Manitoba Hansard — 5 March 1981 (Sitting 31A, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-31a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 31A- 2:00p.m., THURSDAY, 5 MARCH 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 5 March 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Pet itions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Economic Development.

Can the Minister advise whether or not there have been any further developments pertaining to any negotiations involving the proposals that he had received in connection with a helicopter plant in Gimli, whether there's been any progress made since the time of his Estima te review in that regard? MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Economic Development. HON. J. FR ANK LIN JOHNSTON (S turgeon Creek): No, Mr. Speaker. I think I made it very plain in Estimates where we stood on that. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister advise whether there are any negotiations presently under way? MR. JOHNSTON: No, Mr.

Speaker. We made it very clear, unless they had the funding and unless the Federal Government believed that the project was a good one, that the Province of Manitoba would not be involved and I explained during my Estimates that the information on the report th at was made regarding it, it did not look like a favourable project and the Federal Government as a matter of fact, are not enthusiastic and the y are the experts on aerospace which we take advice from and we don't intend to do anything in Manitoba unless those things are favourable with the Federal Government.

If the company wants to come in with their own funds, etc., we have said the buildings are there. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs with regard to the question of oil pricing and oil product pricing in the Province of Manitoba.

Does the Minister have any concern about the results of the federal study on price fixing by the giant oil companies and does his department have any specific information on the matter of price fixing or any restrictive trade practices whatsoever, pertaining to the petroleum industry and the retail trade of that product in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, obviously my department is always concerned about affairs that pertain to consumers in our province and I can confirm that, cour tesy of the Federal Government, copies of the report which they issued yesterday were delivered to my department this morning. My staff is reviewing them but the matter is under discussion at the federal level and it involves federal legislation and at the moment that's where it stands. MR. EVANS: I thank the Min ister for that informat ion, Mr .

Sp eaker, but I wou ld ask the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs whether he and his department would be prepared to examine the problem as it exists in the Province of Manitoba, kno wing full well that there is cert ain federal jurisdiction and certain federal studies about to take place. But nevertheless, would he undertake to engage in a provincial study to see what impact this is having now on consumers in the Province of Manitoba? MR.

FILMON: I will say that our department would be happy to co-operate with the Federal Government in whatever way that we can to assist them in whatever stud ies they intend to undertake. The matter that's being dealt with, that of supposed collusive pricing practices, is one that clearly comes under federal jurisdiction and I think that, firstly, we don't have the legislative authority to deal with it; and secondly, we would not want to duplicate efforts that are being currently carried on by the Federal Government. MR. EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, I appreciate the Minister's observation that to a large degree this is federal jurisdiction but it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, without getting into a debate on legalities, that the Province of Manitoba does have some responsibility and certain jurisdictions even if it is only relating to the taxation thereof. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Honourable Minister whether he and his staff are prepared to do something right now to help counteract a situation whereby it seems price fixing is still going on and the consumers of this province are still being ripped off, right here today. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the Member for Brandon East that our government and my department are just as concerned, if not more so than the members on his side of the House, with anything that it is to the detriment of consumers in this province. If he wants us to deal with the aspect of taxation perhaps . my colleague, the Minister of Finance, would have comment to make on that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to ask a question of the Minister in his mood as an advocate defending the consumers. Can he tell the 1331

Thursday, 5 March 1981 House what results he had in using his good offices and reasonable and careful persuasion with the Greater Winnip eg Gas Company, to continue to provide their customers with the service they have always provided them with and which formed part of the basis upon which their rates were set by the Public Utility Board? MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that I would use my offices to force the gas company to continue to provide the services that they always have.

I mentioned at the time that the staff that the member talked about were in strike and obviously I cou ldn't suggest that they hire other people nor could I suggest that they force those people to come off strike or pass back- to-work legisla tion. I suggested that I would discuss with the gas company at the appropriate time, what measures could be taken to deal with the consumers' concerns about not receiving service or having to pay elsewhere for the service that they were being given, and I still intend to do that. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, would the appropriate time be in February or in August when the service is needed , because the Ho nourable the Mini ster indicated to the House that he would discuss it with them.

While he is discussing it with them, I wonder if the Minister can tell us whether the Public Utility Board in setting its rates, agreed that the gas company starting March 1, 1981, would be able to charge 19 percent interest on overdue accounts - which they are now doing over the amount of $15.00 - whether that particular increase in rates, namely a 19 percent interest charge on overdue accounts, was one of the things that was permitted by the Public Utility Board. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice and bring back the information. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and when the Honourable Minister takes it as notice, would he find out whether the gas company, in charging 19 percent for overdue accounts, intends to give 19 percent on overpaid accounts which they are charging when they are estimating gas consumption rather than reading the meter and charging people accordingly and demanding payment and demanding 19 percent interest on outstanding payments, when they have estimated more than what the customer has used. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, without accepting any of the

preamble to the question, I will take it as notice and bring back the appropriate information. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour.

Back in January I had provided the Minister with a copy of what purports to be a contract between a local security company and a so-called contractor who I sugge st in reality is an emp loyee and who I understand, has been so designated by that security company under The Private Investigators Act when dealing with its bonding, can he now advise as to what action he has taken to ensure that employees of that company will in future, receive the benefits of minimum wage legislation, Canada Pension, Workers Compensation and holidays with pay? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

KEN MacM ASTER (T homps on): Mr . Speaker, I spoke to the Member for Rossmere Monday or Tuesday of this week and told him that our department was finalizing their position on it and we felt at that time, that in fact our opinion would be the people involved in that particular agency or that particular corporation, our position would be that they are in fact the employees, not cont ract people. MR. SCHROEDER: Could the Minister advise as to how many employees were involved and as to whether you determined how much the average person was receiving per hour in wages? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, I haven't got that information at my fingertips. I can get it if the member wishes that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, I just have one question then for the Mini ster of Highways. He recently received a letter from the Chamber of Commerce in Flin Flon dealing with the road to nowhere up near Flin Flon. Can he advise as to what his response was? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mini ster of Highways. MR. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): I haven't had the opportunity to respond to that yet, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Memb er for Burrows.

MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable the Attorney General. At the present time, is there any holdup or delay in the processing of applications for liquor vendors permits? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to answer that question but I wonder if the member is referring to new liquor vendor agencies or transfers of vendors' permits? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, new and transfers. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I will undertake to review that matter with the officials from the Liquor Control Commis sion and advise the honourabl e member. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a que stion to the Honour able Min ister responsible for the Telephone System. In view of the fact that the Minister presently is lightly putting together the 1981 telephone directory for distribution in June, wou ld he place the Gouvernement du 1332

Thursday, 5 March 1981 Canada listing in its proper alphabetical position? Because in the present book it follows Government of Canada,

whereas I'm certain that he would agree and the Minister of Education would advise him so, that the letter "u" preceeds the letter "v" in the English alphabet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Transportation. MR. ORCHARD: I'll have to check the order in the present telephone directory and I'll assure my honourable colleague that we will deal with that matter post-haste and in all seriousness. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: There is a difference, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Minister of Ec onomic Development. Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister advise the House, and this is in reference to the television commercials that we are all watching with devotion on our television sets boos ting Manitoba, would he tell us whether those people who appeared in the commercials stating their reasons for loving to live and work in Manitoba, were each paid for doing so? MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: They were not paid anything by the province, Mr. Speaker.

They were paid according to the regulations or I believe the union scale which is demanded that they receive and that had to be done, there is no choice. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, I didn't ask them according to what scale they were being paid. I'm aware of the fact that there is an association of Canadian Television and Radio Artists. I'm asking who paid them, Mr. Speaker? The Minister did not answer that question. The question was, who paid them, were they paid, who paid them, how much were they paid? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the mem ber is asking sort of a foolish question, trying to trap me.

I quite frankly could think of nothing worse happening to me, but the people were paid by the advertising agency. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. The Ho nourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: The people were paid by the . advertising agency, Mr. Speaker. They in turn bill it to the province and we have to pay that amount of money. MS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister confirm th at th ere are many public service announc ements on tele vision in which the participants are not paid? Did he make any attempt to have this broadca st as a public service announcement, Mr. Speaker? MR.

JOHNSTON: There will be occasions, Mr. Speaker, when the station will use them in a space that they have available. We contract for so much time and it's played on television. If the television station wants to put it in a spot that's available, they have every opportunity to do so. MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Memb er for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster responsible for air ambula nce and yesterday you will remember, I attempted to get some straight answers from the Minister, but failed as have numerous other parties who have attempted that same task.

What I would like to know from the Minister today, and we're asking for specific details, is if he is prepared to table the tenders that he put out for the removal of the MU -2 from the area in which it was damaged, for the repair of the MU -2, for the purchase or lease of any replacement plane for the MU -2 and for the charges for a test flight of the Citation, which was brought in I understand by the government to test its capabilities and its advisability as an air ambulance plane. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Mini ster of Transportation. MR. ORCHARD: No, no and yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, either the Minister has trouble counting or he purposely left out one. There were four req uests for tenders, he can ch eck Hansard, I got three answers from him and I still haven't gotten any straight answers in that respect. The question has to be asked of the Minister as why he is hesitant to provide us with those tenders. Why is it that he would not want the people of this province through this body, the Legislature, to know how they went about tendering for the replacement and how they went about tendering for the repairs of the MU-2? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, first off the province did not tender for the repair of the MU-2. The MU-2 was insured by an insurance brokerage firm, I would assume that would be a proper description of them. When the MU -2 had its hard landing and had damaged the undercarriage and the wing, we contacted our insurance company and told them where the plane was and that we wished to have repairs undertaken. From that point in time on, Mr. Speaker, it was the responsibility of the insurer, not the province, to undertake removal and repairs of that plane. MR.

COWAN: The question that follows is, can the Minister provide us with the name of the insuring company, and while I'm asking questions on this subject I'd ask him if he has been informed that, by experts in the field of medical evacuation, that they are opposed to the continued use of the Aztecs, that they want a replacement immediately, and they are opposed to that use because they consider the Aztec to be an un acceptable aircraft for the type of medical evacuation which it is now being used for? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, first off I believe the insuranc e firm which carries the policy on our 1333

Thursday, 5 March 1981 government aircraft is Reed Stenhouse. Secondly, certairily concerns have been expressed to my department about the suitability of the Aztec for medical evacuation. We have never maintained and I have never maintained, Mr. Speaker, that that was the ideal aircraft. That is why today we are in the process of finding a replacement for the MU -2 which has at least the capability and hopefully superior capabilities to the MU-2 for the purpose of medical evacuation. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Memb er for Rupertsland. MR.

