Manitoba Hansard — 2 April 1962 (Sitting 50, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-50

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 50 8:00 p.m. Monday, April 2, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. s. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, April 2, 1962. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, before the adjournment we discussed the order of business for this evening and I think the Honourable Member for Gladstone indicated that he was not prepared to proceed at the present time. I don't know whether anyone else would wish to pro ceed on that resolution, or whether it would be right to proceed in the honourable member's absence. So perhaps it would be best .. . MR. CAMPBELL: ... Mr . Speaker, if anyone else wishes to speak on it. MR, EVANS: Thank you.

I wonder if we could ask if anyone else is prepared to speak .. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, as far as this particular group is concerned we would like to hear from the Honourable Member for Gladstone and then we might proceed. But be fore we do, Mr . Speaker, I notice that there's a considerable number of vacant seats. You are assured, Mr. Speaker, that we have a quorum here? MR. SPEAKER : . . . MR. PAULLEY: That's fine. MR. EVANS: There's a quorum present.· Then Mr.

S�aker, I wonder if you would be good enough to call the adjourned debate standing in the name of the Honourable the Attorney General and the debate standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I would like it to be understood at the very beginning that the prime reason for the number of vacant seats is not because the word got around that I would be speaking immediately: after 8:00 o'clock.

There is another reason in addition to that one, although that one may be pretty important too. MR. PAULLEY: What is the reason:? MR. CAMPBELL: There's a 'do' on in another part of the City -- a very select crowd I might mention. MR. PAULLEY: Well, I'd like to know, Mr. Speaker, if I may interject, what 'do' is more itnportant than the business of Manitoba? MR. CAMPBELL: I didn't suggest that the 'do' was more important than this one -- I just mentioned that the people who were present at the other function are a little more select than some of the people that are present at this one. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I agree that I am not select but I do attend to the business of Manitoba. MR. CAMPBELL: I think I could search the record, Mr. Speaker, and I could find a few times when my honourable friend has been absent to the great delight of all of us. Now, Mr. Speaker, with that introduction we can move along to the business at hand. I'm sorry that the Honourable the Attorney-General is not yet in his place because the few matters that I have to raise in connection with this resolution would be of interest to the Hon ourable the Attorney-General, if anybody in the House.

I might say, in the beginning, that I would not be speaking at the length that I shall -- and at that it won't be very long -- if I were a member of the committee to which this resolution is being referred. I notice that I am not a member of that committee but our Party is adequately represented thereon by the Honourable Member for Selkirk and the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains, and I shall have the opportunity of discussing with them the matters that appear to me to need further consideration in addition to those few that I shall mention this evening, and that v�ry briefly. I can say also, Mr.

Speaker, that I am heartily in favour of the approach that is being made to this resolution -- that is that it's first to have discussion here in the House and then be referred, along with the Appendix, to the appropriate Committee. I think that's the sound method of dealing with a matter so involved and complex as this one, and I can say that in spite of a couple of comments that I shall have to make, and some qualifications that I shall have to put forward, I still am quite in favour of the resolution being dealt with in this way.

Let me once again emphasize the point that I made on another resolution a few days ago, and that is that when we approach this question of the authority to amend the Constitution of Canada in our own country here, that it's well for us to remember that that right has never April 2nd, 1962 Page 1293

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) .••• been refused to us by the Mother Parliament. The reason that we're not able to do that as yet is because we in Canada haven't been able to agree on a method of amending it. If we were able to agree -- or when we are in agreement as to a method of amending it, it is as certain as anything in public life that the Mother Parliament will gladly and immediaiely give us the right so to do. And it always seems to me to be worthy of note, Mr.

Speaker, that some of the provinces which have continued to be at least doubtful about the suggested method of amending a constitution, and want many safeguards on many sections, must realize themselves that until there is such an agreement, that we're going to remain in the position that we are now and that is that the Parliament at Westminster will pass an amendment -- any amendment -- that is proposed to them on a joint address by the Parliament of Canada -- that is the Senate and the House of Commons.

So it seems to ine that those very prqvinces saying on the one hand that they are in favour of this being done and yet being rather dlff icult- if I may use that word -- about the method by which it should be done, and insisting that there be great rigidity in the method that's adopted, surely don't take into consideration the full im pact of the fact that in the meantime until that is done they are at the complete mercy of the Parliament of Canada, because the Parliament of Canada can get any amendment that it cares to suggest to the United Kingdom Parliament implemented.

So I think that's one matter that we should keep in our minds as we discuss this very complex draft bill that the Honourable the r Attorney-General has laid before us. Now the doubts that I am going to express have to deal with

Part I entirely as far as the draft bill is concerned, and to some extent one small suggestion with regard to the resolution- but I might say before coming to that that

Part II of the draft Act -- the one dealing With dele gation -- seems to me to be very well drawn indeed. ·I am not trained in the law and I don't know the intricacies of drafting, but to the extent that I have been able to consider this draft, it seems to me that those parts dealing with delegation are very good. In passing I might say that it's rather difficult for me to understand why there would be a considerable area of agree ment about the delegation of powers under 6, 10, 13, and 16 of

Section 92, and yet a disinclina tion to agree to a wider extension, because it seems to me that maybe 6, 10, 13 and 16 are equally important with the other clauses of that Section, if not perhaps the main ones. How ever, so far as delegation is concerned I think the job that has been done is very good. If I had any complaint at all about the resolution itself it would be in the second para graph of page 2 where it is stated: And

whereas in the opinion of this House it is in the public interest and in the interest of the citizens of Manitoba that the power to amend the Constitution of Canada should be domiciled in Canada." I would agree with that completely, Mr.

Speaker, but I would think that in agreeing to it we should have if not an expressed proviso at least a mental reservation that would say something like this� "Provided that the procedure guarantees the existing rights of racial and religious minorities and legitimate provincial clai.ms to auto nomy, along with" -- and then I would put -- along With that qualification, I would put the first one that the Attorney-General quoted former Premier Frost of Ontario as mentioning, and that would be that the formula arrived at should be elastic enough to meet the needs of a groWing and developing economy.

Now I am certainly not suggesting that an amendment should be put in at this time be cause I think that it's implicit in the minds of all of us that that proviso is made when we pass the resolution that we're dealing With and send it on with our endorsement to the Committee to deal with.

I mention those two things -- first, that we must ever keep in our minds that in doing this we must safeguard, we must be sure that there are safeguarded, the rights and privileges of the different racial and religious groups, the use of the English and French language and things of that kind: But iii doing that -- and I think everybody in this House is agreed with that -- in doing that, we must be sure to observe what Mr. Frost said at that time, that while we want to be absolutely rigid about that point, we don't want to make all of the procedure so rigid that it will be impossible to get a workable Act.

So I think there is complete agreement on the first part, and I am sure that those who have worked closely through the years in ,this connection will realize that there should be agreement on the second part and that is that it must be as Mr. Frost said, elastic enough that we can accommodate ourselves to the changing conditions and not hamstring the operation of it by making it so rigid that all along the line the veto of one province would make the Constitution unworkable. So far as Page 1294 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •...• those fundamental matters that we agree should be entrenched, yes of course, the agreement of everybody should be required there, but I can't see that the agreement should be necessary in a good many of the other spheres. Now apart from those two qualifications, I wish to mention only two matters. The first one would deal with that

section given as 5l(

a) and the second with 92 lO(c). And 92 lO(

c) is that

section that gives to the provinces of Canada the exclusive jurisdiction with what is called "local works and undertakings", then having given that exclusive jurisdiction it im mediately starts to mention exceptions, and among those exceptions are railways and lines of steamship and such things that are perfectly proper exceptions, I think. But having enumera ted (

a) and (

b) then it goes on to (

c) and uses that famous expression of "works for the general advantage of Canada." And while I have no complaint whatever about the actions that have been taken on more than one occasion by the federal government in declaring certain work to be works for the general advantage of Canada so that they could in effect pluck them out of the provincial sphere and deal with them in the federal sphere, I still think that the ones who are looking at the constitution that we're going to prepare for many years to come should look once again at that question to see if it shouldn't be safe-guarded _a little further than it now is, so that the federal government has to get more agreement than now is necessary in order to step in and usurp provincial autonomy to that extent.

One of the outstanding examples of where that authority has been used was -- I believe it was in connection with the Wheat Board Act where to get away from any difficulties about local trade or interprovincial or international trade, the federal government declared the elevator system to be works for the general advan tage of Canada.

I think that that has worked out well but the fact that I happen to agree with the particular instance in which it has occurred -- and there is more than one -- doesn't change the principle that I think there is an opening there where a federal government can or has the authority to step in and to some extent take away the authority of the province. Well I suggest only that that be looked at pretty carefully and that Manitoba's representatives give it what ever consideration they think it is worth when it comes to further consultations on this matter.

And the last point that I wish to mention is that one dealing with

section 5l(

a) which the Attorney-General mentioned the other day. And by the way, I'd like to compliment the Honour able the Attorney-General on having given what I think was a very complete review and a very fair and concise and informative statement on this involved subject when he spoke to us the other day. He mentioned to us that this

section 5l(

a) is the one that guarantees to a province that regardless of how the electoral representation figures may work out that a province's re presentation in the House of Commons will never fall below its number of senators.

Well now that might have looked to be not much of a guarantee in the old days but the fact is, I think - and I haven't had time to check this exactly -- but I believe the fact is that certainly with Prince Edward Island, I'm quite certain with respect to New Brunswick, and I would think likely with Nova Scotia that they are resting now because of the change in population, they are -resting now on the floor so far as House of Commons representation is concerned that is pro vided to them under

section 5l(a). They have ten representatives in the Senate in each of those provinces, and if it were not for that I'm sure that their representation in the House of Com mons would have already fallen below that figure. Now quite frankly, I just haven't had the time to check what their representation is but I believe that if they're not already resting on the floor, they very soon will be. In that connection, I want to say to the members of the House, Mr.

Speaker, and parti cularly to those who will be dealing with this committee, and then especially to the represen tatives of the government who will be carrying this matter forward into further discussions with the other provinces, that I think one of the things that should be looked at very carefully is this question of senate representation. Now please before anybody else gets up and says: "You're starting to preach for a call" let me say to you that I am interested in the matter in a purely impersonal sense.

I can foresee that if the big provinces, the two big central provinces and the two big western provinces of this country continue to grow at the rate that they are growing, vis a vis the other provinces of Canada, that it could be that within the not too dis tant future that Manitoba could be needing the same kind of protection. But even if they aren't the fact is that one of the unfairnesses of the present situation is that our representation in the Senate, our representation speaking for the region that is composed of the four western April 2nd, 1962 Page 1295 I J

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) .. .•• provinces, is very unfair compared to the representation of the four eastern provinces. I wanted to ask the Honourable the Attorney-General if this question had been raised at the recent conference --I forgot to do it the other day --but he can men tion that when he replies, because I raised it at the time before in the sessions that we had and I think that itls something that we should give careful consideration to. I'm not going to.hear debates on the merits or demerits of the Senate. Som.e will .think that I am showing an undue interest in them� That's not my purpose.

