Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MAY 1, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 61

~1av 1, lff7/, Th" ""°''" mPt At 1:nn l','1, Mr. Spe11ker in the Chair. Mll .. SP_F~Kf.R• Order, nlease: T,1111!! 111'17 It 1 s a ,11 stinct nleasure for me- todav to welcome to the g11.lleries from Mushwau-Innu, Davis Inlet, nineteen Grades V, VI and VII students with their te11chers,Mr. Leo Panranhan and SiRter Martha Gratton. I sincerely welcome you here on behalf of all the honourable members and trust that your visit here is most informative and interestinp. HINISTE'PIAI. STATF:'-IBNTS ~'1!.. SPEAKEll : The Fon. ~inister of Municiral Affairs and Housing. FON. R.R. V.

F.ARLE (MINISTER O'F MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING): Speaker, I havr here a statement -o-; ;ubsidiz";d rentals. In the light of ouestions asked in the House a few da:,rs ago, and in relation to my rece~t meeting with the members of the Fishermen's Food and Allied Workers Croup, I should like to make the following statement: In the light of current subsidized rent adjustments I wish to make a statement concerning subsidized rental units and the basis upon which they are rented and how rents are adjusted.

First of all I should point out that the rentals charged in subsidized rental accommodation are related to the income of the family occupyin~ the unit rather ~han to the home itself. The first aim of subsidi?.ed rental is to provide accommodation to persons of lower income hased upon their ability to nav. The scale is therefore so designed as to bear as lightly as possible on very low incomes and the nercentage of income' cbarged for rents is as low as sixteen poi nt seven per cent at the bottom of the rental scale.

As incomes rise the nercentage of income also increases until at the $404, a month family income level and above it. it calls for twenty-five per cent to be paid in rent. This is for serviced accoD11110dation including heat, hot water, stove and refrigerator. In any case where one or more of these are not supplied appropriate reductions are made. Taking an example; a family consisting of a man, his wife and two children 4874

''av 1, 1974 Tape 1437 PK - 2 with an income of $300 a month would pav $63.00 a month for a serviced unit. In order to determine rental levels to be charged there js an annual review of income carried out by the Housing Management Authorities Increases or decreases as the case may he arP. made on a rate change hased on the income reviews. It is important to note, however, that if a family find the rate increases on the basis of the annual review and then finds that the income being earned is less than the income review of base, they can apnly for a monthly adjustment.

The scale is a national one with small variations in its aoplication in different orovinces. While from time to time the scale became a matter of controver1iy, no fair ~•ay has yet been found to ar,ply such a scale during the many years over which it has been enforced, fundamentally in its oresent form. Ve must never lose i;1P.ht of the fact that in coni;idering suhsidizerl rental rates these are primarily intended for low :lr,come families.

Curre11tlv ar, income review has been carried out and ad1ustments 1n the rate of rent have been made on the basis of 1°73 incomes and thus substantial increases :In :l.ncome occurred for a large nllI!lber of families occuoyinr the ur,its. Recentlv I met w:lth a deleP.ation from the Fii;hermen Food and .Uli,ad Workers Union and tenants oarticularlv concerning the increases in communj ties ,,,here fish nlants are oneratin~. The three main points disc.ussed were: The nos1iibilitv r,f restrictinr increases to the economv rental rate uai; discussed.

If such a course were adonted then it would he nece,e;sary for the nrovince to assume the fecler,il share of loss of revenue on this account, since the federal-provincial agreement on suhRidy h:lncls the nrovince to use the rent scale and federal subsidizes woul~ only he naid on that basis. Tn other words. in cases where rents calculated on the rental ,;c:alp exceed the economic rent the nrov:lnce would have to hear the difference when settling with the federal government on the Rhare of iauh!dclv. The second no1nt discussed was that of finding alternativ<> 4875

1-lay 1, 1974 Tape 1437 PK - 3 accommodation. This was discussed "''itMn the framework of plans available to assist in home o•mership. The third noint discusserl was the POSfJihility of sellinr, the units to the -tenants. 0n the first noint th@re is levelling off of the rents at the economic, This has been discussed with my officials and i .t annears feaRible to recommend to goverru,,ent that this be done. I should no:lnt out, however, that when I speak of levelling off at economic rentals. I am sneaking of substantial rents.

Economic rentals for the subsidized rental units we nm., have would vary depending unon how long ago they were constructed, variations in size of the units and so on. To use a general figure is difficult and I do not ,.,ish to he bound to a specific rate. I can say, however, that when I sneak about newer homes, I refer to rentals of un to $2nn. a month. Thi!'! can vary deoending upon the cost of construction, :Interest rates and so on which would determine economic rental rates in snecific cases.

On the second point, Tam hanny to say that the new Federal­ Provincial Ar.reement for the construction of 1nn units for home ownership in small communities should be of considerable helP. This plan includes subsidy of mortgage payments on the basis of income. We shall make sure that the benefits of this nlan are fully explained to the people involved in rental increases, with a v:lew to their using it to secure alternative accolfflllodation on a home ownershin basis. The th:lrd ooint, the matter of sale,presents great difficultie~.

First of all, many subsidized units are built in multiforms which would make sale somewhat difficult and might involve the use of condominium forms of o,,,nersh1p. "!ore important than this, however, is the continuing need for subsid:lzed rental units. It would be obviously unsound for government to sell units built at a lower cost some years ago anrl have to renlace them with new units which "'muld cost very substantially more than the existin~ ones. It :l.s not considered, therefore, that this is a practical course to follow.

Looldng at the p.eneral matter of building new subsidi?.:ed rental housing, I shall noint out that at torlay's cost the federal and 4876

Mav 1, 1074 'J'ane 1437 Pk - 4 nrovincial povernment are faced with subsidies of over $250 per family ner month. This noses a serious nroblem as to how much can be done to increase the sunnly of this kind of accommodation in the lip-ht of the very hiph construction and onerating costs nreva:!linr toc'!ay. ~'R. SPF.AR'.Fll : The Fonourahle Member for Rell Islanc'!. "'I'. S. A. NEARY: Mr.

Sneaker, Tam sure that the information :In the statement just read '!w the honourable minister, I will arssume it will be ,,•elcome ne""s for the fish nlant workers, the dragger workers in TreDassey and Marystm,m and in the other oarts of Newfoundland where there are subsidized rental units. A lot of the minister's statement was just winnow dressing, Sir.

Tl-tere were a lot of ifs, ands and buts in the stateinent, things that nrohably the min:! ster .1ust threw :In there to make it look 1:1.ke the povernment they were !'rettv good fellows but in actual fact, Sir, all these people are interested in is pegging the rental. Now the minister pointed out in his statement that there ~,ere substantial increases in rents this year due to the increase in income based on last year's earning and this wars the main comnlaint of the ff.sh r,lant workers and the dragger crews down in the Memher for Placentia West's District and down in the 1-'emher of Ferryland 's nistrict.

I am not quite clear but I understood from the minister that they would now provide what he called T th:lnk economic rents. In other words, I presume that the minister is going to do the same thing that the former administration did at Buckmaster's Circle when the matter rose over there t}at the government would have to put in i;, larger Rhare of the subsidy. Is this what the minister said in effect?

That the rents will be na"f.d up to a certain noint denending on the size of the familv and the income in the family and that the province would nut in a larger share of the suhsirlv? 'J'hat is not what the minister rsaid? J.'ould the minister clarifv that? That :Is the 1.mnression I J?;ot from his statement? I mean just ,.,hat h.eln i.s going to be given to these people, if anv? Is there any assistance in there for these neonle? Would the minister just clarifv that, :Mr. Sneaker? 4871

Mav 1, l<l74 1'ane 1437 PR - 5 On a no int of order, Mr. SneakE'r. ''IR. NFARY: Well 1m;t onE' !'lecond now, I am trving to p:et - MP. DAWE: Th:l.s iR not the! ouestion period, ~'r. Sneaker. An honourahle memher frol!l the onnosition side can I understand have a fe~r hrief remarks to a mtnisterial statement hut I <lo not think we are sunnose to enter into a ouestion ner:lnd at thiR time. 1-m. ~'!FARY: 'm. SPEAKER: Sit down hnv, and do not be RO stunned and making such a - Order, nlease!

It has been a general custom that a spolresman or the Leader of the Opposition or,if not,a spokesman with a shadow nortfolio to make a few COIIUTll'nts in reply to a ministerial statement, hut this should be confined in narticular to the statement. Ouest:lnns are allowed for clarification. MR 'll!EAllY: Merelv for clarification purposes, Mr. Speaker, hecause I do not want to misinterpret what the minister said: I would liJre to have a conv of h:ls statement, as a matter of fact, as the minister has conies to circulate to members of the House.

I want to be Perfectly clear on that point because this is the important thing as far as these workers are concerned. Pill the renti, now be frozen or will there still be a rev:l.et-r or will the nrovince put in a larger share of the suhs:ldy? Just what aid is going to bE' given to these people that annroached the minister there a couple of weeks ago, or a week or so ago? MR. EARLE: Mr.

Sneaker, for the purpose of clarificat:lon,when I say economic rental and as I nointed out in the statement,of which I will have a copv to give to the members of the opposite side, economic rentals todav,based on nresent costs and even on some of the homes presently there, are not cheap rentals. '!'here will be some that will henef:l.t hv an adjustment to an economic rent but there will be others who will suffer l)ecause if we st:lc 1- to an economic basis there is bound to he :In some cases an increase in rent and in some a lowering.

But T m:lght say that this w:111 not affect a larp:e nronortion of the peonle occupving these houses. I have gone down throur,h everv nlace where ~-rE' have suhsid:lzed rentals and hv far the great ma.1oritv of peof']e occupying these homes are in the lower brackets. For instance, in St. 4878

Mav 1, 1974 '!'ape 1437 PK - 6 John's,1ust to ~ive an ex=ple, there are 419 of these occupied hy peoryle who are paving from $17 to 4879

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1438 Page 1 - MW to $75 a month and 118 of them where they are paying up to $76 a month. Now when nne gets down to the $196 to$ 215 a month rent and the $216 to $235 rent, this in total, out of something like 700, only affects about 200 people, about 200 families out of 700. All the way along - in some cases it varies. In Marystown it is even better than that. This is St, John's but I have it here for each district and each place, AN HON MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

EARLE: Well, Marystown, for instance, where the bulk of the delegation came from to see me; There are seventy-nine there with a rental of $17 to $75 a month, There are thirty-five families with a rent from $76 to $95 a month. There are only two families with $163 a month, one family at $183; one family at $208 and one family at $220. It can be easily seen that by far the greater percentage of these are in the low rental brackets. MR. NEARY: I thank the honourable minister, Mr. Speaker.

I must say that in the light of his supplementary remarks here that the statement then is a gross disappointment indeed to say the least. I think what the fish plants fear in these communities, Sir, is that a lot of their workers, their key workers who own homes in other parts of Newfoundland may quit because of these high rentals and go back to their own homes. I 3111 wondering if the minister approached the fish plant owners to see if they would be prepared to throw in a few dollars to help the workers offset the increases in rents.

There is a danger there, Sir, that these people may quit and go back home and thua lower the productivity of the fish plant, both at Marystown and Trespassey, This would be unfortunate right at a time, Sir, when they need the productivity and they are just starting to build up a good iniuatry there, MR . EARLE: The honourable member's question as to whether we approached plant owners, this would have a very unsatisfactory result because if the plants were to contribue towards this, this would be regarded as income and the subsidies would be cut by the federal authorities. 4880

}Jay 1, 1974 Tape no. 1438 Page 2 PETITIONS: MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of some fifty or more residents of New Penneywell Road, situated in St, John's North. The prayer of the petition is brief. It says: "In the aatter of expropriation, we the undersigned want a house for a house." Mr. Speaker, in that brief hea•i~g, I think that _contains all the hopes and fears of all those who live in older homes all over Newfoundland and especially in urban renewal areas.

When we speak of a house for a house we mean (the petitioners mean) that if a person through no fault of his own has to give up his house to the government that that government will fairly see that the family is lodged in at least an equivalent house and if,becauae of the age of tlie house that was expropriated, no such equivalent house can be found, then at least the cheapest good,nev house that is available within reasona•le distance of the original domicile. Mr.

Speaker, you may have a situation where a house is extremely old and dilapidated and to offer say $7,000 or $8,000 would be a very, very fair market value but what would happen to that person when he sought a new house or any other house? That would merely be the downpayment and the family would find themselves saddled with a IIOllthly mortgage payment, poaaibly as high or even higher than a steep rental. Now this present situation arose largely,as I understand it, because tlie federal government was not willing to go along with a house for a house legislation in urban renewal areas.