HARVEY BOSTROM: Follo wing up on the question just asked the Minister of Highways, I would like to ask him why the government has delayed to this poiht in finding a suitable replacement aircraft which could have been used on an interim basis while he's going through the process of actually purchasing a new aircraft? MR. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Speaker, there seems to be some confusion on the part of the Members of the Opposition about the process by which one would go through the replacement of the MU -2.

As I've indicated on a number of occasions, we have two back-up airc raft which, even by our own dep artmental standards, are not equivalent replacement aircraft for the MU -2 and are not, in the long term, satisfactory for that purpose; but we do have two aircraft which are doing the job of medical evacuation right now, despite their inadequacy to do it in a comparable fashion to the MU -2. One of the problems in searching out aircraft for replacement is the problem of immediate availability of a suitable aircraft.

There are American registered aircraft that are available tomorrow, except for the fact that you can't fly them in Canada because of the registration. There are a number of problems which you don't immediately come to grips with. We did have some time ago, an aircraft in Winnipeg, which was advised to be suitable for medical evacuation, but when tried it was not. We are operating the service with two aircraft, one in Thompson, one in Winnip eg. Hopefully, Mr.

Speaker, after reviewing the advice of many experts on the capabilities of their aircraft for the purpose of medical evacuation, that we will have an ai rcraft to replace the MU -2 of equal, if not superior, characteristics. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister suggesting that another aircraft, similar in capacity to the MU -2, was not available to the government from any source in the time period following the crash of the MU-2 that the government owns? MR. ORCHARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I didn't indicate that. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Me mb er for Rupertsland with a final supplementary. MR.

BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister why he has allowed the people of Northern Manitoba to go with improper service over the past several weeks while he's been irresponsibly delaying the acqUisition of a suitable airc raft for Air Ambulance Service. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I would suppose that when one lives in a socialist dream world, taking care and consideration in spending taxpayers' dollars to find a replacement aircraft, is being irresponsible, as the Me mb er for Rupertsland would indicate.

However, that may have been the mode of operation, that you go out and buy the first thing that comes into sight. If during their administration, the first plane to fly into Win nipeg was the one I should have bought, according to the Member for Rupertsland. Mr. Speaker, we are responsible for all Manitobans when we make purchases on behalf of the taxpayer of Manitoba. We are attempting to do that in the best possible fashion, replacing the MU -2 with the best possible aircraft that we can get at the best possible financial arrangements for the people of Manitoba. If that, Mr.

Speaker, is being irresponsible, then God help us if we ever return to the kind of responsibility that we saw in eight years of ND P administration. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster in his answers to the Memb er for Rupertsland indicated that they had brought a plane in which they had anticipated might be suitable as a Medi-vac plane. I would ask the Minister if he can table the report which they should have gotten, that would indicate to him or that he used to base his decision that the plane was, in fact, not a suitable aircraft for medical evacuation in this province. MR.

ORCHARD: I would find it somewhat difficult, Mr. Speaker, to table a report on the unsuitability of that aircraft because there was no report made. The cold hard fact of the situation was we couldn't get a stretcher inside the plane and it would hardly suit to be a medical evacuation aircraft if we couldn't get a stretcher inside of it. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

One would have anticipated that the government would have tried to determine if a stretcher would fit in the plane before they brought it to Manitoba for tes ting, so it just shows not only irresponsibility, but a total inability to deal with this problem.

I'd like to ask the Minister of Labour a question in respect to the bankruptcy of Lambair and his efforts, or efforts which he has indicated he has undertaken in regard to th e wages which are owing the employees of that operation; can the Minister now inform the House as to What action he has taken to ensure that they have wages that are coming to them being made available to them? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I feel that the last comment, or whatever it was by the Member for Churchill, deserves some reply. First of all, Mr. Speaker, we did not request that aircraft to come ih.

A firm owning that aircraft found out we were in need of a medical evacuation aircraft and brought that craft into Winni peg for Air Division to take a look at it; to test fly it to determine if it would be suitable, at their own cost I might add, Mr. Speaker, and unsoli cited by my department. If that is the kind of irrespo nsibili ty the Mem ber for Ch urch ill is referring to, then he is in the same category as the Member for Rupertsland. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Churchill with a final supplementary. 1334

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. COWAN: Not wishing to continue the debate, Mr. Speaker, which only confirms the government's lack of responsibility, I would like to . MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. Sh owi ng an unwillingness to take

part in the debate, I wish the honourable mem ber would proceed with the question. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question was to the Minister of Labour and the question was if he could provide us with some report as to his undertaking to ensure that the workers of Lambair were going to receive wages which are owing to them? I would also ask the Minister, as I have to combine two questions in one session now because he did not answer the first one, if he can indicate if a comm ittee has been set up as he has suggested in the papers, and if so who is on that committee? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Speaker, there was no hesitation on my part to answer the question and never has been to answer any questions that come from across the way. Yes, a committee has been established; and yes, documents have been signed to fund that particular comm ittee; and yes , they've been meet ing in Thom pson the la st two to th ree days. A represe ntative of the Federal Government; a representative of my department; two employees from Lamb's; two people from Lamb's management; a Mr. Brian Campbell in Thom pson has been selected as the chairman of th at particular comm ittee.

They have made several enquiries, of which I'm su pportive of all of th em; they are enquiring now of the Federal Government, because it is th Federal Government's jurisdiction - Aviation is that, just that, the Federal Government's jurisdiction - they are enquiring now, of them, the formula and procedure which they'll work through to get at the wages which they have coming to them. They have also applied, again with my support, to the Federal Government again, in an effort to waive the waiting period for UIC benefits. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney-General. I would like to ask him if he and his department have had a chance to review the findings of the inquest into the death at Alpha Metals in Transcona, last fall? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I didn't catch all of that question. I think he is referring to the inquest that was completed at the end of last week. I am awaiting a copy of the recommendations from that inquest at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Minister if he would also try and determine why, at the end of a provincial inquest, the Canadian Armed Forces have announced that they are going to conduct a further inquest into the matter. I would have thought that a provincial inquest would have been sufficient to provide all the evidence and findings necessary for this type of accident and I would like to ask the Minister if he would undertake to find out why the Canadian Armed Forces feels it necessary to conduct a further inquest. MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will try to obtain that information. M�.

SPEAKE R: The Honour able Me mber for El mwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. SPEAKER, I want to ask a question to the Attorney-General concerning the recent decision of the Winni peg Police to adopt what has been described as a less humane bullet as a result of a judge's recommendation on an inquest. Does the Attorney-General have any concern or interest about this decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, concerned. am always MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, since the Attorney General hasn't been affected by the decision, I would ask him whether this matter might be a subject of review by the Manitoba Police Commission given the fact that this is apparently a less humane device - and that's how it's been described by the police as well - that it may result in greater damage and may possibly necessitate some change in polic e procedures. Would this not be a logical item for the Police Commission to review? MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it might be. MR. DOERN: I would ask the Attorney-General whether he would in fact refer this matter to the Commission? MR.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to firstly review that matter with the Chief of Police, prior to making any decision on review by the Ma nitoba Pol ice Comm ission and review the concerns that the member has expressed and other comments that have been made about this particular decision. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Memb er for Win nipeg Centre. MR.

J.R. (B UD) BOYCE: I wish to thank the Attorney-General for sending me a copy of the draft bill of the Federal Government on "Young People in Conflict with the Law", and ask him if it is his intention to refer that draft bill to the comm ittee that was established a couple of years ago on juvenile offenders. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, that draft of The Young Offenders Act to which the member refers is under review by my department and by other departments and officials. There is also to be firstly, 1335

Thursday, 5 March 1981 meetings of officials from the Federal Government and Provincial Governments to review various aspects of that bill and then it is anticipated that there will be a meeting of the Federal Minister and Provincial Ministers involved for a final review of that Act. MR. BOYCE: Since this is federal legislation, is it the government 's intention to make public their position vis-a-vis that Act, so that the public will have an opportunity to make presentation on committee, on second reading, should they find this necessary to do so?

As the Attorney-General is quite aware of, that there are some profound shifts in the philosophy of this new Act, and how does the Attorney-General intend to deal with it prior to it being considered in the House of Commons, because of it's impact on provincial legislation? Is it the intention of the government to make a public announcement or set a policy prior to it being considered on second reading in the House of Commons? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Sp eaker, I'm given to understand that the Federal Min ister will not be proceeding immediately in the House of Commons on th at bill until provincial off icials and administrations have had an opportunity to fully consider it and for there to be meetings between federal and provincial officials respecting, particularly in respect to financial implications of the bill.

Once we have completed our own internal review among our own departments and officials, I would expect that that may very well be about the time that my Estima tes may be under considera tion, or the Minister of Community Services who is also involved in the implications of that bill and I'm sure either he or I or both of us would be prepared to make our views known at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Winn ipeg Centre with a final supplementary. MR. BOYCE: One final question, Mr.

Speaker, there is a trial presently taking place in Sacramenta, California vis-a-vis, it's the creationist's position relative to teaching evolution in the school as a matter of fact rather than theory; and because the educational textbook industry is primarily based in the states and any influence such as judgments as will proceed from this will have an effect on educational textbooks, I wonder if it is possible for the Attorney-General to have someone in his department monitor the case and perhaps to the extent that he will get transcripts of the trial which is proceeding at the present time. MR.

MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, we can certainly undertake if it would assist the member, in obtaining whatever information we can about the trial for him. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Dauphin. MR. JIM GALBRAITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Min ister of Economic Development.

Several days ago I asked a couple of questions about the closing of Bata Shoes and the Glenella Creamery in Manitoba and I would like to ask the Min ister whether the head office of Salisbury House has been moved, as indicated in this brochure from the Leader of the Op position which was distributed into my constituency some time ago. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no urable Mi nis ter of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in Dec embe r of this year, Salis bury Ho use was purchased by Steinbergs, a company in Quebec.