I hold the view that although the Senate perhaps needs reformation iii. one way cir another and. we're an.· aware :of the way the different parties reform it once they get into office, yet I .think that on occasions, on occasions, they have shown, and it's been good sport with a lot of people to rather make fun of the Senate, but I think they have on more than one occasion --I would suggest to you that last summer was one of the occasions --when they have shown that they have a vital function to perform.

And apart altogether from the fact that _Manitoba might some day be needing a floor oii -its representation, I think that it's quite unfair to .leave it in the position that it is now, becau:se here we are --I shan't take the time to weary you with exhaustive figures --but here we are with the Mari times, the four Maritime provinces, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince.Edward Island and Newfoundland, having well under two million in population --a m,illion, eight hundred thousand ) I think, something in that order --have six more senators-than the four western provinces which have close to five million in population.

They have six more senators than we have, and while there isn't the slightest likelihood, I would think on present trends of Alberta and B. C., ever needing protection so far as representation in the House of Commons is concerned, there might be great danger, particularly of Saskatchewan; and maybe even of Manitoba, being in that position. But in the meantime do you know which one of the provinces of Canada is the fastest growing?

The census --and I realize that these figures are preliminary as yet, they're not final --but based on the preliminary census of '61 and the quick computations that I've made, Alberta is the fastest growing province in Canada with just over 40% of an increase in the 10-year period. British Columbia is the second fastest with just under 40%; Ontario is the third fastest with 38% in round figures, and of course so far as numbers are concerned, much the highest of all.

Quebec has just over a_ 30% increase in that 10-year period, and the four Maritime provinces taken together compared to the four western ones have an over-all increase in population in,the last 10 years of approximately 17%,

whereas the four western provinces have an over-all increase of 30%, so the disparity is widening all the time. We're three times their population or close to three times now with the disparity getting wider all the time, and yet this region has six less senators than the east. The position of the Mari- times would have been considerably worse than it is at a 17% growth if it wasn't for the phe nomenalgrowth of Newfoundland --that is phenomenal as far as the Maritimes is concerned-- it had a 24% growth, much higher than any of the others.

Manitoba's got just under 20%; New 'J Brunswick 16%; Nova Scotia 15%; Saskatchewan just over 11% and Prince Edward Island 7%, ' according to my rough figures. The point that I am making is that there should be in the sense of fairness at the preS?ent time, let alone what might happen in the future, some effort made to see to it that the representation of the western region is brought into closer alignment than the others. I am never a great one to urge increases in legislative bodies; on the other hand I know how difficult it is to cut do'Wn representations once they've been established.

This isn't in any way at all a tirade against the Maritime Provinces. Two of them were members of the original confederation, and even at that time tJ;iey got special consideration --to which I am sure no one objected because only about half the population of Quebec at that time, each of them got --:I mean with the two of them together having only about half the population of Que- bec --each of them got half as many senators as Quebec did, but that was all right; that was definitely set up on a regional basis.

One region being Ontario, one region being Quebec, and the other region being the two Maritime Provinces. When Manitoba came in --it's true it's population was very small --less than 12, OOO --provision was made that it could get two senators and as time went on it got some more. But when Prince Edward Island came in, it got immediately four senators .• with the other two dropping back two each - from 12 to 10. But when Newfoundland came in, they got an additional 6, while the western region in the meantime that had been established and had, for the whole region, been established with 24 remained stationary.

Page 1296 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ..... Now I think there's something here that should be looked at because I recognize that the Honourable the Attorney-General when, both in the substance of his speech and when we asked him a couple of questions, was careful to, while paying tribute to the good spirit that prevailed at the conference -- he was careful to say that he wouldn't want to appear to be too sanguine about the agreement being reached quickly in this ma tter.

And having reread the honourable gentleman's speech, and having rechecked some of the representations that were made before, and looked over the recommendations that we made on other occasions, I would not be too op., timistic either -- and I don't feel too badly about that. I think we should say, as this resolu tion says, that we're in favour of this being done. I think that's correct. We're the only self governing one of the commonwealth nations that hasn't the right to amend our own constitution in our own country.

We're probably the only major self-governing country in the world tha t doesn't have tha:t, and from the standpoint of psychology, national pride and other considera tions, I think it should be done. But I don't think that in making the arrangements to get that done, that we should contemplate giving away any of the sound fundamental bases that we now possess just in order to get agreement in a method of having this constitution come back home to Canada. After all, Mr.

Speaker, the fact is that it works as at present -- it doesn't work just the way we like it to do -- but it will work because the government in the United Kingdom will do what the federal parliament asks it to do, and I think it would be better to stay that way for awhile yet, rather than agree to something that we do not entirely approve of. I don't like to read too much from our own submissions, but.I would like to close with two paragraphs· of the presentation that Manitoba made to the second of those conferences in 1950.

The Honourable the Attorney-General quoted two or three of the portions of the state ments from two or three of the addresses at the earlier 1950 conference.

At the later one held in Quebec City in September of that same year, Manitoba finished its formal brief with these two paragraphs which I would like to put on the record -- and while I'm 100% in agree ment with the Honourable the Attorney-General that we should press for the very best arrange ment that can be made, I would still commend for his attention and the committee's attention and the government's attention and our representative's attention, these two paragraphs -- and I'Iil quoting now from page 27 of the report of that second conference in 1950; "We, in Canada, should not lose sight of the strength which has come from this flexibility.

Neither should we lose sight of the frequency with which so-called inflexible and unchangeable consti tutions have been overthrown by the march of events in other countries. For this reason, we at this conference must take care that in our efforts to reach agreement, we do not agree upon something which is less desirable and less suitable to Canada than that which we already have. Certain proposals have been made which if carried out would produce such a degree of inflexi bility that, in our opinion, their acceptance would be a step toward a less desirable constitu tion. To be specific, we feel that if

section 92(13) -- and I might interpolate to say th at that is the Civil Property and Civil Rights

Section -- is as a whole placed in category number 5, which at that time was the entrenchment category -- the result will be such a degree of rigi dity that the interests of Canada would be better served if we were to agree to retain our present constitution and our present method of securing amendments. That method has at least the virtue that it can be used if Canadian opinion is sufficiently clear-cut. With all its shortcomings and delays it has made change possible.

I would not want to leave the impres sion that we in Manitoba feel that the present situation is satisfactory or that we are opposed to a change. On the contrary, we believe that a change is long past due, that at the earliest opportunity the people of Canada should take full control of the Canadian Constitution, of the procedure for amending it. In making changes to avoid our present problems, however, we must not introduce a rigidity which will create new and greater difficulties for the future." I close, Mr.

Speaker, by saying that nobody believes more firmly than this province has believed in the past, and I'm sure believes at the present time, thafwe should entrench those sections that deal with the fundamental rights, but that having entrenched them, that we should try and leave the draft constitution that we're going to submit to the Old Country with reasonable freedom and reasonable flexibility, so that it will be workable. And I must say that while I agree completely, so far as I have studied it, with

Part II of the draft act, that it seems to me that in the first part of the Act that the entrenchment clauses cover such a wide April 2nd, 1962 Page 1297

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ..... area that perhaps there is a little too much rigidity envisaged there at this time. Now, Mr . .Speaker, I'm very happy to support this resolution and I think that the proce dure suggested is an ideal one and when this matter goes .to the. Co .mmittee I'm sure that it will receive good_consideration and that the .administration will, from that Committee, gain.good advice to take back to the further sessions of this important ,confei:-ence . . '· · . MR. w. B. SCA RTH, Q. c. (River Heights): wm the Honci�rable Member from 'Lake- side permit one question? MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. MR.

SCARTH: The honourable.:'.tilember has suggested that. the last recital in the reso lution, reading as follows: ''And

whereas in the opinion of this House it is in the public int.erest, and in the interest of the citizens of Manitoba that the power to amend the Constitution of Canada should be domiCiled in Manitoba." Unquote. After that the honourable inember suggested that there should be further words perhaps to protect the rights of language and the provinces. Does not the Honourable Member for Lakeside consider that the diaft bill itself adequately protects those points which he brought out in his argument? MR. CAMPBELL: . Yes, I'm quite willing to agree with that,. Mr. Speaker.

I.think that they do protect those because one place where the entrenchment is very firmly established and with which I agree is on those fundamental rights. I was dealing only with the resolution itself, and if the resolution should at any time, by anyone who reads it, be divorced from the draft act itself, I think it would be well that we should all understand that in agreeing that this is desirable we agree that it's desirable only if those fundamental rights are protected, but I do agree that the diaft act protects them completely. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question. MR.

SCHREYER: Sir, I move, seconded by .the Honourable the Member for Elmwood, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you would call the Supply Motion. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to mov'e, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CHAIBMAN: Department 5, Education� Resolution 22, Administration . • .... MR. Mc.LEAN: Mr. Chairman, there were a couple of questions arising from our last discussion that I would like to just answer, if I may, at the time. .,1 The Honourable the Member for Fisher raised some question about student fees at the University of Manitoba.

I didn't just quite catch the full purport of his question but I want to report first of all he seemed to be under the impression that student fees were paying the largest part of the cost of operating the University of Manitoba. I can tell him from a state ment from the university that student fees account for slightly less than 25% of the total in come of the university and are -- for example, in the coming fiscal year of the university, they only estimate $2 million as their fees in total, and that's less than 25% of their total budget.

With regard to the fees themselves there are no increases being made for the coming year, the university year which begins in September of this year, with the exception of three cases. In the case of Architecture the fees are being increased by $10. 00 for the year -- that is , from $400. 00 to $410. 00. In the case of Interior Design the fees are being increased by $10. 00, from $300. 00 to $310. oo for the year. And this las.t one really bothers me a great deal, Mr. Chairman. It's the case of the Law fees, which are being increased from $225. 00 to $300. 00 for the year.

I think that's very unfair to a poor profession. The other matter I wanted to answer was, I gave some misinformation to the Committee. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party asked me if discussims had been held with professional groups with respect to graduates of the general course and I answered "No". Well I was wrong as I am happy to report, and I would like to give this information to the Page 1298 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) ....• committee. On August 15th, 1961 and January 3lst, 1962, senior officers of the Department of Education directly responsible for the development of the new general course held discussions with the President and senior officers of the Manitoba Regis tered Nurses Association with a view to encouraging the Association to accept graduates of the new general course for training as registered nurses. The officers received a cordial hearing and while no decision has been made, the matter is still under consideration and fur there discussions will be held.

On February 6th; 1962, a senior officer in the Department of Education di.rectly responsible for the development of the new general course met with the president and secretary of the Certified Public Accountants Association with a view to encour aging that.association to accept graduates of the new general course for training as Certified Public Accountants. The discussions were excellent and there was every indication of interest by the Certified Public Accountants Association in accepting graduates of the new general course as candidates, although no final decision has been made at the moment.

