Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

(2020) REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS

(HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY,

SECTION A

Virtual Meeting

Thursday, July 9, 2020

Morning Meeting

Issue No. 5

ISSN 2563-3511

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

Estimates: Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing

Hon. S. Robinson

T. Stone

S. Furstenau

THURSDAY, JULY 9, 2020

The committee met at 9:35 a.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND

HOUSING

On Vote 37: ministry operations, $120,978,000.

The Chair: Does the minister have any opening remarks?

Hon. S. Robinson: I certainly do.

First of all, I’m speaking to you today from the territories of

the Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ peoples, the Esquimalt and Songhees Nations. I’m

grateful to be able to do this work from their beautiful

territories.

I want to take a few moments to just thank some key individuals

who have been working for the ministry and helping us to deliver on so

much for the people of this province.

First, I want to take a moment to thank the Parliamentary

Secretary for TransLink, the member for North Vancouver–Lonsdale, for

her tremendous work as a champion for transit and TransLink on the Lower

Mainland. She connects regularly with stakeholders, making sure that

we’re hearing from them. She works, together with me, on a regional

transportation strategy, and it’s really great to have her voice in that

work.

I also want to take a moment — I think it’s important — to thank

our public service. There are some key individuals that are joining me

today, mostly virtually. I have my deputy minister Kaye Krishna here and

my associate deputy minister Silas Brownsey. For assistant deputy

ministers, I have Tara Faganello, with the local government division,

and Greg Steves, with the office of housing and construction standards.

Jeff Vasey is joining us from the office of mass timber implementation.

David Curtis, executive financial officer and ADM of the management

services division, is here as well. Their work has been critical to our

ministry.

I also want to recognize the leadership of our Crown agencies:

B.C. Housing’s chief executive officer, Shayne Ramsay; B.C. Assessment

Authority’s president and chief executive officer, Jason Grant; and

Technical Safety B.C.’s president and chief executive officer, Catherine

Roome. I want to acknowledge their commitment to the people of British

Columbia and the work that they’ve been doing. They’re an amazing team,

and their commitment, certainly pre-COVID, was significant.

I want to just take a moment to mention the work that they have

been doing, which our government has asked them to do. They’ve been

working diligently to deliver on our 30-point housing plan. That has

been a lot of work, and they have been delivering a significant amount

of housing for the people of this province.

The Rental Housing Task Force recommendations. I know that the

hon. Chair was part of that. We are continuing to deliver on those

recommendations.

The investing in Canada infrastructure grants, approving 92

projects from two different funds: the community rec fund as well as the

rural and northern fund. That’s pretty significant.

I also want to acknowledge the work that we’ve been doing with 189

local governments to strengthen their abilities to serve their

communities.

We’ve also been working with the Mayors Council and Metro

Vancouver on the regional transportation strategy so that together we

can prioritize our shared values of efficient, effective, sustainable,

cost-effective transportation that meets the needs of future growth of

the region.

We’re also working through the development approval process review

so that together, working with industry, working with local governments,

we can streamline the development approval processes. All of this, and

more, has been the work of my ministry. That’s pre-COVID.

Then COVID happened, in mid-March. I want to acknowledge,

personally, and thank all of the staff, the public service, that went

above and beyond. I’ve been trying to explain it to people. Getting

reports at two in the morning from a deputy minister demonstrated her

commitment and the team’s commitment to making sure that peoples’ needs

were being met. We had to address eviction risk and what that would mean

under a health crisis. We had to look at developing a temporary rent

supplement.

[9:40 a.m.]

I want to give huge kudos to staff, to Shayne Ramsay and his team

at B.C. Housing and to the residential tenancy branch, for their

collaborative work to deliver on that program, where over 80,000 people

benefited during this crisis.

I also want to acknowledge that as a result of COVID, we’ve had to

deliver shelter to some of our most vulnerable citizens in our province

differently. Their ability to pivot, to plan and to respond has been

outstanding, and it’s something that we can all be proud of. But they

didn’t do it alone. They’ve had to do it with local governments, with

non-profits and with housing providers.

I want to give a huge thank-out and tremendous gratitude to all of

those folks who stepped up and delivered for some of the most vulnerable

citizens in British Columbia. It’s because they all worked together that

we were able to keep people safe. We can all be very proud of the work

that they have been doing, because we have really been very effective at

flattening the curve.

Finally, I want to just take a moment to express my gratitude to

my office staff — to Craig Ashbourne, Molly Henry, Jayne Ducker,

Christine White, Jena Rayner, Erica Williams. These folks kept my life

somewhat sane in what felt like, at times, an insane time. They helped

to coordinate and make sure that I had the information that I needed so

that we could respond effectively and efficiently for the people of

British Columbia, and I think that we’re better off for it.

My opening remarks certainly are about all the work that we’ve

been doing, but I think it’s about the people who are doing the work

that I want to focus on, because they have been doing a yeoman’s job,

and I think we should all be grateful. They’re often in various offices

around Victoria or around the province. People don’t often see them and

see the work that they do, and they have done an outstanding

job.