The head office of Sal isb ury Hous e is st ill here in Manitoba and there remains the same amount of employees. MR. GALB RAITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a further question of whether the head office of Grey Goose has been moved from Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Again as mentioned in Decem ber in the Throne Sp eech Debate, Mr. Speaker, Grey Goose was purchased by Laid law Transportation. The head office of Grey Goose and all the employees are still in Manitoba and Winnip eg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I also wanted to refer to that particu lar pamphlet and ask the Min ister whether it's true that the Tribune, Swifts, Transair, Massey-Ferguson and other businesses have closed in Manitoba during the Conservative Administration's term in office? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the Tribune closed, the Sun is here, we have been replaced very ... ; Swifts have closed , Centennial Packers have opened, Mr. Speaker; Transair was purchased by PWA and have more employees in Manitoba than they had previously. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, I can't hear myself through the applause of the Government House on news that the Tribune had cl osed. I'd like to ask the Minister if he can confirm a statement by Howard Pawley that since 1977 the rate of growth in Manitoba is not even 30 percent of the national growth rate; can he confirm that, in fact, is true? I'm not paid ACTRA like the Member for Dauphin is. MR. JOHNSTON: As always, Mr. Speaker, I take those questions of figures that are pulled out of the air as noti ce. I will have th em examined and answered tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Me mber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd also like to ask the Minister what good news he can come up with for bankruptcies. Our pamphlet clearly indicates that bankruptcies are up almost 50 percent; does he have any good news to counter that? MR. JOHNSTON: As explained, Mr. Speaker, the bankrupt cies in Manitoba per 10 ,000 businesses, 1336

Thursday, 5 March 1981 that's the only way you can look at it, is fifth in Canada. We are fifth in Canada, we are not the lowest but for 10 ,000 busine sses we stand 42 percent which is fifth in Canada, the same as B.C., Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Mr. Sp eaker, so the Minis ter is confirming that. I would also ask him whether he can confirm that the Chimo company in Selkirk went bankrupt yesterday? MR. JOHNSTON: I haven't been aware of that as yet, Mr. Speaker, but I would only announce that we don't like to have these bankruptcies in Manitoba and we will take a look at it very closely.

We're very proud of the fact that Griffin Steel in Transcona constituency which I would have thought the Member for Transcona would have known about are spending in excess of $10 million on an expansion , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired; before we proceed with Orders of the Day I should like to announce to the House that I have had a request from the Honourable Leader of the Opposition for a change in seating plan.

I would like to have a meeting with the Opposition Hous e Leader and the Go vernment House Leader to discuss changes in the seating plan for the rest of the session. Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, firstly, let me indicate the Comm ittee on Statutory Orders and Regulations will meet on Tuesday morning at 10 :00 a.m. to further consider their report on the Constitutional hearings and would meet again on Thursday morning at 10:00 a.m. if necessary. Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment; and the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie in the Chair for Labour and Manpower. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G.

Hyde (Portage la Prairie): 3.(d) (1 )(a) - pass; 3. (d)(1 )(b) - the Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Again, just the expenditures when we have an opportunity. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) (1) (

b) the Honourable Minister. pass; 3.(d) (2)(a) - HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Emplo yment Support and Counselling Service. The objectives of the Employment Support and Counselling Services Program is to enable special needs individuals and northerners to take advantage of emp loyment opportunities and to provide summer employment opportunities for northern youth. The Employment Sup port and Couns elling unit provides a flexible manpower service including counselling, referral and relocation programs in co-ope ration with other agencies.

Cu rrently three location programs are being admin istered in conjunction with northern mining emp loyers. The northern youth corps component provides summer employment for youth in northern communities where other agencies are not involved. The program provides wage subsidies for youth employment on community improvement projects. A review of procedures for the relocation programs has recently occurred to review and develop greater consi stency between programs and to allow for greater liaison with Canada Employment Centres in the north.

Efforts have been undertaken to increase relocation numb ers through discussions with Mines. One project has, via formal agreement, endeavoured to double numb ers reloca ted . A job readiness training program has been piloted to assist in ensurin g su ccessful reloca ti ons. Su rveys and evaluations have been undertaken to determ ine program effectiveness for both the relocation program and the Northern Youth Program. With respect to staffing, there were 27 staff man years in 198 0-8 1; we're requesting 28 staff man years for the coming year, an additional one.

The additional one will be added to the Thompson office to perform administrative management functions within the Empl oyment Counselling and Support Program areas. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) (2)(a) - pass - the Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: While we 're on the generalities of the subject, I wonder if the Minister could explain the no-sum item either last year or this year and why it's there. (I nterje ction)- Well, there's an item here with no dollars on it. Could you explain that? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, it's a technical thing.

There is 80 percent in Northern Affairs, you know, that Northern Affairs runs the Northlands Agreement and we utilize funding within it and 20 percent is in the Department of Finance Enabling Vote. The member may recall last year the Finance kept a portion as an Enabling Vote and gave the Department of Northern Affairs X-amount for each departmental project. Now if I can explain that Northern Affairs has the entire Northern Agreement, and I require a portion of it; Resources requires a portion of it; everybody requires a portion of it. it's in their Vote, in their Estimates.

I can assure the member that funds are there. If he wishes, we will scurry in a hurry and find out what there was last year and what there is this year, just so you'll know what kind of money we're spending out of Northern Affairs Budget this year for that program. I'll get those figures for you. If I can get it in the book. The $992,600, does the member see that figure there, on Page 86, halfway 1337

Thursday, 5 March 1981 down in the

section we're dealing with. $992,600. This year, there's $1,1 14 ,300. MR. RONALD McBRVDE: I'm still not completely clear. Some of the other departments that we dealt with already had the figures from The Northern Development Agreement within their Estimates. I guess some do and some don't. I wonder if the Minister's staff is aware who does and who doesn't MR. MacMASTER: I'm advised everything that is in Northlands is in Northern Affairs. Now, I don't know what the other departments have done. MR. McBRVD E: So to make it clear, Mr.

Chair person, the amount here of $1,1 14 ,000 is money that the Minister is going to spend this year, plus 20 percent and that amount will appear in the Nor thern Af fairs Es tima tes, 80 percent of th at amount. MR. MacMASTER: Northern Affairs will have 80 and the Department of Finance has 20. MR. McBRVDE: Mr. Chairperson, I wonder if the Min ister could explain this amount under The Northern Devel opment Agreement when the agreement expired, for this fiscal year. How can we have an amount here from an agreement that is no longer in existence? MR.

MacMASTER: I've attempted to explain that on several occasions, I hope successfully. We are in the midst of negotiating a new agreement and because time limits are what they are, and precisely the question of the Member for The Pas, the front and centre issue for today that we're trying to resolve with the federal people is that whatever agreement they eventually come up with retroactivity is in fact a real part of a new agreement.

I can't second-guess what the outcome of those discussions will be but if I would tend to believe that the Federal Government is reasonably sincere in their negotitions, I know we certainly are. If in fact we are, both parties are, and we see that time limits are being what they are, then we should agree that be it five weeks from now or four weeks from now, hopefully sooner, but whenever the case may be that in fact retroactivity is the real thing.

You to that with union contracts on many, many, many occasions when the deadlines facing you and you both agree that there's going to be an agreement, there's no question, then retroactivity and an extension over the date is, in a lot of cases, quite acceptable to both parties. MR. McBRVDE: I wonder if the Min ister could outline what role he and his department have in those particular negotiations, or if he could give me some idea of the key people responsible for carrying that out in terms of departments and responsibilities and what role his department has within that. MR.

MacMAS TER: Our programming has, as the Member for The Pas knows it and as I know it and as we go through our Estimates, have all been placed in my eyesight as pretty high priorities; I'm sure the other Ministers have established the same. it's NorttJ!'lrn Affairs themselves that are doing the negotiating. MR. McBRVDE: Yes. I wonder if the Minister could indicate how long he and the Provincial Government thought it would take to negotiate a new agreement. MR. MacMASTER: There's really no answer to that particular question.

Discussions have been taking place for a good period of time and I don't know how many months that's been. You're always hopeful when you start negotiations looking forward to the expiry of something that you're going to have them negotia ted in time; that's the objective of the exercise. lt doesn't always take place. MR. McBRVDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson.

I guess this is one of the areas where, in my point of view, and it applies to when the Minister had responsibilities for the Northlands Agreement, that everyone knew the expiry date of the existing agreement People should have known that such negotiations with the Federal Go vernment takes a long time and yet the seriousness and the full preparation and the full negotiations I don't think really got under way till last fall, which doesn't leave enough time to carry out this agreement, to carry out the negotiations for the establishment of the agreement; an agreement, Mr.

Chai rperson, that's very impo rtant to No rthern Manitoba in terms of getting those cost-shared dollars for the development of the north and for the employment and training that's necessary up north. This is one area wher e this Min ister and the government have fallen down in terms of their responsibility and their planning and getting things done. MR. MacMASTER: I think we'll wait for the outcome of the agreement to determine whether my determine whether my department or myself or the government has fallen down.

I would respectfully suggest that the Member for The Pas should wait, if he will, to see the final outcome of the agreement and he may find qu ietly within himself that he's pleased with the contents of the agreement, or at that particular time, if there's something that isn't there that he wishes was there or there's things that's in it which he doesn't think should be in it, then of course it's his right, as it is today if he wishes, to chastise the contents of the agreement. MR. DEPUTY CHA IRMAN: The Member for the Pas. MR. McBRVDE: Yes, Mr.

Chai rperson, I wasn't talking about the contents of the agreement, I was talking about when it's going to be agreed to and when it's going to be signed and when the province can have the guarant ee of the fundin g that's necessary for this program. it's March , Mr. Chairperson, and the fiscal year starts pretty soon; I'm pleased that the Minister is optimistic that they might have an agreement pretty soon. I guess my experience with the Federal Government says that he's probably overly optimistic; my experience with these kind of negotiations says that he is probably overly optimistic.

That's why I believe that the work necessary for the new agreement should have been started long before it was to ensure that the north isn't deprived of this important program. That's all my general comments on that MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. 1338

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. JAY COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr . Chairp erson. The Mi ni ster ind icated in his opening remarks that this department was involved in programs that were providing employment opportun itie s or at least outlining and trying to assist in the gaining of emplo yment opportuniti es for special needs northerners. I wonder i! he could be more explicit at to what target group this program is being di rected towards. MR. MacMASTER: Mem bers of the northern communit ies. all persons that live within them. MR.

COWAN: The Mi nister also said that surveys and evaluations have been done during the last year on the three programs. Is he able to provide us with copies of those surveys and evaluations. MR. MacMASTER: They are being undertaken, I don't know whether my words were that they have been done, like finished; we're undertaking su rveys and evaluations.

When they are com plete, the same as the material that I promis ed the member a year ago and I know how he lik es those reports and surveys, we have foll owed up with what we've said; when we have com pleted our surveys and our evaluations there will be no hesitation of forwarding them to the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Well, how far along in the process are these evaluations currently? Can the Mini ster give us some indication of when he would expect to see those surveys compl eted?

I know as much as I like to see them he doesn't like to give us dates because it's, from time to ti me, not possible to comply to expectat ions. However, he could provide us with some general idea, another month or another year or six months. MR. MacMASTER: Sometime in the next thr ee or four months I hope to have certainly enough put together to make it meaningful. MR. COWAN: But currently these programs are part of the programs that are being negotiated under the new negotiations for the Northlands Agreement; is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR.