And on Feb ruary 12th, 1962, a senior officer in the Department of Education directly responsible for the development of the new general course met with the secretary of the Chartered Accountants Association with a view to encouraging that Association to accept graduates of the new general course for training as Chartered Accountants. The discussions were excellent and there was every indication of interest by the Chartered Accountants Association in accepting graduates of the new general course as candidates, although no final decision has been made at the moment. The discussions with all groups will continue.

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, we are still on the Minister's salary? Do you want to go ahead? MR. PAULLEY: .•...•• just on this point. MR. GRAY: Well, go ahead. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the fact that my honourable colleague from Inkster has allowed me the privilege of going ahead on this. I had hoped that over the weekend that I might be able to peruse all of the statutes of the Province of Manitoba in res- _ pect of the various professional groups, who have either in their regulations or in legislation, qualifications before they would accept stude�ts into their respective fields.

Now the Honour able the Minister has mentioned a few of them and apparently contrary of what he told me the other night that no general formal consultations have taken place with the respective organiza tions, he has now listed a number of the professional groups that have had some consultation with his department. He mentioned the nursing profession; he mentioned the chartered ac countants, and as I say, Mr. Chairman, I didn't have sufficient time to consider all of the various organizations and their statutes pertaining to them over the weekend, but I did look at a few of them.

I find that, for instance, I believe it was last session, this Legislature passed a bill setting up the Speech Therapy Association -- I don't thiil.k I've got quite the right name of it -- I think it was Hearing and Speech Therapy Assocfation. I also noticed over the week end in respect of legislation pertaining to physiotherapists. Now each of these organizations has as one of the qualifications, basic qualifications of interested individuals becoming mem bers of these associations, that they should have either junior matriculation or senior matri culation.

If memory serves me right insofar as the Hearing and Speech Therapy Association it must be the junior matriculation or the equivalent. If I remember correctly insofar as the physiotherapists are concerned it must be senior matriculation. Now as I said, Mr. Chairman, I frankly confess that I did not go through any further private bills or private acts in respect of these professions. The Minister has indicated in his remarks that consultations of some degree or other are taken in respect of the nurses and the chartered accountants, but I suggest to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, that this is not suf ficient.

My main point the other evening when I was speaking of consultation with the profes sional groups, was that students who contemplate taking the general course should be fully aware of the likelihood of them being graduates of the general course, being debarred from these other organizations.

The Minister has mentioned two or three; I now have mentioned at least two others that he has not made reference to, and I would like the Minister to list in accordance with the legislation that is on the statute books of the Province of Manitoba at the present time, all of those professions that have either in their acts or in their regulations qualifications -- either of junior matriculation or senior matriculation -- that is a requisite April 2nd, 1962 Page 1299

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) .... of students before they can enter these prof essions. Now I don't think my honourable friend has done this. And, Mr. Chairman, as I said the other night when we are changing our courses, when we are setting out or going to pursue this new course, this new general course, I think that it is only fair and proper that the students are fully aware of the limitations of the general course and the certificate that they will receive after they have completed the general course, the limitation that is going to be upon them in joining these pro fe'ssions.

I appreciate the fact that the Minister has made reference to· two or three, but I don't think, Mr. Chairman, this is sufficient. I think that the Minister and the Department of Education should fully inform all the students and all the parents that are going to make up their decision as to whether or not they're going to go into the general .course, as to how they may be debarred because of prov incial legislation which we as members of this Legislature have enacted. And again, as I say, I appreciate the fact of the Minister telling us here tonight that some consultation with a group or two .has taken p1a ce, .

I don't think that that is sufficient. For instance, Mr. Chairman, in my own home City of Transcona we have had a consi� derable number of girls, parti cularly graduate from Grade XIl in our local high school and gone into St. Boniface Hospital or to the other hosp itals to become registered nurses. We've had a number from my locality take up such things as X-ray Laboratory work. If memory serves me right, we have a few at the present time who are considering physiot herapy. We've had a number who, after graduation in Grade XII in our high schools in Transcona, have gone into the field of chartered accountancy.

But the point, and I think this is very, very valid, Mr. Chairman, the point is as far as I am concerned before we venture in, before we ask the students and their parents to accept the general course, they should be fully aware of the fields of human endeavour into which they cannot go. While, as I said, Mr . Chairman, I ap preciate the remarks of the Honourable the Minister of Education in respect of one of two of them, I suggest that it is not sufficient. Now we in Transcona have been selec ted as one of the areas in which this experiment in the general course is going to take place and I suggest to you, Mr.

Minister, that as of this date, the school authorities, the principals of the respective schools have not received this informa tion. I might say this, from what I can, ascertain in my own municipality, they're happy to co-operate with the. Department of Education; they're happy in the City of Transcona, just like I am, of considering progressive measures in education or anything else . But I do say, Mr.

Chairman, it's vitally important to those who are in Grade IX today in our schools in Transcona or anywhere el se, to know whe.ther or no if they take the general course they are going to be debarred from some of the prof essions due to the legislation that is on the books at the present time. If the Minister can tell me, and so far he hasn't, but if , Mr. Chairman, the Minister can tell me that I can quite safely as the rep resentative from the City of Transcona, the consti tuency of Radisson, if the Minister can say to me; Now look, Mr.

Rep resentative, I give you the assurance and the guarantee that if the students of your high school in Transcona or Wind sor Park, or St. Vital, passes the general course, then they will not be debarred from enter ing into any of the professions , other than those, of course, which require full university training, then I'm in a position to say to these students, "You go ahead.

It's true that the general course will not allow you to enter university, but once you've got your certificate of your training under the general course the prof essions which do not require that you be a graduate of university, then we'll accept you. " And I think, Mr. Chairman, this is only fair to the students who have to make up their minds now. I appreciate the fact that the govern ment has got the rights and the control over any legislation dealing with professional organi zations and prof essional fi elds. Again I say, however, Mr.

Chairman, that the students, · come September when they go back into school this year, have got to make up their minds as to whether they're going into a matriculation course or a general course, and I think again, in al l fairness that the Minister of Education should say to the school board of the City of Transcona and to any other school board cohcerned: "Will you please inform your students who contemplate taking the general course that on their graduation they will be prohibited from going into this field or the other fi eld" -- and I haven't heard that, Mr.

Chairman, from my friend the Minister of Education. If my honourable friend will stand up here tonight and say to me that the students who receive a certificate after completion of the general course Page 1300 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) . . . . • will be able to take up nursing; will be able to take up a course in physiotherapy; will be able to become a member of the Speech and Hearing Associ ati on; will be able to take up chartered accountancy, then that would sat isfy me completely.

I think these points and this information is very vital and I invite my friend the Mini ster of Education to say not to me, a representative of this constituency, but to say to the indivi duals who this year are going to make their choice, that when you complete your Grade XII in the general course insofar as these professions are concerned, it will be the equivalent of senior matriculation for the purposes of the Act. I suggest, Mr. Chair man, that that is an onus on my honourable friend the Minister of Education and we have not received that yet.

And now I. ask him now, whether or no he is in a position to say this , because this is very, very vital . We all know full well that many students are not going to go into university, but we also know this_; Mr. Chair man, that previously when they completed Grade XI they were awarded a certificate to show that they had passed junior matriculation, .that when they had completed Grade XII they had completed, in effect, senior matriculation.

But under the general course even though they do receive a certificate, it does not suggest equivalence with the certificate as I've mentioned for junior matriculation or senior matricul ation, and I sug gest particularly in communitie s such as I'm representing that this is very, very vital I would like to hear from the Minister assurance to these students who are going to take the general course, that on completion you have the equivalent for the purposes of nursing; for the .pur pose of physiotherapy; for the purpose of chartered accountancy , that your certificate in res pect of the general course is just as valid as though you had, in effect, had a certificate for junior matriculation or senior mat riculation and I invite the Mini ster to give me and this House, and through this House" the assurance to the students who are going to take

part in this experiment that they have that assurance. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, in the last -- for a long time sinc e I'm a member of this House, I have never heard such an interesting seminar , so to speak, and a discussion on edu cation. In the last few days I have enjoyed very much, I've got considerable knowledge of the Minister's several addr esses on the estimat es. I have also appreciated very much and en joyed the criticis m of the opposition. I still remember, Mr. Chair man, when teachers in the rural districts were paid $600 or $700 a year.

I still rememb er when teachers in Winnipeg had received from $900 to $1, OOO a year teaching school in dilapitated schools , most of them unsanita ry, having classes of 45 to 50 pupils which was physically impossible for a teacher re ceiving $900 or $1, OOO a year with certain responsi bilities of her own, perhaps to her parents , and give any individual attention to the children.

So I wish to commend very highly, the Minis ter of Education in his 1962 estimates to be able to report such a big prog ress in the last 20 years, in attendanc e, in new schools, in an improved curri culum, and has brought education where it should be, although perhaps not high enough as outlined by the opposition, which I have no intention of repeating a single word what they have sa id.

But as the heavy amm unition of the opposition has already been used out, hoping that they have no more to fire at the Minister, I take the liberty of suggesting one or two items for his considerati on, and I have no apology to do it because a man is hungry for something, whe ther he's a B. A. or whether he is a professional man, or whether one who had no opportunity, or very little, for education, and particularly the handicap I have of speaking other languages which prevents me from expressi ng myself, in my humble opinion, the most difficult language that I know of, namel y English .

I had in mind the new horizon idea which is being almost spectacularly followed in many Ameri can cities, that of the guidance and counselling of school children from Grade I to university and particularly from Grade IX and X. In other words prepare them for university or any other profession -- guide them for the future. Now boys and girls in Grade XI go to university automatic ally whether they are fit academically or not. They just join it, it's the style. If a girl has a B. A. hanging on the wall of her bedroom she has probably better chances to get married, but not to find out whether she's suitable for it.

She may be more suitable or the boy may be more suitable to be a plumber, an electrician, any other profession. Yes a profession -- that's the only one that could fight the economic battle in this race -- a profession. But to guide this child, to guide this school boy or girl as to -- personally almost -- what are the most suitable? This I think, unless the Minis ter tells me otherwise, does not exist in Manitoba -- a program of courses to train counsellors, April 2nd, 1962 Page 1301

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. ) .••.. Teachers College, Faculty of Education, to c11rry out a program prescribed at the present. There are. no opportunities in Manitoba as far as I know for this kind of training. Now schofarships, which have already been discussed here quite lengthy for needy stu...: dents are now, to a ce rtain degree, available at the junior high s.chool level. From reports I have read on the subject, and particuiarly recently of tli.� many. school!! under the "new hori zon" -- that's a name given, a new idea, a new way of life -- I think that scholarships should be available for lower grade s.

I could, if necessary, provide the Minister; and I am sure he has it, it would be an insult for me to provide to him of ma11y books on the subject and ideas which are operated in many schools in the United States. We have no director of guidance or counselling here. I've gathered all this literature from one of my daughters who is teaching in a school consisting of about 10 to 12 diff erent groups and nationalities coming fro m the poorest homes, and her duty is to investigate, train and look after each child individually, not as a group, not as a class.