Finally, I want to just take a moment to thank my two critics, the

member for Kamloops–South Thompson and the member for Saanich North and

the Islands. They have been asking good questions. They have been

thoughtful in their questions, and they have been collaborative as

well.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate everyone’s hard work to

get us to this time where we’re doing estimates in a very unusual way. I

know it hasn’t been an easy time, but I’m also very, very proud to be a

British Columbian, because we know that we can work together for the

benefit of everyone.

T. Stone: Good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us today as we begin

the process of canvassing the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing

estimates.

I, too, will just take very, very brief moments here to

acknowledge all of the hard work and the exceptional talent within the

ministry, all of the staff who work so hard to deliver the programs and

services that are critically needed and relied upon by so many British

Columbians. I know many of the staff in the ministry personally, and I

certainly understand the stress and the anxiety that we’ve all been

going through, through COVID. The staff in the ministry have been

professional and have continued to put their shoulder into the good work

that they do.

Certainly, the 189 local governments, all the mayors and

councillors, the elected officials around the province, appreciate the

relationships with all of them — UBCM, all the associations and so

forth.

I, too, want to acknowledge the hard work of the minister.

Certainly, while we have differing views and opinions on many issues,

we, I think, both share a love for this province and a desire to want to

see life improve for British Columbians. There’s a lot of what goes on

in this ministry that is focused on exactly that.

Minister, I’m very happy that you and your family have coped well

through this pandemic, and I certainly wish that to continue in the

months and years ahead. We will continue to ask tough questions. You

were in opposition. You were effective in opposition. It’s an important

part of our system for there to be accountability on the decisions that

government makes. That’s why we’re here today.

I would like to just say, from a planning perspective today, that

we’re going to cover a lot of housing stuff this morning and into the

afternoon. I believe a member of the Green caucus will be asking some

questions at 11:30. So we’ll watch our clock there to make sure that

they can be cycled in at that time.

[9:45 a.m.]

The first piece that I wanted to canvass with the minister would

be this. The estimates that are in front of us are based on a budget

that was introduced in February, pre-pandemic. Obviously, there were

signs of the pandemic and so forth emerging around the world, but we

weren’t fully into it here in British Columbia. A budget was brought in.

A set of estimates across all ministries were part of that budget.

Obviously, life has changed dramatically for British Columbians. It’s no

different with the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. There have

been some very significant impacts as a result of this

pandemic.

It is unfortunate, from our perspective, that we’re not debating a

revised budget or a revised set of estimates that reflect those impacts.

So I’m going to ask a few questions at the start of this process to try

and understand how the pandemic has actually impacted the Ministry of

Municipal Affairs and Housing and the programs and the supports and

services within it.

My first question to the minister would be this: could she please

outline for us exactly how the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted revenues

and expenses within the ministry, as well as capital expenses and

capital timelines within the ministry?

There clearly must be impacts. I’m wondering if the minister could

provide an accounting for us of what those revenue and expense impacts

have been since the budget was introduced in February. The estimates at

that point provided a certain picture, which is obviously very, very

different as we look at where we are today and where we’re going in the

month and years ahead.

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the question. The normal ministry operations or

budget have not been significantly impacted by COVID-19. While there

have been some adaptations that have needed to be made, there hasn’t

been any impact to the budget.

T. Stone: Perhaps I could rephrase the question. I just want to be

absolutely clear on this point. How has COVID-19 impacted the internal

and external recoveries within the ministry?

[9:50 a.m.]

I think this is important because we do know that there have been

a number of announcements that were made as part of the government’s

response to the pandemic, the temporary rental supplement just being one

example, that actually have fiscal implications. I just want to

absolutely determine and confirm that notwithstanding the pandemic that

we’re in, there has been no material change whatsoever to the internal

and external recoveries within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing.

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to share with the member that our response to COVID is

available in a separate vote, and it’s not part of the formal budget of

the ministry.

T. Stone: Could the minister, then, detail whether or not additional funds

were actually provided to the ministry for the COVID-19 response? What

were those amounts? How were those funds allocated within the

departments inside the ministry? Have all of those funds, to this point,

actually been expended? If not, how much of the funds have not been

expended?

[9:55 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: You know, we made a very significant response, particularly for

those who are most vulnerable, those who are in a situation where they

didn’t have the ability to keep themselves safe, those who are most

marginalized in our province. We made sure that we had to thin shelters,

that we had the opportunity to make sure that everyone was

safe.

We also took very significant steps around making sure that people

weren’t evicted for non-payment of rent or other reasons, given the

health risks. That was significant work. Again, I think, right across

this nation every single province took that step to make sure that

people were safe, and that was the priority for our

government.

We’re also only one of a few provinces — I believe that there’s

only one other province — that had a temporary rent supplement to help

those who were at risk of losing their homes — also making sure that we

paid it directly to landlords so that landlords were also supported

through a time when perhaps people weren’t able to make rent.

These programs went a significant way to help people, because at

the end of the day, that’s how we understand government’s role, and

that’s our commitment. It’s to help people to get through difficult

times.

With that, I will let the member know that that work is under a

different vote and did not come through this current budget that we are

debating right now.