COWAN: The Mi nister ind icates that is correct, however, at this time they don't have the surveys and evaluations done. Is the Mi ni ster satisfied that these programs are in fact fulfilling their purpose and for that reason should be made a continuing part of the negotiations? Does he have statistics or data which would support that? MR. MacMASTER: I don't think we'll find the Northlands Agr eement is sign ed without th ese programs in it. MR. COWAN: I'm cer tainly not suggesting that it shoul d not be sig ned without th ese programs.

However, I would ask the Min ister if he has some data which can be appl ied to test the effectness of th ese programs at present becaus e th ey are currently being negotiated, and one would think if one was doing a number of surveys and evaluations that one could do it for two reasons.

One, would be to im prove the program and that is certainly an alternativ e; but the other would be to test th e effectiveness of the program so that when going into negotiations if any changes were necessary, they would be able to come forward with those changes during the negotiation process and they would be able to come forward with data which would support the need for any possible changes, and that to me would appear to make the negotiation process that much easier.

So I would have expected that the surveys and the evaluations would have been done already and would have been made a part of the n&gotiating process. The question to the Min ister is, why is that not the case? MR. MacMASTER: I suppose it depends on what you think you need to arm yourself with when you go to the negotiating table and how receptive those across the table are to the particular proposal that you're talking about. I've tried to tell the member without getting into any great details that I don't think there'll be a new Northlands Agreement signed without these in them.

So what he can gather from that is that I'm adamant enough, convinced enough and so are the people on the other side of the table, I don't see any problems with these particular programs being renegotiated and implan ted in the new agreement. MR. COWAN: Can the Min ister indicate how many persons, how many individuals were part of this program during the last year and if we could have comparative figu res for the year previous it would be beneficial as well? MR.

MacMASTER: In the year 19 77 there was 45; in the year '1 978 and this is ending March 31 st the fiscal year there was 57; in the year ending March 31, 19 79 there was 81; in the year ending March 31, 19 80 there was 136 and as of January 1s t, it's obvious I can't give you March 31s t yet, but as of January 1s t past, there was 18 4. MR. COWAN: That's a significant in crease in the number of total participants in all thr ee programs. Does the Min ister have that broken down into specifics for the three individual programs that he had mentioned earlier? MR.

MacMASTER: In the last year there was, up to January 1s t; 63 in Leaf Rapids; 98 in Flin Flon and that's one we made reference to where there was a doubling up, negotia tions took place, and 23 in Thompson. MR. COWAN: Will you be talking specifically to the Tawow Program in Leaf Rapids? Is that correct? And the Huds on Bay Min ing and Smelting effort at relocation into Flin Flon and Thompson's efforts? Why does Thompson appear to be so far behind in respect to participation in this program?

Has the Mi nister had conversations with lnco there and I would assume, he may correct me, I'd assume that we'r e dealing only with ln co in respect to the program and if so, can he advise us as to what action he has taken to encourage them to become what would appear to be greater participants or a need to be gr eater participants in the program? MR. MacMASTER: There's no action taken by myself in relationship to either one of the thr ee for 1339

Thursday, 5 March 1981 pretty real reasons. lt appears that in the Leaf Rapids-Fiin Flon situation every person that comes out of the communities seems to be involved in a program; in the Thompson situation you sometimes find a program such as this and it's either ideal or not, whatever side you're looking at; but the people that are coming through the program are themselves setting examples for many many others who come in on their own.

I'm informed that there are a large number of people coming in from the outlying areas into the commun ity of Thompson who are going directly to the employment office who, in fact, are getting themselves employed and who, in fact, have very little interest, if any at all, in the particular program that's in place there. MR. COWAN: Does the Minister have any statistics to substantiate that information?

In other words, one would have to look at the numb er of persons from the outlying communities as a percentage of the total work force and, if indeed, it was a case that Thompson had a percentage that was near to, equal to or greater than the other percentages, that assumption could be accepted.

However, without that information it's difficult to be able to make an assessment, so I would hope the Minister would be able to provide us with specific details as to the percentage that those persons who are relocating from the different communities in Northern Manitoba occupy in the three different workplaces which he has mentioned previously. MR. MacMASTER : No, ha ven't got that percentage and we've been sort of through this and around this a couple of times before. I don't think there should be percentages of work forces as it relates to any particular nationality. MR.

COWAN: We're not asking the Minister for a quota in this respect, although I certainly wouldn't rule out quotas as being a mechanism that can be utilized from time to time, as the Minister has done, and we've had that discussion, as he says, on different occasions and we 'll probably have it on other occasions. What I'm asking specifically for is an analysis of the work force, not to superimpose criteria or goal on the employer, but as a check of the program.

We have three programs, one which, with a large work force providing 98 participants in this program; the other which, with a smaller work force, providing 63; and in Thompson, with what is either the greatest or the second largest work force, providing only 23 participants to the program. There is a discrepancy there. The Minister tells us that discrepancy is perfectly acceptable to him because he has been informed that there have been a number of persons going directly into the work force. What I asked him for was some substantiation of that information.

The other question of course, is who has made that information available to him? MR. MacMASTER: I've gathered that information myself. If you walk the streets of Thompson and talk to enough people, people themselves from other national ities and from other backgrou nds, in conversations I've had, tell me how they became employed with International Nickel. MR.

COWAN: So the Minister is saying that he has not been informed per se by any outside party, but he has made an assumption on the basis of his own observations which are, he's telling us, an on-the street canvas in respect to the number of persons which are informed. it's a very informal mechanism and perhaps it is a mechanism which would be substantiated by a formal mechanism, but I would suggest that it is not the type of survey or evaluation upon which major decisions should be made and based, and major statements should be made.

The statement was that there is no need for a greater participation in the program in Thompson, because there are other mechanisms at work that are fulfilling the need of this program. Now, I'm not certain that that's the case. The Minister told me it was the case a few minutes ago and upon further questioning, I'm not certain that the Minister can be certain that that is the case because he just doesn't have the evidence available to him if he's basing his decision on subjective conversations that are held on street corners and in cafes; it's not a proper methodology.

I don't see how he can support, or attempt to change a program in Thompson, if he's not going to be more detailed in his investigations. The program in Leaf Rapids, the Tawow Program is run - well perhaps I should phrase that question differently. I understand that these program goals are run differently in the different areas, perhaps the Minister can indicate a general outline of the program in Leaf Rapids; a general outline of the program in Flin Flon and a general outline of the program in Thompson.

By general outline I would mean who is involved in funding the program; what is their percentage of funds available; who is administering the program and what other agencies and persons are involved in the administration of this particular program in those three different areas? MR. MacMASTER: Well there are an awful lot of questions and an awful lot of detail that the member is asking.

Generally speaking, all three of them work in conjunction with the mining companies; they make field trips; they do some pre-employment counselling; they couns el the people once they are into the centres on budgeting and setting up a house or a home or apartment, whatever the case may be; they have alcohol cou ncillo rs, if that requirement is necessary. Each one of the companies has a person specifically employed to concern themselves about the on-t he-work problems that sometimes arise when you are dealing with these programs, by and large, that's generally the way that it works.

If the member has a specific sort of question relating to any any one of them I would try and get that specific answer. MR. COWAN: Perhaps it is unfair to bundle a whole series of qUestions together like that arid expect the answers so we can go through it one by one. Can the Minister indicate who is employed in the three communities under this particular funding, not by names, but by positions? In other words, in Leaf Rapids what positions are provided for by funding for this particular item? MR.

MacMASTER: In Flin Flon there are three relo cation councillors and a home advisor; in Thompson there is a two home advisors and two relocation council lors; in Leaf Rapids there is a manager who does other things, and a home advisor 1340

Thursday, 5 March 1981 and two relocation councillors, so by and large there are similar numbers in each area. MR. COWAN: I apologize I was trying to mark those numbers down as the ... MR. MacMASTER: Four in each, generally speaking two home advisors and two councillors in each area, in each particular community. MR.

COWAN: And the four that are in Leaf Rapids are dealing with 63 persons which is a client relationship of 15 approximately or 16 ; the ones in Flin Flon are dealing with approximately 25 each and the ones in Thom pson are dealing with approximately only six each if my quick arithmetic is accurate. lt is not always accurate but I think that would give an idea of the discrepancies as to the number of clients per individual in those different communities. I would like the Minister to comment on that discrepancy which is wide-rang ing and appears to be one which would deserve some comment. MR.

MacMASTER: Again we know in the Thompson situation that they are in fact dealing with others who are not in the entire program but friends of friends of people that are in the program; example, a couple may say well we know we're doing fine, you've helped us through this tough spot but we do have some friends across town who need a little bit, particularly. Well the alcohol problem is a problem I think in all areas and in all three communities we think we're having a great deal of success.

The AFM is working very closely with us and there is a lot of counselling done through them and a lot of referrals back and forth. We think that we're doing well in that particular area. MR. COWAN: I'm certain there are referrals in Thompson, but I'm just as certain that the referrals are the same nature in Flin Flon and that there are a lesser number of referrals due to the population base but still a number of referrals of the same nature in Leaf Rapids.

So that does not explain away what is an obvious discrepancy and I would ask the Minister if he can be more explicit as to any justification for that sort of, a different client-employee relationship. MR. MacMASTER: Well, I've tried to explain and the member obviously doesn't want the explanation or wants another one. Everybody seems to come through the programs in the other two areas and all the people in the north do not seem to come through the program in Thompson; now that's good or that's bad.

Now talking to one of the Metis and treaty friends I have in Thompson, some of them feel that it's working just fine. They can always call on our . people to go see their friends and that seems to be working well. I just want the thing to work and it seems to be working well in slightly different ways in all communities and I don't know whether we should regimentalize the thing; I think we discussed this last year, so it to be precisely the same in each community.

You have to take into account the flow of people and the desires of people and the needs of people and it's diffic ult to precisely say that everybody needs this per type service. MR. COWAN: Is there any other funding which supplements this particular service? In other words are there any subsidies made available to companies for persons who are involved in these specific programs? MR. MacMASTER: No, I don't know what the next question is because it seems to me the member's leading to something. I know of no funding going to any company if that's the last question? MR.

COWAN: Well, the next question was and the Minis ter is absolutely right I was leading to something. The next question would be; if there was funding then one could see a reason for different com panies pushing more people th rough the program because it provided a subsidy to them but if there is not it still doesn't explain the discrepancy now and the Min ister says I don't want the explanation. I certainly do want the explanation, I just don't accept his explanation, that's the crux of the matter and I am not certain I'm going to get a different explanation from the Minister.

