker, in the last session of the House I made a few references in my maiden speech to Labrador. I think I gave a fairly good speech concerning the problems in Labrador and the hon.

House Leader on the government side got up and he started waving his hands and talking of all the recommendations that this government has approved in a royal commission on Labrador. I believe he named pretty well two-thirds of the recommendations were approved and were acted upon. And, Mr. Speaker, there is a recommendation in there, made up in 1974 by the royal commission and the recommendation says, "The commission strongly recommends that the Province provide medically authorized air transportation service free within the Province to all residents of Labrador}' Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is a recommendation passed by the royal commission which cost this government a heck of a lot of money. Now here is a recommendation that affects 331

March 5, 1980 Tape NO. 122 GH-2 MR. WARttN: every single person of these 38,000, because we do not know what day any person in Labrador or any other part of this Island will need medical attention outside of Labrador. Mr. Speaker, I am going to refer to different parts of this Royal Commission to show the hen. House why the Royal Commission made such a recommendation. one paragraph says, "Helicopter service cannot replace fixed wing aircraft.

However, it is highly desirable to have helicopters available to areas only seasonably inhabited and to reach settlements without airstrips at break-up and at freeze-up times." Now, Mr. Speaker, we have several helicopter companies in Goose B·ay, we have Labrador Airways with a fleet of aircraft in Goose Say, but these ue not available to pick up ·medical cases unless there is some reassurance that those companies will be paid for the medic's way back. Mr. Speaker, in Ma.ni toba , in the Northern part of Manitoba there are approximately 100, 000 people.

The Government of Manitoba at the present time is providing free transportation to all residents that- need medical attention to larger centres :i-n Manitoba. To all of those 100,000 residents, i£ they need medical attention, they will receive 332

March 5, 1980, Tape 123, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: free medical attention and it cost the government in 1974 roughly in the proximity of $250,000. Mr. Speaker, I am going to go back to another book here that the present government has great admiration for. In fact, I think this year in their budget there is some $110,000 allotted to this special group in Labrador to come up with some assistance for the government to wo:::-k 1"i th. Now, this group, again I think it was in 19 7 8 -this is four years later, after the royal commission. So we know now that this recommendation was not even looked at.

We know that this recommendation was not even considered. We know that - Mr. Speaker, do I have thirty minutes or twenty? MR. SPEAKER: Twenty. MR. WARREN: Twenty minutes? Okay. We know that four years down the road not a thing has been done with this recommendation.

So we get the Labrador Resources Advisory Council sending in a report to ~~e government on December 4, 1978, a little over a year ago, and here is what they said: "Another issue of serious contention with the air fare penalty for additional health services by travelling with doctor's otileJ;"s" - and this is what I said at the beginning, if it is referral by doctors. Now as far as I am concerned, if any patient wants to leave Labrador to come out and see a doctor here onthe Island, well, he he pays his own shot ..

It is deserving that they pay their own shot because we have doctors in Goose Bay and along the coast and in Labrador City. If they are referred by a doctor, fine! Now, To Another Hospital For Services not Provided in Labrador : Here is what this report says, and I presume Cabinet has discussed it. 333

March 5, 1980, Tape 123, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: "It is a scandalous thing when, number one, first of all a patient cannot receive any specialized care in Labrador." Because as the Medical Association referred to, there are not enough specialized doctors in Labrador to perform the surgery or whatever the case may be. "However, he has to be removed to another hospital to obtain such care on doctors orders but he has to pay for that travel himself or herself and it is indeed a serious issue".

Now, I have been preaching it in the last session and I have been saying it again this evening, the Labrador Resources Advisory c,ouncil has sai CI. - an arm of this goverrunent in Labrador- they have said it. So, what else can we say? What else do we expect? People in Labrador need medical attention and if the facilities and expertise are not there and doctors advise the patient to come out to larger centres on the Island, then why cannot this government bring in a resolution and say, 'Okay, John, you have to go to St. John's, you have to go to the Janeway Hospital or to the IGA Hospital in St.

Anthony for an operation because it cannot be performed in Goose Bay, we will take care of your transportation . "An obvious solution is to obtain such specialized medical care in Labrador if possible,'' but our medical care in low right across the Island in proportion to our doctor /patient ratic, so we are not asking that all specialists go to Labrador. We are not asking that any patient with any kind of a calamity be taken care of in Labrador. We are not asking that, we are asking that they be able to obtain suitable medical help ,as is possible for any resident, from St. John's right down to Nain, Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 334

March 5, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. JAMIESON: really know something about. DR. J. COI..LZNS : Tape No. 124 so - 1 The hon . Minister of Finance. Now you are on a sUbject you I know of many sUbjects. Mr. Speaker, I rise to respond to my friend. I do this really in place of the hon. Wallace House, the Minister of Health, who himself is not available today, as he is ill. I do not think it is anything too serious and we anticipate his return to the House shortly.

It is a great pleasure for me to respond to the hon. member,however, And as he stated his motion concerns, "WHEREAS there is a lack of specialized medical expertise in Labrador and on occasions patients are required to receive medical attention from Specialists on the Island portion of the Province,which is only accessible by air and which is also extremely costly", he puts forward the motion, •that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador make available ambulance services for patients in Labrador comparable to the services provided on the Island portion of the Province." Now, Mr.

Speaker, the han. member has put his finger on a very serious problem. This is not a problem that anyone would take very lightly. It is a matter of real concern,and I speak for my colleague,the hon. Minister of Health (Mr. W. Bouse), and I speak for this government and I certainly speak for myself, liowever, I would l.ilte, Mr. speaker, to try to put this in a somewhat broader contert because ambulance se=ices is just one part of the spectrum of health services. It is an essential part and a very important

part 1but nevertheless it is just one part of the whole spe~trum of health services and I would like just to, for a few moments, mention some points about health services in Labrador. 335

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 124 SD - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: I would like first to just touch on manpower. At the present time there are approximately twenty physicians and surgeons - twenty medical people - in the part of the Province on the mainland 1i.e., Labrador. Now, I am not exactly certain of the total population of Labrador at the present time,and I do not think anyone is absolutely certain,but it is something in the order of say JO,OOO,perhaps 32,000, something in that order.