T. Stone: I’m well aware of the reality of how the votes work, although I

appreciate the minister pointing that out to me. I think we all know

that on page 57, there is the supplement to the estimates and that’s

where the internal and external recoveries are detailed.

I think we also know that there are, without question, some

additional internal and external recoveries and fiscal impacts to the

ministry’s budget since the budget was introduced back in February,

pre-COVID.

My question is: can the minister detail the dollar amounts of

those impacts? Clearly, the government has had to respond to this COVID

crisis in a number of facets in terms of programs and services that are

delivered through the ministry, and has done so with some additional

moneys that have been allocated to the ministry.

I would remind the minister that the Solicitor General, the

Government House Leader, has indicated several times that members of the

opposition will be able to ask questions of the government about both

the base budget that was introduced in February and also the impact of

the COVID pandemic and the supplementary estimates therein.

I’ll also take the opportunity to read into the record that the

Minister of Finance was asked this exact question on Tuesday, June 23 of

this year. She was asked if there would be the opportunity to ask

questions and assure accountability on the supplementary estimates and

the impacts on ministry budgets.

The Minister of Finance said this: “As I said that day when those

dollars passed, we are accountable for every dollar of that $5 billion.

The members know that. They know they have an opportunity here in

estimates during this session to debate those dollars. Each of the

ministers who have individual programs will be responsible.”

She went on to say that she would be responsible for dollars in

her ministry and the overall fiscal picture of the province. But again:

“Each of the ministers who have individual programs will be

responsible.”

I’ll try once again. I’d sure appreciate if the minister could

provide us with a detailed accounting of those internal and external

recoveries that are directly attributable to the impacts of the COVID

pandemic and the impacts on programs and services that are within the

purview of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

[10:00 a.m. - 10:05 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the question. We certainly took a whole-of-government

approach to be as responsive as we can be.

I want to read into the record. There were a number of programs

that I neglected to read into the record. I think it’s important that

everyone understand the actions that we took in order to deliver for

people in British Columbia.

Not only did we launch the B.C. temporary rental supplement

program for three months, we then extended it for July and August,

because the need and the demand were certainly still there, with renters

facing significant challenges due to COVID. We also provided temporary

housing and supports for former residents of the Oppenheimer encampment

in Vancouver and the Pandora corridor and Topaz Park encampments in

Victoria.

We also supported and delivered, and are continuing to do this,

meal delivery services to support vulnerable residents in B.C. Housing

or non-profit-managed buildings, including SROs, where those folks have

lost access to their regular supports, like food banks and hot meal

programs, or they couldn’t venture out to grocery stores. We wanted to

make sure that people could be fed.

We also invested in and funded deep cleaning services in B.C.

Housing-owned buildings and buildings operated by non-profit housing

providers, including SROs, to make sure that people were

safe.

We secured spaces in hotels, motels and community spaces to extend

temporary shelters as part of our shelter thinning program and are

providing some subsidy adjustments for non-profits whose tenants are

unable to pay the rent as a result of COVID-19.

The other thing that we did, which is critical — but I don’t think

people would appreciate as much — is we procured things like toilet

paper, disinfectant, hand sanitizer and PPEs as part of our COVID

response.

These are continuing and ongoing activities. We are not through

the crisis response. We are still in that. It’s an active and evolving

situation. We’re managing based on needs, so it would be very difficult

to provide final numbers to the member, because it’s an active and

ongoing situation.

[10:10 a.m.]

T. Stone: I do appreciate that the minister is mentioning the myriad

programs and the supports. My issue here is not quibbling with program X

or program Y that were rolled out in response to a global

pandemic.

My concern, my issue, the focus of this line of questioning is to

understand the fiscal impacts of the pandemic, which have driven the

need for these additional services and programs. What have those fiscal

impacts been within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing?

The minister just went through and named a whole bunch of examples

of programs. That’s great. What I’m looking for are numbers, for the

actual fiscal impacts of the initiative of government to purchase hotels

and motels as part of the decampment process and the rapid response to

homelessness and so forth, the temporary rental supplement — all of the

things that the minister has mentioned, much of which is very

worthy.

The purpose of estimates here is for British Columbians, through

the, hopefully, focused questions of the official opposition, to ask

very focused financial, fiscal questions of the government to understand

what the impacts of these programs are on the budget that was presented

last February. Again, at this point, I’m hoping the minister won’t just

mention the programs by name but will actually answer the question that

I’ve posed, and that is: what have the impacts been on the ministry’s

budget? She can express it in terms of recovery, internal and external

recoveries. She can express it in terms of revenue expense.

How have those programs and services, some of which existed

previously, that have been amped up with additional funding in response

to the pandemic, others which were brand-new programs that never existed

before, were brand-new to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing…? They obviously have a price tag attached to them. What are the

total dollar values of those programs as expressed in terms of internal

and external recoveries on the Ministry of Municipal Affairs’

budget?

There was a budget presented in February — huge changes,

obviously, as a result of the pandemic. I’m looking for an understanding

of what the numbers are that represent that response to the pandemic, as

seen through the programs and services in the Ministry of Municipal

Affairs.

