Manitoba Hansard — 10 June 1994 (Sitting 45, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-45

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Sessi on • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLm No. 45 • 10 a.m., Friday, June 10, 1994 JSSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERllLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonud, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIPDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harr y, Hon. ERNST, Trm, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FJNDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MAMITOBALEG�LATIVE�EMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political AfiUiatlon CONS1TI'UENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Rossell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel StJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY,Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minne dosa Crescen twood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATIILIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Trm MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Norma McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon.

WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas StNorbert StJohns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonn et Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirldield Plllk FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

3305 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 10, 1994 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS MATI'ER OF PRIVILEGE Discipline and Assignme nt of Judges Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I rise today on a matter of privilege. This is a serious matter, and this is my first opportunity to do so. The issue is regarding the discipline and the assignment of judges, and the role of the chief provincial court judge by statute, The Provincial Court Act. The member for St. Johns (Mr.

Mackintosh) has questioned my position as minister in what he calls , and I quote, effectively disciplining the only judge who has spoken against this backlog Mansard, June 8, 1994, and statements that he has made in the media. Mr. Speaker, I had no involvement. This is entirely within the jurisdiction of the chief judge. The chief judge deals with the assignment of judges to courts. The chief judge dealt wi th this matter and controls placements. Mr. Speaker, the member for St. Johns has maligned my reputation as Attorney General by this inference.

There fore, I move, seconded by the government House leader (Mr. Ernst), that this matter be referred to the Committee on Privileges and Elections and that the member table his evidence or withdraw his charge unequivocally and apologize to this minister and to this House. Mr . Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I was somewhat swprised that the Attorney General, in attempting to establish a matter of privilege, made virtually no reference to Beauchesne, and I suspect there may be a reason for that because I believe the minister is essentially engaging in debate.

I realize the minister was not present when the comments were made, but if the minister would care to check in Hansard, the comments she is all eging in her matter of privileg� member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) was very clear in asking the question: "What role did the government play in effectively disciplining the only judge who has spoken up against this backlog?" Mr.

Speaker, that was a question, and I realize the minister sometimes misunderstands the role of Question Period, but the role of Question Period is for opposition members to ask questions of the gove rnment and, indeed, we also expect, on occasion, that the government may even answ er some of those questions. Mr.

Speaker, how can an opposition member, our Justice critic, who has spoken out repe atedly about our con cerns about the handling of the justice system by this mini ster-how can it be considered a matter of privilege when our member, who has risen on almost a daily basis to raise questions about what is happe ning to our justice system in this province-how can that be a matter of privilege?

Does it satisfy any of the provisions in Beauchesne, Otations 24, 25, 267 In fact, if the minister would care, or others on that side who perhaps advised the minister on this ill-fated matter of privileg�I would suggest that not only is the minister's matter of privilege not a matter of privilege, it is not even close to a prima facie case. If the minister would care to read Beauchesne about what a matter of privilege is, she will find that it is the privilege of members, in fact it is the obligation of members to be asking the types of questions that the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has been asking.

I will quote, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion on this so the minister perhaps will take the time to read about what Parliamentary privilege is. This is

3306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 Otation 24: "Parliamentary privilege is the swn of the peculiar rights enjoyed by each House collectively as a constituent part of the High Court of Parliament, ..•. The privileges of Parliament are rights which are 'abso lutely necessary for the due execution of its powers '. They are enjoyed by individual Members, because the House cann ot perform its functions without unimpeded use of the services of its Mem bers, and by each House for the protection of its members and the vindication of its own authority and digni ty." I submit to you, Mr.

Speaker, that one of the fundamental priv ileges of this House is the right of any member to ask a question of a government minister and get an answer, not this so-called matter of privilege . • (100 5) Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, on the matter of privile ge, the government is clearly very hypersensitive to the issue of backlogs in the Family Violence Court. First of all, the important point has to be made that my question was not addressed to the Attorney General (Mrs. Vodrey). There was no personal charge, let alone a charge . It was addressed to the government .

I said: What role did the government have in effectively disciplining the only judge who spoke up against the backlogs in Family Violence Court? A second point is, we have to look at the context within which this question was raised. Manitobans have been raising concerns with me on a daily basis about Family Violence Court. Since Judge Meyers ' eff ective disc ipline , they have been raising that issue with me. It is my responsibility as a member of this House to be vigilant for Manito bans, particularl y in the context of the FJISt Minister (Mr.

Filmon) having got up in this House on the issue of a retirement package and made the comment that provincial court judges, in his view , were employees of the government of Manit oba. That has set the judicial system back centuries in western democracy. With that attitude , that question is called for. Furthermore, we have seen how the application has been of the Film on Fridays to the courts. Even more particular, we have seen Manitobans witness a back-room deal with judges on their retirement package between the cabinet and judges.

There is such a thing as independence of the judiciary from the government of Manit oba. That que stion , which is a subject of the matter of privile ge, was a necessity in this province . I have a role, and what this matter of privile ge is, is a sad attempt to stifle public debate and stifle the role of the opposition in examining the administra tion of justice in this province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank all honourable members for trying to advise the Chair on this matter. I will take this matter under advisement, and I will come back to the House with a ruling .

ROUTT:NEP ROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am tabling, in accordance with

Section 42 of The Ombudsman Act, and I am pleased to submit the 24th Annual Report of the Ombudsman, covering the cal endar year January 1, 1993, to December 31, 1993. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the atte ntion of honourable members to the gal lery, where we have with us this morning in the Speak er's Galler y, eight visito rs from the Women 's Committee of the MGEU, and they are under the direction of Ms. Myrna Philli ps. Also, from the R.B. Russell Vocational School , we have twenty-five Grade 12 students under the dire ction of Mr. Paul Sutherland.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). From the Treheme Elementary School, we have twenty -seven Grade 7 students under the direction of Mr. Craig Spencer. This school is located in the constituency of the Speaker. Also, we have representatives of the ACCESS program in Manitob a. · On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning.

June 10 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 330 7 • (10 10 ) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD ACCESS Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Spea ker, we have asked repeatedly about the cutbacks, the 20 percent reduction in spending for the ACCESS program in the province of Manit oba. The ACCESS program, of course, has been very, very successful over the years in training people for educa tional positi ons, for social wotk positions, for doctors ' positions, for engineering stud ents and graduates.

It had a tremendous success, and ev en whe n the former Lyon government looked at it in 1979, they came to the same conclusion that many of us have come to, that we have a return on our investment in teuns of people being employed in the province of Manitoba in careers that provide dignity and stature in our communities, Mr. Speaker.

In 1990, when we asked this question about the fe deral governm ent's reductions in the ACCESS program, the Premi er of the province said, and I quote: We have argued the case for BUNTEP and ACCESS programs for these kinds of human resources within our education and training system , that we beli eve are absolutely critical and neces sary for the future development of our aboriginal people and for many of our disadvantaged people, and is a tremendous inves tment , Mr. Speaker. That is what the government said in 1990. In 1994, they reduced that investment by some 20 percent.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey): What impact and how many students will no longer be able to return to the ACCESS program and return to their educational programs as a result of the 20 percent reduction made by this government? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, this is the third occasion on which members opposite have asked questions in the House dealing specifically with ACCESS. Many of the responses and answers that I give will be those that have been on the record now since the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) tabled the budget.

Last year within the ACCESS pro gram, there were some 312 new intakes under that program. There will be that same number this year, the new entry in 1994-95. There will be no change in the impact on intake with respect to the pr ogram. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter from the University of Manitoba to the minister's own deputy minister, indicating the administrative problems and human proble ms dealing with the government 's arbitrary change of a 20 percent reduction in this budget. · The minister talks about no change in in take.

We have been listening to people who have been directly affected. Here in Manit oba, we have a $200-mi llion increase in the amount of money this government is spending on social assistan ce, and it does not make any sense at all to us to have gover nments cutting back on investing in education and traini ng when we see a massive increase in spending on the social assistance side . Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the minister: What does be say in teuns of his previous questions to six students in Lynn Lake who are in the BUNTEP program who no longer will be able to stay in that BUNTEP program as a direct result of the Conservative cutback of 20 percent funding for those students and for that program of ACCESS? •

(1015) Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Spe aker, the 20 percent reduction ref erenced by the member, roughly 61 percent of that will be institutional costs . Most of the reductions will be at the institutions themselves. The other 40 percent represents the direct benefit provided to students. Mr. Speaker, I again point out that,

whereas the average nonrepayable student and academic support received by a stud ent '9 3- 94 was ap proximately $11, 800, that was for one year, nonrepayab le. What we are doing for the sake of . equity is saying to all students, particular ly those who have good op portunity for employment at the end of graduation, certainly there is some

3308 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 incumbency upon every person requiring support, that the first tranche of that support-$165 a week -should be required to be taken out by way of loan to be fair across all of the roughly 35,000 post-sec ondary students within the province of Manitoba. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I do not know how this government can talk about equity. Here is a minister who, as a previous Minister of Finance, app roved a $43.5-million loss projection coverage for the Winnipeg Jets and at the same time was cutting back 20 percent from the ACCESS students of Manitoba.

Here is a government that increases up to $12 million in the corporate training grants right across Manitoba while it cuts the guts out of the ACCESS program here in Manitoba. I would ask the minister to start looking at the human dimensions of his cutbacks. Mr. Speaker, I asked the question about the six students at Lynn Lake.

What does the minister say in terms of the human impact and the equity to Michelle, a single mother of three children who has enrolled in this program, has completed three years of university education and can no longer continue that education so she can have the career in the area she is trained after the government has reduced their commibnent by some 20 percent to this good solid invesbnent in the education and training and the economy of Manitoba? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Speaker, we are asking some ACCESS students, by way of loan, to pick up the cost of $165 a week.

Every dollar beyond that required will be by way of the public purse suppo rt, every dollar beyond $165 a wee k regardless of the need, not asking one dollar of it to be paid back. The Leader of the NDP party who has such an aversion to debt, ergo the reference to the Winnipeg Jets, can maybe explain why it is he has no problem with the province having a $300-million or $400-million deficit. Maybe he can explain why it is he has no principles with respect to these issues other than trying, indeed, to play to an audience because of a policy change.