She had to go four years to Columbia University, and then take a post graduate before she got this position, and she knows that I'm interes ted in education, because I'm hun gry for education. She is supplying me with all the literature, and it is very, very interesting reading. In other words, it's to try to bring up the child from childho od, from Grade I to pre vent them from becoming juvenile delinquents and give them an opportunity, a figh ting oppor tunity, to combat the economic battle, which I have already mentioned, when they grow up.

The development and expansion of proper guidance here on counselling program our children need this program. It's educational, vocational and personal guidance. In other words, I may repeat, to help these students to have a better understanding of how to plan their future accord ing to the capacity of the student to work. We must do everything possible to assure that the child stays in school longer and take up such subjects as ........• to his planned vocation. And someone has to plan for it and guide him accordingly. Scholarships are good, and necessary, but not enough.

I have many students coming to me, asking me to write letters for them recomm ending for scholarships. I most cases I don't write any letters, because fi rstly, I believe a letter of mine to the Departmait of Education will be a voice in the wilderness ...... . A MEMBER: Oh no. Oh no. MR. GRAY: And secondly, I do not want to interfere with the department because that's their job, and not mine .

I do write letters very often as to the need and character of the stu dent if I know them wel l. · A mother will be willing to deprive herself of a new dress in order to give the child proper education and a future -- particularly in. these days of automation. I know it from experience from many mothers , many parents. I also know it from the experience of my own children. We have tried to give them edueation. Now they don't come to daddy for 50� spending money a week, which I have given them in their younger days.

They're all trained, trained in their own spheres, academically and profe ssionally, and to me it's a plea sure and I wouldn't change it for millions of dollars -- but I'm not the only one, there are hun dreds of others too. Another thing that should be considered is this. In many homes the mother and the father leave home for work and they send the child to school.

The child stays in school till four o'clock, plays outside , when the mother and father comes home they're either tired to discuss school with them , or their education, or check what they have done today, or discuss their lessons with them -- many couldn't do it, and others haven't got the strength and the patience to do it. So the child is left entirely to bring them up, either a delinquent or an asset to the community, and a saving to the taxpayer, by the school, by the teacher of the school. Well how can the teacher give personal attention to 40 children, or 45 children in a school room ? It's impossible.

The teacher may be able to direct them academically, teach them arithmetic, teach them reading, and so on, but what do they know about hardship in the home? What do they know about the calibre and the character of the man? The parents sometimes don't know whether the child's at school or not. I noticed the other day passing by on William Avenue, the Victoria School, I s_awa boy of about 11 wading in running shoes in the slush on the street of the school. Did anybody notice it? Did anybody pay any attention to it? I don't know. Maybe there's a program for it -- if not, it should be done.

The majority of unemployed today Page 1302 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. Gray, cont'd .) .•.•• are men and women without proper education, labourers, and they cannot get a job in the present day of automation. They cannot. So what are they doing now? Getting Unemployment Jn.surance, or getting relief, or working for lesser money in order to bring a loaf of bread to the home. We are not doing anything in our curriculum now to en lighten the children outside of their academic studies.

There's no program such as organiza tion tours in different industrial establishments or take them out to a show collec tively, with the teacher, or get them out to an interesting industry, or take them out to the International Peace Garden. In other words, communally give them something more than the school arid the home and the street -- and God knows what they do in the street. Some of them may play game s, qthers may play something else. This new horizon program, Mr. Chairman, will probably enable us to find out why children are dropping out of school at lower grades, and we know it.

Your report shows that children are dropping out in Grade vm , IX, X. I don't think there are very many dropping out perhaps of X, but they're dropping out at vm . Either the parents need their help and they go and find a job as a mes senger -- what else can they do? Or they go to an office just as a clerk -- and then they can't do it very well because they haven't got the training, and nowa days they need the training a bit. All this may cost money. I realize it. But what is money for? Is anyone objecting to the billions of dollars spent on defence? It may be necessary -- I don't know. But the money's there.

I' m not arguing with the Defence Department spending billions of dollars. It may be protecting my life, the life of my children, the life of my family; but in the meantime the money's there when they need it. The educational budget 20 years ago was about $3 million or less. It's $34 million. Where did you get the money? Personal spending money's nothing. Money's printed; money's here. I haven't got it; you haven't got it; but the money's here. What's more important? Bringing up a boy or a girl to become an asset to the com munity and save the expense of gaols and penitentiaries and sickness and disease.

Is that more impor tant? Where did you get the $34 million now? Where did those in administration get $3 mil lion at that time? 1 still remember one of the aldermen during the unemployment relief, when we wanted to increase two loaves of bread for a family per day, per week, and one of the aldermen, the late alderman, says, "Where are we going to get the money ?" The City of Winnipeg had a budget of what? Ten million dollars. What's the budget today? Where did they get the money?

The parents are not complaining about where do they get the money, they want the service, and its in the interests of the state to give it to them. But while the children in the city are getting some advantage, what about the rural districts? Just the other day I came out with two clippings. I usually cut all clippings so they are pasted but a couple of them I didn't paste. It says: "Defence Estimates Zoom. This year it will be over a billion and a half. " And here's another clipping. The headline alone make us shiver. "Boys aged nine and eleven accused of vandalism. " And we see it every day.

And what are the magistrates doing? They can't help it, and they're instructed to do this . Put them in gaol -- or in Juvenile Court. Once a boy of 11, or 12, or 16 or 18 goes to gaol for seven days, he has a record that he was in gaol. When he applies for a position, and the question is : "Have you ever been convicted?" And he has to tell the truth -- yes -- and the job is gone. What's next? He goes back to gaol. There are many other problems. We shall probably discuss it under the estimates.

But my main idea tonight is to impress upon the Minister the need of a program of guidance and counselling -- in other words, let's follow the new idea adopted in many cities of Am erica that this slogan: "Let the new horizon, the new ideas, the new effort, if it takes 25 or 50 years, bring up a healthy, educated, self-supporting citizen." MR. SCARTH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say a few words, if I may, on this . I would like to suggest that our system of education in Manitoba is nothing like the "blue ruin" put forth by members across the way.

I was qnite interested in the speech the other evening from the Honourable the Member from Burrows -- who I see is absent from his seat -- and in him -- (Interjection) -- perhaps he's right -- and in him, Sir, I recognize a memb er of the teaching profession, who is able, highly regarded by other members of that profession, but I do not, and cannot, agree with him as to the deficiencies in our school system which he set forth the other night. I'll not go into detail, but I can see that during the last few years that April 2nd, 1962 Page 1303

(Mr. Scarth, cont'd. ) ..... Dr. Herbert Mcintosh was alive I, upon many occasi ons, had luncheon with him. We often discussed education and the method of teaching in the schools. I looked on Dr . Mcintosh as a very sound administrator and his view then was that we were developing the educational system in Manitoba on sound lines , on the soundest and most up-to date lines, net as depicted by those other members in any way. And then secondly, let us re gard Mr. Scott Bateman the Deputy Minister.

I happen to know the gentleman and nobody could sell me with the idea that he would not or that he would submit to any antiquated or fool ish method of teaching our students in our schools. He is much too smart a man and much too well versed to ever permit ,any such thing to take place.

If the Honourable Member for Burrows -- and I see he is returning to the Chamber - would take a look at our young graduates from various --from the university today in arts, , engineering, commerce and so forth, he would note that they're men of a much wider know ledge of the classics than we of two or three decades ago ever received; they have a higher power of expression and I thillk that they are better equipped to specialize in life.

Now, Sir, a university education by itself will not bring that out, there must in order for one to acquire a proper training in the university, he must have had his basis in the public schools and in the collegiate - -- without that the university course will not be successful, and yet I would suggest to all here that our graduates of today are equal to any o� any time in the history of our pro vince. There is one serious beef that I have, and I do not lay this at the door of the Minister of Education or the Department of Education.

I see the Minister is concurring with that sugges tion, but that is, Sir, in regard to the French language. We of Anglo-Saxon extraction, not only in this Chamber but elsewhere in Manitoba, cry for unity, we want a united province, we condemn those in Quebec who are on the secessi onist move. And exactly what are we Anglo-Saxons doing about it? Many of us believe that well speak my language or don't talk at all to me.

That is not the idea, Sir, and it is my belief that if we English speaking will learn to speak French -- and when I say speak French, I mean speak French -- but it has to be taken up in the lower grades in school. Now you cannot wait until a child or young person goes to university, with the average one at least, and then make him proficient in the French language. During the '201s I happened to have lived in the Village of Ste.

Rose du Lac which at that time was practically all French speaking, and during this time, when I was up in Dauphin one time I happened to be conversing With a young lady who is teaching in the Collegiate. Now for mem bers of the Chamber who have never heard of Dauphin, I would say that it is a town in Mani toba, 25 miles north and west of Ste. Rose du Lac, but -- (Interjection) -- this young lady who was teaching French in the Collegiate spoke her French with a decided English phonetical ac cent.

In other words she was teaching those children French but the only way she could pro nounce it was exactly as we English would speak it. Now that's how much chance those chil dren have, and the same thing prevails Sir, in a great number of our schools today. It is useless to say that the Minister can take a silk hat and a cane and go on the stage and produce 50 or 100 bilingual teachers overnight, but I do hope that before we•re much older, some system is found whereby we will get bilingual teachers in our schools .

If it is , necessary to spend money in that regard so that we, our childr en, will learn French, learn to speak it, then I believe that this, discordant note that exists between the French and English speaking will fast disappear, because after all if you can speak another man's language you can soon make friends with him. Now Sir, I am going to say a few words in French -- (Interjection) -- Now this is going to be a treat for you all, but I was just thinking that before doing this that there's two differ ences between the Honourable John Diefenbaker and me.

First of all he is Prime Minister of Canada and I am not. Secondly, my French is atrocious and his is different to that again. -- (Interjection) -- Well, we'll just leave it at that. But Mr. Chairman, I am not nervous about making a speech in French, and I'll tell you why. First of all those who are not bilin gual in this Chamber, will not understand one word I say; and secondly, those who are bilin gual will find themselves in the same boat. So here goes and I hope for the best: Monsieur le porteur de chais e.

Dans notre Canada ou deux langues co0'xistent, il y a n0'ammoins incomprehension entre les Canadiens de langue anglaise et leurs compatriotes de langue fran9aise. Page 1304 April 2nd, 1962 ,,,

(Mr. Scarth, cont'd.) .•... Reconnaissons que c•est en grande

partie notre faute a nous Canadiens d,•expression anglaise. J'ai vecu pendant plusieurs annees, il y a de cela quelque quarante ans, dans un village canadien, parmi une population de langue francaise. J'ai constate que ces gens, quoique reserves et timides, etaient tres affable, acc�rdant volontiers leur amitie, hospitaliers a l'extreme et rigoureusement honnEltes. Si vous faites seulement le tiers du chemin pour entrer en conversation avec eux, ils contribeuront les deux autres tiers et co-operont de bon coeur.

Hor.s, il existe actuellement, et cela depuis de nonbreuses annees, une insuffisance dans notre systeme d'education; nos ecoles publiques n'ont pas reussi a rendre nos �leves capables de s'exprimer et de converser en Franpais .