They fel~ t~at it would cost too much. I think that this shows a very unfeeling streak on the part of the federal government because it is tantamount to asking the poor SOIU.s who are being exprorpriated to subsidize this urban renewal. They are the last people who should be asked to subsidize that kind of a development. I say that if one cannot pay a decent price 4881

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1438 Page 3 for a house to enable the people to go into another home, then leave them alone. I would say further that if one could guarantee our people freedom from the fear of expropriation, the fear that expropriation is going to set them back financially, ten years, then I say that this government could do nothing greater during its term of office Now most property transfers are the result of private negotiation. The person who negotiates willingly and freely cannot complain legitimately about the price he has received.

In fact the percentage of those homes that are taken by outright expropriation in any one year must be very,veryS111all. We are not talking about a massive infusion of money but we are talking about legislation that will guarantee fair play to all peopie, all over Newfoundland. In my view a fair price can only be full replacement value. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I urge and I implore the government to set the public mind at rest, to do a great right and to right a great wrong. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, at long last the Member for St.

John"s North has come up with a matter that we are in complete agreement with on this side of the House, Sir, we support the prayer of the petition presented by the Member for St. John's North on behalf of his constituents who live on the New Penneywell Road Area. We subscribe to the principle, Sir, of a house for a house in cases where the government expropriates the property or the people are forced out of their property for some reason or other. We have had a number of ex8lllples here in St. John's.Sir, where people were forced out of their homes, right down in the heart of St.

John's, right down where City Hall is now. Now the Trizec people are wheeling and dealing with the government to try to get a deal whereby they can come in and put up a big skyscraper down there. That land one time was privately owned. It belonged to homeowners, The people were driven out of their homes, Sir, and are probably involved today in heavy mortgages. 4882

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1438 Page 4 Mr. Speaker, I agree with the Member for St. John's North that you have a number of innocent people in urban renewal projects that are carried out who are senior citizens, who are retired and who are living on fixed incomes in a lot of cases in the low income bracket. They are forced out of their homes, they have to go out and commit themselves to mortgages and high interest rates that they can ill-afford, Sir. The member did n_ot mention the fact that his colleague, the Member for St.

John's South, has a resolution on the Order Paper dealing with this very matter of a house for a house. The Premier, Sir, and the administration,when they were campaigning in two provincial general elections,made a solemn commitment to the people of this province that they were going to implement the principle of a home for a home. The Premier is nodding, yes. I hope that the government will see to it that they keep this promise. Sir, this is a part of our philosophy on this side of the House, it is a part of our policy and a part of our platform. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR .

NEARY: We have not had a chance yet to form the administration. We have a new leader and a new party. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: That is right, Sir. As a matter of fact, the Leader of the Opposition just reminded me, we did want to do it but the Minister of Finance disbarred it. MR. ROBERTS: _MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). I intend to wind up my remarks now, Sir, but I want to say that it is a part of our philosophy over here on this side of the House, a part of our policy and will be a part of our platform, if that honourable crowd,over there do not bring in this programme of a home for a home. MR. MARTIN: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to add my few words of support for the petition presented by the Hon. Member for St. John's North, on behalf of those residents on New Penneywell Road who are now facing 4883

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1438 Page 5 expropriation. I think it is something that is long overdue, as the Member for Bell Island has said. I do not think that this government could do anything better than to adopt as one of its 4884

!-1:ay 1, 1974 Tape 1439 (afternoon) nrinciples the provislon of a home for a home when government has to take away from an individual or a group of individuals what in many cases is a lifetime investment. To simply tah:! the r,,arkct v11luc of anv paricul.ar house and give them that in compensation for t11king their home away is never enoup:h because one can never buy a replacement home for the market value that is heing put Ill-1 on it hy assessors. I certainly, Sir, have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting this petition. "P.. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I woulrl like to make one or two brief comments only in this repard because I hope that we may begin the debate on the resolution that I have r-rought hefore this !louse on the house for house principle. I would say this; there is no question about it, the Family Fornes Fxnropriation Act of 19/;4 was An excellent piece of lrgislation. It was fought for - it was passed, of course, by this Jlouse hut was fought for more than anyone else, J suppose, hy the honour ah le member for St.

John's renter \·•ho is ill at this moment but T think evcrvbocly recognizes that it was he would fought loop: and hard for that particular piece of legislation. Now , it was changec in lQhh-19/;7 by the - /IN HONot'l'ARLE "4E"'BEP: The "inister of Finance. ------- MR. WELLS: I know all about that. Relax. I wi 11 tell the ------- honourar- le member about it. It was changed, 1-'r. Spe,aker - "Mr. Speaker, have I the right even in a feu brief comments to be heard in silence? ~- SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. WELLS : Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, it had to he chanp.ed as I understand it, because the federal government of thE' day woulc1 not, in these cost- shared programmes, ''° al onP- with the pr ind ple as expressed in the Family HoT"es Expronriation Act. "Y nnderstanr!ing was - I was not in the House ,at the time - that that is what compelled the change,so that in order to participate in these c.ost-share<l nroP:rammes the provincial rovernment of the day had t0 make that amendment. 4885

May 1, l 974 Tape 1439 (Afternoon) IB-2 Now, the amendment is still on the books. It only, of course, refers to areas covered by urban renewal schemes. In other areas of the province the Family Homes Expropriation Act is still in effect. At least that is how I read the law. I hope to have more to say on this in the debate. r.ertainly I support the principle of this petition. I ap.ree that the time has come to do something about this, to reverse that which was forced upon the government of the day by the federa] government. I have no hesitation in supnortinp the petition as presented by the memher, Mr. Spea~er.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Somehow or other I get the feelinp, that these few rrief remarks on the pr~sentation of a netition have been drawn into an overall debate. I hope that it does not continue · to do so. The Minister of Provincial Affa:lrs and Environment and I notice the Minister of Finance wantc<l to say a few words al:-out it. In all fairness I thi.nk I shall permit these two gentlemen to have a few brief remarks and then I feel that we should get on with other business of the day. MR. W.G. DArn (}'INISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAns AND ENVIRONMENT): !>Ir.

S-peaker, I would like to support this -petition because at the present time in the district of Harhour Main on the site of the Manuels Bridp.e we have several homes which are beinp exnropriated for the purpose of re-placinp the old bri<lp,e which should have been done many years ago but ~ras totally ignored despite the pleadings of the people in the area to the then Liberal members. We have people there who are not living in modern hun11;al0Fs.

They are living in homes which were constructed some L., ' years ago but they are clean, They are comfortable, They are deht free and in my opininn these people should not now he subjected to ten or fifteen or twenty years mortgage because the government of this -province decides to replace a bridge. It is progress that we are getting the new bridge but history has proven that progress IIDlSt pay its own way. I would like also to see a programme brought in whereby 4886

'·'ay 1, 1974 Tape 143~ (afternoon) rn-3 in such cases and instances a family man would receive a house for the house which he has lost because of the jmp]ementation of some government programme. It amazes me also, Mr. Speaker, that while in opposition, the Liberals can come out and support al 1 sorts of programmes that while they were in power they totally ignored. AN IIONOUl!.ABl.E MEMBER: We brought t.he policy in, l'<r. Spea1'.er. MR. DAWE: They did not bring any policy in. no not be talking foolishness. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please!

AN HONOURARLE 'MEMBER: Yes, sit down and do not be making a fool of yourself. ~~,~_DAWE~_ Mr. Speaker, these neople should not be subjected to indebtedness which is not of their own making. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the honourable 1"inister of Finance if he wish . to have the floor. RON. J.C. r.ROS!lU: (1-!INISTF.R OF FINANCE) : Mr, Speaker, I do not want to engage in a debate on this petition. Of course everybody has every ~,mpathy and sense of support for the petition. I do want to correct a misstaten:ent, a deliberate misstatement of fact in connection with this matter. As I understand the position, Mr.

Speaker, there aJ.ready is a Family Homes Exproori l'lti on Act which provides, in rough terms,a home for a home, if a family home should be expropriated. This is all going to be debated later on this afternoon or else next Wednesday in greater detail. In 1967, Mr. Speaker, when I wiis Minister of Municipal Affair~ and liousinr. in the late, lamented Smallwood Administration, I was told by my officials in the Department of Municipal Affairs that the Government of Canada would not proceen with any expenditure on the lllackhead Road scheme,now in the district of the memher for St.

John ' s South , nnless the Family Homes F.xpropriat10,i Act were changed so that it did not apply to the Blackhe~n Road area or to any urban renewal area, They would not proceed, they would not share in the cost of the expropriation of land and so on necessary up there if the Family Homes Expropriation Act applied to it. That 4887

May 1, 1974 Tape 1439 (afternoon) IB-4 was duly reported to the cabinet of the day and the cabinet of the day decir1ed that there would therefore have to he an amenclmPnt to the Family Homes Expropriation Act so that it would not apoJ-y in areas where there was an urhan renewal scheme and where peop] e were heinp: !!iven an opportunity to p:o into '[)ublic hous:l.np: or suhsidized rental or other things of that nature. Now, that ,?iJl all he gone into in more detail later. That was a policy of the Smallwood Government. It has not been cbanp:ed to this date.

It may very well be chanFed by the present administration. That is the se']uence of events, '-'r. Speaker. It was a Liberal r-0vernment at Ottawa and a Liberal Administration of the day of which I was a member and which policy was not changed up unt:1.1 January 18, 1972. That was in effect then. That applied to the lllackhead Poad, to the Mundy Pond Urban Renewal Area and to the Corner Rrook Urban Renewal Area, the only three areas in this province.

So, I am sure that we are going to have an interesting debate on this when the memher's resolution gets up.and it is a policy that doubtlessly will be receiving close scrutiny and change. I am glad to renort, Mr. Speaker, that the chanp:e was suooorted by the member for Rell Island, the member for White Bay South, the member for White Bay North and the member for Fogo and all of the gentlemen opposite who were in the House in 1q6]. In fact one might call it really the "Neary amendment''. He was very vocal in his support of that concept at that time. "MR.

SPEAKER: I shRll recognize the honourable Leader of the Opposition and then we shall continue with other business. MR~_ RO!lERTS (LEATlER OF THE OPPOSITION): Thank you, Mr. Speakc.>r. I wish to say just a word or two in support of the petition because as my colleap:ur from Bell Island has said, "We support the policy.' ' I find the ~inister of Finance to be tender on the subject. There will be ooportunity to dehate that later this day. I merely want to repeat to the House that we do support the policy, that we shall support the motion of the gentleman from 4888

"ay 1, 1974 Tape 1439 (afternoon) IB-5 St . ,lohn 's Sou t h which is very much to the point in this respect. T say . Sir, that it will he a test of the j?overnmcnt's sincerity ,,,hether or not they support this motion hy the gentleman from ~t . John's South and whether or not they act on it because this adminis ·tration, Sir, in the first Throne Speech they preuared or t~e first one trey delivered - the £cntleman from St . John's South was not in the !louse at that t i me because he had suffered an unfortunate circumstance i.n Bonavista Notth. AN HONOURAI\LE }'l'.''llEr.: A temporary reversal . "P.

R~~E_!~_:_ A temporary reversal and T £ive him full credit for fi11htiog the valiant battle in St. John· s ~outh and comini: back to the House or coming into the House where he 11dds considerably to it. The first Throne Speech of the adminjstration, Sir. on March I, 197 2 ,committed this government 4889

May 1, 1974. Tape 1440 (Afternoon) RH - l firmly and unmistakeably to repealing the Family Homes Expropriation Act Amendment. This is now, Sir, the fourth session, the third substantial session. Today is the fourty-ninth sitting day of this session and no motion to repeal that act, change that act, has been brou11:ht in by any member of the administration. So we say, Sir, we shall support the petition gladly and quite sincerely. We shall support the motion equally 11:ladly and equally sincerely. Now, Sir, the test will be on the administration to do what they promised to do two and one-half years ago.

ANSWERS TO QUESTinNS FOR WHI~H NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: !'{R. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to two questions, Question no. 30, Question no, 31 on the Order Paper, by the honourable member for Bonavista North. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the minister responsible for the Gross Marne National Park.

Over the weekend the minister announced a $15 million allocation over a three year period for the Groos Marne National Park for infrastructure work providing improved roads, pavement, water and sewera11:e and other support systems, Sir, In the

article in the newspaper I get the distinct feeling that this $15 million is coming wholly and solely from the Provincial Government. I was wondering if the minister could clarify that and indicate what the federal and provincial breakdown is as far as this $15 million expenditure is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: The honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, I indicated that it was expected there would be expenditures in that approximate amount for wa~er, ~ewer sys~em, roads and so on in the Gross Marne area.