We made this change notwithstanding the fact that this government stood in the breach of a federal government which withdrew funding for a number of years. We have committed millions of dollars, in some areas $10 million a year, and in some years $10 million a year, to this program. Unfortunately, we cann ot continue to make that contrib ution. We have asked some of the students to take on some level of indebtedness with respect to their study. ACCESS Programs Student Loan Eligibility Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Since April I have tried to explain to the Minister of Education what will be the impact of requiring ACCESS students to go to the Canada Student Loan Program. We have to remember that these students, many of them, are in 11-month programs where they cannot get the summer employment to repay the loans. They are not equal in that sense to other students. The Canada Student Loan Program has ann ual caps which are too low for students with families to survive. The Canada Student Loan Program has cumulative funding caps which do not meet the specific needs of some ACCESS students.

The Canada Student Loan Program does not even meet the basic needs of some of the expensive programs in medicine, and the Canada Student Loa n Program has rigid asset requirements which do not meet the needs of ACCESS students. My question for the minister is: Wi ll he determine exactly how many ACCESS students cannot return to school next year as a result of his policy requiring Canada Student Loans? Will he make a commibnent to enable all students in the program to complete their degree? Bon. Clayton Mann ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, the member for Wolseley knows better than any member of this House with respect to the ACCESS programming and the lack of caps. These are all of the support policies in place: basic student allowances; rental subsidies; transportation allowances; day care expenses; medical; dental; optical; other student travel; special support; tuition; books and supplies; program books. All of those are paid for beyond the Canada Student Loan caps. They are all paid for until, if the student's household income

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3309 exceeds the Stats Canada low-income cutoff, an equivalent amount is deducted. Mr. Speaker, that cap for an ACCESS student: on e-person family, $16 ,000; three person s, $25,000; six persons, $37,000. Those are the caps that are in place, not the Canada Student Loans caps to which the member refers. She has to be honest. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, will the minister tell the House whether in those programs where there are practicums involved-the northern Bachelor of Social Work and the special premedical programs and other medical progr ams-whether those students will be eligible for funding during the periods of placement? Will he tell us how the one-month break that most ACCESS students have -the one month, not the five months that other students have-will be handled under this program, and will he finally answer the question: How many students cann ot retum- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has already put her question. •

(1020) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, $165 a week. That is what we are asking students to assume by way of debt. It is not that they will be short $165. For those students that justify the need, as every other student within the province does under the criteria put into place under the Canada Student Loan program, if the need is justified, the money will be there. But what we are saying is, those individuals who are virtually guaranteed a job upon graduation, there is some incumbency that they be treated no diff erently from any other student in the province and that they encourage some debt in support of their study.

Federal Funding Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, the issue is, under this program they are not going to graduate, and that is what I am asking the minister. How many will- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 'Ibis is not a time for debate. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister to meet directly and immediately with his federal counterparts to insist that they reinstate their share of ACCESS funding and enable those existing students to complete the program. Bon. Cayton Mann ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I do not think there is a member in this House that does not understand and accept how good this program has been in many dimensions. There is not a member in this House. When it was first entered into, it was a shared program between the federal and provincial governments. Over the course of a number of years, the province now has been asked to take on all of the funding. It is a very rich program, but to the extent that we can no longer have it in place and support it completely on our own ticket as we have in the past, there has had to be some changes in the program.

We will try to maintain it, and, yes, every time we meet with the federal government -and it is pointed out to us by other provinces and everybody that views it, it is a good program . Mr. Speaker, the fact is, unless the federal Liberal government comes forward and gives us more money, as used to be the case, we will have to proceed with the changes within the program. ACCESS Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is for the Minister of Education . I have listened to the minister's comments in response to the questions of my friends in the official opposition.

My question for the minister: He keeps saying, as a defence to these cuts, that in fact it is not going to have a negative impact on enrollment in the ACCESS program. That is what he says, and that is one of his key defences of this 20 percent cut. Last year, Mr. Speaker, the program was cut 11 percent, and enrollment dropped 15 percent. Now, Mr. Speaker, how can he stand today and say that with a 20 percent cut, there will not be a · cut in enrollment? The facts say differently. History proves diff erently.

3310 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 Will the minister be open and honest with the members of this Legislature and acknowledge that this is, in fact, going to deplete enrollment in this critical pro gram which he himself has ju st ind icated is a good program? Bon. Clayton �anness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the member does not have to call into question my openness and honesty on this issue. The fact is the changes made in '93-94 did have impact on intake, and again, that was a decision that had to be made after a number of consid erations . Mr.

Speaker, when we this year asked students , either coming into the program or who are in the program, to unde rtake some of the responsibility with respect to indebtedness , we still believe and we know that there will be no impact on intake because there is a waiting list. There is a waiting list to come into this program. Many of the students coming into this program-as indeed when the ACCESS evaluation and the Hikel report is tabled , it will show a growing number of students did not need the level of supp ort provided.

So as they are called upon then to put up more of their own resources, it will open and free the opportuni ties for others who are on the waiting list. That is why the intakes under this policy change will not be reduced,

whereas last year they were reduced somewhat. • (1025 ) Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, that is simply ridiculous. The minister knows better, and those who will continue to be able to access this program are those who will be able to afford it and who have money. That was the point of this program, was to provide for people who did not have those reso urces but did want to educate themselves . Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question for the minis ter: The Roblin commission report was much heralded by this government and was brought down, and they have consistently indicated, this minister has ind icated his support for that report.

That report says, page 49, and it studied this ACCESS program: "Viewed in their totality, the Access programs have clearly been successful in pioneering the integration of Aboriginal people into post-secondary education." Recommendation: 'That the Access Fund be maintained and, in years where the operating grant are increased , that the Fund be sub ject to a similar in crease." How does this minister justify a 20 percent cut in this program that the Roblin commission itself studied and decided was a good program? There is not a word about cutting that program in this Roblin commission report. Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, you see, the Leader of the Liberal Party fails to distinguish between the ACCESS programs and the ACCESS fund. His Education critic should probably have helped him on this. Mr. Speaker, there are two different issues. The ACCESS fund is seed money that is given by the Un iversities Grants Commissi on to the un iversity to promote and foster a new program area, and what Roblin was saying basically is: Maintain the fund, but make sure that the univ ersity funding globally takes over the responsibility after two or three years so that the fund then can move to a new focal area.

The reference to the programs and the fund are not related at all, so the member does not even know the basis on which he asked his question. He is wron g. He is dead wron g, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Edwards: I am sure the minister will peruse the record and want to conect himself. Maybe he should have read the report on page 49, which talked about the ACCESS programs having been clearly successful in pio nee ring the integration of aboriginal people into post-secondary education. The minister knows that Roblin supported those programs.

My final question for the minister: Today, the labour statistics came forward from Statistics Canada and indicated that unemployment for women under the age of 24 has gone up 3 percent in the last month and has gone up 5.4 percent in the last year. Mr. Speaker, women under the age of 24 are a target group and represent a large user group of the ACCESS programs. Why is this minister cutting

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 33 11 that program when we already know that group is experiencing ser ious problems in finding employment in our economy? Why is be further worsening the probl em for that particular group? Mr. MaDness: Mr. Speaker, it is because of that group basically- An Honourable Member: You do not care •••• Mr. Maoness: The member shoots across from his chair that I do not care about them. What a callous, foolish rem ark.

It is because there is such employment success for the graduates within that group that I would ask the member, if he is really serlous, that he makes an appeal, seeing he is so close to Mr. Axworthy and Mr. Chretien, to ask the federal government to re-es tablish the federal funding in this area. To the extent that he is successful, I am sure the Tre asury Board of our government would reconsider and want to review again the amount of funding so that not only would we maintain the level of intake, we could probably increase it.

That is the challenge I put to the Leader of the Liberal Party. • (10 30) ACCESS Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Geo rge Dickes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, I am please d to have the support of the current Liberal Leader (Mr. Edwards). Regrettably , he was silent when the curre nt federal government refused to reinstate ACCESS funding in their budget ea rlier this year. He had the opportunity then. My question is for the Minister of Education.

Rather than just bl ame the fede ral government, will he finally agree that the ACCESS program should be a higher priority than wasting $43 million on the Jets owners, $4 million on Connie Curran and $600,000 on political advertising by the Lotteries Foundation? Bon. Clayton Maon ess (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, nobody has to tell me or refer or ask me to give this program pr iority.

I was the chair of Treasury Board for many years where year after year after year, as we went through the difficult decisiom around developing yet another budget, that ACCESS continued to come forward, again, as one of the very rich programs of supp ort within government, but yet one of the very laudable pr ograms. Mr. Speaker, this government did everything possible through those years .

I can remember when the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism supported by the Minister of Education of the day, made at least one if not two trips down to Ottawa to try and make the plea that their level of support be mainta ined. We understand the value of this program. We have always, as a government, given it a very extremely high priority, I would say the highest priority with respect to education outside of regular instruction in the K to 12 setti ng. We have shown and demonstrated our priority with respect to this program over the years. Mr. Dickes: Mr.

Speaker, is the minis ter aware of a 1979 study done by the previous Comervative government that found that in terms of transfer payments saved and taxes paid, program graduates pay back in seven years n ot only the cost of their own education, but the cost of dropouts as well? Mr. Maoness: Mr. Speak er, I am fully aware of thaL That is why, to make this a program which is fairer and which can reach out to a larger cross

section of people , we are asking those people who become part of it to assum e some indebtednes s, $165 a week. Every dollar required after that, every dollar up to in some cases a family of three people, up to $25,000 will be paid for by the public purse. We agree. Mr. Dickes: Mr. Speaker , will the House have to censure this minister a second time before he gets the message that cutting ACCESS funding was not just wrong morally? It is a stupid decision that will increase costs to the taxpayers of this pro vince. Is he aware of that? Mr. Ma on ess: We ll, Mr.

Speaker, the House will do what the House wants to do with me. I am sorry. I am one of 57 people . The point is, Mr. Speaker, during these times of incredible fis cal and re venue shor tfall to . governments everywhere , difficult decisions have to be made.

Whereas over six budgets this

3312 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 govemment bas been able to continue to maintain the level of support for the ACCESS program, we have changed the program so as to maintain the intake and yet call upon so me greater responsibility for the individual student by way of indebtedness over the period of time. Mr. Speaker, I am absolutely convinced, given the success of the pr ogram, that those graduates will have an oppo rtunity to pay back a first level of student loan, and indeed, they will feel better.