I will end this question, again, on this note. The expectation, as

it was communicated by the Minister of Finance — not that long ago, June

23 — was that the ministers would be accountable and would be

responsible to detail the fiscal impact of the COVID pandemic on the

budgets within the ministries. That’s what I’m asking the minister.

That’s the information. Those are the details I’m looking for the

minister to provide here for us today.

[10:15 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I really do appreciate the question that the member is asking. We

are working very closely with the Minister of Finance, working within

the $5 billion allocation that was established for the COVID response.

We are, frankly, in the middle of that response.

[10:20 a.m.]

There will be an accounting at some point in the future around it,

but we are still in the middle. So at this point, I can’t provide the

level of detail that the member is asking for because we are continuing

in this response. We are still in response phase. I look forward to

sharing information with the member in the future.

T. Stone: Is the minister saying that she is unable to share the fiscal

impact of the COVID pandemic on the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing, or is she unwilling to do so?

[10:25 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’m absolutely willing to share numbers once we have

them.

This is an ongoing crisis. We have seen how this crisis impacted

us in March and through April and then May in terms of understanding how

long we would be in this very difficult and, I would even say, awkward

and weird time that is requiring significant adjustments to traditional

programs and taking care of people. But it would be absolutely, I think,

premature to report out on the fiscal impact at this point in time,

because we are still in the middle of this pandemic.

I do look forward to a full accounting and certainly sharing that

with the public. The public accounts will certainly be there. But we are

absolutely in the middle of our response, and it would absolutely just

be premature to identify exactly where things are at. I think that once

we are through the pandemic and we are through the response, we’ll

certainly be able to share all of the specific fiscal impacts with the

member and all of British Columbia.

T. Stone: Well, the Minister of Finance said on June 23 that each and every

minister would be accountable for the dollars within their budgets and

that the appropriate time to canvass any and all questions related to

the budgets of the ministries is during this estimates process. She made

it very clear, in the quote that I’ve read into the record now a couple

of times, that she expected ministers to answer direct questions about

the impacts of the COVID pandemic on ministry budgets and that ministers

would provide those answers. You’re not doing that today.

I guess my next question would be…. There was a $5 billion action

plan announced that was unanimously supported by all members of the

Legislature back on March 23. Are you telling the people of British

Columbia that the minister has no idea what component of the $5 billion

COVID action plan has been allocated for programs and services delivered

by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing?

Hon. S. Robinson: We are working within the $5 billion framework that was

established in March as part of our COVID response. We are working

closely with the Minister of Finance and closely monitoring

expenditures.

[10:30 a.m.]

We’re just not done yet. We’re still in the middle of an emergency

response. We’re still in an emergency. We’re still in a state of

emergency. It’s within that context that I don’t want to be misleading

around what our expenditures are, given that we are still in a state of

emergency, we’re still responding, and we’re just not through this

yet.

T. Stone: Well, could the minister please answer this question: how is it

premature for her to provide even a preliminary number today that

represents what portion of the $5 billion her ministry has been

allocated? How is it premature for her to provide that today in these

budget estimates when her colleague the Minister of Finance is going to

be providing British Columbians with an economic update in five days’

time?

On July 14, five days from now, the Minister of Finance will be

providing an economic update. What I’m asking today is: how can the

minister say that it’s premature for her to even provide some semblance

of how much of the $5 billion has been allocated to her ministry for

services and programs — even an accounting of how much money has been

received of that $5 billion, what that money has been allocated for and

how much money is unallocated?

Those would all be numbers that would be well understood in the

Ministry of Finance and should be well understood in the Ministry of

Municipal Affairs and Housing as well.

Again, how is it premature for the minister today to say, “No, I

can’t tell you any of the numbers, can’t tell you what we’ve received as

a ministry as part of the $5 billion COVID action plan,” yet her

colleague is going to be providing a fiscal update, an economic update,

on July 14, which, again, is only five days from today?

[10:35 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ll reiterate again that we continue to work very closely with

the Minister of Finance. We are in the midst of this pandemic and in the

midst of our response. So it would be disingenuous to report out on

final numbers.

Just by way of example, when we first realized that we were in

this pandemic and we decided that we would support renters with a

temporary rent supplement program, it was a three-month program, with

the hope, fingers crossed, that we would be through this pandemic in

just a matter of months.

We’ve certainly seen that that hasn’t been the case. We’re still

in a state of emergency that gets extended every couple of weeks.

Everyone, I think, hopes that we’ll be in a different place, and that

hasn’t been realized just yet.

We are being responsive and responsible in working very closely

with the Minister of Finance in making sure that we are within that $5

billion fiscal response to COVID-19 and working closely with her

ministry to make sure that we can continue to deliver for the people of

British Columbia, continue to keep them safe.

When we are through this crisis, we’ll certainly be able to

provide accurate numbers to the members and to British Columbians so

that there is a full accounting of how our programs were able to deliver

and how much it cost.

T. Stone: I will respectfully disagree with the minister. I don’t believe it

would be disingenuous at all to provide details on expenditures as

they’re happening.

By the way, when we do estimates every single year…. Put the COVID

pandemic to the side. In the regular fiscal year, when we’re doing the

estimates process, we’re only partially through the fiscal year. We

don’t know what’s ahead of us, but there’s a set of projections in the

estimates that are provided, and provided for, in each ministry, and the

ministers are expected to be able to answer basic questions around those

allocations.