I indicated that that would be over and •bove the expenditures by the federal parks people. I did not indicate whether the funds would be provincial or federal for that specific thing. As yet I do not know what the breakdown would be, the exact percentage. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, is this $15 million over three years all provincial money then? 4890

May 1, 1974. Tape 1440 (Afternoon) RH - 2 MR. MAYNARD: No. MR. F. ROWE: Would the minister undertake, Mr. Speaker, to prfvide the House at some later date with $15 million allocation1 Does the Speaker? the Federal Provincial breakdown of that minister know at the present t i me, Mr. MR. MAYNARD: No. As soon as I am able to indicate to the House I will do so, Mr. Speaker. I MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, has the minister had a definite indication from Ottawa, an approval from Ottawa that money will be forthcoming fi>r the I Gross Morne National Park to take up part of this $15 million?

Has I the minister r~ceived approval from Ottawa, a definite commitment from I Ottawa for any expenditure over the next three years for the Grojs Morne National Park? MR. MAYNARD: So far we have received a verbal commitment only, Mr. Speaker. There has been no national agreement signed up to this time. I MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I find it strange that such a large announcement . I could be made without a definite agreement having been signed between I Ottawa and the Provincial Government. It sounds like another "if" announce- ment, Mr. Speaker. I Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address another question to ~he I Minister of Transportation and Communciations. The minister took as notice I some weeks ago a ouestion I asked concerning a proposed road through the I district of St. Barbe North. I was wondering if the minister now has the I answer to that question. Do the officials in his department hav~ in fact an engineering design or a plan or a plot plan and description f~r any

section of a proposed new road through the district of St. BarbelNorth. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. I ~~~HICKE_!: My information, Mr. Speaker, is that mv staff 1have a partial plan • Some survey work and engineering work has is incomplete. I do not have the areas. I have not been been d9ne. It I given Jny detailed I report as yet. So I do not have the particular area in question I that it covers and neither do I have a time limit or a

schedule as to when it will I he completed but I am waiting for the detailed information. As soon as I 4891

May 1, 1974. Tape 1440 (Afternoon) RH - 3 have it I will be glad to let the honourable member know. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware of any new proposed road plan from the Roddickton Junction up as far as Forresters Point in the district of St. Barbe North that was completed in the year of 1972? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that under advisement. I can find out for the honourable member. 1-fR. F. ROWE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister made any specific proposals to Ottawa for road construction in the district of St.

Barbe North,based on what information I indicated that I feel I have some knowledge of,for road construction during the coming year under DREE or any other federal money? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say at this time with regards to the proposals that were forwarded to Ottawa. We discussed with DREE as to whether or not sections, what sections were within the boundaries of the honourable member's district. It is a bit difficult for me f·rom memory, to pin this kind of thing down. I do know there were a number of proposals that would not necessarily be included in the final agreement.

There are a number of alternatives too, whatever agreement is signed. I am unable to give him that information at this time. MR. F. ROWE: I woul4 like to address a question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries, when the minister is ready, Mr. Speaker. AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I co~ld have the attention of the Minister of Fisheries. I have a question for the honourable the Minister of Fisheries. Okay. While on a recent visit to the district, Mr.

Speaker, a number of people were indicating that a fish handling facility was to be established in Brig Bay presumably using the Plum Point vegetable storage materials on site. The frame is constructed. Presumably they will dis­ mantle it and move it out to Brig Bay. The word floating around is that $180 million is to be spent for this facility this year - $180,000 is to be spent this year. I was wondering if the minister could indicate to the Fouse, Mr. 4892

May 1, 1974. Tape 1440 (Afternoon) RH - 4 Speaker, what exactly the status of this construction of a fish handling facility in Brig Bay is and what plans the minister's department has for a similiar structure in the northern part of St. Barbe North, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries, MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, let me recall it. I might be wrong in some areas but as I recall it there has been a considerable amount of work done down there to determine what is necessary in terms of a water supply,bearing in mind the federal requirements for water for a fish plant. Tenders would have to be called.

I am not sure that a price has been established,and a price will not be established until tenders are called and bids are received to indicate to us what the cost would be. With regard to the northern part of that coast and a fish processing facility, I indicated to the honourable member some time ago that private enterprise, some sections of private enterprise were interested in going in there. Until a decision is made in that regard, of course, we will not know what we might be required to do.

I would certainly be willing to discuss it with the member outside but I would not like to mention the names of the firms which are interested in going there. Mr. Speaker, with $180 million, we would have no problem. MR. F. ROWE: It is $180,000, Mr. Speaker? It certainly was not $180 million. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Hon. the Premier: In view of the fact that the Premier did make a connnitment during the March election campaign for a fish plant, no less, in St.

Barbe North and in view of the fact that during the consideration of fisheries estimates last year the Premier did say that a fish plant wi.11 be established in St. Barbe North this year - The Premier said that last year and now the year has run out - would the Premier use his good offices to put some pressure on his cabinet or on the Minister of Fisheries to fulfill the commitment that the Premier himself made during election campaigmand during the consideration of the estimates last year for the Department of Fisheries. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. the Premier. HON. F.D.

MOORES: Mr, Speaker, I could very easily say the Order Paper 4893

May 1, 1974 . Tape 1440 (Afternoon) RH - 5 for something like th-at .. The honourable member has waited for a year to ask the question, he can certainly wait some time to get the answe .r. The fact is that we are interested in trying t .o g.et as 11111ch development as we can iu areas like St. Barbe North where there is not very much industrialization and certainly we are making every effort to do all we can to bring that about. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermit~e. ~- R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of TranspOTtation, the gentleman whom I :f,nd.icated to the House I would thank when he got back in the House. I already thanked the Minister of Municipal Affairs the other night and I promis .ed a bouquet for the Minister of Transportation which be deserves for hi11 help last week in connection with the del~ation from Gaultois :. '- 4894 •·

Mav 1, 1CJ74 Tape 144] (Afternoon) PK - 1 Now, Sir, to the ouestion: I have t'tiem al 1 woncler1.np-, "r. Speaker, what T pot that the haci.--henchers over there did not e:et. "r. Sneaker, I HP-ured if the Meml-,:,r for Bell Island could have a ldss:!nr:-cousin relationsh:!n ,,1th him, T CE'rtafoly would not go wrong - An Hn>' . }'E"'RfP ! A}T nn••. "F"BF" . 'IF. . r P"'ONS : rarrvinp- on a love affair •.. Tnaudihle. "r. Sneaker, I ,.,,mt to cltrect, the minister :!.s waiting ,,:! th hated hreath, T Pant him to hear the nuE'stion.

"'he first ouestion of tPo or three that I ,.rant to nut to him nerhaps is whether he has received some renresentation from the To~m Council at St. Alhan's concern:!np. the maintenance of roads :In the area and the nroposal to estahlish a maintenance depot in thE' area? U:P. • HICKF:Y: ~r . Sneai.--er, all was calm before the storm. I thin that should cover the rel.ationshin that exi.sts at the moment. Sot am not under any illusions. 1'"!. SN!ONS: Jnaudihle. MR. NICKFY: In answer to the honnurahle wemher's ouestion. mav 1 sav that of recent date I have not had r,:,nresentation. I am f3llliliar with the nroblem.

There ••ere some discussions 1'eld apnrox:l .matelv six months aizo anrl mv understanding was at that time that <re would attemnt to do something on a trial basis. 1 am nurely sneakinp from memory of hack . something like four or five months - nP • S IHMONS : A mai~tenance depot now. MJ!. tlTCKl'Y: l':l1>ht; 'T'o the hest of my nowledge we indicated to nur staff that the? ,e;hould trv a number of things which were sue:gested, which mav :!mt'rove the overall situation.

I cannot, as the honourable memrer can B.nnreciate, C01'11nent at th:!.!'l time as to whether what wa>! done was successful or how it might have been. if in fact, there was anything done. I ~•:1.11 attemnt to p.et the information and ir:!ve him the detail. 'l'o mv knowlerlge, I nersonally havP. not had rer,resentation wi.thin the last numher of months. A sur,nlementarv, Mr. Sneaker. thev made reference to renresent~tinn. I was thinking perhans that by now the minister µould 4895

May 1. 11)74 Tane 1441 (Afternoon) 'PK - 3 have receiVPd a telegram whi.ch wa!'I on the way to him last nip.ht. He ••n.11 nrohahlv pet it today sowetime. The issue had been discussed with him earJ iPr. Perhaps, could the minister :Indicate ,,1hether he foresees the estahlishment of such a maintenance :In the Ray D'Fsnoir. Area in the foreseeahle future? f'l!. HICKEY: Fir.st of all, Mr. Sne;iker, :ft is conceivable thRt the telep.ram has arrived hv now. I had meetinp.s all hefore noon and I came directly to the House, !'IO I am unaware of any telep;ram tl1at mi11;ht have arrived today.

Pith regards to whether or not a permanent ma:f.ntenance depot would be ,.et un in that narticular area, it would be nurely snectulation on my nart to g:l.ve a nosit:lve an!'lwer or a nepative an!'lwer at th~s narticular noint :In time. I thin~ it is a matter which I should look into in all fairness and give the honourable member the detailed infomat:fon. Hr. SneakPr, a sunple!'lentary.

As the minister i"' aware of course, thi"' matter of maintenancP or lack thereof is narticularly agj!:revatinsi: at th:l.s time of the year, the snrinv, of the year, and it has mu!'lhroomed again as witnessed again hy the netition nresented yesterdav by me on behalf of hundreds of neonle of the area.

I wonder would the minister indicate to the Fouse what has heen done subseoue'f'lt to my having raised the matter or durinp the nast few ~reeks - what has been done to cure the prettv serious Problem which was existinr then at Grand Falls because of the short11,z;e of mechanics and the large numbers of pieces of enuinment wh:! ch were in disrepair because of that shortage? C:an he indicate what stens have heen taken in recent weelrs to accommodate, to cure this situation? 'fl!. flICK!'Y, Pell, "r. Sp.,alrer, the answer to the mechanic problem is certainly not an easy one to come u'P with.

To mv knowledge tl-ere has been no aopreciahle change in tl,e situation at Grand Falls. We have experienced difficultv for the last year or so. It is just one of those things that we cannot cure. It seems that it is r,ossihlv .1ust coincidental that we are findinP; difficulty in keening mechanics in that area because other oonortunitiPs have presented themselves and the gentlemen in question take those onnortunit:les. It leaves vacancies. l-T1> attemnt to fill them as 4896

Tane ]441 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Quiclrlv a!'l we can. Tt is iust one of those th:!n2s, I am afraid Pe do not have an ans,,Ter no,.,. l•1e are havinp, di ffi cul ties all over the orovince. At the moment we are looi:inp. at the rate of P"V and the overa]l structure of the depots w1th rep.ar~s tn the mechanical situation. Hhat the future holds T hope will he an :!mnrovement. Certa:!nlv "e have not re,solved it yet. We are afraid there is little if anything we can do. !•fll SPFAKF.T': The llon. Leader of the nnnosition. HON.

E. • RORFP.TS: (I.rA nER OF TRE OPPOSIT in ): T have a question for the Minister of ForPs:try and Agriculture.

Could he indic;ite Please what steps if anv the ~overnment have taken to in any wav accommodate the TT:!shes of the l!roun of neonle, some of them in Clarenville, some of them located throughout the nrovince who wish at the very least to have the Pronosed sale of neid lots, I th:!nk it is 24?. and 104,held up until such t1me as the government can decide in consultation with the neonle involved whether or not the proposed sale of such lots is in the best interest of the province? '-'R • SPFA Jl'FP : The Hon. >!inister of Forestry and Ap.riculture. M? .• F.. HA~ARJ> ( I ' ISTF.P.

Ol' FORES~.Y All!n N:l!.ICill, Tl~ 'F): Well, nr. Snea~er, certainly the pronosed sale of the lots js not in the hest :!.nterei:;t of the nrovince. Pe have heen in contact verhally and by letter t.rith "!r. Reir1. He has refused to p.ive us the information we rPouested. '·1e are now lookinp. at other wa,rs and meam; of controllin,i: the land and nossihlv will have a further statement on it tC"morrow or Friday. >,fl). P.011F!1TS: Mr. ~neaker, I find the 1'lin1.ster's answer un.satisfactorv and l r,ive notice that I will invoke the nrov:lsion of ~tandinp.; Or<ler 31 (

g) which means - AN fl()N. }'m-!RFR: Oh! ~P. RnBF!ITS: Mr. Speaker, it is the rule of the House whic:h means that the matter will he dehatN1 "t 5:30 to1110-rrm,, afternoon. That is all 31 (p.;) means that it will he debated at 5: 30 tomorrow afternoon . •~. 1". 1.fARTIN: A supnlementary to that, 1"r. Speaker, a ouestion for 4897

Mlly 1, 1974 Tape 1441 (Afternoon) PK - 4 the honourable. ministe.r. of course, in ap.riculture. Has the minister made any effortor perhans does he already know the identity of the parties to whom this sale is being made? The other Party who are now nep.:otiatinp.: with ~ • MA Yl-TARn : Mr. Sneaker, the only source of the information we know of would he ~r. Reid himself and he has refused to give us that information. HR.. MARTIN: I have a question, Hr. Sneaker, for the Hon. the Premier.