Ultimately in the end run, I believe students will fe el better in the fact that the y have made a con tribution, a direct contribution, to their own education. ACCESS Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, there are many people in our society who continue to face many barri ers, and this is no more true than for aboriginal people in northern Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I represent a constituency in which many communities do not have roads , do not have sewer and water, do not have complete school ing, and the ACCESS program bas worlced to bring those people, northern aboriginal people, into the mainstream of our society.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education, who talks about this being a richly funded program and talks about contributions, when will the Minister of Education recognize that this program is not dealing with stude nts living in Tuxedo in half -million dollar houses, that it is targeted towards the disadvantaged in the core area of Winnipeg and northern Manitob a, and that it is absolutely unacceptable that a government, a provincial govemme nt, would cut this program more than any other program in this provincial budget? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, I cannot say this in a categorical sense, although I am pretty sure I am on solid ground. We are the only pr ovince in Canada that has this program to the level of support offered. That tells me, Mr. Speaker, that obviously, given the fact that we have a program at the levels of support that we have, it is a rich program. The member can try and draw in the class warfare and the struggles. He can try and make ref erence to Tuxedo. He can try again to talk and draw in for his own political purpo ses--[ interjection] Wel l, they tell me to table the rep ort.

It is doing things differently by the Roblin commission. This is a public document and the Leader of the NDP should know that He bas read it at least five times. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Ye s, Mr. Speaker, the minister bas quoted from the Hikel report repeatedly in this House. He bas never tabled that report in this House. The rights of members in this Ho use, I think , are to have full access, full information that the govemme nt bas commissioned with taxpayers ' money. What is the govemment hiding? Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member does not have a point of order. ••• Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Educ ation and Training , to finish with his response. Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Speaker, the Leader is losing his cool over there. I have a document, and he assum es it is the one that I have not tabled as yet. Mr. Speaker, my re sponse to the member's question is no diffe rent from the many I have given previously.

I suppose I can embellish my response somewhat by sa ying-and I say this in response more to the Leader of the Liberal Party, who gets kind of slippery with respect to remarlcs, because this is what page 49 said of the Roblin report , and I quote: Viewed in their totality, the ACCESS program s have clearly been succes sful in pioneering the integra tion of aboriginal people into post-secondary education. We note, however, that in important respe cts, the program s represent temporary solutions to larger- and longer-term manners. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member refused to read that into the record, did he not?

So the point-the

June 10 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3313 smooth member, of course, from St. James, slides off the path- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Manness: My responses hold, that I have made several times. Mr. Ashton: One of the most unfair aspects of this governm ent's policy, Mr. Speaker, is that it has in mids tream cut off students who have been taken into the program under the original crit eria.

There is nothing more unfair than this, and I would like to ask the minister-and if he wants the opportunity to find o ut the impact this is having, he can talk to many of the people who are here today in this building who are part of the ACCESS program. Wil l he now do the right thing, Mr. Speaker, and at least, at a bare minimum, immediately reinstate all the existing students under the same criteria as when they entered the program? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speak er, I assum e and I would believe our gove rnme nt would reconsider if the fe deral gov ernm ent will help us in this program and re-establish some of the level of support they used to provide . Under those conditions, I am sure our government would want to look at this funding issue in a new context. Mr. Ashton: I have one final question, Mr. Speaker. We have heard a lot about the Wmnipeg Jets the last fe w days, and one thing the people always say is that prof essional sports players provide a role model in our socie tY.

Well, I am wo ndering if the Minister of Education might consider that the real role models in our society, particularly in northern Manitoba, are the many people who have completed the ACCESS program and do the right thing, not spend $43 million on prof essional sports players , but at least reinstate the money to the ACCESS programs to provide the real role models for northern people . Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Speaker, I know if the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) were here, he would insist on answering that question. Mr.

Speaker, there was a time in Estimates, and the record will sh ow, when the NDP Leader indicated their party did not want to make the Jets a political issue, and the member· opposite, the Leader, said that as part of the record. So, Mr. Speaker, obviously, the Leader of the NDP, his wont is not worth very much, because he said that on the record. • (1 040) Point of Order Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , the comments made by the Minister of Education are clear ly unparliamentary .

In the context of us asking him to live up to his commitments to the ACCESS students, that he made in this House , I would ask him to withdraw that and live up to his own wont on the ACCESS program . Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order, but, indeed, again, for the watching public-you know, there are many up here in the gallery, indeed there are many watching on this TV, I would caution all honourable members, pick and choose your words very, very carefully . MTS Yellow Pages Adult Video Advertisements Bon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportatio n): I took as notice on Tuesday a question from the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) on coupon books that MTS had dis tributed. Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the House that MTS certainly has very stringent guidelines on the Yellow Pages and the kind of advertising in the Yellow Pages, but this is a coupon book we are talking about. I can tell the member that MTS has indicated to me that they will be more diligent in the future in terms of those guidelines, in terms of moral responsibility and the kind of copy that is used in advertising in any fash ion.

ACCESS Programs Funding Reduction Mr. Paul Edward s (Lead er of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I remind honou rable members who continue the debate that the fe deral government, six weeks ago, increase d the student loan limit for the first time in eight years from

3314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 $3,600 to $5,400. This governm ent clawed it back. I also remind honourable membeiS opposi te that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), in January of this year, had nothing but praise for the federal government 's approach to transfer payments and indicated it was a refreshing start of a new era with the five-year planning on transfer payments . The Minister of Education (Mr.

Manness ), his col league, has just said and put on the record, and I believe I have the quote correctly: There are incredible fiscal and revenue shortfalls, and as a result, difficult decisions have to be made. That was his statem ent. My question for the Minister of Ind ustty, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey) is, will he make one of those difficult decisions in this time of incredible revenue shor tfall and go to the committee gove rning the Wmnipeg Jets and ask them to find ways to cut back from the $43.5 million speculated loss on the Jets and find $2 million, one-twentieth of that amount, to put back into the ACCESS program to help the people in this province who want to become educated and work in our society? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, as we totally expected when we tabled that inform ation on the pro jected losses of the Winn ipeg Jets Hockey Oub, certain membeiS are taking advantage in trying to score political points by pointing to the long-tenn, worst-case scenario as opposed to what has realistically happe ned to date in te rms of the actual costs under that agreement. I think if they look at that agree ment, which I am sure they will , they will know what the costs to date are, in fact, and that to date , to the end of March 1994, there has been a cost to the province of some $2.4 million.

During that same time frame, we have received direct taxation revenues to the three levels of govermnent of some $35 milli on. Really, in answer to the Leader of the Liberal Party's question, I think we are all waiting for the Burns committee report. That is a report that is mandated to deal with the long-term viability of the Jets, the need for a facility in Manitoba, the ability to address a facility in Manitoba. So all of that can have an impact on these longer-term projections of what these losses might ultimately be as it relates to the Wmnipeg Jets .

I do want to correct the Leader of the Liberal Party on one particular issue. He talks about the enhancing of the Canada Student Loans Program by the new fe deral Liber al government. My undeiStanding is-and certainly the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) can provide much more inf ormation on this-in effect what they have done under that decision, Mr. Speaker, is to offload more of a cost onto provincial governments because now the provincial governments are in from dollar one under student loan assistance- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Edwards: My further question is for either the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey) or the Minister of Education. The minister has made much of the $11,000 per year per student that is government grant. The average player 's salary of the Winnipeg Jets is $440,000. So let us talk about the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member is trying to put his question. Mr. Edwar ds : Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question for either of those ministeiS is, will this government now acknowledge that the $11, 000 per year that goes to those students , supporting them going through school, is very quickly recovered, given the success rate these students have in getting employment In fact, on average, in two years of employment they recover that $11,000. Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, what do we say to the rest of the students in the provi nce, many who have , upon graduation, without much of a guarantee of work, total student loan and debt to pay off anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000? What do we say to them in the name of equity and fairness when there is not anywhere close to a guarantee of employment?

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3315 We have made this move with great deliberation. We have done it in the name of equity. Mr. Edwards: It is clear that by these cuts there is now a guarantee of unemployment. My final question for the minister: 1be minister appears to put all students into the same basket and suggest that they should all be treated eq ually and the same, and it would be unfair to the other students .

Is he questioning the principle that those who qualify for this program are indeed different and that they go through two panels and a two-day workshop in testing to even qualify for this progra m? Is he questioning the principle that we should have special treatment for those who come into the system with disadv antages, which means that they never will get a decent education- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mr. Maoness: 1be Leader of the Liberal Party is at a slight disadvantage because he does not have before him the ACCESS review that was done .

I am making every effort to try and have that made available to the House before we rise. But that would point out that the

preamble, indeed, the rationale that he uses with respect to his question is not correct. There are a growing mmber of individuals who are in that program, probably none that are in the gallery today, but certainly-in spite of the two day criteria that the member talks about, the judgment by way of those criteria-there are a growing number of individuals in the program who do not merit the level of support, the $12,000 per year. So that is a dimension to this decision also. ACCESS Programs Federal Funding Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education and Training has, for the first time, said in this House that the governm ent of Manitoba would reco nsider cuts if the fe deral Liberals lived up to their election commitments from last fall. My question to the minister: Would he agree to immediately propose suc h a cost-sh ared arrangement with the federal government to ensure the ongoing future of ACCESS? Bon. Clayton Maoness (Minister of Education and Training): This is a very high priority, and this program will continue . There is no way this program will not continue because it is a very high priority to us.

But I am prepa red to consider making an offe r under some of the stra tegic initiatives put forward by Mr. Axworthy within his $600-million or $700- million envelope that is supposed to reach out to all pro gramming across the land and ask him to accept it as a new strategic initiative, although in all honesty , it is not new. It has been in existence for a number of years. I do not want to create false hopes for an ybody, Mr. Speaker, but I have no difficulty in trying to present to the federal government for consideration the ACCESS program under the strategic initiatives that they are provid ing. St.

Boniface Hospital Reorganization Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, we are inf onned this morning that yet another plan for St. Bonif ace Hospital is going to be announced with respect to management changes . Will the minister table these changes to management that have been announced at St. Bonif ace Hospital? Will he for once table the plans so the public and the patients can have access to this prior to it occurring? • (10 50) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I believe the honourable member is responding to radio reports this morning. I have nothing that I can table for the honourable member.

It might be wise for the honourable member to let the administration and staff at St Bonif ace Hospital look after the matter which is going to be the subject of discussion at the hospital next week. I have no further inf onnation than the honourable member does.

3316 LEGISLA1lVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 Health Care System Reform Co-ordination Mr. Dave Chomiak (Klldonan): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary: We had the $4-million Connie Cmran fiasco. We have provincial reorganization. We have yet another plan at St. Boniface. Will the minister finally admit that there is chaos and lack: of co-ordination in the whole health care system? Will he advise the House what this lack: of co-ordination and chaos-what effec t this will have on patient care? Ron. James McCrae (Minister of Health): The honourable member seems to have chaos on his mind every day.