A mon humble avis, il y a peu d'avantage a charger un instituteur, ou institutrice, d'expression anglaise, ne parlant pas leu-meme couramment le Francais, d'apprendre a ses efoves a entendre et a converser dans cette langue. 11 enseigne les r�gles de la grammaire francaise, cela peut avoir son merite, mais n'obtient pas le resultat voulu. • Je voudrais que notre Departement d' Education fasse un effort sincere pour que nos enfants des les premiers grades, soient prepares a entendre et a parler le Francais . ,/ Si nous parvenons a enseigner reellement le Fran9ais, nos enfants y gagne'ront en meme temps demieux connaitre leur propre langue, l'An glais ; les malentendus entre les deux groupes se dissiperont, nous aurons une province plus unie et plus cultivee.

And I can· only say, Sir, that anyone who learns two languages, that is if an English child learns to speak French, he will also know his own language better. MR. PRE FONTAINE: Speaks in French -- will appear in later Hansard. Mr. Chairman, I was very pleased to hear a few words so well spoken in the beautiful French language by the honourable member who has just spoken.

He has expressed a wish, and I wholly agree with him, and I hope that he will use his influence with his Minister and his colleagues in order to see to it that it is not only permissible but that the government arid the department will take the lead and urge that the start in French should be at the first grade, rather than at the fourth grade. Some of the members do not know that there is still a prohibition in this province against the use of the French language until the boy and girl gets to Grade IV.

This is hard to under stand, it's contrary to the Manitoba Act which has stated clearly, explicit-.)', that the two languages should be used, and it's hard to understand in this day and age when there •s so many people who want more unity between the two nations who make Canada, that in this pro vince it is not permissible, it is not legal to use the French language until the children reach Grade IV. The Royal Commissi on has recommended that it should be at least permis sible to speak and learn the French language at the first grade.

I would not urge that it should be compul sory to have an hour of French at Grade I in all the schools of this province -- as the honourable member has stated we haven't got the teachers -- but it should at least be per missi ble where there are teachers that this language, an official language of Canada, should be used here in Manitoba or could be used in Manitoba, and it's not.

I would like to join with the honourable member in asking the Minister of Education to make it possible, at least in the French-speaking distric ts, that they could learn their own language -- no, I urge you -- pos sibly provide teachers in other parts of the province so that the other boys and girls would have the advantage, the great advantage in Canada to learn the second official language of Canada. Now I was not here when this debate on this question came up a few days ago.

I did not listen to the speeches made by the Honourable Member for Turtle-Mountain or the Honourable Member for Emerson or the Member for St. Boniface . I am sure the Member for St. Boni face brought a point and brought it well. I will not discuss it at this time myself. I might later, especially when the First Minister is present, but I would like to join at this time with the Honourable Member for Morden-Rhineland.

I will ignore for the time being the question of help to private schools , but I will touch the question of help for those areas that have de cided to vote "no" at the time of the referendum on the school divisions . If this was a vote at all, a free vote -- because a vote that is not free is not worthy to be entertained at all in the April 2nd, 1962 Page 1305

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd. ) •...• Province of Manitoba -- if it was a free vote I cannot see why the Minister continues withholding grants to these three proposed divisions. I say it speaks against me, the integrity I say, not only of the government but of this whole House, this thing that obtains 3 1/2 years after the vote was taken. Why should we carry on penaliz ing these people because they have expressed their opinion? I said 3 1/2 years ago when we were discussing this question of this vote, that the government should do some thing for those people who will vote "no ".

That's 3 1/2 years ago, and I said to the Minister at that time, if ten divisions or proposed divisions vote "no", what will happen? Will you help them ? The Minister did not answer. If 20 divisions, proposed divisions vote "no" , will the government not give them any assistan ce? No answer at that . · time. I repeat today, if 25 or 30 divisions had voted "noi•, would 'you not give them any help at the present time? I say we cannot have the two systems side by side indefinitely. Now it's going on because there are only three divisions .

They can't be ignored, politically speaking, still I wonder whether they will be ignored when the time comes for an election. I venture to express the opinion that som ething might be done at that time for these municipalities of Rhineland and Stanley and for the Boundary Division east of the river, because it isn't fair that these people should be penalized consis tently year after year as they are being penalized now. As a member of this House, I do not want to penalize anybody else. I am not going to oppose the votes -- and here I think of the private schools .

Eleven thousand children in this province are not getting a cent from $33 million. They have 300 teachers teaching to them and they aren't getting any help -- that' s discrim ination also. I should not have mentioned that possibly at this time. I'm thinking of these areas , they're getting only $2, 500 per teacher

whereas the others are getting about $4, OOO. 00. They expressed an opinion. I think some� thing should be done, possibly not the whole way, I don't know, but something should be done to give justice to these areas. I think it's a blot against the reputation of this government, and I hope something will be done. I am not interested politically myself. In my constituency they voted "yes" -- in the Red River imm ediately by a vote of five to one.

In Hanover, when they realized that they could have -- a year after the fact when they realized that the trustees would have the right to establish the schools that they wanted in Grande Pointe , Steinbach and Niverville , they voted "yes", and now they have high schools that they wanted to have and they're happy with them. But if the situation is different in the Emerson area, the Boundary area, these people should not be penalized indefinitely. They should be treated as equal citizens in the Province of Manitoba.

I say that the Minister invites the Honourable Member for Morden-Rhineland to help him to put the idea across, but if I know the honourable gentleman and I know people like him very well, he will not be a party to this kind of.an ultimatum -- you vote "yes" or else. That has been the stand of the government -- vote "yes" or 'else -- do or die. It's an ultima tum that the government has been placing before these people all the time.

I think there . should be a change on behalf of the government with respect -- and I afu speaking now only of these three proposed divisions - with respect to them, there should be a change. Something should be done and I think it behooves to every memb er of this House to see to it that some- thing is done and that these people' are not penalized any longer. · Now, Mr. Speaker, we have very many important things to discuss under this depart ment. The areas that we have; the divisions that we have, in many instances , are too wide - too large.

The Minister has been told time and time again, I suppose, before and after the face. We have them now, maybe we have to live with them , but this has cost money .. It's causing great difficulties at the present time. The principles laid down by the Royal Commis sion have been ignored to quite an extent and the Minister has a great responsibility to see .that they work properly, but his respons ibilities do not end with these districts that have voted "yes". He has a responsibility towards every boy and girl in the Province of Manitoba. Continued on next page. Page 1306 April 2nd, 1962 \ " \ \ \ \

MR . CHAIRMAN: Well I think perhaps we're hoping that we are making progress . May I just make this suggestion. If what we have to say will come under one of the suceeding items as set forth there, we'l l call them 2 and (a), (b), (c) , 3 and (a), (b), (c), and so.forth, that you reserve your speech until that time, in order that we can get something on the record and to make what seems to be more practical progress . Now if it doesn't come there, all right; but if it does, you're not losing any time by speaking at it when those items are called . May I ask for your co-operation in that, please?

Resolution No. 22-- MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairman, I don't intend to make a speech, nevertheless, I'd like to congratulate and thank the Honourable Member from River Heights for his kind words . I might say that it warms the heart to hear words like that from people of different nationality, I might say. I think that he's absolutely right. If there was a little more co-operation and un derstanding, I think that it would be a much better place to live .

I might say that people of the minority, such as I, would--with this kind of encouragement--would be maybe a little more pa tient; and would be maybe at times , you might call it more realistic; but in other words we'd be ready to play ball with people that think like that. I might--we're speaking about this , Mr. Chairman, because the Honourable Minister covered pretty well everything. There are certain questions that he was asked last time, and I wasn't in the House at all times, but I haven't no ticed any answers--and I am not referring to aid to private schools.

His conscience will dic tate to him what he should do on that, but there are points brought up by some of the previous speakers and I would like to just talk over this very briefly. In the question of teaching French in first grade which has been promised by the govern ment . It started at Grade IV, but it takes a little while to come into existence and now there's no doubt that there is a shortage of bilingual teachers , but this is one of the things that I sug gested last Thursday evening and I think that now is a good chance to bring it up again, to em phasize what I mean.

This is where this television station for education at the university would greatly help. There would be no handicap; there would be no problem if we had this television station that I mentioned a while ago that would be purely an educational station. We could have French lessons for Grade I and so on at certain times across the provi nce . It wouldn't be a French station--let•s get this straight right f:i;om the start--but this is one of the things that it would help. It would help an awful lot to repiace those bilingual teachers that we haven't got at this time .

I wonder if the Minister--he seemed to have covered all the other questions asked by the other members-- if I promise not to bring in this aid to private schools he might answer some of the other questions . I think I asked him something about this television station and some of them of course I understand were suggestions on my part, but then I also mentioned that I wanted more clarification on this sports-- inter-s chool sports and so on. And if the hon ourable member refers to Hansard, there was a few questions and I think he was taking notes at the time .

I wonder if it would be possible to get some of the answers . MR . J. P. TANCHAK (Emerson) : Mr . Chairman, I wish to thank my colleague the Hon ourable Iyiember from Carillon for putting a plea for the divisions, but I am not going to burden _, the Mini ster with that. I think I'll go on a lighter vein and this time, and I think it would be quite in order to congratulate the Minister and be kinder this time . It made me very happy to hear last week that the Minister indicated that in 1962 a course in the high schools, in Ukrainian, will be instituted on a trial basis .

I am sure that the Minis ter mentioned the City of Winnipeg--some school in the City of Winnipeg. I am very happy about that. While now we're discussing different languages, I thought it would be quite in order for me to say something here . We know that most of the Ukrainian people now living in Europe, living in the breadbasket of Europe as we call it, just north of the Black Sea--(interjection--the breadline--never mind what it is- -are being supressed.

Their language is being supressed by communism and I think it is quite in order for us in a free country to keep the spark of life, be cause who knows some day we may be very happy that we did it. The members will recall that two years ago I entered a plea in this House on behalf of the Ukrainian people who, I believe, are third in line as the greatest line in Manitoba in the ethnic group. At that time I suggested that a course in the high schools could be carried in the City of Winnipeg and also at another point somewhere out in the country, and I mentioned the town of Vita.

I had a good reason for mentioning that because outside of Winnipeg I think that's the cul tural centre of Ukrainian people--Vita. Now last summer I was also very pleased to hear the April 2nd, 1962 Page 1307

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) •.•. Premier announce at the unveiling of the statue of the great poet, Taras Shevchenko, on that day to a few thousand Ukrainian people here, he announced that the Ukrainian language probably of course would be tried in the City of Winnipeg and he .also men tioned Vita . I was very, very happy to hear that. Again, this summer, later on towards fall, at a great banquet in north Winnipeg in the Ukrainian Cathedral, again the Premier made the same statement. He also mentioned Winnipeg and Vita.