So it works out at about one doctor per 1,500 of the population and this compares,I would say,with about one doctor for something like,say, 900 on the Island portion. There is a significant disparity there but nevertheless it probably is not as great a disparity as people imagine. I think people imagine that the number of doctors in Labrador is considerably smaller than it in actual fact is.

Now these doctors are spread throughout Labrador, that is in Northwest River- Goose Bay Bay area, in the ~urchill Falls area, in Labrador City area and also there is a doctor, and I believe my information is current on this, there is a doctor in the nursing station in Nain and I think one in Cartwright. MR. WARREN: Part-time. DR. J. COLLINS: Part-time. Now in addition to these doctors there are approximately 200 nursing personnel in Labrador.

This includes about twenty-five to thirty public health nurses and also includes nurses working in hospitals and other nurses with other duties as well as nursing assistants. MDN Medical School,with the International Grenfell Mission,has a programme called The Outpost Nursing Training Programme which assists these nurses and this programme is, I think, generally considered to be of considerable help in the nursing staffing of the various nursinq stations on the Labrador coast and elsewhere. 336

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 124 SD- 3 DR. J. COLLINS: we al.so 1 and hen. members know this, that we have a Medical School in the Province whieh is of fairly resent date and I think it is a matter of s~ reqret that there are no students from Labrador presently t;raininq at the Medical School. And one would look forward with anticipation and hope that that w.ill be remedied in the not t!

X) distant future. I think that this is a point that should be made · and I hope it will be remedied. 337

March 5 1 1980 Tape 125 EC - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: I would like to now turn 1 Mr. Speaker 1 from the medical and nursing personnel to the hospital and other facility status in Labrador. The International Grenfell Mission, of course, has hospitals in North. West River and also in the Goose Bay area. The Melville hospital in Goose Bay has forty beds and the one in North. West River forty-five beds. In addition to that they also have a hospital at Churchill Falls somewhat smaller, I think somet.'ling in the order of twenty-five beds. There are along the Coast quite a number of nursing stations.

I would like to just enumerate these to show that the Coast is pre~ty well served in this regard. There is one at Cartwright, there is one at Hopedale, there is one at Makkovik, Mary's Harbour, Forteau, Nain, Black Tickle, Charlottetown, Davis Inlet, Harbour Deep, Port Hope Simpson and - MR. G. WARREN: DR. J. COLLINS : You are leaving out Rigolet. I am sorry - in Rigolet. These nursing stations are not isolated, t.'ley are connected to the hospitals by radio-telephone system and the nurses in these stations can have the benefit of medical advice any hour of the day or night.

Also, most of these nursing stations have available beds for overnight care. At the present time, the government is planning three new clinics on the Coast, one in Postville and one in Rigolet; the one in Postville is going to cost something in the order of ~308,000, the one at Rigolet will be somewhat more expensive than that, and the expectation is that these will commence in the very near fu~ure; in addition there will be another - hopefully it will start later in the year, it is planned that wa~- at Makkovik, and that will cost something in t.'le order of $850,000 .

These will be very sophisticated clinics and very much needed in those areas . MR. G. WARREN: this year? Is there not one for Forteau 338 scheduled for

March 5, 1980 Tape 125 EC- 2 DR. J. COLLn.S: As far as I know there is not. I do not know whether the:t'e is one in the planning stage, but there is not one to commence this year. Now, these clinics , of course , are not so~ely financed by the provincial government. This is done under a DREE arrangement on a 90/10 basis, but they will be very valuable assets to the medical facilities, the health facilities on the Labrador Coast. I would like to now just mention, Mr.

Speaker, a point that gets a little bit nearer the hen. member's concern, that is the transportation system available to the residents of Labrador wilo need health services. The International Grenfell Mission has a plane available at North West River and, of course, there is also one in St. Anthony which is available for use along the Coast. When such planes are not available , for whatever reason 1 in case of need the gove:rnment will undertake charters to take t:are of patients who need transfer.

As the hen. member mentions, for the Labrador City - Wabush area, because they do have commerical airlines there, there are not smaller aircraft kept on tap there for transport purposes and the commercial airlines are used for that purpose. There are in Labrador, attached to the activities of other departments of goverilml;!nt such as Transportation and Communications, I believe, and Lands and Forests, helicopters, at least for some times of the year, and I believe that these helicopters are availabl.e in case of need. I think the hon. member suggested that these were not available.

I think that in case of emergency when there are no other ways of transferring patients that these helicopters can be used. MR. G. WARR&-..: Not to come down to the Island. 339

March 5, 19 80 Tape 125 EC - 3 DR. J. roLLINS : Right. Well, if they needed to go to the Island, probably they would be transferred to fixed wing aircraft. 340

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 126 DW - l DR. J. COLLINS: This would be a much more efficient way of getting them over long distances. Mr. Speaker, turning now to the specialists. The hon. member, I think, put his finger on another very important point, that is,the availability of specialists and I think the hon. member probably knows that it is not just the availability of specialists in Labrador which is a concern to government at this time.

The availability of specialists through- out the whole Province, the Island portion as well as the Labrador portion,is a mattdr of concern to government and we have had discussions with the Newfoundland Medical Association and with the Medicare Commission to see if we can get some measures in place to head off any crisis in this regard and hopefully to correct the situation as it is. But there are,actually, in Labra­ dor City at the William 3ackman Memorial Hospital there are surqical specialists there. I think there are two. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) not enough. DR. J.

COLLINS: I agree with the hon. member.I wish there more.I wish there were forty there,but I am just pointing out 1 I am just telling the House what is available. I am not saying that these are sufficient 1 I am just merely pointing out what is available. In addition to the special- ists resident in Labrador albeit they are just a small number, there are also visiting specialists who go to Labra- dor,both to the Labrador City/Wabush area and also the Goose Bay/ Northwest River area.