I am wonderinp.: if the Premier could tell us whether or not he is aware that the delay :In nresenting the ~enort of the Roval Commission on Labrador is holding un several imJ)ortant projects including upgradin,z of the telenhone svstem alon,z the Labrador Coast and the Federal Rural and Native Housing Programme? "!I!. SPF.A.KER: The Hon. the Premier. HON. F. D. ·.100RES (PREMIY.R) : ~Ir. Sreaker, regardini:>: the Lahrador Commission Renort that,as I advised the member, I think out of the House, we nre getting a nrecis done of the renort.

I think :It is six or seven volumes,yea thick,and to read it in detail would take a considerable length of time. It is now being precised and a sul!lllary of each denartment, where it relates to them :l.n the report will be identifvinp.: with them. I hone to l,e able to tahle the report next week. Certa:h,ly there is no :Intention '1-•hatimever of anv nrop;rMm!es in Labrador heinp: delayed and if therehave heen we auolo17i,:e hut it l••as not certainly the intent, lf there has l,een. if the honourable member ~rill let me know snecifically we will certainly do 11hat we can about it.

"'P • SPF A KFP. : The honourable Member for Rell Island. ~'IP.. S. A. "IFAP.Y:. Mr. Snenlrer, would the Prell'tier indicate whe.ther this slllllfflary will 1-e translated into the F:sk:lmo lanp.uap;e or not? ~f'l. MOOPFS: Pell not onlv will the ffilllllnary be translated into the native languap.:es. Hr. Sneaker, but as will the whole renort eventually. ~- NF.ARY: Jdr. Sneaker, I would like - MP.. SPEAKro!: The honou:ral-le Memher for T.ahrador South. \.!F.. NEAJ!Y: I am sorry • ~IR. M. :M.A'R.TIN: ~Ir. ~oeaker, a Rupplementary question 4898

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1442 Page 1 - MW MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question which I would like to direct towards the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. It has something to do with this matter of the delay in the commission's report. I am wondering, in connection with this federal programme on rural and native housing, whether or not the minister's department has already undertaken liaison with the federal government in this respect.

The reason I ask this question is that there are a number of groups, including the Native Association, who have held preliminary discussions with the federal government but the federal government again say that they cannot do anyt.hing until the commission's report is made known. I am wondering if the minister has done anything in the interim. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the Hon. Member for Labrador South that about a week ago I met with a delegation from the native people and discussed this.

In the meantime officials of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation have been in touch with Mr. Basford's department in Ottawa to try to get clarification of his statement on native and rural housing programmes. I further understand that it is Mr. Basford's intention to come here sometime during the month of May, when he wishes to discuss this with us. In preparation for that we have already met with officials from C.M.H. C. and are drafting programmes, which we want to suggest,to Mr. Basford, should tie in very well with our own programmes which I have already announced.

It is my feeling that the programmes that we already have can be extended most certainly to native people,as they are Newfoundlanders. If there is to be any enlargement on these, particularly for the native people, I wish to discuss it with Mr. Basford. I think he is anxious to discuss it with me. MR. GILLETT : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Having full consideration for his vocal capacity, the answer will require just a yes or a no, I am wondering if the minister would look into the condition of disrepair of the equipment on both New World Island and Twillingate Island. I still use it as island, although they are connected. I understand that they have but one truck 4899

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1442 Page 2 to take care of all of New World Island at the 1110ment and the roads are in a very bad condition. Perhaps if the minister would be kind enough, would he see into this and see if he can get the repairs effected a little more rapidly and the roads put in better condition please? MR. HICKEY: Mr, Speaker, we are already aware of the situation. We do have some problems there, I can assure the honourable member that it is already under consideration. Some action has been taken. MR. SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

Now that the foregoing $4.7 million has been announced, the federal funding, DREE, for the Bay d'Espoir Highway, I wonder if the minister could indicate to the House whether his department is taking under consideration the possibility of upgrading the remaining eight miles of highway, this is the eight miles which would be in addition to the twenty miles on which tenders have been called and the eight miles would mean that the whole highway would then be upgraded or under contract? MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Pardon. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, now that the Minister of Industrial Development has told us what he knows, I will get on with the question. Now that a substantial amount of money has been announced by Mr. Jamieson for the Bay d'Espoir Highway, $4.7 million or some amount less, (I stand to be educated on the point) my question still stands, Mr, Speaker, I would like to know if the minister.would indicate to the House if his department has any plans to proceed with the upgrading of the remaining eight miles in the present fiscal year? MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, it would be discourteous indeed of me to give any detail of the DREE Argeement which is about to be signed in terms of particular projects or indeed what is to be done with 4900

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1442 Page 3 the money that is involved. May I just say that as soon as I can I will provide what details I can with regard to the DREE Agreement pertaining to highways. May I also say that we are very much aware of the most difficult situation on the Bay d'Espoir Highway. I think our efforts to do this road indicates our concern, our recognition of this. May I also add that I have held a number of discussions with regard to the overall situation, the remaining miles, the pavement of existing road that has been upgraded and so on. Mr.

Speaker, I assure the honourable member that that particular road has received a great deal of consideration from this government, particularly my department. I can assure him also that it will continue. MR. SPEAKER: Before the Hon. Member for Hermitage asks a supplementary questions, I would wish to advise members that there are five minutes left in the question period. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: I can appreciate the minister not wanting to be discourteous on the point. I do not know how he jives that with the announcement of the twenty miles before the agreement was announced.

Be that as it may, that is a matter for another time. All I have asked and perhaps I should not have tied my question to a reference to the Minister of DREL'S announcement but without the reference, Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate whether his department has plans,with or without federal funding, to undertake the upgrading of the road this year? MR. HilCKEY: Mr. Speaker, I indicated earlier in this session that I was not in a position, I felt that it was improper to give this kind of detailed information at this point in time.

I am certainly not in a position to answer that question to the honourable member's satisfaction because the answer he wants is, ''Yes, we are going to do that road." I cannot say that. If I were reasonably sure that we were going 4901

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1442 Page 4 to do the road, I still would, in my opinion, be unable to give such a commitment, I can say that we have intentions of paving every road in the province but when I cannot say. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we still have three or four minutes left, I wonder if I could return to the Reid land controversy, Sir, and ask the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry if his department has sought a legal opinion from the Justice Department as to whether or not the Reid Company had to fence their property at least once a year the same as every other private citizen has to do in order to protect their rights to the land under, I understand, British common law?

Could the minister give us an answer1 MR, MAYNARD: I am not aware, Mr, Speaker, that there is any requirement for fencing land in order to protect property in Newfoundland, Probably my colleague, the Minister of Justice, could tell me whether there is such a law or not? MR. NEARY: _MR. MAYNARD: MR. NEARY: question? Would the minister care to answer the question? (Inaudible). Would the Minister of Justice care to answer the AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR.

NEARY: Mr, Speaker, would the minister tell us then, while the Minister of Justice is thinking about an answer to that question, because everybody else has to do it in this province, if he has taken any steps io bill the Reid Company, to charge them for services rendered over the past forty or fifty years in connection with building forest access roads, spraying, fire protection, fish and game protection services and so on? MR. MAYNARD: Not that I am aware of, Mr. Speaker. There have not been any invoices submitted to the Reid Company for any of those services.

I am not aware at all that very many services have been rendered to the Reid Newfoundland people. 4902

May 1. 1974 Tape no. 1442 Page 5 MR. NEARY: Hr. Spe~er, a supplementary question: Is the minister looking into this to see if it is possible to charge the Reid Company for these services? They were supplied at the expense of the taxp.ayers. Why should we not recover the money? MR. MAYNARD: Forest access road.s are not built on private land in any case so we cannot very well charge them for forest access roads that have been built. Any that have been b11ilt on the Reid property have been built by Bowaters or Price \lllder their tenure agre~ments with the Reid people. 4903

May 1, 1974 Tape 1443 (afternoon) IB-1 As far as forest protection is concerned, the Reid people have very, very little left. Bowaters and Price again have the rights to most of that. So, I am sure that there is not much that we can charge them for in forest protection and access roads. }ffi. NEARY: Would the }finister of Justice care to answer the ------ Question pawned off on him by his col lcap:ue? Is the Reid Company compelled to fence the land the same as every other private citizen in Newfoundland has to do in order to protect their rights to that property? MR.

HICKMAN: I share the amusement of the honourah]e House Leader over there at that ouestion. I am not aware of any law that requires that. I think the honourable gentleman is confused with another doctrine of law where in certain jurisdiction - any court that is comprised of judp,es that know the law will agree, I am sure, with what I am saying, that it is only in cases where there has been constant use of the public, such as a right-of-way where the owners fence once a year.

I am sure that all Newfoundlanders who have unfenced land going back for generations would be most apprehensive over any suggestion by the honourahle 11:entleman that they had to fence it every year to maintain their rights. That is not so. MR. SPF.AKER: The Question period has now expired. xlR. NEARY: Just a quickie off to the Premier there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~'R. _NEARY: I wonder could the Premier give us a - MR. SPF.AKF,R: Order, pl.ease! Order, please! Order, please! The question period has expired and the question of the honourable member for Bell Island is not recognized.

It has just heen brought to my attention that we have in the galleries from St. r.eorge's a council dele~ation consisting of the Mayor, Mayor Kevin Hynes, councillors, r..oodyear, Cutler, Skinner and Carroll. I would certainly like to welcome these gentlemen to the galleries today. 4904

!-lay 1, 1974 Tape 1443 IB-2 This heing Private Yemhers nay we shall continue with motion number 13. '"F. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, hefore we p.et to that, Sir, I think Your Honour has tn call Orders of the day. AN HONOtTRABLE MF.MBER: Inaudible. ~~- NF.ARY: No. Yr. Speaker, und!'r Stanrling Order 23, Sir, I have a motion that I want to make. I think this is the time to do it, is it not?

Under Standing Order 23, Sir, I ask leave of the honourable House to adjourn this 11ouse, Sir. to r!iscuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the desirabilitv and the need for the government of the province to take immediate steps to har all increases in gasoline and heatin~ oil prices proposed hy the oil companies and that Jcgislation be enacted immediately to grant the Board of Commissioners of Puhl.ic Utilities the right to regulate the prices of heating oil and gasoline in this province. 1 have copies for Your P.onour and the clerk. MR. SPEAKE~: Order, nlease!

While this matter is certainly of great interest to all consumers in this province and indeea J suppose throughout the country, T do not feel that it is important ('nough to dj_spense with the regular priv;,te rnemberS' business of today to discuss the matter in question. 1'-lo tion number 13, as I recal 1 correctly, last clay just heforc six o'clock the opposition indicated tJ,at it was ready to vote on tJ,e amendment. T1'e r.c,vernment House T.earler indicated that the government perhaps was not qtiite ready as other members might wish to speak to this amendment.

Is there . an;!hody else who wi.shes to speak to this amendment? Otherwise I shall rut SRT'le. I put the amendment: It wl'\s moved by the honourable member from White Bay North, seconded by the honour ah le member from White Bay South, that all the words after that he deleted and the following words substituted therefore - everyhorly, I think, is familar with the wording of the amendment. All those rersons in favor of the amendn1en t, "Aye". 4905

May 1, 1974 Tape 1443 (afternoon) IB-3 Those against the amendment, "Nay". In my O{)inion the ''Nay's'' have it. AN HONOURABLE ME}IBER: On division, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On division. The honourable Minister without Portfolio. HON. W.W. MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): ¥r. Speaker, I am now speaking on the main motion.

It is not our intention,anyway I do not think, to go on for a lonp period of time because most of the matters relating to this motion have now been discussed and we have learned a lot from it over the past few weeks. r.ertainly one of the most startling thinr,s that we have learned about over the past few weeks that this has been debated is the $500,000 debt that is still owed by the Liberal Party to some reople in and around and ahout all over Newfoundland.

Some people are unkind enoue.h to suggest that this has something to do with their sudden desire after such a long period of time to have the election exPenses pa:!.d bv the oeoo] ,e of Newfoundland so that they can then be R.t least getting funds for the purpose of running the next election if not for the purpose of using some of it to repay nast debts. In any event. Mr. Speaker, this is a resolution certainly of some substance. It is a three-pronged motion brought forth by the member for St. John's North.