I wish to thank the Premier and I also wish to thank the Minister for their consideration in this matter, but I'm wondering why this time Vita was omitted. I think that if it's on a trial basis at the beginning, I think Vita should be included because it will give us a better picture--something to judge.by. The City of Winni peg is a large centre, but at the same time another point out in the rural area should be on the trial too. I would like the Minister to give an answer just--(interject1on)--that is in my con stituency and I have a perfect right to speak up for the constituency.

I think I would like the Minister to expl ain this matter, whether he will consider Vita at the future date, or is it being considered in 1962? MR . ROBERTS spoke briefly in French. Translation will appear in a later Hansard. I think the member from River Heights will recall, or perhaps he wasn •t in the House either in the spring of 1958 when the ·present First Minister of Manitoba was the Leader of the Oppos ition, the speech that the First Minister made then.

I don't know whether the Honourable Member for River Heights can understand the First Minister's French or not, but I have a transcript of the speech made by the First Minister at that time, speaking in French, and he called for the teaching of French in Grade I in Manitoba . He repeated this speech on the hust ings a number of times that I heard him, in 1958 before the election, and each time stated that it was his intention that, as rapidly as possible, he would institute the teaching of French in Grade I in Manitoba.

So I hope that as the Honourable Minister of Education garners more and more assistance, the First Minister, the Member from River Heights and many others, he will take this consideration seriously. I know he has a problem . Last year my wife and I decided that we should polish up our French a little bit and we entered an adult education class at the University of Manitoba on Con versational French. The first night we were in class, the teacher spoke entirely French be cause this was a senior class in French.

He spoke entirely in French and virtually everyone in the class understood everything the speaker was saying, except one lady . The teacher was going around the room with each of the students, the prospective students, and discussing cer tain things with them in French to try and find out how much French they could speak . When he came to this lady she couldn-'t answer his question. He asked, what did she do for a livi ng. She couldn't answer. He asked various other questions and she couldn •t answer them.

She said: "I don't understand." Finally he asked her ui English what she did for a living, and she said she taught French in the high school in Winnipeg-. I think if it wasn't so serious, this would be funny; but it's true. This is what she did. She taught Grade X French in Winnip eg. Since that time,-my wife has been supp orting me by-teaching French in the evenings-, tutoring French to students who are being taught French in Winnipeg high schools.

She has a waiting list of doz ens upon dozens of children who require extra tutoring--nights, week-ends and so forth--in or der to pass their examina tion, because they are being taught French by teachers who themselv es do not know the langua ge. Surely this is not an impossible situation, because we have a bi lingual province . W e have hundreds and hundreds of teachers teaching in Manitoba who are French by origin, French nationality, but who are teaching subjects other than French. Surely there. can be an answer found for this • I'd like to move on to a couple of other subjects, Mr.

Chairman, that I will mention brief ly, but I'll leave the subjects that will come up specifically later on until they come up in the items in the Estimates . The Member for St. John, speaking the other day, called for a Re search Council in Education. I believe he deserves a great deal of support in this request. I know that the Honourable Minister himself said that he believed that it was a good idea, but his objection to it was the cost.

Well I suggest a council would cost such a small percentage of the present $36, OOO, OOO that we are laying out this year in the Province of Manitoba, from the Gov ernment of Manitoba towards education, that it would be certainly well worthwhile to find out if we are sp ending these millions proper ly . If not a full-fledged Research Council, then I think it should be at least a standing committee studying our education problem s. I note in the Speech from the Throne, the Minister has introduce:d a subject here and he Page 13-08 April 2nd, 1962 ,_

(Mr. Roberts, cont'd.) •..• said: "You will be asked to give consideration to the reorganiza tion of the Educational Advisory Board so that increased emphasis may be placed on the prob lems of curriculum revision in the Province of Manitoba." I really don't know what this mea ns because I think the Minister could have presented to us by this time , if he has big ideas for this Advisory Board, just what they will be doing.

It goes on to say: "You will be asked to support the proposals of the government in respect to uniformity of curricular across the nation. 11 This we have had explained to us, but surely in the· field of a Standing Com mittee studying all the problem s of education ; studying the investment of this $36 , OOO, OOO into the future of our child ren; surely we can have a Board which will delve deeply into the problems concerning educa tion, which wil,l study curriculum; which will study the teacher training; which will study teaching pensions; a Standing Committee which will work on these things continuously.

We have had for some time in Manitoba now, one man in charge of curriculum, or at least responsible for that department. Surely it requires more work than this . Have we ever really established what we are training our children for? Do we in Manitoba know where we are going? Just because we are building new schools all over the province and because we are paying our teachers a great er sa lary, do we know that we are getting a better educ ation? We have a new program instituted in Manitoba, a General Course to be taught in the high scho ols of the province .

An individual was put in charge of studying this General Course; of studying the curriculum for it; of introducing it; of experimenting with it; and the result appears to be that this General Course; which was to be something less than the curriculum course, something more general in nature, less specific, appears to be a better course than the present curriculum corirse--Seni or Matric . Is this true? Is this General Course, because we put a little bit of effort into it, a better course than our Senior Matriculation Course ?

If this is true, why aren't we looking at all o(our courses and making them just as good, just as modern, just as up-to-date and advan ced as we pos sibly can ? I suggest that even if we do not have a Re search Council, even if we don't set up a Standing Committee, the one thing we must do above all, is make a complete and thorough curriculum study now, because now is the time it must be done ; now, when we still have huge numbers coming into our high schools and huge numbers who require further training. The Standing Commi ttee in Education of course could study, as I say, teacher training too.

It could study many, many things that we worry about, and come up with the answe rs . It could study what the entrance requirements should be for potential teachers going into our Tea chers' Colleges, and the length of time that they should spend studying before they teach.

It could study their curriculum--the teachers thems elves --what they study in teachers ' college; because here we place in the hands of these .individuals, these teachers, our children, and yet are we spending enough time worrying about what these teachers learn before they go out or are we spending great huge amounts of money building schools for them to teach in once they ''- get out? Have we course s, in our teachers' college, training our teachers to be guidance coun sellors?

Have we courses in our teachers ' college which will train our teachers to advise , to ,/ assist, to help that child to get the mo st out of his life? Have we courses in our teachers' coll ege which assist the teacher to determine a child's aptitude, to find out where that child should be going? Do we make the knowledge available to every teacher before he or she goes out to teach in Manitoba, -what courses are available in our universities; what courses are available in our vocational sch ools or technical schools ? Do we teach them what bursaries are available and scholarships are available?

Do we teach them all the things-- the teachers that is --that they must know to aid, to assist our children? In other words, do we give them the kind of training for aptitude and guidance training which they must do in order to be good teachers ? These are fields which we should be looking at too, because these are not fields that cost great am ounts of money. One school built in a little town of 300 people would more than cover the cost of providing this kind of a committee, of this kind of a Research Council for the whole of the Province of Manitoba.

Yes, and we should know, we in the Legisla ture here, and the tea chers of Manitoba should know what the role of each of the General and Senior Matriculation Course are . We should know, for instance, if a child wishes to go to Technical or Vocational School, which is the best course for the boy or girl to take . We should know, if they plan on studying agriculture, which course they should take. We should know if they plan on going to university or to teachers ' college or further on in any field, which course they should take . April 2nd, 1962 Page 1309

Page 1310 April 2nd, 1962 \ '

,/ (Mr . Roberts , cont'd. ) ...• Society themselves presented a plan to the government, which very closely followed the plan set out by the Royal Commission, and yet the Minister said to us on Friday that he can't see where we're going on teachers' pensions because nobody has offered him a solution to it yet . Surely there is room here for improvement, because each of us who have children in school have great concern that our teachers should become permanent tea chers, and our teachers should feel that they have security in their position, because with this security also comes the kind of teaching that we want, the stability in our force . I note in Saturday's paper, Mr . Chairman, an

article written by a Free Press reporter coverLrtg -- well it has quite a head!Lrte on it -- it says : "Low education level rapped", and the subheadin.g says: "The Province has only two supervisors to look after 139 rural schools •1 1 The first couple of paragraphs of this story say this, and I quote: "Several hundred .students in rural Manitoba schools are receiving a low-grade education because a branch in the Depart•1 ment of Education is under-staffed . Parents of children and the Manitoba Teachers ' Society have complained about the condition.

The trouble lies in the Official Trustees Branch where there are two men to look after 139 rural schools . No complaints have been made about the two men. There is just too much work for them to do. " Now thfil story carries on and has quite a reference to the vast amount of work that the se two official trust ees have to do in taking care of what it says here is 139 rural schools, and I presume that 's accurate . We have one particular case which was of interest to many people in this House , and that is the case of Grand Rapids School. There are some three or four hundred children in school there .

I think that this school requires very close attention from the Minister of Education . This is an experiment in integration and it would be such a pity if it failed. This Grand Rapids ' problem of having one-quarter of the students Indian children, local, and three hundred from people who have moved into work in the area. It is a problem that must be solved amicably because it's a problem that we, as Manitobans, would want to see solved.

Now the people in the area have asked for remedial classes for the Indian children to bring them up -- to bring any children who are behind on certain subjects -- to bring them in line with the rest of their class, and they have asked for kindergarten classes . As near as I can gather from this story in the Free Press, there seems to be so much work loaded on to the official trust ees, that this is one of them that they have not been able to take care of properly.

There are many other local districts in Manitoba run by a special trustee , and I think that there are many of them that could be taken over by local citizens . There are many of them who, if a little bit of help and a little bit of education and a little bit of assi stance and guidance was given by the Department of Education, there are many of them who have people in the community ooerated by these official truste es who could take over the operation of these schools .

And with the take-over by the local citizens, we have all the advantages, the advan tages of the acceptance of responsibility of local citizens towards their own schools . The par ents show more interest and support of the schools if they have some say in the running of it. Mr. Chairman, that is all I wish to say at the present time. As I said, I will introduce the other topics I had on the items as they come up in the Es timates. But I would like to em phaisze my original point, and that is that we require a standing committ ee .

We require a re search council, a standing committee, or an advisory board -- call it what you like -- but we require a permanent body of trained educationists who will study the problems concerning our education in Manitoba. We will not keep on moving in the direction that we have been moving, that is spending more and more money each year and teaching the same subjects in the same manner, that we will move ahead in the fields of curriculum; that we will move ahead in the fields of teacher training; we will move ahead in the fields of new courses .

These are the things that cost only a portion, only a small portion of the costs of the actual bricks and mor tar that we seem so gay about spending -- and building. Surely there is more importance to be attached to the course that is taught and to the manner in which it is taught, than is attach ed to the schools in which it is taught . MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher) : Mr . Chairman, I have a few questions not answered the other day, but listening tonight to the sound language of French, maybe I should treat you gentlemen to Ukrainian -- (interje ction) -- No, I' ll skip it.

I was asking when I was speaking, whether the Minister would tell me if the sidewalks that was supposed to be built in Fisher Branch School under the new construction, whether it's going to be covered by 75% construction April 2nd, 1962 Page 1311"

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd .) •••. grants the same as the school? Then there was another question ' I was asking -- why the student is denied the exam papers when he is writing the supps during the su mm er? And the third question: how long is the bus contract now ? Is it one year, two years or three years, or annually? MR. CHAIRMAN : Any further questions ? MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I had better answer a number of these . The bus contracts are a ma tter entirely up to the School Division Board . They can make any length of contract that they wish.