There may be different explanations available but I'm not certain that I'm going to get it from the Minister. I would ask the Minister if his staff can provide him with specific statistics as to the number of field trips which were made through the different offices. MR. DEPUTY CH AIRMAN, Jim Gal braith (Dauphin): The Honourable Minister. MR. MacM ASTER: I'll try and get that, Mr. Chairman, I don't have that precise thing at hand. MR. COWAN: That is an important statistic and would hope that he would be able to come back to us with it fairly shortly.

I travel a fair amount through the different communities and I know I see in a numb er of communities the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting poster - they have a poster which is part of this program or part of the relocation program I would imagine and you see it all over the place - you see it in the Island Lake area; you see it in the northern areas; I don't if there is a reserve community or a Metis community that I have been to that I haven't seen that particular poster. Now that's an outreach mechanism which is probably one of the reasons for them being able to have 98 people participating in that program.

I also know that they go out and they do some counseling right on the reserve before having people come through that program. The question of course is, why are they pursuing this program in such an active way, and it appears on a per capita basis or on a per worker basis that Sherritt-Gordon Mines would be doing the same and yet lnco in Thompson does not appear to be participating in the program as fully? I don't know if it's a question the Minister can answer.

I don't know if it's a problem with the corporation or if it's a problem with the office there but I think that there is a discrepancy there that has to be addressed. I would hope that the Mi nister would be able to find out if in fact the percentage figures of the lnco operation in Thompson compare favourably to the percentage figures of Flin Flon, the percentage figures of Sherritt-Gordo n and Leaf Rapids because that's the test. This program has been designed, if I understand the program correct ly, to provide sup port mechanisms for special needs northerners; and by 1341

Thursday, 5 March 1981 special needs northerner I'd imagine we're talking about no rtherner s who have not had the opportunities that many people have had to gain access to the labour force and access to jobs, so this program is designed to provide supp ort mechanisms for them.

If they are in fact getting that access to the jobs without the program, then that is one matter and one could un derstand what is happening in Thompson and one would only have to question whether or not a couple of those persons from Thompson should be relocated to where the workload is obviously heavier - that's a decision the Minister has to make and the department has to make - but if in fact the statistics do not indicate that lnco is providing that access through other programs; or is providing opportunity through other programs; or through just a general difference in philosophy, tactics and mechanisms, then one has to question this program in that area and one has to question the corporation and that's a point to which I am trying to direct my remarks; that the low number of participants in that area would seem to me to necessitate surveys and evaluations that would indicate whether or not the goals of this program are being accomplished outside of the program; and the Minister has been unable to come forward with that sort of information.

I would hope that they would be a part of the surveys and evaluations and I guess this will be the appropriate point to ask the Min ister if he can indicate if in fact those sorts of percentage analysis are being undertaken in the surveys and evaluations which he said should be ready in a quarter of a year or so. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde: The Honourable Minister. MR.

MacMASTER: From what I know of the surveys and evaluations taking place, we're talking about the satisfaction of people that are employed, those that are relocated, what dissatisfactions they may have, what ideas they would have to make the program work better, how they are reacting to the transition, a lot of that is day by day, you just gather it and get it. The retention rate over a period of time I think is important. We believe that knowing the clientele reasonably wel l, the retention rate is reasonably good.

We want to define that so we can spell it out just how well we are doing on a long term on a retention basis. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, does the Minister have figures that show what com muni ti es these people are coming from that are involved in the relocation programs for the Thompson one, for the Flin Flon and the Leaf Rapids program? MR. MacMASTER: South Indian Lake, Crane River, Cross Lake. MR. McBRYDE: Do you have numbers of those, like for the Flin Flon project? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, but what happens is we keep running into them later.

If you want me to try and gather up some of them, I could. I can give you the commun itie s now and I'll try and get the numbers from them. We'll just add them up and give them to you but if you want the names of the communities now, I can give them to you and then we'll add all the South Indian Lake ones, all the Cross Lake ones, Granville Lake, Nelson House, Brochet, Pukatawagan, Cormorant, Pine Dock, Duck Bay - I'm looking for new names - Mafeking, Moose Lake. We even have one from Leaf Rapids to Thompson. I don't know whether the Member for Chur chi ll likes that.

Norway House, Fisher River, Barrows, Camp erville, Grand Rapids, Pequis, Mallard, we even have one from Winni peg that went north. Yes, we have a couple from The Pas, another one from The Pas, another one from The Pas, Barrows, Waterhen, Winnip egosis, Dallas, Hodgson, Grand Rapids - I think I said that before - Crane River, Mafeking, Fisher River, Wanless - that's one I hadn't said before. Okay. Gods Narrows, llford, Swan Lake, Thicket Portage, Shamattawa, Herring Bay and we'll get you some totals. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, what would be useful is like for each of the three projects, where are they drawing people from and the other of course important statistic and I don't think the Minister indicated this when he gave the general statistics, like out of the 23 people that came into the Thompson project, where were they from and how long did they stay or are they still there? Is that 23 of the people that are still there and there was 60 came in initially?

I think the Minister is well aware and I'm not trying to be critical in this one regard, that there is going to be a certain number of people that don't stay in the urban centre, they go back to their own communities and that was unde rstood when the program started. I know when Tawow was first under way there was a pretty detailed breakdown in terms of who came, who left and even some follow-up interviews as to why they left and why they didn't stay with the particular program, and that kind of information would be very useful if it can be readily put available by the Minister's staff.

I suppose it would be useful while we're discussing it. Another question for the Minister, I think he gave my colleague some breakdown as to the staff. Initially the projects were fairly separate projects, in fact not considered sort of regular staff positions when these programs started out, at the time in Thompson, for example, there was a contract with the Th ompson region of the Manitoba Metis Federation to deliver this service. I wonder if the Minister could just bring me up-to-date in terms of the admin ist rative struc tur e for the relocation programs, the three relocation programs. MR.

MacMASTER: I'm not sure if I understand the member's question. I gave the titles of those in the various areas. Yes, we still have an agreement with the Metis Federation in Thompson. That's two parts to probably a three or four part question if he could be more specific about the other portion. MR. McBRYDE: What I was interested in was in fact what was happening at Thomp son with that particular agreement. The other part of it, I'm not as familiar with the Flin Flon arrangement as I am with the other two although it was being negotiated at the 1342

Thursday, 5 March 1981 time of the change in government or just getting under way at that time, I wonder if the Minister could indicate, for example, in the Tawaw project does the Sherritt-Gordon provide certain amount of staff time or do they have a full-time person related to the project; the same with Thompson, does lnco have somebody assigned to work with this project? At Flin Flon what is the company's obligation in terms of making sure this project works in terms of staff time?

Then how do these relate administratively to each other; people th at are em ployed by the company but assisting with the program; and people that are employed by the province that are working on the program; how do they relate to each other administratively? MR. MacMASTER: I'd mentioned it before, I guess maybe the Member for The Pas didn't hear it, but each company has a specific person hired to deal with basically on the job but certainly works very closely with our staff off the job; each company has a specific person hired now working for them. That was not the case at one time.

I think the member would concur when he was involved with this that that was part of the problem. We like to believe we're improving on it. That certainly was a need that was found wanti ng, was somebody specifically assigned with some authority by the companies to work with these people on the job, to make sure that frustration didn't get to the point on the job where they were quitting because of not being familiar or whatever with their workplaces. MR. McBRYDE: Yes.

One of the problems that was encountered by the program was the on-site foreman for people that come from the more remote commun ities to work in the urban centres in the mining industry; I wonder if there's still ongoing programs or whether that's still a problem area.· There was a little bit of work done in terms of training on-line supervisors. I wonder if any of the compan ies in these th ree projects are st ill undertaking that or whether it's left to see what happens when somebody ends up under a particular foreman or how it works out. MR.

MacMASTER: I know that the word from all three companies is that the programs are there, they're real, they're to be worked with, they're to be accept ed, the program, that there is to be no problems with the employees under this program. The individual in each case, with each company, I don't know where his direct line is, but I know it's past the foreman and the general foreman in the mines, he has a great deal of authority. We have not encoun tered in the last few months, to my knowledge, any on-site problem with a particular · foreman.

I know exacly what the member is saying; it doesn't have to be an Indian or a Metis person; there are people in the supervisory capacities in society who are less than understanding towards all kinds of nationalities. We've watched that pretty closely and we think, well it's past the point of thinking, we know that the three people who are working for those companies have a great deal of autho rity.

We jus t haven't had that on- the-j ob problem that I think the member is referring to and I can agree that those problems are created in some employment conditions and situations in our country but we just haven't had a specific problem brought to our attention. These people on the job have pretty good access and they're constantly being talked to by the on-the-job fellow, our off-the-job people are the on-the-job gentlemen and fellows and the women work well together and we don't think that problem exists. MR. McBRYDE: Yes.

On the same line I think the Minister is aware and I've mentioned this before when this type of employment project was first starting out, not in the form we have now but even earlier in the late Sixties. I'm sure the Minister would be aware of that time. One of the follow-up studies in Thompson that traced the people that had stayed and people that had left at lnco, at Thompson, found that most of the ones that stayed happen to work for the same foreman. lt was quite easy to trace to fact that that foreman was willing to work with them in an effective way that lead to their staying on the job;

whereas people that were less fortunate ended up with a different person in charge of them as supervisors didn't stay with the job with lnco at Thompson and that came out of the very early days of the study. I know that when we had the program set up there was some effort being made at Leaf Rapids by the company where they were negotiating to do some training of their foremen in terms of their attitudes and approach to dealing with people, especially people from the remote communities.

I'm not sure, I can't recall whether those programs that they were talking about ever were carried out and whether they were effective or not, in terms of helping to assist those people to use a more positive approach in dealing with the new workers from the remote areas. I wonder if the Minister has any comment on those. MR. MacMASTER: No more than I've said. MR. McBRYDE: Okay. First of all, that'll be my first question then, is it a signed formal agreement with the Thompson region of the MMF? MR. MacMASTER: Yes it is. MR.

McBRYDE: Who exactly, within the department, negotiates that agreement and with whom do they negotiate and who are the signatories of that particular agreement? MR. MacMASTER: The staff within my department worked on it. My signature is on it. MR. McBRYDE: Yes. What is the administrative structure for ensuring that it's carried out, short of the checking of the contract, checking that the MMF Thompson region is doing its job as agreed to by contract. Where does that responsibili ty lie for making sure that the full conditions of the contract are met? MR. MacMASTER: With the office in Thompson. MR.

McBRYDE: Could the Min ister be more specific? Would the Manpower office in Thompson oversee it? What level of supervision, what would be the position level of the person that's responsible to see that the agreement is carried out? 1343

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. MacMASTER: Well, the people with the Relocation Program in Thompson work very close with the Manitoba Metis Federation in Thompson. I have had absolutely no complaint, or my staff hasn't had any problem with good cooperation with the particular group there. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, I apologize for not making a note of the exact figures that Minister gave. In the contracted positions, in the contract with the Metis Federation, how many positions are there and what are exactly those functions? MR.