[10:40 a.m.]

If the minister is indeed working, as she says, “so closely with

the Ministry of Finance,” then I will ask again: how much of the $5

billion COVID funding has been allocated to the Ministry of Municipal

Affairs and Housing? Number 2, how has that $5 billion been allocated to

the different programs and services in her ministry? Number 3, how much

has been actually spent, of those allocations, let’s say to June 30. As

of June 30, how much of the allocations have actually been spent, and

how much is left?

Those are very straightforward questions. If she and her staff are

working as closely with the Minister of Finance and her staff…. The

minister, I believe, should be able to provide and actually has an

obligation to provide those details to the people of British Columbia as

part of this estimates process.

[10:45 a.m. - 10:50 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate, again, the member’s question and his desire for

everything to be normal, like under normal circumstances. I share his

desire in terms of how things operate, but we’ve been in very abnormal

times with very abnormal challenges.

Again, I’m going to say that under normal circumstances for the

estimates we have predictability, we have projections and we have very

clear parameters. But when you’re in a crisis, like the one that we’re

in, we are continually evolving and changing program design to better

meet the needs of people who are really struggling.

Again, I’m going to come back to the temporary rental supplement

program that we designed and how it played out, not having a very clear

understanding in the moment about what the uptake was going to be on

that program, how it was going to evolve over time, whether or not it

was going to be three months or five months. Under normal circumstances,

we have some predictability, we understand whose needs we’re meeting and

we can design a program based on an estimation of what the budget ought

to be. This one has been an ever-changing one.

We’re trying to meet the needs of British Columbians as best we

can. We’re still spending the dollars within the $5 billion bucket. I

know that the Finance Minister will have an update about where things

are at, but again, that continues to change and evolve. She’ll be

providing the update shortly.

T. Stone: Well, yes, we all desire things to return to “normal.” But I’ll

say this to the minister: I also think British Columbians desire some

accountability here.

It is an absolutely normal practice, and has been for as long as

the Legislature has conducted estimates and the way it’s conducted

estimates, for the government of the day to bring in a budget, typically

in February, including estimates for every ministry, which are all based

on projections, which are then diligently tracked ministry by ministry

through the forthcoming four quarters.

[10:55 a.m.]

Having served in cabinet, I learned a whole bunch of things. One

thing I know for absolutely certain is that we have one of the most

professional public services in the world. There is no doubt in my mind,

nor do I think in most British Columbians’ minds, that the public

service, the civil servants who work in the minister’s ministry, are

tracking these numbers.

They know how much of the $5 billion to manage the COVID pandemic

has been allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

They know how that allocation has been allocated into different programs

and services, like the temporary rental supplement the minister keeps

mentioning. They also know how much of those allocations have been spent

over the last three months. Let’s say to June 30.

I’m not sure what the minister expected we were going to be

discussing today in this estimates process if it isn’t the actual

estimates themselves — what the government presented in February layered

on top of the $5 billion COVID pandemic plan and the impacts that that’s

had. But that’s what we’re here to discuss. We desire normalcy. We also

desire some accountability.

Once again, recognizing that the public service knows darn well

how much money was allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing, how that has been allocated to different programs in the

ministry and where the expenditures are to, say, June 30, will the

minister provide those numbers to the people of British Columbia, the

taxpayers of British Columbia, and do so today?

[11:00 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’d be very happy to debate the budget that was allocated in

February. I look forward to the questions from the member and other

members on that budget.

Detailed expenditures, which the member is asking for, related to

the COVID response…. As he would know, we don’t report out on in-year

actuals during estimates, but certainly, the actuals will be released in

the public accounts.

I really do look forward to having the debate and the discussion

about the budget that was tabled in February. I know that British

Columbians are probably really eager to hear about that as

well.

T. Stone: Well, again, the member’s colleague the Minister of Finance made

it very clear, only a couple of weeks ago, that ministers were expected

to answer direct questions about the $5 billion COVID pandemic plan and

the impact that that has had on different ministries. For whatever

reason, the minister is refusing to do that here today.

I would also highlight for the minister…. This is from

Parliamentary Practice , fifth edition,

chapter 12, 12.7.3.

“Scope of debate. The supply process can be lengthy and detailed,

providing members the opportunity to review all government ministries by

asking questions about ministry plans and proposed spending and to

consider and approve the money requested by the government.”

When I take that and I layer on top of that the Minister of

Finance, who put a very clear directive and expectation out to her

ministerial colleagues…. “Each of the ministers who have individual

programs will be responsible, and they will answer questions.” I’m

baffled as to why the minister continues to fall back on a response that

is trying to suggest it’s too early to put a fence around

this.

The numbers…. Apparently, nobody in the ministry is keeping track

of the total dollar amount that it received from the Finance Ministry as

part of the $5 billion COVID plan. Apparently, no one in the ministry,

and the minister herself, is paying any attention to what those

allocations are or how much has been allocated to programs. I just

refuse to believe that that’s the case.