These are specialists usually arranged by Memorial University,although some of these special- ists are actually in private practice in various parts of the Province. The Coastal area is served by specialists both from M.U.N. and also by specialists from the National Grenfell l·1is3ior ... Memorial University also has in place a telephone 341

Harch 5, 1980 Tape No. 126 Di-1 - 2 OR. ~- COLLINS: system, a dial up telephone system,connected to all of the hospitals in Labrador so that at an~ time ~ specialist's advice is required, it is available through this means. And I think that this also is a very valuable service. Mr. Speaker, hon. members, I think,will remember that last year Memorial University carried out an experiment in tele~medicine 1 this is using satellites,and this was a very successful experiment and Memorial University now has in a proposal to the federal government for funds to put this in place on a permanent basis.

This would allow the use of audio- visual means of specialist consultation. It is not a total substitute for a specialist on the ground but it is certainly a very good alter.native if the other is not available. So I would hope,and I think Memorial is hopefal 1 that federal funds will be available to pu~ this project in place. now the arrangement, Mr. Speaker, just mentioning I do not think I have too much to add to what the hen. member brought up there.

If there are transfers of patients by the IGA aircraft or by a charter aircraft if the IGA aircraft is not available, I do not believe there is a charge to the patients. That is my understanding,that this is at no cost to the patient. Now if the patient does have to go by commercial aircraftf by EPA,there is charge to the patient and if the case is a stretcher case often there is more than just one seat,there may be two, probably three becabse an escort is almo~t always nec­ essary: sometimes there could even be four.

I think more usually there is three, one for the escort and two for the patient. ~nd this clearly can a~ount to quit~ a costly undertaking 342

~! arc ~ 5, 1980 '!'ap e No . 126 DW - 3 DR. J. COLL:INS: f~r the patient. The Department of Health, as I said at the beginning,is very concerned about th~s and would like to do something about it and actually has some plans to remedy the situation. But this is what I want to emphasize: now I think the hon. member mentioned that in Manitoba where they have 100,000 people in the No ,rthern part, they have a free air ambulance system, and if I remember correctly he mentioned the figure of a quarter ~f a million dollars. Well,I would think that if we wanted to put in a free air ambulance system 343

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 127 EL - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: in Labrador, that would be peanuts, that would not s=atch the surface. I have not the figures here 1 but I would suggest that if one patient needing transfer from Labrador City to perhaps St. Anthony,or perhaps Grand Falls or perhaps St. John's, can face a bill of something like $1,000.00 or perhaps $1,500.00 to take care of all the needs for air ambulance in Labrador would reach much higher than a quarter of a million dollars. I would think it would cost very,very much more than that. And this is the bottom line , Mr.

Spe~er, this is the bottom line: Where is this government going to get the extra funds to face this problem, this expensive problem, as well as other services required? Are we to cut down services already in place to put in there? It is not a case of discrimination, ~x. Speaker. Can we take away services that are in place now which are needed? Clearly not. Not even the hon. member would require that. This would require additional funds. This government is working on an extraordinarily tight budget and it has done so for years. We have hopes to remedy the situation.

We have hopes to have increased rev­ enues, much increased revenues to take care of this type of service, but not only this type of service, many other crying needs in this ~rovince. We will only get those increased revenues largely off-shore and this is the point that we want to make to hen. members opposite. We hope that they will understand 1 we want to make this to them very sincerely. We want to make this point to the people in this !rovince totally and we hope our friends in the media will bring this message across.

We will not be able to bring in the services that our people deserve and require unless we achieve very 344

,, March 5, 1980 Tape No. 127 EL - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: very large revenue sources from the natural resources available to this province and we will only get those resources by one means, that is if we can organize our natural resour­ ces to fulfill our needs. This is a point of the most crucial import­ ance for everyone to understand and I appeal to all the hon. members of this House to bring that message clearly and widely to the pecple in this province, and to our friends in Ottawa. their friends,our friends in Ottawa-because this message has to go·through.

We need vastly increased resources, not only to t"lc<e care of our needs, but if out own resources increase, to get rid of our equalization payments. We will not .1'- ·- --- - have any choice in that regard. They will no longer be available to us. But we need those increased revenues very ,very critically. We will only be able to e~ s~e -the~ if we can manage our natural resources as we feel they should be man­ aged and we can only do that if we achiev~ our rightful measure of own­ ership. This is the bottom line.

We are not taking this stand, this government is not taking this stand because it wishes to take it for some sense of-self-aggrandizement.We will only be able to do what is required, what our people deserve, what they are asking us to give themt '#a will only be able to do that-and they are not asking more than any other citizen in this country is asking. They are just saying, (;ive us what any citizen of Canada rightly deserves anc' •.-re are saying we will try to satisfy that very reasonable need .- when we have the ability to do it.

We cannot give up our resources as we have done so often in the past and lived to regret it. We cannot do that any longer,we must have our natural resou~ces to take care of the rightful needs of our ~rovince. We car. only do this through proper ownership and proper management. SOHE HON. ME8BERS: MR. SPEAKER (SI~~

S) HR. S. NEARY Here! here! The han. meMber for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I think I have heard it all. "The bottom line~'says the Hon.and learned doctor, the bottom line is that we do not have the money to look after the sick people of this Frovince, that is the bottom line, I say God help the sick people in this 345

March 5 , 1980 Tape No. 127 P.A-3 MR. S. NEARY ~'rovince. We just heard .a senior ~~nister in the ~abinet 1a doctor,get u~ in this House and make the most foolish, nonsensical statement I have 346

March 5,1980 Tap e No. 128 AH-1 MR. NEARY: ever heard in my life. If the oil does not start to flow in from the offs ·hore 1 pe.ople have to die. I would say, Mr. Speaker, what has to ha .ppen is not for the media to get the message out that we have to get oil and get the message up to Ottawa 1 That is not the message that has to go out. The message that has to go out is that this government has to get its priorities straight. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: We have before us, Mr. Spe~ker- how hypocritical!