Maybe it is left over from when Michael Deeter sat around the table with the honourable member's colleagues when they were in government here in Manitoba, because Michael Deeter was the chief public servant here in Manitoba when the New Democrats were in office. When they were thrown out of office in Manitoba, Mr. Deeter went to Ontario to preside over the chaos there. Mr. Deeter with his $140,000 salary in Ontario made sure that 5,000 hospital beds were closed with no regud whatsoever for its effects.

Here in Manitoba, we will take a phased approach to health care refonn dealing with the needs of the patients first and with due regud to the sensitivities with regud to the labour issues, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions bas expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. [interjection] Order, please. Hansud is picking up some sort of conversation in the back of the Ouun ber here. It appears it might be the words being spoken by the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orcbud). I am not quite sure here now.

On June 8, 1994, I took under advisement language used by the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) during Question Perio d. The minister was responding to a question from the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) who bad commented that the minister had provided half an answer. The honourable Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) stated: "it was only a half-asked question, too, .... " The minister , when I indicated that I was going to review Hansud, indicated his hope that Hans8Id correctly set out precisely what he bad said, noting that the wold he used had the letter "k" in it.

I took the opportunity to review Hansud and found that indeed the wold used was "half-asked" rather than a similar sounding wold that, of course, no honourable member would use in this House. There fore, there was no point of order. NONPO�CALSTATEMENT 1994 Social Work Gold Medalist Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Bur rows have leave to make a nonpol itical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, today I want to pay tribute to the 1994 gold medalist in Soc ial Work at the University of Manitoba, Ms. Adele Kupp, who achiev ed a 3.95 grade point average.

Adele is a very bright individual who has been an exceptional A-plus student. She is to be commended for this rema rkable achiev ement since, in addition to studies, she has the responsibility of raising three children on her own. On top of this, she has been a foster parent of special needs teenagers from Child and Family Services and curre ntly has two boys in her care . She remarked that she could have used a good wife to help her with all these responsibi lities. It bas been my pleasure to meet Adele at the Wmnipeg Education Centre.

I wish her well in her new career as a social worker, and I hope that all honour able member s will join me in congratulating Adele Kupp. House Business Ron. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Spea ker, first, a matter of House business . On the Notice Paper is a notice for the Standing Co mmittee on Public Utili ties and Natural

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3317 Resources to consi der the report of the Workers Compensation Board on June 14. I would like to cancel that meeting . One of the critics is unavailable. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable government House leader for that information. ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, will you call Second Readings as listed on the Order Paper. SECOND READINGS Bill15- The Law Society Amendment Act Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefans on), that Bill 15, The Law Society Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Soci�� du Barre au, now be read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to move second reading of Bill l5, The Law Society Amendment Act As honourable members know, the Law Society of Manitoba is a self-governing profession whose powers and duties are set out in The Law Society Act. From time to time, the society requests that changes be made to The Law Society Act. The act was last amended in 1992. Mr.

Speaker, the changes that are proposed in this bill have been proposed by the Law Society , primaril y to improve its discipline process . Members will note the several changes contained here in that respect. The changes are designed to improve the soc iet y's ability to investigate complaints about lawyers and generally to clarify the complaints processed. The changes have been the subject of discussion in the profession , as the Law Society co nsults its membership through a process of publication of proposed changes before approaching the Minister of Justi ce to reques t amendments to this act. (Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Acting Speaker, there are a number of changes in the bill that I would like to bring to the attention of all honourable membe rs. First, the bill gives the society broader powers to obtain the files of a lawyer who is the subject of an investigation by the society and more clearly sets out the rights of a lawyer and the cli ents of a lawyer in a circumstance where the lawyer's practice is taken over. As well, the bill permits the society to release information to the public as to whether a matter is under investigation by the society.

Becau se the act now provides that the proceedings of the society are confidential, the society has not been able to comment publicly on whether a complaint has been received or a matter is under investigation. This bill will clarify its right to do so. The bill also adds a new provision to require the society to disclose information to law enforcement authorities about possible criminal activity when that kind of inf or mation is uncovered during an investigation of a lawyer under the act. This is an exception to the current provision that requires the proceedings of the society to be confidenti al.

Two other matters addressed by this bill; first, it provides for the operation of prepaid legal serv ices pla ns in Manitoba by cl arifying that such arrangements are not the unauthorized practice of law. Sec ondly, Mr. Acting Speaker, the bill adds a new

section to permit a lawyer from another country to provide legal advice in Manitoba concerning the laws of the other country while giving the Law Society some control over the lawyer 's practice in this province. The Law Society will ensure that the lawyer is licensed to practice in his or her jurisdiction. Therefore, it gives some protection to Manitobans who consult such a lawyer. Mr. Acting Speaker, I believe that these changes to The Law Society Act will result in better service to the people of Manitoba by the Law Society as . the governing body of persons providing legal services to the people of the province. I will be pleased to discuss the provisions of the bill in more

3318 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 detail at the committee stage on the bill, and I will defer any further comment about the bill until that time. •

(1100) Thank you very mucll, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I move, seco nded by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Asht on), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Billl�The Provincial Conrt Amendment Ad Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Jus tice and Attorney General): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 16, The Provincial Court Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Cour provincial e, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. V odrey: I am pleased to move to second reading of Bill 16 , The Provincial Court Amendment Act, which amends the procedures of The Provincial Court Act dea ling with the handling of complaints of judicial misc ondu ct. These amendments are based on and largely follow a 1989 report of the Law Ref orm Commission of Manitoba dealing with the independence of provincial judges.

In preparing these amendm ents, my department sought comments from judges of the provincial courts and other courts in Manitoba, as well as the Law Society of Manitoba, the Manitoba branch of the Canadian Bar Association and other interested groups representing women, aboriginal people and the disabled.

In introducing this topic, the Manitoba Law Ref orm Commission said, and I quote: The basic reason for any type of judicial discipline is to maintain pu blic confidence in the judiciary by assuring the public that judges will abide by the duties of their office and that they will be brought to account if they do not. A legal system can function only if the public accepts and abides by decisions rendered by the courts. Anything that tends to weaken the public conviction that judges are fair and impartial must be avoided . We believe that these amendments accomplish that goal.

The major innovation in these amendments , again following the recommendation of the Law Refonn Commiss ion, is the severing of the investigative prosecutorial function from the adjudicative function of the Judicial Council. Under this act, complaints will first go to the chief judge of the provincial court who can resolve a complaint only if both parties agree . The chief judge may also advise a complainant that there is a more app ropriate avenue to follow such as an appeal or refer the matter to the next stage of the proceedings which is an independent board of investigation.

If the chief judge dismisses a complaint or advises the complainant that there is a more app ropriate avenue to follow, a complainant may ask the judicial inquiry board to review that findi ng. That board, composed of three persons, has the function of in vest iga ting and, if app ropri ate, formulating a charge of judicial misconduct and prosecuting that charge . A separate body, the Judicial Council , composed of three out-of-p rovince provincial court judges, a representative of the Law Society of Manitoba and two lay persons will bear charges laid by the judicial inquiry board.

The composition of this Judicial Council is a major innovation in its use of out-of-province provincial judges. We believe this to be a step forward, as it will remove any public perception of bias and will not put Manitoba provincial court judges in the position of having to judge the conduct of their colle ague s. Although the council will contain three judges and three non judges, the chair of the council must be a judge and will have a casting vote. This procedure will meet the requirements of judicial independence that a majority of the votes be those of judges.

In addition, the coun cil is of a manageable size as our advice was that a council larger than this would become difficult to conve ne.

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3319 The range of dispositions available to the council is much broader than those available at present. Mr. Acting Speaker, these amendments will allow costs to be ordered in favour of or against a judge and will also provide for possible older of cost against a judge after resignation. The amendments also allow for a hearing to continue following resignation in a broader context if the council fe els that it can make recommendations that would aid in the administration of justice. These amendments open the process up to the public.

Once a charge is laid, that charge will be public. Hearings will be public, unless there is a good reason to have in-camera hearings , and the decisions of the council will be public. The amendments require that inf onnation about the process for filing a complaint be available in courthouses throughout the provi nce, and that persons who have difficulty be given assi stance in preparing a complaint. Finally, an annual report will be tabled summ arizing inf onn ation about the complaints to further enhance accountability. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I will be pleased to go into greater detail on all of these amendments at committee . Thank you. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill17-Th e City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 17, The City of Winnipeg Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Ville de Winn ipeg et app ortant des modifications cor relatives, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Acting Speaker, I am pleased to introduce for second reading Bill 17 to amend The City of Winnipeg Act. The bill has several components . The most significant components of the bill are amendments dealing with civic elections, property tax credits for home renovations, the collection of taxes and public convenience, and welf are . The other amendments in the bill correct minor typogr aphical er rors and other similar housekeeping cha nges, moving things from one

section to another

section that is deemed to be more appropriate for that category. Some of the substantive amendments I will describe . We have amendme nts, as I indicated, to the civic elections procedures. During the 1992 Winnipeg civic election, concerns were raised by voters and candidates about existing election procedures under provincial legislation. Following the election, the fonner Minister of Urban Affairs initiated a review of the election procedures pre scribed for Winnipeg under The City of Winnipeg Act and The Local Authoritie s Election Act.

In support of this initiat ive, Wmnipeg Oty Council was requested to identify changes they considered necessary in order to make the election pro cess more efficient and more accessible to the citizens of Winnipe g. We have dealt with a number of those requests from city councillors and from candidates in the pre vious election in the hopes of making the whole process more efficient and more accessible . Wmnipeg Oty Council established an ad hoc committee to prepare a report on required election-related amendm ents.

The committee's report was the subject of a public meeting on July 15, 1993, and the final report was adopted by council and forwarde d to my department in October of 1993. Based on the depar tment 's review of civic elections legislation affecting Winnipe g and the Oty Council 's request for changes and discussion with decision makers , the bill will contain the following amendments. One is changing the nomination requirements for mayoralty candidates by requiring mayoralty candidates to obtain the signatures from at least 250 electors and to make a deposit of $150 which will be repayable to the

3320 LEGISLA1TVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 candidate if the candidate receives 5 percent of the votes on election day. •

(1110) The existing legislation, as membem know, only requires mayo ralty candidates to obtain 25 signatures from 25 el ectors in order to be nominated and the result of that is, Mr. Acting Speaker, during the 1992 civic election, there were a record number of 17 mayoralty candidates and only four of those received 97 percent of the votes.