We have a professional civil service that are very, very good at

what they do. I am a former minister. I know how this works. I know how

closely the Ministry of Finance, in consultation with the different

ministries, monitors every single penny of taxpayers’ money. They are

doing that now, but the minister refuses to provide us with any detail

on these allocations.

[11:05 a.m.]

I’m going to ask one final time. In light of the direction that

the Minister of Finance has said very publicly and her expectation, in

light of what parliamentary practice is actually supposed to look like

when it comes to the estimates process, as detailed in Parliamentary

Practice , fifth edition, and in light of the fact that British

Columbians have a right to understand how their tax money is being

spent, how much of the $5 billion COVID pandemic action plan has been

allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing? Of that

amount, how have those dollars been allocated to different programs and

services within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and

Housing?

Finally, how much of those funds have been spent as of June 30,

and what is the remaining balance that there still is in those

allocations?

[11:10 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ve been really clear with the member that, with the evolving and

changing circumstances, there is certainly some concern around putting a

fine point on expenditures, because we are in the middle of

this.

It is an absolutely normal practice, and has been for as long as

the Legislature has conducted estimates and the way it’s conducted

estimates, for the government of the day to bring in a budget, typically

in February, including estimates for every ministry, which are all based

on projections, which are then diligently tracked ministry by ministry

through the forthcoming four quarters.

What I can share with

the member…. To date, we made some significant hotel purchases from the

HAFI special account — about $105 million in order to house people that

were formerly in Oppenheimer Park and Topaz and the Pandora corridor. We

also were allocated — again, it’s notional — $11.4 million to operate

hotels. Again, this is not till June 30, as the member had asked in

terms of a framework. This is just a notional allocation that would

allow us to be responsive. Again, this is all subject to change, given

that we don’t have full appreciation for how long we are going to be in

this situation, and we need to be responsive.

The temporary rent supplement. We were allocated $84 million for

the first three months. We have since extended it for a couple of more

months. So $64 million is the estimation for the extension. But again,

we’re in the middle of delivering on these programs and services. It’s

case-dependant, so those numbers are possibly likely to change. I just

want to make sure that the member understands. A nod would suffice that

he understands that these are potentially subject to change.

We did get an allocation of $43 million for the original COVID

response in March for cleaning, security, meals, sort of as a bundle so

that we could be effective and efficient and respond to needs as we saw

them. There’s an additional $14 million that we were allocated for

additional shelter thinning, as we call it, making sure that in

responding to SROs, which were a significant concern for the health

response, we took some swift action there.

That’s where we’re at to date. Again, I want to make sure that all

members and the public know that this has been a health response and

making sure that we could take care of this variety of needs. This is

all part of the $5 billion bucket. Again, these numbers are not, I would

say, final numbers at all, because we are still in the middle of a

pandemic and there is certainly, possibly, more response that’s going to

be required. I think everyone needs to know that that is certainly a

possibility.

T. Stone: I nod my head to the minister. Those are numbers. I appreciate

that. I’m a bit disappointed it took an hour and 45 minutes for us get

to that point, but we are where we are.

[11:15 a.m.]

We’ll have time, through this estimates process, to go through

those numbers. They do relate to programs and services that are very

important to a lot of British Columbians, so I’ll look forward to asking

focused questions on each of those areas.

The numbers being notional — well, that’s the case every year in

the estimates process. The very word “estimate” is that you don’t know

what the final number is going to be at the end of the day. You’re doing

your best to project and take into account all kinds of circumstances

that could very well change. I appreciate the fact that we are now

finally, in this estimates process, talking about some

numbers.

On that note, again, recognizing that the Green member…. I believe

the member for Cowichan Valley is going to be asking a few questions,

and we have her scheduled for 11:30. So I’m going to take just the

remaining 15 minutes here to ask a couple of questions about the Home

Adaptations for Independence program. This is a very successful, very

important program that was created a number of years ago. It provides

issues.

Our understanding is that the HAFI program was closed in March

2020 due to the COVID pandemic. In the opposition, we’re hearing from a

good number of people who are quite frustrated about applications that

they have in and where things are at with those applications. Others are

frustrated that it would appear that the program may not be

reopening.

My first question to the minister would be this. When was the

decision made to actually close the HAFI program? Was the decision made

on the advice of the provincial health officer? If not, who made the

decision, at the end of the day, to close the HAFI program?

[11:20 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to thank the member for the question. Part of the COVID

response is, of course, keeping everyone safe, so we did press pause.

Again, this is about bathroom renovations and having people come into

people’s homes. This is not the time to do it. In fact, B.C. Housing had

stopped all indoor renovation work during the COVID as a result of

needing to make sure that people were kept safe.

What I will share with the member as well — and this is not

COVID-related — is that the program was scheduled for a review. To make

sure that we plan…. Before COVID, we were undertaking a review to make

sure that it most effectively meets people’s needs. That work is

happening as well, so it is an unfortunate timing challenge, but there

were two separate decisions made.

What I also want to let the member know and British Columbians

know is that, for those applications that were underway, the deadline

has been extended to June 30 so that that work can happen. But I’m

looking forward to reconfiguring this program so that it can most

effectively be delivered for British Columbians that need adaptation to

their homes so that they can continue to live and age in

place.