How hypocritical can they be! - we have before us an Auditor General's Report pointing out, to the members of this House and to the people of t~is ?rovince 1 millions of dollars uncollected in Retail Sales Tax,a~d the minister gets up and says, "Where will the money come from?" It should come from the beer barons and the owners of the bistros and the night clubs and the cabarets that owe this money to the provincial treasury, buddies of the members of the administration. And I do not know but my hon. friend's bistro is included in it. SOME HON. MEMBER : :a ear, hear! MR.

NEARY: Seven or eight million dollars owing arid the minister is over there talking about a paltr y quarter of a million dollars. Seven or eight or ten million dollars uncollected in Retail Sales Tax! DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) serious debate MR. NEARY: A serious debate) The han. gentleman turned it intd a sham. The bon. gentleman evaded the main issue in this resolution. The main issue is an ambulance service, treat the Labradorians, the residents of Labrador,the same as residents of the Island of Newfoundland 347

March 5,1980 Tape No. 128 IB-2 MR. NEARY: and not discriminate against them. That was the issue. And the hon. gentleman talked about a nursing programme, talked about no students over in the Medical Health Science Complex from Labrador, talked about a.J.l the nu:~;sing stations and all the hospitals including the one in No:~;th west River, but the han. gentleman did not tell us that the gove:~;nment is planning on closing that one up next year. He talked about the Grenfell planes and if they a:~;e not available one can be cha:~;te:~;ed and it will be paid for.

And then ended up by saying, uThe bottom line is that we do not have the money to provide this ambulance se:~;vice." We have the money in this Province to contribute to a golf cou:~;se in Gander. we have the money in this Province to send the Norma and Gladys off on its binges around various parts of the world and North America .. We have the money to give Bob Cole $65,000 that he is not entitled to. We have the money to pay for ~ Tory convention out in Gande:~;. M:~;. Speaker, that should be investigated by the commercial and fraud squad of the RCMP. It is fraudulent.

It is a straight fraud on the treasury of this Province, on the public treasury, straight fraud and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) tells us it is not going to be investigated and the minister wants to know where the money is going to ~ome from. Read the Auditor General's Report and the bon. gentleman will find out the bottoa line,And never mind getting up and talking about oil. All this crowd can think about is oil. Oil! Oil! We have been hearing it for years, oil! Oil! In the meantime people die because they are not getting proper services. The heaith services are being downgraded and neglected.

Hospital beds are being Closed. Hospitals are being closed up like the one in North West River. The 348

~! arc h 5, 19 80 Tape !lo. 128 IB- 3 MR. NEARY: people of Labrador are being discriminated against and the bon. gentleman get$ up and drags the oil into the debate. How did the bon. gentleman manage to get oil into this debate? Mr. Speaker, you would never say, Sir, we had a fishery in this Province to listen to the administration. All they can think about is oil. Even when we had Mackey Night down at the stadium this year down arrived the Premier dressed up as an oil sheik. They must dream about it night and day. All they can think about is - oil. In the meantime,every service in this Province is being neglected and downgraded 1much 349

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 129 GH-1 MR. NEARY: to the shame of the administration. And that hon. gentleman - no wonder, Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder, any wonder that people of this Province are so discouraged and disillusioned when they hear not only from - you cannot say from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), but from a medical man who puts a price tag on peOple's health, saying we do not have the money to do it? t'l'e can do everything else. We can increase members' salaries 40 or SO per cent. DR. J. COLLINS: You do not want that? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of wanting it.

I am just pointing out to the han. gentleman it is a matter of getting your priorities straight. DR. J. COLLINS: I will tell my officials to straighten your priorities. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman should tell his officials a few other things, too, that I will remind the hon. gentleman of before this session is over. MR. THOMS: a few things. MR. NEARY: Maybe his former deputy minister can tell us Yes, that is right. If we can only get that deputy minister to talk, we might be able to find .out a few things about the minister's department and what a shambles it is in, what a mess.

MR .• WHin;: We have had more deputy ministers of Finance than any other province of canada. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that my hon. friend has brought a motion into this House asking the House and the government, if this motion is approved, asking the government to give the residents of Labrador the same treatment, no more, no less, than everybody else in Newfoundland is entitled to. That is all it is asking, a very simple matter, and the hon. gentleman got up and spent 20 or 25 minutes evading the subject. I am sure if we wanted to, Mr.

Speaker, that every member of this House, if he wanted to, could get up and tell a hair­ raising story or a heart-rending story about a case that he knows about in Labrador. I spent three and a half years as Minister of Social Services in this Province and I guarantee you that I could tell you a few stories, 350

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 129 GH-2 MR. NEARY: and since then, since I have been over here in the opposition, I have had numerous requests from people in Labrador who say that they cannot get the treatment they are entitled to. They cannot take their little child to St. John's three or four times a year because they have to buy three seats on EPA and they cannot afford it. Enough to make you sit down and cry. MR. THOMS: I know a case where they had to buy ten seats. MR. NEARY: Yes, ten, sometimes ten seats.

I know people in Labrador City - and the hon. gentleman was up trying to boast about the fact there are a couple of specialists in the hospital in Labrador City - I well 1 I know people in Labrador City who are earning good money, earning good money, who have to bring their little child to St. John's and to Montreal several times a year. I do not care how much money you are making 7 do you think that these people can stand that? And the hon. gentleman gets up and ends up his few remarks, "The bottom line, the bottom line is that we do not have the money". MR. WHITE: Take it out of the helicopter contract. MR.