So those who were involved in the election and those of us who are witnessing the kinds of things that happen dwing an election with that number of candidates who really do not have the support of the electorate in terms of the balance of the vote, this amendment was proposed to strike a balance between attempting to defer frivolous candidates, but keeping the candidacy open to persons who have serious intenti ons and the support of the public, obviously. 1be signatures for council lom will remain at 25. They do not need to get more than 25 signatures in order to be able to run.

Of course, the $150 deposit for the mayoralty candidates is fully returnable if they get 5 percent of the vote. We have also put in the provision for more advanced polling. That was a concern that was raised and express ed, is that there was not enou gh advanced polling. So we are going to be providing mor e opportunities for advanced pol ling by requiring the city to pennit electom to vote at City Hall every day between the closing day for withdrawal of nominations and the day before election day.

Another change is to move the clos ing for nominations back one week fr om the first Wednesday in October to the last Wednesday in Septembe r. That provides more opportunity for the full electorate to be able to exercise their franchise . The city will also be given the authority to establish additional polli ng pl aces in central loc ations any time it chooses to after the closing date for no mination-after the clos ing date, pardon me, for withdrawal of nominations. As well, Mr.

Acting Speaker, the period dwing which electors can mail in their ballots will begin after the closing of nomination withdrawals OCCUIS • We are going to be increasing the time period dwing which candidates can raise funds and spend monies on their campaign. I noticed with interest in the paper this morning some comments from one council lor who obviously did not realize what the legislation said, because it was very badly interpreted and reported as if the incorrect interp retation was fact when it was not, because we are extending the opportunity for all candidates to raise money.

We are doing it in two ways; one, the mayoralty candidate having, of course, to campaign across the entire city will be given more time upfront. Mayoralty candidates will be able to begin raising funds and spending them on May 1 of an election year and conclude raising funds on March 31 of the foll owing year. The present period of time dur ing which mayoralty candidates can raise and spend money on their campaign starts 120 days before election day until January 31 following the election.

With respect to candidates who are running as council lom, the period for raising and spending funds will begin as cmrently specified in the act, 120 days before the election, but will be extended after the election from January 31 to March 31, giving council lor candidates a considerab le length of time beyond which they cmrently have to raise funds to cover their campaign costs. The

article was wrong in the Winnipeg Free Press. The councillor who spoke of it and said that nothing in this bill would allow them extra time was wrong. The reporter who cov ered it was reporting wrong information. We will also be giving the city the opportunity to speed up the proc ess of ballot coun ting by permitting the use of automated voting. That is a techno logi cal change. We see a lot of changes coming into legislation in all areas of government, not just here but across the country, that will reflect the technological age and the ability to do things with computeiS and with automated means.

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3321 In order to pemrit the use of automated voting, council will be able to pass a by-law prescribing the form of the ballo t, the procedure for voting and the counting of ballots and other related matters associated with electronic voting devices. This automated voting , Mr. Acting Speaker, is relatively new in Canada, and because it is, the bill includes a provision which would enable the Lieutena nt-Gover nor-in-Counc il to pass regulations pertaining to automated voting, should it become necessary to do so.

We will at the same time and in light of the moves towards technology pennit the city to keep the voters lists on computer and to make that list available on diskette for a fee in electronic fonn. They will still, of course, have to provide candidates with two printed copies of the voters list free of charge, and they will be pemritted to charge a small fe e for a diskette if the list is prefe :rred in an electronic fonn. We also, Mr. Acting Speaker, are going to clarify the requirements.

The requirement to fill in an audited stateme nt of election expenses and contributions appl ies not only to elected and defeated candida tes, but also to registered candidates who are not nominated or who withdrew their nomination pr eviously. Those people, we are not filing audited stat ements . We are saying they were registered candidates and if they have any ex penses, those must be put forward.

Those civic election changes I have described are ones that have City Counc il's support, and collectively these amendments are designed to modernize election proced ures to increase voter participation in civic elections by expanding the oppo rtunity for advanced polling. We also have ame ndment s, Mr. Acting Speaker, as I indicated, dealing with property tax credits for home renovations .

I am very surprised that Councillor Murray says there is nothing in this act that be likes , because this was one that be personally spoke to me about and said they very much wanted, but pe rhaps be bas not read it all and does not know what is in it. Notwithstandin g, Winni peg City Council bas indicated they would like to establish a property tax credit progra m. I have not beard them tell me that they have now changed their minds on it contrary to their original intentions , but if they have changed their mind I suppose they could let us know at committee.

They seemed to have indicated to the Free Press they do not like this any more, which swprises me. Bill 17 does contain an incentive for home owners to undertake renovations and provide an economic stimulus in creating jobs for various trades. Bill 17 contains legislation which will pennit council to issue tax credits for home renovations and to determine by by-la w the amount of credit, eligible renovations and eligible property types.

The tax credit legislation will be in effect for five years, and during the fifth year the city will be required to review the imp acts of the program and decide whether to app rove continuation of the progra m. Given that one of the key proponents of this program bas now said there is nothing in this bill that be like s, they may no t bring it in in the first instance, but still we will pass the enabling legislation that would pemlit them to make that decision. If they do not wish to proceed with it, of course, they do not need to. Amendments dealing with the collection of taxes are contained in Bill 17, Mr.

Acting Speaker. The City of Winnip eg , as you know , bas procedures relating to collection of taxes, partly under The City of Winnipeg Act and partly under The Municipal Act. The City of Winnipeg requested that we amend The City of Winnipeg Act to consolidate into one statute all the tax colle ction procedures pertaining to Winnipeg.

Just to give you one e xample of the kind of patchw ork on legisla tion on tax collection: Winnipeg is authorize d under The City of Winni peg Act to charge a penalty-interest- for late payment of taxes and is authorized under The Municipal Act to compound penalties and add them to taxes at the end of the year if the taxes remain unpaid. So what we have done with these in a similar situation is simply just to combine the

3322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 legislation and place it all under The City of Wmnipe g Act for conveni ence. The City of Winnipeg also requested an amendment to a provision which currently prohibits the city from charging a fee for the cost of preparing a statement of taxes or mears. Currently The City ofWmnipeg Act allows a fee to be charged for tax certificates which will be binding on the city in the sense that if after issuing a tax certificate the city discovers an error was made and there are mears, the city cann ot recover those taxes. •

(1120) The city has pointed out, in relation to all these proced ures, that there has been a great increase in demand for tax statements which takes staff time to prepare in the same way the tax certificates do. So the amendment in this bill pelDlits the city to charge a fee for preparing a tax statement requested by any person other than the owne r of the property . In other words, the fee will app ly to third parties only who do not have the request being made on behalf of the property owner. So the property owner will still get it for free.

The property owner can still send a person on his or her behalf to get it for free , but if a third party who does not have permiss ion of the property owner wishes it, there will be a cost recovery or partial cost recovery fee pelDlitted, should the city so desire. The provisions on tax collections will also be amended to include two provisio ns-- [interjection] Mr.

Acting Speaker, I shall not laugh when the members opposite mutter funny little things under their breath, which incidentally is contrary to the rules of our House because they are interrup ting, which we know is not allowed and we never, never do in this Chamber. [inteijection] Back on track quick, says my colleague. Indeed. We will have other provisions in here which will assist the city in clarifying issues around tax collection.

We have, for example, the prov ision which will prohibit the removal of a buildin g, moving a building off a lot, if there are still tax mears, without permiss ion of the tax collector. If the tax collector wishes to allow that to be moved, they can do that. There is another change that is being done that we fee l will help the City of Winnipeg and the cl arification of taxe s. Right now we have classi fications changing mid-year but no ability to make adjustments to the tax rolls at the time. We are going to be introducing a

section which will pelDlit the city, should they desire, to be able to act upon tax classification changes as they occur rather than having to wait until the following year. For the most part, the rest will be modernizing the language , being less prescriptive , trying to get rid of redundancies and inconsistencies, and reorganize the provisions in order to put things in proper place and follow logically as a unit in the act. We are shifting, for example, parts of the act into

Part 12 because they relate to Public Convenience and Welf are. Such legislation as for mosquito control and Dutch elm disease will come under

Part 12, because they fit there more appropri ately than they do under Buil dings, Works and Servi ces. They are not Buildings, Works and Services ; they are esse ntially Public Convenience and Welfare . Along with that, there is one change being made to

Part 12 which is considered under Public Convenience and Welfare. It is a change that regards-and is mentioned again I noticed in the paper as well today, although the full rationale was not presented with iL We have, as you know, for many years had regulations empowering the city, if they desire, to prohibit and regulate against litter, untidy premise s, noise , removal or pruning of trees which interfere with utility pol es, pipes and sewers and that type of thing. There has been a concern expressed that grass, after it grows to a certain length, can harbour mosquitoes and things of that nature.

Aside from just a cosmetic thing, there can be a nuisance value created by the proliferation of things like mosquitoes and ticks and so on in long grass. Where there is a nuisance being created because of the growth that is occurring on vacant lots or households where the vegetation bas not been contained, if there is a nuisance problem created

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3323 by items such as I have identified, the city would have the power to go and cut the grass and charge the owner for the cutting of the grass if there are concerns of that nature . 1bis would not be purely just a cosmetic thing. Mr. Acting Speaker, those are some of the changes in the bill. We hope we will be helping to assist the City of Winnipe g in improving its operations and methods of procedure . I look forward to debate on this bill , and I thank you very much for giving me the time to put these comments at second reading on the record. Thank you. Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burr ows ): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill18- The Insurance Amendment Act Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Governm ent Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 18, The Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les assuran ces, be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to Bill 18 and to provide members with some of the underlying principles behind the suggested amendments to The Insurance Act. Under this act, the uninvested funds of an insurer, that is, the day-to-day operating funds , are presently required to be kept on deposit in the name of the insurer in a bank. We have received a request from one provincial insurance company to be allowed to maintain these uninvested funds in a credit union.

As you are aware, Mr. Acting Speaker, the uninvested funds of an insurance company are those funds that are received from day to day in the form of pr emiums, et cetera, and must be maintained in a financial institution while the insurer is determining the type of longer-term instrument the money should be invested in. As well , the insurer requires liquid funds to pay claims and other operating expenses as they arise . These uni nvested funds make up a very small portion of the ass ets of an insurance company .