T. Stone: I agree. It’s a very popular, very important program that makes a

huge difference in the lives of many British Columbians.

Now, I understand the minister’s point around, during the COVID

pandemic and the perceived risk and so forth, that being the driving

force in not wanting contractors to be going into people’s homes. Again,

I really want to understand, though. As part of that decision — the

decision to close the HAFI program and not allow for those retrofits,

that work to be done…. Was the closure of the program a result of a

decision to that effect of the provincial health officer? If not, who

made the decision to close down the HAFI program during the COVID

pandemic?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ll provide a response to the member’s question, and then I’m

hoping we might be able to take a five-minute break, if that’s

permissible.

The Chair: For sure. Thank you, Minister.

Hon. S. Robinson: Again, the pause that we took was based on the understanding that

we were all to sort of hunker down in place, limit our social contact,

limit our bubbles. So based on the advice that all British Columbians

were hearing, we pressed pause on the program.

That is back up now because we are in a different place and in a

different time, while still under public health orders and public safety

in a crisis situation, but we have a framework for doing that work. That

is sort of what I’ll say are the steps that were taken as a result of

what was happening around COVID.

Work is back now. I want to assure the member and assure British

Columbians that that work is continuing to happen now for those

applications that were made, and we’ve extended it to June

We are simultaneously, and this was planned for spring of 2020,

doing a program review. New applications won’t be considered until the

fall, because we want to make sure that we are delivering this program

to the people that absolutely need it the most and make sure that

British Columbians can continue to live and age gracefully in their

homes. So we’re just reconfiguring the program so that it best meets

peoples’ needs.

The Chair: We’re going to move to the member for Cowichan Valley. Is that

correct?

T. Stone: Yes. But I think the minister has requested a really quick break

for two minutes. I would support the request.

The Chair: Clearly the Chair needs to restock my coffee. Thanks,

everybody. We’ll take a five-minute recess right now.

The committee recessed from 11:28 a.m. to 11:37 a.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

S. Furstenau: I’m delighted to be here. I think I’ll start right where I am,

which is in the Cowichan Valley. I just want to paint a little bit of a

picture, and then I have a couple of questions for the

minister.

I’m starting with a really big shout-out to the Cowichan Housing

Association — John Horn and his incredible team — and Michelle Staples,

who have been working very closely, and we’re very grateful for this,

with B.C. Housing to build a really Cowichan-made plan that responded to

the urgent need for housing and other accommodations for people without

homes in Cowichan in light of COVID-19. The plan that they came up with

together has been effective, and we are hoping that funding will be

found to extend the program through to the end of September.

I’m aware that B.C. Housing recently announced two new

developments to house 100 people without homes, with building to begin

in the fall and opening sometime late winter. This has been something

we’ve been advocating for in Cowichan for a long time. I’m aware that

there are some concerns that are being raised and that B.C. Housing is

working with the local community to mitigate the concerns and issues

that have been raised.

Before I get to the question, I just want to say for the

minister…. Cindy Lise from Our Cowichan Network went out and gathered

some impact statements from people who had been provided some housing

during this time.

A few of those statements. “Having housing, I got a job,” said

Dan.

“Having a secure place to sleep that is safe and having a bed to

sleep in and having a bathroom, to be able to wash and clean, has

improved my mental health.”

“Quality of life has improved big time from what it was before.

Here I am, clean all the time. I have clean clothes. Before, I could

have a shower once a week and clean clothes once a week. There was no

water. It was so hard to pack all your stuff around, particularly at my

age.”

I just wanted the minister to hear some of those really positive

impact statements.

The concern in Cowichan now is that funding for these current

accommodations — the tenting spaces and the hotel spaces — may not

continue after September. Without the certainty around this, it’s

causing a really great deal of anxiety for people involved.

[11:40 a.m.]

Can the minister provide the community with assurance that the

housing options that have been available to date in response to the

COVID pandemic will remain in place after September so that nobody goes

back out onto the street?

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to thank the member for getting this interaction off on a

really good note with those comments.

It warms my heart to hear that all our collective efforts, with

certainly the mayors and the local governments as well as the

not-for-profits who’ve been working for so long to make a difference in

their communities…. To hear it come back feels good. So I want to thank

her for sharing that, because I think we all need to hear that — that

the hard work of getting housing for people who are most vulnerable and

knowing the impact it has, just with dignity, is heartwarming. So I want

to thank her very much for setting the tone.

[11:45 a.m.]

We have been working diligently around the province, through B.C.

Housing, to house people who have been so marginalized for so long

through the COVID response. What I can share with the member….

Certainly, it’s beyond Cowichan. It’s right around the province. As of

June 29, there were 2,980 spaces secured at 111 sites. That includes

hotels, motels and community centres right across the

province.

I want to give a huge shout-out to B.C. Housing staff for all of

their work right around the province to identify those resources and

those opportunities.

The numbers are continually in flux because some of them are

shorter-term or longer-term leases, depending on what’s available and

what’s possible, and the demand changes. As housing that we’ve been

building comes on line, people are able to move in. So while those are

numbers as of June 29, I expect that by the end of this month, they will

be different again.