Students are not given their examination papers because obviously that would simply start an argument between the students and the High School Examination Board as to whether it has been properly ma rked. There are several thousands of these pap ers and it would be completely impos sible to have any arrangement of that sort. There are ample opportunities for re-reading or appeals and it has never been a practice to give the pa pers back to the students . The sidewalk can be included in the cost of building the school, and up to the limit that is placed for grant purposes, participates in the grant.

That is , it is con sidered as part of the construction cost of the school if the school division wishes to construct a sidewalk, provided that it's within the total amount that is alotted for the school . For my part, I quite frankly don't think it's too important a matter, but if the school division wishes to include it, they may do so .

I think that the Honourable Member for La Verendrye must have been out of the House when the Bill for the establishment of the Advisory Board received second reading and when "-, we had a fairly complete explanation, I hope, of the purposes that it would serve; and I think that it would do some of the things, not all of course, that he has indicated. If he has any dis- tricts now under the official trustee that ·would like to go back and have their local board, if he will inform me of tlie names of the districts, I can give him my assurance that we won't waste very long getting them back.

As far as the Free Press report is concerned, Mr . Chairman, it was misleading, inaccurate and untrue. He asked if we were training teachers to be guidance counsellors . I wouldn't say that we're training them to be guidance counsellors but they are receiving training in guidance or counselling at the Manitoba Teachers ' College •. On this whole matter may I just say this, that you know when I was brought up, we kind of thought that Mother and Dad had some responsibil ities in the matter of guidance and als o, so far as the schools were concerned, our teachers were our guidance counsellors in many respects .

I had the great good fortune to have as the principal of high school, when I went to high school, Mr . Gordon Churchill. Along with teach ing and being principal, he was the counsellor to -- (Interjection) -- well no, that didn't really happen. I had different views in those times . -- (interjection) -- Yes, I think probably he did, but it shows that both of us came along and improved together but he was our counsellor. He was the chap that the boys in the school would talk to . He would help us . He worked with us in our church groups and other things of that sort.

There were teachers who did the same ). thing insofar as the girls in the school were concerned. Now what I am trying to say, Mr . Chairman, is that I think we musn't distort the guid- \, ance and counselling out of its true proportion. Now I know that it's become more common in this day to make a sort of separate category for guidance counsellors, and indeed there are many schools who have men and women who act as guidance counsellors . That's their work in the school . I wouldn't be at all sur prised but what one of them isn't in the gallery tonight.

A young lady was telling me the other day that part of her work was that of guidance counsellor at one of the large high schools in the City of Winnipeg, and they have them in many places .

It's som ething that is worthwhile, it's good; but i: think that we mustn't forget the importance of the teacher, because after all children respect the teacher -- whatever we may think of it, they do in fact in mo st cases respect the teacher -- and the teacher that has the close associa- tion with the student through the teaching process is really the one best able, as far as the school is concerned, to give guidance and counsel; and, of course, there is the home and many other agencies that we speak of.

The question asked by the Honourable the Member for Emerso n about Ukrainian, I think he must have misunderstood me because I didn't mention Winnipeg when I was speaking of it. I said that we .had issued invitations to all the school divisions in Manitoba asking if they were interested in having a class in Ukrainian. That invitation of course went to Winnipeg, but it Page 1312 April 2nd, 1962

' J (Mr . McLean, cont'd.) •••• also went to every other school division and also to the School Dis trict of Vita. I must say that I was always under the impression that the centre of Ukrainian culture in Manitoba was up near where I live, but if it's Vita, that's fine. He may rest assur ed that Vita has received the letter . We have not received any reply from them but that'll come, I'm sure , in short order. The Honourable the Member for st.

Boniface -- inter-s chool sports -- I'm not too able to tell him too much other than there's a great deal of inter-school and inter-s chool division sporting activity going on at the present time .

There has been recently organized, and we were pleased to have them have their meeting at the Teachers ' College and to supply them with one of their meals, a group of the physical education people and trustees and other teachers, interested teachers , and they formed an inter-sch olastic committee who will sort of lay down the rules for the contests and the games that will go on as between the schools and the school divisions, and try and keep it on a good sound basis and under some careful supervision . That group is going to have its second meeting during the Easter recess and lay further plans .

NO\v really that's all I can say. They will have in hand such things as hockey, baseball, curl ing, track and field for the track and field meets and so on; and, as I understand it, it is their hope to arrange it in groups or sort of have areas or sections of the province that will be op erated as units within that general whole program. With regard to television, it would cost, I understand, from one-third to 1/2 million dollars just to establish a small television station, not to mention what it would cost to run it .

He's pe rfectly correct that of course one could teach French or any other subject for that mat ter by such a means . I am one who believes that in one form or another -- and one doesn't know re ally how it would develop -- in one form or another, I expect that a great deal of our teaching will be done by television in the not-too-distant future. To me, it's a rather horrify ing prospect, but I think we must admit that automation, including television, is going to take over in large measure the work that is now done by classroom teachers .

His suggestion is good; it's an expensive one; it would do this sort of thing that he has in mind . I think it would do the sort of thing that he has in mind, but I'm not in a position to say that we 're going to do it because simply we don't have the funds at the moment in order to provide it. Also, I'm not too sure that if we were going to do so that we would establish it at the university. We might establish it at the Institute of Technology. If that's going to be as bad a place as some fellows say, there wo:i't be much else going on there and they'll have time to put on television prog rams .

It might be there or it might be part of the department. It's a sound idea. Television has a future insofar as teaching process is concerned. With regard to the giving of division grants to non-divis ion school districts , we've been through this discussion many, many times . There are several aspects of it and I mustn't take the time to discuss it all. I just simply say this : first of all, the members say they're being penalized.

That is not of course the case because, as I have tried to explain so many times, these school districts or the people in the non-division parts of the province have not accepted the financial or other responsibility that is associated with the formation of a school division, therefore, they don't have to pay the costs that are associated with that type of education. We said that the diirision grants would only be paid to school divisions , and I suppose we have some obligation to honour our word to those who accepted the formation of school divisions .

I don't know that one can put the matter on any different basis than that. May I just remind the Member for Carillon that his own administration did this sort of thing for years and years and years. One school area in Manitoba received extra grants and every other school district in the province didn't receive it, but nobody thought that was out of the way. The same was true, although for a shorter period of time, for secondary school areas .

They received extra grants; nobody thought anything about it; and in both cases -- in both cases there were places in Manitoba where they voted on a school area or a secondary school area and defeated it, and nobody even mentioned that they should get the higher grants because they had exercized their democratic right to turn it down. It seems so unnecessary to me, Mr . Chairman, to keep go ing over this same territory all the time . Now the Honourable Member for Radisson and I have -- obviously we're both talking about several different things all at the same time .

He asked me the other day if we had con ducted any negotiations 'with professional associations. Now that was the question he asked me. April 2nd, 1962 Page 1313

(Mr. McLean, cont' d.) • , •• I made a fnistake and said we hadn't.· I found in the interval, on consulting the research staff, that we had, and I reported to him tonight that we had conducted such negotiations. Now that's a very simple straightforward thing. He asked me if we had con- · . . ducted negotiations witb. them. . I now report what negotiations we have. conducted, But then .he .. switches it over to the fact that there will be students taking the general.course, graduating from the general course, who will not be able to enter certain work because these things require matriculation. Well, Mr.

Chairman, that's perfectly true, and that has been true for a long time. No change there. So if a student, as matters stand at the moment, if a girl wishes to enter nursing she must take matriculation. That's the same as it is now, was last year, any ·o ther time,. because th!lre have been choices between .matriculation and tlie vocational courses. · If you took a vocational course you couldn't go into nursing and so on. Now the question -- I can't and won't give him the assurance that graduates of the general course will be able to enter nursing because, as matters stand, at the moment, ' they Will not.

The matriculation is a requirement for nursing as it is for the others which he mentioned, and that matter is quite cfoar and distinct, As to informing the students about the fact that they must have matriculation if they're thinking of goihg to university, ente:r:ing nursing, entering Chartered Accountancy, of course that's always been done. That's the job of the school; that's the job of the counsellors that they have.

That sort of thing is goin:g on all the time and, of course, will be done very distinctly with the people who are interested in the possibility of en tering this General Course for the first time. If we ever get out of this House, Mr. Chairman, I have some plans that I hope we'll be able to carry out, but I've got to get tbi-ough these esti mates first. We've got some plans and we'll get them under way. That's the situation. Now I don't particularly hold to the view that these groups should have the right to deter mine their entrance requirements, the ones mentioned and others.

In fact, some of my coll eagues on this side might be able to tell of some views that I have on that subject, but the fact is the laws are there; they've been passed by this Legislature; and I don't think there's any pros pect that every act is going to be changed at this Session of the Legislature, so that's the situa tion. But let us not forget, just let's keep one thing in mind. The first students in the new General Course, if we ever get it started, are only going to start in September this year, 1962, in Grade X.

We haven't got any graduates to worry about yet and we've got a certain amount of time to work on this and to perhaps have some change by the time there are graduates.

Remem ber also that there are very careful plans made for transfer by the students from the General Course to Matriculation if, at any point, in !lfier X or after XI or even in Grade XII, if the stu dent decides that he or slie wishes to have a matriculation standing instead of a General Course standing, There is careful provision made for transferring so that no student will suffer as the result of having made one decision at one point, and a desire to change that decision at some point before he or she is ready to enter further training or work or whatever the case might be.

I think that we really don't need to be worrying too much, if I might suggest this about this at the moment. We're cognizant of the problem; we've taken as many precautions as we can; we must deal of course with the statute Law as it is; and we will do so. I do appeal, however, to the Committee, and I hope I made this point the other day, that this is a very delicate time that we're in with regard to the new General Course.

I hope that what we say here, through perhaps our anxiety and I understand that, will not serve to give this whole business a bad start because it's a good course; it's been well prepared and designed; and I'm satisfied it's going to do a good ]ob, but we need a good measure of public support to get it under way. I think, Mr. Chairman, that those are most of the points that have been rais ed, other than that I can't contribute any French to the proceedings . · MR. GRAY: Is it possible for the Minister to spend a minute to my suggestion? MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not personally familiar with the New Horizon Prog ram to which the Honourable Memberfor Inkster has made reference . I think there is a real field for guidance and counselling, and naturally all of us would subscribe to anything which will. prevent juvenile delinquency and will help students to get the best out of school and make them selves suitable citizens. I did express the opinion a few moments ago that of course I feel that there is a real, per haps the primary responsibility for this is in the home.