NEARY: The bottom line is, Mr. Speaker- and the hon. gentleman mentioned helicopters- look at the Auditor General's report and see who used and misused and abused the helicopters. MR. 1-lARREN: In Labrador, too) In Labrador, too~ MR. NEARY: Another justification for a police investigation~ charges put in twice for helicopters used by the Premier and a couple of his flunkies from Gander who were down there allegedly studying the salmon rivers in Labrador, and here you have sick people, people with sick children looking up watching the helicopters overhead going off - MR. WHITE: Frank Moores, MR.

NEARY: to Michael's River with the Premier and his entourage - not the present Premier, the previous Premier and his entourage - going off fishing, salmon fishing, and boozing her up down in Adlatok. That is what the people of Labrador had to watch, as my hon. friend is aware. You would not know but it was the landing of Normandy, the beaches 351

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 129 GH-3 MR. NEARY: of Normandy, the helicopters overhead, but not carrying sick people;as my han. friend indicated, carrying the most crooked ~remier, the most corrupt in Newfoundland's history, 352

March 5, 1980, Tape 130, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: who headed up the most corrupt and crooked administration in Newfoundland's history,and carrying some of his cabinet colleagues with him. And some are in the present Cabinet. The present Premier did not get rid of them all. There are a couple of hangovers still in the existing Cabinet. A couple of hangovers. And the han. gentleman will live to regret that he hung on to these two gentlemen, one in particular, the one I referred to today, too busy looking after his $1,000 dog house that A.B.Walsh built for him.

That is what they are interested in, not providing ambulance service for the people of Labrador. Too busy watching their colour televisions sets. A.B.Walsh provided twenty of them one Christmas. MR. THOMS: Twenty-four. MR. NEARY: No, twenty. That is all they are int.erested . in 1 oil," dog houses, colour television setsl And the bon. gentleman has the gall 1 the audacit·r · and the nerve to stand up in this House and say, 'Oh no, we cannot look after the sick and the dying, we cannot provide ambulance services for residents of Labrador because the oil is not coming ashore yet'.

Well, you would swear that the oil has been coming ashore for the last seven or eight years the way that this crowd has mismanaged the affairs of this Province, the extravagance and waste of the administration that the bon. gentlemen supported,and they think they can sweep under the rug. It is all starting to come out now. We have been saying it in this House for the past six or seven years and do you know the diversionary tactic they used, Mr. Speaker? The diversionary tactic; 'Oh, it is all smear. You are lowering the decorum of the House. How do you expect 353

March 5, 1980, Tape 130, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: honest people to get into politics?' And when that did not work they blamed it on John C.Doyle. And John C.Doyle, by the way, whom they consider a fugitive from justice, did less, much less than commit a fraud on ~e public treasury by taking public funds and spending them on a poll for a Tory convention, much less. And the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheime ·

r) sits there and tells us, 'Oh, no, well, there might be a violation of the Financial Administration Act, there may be a violation of that but no, I do not think it warrants a police investigation'. The Minister of Jusit .ce knows better than that. MR. OTTENEEIMER: If the hon. gentleman will permit, I did say, 'based on the information I now have. 1 ~... .... ~ ...... ; MR. NEARY: Mr. Sp~aker, the only way you can get the information is to have an investigation. I mean, how stunned does the hen. gentleman think we are? And I have a great deal of respect for the hon. gentleman. MR.

THOMS: On the information you have now you could order that. Just look at that. MR. NEARY: On the information that was tabled today. Look, Mr. Speaker, I have seen royal commissions look into television sets, I have seem royal cOllllllissions look into distribution of welfare funds on Bell Island, I have seen royal commissions look into everything-far, far less important, insignificant than this information tabled in the House today 1 and the hon. gentleman sits there and tells us there is going to be no police investigation. MR. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER(Baird): SOME' IrON. MEMBERS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order. Oh, oh! 354

March 5, 1980, Tape 130, Page 3 -- apb MR. STAGG: The hon. gentleman, yesterday, interrupted me on a point of order when I thought I was quite relevant in the Throne Speech. MR. THOMS: You have never been relevant. MR. STAGG: The hon. gentleman is supposed to be speaking about medical services in Labrador and he has been talking about everything but. So I think he should be directed to the rule of relevancy. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr . -Speaker. MR. SPE.AKER: The hen. the member for LaPoile . MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Sir.

I am talking about fraudUlent misuse of public funds and I am telling the minister where he can get the money to run this ambulance service. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: on the point of order 1 I rule that there is a difference of opinion. SOME HON, MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would remind the hon. member, too, we are the discussing the motion at the same time. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would submit to the hon.gentleman, Sir, that he go over the estimates, go over the budget with a finetoothed comb, and I am sure in ten seconds flat the hen. gentleman could find a quarter of a million dollars, if that is what is required - and we are not sure of the figure· - or more. The hen. gentleman could find more if he wanted it. 355

11arch 5, 1980 Tape No. 131 DW - l MR. S. NEARY: Look, Mr. Speaker, there was enough spent on Mt. Scio house to provide an ambulance service for six months to the residents of Labrador. Where is that list until I - I could not believe it. Twenty linear feet of some kind of wood for shelves - MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. S. NEARY: $2,000. $2~200. The han. gentleman asked me 'Where is the money going to come from?' First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the hon. Premier and to the ministers and to the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), the spokesman for the government on this particular resolution, that four security guards be removed from the Premier's house. Why does the Premier need four security guards? Why? Why does he? AN HON. MEMBER: ~R. S. NEARY: Premier's dogs up there? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. S. NEARY: To look after the dogs. Is he looking after the former Oh, oh! One domestic worker; $9,100.Look, Mr. Speaker, ~122,000 spent on Mt. Scio house. Furniture, $33,000. That could transport an awful lot of sick children, of crippled children who cannot get specialized treatment in Labrador. Could it not,Mr.