In order to facilitate insurance companies in their banking proced ures, we are submitting an amendment to The Insurance Act to expand the type of banking facilities to include trust compani es, credit unions and caisse populaires in cases where insurance companies desire to make deposits to those institutions. 1bis will increase the options available to insurance companies in regard to their uninvested funds . It is common practice for people who have claims under their personal insurance policies to contact their agent to report a claim.

The Insurance Act pre sently prohibits the superintendent of insurance from issuing a licence to an insurance agent to act as an adjustor. In many instances, it is inefficient for insurance agents to simply receive the report of a claim and pass the details on to the insurance company and then for the insurance company to ei ther carry out the adjust ment procedure or hire a licensed adjustor to carry out some minor investigation prior to settling the claim.

In order to facilitate the settlement of small claims and provide generally quicker, more efficient service to the public, we are proposing to allow insurance agents to adjust claims without requiring an insur ance adjustor's licence to facilitate quickly the settlement of these small claim s. The amendment will allow licensed general insurance agents to adjust the claim of a policyholder where the value of the claim is $2,500 or less , the policy has been sold by that agent or the agency of which the agent is a member and where specific authorization has been granted by the insurance company . We beli eve, Mr.

Acting Speaker, this will allow insurance companies to adjust these small claims in a most eff icient manne r. •

(1130) It is very important, however, for members to understand the conditions under which this amendment appli es. It does not allow for an agent

3324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 to become a public adjustor, but rather to adjust claims up to $2,500 where the policy bas been sold by the agent and where authorization has been granted by the insurance company. Mr. Acting Speaker, I have consulted widely within the industry, with bro kers, with insurance companies, with insurance adjustors, and it is my understanding there is general agree ment for this change amongst all

partie s. I believe these amendments are in the interest of the public, will facilitate a more effective insurance marlcetplace , and I look forward to the comments of members opposite in the debate on this bill . Mr. Steve Ashton (T hompson ): I move, se conded by the member for Bur rows (Mr. Martindal e), that debate be adjoumed. Motion agreed to. Billl9-The Mental Health Amendment Act Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Acting Spea ker, I mo ve, sec onded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. V odrey ), that Bill 19, The Mental Health Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia san� mentale ), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House . Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: I am very pleased today to introduce Bi11 19 for second reading. In addition to a few housekeeping amendmen ts, this bill will amend The Mental Health Act in two speci fic areas. The first significant area bas to do with the operation and functioning of the Mental Health Review Board. As you no doubt are aware, the review board is charged with the responsibility of hearing appeals from patients regarding any aspect of their admission and treatment in a psychiatric facility.

In the past, in order to inform itself fully of the facts of the case, the review board has typically spoken to the patient, as well as to his or her treatment team membe rs. On November 5, 1992, however, the Court of Queen 's Bench ruled that the review board could not compel a patient to speak at his or her hearing, even though he or she had initiated the application in the first place .

While this lower court decision has already been appe aled, and we are awaiting a decision from the Appeal Court, the review board bas now found itself in the uncomf ortable position of oftentimes having to reach a decision without being able to access all the necess ary inform ation. In the interim, therefore , in order to at least partially compensate for this inability to speak to the patient dire ctly , the first major amendment of this bill would permit the review board to seek a second psychiatric opinion, should they feel it is necessary in order to reach a decision regarding the matter under review .

The second specific area that this bill addresses is the broadening of the access provisions to pennit the sharing of clinical information with some of our external agen cies. As you are no doubt aware, Mr. Acting Speaker, one of the central thrusts of our mental health reform in Manitoba is the provision of funding to a variety of agencies to permit them to deliver some of the necessary mental health services in the community.

Thus, for example, the Grey Num and the Salvation Army are both operating crisis stab ilization units in Winnipeg which have significantly reduced our previ ous overreliance on acute-care beds. Cuuently , The Mental Health Act provide s that the psychiatric facility may share confidential cl inical record information only with consent or in a limited number of exceptional circumstanc es.

While our funded agencies can typically function within these current access provisions of The Mental Health Act, the possibility exists that situations could arise where access to a psychiatric facil ity's clinical inform ation is re quired and consent bas been denied. In order to ensure that this information can be shared, the second major amendment adds another clause to the exceptions to disclose provisions of The Mental Health Act.

This amendment would permit the sharing of inform ation from a clinical record of a psyc hiatric facility to an external agency if the fo llowing conditions are met: First, the agency receives some funds from government; second, the agency is providing direct care to the

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3325 patient and; third, there exists an emergency situation which precludes the obtaining of consent. Naturall y, in order to ensure that these agencies who are in receipt of such inform ation treat the material in a confidential manner, yet another amendment is su ggested that will make it an offence comparable to that which already exists for others fo r the agency to disclose the information. With these brief remarlcs, Mr. Acting Speaker, I commend this bill to the serious contemplation and support of all honoumble members of this House. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill21-The Manitoba Medical Association Dues Act Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Acting Spe aker, I mo ve, sec onded by the honoumble Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 21, The Manitoba Medical Association Dues Act (Loi sur Ia cotisation de 1 'Ass ocia tion medicale du Manitoba), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this Hou se. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Acting Speaker, today I am introducing Bill 21 for second reading. The Manitoba Medical Association is an organization representing physicians in the province of Manitoba. This legislation will provide for the statutory payment of dues to the association by physicia ns . This le gislation reflects a commitment originating from the new agree ment with the MMA. The bill is substan tially the same as the fo rmer MMA dues act.

The recent signing of the five -year agreement between the Province of Manitoba and the Manito ba Medical Association signals what I envision to be a new beginning to a co-operative relationsh ip between the two parties. The agreement recognizes that the associat ion 's various activities extend beyond the role of bargaining agency and that those activities are of direct benefit to all physicians in Manitob a. Manitoba is adopting a number of broad and innovative approaches in co-o peration with the MMA in the management of the publicly funded insured medical services program.

It is my hope and expectation that this rela tionship will be characterized by mutual respect and trust as the parties work to a common goal, the preseiVation of a fiscally sound universal health care system for Manitobans. This legislation will provide the association with the security necessary to undertake the additional responsibilities contemplated by the new agr eement. These new initiatives include the form ation of the Manitoba Medical Services Council to ensure co-operation and management of the ins ured medical services program.

The Physician Resource Committee will develop a physician resource plan to meet requirements for the province of Manitoba. These initiatives represent a unique opportunity for Manitobans to work co-operatively to ensure a fiscally sound insured medical services program. This legislation is an integral par t of the government 's commitment to a co-o perative relationship with the MMA. With these brief comments, I recommend the bill for second reading. Thank you. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Acting Speaker, I wonder if I might have leave to ask the minister a question. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is there leave for the honourable member for Kildonan to ask the minister a question? [agreed] Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Acting Speaker, the minister indicated that this bill is similar to the fo rmer act that was repealed. I wonder if the minister might outline for me when that fo rmer act, that fo rmer bill, was repealed. Mr. McCrae: The precise date I will have to make available to the honourable member. Perhaps we can do that in committee .

3326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 Mr. Steve Ashton (Thomps on): I was wondering if I also might have leave to ask a question, Mr. Acting Speaker. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Is there leave for the honourable member for Thompson to ask a question of the minister? [agreed] • (1 140) Mr. Ashton: It is interesting that this bill comes in under the 50th anniversary of the Rand Formula, which is the compulsory payment of dues by many labour organizations .

I would like to ask, and for clarif ication again, not in debate , whether the minister can indicate whether this bill pro poses provisions similar to the Rand Fom10la-in other words, whether it will bring in the MMA in very much the same situation as many unions in this provin ce. Mr. McCrae: Unaccustomed as I am to all of the procedures and machinations of the union movement, I will reserve my answer to that question to the time when we get to the bill before the committee . 1be honourable member is asking me to, I think, maybe go beyond answering his question to get into a little debate today .

I do not think: that this is the appropriate time to do that. I fe el that this particular measur e is something that I think Manitoba Medical Association needs to help put all of the various initiatives in the new packag� Some Honourable Members : Solidarity fore ver, solidarity foreve r. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Lauren deau): Order, pl ease. Could I ask the honourable membets who want to cany on a conversation or a song to do it in the hall s? Mr. Ashton: I move, seconded by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomia k), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to.

Bill23-The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns ), that Bill 23, The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act;

Loi sur les biens de Ia Soci�t� historique du Manitoba, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presen ted • Mr. Ernst: Mr. Acting Speaker, Bill 23, The Manitoba Historical Society Property Act, is before the House for the pwpose of transferring property baclc to the Manitoba Historical Society . This property was vested in Her Ma jesty in right of the Province of Manitoba on November 14, 1990, as the result of the appeal of

an act to incorporate the historical and scientific society of Manitoba. That private act was repealed on the assumption it was no longer required. As it transpired, the act was required, and the result of the repeal was to leave the society without corporate status , thereby resulting in the vesting of its property in the name of the Crown.

It is important, theref ore, that we remedy this situation which has arisen purely as a result of inadvertence . 1be effect of Bill 23 is to reinstate the property in the society and to e nsure that the corporate decision making with respe ct to the property in the intervening yeats is validated. Mr. Acting Speaker, this bill comes into force on the same day Bill 30 2 comes into force . As honourable membets know, Bill 302 is the private bill curren tly before us, the pwpose of which is to re-establish the corporate status of the Manitoba Historical Society.

I will be pleased to provide any other inform ation that memb ers may require at committee stage on this bill, and I thank you, Sir, for your atten tion. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Is the House ready for the question? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : I move, seconded by the member for St. Bo niface (Mr. Gaudry), that debate be adjourned .. Motion agreed to.