As has already been indicated in the debate, some people agree with all of it, Others agree with portions of it and I think,generally speaking, everybody in the House agrees with the dire necessity of having regulation of expenses during election cAmpaigns. The extent and how this is to be brought ahout is somethinf! really that government will have to consider. Government is considering it now and eventually, in the not too distant future, as has already been indicated before the next eJection,reasonable, rational measur~s will be brought before the House with respect of same.

There appears to be a divergence of opinion with respect to the use of public money for the purpose of financing election campaigns. While speaking on the amendment that has just immediately, a few moments ago been voted do~m. I had indicated my own personal feeling on the matter in that, although some do not 4906

'IRV 1, 1974 Ta!'e 11143 (afternoon) Ill-4 11p:ree, some do agree th11t -ruhlic monev ought not to re used in the circumstances here in 1',ewfoundiand,in order to protect the integrity of our own political institutions. I do not thinl< the people of Newfoundland can afford it. 0ther people feel differently with respect to it, as I say.

Amongst those people who propose thRt the monies he p;,id with a degree of sincerity, and that is not fo-r- the purpose of nrevious deh ts but they ta] k about th<' fact that it will eliminate the degree and the intensity of patronage that has heen p-r-acticed over a period of vears. The views of others a-r-e that there are other means of doing th11S such as purlic tenoerinp. a bill that is now before the House,Rnd other measu-r-es.

Certainly the public should not he ex!'eeted. as T sav, to nav for the purpese of eliminating na trc-na?e • Due to the base type of patronage to which this province has been subjected to in the past and the past fe~, vears, not only in the past fen ve~rs J,,,t in our history nrior to Commission of Government days , this province has r-een ranked with patronap.e as prohahly no other .i urisdiction in the Enplish speakinp world. The public shoulcl not he expected to hring about the l'tonia, as it were. or any tyPe of change by paying more for their nolitical institutions.

There is also argument which is appealing to a lot of persons and a lot of persons here on this side as well, who have pone through previous davs and known rr<:>vious situations. that is that the payment of pnh] ie money l'tvcs everybody a hetter chancP than thev harl hefore. This is cC'rtainlv a ver" vali_rl ohservation as manv peonl.e on this side can testjfy.

We have in this province today and we have had for quite some period of time a situation where t~e economjc power in this province is supportin~ a certain nolitical nower in consideration of !(ettin? certain economic aclvances, the neople on the other side then. namelv, the Progressive ronservative Partv at t},e time, The sanie holds true with the Ne., nemocr:itic Party or any of the rest of them who founc1 themselves very sore nut to find funds. There are other areas as well, i•r. Spea],p-r-, with respect 4907

~ay 1, 1974 Tape 1443 (afternoon) lB-5 to this matter, giving everybody a fair chance, that could also be implemented. It is a very complex problem. For example, I wonder 4908 ..

May 1, 1974. Tape 1444 (Afternoon) RH - 1 whether or not government ought to give attention in the near. future to enacting a provincial bill of rights, a bill of rights which would complement the Federal Bill of Rights that has been brought in,because the Federal Bill of Rights, of course, only applies to federal legislation. The reason I say this is for this reason: This is why it brings to mind, we are talking about political parties, financing campaigns and everybody having an equal chance. I can remember not too long ago and it was not too long ago when other members here were n,embers of a government.

I am not saying they participated in it directly themselves but certainly the climate was this way, asking individuals who expressed a sympathy with respect to having a change in the government, asking them to work in election campaigns for the party then in opposition,and havin~ been told by some of these people and one or two of them specifically worked for a national company, having been told directly myself by the manager of that company that it was the policy of that company not to allow their employees at any given time to enter into political activity.

This is absolutely untenable, I think,in any society and it ought not to exist. It does not exist now in our present climate but one of these days she is going to blow the other way again. It is going to be a long time. It is going to be perhaps a decade, maybe two decades away but one of these days they or their replacements are going to be back in over here so perhaps it would be better to have, perhaps there might be some validity in having a provincial Bill of Rights to enshrine once and for all as much as we possibly can and to protect the rights of the ordinary individual.

This has been a consistent policy of supporters of the Progressive Conservative Party because as everybody kuows we would not have a Canadian Bill of Rights if it were not for the initiative and the direction of the former Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, in this area and he has become well-known for it. This does not, of course, apply and I think it is necessary to point this out. The Canadian Pill of Rights does not really apply to laws that are administered,to matters that come under jurisdiction of the Provincial Government. So therefore to have full and complete protection, perhaps 4909

May 1, 1974 . Tape 1444 {Afternoon) RH - 2 as I say it is necessary for a r,overnment to give consideration to this so that individuals will not be ballyragged in the future:, that they wil 1 have freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom to join whatever political party thev wish regardless of the way in which the party in power at the particular time may be exercising its judgment. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I say this resolution is many pronged. It requires good and serious consideration. The member for St.

John's North is certainly to be complimented on his foresight in bringing in this resolution which has done exactly that which I know that he intended to be done,that is for the matter to be debated, Now obviously it has been debated for some period of time and there is no need to repeat many of the things that happened, that have transpired and been said over the past three weeks. However, there is one thing about the resolution that we have discussed, the honourable member for St. John's North and myself and the rest of our collea11;ues top.;ether have discussed.

It is .1ust merely a technicality really in the wording. It does not really change the resolution to any great degree but the way the resolution is worded and the honourable member for St. John's North has p.;iven his assent to this and he would ?robably be doing it himself but as everyone knows one cannot amend one's own resolution. It reads that this House requests the government to introduce legislation to govern and control. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am shortly going to propose an amendment to the resolution which is going to read then, to omit the word "introduce'' and insert in its place the words, "consider the introduction of". This will give the government the opportunity without feeling any great degree of compulsif'n but certainly an intention to examine particularly the regularity parts of the thing very closely. to assure that it complies with modern-day thinkinp and to discuss as we do openly in this party more fully and firmly the business with respect to public financing.

There is another, the disclosure contribution of course is the third prong 4910

May 1, 1974. Tape 1444 (Afternoon) RH - 3 with respect to it. Obviously there are some divergence, marked divergence of opinion with respect to the former but certainly with respect to financing of public funds, through public funds Tor elections. Certainly there can be no doubt that it is necessary to bring in strong and firm measures to limit the amount spent in election campaigns and nothing can be more evident of that than the huge and gigantic debt which still hovers over the party to which the members on the opposite side,with the exception of the honourable member for Labrador South,adhere.

So we can go that far, Mr. Speaker, for sure,and protect the people from themselves as it were. I feel and I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, that the resolution be amended to allow the government to continue its sincere enquiries into these items and to come in with legislation,which it has undertaken to do,touching upon these matters but in order to do this I th:tnk the best way to frame the resolution is to put in the words "consider the introduction of".

So I now move it and I trust that we would be able to dispose in this manner of this very valuable resolution after hearing what the mover of it wishes to say with respect to it,so we can move on to other business. MR. SPEAKER: The amendment appears to be in order. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, speaking to - MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am more than happy to yield my place to the honourable member for Hermitage if he wish to - MR. R. SIMMONS: nn the amendment. MR. CARTER: On the amendment, yes. 1 am not concluding the debate. Mr.

Speaker, I certainly comply with the amendment as moved by the honourable House Leader. In fact, were I not barred from making the amendment myself because I am the mover of the ~ain motion, I would have been inclined to make such a motion myself because since listening to all of the debate and since doin~ further research I have found that this is a matter that is extremely complex and will need a great deal of consideration. In fact any legislation that is brought in is bound to be, 4911

May 1, 1974. Tape 1444 (Afternoon) RH - 4 can only be of an interim measure. Now I realize that all legislation has a certain impermanence about it in that it can and always is superseded. · evertheless, I feel that even with the best will in the world this administration can only bring in something, some sort of stopgap measure until the years have gone by and greater wisdom has prevailed. I say this particularly because we are all aware, in fact we are made aware every day in the press, TV and radio, of the celebrated and notorious Watergate Affair.

If a country as populace, as sophisticated and as long established as the United States of America can get into the kind of trouble they have gotten into in spite of legislation that they have on their books and legislation that they have been passing since the 1968 election, presidential election and the 1972 presidential election, if they can get into the kind of trouble they have obviously gotten into then certainly it is most necessary to consider rot only the type of legislation we will bring in our­ selves but also to consider it in the light of legislation that has been brought in by other countries and chiefly by the United States.

Now it is in this connection that I wish to speak. I was going to save this material for summing up and closing the debate. However it will not take me too long to go through it. Any time I use now, I will naturally use less time when I s\DU up. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the member would speak up. We cannot hear him over here. MR. CARTER: Sorry! 4912

"fay 1, 1974 Tape 1445(;,fternoon) IB-1 Sir, certainly. The microphone is on. ~•!I :__!!EARY: We Pant to hanp.; on to every word. ~'R. C~RTF.R: Good! ~ood! I approve of the honourable member for Bell Island ' s what? HR. MARSHALL: We would invite him ever only ~,e would be afraid he ~,ould sit. ~ -f.2.~RTEP.: Yes, if the honourable member for Rell Island would like to Sl.t here, we would he more than happy. I will speak right into his ear. '·'R. NEARY: I will sit in the 'linister of Finance's seat. !-IR. CARTER...:.. Proper thing. Now I do not even have to speak up. AN HONOURABLE ~!-'BER: Now, heave it out. ~'R.

CARTEP.: Mr. Speaker, this must he a new - A"i HONOURA..TlT.E MF"BF.F: Just do not turn hack on to him that is all. MR. NEARY: Go ahead. rarry on now. '1R. CARTFR: So, the act that I wish to speak about is the Kennedv, Scott Act that was brourht in tn the llnited States and made law on February 7, 1972. Now, it is called the Kennedy, Scott Act. The Kennedy of course is the well lrnown Senator Kennedy, the brother of President Kennedy. He is a Senator. Scott would be congressman Scott who was the person who steered this act through the lower House or tht House of Congress.

Now, this legislation is America's response, their legislative response to the Watergate type situation. Now, the Watergate break-in had not happened when this legislati.on was first conceived and debated and brm1ght into law. Yet, I think that if this legislatfon had been on the books or had been lonf(er established and had been adhered to during the 1972 Presidential Election a great deal of the trouble that Presinent Nixon got into, he would have avoided.

When we speak of Watergate, what we are really speaking a1'out is not the break-in of the Waterl(ate building but really the unbridled use- of government power to get re-elected. Now, the former administration was past master at this particular activitv. Ai !-lONOlTRABLE l•fP'P,ER: How come we arc over here? 4913

t~ay 1, 1974 Tape 1445 IR-2 1-'P._ CAPTER: Well, they shot their bolt and then people got sick of them. It happens. It is a great danger. One can get away with it. As President Lincoln said, "You can fo,-,]. all of the people some of the time." AN HONOURABLE MEMBEF: ''Rut only some of the people all of the time." MR. CARTER: Right. lio, I will very quickly go through this legislation and the implications. It starts out, as every bit of legislation does, with

definitions. The communications media is first to find and it is given a very broad

interpretation. It includes not only rad:f.o and television, newspapers. magazines and billboards - of course, billboards are much more common in the United States than they are here - it even includes telephones if they are used for canvassing. Now, this is not telephones for communication between headquarters but telephones when used in telephone canvassing. The offices that this legislation is co~cerned with is the federal elective office of president, vice-president, senator or congressman. Of course, all residents eighteen years or over are eligible to vote.

I do not know if I need to go over some of the differences between the cabinet and the American system for this House but there are some fundamental differences. If anyone has any questions, I would be more than happy to say what I understand to be the difference between the cabinet and the American system. One of the chief differences - I will not go over all the differences but one of the chief differences is in their use of primaries. These are really like very elaborate nominating conventions. Of course, voters in the United States usually register their party affiliatirn. Now, this may seem surious.

I would suggest that perhaps we could take a leaf out of their book. It might he better if supporters of a various party wore a badge or perhaps were branded or perhaps wore a ring in their nose to signify their erstwhile facility. This might be a useful device for knowing who is who and what is what. 4914

''ay 1. 197b Tane 1445 IB-3 In any event, I have spoken with a couple of congressmen in the l'nitecl States and they assured me that it always was a much more arduous task to get nominated than to get elected. In fact, they spent much more of their own funcls getting nominatecl. This is an election within tJ-,eir own p11rtv, al!'ong their own party supporters where on1v 11 registerecl democrate or a registered republican may vote. Of course, they wou]cl not have official status until they han won the primary or the nomination if you like.

Of course once they win the primary and are the ofHcial candidate, then a great deal of the expense is borne by the of fidal party. AN HONOFl>ABLE 11EMRE1': Inaurliblc. MR. CARTE!': Delighted to have him so close. Now, one leaf that we could take out of this lep.;islati.on is that all communications media must charge the same rates that they would use for normal advertising. Now it has heen my experience that newspapers, particu] arly here in Newfoundl1md, have a special nolitical rate. Now whether or not this is a rate for politicians or .iust the hiphest applicahle rate , I do not know.