Mac MASTER: Ther e are two people and they're relocation counsellors, that's what the MMF calls them. MR. McBRYDE: There are two persons who are relocation counselors. Could the Minister indicate the exact yearly amount of that agreement? MR. MacMASTER: I'm guessing at the figure. I can get that fur ther on, but I think it's in the neighbourhood of $55,000.00. MR. McBRYDE: I'm assuming th en, Mr . Cha irperson , th at there is probably some administrative funds in that as well as the salaries of the relocation people. MR.

MacMASTER: Yes, certainly the bulk of it's for their salaries and some of their administration costs. I can't just remember the details of it, but I think a bit of it's for their own office overhead. MR. McBRYDE: I guess there's, in my mind, Mr.

Chairperson, considerable curiosity in terms of the Minister's attitude and approach to the Manitoba Metis Federation and the Conservative Government's attitude and approach to the Ma nitoba Me tis Federation where, in fact, they've cut funding for the Corps Program for the Manitoba Metis Federation, I think largely under this Minister's initiative through the Minister of Northern Affairs. They've cut also, Mr. Chairperson, the education funding for the Manitoba Metis Federation.

I believe then that this would be the only program that has any connection with the Manitoba Metis Federation that is still funded by the Province of Manitoba; that Manitoba has reneged on any obligations to the organization except for this particular contract, which for some strange reason happens to be in the Minister's own constituenc y. All other assistance funding support for the Manitoba Federation has been done away with, pretty well entirely for political reasons by the Conservative Government.

I just can't understand how this one has been able to survive when all the other programs have been done away with. I wonder what Mr. Mclvor's had to do at Thompson in order to ensure this survival; what he's had to do for the Minister; or if he's had to buy a Conservative membership card; or how he's managed to ensure that the program survived when all the other programs of the Metis Federation are being cut off by this government. So that's the speculation that makes me very curious as to the survival of this one particular program.

The other part of this item is the Northern Youth Emp loyment under The Northlands Agreement and I wonder if the Minister could outline for us some detail in terms of this program, it's function, it's staffing, etc. MR. MacMASTER: While they'r e digging for a descri ption of that, I should clarify the record, because the member was less than accurate in some of your previous statements. There is more money going to Metis people for education funding today than there ever was in the past.

The way it was originally set up, and the figures are rough, there was $20,000 going towards scholarships to help needy Metis children by the MMF and there was $40,000 used by them to administer the program. I believe there is $40,000 or $50,000 -and I don't have those figures - going straight into scholarship funding for the young people in the Metis communities.

I would wish that the Member for The Pas, who has an obvious and I think a reasonably real interest in assisting people within his constituency, a lot of which are Metis and Treaty people, would have a look at the actual funding that is now going towards that very worthy cause. There is more funding now act ually going to help young people in their scholarships and their educational funding than there ever was before. That's the first point.

Second point; the program itself in Thompson, the relocation program, is working very well and that's why it is still working. lt has nothing to do with whether Mclvor is an ND Per, which he's been I understand most of his life, even though he might not have agreed with the Member for The Pas when he was Minister of Northern Affairs, I suppose he had lots of people who didn't agree with him. But nevertheless, he is do ing a reasonable job; his people are doing a reasonable job in there; they're working hard at it. it's a very meaningful program and I think it's working very well.

On the Job Creation Program for the youth in remote commu nities, we asked that projects be established which offer opportunities for students to gain meaningful work experience. They're working on a whole host, a variety of things, home repair service for the elderly; they assist with minor construcion projects; they participate in community public works projects; they are the types that are funded under this program. In '79 there was, so the member can have the comparison, 38 projects; in 1980, there was 49 projects. In '79 there was 252 students; last year there was 303 students.

The supervisory type, and I'm sure the Member for Tile Pas is familiar with how that fits in, there was 28 in 19 79; in 19 80, there was 36 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, I know that the Minister, in his earlier comments, was very careful to use the words "the funding going to the Metis people", because thete's no way that he can argue with the fact that the funding has been cut for the organization that represents the Metis people, the Manitoba Metis Federation.

I know that he doesn't want to deal with whether that decision was a political decision or was based somehow on how the funds were spent or the organization and administration of those funds, which is clearly not the case. I don't think at this time I'll get into a long argument with the Mini ster in terms of the development, in terms of Metis people and Native people in Manitoba under this government and what has happened to that kind of assistance. That's quite 1344

Thursday, 5 March 1981 a long su bject for this particular item under discussion. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairperson, it st ill makes me very curious as to how one particular operation managed to continue when we have seen this government's attitude and approach to the organization in general.

In terms of the No rthern Youth Emplo yment Program the Min ister mentioned 49 projects ---' I'm assuming that these are all summer projects - and since there are 49 projects I wonder if the Minister could just bring me up-to-date in terms of whether th e Federal Go vernment st ill ha s some youth employment projects in place, for reserves especially; and in 49, that means that most of the nontreaty communities would be covered by a program and I don't think I'll get the Minister to list all 49.

Maybe he could tell me which communities didn't have the project. lt might be quicker than telling me which ones did have the project. But if he answers the question in terms of Indian bands, whether there is an Indian Affairs or Federal Government program for the bands, a similar program then I'll get a better idea in terms of what communities were not covered. MR. MacMASTER: Yes, the Federal Government had a fairly extensive program going, similar to ours last year. I think they've had one for several years. I don't remember exactly when theirs started but they did in fact have one last year. MR.

McBRYDE: The figure then that the Minister used of 49 projects, I'm assuming then that if we're talking about within the Northern Affairs area and if there are any outside the Northern Affairs area, then the Minister could tell me. I'm assuming that just about every single community was covered, even the fairly small communities, that a project of some kind or other, small communities like Dauphin River or. Mallard, probably those com munities, that nearly every non-treaty community and remote community receive this program. What was I going to say now? Were some of these projects within the more urban centres?

Did the Thompson, The Pas, have these projects last year and what was the nature of them if they were? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Snow Lake had one; the Town of The Pas had one. Those are the only two major centres I've seen to date. The Pas had two, that's within the town. Lynn Lake, the LOO of Lynn Lake, the Town of Leaf Rapids, yes, Thompson had one, Wabowden, the LOO of Churchill; so Churchill, Leaf, Lynn, The Pas and Thompson. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, I wonder if the Minister has in his book there any detail in terms of the urban programs, what they were, the projects? MR. MacMaster: Just generalize what they were?

Repairing recreation facilities and senior citizens homes; dismantling old community halls; working on park and playground development; clearing public reserve areas; constructing road signs; playground equipment; clearing park area; repairs to hall and chu rch and pensioner assista nce; repair to commun ity halls and groundwork; rennovate old school for drop-in centre; brush community hall and office property; paint buildi ngs; construct outdoor facility; park development; picnic shelters; painted the rink; construction at a concession; beachwork; construct log playground equipment; fence cemetery; operate communi ty snack stands ; park and greenhouse development; church repairs; repair senior citizens' homes; repair community halls, tot lots; again recreation commu nity rink, hall, ball parks, senior cit izens; painting assistance to elderlies; cemetery repairs, maintenance; supervise a beach area; church repairs; seeding a particular area.

I'm trying to find some different ones. Most of the rest are just - construct garbage stands; work in an arena; work experience with the fire department, the police department; assisting the elderly and the handi capped; cutting firewood; fenc ing elderly citizens homes; fire hall repair; reserve profiles Data collection; backstops, community clean-up; working around the nursing station. That is generally, I think . . . In Churchill they had a tourist information booth and library work. So that's by and large the list. MR.

McBRYDE: Yes, before the Minister puts his list away, one that sounds interesting was working for the fire department and the police force. I wonder if there is any detail in the book that says what that is. He didn't mention repair of fire halls in one case, that was separate. He mentioned some actually working with the firemen and one working with the police. I wonder if there is any more detail on that project? MR. MacMASTER: That was The Pas band, Joe Ross was the Administrator of the program. lt was in the native education department.

Work experience, it said, with fire department, police department and working on the arena. That's what I did. Do you want some more details on what they were doing with the RCMP and what they were doing with the ... I don't have it with me but I can get that and forward it to him, if the member would like. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I don't think it's that crucial to the passing of this particular item. I'm just kind of curious as to what they would be doing in that case. I wonder if the Minister could do ub le check some specific com mun ities there.

There are a number of communities within my own constitu ency which always run into pro blems because they are not in the No rthern Affairs boun daries but th ey are basically non-tr eaty communities or Metis communities. There is The Big Eddy Me tis Settlement, The Ump erville Metis Settlement and the LGD of Grand Rapids which includes of course a large number of Metis people, basically except for those working for hydro. MR. MacMASTER: We had one from Umperville. I thought we had one from Grand Rapids but I' ll check. But we certainly had one in Ump erville, develop recreation area and seed grass, six people.

MR. McBRYDE: In that case, it seems in the other communities the community council or the town is somehow involved in the application and approval of application; in the case of Umperville and Big Eddy, if they get one next year, the Big Eddy Met is settlement, I'm wondering how that's done administratively since they are under the LGD of Consol. Is Consol involved in any way or do they administer, as a non-legal community entity some way do they administer those funds? 1345

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. MacM ASTER : The one in Um perville was advanced through the MMF regional office in your home town, The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, I was aware of the project; I wasn't aware of how it was administered. I'm just wondering then what is the general course? Is it normally the community council in a non-Treaty community? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. McBRYDE: Okay. The other question, is the extent that this program is in fact on reserve and for reserve students? I was surprised that the Minister mentioned specifically that The Pas Reserve had their own project.

I wonder then, out of the 49, how many would be on reserve and basically for Treaty Indians? MR. MacMASTER: Now there is quite a mixture between the federal program and our program; we work with them to attempt to cover as many areas as possible. I found four bands, the Big Eddy Metis settlement had a project; one more band, I think that's five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven; eleven were bands. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairperson, I hope I'm not going to get the Mi nister in trouble with his colleagues and the Premier because 11 out of the 49 projects are taking place on reserve with Treaty Indian people and the approach of the government has been to say that all programs related to Treaty In di an people should be paid for, totally the responsibility of Indian Affairs.