There are many other agencies such as the church and othe.r similar agencies where good work of this kind should be done . There is Page 1314 April 2nd, 1962 " '

(Mr. McLean, con t'd.) .••• an extension of guidance counselling in our schools . This is par ticularly true in the high schools and not confined to Winnipeg by any means, but it's done in Brandon, Dauphin and many places where guidance counse lling is done. We don't have in Mani toba any place where guidance counselling by itself is taught, although students in our teacher training institutions receive instruction in guiqance counselling, but only as part of their over all course . There's no place where a person just simply trains to be a guidance counsellor - that is no place in Manitoba.

I don't know just that -- as I say, it's one of these things that I agree, yes, that there should be guidance and counselling and there is . We don't do it in Mani toba on quite the elaborate sc ale that they do it in some of the American cities and the American states. That doesn't say that what they're doing is wrong and what we're doing is right or any thing of the sort, but it is a fact that we don't do it on quite as large a sca le as they do, I think perhaps that would be my observations on it.

As I say, I like the idea that the real guidance comes from the home, although I recognize that probably there are cases where that is not al ways done or that's not even possible. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for his reply in respect of those item s dealing with the General Course that I brought up . I want to assure him also, Mr .

Chairman, I think that now we have considered his salary for a considerable number of hours, so far as I'm concerned personally and I think as far as my group is concerned, that we're pre pared to allow him the am ount of money neces sary to feed his flock for the next year . I want to tell him this, however, and I appreciate very much that just as soon as his departmental esti mates are finished that he is going to take steps to make sure that the students who may be tak ing the General.

Course are informed of the restrictions that they may be confronted with inso far as going into the professions will be revealed to them . I think that this is a proper step and has been, to some degree at least, the purpose for me raising this question in this House .

I don't want him to be critical of me, however, because I have the opportunity or the privilege of making a weekly report to the local newspaper in the City of Transcona, and in this week's report to that paper, I have suggested to the students who are considering taking the General Course that they should clear with their counsellor or their principal as to whether or not they might be acceptable into some of the professions that they might want to go in. I have done this, Mr . Chairman, because I think that it is the fair thing to do.

The Minister has assured me this evening that as soon as his departmental estimates are finished and his salary has been assured, that he is going to get those upstairs from us here to join with him and bring this information to the students concerned . I appreciate that very much. Now then -- (interjection) -- Yes , I'll have already let them know. Insofar as my own municipality is concerned, Mr . Chairman, that's perfectly correct . I don't know, however, whether the Honourable Member for Lakeside has taken sufficient interest in his own particular constituency to do as I have done in the City of Transcona.

I'm happy, however, that notwithstanding whether or no that the Honourable Member for Lakeside has done this, that the Minister of Education is going to do it. I do just raise this one question to him though. He does say that students can, after a year or so in the General Course, pick up where they left off and go into matriculation. I am sure that he will agree with me though that this may raise some difficulty because of the language that is neces sary in matriculation which isn't a compulsory subject in the General Course . With that, Mr . Chairman, I appreciate the remarks of the Honourable Minister.

As far as I'm concerned, and I think speaking for my group, we're prepared to pass his salary and to get on to the items in his department. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, now that the Member for River Heights is back in the House , I simply have to say ;i. few words in French to the honourable gentleman. After all, he did mention my home village in the oration that he gave us, and I congratulate him for his use of French . I'd like to just say to him that obviously the training that he got there some 40 years ago has stood him in good stead, he remembers well. Mr . Molgat spoke briefly in French.

Translation will· appear in a later Hansard. I would like to make one comment in this matter of teaching languages , Mr . Chairman, for the Minister. It seems to me that entirely too much of the emphasis in the teaching of lang uages in our sch ools and at the university has been on the Grammar end and entirely too little on the conversation end. This, I would suggest, is a field that should be very carefully consid ered . I appreciate the desire of educators to have people speaking correctly the other April 2nd, 1962 Page 1315

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) •••• language or languages that they learn, but unless we can get to the point where enough of our people can speak it, even if they speak it incorrectly, I think we are going to have great difficulties with achieving bilingualism in our nation. I strongly recommend a very close study of this matter. I think I can speak in this regard from some personal exper ience, having arrived at school with only one language and having had to learn English in school subsequently. I feel that this is one field we must look into very carefully. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 22 -- passe d? MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I understood that you were going to call these

section by section. MR . CHAIRMAN : No, when we get into the Items, (a), (

b) and (c) . Resolution 22 - passed? MR .. CAMPBEL L: Mr. Chairman, if you pass Resolution 22, you're passing all of those items. MR . CHAIRMAN : Well we usually do with the supplies and so forth, but I meant where · we come to some items like school grants, general grants, and University of Ma nitoba. We'll take those separately. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr . Chairman, I hope that you don't think that we're going to pass the item of Teachers' Retirement without some discussion on it, because if you do, I'll tell you now that you are going to be very disappointed. Can we take them (a), (b), (c), Mr. Chairman? MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 22 -- passe d? -- MR. McLEAN: Mr . Chairman, it's bringing the whole matter to -- just a conclusion if I spoke about teachers' pensions. There are three aspects of this, Mr . Chairman. This matter divides into three parts . The first has to do with the forfeiture provisions of the present Act under which, if a person is teaching and leaves teaching, they forfeit their contributions to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund unless they have taught more than 30 months or, in effect, three years.

If their period of teaching service is anything, 29 months, 20 months, 10 months, they forfeit whatever contributions they have made . That is one of the problems. At least, that's one of the parts of this matter of the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund. May I just express an entirely gratuitous comment, .that thos e who have said that that was illegal don't know what they're talking about because, of course, this Legislature passes laws and that settles the law . But that's one. The second part of the problem is the problem respecting those who are now on pension and in receipt of retirement allowances.

The third part of the problem is those who are not on pension but may be on pension at some time in the future. Now it is true that the Royal Commission made some recommendations about Teachers' Retirement Allowances. The Teachers 1 Society have indicated to me that they don't entirely agree with those recommendations and have br ought in a proposal -- not two years ago, it's about a year and a few months ago -- respecting this,- which is somewhat different from the proposals, or the recommendations of the Royal Commission.

I might perhaps say that this whole subject is a very complicated one, and it especially becomes complicated if you endeav our to relate it in any way to the retirement allowances paid to civil servants, as the teachers have requested. That is to say, they have asked that their plan be made in some way or other comparable to the civil servants' plan. If you start trying to compare them now, or in the fu ture, it becomes pretty complicated. Well, Mr. Chairman, all I have to say tonight is this.

With regard to the first and sec ond parts of the problem, that is, the forfeiture provision and the problem of those on pension now, there will be legislation introduced at this Session of the Legislature, and I can say no more about it at this present time. We will have an opportunity of discussing it when the Bill is before the House . With regard to the future, I would like to make this statement. We propose to introduce legislation in 1963 to establish a revised teachers' pension plan.

A committee will be establish ed immediately following the close of the Legislature consisting of school trustees, teachers, government and Departme n t of Education representatives, together with necessary technical personnel to do the preparatory work for the legislation required for the proposed revised plan. In planning for the revised pension plan, careful consideration will be given to the principles suggested and requested by the Manitoba Teachers' Society. That is the end of the statement insofar as what is proposed for the future. Page 1316 April 2nd, 1962

(Mr. McLean, cont' d.) •••• With respect to the item in the estimates, this item is not affected by the legislation which will be introduced within a few days and, of course, is not affected by the proposals with regard to 1963 . MR. ORUKOW: Mr . Chairman, I want to say that this is a question which has not come up suddenly in this Legislature nor did it come up suddenly for the government. The govern ment has been aware of this problem practically since the day it came into office, because the Royal Commission dealt with this matter extensively.

I want to say that as far as I'm concern ed, the fact that the Minister comes here some six weeks after the House met and tells us that we will h!!,ve legislation without telling us what the legislation will be or without telling us what the basic principles will be, as far as I'm concerned is no reason for members -- and not just members on this side because I think members on that side have just as much responsibility for seeing that we treat employees of ours, whether they be teachers or other civil servants , equitably, as we have.

To suggest and even imply that we can leave this matter with the short two-minute statement which the Minister made, is of course completely unacceptable . I don't know, Mr . Chairman, and I must admit that I'm not competent to deal with mat ters of high finance and matters which are as complicated in detail as pensions .

I'm certainly not any more competent than any other member of this House, and maybe I'm less competent than some or many, but I can see no essential difference in principle, not the slightest, not the least difference in principle between the moral -- I'm not now talking about the legal res ponsibilities -- but between the moral responsibility of this Provincial Government, of this Provincial Legislature, providing an adequate pension for the teachers than we have the moral responsibility for providing for an adequate pension for all the other civil servants.

There is absolutely no difference between the teachers of this province and the other civil servants . And so for the Minister to say that it becomes complicated, in my opinion, is merely an ex cuse for further delay and further inaction. MR. McLEAN: It's also a statement of fact . MR. ORLIKOW: Well the Minister says it's a fact. I say it isn't a fact. I think if we examine what the practices are, we will see that it is not a fact. The fact is that teachers' pensions in this province -- the Teachers' Pension plan is one of the worst plans in Canada, if not the worst .

Manitoba is the only province in Canada where school districts are required to pay into teachers 1 pension funds . Well, Mr . Chairman, the other day the Minister quoted very approvingly, when he was discussi ng the question of the General Course, he quoted very approvingly from articles which appeared in the Winnipeg Tribune.

I tell the Minister now that that statement was made by the same reporter in the Winnipeg Tribune dealing with the question of teachers' pensions . -- (in terjection) -- Well, I think if the Minister denies it tonight, that I will take the time to get by tomorrow night or by Wednesday, the facts, and I think that the facts will prove that what I say tonight and what was said in the Tribune is correct.

I bring this to the attention of the Minis ter and I will bring this to the attention of the Honourable Member for Rhineland, that he ought to get in line with the Social Credit Government of British Columbia and Alberta because I fancy they think it is proper for their Provincial Governments to handle pensions for_ their tea chers and I thLTJk we can do the same. Last year the Minister promised a definite announcement on pension plans of the govern ment by January 31st of this year . We still haven't got it, and we haven't got it tonight .

Noth ing has been done about pensions since 1957 , although, let's face it, the Royal Comm ission made some very specific recommendations for changes; the Manitoba Teachers' Society came up with a comprehensive plan in November of 1960; and now the Trustees Organizations, both of them, have passed resolutions in which they indicate that they favour an improved teachers' pension plan.

I'm quite certain that if they felt that they wouldn't be saddled with a part of the cost of providing that and they only had to express themselves on the principle, that their res olutions would have been much stronger than they were. It's only natural that if they're going to have to pay for a substantial part of it that they should be a little careful in the kind of reso lution they pass, but certainly the principle, as expressed, has been unanim ous on the part of all these organizations. Now I am certainly not competent to judge on the relative merits of the plan as proposed April 2nd, 1962 Page 1317

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) •••• by the Royal Commis sion or the Manitoba Teachers' Society, but I cannot see, Mr. Chairman, if we accept the principle that teachers are human beings and that they're entitled to the same rights and .privileges as everybody else in our society, then we must acc

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-50
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 50.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5b42d9512ec7c8e40bfa949798b25ed72afe1303

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