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3327 House Business Bon. Jim Ernst (Governm ent House Leader): Mr. Acting Speaker, I wonder if you would canvass the House to see if there is unanimous consent to consider on Monday next, for Estimates in the Chamber, to set aside all other Estimates consideration in favour of considering the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation in the afternoon and the Department of Industry , Trade and Tourism in the even ing. That will necessitate a switch from committee room to Chamber as well. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is there unanimous consent of the House to do what the minister has requested? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Let us be clear as to what we propose to do. Currently , the Department of Justice is in the Chamber dealing with their Estimates. We propose to set aside that, and any other set-asides that are required, in order to accomm odate the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways in the afternoon and the Estimates of the Department of lndustry, Trade and Tou rism in the evening. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is there unanimous consent of the House to set aside all other business in the Chamber and go to the Department ofHig hways and Transportation in the Chamber in the afternoon , and then Industry, Trade and Tourism in the Chamber at night? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: I wonder if you would see if there is unanimous consent of the House to set aside the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism in the committee room in favour of the Department of Environment Estimates for both Monday afternoon and Monday evening. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is there unanimous consent of the House to set aside Industry, Trade and Tourism in the committee Room 255 and consider Environment, both in the afternoon and the evening? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Deb ate on Seco nd Readings , Mr. Acting Speaker, would you call Bill 9, fol lowed by Bill 4, fo llowed by Bill 3, fo llowed by all the other bills as listed in the Order Paper in the order in which they are listed. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill9-- The Convention Centre Corporation Amendment Act The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), The Convention Centre Cotporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur la Co1p0ration du Centre des congr �s. sta nding in the name of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). An Honourable Member: Stand. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Lauren deau): Is there leave that this matter remain standing? [agreed] On the pro posed motion of the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard), Bill 4, The Energy and Consequential Amendments Act- Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Acting Speaker, Bill 9. Do I need leave? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Lauren deau): Is there leave to revert to Bill 9? [agreed] •

(1150) Mr. Martindale: It is a pleasure to be able to speak on this amendment and all 11 clauses, although I know that I cannot ref er to clauses because this is second reading. I would not do that as deputy House leader. I know what the rules are . So I will keep my remarlcs very general , extremely gen eral . I think it is important in speaking on this bill to talk about the significance of convention centres and, in particular, this convention centre, particul arly to the economy of Winnipeg.

We know that people come from all over the country and all over the world and , indeed, from other parts of Manitoba to use the facilities of the Convention Centre, and that is to the benefit of Winnipeg and Manitoba, but particul arly to bus inesses in Winnipeg because this brings considerable revenue to hotels and to resta urants and to the Convention Cen tre itself when people are attending conve ntions.

3328 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 It is not just the individuals who are attending a convention, but quite often they bring spouses and family member s with them and fr equently conventions arrange for events for the spouses and family members. The individuals themselves attending a convention often have free time at which time they take advantage of local amenities and things to see and do in our fine city. There are many things to see and do.

We have excellent restaurants, many of them located close to the Convention Centre, and this benefits the provincial coffers and the Oty of Wmnipeg and the employees who work there . This money circulates and recirculates, and benefits continue to accme in tenns of creating employment and tax revenue to various levels of gov ernm ent Not only restaurants , but people take in movi es; they take in many different kinds of entertainment.

We have many excellent theatre facilities here; for example, the Warehouse Theatre; Prairie 'Theatre Exchange, which my wife and I have subscription tickets to; MI'C, another excellent theatre; the IMAX, which I think is the only one in Canada or maybe the only one in western Canada An Honourable Member: Edmonton has one. Mr. Martindale: Edmonton has one. The only one in Manitoba. Anyway, it is quite an experience to go to the IMAX and take in a movie there . It is the only one I have seen, and, of course , ours is the best. There is the Royal Winnipe g Ballet, which is world famous.

I hope all honourable members here will have taken in ballet at the Royal Wmnipeg Ballet. I hope all honourable members have heard of some of the principal dancers with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. Evelyn Hart, for example , is one of the principal dancers; this is an individual whom I met many years ago in Peterborough, Ontario . In fact, I have a little quiz for honourable members. Which manse produced two nationally famous individuals who grew up in the manse at George Street United Church in Peterb orou gh? Well, the first famous Canadian is the Right Honourable Lester B.

Pearson who was a resident of the manse there. His father was a Methodist preacher. The second one is Evelyn Hart, whose father was a United Church minister. I knew him and I used to visit with the family at their home in Peterborough. I just saw Evelyn at a rally in front of the Legisla tur e about a year ago, and I reintrodu ced myself to her and had a good chat with her. I have had occasion to see her dance as well . In fact, not only do they dance at the Concert Hall, but they have Ballet in the Par k at Assini boine Park My wife and I have taken that in, for example.

I hope all honourable members will have a chance to take in the Royal Wmnipeg Ballet, Ballet in the Park. I think this year they are moving from Assini boine Park to Rainbow Stage , which is very convenient for me since we live in the north end and convenient to our constituents in the north end. We will not have as far to go. They do have a roof there which is handy in case it mins, although the roof leaks quite a bit. They have had some problems there .

You almost need to take an umbr el la when you go to Rainbow Stage. [intetjection] I think the honourable minister missed the connections I was trying to make here with the Convention Centre , the point being that when people are attending conve ntions, they take in many other functions in the city ofW mnipeg. They spend their money in the city of Winnipeg which is to the benefit of employees and business owners and the coffers of the provincial government, the city government and the fe deral government which- An Honourable Member: Is this sort of like the Jets, Doug? Mr.

Martindale: 1be honourable minister would like me to talk about the Jets. There are similarities in that there is the Winnipeg Entetprises board and it has city councillors on it. The Convention Centre Corporation Amendment Act talks about the number of councillors: four mem bers of the council of the City of Winnipeg appointed by the council of the city and also seven persons from the city of Winnipeg appointed by the coun cil. I am sure the honourable minister knows much more about this, having been a member of a

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3329 particular caucus at City Hall, about which appointments are considered good-[interjection] -some people would say he was a member of the gang, yes, indeed-which appointments are better appointments than others at City Hall. We know that quite often they have a caucus in secret or in camera, and they decide which coun cill ors are going to go on which committee.

In fact, our Acting Speaker today would have some familiarity with that, having been a fonner city councillor, so some day I should ta1k to him and find out what those secret meetings are really like when they divvy up, when they decide which coun cill ors are going to go on which committee , because city coun cillors may sit on 10 or 15 different committees.

In fact, they probably sit on more now that there are only 15 councillors as op posed to the previous 29, so their worldoad has probably doubled I think we-[interj ection] Well, I am told that it may have quadrupled, but at least doubled It is actually quite an onerous responsibility to be on these committee s. Some committees are more onerous than others. Some committees require more time. Some committees meet more often.

Of course , some committees have more prestige than other committees, because some require that the councillors handle millions of dollars, and that is why the government House leader raised the W innipeg Jets. These are very important decisions to the taxpayers ofWmnipeg, the taxpayers of Manitoba, because sometimes we know that councillors and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) sign agree ments which have implications of mul timilli on dollars of public expenditure , particularly if things do not go the op timal way, if they go the other way.

We know , for example, that the Jets deal could cost the taxpayers of Winni peg and Manitoba $43 million, something that we did not know until the Auditor, fortunately, on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba and Winnipe g, fe rreted out this inform ation which had been withheld from the Legislature and from the taxpayers . It is very interesting to talk to people about whether they think the taxpayers should subsidize the milliona ire owners of the Jets and multimillion-dollar hockey players, not just on their operating losses, but on building a new arena.

I would say that, as time has gone on since this deal was signed, the level of public support has declined, declined significantly, and now I do not talk to anybody who supports either subsidizing the Jets on an ongoing basis or using public subsidy to build a new arena. Just ye sterday I had a discussion with a gentl eman at the North YMCA. We were in the locker room there, and we got talking about the Jets deal since they got so much publicity , and this individual was going to run against me as the Tory candidate in Burrows constituency. In fact, I have been encouraging him to do that for the last four years.

But, regretta bly, the Conservative Party nominated the doonnan at the Manitoba Oub-or so I have been told-as my opposition candidate. I think I could have a lot of fun running against the doonnan at the Manitoba aub and talk about this elitist club for rich individuals. Since I represent many, many poor people in Burrows constituency, I think they would like to hear about the Manitoba Club. I was hoping that the Conservative Party would put up a good candidate, somebody who lived in Burrows , as this business person and friend who worships at the same church that I do does. He lives in Burrows constituen cy.

We need a good strong Conservative candidate in Burrows constituency, but the Conservative Party disappointed me and they nominated the doonnan at the Manitoba aub. We do not know who the Liberal Party has nominated yet, but we are waiting. [interjection] Well, that is what I am told. That is what I am told. [int erjection] Well, maybe it suggests that the Conservatives have written off Bur rows consti tuency. If they have, I am disappointe d.

Historically, the Conservatives finished second in Burrows over the last 25 years until 19 88, and now, of course, the Liberal Party has replaced the Conservatives as the oppo sition to run against in Burrows. An Honourable Member: One day we will win Burrows.

3330 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 Mr. Martindale: Well , the honourable minister says one day we will win Burrows. I think what you need to do is start by nominating a candidate who lives in the constituency and yo u-- The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): Order, ple ase. This is not a time for debate on that issue. I think I would ask the honourable member to remember that he is dealing with The Convention Centre Corporation Amendment Act If we could just be a little bit more relevant, I would appreciate it • (12 00) Mr. Martindale: Thank you for that reminder.

I did get off my list here of things that people see when they attend conventions at the Convention Centre . Of course , there is the Museum of Man and Nature. They were involved in some controversy a few years ago about having a sexist name. There was an attempt made to change the name, but that has not happened yet Anyway, it is an excellent museum . I hope that all honourable members have been there and that you will go and see it. Of course, the St. Bo niface Museum is a very interesting museum. I have been there , and it is housed in one of the oldest buildings in western Canada that is still in use.

Then there is The Forks and the Chil dren's Muse um. We have one of the best , maybe the best child ren's museum in Canada and children just love going to the Children 's Museum and so do adults . I have been there many times when the adults are helping the children on the computers and the kids move on to some other area and the adults are all stuck on the computers having a good time. Of course , there are many things to do at The Forks besides the Children's Museum. There are the wal kways . We can walk now from the Legislature to The Forks and from The Folks north along the river.

It is a very ple asant walk and a go od thing to do for peo ple attending the Convention Centre events . I think I have just about outlined all the things that somebody might do while they are attending a convention at the Winnipeg Convention Centre . I even managed to talk about co uncil appointments to the Convention Centre Bo ard . It would be interesting to know whether this is one of the higher priorities or higher status appointments by City Council or whether it ranks down there at the bottom .

In any case, I think it is one of the more impor tant ones because they do have a multimi llion-dollar budget that they are responsible for, so we hope that the best possible councillors and the best citizens from the city of Winnipeg are appointed to this boanl. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I am also rising to speak in this debate, particularly fo llowing on the scintillating and interesting discourse entered into by my honourable friend from Burrows (Mr. Martindal e), and I rise to speak on this bill , The Convention Centre Cmporation Amendment Act.

The member for Burrows has covered a wide range of topics with respect to some of the advantages and some of the purposes of the Convention Centre , and I am going to use my dis cussi on to focus on some of the other aspects of this particular amendment The amendment deals almost exclusively with the composition of the boanl and with respect to the board, as I read the bill, basically expanding and changing some of the individuals who participate on the boanl.