We are reaching out to operators to decide whether or not they

wish to continue the arrangement. A lot of these cases were motels or

hotels that have seen the tourism opportunities aren’t there, so they’re

happy to work with our government to house folks in the interim. A

majority of these are on lease. They are set to expire. We are in the

process of extending those leases where it’s possible, where there is

opportunity.

We want to make sure that we can continue to house people. No one

wants to see anyone having to return to the street or to the park or to

a ravine. That’s not our intent. So we’re working very diligently to

identify where we can extend leases and create opportunities.

We’re also, of course, exploring ways to do permanent housing. I

know that in the member’s community, I’m very excited that we’re able to

deliver on that. Also, we’ve purchased a number of hotels, and we’re

expediting development plans as part of our work to transition people

from homelessness to long-term, permanent and stable housing.

That work continues, and I look forward to any other questions the

member might have around this.

S. Furstenau: I appreciate that response. I guess just specifically to Cowichan,

could the minister give some indication as to when the folks at the

Cowichan Housing Association would be able to expect a certain response,

a certain answer or an answer with certainty about the existing spaces

that have been created in this time period and whether they’ll be

extended past September? When can they expect that certainty?

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate that this can be anxiety-inducing for many in the

community, particularly those that are precariously housed. I know that

the member feels that anxiety herself for those who are most

vulnerable.

We are working as diligently and as quickly as we can, and I can

commit to let the member know as soon as we have solid plans in place.

We’ll certainly communicate that to her, to her office. Again, as a

government, we do not want to return anyone to homelessness. That’s the

work that we’re continuing to strive to do, and we’ll certainly get her

the details once they are solidified.

S. Furstenau: Thanks to the minister for that. We look forward to that coming

forward.

Just to transition from people living without homes to the more

precariously housed. I know there are a lot of efforts to ensure that

people don’t lose housing at this time. We’ve seen so much of the

inequalities laid bare because of this pandemic and the exposure of so

many economically vulnerable people.

[11:50 a.m.]

My question for the minister…. It’s a series of questions. What is

the ministry doing to assess the economic impacts of COVID on the

ability of British Columbians to pay rent? Specifically, how many people

have applied for the rent subsidy as of June 1, and how many have been

confirmed eligible?

Hon. S. Robinson: When COVID hit and we knew that we were dealing with a significant

health pandemic, we took swift action, as a government, doing our best

to keep everyone safe. It was for that reason, for example, that we did

a ban on evictions for non-payment of rent, and we put a moratorium on

any active evictions for any other reason. Again, the primary concern

for our government — and the priority — was to keep everyone

safe.

I know that that created significant challenges, certainly, for

landlords, for example, especially those who have mortgage helpers and

the impacts that that meant for them if they had a tenant who couldn’t

pay rent.

[11:55 a.m.]

I want to say that we continued to urge people who could pay rent

to continue to pay rent, that there was certainly an obligation to

maintain the relationship between a landlord and a renter. I’m very

proud of the fact that, based on some preliminary data that we’ve been

looking at — and we’re monitoring this all the way through — the

majority of renters did pay full rent. We’ve certainly been checking in

with LandlordBC, with TRAC, with UDI and others to find out what was

happening on the ground, making sure that we’re listening to them and

being responsive to what the experience was for people on the

ground.

Finding out that, I think, 83 or 84 percent of renters were paying

full rent, and 12 or 13 percent…. I can get the specific numbers to the

member if she’d like, but it was either 12 percent or 13 percent who

were paying partial rent. What that told me, again, was that British

Columbians were doing their level best to make rent and to keep things

whole. So it was through that process we recognized that there were

certainly going to be some people where it would be difficult to sustain

that.

That’s why we put together the temporary rent supplement. We had

significant uptake. I do have some numbers here. They’re just to

mid-June, which is the latest that I have. We had a total of 90,504

applications, and 82,681 were confirmed eligible. In that context, we

were able to provide support.

What we did with this program was the supports, whether it’s $300

if you’re an individual with no dependents…. If you hit the income

threshold, no dependents, $300. If you had dependents, $500. We paid it

directly to the landlord so that it would go against the amount owing. I

know that landlords appreciated the recognition that it went to

rent.

I want to commend B.C. Housing. It was a significant turnaround

time and a significant program to process. I want to acknowledge the RTB

staff that came in to support that program. That was a significant load,

with people working late into the night and working weekends to get this

program off and running. But I know that it’s made a significant

difference to thousands of British Columbians.

I think I’ve answered the member’s question. Perhaps she has

another one for me.

The Chair: Just noticing the time. I wondered if we had time for a short

question, or we can note the hour.

S. Furstenau: I’ll just do a very short one. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What is the trend with the applications right now? Are they

levelling off, going up or going down?

Hon. S. Robinson: The bulk of applications were certainly the early part of the

program. Every month they have dropped off significantly.

With that, noting the hour, hon. Chair, I move that the committee

rise and report progress on the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal

Affairs and Housing.

Motion approved.

The Chair: Thank you, Members. This committee is now

adjourned.

The committee adjourned at 12 noon.

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