Speaker?your Honour cannot answer me. SOME HON. MEMBSRS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Carpet, $14,070. I will tell you something, Mr. Speaker, that I just finished building a house that I moved into only three weeks and I wish I had $122,000. Not only would I build it and furnish it but I could have a nice little holiday in the bargain. MR. SPEAKER (Baird ): Order, please! 356

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 131 ow - 2 .O..N HON . :1EMBER: How much did it cost you? MR. S. NEARY: How much did it cost me, that is my business! That is my business! And if the hon. gentleman wants to know I will tell him privately. But I <Yuarantee you this,that I would be able to live rest of my life. comfortably for the MR. SPEAKER (Bai .rdl: Order, please! I would like to remind the hon. member to stick to the point we are discussing 1 please. MR. S. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Spe~ker.

The point we are discussing is the one raised by the hon. g~ntle­ man who is speaking on behalf of the government,who says the bottom line is that we do not have the money and we have to wait for the oil to cgme ashore. In the meantime, people will suffer, in the meantim .e people can stay .down in Labrador and in the remote parts of Newfoundland 1in Grand Bruit and in LaPoi~e and in Petitesfand they can sta~ there and rot as . far as we are coricerned because we cannot do anything until the oil comes ashore. What a joke! What a joke, Mr. Speaker! Mr.

Speaker, I would submit to the hon. gentleman that instead of getting up in this House and telling the people of this Province that they should continue to suffer, the residents of Labrador should not get the same treatment as sick people on the Island of Newfoundland because they cannot afford to get to . specialists or ~et to hospitals in the urban centres or in St. John 's, that they should stay there and rot - that is the message that should go out, not the message that, 'Oh, we will wait until the oil comes ashore'. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that it will not be long before the people of this Province will see through the phony arguments and the gigantic bluff that this administration is runnin~ that they cannot do anything without oil when it is only 357 -

~larc h 5, 1980 Tape No. 131 DW - 3 MR . S . )IE.'\.ll.Y: a matter of just looking at the Estimates in the Budget and getting thei;r p;rio;rities st;raight and eliminate the fat and the ext;ravagance and the waste still in the Budget. And I will show the hon. gentleman when we get to the Budget. OR. COLLINS: MR. S. NEARY: a question. Would you pe;rmit~a question? Yes, I ce;rtainly would pe;rmit 3.58

March 5, 1980 Tape 132 MB - 1 DR. J. COLLINS : This is an extremely serious matter that the resolution is.on. The hon. member has had his fun now. We do not object to that but before he finishes, he only has a minute or two left, would he actually support us in our attempt to get increased revenues to cure this very real problem? I am sure the hon. member's heart is in the right place. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker , there is no relation- ship between the two things. No relationship.

What the hon. gentieman should do -~d I am quite serious, and that is why I am so emotional about this issue ~ I happen to know the situation, the hon. gentleman is not familiar with it. He has not been exposed to it to that degree. Ke has not hardly moved outside st. John's,I suppose,for that matter. But there are people in this Province - MR. THOMS: meeting. MR. NEARY: He was in Corner Brook at a Cabinet - who are suffering, undergoing hard- ship , people dying because they cannot afford to get to a specialist. DR. J. COLLINS: support. MR. NEARY: or a hospital. DR. J. COLLINS: support. MR.

NEARY: That is why I am asking you for your Cannot afford to get to a specialist That is why I am asking you for your If I were the hon. gentleman,instead of trying to be hypocritical, instead of trying to use little political manoeuvring and political tricks, the hon. gentleman should go down j:onight, take the Sudget home with him and go through it. Wipe out the Norma and Gladys, wipe out a few golf courses 1 and wipe out sorne of the foolish­ ness in the Budget and then we would be able to provide an ambulance service to the sick people of Labrador. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ 359

Haren s, 1980 Tape 132 .MB - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) The hon. the Minister for Rural 1 Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps Irrf first words should be of congratulations to the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) for having brought in this resolution. I would remind him that it is not the first time that this particular topic has been debated either inside or outside the honourable House of Assembly.

But it is one which is of grave,I think,and very real concern to himself, to other members representing Labrador districts and I would suggest to the Government side of the House as well. I think what I should do first is remind the hon. member for Torngat :-Jountains of one particular thing. He made a statement which was incorrect and I do not wish to predict anything but he may be in trouble with the Labrador Resources . Advisory Council after his statement. MR. THOMS: Who is going to be in trouble? MR. J. GOUDIE : Just hang on now. Just wait until I am finished now. He suggested, Mr.

Speaker, that the Labrador Resources Advisory Council - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please; MR. J. GOUDIE : is an arm of this government. MR. WH:tTE: And very rightly so. MR. J. GOUDIE : That is incorrect. They receive money from this government. They submit their budget on an annual basis to me as minister responsible for that particular funding. That is the extent of it. They have drawn up their own constitution. They go their own way.

Now some hon. members may disagree with what the Labrador Resources Ad­ visory Council is trying to do,but to suggest that they are an arm and follow the directions of this Provincial Government,or the Federal Government for that matter, is completely incorrect and completely wrong. MR. HISCOCK: Orqanizers for the government party, that is all. 360 ·.

~larch 5 , 19 SO Tape 132 t1B - 3 MR. J. GOUDIE: Pardon me? MR. HISCOCK: I said they just have a couple of candidates who actually run for the P.C. Party. They have nothing to do with - MR. J. GOUDIE: resident of Labrador Well, I assume Mr. Speaker, that any 361 -· -

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 133 so - 1 MR. J. GOUDIE : has the right to seek political office as do members from outside of Labrador who represent Labrador seats. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. J. GOUDIE : In any event, Mr. Speaker, I think we are discussing a very serious matter here and I just wanted to make a few coi!IDents on the topic.

Correct me if I am wrong - any hon. member of the House - but I believe that in the case of a medical emergency in Labrador, and I am talking just emergency only,ncthinq else, I believe the criteria is that if that emergency occurs - this is going to sound rather ridiculous but it is the way it is - if this emergency occurs within three hours of an EPA flight departure, then that patient and the accompanying nurses or doctors have to bock seats on that aircraft. In the case of a:·medical emergency occ~g outside of these hours,then service is provided. That is the way I understand it. MR.