I do know that nolitical advertising i,; extremely expensive when compared with ordinary advertising. I dn not know what the larfe chain stores pay for a page but I would suggest that they must pay considerahly less than a political party has to pay for a full page. I do not see how a person could afford to use the ne~,spapers on any wide basis. ~ !:'..!._ ROWE: Would the honourahle member permit a question? ~- CARTER: Certainly, yes. ~. W. POWE: The honourable member is being inordinately eloquent today compared to his former speeches in the Bouse.

Could his eloquence be stimulated in any way by this political inspiration that sits immediately in front of him1 Is th11t the reaRon why he is so eloouent today? ''R. CARTF:P: \./ell, there is a certain aura coming from the 1'onourable gentleman. Since the olfactory area of the hrain is a very larp.e one 4315

May 1, 1974 Tape 1445 rn-4 ~ . ~EARY_:_ I have my underarm deodorant on. MR. C~~'!:.~~ There is a certain stimulation obviously. ~~~F.~_!lY: I was in the hen house this morning. I do not know if the honourable member is getting the whiff of that "l'." not. MR. CA!'TER: Now, another interestin~ facet of this legislation is that while we have talked about general overall limitation of expenses, that is to say, during the course of this debate - AN llONOllRAllLE ME}fBER: Inaudible. MR.

CA_!TEF,_~ Coming events , In the course of this debate, the point has been made that a politician or a political party should he limited in the funds that they spend on a given campaign. Well, now in this Kennedy - Scott legislation they do discuss limitation hut they discuss limitation under various headinrs, The first headinP- is there is a limitation of expenditures for the media. In otheT words, there is a limit to how much a candidate or a party may spend on the media.

Of course the media is defined . lt is given a hroad definition, as I said earlier - radio. television, newspapers, magazines, billboards and teleJhones used for canvassing. The act 1tself goes into even greater detail but I need not bother the !louse with all the details. Again the act sets forth when a nerson is considered to he a candidate1 a person becomes a candidate as of a certain date. The definition they use is either January 1 of the year in which he runs for the election or when he first extensively spends money on a campaign, be it a campai gn for congressman, senator. vice· ·president or president.

Now. furthermore, not only is anv money that the candidate spends considered money spent on his campaign but any money srent on behalf of the candidate. If a candidate has some friends who put up some money for him and run a miri - campaign for his benefit, yet the candidate may know nothing ahout it , then surely this is beyond the control of any legislation. Thi.s narticular act - I have not got the regulations with me and I do not know what regulations have been proposed under this 4916

May 1, 1974 Tlffle lli45 JII-S act hut newrtheless t,ey set out to try to place so1ne control and lillitation upon the 11110unt of monev tt>nt ia SJ'lcnt on behalf of the candidate, I think that honourahlc members 1111ght consider this later·on when the ~overnmcmt undertakca to set forth proper legiaJation, The re,uJations the~selves will be sent for and p.one owT ia llioute detail, The le~islation also Reta out that any ch•~• that 8re ude, any IIIOtle,' that is obvioualy in• ~olitical CUftflailtft - one doe• flOC y,a, caah fc,r a•,wrychia,, on• has to chArJO OIIMl thin1111 if oaly for adllini•tratiw convenience ,111

May 1, 1Q74 Tape 1446 (Afternoon) J>l{ - 1 and the charges will not he recognized or will not be recognized in law unleRs they are authorized in writing hy the candidate. Now I think that this gives the suppliers of political paraphernalia and nolitical services great protection because all too often election bills do not get paid.

Very often they are the type of bills that are uncollectable. ' 1 <lh, so and so Raid, 'thev would pay me for driving.' l drove all election day and I did not get any monev for it.' Well under this tyne of legislation the Person would not be able to even nresent such a hill without nroner authorization. There would be no argument. There would be no argument in law. I think it regularizes the business of campaign funding, financi.ng and snendinll( much better than we do here.

The person who is resnonsible for drawing up rell(ulations to see that this act is enforced, is the Comproller General and this nresumahlv is one of the president's secretariat and of course the president chooseF. his cabinet not from smong elected officials but from the general nublic. J nresume they have to be Pnited States citizens, although I am not even sure on that point. Then, of course, the legislation naturally by its very nature by prescribi.ng penalties amend!' the Criminal Code of the United States to that extent. Again. this nart of the act sets out

definitions. It defines what is an election. Who is a candidate. What is a federal office . Then it goes on to define something that we are not probablv familiar with, namely. a prlitical committee. If I might .1ust ouote or paraphase from this act. A nolitical committee means any tndividual committee,assodation, or11:anization which accepts contributions or makes exuenditures during the calandar year in an aggregate amount exceeding $1,000.

So therefore, any groun or person or nersons who undertake to snend an amount in excess of $1,000 in anv one year for political purnoses are considered to be a political committee. These political committees are given the status of a complete entity and are forced to make the same lrind of declaration that a candidate is exoected to make. This is onlv right and proper, I would suggest. lie clo not have too much exPerience with nolitical committees as such here in Newfoundland or in Canada. I supnose it is hecause of the 4918

1fav 1, J_q74 Tane 144~ (Afternoon) PK - 2 ?.rP11ter nonulatinn densitv and thP very s:17.e of the const1tutenc1es. S:1.nce there are only ion senators in aJl of the T.!n:!ted States, a simTJle nrocess of divi.sinn can oi"e von snTTie irlea of the ene.nnou1a nnmherss of persons in 1111" one constituency, it would he in the m11lion!". Tt couJrl be two million, three million, four million or even five million in a constituency. So it is ohviousl.v necessarv to delegate a great deal of author:lty and nower.

You know to P.'O -'It an election for a senator T would thtnk or a conp;ressman in the l'n:lted States woulrl he ah,ost 1Simi]ar to one of our nrovinc1al Plection,i 11nd would reciuire iust as TTiuch ors>an:l:i:at:lon and 1u,;t as TTiuch delepation. ~o nolitical committees are Much '!'OT.e col'll!1on in the 1Tn1.ted States than thev are :In C'.,i,i,1.rla. It h;is 1'ePn found de,a:lrahJ.P and nece,asarv to Now liere i.s RnMethiTIJ!' that T th:lnk :1 s the nP.xt stage - here is soMeth1ng ou1.te unusual hut worth considering nerharis.

There is :In law, under t1'is :i.ct, a liM:lt:i.tion on the contr:lbut1on and/or e.x'f'enditure that a candidate may ma!~e fr.om hiss own nersonal. funds to his O'!Jil campai1m. lllow th:ls sounds crazy at first sight. 'rhe candidate for thP. Presidencv of tlie "nl terl f:tates ma.v onlv contr:lhute from hi,; nersonal func"s $50 , nnn. '!'hat ls the maximuM th11.t hP. mav snend of his own monev. No~•' how you cou] d p;o a'hout f indinp; out ho,-1 mucli a canrli<late had suent of h:f.,; own money, I do ,..ot l·no, -•. I woulr1 verv muc1' HJ,e to see the repulat1ons and how they - A~l un:.1.

Mfl"T\J'"R: Tnaur11h1e. ---·- ------ Pardon? Ml> r.,A,R1'ET? '. m,, T t'!,inl, it is seening in hy osmosis;. Hut nevertheless the act. s e ts out ;;ind tr:l .es to limit the amount of monev that a canrl:!date mav snend . A presidential candfrlate is S50,n~n or vice-president, a senator or congressman S3s,nnn.

That is the maximum that he mav snend from his own resource fl. rontributions from contractors who do husiness with the T.Tn:I te<l States Government are jJl,,P:al. llnrler thi1a act the contr11.ctrir or a firm doing 'h1rnines,; directlv ,.•i th the Tlnitecl f;tates r.overnment, it may not contri hute to a nolitical nartv. 4919

TanP. 144~ (flfternoon) PK - 3 /I third nnrt of th1,; act calls for disclosure. Of course this :Is a federal act, :It does not control thP. various states. Tt is stil 1 reFtricted to the senator or the president, vice-president, senator and congressman. Rut 1t calls for the disclosure of the names and the addressP.s of all contributor!', 1i!o~• al J cont.ri. 'h1tnr" o,,er $1On that :Is, Obviously 'lconle who mah~ contrihut:lons of less than $1nn would either he too llumerous or could not exnect or Nould r,ot trv to get any political favours for small contrihutions.

I th:fnl· for the sake of administrative efficiencv-hasing a limit live $1nn makes good sen!'e. FurthP.rmore, the candidate or the political committee must declare the amount ,,~ cash on hand that thev have in thP. heg:1.nning of a camna1 l!'n. So it is 1ust Hve a hus:lness, thev have to suhmit to a nroner audit. Also thP.,, must declare the total of contrihutioni;. Now the total of contri.rutions would ohviouslv he p,reater than the total of declared contr:lhutions }-ecause of th:fi; S] no clam,e.

Furthermore, the names and addresses of all political committees and all neonle on such a co\1111:lttee have to he g:lven. F.ach loan that :Is given to a candidate has to he declared. So if a candidPte should go out and horrm ,• monev excent from a bank or a nroner lending institution, that is his own hus:lness obviouslv,hut any loar that is made to the candidate has to be declared.

Furthermore. all the nroceeds from fund-raising camoa:lpns, this Poul cl hP. fund- raising d:I nners, dances, various nossihl v sweens and tickets, all the various fund-raising activities that a nolitical nartv engages in, the contrihutions of the nroceeds from such camoaigns have to he declared, disclosed. Furthermore the grand total of all such cnntrihutions. nersonal and other, .,j se, and nroceeds must he declared.

Furthermore the names and addresses of all rec:lnients of an expenditure over $Inn must be declared, that is to say. all the neon] e ~,ho have supplied naranhernal ta, nrovided a service for wl1ich thev were sunnose to be paid. Thr names and addresses of all naid camnaip;n workers must be declared, no "latter hop little they are, they do receive. Furthermore the total of all such exnenditures must he declared. Also the total of all debts incurred and the amount and their nature and the nerson to whom all 492.0

~!ay 1. l'l74 Tare 144~ (Afternoon) PK - 4 debts are incurred and the llffl(')Unt and trPir nature and the oer~on to vhom thev arc om:•rl. AN l!f'I!'!. ••p•~F.P, '1'R. CAPTE!' : or thr. other? Inaudihle. Phat it I,as for. you know. Pa!; it for d2ns? This, that Furthemore all such :lnforrnat"\nn which 111av he renuired hy anv author:17.ed officer under thi s act. Thfs r ec:1me law on fehruary 7, 1°n. M~ P<'tJ~•-~ 'P,efore ''aterr.ate. ~- C'A"'l'F.": It would re l,efore l-laterv.ate but H wou.ld he after, no 1 t would be before taxon hecame Prc~:l.f!Pnt. Inaudil-le. Pell ft "does not wort, verv Pell, ol,vi.ouslv.

You !:now, whRt 1Mn can do. ft can :1lso he undone. Tt al110 11e.t~ fortl, 1-'hen rc.,ort!'; must hP. filed. !'oP tnanv copfes . ./hether it is to be lod~ed . Now also, much the same and I will not quotP.. 4921

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1447 Page l - MW MR. CARTER: I will not ~ore the members of the House by going into it in detail but much the same kind of declaration disclosure and limitation applies to conventions. Now, of course, the United States has many, many conventions. They have a convention to choose their president and they have various what they call primary conventions in order to pick the delegates to go to the national convention, who will choose the party's candidate for president and vice-president.

Political parties in the United States are active probably all the time, when one considers that congressional elections take place every two years and one third of the senators are elected every two years and when one addto that the state and mllllicipal elections. A political party or a branch of a political party in the United States must be constantly active. In fact this is one of the tragedies of political parties in Canada and in Newfolllldland and that is that we are not required to be active all the time. There is a burst of activity and we either elect or fail to elect a government.

After that we tend to go into the doldrums. This is a pity but, of course, it is the nature of our political system I suppose. There ~111 be shortly, I would gather, a flurry of activity when the federal election is called. The federal election tends to be run along different lines than provincial elections. The outcome is not as vital to the immediate interests of the province, although I would argue otherwise. I would agree that the outcome is not felt to be as urgent as the outcome of a poltical provincial campaign. That is the act.

There are further acts, one for incentives for contributions for candidates to public office. Now these are very minor but in other words it does not look like a lot but what it is, it is a tax credit and not a taxable deduction, In other words, one may give twelve dollars and fifty cents a year to a political party but that comes right off one's tax. Now that is the same as in our terms if a person donated a hundred dollars, so tax credit means considerably more than a taxable deduction. 4922

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1447 Page 2 In effect what they are saying is that one may direct a certain proportion of ones taxes towards the p~litical party of ~nes choice. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. CARTER: This is something we do, although we do not control all the income tax. We do control some of the provincial income tax and this might be a device that we could look into too. AN ':ION. MEMBER: Like giving to a church, MR. CARTER: Yes, like giving to a church. Well some persons pray to the politicians and some politicians prey on the public. So, I will just very briefly, very quickly run through thi3.

AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: We wish to give the honourable gentlemen an opportunity to speak on this amendment and then we get back to the main motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR.

CARTER: While here in this province members have certain mailing rights, the opposition office has certain mailing rights, a certain amount of their vote may go to secretaries and privileges of sending out mail and circulars and while members and ministers may have the same privilege, both the Federal Government in Canada and the State Government in the United States have considerably greater mailing privileges and, of course, the term they use is the "franking" of mail.

Obviously, the officesof the president and the vice-president may send out as much mail as they wish, I presume, to anyone, anywhere, in the world. There are some controls put in. Very briefly,it goes over public documents, congressional records under frank, members of the Congress, that is to say, any member of congress may send out, free of 4923

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1447 Page 3 charge any part of the congressional record and I pres\lllle the speeches he made himself or the speeches that would interest his particular constituents. It discusses here the lending or permitting, the use of the frank unlawfully and, of course, the use of the frank can certainly be open to some abuse. Surviving spouses of ~mbers of congress are given certain franking privileges. I think this is only fair because the members of Congress and Senate of the United States do use their mails a great deal more than we do.

The coDDnon cry of writing your member - people write in their opinions on every major bit of legislation and in fact l think the congressmen and senators judge their legislative response to a particular act largely on the basis of the volume of mail that they received. Of course, under the American system the party disciplines are not so strict and the congressman or senator may and frequently does vote as his conscience or more often his district dictates.

Whereas here under the cabinet system, we tend to adhere more to party loyalty. Of course, the opposition feels it incumbent upon itself to criticize everything the government does and the government feels it incU111bent to praise everything the government does. It does,unfortunately, in my view, bring a certain note of insincerity into our deliberations. It is as if the whole thing were being elaborately staged. Mr Chairman, I would suggest that this is why the galleries are more often emplty than full. l do not think we are as relevant as we could be or as relevant as we should be.

I think it is partly the fault of our political system. I do not have any suggestions for remedvin~ this but I do see it as a genuine criticism. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island has suggested, sotto voce,that we bring in television cameras. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 4924

May 1, 1974 Tape no, 1447 Page 4 MR. CARTER: Yes, yes, very sotto. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: I have a few more points, some general comments, just other related acts. the polls. MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: It is illegal in the United States to bring troops to Could the honourable gentleman elaborate? This may seem obvious but it is unlawful for the army or the armed forces to overawe the voters at the polls. AN HON. MEMBER: In NewfoW1dland? MR. CARTER: No, in the United States. Anything goes in NewfoW1dland, I think.

Quoting from memory, I recall a particular election in Gander where the entry to the polling station in Glenwood was barred from public use by a ditch something like ten feet in depth and the only access to the poll was over a slenger piece of Z'x 4"and since most of the voters in that area were elderly, very few of them had the courage to cross over on this shakey piece of 2" x 4." Fortunately our then Leader of the Opposition was equal the contractor - MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible). to the task and he forced MR. CARTER: It was a Tory victory at the time.

AN HON. l!EMBER: That is the day they stopped the paving down there, MR. CARTER: Yes, that is the day they stopped the paving down in Peterview. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. CARTER: As a result of the activity of our then Leader of the Opposition the ditch was filled in and the voting continued uninterruptedly. MR NEARY: Was that Noel Murphy or •• ? MR . CARTER: No, no, it was Gerry Ottenheimer. for the information of the Hon. Member for Bell Island who again inquired. Interference by the armed forces is quite illegal in the United States election.

Although it is apparently in the campaign to have Negro voters registered in the south 9 and troops were often required to give them free passage but this was voter registration. 4925

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1447 Page AN HON. MEMBER: The same thing on Bell Island. MR. CARTER: Intimidation of voters is also considered to be improper, quite improper. Interference by civil servants is not allowed, There are also special regulations 5 4926

May 1, 1974 Tape No. 1448 N1'1 - 1 for the polling of armed forces and also there are some regulations to control the misuse of welfare and misuse of the enforcement of the welfare vote. ~"". NEARY: How about the DOSCO assets? "!ll .• CARTER: That would cover the honourable member for Bell Island quite adequately.

I think it is not proper to SUl!'gest, in fact I will try and locate the relevant passage because this might be of particular relevance for the honourable member. 'Whoever uses any part of any appropriation made by Congress for work relief, relief or for increasing employment by nroviding loans and grants for public works projects or exercises or administers any authority incurred by any appropriation act for the purpose of interfering with, restraining or coersin1t anv individual in the exercise of his right to vote at any election, shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more than one year or both . ..

So it is not looked upon very kindly. They also discu~s in legislation the promise of an appointment by candidate. In other words if a candidate should secure electoral support by promising jobs, this is looked after and there is a fine of $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than two y•ars or both. Promise of employment or other benefit for political activities and/or deprivation of employment or other benefit for political activity is similiarly illegal.

The solicitation of political contributions is regulated and again if I might read part of the relevant act, ''Whoever bein!', a senator or representative in or delegate or resident commissioner to or candidate for congress or individual elected as senator, representative delegate or resident connnissioner or any officer or employee of the United States or any department or any agency thereof, or the person receiving any salary or compensation etc. directly or indirectly solicits, receives or is in any manner concerned in soliciting nr receivinr, any assessments, subscription or contribution for any political purpose 4921

May 1, 1974 Tape No. 1448 NM - 2 whatever and any other such officer, employee or nerson shall be fined not more than $5,000 or imprisonment of not more than three years or both." Not 111(1re than three years and not more than $5,000. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CARTER: So there it is, Mr. Speaker. I would be more than happy to make this particular legislation available to the government for consideration in making or bringing forth any bill to control or limit or contribute towards the election of any candidate or political party. When speaking to wind up the debate I shall have some further comments to male.

I believe the honourable member for Hermitage or perhaps even the honourable member for Bell Island wish to have something to say on the amendment so I give notice to him now over the microphone, presumably he is in the Opposition Common Room and if he should wish to come out and speak on this debate, I am about to sit down and I will be ~ore than happy to yield the floor to him. So there it is, Mr. Speaker. I look forward to having a little more to say on this before the debate i  concluded. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a few comments with respect to the amendment on this motion, the amendment put by the honourable the Minister Without Portfolio. I understand it is to ask leave to introduce and consider the introduction of, Consider the introduction of: First of all it was certainly revealing, Mr. Speaker, to listen to the Minister Without Portfolio. Anything he says is worth listening to, if for no other reason that he so rarely says anything in this House.

He manages to say a fair amount outside the House, indeed he seems to spend most of the weekend on the radio telling the people how it is in his version insofar as what goes on in the House is concerned. The people of Newfoundland are learning very quickly of course that what goes on in this House is not necessarily the minister's version of what goes on. 4928

May 1, 1974 Taoe No. 1448 NM 3 C oncerninp; the subject at band, Mr. Speaker, I was sayiOA that it is revealing to listen to the member for St. John's East and anybody who has listened to him just for so brief a period as I have during this present session must have come to realize that if anybody be the master of sanctfinony he be and if anybody be the 1113.ster of insinuation and innuendo, he is as well. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The Chair certainly fails to see the relevancy of the comments by the lllelllber for Hermitage to the amendment as proposed. MR.

SIM1«lNS: I was just about to seek to show that relevancy. I was going to wonder out loud as to whether the insertion of t .he new phrase, "consider the introduction of," was an attempt at innuendo, insinuation, sanctimony. What? It could not have been done with l straight face, Mr. Speaker. It could not have been done with a straight face, no way. There is only one other possible reason other than those I have wondered at and that is the one that I believe is really the case. I believe it is just another attempt by the Minister Without Portf-0lio to filibuster on this particular motion.

It is becoming pretty obvious now to anybody watching the proceedings that the name of° the g·ame insofar as the govermnent is concerned is to stay on motion number thirteen as long as po.ssible. Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is appropriate we have a quorum call. I would like at least to have a quorum to hear the world shaking stuff I have got to say on this subject. 4929

May 1, 1974. Tape 1449 RH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Would the clerk count the House please? We have a quorum. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the real reason for the member for St. John's East, the Minister without Portfolio, introducing this amendment is the one that is so obvious in the whole debate on this motion and that is the government's continuing tactic of filibustering on this matter. The game is pretty clear, pretty obvious. The longer we talk on this one the longer it will be before we come to the housing resolution number

(14) I believe on the Order Paper, the one that follows the one we are discussing. That is one thing that government does not want to have to address itself to. So the game is clear. Stay on this one if necessary the rest of this session by whatever method. Let us look at the present method. Let us look at the amendment which has just been introduced this afternoon. We take out the word "introduce" and we put in the words "consider the introduction of". Well one could assign all kinds 9f motives but let us be overly kind about it.

"Consider the introduction of", the effect of that particular wording of course is to allow any person on the govern­ ment side,once the amendment is carried to allow anybody on the govern- ment side to rave on on the then amended ~otion without once committing himself to anything in the main motion. So it manages.after some embarrassment, after a week, I am sorry, a month or two of embarrassment on the part of the government being caught unawares by the introduction of the motion by the member for St.

John's North, a matter that he must have gotten some disciplining on after the fact, a matter that he must have been told about in no uncertain terms once he had pulled his "boo boo", not a "boo boo" as far as he is concerned, Mr. Speaker nor as far as I am concerned. I think it took courage to introduce this but courage so often does not get rewarded as courage should. I would suggest that the reward of the member for St. John's North on this matter was something less than he deserved under the cir­ cumstances.

He did exercise courage and he was taken to task for it privately, I am sure, and after that was dealt with, after the matter of 4930

May 1, 1974. Tape 1449 RH - 2 disciplining him was dealt with for doing such an unheard of thing as introducing this without consulting his colleagues, having done that, having exercised his prerogative as a member in a democratic way and having done that and having been chastised for it, the next game of course, the next onus on the part of the Minister without Portfolio was to find some way around it, Now it took him a couple of months but he finally found it, First they talked as long as they could, Mr.

Speaker, on the amendment introduced by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, When they could carry that through no further they said, "Well, let us let this come to a question.'' Then we have another one which will do exactly what we would have liked to do, namely, put some wording in there that avoids the question completely.Because now the amendment when passed as I have no doubt it will be, when passed the operative wording will be, "consider the introduction of". The door is completely open, It is a completely wide open discussion as to what should go into that legislation.

All it will then say is "consider the introduction of legislation". It is a pretty neat game, Mr. Speaker, and I suppose there is no way really to avoid it, We on this side will in the course of the debate still say what we feel about election financing. We are under no illusions that the government is going to rush out and do this.

Anyway we had hoped that since one of the government's members had introduced it they would at least stand by their colleaF,ue, they wou]d at least have a look at it and see if there was some legislation, however weak, but something along the lines that their colleague had been looking for. With their amendment they are going to destroy even that possibility now. ''Consider the introduction of;' When? Next year? Five years from now? Ten years from now? Ifone had listened. Mr.

Speaker, to the speakers on the government side thus far, one would have been lead to believe that they thought about nothing else for the last two years. God knows that has been enough considering,or do they want to buy some more time? How much more time? 4931

May 1, 1974. Tape 1449 RH - 3 Where now is that, the knight in shining armour, the Minister of Finance, who felt so strongly about this two, three, four years ago that he was not only prepared to call on the government to introduce or call on the government to consider the introduction of this? No, he was so entranced about the need for this kind of legislation that he went off himself and had a bill drafted and brought it in as a private members bill, Now I agree, Mr.

Speaker, that times have gone by, three or four years have gone hy and perhaps there is time now for some ideas,ideas for some alteration in the wording of the private members bill. I do not know exactly what the overall wording was at that time but I certainly know the overall intent of it. That was the Minister of Finance when he was in opposition, Mr. Speaker, rearing to go, had the bill all ready, brought it in as a private members bill, stood here and defended it and spoke lo_ng and hard on it as did his colleagues then in opposition. Now, Mr. Speaker• they are in government.

Now the most they can do in the name of controlling election expenses. the most they can do is play with the wording, find any delaying tactic at all, find any way possible to delay this so it never comes to the crunch, so it never comes to the point where they on that side have to take a stand on the subject, "Consider the introduction of", they are playing with the member for St. John's ~orth. They are teasing him. They are making fun of him in front of the House and in front of the public. AN HONOUR.ABLE ME'fBER: Inaudible. MR.