I believe the board now has eight members -and I stand corrected-and now it is expanding, I believe, to 16 or 17 under this bill, secondly, dealing as I understand it, with the staggered tenns of the boanl and the method of appo inting. Now we tend to deal with these matters, that is boanl appoin tments , directorships and the like, as a sort of pro fo nna on occasion, but I am sure all members of the House will agree with me that matters of this kind are significant because the boanl basically is responsible both in law and in fact for the function ing of the Convention Centre Corporation.

That is no small task when one considers that the Convention Centre serves as a fo cus of activities for the city of Winnipeg and serves as a fo cus for the attraction to the city of

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3331 Winnipeg of conventions and much needed tourism. (Mr. Brian Pallister, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) The role and the responsibility, Mr. Acting Speaker, of the board of directors is a significant one. It is something that should be dealt with, with great detail. We deal with a myriad of issues in this Chamber dealing with governorship and dealing with control and direction of various organizations and various bodies.

We do that on a regular basis, and sometimes we tend to not understand or to place perhaps enough emphasis on the significance of the responsibilities of a dire ctor of a corpomtion, be it profit or nonprofit. By way of example, the boards of directors of hospitals have significant responsibilities for their institutions. Hundreds of milli ons of dollars and the expenditure of those millions of dollars, the balancing of the books, the liabilities and the various directions and changes in the health care policy , are determined by the board of directors of hospitals and other institutions.

That same scrutiny and that same requirement is require d by the board of directors of the Convention Centre Cotporation. The Convention Centr e Corporation, and I recall the initial establishment of the Convention Centre, its vecy functioning role is integral to the economy of the city of Winnipeg and to a large extent to the economy of Manitoba by way of the attmction of busin ess, the attraction of ev ents and the facilitating of those functions in the province and in the city. One must vecy carefully review the role and responsibilities of this board of directors. We will be, of course, examining that, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and as we go through this amendment I pose some questions to the board that will be established should this bill pass, and the members that will be responsible for the functioning of that Convention Centre. I pose a question to them, and that is: What is the role and responsibility of the Convention Centre ? What is its focus going to be in the years to come in the city of Winnipe g? What is the strategic plan that has been developed for not only the Convention Centre but for the other tangential attractions that are focused on the Convention Centre that deal with the city of Winnipeg?

I believe that it is an integml part of the overall tourism develo pment plan for not only the city of Winnipeg but for the province of Manitoba as a whole . (Mr. Marcel Laurende au, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I think we have to vecy seriously consider where Winnipeg fits in the niche of the Canadian experience as to the attmction of tourism and how the Convention Centre should and could focus as a bub for expanding Winnipe g's involvement and Winnipe g's attractiveness to communities and to individuals from outside of Winnipeg, thereby bringing in much needed revenue and investment to the city of Winnipeg.

When I look at the city of Winnipeg and its present development, I think we are all justifiably pleased in this Chamber as to what has happened at The Forks, Mr. Acting Spea ker, in terms of development there. I am vecy pleased that The Forks was developed, a long-range plan that they commenced a long, long time ago, back to the time- An Honourable Member: Axworthy again. Mr. Cbomiak: The member for Inkster (Mr. Lamour eu

x) brings up the name of Lloyd Axworthy. I can bring up names like Ed Schreyer and I can bring up names like Gary Doer who were all involved in the estab lishment of what is becoming the jewel of attractiveness in tenns of the centre of the city, and members opposite as well who were supportive . There was an example of a joint effort to bring about a development that serves as a hub of activity and bas become a focus for individuals who visit the city of Winnipeg and for individuals who reside in the city of Winnipeg. I think by all accounts The Forks is a resounding success. I think that members in this Chamber

3332 LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 10, 1994 ought to look at The Folks experience and some of the other experiences in terms of how we move the Convention Centte and its activities that function through the Convention Centte into the pl anning for the development of touris m, for development of business and for the development of conventions in the future . I do not know what role convention centres play , how Wmnipeg stacks up against other cen ttes. I have the impressi on, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and this is only an impression, that our Convention Centte has fallen behind developments in peJ.baps other centtes, that it needs to move into a new stage of develo pment. Shall we call it a first-generation Convention Centre , and we need to develop second- and third-generation models ? From some of my visits to other cities, I have seen some developments in other cities that fo cus around other convention centres, and I think we may have fallen behind.

I would hope the new board will provide some impetus to develo ping a new generation, a new plan for the development of the Wmnipe g Convention Centte. I also have the impression that the Convention Centte has served the city of Wmnipe g quite well and has filled its role fairly well. It is a layperson 's impress ion, and it is not based on any great deal of resea rch or development but it is certainly an impression that I have as someone who has been a long-time resident and relatively active in this city.

I do look to the development of the Convention Centte with a new focus and with a new mandate to develop into the next cen tury. •

(1210) Let me make this perfectly clear, Mr. Acting Speaker, that I believe the development of the Conve ntion Centte is tied very inte grally, deeply to the bean of the development in the city of Winnipeg, to the attraction of business, to the attrac tion of tour ism, to the development of a strong centre and to the establishment of a vibrant Wmnipeg that could develop into the 20th Century much like the Wmnipeg that was seen at the tum of the century as the Chicago of the North and as one of the fas test, if not the faste st developing city on the face of this continent when there was a vision for this city.

There were hopes and as pirations that this city would become one of the great cities in North America. Perhaps that is what we have lacked. Perhaps the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos) is corre ct; perhaps we have lacked some vision in terms of this city, in terms of this province and where we should and ought to be in the future. [inteijection] The member fo r Inkster says, whose fault is that? I suggest it is the fault of all of us. No blame can be attri buted, but perllaps we do need a vision in this city as to where we are going and how we are going.

It is more than simply dealing with diverse or smaller issues, but it is talking about what the sttengths are of our city and what the strengths are of our province and how we capitalize on them . Cenainly, I can suggest several areas and several sectors, and the first one that comes to mind is our people , our diverse , educated, talented and capable people. That brings me to my own community, the community that I live in and the community that I have the honour to represent, the Kildonan area which is comprised of West Kildonan and Garden City where stteet after sttee t, Mr.

Acting Speaker, we see a community that has been long committed to this provin ce. We see an ethnic and a religious mix that is second to none in North America and perhaps the world, and I think what serves as a model of development and a model of a com munity living together, as well as a community succeeding, a community that has been brought together not only by adversi ty, but by commitment and hard wolk.

PeJ.baps some of that vision that we see in the community that I have the honour to represent can be translated and can be harnessed and channe lled into new directions and to the development of a vision for this city and for this province that we all can wolk together to achieve and will take us out of some of the lethargy that has been introduced into our society by a very, very acute and difficult economic downturn that has not been helped, I dare say, by the actions of the present government,

June 10, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3333 Mr. Acting Speaker, I am sorry to say, but perhaps we can rise above that particular lethargy and we can move into the 21st Century . Mr. Acting Speaker, I note that my comments have generated debate amongst the members of this Chamber-and I am pleased to see that-have generated debate about what comprises this vision, about what documentation went to cabinet, what documentation did not go to cabinet. Already we see debate prompted in this Chamber about where we should be in the 21st Century and where this city and this province is going.

I welcome that discussion. I hear it in my own home community. I hear it on a weekly basis as I go door to door, and I welcome discussion by members opp osite in the Chamber about what our goals are in this province , in this city, and where we intend to proceed into the next century. As the galleries fill, Mr. Acting Speaker, I will continue to discuss this future, because it is important. At one time, there was more of a vision. We seem to have lost that in this city, in this province, and I think it is sad. I think it is something that we all should work together. I do not say this in a partisan way.

I think it is something that is fe lt probably by all members of this Chamber. It is something that perhaps we have to get back and wolk towards, because it fits with the development of the five-year strategic plan or the 10-year strate gic plan for the Convention Centre . Despite encouragement from members opposite and despite the de mands, as I can see from the comments and the faces of members opposite , I will be concluding my remarks, Mr. Acting Spea ker.

Even though members opposite are encouraging me to continue, I do not want to dominate totally this discussion, and I want to allow other members who are anxious I know to discuss this bill, to have the opp ortunity. With those short brief comments, I will conclude my comments. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau): As previously agreed, this matter will remain standing in the name of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Committee Changes Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr.

Pall ister), that the comp osition of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows : the member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer) for the member for Steinbach (Mr. Drie dger); the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) for the member for Riel (Mr. Duchar me); the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) for the member for Charleswood (Mr. Ernst); the member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for the member for Kirkfi.eld Palk (Mr. Stef anson); and the member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae). Motion agreed to. The Acting Speaker (Mr.

Laurendeau): Is it the will of the House to call it 12:30? [agreed] The hour now being 12:30, this House now stands adjourned until l :30 Monday.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, June 10, 1994 CONTENTS Matter of Privilege Nonpolitical Statement Discipline and Assignment of Judges 1994 Social Work Gold Medalist Vodrey 3305 Martindale 3316 Ashton 3305 Mackintosh 3306 ORDERS OF THE DAY RO�E PROCEEDINGS Second Readings Bill 15, Law Society Amendment Act Tabling of Reports Vodrey 3317 24th Annual Report of the Ombudsman Bi11 16, Provincial Court Amendment Act Vodrey 3318 Rocan 3306 Bill 17, City of Wmnipeg Amendment Oral Questions and Consequential Amendments Act Mcintosh 3319 ACCESS Programs Bill 18, Insurance Amendment Act Doer; Manne ss 3307 Friesen; Manness 3308 Ernst 3323 Edwards; Manness 3309 Bill 19, Mental Health Amendment Act Hickes; Manness 3311 McCrae 3324 Ashton; Manness 3312 Edwards; Stefanson; Manne ss 3313 Bill 21, Manitoba Medical Association Robinson; Manness 3315 Dues Act MTS Yellow Pages McCrae 3325 Chomiak 3325 Findlay 331 3 Ashton 3326 St.

Bo niface Hospital Bi1123, Manitoba Historical Society Chomiak; McCrae 3315 Property Act Ernst 3326 Health Care System Reform Chomiak; McCrae 3316 Debate on Second Readings Speak er's Ruling Bill 9, Convention Centre Cotparation Amendment Act Mr. McCrae 's Comments on Martindale 3327 June 8, 1994 3316 Chomiak 3330

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-45
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 45.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5b3214c392599857813988ab8af8adebf70d11c2

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