THOMS: You have to admit that is terrible. MR. J. GOUDIE: It is terrible, yes. I agree with the resolution, no question, and as a member of Treasury Board I would love nothing more then to vote $250,000 or $500,000 to provide this type· of service. Now whether or not it is going to come in ;for consideration during the Treasury Board discussicDS for this Budget, I do not know. I quess that will be revealed during the discussion on the estimates of the Department of Ileal th . I would think. But I would, Mr.

Speaker, and I am sure all hen. members on this side of the House as well as members on the other side of the Rouse, would like nothing more than to say, "Yes, here is the money, let us do it." Now, the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) suggested that there are a number of ways in 362

March 5,1980 Tape No. 133 SD - 2 MR. J. GOUDIE: which money can be found to provide funds for this type of service. He criticized particularly the helicopter service as it is utilized by this government both on the Island part of the Province and in Labrador.

I would like to remind him, although he is not in the House, of another abuse,if that is what it can be called,of a helicopter service and that is the use by the Canadian Armed Forces of so-called survival camps in Labrador, in Eagle River,in particular 1where helicopters, -·I have seen them 1fly daily in and o~with loads of passengers bringing back fish, some survival, bringing back fish to be transported to other parts of Canada and perhaps the States for all I know. And that occurs on a daily basis in Labrador, by the Canadian Aimed Forces funded by the Federal Government. !oiR. WARREN : last SUIIIIIler MR. J.

GOUDIE : Every year,and it will be going on again this year - survival camps , Mr. Speaker, survival camps. MR. THOMS: money on it. MR. J. GOUDIE: And that justifies our wasting It does not justify it, I am just suggesting that if the han. member is looking for areas in which to save,then perhaps the Federal Government might be interested in putting in some money to provide this type of service as well. Both governments are elected to represent and serve peoples of this country. Does that mean that only . the provincial government is responsible for providing funds for this type of thing or - AN HON.

MEMBER~ : MR. J. GOUDIE: MR. THOMS: MR. J. GOUDIE: what about morally? Yes. - it is - Constitutionally. Alright, constitutionally, but That is another question. The member had a question, I think. 363

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 133 SD - 3 MR. HISCOCK: 'l'he question that ! ask is does the provincial qovernment licence or qive pe:r:mission for licances and lodqes? If the minister is sayinq that it is not a survival c:amp and is not beinq utilized ·the way it should be then revoke the licence, MR. W~: Ri¢1t on. Ri.qht on. MR. J. GOUDIE: My colleaque suqqests that it is beinq done, I· do not know that I am not responsible for that particular - yes, this provincial qovermnent licences these c:amps but 364

March 5, 1980 Tape ~o. 134 IB-1 MR. GOUDIE: is there not also a responsibility, Mr. Speaker, on the part of the licensee to live up to the terms and the conQ.itions of t_hat particular lease or proposed operation? It goes both ways. Enforcement is another very large factor. I understand that the trout fishery and the salmon fishery in this Province or in any other province, in terms of enforcement,arethe responsibility of the federal government. That is what I understand. I know there are federal fisheries officers in Labrador, stationed at Happy Valley-Goose Bay who have no way of monitoring this.

They only inspect the aircraft that come back at a certain point but these helicopters can go and come wherever they please. So there is a problem there as well. But that is entirely off the subject and one hon. member was reminded earlier to be relevant, Mr. Speaker. But I did want to make that point about the Labrador Resources Advisory Council.

I would suggest as well, Mr~ Speaker, in terms of health services being offered in Labrador - my colleague suggested a number of service _s which are being provided - that additional services are being provided almost annually now.In the member's district itself, in the community of Makkovik, I do not know if the new nursing clinic has been finished but I know it was begun last year which I think it going to be, I am sure it will be 1 an improvement for the delivert of health care in Labrador.

I think it might be important to- well,perhaps not important but relevant - to point out something else about health care in Labrador. I unde.rstand from the news this morning, I think, that a committee is meeting in Happy Valley tonight to discuss the medical services or lack thereof, depending on which way you look at it, in the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area which came out of a 365

~larch 5, 1980 Ta~e No. 134 IB-2 !·IR . GOUDIE : television interview and some press releases some months ago . I think the Intern ationa l Grenfell Association is co be commended for the type of work they have done in Labrador over the years from day one until t~e present day. Granted,there have been lack of facilities in the past and there is still some lack of facilities now. And lack of spec ialists,as the bon. member pointed out.is another very large problem.

But I think the impression was left from many of the newsca sts and many of the public comm ents by other people that t!le !GA with t:.heir delivery of health care in Labrador were scoundrels, they were negligent in their duty. And I chink that is comp~etely wr ong. I can give stories. Jus c. as one example, Mr . Speaker, if we want t:.o calk about healt:.h services, what they are now, what they should be and what they were in the past.

One of the prime fund raising techniques used by Sir Wil~red Grenfell ,when t:.he Grenfell Mission was being established 1 was the use of a young lady from near Rigolet in Labrador whom he took with him on his various so journs to Europe and t:.o parts of the States and used her as an example of what medical services had been in Labrador. At the age of fourteen she bad been exposed t:.o cold temperatures overnight in her home,unable to get firewood. Her fat:.her was away. Her pregnant mother froze to death .