I think the Minister has some idea that's not always possible especially where the community is half Treaty people and half non-Treaty people living within the same community. it's just easier and simpler and more effective to have the band administered in some cases than to have the non-Treaty council administer it or perhaps the band is much larger and has a structure

whereas the other community might be fairly disorganized. My thoughts on it are that in those areas where we are not doing somet hing th at the Federal Government should be doing and it's clearly their obligation to do and that's agreed to with the Treaty Indian people, then it's all right for the Province of Manitoba to provide some type of assistance; it's going to help in the development of reserve communities. I am a bit surprised, in light of even a resolution that it will probably come up for deb ate this afternoon, Mr.

Chairman, in terms of that the Treaty Indians should be entirely the responsibility of the Federal Government; that this department is in fact involved with the reserves. As I said, I hope I don't cause the Minister any problem that he will be forced to review the program for the upcoming year to ensure that reserves don't qualify for it. I don't have any more specific questions on that particular program. We did talk under this item about the three relocation projects.

I'm assuming that the rest of the Minister's Employment Support and Counselling Service comes under this and I wonder if he could bring me up-to-date in terms of how and where their offices are and what, in fact, they are doing these days. MR. MacMASTER: There are offices established, as I think the member knows, in The Pas, Flin Flon, Thompson and Leaf and we have one person in Chur chill.

They deal with a variety of assistance: Apprenticeship, New Careers, Private Sector Youth Prog ram, Reloca tion, the Yo uth Programs, some are referred to the Selkirk plant, your Hire-a-Student Program, No rthern Summ er Educ ation Program; they also deal with the volunteers in Public Service, Northern Travel, Step-In Government. Those are generally the things that those people are doing. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(d) (2)(a) - pass - the Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, is the Item 2.(

d) the item what's left of what was sort of basically a placement program, is that still part of the function of that section? Am I on the right item in terms of when there was in fact an employment officer in Cross Lake, in Norway House and several of the commun ities? Would this have been the

section under which those people would have been and is there sti ll a placement func tion, as such , being carried out by his department under this or any other section? MR. MacMASTER: The areas that I named are where the offices are. I just named them to the member. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I heard the Minister name those offices. My question was, is this the

section where those offices would have been or should I be looking somewhere else to see if there is an additional placement function or is this it? MR. MacMASTER: This is it, Mr. Chairman. MR. McBRVDE: Okay, and within those few offices that are left - I'm not sure what titles the people would have, I think in the past they were called employment officers in the more remote community, I'm not sure what titles they would have now - would their work involve placement; would they be actually assisting people to work for Hydro, if there was any; would they be doing any placement?

Maybe I'd get more specific with the Minister with a couple of examples. If there were a contract awarded in Cross Lake would his department or any of these offices assist people to get a job with that cont ractor at Cross Lake or have any involvement in terms of talking to that contractor to see if they'll employ people at Cross Lake? MR.

MacMASTER: If there is a major contractor of some type taking place such as the road that was built into Cross Lake, our department would certainly involve thems elves in that, to attempt to assure ou rselves that the people in Cross Lake were certainl y given an opportun ity to work on that project. Yes we would involve ourselves. I should say that we work very clos ely with the Federal Government who have 11 people, I think they're called Outreach, I'm not sure what their terms are, that work in various communities and throughout communities in Northern Manitoba and we work very cl osely with them.

I think the mem ber would appreciate that that's very necessary. 1346

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. McBRVDE: Yes, on e more specific. The province has just about completed a new jail and courthouse at The Pas. My understanding is from local people that there was almost no Native people, in fact hardly any local residents employed in that project at all. I wonder if the Minister is aware of that and whether his office had any role in trying to get people into that project. I think what happened was that unless the province is pretty strong in terms of its requirement, then the contractor doesn't worry that much about it.

In this case it was a contract management agreement and it looks like it didn't work very well in terms of providing local employemnt, either to trades people or to labourers. I wonder if the Minister is aware if his office had any role in trying to place people on that job and, if they did have any role in trying to place people on that job, whether they had any luck doing so. MR. MacMAS TER: I'm not aware of the numbers of local people that were employed in that particular project. I'm sorry I just haven't got those numbers. If I can say one other thing.

I'd mentioned before that the Federal Government has 11 people, I meant they had 11 communities in which they have 28 people - I'd used the wrong numbers, I said 11 , I meant 11 commun ities; they have 28 people in 11 communities in Northern Manitoba. MR.

McBRVDE: Just for my clarification, I know the Minister is talking outside of his area here but the 28 people, are those the people that would be, for example, in The Pas they have certain people that are federal civil servants in their office and they have some people that are on a cont ract Outr each Program to the Manitoba Metis Federation at The Pas; would these 28 all be Outreach workers on contract with organizations and other groups? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, I understand they are.

That's the 28 that the feds apparently are funding in 11 different communi ties and I underst and the number of people they're funding is 28. MR. McBRVDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. In terms of this particular

section of the Minister's department, for it to work well, for the people that are working in the department to take fu ll advantage of the projects, of the work that's available in their area, requires a lot of co-operation, not only from the mining companies where the co-operation does seem to be coming from what the Minister's comments have been and I know was there in the past to a certain extent, but I believe that since there is so little happening in some of these communities that not a single job opportunity can be lost without hurting many of the commun ities.

I know that the · Federal Government, when dealing with reserves now, I mean it's very clear the project is basically a reserve project run by the reserve and they're pretty fully involved in whatever goes on so they can ensure and make some guarantee that their own people are employed in that project. I'm not sure if that applies that well because I'm just not that familiar with any new federal construction, for example, of a school or that kind of facility or a new nursing station.

But in the case of the Provincial Government it was a problem; even when we were in government when it was a clear government policy to employ local people, and in some agencies such as Hydro, in certain aspects we're not very co-operative. I would like the Minister, I would urge the Minister to be fully aware of the problem that in fact unless there is some pressure put on by other agencies, his agency isn't going to be as effective as it could be.

That is unless the Department of Public Works makes it very clear to a contractor that they're expected to hire local people on any project that goes into a community up north, then that contractor is not going to do it. His placement, the Outreach worker for Canada Manp ower or for the Federal Government, who's paid by the Federal Government, can do all he likes to try and place people there, but unless the contractor is willing to hire them and makes some effort to hire them, then I think the Minister is quite well aware that it's not going to work.

We have all kinds of stories and I'm sure the Minister has them in the past with people applying for a job and under one excuse or another being turned down for the job, people who were local residence. So I would like to urge the Minister to have his staff pretty carefully monitor that kind of situation.

I would see that as a responsibility of the Minister's staff in the field that when the jail and the courthouse were cons tructed at The Pas that somehow it could get to the Minister's attention that, in fact, there weren't local people being hired to the extent of the jobs available and that somehow their system be worked out so that could come directly to the Minister's attention so then that he could down the hall to his colleague, the Minister of Government Services, and find out what the heck's going on.

Why is there a project going on in this particular community and the contractor's bringing in outside people.

I think that is not that easy to do because you have a field worker at the field worker level and say, well gee I can't get anybody placed on that project; but then he has to go to his supervisor, who goes to his su pervisor, and by the time it gets to the Minister the project might be finished or the Minister might not be then clearly aware of the problem that's being faced. lt requires a system where it could get to the Minister quite quickly and that he could then get after his colleagues to make sure that people in the local community are hired. it's much cle arer of cou rse if it's a clear government enunciated policy that that's going to take place and then the Min ister, whoever is responsible for Manpower has no problem leaning on his colleagues to get them to go along with the policy direction and the policy initiative of government.

If it's not a clear policy then his job of persuasion is a lot more difficult to try and convince his colleagues that they should build this in or that they should make an effort to employ local people. I think it's basically a matter of (1) of the government saying that's the direction we want to move in; and (2) then the Minister being able to have a system so he knows when it isn't happening because this is his responsibility as Minister of Manpower to know when it isn't happening and try and make it happen. The example that I found very irritating at the time but it's just sort of a clear example how one

section can foul up what the next

section is doing is a simple job that took place in the community of Cormorant where the job was to landscape around the school, 1347

Thursday, 5 March 1981 as they need labourers to rake the rocks off and assist the machine to level it and then to lay sod. lt wasn't a job that there wasn't a number of local people co uldn't have do ne, co uldn't have been employed at. What happened in that case, because of a ruling by management commit tee that the Department of Public Works, who was carrying that out, was not allowed to hire anybody new.

What they had to do was bring in a crew from Brandon who had finished a similar job in the Brandon area into Cormorant, put them up in the Cormorant Lodge, which is basically a lodge that caters to Americans so I imagine that their prices are not as low as you might find in other areas and put them to work on the job. That is the kind of the situation where a mechanism should be existing within the department so that somebody could get very directly to the Min ister in saying here's what's happened.

The Mi nister could run down to the Ma nagement Comm ittee and say, you guys are ruining a whole program of employment, of helping people to get jobs in the north by that kind of a policy; get it reversed and changed around. I think eventually it was change d but not because it came to the Min ister's department or that kind of a system because it came from the opposition.

I wonder if the Minister thinks that that kind of an approach is worthwhile and whether he thinks that he'll be able to initiate and get the government to adopt (1) a policy that the priority goes to local people when ther e's a job that the Provi ncial Government is involved in, or a Crown agency is involved in, and then that there be a system within the department basically so that this department monitor and ensure that that policy is carried out so that we don't miss as many emp loyment opportunities because there are few enough, Mr . Chairperson.

There's not that many left and I don't think the figures have changed very much in some community where there's 75 percent unemployment. So one job in that community is very important and 10 job s in a government project is even more important. I wonder if the Minister would be willing to pursue that policy direction. What is he able to do in that regard now? What does he think he might be able to do in the future? MR. MacMASTER: I guess I'm in a similar position to what the member was a few years ago when he was in government where we felt, by and large, that's taken place.

I know that I wasn't in office very long where we changed around, for example, the building of winter roads in Northern Manitoba where we took it away, not without some scr eaming but we certainly took it away from contractors and I'm told the Native people in the north, Native, Metis and others that are living in the north, that they had to come in reasonably competitive and we'd give them first a crack at it and keep it that way for a period of time till they really got on their feet and knew what real prices were and if they could do the job well they could get those particular jobs.

That I think was as big an indication that I had, that I have given, that I do want northern people to get a real good fair crack at the job. Again, most of and I'm sure the member has an example or two where it didn't work - but most of the jobs \ hat I'm aware of that are going on in the north, northern people projects that are going on, northern people are getting a good fair shot at employment on them.

We think we have a pretty fair idea the things that are going on and, by and large, we think that the northern people are getting a good opportunity to work on those jobs, not all entirely, that I guess will always be the case, but generally speaking I think they're getting a reaso nably good shot at employment from the projects that are going on, particularly within their com mun ities. The Cormorant one is an interesting example and I don't remember the details of that. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson.