SIMMONS: Well I am glad that the Minister of Energy has learned one lesson since he is in this House. He is too big totease and I advise the Minister of F.nergy not to tease him. Notice I have not teased him. I do not intend to tease him. I look up to him, believe me, Every time he stands near me in the elevator. every time he gets in the elevator he wants to vote, he wants to vote because he knows he and I agree on most things pnd he thinks I would add his vote on the subject, or he would have mine on the subject. When he gets in this House of course it is a different matter.

All his colleagues are watching how he votes 4932

May 1, 1974. Tape 1449 RH - 4 and so I have a feeling he votes differently her e than he had voted in the elevator or in the privacy of his own conscience. MR. EVANS: One does not vote in the elevators. MR . SIMMONS: Who told the honourable member? AN HONOURABLE MEMllER: Oh, now! That is so low. MR. SIMMONS: Tell us about what? _AN HONOURABLE MP.MBER: The $500,QflO . Row despicable! J'IR· SIMMONS: "L do not know much about, Mr. Speak e r, 1 do not know much about the $500,000. I have heard the Minister without Portfolio - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: rnaudible. MR. SIMMONS : I see.

Well now that would cer tainly be a consideration. Mr. Speaker. I vould have to take into account, I vould certainly hav,e to take into accoun t but in the meantime I do appreciate the conc e rn 4933

T,me 145" (lfternoon) PK - l of the tel!'nor11rv ''emhPr for PlacP.ntia Pf>Rt on t1'e 11uh1ect, the man who I :Indeed mav ta~P. on in thP. nPxt provincial elpction. /IN ~mr1. ''F"Rl'l': '•'hat is that? What i" that? - - - ------- 1'R • ST'"'0~'S : He] 1 J 11avP. had an invitation fro111 the '-'emher for - --- - Placenti11 l~est. vou Ree, ir, this House, Hr. SneaJ.--er, and I h:we heen lool·inP- into th~ nos,aihilities. A~! rmN. ''E''Bfll: In:mc'tihJ.e. --- - ·---- •m .. spn-<ONS • noes; hp mean that? T am looking into i.t, reallv lool. · i.nP-·- - ----- into it. But aho11t thP $511n,nn11, ''r.

Sneaker, let n,a t;ilv ;ihout th,.t. If thev ~-·:mt to t11ll, 11hout it, let us talk ;ibout that for a little Phile. 'Parkis, that iR very relevant, we are talldnP ahout election financing. E:,qil ain t t to M111, ''Leo". AN F.C1N. M8!BJ'll: Tm1uc'tible. MR. SIMM<'NS: ------- 0h. no that was only $l,. 7 111tllion, ninetv per CPnt of $4. 7 mH]1on. MR. DOODY: •n:i • S Il"HONS : Well. almost ore half million. Goc't,he i" learninp.:! He :110 learninp.,that fellow. It is amazing Sir. "r. Snpalrer, whc.n vou move out of a J :I ttl e isunermarket to a big office,,..hat you can learn. _AN HON. ''J'l-11\l'R: ~ro,.

SP"-'ONS, -------- Inaudi.hle. Hr. Sneaker, we lost iso111e of Clur liahil i ti PR. I have Proof that the J :I ah:! lities exist hut ;,e have loist some liabil i tiei,.

I still h11ve the memhershi n card showinp that we had lia1,il 1. tie is li1·e the Member for Plac<>ntia West, We Joist tl-at 1-inc't of a l:lariJity, and the '!Pmher for 'Port au 'Port, ~•ho normallv sits over there when he is not s:!.ttim;, elsewhPre and the t'1nister of ... t,..,ance and the MiniFtter of JuFttice and the 'Hn:1 ster of Mun-l cipal Affairs and the >•em1'er for Green Bay, the Memrer for Pl:tcPntia Past, who f s slidin.'1'. further dot•>n in his seat ho!linp: I Pill not see him, ,,,e lost a.11 of thesP liahilit:!es, '-'r. Speaker, everv Jast one of them. 'IR. v. "1. 1mwr: Worth $Sn1'1,nnn.

Inaudih]e. We •-1111 at that. 4934

AN 'f!()N. lolE'l-'lll'R : 11.!R. c;p-1)',!0NS: AN HON. '-'El-'llF.R: ~. ~J}ll'IONS: Tape 1450 (Afternoon) Inaudihle. Pe will at that. Inaudihle. 'Ile di.-1. t::ood,•-•a!a -f.t not, eh? PK - 2 The !lame wordinp I used for his that time. The snme word1np. let UR hone it iR more successful. A lot denends on the candidate, of course. You have to work with l••hat vou have. Mr. Sneaker. You have to work with what vou have. M~. SPPAKP.(ST.AGG): Order, please!

Havinp.: 1ust assu~ed the Chair and acquainted myself with the suh1ect matter that is supposed to be under discussion, I now ascertain that honourable members are all irrelevant or are "'neakinp.: irrelevantly ann T !'!Ur;p.:est that the ''ember for Hermita~e mip.:ht direct himself to the amendment. fdJ!. Sl'-1J,IC1NS: Thank you, Mr. Snea~er. Of course that little exchange we had with the Minister of Justice Rhould never he misinterpreted bv him. If RO, I !!hould have a nrivate conversation with him at some time on the suhject. I may neen him to p.:o to Seal Cove for me one of those days, Mr.

Sneaker, judginp by the favours he did me the last time he went to Seal ~ave. AN HflN. ~ -!JIFF: Jnaurlihle ." ()f course, he had the nrohlem of having the comnanv of the. ''inister of l'isheries at the time, and that ,~as a real orohlem. nr. Sneaker, to the !ln1'1ect at 1--and. I was asked to comment on the $5()(), 000. You since ruled that out of order, RO I shall not do that but I will looJ, to the fir!lt poRsfble onnortun-f.ty to tallc about it. Certai.nlv one nart of it that must certainlv he relevant, one nart of that $5()0,0()0, I heliP.ve it is relevant to the dehate, Mr.

Sneaker will hear me out and he can decide in a moment or t~ro, hut I helieve one part of it that iR certai.nlv relP.vant is the $14,1'1f1n or Sls,noo or $18,non or $20,rino we incurred in Herm1 tap.:e. '!'here il'I $1, nnn or a few hundred of that not p,'!.id, Ao that is in the $50o,nnn. To that extent I can talk ~hout $Sno,nnn becau!le certainlv that i.s an example that hears pretty closely on the need 4935

'fay 1, 1°74 Tane 14Sn (Afternoon) l''f( - 3 for nuhl:fc finar,c:ln,:,: of Plection elCTlem:e!S, 1'J,e Perl'litagP. h,-elect:lon T J,eJ:leve r,roved to all the r,eonle of Ne~ f:oundl1mrl, :l.t certa:lnlv proved to the '!'ory "Pertv, ''r. Sr,eater, that you cannot hu" votes anv more. You can try nrettv hard and vou can lavout l'lome nrettv b:I~ pr:lces for th.el'! but you cannot ruv th<?II', I-le c1.1r! !mend, the LfJ,erals had snent Sl~,nn0 nr $2n.n~n, was it? 'ffi. F. R.

"()WF: Yes. ----·----- 1'-fR. sri1MONS: Twenty thousand in the Hermitage by-election, money that 1,,ould have heen sub _1 ect to nroper controls if we had those nronP.r controls, but we did not have them at the time. ~ut J c1o hone that WP. have them hv the next ,:,:eneral election. Sir, 1-,here we snent the $7'l,nnn, of course, it is a well known fact that the P.r.. 's spent an unJimitec1 amount. I have heard guesses from the Leader of the Onposition which ar,nroach $Inn, nnn.

Pe ,-•as not :In the distr:1 .ct during the ,,,ho] e election as I was, so J had a hetter opportunity to see what ~,as going on there. ''Y guess annroaches cloi;er to $Hin, nnn to $18", nnn iinent h:v the 1'. C. 's in that election. I am not talkinr about an:v government aircraft that mipht have reen used, at nuhlic e:,q,ense or Tam not talking about the minhitP.r ,,,ho announced after the election on the rrd:lo anc1 on ''Onen LiTie Programme ' that - !Tiaud1hle. A reiinonsi.h] e caller. Yes, indeed he ~,ai; in Permitage for iieven or eight davs during the b:v-elect:lon.

The caller said, ''Well when are vou cominr; down to viiitt? •·ou were dO'l,m in Herm:I taite for seven or eight days.'' The minister said, '-Yes, that is true, I waA down there. But you know, it iA not lilre vou think, you may think I was down there in connection ,,'1th the hv-election." Of course, no •-rav, he was onlv down there e:l.ght dav!', }fr. Rneaker. I wonder how manv days that minister has Anent down there Aince the rv-election? A couple of weeks I sunpose, a Month or two no dourt. Thev are writinp; me thei,;e davA, Mr.

Rpeaker, asl,fnp; me -.,hat a cahinet mintster looks like; thev have not seen one since lirovember. Then again, I do not think they are narticularly anx:1.ous to 4936

M.sv 1. 1°74 Tane 14Sn (Afternoon) J·.now what on.e loo!,,<; lil<e. hut that is certa:1.nly another sub1ect. MR. 1mwr, F. R. ft.n awful sight! PK - 4 i'R. SP.'l'f(lNS: ''r. Sr,eah~r, it denenrls of course on •••hat nart of t!,P. 1>u1'lic the Member for r.reen Ray is talkin!? ahout. The constitutents in mv d:l.strict lcnow full well what I look like and thev are nretty hannv about what they see by the way. 'fr. Speaker, I listened with interest as the "Member for St. John's North sooke followinp the tremendous sneech. the real oration given by the MemhPr for St. John ' s Fast. The ~lemher for St.

John's North said that, and I really was disappointei at him for this, he said, that he agreed ~-ri.th the amendment. I am sorrv the government House Leader, he is p.oing to he the Oonos1 .tion Rouse I.eader nerhans, if thev do not get rid of him altogether. t.Jhat the r.overnment House Leader did in introducine; the amendment was to cut the ler.s comple .tely under the r--ember for St. John's North, take awav comnletelv from the affect of what uould have heen a nrettv good motion. We tried to amend it to make 1.t even better hut even without our amendment it was not a bad motion.

It at least called on the government to introduce some lei;?::1.slation to !!;Overn and. to control election exnenses. Then the 1'femher for St. John's t-•est comes in with a motion, an amendment, the r,et affect of which is to cut the le!';s completely under the Member for St. John ' s North hecaui:;e the motion as it will stand ,,rhen amend.ed will not mean a row of heans. It ~~11 mean noth:l .ng. It will just as!, the p.overnment to p.o hack in the hacl<room and th:lnl< about it, to consider it.

Thin!, about it and at some futurP time, there is no onus, there is no obligation in the amended motion, when amended. ~here is no ohlii,ation ,,,hatsopver excent to thtnl-. We have been waiting for two years, ~r. Sneaker, anrl we have not had verv much nroof that that crowd are thinkinp, yet. How Pill a motion l:lve this chanpe thin<>:s? Thev itre i>n1nP: t.o think ahout it, :If the motion should carry. If the amendment should carry, they are going to go back in the backrooms and do some thinl·.in~.

Jlop will thi> Jlou,;e vnoP thi> result of the thinking. floes 1 t mean at some ti.me, some time hence they ,ire p.oing to cor,<> in hPre with 4937

'·'ay l. 1074 Tapp 1450 (Afternoon) PY. - 5 t rP. r 1H,ults <>f th<>i.r t h1n\-i ,.,,.? Tt "ePl'\S tC' me from lis teninp to the ''emher for !it. John· s North that hp hns lwi h1" thin l·inr ctonP..

Ile h11<1 hfs homn••ot:J: clone and if Mi> colleavuP. had not n1tllccl the t:ul! from un<IPr hir.,, it <:Perns to mP from the raft of i1>formation that he r ead fro!!' tonay. alhr it reacl nerhnns for anothP.r re11son ,to cat:rv on 1>srt of the filibuste~ sho"i:: J-,m-· welJ thnt memhet: cAn nlav the oarty irame but hn,, it 1!' not ho;fnsr rec1nrocntecl in h111 favour. !low hP can nlav the ">Artv 2ame hut h1 c hu.dd1 P." over thPre wi 11 not "lav it Hf th him. .Just when hP ~ets 1tt> to c;irrv out t he old n,nty !'amt'\ of filibusterinl? , of talkinf" thiR onP out ,;o chat we c11n nevrr i:et on co the housfnp resolution introtluced hv t he "el'lhP.r for !it.

John'" Fouth, if he nlays the nartv R.ame of filibuster vi th t hllt, readin11 acl nausearn of •~hat ..,ent on in the <;tates so unsucceFFfuU v in terr1s of Jepislation. It f" t-JhilP h,. is nlav1n11 the 011rtv ,ame