Her legs were amputated with an axe and the next year Sir Wilfred Grenfell took her on hi s ~und raising tours and raised millions of dollars 366 •

March 5, 1980, Tape 135, Page 1 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: just on that one lady. The late Kakina Mucko, by the way, was her name, to prove to people all over the world that these medical services were needed. And,obviousl y, improvemen .ts have taken place since then but again I repeat, I agree with the motion and wholeheartedly support the context of it. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: Now the question comes, how do we find the money? My colleague, the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) and the member for LaPoile (Mr. Near

y) exchanged some views on that. Being a member of Treasury Board I am not holding out too much hope right now, but then, again, we have not gone through the whole budgetary process yet. I really have very little more to say on the subject other than that, Mr. Speaker. The member for Torngat Mountains(Mr. warren) made reference to ~~e Royal Commission on Labrador and some of the recommendations made therein. I should point out to hen. members, I guess, I intend tomorrow, if the opportunity presents itse l f~~~ me ,to take

part in the debate, to present to my colleagues in the House of Assembly, and for distribution throughout Labrador following that, a list of the recommendations which have been implemented. I think there were 288 recommendations made during the hearings of the Royal Commission and nearly that many, nearly all of them have been implemented, if not totally, then to certain levels of implementation. AN HON. MEMBER: Snowden do it? MR. GOUDIE: Yes, that is correct. There is a booklet a little thicker than this that I will be distributing as well so that all han. members will have a chance to examine 367

March 5, 1980, Tape 135, Page 2 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: it, criticize it and offer alternate suggestions, if that is the way it works out. - I think one other comment ~ before I take my seat, Mr. Speaker. I have said repeatedly that I agree with this resolution and the intent of it; to provide better means of transportation of patients from Labrador to larger centres on the Island part of the Province, either St. Anthony or other areas. What I would prefer to see, if I had my druthers, shall we say, is to have a referral centre in Labrador itself, .: preferably, in my opinion, in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area.

It is the centre of communications and transportation for all parts of Labrador and I think that would be the answer. I realize there are some difficulties with that,and the medical people in this han. House could offer better reasons why, but I understand that is it di~ficult, for instance, to get . specialists in man~ fields to travel to any part of the ~ountry,let alone Labrador, where there is a small enough population base that their services are not fully utilized.

I guess part of the satisfaction of being a specialist in the medical field is not only to administer medicine and to practice medicine, but also to get some kind of personal satifaction from what is being done by that specialist. And I understand that is a relevant point which is considered by specialists when they are offered opportunities for work in remote areas. I am not suggesting that the specialists are to blame for not going there, I realize there are financial considerations as well.

But there are many factors to be considered, I think is what I am suggesting, and whether or not the solution is to provide funds to fly 368

March 5, 1980, Tape 135, Page 3 -- apb 1-\R . GOUDIE : people from Labrador to other referral centres in the Province or to have a referral centre in Labrador. I prefer the latter. I commend the hon. member for his resolution and would hope that the budgetary process will allow us to do exactly what he suggests. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The ho ·n. the 111emher for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I really cannot believe what I have heard this afternoon. I said to my colleague when he introduced the resolution that the debate will only last for one speaker.

The debate on this resolution will last for only your introductory twenty minutes because immediately the Minister of Health (Mr. House) or the Premier will jump up and say, 'This cannot be true. This cannot be true, I ant sorry. With apologit;!s to the members representing Labrador, thank you for bringing it to our attention that we are treating the Labradorians differently from the way we are treating people in Newfoundland'. I said,'It will not last longer than your speech and then . we had better be prepared for what is going to happen 369 !.

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 136 GH-1 MR. STIRLING: for the rest of the afternoon, because I am sure the Premier will not sit through listening to this kind of discrimination, and I cannot believe what I just heard. I cannot believe. I said that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) will be really disappointed that he has been found lacking because he did not know that this condition existed. I was sure they would say, "Oh, look I am sorry, that is an oversight. Let us go back, let us go back, back to the little booklet.

Here is what the little booklet says: 1974, the purpose of the new program is not only to make ambulance services more readily available to our people but to remove any real financial hardship to users of ambulance services by making them available at low cost for all of Newfoundland." For all of Newfoundland, and Labrador is part of Newfoundland, for all of this Province. I was sure that the minister would be apologizing and embarrassed, embarrassed to say, "You mean my officials are not doing _ this now?

You mean that somebody from Labrador has been treated differently from the people in Newfoundland?" And the Premier, I was sure, would make a statement. ~he Premier has. said in the last Throne Speech and again in this Throne Speech about how important it is for us to preserve our way of life, how important it is for his government to be accountable. I cannot believe what I heard! The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), pinch-hitting for the Department of Health, because as soon as he stood up I said, "Well, here it comes.

Here is the announcement, it is in the Budget:· I could not believe it, absolutely could not believe it, and while I was sitting her~ you probably realized, I read through this little booklet again and I found maybe a key. The answer may be here for this government. I found the key. Here is the key to a number of questions. Does this program assist in paying for ambulance expenses incurred outside Newfoundland? No, this program is designed to assist residents of Newfoundland in the Province of Newfoundland. That is the key to it. MR. NEARY: Maybe Quebec is right after all. MR. STIRLING: That is the key to it.

You are treating the people in Labrador as if they were from another province. 370

March 5, 1980 Tape NO. 136 GB- 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, we owe, those ot us who are resident on the Island portion of this Province, really owe a debt of gratitude to the representatives in this House from Labrador who are trying to get across a message. The Premier gets up and says, "I am a fighting Newfoundlander. We own the offshore." Well, what about the Labradorian? What about the Labradorian who sits up there and says, "You are exploiting my country. You are exploiting the offshore.

You are exploiting the minerals, and you will not even take our kids and give them the same treatment as the kids on the Island of NewfoUndland. " MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! liN HON. MEMBER: Do not get your blood pressure up. MR. STIRLING: I will get my blood pressure up and so should more people get their blood pressure up, because the - liN HON. MEMBER: get treated. MR. STIRLING: You should go to Labrador where they cannot - because the people in Labrador, the.people in Labrador should have a priority . You get somebody here saying, "Why can we not get specialists to go t"o Labrado;z:-?

Why can we not get other Newfoundlanders to go to Labrador." Mr. Speaker, because one of the reasons ~hat this government and this House must take as a priority that everybody in Newfoundland has equal opportunity, equal rights, whether they live in a remote part of the Island of Newfoundland or a remote part of Labrador. They have the absolute equal rights, and that is what this resolution is saying. We should not be deb