Maybe the Minister doesn't understand the situation as well as I thought he did; because of the way things are, a reasonably good shot probably isn't good enough. People I suppose have had a reasonably good shot, that is there was nothing preventing them, but for some reason it always turned out that most of the jobs didn't go to local people. I guess I would like to know from the Minister whether there is a clear policy of the present government that where there is a government project, that preference will be given to local people. Is that a policy or is it not a policy? MR.

MacMASTER: That's a policy that we've been following since we formed the government. Again I say you may find isolated situations where you don't feel as adequately administered. We may find that five years from now or five years past, but by and large that's the policy, that local people are to be given an opportunity to work on the projects that are taking place within their communities. MR. McBRYDE: Does the Minister see any way that enforcment or the living up to that policy could be improved? MR. MacMASTER: I supp ose, Mr. Chairman, everything can improved.

If I was to say it was running absolutely excellent, that would be incorrect. I think you continue to observe and continue to assure yourself that that policy by and large is being carried out. There are exceptions to every situation, but we think by and large that policy is being carried out. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, one of the reasons why I raise that specific example of The Pas Jail and Courthouse is, that I was able to question the Minister of Government Services and he isn't as clear in his mind as to the policy as the Minister is.

He did not give any indication that there was a policy of preference to hire local people. He said that there was a contract manager and that was an efficient way to carry it out and that's the way it would be done. So maybe the Minister wants to, since the Minister is fairly new to that portfolio, to let him know that there is such a policy so that that doesn't take place again. The other way, Mr. Chairperson, is to have some sort of mechanism to check. In some departments, it's not a problem.

Like in Northern Affairs, if they build a community hall, where the Council's involved in the decision they make sure that local people are hired as much as possible. When there's a larger project like a school or a jail and a courthouse or something like that, when the Government Services department doesn't have all that much experience in 1348

Thursday, 5 March 1981 terms of the north is involved, then they don't give that kind of emphasis to the project. I mean, they're just worrying about getting in the lowest priced contractor. But even with that, it's still possible to tell the contractor that that's an expectation you have of them and not let it just be a chance mechanism. lt almost has to be outlined within the contract, so the contractors know when they're bidding that that's an expectation that the Province of Manitoba has. I would like the Minister who's responsible for the Emplo yment Support and Counseling Services, to attempt to do that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, Commit tee will rise for Private Members' Hour. SUPPL V - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CH AIRM AN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Comm ittee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 31 of the Main Est imates, Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, Resolution No. 37, Clause 2, Consumer Affairs (

a) Salaries pass. The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday, Mr. Chairman, we were talking about food pricing and other matters and we will go back to that again at some time later in today's proceedings. The reason I'm about to change the topic is because my col league, the Member for Churchill wish es to participate in that debate and has to be in Labour Est imates for the next few minutes, and has indicated his intention to return. So I'll go on to something else and then we'll come back to that other matter when he does. I wanted to talk, Mr.

Chairman, about the question of the government's policy respect ing children's advertising. I wanted to kn ow whether the government had any position on that sub ject, whether they were doing any monitoring, whether they were privy to any public reports on the subject, and I'd like to know whether we might expect any action from the government in this very important area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. FILMON: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I missed the opening sentence as to which area the member is referring to. MR. CORRIN: The opening sentence was just to · advise, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister that we are going to continue the debate on the question of unit pricing and the universal product code, but that matter is in abeyance on request of the Member for Churchill who wants to participate, who was here yesterday throughout and doesn't want to miss any contributions because he wants to get involved in the discussion. So he'll be back in a little while, he's in Labour Estim ates and when he returns we can go back to that su bject. Having said that I presume the Minister heard the question I tendered with respect to the advertising to children.

I suggest we all plug in our earphones. I thought, Mr. Chairman, it was quite obvious that the question had to do with whether any policy was being contemplated by the government with respect to the question of children's advertising, and I asked whether the government was privy to any public reports on the subject of children's advertising, was doing anything to monitor the effects of advertising on children within the province, and whether any initiative would be taken or contemplated in this regard by the government in the forthcoming year. MR. FI LMON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't have the answer to that at the moment and in view of the fact that my Deputy is not yet here I'll have to wait until he comes. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, it's hard not to be somewhat sarcastic but if the Minister of the Crown doesn't have the answer, who does? That's I guess a bit of rhetorical question but I'l l pose it to the Minister. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, at the risk of returning in kind, perhaps the member is unaware that I've been appointed Minister for something in the range of six weeks, and that there are many many areas that may or may not come under the jurisdiction of my portfolio that I may not be totally informed about. The purpose is obviously for him to bring forward the question and I will attempt to give him the answer from within the resources in the department but if I were to ask him a question that had to do with any aspect of law, any aspect whatsoever, perhaps he could tell me what particular

section and a particular statute said right off the top of his head - being a lawyer he may have total and complete knowledge of every statute that's ever been passed in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I think that I'd better make a statement at this point, that we are now under the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment and the side conversations and debates really have no bearing on this subject, and I would ask the members to please stick to this subject. MR. CORRIN: Yes. With respect to this item, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, first of all I note that although he is new that there is continuity in government. I think it's safe to presume we all operate on the basis of caucus discipline to some extent so I presume that whether a Minister is new or whether he is old in terms of his post and position, he is familiar with the government or the government's position relative to various items - I presume these matters are always continually coming up for discussion and debate. Sec ond ly, Mr.

Chairman, I would note that the some two seats to the Honourable Minister's right, the former Minister is seated, I presume that if he wishes he could have recourse to the Minister to ask what policy in the department is, the former Minister what policy was and is. If that's unsatisfactory there is certainly continuity with respect to the administrative staff and the senior staff are present before the Minister - perhaps he could consult with one of those people and give us some idea of whether the government is doing anything in that particular respect. 1349

Thursday, 5 March 1981 MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, that's exactly what I propose to do for the member. When I suggested that, that the information could be obtained when members of my department arrive, he suggested that I was to have known all of these things. I have now had an opportunity to do that and I can say that our department is not doing any thing currently with respect to children's advertising, and that's the answer to his question. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I suppose that answer begs another question and that is why the department has chosen not to become involved in this particular public policy issue. it's one that is quite topical amongst consumer associations, among people who are involved in lobb y groups and organizations concerned with consumer affairs. I would like to know why the Government of Manitoba has not evinced a similar desire to deal with this very important matter and why it rates such low priority. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I think the answer is rather simple. lt has never been presented as a public policy issue in Manitoba that I am aware of in this House. Of course I've only been here for about 16 months but I don't recall from my readings or my following of the events in the Legislature that it has been raised as a public policy issue in this House. If it had been then I'm sure it would have been dealt with and our department would have looked into it and developed a position on it, but if the mem ber would like to present a position on it that we can deal with we'll be more than happy to have it. MR.

CORRIN: I certainly accept the invitation of my honourable friend, Mr. Chairman, because I think it is a very important matter and one that should be addressed by government. Mr. Chairman, I think we can all agree that children are extremely susceptible and vulnerable to media advertising and commun ication. I think we can also agree that children, particularly of tender age, receive a rather distorted impression of the consumer world - if I could put it that way - through various advertising approaches put forward th rough the media and particularly television.

I feel that, and I dare say that probably my concern is shared by some in the House, that there is reason now for governments to take some sort of action to cope with this particular problem. I'm basing this on my own observations and on material I've read, I think that there is reason to believe that children, and their parents as the actual consumers of products, are being su bjected to exploitation tactics by retailers, manufacturers and advertisers of products. There are other lines of argument.

I' ve heard the argument made and I think it has some substance that a lot of this advertising also adds to the decay of the moral fibre of our people in the sense that children are taught to be materialistic and greedy.

I'm not sure whether that is true, but I can tell you, being a representative from a working-class riding - this I've had discussions with parents about - that it is most difficult and I guess demoralizing for people who don't have a lot of disposable income to be confronted with exaggera ted needs put forward by their childr en, which are essentially created by advertising techniques and methods that are desig ned to exploit the innocence and the naivety of young minds. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be accused, I don't want to stand accused of making a self-serving argument.

There is evidence and I want to refer to a report th at was prepared by the Federal Trade Commission in the United States who has done an extensive amount of research into this subject. The Federal Tr ade Commission did considerable investigation of the General Foods cereal operation. They've been doing that for the years since 1972.

They've been investigating the "big four" as it were of the cereal industry and in having established that General Foods and their so-called competitors spent a disproportionately high percentage of their total expen ditur es on adver tising, I think that - (In terjection)- yes, one-third. They established that one-third of the overcharge for most processed foods in this area was due to excessive advertising. They revealed something called "Children's Copy Policy for 19 69". This was something that through their subp oena powers they were able to obtain from the General Foods' administration.

This document was prepared by the admin istration and it was basically a targeting strategy for penetrating the children's markets with respect to cereal products. Here's some th ing and we 're talkin g about a product called "Sugar Bear" and we're talking about a caricature, a fictitious figure, called "Sugar Bear" who appears on television advertisements for this company.

Here is what the company said "Sugar Bear" was going to do and I quote, his mission as it were: "The primary copy point in the advertising will convince kids that "Sugar Bear" eats super Sugar Crisps to make him powerful, thereby implying that if kids eat the product they will be provided with extra energy. lt is our intent that children will believe that eating super Sugar Crisps will now make them strong and that it tastes good." Well, Sugar Crisps unfortunately in the same study came off rather poorly in terms of its position in the spectrum of children's cereals and cereals generally. lt was found not to be a very nutritious product.

I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, and it was a findin g of the Federal Trade Commission in the United States that this sort of approach is indeed quite exploited. I think, Mr. Chairman, that one can suggest that it's certainly not the sort of approach that one normally associates with high eth ical standards in the marketplace, nor is it the sort of approach that's associated with the protection of consumer interests. So I say, Mr.

Chairman, that I think that there's good reason for governments everywhere in pursuit of the protection of public interest to look to this sort of advertising and decide what sort of policy it's going to implement. There have been other su rveys done and I think that most of the surveys have been done with respect to toy advertising and if you have children, Mr. Chairman, or any members who either have young children or have had young children will know and will realize that children are particularly susceptible to this sort of advertising. They are very vulnerable to it.

I guess it's every child's wish to have playthings and they are easily mislead in terms of what they should have and when they should have it, particularly significant that this is equally the case whether a child is poor, middle class or from a wealthy background. Again, tangentially I want to reinforce I think the fact that a lot of this advertising is particularly 1350

Thursday, 5 March 1981 perverse because it's disseminated to children of "lower class backround" whose parents simply can't afford to provide them a lot of these sorts of conspicuous consumer items such as toys anyway. So what it does is it distorts these kids' perception of society in that it dangles before them t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-31a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 31a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5bbe1de454c9082151ddf7f28478a3467a0ec4aa

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